March 13, 2024 • 56 mins
Have you ever heard someone described as going "beserk"? Turns out there's a ton of strange history behind this phrase. In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel explore the bizarre phenomenon of berserkers, the elite Viking fighting force that remains shrouded in myth and controversy in the modern day.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mishing controlled decans. Most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
This evening, folks, we are returning to a bit of
a continuing obsession legendary mysterious fighters from ages past. Please
(00:50):
do check out our earlier series on assassins and our
recent episode on the Night's Templar. But tonight, this evening,
we're asking a question that haunted Western history for centuries.
What on earth were the Viking beerze Kerra? Were they real?
Here are the facts? I mean, before we do any
(01:11):
of this, we have to talk about the Vikings, because
those guys got a They're very popular in pop culture,
but I think they got a short shrift in the
historical record.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Remember that song and I think it was Clerks Sor
it's Jay and Son Bob and he's.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Like something something something some berserk to to to t
tou tou berserk.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
They say some naughty words in there, but they have
the first time I heard the word berserker, I guess
it's a very metal concepts, which makes sense for Vikings.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It stays with us, you know, like you'll you'll occasionally
hear in modern English, you'll hear somebody went berserk, and
it's uh, it's sometimes a compliment, but it all harkens
back to again, this thing that is sometimes described as
the special forces of the Viking culture. And I think
(02:05):
to really understand this, to get into it, we kind
of have to talk about the Vikings. Like before we
went on air today, we were just shooting the breeze
as we do before we record, and we're talking about
music that we like you were saying, no, we're talking
about music that we found harkening back to the berserks. Matt,
(02:26):
what was that?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What was that song you hit us to as from?
I think you say donheim d A n h E
I M. The name of that song was, Oh, I'm
gonna pronounce it wrong. It's whispered in the song ulf
I don't know how to say it right, or something
like that. They say, like, it's very interesting. It's just
(02:52):
it's this music that it's Norse folk music, and it
goes deep into my body and it resonates something that's
in there that you guys, it kind of makes me nervous, Like, bro,
I it sends shivers through my body. I get goosebumps
and I feel like warmth. I'm like, what are you
(03:13):
awakening in me? Bro?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Stop it?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
But then you shared a song.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
What was that one? Oh highlung? Yeah, the so there
is a there's a bit of a like housetuff works
backstory to that. So we are people with abiding interest
and very weird specific things that is true, that is known.
And the song we were sharing there is called Hilong
(03:40):
Norupo n O Rgupo. It is a re enactment or
a song inspired by the idea of religious ceremonies occurring
before a conflict.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, dude, there's something in there. There's something in there.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We'll speaking of stuff that gives shivers. Does this ring
a bell, guys?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Ah?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
They come from the land of the ice and snow,
from the midnight sun where the hot springs flow. The
hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands.
To fight the Horde, sing and cry Valhalla, I am coming.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And image. A lot of this is inspired by this
actual group, this culture that did exist. The Vikings are
legendary in their own right if you're looking at the facts.
These folks were a seafaring culture from what we will
call Denmark, Norway and Sweden today. Why do we keep
(04:41):
calling them legendary? Why do they inspire so much Western
culture and indeed, why do they inspire so much Eastern anime?
Shout out to the nerds in the crowd, it's because
we don't know a ton about them. Like even the
etymology Okay, there's a bit of a ride, but please
go here. Even the etymology of the word Viking is uncertain.
(05:04):
The prevailing scholarly conclusion is that it comes from the
old Norse word viking gear, which usually is taken to
mean pirate or raider, which makes sense because they raided
a ton of places.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and you can see that that reflected in the
imagery of popular culture. Right if you close your eyes
and you imagine a Viking. For me, it's on a ship,
one of those very characteristically quote Viking ships, and they
are on their way to shore, to perform a raid. Right,
that's like, I think that's the thing we see we
(05:41):
were talking about the Assassin's Creed, what has it been Valhalla,
the imagery on the front of that game, and just
how that is the quintessential version at least that the
West the way the West portrays what a Viking.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Is, and a lot of us, of course, or thinking
of Elmer Fudd and bugs Bunny the Valkyrie is.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, Wagner indeed he was fascinated by that too, for
some maybe problematic reasons. There's also a lot of associations
with Vikings with you know, white supremacy.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
But no way, Yeah, it's true, we get out of
here with those conspiracy theories. Is absolutely correct by the
way he is.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But it is an image of that type of human
being in a form of power, right, profection and almost
and fear. We're going to get into that, right, a
symbol of fear.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
The hyperborean concept that would later inform, uh inform a
lot of racist area ideologies. Right. So I do have
a pitch for favorite etymological theory on the Vikings. Uh.
The words origin could be traced to Old English and
(06:58):
Old Frisian uh vising with a w or vising also
with a w h. And these words are about three
hundred years older than the old Norse words. And if
this theory is true, if then game, then vising and
vising probably derived from vic, which is related to the
(07:22):
Latin Latin word vicus, which means village or habitation. So
logically we could say that viking ultimately means Paul. I
don't know if we can afford the sound cube, but
here we go. The village people nice rate at the
(07:44):
MC brother. It's funny too.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
I always go down these silly coper usually incorrect itmological
rabbit holes, but the German word for white is vice,
so just better thrown that out there.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That's I think that's kind of blowing my mind, man,
because I'm getting an image of what we're going to
talk about here with the berserker, specifically some of the
bear chested, bare chested fighting, some of the like almost
not sexualized, but the very I don't know, bear male
masculinity going into battle because there's some form of in
(08:24):
vulnerability perceived by like having fewer clothes and armor on hyperchats,
and then just now I'm just imagining that like vibe
that you get from the band the Village People.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
That Okay, yeah, they were a group of renegade folklorees
before they began. I think so their boy band, so
I like it too. We're going to see all these
threads come together in a in a weird tapestry in
tonight's episode from the late eighth century CE to about
the late eleventh century. So like, right when the crew
(09:00):
Usades are popping off, vikings are this massive expansionary force.
These guys were all over the place. These men and women,
by the way, were all over the place raiding, but
they were also trading. They were also settling and attempting
to create new communities for their culture. They got so
(09:20):
far they went to the Mediterranean, North Africa, the Middle East.
They were probably the first Europeans to create a settlement
in North America. They called Newfoundland, Vinland or Winland, and
this was once treated as a conspiracy. Turns out it's true.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
One more quick line from a Zeppelin song on we
sweep with thrashing or our only goal will be the
western Shore.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I mean, come on, it's like the image there, dude.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
What was that episode we did where we were looking
back at early North American exploration outside of indigenous peoples
that were it was a gosh, I can't remember the
name of it. You'll have to like search back through
our our shows. But we covered theories about early early
(10:11):
expansion into what we call in North America now by
people who would be maybe described in this way like Norse, Viking, whatever. Fascinating.
They're fascinating potential artifacts that date back to that time.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah. Man.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Also my favorite, like hanging out off air conspiracy, there
is the idea that what was that Eric the Red
conspired to mislead people in his explorations by calling the
icy waste Greenland, Yeah, and by calling the one place
you could live up there Iceland. Don't go there, don't
(10:48):
go Yeah, that's so fun. I always figured it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
The most beautiful place you've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Right right, It's no small barred islands. But for centuries,
Vikings were pretty misunder stood for a lot of us,
as Noel, Matt and I have described today and as
you are doubtlessly imagining in your mind, there is a
very clear imagistic association evocation when you hear the word
(11:14):
Viking like a hairy, horned helmet wearing marauder murdering and
pillaging his or her way up the European coast. And
it's just like endless cycle of raids and mercenary violence.
And usually the villain in those cases is portrayed as illiterate, uncultured, barbaric.
(11:35):
But here's the thing that's not entirely true. Vikings did
make inscriptions in ruins, but a lot of it was
like graffiti. Some of the earliest graffiti in fact is
it translates to English as something like Wagner was here,
and it's in ruins. And because literacy, as we understand
(11:58):
it was very late to the Viking game, a lot
of the history about Vikings was written centuries later by
descendants of their victims, their rivals, their enemies. It's kind
of like stories about the Night Templar. To be honest, I.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Can see the similarities there. It really goes back to
the scant amount of historical artifacts, right, the actual things
written down, actual things, what chiseled into stone somewhere.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
There's like a couple, Yeah, yeah, there's stuff, Like there's
stuff like Eric is cool? Who was ERICQ? The History Channel?
Eric with a K no doubt, Eric with a K
no doubt.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
But like you know, these folks didn't just like randomly
decide to rape and pillage their way across the globe.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Like there were real.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Reasons, functional reasons for this expansion, right Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I love that you point that out, man, because history
loves a very clear good and a very bad, and
unfortunately that's not how the real world works. The Viking communities,
what we call the Viking culture, that expansion, that cycle
of raids and pillaging, it was triggered by multiple social factors,
(13:16):
and I would say also ecological factors overpopulation, resource demand
at home. And then also again, they're not like the
super best people. They were noticing that nearby communities or
cultures that they could touch with their naval acumen. Those
(13:38):
communities were also struggling with similar domestic problems. They were
surviving in the wake of chaos, the wake of instability.
They were easy to get and so they got got.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Do you guys think that because of the nature of
just survival and the difficulty of living in this type
of time, that there would have been maybe a shorter
some of quote unquote good people because people didn't have
the luxury of being good. It was very doggy dog
I just I don't know. I think about this sometimes.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It's a good question. I mean to answer that we
would have to put in the piece of xenophobia, like
what do you consider also a peer member of humanity?
And that's something that humans continue to struggle with today. Thankfully.
One good thing about the age of abiquitous information is
(14:29):
that there are slightly more opportunities for empathy. But to
your point, Noel, in terms of good or bad, that's
often sort of a tinplate rationalization. The idea of absolute
good and absolute bad is kind of a convenience.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
The stuff of stories too. Really, it's an easy narrative.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Device, you know, Yeah, yeah, I mean think about it.
You know, you're you're just a regular farmer like everybody else.
You're just a humble farmer, like in that excellent film.
We got a couple of emails.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
It's up you've upgraded it.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I think it's a movie. He's a humble farmer, boy,
is he? Ever?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
H imagine you're this person and you know you're you're
breaking your heart over growing whatever crop you can grow,
and that all of a sudden in the distance, you
hear a deep resonant horn. Paul, can we get a
scared perfect, and then you're here like howling, Paul, can
(15:39):
we get some howling the animals? Yeah, and then you
look out across the coast and you see some ships.
That's how people encountered Viking. So no wonder they thought
they were monsters and maybe not quite human, look like.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Monsters with those outfits, right, I mean, if you're in
a place of superstition, this invading horror that you've never
witnessed before, they're literally decked out with devilish kind of
get ups, and you might well believe that they're supernatural
or not of this world.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But again, is that actually how they were dressed when
they came through? And how much of that is myth?
How much of that is psychological force projection? Which artifacts?
Though of these type of things, don't we is horned
some of them, the historical.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Record is pretty pretty scant. Again, like the horned helmets
just don't make a lot of sense in realistic combat.
Like it's there's a reason that most of the MMA
fighters you know, and most of the boxers you know
don't have long hair, they don't have a bunch of
stuff on their head, because when you are in malay
(16:47):
situations or melee situations. That's an opportunity to grab something
and introduce you to a kneecap. You know. True, so
they probably I don't know about the kneecaps, but anyway,
like horned helmets, we know they became. It's kind of
like how Coca Cola made the image of Santa Claus, right,
(17:08):
the horned helmets association with Vikings. There are some ancient
artifacts horns, primarily like horns like Paul just played that
have some engravings of people who appear to have horns.
But the idea of all Vikings wearing horns on their
(17:29):
helmets as a uniform comes about because of Wagner. It
comes about specifically in eighteen seventy six because Wagner had
a costume designer named Carl Emil Doppler, and Carl was
great at costumes, maybe not so much historical accuracy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, either way, what we do know is that they
are get ups. Whatever they may have been exactly, they
were going for a show of force and intimidation. And
I think that Egger's film The Northman, he's really well
known for really getting historical details right. Like in The
Witch they used like old English texts and stuff for
(18:07):
the dialogue. But I've read in multiple places that the
visuals like they had, like their teeth would be engraved
into like and it's a they got that detail in
the film, and a lot of the outfits and armor
and stuff, no horns I I don't believe in the
film are apparently pretty period accurate.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And it also depends, like period accuracy is tricky because
like even unto whether or not Viking communities had tattoos,
we know the technology was present, but we don't know
whether they engaged in it. Because again, when you have
a community that is only putting written records in ruins,
(18:45):
then you're kind of like trying to base your understanding
of a culture on their graffiti. It's sort of like asking,
you know, it's sort of like it's sort of like saying, hey,
you're a historian hundreds of year in the future, what
can you tell us about America? The only record we have,
by the way, is stuff written in barroom bathrooms, So like,
(19:11):
you know, there's a there's an emphasis then on perhaps
the wrong things.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
These folks were crass, These folks a lot of ding dongs.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
These folks had a love of Pallas. Yeah, and not
every Obviously, not every Norse person was a Viking, just
like how most of the templars at their height were
not warrior monks. You know, there was a lot of infrastructure.
I mean, the blood eagle thing is probably super embellish.
The nicknames like Ivar the Boneless and Ragnar hairy Breeches,
(19:44):
those were made up years and years after those biological
humans were well god typos, mistranslations, misunderstandings. There's one legend
that we think deserves closer scrutiny. What about the you're
what about this.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Now?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Before we get to that ben you said, blood eagle.
Let's just quickly describe it. If you're listening to this
and you've got kids in the car or something, skip
forward fifteen seconds.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
What's the work? Go quick easily? Yeah, okay. So the
blood Eagle, as popularized by the History Channel, its weird
right by the History Channel's program The Viking or just vikings.
I think it is according to the stories, it's a
(20:36):
method of ritual execution, and it's it's laid out in
the written record in poetry, which is open to interpretation.
But the idea is help me here, guys. The idea
is that you would sever the ribs of your victim
from the spine, right, with some sort of bladed instruments.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yes, with someone laying down on their stomach, basically right, and.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Then you would pull their lungs back and out and
stretch them such that they created a pair of grizzly wings.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
If you want to see it, picked a pretty grizzly.
It's in the film Midsommar by Ari Astor. No spoilers
as to who receives the blood Eagle, but it is
very much fully on display.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And when you get introduced to the characters in Midsummer, Yeah,
just guess which one that'll that'll make it pretty despicably obnoxious.
So how would we describe berserkers specifically, because they were
not your average vikings according to the stories.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Maybe what you might think of as a tank in
a D and D party, right, the biggest and burliest,
like a barbarian.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Two handed weapon wielder.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah, maybe sometimes they might have issue, you know, sometimes
they might have two little hatchets. Sometimes they might have
a big battle axe. Then they might be nude, right,
The main thing is they're naked. The main thing is
you can see they're junk, so they are but they're
they're clad in animal skins, right. Conventionally it's supposed to
(22:19):
be a bear skin, but it may also be any
other large predator. So we know Viking communities respected bears,
but also wolves also, you know, large wild dogs. And
and to think with those guys is they're so ten
toes down, they're so pawsed down on this that when
(22:40):
it is time to tangle, they kill whomever is in
front of them, even a friendly force. They're just swinging.
They're they're like bullets, you know, and the ships like
the gun.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah, well, I mean, but like they likely many of
them wouldn't survive because of their lack of armor. They
really were almost like comic cop type situations, you know.
And again just to reference the North the Northmen, they
take a lot of psychedelics in that film, a lot
of like weird you know, described psychedelic herbs or whatever.
(23:13):
I wouldn't be surprised if some of these berserkers were
also hopped up on some kind of go go juice.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's the idea. The main differentiation you've hit on it
is that they encounter some sort of disassociative mental state,
a feugue, a trance that gives them temporarily something like
a super soldier Captain America ask abilities. They take damage
(23:39):
that would incapacitate the average person, indeed, the average Viking.
They continue to fight on and they don't stop until
the battle is done. The trance leaves and if and
then they're weak, you know, and they're out of it,
we would say shock. I think most medical professionals would
(24:03):
call it these days. And if they do survive, if
they do not succumb to their wounds, they also have
short form amnesia. They have no recollection of what just happened.
So imagine it's like the trope from every Western werewolf film,
right or most of the I would say, the good
(24:24):
Western werewolf films. They wake up and they they're covered
in blood, and they're like, Eric, what happened? What the heck?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And he's like, good job, dude, And there's all amazing imagery.
We are describing the story of a berserker, right, Yeah,
the myth or the legend or the thing that is
out there right as what this thing is or could be.
We're not describing historical you know berserkers.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
The image, yes, the brand, which will become important later
over the centuries. Scholars wondered whether these warriors were an exaggeration,
a fabrication, maybe a secret group of drug users, maybe
a religious sect or wait, what were they even real?
(25:18):
Questionable answer after a word from our sponsors, Here's where
it gets crazy. Yes, I mean something like the berserker
was a real thing. Like there were definitely Viking warriors.
We know that that happened. They rated a ton of people.
(25:40):
You can trace that in the DNA of Scandinavia.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah, the word itself is often thought to arrive from
Old Norse berserker. It's just that the e, which translates
roughly to bear shirt. But like many of the things
involved in this tale, not everyone agree. Is you'll often
hear folks argue that berserker actually means bear shirt, like
(26:07):
they are e like Matt was a was alluding to
earlier or bear chested, once again implying the thing we
mentioned about them, you know, going in commando.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Yeah, and like you said, classic D and D Barbarian
inspiration for anybody who is interested in playing Dungeons and Dragons.
What you need to know is that your barbarian character
does better when they don't have a ton of armor.
If you want armor, you're looking for fighter class, paladin,
a couple types of cleric.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But you gotta put points into armor, you know, like
it's a thing like in and of itself, is a
superpower that you got to kind of cultivate throughout the game.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, it depends on depends on the game. I think
that's largely accurate. And speaking of depending on the game,
when we're playing the game of historical accuracy, we quickly
find that Berserkers as a concept sort of move back
and forth over the boundary of fantasy and fact. There's
a lot of speculation about these guys. There's a lot
(27:10):
of strange stuff out there. And because some of these
stories were created so long ago, more than a thousand
years ago, these they're treated as though they are fact.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
You could see sources, numerous sources that claim Berserkers had
superhuman powers, you know, like you could cut off a leg.
Oh crap, he's still coming, you know, How is he
hopping like that? How is he dangerously hopping toward me? Yes?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Think about how strategically advantageous that would be if you
could see those stories into the mythology of your army. Right,
So then when you do show up, when those horns
do sound off in the distance, right, and you see
that there are ships heading your way, and you've heard
(28:08):
stories about that very sound, and you know what's on
that ship. It's these berserker guys who are gonna get off,
you know, get off that ship and just immediately go
ham on everything in sight. That's like, that is terrifying.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, there may be three hundred of you, but you're
all usually farmers. There may be only you know, one
hundred and fifty other like operators on this ship. But
you've heard the stories.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, well maybe it only takes one. And even if
I do somehow lop off a leg, like you're saying,
this guy's not gonna stop.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
It's just so funny to me. He's like the most
dangerous pogo stick in Europe at this point.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
But just that what it would do to effectively have
people throw down whatever weapons or tools they had and
just GTFO. And there's a a very sparsely inhabited village
now that this ship rolls up onto because you've you've
scared everybody off, like well in advance of actually arriving.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
It's pretty smart. And we know that most people throughout history,
given the opportunity to learn are incredibly intelligent. I mean also,
it's funny to me that even in what we know
about Viking communities, the berserker class is typically not going
to be considered the cream of the social crop. They're
(29:32):
in North Sagas. Like in the old school North Sagas,
scholars often interpret villains as berserker characters, and it all
goes back to the penchant for killing their own like, oh,
there's not a war, I'm just hanging out in town.
Well screw this guy.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, Well, aren't there stories of them actually kind of
incorporating themselves into like a nobility, so like into the
king's circle or whatever, So that it's almost like, I imagine,
at least from the royalties perspective, having that weapon you're
talking about, right, and not a nuke necessarily, but or
a tactical nuke, but it is mad. Yeah. Right, So
(30:15):
if you if you've got a couple of berserkers on
your team that you could send in if you wanted to,
it would be Again for me, it's all about the
psychological bit, where if if some other king just across
the way knows that you've got a couple of berserkers
on lock Uh, They're like, no, I don't want to
(30:35):
mess with that guy.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Well, okay, so, berserkers, why are you the way you are?
What made you this way? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Damn mean, at this point there's there's no hard proof,
no conclusive proof of what informed this legendary brutality. And
we owe a big, a big thanks to Peter Pence,
who is the curator of Danish Prehistory at the Nash
Museum of Denmark and Denmark's National Museum is one of
(31:04):
the best sources on Viking lore and Viking history, and
so what he points out some of the things we
mentioned earlier. Pence says, again, this phenomenon of berserkers, it's
primarily known from written medieval era sources, not from the
Vikings themselves. One of the first written records of what
(31:27):
we would call berserkers comes from an Icelandic historian who
lived around twelve hundred, so again, several centuries after this
era of berserkdom had passed. And this guy, his real
name is Snorri Stirlson. That's not a real name, that's
his real name.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I love that so much, right, and yeah, okay, okay,
it makes sense at tracks It is Icelandic and lived
around twelve hundred CE.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Got it, And he writes to the Berserkers, where.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
A type of almost monk warrior in a way at
the very least imbued with Odin's wrath and his power
and blessing or what have you. He says that Odin's
own men went to battle without coats of mail and
acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit their shields
and were as strong as bears or bulls.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
A lot of animal illusions here.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
They killed people and neither fire nor iron affected them.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
This is called there's their garage.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, you get into that spiritualism thing. A lot of
it goes back to this concept that we like being naked,
at least to some extent when in battle, showed your
enemies that you at least felt invulnerable. And if some
of them believed some of the legends they thought you
were invulnerable, then just talking about the leg and keep
(32:50):
thinking about Poco guy again. But just that concept, right,
Gosh that like, I don't know, there's something too that
that goes so deep in this in the spiritual side,
in the like a like a holy warrior of some
sort by.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
The gods, yea, by zoos, psychos, you know, the psychos
that Elden Ring builds where they're basically nude, you know,
a flex man John.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I mean, that's that's my second character.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
But I thought it was solo. Also, there's a there's
another thing I want to point out here to uh,
the idea of fighting nude as a sig up still
occurs in the modern day. You get people out, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
At this point, if I ever get in the street fight,
that's the first thing I'm doing. Strip.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Okay, So here, I'm going to give you a tip.
And this is this is not I shouldn't even say tip,
but this is the this is okay, let me put
it this way without compromising any Imagine again, you're that
farmer and the the vikings are running at you. You
hear the horn, thanks Paul. You hear the howls, Thank you, Paul.
(34:09):
And then the people running at you are not just
naked and screaming and howling at animals, but they have
visible erections.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah right, I'm gonna work on that one.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
We'll see there we go, all right, Maybe maybe just
don't get into fights. That's the best way to handle
a fight is to avoid it in the first place. Well, gosh,
I'm just picturing sexual.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Occurred on the battlefield in the midst of it, covered
in blood, I mean, in some gnarly stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Shout out to Judge Holden for a new fans of
blood Meridian. So so to pence this idea from our
Icelandic historian way way back. It's interesting because as two
interpretations of berserker, one fighters who go to battle clad
only in animal skins, and then two fighters who have
some sort of preternatural, supernatural strength. And the question that
(35:10):
we've been obviously quarreling with because we are all grown ups,
is why would you go into battle but naked? It's
it's the sye up aspect. It always has been. It's
such a potent psychological weapon. If you're on the other
side and you've never encountered these people, if you're an
enemy on the other side, you're thinking, these guys are bonkers,
(35:34):
they don't give a f and it shows. It shows
like again, you know, if you've ever been in a
fight or an interrogation where the first thing you do
is harm yourself in front of your enemy to establish
the stakes of the encounter, then that's what's happening here.
(35:56):
Like if they don't care about their own personal safety.
What do they think about yours? Are they indeed? Are
they indeed and vulnerable due to the favor of a god.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
It's like when someone in a film or something allows
themselves to take a brutal beating and just like eggs
them on.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
You know, just to show that I'm insane. You know,
I try.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm thinking about everything you guys are saying. I'm trying
to find instances of a fenciclidine or PCP, like a
similar chemical that occurs in nature or something like is
I don't know if there is anything, I can't find
it in the moment at least, but like something like
that that would offer that dissociative thing we talked about,
but also the altered state to where pain perception goes
(36:40):
way down right, and all the things we're describing here.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
We have drugs at home, says the human brain, right
like you can you can create We'll get to that,
but you can create that. The thing is also we
have to bust a little bit of a myth. These
guys probably weren't just running around butt naked with bone.
They had weapons, they had shields, and according to Peter Pence,
(37:05):
again one of the best sources on this. Wolf skin
and bear skin do offer some protection against bladed weapons,
I just not as much as armor. But also on
a financial standpoint, it's easier to at this point to
kill an animal and wear its skin than it is
(37:27):
to craft armor, which is quite expensive in terms of resources,
time and finance.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Really quickly too, back to the potential drugs that they
might have been taking. I found an interview with David Eggers,
the director of the Northman Or. He talks about the
historical evidence of this, and it's something called henbane. Henbane
seeds were found in some Viking graves of folks who
were known to be serruses or witbals rats.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Exactly right, Ad, you can tell which direction we're heading in,
fellow conspiracy realist, We're going to take a pause for
a word from our sponsor, and then we're going to
explore the most legendary part of the story, the origins
of the berserker rage. We've returned. Over the centuries, there
(38:23):
have been multiple theories about this legendary rage or what
could have originally inspired it. In general, we can trace
it to three primary paths of speculation, and to be
completely clear, as a bit of a disclaimer, there's some
sticky stuff in here. We're not personally condoning it, nor
do we personally agree with it, but you need to
(38:45):
know the scholarship. The first one is religious fervor, Like,
what if these guys just got so hyped up, right,
inner circle of odin are we are the tip of
the spear? We are not for ourselves but for something larger,
indeed our God. Could that have inspired this rage? Could
(39:08):
you have been so consumed by this idea that you
would have been able to ignore revis injury like losing
a hand, you know, like the god tyr or you know,
losing a leg or something like that.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I mean, I'm going back to the Templars episode. It
feels similar to that, right, where if you have enough
conviction about your purpose, of the purpose of battle in
the moment and in general, I think you I think
the human mind can go past a lot of things
like that.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
It's yeah, physicality, I mean, belief is a hell of
a drug, right m m.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah. And it's surprising too, the association of bears and
wolves with elite warriors in what we'll call Scandinavia today
that far predates the age of Vikings. In the beginning,
it appears that this idea of a religious Berserker level
(40:09):
was linked to the concept of an inner circle of
Odin or Voden worshippers, and as time went on, the
religious links became less prominent and these guys became more
like your ordinary warrior of the day. And look, okay,
so sounds crazy. Sure. We have to recognize though, that
(40:33):
religious indoctrination can be very powerful. Members of modern cultic
organizations can be manipulated into acts they would not commit otherwise.
So I think there's some sand to this. We just
don't know how far it goes into the physiological aspects
of the legend.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Well, and Ben, you mentioned also that some of these
folks maybe were not exactly the cream of the crop
in terms of their ability to do other things which
you likely could interpret as mental health issues. Yeah, perhaps
developmental issues of some kind. And then because of the
lack of sensitivity around those sorts of things, they're like, oh,
(41:15):
you're perfect, let's give you up, big boy.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
You know, yeah, this is the sticky one. This is
more controversial, but there are scholars arguing Berserker were handpicked
on the basis of what we today would recognize as
mental health issues. The argument is, like, let's say there
are people, there are people in the community who have
what we will call schizotypal conditions, right, schizophrenia, disassociative disorders,
(41:43):
and so on, And then the argument is that instead
of executing them for witchcraft or like aanthropy, the way
so much of Europe later did, the leaders of these
communities would say, heck, yeah, man, you really are an animal,
and I've got a for you.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, dude, let's okay. It goes back to psychological warfare,
both exterior that we're talking about with the deaths, but
and interior, right, bringing some like really creating something like
that monster. Yeah, like your own golm. But it's a
human being that just had you know, suffers from dissociative states,
(42:20):
that is also really strong.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Turned on their masters. Of course, it's not your fault, bro,
you were a bear at the.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Time like that because it's so uncomfortable, But I could
I can see that functioning with these these two religious
fervor plus these mental health issues. If only you could
add one more thing, law and order vikings.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
I mean again, we're talking about all these pop culture
touch points. But like in the God of War most
recent God of War game Valhalla Rising, like one of
the characters turns into a bear. That's like they're you
know there there are a lot of transformations into animals,
but one of the really powerful ones into a bear.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
The proper word for like anthropy, what is it theoanthropy
or something like that. Shape shifting belief in shape shifting, well,
not just were wolfrey, it's any type of shape shifting. Yeah, weather,
so like skin walkers who in across the pond. But
whether that is metaphorical, metaphysical shape changing, or indeed physiological
(43:25):
shape changing, the belief is quite common in all the
cultures in these regions at this time. And this is
where to your point, Matt, into your earlier foreshadowing, you know,
this is where we add the third ingredient to the recipe,
the idea of drugs, the idea that these guys were
(43:45):
normal folks until they got into the ritualistic ingestion of
particular forms of hallucinogen or psychedelic It could it's often
described like you mentioned henbane. A lot of scholars will
say it could be a combination of herbs or mushrooms,
ingested in sort of a pre battle amped up ceremony.
(44:09):
So like right before you play a sports game, you
get in the huddle.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Almost like ayahuasca with that altered state, but not not
super agro exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Not looking for self actualization, but.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Imagine the ritualization of something like that. That's why I
thinking the ayahuasca rituals, where it's something that's very spiritual,
it's something you do and then you're off to the races.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Yeah, that was depicted in the In the Norsemen to
the Northman too, there was a scene where they do
a ritual using this stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
And suck like dougs exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yeah, and vulva volva is or so. Anyway, there is
a shamanistic class in Viking culture. These are what we
will call the holy folks, the seers, or the Syruses.
And there is historical precedent because we do know that
(45:03):
that class ritualistically ingested hallucinogenic substances to arrive at a
greater spiritual understanding. They were soothsayers, they were clairvoyance. According
to their communities, they participated in the non material world.
But there's I think there's logical leap there because none
(45:24):
of those substances have been found within the bodies of
like ingested in the bodies of these warriors. They may
have been buried with them to show that they had
an appreciation of that shamanistic class. But is it not
kind of like a future historian saying, in twentieth century
(45:45):
American society, some people did LSD and cocaine. Therefore all
marines were always on LSD and cocaine. It's kind of like,
I think there's a little too much red string connection there. Yeah, no,
I feel you. So does it feel to you, guys?
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Like the religious argument is maybe the strongest, because we
know how that can really transform the mind and make
you fear fearless, you know, if it's weaponized.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
In that way.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Maybe I'm thinking I haven't seen The Northman yet, guys.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Oh, it's so good. It's very good. It's time.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Also, Valhalla Rising, the Nicholas winning Refin movie, is also
about that same kind of air.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
It's also quite good. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Well, I'm looking at a clip from The Northman where
Byork apparently byk plays those witches called the Whispering Cirrus. Yes,
where I think that's what you're describing here at least
as what the imagery at least is is looking like
that to me. And I'm just imagining someone like that
(46:44):
in your not inner circle, right, but someone in your village,
in your city where you live. Would that person would
appear to have lots of power, especially depending on preconceived
notions and beliefs about you know, all of that stuff.
I can see that manipulation totally being a thing.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And now they're paying attention to you. Yes, weird audio
podcasts and no one saw it was a really cool move.
But there's also a shout out to uh Willem Dafote,
villain the ws and v's are getting to me anyway.
He's also one of those examples. And there were the
(47:25):
idea of these shamans. It was primarily female led, but
there were male identifying or non binary shamans in the mix.
That has proven that's part of historical record. If you
are that person, Uh, if you are considering a career
in berserkery, uh, there's one thing you have to know.
And I think there's a piece of the puzzle that
(47:47):
informs our episode. It wasn't a career for a lot
of these guys. What if going berserker was not an
all the time vocation. Peter Pence again one of the
best sources here. He notes that it may have been
an initiation ritual. It may have been a thing you
did once to get your stripes, to make your post,
(48:10):
to join the gang. So like, hey, you want to
be down with us? You really? Are you really cool
with the God of War? My guy? If so, you
can fight with us the first time, you gotta be naked.
We don't make the rules. Sorry, we don't make the rules.
That's God's call.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Well, yeah, you have to do this ritual and embody
the God of War and then you're in. That's fascinating
to me. I could I could see that as a
thing or just at least someone who's chosen right you
again going back to thinking, think about that person, A
special person chooses you for this mission, and maybe it
(48:49):
is just to get in, but maybe it's also a
special thing that like almost as a self sacrifice or
I see, I see, I see, I don't know, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
A passage, a passage to a higher socioeconomic status. And
if you die, a one way ticket to Valhalla. And
not everybody gets to go to the good death.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
But if you don't. You're rewarded here, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Yeah, you can get more freelance gigs in the proto
Blackwater or Academi or EXI, or for more stability, you can,
like we said earlier, be a bodyguard for the political class. Yeah,
and then your main job becomes being the dude who
stands behind the yarl or the king and just makes
(49:33):
crazy eyes.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Oh, in psychological warfare, because it's now their tails now
of you, this berserker that went into battle, enslayed all
these people, and now all you got to do, as
you said, Ben, is stand behind the yarl, and everybody
who looks at the RL sees you and they go,
oh crap.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
I know that is and then you just yes. And
the crazy stories they're like, did you really kill all
those people and eat their livers?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
And then just grunt God and it's and it functions
to protect the king, the you know, the person running
the place without actually having to do anything further.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
So, what do we think have we have we laid
out a good case? I mean.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
I think so. I'm freaked out that that music has
such an effect on me internally.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
I don't like this.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I don't want to have been a berserker in a
past life.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Guys, you got some bodies on those two hands.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Maddie, I have not technically nol is. I don't want
to put you on the spot, bro, but technically I
believe you're the most Nordic. Yeah, I was once a
young gentleman. Point well, I would say, with all this
in mind, we can reasonably conclude at the very least
the following something like there's a Geitra was real, operating
(50:53):
both before and during the age of the Vikings. They
probably did not have superpowers. They were not some weird
ancestor of Marvel super soldier serum. I personally do think
the story is more interesting if they were hopped up
on some kind of drug, but we we don't have
hard proof. That's not to say it didn't happen, it's
(51:14):
just to say that there isn't a lot of documentation
about it.
Speaker 4 (51:19):
I think too, that the combined with the religious fervor angle,
the mental illness angle is very interesting because you know,
there's all kinds of stories about folks who thought they
were communicating with God, but it turns out they may
have had schizophrenia or so. We've talked about that on
the show recently. So can you imagine if someone like
that was manipulated and like you know, browbeaten into believing
(51:43):
that they were communicating with God and that those voices
were voices telling them to kill for the gods, that
could be turned by Burk at the very least he got.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Burke, they could have they could have called them buerkers whatever.
So what seems most likely then is that the combatants
called berserker today their ranks were probably composed of young
men seeking wealth and status in society, possibly through intensely
(52:17):
dangerous positions in raids. In most cases, they were not
planning to make a career out of doing this every weekend.
There were exceptions to the rules. Probably your career, yeah right, exactly.
There were warlords that were there are always a couple of,
as they would say, bad apples. But one of the
best pieces for the evidence of the existence of berserkers
(52:42):
comes in ten fifteen Yarl Eric Hakanasson and Gagas the
medieval Icelandic stuff. They had a code of law that
made it illegal to be betzerkiir, and that means that
they did really exists. There's also a huge like stolen
(53:02):
valor aspect to this where like, it's really good for
your job if you're a raider, to have it be
believed that you were bozekir. Anyway, I think these the
thing is these exceptions they make a better story than
the truth. That's what their enemies latch onto when they
write these history books. And perhaps the best lesson in
(53:24):
twenty twenty four is that we see a very common thing,
and all too common thing. Power structures can, will and
do manipulate the vulnerable into very dangerous positions. Sign up, right,
delce et de koro mest pro patria mori?
Speaker 2 (53:43):
What did which one?
Speaker 3 (53:44):
Did we use that in? What was that?
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Thirteen Days?
Speaker 3 (53:46):
We used that? And no, we used it in.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
One of the things you wrote for this show?
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right?
Speaker 4 (53:52):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (53:53):
Maybe it's the English is it is both sweet and
fitting to die for one's country. It's an old war poem.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Gosh, I know, I swear, I swear you've used it
in something that we did that was fictional, that was
awesome and I can't remember it right now.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
I use it.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
It's an it's an easter egg somewhere that somebody's gonna find.
I think it also is a lesson about the psychological
warfare that these same groups will use right uh not
about not just to get someone to become a berserker
or get someone to go on a mission like that,
but using fear to control the uh up the opposition right,
(54:35):
internal and external fear.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
I think agreed, And perhaps these are the things the
modern world doesn't want you to know. But you know
what we want to know, folks. We want to know
your thoughts. We can't wait to hear your stories of
other legendary fighting groups. Tell us if you think they
got a short shrift, tell us if any of the
(54:59):
legends are true. We try to be easy to find online. Correct.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where
we exist on Facebook, on x FKA, Twitter, and on
YouTube where you can find new video content coming out
every single week. And boy do we have some doozies
coming your way. On Instagram and TikTok, you can find
us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Show.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
As we said at the top, if you liked this episode,
head back to October twenty twenty and listen to our
two part series on assassins. It's they're excellent. Listen to
them both because the story flows all the way through
the thing. We also have a phone number. It's one
eight three three std WYTK. It's a voicemail. You've got
(55:42):
three minutes, give yourself a cool nickname and let us
know if we can use your voice on the air.
If you've got more to say than can fit in
that message, why not instead send us an email.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mishing controlled decans. Most importantly, you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
This evening, folks, we are returning to a bit of
a continuing obsession legendary mysterious fighters from ages past. Please
(00:50):
do check out our earlier series on assassins and our
recent episode on the Night's Templar. But tonight, this evening,
we're asking a question that haunted Western history for centuries.
What on earth were the Viking beerze Kerra? Were they real?
Here are the facts? I mean, before we do any
(01:11):
of this, we have to talk about the Vikings, because
those guys got a They're very popular in pop culture,
but I think they got a short shrift in the
historical record.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Remember that song and I think it was Clerks Sor
it's Jay and Son Bob and he's.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Like something something something some berserk to to to t
tou tou berserk.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
They say some naughty words in there, but they have
the first time I heard the word berserker, I guess
it's a very metal concepts, which makes sense for Vikings.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It stays with us, you know, like you'll you'll occasionally
hear in modern English, you'll hear somebody went berserk, and
it's uh, it's sometimes a compliment, but it all harkens
back to again, this thing that is sometimes described as
the special forces of the Viking culture. And I think
(02:05):
to really understand this, to get into it, we kind
of have to talk about the Vikings. Like before we
went on air today, we were just shooting the breeze
as we do before we record, and we're talking about
music that we like you were saying, no, we're talking
about music that we found harkening back to the berserks. Matt,
(02:26):
what was that?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What was that song you hit us to as from?
I think you say donheim d A n h E
I M. The name of that song was, Oh, I'm
gonna pronounce it wrong. It's whispered in the song ulf
I don't know how to say it right, or something
like that. They say, like, it's very interesting. It's just
(02:52):
it's this music that it's Norse folk music, and it
goes deep into my body and it resonates something that's
in there that you guys, it kind of makes me nervous, Like, bro,
I it sends shivers through my body. I get goosebumps
and I feel like warmth. I'm like, what are you
(03:13):
awakening in me? Bro?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Stop it?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
But then you shared a song.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
What was that one? Oh highlung? Yeah, the so there
is a there's a bit of a like housetuff works
backstory to that. So we are people with abiding interest
and very weird specific things that is true, that is known.
And the song we were sharing there is called Hilong
(03:40):
Norupo n O Rgupo. It is a re enactment or
a song inspired by the idea of religious ceremonies occurring
before a conflict.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, dude, there's something in there. There's something in there.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We'll speaking of stuff that gives shivers. Does this ring
a bell, guys?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Ah?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
They come from the land of the ice and snow,
from the midnight sun where the hot springs flow. The
hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands.
To fight the Horde, sing and cry Valhalla, I am coming.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And image. A lot of this is inspired by this
actual group, this culture that did exist. The Vikings are
legendary in their own right if you're looking at the facts.
These folks were a seafaring culture from what we will
call Denmark, Norway and Sweden today. Why do we keep
(04:41):
calling them legendary? Why do they inspire so much Western
culture and indeed, why do they inspire so much Eastern anime?
Shout out to the nerds in the crowd, it's because
we don't know a ton about them. Like even the
etymology Okay, there's a bit of a ride, but please
go here. Even the etymology of the word Viking is uncertain.
(05:04):
The prevailing scholarly conclusion is that it comes from the
old Norse word viking gear, which usually is taken to
mean pirate or raider, which makes sense because they raided
a ton of places.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and you can see that that reflected in the
imagery of popular culture. Right if you close your eyes
and you imagine a Viking. For me, it's on a ship,
one of those very characteristically quote Viking ships, and they
are on their way to shore, to perform a raid. Right,
that's like, I think that's the thing we see we
(05:41):
were talking about the Assassin's Creed, what has it been Valhalla,
the imagery on the front of that game, and just
how that is the quintessential version at least that the
West the way the West portrays what a Viking.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Is, and a lot of us, of course, or thinking
of Elmer Fudd and bugs Bunny the Valkyrie is.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, Wagner indeed he was fascinated by that too, for
some maybe problematic reasons. There's also a lot of associations
with Vikings with you know, white supremacy.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
But no way, Yeah, it's true, we get out of
here with those conspiracy theories. Is absolutely correct by the
way he is.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But it is an image of that type of human
being in a form of power, right, profection and almost
and fear. We're going to get into that, right, a
symbol of fear.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
The hyperborean concept that would later inform, uh inform a
lot of racist area ideologies. Right. So I do have
a pitch for favorite etymological theory on the Vikings. Uh.
The words origin could be traced to Old English and
(06:58):
Old Frisian uh vising with a w or vising also
with a w h. And these words are about three
hundred years older than the old Norse words. And if
this theory is true, if then game, then vising and
vising probably derived from vic, which is related to the
(07:22):
Latin Latin word vicus, which means village or habitation. So
logically we could say that viking ultimately means Paul. I
don't know if we can afford the sound cube, but
here we go. The village people nice rate at the
(07:44):
MC brother. It's funny too.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
I always go down these silly coper usually incorrect itmological
rabbit holes, but the German word for white is vice,
so just better thrown that out there.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That's I think that's kind of blowing my mind, man,
because I'm getting an image of what we're going to
talk about here with the berserker, specifically some of the
bear chested, bare chested fighting, some of the like almost
not sexualized, but the very I don't know, bear male
masculinity going into battle because there's some form of in
(08:24):
vulnerability perceived by like having fewer clothes and armor on hyperchats,
and then just now I'm just imagining that like vibe
that you get from the band the Village People.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
That Okay, yeah, they were a group of renegade folklorees
before they began. I think so their boy band, so
I like it too. We're going to see all these
threads come together in a in a weird tapestry in
tonight's episode from the late eighth century CE to about
the late eleventh century. So like, right when the crew
(09:00):
Usades are popping off, vikings are this massive expansionary force.
These guys were all over the place. These men and women,
by the way, were all over the place raiding, but
they were also trading. They were also settling and attempting
to create new communities for their culture. They got so
(09:20):
far they went to the Mediterranean, North Africa, the Middle East.
They were probably the first Europeans to create a settlement
in North America. They called Newfoundland, Vinland or Winland, and
this was once treated as a conspiracy. Turns out it's true.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
One more quick line from a Zeppelin song on we
sweep with thrashing or our only goal will be the
western Shore.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I mean, come on, it's like the image there, dude.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
What was that episode we did where we were looking
back at early North American exploration outside of indigenous peoples
that were it was a gosh, I can't remember the
name of it. You'll have to like search back through
our our shows. But we covered theories about early early
(10:11):
expansion into what we call in North America now by
people who would be maybe described in this way like Norse, Viking, whatever. Fascinating.
They're fascinating potential artifacts that date back to that time.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah. Man.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Also my favorite, like hanging out off air conspiracy, there
is the idea that what was that Eric the Red
conspired to mislead people in his explorations by calling the
icy waste Greenland, Yeah, and by calling the one place
you could live up there Iceland. Don't go there, don't
(10:48):
go Yeah, that's so fun. I always figured it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
The most beautiful place you've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Right right, It's no small barred islands. But for centuries,
Vikings were pretty misunder stood for a lot of us,
as Noel, Matt and I have described today and as
you are doubtlessly imagining in your mind, there is a
very clear imagistic association evocation when you hear the word
(11:14):
Viking like a hairy, horned helmet wearing marauder murdering and
pillaging his or her way up the European coast. And
it's just like endless cycle of raids and mercenary violence.
And usually the villain in those cases is portrayed as illiterate, uncultured, barbaric.
(11:35):
But here's the thing that's not entirely true. Vikings did
make inscriptions in ruins, but a lot of it was
like graffiti. Some of the earliest graffiti in fact is
it translates to English as something like Wagner was here,
and it's in ruins. And because literacy, as we understand
(11:58):
it was very late to the Viking game, a lot
of the history about Vikings was written centuries later by
descendants of their victims, their rivals, their enemies. It's kind
of like stories about the Night Templar. To be honest, I.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Can see the similarities there. It really goes back to
the scant amount of historical artifacts, right, the actual things
written down, actual things, what chiseled into stone somewhere.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
There's like a couple, Yeah, yeah, there's stuff, Like there's
stuff like Eric is cool? Who was ERICQ? The History Channel?
Eric with a K no doubt, Eric with a K
no doubt.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
But like you know, these folks didn't just like randomly
decide to rape and pillage their way across the globe.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Like there were real.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Reasons, functional reasons for this expansion, right Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I love that you point that out, man, because history
loves a very clear good and a very bad, and
unfortunately that's not how the real world works. The Viking communities,
what we call the Viking culture, that expansion, that cycle
of raids and pillaging, it was triggered by multiple social factors,
(13:16):
and I would say also ecological factors overpopulation, resource demand
at home. And then also again, they're not like the
super best people. They were noticing that nearby communities or
cultures that they could touch with their naval acumen. Those
(13:38):
communities were also struggling with similar domestic problems. They were
surviving in the wake of chaos, the wake of instability.
They were easy to get and so they got got.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Do you guys think that because of the nature of
just survival and the difficulty of living in this type
of time, that there would have been maybe a shorter
some of quote unquote good people because people didn't have
the luxury of being good. It was very doggy dog
I just I don't know. I think about this sometimes.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It's a good question. I mean to answer that we
would have to put in the piece of xenophobia, like
what do you consider also a peer member of humanity?
And that's something that humans continue to struggle with today. Thankfully.
One good thing about the age of abiquitous information is
(14:29):
that there are slightly more opportunities for empathy. But to
your point, Noel, in terms of good or bad, that's
often sort of a tinplate rationalization. The idea of absolute
good and absolute bad is kind of a convenience.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
The stuff of stories too. Really, it's an easy narrative.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Device, you know, Yeah, yeah, I mean think about it.
You know, you're you're just a regular farmer like everybody else.
You're just a humble farmer, like in that excellent film.
We got a couple of emails.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
It's up you've upgraded it.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I think it's a movie. He's a humble farmer, boy,
is he? Ever?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
H imagine you're this person and you know you're you're
breaking your heart over growing whatever crop you can grow,
and that all of a sudden in the distance, you
hear a deep resonant horn. Paul, can we get a
scared perfect, and then you're here like howling, Paul, can
(15:39):
we get some howling the animals? Yeah, and then you
look out across the coast and you see some ships.
That's how people encountered Viking. So no wonder they thought
they were monsters and maybe not quite human, look like.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Monsters with those outfits, right, I mean, if you're in
a place of superstition, this invading horror that you've never
witnessed before, they're literally decked out with devilish kind of
get ups, and you might well believe that they're supernatural
or not of this world.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But again, is that actually how they were dressed when
they came through? And how much of that is myth?
How much of that is psychological force projection? Which artifacts?
Though of these type of things, don't we is horned
some of them, the historical.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Record is pretty pretty scant. Again, like the horned helmets
just don't make a lot of sense in realistic combat.
Like it's there's a reason that most of the MMA
fighters you know, and most of the boxers you know
don't have long hair, they don't have a bunch of
stuff on their head, because when you are in malay
(16:47):
situations or melee situations. That's an opportunity to grab something
and introduce you to a kneecap. You know. True, so
they probably I don't know about the kneecaps, but anyway,
like horned helmets, we know they became. It's kind of
like how Coca Cola made the image of Santa Claus, right,
(17:08):
the horned helmets association with Vikings. There are some ancient
artifacts horns, primarily like horns like Paul just played that
have some engravings of people who appear to have horns.
But the idea of all Vikings wearing horns on their
(17:29):
helmets as a uniform comes about because of Wagner. It
comes about specifically in eighteen seventy six because Wagner had
a costume designer named Carl Emil Doppler, and Carl was
great at costumes, maybe not so much historical accuracy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, either way, what we do know is that they
are get ups. Whatever they may have been exactly, they
were going for a show of force and intimidation. And
I think that Egger's film The Northman, he's really well
known for really getting historical details right. Like in The
Witch they used like old English texts and stuff for
(18:07):
the dialogue. But I've read in multiple places that the
visuals like they had, like their teeth would be engraved
into like and it's a they got that detail in
the film, and a lot of the outfits and armor
and stuff, no horns I I don't believe in the
film are apparently pretty period accurate.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And it also depends, like period accuracy is tricky because
like even unto whether or not Viking communities had tattoos,
we know the technology was present, but we don't know
whether they engaged in it. Because again, when you have
a community that is only putting written records in ruins,
(18:45):
then you're kind of like trying to base your understanding
of a culture on their graffiti. It's sort of like asking,
you know, it's sort of like it's sort of like saying, hey,
you're a historian hundreds of year in the future, what
can you tell us about America? The only record we have,
by the way, is stuff written in barroom bathrooms, So like,
(19:11):
you know, there's a there's an emphasis then on perhaps
the wrong things.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
These folks were crass, These folks a lot of ding dongs.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
These folks had a love of Pallas. Yeah, and not
every Obviously, not every Norse person was a Viking, just
like how most of the templars at their height were
not warrior monks. You know, there was a lot of infrastructure.
I mean, the blood eagle thing is probably super embellish.
The nicknames like Ivar the Boneless and Ragnar hairy Breeches,
(19:44):
those were made up years and years after those biological
humans were well god typos, mistranslations, misunderstandings. There's one legend
that we think deserves closer scrutiny. What about the you're
what about this.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Now?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Before we get to that ben you said, blood eagle.
Let's just quickly describe it. If you're listening to this
and you've got kids in the car or something, skip
forward fifteen seconds.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
What's the work? Go quick easily? Yeah, okay. So the
blood Eagle, as popularized by the History Channel, its weird
right by the History Channel's program The Viking or just vikings.
I think it is according to the stories, it's a
(20:36):
method of ritual execution, and it's it's laid out in
the written record in poetry, which is open to interpretation.
But the idea is help me here, guys. The idea
is that you would sever the ribs of your victim
from the spine, right, with some sort of bladed instruments.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yes, with someone laying down on their stomach, basically right, and.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Then you would pull their lungs back and out and
stretch them such that they created a pair of grizzly wings.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
If you want to see it, picked a pretty grizzly.
It's in the film Midsommar by Ari Astor. No spoilers
as to who receives the blood Eagle, but it is
very much fully on display.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And when you get introduced to the characters in Midsummer, Yeah,
just guess which one that'll that'll make it pretty despicably obnoxious.
So how would we describe berserkers specifically, because they were
not your average vikings according to the stories.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Maybe what you might think of as a tank in
a D and D party, right, the biggest and burliest,
like a barbarian.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Two handed weapon wielder.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah, maybe sometimes they might have issue, you know, sometimes
they might have two little hatchets. Sometimes they might have
a big battle axe. Then they might be nude, right,
The main thing is they're naked. The main thing is
you can see they're junk, so they are but they're
they're clad in animal skins, right. Conventionally it's supposed to
(22:19):
be a bear skin, but it may also be any
other large predator. So we know Viking communities respected bears,
but also wolves also, you know, large wild dogs. And
and to think with those guys is they're so ten
toes down, they're so pawsed down on this that when
(22:40):
it is time to tangle, they kill whomever is in
front of them, even a friendly force. They're just swinging.
They're they're like bullets, you know, and the ships like
the gun.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah, well, I mean, but like they likely many of
them wouldn't survive because of their lack of armor. They
really were almost like comic cop type situations, you know.
And again just to reference the North the Northmen, they
take a lot of psychedelics in that film, a lot
of like weird you know, described psychedelic herbs or whatever.
(23:13):
I wouldn't be surprised if some of these berserkers were
also hopped up on some kind of go go juice.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's the idea. The main differentiation you've hit on it
is that they encounter some sort of disassociative mental state,
a feugue, a trance that gives them temporarily something like
a super soldier Captain America ask abilities. They take damage
(23:39):
that would incapacitate the average person, indeed, the average Viking.
They continue to fight on and they don't stop until
the battle is done. The trance leaves and if and
then they're weak, you know, and they're out of it,
we would say shock. I think most medical professionals would
(24:03):
call it these days. And if they do survive, if
they do not succumb to their wounds, they also have
short form amnesia. They have no recollection of what just happened.
So imagine it's like the trope from every Western werewolf film,
right or most of the I would say, the good
(24:24):
Western werewolf films. They wake up and they they're covered
in blood, and they're like, Eric, what happened? What the heck?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And he's like, good job, dude, And there's all amazing imagery.
We are describing the story of a berserker, right, Yeah,
the myth or the legend or the thing that is
out there right as what this thing is or could be.
We're not describing historical you know berserkers.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
The image, yes, the brand, which will become important later
over the centuries. Scholars wondered whether these warriors were an exaggeration,
a fabrication, maybe a secret group of drug users, maybe
a religious sect or wait, what were they even real?
(25:18):
Questionable answer after a word from our sponsors, Here's where
it gets crazy. Yes, I mean something like the berserker
was a real thing. Like there were definitely Viking warriors.
We know that that happened. They rated a ton of people.
(25:40):
You can trace that in the DNA of Scandinavia.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah, the word itself is often thought to arrive from
Old Norse berserker. It's just that the e, which translates
roughly to bear shirt. But like many of the things
involved in this tale, not everyone agree. Is you'll often
hear folks argue that berserker actually means bear shirt, like
(26:07):
they are e like Matt was a was alluding to
earlier or bear chested, once again implying the thing we
mentioned about them, you know, going in commando.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Yeah, and like you said, classic D and D Barbarian
inspiration for anybody who is interested in playing Dungeons and Dragons.
What you need to know is that your barbarian character
does better when they don't have a ton of armor.
If you want armor, you're looking for fighter class, paladin,
a couple types of cleric.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But you gotta put points into armor, you know, like
it's a thing like in and of itself, is a
superpower that you got to kind of cultivate throughout the game.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, it depends on depends on the game. I think
that's largely accurate. And speaking of depending on the game,
when we're playing the game of historical accuracy, we quickly
find that Berserkers as a concept sort of move back
and forth over the boundary of fantasy and fact. There's
a lot of speculation about these guys. There's a lot
(27:10):
of strange stuff out there. And because some of these
stories were created so long ago, more than a thousand
years ago, these they're treated as though they are fact.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
You could see sources, numerous sources that claim Berserkers had
superhuman powers, you know, like you could cut off a leg.
Oh crap, he's still coming, you know, How is he
hopping like that? How is he dangerously hopping toward me? Yes?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Think about how strategically advantageous that would be if you
could see those stories into the mythology of your army. Right,
So then when you do show up, when those horns
do sound off in the distance, right, and you see
that there are ships heading your way, and you've heard
(28:08):
stories about that very sound, and you know what's on
that ship. It's these berserker guys who are gonna get off,
you know, get off that ship and just immediately go
ham on everything in sight. That's like, that is terrifying.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, there may be three hundred of you, but you're
all usually farmers. There may be only you know, one
hundred and fifty other like operators on this ship. But
you've heard the stories.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, well maybe it only takes one. And even if
I do somehow lop off a leg, like you're saying,
this guy's not gonna stop.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
It's just so funny to me. He's like the most
dangerous pogo stick in Europe at this point.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
But just that what it would do to effectively have
people throw down whatever weapons or tools they had and
just GTFO. And there's a a very sparsely inhabited village
now that this ship rolls up onto because you've you've
scared everybody off, like well in advance of actually arriving.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
It's pretty smart. And we know that most people throughout history,
given the opportunity to learn are incredibly intelligent. I mean also,
it's funny to me that even in what we know
about Viking communities, the berserker class is typically not going
to be considered the cream of the social crop. They're
(29:32):
in North Sagas. Like in the old school North Sagas,
scholars often interpret villains as berserker characters, and it all
goes back to the penchant for killing their own like, oh,
there's not a war, I'm just hanging out in town.
Well screw this guy.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, Well, aren't there stories of them actually kind of
incorporating themselves into like a nobility, so like into the
king's circle or whatever, So that it's almost like, I imagine,
at least from the royalties perspective, having that weapon you're
talking about, right, and not a nuke necessarily, but or
a tactical nuke, but it is mad. Yeah. Right, So
(30:15):
if you if you've got a couple of berserkers on
your team that you could send in if you wanted to,
it would be Again for me, it's all about the
psychological bit, where if if some other king just across
the way knows that you've got a couple of berserkers
on lock Uh, They're like, no, I don't want to
(30:35):
mess with that guy.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Well, okay, so, berserkers, why are you the way you are?
What made you this way? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Damn mean, at this point there's there's no hard proof,
no conclusive proof of what informed this legendary brutality. And
we owe a big, a big thanks to Peter Pence,
who is the curator of Danish Prehistory at the Nash
Museum of Denmark and Denmark's National Museum is one of
(31:04):
the best sources on Viking lore and Viking history, and
so what he points out some of the things we
mentioned earlier. Pence says, again, this phenomenon of berserkers, it's
primarily known from written medieval era sources, not from the
Vikings themselves. One of the first written records of what
(31:27):
we would call berserkers comes from an Icelandic historian who
lived around twelve hundred, so again, several centuries after this
era of berserkdom had passed. And this guy, his real
name is Snorri Stirlson. That's not a real name, that's
his real name.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I love that so much, right, and yeah, okay, okay,
it makes sense at tracks It is Icelandic and lived
around twelve hundred CE.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Got it, And he writes to the Berserkers, where.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
A type of almost monk warrior in a way at
the very least imbued with Odin's wrath and his power
and blessing or what have you. He says that Odin's
own men went to battle without coats of mail and
acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit their shields
and were as strong as bears or bulls.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
A lot of animal illusions here.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
They killed people and neither fire nor iron affected them.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
This is called there's their garage.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, you get into that spiritualism thing. A lot of
it goes back to this concept that we like being naked,
at least to some extent when in battle, showed your
enemies that you at least felt invulnerable. And if some
of them believed some of the legends they thought you
were invulnerable, then just talking about the leg and keep
(32:50):
thinking about Poco guy again. But just that concept, right,
Gosh that like, I don't know, there's something too that
that goes so deep in this in the spiritual side,
in the like a like a holy warrior of some
sort by.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
The gods, yea, by zoos, psychos, you know, the psychos
that Elden Ring builds where they're basically nude, you know,
a flex man John.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I mean, that's that's my second character.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
But I thought it was solo. Also, there's a there's
another thing I want to point out here to uh,
the idea of fighting nude as a sig up still
occurs in the modern day. You get people out, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
At this point, if I ever get in the street fight,
that's the first thing I'm doing. Strip.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Okay, So here, I'm going to give you a tip.
And this is this is not I shouldn't even say tip,
but this is the this is okay, let me put
it this way without compromising any Imagine again, you're that
farmer and the the vikings are running at you. You
hear the horn, thanks Paul. You hear the howls, Thank you, Paul.
(34:09):
And then the people running at you are not just
naked and screaming and howling at animals, but they have
visible erections.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah right, I'm gonna work on that one.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
We'll see there we go, all right, Maybe maybe just
don't get into fights. That's the best way to handle
a fight is to avoid it in the first place. Well, gosh,
I'm just picturing sexual.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Occurred on the battlefield in the midst of it, covered
in blood, I mean, in some gnarly stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Shout out to Judge Holden for a new fans of
blood Meridian. So so to pence this idea from our
Icelandic historian way way back. It's interesting because as two
interpretations of berserker, one fighters who go to battle clad
only in animal skins, and then two fighters who have
some sort of preternatural, supernatural strength. And the question that
(35:10):
we've been obviously quarreling with because we are all grown ups,
is why would you go into battle but naked? It's
it's the sye up aspect. It always has been. It's
such a potent psychological weapon. If you're on the other
side and you've never encountered these people, if you're an
enemy on the other side, you're thinking, these guys are bonkers,
(35:34):
they don't give a f and it shows. It shows
like again, you know, if you've ever been in a
fight or an interrogation where the first thing you do
is harm yourself in front of your enemy to establish
the stakes of the encounter, then that's what's happening here.
(35:56):
Like if they don't care about their own personal safety.
What do they think about yours? Are they indeed? Are
they indeed and vulnerable due to the favor of a god.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
It's like when someone in a film or something allows
themselves to take a brutal beating and just like eggs
them on.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
You know, just to show that I'm insane. You know,
I try.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm thinking about everything you guys are saying. I'm trying
to find instances of a fenciclidine or PCP, like a
similar chemical that occurs in nature or something like is
I don't know if there is anything, I can't find
it in the moment at least, but like something like
that that would offer that dissociative thing we talked about,
but also the altered state to where pain perception goes
(36:40):
way down right, and all the things we're describing here.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
We have drugs at home, says the human brain, right
like you can you can create We'll get to that,
but you can create that. The thing is also we
have to bust a little bit of a myth. These
guys probably weren't just running around butt naked with bone.
They had weapons, they had shields, and according to Peter Pence,
(37:05):
again one of the best sources on this. Wolf skin
and bear skin do offer some protection against bladed weapons,
I just not as much as armor. But also on
a financial standpoint, it's easier to at this point to
kill an animal and wear its skin than it is
(37:27):
to craft armor, which is quite expensive in terms of resources,
time and finance.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Really quickly too, back to the potential drugs that they
might have been taking. I found an interview with David Eggers,
the director of the Northman Or. He talks about the
historical evidence of this, and it's something called henbane. Henbane
seeds were found in some Viking graves of folks who
were known to be serruses or witbals rats.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Exactly right, Ad, you can tell which direction we're heading in,
fellow conspiracy realist, We're going to take a pause for
a word from our sponsor, and then we're going to
explore the most legendary part of the story, the origins
of the berserker rage. We've returned. Over the centuries, there
(38:23):
have been multiple theories about this legendary rage or what
could have originally inspired it. In general, we can trace
it to three primary paths of speculation, and to be
completely clear, as a bit of a disclaimer, there's some
sticky stuff in here. We're not personally condoning it, nor
do we personally agree with it, but you need to
(38:45):
know the scholarship. The first one is religious fervor, Like,
what if these guys just got so hyped up, right,
inner circle of odin are we are the tip of
the spear? We are not for ourselves but for something larger,
indeed our God. Could that have inspired this rage? Could
(39:08):
you have been so consumed by this idea that you
would have been able to ignore revis injury like losing
a hand, you know, like the god tyr or you know,
losing a leg or something like that.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I mean, I'm going back to the Templars episode. It
feels similar to that, right, where if you have enough
conviction about your purpose, of the purpose of battle in
the moment and in general, I think you I think
the human mind can go past a lot of things
like that.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
It's yeah, physicality, I mean, belief is a hell of
a drug, right m m.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah. And it's surprising too, the association of bears and
wolves with elite warriors in what we'll call Scandinavia today
that far predates the age of Vikings. In the beginning,
it appears that this idea of a religious Berserker level
(40:09):
was linked to the concept of an inner circle of
Odin or Voden worshippers, and as time went on, the
religious links became less prominent and these guys became more
like your ordinary warrior of the day. And look, okay,
so sounds crazy. Sure. We have to recognize though, that
(40:33):
religious indoctrination can be very powerful. Members of modern cultic
organizations can be manipulated into acts they would not commit otherwise.
So I think there's some sand to this. We just
don't know how far it goes into the physiological aspects
of the legend.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Well, and Ben, you mentioned also that some of these
folks maybe were not exactly the cream of the crop
in terms of their ability to do other things which
you likely could interpret as mental health issues. Yeah, perhaps
developmental issues of some kind. And then because of the
lack of sensitivity around those sorts of things, they're like, oh,
(41:15):
you're perfect, let's give you up, big boy.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
You know, yeah, this is the sticky one. This is
more controversial, but there are scholars arguing Berserker were handpicked
on the basis of what we today would recognize as
mental health issues. The argument is, like, let's say there
are people, there are people in the community who have
what we will call schizotypal conditions, right, schizophrenia, disassociative disorders,
(41:43):
and so on, And then the argument is that instead
of executing them for witchcraft or like aanthropy, the way
so much of Europe later did, the leaders of these
communities would say, heck, yeah, man, you really are an animal,
and I've got a for you.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, dude, let's okay. It goes back to psychological warfare,
both exterior that we're talking about with the deaths, but
and interior, right, bringing some like really creating something like
that monster. Yeah, like your own golm. But it's a
human being that just had you know, suffers from dissociative states,
(42:20):
that is also really strong.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Turned on their masters. Of course, it's not your fault, bro,
you were a bear at the.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Time like that because it's so uncomfortable, But I could
I can see that functioning with these these two religious
fervor plus these mental health issues. If only you could
add one more thing, law and order vikings.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
I mean again, we're talking about all these pop culture
touch points. But like in the God of War most
recent God of War game Valhalla Rising, like one of
the characters turns into a bear. That's like they're you
know there there are a lot of transformations into animals,
but one of the really powerful ones into a bear.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
The proper word for like anthropy, what is it theoanthropy
or something like that. Shape shifting belief in shape shifting, well,
not just were wolfrey, it's any type of shape shifting. Yeah, weather,
so like skin walkers who in across the pond. But
whether that is metaphorical, metaphysical shape changing, or indeed physiological
(43:25):
shape changing, the belief is quite common in all the
cultures in these regions at this time. And this is
where to your point, Matt, into your earlier foreshadowing, you know,
this is where we add the third ingredient to the recipe,
the idea of drugs, the idea that these guys were
(43:45):
normal folks until they got into the ritualistic ingestion of
particular forms of hallucinogen or psychedelic It could it's often
described like you mentioned henbane. A lot of scholars will
say it could be a combination of herbs or mushrooms,
ingested in sort of a pre battle amped up ceremony.
(44:09):
So like right before you play a sports game, you
get in the huddle.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Almost like ayahuasca with that altered state, but not not
super agro exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Not looking for self actualization, but.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Imagine the ritualization of something like that. That's why I
thinking the ayahuasca rituals, where it's something that's very spiritual,
it's something you do and then you're off to the races.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Yeah, that was depicted in the In the Norsemen to
the Northman too, there was a scene where they do
a ritual using this stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
And suck like dougs exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yeah, and vulva volva is or so. Anyway, there is
a shamanistic class in Viking culture. These are what we
will call the holy folks, the seers, or the Syruses.
And there is historical precedent because we do know that
(45:03):
that class ritualistically ingested hallucinogenic substances to arrive at a
greater spiritual understanding. They were soothsayers, they were clairvoyance. According
to their communities, they participated in the non material world.
But there's I think there's logical leap there because none
(45:24):
of those substances have been found within the bodies of
like ingested in the bodies of these warriors. They may
have been buried with them to show that they had
an appreciation of that shamanistic class. But is it not
kind of like a future historian saying, in twentieth century
(45:45):
American society, some people did LSD and cocaine. Therefore all
marines were always on LSD and cocaine. It's kind of like,
I think there's a little too much red string connection there. Yeah, no,
I feel you. So does it feel to you, guys?
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Like the religious argument is maybe the strongest, because we
know how that can really transform the mind and make
you fear fearless, you know, if it's weaponized.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
In that way.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Maybe I'm thinking I haven't seen The Northman yet, guys.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Oh, it's so good. It's very good. It's time.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Also, Valhalla Rising, the Nicholas winning Refin movie, is also
about that same kind of air.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
It's also quite good. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Well, I'm looking at a clip from The Northman where
Byork apparently byk plays those witches called the Whispering Cirrus. Yes,
where I think that's what you're describing here at least
as what the imagery at least is is looking like
that to me. And I'm just imagining someone like that
(46:44):
in your not inner circle, right, but someone in your village,
in your city where you live. Would that person would
appear to have lots of power, especially depending on preconceived
notions and beliefs about you know, all of that stuff.
I can see that manipulation totally being a thing.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And now they're paying attention to you. Yes, weird audio
podcasts and no one saw it was a really cool move.
But there's also a shout out to uh Willem Dafote,
villain the ws and v's are getting to me anyway.
He's also one of those examples. And there were the
(47:25):
idea of these shamans. It was primarily female led, but
there were male identifying or non binary shamans in the mix.
That has proven that's part of historical record. If you
are that person, Uh, if you are considering a career
in berserkery, uh, there's one thing you have to know.
And I think there's a piece of the puzzle that
(47:47):
informs our episode. It wasn't a career for a lot
of these guys. What if going berserker was not an
all the time vocation. Peter Pence again one of the
best sources here. He notes that it may have been
an initiation ritual. It may have been a thing you
did once to get your stripes, to make your post,
(48:10):
to join the gang. So like, hey, you want to
be down with us? You really? Are you really cool
with the God of War? My guy? If so, you
can fight with us the first time, you gotta be naked.
We don't make the rules. Sorry, we don't make the rules.
That's God's call.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Well, yeah, you have to do this ritual and embody
the God of War and then you're in. That's fascinating
to me. I could I could see that as a
thing or just at least someone who's chosen right you
again going back to thinking, think about that person, A
special person chooses you for this mission, and maybe it
(48:49):
is just to get in, but maybe it's also a
special thing that like almost as a self sacrifice or
I see, I see, I see, I don't know, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
A passage, a passage to a higher socioeconomic status. And
if you die, a one way ticket to Valhalla. And
not everybody gets to go to the good death.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
But if you don't. You're rewarded here, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Yeah, you can get more freelance gigs in the proto
Blackwater or Academi or EXI, or for more stability, you can,
like we said earlier, be a bodyguard for the political class. Yeah,
and then your main job becomes being the dude who
stands behind the yarl or the king and just makes
(49:33):
crazy eyes.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Oh, in psychological warfare, because it's now their tails now
of you, this berserker that went into battle, enslayed all
these people, and now all you got to do, as
you said, Ben, is stand behind the yarl, and everybody
who looks at the RL sees you and they go,
oh crap.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
I know that is and then you just yes. And
the crazy stories they're like, did you really kill all
those people and eat their livers?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
And then just grunt God and it's and it functions
to protect the king, the you know, the person running
the place without actually having to do anything further.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
So, what do we think have we have we laid
out a good case? I mean.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
I think so. I'm freaked out that that music has
such an effect on me internally.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
I don't like this.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I don't want to have been a berserker in a
past life.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Guys, you got some bodies on those two hands.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Maddie, I have not technically nol is. I don't want
to put you on the spot, bro, but technically I
believe you're the most Nordic. Yeah, I was once a
young gentleman. Point well, I would say, with all this
in mind, we can reasonably conclude at the very least
the following something like there's a Geitra was real, operating
(50:53):
both before and during the age of the Vikings. They
probably did not have superpowers. They were not some weird
ancestor of Marvel super soldier serum. I personally do think
the story is more interesting if they were hopped up
on some kind of drug, but we we don't have
hard proof. That's not to say it didn't happen, it's
(51:14):
just to say that there isn't a lot of documentation
about it.
Speaker 4 (51:19):
I think too, that the combined with the religious fervor angle,
the mental illness angle is very interesting because you know,
there's all kinds of stories about folks who thought they
were communicating with God, but it turns out they may
have had schizophrenia or so. We've talked about that on
the show recently. So can you imagine if someone like
that was manipulated and like you know, browbeaten into believing
(51:43):
that they were communicating with God and that those voices
were voices telling them to kill for the gods, that
could be turned by Burk at the very least he got.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Burke, they could have they could have called them buerkers whatever.
So what seems most likely then is that the combatants
called berserker today their ranks were probably composed of young
men seeking wealth and status in society, possibly through intensely
(52:17):
dangerous positions in raids. In most cases, they were not
planning to make a career out of doing this every weekend.
There were exceptions to the rules. Probably your career, yeah right, exactly.
There were warlords that were there are always a couple of,
as they would say, bad apples. But one of the
best pieces for the evidence of the existence of berserkers
(52:42):
comes in ten fifteen Yarl Eric Hakanasson and Gagas the
medieval Icelandic stuff. They had a code of law that
made it illegal to be betzerkiir, and that means that
they did really exists. There's also a huge like stolen
(53:02):
valor aspect to this where like, it's really good for
your job if you're a raider, to have it be
believed that you were bozekir. Anyway, I think these the
thing is these exceptions they make a better story than
the truth. That's what their enemies latch onto when they
write these history books. And perhaps the best lesson in
(53:24):
twenty twenty four is that we see a very common thing,
and all too common thing. Power structures can, will and
do manipulate the vulnerable into very dangerous positions. Sign up, right,
delce et de koro mest pro patria mori?
Speaker 2 (53:43):
What did which one?
Speaker 3 (53:44):
Did we use that in? What was that?
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Thirteen Days?
Speaker 3 (53:46):
We used that? And no, we used it in.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
One of the things you wrote for this show?
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right?
Speaker 4 (53:52):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (53:53):
Maybe it's the English is it is both sweet and
fitting to die for one's country. It's an old war poem.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Gosh, I know, I swear, I swear you've used it
in something that we did that was fictional, that was
awesome and I can't remember it right now.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
I use it.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
It's an it's an easter egg somewhere that somebody's gonna find.
I think it also is a lesson about the psychological
warfare that these same groups will use right uh not
about not just to get someone to become a berserker
or get someone to go on a mission like that,
but using fear to control the uh up the opposition right,
(54:35):
internal and external fear.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
I think agreed, And perhaps these are the things the
modern world doesn't want you to know. But you know
what we want to know, folks. We want to know
your thoughts. We can't wait to hear your stories of
other legendary fighting groups. Tell us if you think they
got a short shrift, tell us if any of the
(54:59):
legends are true. We try to be easy to find online. Correct.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where
we exist on Facebook, on x FKA, Twitter, and on
YouTube where you can find new video content coming out
every single week. And boy do we have some doozies
coming your way. On Instagram and TikTok, you can find
us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Show.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
As we said at the top, if you liked this episode,
head back to October twenty twenty and listen to our
two part series on assassins. It's they're excellent. Listen to
them both because the story flows all the way through
the thing. We also have a phone number. It's one
eight three three std WYTK. It's a voicemail. You've got
(55:42):
three minutes, give yourself a cool nickname and let us
know if we can use your voice on the air.
If you've got more to say than can fit in
that message, why not instead send us an email.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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