May 7, 2025 • 60 mins
It seemed the world paused on April 21, 2025, when 88-year-old Pope Francis passed away after a long struggle with multiple health issues. As the Catholic church and the world at large wonders what the future will bring, a once-obscure piece of writing is back in the public zeitgeist: the "Prophecy of the Popes," which purports to predict the ascension of all Popes up until the rise of the antichrist. Why are some people so concerned? Well, according to the true believers -- Francis was the second to last Pope in the prophecy. And the next just may be the final Pope, leading to the destruction of Rome and the end of civilization as we know it.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. But riddle me this,
friends and neighbors, who's not here? If you guess Pope Francis,
you are correct? Ouch damn rip the Pope. Yes. Pope
(00:53):
Francis passed away on April twenty first, twenty twenty five.
The official cause for the Vatican is a and cardiac
arrest after you know, known continuing complications with double pneumonia
a respiratory tract infection. These can be very dangerous things,
especially for people who are getting up in years. He
(01:14):
had a life well lived. He passed at the age
of eighty eight, and he had been you know, like
we said, he had been struggling for some time leading
up to his passage. And I don't know, guys, we
talked about this off air. We mentioned this in a
Strange News segment a while back, or pretty recently actually,
(01:35):
And I think it's fair to say that although we
are not ourselves practicing Catholics, we do acknowledge the global
grief felt by billions of people in the wake of
the pope's death. Well, he was like a meaningful pope too.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I was talking to my friend Harry, a friend of
the show who's visiting me, and I was like, this
is the good pope, right, this is the one that
I think even average folks seemed to know about and acknowledge.
For his somewhat progressive ideas around many things relating to Catholicism,
did very important work in rectifying or at the very
least addressing some of the horrible cases of abuse who
(02:14):
folks have suffered under the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, social activists as well for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And now, if you're listening to this on the day
it comes out, in the Vatican, within the Sistine Chapel,
all the cardinals that are eligible have gathered up. Today
they begin the quest to make a new pope.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
This a questered quest. The conclave begins on May seventh.
We are recording this on Monday, April twenty eighth. We were,
you know, we had a conversation off air folks about
timing of this, whether we should wait for the new
pope to be officially chosen until we get the you know,
(02:59):
the signals of smoke from the Vatican, which is the
traditional way of announcing the election of a new pope
with that new pope smell sure, sure, And what we
wanted to do instead was to respond to a lot
of correspondence we've received with questions, commentary, and interpretations about
(03:19):
what this this passage means for the world ahead. And
one of the strangest related concepts that comes back into
the news anytime a new pope must be elected is
something called the prophecy of Saint Malachi, also known as
the prophecy of the Popes.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And we're going to get into what exactly that means
and consists of. Right after a quick word from a sponsor, here.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Are the facts, all right. There are a lot of
saints in Catholicism. There are a lot of formally recognized saints,
right canonized, and then there are a lot of what
we call folk saints, which is a result of centuries
of religious syncretism. Right, and this guy, Saint Malachi is
(04:12):
an official Catholic saint. I've got it here in the notes.
His real baptismal name is kind of hard to pronounce.
We know that he was born in ten ninety four
in Northern Ireland, but a lot of his early life
has lost to history. He's, perhaps in Catholicism, best known
(04:33):
as the first native born Irish saint. Does anyone want
to tackle his baptismal name or do we just want
to spell it?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Spell?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes? Okay, I'm with you there, Matt. He is baptized
as m a l mhao dhog space ua space morgaar
r gai r Right there. You say about that, that's
(05:06):
how we're going to say. Okay, cool, that's how we're
going to say it. I don't we don't want to
be disrespectful. Is Gaelic the word? How would you pronounce it?
How would you pronounce mal malma dog? That's pretty good.
I don't know is this Gaelic?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Though?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It has to be. It's a lot of contents and uhs,
we're going to call it Malick. Okay, fair enough. We
know he didn't have as so many children. Uh then
and now I've experienced. He didn't have the best of childhoods.
His father passed away. His father was a teacher, and
his father passed away when Malachi was only seven years old.
(05:45):
And then later when his mother passes away, he gets
into a mentorship follower position with a holy recluse, living
near a cathedral, living in a cell like anchorte, like
a hermit. Whoa okay.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So he became a priest in eleven nineteen and rose
up through the ranks to become a bishop in eleven
thirty two, and then he passed away in eleven forty eight.
In his life, throughout his life he was known for
this idea of restoring discipline with some liberals around that
whatever that means, it's a little vague to the area
(06:24):
that was under his care. People felt at the time
the church had grown a bit lax, had sort of
lost its way a bit, perhaps was not adjusting or
reacting to some of the chaos of the time, and
he was sort of looked at as bringing the church
up to date to reinstill kind of that sense of
(06:45):
spiritual discipline into a world gone awry.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And his later biographer, Bernard of Clairvaux, would write an
entire book about this man, because that's what biographers do.
He calls this work the Life of Saint Malachi or
just Life of Saint Malachi, and in this he describes
pretty much what you're talking about. No, he says, Malachi
was known for his obedience to God, his discipline to
(07:13):
the church and doctrine, as well as his humility and meekness.
So in modern parlance, he made church cool again. He
made the sacrament cool again. He was renewing belief at
a time when many people in the area were questioning
the importance and the authority of the church, not just
(07:35):
as a secular institution, but as a spiritual belief system.
And we have to remember, you know, there are a
lot of other religions still around at the time in
that area.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh yeah, and everybody's buying to get new followers to
you know, to all of the different religions. It's very important.
You need more human beings to go out and do
the work for the church, slash the gathering, slash whatever
it is, got.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
To grow flock maybe, yeah, because we have to remember
it's still the case now in modern evenings, but back then,
spiritual power and approval of a spiritual system was pretty
much the same thing as acquiring political power. Oh gosh, yes,
you know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Do you think the Catholic Church is as influential today
as it was in the past, or as it eroded
a bit in terms of its political capital.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's interesting. That reminds me very much of the recent funeral,
which is part of why we held off on recording
this episode of the Blue Suit. Oh the Yeah, the
current US president were a suit that was apparently too
light in color for some dress codes. But I'm thinking
more about just the entirety of the world leaders, many
(08:51):
people who would ordinarily not be in the same room together.
I bet you saw it too, Matt, the anti drone
technology in play. Did you see those? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
It's such a security risk to have all as.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Me, Oh yeah, in my mind, guys, I'm trying to
formulate this thought. I don't think the Catholic Church has
as much power as it maybe once did in the
minds of individuals. To me, and this may be fully wrong,
but to me, the spiritual nature of someone was a
big part of their identity. I'm not saying that it's
(09:27):
not that way anymore. But maybe it was stronger, a
stronger piece of individual identity for WHI. And now the
power that the Catholic Church wields the Roman Empire as
a religion is monetary to me, just because of the
amount of money that has been flowing through and growing
right over all of these centuries.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Shout out to the Black Pope, right.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And all the anti popes that I didn't even know about.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yes, yeah, and shout out to of course our friends
at the Vatican Bank, Opus day and night, Tamalta, the Jasuitz. Look,
I think to that question, what's really interesting about it
is that you could argue, yes, there is growing secularism,
especially in Europe and the Mediterranean overall, just across time. However,
(10:18):
the reach of the Catholic Church it's global. You know,
we're talking Latin America, we're talking the Philippines when like
the biggest Asiatic country or Asian country that practices Catholicism.
So maybe the influence has evolved or shifted, but it's
still a huge deal, whether we're talking spiritually or for
(10:40):
the atheist in the crowd. Simply geopolitically and financially, the
pope is one of the most important figures in the world.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely, guys. Before we get into the
next section here, which is really what this episode's all about,
can we just briefly talk about the process, just explain
the process of selecting a pope, because I think to me,
that's what's so astonishing about the potential feat of predicting
(11:10):
how this whole process would actually work out and then
doing that over and over and over and over again
in a single book, like we're going to talk about
in the next section. So if we don't mind, just
I'd like to talk about what the actual conclave is
and how it functions, because it is pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Well, and speaking of the predictability of it, I would
be interested in keeping an eye on betting markets around
the next trope is going to be, because you know
they're out there. But I also will mention again I
think we said it in our previous conversation, maybe it
was on Strange News about the film Conclave and how
the downloads of it are through the roof, because a
lot of people want to know about this process, and
(11:48):
the timing couldn't be better for the creators of that
excellent film, and it does show in great detail how
the process works.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
So let's go through that now. I actually started reading
that novel too that the film based on it, and
I was really impressed with the author, Robert Harris. So
far I haven't finished it, but he put boots on
the grounds. Yeah, and he went to the Vatican and
they walked him through the process. So it is there's
a lot of Conclave is of course a film, right,
(12:19):
not a documentary, but it does have a lot of
factual insights into the real life process of the cardinals
and the conclict.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And the perspective is need because you kind of feel
like a fly on the wall. You're trapped in there
with them, So there is that. It's certainly an experiential film.
I highly recommend it.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
So let's spend a few minutes on the process.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, So let's say Pope passes away, as just happened,
and we need to choose a new pope. You have
to gather together all of the cardinals that exist, the
Catholic cardinals that are officially a part of the church.
There are seventy one countries on the planet that have
cardinals residing within them. You have to get all of
(13:01):
those cardinals by the way, there are one hundred and
thirty five eligible cardinals right now on the planet.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Out of two hundred and fifty two total yes.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And the reason why they're only one hundred and thirty
five eligible cardinals is because you have to be under
the age of eighty to go and be a part
of this conclave process.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
So let's pause there. Just think about the math of
the two hundred and fifty two. One hundred and thirty
five are young enough to vote.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yes, which just tells you about maybe cardinals are just old.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I mean it is a position of high authority, it is,
you know what I mean. It's not a right now.
I mean historically this wasn't always the case, but right
now you do have to kind of earn that position. Yeah,
you can't just be like a cardinal nepo baby, a
car nepo. But well in to not anymore, right, But
(13:55):
also the issue is maybe just to be fair travel concerns,
oh yeah, for people are quite elderly for.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Sure, and you know, who knows, if who knows what
you're going to do with your vote if you're almost
out of here already. I don't know the idea. I
think I think the idea is you make a decision
that a slightly younger person, even if you're still seventy nine,
you make a decision based on what's going to be
best for the church and or for humanity or whatever
(14:23):
that decision is based on.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But there are still constituencies, right, like, there are people
that these individual popes from their parts of the world represent,
and perhaps there might be difference maybe politically.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's yeahdred percent. Yeah, thought is everybody is going to
do what you know, follow tells them, Yeah, what what
the vision is?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What the Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just to
say that this process, though incredibly you know, rooted in
sacred tradition, is not immune from the trappings of politics.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
We'll talk about it. We'll talk about that in depth,
I think. But to your point, Matt, part of the
calculation not just safety of travel. Sure, that is at
best a tertiary concern. If we're being honest, it's holding
to tradition like you were saying, no voting in absentia,
And then I would argue, also, what I think we're
getting at here, Matt, is the idea that to vote
(15:21):
your conscience and God's will, you need to be young
enough to realize that it will still affect you. You
can't just vote and be out. There will be consequences
and ramifications within your lifetime for your part of the
church and the church overall.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
And yet it is a secret ballot, right, yes, yes,
everybody who can vote hangs out, hangs out, gets locked
inside the Systeine.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Chapel like a sequestered jury. Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
They write down in secret the name of their chosen
candidate and then buy rank because the cardinals are ranked. Right,
you go up and you put your vote piece of
paper into a sacramental urn. It's like a ceremonial urn.
Then there are three cardinals who are the Scrutineers. That's
their name. They tally all the ballots. Once they've counted them,
(16:15):
they burn all of them ballots, and so nobody knows
but the three scrutineers. And then if there is a
two thirds majority candidate chosen out of that vote, then
they light the white smoke and the Sistine Chapel and
everybody knows there's a new pope. If not, they hold
the vote again and again and.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Again again again, and it can go on for a while.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh dude, so Okay, so it goes on. There are
two votes in the morning and two votes in the afternoon, right,
black smoke every time. If no pope is chosen, then
they'll do that for three days straight. Then if no
pope has been chosen, they take a day off, and
then they go back and they do it again.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Off is really for networking politicking, Yes, in one's case,
that's what it's That's what it's for. And also, you
know this is going to be this is going to
be familiar to so many people, the Catholic and non
Catholic alike. There is a lot of old tradition here,
and some of it can frankly seem a little bit
(17:21):
extra in the parlance of our time, or perhaps a
little bit maybe silly or officious. But I would argue
as a non Catholic that it is incredibly important to
remember there's a reason they did. They're still doing stuff
this way, like the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment.
We're getting so far away from the point of this show.
(17:42):
But the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment after
his death, we didn't even talk about all the death
rituals is because people used to like rob the guy's apartment,
rob the papal apartment for reliqueries and objects of power.
They used to rob the graves, you know what I mean.
That's why there's a triple lined cat. Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, I just just to the point of being about
the show. I think all this stuff is important because
this is all this Imagine that process that we just
described and then the stakes that Ben just described there,
Like once a pope is out of the office, imagine
somebody having some kind of vision at some point and
writing down this vision where he saw every single pope
(18:24):
that's going to come into power for hundreds and hundreds
of years.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, if it was him, and this is.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Our if it was real, if any of us, if
this is.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Our segue back to Malachi, So we know just a
very little bit about him now today, for I would
say lay Catholic and non Catholics alike. Malachi is not
known for his living work in the Church. He's instead
known for a cryptic piece of writing we alluded to
at the top, generally called the Prophecy of the Popes.
(18:55):
Technically it's called Prophecy of Saint Archbishop Malachi Canning the
Supreme Pontiffs, the Bishop of Rome, the popes. It's weird
because it sounds like it's a book, but it's eleven
short sort of single line paragraphs and then two additional paragraphs.
There are multiple lines, and like you were saying, Matt,
it claims to be a divinely inspired guide to predict
(19:21):
the secession of one hundred and twelve total popes, starting
with Pope Celestine the second in eleven forty three, right
during the life of Saint Malachi, and then it goes
onward and at the very end there's a guy named
Petrus Romanus who is supposed to emerge as a final
(19:42):
figure after the one hundred and twelfth pope. So, according
to the tradition we're saying, Malachi is summoned to Rome
by the Pope at the time he sees the famous
seven Hills, and when he sees them for the first
time in his life, he falls to his knees. He
has this vision. It details every single poop who will
(20:03):
reign in the Catholic Church with that ending point a
guy named Petris Robantus. And I suggest we share an
English translation of what they say about Petrus because it's
pretty heavy.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
So here's a quote in the final persecution of the
Holy Roman Church. There will reign Peter the Roman, who
will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the
city of Seven Hills will be destroyed, and the Dreadful
Judge will judge the people. That's a that's a bit much.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Real end of days, you know, Oh boy, the return
of the anti Christ. Now have we ticked off any
of these boxes? Guys? Are we going to go through it?
Just how it's perceived? Okay, okay?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Hold on, is the Dreadful Judge? Is that God Christ?
Or is it God? It's God?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I think, how does one interpret? You know?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I mean, he doesn't specify, but but if it's going
by the Bible, right it's God, then it is like
the dude is coming. Because in Revelation, the only the
only being in existence that knows when the end of
times occurs, the Judgment Day occurs, is God himself. Not
(21:21):
even Jesus is aware.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
No, Jesus can only intercede yes on behalf of humanity
and the world. I mean, these are bold claims, and
we're talking about interpretation already. Those who believe the prophecy
is correct have serious and worriessome questions about what happens now.
The final pope is going to be the one hundred
(21:43):
and twelfth after whom we got this Peter the Robin
guy who leads the church through the tribulation period. But
things go terribly wrong. This is the time of judgment
and it may occur within your lifetime if you believe
that the one hundred and twelfth Pope was the recently
passed Pope Francis. So common interpretations will tell us that
(22:07):
Pope Francis is the one hundred and twelfth on Malachi's
list or Arnold's spoiler. We'll get to it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
So he would be pre Peter the Roman, Yeah, the
penultimate okay, so.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
But some people say he was Peter the Roman.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
And Peter the Roman again. Tea leaves interpretation. How does
this help you address the world? What happens next? Is
the world prepared? What do we know about this purported
prophecy and its claims? And what do we make of
the interpretations. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors
and then dive in. Here's where it gets crazy. All right,
(22:48):
Before we answer any of those questions, not to tease
everyone too much, we have to acknowledge that there's a
bag of badger's here because the prophecy is attributed to
Saint Malachi, said to be written in eleven thirty nine,
but it's first published much later. Okay, it's lost at
some point, and then it's rediscovered, and at some point
(23:08):
after its rediscovery it is published in fifteen ninety five
by a Benedictine monk named Arnold Wyld.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So almost four hundred and what fifty years later, I mean,
that's huh.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
The papal predictions up to fifteen ninety are super precise.
What up to when he publishes it, they're super odd point,
like bullseye. Every time it gets a little less precise,
you could argue increasingly less precise after fifteen ninety. This
would lead believers to say, well, maybe it's an imperfect
(23:47):
interpretation of a perfect prophecy, and skeptics would say imperfect
is just a fancier way of saying guessing.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, guys, I want to just do a quick thought experiment.
Imagine you are Saint Malachi right now, you look out
at those seven hills, you have this vision. Do you
have just some paper to start writing down in great
detail exactly what you saw, perhaps like gold tablets, but
like one hundred and twelve iterations of what you're seeing
(24:19):
in the moment.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Do a sketch? Maybe it's a good question. But also
one could argue that being like a divine a divine
revelation like this is encoded differently. Right, what if it's
burned into your brain?
Speaker 4 (24:35):
How could we possibly comprehend what that must be like?
It would be a whole different set of equipment that's
being used.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Right, But it's like a movie that's playing, and you're
able to see enough of it to write down like
very specific cryptic things.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It's a moment that exists outside of time. You could
say that you continually return to. It's always that moment
there are you know, Because we're dealing with divinity and spirituality,
the primary assumption is that the regular rules to some
degree do not apply.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Okay, okay, So that's how.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
We would explain it. Yeah, if we're taking the side
of the true believers. Scholars, true believers among them went
back and examined the prophecies at length lay before this
hit the most recent news cycle, and they said, okay,
hold on, so we know this doesn't begin with the
very first popes. It starts in eleven thirty nine, and
(25:30):
it's right about that prediction, and it's right about every
other prediction up to fifteen ninety, depending on how you
interpret it. It's more specific than everything post fifteen ninety.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
And yet after fifteen ninety, as prophecies often lead to,
there becomes more vagary, which opens it up to even
further interpretation and reinterpretation and potentially politicization. You know, the
idea of turning this prophecy towards a particular end depending
on who's doing the interpreting.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Right, Imagine going from abing someone very specifically, like this
is Josiah Williams Wilkerson, and this will be the pope
this time, and then as you get further into the future,
it's like there's a guy associated with olives.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You gotta believe me, Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it sounds.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Like a specific example.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes, you are a very recent one, at least in
for our history, but it feels as though it becomes
horoscopes for a potential human being, right, and like you
could pull anything from that concept of olives apply it
to the person who was elected, right, yeah, yeah, I
(26:46):
mean it could be anything in their life.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I like I think that's important to I also like
the analogy of a rorshack, right, it's a psychological rorshack painting, right,
what do you see? What does this word mean in
this context? And that's the interpreters and champions of this work.
They say they will, they will argue the prophecy does
(27:08):
contain specific predictions that cannot be denied, including the more
recent predictions or what we think of. So maybe it's
helpful to check out a few examples here. Let's go
to the olive thing. Pope Benedict, the one hundred and
eleventh Pope, the one hundred and eleventh Pope. Malachi predicts
one one one will be called gloria olive, meaning glory
(27:32):
to the olive. Okay, that's not the same thing as Benedict.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
But wait, but wait, well, yeah, the Saints of Benedict,
they are directly associated with olives.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
In fact, yeah, known as the Olivitants o Livitants. The
Order of Saint Benedict. Yeah they have they have another name.
And so for some researchers, you say, Pope Benedict came
from this orders associated with it, therefore is associated with olives. Therefore,
this is bringing glory to the olive. Therefore this prophecy
(28:06):
is correct. You can see a second example. We'll just
do like two more. One that I think really stood
out a lot to all of us is the idea
of de la borre Solis from the labor of the Sun.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
So it's possible that this maybe a reference to Pope
John Paul the second, who was born during a solar eclipse. Again,
was this a coincidence or divine providence? It depends on
who you ask, Right, one person's coincidence to your point,
Ben here in the outline, is another person's just absolute,
unimpeachable evidence. So we've got another example in Peregrinus Apostolicus,
(28:45):
and that is often linked with Pope Paul the sixth,
who was quite the world traveler who traveled extensively throughout
his career.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, can we.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Do a couple more, because sure, as many as you like.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I want to show the difference between the what was
the fifteen ninety fifteen ninety so pre fifteen ninety five,
you've got Pope John the twenty second and the motto.
The translation of the motto to English is from the
bony shoemaker and he was the son of a dang shoemaker. Okay,
that's pretty good, but that's in thirteen sixteen to thirteen
(29:21):
thirty four. That's when John the twenty second was there.
But then you go to Pope Urban or Urbane. I
think it's Urban the eighth. This is sixteen twenty three
to sixteen forty four, So that's after the period of accuracy. Right,
it translates to Lily and rose and guess what's on
the coat of arms for this person? Lily's and roses
(29:44):
something that's on the coat of arms versus the son
of a shoemaker. I don't know how you judge either
of those two things as being like super accurate or
not meaningful. Right, it's tough for me.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Again, there's no one, especially fifteen ninety, even pre fifteen ninety,
there's no one saying this guy's name is specifically this
he's this tall, his include, Yeah, he's got a weird
mole and you can find you know, it's on his armpit.
Just ask him. That's the Pope. This is that's a
(30:20):
weird conversation to have with his holiness. But still, you know,
with these examples, we can see how, especially in the
increasingly vague descriptions of more recent popes. Interpreters can get
accused of grasping a cognitive straws, but there's a point
we have to hit. It's super important. In all fairness,
(30:40):
they don't have much to go on from the original prophecy,
not a ton of bio details right, specific towns and
so on. You might have to use as little as
a single three word phrase to find a solid connection.
But on the other side of this, there are a
lot of things to connect too, because popes are some
of the most famous, well documented people in their society
(31:04):
right regardless of the time in which you're living, we
know a lot about their lives, especially the more modern ones.
So if you are looking for a positive interpretation to
justify the prophecy to yourself as accurate, you have a
lot more to pull from because these guys are obsessively
researched and surveilled, you know what I mean. You could
(31:26):
argue that it is going to be devilishly easy to
call the next pope Peter the Roman just because we
will know everything about the next pope and we can
be like, oh, Peter, it's an acronym, or you know,
this guy went to Rome one time.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
These prophecies are always so fun, especially when they don't
come true, and then you have to see people kind
of scrambling to explain why you know, I no, no, no, no,
it was because this didn't quite happen.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
We missed this mistage. Just wait for it, wait for it.
It's totally going to happen.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
It's coming, guys. I think this is a good point
to bring this up to. It's something that I did
not know at all. Anti popes.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yes, this is first for me. I'm gonna be completely surprised. Guys.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
I don't know about the anti pope, but I can
maybe conjecture.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
But well, Noel, here, here you go. If you hear
the word anti pope, what conjures in your mind Antichrist? Okay,
that's I hear that too, especially associated with the Catholic Church. Right,
Anti in front of something, it's not good. But what
if it's an anti pope.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
It's it's oh, the church is term.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
It's purposely meant to cast dispersion and sound double plus
on good. Right. I can't remember which church that's from,
but I think that's here. Yeah, the antipo So people
have often vied for this position, especially before the rise
of secular thought as a widely accepted thing. Everybody wanted
to be the pope. Now, yes, like you're king for God,
(32:56):
you know what I mean. The other monarchs are only
worldly monarchs, so they got to jump when you say jump,
So why wouldn't you want to be the pope? That
means this tells us a little bit about why the
conclave has these very strict traditionalist rules. There were a
lot of people who said, yeah, I'm the pope.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, but people who actually gained some power and some
following who would then do things that the pope does,
but in a different part of the world usually. So
imagine there's a pope in you know, the Holy Roman
Catholic Church there in Rome. But then there's another pope
in Germany who says, well, I'm actually the pope and
(33:38):
is practicing as the pope. And this is guys. I'm
reading that graphic novel The Secret History, and that's the
one that goes through basically history with a whole other
version of what history is. Right, But in there there's
a whole section about popes and anti popes, and it
was all political as a way to at least with
(33:59):
it's depicted in this stores there as a way to
put the Roman Empire, what's remaining of the Roman Empire
represented by the Catholic Church, versus like in this case,
like Germany right in the Germanic forces. It's interesting that
that's a real thing that was happening throughout history. There's
a huge list of them that the Catholic Church agrees, like, yeah,
these are all anti popes.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
A lot of people want the position and there can
only be one. The pope is highlander rules for sure,
and this this is the you know, I'm glad we're
bringing this up because this is an issue that can
cause schism in the church because if if you have, say,
two different people houlding themselves the pope at the same time,
(34:41):
and they both get a sizable number of followers and
a sizeable amount of geopolitical support, then this could destroy
the church, you know, it can set things into chaos well.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
And it's also a discrepancy within this prophecy because there
are anti popes included within the list here that's given
the allegedly given to us by Saint Malachi. And that's
where the interpretation gets off even further because some of
the antipopes. I guess it's unsure within people who are
translating it now and trying to interpret it now whether
(35:13):
or not a certain person included in that list is
an antipope or an actual pope. And then if it
is an antipope, does that throw off the number of
popes of like where we actually are in the list?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
More importantly, it also gives us more room for interpretation
and favorable interpretation. So if this one guy doesn't work out,
what about this other gay Ian? It's really an antipope.
So this is This is one of the things that
we return to often on this show in our strange
mission here, whether you're talking Nostradamus or Edgar Casey doomsday prophecies,
(35:47):
of which abound throughout history. The one thing we returned
to is prophecy is tricky. We're not being jerks when
we say it. We get it. Who does not want
to predict the future? It's an awesome superpower. DARPA is
working on it around the clock. But the issue is
you could argue psychological civilization as groups and individuals tend
(36:07):
to prize prediction retroactively. You like to remember the stuff
that one way or another did come true, and your
brain is heavily incentivized to kind of ignore the other
incorrect attempts at prediction. So like, if you wake up
one day and you say it's going to be a
bad day, the first car I see outside of my
house is going to be a Honda Odyssey. You're not
(36:29):
going to remember all the times it wasn't. You're going
to remember the one time you open the door you
saw Honda Odyssey and you went, it's like men for you.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
I just imagine you walk intrough the neighborhood and there's
like a Honda Odyssey just peaks out from behind a
bush and then sort of dutch back. Then you know,
it just follows you. Man, I get it. Here is
real psychology. Yeah, and thank you for your support. Of
course that way here, But that like doesn't make sense.
It's a bad analogy on my part, But it seems
like we don't care for it. When a prophecy is
(36:58):
only partially true, it's an all or nothing endeavor. So
if everybody agrees, hey, this one people prediction is a stretch,
it's incorrect, then it couldn't mean Malachi had a typo
on that one line and got ninety nine percent of
everything else dead on and calls everything into question. So
it is crucial. We're heavily incentivized to believe the entire thing,
(37:20):
each and every prediction is somehow on the money, and
we just have to interpret what Malachi is writing correctly. Oh,
and the Church has not officially co signed this prophecy.
They're not formally endorsed it. They haven't called it heretical.
You're not going to get in trouble for mentioning it
if you're a cardinal, but they haven't formally championed it.
(37:42):
And medical meaning a form of heresy, Yeah, yeah, against
the church.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
You're not going to stay t Yeah, you won't get
in trouble for bringing it up in meetings. But I
don't know it. Also another just a forensic aspect of it.
If this is the biggest thing that happened to mal
in his life, why don't his contemporaries know much about it?
Why don't they mention it the people who are around
at the same time? Right? Was it kept top secret
(38:10):
until after his death? Did did God provide this deep insight,
this cheat coat, this game genie to the future of
the church and then say at the very end, oh,
by the way, don't tell anyone. And he's like, what
really good? And he's like, yeah, not till like.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And make make sure somebody else writes it in their book,
not you. Somebody else is gonna like take this stuff
and then just put in their book.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Well, God, can I can I at least give like
specific names and dates? Now get weird with it?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Well, what was the name of the book that this
showed up in?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, we're talking off air for a second. It's important
to note this wasn't published on its own. It is
published as part of Arnold Wyons work Linkedum Vitae. Yes,
so it's a smaller part of a larger work.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's so weird, we'll just throw it in there.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Guys, can it be a whole book? God?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Absolutely No, it's a pamphlett.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Putting in we're putting in this other book. I'm sorry
I shouted because I'm supposed to whisper. I'm a small
still voice. So anyway, not to not to have too
much fun with God, but hopefully God enjoys these joke
every now and then. Look, especially because we're talking about
some serious high stakes here. Maybe we pause for a
(39:39):
word from our sponsors. Then we talked through some of
the theories and speculations surrounding this, not all of which relies
on the concept of divinity. All right, we're back. This
one is for the skeptics in the crowd. All right,
we're just gonna be fair talking with every So, if
(40:01):
you were listening to this episode tonight and you kind
of want to throw away the whole prophecy concept, just
throw it out as humbug and hogwash, ask yourself this,
what if cardinals electing popes post fifteen ninety five were
in some way or another influenced simply by knowing about
the list?
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Oh well, guys, I was going to bring up a
LinkedIn in the chat.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
There.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
There is a pretty fascinating article on the National Catholic
Register Nine Things you need to Know about how Cardinals
actually vote in conclaves, And there's just some very interesting
little details, one of which it definitely gets into what
you're talking about them, one of which I thought I
had to mention, why is the first ballot significant and
(40:46):
why will it likely never yield.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
An actual result?
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Also, why if the cardinals are electing their choice, their
number one choice, do their votes change over time? You
know as this this cycle, you know, kind of rinses
and repeats.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Yeah, because it's about building consensus, right as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Here's like, hold on, yeah, the what do they call
the I said, the name of them, the guys that
come through and they tally the scrutineers.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
The scrutineers.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
The scrutineers don't sit there and announce how many votes
each person got because they burn all the ballots, right, right,
So everybody just kind of throws their name out there
in that first ballot, and then they the scrutiniers come
back and say, no, we don't have to, but.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
They do talk to each other.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, that's exactly right. I just say, yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
The first point here, why is the first ballot significant?
It says it is the first time that the cardinals
get the.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Lay of the land in a concrete way.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Up to this point, they have had discussions amongst themselves
about who would be a good pope, and they have
done some informal nose counting to get a sense of
how much support there may be for different candidates. Now, however,
they get actual vote counts and attach numbers to how
much support different candidates have. All This is reflected in
that film as well.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, it'd be like forty something for Wilke acshally Yep,
that's in the.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Film conclim Okay, I didn't understand. They announced the vote.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
But they don't announce whose person voted.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
But the stats are very important because at the end
of the day, you want a winner, winner.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
As soon as possible, right, less chaos rain. But also
they can't say who voted for who because then, you know,
imagine how much of a jerk you sound like if
they say Wilkerson votes for Wilkerson. That's right, you know
what I mean. Well, that's not a good look.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
But I'm not mistaken in Conclave as well. Sorry to
keep harping on. That really is quite good. There is
a way, by process of elimination where you kind of.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Do start to realize who's voting for who one hundred percent. Yeah,
especially after repeated votes, right and repeated conversations. Now, going
back to what we're saying about the psychology the point
we're saying earlier about skeptics in the out, I'm really
interested in this idea that cardinals, especially post fifteen ninety five,
may have been influenced by knowing about the list. By knowing,
(43:11):
you know, according to this prophecy, whoever comes out of
this conclave as the pope is somehow referenced by this
you know, this phrase about olives or what have you.
So what if you are one of the front runners
to become the next pope? Right, and everybody in the
conclave and in these conversations looks around and says, dang,
(43:31):
this guy does have that whole solar eclipse thing going on.
I guess I should vote for him. We also don't
know whether cardinals say, dang, it would be cool. I
do like that, but I don't know if you know,
I don't know if you're allowed to.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
The vote comes through forty four votes for Peter Bolin.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Dang, So this is I mean, this is this is
completely possible though, right guys. And if it is possible,
that would mean the prophecy kind of works, It kind
of functions at least in that it becomes self fulfilling.
So in that case, to believe in the prophecy, we
don't really need to believe in divine intervention and guidance
(44:13):
so much as psychology and like good old PR, good
old public relations.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You know what, I mean, yeah, it is all about
it is all about the politics. After the vote ends
and everybody goes back, they go back to Saint Martha's house,
that's where all the cardinals stay in this time. And
then they will, you know, make their way back over
to the Systeine Chapel. Door locks and they get started again.
It just makes you wonder what little combos happened at
Saint Martha's.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
What did they talk about at lunch? You know what
I mean? Also, what's on the menu. I'm so curious
about that. So, speaking of skeptics, let's reframe our perspective
just a little bit. If we imagine this prophecy to
not just be incorrect, but what if we imagine it
as a purposeful falsehood, a known forgery. Then our question becomes,
(44:59):
why would you do you bother writing it in the
first place? And this is where we go to some
pretty interesting theories from folks who are themselves inside the church.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
So the leading theory goes all the way back to
a character we've already mentioned.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
A character is a human person, Arnold weon? Why on? Perhaps?
So let's go to M. J.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
O'Brien, who wrote an historical and critical account of the
so called prophecy of Saints Malachi regarding the succession of popes.
As you can imagine the eighteen eighty Yes, highly descriptive,
yet somehow highly vague and a little shady, you know,
little snark coded.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yes, indeed, let's hear about this so called prophecy. Yes
do it?
Speaker 3 (45:39):
So called is like never a compliment in English?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Never it is.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
It's like you, who do you think you are? Mister?
We'd like to award the so called pulitzer to blah
blah blah exactly you. So these so called writers.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I hear a Baptist minister in Atlanta, it's like this
so called prophecy.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Ye tender is the implication? Right?
Speaker 4 (45:58):
So O'Brien himself a pre just maybe where he's coming from.
On this notes that the verses why I'm published, as
well as the interpretations, correspond quite closely to an earlier
historical account of the popes written by a friar by
the name of Onofrio Ponvino in fifteen fifty seven called
Epitome Romanorum Pontificum or A Brief History of the Roman Pontiffs.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic because these two works correspond
so closely that the prophecy why On discovers and publishes it,
contains some of the same exact errors as an Offrio's work,
which happened earlier. So does God just want everybody to
(46:43):
keep making the same factual errors.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
No, maybe it's the same vision and had the same issues.
It was just given out to a couple different people. Maybe, well,
you know know, ster domis yea also.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Apparently all right, I'm sure he did.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Look well, I don't know exactly because I can't confirm it.
I'm reading it in things like Economic Times and the
New York Post.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
But no one has anyone hit us with the specific patray.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Well, I'm trying to find them, but it looks like
it's pulled directly from the prophecy of the Pope's writing. Okay,
I'll give you a quote that's in a New York
Post article. It says Nostra Damus wrote, quote, through the
death of a very old pontiff, a Roman of good
age will be elected of him. It will be said
that he weakens his see as in the Holy See,
(47:31):
but long will he sit and in biting activity. And
then this is the quote that I think is directly
from the other one. And but again they are saying
this is no Stra Damis writing. But I couldn't find
the original Nostradamus text, but it says quote that Noster
Damis said, in the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church,
there will sit Pete the Roman sounds exactly like the
(47:54):
prophecy already, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations?
When these things are finished, the city of seven Hills
will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Pas, yes, sure, his sheep.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think that's from the from the prophecy, like I
think that's a direct pull quote from the Prophecy, not
from Nostra Damis and misattributed earlier.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
There's a lot of repeted little lines. I mean, you know,
it's flavor. It's ten to ten exact quote we had.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
So it feels to me like it's a misattribution. But
if you're online just looking for this stuff, you may
run across that and think, oh wait, Nostra Damas said that.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
There's some slight variations, right the pasture the flock. Isn't
that a little different or is it complete?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
One to one? It's no, you're right, it's it's a
little bit different. Let's real quick, folks, we have to
say this. Nostra Damas was born in fifteen oh three
died around fifteen sixty six, so before the Prophecy was published.
He also did not write in English.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
And did Malachi neither did wild yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
This is allegedly according to The New York Post from
a fifteen fifty five publication titled Le Profities.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Ah. Okay, yes, that makes sense because no Stra Damis
was French, so that part checks out.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Boom, all right, to solve it.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
So okay, wait, though, if this is the case, if
Malachi doesn't write this, or if Malachi or why on
maybe pulls from Nostradamus and from other extant works at
the time, If he was cribbing from existing sources, why
would he bother? Was it just like a boring afternoon
at the monastery? They didn't have UFC you know what
(49:42):
I mean, they didn't have cable? So or is there
a conspiracy at play? This goes back to the point
about self fulfilling prophecy and pr Yes, right, this is
where we see you know, politics or politics wherever you go.
So how could politics play a role in prophecy or
how could switch it? How could prophecy play a role
in politics? Oh?
Speaker 4 (50:03):
I mean, gosh, it's just the religion in and of
itself is such a powerful tool of control. Not sure
if you guys have seen heretic the recent kind of
what do you call it?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Elevated horror?
Speaker 4 (50:15):
Sure, And it's this idea of how belief and religion
in general are ultimately tools of control. And that's where
the Catholic Church and their political cachet I think, really
comes into play here. But prophecy and politics have often
been hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
It's all belief, man, You think that's air your breathing neo?
Speaker 3 (50:39):
Did you know Puritans were against forks? They hated forks
because they were too like pitchfork. They felt they were ungodly.
Who were hanging with aj Bahamas Jacobs and he told
us about Puritans being against forks.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Or it removes you from your food.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
That's true. So you know, it's how do they feel
about shovel? How do they feel about soup? You know
what I mean? Oh?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
God?
Speaker 3 (51:04):
Anyway, over the centuries, particularly with one guy, you'll see
quoted often or refer too often a seventeenth century priest
named Louis Moreri. People have argued the prophecy came about
not as divine guidance, but instead as a cynical internal
move for power. Louis and others like him believe that
(51:24):
the conspiracy takes place during the conclave to replace Pope
Urban seventh in fifteen ninety and that there was a
faction of people who are supporting a guy named Cardinal
Girolamo Samonchelli, and they started spreading the word about the
prophecy to help make it look like he was chosen
by God to be the next pope. But this has
(51:47):
issues just to be fair, because why on publish this
in fifteen ninety five. So for this conspiracy to be real,
it would have to mean that Arnold had already known
the like it had already been lost and rediscovered, and
everyone inside the church was aware of it before it
was officially published. That timeline is, as Gollum would say, tricksy.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
Oh yes, So let's just say, for the sake of argument,
that it was known internally, in which case it does
make sense that someone might have looked to the prophecy,
even if formally unacknowledged, as you put it so succinctly,
Ben in your notes here, and you know, see whether
or not it supported their particular political cause or their agenda,
(52:35):
or how they feel that their constituents are being served. Right,
So politics, at the end of the day, are politics,
however sacred or profane.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
It's the prophecy and the archives, the archives, find my
precious find my secret archives.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
Question, quick question. I'm a cardinal, yes, yeah, a big
fan of your prophecies and stuff. My question is how
can I make this about me? And see?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
So all right, nobody there is a Vatican Secret Archives
that could contain Saint Malachi's original writings of this prophecy
that were then found and included in this other book.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, But it's also in addition
to that, the Vatican Secret Archives. Check out our episode
and our video on that secret doesn't quite mean for
the Vatican what secret means for us for us outsiders.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Well, you got to know what's in there.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
You got to know exactly what you're asking for. You
can't go in. It's not target shopping with vibes. You
can't go in and say give me something more, you know,
like give me something sick on witches or like church schisms,
nanti popes, they'll you'll have to go in and say
I need specifically this title and as by this person.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
It is interesting, though, I have what if somebody did
know about Malachi and just ask for something writings of Malachi? Right, Yeah,
you could theoretically go in there and look for that.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
And people have tried, you know what I mean. But also,
the Vatican doesn't really have what we would call foya request.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
The lexus and nexus thing.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
Yeah, Freedom of Information Act is not a not a thing.
So in any case, whatever we feel about this conspiracy theory,
the prophecypr did not work. The cardinal in question samon Celli.
He loses the election. The second Conclave of fifteen ninety
sees a guy named Gregory elected to replace Pope Urban
(54:43):
the seventh, and maybe that's where we leave it. We
don't know who will become the next pope. As we
record here on Monday, April twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.
The conclave is set to begin on May seventh, twenty
twenty five, So.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Very theoretically today.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Right if this publishes on time and still look, here's
the thing. It's no question that we all live in frightening,
chaotic time, so of course people want safety, security, predictability.
Whether or not you personally believe in this prophecy, other prophecies,
or the concept of prophecy in general, you can't really
blame people for wanting pattern in order to the universe
(55:20):
because the alternative, like our pal Dan Harmon always says,
is the alternative is there's no one at the wheel,
and that's more frightening than almost any conspiracy out there,
not even Jesus. I mean, it depends on how you feel.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
So wait, because maybe maybe you can't be over eighty
as a cardinal to vote because you're just ready for
the end times.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
You're just saying, maybe you're too quick for the trigger.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, you're just like, you know what, Just go ahead
and bring in the bad guy, whoever it is.
Speaker 3 (55:48):
I have my time. Yeah, I'm purposely voting for an
anti pope.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
I'm done. I'm God.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Oh that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4 (55:57):
Though, Could there potentially within this system be like a
dark horse kind of agent of chaos?
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yes, And there can be situations where people seem cardinals
are at loggerheads for one reason, or another. Yet the
stability and sanctity of the church is ever the priority.
So the concept is that eventually people will come together
and make the correct choice. They'll do what is godly immoral.
(56:25):
But before we call this humbug and hogwash again, guys,
out of the nine front runners set to succeed Pope
Francis right now on April twenty eighth, three of them
are named Peter.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
It's too real us coming out coming out from the
other side. Guys, I'm here in whispers right now that
a lot of the more conservative church leaders are looking
at this guy, Cardinal Robert Sarrah of Guinea, that they
want and he would be the first black pope right right.
Speaker 3 (57:01):
And there's a there's also a guy, I want to say,
a Filipino cardinal in the broad Yes, yeah, it would.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
It would be amazing if we saw like a full
on change to the face of the Catholic Church like
it does. It doesn't matter what prophecies are out there.
That would be just cool as heck.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Yeah. But to do that, he'd have to again beat
Peter Urdo. He'd have to beat Uh. Let's see, where
are the other Peters? Uh, I don't know if Pietro counts.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Well, yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (57:27):
Yeah, and so h then of course Peter code will
Apia Turksen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
And it all depends on are the cardinals voting with
the prophecy on purpose.
Speaker 3 (57:42):
Or do they reject it as so many other members
of the church have they believe it's it's hogwashed themselves.
I don't know this makes you think, folks. We hope
we've done. We hope we've been fair. We have had
a little bit of good hearted levity, but it is,
you know, it's a time of great tragedy for Catholics
across the planet. We want to hear your thoughts, Catholic
(58:04):
or non Catholic alike, both about the prophecy of the
popes and about prophecy in general. So find us online,
give us a call, drop us a good old fashioned email. Oh,
by all means please do.
Speaker 4 (58:14):
You can find us at the handle of conspiracy Stuff,
where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Here's where it gets crazy, get.
Speaker 4 (58:21):
In all the pope talk, the conclave chat there among
that group of a.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Lovely conspiracy realists.
Speaker 4 (58:27):
You can also find us that handle on x FKA,
Twitter and on YouTube with video content. Galora for your
perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, where conspiracy stuff
show and there's more.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, it is a
voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname,
and say within the message if we can use your
name and message on the air, call us, tell us
who you think is going to be the next pope,
or just call us for any reason whatsoever. If you
(59:01):
don't like using your phone, why not instead send us
a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (59:05):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
writes back, as a matter of fact, I'm gidding, I
can see it.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
I can see it.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
The fog rolls in the Viking will write to us,
what are we talking about? What did we just predict?
There's one way to find out.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Maybe he's the new pope?
Speaker 3 (59:28):
What do we just predict? There's one way to find out.
Join us a step further from the light conspiracy at
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Speaker 2 (59:54):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
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Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. But riddle me this,
friends and neighbors, who's not here? If you guess Pope Francis,
you are correct? Ouch damn rip the Pope. Yes. Pope
(00:53):
Francis passed away on April twenty first, twenty twenty five.
The official cause for the Vatican is a and cardiac
arrest after you know, known continuing complications with double pneumonia
a respiratory tract infection. These can be very dangerous things,
especially for people who are getting up in years. He
(01:14):
had a life well lived. He passed at the age
of eighty eight, and he had been you know, like
we said, he had been struggling for some time leading
up to his passage. And I don't know, guys, we
talked about this off air. We mentioned this in a
Strange News segment a while back, or pretty recently actually,
(01:35):
And I think it's fair to say that although we
are not ourselves practicing Catholics, we do acknowledge the global
grief felt by billions of people in the wake of
the pope's death. Well, he was like a meaningful pope too.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I was talking to my friend Harry, a friend of
the show who's visiting me, and I was like, this
is the good pope, right, this is the one that
I think even average folks seemed to know about and acknowledge.
For his somewhat progressive ideas around many things relating to Catholicism,
did very important work in rectifying or at the very
least addressing some of the horrible cases of abuse who
(02:14):
folks have suffered under the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, social activists as well for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And now, if you're listening to this on the day
it comes out, in the Vatican, within the Sistine Chapel,
all the cardinals that are eligible have gathered up. Today
they begin the quest to make a new pope.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
This a questered quest. The conclave begins on May seventh.
We are recording this on Monday, April twenty eighth. We were,
you know, we had a conversation off air folks about
timing of this, whether we should wait for the new
pope to be officially chosen until we get the you know,
(02:59):
the signals of smoke from the Vatican, which is the
traditional way of announcing the election of a new pope
with that new pope smell sure, sure, And what we
wanted to do instead was to respond to a lot
of correspondence we've received with questions, commentary, and interpretations about
(03:19):
what this this passage means for the world ahead. And
one of the strangest related concepts that comes back into
the news anytime a new pope must be elected is
something called the prophecy of Saint Malachi, also known as
the prophecy of the Popes.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And we're going to get into what exactly that means
and consists of. Right after a quick word from a sponsor, here.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Are the facts, all right. There are a lot of
saints in Catholicism. There are a lot of formally recognized saints,
right canonized, and then there are a lot of what
we call folk saints, which is a result of centuries
of religious syncretism. Right, and this guy, Saint Malachi is
(04:12):
an official Catholic saint. I've got it here in the notes.
His real baptismal name is kind of hard to pronounce.
We know that he was born in ten ninety four
in Northern Ireland, but a lot of his early life
has lost to history. He's, perhaps in Catholicism, best known
(04:33):
as the first native born Irish saint. Does anyone want
to tackle his baptismal name or do we just want
to spell it?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Spell?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes? Okay, I'm with you there, Matt. He is baptized
as m a l mhao dhog space ua space morgaar
r gai r Right there. You say about that, that's
(05:06):
how we're going to say. Okay, cool, that's how we're
going to say it. I don't we don't want to
be disrespectful. Is Gaelic the word? How would you pronounce it?
How would you pronounce mal malma dog? That's pretty good.
I don't know is this Gaelic?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Though?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It has to be. It's a lot of contents and uhs,
we're going to call it Malick. Okay, fair enough. We
know he didn't have as so many children. Uh then
and now I've experienced. He didn't have the best of childhoods.
His father passed away. His father was a teacher, and
his father passed away when Malachi was only seven years old.
(05:45):
And then later when his mother passes away, he gets
into a mentorship follower position with a holy recluse, living
near a cathedral, living in a cell like anchorte, like
a hermit. Whoa okay.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So he became a priest in eleven nineteen and rose
up through the ranks to become a bishop in eleven
thirty two, and then he passed away in eleven forty eight.
In his life, throughout his life he was known for
this idea of restoring discipline with some liberals around that
whatever that means, it's a little vague to the area
(06:24):
that was under his care. People felt at the time
the church had grown a bit lax, had sort of
lost its way a bit, perhaps was not adjusting or
reacting to some of the chaos of the time, and
he was sort of looked at as bringing the church
up to date to reinstill kind of that sense of
(06:45):
spiritual discipline into a world gone awry.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And his later biographer, Bernard of Clairvaux, would write an
entire book about this man, because that's what biographers do.
He calls this work the Life of Saint Malachi or
just Life of Saint Malachi, and in this he describes
pretty much what you're talking about. No, he says, Malachi
was known for his obedience to God, his discipline to
(07:13):
the church and doctrine, as well as his humility and meekness.
So in modern parlance, he made church cool again. He
made the sacrament cool again. He was renewing belief at
a time when many people in the area were questioning
the importance and the authority of the church, not just
(07:35):
as a secular institution, but as a spiritual belief system.
And we have to remember, you know, there are a
lot of other religions still around at the time in
that area.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh yeah, and everybody's buying to get new followers to
you know, to all of the different religions. It's very important.
You need more human beings to go out and do
the work for the church, slash the gathering, slash whatever
it is, got.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
To grow flock maybe, yeah, because we have to remember
it's still the case now in modern evenings, but back then,
spiritual power and approval of a spiritual system was pretty
much the same thing as acquiring political power. Oh gosh, yes,
you know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Do you think the Catholic Church is as influential today
as it was in the past, or as it eroded
a bit in terms of its political capital.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's interesting. That reminds me very much of the recent funeral,
which is part of why we held off on recording
this episode of the Blue Suit. Oh the Yeah, the
current US president were a suit that was apparently too
light in color for some dress codes. But I'm thinking
more about just the entirety of the world leaders, many
(08:51):
people who would ordinarily not be in the same room together.
I bet you saw it too, Matt, the anti drone
technology in play. Did you see those? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
It's such a security risk to have all as.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Me, Oh yeah, in my mind, guys, I'm trying to
formulate this thought. I don't think the Catholic Church has
as much power as it maybe once did in the
minds of individuals. To me, and this may be fully wrong,
but to me, the spiritual nature of someone was a
big part of their identity. I'm not saying that it's
(09:27):
not that way anymore. But maybe it was stronger, a
stronger piece of individual identity for WHI. And now the
power that the Catholic Church wields the Roman Empire as
a religion is monetary to me, just because of the
amount of money that has been flowing through and growing
right over all of these centuries.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Shout out to the Black Pope, right.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And all the anti popes that I didn't even know about.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yes, yeah, and shout out to of course our friends
at the Vatican Bank, Opus day and night, Tamalta, the Jasuitz. Look,
I think to that question, what's really interesting about it
is that you could argue, yes, there is growing secularism,
especially in Europe and the Mediterranean overall, just across time. However,
(10:18):
the reach of the Catholic Church it's global. You know,
we're talking Latin America, we're talking the Philippines when like
the biggest Asiatic country or Asian country that practices Catholicism.
So maybe the influence has evolved or shifted, but it's
still a huge deal, whether we're talking spiritually or for
(10:40):
the atheist in the crowd. Simply geopolitically and financially, the
pope is one of the most important figures in the world.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely, guys. Before we get into the
next section here, which is really what this episode's all about,
can we just briefly talk about the process, just explain
the process of selecting a pope, because I think to me,
that's what's so astonishing about the potential feat of predicting
(11:10):
how this whole process would actually work out and then
doing that over and over and over and over again
in a single book, like we're going to talk about
in the next section. So if we don't mind, just
I'd like to talk about what the actual conclave is
and how it functions, because it is pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Well, and speaking of the predictability of it, I would
be interested in keeping an eye on betting markets around
the next trope is going to be, because you know
they're out there. But I also will mention again I
think we said it in our previous conversation, maybe it
was on Strange News about the film Conclave and how
the downloads of it are through the roof, because a
lot of people want to know about this process, and
(11:48):
the timing couldn't be better for the creators of that
excellent film, and it does show in great detail how
the process works.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
So let's go through that now. I actually started reading
that novel too that the film based on it, and
I was really impressed with the author, Robert Harris. So
far I haven't finished it, but he put boots on
the grounds. Yeah, and he went to the Vatican and
they walked him through the process. So it is there's
a lot of Conclave is of course a film, right,
(12:19):
not a documentary, but it does have a lot of
factual insights into the real life process of the cardinals
and the conclict.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And the perspective is need because you kind of feel
like a fly on the wall. You're trapped in there
with them, So there is that. It's certainly an experiential film.
I highly recommend it.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
So let's spend a few minutes on the process.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, So let's say Pope passes away, as just happened,
and we need to choose a new pope. You have
to gather together all of the cardinals that exist, the
Catholic cardinals that are officially a part of the church.
There are seventy one countries on the planet that have
cardinals residing within them. You have to get all of
(13:01):
those cardinals by the way, there are one hundred and
thirty five eligible cardinals right now on the planet.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Out of two hundred and fifty two total yes.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And the reason why they're only one hundred and thirty
five eligible cardinals is because you have to be under
the age of eighty to go and be a part
of this conclave process.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
So let's pause there. Just think about the math of
the two hundred and fifty two. One hundred and thirty
five are young enough to vote.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yes, which just tells you about maybe cardinals are just old.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I mean it is a position of high authority, it is,
you know what I mean. It's not a right now.
I mean historically this wasn't always the case, but right
now you do have to kind of earn that position. Yeah,
you can't just be like a cardinal nepo baby, a
car nepo. But well in to not anymore, right, But
(13:55):
also the issue is maybe just to be fair travel concerns,
oh yeah, for people are quite elderly for.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Sure, and you know, who knows, if who knows what
you're going to do with your vote if you're almost
out of here already. I don't know the idea. I
think I think the idea is you make a decision
that a slightly younger person, even if you're still seventy nine,
you make a decision based on what's going to be
best for the church and or for humanity or whatever
(14:23):
that decision is based on.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But there are still constituencies, right, like, there are people
that these individual popes from their parts of the world represent,
and perhaps there might be difference maybe politically.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's yeahdred percent. Yeah, thought is everybody is going to
do what you know, follow tells them, Yeah, what what
the vision is?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What the Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just to
say that this process, though incredibly you know, rooted in
sacred tradition, is not immune from the trappings of politics.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
We'll talk about it. We'll talk about that in depth,
I think. But to your point, Matt, part of the
calculation not just safety of travel. Sure, that is at
best a tertiary concern. If we're being honest, it's holding
to tradition like you were saying, no voting in absentia,
And then I would argue, also, what I think we're
getting at here, Matt, is the idea that to vote
(15:21):
your conscience and God's will, you need to be young
enough to realize that it will still affect you. You
can't just vote and be out. There will be consequences
and ramifications within your lifetime for your part of the
church and the church overall.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
And yet it is a secret ballot, right, yes, yes,
everybody who can vote hangs out, hangs out, gets locked
inside the Systeine.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Chapel like a sequestered jury. Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
They write down in secret the name of their chosen
candidate and then buy rank because the cardinals are ranked. Right,
you go up and you put your vote piece of
paper into a sacramental urn. It's like a ceremonial urn.
Then there are three cardinals who are the Scrutineers. That's
their name. They tally all the ballots. Once they've counted them,
(16:15):
they burn all of them ballots, and so nobody knows
but the three scrutineers. And then if there is a
two thirds majority candidate chosen out of that vote, then
they light the white smoke and the Sistine Chapel and
everybody knows there's a new pope. If not, they hold
the vote again and again and.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Again again again, and it can go on for a while.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh dude, so Okay, so it goes on. There are
two votes in the morning and two votes in the afternoon, right,
black smoke every time. If no pope is chosen, then
they'll do that for three days straight. Then if no
pope has been chosen, they take a day off, and
then they go back and they do it again.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Off is really for networking politicking, Yes, in one's case,
that's what it's That's what it's for. And also, you
know this is going to be this is going to
be familiar to so many people, the Catholic and non
Catholic alike. There is a lot of old tradition here,
and some of it can frankly seem a little bit
(17:21):
extra in the parlance of our time, or perhaps a
little bit maybe silly or officious. But I would argue
as a non Catholic that it is incredibly important to
remember there's a reason they did. They're still doing stuff
this way, like the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment.
We're getting so far away from the point of this show.
(17:42):
But the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment after
his death, we didn't even talk about all the death
rituals is because people used to like rob the guy's apartment,
rob the papal apartment for reliqueries and objects of power.
They used to rob the graves, you know what I mean.
That's why there's a triple lined cat. Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, I just just to the point of being about
the show. I think all this stuff is important because
this is all this Imagine that process that we just
described and then the stakes that Ben just described there,
Like once a pope is out of the office, imagine
somebody having some kind of vision at some point and
writing down this vision where he saw every single pope
(18:24):
that's going to come into power for hundreds and hundreds
of years.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, if it was him, and this is.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Our if it was real, if any of us, if
this is.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Our segue back to Malachi, So we know just a
very little bit about him now today, for I would
say lay Catholic and non Catholics alike. Malachi is not
known for his living work in the Church. He's instead
known for a cryptic piece of writing we alluded to
at the top, generally called the Prophecy of the Popes.
(18:55):
Technically it's called Prophecy of Saint Archbishop Malachi Canning the
Supreme Pontiffs, the Bishop of Rome, the popes. It's weird
because it sounds like it's a book, but it's eleven
short sort of single line paragraphs and then two additional paragraphs.
There are multiple lines, and like you were saying, Matt,
it claims to be a divinely inspired guide to predict
(19:21):
the secession of one hundred and twelve total popes, starting
with Pope Celestine the second in eleven forty three, right
during the life of Saint Malachi, and then it goes
onward and at the very end there's a guy named
Petrus Romanus who is supposed to emerge as a final
(19:42):
figure after the one hundred and twelfth pope. So, according
to the tradition we're saying, Malachi is summoned to Rome
by the Pope at the time he sees the famous
seven Hills, and when he sees them for the first
time in his life, he falls to his knees. He
has this vision. It details every single poop who will
(20:03):
reign in the Catholic Church with that ending point a
guy named Petris Robantus. And I suggest we share an
English translation of what they say about Petrus because it's
pretty heavy.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
So here's a quote in the final persecution of the
Holy Roman Church. There will reign Peter the Roman, who
will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the
city of Seven Hills will be destroyed, and the Dreadful
Judge will judge the people. That's a that's a bit much.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Real end of days, you know, Oh boy, the return
of the anti Christ. Now have we ticked off any
of these boxes? Guys? Are we going to go through it?
Just how it's perceived? Okay, okay?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Hold on, is the Dreadful Judge? Is that God Christ?
Or is it God? It's God?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I think, how does one interpret? You know?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I mean, he doesn't specify, but but if it's going
by the Bible, right it's God, then it is like
the dude is coming. Because in Revelation, the only the
only being in existence that knows when the end of
times occurs, the Judgment Day occurs, is God himself. Not
(21:21):
even Jesus is aware.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
No, Jesus can only intercede yes on behalf of humanity
and the world. I mean, these are bold claims, and
we're talking about interpretation already. Those who believe the prophecy
is correct have serious and worriessome questions about what happens now.
The final pope is going to be the one hundred
(21:43):
and twelfth after whom we got this Peter the Robin
guy who leads the church through the tribulation period. But
things go terribly wrong. This is the time of judgment
and it may occur within your lifetime if you believe
that the one hundred and twelfth Pope was the recently
passed Pope Francis. So common interpretations will tell us that
(22:07):
Pope Francis is the one hundred and twelfth on Malachi's
list or Arnold's spoiler. We'll get to it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
So he would be pre Peter the Roman, Yeah, the
penultimate okay, so.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
But some people say he was Peter the Roman.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
And Peter the Roman again. Tea leaves interpretation. How does
this help you address the world? What happens next? Is
the world prepared? What do we know about this purported
prophecy and its claims? And what do we make of
the interpretations. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors
and then dive in. Here's where it gets crazy. All right,
(22:48):
Before we answer any of those questions, not to tease
everyone too much, we have to acknowledge that there's a
bag of badger's here because the prophecy is attributed to
Saint Malachi, said to be written in eleven thirty nine,
but it's first published much later. Okay, it's lost at
some point, and then it's rediscovered, and at some point
(23:08):
after its rediscovery it is published in fifteen ninety five
by a Benedictine monk named Arnold Wyld.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So almost four hundred and what fifty years later, I mean,
that's huh.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
The papal predictions up to fifteen ninety are super precise.
What up to when he publishes it, they're super odd point,
like bullseye. Every time it gets a little less precise,
you could argue increasingly less precise after fifteen ninety. This
would lead believers to say, well, maybe it's an imperfect
(23:47):
interpretation of a perfect prophecy, and skeptics would say imperfect
is just a fancier way of saying guessing.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, guys, I want to just do a quick thought experiment.
Imagine you are Saint Malachi right now, you look out
at those seven hills, you have this vision. Do you
have just some paper to start writing down in great
detail exactly what you saw, perhaps like gold tablets, but
like one hundred and twelve iterations of what you're seeing
(24:19):
in the moment.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Do a sketch? Maybe it's a good question. But also
one could argue that being like a divine a divine
revelation like this is encoded differently. Right, what if it's
burned into your brain?
Speaker 4 (24:35):
How could we possibly comprehend what that must be like?
It would be a whole different set of equipment that's
being used.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Right, But it's like a movie that's playing, and you're
able to see enough of it to write down like
very specific cryptic things.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It's a moment that exists outside of time. You could
say that you continually return to. It's always that moment
there are you know, Because we're dealing with divinity and spirituality,
the primary assumption is that the regular rules to some
degree do not apply.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Okay, okay, So that's how.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
We would explain it. Yeah, if we're taking the side
of the true believers. Scholars, true believers among them went
back and examined the prophecies at length lay before this
hit the most recent news cycle, and they said, okay,
hold on, so we know this doesn't begin with the
very first popes. It starts in eleven thirty nine, and
(25:30):
it's right about that prediction, and it's right about every
other prediction up to fifteen ninety, depending on how you
interpret it. It's more specific than everything post fifteen ninety.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
And yet after fifteen ninety, as prophecies often lead to,
there becomes more vagary, which opens it up to even
further interpretation and reinterpretation and potentially politicization. You know, the
idea of turning this prophecy towards a particular end depending
on who's doing the interpreting.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Right, Imagine going from abing someone very specifically, like this
is Josiah Williams Wilkerson, and this will be the pope
this time, and then as you get further into the future,
it's like there's a guy associated with olives.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You gotta believe me, Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it sounds.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Like a specific example.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes, you are a very recent one, at least in
for our history, but it feels as though it becomes
horoscopes for a potential human being, right, and like you
could pull anything from that concept of olives apply it
to the person who was elected, right, yeah, yeah, I
(26:46):
mean it could be anything in their life.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I like I think that's important to I also like
the analogy of a rorshack, right, it's a psychological rorshack painting, right,
what do you see? What does this word mean in
this context? And that's the interpreters and champions of this work.
They say they will, they will argue the prophecy does
(27:08):
contain specific predictions that cannot be denied, including the more
recent predictions or what we think of. So maybe it's
helpful to check out a few examples here. Let's go
to the olive thing. Pope Benedict, the one hundred and
eleventh Pope, the one hundred and eleventh Pope. Malachi predicts
one one one will be called gloria olive, meaning glory
(27:32):
to the olive. Okay, that's not the same thing as Benedict.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
But wait, but wait, well, yeah, the Saints of Benedict,
they are directly associated with olives.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
In fact, yeah, known as the Olivitants o Livitants. The
Order of Saint Benedict. Yeah they have they have another name.
And so for some researchers, you say, Pope Benedict came
from this orders associated with it, therefore is associated with olives. Therefore,
this is bringing glory to the olive. Therefore this prophecy
(28:06):
is correct. You can see a second example. We'll just
do like two more. One that I think really stood
out a lot to all of us is the idea
of de la borre Solis from the labor of the Sun.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
So it's possible that this maybe a reference to Pope
John Paul the second, who was born during a solar eclipse. Again,
was this a coincidence or divine providence? It depends on
who you ask, Right, one person's coincidence to your point,
Ben here in the outline, is another person's just absolute,
unimpeachable evidence. So we've got another example in Peregrinus Apostolicus,
(28:45):
and that is often linked with Pope Paul the sixth,
who was quite the world traveler who traveled extensively throughout
his career.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, can we.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Do a couple more, because sure, as many as you like.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I want to show the difference between the what was
the fifteen ninety fifteen ninety so pre fifteen ninety five,
you've got Pope John the twenty second and the motto.
The translation of the motto to English is from the
bony shoemaker and he was the son of a dang shoemaker. Okay,
that's pretty good, but that's in thirteen sixteen to thirteen
(29:21):
thirty four. That's when John the twenty second was there.
But then you go to Pope Urban or Urbane. I
think it's Urban the eighth. This is sixteen twenty three
to sixteen forty four, So that's after the period of accuracy. Right,
it translates to Lily and rose and guess what's on
the coat of arms for this person? Lily's and roses
(29:44):
something that's on the coat of arms versus the son
of a shoemaker. I don't know how you judge either
of those two things as being like super accurate or
not meaningful. Right, it's tough for me.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Again, there's no one, especially fifteen ninety, even pre fifteen ninety,
there's no one saying this guy's name is specifically this
he's this tall, his include, Yeah, he's got a weird
mole and you can find you know, it's on his armpit.
Just ask him. That's the Pope. This is that's a
(30:20):
weird conversation to have with his holiness. But still, you know,
with these examples, we can see how, especially in the
increasingly vague descriptions of more recent popes. Interpreters can get
accused of grasping a cognitive straws, but there's a point
we have to hit. It's super important. In all fairness,
(30:40):
they don't have much to go on from the original prophecy,
not a ton of bio details right, specific towns and
so on. You might have to use as little as
a single three word phrase to find a solid connection.
But on the other side of this, there are a
lot of things to connect too, because popes are some
of the most famous, well documented people in their society
(31:04):
right regardless of the time in which you're living, we
know a lot about their lives, especially the more modern ones.
So if you are looking for a positive interpretation to
justify the prophecy to yourself as accurate, you have a
lot more to pull from because these guys are obsessively
researched and surveilled, you know what I mean. You could
(31:26):
argue that it is going to be devilishly easy to
call the next pope Peter the Roman just because we
will know everything about the next pope and we can
be like, oh, Peter, it's an acronym, or you know,
this guy went to Rome one time.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
These prophecies are always so fun, especially when they don't
come true, and then you have to see people kind
of scrambling to explain why you know, I no, no, no, no,
it was because this didn't quite happen.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
We missed this mistage. Just wait for it, wait for it.
It's totally going to happen.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
It's coming, guys. I think this is a good point
to bring this up to. It's something that I did
not know at all. Anti popes.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yes, this is first for me. I'm gonna be completely surprised. Guys.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
I don't know about the anti pope, but I can
maybe conjecture.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
But well, Noel, here, here you go. If you hear
the word anti pope, what conjures in your mind Antichrist? Okay,
that's I hear that too, especially associated with the Catholic Church. Right,
Anti in front of something, it's not good. But what
if it's an anti pope.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
It's it's oh, the church is term.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
It's purposely meant to cast dispersion and sound double plus
on good. Right. I can't remember which church that's from,
but I think that's here. Yeah, the antipo So people
have often vied for this position, especially before the rise
of secular thought as a widely accepted thing. Everybody wanted
to be the pope. Now, yes, like you're king for God,
(32:56):
you know what I mean. The other monarchs are only
worldly monarchs, so they got to jump when you say jump,
So why wouldn't you want to be the pope? That
means this tells us a little bit about why the
conclave has these very strict traditionalist rules. There were a
lot of people who said, yeah, I'm the pope.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, but people who actually gained some power and some
following who would then do things that the pope does,
but in a different part of the world usually. So
imagine there's a pope in you know, the Holy Roman
Catholic Church there in Rome. But then there's another pope
in Germany who says, well, I'm actually the pope and
(33:38):
is practicing as the pope. And this is guys. I'm
reading that graphic novel The Secret History, and that's the
one that goes through basically history with a whole other
version of what history is. Right, But in there there's
a whole section about popes and anti popes, and it
was all political as a way to at least with
(33:59):
it's depicted in this stores there as a way to
put the Roman Empire, what's remaining of the Roman Empire
represented by the Catholic Church, versus like in this case,
like Germany right in the Germanic forces. It's interesting that
that's a real thing that was happening throughout history. There's
a huge list of them that the Catholic Church agrees, like, yeah,
these are all anti popes.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
A lot of people want the position and there can
only be one. The pope is highlander rules for sure,
and this this is the you know, I'm glad we're
bringing this up because this is an issue that can
cause schism in the church because if if you have, say,
two different people houlding themselves the pope at the same time,
(34:41):
and they both get a sizable number of followers and
a sizeable amount of geopolitical support, then this could destroy
the church, you know, it can set things into chaos well.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
And it's also a discrepancy within this prophecy because there
are anti popes included within the list here that's given
the allegedly given to us by Saint Malachi. And that's
where the interpretation gets off even further because some of
the antipopes. I guess it's unsure within people who are
translating it now and trying to interpret it now whether
(35:13):
or not a certain person included in that list is
an antipope or an actual pope. And then if it
is an antipope, does that throw off the number of
popes of like where we actually are in the list?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
More importantly, it also gives us more room for interpretation
and favorable interpretation. So if this one guy doesn't work out,
what about this other gay Ian? It's really an antipope.
So this is This is one of the things that
we return to often on this show in our strange
mission here, whether you're talking Nostradamus or Edgar Casey doomsday prophecies,
(35:47):
of which abound throughout history. The one thing we returned
to is prophecy is tricky. We're not being jerks when
we say it. We get it. Who does not want
to predict the future? It's an awesome superpower. DARPA is
working on it around the clock. But the issue is
you could argue psychological civilization as groups and individuals tend
(36:07):
to prize prediction retroactively. You like to remember the stuff
that one way or another did come true, and your
brain is heavily incentivized to kind of ignore the other
incorrect attempts at prediction. So like, if you wake up
one day and you say it's going to be a
bad day, the first car I see outside of my
house is going to be a Honda Odyssey. You're not
(36:29):
going to remember all the times it wasn't. You're going
to remember the one time you open the door you
saw Honda Odyssey and you went, it's like men for you.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
I just imagine you walk intrough the neighborhood and there's
like a Honda Odyssey just peaks out from behind a
bush and then sort of dutch back. Then you know,
it just follows you. Man, I get it. Here is
real psychology. Yeah, and thank you for your support. Of
course that way here, But that like doesn't make sense.
It's a bad analogy on my part, But it seems
like we don't care for it. When a prophecy is
(36:58):
only partially true, it's an all or nothing endeavor. So
if everybody agrees, hey, this one people prediction is a stretch,
it's incorrect, then it couldn't mean Malachi had a typo
on that one line and got ninety nine percent of
everything else dead on and calls everything into question. So
it is crucial. We're heavily incentivized to believe the entire thing,
(37:20):
each and every prediction is somehow on the money, and
we just have to interpret what Malachi is writing correctly. Oh,
and the Church has not officially co signed this prophecy.
They're not formally endorsed it. They haven't called it heretical.
You're not going to get in trouble for mentioning it
if you're a cardinal, but they haven't formally championed it.
(37:42):
And medical meaning a form of heresy, Yeah, yeah, against
the church.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
You're not going to stay t Yeah, you won't get
in trouble for bringing it up in meetings. But I
don't know it. Also another just a forensic aspect of it.
If this is the biggest thing that happened to mal
in his life, why don't his contemporaries know much about it?
Why don't they mention it the people who are around
at the same time? Right? Was it kept top secret
(38:10):
until after his death? Did did God provide this deep insight,
this cheat coat, this game genie to the future of
the church and then say at the very end, oh,
by the way, don't tell anyone. And he's like, what
really good? And he's like, yeah, not till like.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And make make sure somebody else writes it in their book,
not you. Somebody else is gonna like take this stuff
and then just put in their book.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Well, God, can I can I at least give like
specific names and dates? Now get weird with it?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Well, what was the name of the book that this
showed up in?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, we're talking off air for a second. It's important
to note this wasn't published on its own. It is
published as part of Arnold Wyons work Linkedum Vitae. Yes,
so it's a smaller part of a larger work.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's so weird, we'll just throw it in there.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Guys, can it be a whole book? God?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Absolutely No, it's a pamphlett.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Putting in we're putting in this other book. I'm sorry
I shouted because I'm supposed to whisper. I'm a small
still voice. So anyway, not to not to have too
much fun with God, but hopefully God enjoys these joke
every now and then. Look, especially because we're talking about
some serious high stakes here. Maybe we pause for a
(39:39):
word from our sponsors. Then we talked through some of
the theories and speculations surrounding this, not all of which relies
on the concept of divinity. All right, we're back. This
one is for the skeptics in the crowd. All right,
we're just gonna be fair talking with every So, if
(40:01):
you were listening to this episode tonight and you kind
of want to throw away the whole prophecy concept, just
throw it out as humbug and hogwash, ask yourself this,
what if cardinals electing popes post fifteen ninety five were
in some way or another influenced simply by knowing about
the list?
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Oh well, guys, I was going to bring up a
LinkedIn in the chat.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
There.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
There is a pretty fascinating article on the National Catholic
Register Nine Things you need to Know about how Cardinals
actually vote in conclaves, And there's just some very interesting
little details, one of which it definitely gets into what
you're talking about them, one of which I thought I
had to mention, why is the first ballot significant and
(40:46):
why will it likely never yield.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
An actual result?
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Also, why if the cardinals are electing their choice, their
number one choice, do their votes change over time? You
know as this this cycle, you know, kind of rinses
and repeats.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Yeah, because it's about building consensus, right as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Here's like, hold on, yeah, the what do they call
the I said, the name of them, the guys that
come through and they tally the scrutineers.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
The scrutineers.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
The scrutineers don't sit there and announce how many votes
each person got because they burn all the ballots, right, right,
So everybody just kind of throws their name out there
in that first ballot, and then they the scrutiniers come
back and say, no, we don't have to, but.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
They do talk to each other.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, that's exactly right. I just say, yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
The first point here, why is the first ballot significant?
It says it is the first time that the cardinals
get the.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Lay of the land in a concrete way.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Up to this point, they have had discussions amongst themselves
about who would be a good pope, and they have
done some informal nose counting to get a sense of
how much support there may be for different candidates. Now, however,
they get actual vote counts and attach numbers to how
much support different candidates have. All This is reflected in
that film as well.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, it'd be like forty something for Wilke acshally Yep,
that's in the.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Film conclim Okay, I didn't understand. They announced the vote.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
But they don't announce whose person voted.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
But the stats are very important because at the end
of the day, you want a winner, winner.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
As soon as possible, right, less chaos rain. But also
they can't say who voted for who because then, you know,
imagine how much of a jerk you sound like if
they say Wilkerson votes for Wilkerson. That's right, you know
what I mean. Well, that's not a good look.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
But I'm not mistaken in Conclave as well. Sorry to
keep harping on. That really is quite good. There is
a way, by process of elimination where you kind of.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Do start to realize who's voting for who one hundred percent. Yeah,
especially after repeated votes, right and repeated conversations. Now, going
back to what we're saying about the psychology the point
we're saying earlier about skeptics in the out, I'm really
interested in this idea that cardinals, especially post fifteen ninety five,
may have been influenced by knowing about the list. By knowing,
(43:11):
you know, according to this prophecy, whoever comes out of
this conclave as the pope is somehow referenced by this
you know, this phrase about olives or what have you.
So what if you are one of the front runners
to become the next pope? Right, and everybody in the
conclave and in these conversations looks around and says, dang,
(43:31):
this guy does have that whole solar eclipse thing going on.
I guess I should vote for him. We also don't
know whether cardinals say, dang, it would be cool. I
do like that, but I don't know if you know,
I don't know if you're allowed to.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
The vote comes through forty four votes for Peter Bolin.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Dang, So this is I mean, this is this is
completely possible though, right guys. And if it is possible,
that would mean the prophecy kind of works, It kind
of functions at least in that it becomes self fulfilling.
So in that case, to believe in the prophecy, we
don't really need to believe in divine intervention and guidance
(44:13):
so much as psychology and like good old PR, good
old public relations.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You know what, I mean, yeah, it is all about
it is all about the politics. After the vote ends
and everybody goes back, they go back to Saint Martha's house,
that's where all the cardinals stay in this time. And
then they will, you know, make their way back over
to the Systeine Chapel. Door locks and they get started again.
It just makes you wonder what little combos happened at
Saint Martha's.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
What did they talk about at lunch? You know what
I mean? Also, what's on the menu. I'm so curious
about that. So, speaking of skeptics, let's reframe our perspective
just a little bit. If we imagine this prophecy to
not just be incorrect, but what if we imagine it
as a purposeful falsehood, a known forgery. Then our question becomes,
(44:59):
why would you do you bother writing it in the
first place? And this is where we go to some
pretty interesting theories from folks who are themselves inside the church.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
So the leading theory goes all the way back to
a character we've already mentioned.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
A character is a human person, Arnold weon? Why on? Perhaps?
So let's go to M. J.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
O'Brien, who wrote an historical and critical account of the
so called prophecy of Saints Malachi regarding the succession of popes.
As you can imagine the eighteen eighty Yes, highly descriptive,
yet somehow highly vague and a little shady, you know,
little snark coded.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yes, indeed, let's hear about this so called prophecy. Yes
do it?
Speaker 3 (45:39):
So called is like never a compliment in English?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Never it is.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
It's like you, who do you think you are? Mister?
We'd like to award the so called pulitzer to blah
blah blah exactly you. So these so called writers.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I hear a Baptist minister in Atlanta, it's like this
so called prophecy.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Ye tender is the implication? Right?
Speaker 4 (45:58):
So O'Brien himself a pre just maybe where he's coming from.
On this notes that the verses why I'm published, as
well as the interpretations, correspond quite closely to an earlier
historical account of the popes written by a friar by
the name of Onofrio Ponvino in fifteen fifty seven called
Epitome Romanorum Pontificum or A Brief History of the Roman Pontiffs.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic because these two works correspond
so closely that the prophecy why On discovers and publishes it,
contains some of the same exact errors as an Offrio's work,
which happened earlier. So does God just want everybody to
(46:43):
keep making the same factual errors.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
No, maybe it's the same vision and had the same issues.
It was just given out to a couple different people. Maybe, well,
you know know, ster domis yea also.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Apparently all right, I'm sure he did.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Look well, I don't know exactly because I can't confirm it.
I'm reading it in things like Economic Times and the
New York Post.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
But no one has anyone hit us with the specific patray.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Well, I'm trying to find them, but it looks like
it's pulled directly from the prophecy of the Pope's writing. Okay,
I'll give you a quote that's in a New York
Post article. It says Nostra Damus wrote, quote, through the
death of a very old pontiff, a Roman of good
age will be elected of him. It will be said
that he weakens his see as in the Holy See,
(47:31):
but long will he sit and in biting activity. And
then this is the quote that I think is directly
from the other one. And but again they are saying
this is no Stra Damis writing. But I couldn't find
the original Nostradamus text, but it says quote that Noster
Damis said, in the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church,
there will sit Pete the Roman sounds exactly like the
(47:54):
prophecy already, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations?
When these things are finished, the city of seven Hills
will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Pas, yes, sure, his sheep.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think that's from the from the prophecy, like I
think that's a direct pull quote from the Prophecy, not
from Nostra Damis and misattributed earlier.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
There's a lot of repeted little lines. I mean, you know,
it's flavor. It's ten to ten exact quote we had.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
So it feels to me like it's a misattribution. But
if you're online just looking for this stuff, you may
run across that and think, oh wait, Nostra Damas said that.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
There's some slight variations, right the pasture the flock. Isn't
that a little different or is it complete?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
One to one? It's no, you're right, it's it's a
little bit different. Let's real quick, folks, we have to
say this. Nostra Damas was born in fifteen oh three
died around fifteen sixty six, so before the Prophecy was published.
He also did not write in English.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
And did Malachi neither did wild yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
This is allegedly according to The New York Post from
a fifteen fifty five publication titled Le Profities.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Ah. Okay, yes, that makes sense because no Stra Damis
was French, so that part checks out.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Boom, all right, to solve it.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
So okay, wait, though, if this is the case, if
Malachi doesn't write this, or if Malachi or why on
maybe pulls from Nostradamus and from other extant works at
the time, If he was cribbing from existing sources, why
would he bother? Was it just like a boring afternoon
at the monastery? They didn't have UFC you know what
(49:42):
I mean, they didn't have cable? So or is there
a conspiracy at play? This goes back to the point
about self fulfilling prophecy and pr Yes, right, this is
where we see you know, politics or politics wherever you go.
So how could politics play a role in prophecy or
how could switch it? How could prophecy play a role
in politics? Oh?
Speaker 4 (50:03):
I mean, gosh, it's just the religion in and of
itself is such a powerful tool of control. Not sure
if you guys have seen heretic the recent kind of
what do you call it?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Elevated horror?
Speaker 4 (50:15):
Sure, And it's this idea of how belief and religion
in general are ultimately tools of control. And that's where
the Catholic Church and their political cachet I think, really
comes into play here. But prophecy and politics have often
been hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
It's all belief, man, You think that's air your breathing neo?
Speaker 3 (50:39):
Did you know Puritans were against forks? They hated forks
because they were too like pitchfork. They felt they were ungodly.
Who were hanging with aj Bahamas Jacobs and he told
us about Puritans being against forks.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Or it removes you from your food.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
That's true. So you know, it's how do they feel
about shovel? How do they feel about soup? You know
what I mean? Oh?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
God?
Speaker 3 (51:04):
Anyway, over the centuries, particularly with one guy, you'll see
quoted often or refer too often a seventeenth century priest
named Louis Moreri. People have argued the prophecy came about
not as divine guidance, but instead as a cynical internal
move for power. Louis and others like him believe that
(51:24):
the conspiracy takes place during the conclave to replace Pope
Urban seventh in fifteen ninety and that there was a
faction of people who are supporting a guy named Cardinal
Girolamo Samonchelli, and they started spreading the word about the
prophecy to help make it look like he was chosen
by God to be the next pope. But this has
(51:47):
issues just to be fair, because why on publish this
in fifteen ninety five. So for this conspiracy to be real,
it would have to mean that Arnold had already known
the like it had already been lost and rediscovered, and
everyone inside the church was aware of it before it
was officially published. That timeline is, as Gollum would say, tricksy.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
Oh yes, So let's just say, for the sake of argument,
that it was known internally, in which case it does
make sense that someone might have looked to the prophecy,
even if formally unacknowledged, as you put it so succinctly,
Ben in your notes here, and you know, see whether
or not it supported their particular political cause or their agenda,
(52:35):
or how they feel that their constituents are being served. Right,
So politics, at the end of the day, are politics,
however sacred or profane.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
It's the prophecy and the archives, the archives, find my
precious find my secret archives.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
Question, quick question. I'm a cardinal, yes, yeah, a big
fan of your prophecies and stuff. My question is how
can I make this about me? And see?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
So all right, nobody there is a Vatican Secret Archives
that could contain Saint Malachi's original writings of this prophecy
that were then found and included in this other book.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, But it's also in addition
to that, the Vatican Secret Archives. Check out our episode
and our video on that secret doesn't quite mean for
the Vatican what secret means for us for us outsiders.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Well, you got to know what's in there.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
You got to know exactly what you're asking for. You
can't go in. It's not target shopping with vibes. You
can't go in and say give me something more, you know,
like give me something sick on witches or like church schisms,
nanti popes, they'll you'll have to go in and say
I need specifically this title and as by this person.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
It is interesting, though, I have what if somebody did
know about Malachi and just ask for something writings of Malachi? Right, Yeah,
you could theoretically go in there and look for that.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
And people have tried, you know what I mean. But also,
the Vatican doesn't really have what we would call foya request.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
The lexus and nexus thing.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
Yeah, Freedom of Information Act is not a not a thing.
So in any case, whatever we feel about this conspiracy theory,
the prophecypr did not work. The cardinal in question samon Celli.
He loses the election. The second Conclave of fifteen ninety
sees a guy named Gregory elected to replace Pope Urban
(54:43):
the seventh, and maybe that's where we leave it. We
don't know who will become the next pope. As we
record here on Monday, April twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.
The conclave is set to begin on May seventh, twenty
twenty five, So.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Very theoretically today.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Right if this publishes on time and still look, here's
the thing. It's no question that we all live in frightening,
chaotic time, so of course people want safety, security, predictability.
Whether or not you personally believe in this prophecy, other prophecies,
or the concept of prophecy in general, you can't really
blame people for wanting pattern in order to the universe
(55:20):
because the alternative, like our pal Dan Harmon always says,
is the alternative is there's no one at the wheel,
and that's more frightening than almost any conspiracy out there,
not even Jesus. I mean, it depends on how you feel.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
So wait, because maybe maybe you can't be over eighty
as a cardinal to vote because you're just ready for
the end times.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
You're just saying, maybe you're too quick for the trigger.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, you're just like, you know what, Just go ahead
and bring in the bad guy, whoever it is.
Speaker 3 (55:48):
I have my time. Yeah, I'm purposely voting for an
anti pope.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
I'm done. I'm God.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Oh that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4 (55:57):
Though, Could there potentially within this system be like a
dark horse kind of agent of chaos?
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yes, And there can be situations where people seem cardinals
are at loggerheads for one reason, or another. Yet the
stability and sanctity of the church is ever the priority.
So the concept is that eventually people will come together
and make the correct choice. They'll do what is godly immoral.
(56:25):
But before we call this humbug and hogwash again, guys,
out of the nine front runners set to succeed Pope
Francis right now on April twenty eighth, three of them
are named Peter.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
It's too real us coming out coming out from the
other side. Guys, I'm here in whispers right now that
a lot of the more conservative church leaders are looking
at this guy, Cardinal Robert Sarrah of Guinea, that they
want and he would be the first black pope right right.
Speaker 3 (57:01):
And there's a there's also a guy, I want to say,
a Filipino cardinal in the broad Yes, yeah, it would.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
It would be amazing if we saw like a full
on change to the face of the Catholic Church like
it does. It doesn't matter what prophecies are out there.
That would be just cool as heck.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Yeah. But to do that, he'd have to again beat
Peter Urdo. He'd have to beat Uh. Let's see, where
are the other Peters? Uh, I don't know if Pietro counts.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Well, yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (57:27):
Yeah, and so h then of course Peter code will
Apia Turksen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
And it all depends on are the cardinals voting with
the prophecy on purpose.
Speaker 3 (57:42):
Or do they reject it as so many other members
of the church have they believe it's it's hogwashed themselves.
I don't know this makes you think, folks. We hope
we've done. We hope we've been fair. We have had
a little bit of good hearted levity, but it is,
you know, it's a time of great tragedy for Catholics
across the planet. We want to hear your thoughts, Catholic
(58:04):
or non Catholic alike, both about the prophecy of the
popes and about prophecy in general. So find us online,
give us a call, drop us a good old fashioned email. Oh,
by all means please do.
Speaker 4 (58:14):
You can find us at the handle of conspiracy Stuff,
where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Here's where it gets crazy, get.
Speaker 4 (58:21):
In all the pope talk, the conclave chat there among
that group of a.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Lovely conspiracy realists.
Speaker 4 (58:27):
You can also find us that handle on x FKA,
Twitter and on YouTube with video content. Galora for your
perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, where conspiracy stuff
show and there's more.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, it is a
voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname,
and say within the message if we can use your
name and message on the air, call us, tell us
who you think is going to be the next pope,
or just call us for any reason whatsoever. If you
(59:01):
don't like using your phone, why not instead send us
a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (59:05):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
writes back, as a matter of fact, I'm gidding, I
can see it.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
I can see it.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
The fog rolls in the Viking will write to us,
what are we talking about? What did we just predict?
There's one way to find out.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Maybe he's the new pope?
Speaker 3 (59:28):
What do we just predict? There's one way to find out.
Join us a step further from the light conspiracy at
iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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