December 25, 2024 • 44 mins
It's December 25th, 2024. Across this wide world, people commemorate one of the most famous birthdays in all of history: the birth of Jesus Christ. Then as now, adherents of Christianity celebrate the coming of the Messiah -- yet why does this holiday occur on a specific date in, of all things, the Gregorian calendar? As the guys discover in this special two-part episode, there may be a conspiracy at play.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of Iheartrading.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is no they call me Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We're joined as always with our super producer Andrew Treyforce Howard.
Most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. We're recording on December sixteenth.
There are just fifteen days to the new year. As
the Gregorian calendar, which is kind of an up and
(00:50):
coming trend, reckons the passage of time. Guys, can you
believe it? There's always been a time or reflection. But
like looking back on this gear, I think we've had
some ups and downs, but hopefully we've had more ups
than downs.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
As a people, as a as a country, as individuals,
all three, perhaps all the above. Ben, I gotta say
that you're bearing the lead a little bit. You typically
put a lovely quote at the top of these outlines,
and you got a banger of one up top today.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
I'm gonna have to insist that you read. I'm gonna
have to insist that you read it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
That's too kind. All right, Well, with your permission, fellow
conspiracy realist, you won't be one of those bastards who
says Christmas is what's year and it's a fraud. It's not.
It can happen every day. You've just gotta want that feeling.
And if you like it and you want it, you'll
get greedy for it. You'll want it every day of
your life, and it can happen to you. I believe
(01:46):
in it now. I believe it's gonna happen to me.
Now I'm ready for it.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Turkey's for everyone.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
This is, of course, from the Seminole holiday classic film Scrooged.
I watched this for the first time in many years
last Christmas, and I also gave you my heart, and
I gotta say, guys, I think it's a bit of
a metaphor for late stage capitalism being great.
Speaker 6 (02:12):
Even this quote that you just read, it's like, let's
be greedy for Christmas and love and joy and good.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
It just is all about how you frame it.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I pulled the one part of the monologue that speaks
coherently because I feel a lot of it was improvised
by our buddy Murray. Uh, and a lot of it
is him sounding like a Wall Street capitalist mid No.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Yeah, and even what you put in here, it's got
that feeling for sure.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
But did you guys get that vibe about the film that,
like the thesis at the end, is very much giving.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
A pass to the stage capitalist. Remember I say what
no way, I mean, I just wanted to be explicit
about it. It's just, yeah, have you seen that scrooged
of late?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I have.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I it's it's well of late. Yes, it's been a minute,
but I.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Have seen screw.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I'm not saying it's not a banger of a fun movie,
but Fodcat gold Tway.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a better I don't know
that whole like, let's be greedy for Christmas to me
is better than you know, delay and I defend too whatever.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
The true Father Christmas, I'm just saying I'm down.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm more down, I think with let's just give everything
away rather than let's take take take tic take.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We're also going to find too. One of the one
of the things that Frank Cross gets to and Scrooge
towards the very end is this idea that perhaps the
specific date of Christmas doesn't matter as much as merchandising
would like you to believe.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
The way merchandising makes you feel, not the feeling so
you can be a.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Good person on a Tuesday.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I am so sorry, guys. Last thing on Scrooge does
in the world of Scrooge? Does a Christmas Carol by
Charles Dickens exist? Do they discuss it as a piece
of intellectual property existing in the world of that film?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, because you know, the whole thing is a show
within a show.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Right, of course they do the show and they're doing
a Christmas Carol, but of course everything aligns to the
actual ghosts that visit Ebenezer Scrooge, just.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Staple the antlers on. Would you call that, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Would you call that religious syncretism?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Ben?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I would. But I'm maybe not the best example, Noel,
because I have long argued that capitalism and our current
concept of economy is indeed a religion, and I've lost
the probably the most popular one in the world currently.
And look, you know, we're we're checking back right in
this historical time of introspection. What has passed? What is passing?
(04:56):
What has yet to come. Human society is always celebrated
around this time, partially because a lot of people died
when they ran out of food and it was like
really really cold. Yes, yeah, and through a great game
of telephone. Right now around this time of years, the
Gregorian calendar measures it. Christmas is one of the most
(05:19):
popular holidays on the planet. It's so popular that whether
or not you celebrate, whether or not you consider yourself Christian,
unless you live on North Sentinel Island, you have probably
heard of Christmas. It commemorates one of the most famous
birthdays in all of history, a guy named Jesus of Nazareth, who,
(05:40):
according to adherents of Christianity, is believed to be the Messiah.
But our question here is what if we don't know
the full story? When was Jesus Christ actually born.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Let's dive in to this historical mystery after we get
our Q four numbers in order we'll be repick.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Here are the facts, all right, This is doubtlessly familiar
to many of us in the audience tonight, unless you're
part of the growing demographic of folks on North Sentinel
Islands who love stuff They don't want you to know
seven by my current counts, I'm manifesting it, you guys.
So they're like, I think we all have on this show.
(06:38):
We've encountered Christianity in some capacity, whether or not we
consider ourselves specifically Christian. You know, many of us listening
along tonight do in one capacity to one degree or another.
So it's no secret that varying denominations or sex of
Christianity agree on the large points of the story of
(07:02):
Jesus Christ right, especially the death and in the beginning.
But they disagree on doctrine, and they disagree on some
of the specifics surrounding the narrative of Jesus Christ's birthday
or the first one, the Nativity. So maybe we stick
with the high level basic stuff for now. We don't
want to stir the pot too much. This is what
(07:24):
all Christianity largely agrees upon, and he comes from only
two sources, the Gospels of Matthew, not our matt a
different one and Luke.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, that is correct. And you have heard this story.
You've likely seen it in a manger scene driving by
a church. It is depicted symbolically there like very literally
symbolically in those major scenes. By the way, guys. As
a young and I've said this before on the show,
as a little tiny baby, I did play baby Jesus
(07:58):
in a manger. Christian parents, you are such a Snookham's Yeah,
But the story that we know is that Jesus Christ
was born in a manger on and it is often
said and celebrated on the twenty fifth.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Of December in the Gregorian calendar exactly. So that's the
other thing, right, Yeah, Jesus is born in a manger.
For any etymology fans, a lot of people might assume
a manger is a barn. The manger is the troth
where animals feed, which is by the barn where you
(08:34):
keep the livestock. And this manger, this barn situation is
in a town called Bethlehem. The child is born to
two parents, an itinerant carpenter named Joseph and his wife Mary.
Joseph is somehow descended from King David. There are a
(08:54):
couple of unique factors involved in this birth. It's not
the first barn birth and history by any means, but
Joseph is Jesus's earthly father figure. Jesus himself is the
result of what's called immaculate conception, meaning that Mary was
(09:14):
essentially impregnated by divine forces usually called the Holy Spirit
and a lot of translations, making him the literal son
of God. And you can see this in stuff like
Matthew one eighteen Luke one thirty five. That's one of
the points they agree on. You should be familiar with
the Nativity scenes. I remember having to act in several
(09:37):
of those. It's always fun, you know what I mean,
Because often churches will have a bunch of the kids
or the youth group do the Nativity play, and I
still like watching them, you know what I mean. I
don't think it'd be fair for me to be in
one now because I'd be taking a role from a child,
(09:58):
But but I do think it's always a good show.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
I think I was a shepherd of some stripe at
some point, wearing a big fake beard as a child,
which is always delightful to behold.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I've played, this is true everyone at some Nativity play.
I've played everyone except for Mary Ah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That is so awesome. Still time then we three Kings
of Oriental, so I did that when I had again
when I was based. I love it, guys. Let's just
point out the tradition here of God's impregnating mortals.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's a very It's not in originals.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Oh no, it's all over Greek mythology.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, especially Zeus.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Zeus really and the Swan and all that.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, yeah, but Zeus was stealthy chicks left and right.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Much, I know. But it is just an interesting concept here, right,
I mean this, this first idea that we encounter is
it is magical in a lot of different ways. Right,
some force impregnated a woman that had nothing to do
with the ways that we are aware humans can conceive.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
In an important distinction. And I love this because this
feels like an allusion to the work of Joseph Campbell
or Fraser's The Golden beow This, which are great reads
if you're into folklore seminal works. What I would say
differentiates this origin story from other stories of what would
(11:31):
be called demi gods outside of Christianity is that it
is heavily implied. This is consensual. That is not the
case in a lot of other stories, which by the way,
are one to one beat for beat story wise, what
you would call alien abductions today.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, I reference the Leah and the Swan story.
I had to google to make sure I wasn't just
making that up, but it was.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, let's gree when Zeus came down from Olympus and
seduced and impregnated Lead a Spartan queen.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
In the form of a swan. I want to know
how they worked.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Seduced is doing a lot of heavy lifting in translation
there there might be an R word involved, not sound well, there's.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
A lot of wing flapping.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I can imagine swan.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Dudes don't have one.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Swans don't have penises, though they have like a don't
they have like a kloaca situation or like it's they
don't have penis. Yeah, so how could you impregnate a
human woman in the form of a swan. There's a
lot of I'm sorry, I'm like getting hung up on
the magical pallas, which.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Is their equivalent of a penis that goes into the kloake.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I see, but they're not all corkscrewy like the ducks,
right or they because.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Ducks are, or at least Zeus swans.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, yeah, ducks very much are this So going back
to this guy Jesus, he was or is if you like,
depending on your your personal beliefs Galilean from Nazareth, and
Nazareth is this valley, which is near one of the
two big cities in Galilee. Sophorists during this time, during
(13:12):
the time that Joseph and Mary are figuring this stuff
out and expecting this kid, there's a real pos, a
real pill, an absolute heel named King Herod, who controls
the area, controls Judea, and the Gospel of Luke tells
us that God sent an angel, a pretty famous angel Gabriel,
(13:33):
to Earth, and according to Luke, the angel goes to
Mary and says, look, you're gonna advocate e'xci me. Awesome.
It's a son of God. You're gonna name him Jesus.
Are we good? Because I have a three fifteen? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yeah, yeah, Ben, you bring up a really interesting point.
I don't think I ever really clocked the implication of consents.
So you're saying that it is depicted as the angel
Gabriel basically saying is this all right? Or was it
more of just I'm just giving you, doing you a
solid and giving you a heads up that this is
coming your way.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it's implied as a great gift, show great favor. Therefore,
implying that there's implying but not explicitly stating that, unlike
a Zeus situation, there was consent. It's weird. We'll get
into Mythris and other contemporary messiahs as well. But here's
(14:30):
the pickle of it. If you go to the Gospel
of Matthew, Gabriel shows up to Joseph and says, bro
I gotta lay some awesome news on you, and he
says the same thing. Unfortunately, though, however the events transpire,
these heavenly gifts do not automatically equate to earthly comfort.
(14:55):
Joseph and Mary are not one percent there by no
means wealthy or wealth to do, despite Joseph being descended
from King David.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I mean, the implication there always seemed to me is
that's sort of like was the intention of of the
Son of God to come from the most humble beginnings
and grow up and live not as some sort of
god among men or worshiped exactly and the way you
might think of other messiah stories, but you know, living
a humble life, you know, among the people.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
And we're obviously we're talking about this from a academic
folkloric perspective. We're we're giving you the stories as they exist,
with then diagrams and differences.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, guys, I'm looking back at Luke with just the
what's written in here about this whole conception thing, and
it is really interesting. It's interesting in Luke because the
only answer that Mary gives as the as the angels
like laying all this pretty heavy, stuffy her is I
am the Lord's servant, like you fill right right, whatever
(16:02):
I can do to help? Well, yeah, exactly, But at
the same time it's I don't.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Know, is that consent though, or is that just like
I will take one for the team because I don't
feel like I have a choice.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
I don't know it. It's sort of pointless to.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, a human resource department in pretty much any company
would take this opportunity to talk about how discrepancy and
power and position.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
It's a little angel telling you this is the best
thing that's ever happened. You're like, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
It sounds ritings like that on a slightly smaller level,
slightly lower stakes. So all right, Joseph and Mary, despite
being favored by God, are having a tough time down
in the dirt and the mud with all the other
Plebeian humans. As the birth of Jesus Christ draws near,
(16:54):
his parents have to travel to Bethlehem. They don't live
in Bethlehem. Hey, Bethlehem is the ancient city of King David.
And according to Luke, there's this census going on, which
means Joseph has to travel back to Bethlehem for this
Roman decreed census. They don't have the best socioeconomic status.
(17:17):
We can only imagine a lot of other people had
to come back to town. So town is crowded, you
know what I mean. It's a dragon con super Bowl situation.
There's not a lot of places to stay. They're very expensive.
So this aspiring couple has to lay their infant in
a manger. And when they do, the just important side note,
(17:40):
the angels don't show up to any innkeeper and say
you gotta let these folks sleep inside. The angels show
up after they get to the barn, and after Mary
gives birth to Jesus in this troth, and then they
announce his birth to a group of shepherds. And I
have to wonder, gentlemen, did any of the shepherds or
(18:01):
the wise men experience something like a third man factor?
That's an interesting you know what I mean, guided by angels.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I mean, that's the thing about all of this, these
kind of stories and the providence of them is like,
you know, is there.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Divine intervention?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
You know?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Is this word of mouth? Is there some sort of
psychosis involved? Like, I just it's a lot of questions.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Yeah, and we just.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It's a tough thing to say because it is about belief.
But this is a story. It was written down, right
by several accounts, but it was written down and it's
lasted a long time, but it has certainly survived a
whole bunch of scrutiny, Yeah, scrutiny, but also iterations, translations.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
So it's just, you know, it's still prime I p
after all these years.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yes, and copyright free.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
That doesn't help, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
It does help a bit. Look, as we said, these
are the bones of the story that informs the Nativity
scenes you see in countless plays, reenactments at your local church,
or dioramas, perhaps in someone's household. But different groups, again
might not always agree on the specifics, and it might
(19:25):
surprise some of us in the audience tonight to learn
the disagreements started early on, pretty much from the jump
the two sources, the two sources that Christianity considers actual
sources on this, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. They
agree on the large strokes, the brushstrokes of the story,
(19:46):
but they disagree on a ton of other details. And this,
I would argue, is the sand that creates the pearl here.
This is the thing that further distorts as time goes
on the fact that these two works from the jump
disagreed on some things, like Joseph is more in the
(20:08):
spotlight in the Gospel of Matthew, and Mary takes a
lot of the spotlight in the Gospel of Luke in Matthew.
As we said, Angel speaks to Joseph Luke, Angel speaks
to Mary. I think it would have made a little
more sense for the Angel to set them both down.
But I wasn't in the writer's room for this one. Well,
it is a writer's room type question.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I was wondering, like to Matthew and Luke, like have
a falling out or something like did they skiz him
and have some sort of like public disagreement.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
And I can find a thing about that.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
But there are other discrepancies between their gospels in terms
of like genealogy and lineage and various things pertaining to
other major players in these kinds of biblical tales.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, so, just really quickly, let's talk about the difference
in those two scenarios. Man and woman in a relationship.
They have not consummated this marriage. I suppose as Mary
is a virgin at least according to both books, and
an angel comes to the man and says, hey, your wife,
(21:14):
who is a virgin is going to give birth to
the Son of God. What is that conversation like then
with Mary? Hey, Mary, guess what got some news for you?
Or and in the opposite direction, Mary says, hey, God
to me. So having a baby, just the human aspect
(21:34):
of it is very interesting to me. In the concept
of how they handled that, I would say, probably very
strange situation. If nothing else right.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That's been extremely diplomatic. Yeah, because you know we we
hear it all the time. What would you do if
you were in a relationship and your partner came to
you and said, hey, I know we haven't slept together,
but there is as a kid on the way, and
I just need you to believe me it's a good thing. Yeah,
(22:05):
And I did not shoot on you yeah, yeah, at all.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's just that guy there, like that old.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Meme from a little while back. It's above me, you know,
I'm just relaying what the uppers are saying. These differences
in genealogy, these differences in timeline and itinerary, vague as
they may be, they seem very small differences at the beginning,
But as will witness, these differences create further differences in
(22:37):
the great game of telephone. And for thousands of years,
despite the immediate discrepancies, people tended to triangulate what they
saw as the true story. They would look at Matthew
and Luke. They would do a Venn diagram. Where do
these guys agree, And let's take the sum of the
stuff these gospels do agree on, and we'll call that
(22:59):
the truth.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's yeah, yeah, I mean, And it's interesting too when
you switch between like new International version of the Bible
and King James and some of the other newer, even
newer versions of the Bible. Yeah, and just how those
small language changes in both of those sections of the
Bible really do, at least in my mind, alter the
(23:22):
meaning just enough. And that thing you're saying like almost
almost like the lens in front of it just tilts
slightly as you read through it.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It's weird.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
One thing that I also found is that Mark apparently
came first of Matthew, Mark and Luke. And it's kind
of understood that that's the case because a lot of
biblical scholars have analyzed all three of them and found
that Luke and Matthew actually take stuff from Mark and
(23:52):
kind of make edits and sort of decide things to
include and remove some of the maybe more out there
bits from Mark and kind of give it their own spin.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
It was a wild mixtape back in the day Fellas
pre Nicea and so on. But the important part for
our purpose is Mark will come in later. Right now,
the only biblical basis for the Nativity are the Gospels
of Matthew and Luke. Mark is not talking about this stuff.
(24:22):
And today, most Christians will celebrate the Birth of Jesus
Christ on December twenty fifth in the Gregorian calendar here
in the United States. A lot of people who don't
consider themselves Christians will still celebrate aspects of Christmas because, frankly,
it's just a fun time. You like parties, you like
(24:44):
cool decorations, you like giving and getting gifts.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, you like pointy red hats with white trim.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Let's go right. You heard about eggnog my guy, So
and there's not necessarily I mean, if you're not hurting anybody,
do as thou wilt. In centuries past, though this was
much more serious. It was considered downright sacrilegious, heretical to
(25:14):
raise too many concerns about these possible discrepancies, or were
certain details of the origin story. How did a person
get from point A to point set right? What was
the cycle of the moon, etcetera, etcetera dangerous questions. In
more recent times, fellow conspiracy realist scholars, historians, theologians, other
(25:35):
experts have been wrestling with this conversation. Anew a lot
of forensic science is going into this. They're asking themselves,
when was Jesus Christ actually born? We can try to
answer it after a word from our sponsors. Here's where
(25:59):
it gets crazy. The first thing we can do to
answer this question is assure you, weirdly enough, it was
almost certainly not December twenty fifth. It was like ninety
nine point eight percent not December twenty fifth.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, it's it certainly seems like a weird time, or
maybe a poor choice of a time to be traveling
around pretty long distances because of the temperature, because of
the temperature, the weather, the time of year, Like, it's
just the nights are extremely long around this time, the
longest of the entire year.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Well yeah, and I mean, and it kind of just
reinforces this whole idea that maybe this isn't really based
on actual calendar reality or historical accuracy, and much more
the product of, like, let's figure out a smart place
to slot this holiday and for other purposes that might
benefit the new people in charge.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right right, Yeah, it's a terrible time to travel, and
there are some intervening variables. We would say, in Catholic
and Protestant traditions, Christmas is December twenty fifth. However, in
other equally Christian traditions, the birthday is totally different. In
Orthodox Christianity, you know, shout out to Russia, Greece, Egypt,
(27:22):
et cetera, Jesus's birth is celebrated on January sixth or
January seventh. But this all did not happen until centuries
and centuries after the fact. Please check out our companion
episode on Ridiculous History. Jesus christ birthday was the latest
(27:42):
birthday ever or something like that. I can't remember what
what do we call it? Latest birthday party? Just sort
of latest birthday party? Yeah, that was it. To check
it out, we know, the first mention of a date
for Christmas is like two hundred CE. If that the
earliest celebrate rations were two fifty the three hundred CE.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
People still don't even agree on when those dates became
common in Christian tradition. And that is because of this.
Neither of these gospels, Matthew nor Luke believe it or not.
Neither of them at any point specifically name a day,
a month, or even a year for the birth. That's weird, eh,
(28:28):
That's like say, hey, I'll always remember, you know, when
my kid was born, and let me tell you a
story about how tough it was to get to the hospital.
And then they say, oh yeah, round, when did that happen?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And you go out of time, no idea.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Quid, oh wow, okay, get him out of here, get
him out. I'm calling conscious you guys. So they don't
do it. Yeah something years yeah, yeah, thirty three they
see so again, the Gospel of Luke is the most specific,
(29:08):
it's the most in depth. That has these references to
historical rulers from the Roman Empire. Luca is the guy
who mentions the census, but they still fail to name specifics.
When the wake of this, people collectively Christians and some
of their enemies have to improvise. They guesstimate, and then
(29:29):
they start arguing what makes the most sense to them.
December twenty fifth, no January sixth, let's split up right.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
The vast majority of Biblical historians usually agree that while
it's fine to celebrate on the twenty fifth of December,
pretty much is a consensus that this was not Jesus's
actual birthday. I also, I don't know, guys, did you
grow up. I mean, maybe when you're younger it's different.
But I've never really fully thought that this was meant
(29:58):
to be Jesus's actual I don't even think they pushed
that narrative in my Methodist church.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
No, that Methodist church here too. It wasn't a big deal.
It was this is this is the time that we
celebrate from the story that the you know, the birth
of the Son of God, and we just.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Do it now. Yeah, Methodist is Methodism is a very
moderate denomination. When you look at the vast span or
Christian thought. Right, there are doubtlessly many other denominations or
sex that feel the date is incredibly important. I will
never forget. Many many years ago, I was in an
(30:41):
argument outside of a church with someone saying that the
King James Bible is the only authoritative Christian work because
it's written in English.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Yeah, it seems to be a little bit of an oversimplification, perhaps, Yeah,
a little codd bias.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It was a weird time. It was far before the
internet and the telephone, those things. So this brings us
to another weird callindrical. I don't want to call it
a conspiracy just yet, but the year one thing in
the Gregorian calendar, it's supposed to be based on the
year that Jesus Christ is born. That is also almost
(31:23):
certainly wrong. And we have to thank a guy we've
been shouting out a lot recently, awesome name bad at
math Dionysus Exegus's a sixth century monk. He's the first
guy to calculate the year of Jesus's birth, and a
lot of people in the modern era, including folks like
Pope Benedict, who's somewhat in an authority on the matter,
(31:45):
that would be Pope Benedict sixteen. I want to say, yeah,
he even agrees that Dionysus, for one reason or another
miscounted when he was doing his ear forensics, and Jesus
Christ was likely born between what we would call seven
BCE and two CE, but definitely not year one that
(32:12):
was that was Dionysus.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Of course, errors like that kind of replicate and compound
over time.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Right M Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Another complication to your point, Noel. The Bible mentions in
several places that Jesus was born when that that real
pos Herod the Great was king of Judea. But if
you go to other scholars, like Flavius Josephus, what a
great name. It was a great name. I had a
(32:42):
you know, I had a gerbil named Flavius, and he
was not as cool as this guy. Uh. Flavius Josephus
was a Roman Jewish historian who lived in the first
century CE. H. He is the guy who says, oh,
King Herod. Yeah, that guy kicked the bucket back in
four BCE.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
And let's not confuse Flavius Josephus with the incredible rapper
Flava Flavius Josephus, Oh.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, find him on band camp.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, he's big. He's also really good on reality shows.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And so according to according to this guy, if we're
putting well, if we're putting faith in Flavius, we have
to then conclude that Jesus was born at least four
years earlier, probably even earlier than that. Then the current
calendar says.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh, that's cool, but yeah, it seems like a stealthy
yeah until you know.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Cut cut two thousands of years later, our pals Dave
Rus and Desiree Bowie point out at our Alma mater
house stuff works that part of the confusion probably comes
from different priorities. So people in the modern world figuring
out the exact date of Jesus' birthday their goals differ
(34:03):
from the goals of whomever wrote the Gospels. This is
where we go to an awesome quote by a guy
named Ian Paul, a theologian, biblical scholar. Actually super impressive, dude.
He's got a website about the stuff called Sefiso.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
Great name for a website and great quote.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
He writes, we have this modern obsession with dates and
chronological order, but the gospel writers were much more interested
in theology than chronology.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That's a big deal. Right, It's not about when it happened.
It's not about that at all. It is that this happened,
and it's important that you know that this happened, dear
reader or hearer of these words.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, it's what happened and why it matters more so
than when.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Right, Yeah, that is I mean, you know, that's interesting
because it does make you think of like, when did
this kind of pedantic focus on chronology become more the
order of the day.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I think it probably happened with the rise of dogma
in organized religion, and then it got galvanized by the
fact that if you need a PhD. You have to
find something very specific to argue about.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Well, yeah, and intense agricultural stuff. Right back in the day,
that was some of the first numbers that were ever
developed in some of the first language were based directly
on agriculture. Because now we've got something immediately in our vicinity.
We got to watch how long it's been in the ground.
We got to watch how much water has been applied.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right, we also have to monitor and ration, yes, the
food available for the population based on their socioeconomic status,
which is why you have meatless practices and you eat
fish on certain yes, And.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
It's why you got to watch out when winter Solstice
is around the corner and you've got the longest night
and you can celebrate. Oh, the sun is coming back now.
The sun can only get higher in the sky from
this point forward for the rest of this year.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
I always got like kind of seasonal depressive situations around
this time when it gets dark so much earlier. But
it's just such a you know, modern problem if you
think about back in the day, those earlier you know, sunsets.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Mattered like in a functional way.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Sure, that's why most people have polyphasic sleep before the
advent of the electric light.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yes, sorry, guys, isn't it weird to you? My world
is so northern hemispheric, yeah, and centric Northern hemisphere or centric.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I like the second one.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, But it's just it I don't think
about on the same day that we celebrate winter Solstice,
like this year, it's the twenty first of December in
the Southern Hemisphere, it is the longest day, the shortest night,
and in the most sun that they're going to be
getting for a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
And the toilets swirl differently. I mean, it's just nuts
down there.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Well, yes, but really it's such an opposite thing. The
separation is is massive in a lot of ways. You know,
from I guess where we are in Georgia versus if
you go you know, to Australia in certain parts down
that way.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
There's something to just the tilt of the Earth causing
that much of a difference. Inexperience on the same planet
is very odd to me.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, because from far enough away that tilt, that little
wobble might seem like a very small thing. Yeah, and
it has Again, this is another metaphor, right, it has
a great consequence to the people on the ground. I also,
clearly we're not denigrating the southern hemisphere at all, but
(37:53):
we are going to tell you something true. The people
who are writing this had no idea.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
No, they may have debatily knew a little more about
astronomy and a little more about the shape of the Earth,
and they're given credit for now, but they did not
know a lot of stuff that was out there. They
were if you said South America, they would be like America,
who is that? I haven't read any of his stuff
(38:23):
and they like because of that. It's sort of like
in the game Civilization, where your map gradually grows larger
as people travel. Unfortunately, now, at this time, the vast
majority of people were living and dying within what we
would call about thirty miles of where they were born.
(38:44):
It was not a lot of people were hopping on
Delta one, you know what I mean? I think maybe
I need to read a different translation.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
But they did have Griffins that they could ride around on,
didn't they Wait, no, they did? That was that was
ryanair mixing mix?
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Yeah, but that's the story. That's the you know, classic
human mix up the story. Treat it like Chipotle, pick
out the bits you want from the buffet. Right. This
might be disappointing to the excellent quote you shared there
and nol. This might be disappointing to think, oh, these
guys are more centered on the rough idea, the theology
(39:22):
than the chronology. But it makes a lot of sense.
Because Matthew and Luke were written a long long time ago.
It is theoretically possible that had they tried to nail
down a specific year and date, it would sound confusing
or nonsensical. To modern readers today. You know what I mean,
if they were like on the night of the one
(39:46):
past the third, beneath the atom, whatever that means, you know,
like you would be baffled. You would say, just give
me some easy you know, give me a month, I know,
give me a day, I know. And that that's why
investigators have tried for so long, emphasis untried. They have
(40:06):
tried to figure this out. They've delved into context clues
and done some calindrical forensics. So mentions of King Herod,
that's a clue. And then there's John the Baptist. We
don't know a ton about Jesus Christ as a kid, right,
we don't. We don't know what kind of dope stuff
he was up to when he was six years old.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
But we literally don't know why anything, right at least,
there are no accepted there's no accepted scholarship of after
Jesus is born until Jesus shows back up much much.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, there's like some apocrypha maybe you would call it,
but it's it's still sort of hedge folklore and not
acknowledged by ecclesiastical authorities. So if we go to this
is where Mark comes back in. Mark tells us a
little bit of Jesus as a young man, as up
and comer, you know what I mean. He goes to
(40:59):
John the Baptist to be surprised baptized, and then he
becomes after meeting John, he becomes an itinerant, preacher and
a healer. This is in like Mark one two to
twenty eight fast.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Where does carpentry come into it? Because he is a
carpenter right when he shows back up.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Well, he would have, I guess picked up his father's trade.
You know, maybe he grew up as an apprentice in that.
Maybe that's some of the stuff that happened when he
and the those sort of undiscussed years, if he was
spending time with old Joseph.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Yeah, that makes sense logically, right, That's that's kind of
the rule of the day for a skilled crafts person.
You grow up in the family business, which means you
get access to expertise, mentorship, and physically you get access
to tools stuff exactly. Yeah, you get the toys. So
we know that he had what is described by Britannica
(41:53):
as a short public career in his mid thirties and
as we know or not your Christian you probably know
this part he didn't make it out of his thirties.
He got a lot of attention during this little less
than a year when he was rocking the casmo of
(42:13):
expected socioeconomic order. Sometime between twenty nine and thirty three CE,
he went to observe passover in Jerusalem. And before we
get to John and the Baptist, maybe we put on
our folklore hats again and talk a little bit about,
you know, the Fraser Campbell stuff of the hero's journey
(42:34):
and the hero's story and how they bookend naturally.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
My folklore hat has a feather in it. I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
That's very Macaroni. Thank you Macaroni.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yeah, say you call me a fancy lad man.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
And hold the phone stop at the manger. There is
much more to this story. We cannot wait to dive in.
Please please please check out part two of When was
Jesus Actually Born? And publishing later this week. In the meantime,
thank you so much for tuning in, fellow conspiracy realist.
(43:13):
We can't wait to hear from you. We try to
be easy to find on email, telephonic devices, and the
ons of the lines.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Yeah, you can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff,
where we exist at all those places on the internet,
whichever one you choose, you can find this at that handle.
On Facebook, we have our Facebook group here's where it
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Speaker 2 (43:42):
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Speaker 5 (44:04):
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Speaker 3 (44:06):
Every piece of correspondence we receive. Send us the photos,
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my
name is no they call me Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We're joined as always with our super producer Andrew Treyforce Howard.
Most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. We're recording on December sixteenth.
There are just fifteen days to the new year. As
the Gregorian calendar, which is kind of an up and
(00:50):
coming trend, reckons the passage of time. Guys, can you
believe it? There's always been a time or reflection. But
like looking back on this gear, I think we've had
some ups and downs, but hopefully we've had more ups
than downs.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
As a people, as a as a country, as individuals,
all three, perhaps all the above. Ben, I gotta say
that you're bearing the lead a little bit. You typically
put a lovely quote at the top of these outlines,
and you got a banger of one up top today.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
I'm gonna have to insist that you read. I'm gonna
have to insist that you read it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
That's too kind. All right, Well, with your permission, fellow
conspiracy realist, you won't be one of those bastards who
says Christmas is what's year and it's a fraud. It's not.
It can happen every day. You've just gotta want that feeling.
And if you like it and you want it, you'll
get greedy for it. You'll want it every day of
your life, and it can happen to you. I believe
(01:46):
in it now. I believe it's gonna happen to me.
Now I'm ready for it.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Turkey's for everyone.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
This is, of course, from the Seminole holiday classic film Scrooged.
I watched this for the first time in many years
last Christmas, and I also gave you my heart, and
I gotta say, guys, I think it's a bit of
a metaphor for late stage capitalism being great.
Speaker 6 (02:12):
Even this quote that you just read, it's like, let's
be greedy for Christmas and love and joy and good.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
It just is all about how you frame it.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I pulled the one part of the monologue that speaks
coherently because I feel a lot of it was improvised
by our buddy Murray. Uh, and a lot of it
is him sounding like a Wall Street capitalist mid No.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Yeah, and even what you put in here, it's got
that feeling for sure.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
But did you guys get that vibe about the film that,
like the thesis at the end, is very much giving.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
A pass to the stage capitalist. Remember I say what
no way, I mean, I just wanted to be explicit
about it. It's just, yeah, have you seen that scrooged
of late?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I have.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I it's it's well of late. Yes, it's been a minute,
but I.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Have seen screw.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I'm not saying it's not a banger of a fun movie,
but Fodcat gold Tway.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a better I don't know
that whole like, let's be greedy for Christmas to me
is better than you know, delay and I defend too whatever.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
The true Father Christmas, I'm just saying I'm down.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm more down, I think with let's just give everything
away rather than let's take take take tic take.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We're also going to find too. One of the one
of the things that Frank Cross gets to and Scrooge
towards the very end is this idea that perhaps the
specific date of Christmas doesn't matter as much as merchandising
would like you to believe.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
The way merchandising makes you feel, not the feeling so
you can be a.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Good person on a Tuesday.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I am so sorry, guys. Last thing on Scrooge does
in the world of Scrooge? Does a Christmas Carol by
Charles Dickens exist? Do they discuss it as a piece
of intellectual property existing in the world of that film?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, because you know, the whole thing is a show
within a show.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Right, of course they do the show and they're doing
a Christmas Carol, but of course everything aligns to the
actual ghosts that visit Ebenezer Scrooge, just.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Staple the antlers on. Would you call that, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Would you call that religious syncretism?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Ben?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I would. But I'm maybe not the best example, Noel,
because I have long argued that capitalism and our current
concept of economy is indeed a religion, and I've lost
the probably the most popular one in the world currently.
And look, you know, we're we're checking back right in
this historical time of introspection. What has passed? What is passing?
(04:56):
What has yet to come. Human society is always celebrated
around this time, partially because a lot of people died
when they ran out of food and it was like
really really cold. Yes, yeah, and through a great game
of telephone. Right now around this time of years, the
Gregorian calendar measures it. Christmas is one of the most
(05:19):
popular holidays on the planet. It's so popular that whether
or not you celebrate, whether or not you consider yourself Christian,
unless you live on North Sentinel Island, you have probably
heard of Christmas. It commemorates one of the most famous
birthdays in all of history, a guy named Jesus of Nazareth, who,
(05:40):
according to adherents of Christianity, is believed to be the Messiah.
But our question here is what if we don't know
the full story? When was Jesus Christ actually born.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Let's dive in to this historical mystery after we get
our Q four numbers in order we'll be repick.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Here are the facts, all right, This is doubtlessly familiar
to many of us in the audience tonight, unless you're
part of the growing demographic of folks on North Sentinel
Islands who love stuff They don't want you to know
seven by my current counts, I'm manifesting it, you guys.
So they're like, I think we all have on this show.
(06:38):
We've encountered Christianity in some capacity, whether or not we
consider ourselves specifically Christian. You know, many of us listening
along tonight do in one capacity to one degree or another.
So it's no secret that varying denominations or sex of
Christianity agree on the large points of the story of
(07:02):
Jesus Christ right, especially the death and in the beginning.
But they disagree on doctrine, and they disagree on some
of the specifics surrounding the narrative of Jesus Christ's birthday
or the first one, the Nativity. So maybe we stick
with the high level basic stuff for now. We don't
want to stir the pot too much. This is what
(07:24):
all Christianity largely agrees upon, and he comes from only
two sources, the Gospels of Matthew, not our matt a
different one and Luke.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, that is correct. And you have heard this story.
You've likely seen it in a manger scene driving by
a church. It is depicted symbolically there like very literally
symbolically in those major scenes. By the way, guys. As
a young and I've said this before on the show,
as a little tiny baby, I did play baby Jesus
(07:58):
in a manger. Christian parents, you are such a Snookham's Yeah,
But the story that we know is that Jesus Christ
was born in a manger on and it is often
said and celebrated on the twenty fifth.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Of December in the Gregorian calendar exactly. So that's the
other thing, right, Yeah, Jesus is born in a manger.
For any etymology fans, a lot of people might assume
a manger is a barn. The manger is the troth
where animals feed, which is by the barn where you
(08:34):
keep the livestock. And this manger, this barn situation is
in a town called Bethlehem. The child is born to
two parents, an itinerant carpenter named Joseph and his wife Mary.
Joseph is somehow descended from King David. There are a
(08:54):
couple of unique factors involved in this birth. It's not
the first barn birth and history by any means, but
Joseph is Jesus's earthly father figure. Jesus himself is the
result of what's called immaculate conception, meaning that Mary was
(09:14):
essentially impregnated by divine forces usually called the Holy Spirit
and a lot of translations, making him the literal son
of God. And you can see this in stuff like
Matthew one eighteen Luke one thirty five. That's one of
the points they agree on. You should be familiar with
the Nativity scenes. I remember having to act in several
(09:37):
of those. It's always fun, you know what I mean,
Because often churches will have a bunch of the kids
or the youth group do the Nativity play, and I
still like watching them, you know what I mean. I
don't think it'd be fair for me to be in
one now because I'd be taking a role from a child,
(09:58):
But but I do think it's always a good show.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
I think I was a shepherd of some stripe at
some point, wearing a big fake beard as a child,
which is always delightful to behold.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I've played, this is true everyone at some Nativity play.
I've played everyone except for Mary Ah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That is so awesome. Still time then we three Kings
of Oriental, so I did that when I had again
when I was based. I love it, guys. Let's just
point out the tradition here of God's impregnating mortals.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's a very It's not in originals.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Oh no, it's all over Greek mythology.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, especially Zeus.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Zeus really and the Swan and all that.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, yeah, but Zeus was stealthy chicks left and right.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Much, I know. But it is just an interesting concept here, right,
I mean this, this first idea that we encounter is
it is magical in a lot of different ways. Right,
some force impregnated a woman that had nothing to do
with the ways that we are aware humans can conceive.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
In an important distinction. And I love this because this
feels like an allusion to the work of Joseph Campbell
or Fraser's The Golden beow This, which are great reads
if you're into folklore seminal works. What I would say
differentiates this origin story from other stories of what would
(11:31):
be called demi gods outside of Christianity is that it
is heavily implied. This is consensual. That is not the
case in a lot of other stories, which by the way,
are one to one beat for beat story wise, what
you would call alien abductions today.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, I reference the Leah and the Swan story.
I had to google to make sure I wasn't just
making that up, but it was.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, let's gree when Zeus came down from Olympus and
seduced and impregnated Lead a Spartan queen.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
In the form of a swan. I want to know
how they worked.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Seduced is doing a lot of heavy lifting in translation
there there might be an R word involved, not sound well, there's.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
A lot of wing flapping.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I can imagine swan.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Dudes don't have one.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Swans don't have penises, though they have like a don't
they have like a kloaca situation or like it's they
don't have penis. Yeah, so how could you impregnate a
human woman in the form of a swan. There's a
lot of I'm sorry, I'm like getting hung up on
the magical pallas, which.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Is their equivalent of a penis that goes into the kloake.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I see, but they're not all corkscrewy like the ducks,
right or they because.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Ducks are, or at least Zeus swans.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, yeah, ducks very much are this So going back
to this guy Jesus, he was or is if you like,
depending on your your personal beliefs Galilean from Nazareth, and
Nazareth is this valley, which is near one of the
two big cities in Galilee. Sophorists during this time, during
(13:12):
the time that Joseph and Mary are figuring this stuff
out and expecting this kid, there's a real pos, a
real pill, an absolute heel named King Herod, who controls
the area, controls Judea, and the Gospel of Luke tells
us that God sent an angel, a pretty famous angel Gabriel,
(13:33):
to Earth, and according to Luke, the angel goes to
Mary and says, look, you're gonna advocate e'xci me. Awesome.
It's a son of God. You're gonna name him Jesus.
Are we good? Because I have a three fifteen? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yeah, yeah, Ben, you bring up a really interesting point.
I don't think I ever really clocked the implication of consents.
So you're saying that it is depicted as the angel
Gabriel basically saying is this all right? Or was it
more of just I'm just giving you, doing you a
solid and giving you a heads up that this is
coming your way.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it's implied as a great gift, show great favor. Therefore,
implying that there's implying but not explicitly stating that, unlike
a Zeus situation, there was consent. It's weird. We'll get
into Mythris and other contemporary messiahs as well. But here's
(14:30):
the pickle of it. If you go to the Gospel
of Matthew, Gabriel shows up to Joseph and says, bro
I gotta lay some awesome news on you, and he
says the same thing. Unfortunately, though, however the events transpire,
these heavenly gifts do not automatically equate to earthly comfort.
(14:55):
Joseph and Mary are not one percent there by no
means wealthy or wealth to do, despite Joseph being descended
from King David.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I mean, the implication there always seemed to me is
that's sort of like was the intention of of the
Son of God to come from the most humble beginnings
and grow up and live not as some sort of
god among men or worshiped exactly and the way you
might think of other messiah stories, but you know, living
a humble life, you know, among the people.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
And we're obviously we're talking about this from a academic
folkloric perspective. We're we're giving you the stories as they exist,
with then diagrams and differences.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, guys, I'm looking back at Luke with just the
what's written in here about this whole conception thing, and
it is really interesting. It's interesting in Luke because the
only answer that Mary gives as the as the angels
like laying all this pretty heavy, stuffy her is I
am the Lord's servant, like you fill right right, whatever
(16:02):
I can do to help? Well, yeah, exactly, But at
the same time it's I don't.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Know, is that consent though, or is that just like
I will take one for the team because I don't
feel like I have a choice.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
I don't know it. It's sort of pointless to.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, a human resource department in pretty much any company
would take this opportunity to talk about how discrepancy and
power and position.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
It's a little angel telling you this is the best
thing that's ever happened. You're like, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
It sounds ritings like that on a slightly smaller level,
slightly lower stakes. So all right, Joseph and Mary, despite
being favored by God, are having a tough time down
in the dirt and the mud with all the other
Plebeian humans. As the birth of Jesus Christ draws near,
(16:54):
his parents have to travel to Bethlehem. They don't live
in Bethlehem. Hey, Bethlehem is the ancient city of King David.
And according to Luke, there's this census going on, which
means Joseph has to travel back to Bethlehem for this
Roman decreed census. They don't have the best socioeconomic status.
(17:17):
We can only imagine a lot of other people had
to come back to town. So town is crowded, you
know what I mean. It's a dragon con super Bowl situation.
There's not a lot of places to stay. They're very expensive.
So this aspiring couple has to lay their infant in
a manger. And when they do, the just important side note,
(17:40):
the angels don't show up to any innkeeper and say
you gotta let these folks sleep inside. The angels show
up after they get to the barn, and after Mary
gives birth to Jesus in this troth, and then they
announce his birth to a group of shepherds. And I
have to wonder, gentlemen, did any of the shepherds or
(18:01):
the wise men experience something like a third man factor?
That's an interesting you know what I mean, guided by angels.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I mean, that's the thing about all of this, these
kind of stories and the providence of them is like,
you know, is there.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Divine intervention?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
You know?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Is this word of mouth? Is there some sort of
psychosis involved? Like, I just it's a lot of questions.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Yeah, and we just.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It's a tough thing to say because it is about belief.
But this is a story. It was written down, right
by several accounts, but it was written down and it's
lasted a long time, but it has certainly survived a
whole bunch of scrutiny, Yeah, scrutiny, but also iterations, translations.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
So it's just, you know, it's still prime I p
after all these years.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yes, and copyright free.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
That doesn't help, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
It does help a bit. Look, as we said, these
are the bones of the story that informs the Nativity
scenes you see in countless plays, reenactments at your local church,
or dioramas, perhaps in someone's household. But different groups, again
might not always agree on the specifics, and it might
(19:25):
surprise some of us in the audience tonight to learn
the disagreements started early on, pretty much from the jump
the two sources, the two sources that Christianity considers actual
sources on this, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. They
agree on the large strokes, the brushstrokes of the story,
(19:46):
but they disagree on a ton of other details. And this,
I would argue, is the sand that creates the pearl here.
This is the thing that further distorts as time goes
on the fact that these two works from the jump
disagreed on some things, like Joseph is more in the
(20:08):
spotlight in the Gospel of Matthew, and Mary takes a
lot of the spotlight in the Gospel of Luke in Matthew.
As we said, Angel speaks to Joseph Luke, Angel speaks
to Mary. I think it would have made a little
more sense for the Angel to set them both down.
But I wasn't in the writer's room for this one. Well,
it is a writer's room type question.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I was wondering, like to Matthew and Luke, like have
a falling out or something like did they skiz him
and have some sort of like public disagreement.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
And I can find a thing about that.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
But there are other discrepancies between their gospels in terms
of like genealogy and lineage and various things pertaining to
other major players in these kinds of biblical tales.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Well, so, just really quickly, let's talk about the difference
in those two scenarios. Man and woman in a relationship.
They have not consummated this marriage. I suppose as Mary
is a virgin at least according to both books, and
an angel comes to the man and says, hey, your wife,
(21:14):
who is a virgin is going to give birth to
the Son of God. What is that conversation like then
with Mary? Hey, Mary, guess what got some news for you?
Or and in the opposite direction, Mary says, hey, God
to me. So having a baby, just the human aspect
(21:34):
of it is very interesting to me. In the concept
of how they handled that, I would say, probably very
strange situation. If nothing else right.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That's been extremely diplomatic. Yeah, because you know we we
hear it all the time. What would you do if
you were in a relationship and your partner came to
you and said, hey, I know we haven't slept together,
but there is as a kid on the way, and
I just need you to believe me it's a good thing. Yeah,
(22:05):
And I did not shoot on you yeah, yeah, at all.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's just that guy there, like that old.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Meme from a little while back. It's above me, you know,
I'm just relaying what the uppers are saying. These differences
in genealogy, these differences in timeline and itinerary, vague as
they may be, they seem very small differences at the beginning,
But as will witness, these differences create further differences in
(22:37):
the great game of telephone. And for thousands of years,
despite the immediate discrepancies, people tended to triangulate what they
saw as the true story. They would look at Matthew
and Luke. They would do a Venn diagram. Where do
these guys agree, And let's take the sum of the
stuff these gospels do agree on, and we'll call that
(22:59):
the truth.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's yeah, yeah, I mean, And it's interesting too when
you switch between like new International version of the Bible
and King James and some of the other newer, even
newer versions of the Bible. Yeah, and just how those
small language changes in both of those sections of the
Bible really do, at least in my mind, alter the
(23:22):
meaning just enough. And that thing you're saying like almost
almost like the lens in front of it just tilts
slightly as you read through it.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It's weird.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
One thing that I also found is that Mark apparently
came first of Matthew, Mark and Luke. And it's kind
of understood that that's the case because a lot of
biblical scholars have analyzed all three of them and found
that Luke and Matthew actually take stuff from Mark and
(23:52):
kind of make edits and sort of decide things to
include and remove some of the maybe more out there
bits from Mark and kind of give it their own spin.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
It was a wild mixtape back in the day Fellas
pre Nicea and so on. But the important part for
our purpose is Mark will come in later. Right now,
the only biblical basis for the Nativity are the Gospels
of Matthew and Luke. Mark is not talking about this stuff.
(24:22):
And today, most Christians will celebrate the Birth of Jesus
Christ on December twenty fifth in the Gregorian calendar here
in the United States. A lot of people who don't
consider themselves Christians will still celebrate aspects of Christmas because, frankly,
it's just a fun time. You like parties, you like
(24:44):
cool decorations, you like giving and getting gifts.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, you like pointy red hats with white trim.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Let's go right. You heard about eggnog my guy, So
and there's not necessarily I mean, if you're not hurting anybody,
do as thou wilt. In centuries past, though this was
much more serious. It was considered downright sacrilegious, heretical to
(25:14):
raise too many concerns about these possible discrepancies, or were
certain details of the origin story. How did a person
get from point A to point set right? What was
the cycle of the moon, etcetera, etcetera dangerous questions. In
more recent times, fellow conspiracy realist scholars, historians, theologians, other
(25:35):
experts have been wrestling with this conversation. Anew a lot
of forensic science is going into this. They're asking themselves,
when was Jesus Christ actually born? We can try to
answer it after a word from our sponsors. Here's where
(25:59):
it gets crazy. The first thing we can do to
answer this question is assure you, weirdly enough, it was
almost certainly not December twenty fifth. It was like ninety
nine point eight percent not December twenty fifth.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, it's it certainly seems like a weird time, or
maybe a poor choice of a time to be traveling
around pretty long distances because of the temperature, because of
the temperature, the weather, the time of year, Like, it's
just the nights are extremely long around this time, the
longest of the entire year.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Well yeah, and I mean, and it kind of just
reinforces this whole idea that maybe this isn't really based
on actual calendar reality or historical accuracy, and much more
the product of, like, let's figure out a smart place
to slot this holiday and for other purposes that might
benefit the new people in charge.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right right, Yeah, it's a terrible time to travel, and
there are some intervening variables. We would say, in Catholic
and Protestant traditions, Christmas is December twenty fifth. However, in
other equally Christian traditions, the birthday is totally different. In
Orthodox Christianity, you know, shout out to Russia, Greece, Egypt,
(27:22):
et cetera, Jesus's birth is celebrated on January sixth or
January seventh. But this all did not happen until centuries
and centuries after the fact. Please check out our companion
episode on Ridiculous History. Jesus christ birthday was the latest
(27:42):
birthday ever or something like that. I can't remember what
what do we call it? Latest birthday party? Just sort
of latest birthday party? Yeah, that was it. To check
it out, we know, the first mention of a date
for Christmas is like two hundred CE. If that the
earliest celebrate rations were two fifty the three hundred CE.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
People still don't even agree on when those dates became
common in Christian tradition. And that is because of this.
Neither of these gospels, Matthew nor Luke believe it or not.
Neither of them at any point specifically name a day,
a month, or even a year for the birth. That's weird, eh,
(28:28):
That's like say, hey, I'll always remember, you know, when
my kid was born, and let me tell you a
story about how tough it was to get to the hospital.
And then they say, oh yeah, round, when did that happen?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And you go out of time, no idea.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Quid, oh wow, okay, get him out of here, get
him out. I'm calling conscious you guys. So they don't
do it. Yeah something years yeah, yeah, thirty three they
see so again, the Gospel of Luke is the most specific,
(29:08):
it's the most in depth. That has these references to
historical rulers from the Roman Empire. Luca is the guy
who mentions the census, but they still fail to name specifics.
When the wake of this, people collectively Christians and some
of their enemies have to improvise. They guesstimate, and then
(29:29):
they start arguing what makes the most sense to them.
December twenty fifth, no January sixth, let's split up right.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
The vast majority of Biblical historians usually agree that while
it's fine to celebrate on the twenty fifth of December,
pretty much is a consensus that this was not Jesus's
actual birthday. I also, I don't know, guys, did you
grow up. I mean, maybe when you're younger it's different.
But I've never really fully thought that this was meant
(29:58):
to be Jesus's actual I don't even think they pushed
that narrative in my Methodist church.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
No, that Methodist church here too. It wasn't a big deal.
It was this is this is the time that we
celebrate from the story that the you know, the birth
of the Son of God, and we just.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Do it now. Yeah, Methodist is Methodism is a very
moderate denomination. When you look at the vast span or
Christian thought. Right, there are doubtlessly many other denominations or
sex that feel the date is incredibly important. I will
never forget. Many many years ago, I was in an
(30:41):
argument outside of a church with someone saying that the
King James Bible is the only authoritative Christian work because
it's written in English.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Yeah, it seems to be a little bit of an oversimplification, perhaps, Yeah,
a little codd bias.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It was a weird time. It was far before the
internet and the telephone, those things. So this brings us
to another weird callindrical. I don't want to call it
a conspiracy just yet, but the year one thing in
the Gregorian calendar, it's supposed to be based on the
year that Jesus Christ is born. That is also almost
(31:23):
certainly wrong. And we have to thank a guy we've
been shouting out a lot recently, awesome name bad at
math Dionysus Exegus's a sixth century monk. He's the first
guy to calculate the year of Jesus's birth, and a
lot of people in the modern era, including folks like
Pope Benedict, who's somewhat in an authority on the matter,
(31:45):
that would be Pope Benedict sixteen. I want to say, yeah,
he even agrees that Dionysus, for one reason or another
miscounted when he was doing his ear forensics, and Jesus
Christ was likely born between what we would call seven
BCE and two CE, but definitely not year one that
(32:12):
was that was Dionysus.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Of course, errors like that kind of replicate and compound
over time.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Right M Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Another complication to your point, Noel. The Bible mentions in
several places that Jesus was born when that that real
pos Herod the Great was king of Judea. But if
you go to other scholars, like Flavius Josephus, what a
great name. It was a great name. I had a
(32:42):
you know, I had a gerbil named Flavius, and he
was not as cool as this guy. Uh. Flavius Josephus
was a Roman Jewish historian who lived in the first
century CE. H. He is the guy who says, oh,
King Herod. Yeah, that guy kicked the bucket back in
four BCE.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
And let's not confuse Flavius Josephus with the incredible rapper
Flava Flavius Josephus, Oh.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, find him on band camp.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, he's big. He's also really good on reality shows.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And so according to according to this guy, if we're
putting well, if we're putting faith in Flavius, we have
to then conclude that Jesus was born at least four
years earlier, probably even earlier than that. Then the current
calendar says.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh, that's cool, but yeah, it seems like a stealthy
yeah until you know.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Cut cut two thousands of years later, our pals Dave
Rus and Desiree Bowie point out at our Alma mater
house stuff works that part of the confusion probably comes
from different priorities. So people in the modern world figuring
out the exact date of Jesus' birthday their goals differ
(34:03):
from the goals of whomever wrote the Gospels. This is
where we go to an awesome quote by a guy
named Ian Paul, a theologian, biblical scholar. Actually super impressive, dude.
He's got a website about the stuff called Sefiso.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
Great name for a website and great quote.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
He writes, we have this modern obsession with dates and
chronological order, but the gospel writers were much more interested
in theology than chronology.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That's a big deal. Right, It's not about when it happened.
It's not about that at all. It is that this happened,
and it's important that you know that this happened, dear
reader or hearer of these words.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, it's what happened and why it matters more so
than when.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Right, Yeah, that is I mean, you know, that's interesting
because it does make you think of like, when did
this kind of pedantic focus on chronology become more the
order of the day.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I think it probably happened with the rise of dogma
in organized religion, and then it got galvanized by the
fact that if you need a PhD. You have to
find something very specific to argue about.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Well, yeah, and intense agricultural stuff. Right back in the day,
that was some of the first numbers that were ever
developed in some of the first language were based directly
on agriculture. Because now we've got something immediately in our vicinity.
We got to watch how long it's been in the ground.
We got to watch how much water has been applied.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right, we also have to monitor and ration, yes, the
food available for the population based on their socioeconomic status,
which is why you have meatless practices and you eat
fish on certain yes, And.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
It's why you got to watch out when winter Solstice
is around the corner and you've got the longest night
and you can celebrate. Oh, the sun is coming back now.
The sun can only get higher in the sky from
this point forward for the rest of this year.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
I always got like kind of seasonal depressive situations around
this time when it gets dark so much earlier. But
it's just such a you know, modern problem if you
think about back in the day, those earlier you know, sunsets.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Mattered like in a functional way.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Sure, that's why most people have polyphasic sleep before the
advent of the electric light.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yes, sorry, guys, isn't it weird to you? My world
is so northern hemispheric, yeah, and centric Northern hemisphere or centric.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I like the second one.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, But it's just it I don't think
about on the same day that we celebrate winter Solstice,
like this year, it's the twenty first of December in
the Southern Hemisphere, it is the longest day, the shortest night,
and in the most sun that they're going to be
getting for a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
And the toilets swirl differently. I mean, it's just nuts
down there.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Well, yes, but really it's such an opposite thing. The
separation is is massive in a lot of ways. You know,
from I guess where we are in Georgia versus if
you go you know, to Australia in certain parts down
that way.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
There's something to just the tilt of the Earth causing
that much of a difference. Inexperience on the same planet
is very odd to me.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, because from far enough away that tilt, that little
wobble might seem like a very small thing. Yeah, and
it has Again, this is another metaphor, right, it has
a great consequence to the people on the ground. I also,
clearly we're not denigrating the southern hemisphere at all, but
(37:53):
we are going to tell you something true. The people
who are writing this had no idea.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
No, they may have debatily knew a little more about
astronomy and a little more about the shape of the Earth,
and they're given credit for now, but they did not
know a lot of stuff that was out there. They
were if you said South America, they would be like America,
who is that? I haven't read any of his stuff
(38:23):
and they like because of that. It's sort of like
in the game Civilization, where your map gradually grows larger
as people travel. Unfortunately, now, at this time, the vast
majority of people were living and dying within what we
would call about thirty miles of where they were born.
(38:44):
It was not a lot of people were hopping on
Delta one, you know what I mean? I think maybe
I need to read a different translation.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
But they did have Griffins that they could ride around on,
didn't they Wait, no, they did? That was that was
ryanair mixing mix?
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Yeah, but that's the story. That's the you know, classic
human mix up the story. Treat it like Chipotle, pick
out the bits you want from the buffet. Right. This
might be disappointing to the excellent quote you shared there
and nol. This might be disappointing to think, oh, these
guys are more centered on the rough idea, the theology
(39:22):
than the chronology. But it makes a lot of sense.
Because Matthew and Luke were written a long long time ago.
It is theoretically possible that had they tried to nail
down a specific year and date, it would sound confusing
or nonsensical. To modern readers today. You know what I mean,
if they were like on the night of the one
(39:46):
past the third, beneath the atom, whatever that means, you know,
like you would be baffled. You would say, just give
me some easy you know, give me a month, I know,
give me a day, I know. And that that's why
investigators have tried for so long, emphasis untried. They have
(40:06):
tried to figure this out. They've delved into context clues
and done some calindrical forensics. So mentions of King Herod,
that's a clue. And then there's John the Baptist. We
don't know a ton about Jesus Christ as a kid, right,
we don't. We don't know what kind of dope stuff
he was up to when he was six years old.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
But we literally don't know why anything, right at least,
there are no accepted there's no accepted scholarship of after
Jesus is born until Jesus shows back up much much.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, there's like some apocrypha maybe you would call it,
but it's it's still sort of hedge folklore and not
acknowledged by ecclesiastical authorities. So if we go to this
is where Mark comes back in. Mark tells us a
little bit of Jesus as a young man, as up
and comer, you know what I mean. He goes to
(40:59):
John the Baptist to be surprised baptized, and then he
becomes after meeting John, he becomes an itinerant, preacher and
a healer. This is in like Mark one two to
twenty eight fast.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Where does carpentry come into it? Because he is a
carpenter right when he shows back up.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Well, he would have, I guess picked up his father's trade.
You know, maybe he grew up as an apprentice in that.
Maybe that's some of the stuff that happened when he
and the those sort of undiscussed years, if he was
spending time with old Joseph.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Yeah, that makes sense logically, right, That's that's kind of
the rule of the day for a skilled crafts person.
You grow up in the family business, which means you
get access to expertise, mentorship, and physically you get access
to tools stuff exactly. Yeah, you get the toys. So
we know that he had what is described by Britannica
(41:53):
as a short public career in his mid thirties and
as we know or not your Christian you probably know
this part he didn't make it out of his thirties.
He got a lot of attention during this little less
than a year when he was rocking the casmo of
(42:13):
expected socioeconomic order. Sometime between twenty nine and thirty three CE,
he went to observe passover in Jerusalem. And before we
get to John and the Baptist, maybe we put on
our folklore hats again and talk a little bit about,
you know, the Fraser Campbell stuff of the hero's journey
(42:34):
and the hero's story and how they bookend naturally.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
My folklore hat has a feather in it. I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
That's very Macaroni. Thank you Macaroni.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yeah, say you call me a fancy lad man.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
And hold the phone stop at the manger. There is
much more to this story. We cannot wait to dive in.
Please please please check out part two of When was
Jesus Actually Born? And publishing later this week. In the meantime,
thank you so much for tuning in, fellow conspiracy realist.
(43:13):
We can't wait to hear from you. We try to
be easy to find on email, telephonic devices, and the
ons of the lines.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Yeah, you can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff,
where we exist at all those places on the internet,
whichever one you choose, you can find this at that handle.
On Facebook, we have our Facebook group here's where it
gets crazy. On YouTube, we have video content galore for
you to enjoy. And on x FKA, Twitter, on Instagram
and TikTok. However, we're conspiracy stuff show use.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Your voice, give us a call one eight three three
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once that beat happens. Don't feel the pressure. It's fine.
Just say whatever you want, but do say a nickname
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to use your voice and message on the air. If
you can more to say than can fit in that message,
why not instead send us an email.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
We are the entities that read.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Every piece of correspondence we receive. Send us the photos,
send us the links. We can all see it. We
all right back. Be well aware, yet unafraid. You might
just join us here in the dark double Dare you conspiracy?
At iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
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