All About Eve with Sara June

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start
changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,
fasten your seatbelt. It's gonna be a bumpy podcast. Honey.

(00:27):
Now that's the level of writing that gets you nominated
for an oscar. Wow. I wasn't expecting that, Jamie. You
didn't see the twist coming, did you? You thought I
was gonna say ride. I know it didn't night, No night.
You thought I was gonna say night. Oh, it is
a bumpy night because she's she's just saying like I'm
going to get so fucked up and ruin everyone's night.
And she's right. I've never heard someone promise that in

(00:48):
advance and quite the same like it's it's oh, it's gorgeous, iconic.
She's an icon. So welcome to the beck Dodcast. This
is our movie podcast, where we in a lies the
representation of women in movies, using the Bechtel test as
a jumping off point. And that, of course, is a
media metric created by cartoonist Ellison Bechtel sometimes called the

(01:10):
Bechtel Wallace test, and it requires that two female identifying
characters who have names they have to speak to each other,
and that conversation has to be about something other than
a man. For instance, ruining each other's lives is a

(01:30):
topic that passes handily. I'm so excited to be covering
this movie today. We do not very frequently cover movies
of this era, but it is a pretty common request
as far as older movies go. It's one of my faves.
I'm we're covering All About Eve today. We are, and
we have a special guest where again we're still in
the quarantine, but we're all videoing in from different locations.

(01:55):
I don't remember life before this anymore. Who does um?
But we're very excited for our guest today. She is
an amazing comedian and director. It's Sara June. Hello, Wow,
thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's our pleasure.
It is tough to be on zoom, but thank you
so much for continuing to do this podcast. Oh you know,

(02:19):
what else are we going to do right now? What
is your history in relationship with the movie All About Eve?
I probably first watched All About Eve when I was
in high school and I was in this phase where
I found out you could get DVDs from the library, um,
and my library had a great, great DVD selection. So

(02:39):
I watched a lot of movies that were really good
that I did not understand because I was a child.
And then I watched some movies that were really good
that I did understand even though I was a child.
And one of those movies it was all about Eve. Baby,
this is like a good movie to first see when
you're a teenager. I feel like it hits like and
it probably I would guess like hits different at different

(03:01):
stages of life too. So it also informed like everything
I thought I knew about the theater. I was like,
the theater is crazy, sexy, dangerous, British, right, and they
hate television. I like, I I think that, like, I mean,
you're always supposed to think that Eve is like pure evil.
But my first viewing of this, I do remember being like,

(03:22):
even he's got a good head on her shoulders, she's
I mean, it's like I I always love Margo to
death forever, but I didn't have as much um empathy
for her the first time as I do ten years on.
I am now closer to Margot's age than Eve's age,
so I'm like Eve, that slimy little rat. I'm Margot

(03:47):
is single white female. There it's it's yeah, yeah. This
movie came out both before Single White Female and before
Mean Girls, So if you need modern references, those are them.
It and the Favorite. I think the Favorite is like
I have I have some One of the writers of
The Favorite was like, yeah, this is like a lot.

(04:08):
There's a lot of All about even then. I remember
I read that interview where they were like, it's like
if all about Eve was um, and then there was.
It was also based on like a sorry I'm getting
off topic, but it was also based on an actual
historical event, which was the Queen making this random made
attendant of hers her the purser, just like out of nowhere.

(04:29):
Pretty cool, pretty cool stuff. You love to hear it,
love to hear it, all right. So yeah, that's my
history with All About Nice Jamie, what's your history. I
love this movie a lot. I think I saw it.
I think I probably This probably is a movie I
saw like my freshman year in college. This seems like
around the correct time to have seen this movie. Um,

(04:50):
that's a guest. But I've seen this movie many times now.
It's weird. I haven't like thought about it from a
I mean it's weird. It's like, you can't think about
this movie from a feminist standpoint, which is kind of
great because it's like mostly women interacting with each other,
so you cannot. But this was my first time watching
it with like a Bechtel whatever helmet. Is it a

(05:11):
helmet that we wear? Um, it's with that I mean
in the in the quarantine, Yes, but yeah, it's one
of It's one of my favorite, um, I think, probably
one of my favorite movies ever, but definitely one of
my favorite older movies. I love. I was like when
I was a kid, I was like a TCM head
and Judy Garland and Bettie Davis were like my gals.

(05:33):
I love Betty Davis and her performance and this is
fucking ink. I mean, everyone's performance in this is great.
I love this movie. It's so weird because they were like, Okay,
the fact that you know someone is so powerful that
they can just be cruel and awful to everyone is
not a good thing. But I do like it when
it's Bettie Davis doing it. When Betty Davis is cruel
and terrible to everyone she's ever met. I love it.

(05:54):
I think it's cool. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie?
I too saw it, probably run freshman year when I
was in you know, I was a starry eyed film student,
much like Eve Harrington, you know, trying to just consume
as much cinema as I could. And what that meant
for me was I would watch like three DVDs that

(06:16):
I borrowed from the library a day and absorb none
of literally okay, okay, you're not even literally updated. Eve,
like two thousands are Eve would be watching DVDs. She
would be like, I'm going to figure this out, right, right, right.
So this is one of those movies that I had

(06:37):
on in the background and didn't apparently retain anything about it,
which is a shame because it's a really good movie
and there's lots to talk about it. I am very
excited to talk about it. The dialogue in this movie
is so smart and sharp and tight and clever and
so well written. It's incredible. Manko It's yeah, he got

(07:00):
it's it's I mean, there's there's Well, we'll talk about
the short comings of the story at lark, but like
the fucking script is it's so good. It's like every
character is so distinct, even like smaller characters that normally
I feel like movies of any era would just kind
of make a throw away. Like even Marilyn Monrose character
has like a small arc and she says funny stuff

(07:22):
and like it's just so good. I love it. Yeah,
let's dive into the recap. The movie starts with a
young woman named Eve Harrington. That's and Baxter. She is
a big fan of the theata and an even bigger
fan of an actress named Margot Channing. And that is

(07:44):
our queen Betty Davis, who is you know, a star
of the stage. And one night Karen Richards that's a
friend of Margot's. They are friends because her husband, her husband,
um Lloyd Richards, is the playwright of the production that
Margot is currently starring in. But this woman, Karen, sees

(08:08):
Eve outside of the theater and had noticed her. They're
like waiting night after night, so she decides to invite
her in and introduce her to Margot, right, which is like, okay,
this is the first act of kindness from a woman
to a woman in the movie, And she'll live to
regret it. I love that's like she's like, oh, let

(08:29):
me do something nice, and then the movie is like,
the biggest mistake you ruin everyone's lives. Yeah, let this
be a lesson. Women shouldn't be nice to each other,
never mix with the commoners. Right that too. It's a
classes in trench coach shall enter, so they invite her in.

(08:51):
They're all chatting and Eve tells them her story about
how she came to love the theater, about how she
had this husband who died in the war, and how
she started following Margot's career, and Margot is very smitten
by all of this and by Eve, and she has
Eve move into her house and start working for her

(09:13):
as an assistant more or less, I will say, a
second assistant. She already has an assistant, right Bertie, Oh
my god, Bertie is like the feminist icon of icon
Bertie coon in right, because it isn't like Bertie like
the main she's her main gal. And then Eve is, yeah,
like she's doing it. Doesn't even like Eve is doing

(09:36):
more than she's asked. She's Eve is acting the way
we're told as eighteen year old interns that you should
ask like, they're like, invent tasks for yourself, make yourself
seem useful even if you're not doing shit, And that's
kind of what she's doing A million percent, yes, And
this is kind of the start of her beginning to
cross some boundaries in her relationship it with Margot. And

(10:02):
then after that we see Eve maybe kind of flirting
with Margot's boyfriend, Bill Sampson, who Betty Davis was having
an affair with on set and would marry and was
married to for ten years. Excuse me, Yeah, they got
they like dumped their spouses at the time for each
other and he was her last husband. I know. They

(10:26):
have great chemistry too. It's like that that relationship is
I mean stuff have isn't but but it's like, I mean,
they got they got chemistry, you know what they do.
He daddies her from the very first scene he does. Yeah,
he dams her so hard and so immediately she's like,
what do you do and he's like, let me tell
you about the theater, kid like, and she just cowers.

(10:48):
And that's after he has come into the room and
called Margo like a trash heap or something like that.
He's like, you look like shit, I have a flight
in four or five minutes. It's like peak nineteen fifties writing.
It's like peak black and white movie where they're like,
what are you doing woman? You look like garbage and
she's like, oh, garbage, pooh pooh. And then and then

(11:10):
she just does what he says. But but yeah, and
then he like ignores Eve a couple different times. I mean,
these are like as close you can as you can
get to being like, oh, that sucks for it. But like,
I don't know, Eve is smart and honestly, when I
saw that scene this time, I had never thought about
this dynamic before. But the fact that he comes in
immediately talks to Margo and only Margo, even though he's like,

(11:33):
you look like should I have a flight? Let's go,
and like sees the other girl, barely says hi to
her and then fully only pays attention to Margo. I
think is a smart guy who's in a relationship with
a narcissist. That's a guy who's like, if I say
hi to this other woman in the room, she will
have my head. Yeah, I mean there I wonder, I wonder. Yeah,

(11:55):
Like their relationship is just like bizarre all around, but
there's like watching that scene with Eve this I haven't
seen this movie and maybe two years or so, but
watching that scene, it's like, I feel like everyone has
ben Eve in that situation to where just like someone
more powerful than you walks into a room and it's like,
who is this. Okay, great, anyways the other most powerful
person in the room. I'm going to be mean to

(12:16):
you and then leave and you're like oh yeah, and
I'm talking to you, but also kind of performing for everybody.
Yeah yeah, well, and then Margot's doing that too, to
the point where Bertie has to be like this is
making me physically ill. I'm leading I have to go
into the bedroom. That's what I love because they're all
doing this like you there, I know you that, And
then she's just like, oh but brother, she's just doing

(12:36):
like yeah, she's doing like a like old Timey Brooklyn
like character actor bit in the middle of this Transatlantic
accent scene, and you're just like, yeah, well, yeah, sure,
this is what the world like, sparkling with sparkling wit.
I'm like this Sparkling's amazing. And then Bertie is like
want a load up bull crap and like she's right,
She's the best. Bertie is amazing. She is and she

(12:58):
I wish that she was like written out after whatever
at the beginning of act too, But what can you do?
When I was researching the production of this movie, they
said that they had to cut like fifty pages from
the script. So there was some Birdie that hit the
cutting room floor. And originally she was supposed to Um,
she was going to be instead of that girl. Wasn't

(13:19):
like Phoebe. At the end, it's Birdie and she comes crown. Yeah. Um.
So it's at this point in the story when Margot
starts to get increasingly more and more annoyed with Eve
because of all the boundaries she is crossing methodically. It's

(13:42):
she's a master or manipulator. But we don't know that
yet quite as as an audience. We're only starting to
see hints of it. We start on the side of
like everyone's calling Margot paranoid, and we're like, Margot is paranoid, right,
but the tide will turn. Um. So, one night, right

(14:02):
before a homecoming slash birthday party um that is being
thrown for Bill, Margot and Bill have this big fight
about Eve because Margot is insecure about her age and
she's worried that um Eve, who is considerably younger than Margot,
will replace Margot. And then cut to the party, we

(14:27):
get that the famous line the fest in your seatbelts,
it's going to be a bumpy night, and we're like,
we're like, and then it is it. Yeah, she delivers
on the promise. Oh yes, she gets wasted. My girl
gets shit fish ship face. And then she still gives

(14:48):
the most articulate, pithy put downs of the entire Like
what everyone wishes they sounded like when they're blackout drunk
is how she's That's how everyone feels like they are
talking when they're bega mean drunk, but they're actually like
throwing up. Do not say this to me. I am
as wispy tinous. I'm like, I think I sound like

(15:10):
this after five hundred white cloths, and I'm just like
really cool but also like I don't care, but also
leave me alone. I have to ask the DJ to
play the same song five times in a row. I
love the like and and the way that and this
is also like the costume designs in this movie are
edith head, so they're fucking amazing, and the way that

(15:32):
they like the old Hollywood wood way to indicate that
a woman is drunk is just like slide her sleeve
off her shoulder and tussle her hair, and you're like, oh,
she's wasted, and like holding up holding up very full
Martini glass perfectly and never spilling it while being like
knowing and like you know, slurring your retorts. She's a star.

(15:53):
She's a star, right. And then Eve weasels her way
into being Mark goes understudy, unbeknownst to Margot, And then
there's this audition that happens with Marilyn Monroe's character, a
young actress named Ms Caswell. Eve shows up instead and

(16:14):
reads opposite her. In this audition, it turns out that
Eve is an amazing actor who blows everybody away, including
this theater critic named Addison DeWitt, which is another perfect
old timey theater critic name. Right. Never has there actually
been a person with a name like this. It's great. Yeah,

(16:36):
his names you get it, You get what he does,
You get what he's like. His name is DeWitt, do
you guys get it? Maco Wit is like Maco with
is like a stark and style jerking himself off, and
it's like, ah, there it is de wit so Eve
being awesome at acting makes Margo very jealous, and she

(17:00):
shows up at the theater after this audition and she
has this outburst. You know, Lloyd is like, you're a
horrible actress. And then Bill literally compares, he like objectifies
her to the point where he's like, you're a piano Look. Okay, wait,
I will say this. He doesn't say you're a horrible actress.
He says something almost worse, which is, you're too old

(17:21):
to play the part that I wrote and that you've
been playing for like at this point weeks months now,
you know, just to say, like it's not that you're bad,
you're just not young enough. I think I hate Lloyd
the most out of everyone in this movie because Lloyd
is just he's so infuriating to me. I feel like
he kind of gets off like like he's made to
so egotistical. Yeah, like I feel like this. Okay, So

(17:44):
like men in this movie are like bad, but it's
more it's written more that they're clueless rather than they
are making the rules. But like Lloyd could write apart
for Margot, that's her age. He just won't do it.
He's acting like my hands are tied. I can only
write about twenty year olds, and you're like, you have
the power to not do that. I hate Lloyd so much. Yeah.

(18:07):
Also like, if you know, if you are lucky enough
to know what kind of an actor you're going to
be working with, then you should write a part for
that actor. You know, right, why would you not? Whatever?
I hate Lloyd, Karen, Karen Defense Force. Karen can do better,
for sure. Yeah, so he sucks. And then Bill is
talking to Margot and he's like, you know, you're being paranoid.

(18:31):
I love you, but this is the last straw. I
gotta say goodbye, and then he leaves her, which I
think is healthy. I do think he's kind of like acting.
I like Bill some of the time. A lot of
the time he does, guess light her quite a bit,
or at least he does calls her paranoid without um

(18:52):
ever really truly listening to her and her feelings. So
I think that Bill is like cut too much slack.
But but I do agree Sara that him getting out
of their relationship when it becomes that volatile. I don't
really fault him for it, and neither does Margo. Yeah,
it's like it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good boundary
to have, you know, like they're not married, you know,

(19:14):
and he's like, I I agree that he's like he
calls her paranoid, which is like not okay, But at
that point, like when somebody is like lying to you
as much as Margot does and refusing to listen to
you as much as you're refusing to listen to them,
it's like, all right, I'm out. I don't know, it's yeah,
there's a Well, we'll talk about Bill because I have
like mixed feelings towards him, and I feel like maybe

(19:36):
I cut him too much slack because I really liked
the actor and the fact that he and Betty Davis
got married. Oh well, we'll get there. Also, he like
violently throws Margo down on a bed, which is obviously
not okay, but like pretty typical for an old Hollywood
film to see a man being violent towards women, Like

(19:59):
we also see Addison slap Eve in the face, you know,
which is very yikes. But anyway, um, so we're at
the point where you know, Margot's boyfriend has left, her
friends are upset with her, and then a short time later,
when Margot is returning home from a weekend getaway with
Karen and Lloyd. Some car trouble causes her to miss

(20:23):
her show that night, and it's implied that Karen drained
the gas out of the tank of the car on
purpose so that Margot would miss the show to help E. So,
with Margot being gone, Eve, her understudy, steps in, performs
the part and dazzles the crowd. And wouldn't you know it,

(20:47):
a bunch of theater critics just happened to be at
the show that night, and they're also all very impressed
with Eve, including Addison do Wit. Yes. So, now that
Eve is making her way into the spotlight, she tries
to seduce Bill Sampson, but he's like, wait a minute,

(21:07):
I'm still in love with Margot, and then he goes
back to Margot. Karen has also forgiven Margot and feels
super guilty about what she did to make her miss
the performance. And then Addison DeWitt has written this review
about how awesome Eve was in the play how awful
Margot is, And in this review, Eve talks about how

(21:31):
pathetic it is for older actresses to play parts for
younger women and how you know older women are bitter
and they don't want to support younger actresses. Then everyone's like, oh,
I guess maybe Margot wasn't being paranoid right right, except
Lloyd is still being a piece of ship because he's

(21:52):
he defends Eve. I hate Lloyd. What's just horny? I
hate him? Lloyd is horny and I also hate him.
So Lloyd is defending Eve and he's like, oh, well,
Eve claims that Addison put those words in her mouth.
And then he's like, and what if Eve is in
my new play performing the lead role of Cora and

(22:13):
then his wife. His wife Karen is like, listen, Eve
is a rat scumbag and you will not cast her
in your play. Yeah. Then that night, when Margot, Bill, Karen,
and Lloyd are out drinking some wine at a like
rich people establishment, Eve is also there a club. The

(22:37):
club in the club was it? What is it? Betty
Davis is like, where the elite come to meet? You're like, yeah, good, sure, whatever,
bit you are drunk again. Eve is also there and
she sends over a note asking Karen to meet her
in the ladies room, and she does very titanic make

(23:00):
it count meet me by the clock, and then they
actually go and have a really cool party below deck. No, Um,
what happens instead is that Eve and Karen chat and
Eve starts out by apologizing, but then her tone shifts
and then she starts blackmailing Karen because and Baxter is
so good in that. Yeah. She when she puts her

(23:23):
cards on the table every time, it's just like because
she knows that Karen has something to do with Margot
missing the show that night. And it turns out all
Eve once from Karen is for her to tell her husband,
her husband, Lloyd, to cast Eve in his new play.

(23:44):
And that apparently happens because we cut to Lloyd and
Eve rehearsing for the play bill is directing it right,
And then it seems like Eve is trying to get
close to Lloyd and she's like, hey, Addison, did you
know that Lloyd is going to leave Karen and that

(24:05):
he and I are going to get married? And Addison's like, oh,
actually no, that's not going to happen. You're not going
to marry him because you belong to me. I know
about your real past and others. It's so over dramatic
it shouldn't work, and yet it does right, Like it's
it's so much. So then he he blackmails her because

(24:29):
it turns out she's been lying about a bunch of stuff.
And then we cut to her accepting this award for
her acting, but like everyone hates her. Margot is there,
Karen is there. They're like this fucking asshole, and everyone
else in the room is a very old man who
is clapping heartily right, and they're just like, yeah, it's

(24:51):
so good. And then Eve wins the award and and
and Margot's mean to her one last time. Oh, and
he gives a spee each where she thanks Karen and
Lloyd and Margot and then they're just like a stony face.
I love it. And then Eve goes home and a
young woman who is obsessed with her, much like Eve

(25:16):
was obsessed with Margot at the beginning of the movie.
This young woman is in her house has like snuck
it broke into her house. And then she's like, oh
my gosh, Eve Harrington, I love you so much. You're
so awesome. And we're like, oh no, the cycle is
going to repeat itself. And I have so many thoughts
on the ending. So that's the story. Let's take a

(25:40):
quick break and then we will come right back to
discuss Can we start by talking about the ending? Is
that too Is that too much? Let's do it? Okay.
So this was the first time I had really given
some critical thought to the ending of the movie, because
I feel like greenplay wise, it's great because he brings

(26:02):
you all the way back to one and the quote
unquote villain of the movie is getting her come up,
and and it's like I never really questioned it before.
But my main criticism of this movie that I still
am gonna love forever and ever. But I think my
main criticism of it is that like that ending heavily
implies that, like the problem the whole time is eve

(26:23):
and it's it's ambitious women. Ambitious women are the problem,
and ambitious and women are like naturally inclined to be
catty towards one another and to be vicious towards one another.
And it's not like there this movie does not really
interrogate the system that they are put in, in the

(26:44):
positions they're put in, and the fact that they are
told they can't be useful after a certain age, and
the fact that there's only so many stars that can
exist that are women. So one does have to displace
another just because of the way it's been set up.
And so at the end, by having that other women
come for Eve and you're like, oh, he's gonna get
what's coming to her. It's like, but you know, for

(27:05):
for all the men of the story, I mean, I
think this is probably this is realistic for its time,
But for all the men of the story, things stay
status quo um and will for forever. Yeah, there's never
the implication that like Lloyd or Bill our rivals, right,
they're friends, they're like BFFs. Yeah, they're like great collaborators
and close friends. I mean, I guess the difference is

(27:27):
one is a writer and one is a director. But seriously,
it's it's still not I mean, and this is one
really great thing about the movie. We don't hear almost
anything about those guys and their careers outside of this. Yeah,
which is good because it's like who care, Like they're
they're not the interesting. I didn't even think of that. Like,
we know Bill goes to direct a movie, but we

(27:47):
don't know if the movie is good or anything. Yeah,
we don't know anything about that movie. Yeah, we don't
even know what it's about. It doesn't matter because Margot's
not in it, so it doesn't matter because she's the
center of the universe. It's very clear, I mean, and
it's like I don't even really want to knock the
writing too much for creating this reality, because it was
very reflective of the time, and still now it's like
it doesn't really matter how good the stuff they do is.

(28:08):
We don't actually know if Floyd is a good writer,
but like, the world is always going to make enough
space for them, so it doesn't even like they don't
even have to be good. The only male character I
want to know more about is Addison. I would watch
a fucking franchise about Addison DeWitt, just like Frasier. Yes
he really is. What if he was Frasier's No, he's
not Fraser's dad, that's Martin. I would buy him as

(28:29):
one of Frasier's cousins for sure. I can't believe I
just insulted Martin Crane like that. I'm so sorry, but yeah,
come on, but yeah, this was the first time I
ever thought of the ending as like, I mean, it
is like it it's just kind of it's the desis
statement of the movie of like this thing that's happening
with these women as cyclical, which might be true, but

(28:50):
it doesn't examine really why that is. I mean, I
want to describe the literal final shot, which is the
young woman Phoebe, the young woman who we are meant
to inter It is going to replace Eve wearing Eve's
cape and holding her award and looking at herself in
the mirror and like pretending that she's accepting the award,
and then it's her cape and her crown, and um,

(29:12):
Eve has this three way mirror so that you see
all these endless rows of Phoebe's accepting the award and bowing.
It's a beautiful shot and you might as well just
write in text on the screen such is Woman, because
it's like, look at this endless literally endless, infinite cycle
of not only identical but disposable. Yeah, am I reading

(29:36):
too much into this? I think that that is what
the intention is. Probably it's I love this movie. Okay,
that's what I had to say. That's what I had
to say about the ending. I just have never thought
of it from from that angle before. Yeah, it's it's
pretty funny because like she the girl, Phoebe is like, hey,
I'm president of the Eve Harrington fan club and Eve's

(29:58):
like yeah, okay, She's at no point she like how
did you get in here? But but it's it is
cool that, I mean, Eve gets so defensive right away
when that was her I mean a year ago. How
much time passes in this movie, It's unclear, it's less.
I think some of the voiceover. The voiceover is like, wow,
it was just last April or last October, like it's

(30:20):
it implies that it's only been like I think, yeah,
it's been like kind of a short amount of time.
I mean, you got a handed to Eve. Um. Part
of me wanted to interpret the ending as kind of
like a cautionary tale of like this is what happens
if you're a woman who exploits and tramples on other women.

(30:41):
But you're right, Jamie, like, it's not fair that ambitious
women are shown as being like the villains because and
there's so much to talk about, but there's this theme
that only pops up every so often in the movie.
But with Margot, you have this powerful woman who has

(31:02):
a solid career. She is very successful, but every once
in a while she'll be like, well here's the thing. Though,
a woman is not complete without a man. Yeah, there's
a conversation towards the end when she and Bill have
gotten engaged and she's like, I'm going to be a
married woman and Lloyd's like, well, what does that have
to do with anything? And Margot says, you know what

(31:25):
it means, I've I'll finally have a life to live.
I don't have to play parts I'm too old for
just because I've got nothing to do with my nights.
And it's like, oh my gosh, that's so bleak, Like
I know, it's like, is that is that what you
were doing? Right? It's so and it's like they're My
understanding is that that attitude was kind of reflective of
Betty Davis's feelings. She never had a desire to leave performing,

(31:48):
but it like she also historically in her life had
like would try to fill areas of her life through
marriages and stuff like that, and like there, I don't know,
I read a whole whole thing that was just like
drawing comparisons from Betty Davis's life to Margot. There's a
lot of one to one things. That part, Like that
gave me a little bit of pause too. I don't

(32:10):
know how to feel about it, because I do think
that it ends up being maybe a little bit too
far of like it's like a deeply heteronormative like, yeah,
a woman is not a woman without him. I mean,
you know, we're like we're basically we're quoting the script
here where she goes, you're not a woman if you
don't have a husband. Essentially, Um, she says that you

(32:31):
you can be a lot of things, but you're not
a woman. So like, in one sense, she doesn't discount
her accomplishments, but she doesn't see them as being compatible
with her sex. And also and were you know, we
assume her gender. You know, she's she's she's like, until
you perform the heteronormativity of being a woman in a

(32:52):
relationship with a man, you're not a woman. You're just
like essentially a laborer, but like one without sex. You know,
she's she's masculine eyes but also de sexualized. Heavy. Yeah, no,
I totally very heavy, and and the the way that
I mean. And and it's also like she decides to
she's she's like full on Oprah and steadman. She's like,

(33:13):
I don't want to marry you, like I love you,
I don't want to marry you, which is a kind
of like radical idea up until like pretty recently, um,
and he couldn't handle it. And he ends up getting
his way with that, And that's never really interrogated that much,
and it's implied that her making that change of heart
improves her life a lot. Is her kind of you know,

(33:33):
conceding to his wishes. There is a little bit part
of me where I feel like and I don't I
don't want to give Manko it's more credit for thinking
than he's actually doing. But he's a really good right
I don't know, but I've kind of viewed part of
that of like, Margot only has so many options in
her time, even though she's the most powerful, as powerful
as a woman could be in this time, she only

(33:55):
has so many alternatives to being and actress. And it
doesn't even seem like she doesn't want to be an actress.
She just doesn't want to put put up with all
the bullshit that she's going to be subjected to as
she gets older. And so I there's a way I
can see it. I still don't like the way that
they go with it, but there's a way I can
see it where she's like Okay, well what's my alternative this? Okay,

(34:16):
then I'll throw myself into this and hopefully it will
end better for me, which is bleak. It's a really
shitty choice that she has to make, but you understand
why she makes the one she makes, right, because it's like,
I mean, there's unfortunately there in there's no way that
her acting career was going to get easier as she
gets older. You mean yeah, yeah, like I mean Eve

(34:38):
or no Eve. And that was true for Betty Davis,
like I mean right, Because so this movie is largely
about a woman who is very insecure about aging, who
worries that she will be replaced by a younger woman,
both in her romantic life and her professional life. Then

(34:59):
her fear are actualized when a younger woman shows up,
exploits those insecurities and then like weasels her way in
and tries to replace her, and then you know the
various consequences of that. So it's another movie that focuses
on an antagonistic relationship between two women who are in
competition with each other. I do think that this, especially

(35:21):
for the time this came out in I think the
movie does a fairly decent job of exploring like why
women be in competition with each other because of the
through line of like Margot's insecurity about aging. But I
also agree Jamie, you know you suggested that the movie
doesn't really go so far as to say, well, why
would a woman be insecure about aging? Well, because like

(35:44):
men run society and men don't deem women getting older
is something that's socially acceptable. She's like, why doesn't Lloyd
write her apart? Like, why doesn't Lloyd write her apart?
It would be why doesn't Lloyd just fucking write her apart?
That would take Eve out of the equation entirely. They're like, oh, well,
this is an insurmountable problem that Bettie Davis has to

(36:05):
look twenty. Yeah, She's like, I have to say this though.
Upon this most recent reviewing, I was really really struck
by how good Eve is at doing what she wants
to do, because, like the opening scenes where they meet her,
I mean, you know, like basically one of the first
scenes where Karen meets her outside the theater takes you know,

(36:27):
says hey, you know, I've seen you outside the theater
every night, and she's like, yeah, you know, I watched
the play every night. And then I stand outside the
dressing room so I can maybe see Margot go in
and out, and it's so pathetic and it's fucking raining,
and it's she's all wet, and Karen is like, oh
my god. And then she gets to come inside and
meet Margot, and Margot mainly doesn't pay attention to her

(36:49):
for a while. And then when she finally and Eve
doesn't say anything. She's invisible. She's just like a fly
on the wall. And then finally, when there's like a
time where everybody's been introduced to Eve, she gives this
big fucking monologue that we later find out is full
of lies about her upbringing, and Bertie calls it out

(37:09):
right away. Bertie's like, wow, what is that like character
actor line she gives. It's like everything but the kitchens,
the Bloodhounds, everything but the Bloodhounds. Snippet. Yeah, it was great.
But the thing that she does in these early scenes
that I hadn't really noticed up until now how perfectly
she does it, is she targets what she knows about

(37:32):
those people and their insecurities, and she gives it to them.
So like Margot is insecure about her own power, and
so Eve defers to her. She's like, you're the queen.
I'm obsessed with you. I'll do anything you say, run
me over with a car. And Margot was like, I
kind of like this girl because that's like who Margot is.
She wants somebody who's like Margot is the most important

(37:54):
person in the universe. So like Eve fucking works to
get everybody on her side before she really starts sucking
up their lives, and like Bill, you know, she's like, hey, uh,
let me ask you a question about theater. He jumps
down her throat. She immediately is like, that's okay, I
don't mind. I like it, daddy, And he's like, hmmm,

(38:15):
I kind of like this girl. Like everybody she meets,
she she is exactly what they want her to be.
And you know, that's a lot of work. When she
tells the story of her life, she sets it up
so that Margot and the play aged in Wood literally
saved her life. And who doesn't want to hear that?
Who doesn't want to hear I was at my lowest

(38:36):
point and you and your art saved me right, Like
it's just it's it's so she is incredibly smart, and
she's like determined in a very funny old timing way.
But she's very determined to change her like station in life,
which a lot of us are, and it's like you,
she's trying to live out the American dream and she's

(38:57):
like willing to ruin people's lives over it, and it
sounds like, I mean, we don't know what Margot was
like as a young woman, but we do know that
Margot also started as like a lower middle class girl
and escalated to the huge star that she is. So
it's not out of the realm with possibility that Margot
was once using this playbook, um, which I think it
would be kind of interesting to know. But I think

(39:18):
like Eve, I mean, I know, even the quote unquote
villain of the story, but even watching it, even if
you don't interpret Eve as the villain of the story,
it is like cool to see, like you're saying, sorry,
how she uses that playbook, which it's like in many ways,
and it's like frustrating to watch her have to kind
of like convince these mostly male figures and Margot that

(39:40):
she is worthy and to get the information she needs
to get to where she wants to be. But then
you kind of see at a much lower less scary level.
Marilyn Monrose character has to do the exact same thing
where she's like brought out and told immediately like you
have to be nice to this old man. If you
want to be successful, do it. And then and people

(40:01):
get frustrated with her because she's good at it. But
it's like you told her that that was the only
option she had, Like what else is she supposed to do? Yeah,
like Addison de Witt brings her to Margo's party to
flirt with Max. Yeah, to flirt with Max, because Max
is a producer, and Max is just like, oh my stomach,
you know, like he's that Hollywood producer we all know

(40:23):
and love from the forties. I guess he's like I
need I need digestivates. You're like, yeah, get this man
some thums. You're like, what the fund does this guy do?
And then Addison just as goes, okay, well here's Max.
Go basically, you know, pull your dress down off one
shoulder and go, you know, hang out with him a
little bit. And she's like, okay, just go show over

(40:45):
your tits, okay. But it's like she's not given and
and it's also what I like about I mean, There's
not too much to say about Marilyn Monro's character. She's
only in two scenes, but she does have that little
arc where I think she tells him like outright, she's
just like, whire all of these guys gross. Like she
basically says, I hate that I have to do this,
and he's like, well, you have to do it, so yeah, yeah,

(41:08):
And it's like that. I I appreciate that this greenwriting
goes to like demonstrate that, like, these women aren't idiots.
They know that like what is being asked if them
is unreasonable. But there there doesn't at this time seem
to be an alternative, right because, like I mean, we
we talk about what women sometimes have to do to
get ahead in the world because the world is set

(41:30):
up so that it's harder for women to you know,
make a livable income or to get promotions or be
leaders of industry or anything like that. And this was,
you know, even more true for nineteen fifty than it
is now. So that means that, you know, women sometimes
have to turn to other avenues just to be able
to survive or get ahead in the smallest way, and

(41:53):
sometimes that means women having to use their sexuality to
get ahead, which is what we see Marilyn Monroe do
um well, and Eve's willing to do it too. She
tries to seduce Bill, she tries to seduce Lloyd. Okay,
so question about even Lloyd. Do you think she's bullshitting
Addison at the end, I can't tell. I feel like
just knowing her, yes, I think she is. But I'm

(42:15):
always down to hate Lloyd more. But it doesn't seem
like that just seems like it happened too fast to
be true, and things like we don't see and you know,
the fact that they apparently cut fifty pages of script
kind of makes this make more sense. I'm like, we
never we as viewers never see them together, which is
a thing that we need to have to you know
what I mean. In this film, the camera is objective,

(42:38):
so if we had seen Lloyd and Eve make out,
I would believe it. But when Eve says something, I
don't necessarily believe it, right, which is like you're supposed
to feel that way too, So you're just like, but
but is that an artistic choice to like to imply
ambiguity or is it just cover time? I'm not sure,
But I mean, so we have like women using their

(43:00):
sexuality to get ahead. We or like women marrying a
man who will provide financial security, and that's maybe like
what Karen does with Lloyd, because like she's always framed
as like I don't have any part of the theater
except for my husband, he is a playwright, and she
does have his job for him. What do we see
over and over, Like she makes a lot of the
high level decisions, she makes casting decisions like I'm just

(43:23):
like put her on the bank roll Lloyd, Jesus no, yeah,
yeah yeah. And then another thing that women might have
to do to again like change their station in life
is to trample on other women to get ahead, which
is what Eve is doing. But again, like, there are
a lot of situations where women might feel like they

(43:44):
have to compete against another woman for something, and it's
often because they're operating within an industry or an institution
that is again controlled by men, and men have only
allotted a small number of spaces for the women to occupy.
So of course, like women and feel like they have
to compete against each other for these very finite number
of spaces, especially when society gives women like an expiration

(44:09):
date and like doesn't value older women, which is Margot's
whole insecurity Um And I feel like a lot of
a lot of movies that we've talked about do have
this through line of women being in competition with each
other and some into varying degrees of success. Will they
explore why that might be, But the fact that it

(44:29):
attempts it, I feel like it is like kind of impressive,
kind of impressive for ninety especially a movie that was,
you know, written and directed by a man um because
a lot of these movies, like the ones that we've
covered so far in the podcast, that have been about
kind of antagonistic or competitive female relationships. You know, We've
got Death Becomes Her, Working Girl and the Favorite Those

(44:50):
are some of our Matreon episodes. We've got Black Swan,
We've got Single White Female, We've got My Best Friend's Wedding.
And I think all of these movies are written and
or directed by men. So I'm like, if manco Witz
can do it thirty years before you did, what's the
problem or just let a woman write a movie. Women's

(45:11):
interiority was not invented until the nineties. But I also
wonder like how many of these men are just like, well,
women be petty and women be competing against each other.
I have no idea why they might be like that,
but that's how they be, so like they just make
movies about it. There. The other thing with this that

(45:33):
is not even mentioned in the film's credits, which seems
kind of fucked, is that um Joseph Manko has adapted
this from a short story written by a woman. Um,
which may expect. I don't know how faithfully adapted it is.
I think that he like it was a pretty short
story and he really flushed it out, and it was
mainly the Eve character that he took. But it was

(45:55):
a short story written by a writer named Mary Or
who I guess was hanging or round Hollywood and had
like seen some all about Eve situation and wrote about it.
But she's not She's not credited at all, and she's
not credited. They just like stole her story and didn't
credit her. Well, I mean, I think she didn't steal it.
She was pay like she was, but she wasn't credited,

(46:16):
which is like bad. Um, We've got to take another
quick break, but we'll come right back. Well, we're talking
about Eve. I wanted to talk Caitlin. We talked about
this briefly yesterday. But um, there has been a fair

(46:37):
amount written about um how Eve maybe queer coded. It's
never been said by Mankowitz whether this was intended, but um,
it's been speculated that the characters of Addison de Witt
and Eve are both queer coded characters, and they are
also the two villains of the story. Um, which seems
to be you know, a very um, regressive, old timmy

(47:00):
Hollywood thing that happens all the time. But there's been
I mean, it's weird, there's stuff written about it kind
of both ways. I'm pulling brilliantly from the Wikipedia page here.
But um, brave, brave Jamie, thank you so much. I
can't wait for to read our iTunes reviews of like
These Dumb Broads Should Die? Um um okay. Professor Robert J. Corber,

(47:27):
who has studied homophobia within the cultural context of the
Coldware in the US, posits the foundational theme and all
but Eve is the defense of the norms of heterosexuality,
specifically in terms of patriarchal marriage. Uh must be upheld
in the face of challenges from female agency and homosexuality.
The nurturing heterosexual relationships of Margo and Bill, and of

(47:47):
Karen and Lloyd served to contrast the loveless relationship, predation,
and sterile careerism of the homosexual characters, even Addison. Um, okay,
so question what is the basis for reading Eve as
queer coded? I guess because she never she's like doesn't
have a real boyfriend. I don't know, right, Okay, so

(48:08):
this is basically the same thing with Addison is like
he's kind of effeminine and he doesn't have a girlfriend.
That's it. Well, I've also seen people. I've also seen
people site the line and it's it's like either way,
they don't explicitly like Addison for sure fields old timey
queer coding to me. But I'm like, maybe that's not true.
I don't know, but but there is that one line.

(48:29):
I definitely I definitely think so. But um, sometimes that's
all there is, you know what I mean. Like, but
but that doesn't mean that it's not a thing, you
know what I mean? The line I saw people sighting
in writing about this movie as like possibly commenting on
quirt as. It was at the end where Addison says
that he like actually doesn't want to suck or anything.
She's gross and then he says, you're an improbable person, Eve,

(48:51):
So am I we have that in common? And so
different people have interpreted that as some like very production
codey it may shin of otherness, but it was never said.
And and interestingly, Mankowitz Um has said in interviews later,
I don't think he was asked about this outright, but

(49:11):
that he he um is not homophobic, which is I
mean imagine um he said that, Um he thinks that
society should quote drop its vendetta against homosexuals unquote, which
is a very old timey way to be an ally. Um.
Can I give a different reading? And I'm sorry, I

(49:33):
just I've been too exposed to b D s M
culture via via a close friend to not be able
to read so many scenes in this as highly sexual
power dynamics. So one way that I read Addison and
Eve is like he shows up and he's like, hey,

(49:55):
what if I own you? And she's like, UM, no thanks,
and he's like, all blackmail you if you don't let
me own you, because that's what he wants to do.
And while I see that as a reading of like
he's gay and he wants a beard, you know, if
that's like the queer reading. It's like beat my girlfriend
in public, and I'll not reveal your secret life to anyone.

(50:16):
Also want to mention her real name, Gertrude Slovinsky. There
might be some other types of coding going on here
that's true or not careful. There might be a little
bit of a little bit of anti Semitism here if
we're if we're thinking about it, and I mean you
would think that in this I mean, I think that
this movie is supposed to take place around n That
used to be a super common Hollywood practice would be

(50:38):
if you had a name that sounded to other in
any way, you just have to change it. But not
make a Witz, not make Wits. But if make a
Witz was a woman, maybe he would have possibly, Yeah,
you know, I think I think it's a it's a
it's an interesting way of commenting on like whitewashing in Hollywood.
I mean, the whole readA Hey Earth story. There's so

(51:02):
many stories like that. It's an interesting it's an interesting point.
But anyways, back to back to even Addison, Um, it
really feels like it's a very master slave type relationship. Um.
And that may not be what is implied, but I
think if you, uh, if you wanted to read it
that way, you could and it just I don't know,
it really jumps out at me. That's a fun read

(51:24):
like that. There dynamic is like, so it's so sexy,
you know, as you said, um, as you quoted from that.
Basically the queer theory reading of it, their relationship is
very sterile, sexless ambitious. It's all about getting ahead. He
wants to be with her, not because he wants to
fuck her, you know, it's about my career, like your

(51:45):
body disgusts me. I only love power. Let's use each other. Yeah,
and then Eve is like mmmm, but like once Eve,
Eve immediately uses Addison before before that part. She uses
Addison from the beginning to at a hit like she's like,
come watch my audition. Oh, I'll hang out with you, like,
and she uses him in his column. I don't know.

(52:07):
It's it's a very it's a tale of like two
people who are both very strong willed and trying to
manipulate each other. And then Addison is like, I have
out manipulated you. Now you're the sub I don't know.
I like this theory and it should be added to
the Wikipedia page. Thank you. Please, added Jamie added to
the page, I'll do it. But yeah, that there, that's

(52:30):
the that's the queer theory reading. Before we get to Margaret.
I mean, Margot's the one to watch here, but I
wanted I had a few things to say quickly about
Karen a k a the his wife of the story.
I could talk about Karen four hours. Karen is I
feel again it's like they're most movies of this time
and of this time would not make Karen such a

(52:54):
like a character with such depth, because she's presented to
us as like she is the good wife Julianna Margolie's
like she she's very polite, she's very respectful, she is
doing what society is expecting of her. But later you
get to see that she's like frustrated. She's frustrated and
insecure in her marriage because she's married to an egotistical, asshole,

(53:16):
narcissist who doesn't recognize how much she's contributing to his career. She,
like Margot, is constantly told that she's being hysterical when
she is simply stating what is happening in front of people,
and I like that her Her friendship with Margot is
kind of complicated too, because Margot is condescending to her
for being a good wife, So like Karen is being

(53:39):
put down for doing what society is asked of her,
and Margot, I kind of interpret, like takes out her
insecurity on Karen and be like, oh, you're such a
good little wife, and then that motivates Karen to kind
of fuck Margot over a little, which, like I think
lesser writing would make that seem like women be fucking
each other over, But with Karen, it's like, no one

(54:00):
isn't shipping on Karen and she's only like doing what
she thinks that she's supposed to do, and so I
just like, I think she's fascinating, and I mean, I
just like her. Between Margot, Bill Lloyd, and Eve, everyone
in Karen's life is a narcissist except Bertie. Except for Bertie,

(54:23):
who is so awesome. Bertie is absolutely my favorite character.
She's Karen is like caretaking everybody, constantly catering to these
huge egos that are pummeling her from every direction. Like
can you imagine being friends with Margot the world's biggest leo,
Like just somebody who's always like it's all about me, me, me,
like literally the star of the show on stage and off,

(54:46):
she's exactly the same. Everybody is like Margot's famous for
being nuts, so like she's just a very classic drama
Queen's literally Betty Davis like it's just yeah, and she's like,
she's like, Karen's my best friend, Like, who do you
think that best friend is not somebody who's ever going
to try and take the spotlight away from her? Yeah,
someone who's compartmentalizing the funk out of her life, no

(55:08):
threat to Margot whatsoever, and someone who's very, very very
happy being being totally behind the scenes. Karen deserves better,
but also she then she drains the gas tank and
it's like, I'm gonna sunk over my friend. I like that.
I like that, Karen. But Karen's not smart there I think,

(55:31):
I mean, Karen's smarter than people give her credit for it,
but I guess that that's kind of relative. But she's
not that smart. Everyone treats Karen like a fucking idiot,
and she is like average. She thinks she's smart. I
just don't think she's conniving the way that like Eve is,
or I don't think she is. She does like one
mean thing and then immediately feels endless guilt about it,

(55:53):
And I mean it was a really shitty thing, Like
I think what Karen does is almost worse than things
that that like. And she never comes clean to Margot
about it. I mean, Margot would murder her, but Margot
would murder her, and so she doesn't tell her, and
so she is kind of in a way lying to
her best friend. She is yes, to protect her life.

(56:15):
These people need therapy, So a therapist. Why would I
have a therapist when I get sorry, when I could
have a bottle of scotch ha ha. You're just like,
oh my god, therapist right, hair on the ball cock.
But then I feel I mean, I do feel bad
for Margot, who again is like a pretty egomaniacal narcissist who,

(56:37):
maybe you could argue, kind of drums up drama now
and then. But also like she is, you know, the
victim of Eve exploiting and manipulating her. And she keeps
saying like, I don't trust this woman. She's annoying me.
She's like pushing boundaries, like there's a lot of issues here.
She's lying all this stuff, and you know, Bill is like,

(56:59):
you're a paranoid none of this is happening. You know.
Lloyd is over here being like having you in my
place is a compromise. Your performances are lackluster, but it's
only because he's not writing the right parts for her.
He calls her a piano. It makes me so mad.
Oh he like it's it's one of those funny ones
where you're like, oh, men objectify women, and then you

(57:22):
hear that line and you're like that's a bit much
like there. Yeah, like that's a little too on the nose, dude,
we get it. You think women are objects exactly brutal.
I love in the party scene where Addison is like
kind of drunk and he's just like blathering about like
we're all freaks in the theater and like talking about
how they're all they all go to the theater because

(57:43):
they have nowhere else to go. Man, it's like this
fucking breakfast club ass moment. And he's like, that's why
we're all here, dude, and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, we're
all a little random here, and you're like, stop it.
It's so x d I do agree. I think that,
like Marco, I mean, Margot is that's why she's so amazing.

(58:07):
It's like she like, there are times where she is
being a straight up brat, she's being a diva at
different times, but then there's other times where it's like, no,
she this concern she has is legitimate and people are
ignoring her, and she's just defensive about it because everybody
is constantly telling her, like, hey, don't you think you

(58:27):
should maybe think about retiring? So she's kind of like, no,
funk off. Yeah, there's a few. There's a few moments
that I mean, Mark like, all of her moments are great,
but they were like two in particular that I was
just like that always blow me away. The first one
is it's a scene with her and Bill. It's been
mentioned that she's like gained a little bit of weight
and she's being shamed for it, and she's in the

(58:49):
same she is almost eating a chocolate the whole scene,
which is a miracle because we don't see women eating
movies ever. Uh, and Bill is calling her hysterical. He's
saying it gently, but he's like, you gotta relax with
all this stuff, la lah blah, and she's like resisting
eating the chocolate and resisting eating the chocolate, and then
once he gaslights her for the fourth or fifth time,
She's just like shrugs and eats it, and it's like

(59:12):
it's such a good moment. You're like, yep, everyone's been
in that situation. And then there's that scene with her
and Karen in the car, which is like heartbreaking and
so like that scene where like Margaret, like if it
wasn't already clear, you know that she's like very self
aware of like she doesn't want to be loved for

(59:33):
her image. She wants to be loved for herself. But
how can she expect someone to love her for herself
when she can't even distinguish herself from her image? And
you're like, WHOA, that's heavy. And then she has that
that monologue where she's like, funny business a woman's career,
like that whole woman's career speech. Oh yeah, I have
it here. She says, funny business a woman's career. The

(59:55):
things you drop on the way up, the letters so
that you can move faster. You'll forget you need the
when you get back to being a woman. That's one
career all females have in common, whether we like it
or not, being a woman. But then she goes on
to be like and you're not a woman unless you
have a man who is married to you haven't performed
your gender until you have U have a sexual partner.

(01:00:17):
It's it's so it's so heartbreaking because it's like you
can you can see why she wants to give up
show like it's it's and and it's the same with
like Bettie Davis. If like, it's not that Margot doesn't
want to act, is that she just like is tired
of like having to act in a very specific way
that no longer makes sense, and like having to put

(01:00:38):
up with all this stuff like no wonder she's like,
fuck it. Yeah, how many actors, how many actors and
actresses in Hollywood right now? Do you think basically feel
the exact same way. Sure, I mean it's like I
think you see a lot of women who I mean
usually they start lifestyle brands. But I'm thinking of someone
I think of because we just recorded Are my best

(01:00:59):
Friend's wedding episode yesterday, is Cameron Diaz, where like she
was so famous and she always played a variation on
like the same role, and then when she turned forties,
she was like and I don't I mean, I don't
want to speculate and Cameron Diaza. I don't know why
she chose to retire from acting, but I mean it's
it's like, you know, they're there, just aren't as many options,

(01:01:22):
and it's like you can go on ABC and play
a lawyer, but like what else you know, there's not
the options aren't always there, and it's like you you
have to like empathize. I don't know, Marko, that's that
car speech, fox me up. It makes me so sad. Yeah,
it's that ultimate moment if she's like, man, I know
I've been a bit, but ship can you blame me?

(01:01:44):
And you're like Noah, And it's so it's so like
relatable to me to be like, ah, fuck, well, I
guess I was really shitty everybody. Yeah, I mean she
said something like I've been over sensitive to the fact
that Eve is so young, so feminine, so helpless, Like
she is like admitting to her insecurities about like Eve's

(01:02:06):
youth and all this stuff, and then like Karen is
sitting right beside her being like well, being being feminine
in this context is being helpless. Like Margot is less
feminine because she is not totally helpless. She definitely struggles
with things, but she doesn't she doesn't need a man,
you know, like or at least she or at least
she acts like she doesn't for a while and then goes, yeah,

(01:02:29):
I do. I don't like that was kind of a
with with her and Bill. It's like there are a
lot there are issues in that relationship. But I was
kind of like, does she like need a man or
does she want one? And like, like, I think maybe
she doesn't need one, but she does want one, and
there's like a conflict in her feelings of like she
wants a man in her life, but she only wants
it on very specific terms of like she's like you

(01:02:49):
are Steadman, and Bills like I don't want to be
Steadman and she's like, well, I don't know what to
tell you because I want Steadman. And I mean, it's
it's really interesting because it's I'm I think that it
would be kind of like the easy choice to make
with Marco, and I don't like the way that they
end up sort of being like and then she was
a wife and the end. But I think it is

(01:03:11):
an interesting choice to give Margot the dimension of like, yes,
she's very powerful, she guards her power, she's very talented,
but she does want someone to love her for herself
and is worried that that's not going to happen. That's
very understandable. And if she wants a companionship in a
man like totally fine. Many many people do, but it

(01:03:34):
feels like such a weird inconsistency for her to start
out being like, no, I don't want to get married.
If we got married right now, it would just be
to prove a point, and I don't want that, Like,
we don't need to be married, and then like suddenly,
out of nowhere, there's this shift in her character where
she's like, well, I'm not a woman unless I marry
this man, so let's get engaged. And it's like, where

(01:03:57):
is this coming from? Well, it reminds me a lot
of Katherine Hepburn movies, where in the beginning she's like,
I don't need a man, funk everyone, and then halfway
through the movie someone goes, Katherine, you've been putting on
this persona where you're a bit and we know that
deep down you want love from a man, and then
she goes, I do, and I love those movies and
I love Katherine Hepburn, and and she knew this, and

(01:04:19):
she even talked about this as an actress, that she
was typecast as you know, this this huge, gorgeous, like
Amazon sort of lesbian, you know, who had as many
lines and as much screen time as the man that
she was in a romance with. But you know, it's
it's how kind of how I feel about the Philadelphia story. Like,

(01:04:41):
I love that in the beginning of that movie, she's
so hard and so strong about maintaining her identity, and
like in this movie, Margot was like, Hey, I love you,
but I don't want to subsume my literal identity into yours.
And Bill is like, come on, come on just a little,
and she's like, no, I don't like that. And then
by the end she's like, know what, I really love Bill.
I guess I could subsume my identity for him a little,

(01:05:04):
which is a thing that millions of people do every
fucking day. Yeah it sucks, because yeah, it's it sucks
to like watch someone make that choice, but it's it
makes sense that she like of the time, it makes
I don't know, well, you know, I'm just saying like
it feels it feels relevant to now. You know, there
are just people who are like who either you know,

(01:05:25):
sometimes it's marriage, sometimes it's moving in with a partner.
Sometimes it's just you know, your fucking boundaries or whatever.
But I don't know, I feel like there are there
are people now who who are in kind of the
same situation. And this movie is pretty old and that
is yeah. I mean it is like and and I
mean even speaking to it, you're saying about Katherine Hepburn
movie is like that, like taming an independent spirit thing

(01:05:48):
is such a thing. And it's also like, yeah, like
the the almost like weird fantasy of like male writers
being like, oh, the only reason that a woman would
act independent is because they want to get the attention
of a man. And then what they do they can chill,
you know. And yeah, the way I do I kind

(01:06:09):
of against my better judgment. I like Margot and Bill
for each other in in a lot of moments, and
I do appreciate that he shows up for her in
a way that that no one does in the movie,
because he's like one of the only people in the
movie who doesn't really betray her at any point. Um,

(01:06:30):
So we do appreciate him on that level of like
he does seem to be I mean, for all the
you're hysterical and not like we see the same scene
with multiple female characters in this movie where it's a
woman talking to a man and he's like, you're being
hysterical and she's like, no, it's you're talking to me
that way because of my gender, and they say what,

(01:06:51):
and then that's the whole scene. Um. Yeah, and Bill
is Bill is just as guilty of that attitude as
the other men in the movie. I do appreciate that
he shows up for her and does seem to love her,
and there's like when that bullshit Addison de Witt article
comes out, he's there right away, and like, I appreciate

(01:07:11):
that element of Bill. I do think that like Margot
and Bill are a very good pair because Margot really
wants somebody who only wants her, and you know, for
all of Bill's other faults, that is something that he is.
You know, he wants, Yeah, he loves, he loves her
and and I know, like for the cultural context of

(01:07:32):
the time, there are things that you know, we would
interpret as like clingy or weird that at the time
we're like, this is what someone does when they're in
love and respect a woman. You know, it's weird it's
like and in this movie, this movie is very often
compared to Sunset Boulevard, which comes out around the same time,
and there was like just a period I'm sure that

(01:07:53):
someone's written a thesis on this, but like a period
of time where like the aging actress was a part
that was available to women over forty and they were like,
look at this amazing opportunity for you. You're playing yourself
and how you feel insecure, and they were supposed to
be like, and you're a monster, and it ends horribly
for you. But but I think, I mean, I used

(01:08:14):
to really like Sunset Blean. It's a very well written movie.
But I think watching them both, I've seen them both
this year now, and I mean, Sunset Bolevard is is
not very kind to women. And I think that, like Margot,
I guess Margot's strength at the end of the movie
is that she has the respect and love of the

(01:08:35):
people in her life. Still, She's still even though Karen
is lying to her, she has Karen, she has Lloyd,
she has Bill, and she has like her support system
is intact, and but that's at the expense of her
career sort of. I don't know, it's just all very right, Well,
I think I think what the film like wants to
portray by the end is like, sure, E've got what

(01:08:56):
she wanted material gain, power, success, aim, but at the
expense of she can't break up with Addison DeWitt or
else he will destroy her life. So like She's got
this partner who she's with not because she loves him,
but because he's literally blackmailing her. And Margot has this
partner who is with her because he loves her, and

(01:09:17):
that's it. He's not with her because she's famous. He's
not trying to get anything out of her. He really
does just want to be with her, even if she's
not an actress anymore. So in that way, like Margot
basically not being an actress anymore is shown as like
a positive thing. Yeah, like for her identity. Yeah, it's
implied that she's able to be more comfortable and more

(01:09:40):
herself not acting. But again that lets I mean, that
lets Lloyd off the hook in a major way, because
it's like, yes, why would you want Lloyd in your lifestyle.
It's like, I mean, ultimately watching it through this time,
it just felt very clear that like the villain of
the movie is the industry that they're in and not
even specifically, Um, whether the movie recognizes that, I kind of.

(01:10:03):
I don't know. I don't think so. Actually, I don't know.
I don't know how hard was thinking about this. I
don't know. I think it does. I think it touches
hard on, you know, like with the with the Miss
Caswell stuff, on just the disposability of young talent and
how the industry will take somebody from nobody to super
famous receiving industry's highest award within a year, and who

(01:10:27):
knows what the funk will happen to even in a year.
You know, she's like a she's like a child star basically,
you know, and child stars often have a very rough
time when they stop being a child star. It's true. Yeah,
I mean I think that at very at least manko
Witz is he's making common he's making a pretty brutal
commentary on theater specifically, which like so I'm like, okay,

(01:10:50):
you know he's got some vendetta against the theater what
But like, yeah, it does seem like he has an
awareness that this is But but I can't tell that
if he's just framing like this is how this industry works,
I can't tell how critical he actually is of it,
I don't know, um, but either way, it's a fucking
well written movie. It's really I have Can I share

(01:11:12):
some of my favorite lines of dialogue, because there are lots.
I'll try to pair this down, um, starting with I mean,
there's among the many, many conversations that Margot has about
age and aging in her insecurities around it. UM. At
one point we learned that she is forty and Bill
is thirty two, so she's eight years older than him,

(01:11:35):
and she says, he's thirty two, he looks thirty two.
He looked at five years ago, he'll look at twenty
years from now. I hate men. Another one is toward
the beginning, when Margot says to Lloyd, be a playwright
with guts, write me one about a nice, normal woman
who just shoots her husband. And we're like, yes, they

(01:11:59):
really knew how to like write amazing insults and like
Snyde remarks in old Hollywood Betty Davis, I guess she
had a reputation for rewriting a lot of her own
lines in movies, and this was supposed to be one
of the only movies she was ever in that she
like didn't rewrite a single line. Amazing, interesting because there's

(01:12:20):
an exchange about that where Lloyd is talking about the
words he's written in his plays, and he's like, just
when exactly does an actress decide they are her words
that she's saying, her thoughts she's expressing. And Margot responds
right back with usually at the point when she has
to rewrite and rethink them to keep the audience from
leaving the theater, right, which is like, literally, what Betty

(01:12:43):
Davis would do? We really really quick before I forget,
So I guess. Claudette Colbert was originally supposed to play
the part of Margo um and, in I think the
most old Hollywood depressing reason of all time, she could
not play the part and the part went to Benny
Davis because Claudette Colbert hurt her back in a rape
scene in a movie. Literally the movie was about her

(01:13:07):
getting raped and her back was hurt, and so she
couldn't play this role of a lifetime. Most oppressing thing
I've ever heard in my life anyways, um continue, that's
so fucked up. Also, um manco Witz said that, and
Baxter he said it was such a weird, old timey

(01:13:28):
sexist compliment. He said that ann back he chose and
Baxter to play Eve because she had bitch virtuosity. Yeah.
I read that somewhere too, which is I'm like, I mean,
he's right. I feel like women should be allowed to
use that phrase among themselves. Yes, Eve has extremely high

(01:13:50):
level of bitch virtuosity. And okay, Caitlin, did you write
down that part where Eve is talking about applause and
she's like, applause, applause, it rushes over you like waves.
Oh no, I didn't write that one down. It's so good.
She's just like I can only get horny when people
are applauding. That whole scene is just her monologue about

(01:14:10):
like I need attention. I love it and I can't
live without it. And that's why I feel like with
her in Addison, it's just about power. She's like I
need the power, and he's like, I got you the power.
You're my slave, and she's like, okay, Oh, here's a
fun one that Marilyn Monroe's character says to Eve about
Addison de Witt because Eve is like, oh, I don't

(01:14:32):
want to we we should? You should to me, I'll
just I'll just bore you and Marilyn Monroe says, you
won't bore him, honey, you won't even get a chance
to talk. And oh, it's like such a great burn
that she I don't even think she realizes is a burn.
Marilyn Monroe is so good at that, at like just
being like acting so dumb but saying it so perfectly. Yeah,

(01:14:52):
man's great. Uh. And then I think my final favorite
line that I will share is Lloyd talking to Karen
while they're arguing about Eve. He says that better cynicism
of yours is something you've acquired since you've left Radcliffe,
and Karen says that cynicism you referred to I acquired
the day I discovered I was different from little Boys,

(01:15:15):
and we're like, ah, feminist icon Karen. Karen is right.
Every time a woman has intuition in this movie, she
has treated as if she is making things up right,
and she's always right. She's like, like, being a woman
is about knowing ship that men don't know. Good grief.
The men in this movie are pretty dim. It's true.

(01:15:36):
Does anyone else have any other final thoughts to share?
I don't think so. This is Oh god, this is
so much fun. Yeah, this is I mean, I'm so
glad I got to talk about this movie with someone
about um the scene where Eve is in the bathroom
with Karen and his blackmailing her. She's wearing this incredible
costume that has a really high neck and has like

(01:15:59):
sort of a scallop neckline, and the actual neckline is
very low, but the neck is very high and in
between is like a fine mesh. And it's so perfect
for a scene where somebody who has acted extremely modest
up until this point is suddenly is shown to be
extremely false and have been like good costumes, good costumes

(01:16:20):
he had. Has anyone ever said that? Also, Jamie, there
is a respute and reference? Did you catch it? I love?
I mean, as if the work couldn't be elevated more so?
Good God, if I wish, I wish Alfred Molina were
alive for this, oh really quick car update. So I've

(01:16:44):
been following, uh, Alfred Molina's fens to really carefully through
the car and he he has a fence to and
he's been sewing his own masks and he did a
little so is my mom. He did a little jokey
post yesterday where he was a message to everyone out
there in the quarantine and it was just him wearing
his mask and he was like who who and everyone's

(01:17:08):
like ha ha, Freddy, you crack me up. I love that. Oh.
I was going to tell you, guys, I saw Alfred
Malina in a play. Wait did you see the one
in Pasadena? Yeah? I saw the father. I saw the daddy.
It was good that daddy was so good and so sad.
I was not prepared for it to be so sad.

(01:17:28):
Well I was. I was also led to believe that
the woman who played ros On Fraser was going to
be in the play, and that turned out to not
be true. So I was a little disappointed from the
guy that's so funny. My friend was just wrong. She
was like Ross from Fraser is in it, and I
was like, okay with Alfred Mallina for sure. Well, this
conversation about Alfred Malina unfortunately does not pass the well

(01:17:49):
I know it actually does pass the Bechtel tests, because
we have said that any conversation about Alfred Millina does pass.
And speaking of the Bechtel test, does all about Eve
pass the Bechtel tests? Oh? Yeah? With flying colors? Oh yeah,
first seen all the time. There's a lot of combinations
of characters who talk to each other that passed between

(01:18:09):
even Karen, between Eve and Margot, Margot and Karen, Margot
and Birdie. The list goes on. It's a lot of passes.
As far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples.
Based on its representation of women, this one is a
little tricky, and I wasn't nervous. I'll be honest, I

(01:18:30):
was a little nervous to talk about this movie because
you know, it's classical Hollywood cinema. I don't know an
awful lot about old Hollywood, so I was like, oh, no,
there's like gonna be all this context and stuff that
I don't know about, and like information about the way
you know, movies were made and the way stories were
told back then, and I just don't know enough about it.

(01:18:52):
But I do enjoy this movie. I do still struggle
with movies that are about antagonistic relationships between women. I
do think this movie has like a lot of nuance
to its female characters. I do enjoy that it is
female driven, but I still, if given a choice, I

(01:19:12):
will almost never choose a movie that is about an
antagonistic female relationship, because even though they do exist, in
the world. I far prefer to see, you know, if
there's a story about an older, more distinguished, successful woman
taking a younger woman under her wing and being her mentor,
I would rather see that story play out that they like,

(01:19:35):
have a great relationship and they conquer the world and
take down the patriarchy together. And I just like I
wish for more stories like that. Um, But I do,
of course, I see a lot of value in this story.
I think it explores interesting themes, and I think that
all the female characters are really interesting and far more
fleshed out than we see in more contemporary movies, which um,

(01:20:00):
you wouldn't necessarily expect. But I think that just between
the the examination of Margot and her insecurities about aging,
I do think that could have been explored a little
bit more fully in terms of like why is she
insecure about aging? Why do women end up in these competitive,

(01:20:21):
antagonistic relationships. But I think it does a fairly good
job for a movie, you know, written and made in
ninety But there's a lot to love about this and
find very interesting and compelling. I'll give it like a
three nipples. I think, Um, of course, it's an extreme
I don't you know they didn't let non white people

(01:20:43):
be in movies back then, and if they did, they
were in the most horrific trophy stereotypical, reductive roles imaginable.
And this movie just erases people of color altogether. Yeah,
it's probably better that there were no people of color
in this movie, right, because they would not have been
treated respectfully in any know, it would have made it
so much worse. But you know, I think it does

(01:21:05):
by today's standards, I think this movie holds up pretty magnificently. Um,
it's not without his issues. And then also just like
the weird message of like, yes, women can be strong
and awesome and great, and they shouldn't be antagonistic toward
each other. But also a woman isn't a woman unless
she's in a heteronormative relationship with a man and married

(01:21:28):
to him. So that feels a little bit like a
conflicting message. But overall, yeah, I think three nipples. I'll
give two to Bertie and I'll give one to Bettie Davis.
I'm gonna give this, Uh, I want to give it
three point seven five. I guess I'll go three point
I don't know, I want, I wanna yeah. I I

(01:21:50):
also like, you know, I'm sure I have blind spots
with this movie because I love it so much, But
I just I think, especially for its time, Okay, I
think with the context, given it's time, I'm going to
give it three point seven five because there is, like
I do I agree that, um, the like implication that uh,
Margot's better off as a wife than as an actor.

(01:22:13):
But but it's also not that sim I don't know.
I I think that there's so many different kinds of
women in this My main issue with the movie, I
think is that it's not I mean, Eve is the
clear cut villain, and it's not the system that they're
inside of, but that is so inherent to the movie
that it's hard to take yourself out of it. I

(01:22:33):
just think that, I mean, this movie is about women
in a way that for the most part and not
but for the most part, is not condescending to their needs, wants, desires,
or relationships with anyone around them. I just, Oh, Betty
Davis is so amazing. I do wish that it examined

(01:22:56):
the aging more than just this is how women feel,
and not examine a why do women feel it this way? Um?
But just the performances are so good, and the relationships
between women are so like they're they're more detailed than
just like women pulling each other's hair for two hours.
There's more like I just I really like it. So

(01:23:16):
I'll go three point seven five. Maybe that's too nice,
give two to Bertie, uh one to Eve and uh
point seven five to Margo. I'm gonna go out out
and give it four full nipples, do it? See? I
think something that we might want to do, Jamie for
like really old movies like this is like do sort

(01:23:37):
of like an adjusted for inflation nipple rating, where like
if we were doing this podcast in like nineteen fifty
and like this movie came out, it would be like, wow,
five nipples across the board. But like, obviously this movie
made seventy years ago. I will I will also say
this this is this is one of those movies where
you're like, oh, this is like a play. Like this

(01:23:59):
is just like a play. There's nothing visually that exciting
about it. It's it looks great, but it's really just
like you watch this movie for the acting and for
the writing, Like there's nothing going on visually that is
you know that that exciting, you know even for the time,
you know, even just differ inflation. This is a fucking talkie,
you know. Uh, so you gotta you gotta sit down,

(01:24:20):
you gotta be ready for like you know, there aren't
they're on a lot of like fist fights or action
sequences or anything in this movie. No, no big gags
like that. I think you got to go into that
with that mentality to enjoy it for sure. Who who
would you like to give your four nipples to one
to every drink that Margot had on the bumpy ride night? Perfect? Amazing?

(01:24:47):
Uh Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us
for this incredible discussion. It's been a delight. Thank you
for letting me talk about all about Eve for so long.
This made my day. I of talking about this movie,
I know, and I feel like I'm like, did we
even cover everything? I feel like there's it's there's so
many layers, are so much. Yeah, I feel like we

(01:25:09):
kind of only scratch the surface. But thank you so
much for being here, Sorrow. Where can people follow your stuff?
Follow you online? All that good stuff? Uh? You can
go to my website which is hey sorry June dot
com and you can sign up for an email list
which is a thing that I will do if people
sign up for it. It's not a thing, but I

(01:25:29):
don't know social media anymore, and I don't know what
to do. I mean, that's the ultimate act of self love. Yes,
for the best. Yeah, you can. You can go to UM.
If you are on social media, please follow means TV
sometimes it means Underscore TV. It is a streaming network
and YouTube channel that I make videos for. And I'm
going to have a series come out in a couple

(01:25:50):
of months that I'm really excited about. Awesome, Only Jamie's
in one. Yeah. Yeah, check that out. Everybody check it out.
He I'm excited. Yeah, Jamie's gonna be in an episode. Yeah.
I can't believe I forgot that first. We've been in
here for so long. There was no life before this,
It's true. Yeah, honestly, Um, it feels like one million

(01:26:10):
years ago that we shot it. All right, Well, thanks
for getting on the phone with me. Guys. This is like,
you know, some much needed social I'm sure you can tell. Yeah,
thank you so much for having me. Of course, UM
come back anytime we need to discuss more older movies.

(01:26:32):
You can follow us on social media at Spechtel Cast.
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(01:26:56):
the Matreon if you're able. It's true, you can get
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lot of fun stuff in the coming months on the
matrion if you want to join us. And uh we
we love you so much. I hope this has been
a sufficiently bumpy podcast. Yeah, hey, everyone, unfastened your seatbelts
because the Bumpy podcast is over. Bye bye,

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