January 8, 2025 • 41 mins
In the early hours of December 4, 2024, UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was fatally shot in New York City as he walked toward the annual investor's meeting of his parent company, UnitedHealth Group. US law enforcement embarked on a massive manhunt. Several days after the murder, authorities in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested 26-year-old Luigi Mangione on suspicion of committing the murder. In the first part of this multi-part episode, Ben, Matt and Noel explore what happened, what evidence may or may not exist, and, perhaps most importantly: how this single event exposed a deep divide between the general public, the media, and the power structure of American society overall.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
My name is Matt, my name is no. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan,
the Tennessee pal Fake and most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
This may be one of the last times we record
in twenty twenty four. You guys, can you believe it?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yay?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Can you believe how far we've come? How far we've fallen?
Or risen? I can believe depending on where you stand.
So happy New Year, folks. We are recording on let's
see December twentieth. If you are hearing this episode the
day it publishes, you have made it to twenty twenty five,
and we hope we have too. I think we probably
will have. You know, knock on wood and can you
(01:09):
hear that that's real wood? That's a solid No, it's
more of a compositemy. We paid extra. So this evening
we are recording in person in our studios and we're
exploring a conspiracy that is ongoing. We will not have
all the answers, but as you know, whether or not
you live in the United States, a young man named
Luigi Mangioni has been recently arrested on the suspicion of
(01:33):
murdering a United Healthcare CEO named Brian Thompson. And in
the aftermath of the events, we've started to witness this
narrative war, you know, on multiple fronts. How would you
guys characterize that.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Well, I mean he's sort of been almost like elevated
as this Robin Hood esque sort of freedom fighter friend
of the people, you know, taking out the big bads
at the corporations and all that, which I think is
a little bit of a snow more.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But it's interesting to see the discourse.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I would just say it has thrown into the spotlight
the situation that all of us in the United States,
all citizens in the United States, find themselves in where
there's mandated private healthcare for profit, and it's just highlighting
all of that. While at the same time, as you said,
the Robin Hood thing is very real and it is
kind of overwhelming to see the reaction of most of
(02:26):
the public coming out positively about someone being murdered.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Versus media empire. So I was talking to our pal
Medna Gandhi about this versus media empires, who seem to
be pushing for a very different narrative from the one
the public champions. So now we have to ask what
exactly happened? Will dive in after a word from our sponsors.
(02:57):
Here are the facts, all right, let's start with the victim. Well,
let's start with the guy who got shot. As we'll
see to your earlier point, Matt, there are arguably many
victims in this story. Brian Robert Thompson. He's the CEO,
or was the CEO of United health Care, that is,
the insurance arm of a larger company, a parent group
(03:18):
called United Health Group. They are very confusing, somewhat bland names.
He's had this position since twenty twenty one, and as
executives go, he's pretty young in the game. He's fifty
years old, so by all accounts, he seems set to
continue his career despite what we'll learn is a lot
of controversy.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, but he's been at the company for twenty years
and he had run like the medicare arm of it
for quite a while, so you know, it's he was
very experienced in what he did. I want to just
quickly put something here. This is what I didn't understand,
and we've encountered this actually here guys, United Healthcare has
that insurance arm you're talking about, right, or the health
(04:00):
group Unite Healthcare. And then the other thing is the
optim Yes, Optum, so that is something we've encountered specifically
with prescriptions, but they do all kinds of other stuff.
And I just quickly wanted to read this because I
didn't know anything about them. Sure, if you go on
their website and you go under business, it says Optum
delivers care aided by technology and data, empowering people, partners
(04:24):
and providers with the guidance and tools they need to
achieve better health. But the important thing there is technology
and data.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Data. Yeah, yeah, leveraging data. It's something that we've talked
about in years past, the idea of weaponizing personal information
against consumer, which can't really happen in a lot of
state supported healthcare programs, but can definitely happen in privatized,
profit driven programs. And this is something that Brian Thompson
(04:53):
also comes under fire for in the events leading up
to earlier this December. I think for a lot of people,
when you hear the name United Health Group, you think
you kind of glaze over, you tune out. You know,
who cares? That is such a boring name. Right, it's
not doing anything for Meuse it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Up a little unless you're an investor. Right.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
If you're an investor, then you're also looking at their
stock and you're looking at their revenue, which grows year
over year. They're so big, they're a leviathan. They're extremely profitable,
I would say, as profitable as they are unpopular. In
twenty twenty three alone, you guys, their revenue grew forty
seven point five billion dollars. That's not the total, that's
(05:41):
how much it grew.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Well, And you know, that's the thing with privatizing healthcare,
because then it starts to fit into that rubric of
you know, forever growth being kind of the name of
the game. And it's not like people's health needs change.
So where does that growth come from?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well to we're going to get into full numbers here,
but according to their third quarter results that they reported
in mid October of this year, that growth came to
the tune of two point four million new users or
consumers that are served by United.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Health because it's a product, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And just in that third quarter of this year in October,
they had revenues of one hundred point eight billion dollars
and they grew eight point five billions, So that's a
that's a quarter of their growth for that year, for
this year plus if you're looking at twenty twenty three
numbers that we were just talking about, it's mind blowing.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And this would be a company that would be available
to just average you know, maybe self employed people who
would want to get healthcare through the market to.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Invest in or wait, you mean, could somebody just on
their own without a company, right, do something like that.
That's a good question. We know that a lot of
their profit is driven by making deals with companies overall,
you know, sort of like how some car manufacturers make
a lot of their sales through fleet vehicles. Right. So
(07:08):
they they're just so huge there, I think we get
to the conversation of too big to fail or too
big to exist in the case of healthcare. For twenty
twenty three, their revenue was three hundred and seventy one
point six billion dollars. By metric. They're huge. That's how
(07:30):
is that even a real number?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And that's that's revenue. That's just the revenue based on
serving people healthcare, and that's their.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Revenue denying clay investing premiums right, because every premium you
don't have to pay back on is some money you
can play with in investments, dude.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
And there aren't any regulations around that. I mean, shouldn't
that money be sitting inro or something a.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Little of regulations to protect private insurance companies.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But that's not what it's about. Going back to that earnings,
the third quarter earnings of twenty twenty four, they say
third quarter earnings of six dollars and fifty one cents
per share, which includes previous cyber attack impacts that they
had on the bottom line, which was a big deal
for United Healthcare in the recent past. But just think
about what that means. A growth of six dollars six
(08:26):
and a half dollars right per share. So if you
are just a person that is investing in the corporation
and maybe you're not even using their services at all,
you are making bank.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Right as long as the system continues according to the
status quo. This is where we get back to Thompson,
there's something a bit cinematic. All right. So it's early December,
less than a month ago as we record, and Thompson
is in New York City. It's December fourth, twenty twenty four.
He's planning to attend an annual investors meeting or conference
(09:00):
for the parent company, United health Group. We don't know
how the meeting would have gone, but we already know
there was a lot of tension because, first off, there's
so much money on the line. We should mention United
health Group is the world's largest healthcare company by revenue,
and just overall, if you looked at all the big
companies in the world by revenue, it's in the top ten.
(09:22):
It's the world's ninth largest company. Ever.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, and can we just let's just reiterate there of
what you just said, Ben, This was an investor conference.
This was not a how do we make United Healthcare
services better? This was how do we make more money
for you investors.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
This was not a public policy meeting. Right. Yeah, it's
nuts because the company has already faced in step with
its rise and profitability, it's faced regular strident criticism, especially
the insurance arm run by Thompson. They were accused of
unfairly rejecting claims and read statements about this. He calls
(10:02):
it value based care. That's what they're getting into. It's
a tricky bit of terminology there. They were also we
were talking about this off air, they were accused of
using AI to wholesale reject claims.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well, yeah, AI that was accused of being so faulty,
and they were aware of its faultiness that it would
it was denying like between eighty and ninety percent of
all claims, so then human beings had to go back in,
which was just a way to delay the process of
paying people.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, and the problem there too is, like I mean,
so many.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
People who do have are lucky enough to have health
care through their employer. Oftentimes those premiums are a decent
chunk of their check. And then if you get denied
a claim, the costs of fighting that or even the
complications of appealing that are sometimes so daunting that you
just eat it, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Delayed, delay, well, you delay your.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Needs, you know, unless it's some sort of absolute emergency.
I'm sure that they bank on that happening.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Of course, And if it's your health, there's also a
there's also very much a ticking clock. So yeah, even
if you had the money to fight in court, depending
on your condition, you may no longer be upon this
mortal plane. Ruling goes in your favor.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Think about how adversely that affects any individual's health when
they're going through a health issue like that, then they're
faced with that, as you said, daunting situation where you
are now stressing out like fully because of this that
you're not Oh, you're already stressing out because you're sick.
Something's wrong. Now you're like, how what am I gonna do?
What's my family gonna do? My descendants, what are they
(11:37):
going to do when I have to pay tens of
thousands of dollars?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Right? What's going to be left for them? As well?
You know, it goes into quality of life. To correct
or I guess, clarify the AI stuff. Let's go to Snopes.
They have a great breakdown on this, which is not
I think as vulnerable to the narrative war as a
lot of other media places are proving to be. So.
(12:03):
There was a lawsuit against United Healthcare and United Health
Group that also names Navvy Health in avi health, not
related to Avatar I think NAVI Health developed an AI
tool called NH Predict, and it is true that United
Health did deploy AI to evaluate claims, but we still
(12:25):
don't know to what extent the technology informed these decisions.
And I don't know if you can hear the italics
in the voice there, folks, but yes, a lot of
the yes.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That is a really good point, though, Ben, because everything
I saw about the AI stuff was from a lawsuit.
So those are like allegations, right.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
We do have to say their allegations.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So it's in my head it's already kind of solidified,
just because I've read it so many times now at
this point that there are these problems, but it is allegations,
the same way everything that's been said about Luigi are allegations.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
At this point, he is technically a person of interest
in custody.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Hey, hold up, guys, let's take a quick pause here,
have a word from our sponsor, and then jump right
back into this conversation about Luigi Manngiani.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Ed.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We're back.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Now. You might wonder where Luigi gets into the story here.
Let's set this up a little further. You see, Thompson
was also a personal target for critics as a human being, civilians,
and institutions. He had received multiple death threats related to
the denial of claims. People who may be out of
terminal condition and were threatening him because they thought he
(13:45):
was gilling them, or survivors who had lost a family
member and said, you know, if you take the life
of one of my loved ones, then your life should
also be forfeit. Now we're not agreeing with this, We're
now letting you know, he said. And it's all so
not to sound too cold, it's not just a point
made by individuals in the public, but institutions are also
(14:09):
haranguing Thompson in this company. Maybe we go to the
American Hospital Association, who back in twenty twenty one when
this guy became the CEO, they were already talking about
how terrible they thought his ideas were.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Oh, and this is in relation to non critical that's
in quotes visits to the er, right.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, yeah, this is where we get to value based care,
which is just such a the omami of that, the
juicy evil of that phrase. What did the American Hospital
Association say?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Patients are not medical experts and should not be expected
to self diagnose during what they believe is a medical emergency,
threatening patients with a financial penalty for making the wrong
decision could have a chilling effect on seeking emergency care.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Scary stuff when you think about it. Yeah, it's kind
of what I was.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I mean, it's just like, you know, all of the chaos,
and you know, stress of just looking into it or
even like figuring out what to do can just cause
you to throw your hands up and say, you know what,
I'm just not even gonna deal with this.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Now. You have a pain in your chest, kick the right.
Sometimes the pain's there, sometimes it goes away. Should I
go to a doctor? Well, I know, if I go
and I make the wrong bet and it's just you know, heartburn,
then insurance might not pay for it.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah, I mean, even we who have insurance have those
thoughts plenty where it's like, is this something that's going
to cause my premiums to go up? Should I just
kind of deal with it and suffer in silence?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Can I afford to get an ambulance out here?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh? Yeah? Or do I take the uber? Well?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, exactly. And either way, once I get there, they're
taking care of me. That's in quotations as well. At
the hospital, and they are the staff there is going
to take care of you and do what they have
to do, but who knows what care is going to
go into it and how much the care is going
to cost, And can you make those rational decisions or
even your loved one who's there on your behalf making
those decisions.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, exactly. And then you know, on the dark side
of it, if you gamble wrong and you say I'm
not going to go to the er, sometimes this chest
pain goes away and you die. Yeah, you know. It's
Here's the way I was trying to think of a
good way to explain this. I would say, if you're
not familiar with privatized insurance, one way to think of
it is imagine a pizza company. Imagine you want to
(16:30):
buy a pizza. So in the world of privatized insurance,
the business model is you go to this store, you
apply to see whether or not you can buy a pizza,
and then you pay them every month, and if you
ever want a pizza, they will tell you what kind
you can get, where you can go, and afterwards they'll
(16:51):
tell you how much you pay for it. Good God,
I mean, that's how you know it's pizza insurance.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You'll negotiate with how much you have to pay uh
before will help you?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to buy two hundred
and fifty dollars worth of pizza, and then they might
pay for some of it. Maybe it's weird you're paying
to pay for stuff would be one of the arguments.
We're trying to be fair here. There was a lot
of disturbing contexts this investor conference. What would have happened
we will never know because Thompson did not make it
(17:23):
to that meeting. This is where we get to December fourth,
twenty twenty four. It's early in the morning, six forty
five local time or so. He is leaving the Marriott
hotel that he's staying at. It's across the street from
the New York Hilton in Midtown. This is where the
meeting was gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
At eight o'clock in the morning, so it's all it's about.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
To happen, right, He's getting coffee, basically probably taking his
morning constitutional. He's walking along West fifty fourth Street toward
that Hilton. He gets shot from behind a point blank
range we call maybe about six feet yeah, and there's
the person who is on camera shooting him on CCTV
is is masked, They're wearing a hoodie, they have a backpack,
(18:04):
They're wielding a pistol that later becomes a subject of
a lot of speculation scrutiny. He is shot in the
caf and in the back. He's transported to Mount Sinnott.
He's transported to the local hospital and he's pronounced dead
shortly thereafter, at seven to twelve am. And I'm going
(18:25):
to be honest. One thing that offended a lot of
the public as this case continued is that there are
a lot of homicides in New York and they don't
all get the same level of investigation. Is that fair
to say?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Absolutely, especially shooting deaths in a large city center like that.
And you know, not just New York, any city in
the world. There are homicides that occur on a very
regular basis. And yeah, and it's just kind of okay,
there's an investigation, it's not a big deal. But this
guy was very prominent at a very prominent thing in
a very prominent city. I understand the argument of why
(19:00):
it's bigger news, right, sure, but it is just strange
to know that all of our attention gets focused on
this guy because he is in some ways, in some
very real ways, responsible for billions of dollars of money
that flows through our economy.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
And arguably, according to the critics, hundreds of thousands, if
not millions, of deaths yep, albeit indirectly. So the authorities
react quickly. There's an intensive man hunt, and we were
all texting with each other talking off air about this.
Following the story, public officials on both sides of the
(19:38):
all sides of the political spectrum, they expressed condolences for Thompson,
his family, and his friends, and there was a lot
of initial speculation about the kind of gun used and
how this guy took an e bike later found to
be in Central Park, how did he escape you know
what I mean?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It was one of those city bikes right like and
drop off at another little hub.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's kind of crazy. I think I may have mentioned this.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
We were talking about this recently, but I was actually
in New York when this happened. Yeah, I was at
eating at this deli and there was this reporter kind
of snooping around and he was talking to this guy
who was a security guard or like a concierge or
like a baggage guy at a bell hop type guy
at the Hilton, and.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I had no idea what was going on.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I'd seen it in the elevator for our building, our
offices that are right down there in that area, and
I didn't even know what was in New York. I
just saw the headline. And I was just really busy
that day and I was grabbing a quick bite and
I heard this reporter talking, this guy asking about I
wonder if if there was anything on the security cameras,
and I was like, gosh, I.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wonder what's going on.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Maybe they were like shooting a movie here and there
was a celebrity sighting. I felt like such a dumb
ass when I realized this was literally happening right under
my nose.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Wow, there were other people when we come to find
who were nearby, Yeah, witness the shooting in person. The assailant,
whomver they made, we have to legally say, chose not
to attack those people. This was clearly a premeditated operation,
specifically against Brian Thompson for one reason or another. Right,
(21:13):
everybody initially assumed it was because of his profession, right,
and the assailant. We talked about this just amid the
three of us, the assailant fired three times with what
appeared to be a suppressed nine millimeter struck Thompson the
back the right calf, but after each shot he had
to manually cycle the gun. So for the three shots
(21:35):
he took, there were three unexploded cartridges that also popped out,
and he did not hesitate when he did it. He
didn't look surprised at the malfunction.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So, Okay, I want to talk about this because I'm
I'm unsure of the exact details, and I don't know
if we're going to get those until the court starts
going through, right, But I was talking I had a
conversation with my neighbor about that, and he was talking
about specific types of guns, like suppressed guns that are
specifically for stealth purposes that he had encountered in the
(22:07):
military before. And it's the kind that you have to
cycle every time. It's not it doesn't have that automatic
the semi automatic functionality where it racks back. You have
to like tap and racket every time. Yeah, So I
was just wondering if you guys had seen anything, if
that's the type of weapon he had, or if it
was a semi automatic that was malfunctioning. That he had
(22:27):
to rack.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Because originally it was reported that he was the gun
had jammed, right, which would mean you know, it's a
malfunctioning semi auto.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well that's what it looks like on the buzz video, right.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, well exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
But then we find that the cartridges that were at
the crime scene may well have been intended to have
been ejected and left there, you know, to send a message.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It certainly looks like to literally.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Send a message. Deny, defend, and depose. These are the
words written on the casings and they are similar to
a phrase called delay, deny, defend. And this is the
way that some attorneys and public rights advocates have described
privatized insurances strategy that we just discussed, denying services and payment.
(23:18):
It's also the title of a book published in twenty ten,
which is a great read. It's highly critical of the
insurance industry. And as we also discussed, we talked about
this with each other a lot off air. That book
is again a bestseller, correct.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It will you jumped up immediately? It was number two
when we talked about this on Strange News on the
Amazon nonfiction list.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
And this is all happening at once. There's this wide
scale search. There's a focus of resources that honestly don't
see in a lot of other homicides, and authorities across
the city, that across the region, then across the land
entire are scour every possible lead they can identify, and
(24:04):
they're trying to find and arrest the shooter based on
this footage. We also see footage emerging of him at
a hostel, which goes viral. We also see collections of
different pieces of circumstantial evidence saying, whomever this was, we
think they did the following blah blah blah. Still very
(24:25):
fog of war. But they find stuff like a water
bottle and a candy wrapper and a phone.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, there's all kinds of interesting stuff. There's a several
places online that give like a timeline of events where
it's trying to track whoever the killer was via what
came out early. So this was I think the fifteenth
of the seventeenth. I was seeing, especially on the seventeenth,
seeing detailed lists of like where the suspect moved and
(24:56):
like where they encountered things and could have left little.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Breadcrumbs bus originating from Atlanta. But you don't that doesn't
mean the suspect hopped on in Atlanta because buses are
kind of sketchy.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Yeah, I mean the more you but the more you
kind of put these pieces together, the more it really
reminds me of like John Doe and seven, you know,
like wanting to be caught, or like the Riddler and
the Batman kind.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Of like I just it just feels that way.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And I mean, you know, and and stuff like that
is also what leads to this kind of maybe not lionization,
but this glorification of this genius kind of you know,
freedom fighter type mentality behind the way people are treating
Luigi Mangioni as this larger than life kind of character.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Like a full keyro Right. And that is a powerful narrative.
It also is perhaps a simplistic narrative. I'm pointing at
Jonathan Strickland as he walks by, look at that leather jacket,
and what a smoke show that guy. Police said they
believe they found the shooter's backpack a few days later,
(26:07):
on December sixth, and adding to this idea or this
image of this anti hero super character of some sort,
the backpack has a Tommy Hill figure jacket and apparently
monopoly money yeah. Again, as to that narrative, it's about
(26:27):
sending you. This about sending you.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh guys, I can hear the ads coming. Let's get
to those and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And we have returned. The story continues and it just
gets stranger.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
You guys. There are journals that we will have to
get into at some point. But again, some of it's
kind of dangerous to even talk about right now because
it's unknown how much it's actually connected to the case
and how much it is a human being's thoughts on
something that's kind of messed up, right, like a situation
that we've been describing this whole episode that is messed up,
(27:09):
that we all are aware of is messed up, but
then somebody writing about it, it's just then it appears
to plot sending that message.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Right, And that's the thing too. I think we're doing
our level best to be careful with how we portray
or how we frame these things. But you're absolutely right again,
every piece here constructs a narrative or an argument for
a narrative. The NYPD offers a reward. They say, look,
if you give us information about this this assailant that
(27:38):
we see on camera, then you can get up to
ten thousand dollars. The next day they release those images
we mentioned this what goes viral? Two stills show the
suspect's face without the mask, and one of them is
him tossing an insuscient Devil may Care smile as at assistant. Yeah,
what a good looking fellow. And I like Jake jillanall.
(27:59):
He does look like Jake jill at all.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
And that's another aspect of the narrative that I think
is so interesting. You guys, just what a smoke show
this Luigi Mangioni is. And it's almost like insulting, to
be honest, and it really does. I mean not to
get too in the weeds about it, but a lot
of this glorification, it does seem to really kind of
highlight how vain and sort of surface level and kind
(28:26):
of frivolous American pop culture sort of has become.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
One hundred percent, especially with social media. I mean, to
your point, I remember multiple times where some mugshot went viral,
sometimes so I had done it, committed a horrible crime, No, yeah,
the guy with all the face statue, Yes, it's horrible rapist,
murderer and the most widely propagated social media statements or
stuff like I can fix him, I'd hit it.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, you know, well, it does remind me. I'll just
put this out where monster BTK is happening. We've interviewed
a couple of psychologists who were related to that case.
One of them, Catherine Ramslin, makes a very distinct point
about how the media was disappointed when the person who
(29:14):
was BTK was revealed because he was not a Ted Bundee.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Like character exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And people build up this thing in their mind, of
this mystique.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
All that's what it is, is what it is. That's
the other question too. We'll get to which hinges on Luigi,
because I would argue, and I think we're all on
board with this, there is a larger context at play,
whatever side you fall on. This is in many ways
a damning condemnation of current society and what we prioritize
(29:47):
and what we think about well.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And yeah, and also how we're feeling underneath the surface
of all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And the conversation around the fed up healthcare system.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Is absolutely valid, but the bigger conversation is more about
it's almost like the memification of this guy, and it's
kind of become this absurdist sort of joke as opposed
to a real conversation.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
I don't know, it just makes me because it's an
absolutely good point, and they still haven't at this point
in the timeline, they still haven't identified this guy. But
the police are getting are already, you know, deeply involved.
The FEDS come in as well, which doesn't happen all
the time. The US law apparatus, It's just true, it
has a lot of toys it can deploy in any
(30:36):
given situation or investigation. The thing is, they don't get
pulled out all the time, candidly, not for most murders,
not for a lot of violent crimes. That's why every
that's why so many states at least have this absolute,
just profane amount of sexual assault kits that are on
back law right haven't been checked for years well, and
(30:57):
not to get.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Too too political about it, but like you know, I
do think there's an interesting disparity between the way Luigi
Mangioni is being treated versus the way like school shooters
are treated, Like Mangioni is being you know, by the
powers that be, not the people, of course, couched and
raised up as this terrorist, this act of absolute aggression
(31:19):
towards our our livelihoods, our system, you know, the status quo.
And yet school shootings, you forget the guy's name a
week later, you know, because it just we move on
and it's apparently an unsolvable problem. And yet one CEO
(31:39):
millionaire gets killed and everyone's freaking out.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's a really interesting thing because we're there's been a
narrative that we need to not even say the names of.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Like school shooters, right, to.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Not glorify any of that stuff. But then right now,
I mean, every news outlet has pictures of this guy,
his name everywhere, all of this stuff going on.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah, and this is part of that narrative. War. Members
of the public take the social media very quickly, you know,
and they point out, initially before the suspects identified, they
point out the discrepancy in police activity, and they say, hey,
did this one guy somehow what makes him matter more
than another innocent person who got shot? Stuff got so
(32:26):
nasty so quickly. There appeared and still appears to be
a huge difference between the overall public opinion and what
the mass media wants to say. I'm thinking, in particular,
some real I'll say it kish op eds who are
arguing that Brian Thompson is the real working class hero. Oof. Okay,
it's just not the time for that kind of time.
(32:46):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
And I don't think any of us are saying, go Luigi,
You're doing God's work, because we've also talked about like,
the death of one CEO does not change the nature
of an entire industry of privatized healthcare, and it's just
not going to.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But it does potentially give that gift of fear that
we're talking about and de Becker to anyone that's on
that level that is making those decisions that have a
mass effect on human beings and their welfare. I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Not showing effects perhaps well, or at.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Least a recognition that, oh, I'm not untouchable even though
I'm making all these decisions based on profits. Maybe I
just need to think more about the consequences of.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Now something in the wind. It was my understanding that
almost immediately after this took place, security details around other
CEOs at that level increased significant.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
And New York, the State of New York, is currently
evaluating a possible call in line just for CEOs who
feel threatened. Look, we're talking about all this stuff at once, individually,
in groups, sometimes on our show. And on December ninth,
five days after the murder, authorities visited mcdondos in Altoona, Pennsylvania,
where they arrest a twenty six year old man named
(34:05):
Luigi Mangioni. He is later charged with the murder of Thompson,
along with what appears to be an increasing number of charges,
both in Pennsylvania and in New York. Initially, he faced
eleven charges, including one of the more interesting ones, first
degree murder with terrorist intent, murder in the furtherance of
(34:27):
an act of terrorism as defined by the Anti Terrorism Act.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
I can see that though, you can see what why
they would throw the book at him in that.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
We can see that. Yeah, because he's not trying to
terrorize the public. He's trying to terrorize industry. Yeah, which
are is a part of the public.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
They're trying to guy fox him.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
That's it. That's it. He also received we'll just give
you the list in case murder in the first degree
doesn't stick. He's also charged with murder in the second degree,
two different counts of it, criminal possession of a weapon,
a couple of different times, stalking using a weapon equipped
with a silencer. These are the facts as they stand today.
(35:08):
We haven't even got to Here's where it gets crazy
because the deeper we have been digging and you as well,
we imagine, the more strange details and rappid holes emerge.
What happened here, what's going to happen next? What does
it mean for the future. These are questions we are
going to answer in another episode because we took a
(35:28):
pause and we've been doing we've been diving into some
two parters. We hope you enjoy them as much as
we do. But given that this is an emergent, ongoing event,
we're gonna pause and we'll come back with more details,
you know, like trying to find an unbiased jury member.
(35:49):
Oh Man.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Ben said that when we were taking a break, and
Matt and I both just exclaimed like, oh my god,
it didn't even occur to me, And yeah, I think
taking a little where you know, again, this is the
last recording we're doing before the holidays, and I think
more information will trickle out while we're taking that break
that will all be taking him. But can I just add, yeah,
I just you know, you mentioned where the charges were
coming from. One of the most recent stories is that
(36:12):
he denied or he I guess waved extradition, waved extradition,
which means they could take him from Pennsylvan, Takehi from.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Pennsylvania back to New York.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
But man, to your point, that purp walk shot is
the hardest image of the year.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
It's egregious too. It is doesn't even makes sense. It's
a bigger purple walk. Can you describe it? Yeah? Sure,
it's a bigger purp walk than you would see for
people like Timothy McVeigh.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Wait, I didn't even see this. Let's describe it in
full because I don't know what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
So you can see a small army of people walk
purp walking him from a small plane that flew into
New York. And the Mayor is there, The Mayor of
New York is there. There are multiple armed guards. There
was a smaller purp walk for the Unibomber WI And
(37:03):
by the way, Luigi Mangioni does have on good Reads
a review of the Unibomber's manifesto.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
And it's so stark too, because he's wearing that bright
orange Department of Corrections jumpsuit. Got the lock up on
the waist, got the lock up on the waist and
the wrists by the water. It is just and there's
an image of particular of like a front you know shot,
and it's just like the memes right themselves. It looks
like a gangster rap album cover.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, that's Christopher Nolan.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It's unbelieved comparison.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That is fascinating because we didn't even talk today about
the tipster and all of the blowback of the McDonald's.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
McDonald's review bomb exactly, we have so much McDonald's alatuna
no snitches here.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I'd also like to share, guys, just for us a
photograph that I saw in a McDonald's that also went
viral after these events.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
See something, say something, Oh Donald McDonald is the master snitch.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, the master of whispers. Not age well, and I'm
sure their attentions were good, but that comes up in
the review bombs. We haven't gotten to the fraternity. Emangio
was part of this family.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
It's gonna be a great suit second part. But also
just to add, I believe the person that was the
tipster didn't call the right number and didn't get the money.
They didn't get the rewards because they just called the
regular old police instead of like the call and.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
The tip line. Right, And this is where we are
going to leave it for now, folks. We want to
hear your thoughts. Just with the facts as we've laid out,
we've endeavored to be to be fair, not to editorialize
too much, while also representing the viewpoints that we are
encountering and you are encountering in the public sphere. So
(38:53):
let us know your thoughts. We hope the end of
the year finds you well. We will be back very soon.
We'd love your help with part two or possibly part
three of this ongoing case. In the meantime, tell us
what's on your mind. We try to be easy to
find online. That's right.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
You can find us on the internet all over your
social media platforms of choice at the handle conspiracy Stuff,
where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Here's where it gets crazy. You got some hot tips.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
For us from McDonald's and alatuna, and you could communicate
that with us and all of your fellow conspiracy realists
right there in that group. We're also Conspiracy Stuff on
x fka, Twitter as well as YouTuber. We have video
content color for your perusing enjoyments on Instagram and TikTok. However,
gosh new Year for TikTok.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Guys. For now our nektalk. We are conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That's right. We also have a phone number. Use your
phone in mouth to reach us by calling one eight
three three st d w y t K when you
call in. We didn't even we didn't even get into
privately manufactured firearms, which is a.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Post topic than guys, we have an episode on that.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, so call in with information on that. Anything you
want us to talk about in the next episode, call
us and let us know when you do. Call and
give yourself a cool nickname, and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
If you've got more to say, or you've got links,
get anything like that. Just for any reason you want
to reach us in a different way, send us a
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet to unafraid. Sometimes the
void rights back lay out your opinion of the narrative war.
Are you one of the people who still insists that
Mangioni was a stitch up job? They're out there and
we want to hear reasoning why if you believe so?
(40:41):
What does this tell us about society overall? Perhaps most importantly,
what do you think is going to happen next? Or
just give us a suggestion for a brand new episode
you think your fellow conspiracy realist will enjoy. We're out
here in the dark. Join us at conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
My name is Matt, my name is no. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan,
the Tennessee pal Fake and most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
This may be one of the last times we record
in twenty twenty four. You guys, can you believe it?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yay?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Can you believe how far we've come? How far we've fallen?
Or risen? I can believe depending on where you stand.
So happy New Year, folks. We are recording on let's
see December twentieth. If you are hearing this episode the
day it publishes, you have made it to twenty twenty five,
and we hope we have too. I think we probably
will have. You know, knock on wood and can you
(01:09):
hear that that's real wood? That's a solid No, it's
more of a compositemy. We paid extra. So this evening
we are recording in person in our studios and we're
exploring a conspiracy that is ongoing. We will not have
all the answers, but as you know, whether or not
you live in the United States, a young man named
Luigi Mangioni has been recently arrested on the suspicion of
(01:33):
murdering a United Healthcare CEO named Brian Thompson. And in
the aftermath of the events, we've started to witness this
narrative war, you know, on multiple fronts. How would you
guys characterize that.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Well, I mean he's sort of been almost like elevated
as this Robin Hood esque sort of freedom fighter friend
of the people, you know, taking out the big bads
at the corporations and all that, which I think is
a little bit of a snow more.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But it's interesting to see the discourse.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I would just say it has thrown into the spotlight
the situation that all of us in the United States,
all citizens in the United States, find themselves in where
there's mandated private healthcare for profit, and it's just highlighting
all of that. While at the same time, as you said,
the Robin Hood thing is very real and it is
kind of overwhelming to see the reaction of most of
(02:26):
the public coming out positively about someone being murdered.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Versus media empire. So I was talking to our pal
Medna Gandhi about this versus media empires, who seem to
be pushing for a very different narrative from the one
the public champions. So now we have to ask what
exactly happened? Will dive in after a word from our sponsors.
(02:57):
Here are the facts, all right, let's start with the victim. Well,
let's start with the guy who got shot. As we'll
see to your earlier point, Matt, there are arguably many
victims in this story. Brian Robert Thompson. He's the CEO,
or was the CEO of United health Care, that is,
the insurance arm of a larger company, a parent group
(03:18):
called United Health Group. They are very confusing, somewhat bland names.
He's had this position since twenty twenty one, and as
executives go, he's pretty young in the game. He's fifty
years old, so by all accounts, he seems set to
continue his career despite what we'll learn is a lot
of controversy.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, but he's been at the company for twenty years
and he had run like the medicare arm of it
for quite a while, so you know, it's he was
very experienced in what he did. I want to just
quickly put something here. This is what I didn't understand,
and we've encountered this actually here guys, United Healthcare has
that insurance arm you're talking about, right, or the health
(04:00):
group Unite Healthcare. And then the other thing is the
optim Yes, Optum, so that is something we've encountered specifically
with prescriptions, but they do all kinds of other stuff.
And I just quickly wanted to read this because I
didn't know anything about them. Sure, if you go on
their website and you go under business, it says Optum
delivers care aided by technology and data, empowering people, partners
(04:24):
and providers with the guidance and tools they need to
achieve better health. But the important thing there is technology
and data.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Data. Yeah, yeah, leveraging data. It's something that we've talked
about in years past, the idea of weaponizing personal information
against consumer, which can't really happen in a lot of
state supported healthcare programs, but can definitely happen in privatized,
profit driven programs. And this is something that Brian Thompson
(04:53):
also comes under fire for in the events leading up
to earlier this December. I think for a lot of people,
when you hear the name United Health Group, you think
you kind of glaze over, you tune out. You know,
who cares? That is such a boring name. Right, it's
not doing anything for Meuse it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Up a little unless you're an investor. Right.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
If you're an investor, then you're also looking at their
stock and you're looking at their revenue, which grows year
over year. They're so big, they're a leviathan. They're extremely profitable,
I would say, as profitable as they are unpopular. In
twenty twenty three alone, you guys, their revenue grew forty
seven point five billion dollars. That's not the total, that's
(05:41):
how much it grew.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Well, And you know, that's the thing with privatizing healthcare,
because then it starts to fit into that rubric of
you know, forever growth being kind of the name of
the game. And it's not like people's health needs change.
So where does that growth come from?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well to we're going to get into full numbers here,
but according to their third quarter results that they reported
in mid October of this year, that growth came to
the tune of two point four million new users or
consumers that are served by United.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Health because it's a product, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And just in that third quarter of this year in October,
they had revenues of one hundred point eight billion dollars
and they grew eight point five billions, So that's a
that's a quarter of their growth for that year, for
this year plus if you're looking at twenty twenty three
numbers that we were just talking about, it's mind blowing.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And this would be a company that would be available
to just average you know, maybe self employed people who
would want to get healthcare through the market to.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Invest in or wait, you mean, could somebody just on
their own without a company, right, do something like that.
That's a good question. We know that a lot of
their profit is driven by making deals with companies overall,
you know, sort of like how some car manufacturers make
a lot of their sales through fleet vehicles. Right. So
(07:08):
they they're just so huge there, I think we get
to the conversation of too big to fail or too
big to exist in the case of healthcare. For twenty
twenty three, their revenue was three hundred and seventy one
point six billion dollars. By metric. They're huge. That's how
(07:30):
is that even a real number?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And that's that's revenue. That's just the revenue based on
serving people healthcare, and that's their.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Revenue denying clay investing premiums right, because every premium you
don't have to pay back on is some money you
can play with in investments, dude.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
And there aren't any regulations around that. I mean, shouldn't
that money be sitting inro or something a.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Little of regulations to protect private insurance companies.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But that's not what it's about. Going back to that earnings,
the third quarter earnings of twenty twenty four, they say
third quarter earnings of six dollars and fifty one cents
per share, which includes previous cyber attack impacts that they
had on the bottom line, which was a big deal
for United Healthcare in the recent past. But just think
about what that means. A growth of six dollars six
(08:26):
and a half dollars right per share. So if you
are just a person that is investing in the corporation
and maybe you're not even using their services at all,
you are making bank.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Right as long as the system continues according to the
status quo. This is where we get back to Thompson,
there's something a bit cinematic. All right. So it's early December,
less than a month ago as we record, and Thompson
is in New York City. It's December fourth, twenty twenty four.
He's planning to attend an annual investors meeting or conference
(09:00):
for the parent company, United health Group. We don't know
how the meeting would have gone, but we already know
there was a lot of tension because, first off, there's
so much money on the line. We should mention United
health Group is the world's largest healthcare company by revenue,
and just overall, if you looked at all the big
companies in the world by revenue, it's in the top ten.
(09:22):
It's the world's ninth largest company. Ever.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, and can we just let's just reiterate there of
what you just said, Ben, This was an investor conference.
This was not a how do we make United Healthcare
services better? This was how do we make more money
for you investors.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
This was not a public policy meeting. Right. Yeah, it's
nuts because the company has already faced in step with
its rise and profitability, it's faced regular strident criticism, especially
the insurance arm run by Thompson. They were accused of
unfairly rejecting claims and read statements about this. He calls
(10:02):
it value based care. That's what they're getting into. It's
a tricky bit of terminology there. They were also we
were talking about this off air, they were accused of
using AI to wholesale reject claims.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well, yeah, AI that was accused of being so faulty,
and they were aware of its faultiness that it would
it was denying like between eighty and ninety percent of
all claims, so then human beings had to go back in,
which was just a way to delay the process of
paying people.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, and the problem there too is, like I mean,
so many.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
People who do have are lucky enough to have health
care through their employer. Oftentimes those premiums are a decent
chunk of their check. And then if you get denied
a claim, the costs of fighting that or even the
complications of appealing that are sometimes so daunting that you
just eat it, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Delayed, delay, well, you delay your.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Needs, you know, unless it's some sort of absolute emergency.
I'm sure that they bank on that happening.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Of course, And if it's your health, there's also a
there's also very much a ticking clock. So yeah, even
if you had the money to fight in court, depending
on your condition, you may no longer be upon this
mortal plane. Ruling goes in your favor.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Think about how adversely that affects any individual's health when
they're going through a health issue like that, then they're
faced with that, as you said, daunting situation where you
are now stressing out like fully because of this that
you're not Oh, you're already stressing out because you're sick.
Something's wrong. Now you're like, how what am I gonna do?
What's my family gonna do? My descendants, what are they
(11:37):
going to do when I have to pay tens of
thousands of dollars?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Right? What's going to be left for them? As well?
You know, it goes into quality of life. To correct
or I guess, clarify the AI stuff. Let's go to Snopes.
They have a great breakdown on this, which is not
I think as vulnerable to the narrative war as a
lot of other media places are proving to be. So.
(12:03):
There was a lawsuit against United Healthcare and United Health
Group that also names Navvy Health in avi health, not
related to Avatar I think NAVI Health developed an AI
tool called NH Predict, and it is true that United
Health did deploy AI to evaluate claims, but we still
(12:25):
don't know to what extent the technology informed these decisions.
And I don't know if you can hear the italics
in the voice there, folks, but yes, a lot of
the yes.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That is a really good point, though, Ben, because everything
I saw about the AI stuff was from a lawsuit.
So those are like allegations, right.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
We do have to say their allegations.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So it's in my head it's already kind of solidified,
just because I've read it so many times now at
this point that there are these problems, but it is allegations,
the same way everything that's been said about Luigi are allegations.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
At this point, he is technically a person of interest
in custody.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Hey, hold up, guys, let's take a quick pause here,
have a word from our sponsor, and then jump right
back into this conversation about Luigi Manngiani.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Ed.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We're back.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Now. You might wonder where Luigi gets into the story here.
Let's set this up a little further. You see, Thompson
was also a personal target for critics as a human being, civilians,
and institutions. He had received multiple death threats related to
the denial of claims. People who may be out of
terminal condition and were threatening him because they thought he
(13:45):
was gilling them, or survivors who had lost a family
member and said, you know, if you take the life
of one of my loved ones, then your life should
also be forfeit. Now we're not agreeing with this, We're
now letting you know, he said. And it's all so
not to sound too cold, it's not just a point
made by individuals in the public, but institutions are also
(14:09):
haranguing Thompson in this company. Maybe we go to the
American Hospital Association, who back in twenty twenty one when
this guy became the CEO, they were already talking about
how terrible they thought his ideas were.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Oh, and this is in relation to non critical that's
in quotes visits to the er, right.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, yeah, this is where we get to value based care,
which is just such a the omami of that, the
juicy evil of that phrase. What did the American Hospital
Association say?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Patients are not medical experts and should not be expected
to self diagnose during what they believe is a medical emergency,
threatening patients with a financial penalty for making the wrong
decision could have a chilling effect on seeking emergency care.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Scary stuff when you think about it. Yeah, it's kind
of what I was.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I mean, it's just like, you know, all of the chaos,
and you know, stress of just looking into it or
even like figuring out what to do can just cause
you to throw your hands up and say, you know what,
I'm just not even gonna deal with this.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Now. You have a pain in your chest, kick the right.
Sometimes the pain's there, sometimes it goes away. Should I
go to a doctor? Well, I know, if I go
and I make the wrong bet and it's just you know, heartburn,
then insurance might not pay for it.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah, I mean, even we who have insurance have those
thoughts plenty where it's like, is this something that's going
to cause my premiums to go up? Should I just
kind of deal with it and suffer in silence?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Can I afford to get an ambulance out here?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh? Yeah? Or do I take the uber? Well?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, exactly. And either way, once I get there, they're
taking care of me. That's in quotations as well. At
the hospital, and they are the staff there is going
to take care of you and do what they have
to do, but who knows what care is going to
go into it and how much the care is going
to cost, And can you make those rational decisions or
even your loved one who's there on your behalf making
those decisions.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, exactly. And then you know, on the dark side
of it, if you gamble wrong and you say I'm
not going to go to the er, sometimes this chest
pain goes away and you die. Yeah, you know. It's
Here's the way I was trying to think of a
good way to explain this. I would say, if you're
not familiar with privatized insurance, one way to think of
it is imagine a pizza company. Imagine you want to
(16:30):
buy a pizza. So in the world of privatized insurance,
the business model is you go to this store, you
apply to see whether or not you can buy a pizza,
and then you pay them every month, and if you
ever want a pizza, they will tell you what kind
you can get, where you can go, and afterwards they'll
(16:51):
tell you how much you pay for it. Good God,
I mean, that's how you know it's pizza insurance.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You'll negotiate with how much you have to pay uh
before will help you?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to buy two hundred
and fifty dollars worth of pizza, and then they might
pay for some of it. Maybe it's weird you're paying
to pay for stuff would be one of the arguments.
We're trying to be fair here. There was a lot
of disturbing contexts this investor conference. What would have happened
we will never know because Thompson did not make it
(17:23):
to that meeting. This is where we get to December fourth,
twenty twenty four. It's early in the morning, six forty
five local time or so. He is leaving the Marriott
hotel that he's staying at. It's across the street from
the New York Hilton in Midtown. This is where the
meeting was gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
At eight o'clock in the morning, so it's all it's about.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
To happen, right, He's getting coffee, basically probably taking his
morning constitutional. He's walking along West fifty fourth Street toward
that Hilton. He gets shot from behind a point blank
range we call maybe about six feet yeah, and there's
the person who is on camera shooting him on CCTV
is is masked, They're wearing a hoodie, they have a backpack,
(18:04):
They're wielding a pistol that later becomes a subject of
a lot of speculation scrutiny. He is shot in the
caf and in the back. He's transported to Mount Sinnott.
He's transported to the local hospital and he's pronounced dead
shortly thereafter, at seven to twelve am. And I'm going
(18:25):
to be honest. One thing that offended a lot of
the public as this case continued is that there are
a lot of homicides in New York and they don't
all get the same level of investigation. Is that fair
to say?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Absolutely, especially shooting deaths in a large city center like that.
And you know, not just New York, any city in
the world. There are homicides that occur on a very
regular basis. And yeah, and it's just kind of okay,
there's an investigation, it's not a big deal. But this
guy was very prominent at a very prominent thing in
a very prominent city. I understand the argument of why
(19:00):
it's bigger news, right, sure, but it is just strange
to know that all of our attention gets focused on
this guy because he is in some ways, in some
very real ways, responsible for billions of dollars of money
that flows through our economy.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
And arguably, according to the critics, hundreds of thousands, if
not millions, of deaths yep, albeit indirectly. So the authorities
react quickly. There's an intensive man hunt, and we were
all texting with each other talking off air about this.
Following the story, public officials on both sides of the
(19:38):
all sides of the political spectrum, they expressed condolences for Thompson,
his family, and his friends, and there was a lot
of initial speculation about the kind of gun used and
how this guy took an e bike later found to
be in Central Park, how did he escape you know
what I mean?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It was one of those city bikes right like and
drop off at another little hub.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's kind of crazy. I think I may have mentioned this.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
We were talking about this recently, but I was actually
in New York when this happened. Yeah, I was at
eating at this deli and there was this reporter kind
of snooping around and he was talking to this guy
who was a security guard or like a concierge or
like a baggage guy at a bell hop type guy
at the Hilton, and.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I had no idea what was going on.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I'd seen it in the elevator for our building, our
offices that are right down there in that area, and
I didn't even know what was in New York. I
just saw the headline. And I was just really busy
that day and I was grabbing a quick bite and
I heard this reporter talking, this guy asking about I
wonder if if there was anything on the security cameras,
and I was like, gosh, I.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wonder what's going on.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Maybe they were like shooting a movie here and there
was a celebrity sighting. I felt like such a dumb
ass when I realized this was literally happening right under
my nose.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Wow, there were other people when we come to find
who were nearby, Yeah, witness the shooting in person. The assailant,
whomver they made, we have to legally say, chose not
to attack those people. This was clearly a premeditated operation,
specifically against Brian Thompson for one reason or another. Right,
(21:13):
everybody initially assumed it was because of his profession, right,
and the assailant. We talked about this just amid the
three of us, the assailant fired three times with what
appeared to be a suppressed nine millimeter struck Thompson the
back the right calf, but after each shot he had
to manually cycle the gun. So for the three shots
(21:35):
he took, there were three unexploded cartridges that also popped out,
and he did not hesitate when he did it. He
didn't look surprised at the malfunction.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So, Okay, I want to talk about this because I'm
I'm unsure of the exact details, and I don't know
if we're going to get those until the court starts
going through, right, But I was talking I had a
conversation with my neighbor about that, and he was talking
about specific types of guns, like suppressed guns that are
specifically for stealth purposes that he had encountered in the
(22:07):
military before. And it's the kind that you have to
cycle every time. It's not it doesn't have that automatic
the semi automatic functionality where it racks back. You have
to like tap and racket every time. Yeah, So I
was just wondering if you guys had seen anything, if
that's the type of weapon he had, or if it
was a semi automatic that was malfunctioning. That he had
(22:27):
to rack.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Because originally it was reported that he was the gun
had jammed, right, which would mean you know, it's a
malfunctioning semi auto.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well that's what it looks like on the buzz video, right.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, well exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
But then we find that the cartridges that were at
the crime scene may well have been intended to have
been ejected and left there, you know, to send a message.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It certainly looks like to literally.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Send a message. Deny, defend, and depose. These are the
words written on the casings and they are similar to
a phrase called delay, deny, defend. And this is the
way that some attorneys and public rights advocates have described
privatized insurances strategy that we just discussed, denying services and payment.
(23:18):
It's also the title of a book published in twenty ten,
which is a great read. It's highly critical of the
insurance industry. And as we also discussed, we talked about
this with each other a lot off air. That book
is again a bestseller, correct.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It will you jumped up immediately? It was number two
when we talked about this on Strange News on the
Amazon nonfiction list.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
And this is all happening at once. There's this wide
scale search. There's a focus of resources that honestly don't
see in a lot of other homicides, and authorities across
the city, that across the region, then across the land
entire are scour every possible lead they can identify, and
(24:04):
they're trying to find and arrest the shooter based on
this footage. We also see footage emerging of him at
a hostel, which goes viral. We also see collections of
different pieces of circumstantial evidence saying, whomever this was, we
think they did the following blah blah blah. Still very
(24:25):
fog of war. But they find stuff like a water
bottle and a candy wrapper and a phone.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, there's all kinds of interesting stuff. There's a several
places online that give like a timeline of events where
it's trying to track whoever the killer was via what
came out early. So this was I think the fifteenth
of the seventeenth. I was seeing, especially on the seventeenth,
seeing detailed lists of like where the suspect moved and
(24:56):
like where they encountered things and could have left little.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Breadcrumbs bus originating from Atlanta. But you don't that doesn't
mean the suspect hopped on in Atlanta because buses are
kind of sketchy.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Yeah, I mean the more you but the more you
kind of put these pieces together, the more it really
reminds me of like John Doe and seven, you know,
like wanting to be caught, or like the Riddler and
the Batman kind.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Of like I just it just feels that way.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And I mean, you know, and and stuff like that
is also what leads to this kind of maybe not lionization,
but this glorification of this genius kind of you know,
freedom fighter type mentality behind the way people are treating
Luigi Mangioni as this larger than life kind of character.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Like a full keyro Right. And that is a powerful narrative.
It also is perhaps a simplistic narrative. I'm pointing at
Jonathan Strickland as he walks by, look at that leather jacket,
and what a smoke show that guy. Police said they
believe they found the shooter's backpack a few days later,
(26:07):
on December sixth, and adding to this idea or this
image of this anti hero super character of some sort,
the backpack has a Tommy Hill figure jacket and apparently
monopoly money yeah. Again, as to that narrative, it's about
(26:27):
sending you. This about sending you.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh guys, I can hear the ads coming. Let's get
to those and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And we have returned. The story continues and it just
gets stranger.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
You guys. There are journals that we will have to
get into at some point. But again, some of it's
kind of dangerous to even talk about right now because
it's unknown how much it's actually connected to the case
and how much it is a human being's thoughts on
something that's kind of messed up, right, like a situation
that we've been describing this whole episode that is messed up,
(27:09):
that we all are aware of is messed up, but
then somebody writing about it, it's just then it appears
to plot sending that message.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Right, And that's the thing too. I think we're doing
our level best to be careful with how we portray
or how we frame these things. But you're absolutely right again,
every piece here constructs a narrative or an argument for
a narrative. The NYPD offers a reward. They say, look,
if you give us information about this this assailant that
(27:38):
we see on camera, then you can get up to
ten thousand dollars. The next day they release those images
we mentioned this what goes viral? Two stills show the
suspect's face without the mask, and one of them is
him tossing an insuscient Devil may Care smile as at assistant. Yeah,
what a good looking fellow. And I like Jake jillanall.
(27:59):
He does look like Jake jill at all.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
And that's another aspect of the narrative that I think
is so interesting. You guys, just what a smoke show
this Luigi Mangioni is. And it's almost like insulting, to
be honest, and it really does. I mean not to
get too in the weeds about it, but a lot
of this glorification, it does seem to really kind of
highlight how vain and sort of surface level and kind
(28:26):
of frivolous American pop culture sort of has become.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
One hundred percent, especially with social media. I mean, to
your point, I remember multiple times where some mugshot went viral,
sometimes so I had done it, committed a horrible crime, No, yeah,
the guy with all the face statue, Yes, it's horrible rapist,
murderer and the most widely propagated social media statements or
stuff like I can fix him, I'd hit it.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, you know, well, it does remind me. I'll just
put this out where monster BTK is happening. We've interviewed
a couple of psychologists who were related to that case.
One of them, Catherine Ramslin, makes a very distinct point
about how the media was disappointed when the person who
(29:14):
was BTK was revealed because he was not a Ted Bundee.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Like character exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And people build up this thing in their mind, of
this mystique.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
All that's what it is, is what it is. That's
the other question too. We'll get to which hinges on Luigi,
because I would argue, and I think we're all on
board with this, there is a larger context at play,
whatever side you fall on. This is in many ways
a damning condemnation of current society and what we prioritize
(29:47):
and what we think about well.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And yeah, and also how we're feeling underneath the surface
of all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And the conversation around the fed up healthcare system.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Is absolutely valid, but the bigger conversation is more about
it's almost like the memification of this guy, and it's
kind of become this absurdist sort of joke as opposed
to a real conversation.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
I don't know, it just makes me because it's an
absolutely good point, and they still haven't at this point
in the timeline, they still haven't identified this guy. But
the police are getting are already, you know, deeply involved.
The FEDS come in as well, which doesn't happen all
the time. The US law apparatus, It's just true, it
has a lot of toys it can deploy in any
(30:36):
given situation or investigation. The thing is, they don't get
pulled out all the time, candidly, not for most murders,
not for a lot of violent crimes. That's why every
that's why so many states at least have this absolute,
just profane amount of sexual assault kits that are on
back law right haven't been checked for years well, and
(30:57):
not to get.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Too too political about it, but like you know, I
do think there's an interesting disparity between the way Luigi
Mangioni is being treated versus the way like school shooters
are treated, Like Mangioni is being you know, by the
powers that be, not the people, of course, couched and
raised up as this terrorist, this act of absolute aggression
(31:19):
towards our our livelihoods, our system, you know, the status quo.
And yet school shootings, you forget the guy's name a
week later, you know, because it just we move on
and it's apparently an unsolvable problem. And yet one CEO
(31:39):
millionaire gets killed and everyone's freaking out.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's a really interesting thing because we're there's been a
narrative that we need to not even say the names of.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Like school shooters, right, to.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Not glorify any of that stuff. But then right now,
I mean, every news outlet has pictures of this guy,
his name everywhere, all of this stuff going on.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah, and this is part of that narrative. War. Members
of the public take the social media very quickly, you know,
and they point out, initially before the suspects identified, they
point out the discrepancy in police activity, and they say, hey,
did this one guy somehow what makes him matter more
than another innocent person who got shot? Stuff got so
(32:26):
nasty so quickly. There appeared and still appears to be
a huge difference between the overall public opinion and what
the mass media wants to say. I'm thinking, in particular,
some real I'll say it kish op eds who are
arguing that Brian Thompson is the real working class hero. Oof. Okay,
it's just not the time for that kind of time.
(32:46):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
And I don't think any of us are saying, go Luigi,
You're doing God's work, because we've also talked about like,
the death of one CEO does not change the nature
of an entire industry of privatized healthcare, and it's just
not going to.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
But it does potentially give that gift of fear that
we're talking about and de Becker to anyone that's on
that level that is making those decisions that have a
mass effect on human beings and their welfare. I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Not showing effects perhaps well, or at.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Least a recognition that, oh, I'm not untouchable even though
I'm making all these decisions based on profits. Maybe I
just need to think more about the consequences of.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Now something in the wind. It was my understanding that
almost immediately after this took place, security details around other
CEOs at that level increased significant.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
And New York, the State of New York, is currently
evaluating a possible call in line just for CEOs who
feel threatened. Look, we're talking about all this stuff at once, individually,
in groups, sometimes on our show. And on December ninth,
five days after the murder, authorities visited mcdondos in Altoona, Pennsylvania,
where they arrest a twenty six year old man named
(34:05):
Luigi Mangioni. He is later charged with the murder of Thompson,
along with what appears to be an increasing number of charges,
both in Pennsylvania and in New York. Initially, he faced
eleven charges, including one of the more interesting ones, first
degree murder with terrorist intent, murder in the furtherance of
(34:27):
an act of terrorism as defined by the Anti Terrorism Act.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
I can see that though, you can see what why
they would throw the book at him in that.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
We can see that. Yeah, because he's not trying to
terrorize the public. He's trying to terrorize industry. Yeah, which
are is a part of the public.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
They're trying to guy fox him.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
That's it. That's it. He also received we'll just give
you the list in case murder in the first degree
doesn't stick. He's also charged with murder in the second degree,
two different counts of it, criminal possession of a weapon,
a couple of different times, stalking using a weapon equipped
with a silencer. These are the facts as they stand today.
(35:08):
We haven't even got to Here's where it gets crazy
because the deeper we have been digging and you as well,
we imagine, the more strange details and rappid holes emerge.
What happened here, what's going to happen next? What does
it mean for the future. These are questions we are
going to answer in another episode because we took a
(35:28):
pause and we've been doing we've been diving into some
two parters. We hope you enjoy them as much as
we do. But given that this is an emergent, ongoing event,
we're gonna pause and we'll come back with more details,
you know, like trying to find an unbiased jury member.
(35:49):
Oh Man.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Ben said that when we were taking a break, and
Matt and I both just exclaimed like, oh my god,
it didn't even occur to me, And yeah, I think
taking a little where you know, again, this is the
last recording we're doing before the holidays, and I think
more information will trickle out while we're taking that break
that will all be taking him. But can I just add, yeah,
I just you know, you mentioned where the charges were
coming from. One of the most recent stories is that
(36:12):
he denied or he I guess waved extradition, waved extradition,
which means they could take him from Pennsylvan, Takehi from.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Pennsylvania back to New York.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
But man, to your point, that purp walk shot is
the hardest image of the year.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
It's egregious too. It is doesn't even makes sense. It's
a bigger purple walk. Can you describe it? Yeah? Sure,
it's a bigger purp walk than you would see for
people like Timothy McVeigh.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Wait, I didn't even see this. Let's describe it in
full because I don't know what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
So you can see a small army of people walk
purp walking him from a small plane that flew into
New York. And the Mayor is there, The Mayor of
New York is there. There are multiple armed guards. There
was a smaller purp walk for the Unibomber WI And
(37:03):
by the way, Luigi Mangioni does have on good Reads
a review of the Unibomber's manifesto.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
And it's so stark too, because he's wearing that bright
orange Department of Corrections jumpsuit. Got the lock up on
the waist, got the lock up on the waist and
the wrists by the water. It is just and there's
an image of particular of like a front you know shot,
and it's just like the memes right themselves. It looks
like a gangster rap album cover.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, that's Christopher Nolan.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It's unbelieved comparison.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That is fascinating because we didn't even talk today about
the tipster and all of the blowback of the McDonald's.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
McDonald's review bomb exactly, we have so much McDonald's alatuna
no snitches here.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I'd also like to share, guys, just for us a
photograph that I saw in a McDonald's that also went
viral after these events.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
See something, say something, Oh Donald McDonald is the master snitch.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, the master of whispers. Not age well, and I'm
sure their attentions were good, but that comes up in
the review bombs. We haven't gotten to the fraternity. Emangio
was part of this family.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
It's gonna be a great suit second part. But also
just to add, I believe the person that was the
tipster didn't call the right number and didn't get the money.
They didn't get the rewards because they just called the
regular old police instead of like the call and.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
The tip line. Right, And this is where we are
going to leave it for now, folks. We want to
hear your thoughts. Just with the facts as we've laid out,
we've endeavored to be to be fair, not to editorialize
too much, while also representing the viewpoints that we are
encountering and you are encountering in the public sphere. So
(38:53):
let us know your thoughts. We hope the end of
the year finds you well. We will be back very soon.
We'd love your help with part two or possibly part
three of this ongoing case. In the meantime, tell us
what's on your mind. We try to be easy to
find online. That's right.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
You can find us on the internet all over your
social media platforms of choice at the handle conspiracy Stuff,
where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Here's where it gets crazy. You got some hot tips.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
For us from McDonald's and alatuna, and you could communicate
that with us and all of your fellow conspiracy realists
right there in that group. We're also Conspiracy Stuff on
x fka, Twitter as well as YouTuber. We have video
content color for your perusing enjoyments on Instagram and TikTok. However,
gosh new Year for TikTok.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Guys. For now our nektalk. We are conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That's right. We also have a phone number. Use your
phone in mouth to reach us by calling one eight
three three st d w y t K when you
call in. We didn't even we didn't even get into
privately manufactured firearms, which is a.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Post topic than guys, we have an episode on that.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, so call in with information on that. Anything you
want us to talk about in the next episode, call
us and let us know when you do. Call and
give yourself a cool nickname, and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
If you've got more to say, or you've got links,
get anything like that. Just for any reason you want
to reach us in a different way, send us a
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet to unafraid. Sometimes the
void rights back lay out your opinion of the narrative war.
Are you one of the people who still insists that
Mangioni was a stitch up job? They're out there and
we want to hear reasoning why if you believe so?
(40:41):
What does this tell us about society overall? Perhaps most importantly,
what do you think is going to happen next? Or
just give us a suggestion for a brand new episode
you think your fellow conspiracy realist will enjoy. We're out
here in the dark. Join us at conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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