December 13, 2024 • 41 mins
Could mysterious, possibly supernatural strangers really appear at just the right time to save someone's life? It's a question that's haunted humanity since the days of ancient empires. To many, these could be guardian angels or spirits of loved ones. However, modern scientists are increasingly researching the enigmatic "Third Man Factor" and, as Ben, Matt and Noel discover in the second part of this special two-part series -- the experts may have found some clues to the puzzle; small bits of information that, when combined, might not just explain the Third Man phenomena -- but also habve stunning implications for the interaction of science and spirituality overall.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
My name is Matt, my name is Noah.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Dylan, let's get a
quick record. Scratch nice maybe, hall elujah cool. Okay, that's
the last sound que we'll ask for. This is part
(00:49):
two of a two part series on something called the
Third Man Syndrome or the Third Man Factor. If you
have not listened to part one, please please please pause this.
We'll still be friends, we promise, and check out part
one because guys, we went to some weird places.
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Boy did we ever?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
And guys, in the in between these two episodes, I've
mentioned just off air that I was reading that book
The Nameless, and I didn't realize that a big part
of that book is about the Enochian language that we
covered in Do Angels have a Language?
Speaker 5 (01:26):
That's the one.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, it reminded me of this episode.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, Nameless is a wholesome, rollicking read fun for the
entire FAU.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
Don't do it. Do not Christmas, gift this to your child.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
The first to forget Judy Bloom. This is what your
kid needs to be read.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh my god, are you there, malk Yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's written by one of our favorite graphic novel authors,
Grim Morrison. That Ben, you got me into with the
Invisibles when I was just a wee kid, so thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
But it really is dark, like be careful.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Oh and also check out clean Room. No, I'm bullish
on it. Anyway. This is part two. So we can
say logically then that the mind, reacting to adverse environmental
(02:26):
conditions conjures its own ghost as a defense mechanism. This
means the explanation could be as simple as your neurons
misfiring in your brain. They're playing their snaptic air hockey
wrong or another I like that image, another biochemical reaction.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Yeah, but then the question becomes are they misfiring or
are they firing exactly as intended to get the desired effect?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
So many things that we look at as like a malfunction.
When you dig a little deeper, it starts to feel
quite functional.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Like sickle celademia and malaria.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think I get what you're saying,
man Like, it's something that maybe there was a time
where certain circumstances led to those being positive mutations, but
then when those conditions are changed and the thing remains,
it no longer is Is that right?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
That's possible? Yeah, this is It's definitely clearly not an
everyday thing for the vast majority of human beings. But
each human being is kind of snowflake or fingerprint level unique. Right,
You've got the same factory equipment, but that factory equipment
is continually modified by cultural, environmental, and internal decision points
(03:34):
to quote Bush.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
So it sounds like we're getting towards some of the
stuff we've talked about with the complexity of the evolution
of this old noggin, the thing we got inside this
skull of ours.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Yeah, the bi camera, mind, let's introduce that, because look,
all we're saying about environmental factors and physical privation, it
does not explain like that explains how people can hallucinate.
But it does not explain a common factor of third
man syndrome, which is the presence seems to actually help
to trigger or inspire action. History is riddled with people
(04:09):
who have hallucinated, and let's be brutally honest, believing you
can fly, really believing you can fly has not once, not,
never resulted in a person actually flying. Dang, so far,
so right, So we believe in you don't jump? So
what's the difference between third man factor and these other
(04:30):
cases a skewed perspective. This is where we got to
go to our pal, Joe McCormick of stuff to blow
your mind. If you like our show, you will love theirs.
In an earlier episode, years and years ago, now we
teamed up with Joe to explore this idea of the
bi cameral mind. What is it for a quick recap?
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Yeah so yeah, wonderful episode, Definitely worth checking out again.
It is this idea of bicameral mentality that is a
hypothesis created by a psychology just Julian James, who argues
that for a large portion of human history, up to
the time of the ancient Greeks, humans didn't consider their
emotions and desires to be something that came from within,
(05:12):
rather that.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Came from external sources.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
It was almost like we are a television receiver being
broadcast into you know, from outside of ourselves.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
There is no inner monologue thought occurs to you.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Instead of thinking about thinking metacognition, you are have, in fact,
had something beaming this information into your skull.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
What I know, So instead of thinking, I'm hungry, I
would like you know, I'd like a Philly cheeseteak. I'm hungry,
I'd like a Casadia. The bi cameral mind theory argues
that up until the time of the ancient Greeks, people
would think they heard a voice from outside, be that
God or a demon, saying you're hungry, you want a
(05:54):
case adia. And this is way before the invention of
the case adia.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
If you're looking for this episode, guys, I don't know
if we ever put it out as a classic, but
the original was back in twenty seventeen. I couldn't find
it in our meta as a classic, but it came
out in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
If you're looking for it.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
We're big fans of this one. The theory posits that
the human mind once operated in a divided state. Cognitive
functions were split, and one part of your brain appeared
to be speaking. A second part of the brain that
was your quote unquote you're you that you think of
(06:32):
when you think of yourself. That part was listening and obeying,
and so our buddy, Julian James says. The erosion, the
breakdown of this divide is what created the thing we
call human consciousness today. Gotta be careful, not every This
theory is not universally accepted, as a fair share of critics,
(06:53):
but god, how fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
It makes sense the brain thinking about thinking, because it's
not the same part thinking, right, it's one part of
your brain thinking about the other part of your brain
having ideas.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Weird, right, right? What does the air conditioner know about
the tires?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 6 (07:12):
But this is somewhat now, I wouldn't say controversial, but
this theory is not something that's universally accepted.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, I mean, if this mental state did or does
indeed exist, could it be possible we're just spitballing here, folks.
Could it be possible that extreme stress could trigger a
temporary return to this cognitive pattern? Could your brain go
into a kind of retreat mode, regressing back to bicameralism
(07:40):
as a survival mechanism.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, I think it's a definite possibility and it
would be super helpful in those moments if that's what
was happening.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, and I'm also thinking too, before we continue, just
the various spin offs of this, what if you have
third man syndrome. This is a good comedy sketch for us,
and the third man never goes away and just ask
you to do increasingly weird and cartoonish stuff and reminds
you of the time that they saved your life in Antarctica.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's hilarious. That's hilarious.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Oh you know what it makes me think of the
I mean we've kind of already mentioned this, but the
fight or flight thing, where that is your brain reverting
back to old school. Just take action right now. This
is what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Take it.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Do it now, don't think, just go at right now. Yeah,
either fight that thing or get the heck out of
here right now. We're not gonna contemplate it. We're not
gonna even think about what it looks like or you know,
any of the details. We're just gonna put our feet
to the ground and go.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, and we do have some good news for people who,
like us, are fascinated with the bi camera mind theory.
Research into this concept is continuing. Neuroimaging appears to a
potentially support the idea that auditory hallucinations may arise from
(09:06):
the right temporal paradial lobe and the be transmitted to
the left temporal paradial lobe. All that to say, if
you look at someone's brain in the correct circumstances, then
it does appear that some kind of interaction or communication
is happening in a way that would not normally occur
(09:26):
to most human beings. Also, third man, you might not
always see the presence, but you often hear a voice.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, that was such a fascinating thing. We covered that topic.
I remember. I think we learned that in some people
who are experiencing schizophrenia, they're actually moving their jaw in
like these micro movements of vocalization. Yeah, causing the person
to physically hear the thoughts that were being formed that
(09:56):
they were unaware of because they were being potentially formed
in the right parietal as you're talking about, Well, then
transfer to the left as they hear the sounds that
they're making.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
So weird that's wild, man, it's wild. The human brain
is still very much an unknown country as the literary boffins,
which is.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
So much stuff is happening under the surface. I mean,
just the idea of like this inner life that we
may or may not even be tuned into half of
the time, not to mention like those involuntary muscle movements
and like you said, the jaw movements and things that
are kind of indicators of all of this stuff bubbling
just under the surface.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
It kind of really makes your head spend when you
think about it.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, you could go so deep into some of this
stuff that we're talking about here, because it could, you know,
if you break it way out and allow yourself to
at least contemplate some of the more metaphysical things. Sure,
even though we're narrowing down into some of the scientific parts,
we still don't understand the mechanisms right of why it happens,
which is why we have the religion thing, as you said, Ben,
(11:01):
to bring it in to explain the why. But like
something could be taking possession in some way of just
that one part of your physical body, your brain, to
then send those ideas to you.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You're a vessel of a higher power.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, and I mean, what a perfect tool and all
of the receivers you know that we are equipped with
as human beings. I mean, it just blows my mind,
just the specialization and the ability for our human forms
and the equipment that we've got on board. I guess,
for lack of a better way of describing it, that
links up so perfectly with these concepts that we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
I know it's sort of like I'm stating the obvious,
but I do occasionally just get overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
It's an overwhelming thing I like to you know, I
love to think in metaphor. Similarly, it's a great way
to learn. One example could be looking at this as
the human brains version of the local TV station taking
over the broadcast for an emergency warning. You know what
I mean. You think that you can change the channel,
(12:04):
but if things get rough, they're taken over.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Can we talk about the God helmet, guys, Yes, all right,
this is the most metal thing of all time.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
I just love it, just the name of the concept alone.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Ah, Yes, the god helmet. I love that you describe
it as metal. Sometimes also called the Koran helmet ko
R E. N This thing is like, it looks kind
of silly if you pull up the picture. It's created
by a guide named Stanley Koran and a neuroscientist named
Michael Persinger, and they wanted to say they wanted to
(12:38):
find out what happens to a person's subjective experience, what
you feel you're encountering if you stimulate the temporal lobes.
How does this make them feel about thoroughly human things
like creativity and religious experience. This is straight up a
snowmobile helmet, all right. Name makes it sound like a
(13:01):
crazy warhammer forty k kind of thing or a magic
the Gathering card. But god, helmet is a snowmobile helmet
with some brain monitoring toys strapped across it.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I think you've seen it in Ghostbusters. Probably.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
It's definitely very It's that cliche kind of like science helmet.
It's that kind of DIY in your science garage, custom
built mind reading helmet.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, but it doesn't just protect you from you know,
going over the handlebars. This thing's got magnetic fields that
it produces.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Like TCDs or TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation, transcranial direct current.
This is a method of subjecting parts of the brain
to weak magnetic force. We know it sounds bonkers because
you might be saying, hey, guys, is the idea that
(13:59):
we're using science to trigger an experience with the divine
or the sensation of such. Yes, yeah, so stick with
us here. We know how it sounds. We wanted to
go to some great writing by our colleague Molly Edmunds,
who penned an article about this for our alma matter,
How Stuff Works. She has a great description of this
(14:21):
that is going to take us to some very interesting places.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Shout out to Molly.
Speaker 6 (14:26):
Indeed, Molly says the god helmet includes electrodes that Persinger
used to alter the electromagnetic field at the temporal lobes.
Persinger claims that he can create a religious experience for
anyone by disrupting the brain with regular electric pulses. This
will cause the left temporal lobe to explain the activity
in the right of the brain as a sensed presence.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Yeah, so what side of your brain says, hey, man,
what the heck? And the other side of your brain says, oh, yeah, dude,
there's someone here whoa And that's what your other that's
the original half your brank go WHOA, No way we
get to cultural priming, because the sensed presence could be
(15:11):
anything from God to demon, maybe a lost loved one.
And what they found that's so fascinating is it depended
upon the expectations of the person downing the helmet if
they were not told the patience or participants in the
experiment were not told what the experiment involved. About eighty
(15:32):
percent of people wearing the God helmet reported sensing an
unseen presence, and this shows us crucial information. First, most amazingly,
the god helmet does work, just not for everyone and
not all the time. And I don't know about you, guys,
but I first really learned about the God helmet thanks
to the famously kind and not curmudgeonly Richard Dawkins. Oh.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I really liked that guy for a long time my life.
It's another I don't like him now.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's just I've I don't know, well, I lived on
his word for a little while there.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
But did he have a cancelation moment kind of though?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Guys, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I just yeah, he went he goes hard on on
the paint when it comes to shooting down anything that
could be even, you know, slightly just veering on the
edge about there.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
He's tried to cancel religion, and he would agree with
agree with us saying that, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
He had the Humanist of the Year award stripped from
him for making some anti trans comments.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Oh wow, Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
That's weird for a skeptic.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
Yeah, I agree, okay, very very Anyway, that's back in
twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Okay, Well, he also did not get the god helmet vibe.
He put it on again. Famously, we could call him
huge critic of religion. Some folks have called him a
militant atheist. He tries on the god helmet and he says, look,
I felt a little bit dizzy. I had some twitchy
legs for a minute. And this led Persenger to believe
(17:10):
that some people may, for one reason or another, be
inherently more inclined to have these experiences, maybe due to
genetic factors, maybe cultural factors. And let's remember the god
helmet was invented pretty recently in the grand scheme of things.
So how do we explain other people having encounters, epiphanies,
(17:31):
experiences with what they saw as the divine? Well, it
must mean that you don't always have to have the
technology to do this. Your pre existing beliefs and expectations.
They have a huge influence on how folks would explain
the God helmet to themselves. You already believe in God
right or gods or angels, your brain is going to
(17:52):
instantly conclude that's what you're encountering.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, dude, totally.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Will pause for a moment for a word from our sponsors,
and we'll be right back, and we've returned.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Guys, it took me to a place to contemplate fasting
and this concept of depriving yourself of food for a
long enough time to get closer in some way to
the spiritual side, right to God, in some way to
show your devotion and what if it is or was
at least originally a physical way to make your mind,
(18:39):
dude get closer there.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Well, it's sort of like self flagellation, right, Like, you know,
if you whip yourself enough, then your fight or flight
you triggers will will kick in that you were actually
causing and perhaps cause you to experience that third man syndrome,
Like is the third man God?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
You know? I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
It's very explained as such.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah, and also I found an article I just love
the headline.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
It was in the UK's Guardian Bad Science column and
it says, bring me a God helmet and bring it now,
by Ben Goldacre.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
And then he just described it really beautifully.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
It says the temporal lobes have long been implicated in
religious experiences. Epileptic seizures in that part of the brain,
for example, can produce mystical experiences and visions. Persinger's helmet
stimulates those temporal lobes with weak electromagnetic fields through the skull,
and in various published papers, this stimulation has been shown
to induce a sensed presence under blinded conditions.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
I would also add to this pre God helmet to
that point, meditation, which is still practiced. Meditation can create
that sense of psychological isolation, diving into your inner world
to see if there's something that reaches out to you.
So it isnmpletely possible, even weirdly enough, Maynard came from
(20:03):
tool Energy. Yes, yes, Keenan, Yes, Old Maynard recommends the
the similar thing. You know, you could also perhaps use
drugs or hallucinogens to induce this stuff. He said, Yeah,
that's fine, tried it a couple times, but then figure
out the natural way to get there on your road.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I think it's Capsayson guys.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Spicy spicy boys.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yes, No, but really like you guys have probably had
that experience where like, if I eat something so spicy,
it is this moment of all it's almost clarity because
you're you cease thinking about anything else. I wonder if
it is the same thing or close to the same thing.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (20:48):
A buddy of mine recently turned me on to a study.
I'll see if I can find.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
It for later.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
But where there are these like Janused monks I believe,
or these specific sect of monks that will do this
intense form of meditation where they stare at a candleplane
for like days on end, and the study has shown
that it genuinely produces an experience almost.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Identical to that of being on DMT.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Sure, yeah, meditation, focused meditation can do this the mind.
The thoughts that you choose to experience over time can
have physiological impact upon your brain. Shout out the knowledge,
Shout out Buddhist meditation.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Shout out the infinite social scroll that is doing the
opposite of what we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Really, yeah, depends on how I curate it right. Another
example about priming, Let's say you are pining for a
long lost loved one. They have been on your mind
for some time now. Obviously bad faith actors purporting to
be mediums have they made bank off this since time immemorial.
(21:54):
But you may if you're wearing a god helmet, because
you're primed to think of that person, and you may
feel the presence you have interacted with or encountered is
that person from beyond the grave. And if you're more secular,
you haven't been primed at all. Then you get to
a hilarious gotta catch twenty two situation. One side of
(22:14):
your brain is going bonkers saying, man, man, there's something there,
there's something there. The other side says, oh, what is it?
What is it? And the first size of your brain
says the fuck, I don't know, And then you take
off the helmet.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, well, you know, I just had a conversation about
this with somebody. We do have the genetic code of
our ancestors in our code, or at least bits and
pieces of it, right segments of it. So there's another
whole thing. If you get in, you know, you dig
deeper into that then potentially there is not there is
some kind of interaction that you could be having not
only would the neural connections and the memories you have
(22:50):
of that person, but with the actual code that.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Is a part of you.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
It's very Graham Hancock. Yeah, I've read those books that
the idea that Graham Handcock takes a little bit further
and argues that what is often described as quote unquote
junk DNA is actually memory encoded. It reminds me of
our earlier Strange News segment where we're talking earlier listener
mail segment. We're talking about the possibility of genetic memory
(23:17):
and thank you Anonymous for sending us a really cool
picture of your dog. Just going to leave that withe there.
But okay, so we've got these things. We all saw
the email. That's a champion dog right there, top tier.
We've got these things trauma and survival. So we know
the factors influencing the experience. We know that the experience
(23:38):
can be purposely or something like it can be purposely
created through technology the god helmet. We also know there's
a really fascinating argument that once upon a time the
human brain was more divided whether that be to culture,
whether that's be to psychology, something environmental that we can't explain.
(23:59):
But I'm thinking if we take all these if we
treat them like puzzle pieces, maybe we can use them
to build a better picture of this thing we call
the Third Man mystery. The neuroscience really is one of
the key players here, right, Like, neurosciences pretty legit.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's definitely a thing. You can
get a degree in it. We know several people that
have those we do.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yeah, you're right. I guess maybe that's a little bit
of a softball for me to go. Now, No, you guys,
this neuroscience thing bullshit.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
No, so it does.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It does show us that, like you were saying earlier, No,
there are plenty studies on the activity of the brain,
and they show increased activity in areas associated with social
cognition and self awareness. Right, Like I am in a
school of fish? Which fish am I? How do I
(24:59):
relate to the other fish? During what are called simulated
isolation experiments, you put someone alone, you put them in
the hole. You see what happens their brain. It looks
like your brain starts to work over time to fill
the void by the left in the absence of real
social interaction. So in short, if we do not have
(25:20):
friends our brains, if your human may start working to
make them.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Man, that's so weird because I think back to Shackleton
and how there were three human beings there that's experiencing
the same thing, and.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
So does that.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
But then we also know about like collective hallucinations. Does
that explain that if people usually experience those under duress.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Like FOLLI you do? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's another piece
of the puzzle that's difficult for us to grapple with.
So the God Helmet shows us proves that certain subtle
magnetic stimulations can create the feeling of an unseen presence.
We also know from our earlier episode on the science
of ghosts, which was dope, honestly, we know that certain
(26:09):
infrasound frequencies can create the experience of sensing a ghost.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Yeah for sure, ooh and shout out to I don't
know if we should talk about it real quick, guys.
We've got a pretty cool live event coming up in
the new year where we're going to.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Talk about a lot of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
Infrasound, how sound can affect our physicality and our mental state.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, it's gonna be a blast.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
If you've got your calendars for twenty twenty five out,
go ahead and write down these dates. February nineteenth through
the twenty first.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
In Brooklyn, New York at the Wife Hotel.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
That's the on air fest at the legendary National Sawdust Venue.
We can't wait for you to be there. We'll have
more information emerging as we get closer. No word yet
on whether or not we'll have a god helmet, but really,
the god helmet's the friends we made along the way.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We're gonna turn that entire venue into a god helmet.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
You guys, they're going to be God tier, that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
Ed.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Speaking of god helmet, we noted again as we're building
out our puzzle pieces here, the god helmet may not
be necessary to trigger these experiences. Other factors or mixtures
of factors could produce a similar result, as we talked
about in depth a few minutes ago. But the god
helmet itself, again, it doesn't appear to conjure entities that
(27:36):
tell you to do a specific set of actions, telling
you to do something, helping you do something that is
the primary defining factor. Of third man syndrome, and I
posit the bicameral mind might help us solve for that part.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yeah, I think, dude, I think there's also something to
this figure. I mean, this doesn't go into explaining at
you guys, but a figure that is there that is
just pushing forward.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
So, just to go back to that Shackleton experience, You've
got three guys who are you know, on their last legs,
doing everything they can to move one foot forward, and
you've got this third party, fourth party I guess that
is just trudging through the snow and just isn't stopping.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
And laughing all the way.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
But just say that that thing that you are both visualizing, hearing, sensing,
all that stuff that just continues.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah, it's similar perhaps to the stories of what's sometimes
called hysterical strength. So you can actually, if you're a
human being, you can actually lift and move way more
stuff than you feel like you can ordinarily your body
just has hard mental constraints to stop you from hurting yourself. Yeah,
(28:54):
and so in times of emergency, like the common trope
that you always hear is a mother the back of
a card, a savor kid and maybe gives themselves injuries
in the process because they're able to bypass that stuff.
So if the by camera mind is telling us that
people can experience a form of disassociation due to a
(29:15):
number of factors, then we're looking at neurological, environmental, cultural, psychological.
Something adds into this stew and creates the certitude that
an internal thought is coming from an external source. In
those cases, in the bi camera mind theory, those voices
from the ether do tell people to do certain things,
(29:38):
to take certain actions.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
All right, let's take a quick pause, hear a word
from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back into
this conversation on the third man theory.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
And we've returned, let's learn more about the third man syndrome.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
To me, though, sometimes even when we drill down into
the science of some of these metaphysical kind of experiences.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
It doesn't like cheapen it not to me at all,
if anything.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I mean, I think they do coexist the way you
so beautifully put it earlier.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
Science and spirituality, Well good news.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I think it's the world we live in fair enough.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yeah, Well, it's weird because you know, if there is
a force out there that is so much grander and
greater than us. I can't imagine a version of it
where it cares what you call it, you know, or care,
it really cares how you worship it.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Wouldn't that be the weirdest thing to get hung up on?
Can you imagine people murder each other over it? Yeah?
They murder each other. Here I'm talking about what the
metaphysical death sentence of going to damnation? On a technicality? Yeah, well, buddy,
but that's funny.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
So many religions are based on it's a technicality. If
you don't believe in this exact way, Saint Peter's sending
you home.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
The wrong animal once. Okay, yeah you did get baptized, buddy,
but whoo whoa, whoa, woah. Let me stop you at
the gate. Did you get sprinkles or did you get dumped?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Dude?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
As you get closer to the center, the smiling man
doesn't care what you call him. He's just waiting for
you in the black bar. That's a shout out to
Gideon falls really.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Good, really and Ben to your point, your your your
baptismal materials were not approved, you know, for use.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Let me see the tip of your penis.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Yes, please say it like that.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
You're like, Wow, Heaven is way more intense than I thought.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
You were that close, Sorry, Matt.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Matt is clearly indicating the foreskins distance away from the
divine a foreskin to hell. Uh, the new tell all
memoir of the afterlife by your bowels and stuff. They
don't want you to know. I mean, yeah, we can't
cast we never do, and I think we're all this
is very important to all of us. I'm extremely proud
of us on the show for never casting aspersion on
(32:08):
spiritual beliefs. There is a surprisingly fascinating collection of science
that's ongoing that might explain what's happening with third man syndrome.
And because cultural perspective and cultural framework is such a
big part of what may be going on here, that
means it's the opposite of dismissing spirituality. It means spirituality
(32:30):
must be acknowledged as a piece of the explanation. I mean,
you're dude, think about it. You're on death's door. It's
a worse day or days of your life, and you,
the you that you think of as you yourself that
you has given up done so, and then your brain
and a last ditch effort to keep the whole show
going conjures up another version, a better version of you. Temporarily,
(32:54):
it says you're not alone, can't give up. Now hold
my hand, walk a little further over the next time, ill,
I will take you somewhere safe.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, And that version of you might be a loved
one that passed away, right because just because that's how
your brain ends up visualizing it, and it knows that
you will be motivated by that specific person.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Well.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
And so often we talk about the idea of experiencing
ghosts too, or like you know, what's apparitions out in
the world. Oftentimes we link those experiences back to memory.
You know, the idea of being haunted quote unquote or
visited by a loved one is really just a different
way of experiencing your love and your memories of that
(33:36):
person manifesting in a way that can help you.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
M hmm, yeah, one hundred percent. I mean it's a
positive conspiracy. It's a positive weaponization of very complex mechanisms.
I mean, science seems to imply that the third Man
factor is an internal conspiracy on the part of your brain,
but not to hurt you, just to try to help you.
(34:01):
And again we have to say this has not been
proven because spoiler, folks, it is cartoonishly difficult to study
this in a lab because you can't, you know, right now,
you can't legally strap a brain monitoring device on someone
and just slap them on the keyster and push them
out into the Arctic until they starve. You can't do
(34:22):
that just to see what happens.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
We're getting there with VR though soon enough.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Hey, that's actually that's a really good point, man.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, shut out Unit seven thirty one.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Also, their science was bad, Yeah, but act they were
doing crap like that.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
They were. They're part of the reason we have such
strict ethical guidelines now.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Also, what's that movie with Keith for Sutherland. I used
to love it where the those med students start taking
themselves to near death experiences Flat flights. Yeah, you guys
remember flat Lighters?
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Yeah? Not great but interesting and of its time.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
No, I love that concept.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Really, smart inquisitive people are like, you know what, let's
just kill each other a little bit and see what happens.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
Who's got the right blanket for this? That was a
big plot point, right, Flat Lighters. Jacob's Ladder was another
one kind of in that vat.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
That's a good one. Jacob's Ladder.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned that Ben the earlier.
When we were talking about this, the quote occurred to me.
What is it If you're dying and you're hanging on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away, But if you
make peace, then the devil has become angels, freeing you
from the earth.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Oh that's cool. Is that from Jacob's Ladder?
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yes, sir, it is.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Oh that's beautiful. Yeah, flat lighters, I will defend. I mean,
it's obviously no vibes, but it does show this idea
of you know, one of the I mean, it's a
horror movie. We won't to spoil it too much, but
one of the big debates they have for a while
is whether they are encountering external forces because they've pierced
(35:55):
the mortal veil or the mortal pale, or whether they
are doing something to their brains through near death experiences
that make them perceive an internal thing is an external thing.
And that's that's where we have to say, don't try
to give yourself an NDE. Now, even if you have
a lab don't do it. It's super tricky. And you
(36:17):
only have to mess up once.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Oh for sure, guys, you mind if I get one
more example just of this that found was really sweet
and maybe I don't know, it actually made me feel good.
It's another example that came from our buddy John Geiger
there from his the third Man factor, and this was
a person named Stephanie. Stephanie Schwab. I want to say,
who went into one of those underwater cave systems, you know,
(36:43):
the ones where people take their scuba equipment and go
deep into caverns that are labyrinthine and the only way
you know where you are inside that thing is through
a guideline that is connected to you and attached to you,
so you can then follow that line back out of
the system, because there's no way in the darkness of
(37:04):
that cave with your little lights you'd be able to
find your way out.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Well.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
In this specific instance in nineteen ninety seven, Stephanie lost
her guideline while she's deep in this cave system, and
she began running out of oxygen and panicking. And for
her at least, what she experienced was that her a
presence was with her that she ascribed to her recently
dead husband, who helped her calm down, find the guideline
(37:32):
at the very you know you're talking about time running out,
find the guideline, and pull herself out. I just think
that's amazing that she had that in her and had
that experience, which is really beautiful if you think about it,
But just that maybe all of us haven't in us
the potential to either save ourselves through all these mechanisms
we've described, or to actually get some kind of outside
(37:55):
help from someone who's been in our lives. I just
think it's I don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Sweet, and when it works out, it definitely is. We
also have to remember that there have statistically, if everything
we're saying is somewhat on base, there have statistically been
moments where the third man came too late.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, yeah, we would never know, right.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
We'll never know. There also is still a great stigma
around reporting or sharing these experiences. Partially that's because people
don't want to seem like they're off base, right or
mentally asymmetrical. The third man syndrome is a mysterious phenomenon. Still,
even this evening, we know something is definitely happening, But
(38:40):
what according to all the signs so far, that appears
to be the stuff your brain doesn't want you to
know and if you trust us. Folks, if you've come
this far with us, thank you again for your time.
We would love to hear your stories. If you have
encountered something like this, something you cannot explain, and if
any of what we've explored over these past two episodes
(39:02):
has spoken to you, tell us about it. We'd love
to learn more and we'd love to potentially share your
stories with your fellow listeners. You can find us via
email you give us a call. We also are on
all sorts of internet lines.
Speaker 5 (39:16):
It's right catch us outside online. That's where we are.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
We exist in the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist
on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,
on exfka, Twitter and on YouTube with video content Galora
for your perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, we
are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three STDWYTK. It's a voicemail system. When you call in,
you've got three minutes, give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on the air. If you got more to say,
then can fit in that voicemail, why not instead send
us a good old fashion email.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
rights back. Join us out here in the dark. You
can send us any old thing. We love episode suggestions.
We want to hear your third man stories. We also
welcome your jokes. Could I share one if we haven't
(40:15):
gotten to it yet. Guys, it's okay. H ZS. Rex
said something so good I had to write back to
you Directly's Evius. He said, my dog got into our
scrabble game. His next bowel movement could spell disaster.
Speaker 6 (40:32):
That's very funny, hey, at least it's definitely a cut
above humor.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
As Harry I will say that multiple cuts.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
So I'm bringing this up to thank you zus Rex,
and thank everybody who again trust us enough to reach
out and hang with us here in the dark. Join
us conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
My name is Matt, my name is Noah.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Dylan, let's get a
quick record. Scratch nice maybe, hall elujah cool. Okay, that's
the last sound que we'll ask for. This is part
(00:49):
two of a two part series on something called the
Third Man Syndrome or the Third Man Factor. If you
have not listened to part one, please please please pause this.
We'll still be friends, we promise, and check out part
one because guys, we went to some weird places.
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Boy did we ever?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
And guys, in the in between these two episodes, I've
mentioned just off air that I was reading that book
The Nameless, and I didn't realize that a big part
of that book is about the Enochian language that we
covered in Do Angels have a Language?
Speaker 5 (01:26):
That's the one.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, it reminded me of this episode.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, Nameless is a wholesome, rollicking read fun for the
entire FAU.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
Don't do it. Do not Christmas, gift this to your child.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
The first to forget Judy Bloom. This is what your
kid needs to be read.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh my god, are you there, malk Yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's written by one of our favorite graphic novel authors,
Grim Morrison. That Ben, you got me into with the
Invisibles when I was just a wee kid, so thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
But it really is dark, like be careful.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Oh and also check out clean Room. No, I'm bullish
on it. Anyway. This is part two. So we can
say logically then that the mind, reacting to adverse environmental
(02:26):
conditions conjures its own ghost as a defense mechanism. This
means the explanation could be as simple as your neurons
misfiring in your brain. They're playing their snaptic air hockey
wrong or another I like that image, another biochemical reaction.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Yeah, but then the question becomes are they misfiring or
are they firing exactly as intended to get the desired effect?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
So many things that we look at as like a malfunction.
When you dig a little deeper, it starts to feel
quite functional.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Like sickle celademia and malaria.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think I get what you're saying,
man Like, it's something that maybe there was a time
where certain circumstances led to those being positive mutations, but
then when those conditions are changed and the thing remains,
it no longer is Is that right?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
That's possible? Yeah, this is It's definitely clearly not an
everyday thing for the vast majority of human beings. But
each human being is kind of snowflake or fingerprint level unique. Right,
You've got the same factory equipment, but that factory equipment
is continually modified by cultural, environmental, and internal decision points
(03:34):
to quote Bush.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
So it sounds like we're getting towards some of the
stuff we've talked about with the complexity of the evolution
of this old noggin, the thing we got inside this
skull of ours.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Yeah, the bi camera, mind, let's introduce that, because look,
all we're saying about environmental factors and physical privation, it
does not explain like that explains how people can hallucinate.
But it does not explain a common factor of third
man syndrome, which is the presence seems to actually help
to trigger or inspire action. History is riddled with people
(04:09):
who have hallucinated, and let's be brutally honest, believing you
can fly, really believing you can fly has not once, not,
never resulted in a person actually flying. Dang, so far,
so right, So we believe in you don't jump? So
what's the difference between third man factor and these other
(04:30):
cases a skewed perspective. This is where we got to
go to our pal, Joe McCormick of stuff to blow
your mind. If you like our show, you will love theirs.
In an earlier episode, years and years ago, now we
teamed up with Joe to explore this idea of the
bi cameral mind. What is it for a quick recap?
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Yeah so yeah, wonderful episode, Definitely worth checking out again.
It is this idea of bicameral mentality that is a
hypothesis created by a psychology just Julian James, who argues
that for a large portion of human history, up to
the time of the ancient Greeks, humans didn't consider their
emotions and desires to be something that came from within,
(05:12):
rather that.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Came from external sources.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
It was almost like we are a television receiver being
broadcast into you know, from outside of ourselves.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
There is no inner monologue thought occurs to you.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Instead of thinking about thinking metacognition, you are have, in fact,
had something beaming this information into your skull.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
What I know, So instead of thinking, I'm hungry, I
would like you know, I'd like a Philly cheeseteak. I'm hungry,
I'd like a Casadia. The bi cameral mind theory argues
that up until the time of the ancient Greeks, people
would think they heard a voice from outside, be that
God or a demon, saying you're hungry, you want a
(05:54):
case adia. And this is way before the invention of
the case adia.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
If you're looking for this episode, guys, I don't know
if we ever put it out as a classic, but
the original was back in twenty seventeen. I couldn't find
it in our meta as a classic, but it came
out in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
If you're looking for it.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
We're big fans of this one. The theory posits that
the human mind once operated in a divided state. Cognitive
functions were split, and one part of your brain appeared
to be speaking. A second part of the brain that
was your quote unquote you're you that you think of
(06:32):
when you think of yourself. That part was listening and obeying,
and so our buddy, Julian James says. The erosion, the
breakdown of this divide is what created the thing we
call human consciousness today. Gotta be careful, not every This
theory is not universally accepted, as a fair share of critics,
(06:53):
but god, how fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
It makes sense the brain thinking about thinking, because it's
not the same part thinking, right, it's one part of
your brain thinking about the other part of your brain
having ideas.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Weird, right, right? What does the air conditioner know about
the tires?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 6 (07:12):
But this is somewhat now, I wouldn't say controversial, but
this theory is not something that's universally accepted.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, I mean, if this mental state did or does
indeed exist, could it be possible we're just spitballing here, folks.
Could it be possible that extreme stress could trigger a
temporary return to this cognitive pattern? Could your brain go
into a kind of retreat mode, regressing back to bicameralism
(07:40):
as a survival mechanism.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, I think it's a definite possibility and it
would be super helpful in those moments if that's what
was happening.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, and I'm also thinking too, before we continue, just
the various spin offs of this, what if you have
third man syndrome. This is a good comedy sketch for us,
and the third man never goes away and just ask
you to do increasingly weird and cartoonish stuff and reminds
you of the time that they saved your life in Antarctica.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's hilarious. That's hilarious.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Oh you know what it makes me think of the
I mean we've kind of already mentioned this, but the
fight or flight thing, where that is your brain reverting
back to old school. Just take action right now. This
is what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Take it.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Do it now, don't think, just go at right now. Yeah,
either fight that thing or get the heck out of
here right now. We're not gonna contemplate it. We're not
gonna even think about what it looks like or you know,
any of the details. We're just gonna put our feet
to the ground and go.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, and we do have some good news for people who,
like us, are fascinated with the bi camera mind theory.
Research into this concept is continuing. Neuroimaging appears to a
potentially support the idea that auditory hallucinations may arise from
(09:06):
the right temporal paradial lobe and the be transmitted to
the left temporal paradial lobe. All that to say, if
you look at someone's brain in the correct circumstances, then
it does appear that some kind of interaction or communication
is happening in a way that would not normally occur
(09:26):
to most human beings. Also, third man, you might not
always see the presence, but you often hear a voice.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, that was such a fascinating thing. We covered that topic.
I remember. I think we learned that in some people
who are experiencing schizophrenia, they're actually moving their jaw in
like these micro movements of vocalization. Yeah, causing the person
to physically hear the thoughts that were being formed that
(09:56):
they were unaware of because they were being potentially formed
in the right parietal as you're talking about, Well, then
transfer to the left as they hear the sounds that
they're making.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
So weird that's wild, man, it's wild. The human brain
is still very much an unknown country as the literary boffins,
which is.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
So much stuff is happening under the surface. I mean,
just the idea of like this inner life that we
may or may not even be tuned into half of
the time, not to mention like those involuntary muscle movements
and like you said, the jaw movements and things that
are kind of indicators of all of this stuff bubbling
just under the surface.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
It kind of really makes your head spend when you
think about it.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, you could go so deep into some of this
stuff that we're talking about here, because it could, you know,
if you break it way out and allow yourself to
at least contemplate some of the more metaphysical things. Sure,
even though we're narrowing down into some of the scientific parts,
we still don't understand the mechanisms right of why it happens,
which is why we have the religion thing, as you said, Ben,
(11:01):
to bring it in to explain the why. But like
something could be taking possession in some way of just
that one part of your physical body, your brain, to
then send those ideas to you.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You're a vessel of a higher power.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, and I mean, what a perfect tool and all
of the receivers you know that we are equipped with
as human beings. I mean, it just blows my mind,
just the specialization and the ability for our human forms
and the equipment that we've got on board. I guess,
for lack of a better way of describing it, that
links up so perfectly with these concepts that we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
I know it's sort of like I'm stating the obvious,
but I do occasionally just get overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
It's an overwhelming thing I like to you know, I
love to think in metaphor. Similarly, it's a great way
to learn. One example could be looking at this as
the human brains version of the local TV station taking
over the broadcast for an emergency warning. You know what
I mean. You think that you can change the channel,
(12:04):
but if things get rough, they're taken over.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Can we talk about the God helmet, guys, Yes, all right,
this is the most metal thing of all time.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
I just love it, just the name of the concept alone.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Ah, Yes, the god helmet. I love that you describe
it as metal. Sometimes also called the Koran helmet ko
R E. N This thing is like, it looks kind
of silly if you pull up the picture. It's created
by a guide named Stanley Koran and a neuroscientist named
Michael Persinger, and they wanted to say they wanted to
(12:38):
find out what happens to a person's subjective experience, what
you feel you're encountering if you stimulate the temporal lobes.
How does this make them feel about thoroughly human things
like creativity and religious experience. This is straight up a
snowmobile helmet, all right. Name makes it sound like a
(13:01):
crazy warhammer forty k kind of thing or a magic
the Gathering card. But god, helmet is a snowmobile helmet
with some brain monitoring toys strapped across it.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I think you've seen it in Ghostbusters. Probably.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
It's definitely very It's that cliche kind of like science helmet.
It's that kind of DIY in your science garage, custom
built mind reading helmet.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, but it doesn't just protect you from you know,
going over the handlebars. This thing's got magnetic fields that
it produces.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Like TCDs or TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation, transcranial direct current.
This is a method of subjecting parts of the brain
to weak magnetic force. We know it sounds bonkers because
you might be saying, hey, guys, is the idea that
(13:59):
we're using science to trigger an experience with the divine
or the sensation of such. Yes, yeah, so stick with
us here. We know how it sounds. We wanted to
go to some great writing by our colleague Molly Edmunds,
who penned an article about this for our alma matter,
How Stuff Works. She has a great description of this
(14:21):
that is going to take us to some very interesting places.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Shout out to Molly.
Speaker 6 (14:26):
Indeed, Molly says the god helmet includes electrodes that Persinger
used to alter the electromagnetic field at the temporal lobes.
Persinger claims that he can create a religious experience for
anyone by disrupting the brain with regular electric pulses. This
will cause the left temporal lobe to explain the activity
in the right of the brain as a sensed presence.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Yeah, so what side of your brain says, hey, man,
what the heck? And the other side of your brain says, oh, yeah, dude,
there's someone here whoa And that's what your other that's
the original half your brank go WHOA, No way we
get to cultural priming, because the sensed presence could be
(15:11):
anything from God to demon, maybe a lost loved one.
And what they found that's so fascinating is it depended
upon the expectations of the person downing the helmet if
they were not told the patience or participants in the
experiment were not told what the experiment involved. About eighty
(15:32):
percent of people wearing the God helmet reported sensing an
unseen presence, and this shows us crucial information. First, most amazingly,
the god helmet does work, just not for everyone and
not all the time. And I don't know about you, guys,
but I first really learned about the God helmet thanks
to the famously kind and not curmudgeonly Richard Dawkins. Oh.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I really liked that guy for a long time my life.
It's another I don't like him now.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's just I've I don't know, well, I lived on
his word for a little while there.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
But did he have a cancelation moment kind of though?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Guys, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I just yeah, he went he goes hard on on
the paint when it comes to shooting down anything that
could be even, you know, slightly just veering on the
edge about there.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
He's tried to cancel religion, and he would agree with
agree with us saying that, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
He had the Humanist of the Year award stripped from
him for making some anti trans comments.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Oh wow, Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
That's weird for a skeptic.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
Yeah, I agree, okay, very very Anyway, that's back in
twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Okay, Well, he also did not get the god helmet vibe.
He put it on again. Famously, we could call him
huge critic of religion. Some folks have called him a
militant atheist. He tries on the god helmet and he says, look,
I felt a little bit dizzy. I had some twitchy
legs for a minute. And this led Persenger to believe
(17:10):
that some people may, for one reason or another, be
inherently more inclined to have these experiences, maybe due to
genetic factors, maybe cultural factors. And let's remember the god
helmet was invented pretty recently in the grand scheme of things.
So how do we explain other people having encounters, epiphanies,
(17:31):
experiences with what they saw as the divine? Well, it
must mean that you don't always have to have the
technology to do this. Your pre existing beliefs and expectations.
They have a huge influence on how folks would explain
the God helmet to themselves. You already believe in God
right or gods or angels, your brain is going to
(17:52):
instantly conclude that's what you're encountering.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, dude, totally.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Will pause for a moment for a word from our sponsors,
and we'll be right back, and we've returned.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Guys, it took me to a place to contemplate fasting
and this concept of depriving yourself of food for a
long enough time to get closer in some way to
the spiritual side, right to God, in some way to
show your devotion and what if it is or was
at least originally a physical way to make your mind,
(18:39):
dude get closer there.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Well, it's sort of like self flagellation, right, Like, you know,
if you whip yourself enough, then your fight or flight
you triggers will will kick in that you were actually
causing and perhaps cause you to experience that third man syndrome,
Like is the third man God?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
You know? I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
It's very explained as such.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah, and also I found an article I just love
the headline.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
It was in the UK's Guardian Bad Science column and
it says, bring me a God helmet and bring it now,
by Ben Goldacre.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
And then he just described it really beautifully.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
It says the temporal lobes have long been implicated in
religious experiences. Epileptic seizures in that part of the brain,
for example, can produce mystical experiences and visions. Persinger's helmet
stimulates those temporal lobes with weak electromagnetic fields through the skull,
and in various published papers, this stimulation has been shown
to induce a sensed presence under blinded conditions.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
I would also add to this pre God helmet to
that point, meditation, which is still practiced. Meditation can create
that sense of psychological isolation, diving into your inner world
to see if there's something that reaches out to you.
So it isnmpletely possible, even weirdly enough, Maynard came from
(20:03):
tool Energy. Yes, yes, Keenan, Yes, Old Maynard recommends the
the similar thing. You know, you could also perhaps use
drugs or hallucinogens to induce this stuff. He said, Yeah,
that's fine, tried it a couple times, but then figure
out the natural way to get there on your road.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I think it's Capsayson guys.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Spicy spicy boys.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yes, No, but really like you guys have probably had
that experience where like, if I eat something so spicy,
it is this moment of all it's almost clarity because
you're you cease thinking about anything else. I wonder if
it is the same thing or close to the same thing.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (20:48):
A buddy of mine recently turned me on to a study.
I'll see if I can find.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
It for later.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
But where there are these like Janused monks I believe,
or these specific sect of monks that will do this
intense form of meditation where they stare at a candleplane
for like days on end, and the study has shown
that it genuinely produces an experience almost.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Identical to that of being on DMT.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Sure, yeah, meditation, focused meditation can do this the mind.
The thoughts that you choose to experience over time can
have physiological impact upon your brain. Shout out the knowledge,
Shout out Buddhist meditation.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Shout out the infinite social scroll that is doing the
opposite of what we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Really, yeah, depends on how I curate it right. Another
example about priming, Let's say you are pining for a
long lost loved one. They have been on your mind
for some time now. Obviously bad faith actors purporting to
be mediums have they made bank off this since time immemorial.
(21:54):
But you may if you're wearing a god helmet, because
you're primed to think of that person, and you may
feel the presence you have interacted with or encountered is
that person from beyond the grave. And if you're more secular,
you haven't been primed at all. Then you get to
a hilarious gotta catch twenty two situation. One side of
(22:14):
your brain is going bonkers saying, man, man, there's something there,
there's something there. The other side says, oh, what is it?
What is it? And the first size of your brain
says the fuck, I don't know, And then you take
off the helmet.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, well, you know, I just had a conversation about
this with somebody. We do have the genetic code of
our ancestors in our code, or at least bits and
pieces of it, right segments of it. So there's another
whole thing. If you get in, you know, you dig
deeper into that then potentially there is not there is
some kind of interaction that you could be having not
only would the neural connections and the memories you have
(22:50):
of that person, but with the actual code that.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Is a part of you.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
It's very Graham Hancock. Yeah, I've read those books that
the idea that Graham Handcock takes a little bit further
and argues that what is often described as quote unquote
junk DNA is actually memory encoded. It reminds me of
our earlier Strange News segment where we're talking earlier listener
mail segment. We're talking about the possibility of genetic memory
(23:17):
and thank you Anonymous for sending us a really cool
picture of your dog. Just going to leave that withe there.
But okay, so we've got these things. We all saw
the email. That's a champion dog right there, top tier.
We've got these things trauma and survival. So we know
the factors influencing the experience. We know that the experience
(23:38):
can be purposely or something like it can be purposely
created through technology the god helmet. We also know there's
a really fascinating argument that once upon a time the
human brain was more divided whether that be to culture,
whether that's be to psychology, something environmental that we can't explain.
(23:59):
But I'm thinking if we take all these if we
treat them like puzzle pieces, maybe we can use them
to build a better picture of this thing we call
the Third Man mystery. The neuroscience really is one of
the key players here, right, Like, neurosciences pretty legit.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's definitely a thing. You can
get a degree in it. We know several people that
have those we do.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yeah, you're right. I guess maybe that's a little bit
of a softball for me to go. Now, No, you guys,
this neuroscience thing bullshit.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
No, so it does.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It does show us that, like you were saying earlier, No,
there are plenty studies on the activity of the brain,
and they show increased activity in areas associated with social
cognition and self awareness. Right, Like I am in a
school of fish? Which fish am I? How do I
(24:59):
relate to the other fish? During what are called simulated
isolation experiments, you put someone alone, you put them in
the hole. You see what happens their brain. It looks
like your brain starts to work over time to fill
the void by the left in the absence of real
social interaction. So in short, if we do not have
(25:20):
friends our brains, if your human may start working to
make them.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Man, that's so weird because I think back to Shackleton
and how there were three human beings there that's experiencing
the same thing, and.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
So does that.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
But then we also know about like collective hallucinations. Does
that explain that if people usually experience those under duress.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Like FOLLI you do? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's another piece
of the puzzle that's difficult for us to grapple with.
So the God Helmet shows us proves that certain subtle
magnetic stimulations can create the feeling of an unseen presence.
We also know from our earlier episode on the science
of ghosts, which was dope, honestly, we know that certain
(26:09):
infrasound frequencies can create the experience of sensing a ghost.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Yeah for sure, ooh and shout out to I don't
know if we should talk about it real quick, guys.
We've got a pretty cool live event coming up in
the new year where we're going to.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Talk about a lot of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
Infrasound, how sound can affect our physicality and our mental state.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, it's gonna be a blast.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
If you've got your calendars for twenty twenty five out,
go ahead and write down these dates. February nineteenth through
the twenty first.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
In Brooklyn, New York at the Wife Hotel.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
That's the on air fest at the legendary National Sawdust Venue.
We can't wait for you to be there. We'll have
more information emerging as we get closer. No word yet
on whether or not we'll have a god helmet, but really,
the god helmet's the friends we made along the way.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We're gonna turn that entire venue into a god helmet.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
You guys, they're going to be God tier, that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
Ed.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Speaking of god helmet, we noted again as we're building
out our puzzle pieces here, the god helmet may not
be necessary to trigger these experiences. Other factors or mixtures
of factors could produce a similar result, as we talked
about in depth a few minutes ago. But the god
helmet itself, again, it doesn't appear to conjure entities that
(27:36):
tell you to do a specific set of actions, telling
you to do something, helping you do something that is
the primary defining factor. Of third man syndrome, and I
posit the bicameral mind might help us solve for that part.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yeah, I think, dude, I think there's also something to
this figure. I mean, this doesn't go into explaining at
you guys, but a figure that is there that is
just pushing forward.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
So, just to go back to that Shackleton experience, You've
got three guys who are you know, on their last legs,
doing everything they can to move one foot forward, and
you've got this third party, fourth party I guess that
is just trudging through the snow and just isn't stopping.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
And laughing all the way.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
But just say that that thing that you are both visualizing, hearing, sensing,
all that stuff that just continues.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah, it's similar perhaps to the stories of what's sometimes
called hysterical strength. So you can actually, if you're a
human being, you can actually lift and move way more
stuff than you feel like you can ordinarily your body
just has hard mental constraints to stop you from hurting yourself. Yeah,
(28:54):
and so in times of emergency, like the common trope
that you always hear is a mother the back of
a card, a savor kid and maybe gives themselves injuries
in the process because they're able to bypass that stuff.
So if the by camera mind is telling us that
people can experience a form of disassociation due to a
(29:15):
number of factors, then we're looking at neurological, environmental, cultural, psychological.
Something adds into this stew and creates the certitude that
an internal thought is coming from an external source. In
those cases, in the bi camera mind theory, those voices
from the ether do tell people to do certain things,
(29:38):
to take certain actions.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
All right, let's take a quick pause, hear a word
from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back into
this conversation on the third man theory.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
And we've returned, let's learn more about the third man syndrome.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
To me, though, sometimes even when we drill down into
the science of some of these metaphysical kind of experiences.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
It doesn't like cheapen it not to me at all,
if anything.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I mean, I think they do coexist the way you
so beautifully put it earlier.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
Science and spirituality, Well good news.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I think it's the world we live in fair enough.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yeah, Well, it's weird because you know, if there is
a force out there that is so much grander and
greater than us. I can't imagine a version of it
where it cares what you call it, you know, or care,
it really cares how you worship it.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Wouldn't that be the weirdest thing to get hung up on?
Can you imagine people murder each other over it? Yeah?
They murder each other. Here I'm talking about what the
metaphysical death sentence of going to damnation? On a technicality? Yeah, well, buddy,
but that's funny.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
So many religions are based on it's a technicality. If
you don't believe in this exact way, Saint Peter's sending
you home.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
The wrong animal once. Okay, yeah you did get baptized, buddy,
but whoo whoa, whoa, woah. Let me stop you at
the gate. Did you get sprinkles or did you get dumped?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Dude?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
As you get closer to the center, the smiling man
doesn't care what you call him. He's just waiting for
you in the black bar. That's a shout out to
Gideon falls really.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Good, really and Ben to your point, your your your
baptismal materials were not approved, you know, for use.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Let me see the tip of your penis.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Yes, please say it like that.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
You're like, Wow, Heaven is way more intense than I thought.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
You were that close, Sorry, Matt.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Matt is clearly indicating the foreskins distance away from the
divine a foreskin to hell. Uh, the new tell all
memoir of the afterlife by your bowels and stuff. They
don't want you to know. I mean, yeah, we can't
cast we never do, and I think we're all this
is very important to all of us. I'm extremely proud
of us on the show for never casting aspersion on
(32:08):
spiritual beliefs. There is a surprisingly fascinating collection of science
that's ongoing that might explain what's happening with third man syndrome.
And because cultural perspective and cultural framework is such a
big part of what may be going on here, that
means it's the opposite of dismissing spirituality. It means spirituality
(32:30):
must be acknowledged as a piece of the explanation. I mean,
you're dude, think about it. You're on death's door. It's
a worse day or days of your life, and you,
the you that you think of as you yourself that
you has given up done so, and then your brain
and a last ditch effort to keep the whole show
going conjures up another version, a better version of you. Temporarily,
(32:54):
it says you're not alone, can't give up. Now hold
my hand, walk a little further over the next time, ill,
I will take you somewhere safe.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, And that version of you might be a loved
one that passed away, right because just because that's how
your brain ends up visualizing it, and it knows that
you will be motivated by that specific person.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Well.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
And so often we talk about the idea of experiencing
ghosts too, or like you know, what's apparitions out in
the world. Oftentimes we link those experiences back to memory.
You know, the idea of being haunted quote unquote or
visited by a loved one is really just a different
way of experiencing your love and your memories of that
(33:36):
person manifesting in a way that can help you.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
M hmm, yeah, one hundred percent. I mean it's a
positive conspiracy. It's a positive weaponization of very complex mechanisms.
I mean, science seems to imply that the third Man
factor is an internal conspiracy on the part of your brain,
but not to hurt you, just to try to help you.
(34:01):
And again we have to say this has not been
proven because spoiler, folks, it is cartoonishly difficult to study
this in a lab because you can't, you know, right now,
you can't legally strap a brain monitoring device on someone
and just slap them on the keyster and push them
out into the Arctic until they starve. You can't do
(34:22):
that just to see what happens.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
We're getting there with VR though soon enough.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Hey, that's actually that's a really good point, man.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, shut out Unit seven thirty one.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Also, their science was bad, Yeah, but act they were
doing crap like that.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
They were. They're part of the reason we have such
strict ethical guidelines now.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Also, what's that movie with Keith for Sutherland. I used
to love it where the those med students start taking
themselves to near death experiences Flat flights. Yeah, you guys
remember flat Lighters?
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Yeah? Not great but interesting and of its time.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
No, I love that concept.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Really, smart inquisitive people are like, you know what, let's
just kill each other a little bit and see what happens.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
Who's got the right blanket for this? That was a
big plot point, right, Flat Lighters. Jacob's Ladder was another
one kind of in that vat.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
That's a good one. Jacob's Ladder.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned that Ben the earlier.
When we were talking about this, the quote occurred to me.
What is it If you're dying and you're hanging on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away, But if you
make peace, then the devil has become angels, freeing you
from the earth.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Oh that's cool. Is that from Jacob's Ladder?
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yes, sir, it is.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Oh that's beautiful. Yeah, flat lighters, I will defend. I mean,
it's obviously no vibes, but it does show this idea
of you know, one of the I mean, it's a
horror movie. We won't to spoil it too much, but
one of the big debates they have for a while
is whether they are encountering external forces because they've pierced
(35:55):
the mortal veil or the mortal pale, or whether they
are doing something to their brains through near death experiences
that make them perceive an internal thing is an external thing.
And that's that's where we have to say, don't try
to give yourself an NDE. Now, even if you have
a lab don't do it. It's super tricky. And you
(36:17):
only have to mess up once.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Oh for sure, guys, you mind if I get one
more example just of this that found was really sweet
and maybe I don't know, it actually made me feel good.
It's another example that came from our buddy John Geiger
there from his the third Man factor, and this was
a person named Stephanie. Stephanie Schwab. I want to say,
who went into one of those underwater cave systems, you know,
(36:43):
the ones where people take their scuba equipment and go
deep into caverns that are labyrinthine and the only way
you know where you are inside that thing is through
a guideline that is connected to you and attached to you,
so you can then follow that line back out of
the system, because there's no way in the darkness of
(37:04):
that cave with your little lights you'd be able to
find your way out.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Well.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
In this specific instance in nineteen ninety seven, Stephanie lost
her guideline while she's deep in this cave system, and
she began running out of oxygen and panicking. And for
her at least, what she experienced was that her a
presence was with her that she ascribed to her recently
dead husband, who helped her calm down, find the guideline
(37:32):
at the very you know you're talking about time running out,
find the guideline, and pull herself out. I just think
that's amazing that she had that in her and had
that experience, which is really beautiful if you think about it,
But just that maybe all of us haven't in us
the potential to either save ourselves through all these mechanisms
we've described, or to actually get some kind of outside
(37:55):
help from someone who's been in our lives. I just
think it's I don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Sweet, and when it works out, it definitely is. We
also have to remember that there have statistically, if everything
we're saying is somewhat on base, there have statistically been
moments where the third man came too late.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, yeah, we would never know, right.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
We'll never know. There also is still a great stigma
around reporting or sharing these experiences. Partially that's because people
don't want to seem like they're off base, right or
mentally asymmetrical. The third man syndrome is a mysterious phenomenon. Still,
even this evening, we know something is definitely happening, But
(38:40):
what according to all the signs so far, that appears
to be the stuff your brain doesn't want you to
know and if you trust us. Folks, if you've come
this far with us, thank you again for your time.
We would love to hear your stories. If you have
encountered something like this, something you cannot explain, and if
any of what we've explored over these past two episodes
(39:02):
has spoken to you, tell us about it. We'd love
to learn more and we'd love to potentially share your
stories with your fellow listeners. You can find us via
email you give us a call. We also are on
all sorts of internet lines.
Speaker 5 (39:16):
It's right catch us outside online. That's where we are.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
We exist in the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist
on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,
on exfka, Twitter and on YouTube with video content Galora
for your perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, we
are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three STDWYTK. It's a voicemail system. When you call in,
you've got three minutes, give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on the air. If you got more to say,
then can fit in that voicemail, why not instead send
us a good old fashion email.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
rights back. Join us out here in the dark. You
can send us any old thing. We love episode suggestions.
We want to hear your third man stories. We also
welcome your jokes. Could I share one if we haven't
(40:15):
gotten to it yet. Guys, it's okay. H ZS. Rex
said something so good I had to write back to
you Directly's Evius. He said, my dog got into our
scrabble game. His next bowel movement could spell disaster.
Speaker 6 (40:32):
That's very funny, hey, at least it's definitely a cut
above humor.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
As Harry I will say that multiple cuts.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
So I'm bringing this up to thank you zus Rex,
and thank everybody who again trust us enough to reach
out and hang with us here in the dark. Join
us conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Ben Bowlin
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.