Aquaman with Ali Nahdee

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the bel Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin,
you don't tell me how to captain. I don't tell

(00:22):
you how to pirate or something? Oh okay, oh like
the beginning of the movie. Yeah, like like that one
character said, Oh, I wanted to do the thing where
Patrick Wilson says, like you will call me ocean master?
Like that would have been better that just I think
is imprinted on my mind for you know. Welcome to

(00:43):
the Bechtel Cast. They're not all hits right at the top.
Sometimes you gotta just get into it and it takes
a little time. I'm going to find our groove. But welcome.
My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante,
and this is our show in which we examine movies
through an inter sectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test

(01:03):
just very much as a jumping off point. But what
is it, Jamie, Oh, the Bechtel test or the movie.
I'll say both. I'll do both. We're doing. We're doing
Aquaman today, movie from James one one of my faves.
I love watching interviews with James Wan. And this isn't
passing the Bechtel test. And here's why. The Bechtels test

(01:24):
is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. There's many different versions
of it. Here's the one we use. We require that
two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to
each other about something other than a man for two
lines of dialogue. There are so many three hour movies

(01:47):
that don't pass this simple metric, and this movie was
almost one of them. But we'll get there later. But
recovering Aquaman and uh, i'm I'm I'm very excited to
discuss this movie particular, really because we're bringing back one
of the greats we sure are. Our guest is Bi
racial Anisha Nabe, founder of the A La Test. You

(02:09):
remember her from our episode on Frozen two. It's Ali Nady. Hi,
Hello and welcome back. Thank you for invited me back.
I was so happy when I got your email and
I was just like, yes, pumped about this, Oh my gosh.
And you have brought us Aquaman. Tell us about your

(02:30):
relationship with this movie. Okay, So going a little bit
earlier than that, when you reached out to me, I
was like really struggling with a movie to talk about.
You know, I'm like, oh, man, because you know, Native people,
you know, we're not a monolith. You know, we come
from different cultures, different you know, parts of the country,

(02:52):
different parts of the continent. So I'm like, okay, so
there's a bunch of movies I wanted to talk about,
but I don't belong to those specific groups. Maybe someone
from those groups should be the one talking about it.
And then I wanted to talk about Avatar, but I'm like,
you know, maybe not for Thanksgiving, you know, maybe not

(03:15):
for Thanksgiving, but um yeah. So I really struggled, and
I was really thinking about it. And then finally Aquaman.
You know, I realized that even if it's not specifically
Polynesian or Hawaiian, you know, he is American, he is indigenous,
and he's biracial, and so am I. And um that

(03:37):
was the last film that I ever saw in a
theater with my mom. So yeah, so there's gonna be
a lot of moments I apologize in advance. I'm gonna
cry probably a couple of times. And uh yeah, like
this movie, ever since it came out, ever since I
saw it with Mom, really spoke to me as someone

(03:58):
who is biracial, as someone whose mother is white and
whose father is Indigenous, and it really I felt represented
in a way even if I wasn't Polynesian in Hawaiian.
You know it really, it really did tug at my
heart strings. And I felt kind of silly like saying
that just because it is a goofy superhero movie that

(04:22):
may or may not be that good. But I had
a fun time. Oh, I had a last But I
mean everyone deserves to be represented and seen in the
whole spectrum of movies, whether they're goofy superhero movies that
perhaps have plots that are messy. I mean, thank you

(04:42):
for sharing that, Ali, I mean with that context in particular,
like of course this is a special movie to you,
and like it's I don't know, I was I had
not seen this movie. I think I just generally I
usually wait on superhero movies because I guess I don't
I guess just not seeing them in theaters because I
feel like everyone knows something that I don't and I'm like,

(05:03):
I can't hang and they're gonna be mad at me.
But I really I thought this was it was perhaps
a bit long, but I I love James Wand's work,
and I was very like, kind of surprised and impressed,
having very very little understanding of Aquaman other than knowing
him as like the goofy superhero because he is a

(05:25):
fish um. But but outside of that, I didn't know anything.
And I thought that the way that the themes that
were kind of chosen for this this Aquaman story where
was really cool and most of them worked really effectively,
and for me, canonically, Patrick Wilson and Nicole Kidman wore
the same wig for the whole movie, and that was

(05:48):
awesome too. So yeah, I'm a I I think I'm
a fan of this movie. Yeah, I think I am. Caitlin.
Oh gosh, well, I saw it not in theaters, but
I did see it on a plane. I could plane
movie like nine months a year after it had come out,
because enough by then enough people had seen it and
I had heard I had heard the reviews, which were,

(06:11):
I feel like, pretty mixed and still are as far
as like, and I was Admittedly, when I first saw it,
I was like, you know, the means on sand is
is busy James won the j one. Yeah, when I
first saw the action scene, I was like, oh, that's interesting.

(06:31):
I was having a lot of sensory overload throughout the um.
But then when we reached out to you, Ali, so
this is our quote unquote Thanksgiving episode in the sense
that we are releasing it on the day that a
lot of Americans observed Thanksgiving. But we wanted to showcase

(06:51):
an indigenous movie or you know, a movie by indigenous filmmakers,
or a movie that has some Indigenous ties to it.
And then we reached out to U Eli. And then
when you came back to us with Aquaman, and I
was like, oh, right, it didn't really occur to me
that this would be like considered an indigenous movie. And
then you spoke a little bit about it, and I
was like, oh, yes, of course, and I knew that

(07:13):
you would like bring this really great perspective that would
give me a better appreciation for the movie, which like
it already has. And I know that are like conversation
Will and like, yeah, I still think about the Fresen
two episode all the time. Because I feel like that
might be like possibly the most that I've been like
mind blown and swede on a movie that I was

(07:36):
not at all expecting to see very much in in
the course of an episode, Like I don't know, I
think about it often. I'm really touched. I'm really glad
that you guys like that and that my insight so much. Yeah, yeah,
of course. Yeah. And um, even going with Aquaman, like again,
I had like a lot of turmoil because I'm not

(07:57):
you know, Hawaiian and I'm not Maudy like um Tamira
Morrison is the actor who plays his dad. He's Maudi,
which is indigenous to New Zealand. And Um, it's a
very important distinction that Native Hawaiians, while they are indigenous,
they are not Native American. That is a big one,

(08:19):
you know, like a lot of people try to lump
them all in because we're indigenous and it's it's not
their Polynesian. They are very adamant that, you know, they
are not American, you know, but still you know, like
it's still indigenous. And I felt more comfortable talking about
this movie just because it isn't like Lelo and Stitch

(08:41):
or Once We're Warriors where it is very distinctly a
Hawaiian film, a Hawaiian culture, or a Maudi film and
Maudi culture, you know, it takes place a main so
and um, you know, like even though Aquaman's design in
the movie movie is very distinctly you know, Polynesian, you know,

(09:03):
with the tattoos and he speaks um. I think he
says a couple of lines of dialogue that are in Maudi.
That's what I was seeing just in the in the
captions of the movie. But he um. Those actors could
have been played by anybody, really, I mean, they could
have been black, they could have been any race. And
the fact that it is indigenous, like brought this entire

(09:28):
perspective that really connected. Even if I'm not from those islands.
So you know, I feel like I'm kind of in
a safe gray area, you know, I don't want to
feel like I'm talking over anybody. But it did speak
to me. And when I did a lot of research
for the movie, I saw that it spoke to a
lot of biracial people just across the board. So right,

(09:50):
and I mean you bring up an interesting point where
some of the characters are indigenous, Aquaman is biracial, and
that's acknowledged in the movie, but it's it doesn't become
this thing where like so much of his identity is like, oh,
I'm so torn and look at me being the victim
of racism all the time and stuff like that. It's

(10:11):
more about like his identity is just normalized within the
context of the world he's living in, which and like
you said, he could have been played by any actor
of any color in a way that again just like
normalizes his existence in the world, which is like what
we're trying to move toward when it comes to representation.

(10:34):
So that was something I really appreciated about it. Yeah,
and I mean I just I love Jason Momoa, and like,
you can't not love Jason Momoa as of this recording.
I feel like we always have to be like yeah
as at this time, No, but um, he's great and
I feel like I really and we'll get into this too,
but uh, going off of what you were just saying, Caitlin,

(10:55):
I really was touched by how like thoughtful Aquaman was
as a character and how he was like I mean
not you know whatever. Every superhero has to be emotionally
stunted if they're a man without fail like that's just

(11:16):
the law. But I thought, I felt I feel like,
you know, I'm trying to think of a specific example,
but I feel like there's a lot of superhero movies
where the like male hero like doesn't have feelings or
like I don't emote, blah blah blah. And Aquaman is
like struggling with his you know, finding his place in
the world and trying to figure out where he fits.

(11:37):
But he like talks about it with people and like
talks about like even when he there's that scene, um
when they're on the boat, Um, Aquaman and Mara are
on the boat and he is talking about how he
killed or was the what is the pirate character's name,

(11:58):
David David. I think it's his name. I was like,
what's his name because I thought it was like a
superhero name, and I'm like, David David slash Manta. Yeah, yeah.
But he's talking about how he feels like guilty for
killing Manta's father, and I was like, I feel like
you don't get those moments from superheroes very often. And

(12:19):
then they have a discussion about his role in the
world and where he wants to be. There was actually
there was a lot of like scenes between Mira and
Aquaman that we're reminding me of like Simba and Nala
in the second act of The Lion King where she
like shows up and she's like, you have to be king,
and he's like, that's that's not my life anymore. And

(12:42):
then eventually obviously that is a great point, Damie, thank
you so much. Women be telling men they have to
be the gang. It's just mean, it's a trope at
this point. Um, I'm so excited to get more into
the discussion. Let's be kept the movie and then we'll
get into it. Okay. So we open on Aquaman's mom

(13:08):
and dad meeting in. His mom is Atlanta played by
Nicole Kidman. She is the Queen of Atlantis who fled
to land to escape and arranged marriage. His dad is
a human man named Tom played by Tamura Morrison, who
is a lighthouse keeper. He's a lighthousekeeper. That is high.

(13:31):
That's really hot, that he's a lighthouse keeper. He is
really hot period and anything true. He's really underlated to
be a lighthouse keeper. He's hot, but it doesn't hurt.
He's also been the voice of Boba Fette for like
nearly twenty years, I want to say, yeah, it was
Django Fett and Clone Wars and that our Clone Wars

(13:52):
attack the Clones. And then he's Mr Fette in some
capacity and has been for a while. He's back in
the Mandalorian and he's doing the book about the only
time I have never liked him was in Once Her
Warriors because he's like violently abusive in that movie, and
it's like, ah, it's hard, like get a Maudie guest

(14:12):
on the show to talk about it because it's good,
but it is like I almost hated him. Thank god
he made this movie because I love him again. But yeah,
this one he's at he's being a good dad in
a lighthouse and I love that. So Atlanta and Tom
fall in love and they have a baby named Arthur.

(14:33):
And then when Arthur is a small child, or vas
the king of Atlantis or one of the kings, because
you find out there several kings who Atlanta was arranged
to be married to, he sends soldiers to capture Atlanta
and bring her back, and she realizes that she has
to return to Atlantis. I kept writing down Atlanta in

(14:54):
my notes, so if I accidentally say Atlanta to refer
to either Atlantis or Atlanta. With my accent, I'm going
to call him Accaman at least twenty million times, so
apologies to everyone. Yeah, I'm gonna say the wrong names
all the time. So she kind of surrenders and returns
to Atlantis in order to keep Tom and Arthur safe.

(15:17):
I'm I'm such a fool. I was like, Wow, I
can't believe the call given did this movie for two minutes?
That's so interesting? But then I was like oh, and
then later I was like, oh, right, right, she wouldn't
do that. That wouldn't make sense. She does say that
one day she will return, which is foreshadowing that's a plant.
Can I just talk about like that whole introduction to

(15:39):
the movie, because you know, Okay, I'm gonna try to
keep it together. So my um my mom and I
when we went and saw this movie, I had just
moved home from Finland. I was going through divorce, and
she had pay creatic cancer and was just about to
go into receiving treatment for that. So, uh so watching

(16:04):
this movie with her like right next to me, mhm,
she um you know, it was kind of foreshadowing things
that not only that I was going to have to
deal with I'm I'm sorry, no, no, no, please take

(16:25):
your time. But you know, also but also things that
my dad was going to be dealing with, because because
you want to be hopeful, and you want to be
hopeful what you know, you know that that's not how
it's going to be, you know, in the end, and um,

(16:48):
her absence and the movie, you know, like it touches
the characters so much. You know, like when he goes
down to the dock every morning morning, yeah, you know,
because she says that, you know, we'll be together again
and she'll see again and she'll yeah, she'll she's like,
I'll meet you here one day. And then of course Arthur,

(17:08):
you know, like not having his mother and his life
is damaging, you know, like it's it's painful, and especially
like with this extra layer with racism and separation from
your culture and not really belonging to that culture, you know,
especially not fully belonging to a culture of someone that

(17:29):
you love on top of that, you know, it's, uh yeah,
it gets to you, you know when you're watching this
as this biracial kid, um kid, you know, I was
like thirty, but you know, but you know, watching it
and uh yeah, just kind of sitting there in the
theater with mom and watching this and kind of know

(17:50):
whing you know, in the back of your head, what's
going to happen? And uh, the whole introch of the
movie first ten minutes of Aquaman. I'm a bad like this, um,
but thankfully, thankfully the movie is a lot more fun
than uh than this. The tone, the tone shifts a
bit from that point onward, but it is, I mean,

(18:14):
it is like it's really beautifully done, like that that
scene of them, oh for sure, because they do. They
look just like my parents. I mean, it totally looks
like my parents. So that wasn't lost on me. And yeah,
and I love I love that Aquaman loves his dad,

(18:36):
you know, especially especially you know, like as someone taking
care of my dad, you know, as someone taking care
of your dad, you know, by yourself. Like no, I'm
not really by myself, like my sister's helped too, but
you know, I I live with him, and I take
care of them and make sure that you know, the

(18:58):
house is taken care of and that he's taking as
me to send and stuff, you know, and seeing Aquaman's
relationship with his father, as you know, you're his son,
but you're also his best friend and you're also his protector.
You know. It's uh yeah, yeah, I do want to
talk about their relationship more because I feel like that's

(19:18):
one of the big strengths of the movie. It's I
mean then just like how it's so funny because it's
like I feel like that like is a testament to
the actors, Like you don't actually spend a lot of
time with Aquaman and his dad, but when you do,
it's you just like feel it. And his dad is
so like awesome, yeah good and supportive, and you know,

(19:42):
Aquaman is like, I'm not Aquaman and his dad's like,
oh good, it's awesome. Like and again that that feels
like an outlier in a superhero movie where it like
someone who's like very I mean, even though Arthur can't
me with his mom for the majority of his life,

(20:02):
she's he's still very connected to her and thinks well
of her. I don't know, it's just I was like,
the superhero loves his parents so much and it's so nice.
And then there's Patrick Wilson. Oh man, this guy, this asshole,
the character, not the actor, the actor. Yeah, he's about

(20:26):
to show up before we see him, though we briefly
see Arthur a few years later on a school trip
to the aquarium with the two worst bullies ever in
any movie ever, Brutle. That was so much to me,
like the scene from the first Harry Potter movie where
like he's talking to the snake through the glass, except

(20:47):
Arthur's talking to some sharks or something, and then there's
like two Dudley's behind him trying to bully him, and
they're like so much older than he is, which is
he looks like he's about like four and they're like
they're like two ft taller than him. I'm just like
James Wands fanning out here, but I feel like things
that happen in James wand movies just happened like weirdly

(21:09):
at an eleven sometimes for no reason at all, And
I feel like that bullying moment, I'm like, why is
this so intense and why are the bullies so old?
And like what is happening? Um? But then it or
like the moment where it's like whatever, Mira and Aquamand
almost kissed and then there's an explosion like next to
their heads and you're like, Mr Wand that was not necessary,

(21:32):
But I'm glad you did it. There's like twenty explosions
in this movie that happened out of nowhere, and I'm like,
why again, it's quite jarring. He's just like, we have
the budget, let's do it. The important thing we learned
from the scene is that Aquaman is able to communicate
with marine life. Then we cut to him as an adult.

(21:54):
He's now Jason Momoa. He's already a badass superhero. We
see this sequence where he stops this pirate attack against
a Russian submarine, and the main pirate is David a
k a. Black Manta, who is not quite Black Manta yet,
but he's like kind of having his origin story in
the background, fully having his origin story. There's a Shakespearean monologue,

(22:19):
there's a dramatic explosion death like yes, yes, yes, yeah.
He's played by yah Yah abdul Mateen. The second so
Manta now has a vendetta against Aquaman because Manta's dad
dies during this attack and Manta blames Aquaman. I felt
so bad for him, like I legit. I mean, like

(22:42):
even watching it, I'm like, oh man, that was mean
as hell. Yeah, because he's like asked the sea for mercy.
But then yeah, Aquaman does feel like guilty about it later,
so I'm glad he does, because I felt bad that
was brutal. Like I know that they're bad guys, and
I know that they like killed in us at people
and they're stealing ship and I'm like, man, the dude

(23:03):
is begging you to save his dad. Oh my god,
I don't know if I could say no, I take
him to jail, which I mean, honestly makes for an
interesting superhero because a lot of superheroes are so morally
pure and good that it kind of gets boring. Boring.
So for Aquaman to be like, no, dude, see uh

(23:25):
later and then and then for him to like experience
like which is a pretty human thing to do. He's
like acting in sort of the you know, the emotion
of the moment, and then later he has like a
conflicting emotion about it, and yeah, that's just all very
human stuff. My feeling of that, Yeah, that sequence I thought,
especially like thinking about it when it comes up again
later in the movie, because I wasn't sure if it

(23:46):
was like when that was going to come back. It
was like, I feel like he was doing kind of
like almost like a the way that Arnold Schwarzenegger would
handle an action scene where it's like quip, shoot, murder kill,
but then we as the audience have to stay in
that scene and like, watch how it affects the people
who like the cool superhero leaves behind. And oh that

(24:07):
that scene of like David climbing like the ladder shot,
I was like, Oh, it's so like, it's so sad.
And I was like, I think that that probably happens
in action movies and superhero movies all the time, but
the movie doesn't be like, and we're gonna stay here too,
just so you can see how upset these pirates are.

(24:27):
Like that was good though, because I feel like that
legit like solidified him as a good villain with a
good reason to hate. He's strongly motivated. Yeah, oh my god.
Yeah that scene at the mid credit scene at the
end with him in Randall Park, I was like, all right,
I'm I guess I'm excited for the next one. Let's go. Yeah.

(24:48):
I feel like really bad for him though. Um. On
another note, just because this movie it's so long, but
it's it's so long, but it has so much stuf
in it, so there's so much lower there's so many flashbacks,
so much history, so much legend, and all of it
is awesome, but it's like they only really have time

(25:10):
for one bad guy, and this movie has too, so
he kind of halfway through gets kicked out, you know, like,
oh the way, Black Manta, I'm doing other cool things.
It's like they should have just saved him for the
second movie or this one, and then did something with
the worm later. But I don't know. It's like I
feel like he deserved a lot better. Every time he's

(25:33):
in there, he's great, but it's like you deserved a
little bit more. Give him more space, for sure. Yeah,
I felt the same way. I hope that he's the
like main I mean, I'm hoping that that mid credit
scene sets him up as like the character in the
second movie. I hope. I hope so too. Yeah, um,
let's take a quick break right here and then we
will come right back and we're back. So meanwhile, underwater

(26:03):
in Atlantis, there are several different kingdoms. King Orm that's
Patrick Wilson, is the king of one of them. He
is Aquaman's half brother. Because Queen Atlanta is their mother,
they obviously have different fathers. His right hand man is Volco. Okay,

(26:26):
Willem Dafoe, which he keeps calling him his vizier, which
I've only heard that word applied to jaffar. Same, So
I was like, oh, okay, so William Dafoe is the
Jaffar of this palace, except a good guy and not
a villain. He's nice Jaffar. Also, it didn't occur to

(26:46):
me to like halfway through the movie that Willem Dafoe
is I feel like one of the few people who's
in the m c U and the d C you
as like super different characters. He's a villain in the
m c U. It's also weird to see William Dafoe
not as a villain. Yeah, so that's quite something. Yeah.
I think the only time he played like a hero

(27:08):
or otherwise protagonist was in Platoon. Oh sure, and let's
not forget the Last Temptation of Christ or whatever the
Jesus later really Jesus famously a hero. Yeah there, And
this is another I mean, I guess William Dafoe doesn't
get near the lighthouse in this movie, but it's another
movie with the lighthouse that he's in. Wow. Wow, good point, Jamie,

(27:31):
thank you, thank you. That's why they paid me the
big blocks. Um. So, King Orm is trying to unite
at least four of the seven kingdoms so that he
can become Ocean Master and legally declare war against the
surface dwellers at which he wants to do because he

(27:54):
thinks humans are going to be the demise of Atlantis
and everyone living in Wonder, which we are because we
are destroying our oceans. Um, I don't even think that's preachy,
Like you know how in like fern Gully and stuff
like that, Like the environmentalist issue kind of feels a
little too on the nose. It's like, I mean that's

(28:14):
kind of valid. Man, We are destroying the ocean, and
the ocean is massive and vast, and we're sucking it
all up. So yeah, that's another reason I'm really psyched
on the Randall Park character because it seems like he's
gonna like he's like an environmentalist, Like he's going to
bring all of that into the next movie as well. Yeah.
I mean, like Patrick Wilson obviously, big old evil villain

(28:38):
like spouting some of the nastiest rhetoric you could imagine
in this movie. But humans are destroying the ocean. I mean,
but then Nicole Kidman kind of shows up the end
and she's like, no, they're not. It's like, that's we
are who we are. I do like when a villain
is motivated in such a way that is compelling or

(28:59):
that like the odd it's gonna understand where they're coming from,
even if we don't agree with like the execution of
their plan or whatever it is, but like would be
deeply fun character. But yeah, we're like, yeah, you're not wrong.
Humans are destroying all of the environment. Okay, we're back
on land. This Atlantean woman, Mara played by Amber Heard,

(29:21):
she comes to the surface to relay all of this
information to Aquaman and she's like, we need your help.
We need to stop Orm again. Nala basically being like,
you gotta come and be our king because he is
the rightful heir to the throne because he's the firstborn
son of Atlanta. And that's the moment you realize, Oh,

(29:42):
Jason Momoa, even though he's like six years younger than
Patrick Wilson, is supposed to be older than Orm's character.
He's taller and that equals older. And then also Nicole
Kiman is supposed to be playing Patrick Wilson's mother, she's
like seven years older because don't think too hard about it,
and she's only twelve years older than Jason Momoa. And yeah,

(30:04):
I'm like, okay, you did not cast an age appropriate
actor to play their mother. Well, I don't know what
kind of like packed that Patrick Wilson and James Wan have,
but Patrick Wilson has to be in all of his
movies or except for Malignant, But Patrick Wilson isn't in
like literally all of James Want's movies. So that's I
think why he's here. Something interesting that, you know, upon

(30:27):
watching Aquaman uh several times was um or you know, like,
I don't know if he's a good villain, but the
interesting thing about him is that there's room for like
complexity because you know, he benefits from a society and
a system that gives him power, of course, and it's

(30:51):
interesting that he doesn't hate his dad for killing his mother.
You know, there's never a moment where it's like Atlantis
was sucking wrong for what they did to my mom.
This is bullshit because it's easier to blame it on Aquaman,
like if it wasn't for you, and it wasn't for
your dad, my mom would still be alive, and this

(31:12):
is your fault, which goes into like the racial implications too,
because he's totally an ocean colonizer, like an ocean supremacist,
like he is started by the end of the movie,
he's like spouting pure blood like he's He's like, they
go all the way with that characters. Yeah politics, Yeah,

(31:34):
I noticed that as well, and like contrasting that with
how Aquaman feels of like I sort of assumed just
based on having seen superhero movies. I was like, Okay,
Aquaman is going to blame himself for what happened to
his mother, and then that's the journey of like it
wasn't all my fault, but it's like it's more detailed

(31:56):
than that. And I really liked that scene with Aquaman, mean,
with will of Dafoe and he's saying like the opposite
of what Orma is saying. He's like he's furious at
the system that allowed that to happen to his mother,
and I just feel like, yeah, it speaks to like
how different their environments were and how different their upbringings were,
where like Patrick Wilson was raised by a fascist and

(32:19):
you know, Aquaman was raised by a very kind lighthouse keeper,
and it makes a difference. Patrick Wilson is white, and
because that's the other thing, Like, um, with Aquaman, there's
never like a line or anything in the movie where
you know, he'd be like, well, you think you're special.
White people treat me like shit all the time on land.

(32:40):
You guys aren't any different. Blah blah blah, you know
what I mean. And it's you know, there's never a
line of dialogue like that. But for the biracial people
in the room watching this, it's like, oh, yeah, of
course he would think that way, you know. And of
course Aquaman is going to be thinking, you know, oh,
it's the fucking system. You know, it's Atlantis and these

(33:01):
racist as white mermaids that killed my mom for loving
a brown man like human. But the human in this
specific example is indigenous. And the other guys like, no,
it's you. So that's interesting, Like it's not subtle. I
wouldn't say that it was subtle. I think it's just

(33:23):
apparent and just kind of treated like duh, if you
get it, you get it. Yeah, the metaphor is is
pretty clear. That's another thing. One more thing. Sorry, but like, um,
It was interesting to me because as awesome as like
Polynesian Mermaids would totally be, I like that the Atlanteans

(33:44):
are white, I guess, and the humans are indigenous, like
at least in this story, because it could have been
so easy, like because I've seen this so many other
times where it's flipped where it's like, oh, well, I'm
the outcast and I'm the allusion and the allegory for racism,

(34:05):
even though I'm Harry Potter and super white, or I'm
Sabrina Spellman and I'm white and they're calling me half breed.
But you know, it's like, no, you're not the allusion
to racism. It's like the racism is present, but it's
kind of taken the backseat to species. I guess I
didn't connected that, but yeah, it's like that it's not

(34:27):
the like one to one mothering narrative that we've seen
a ton of times, and I think that gives it
a level of sincerity too, as far as like the allegory,
because it could have been, you know, takeaway Atlantis and everything.
It could have been another story about racism and mixed
ethnicity and all this other stuff. But you know, it's

(34:48):
like Okay, so it's gonna be about this with the
Mermaid politics, who just so happens to have a biracial
Polynesian indigenous actor, And I'm like, okay, that's better a
little bit more sincere, Yeah, I appreciate that. Um. Okay,
So let's see. Mara has shown up and she's like, yeah, Aquaman,

(35:11):
you gotta come be King, you gotta stop orm Um.
And she also tells him about this sacred trident that
had once belonged to King at Land that if he
can find he can use it to dethrone arm and
he's like, no, that trident's just a myth. Then orm

(35:31):
causes this huge tidal wave that destroys this coastal town
and nearly kills Aquaman's dad. It sends a lot of
trash that had been dumped in the ocean back onto
Land as sort of like a warning from orm. So
this causes Aquaman to agree to accompany Mera and help

(35:51):
her stop arm. So they go to Atlantis and meet
up with Volco, who, by the way, we learned through
flashbacks that throughout Arthur's childhood, Vocal has been training him
basically how to be Aquaman, like be this magnificent fighter
and teaching him how like you know, nice Jaffar, nice Jafar.

(36:11):
You you can breathe underwater, you can see underwater, you
can talk underwater, all this stuff. So he's been like
training Aquaman his whole life. It is so fun to
see scenes of Willem Dafoe being so nice, Like it's
just like wow, where that like scene where they jump
off the cliff and he's like, you was see something cool?
Of like this vibe is unfamiliar to me. This is nice,

(36:34):
so good. I love that scene. One of my favorite
shots in the movie is when they're sitting on like
the edge of like that cliff under the water and
just watching all the mantas like swim by. Yeah. Like
this movie is so gorgeous in theaters, Like just seeing
it on a big screen was just a treat. Another thing.
But what's his name? Volco? Yeah? Yeah, okay, So how

(36:58):
do I tie this in? Let's um, So, once upon
a time in the United States, it was illegal for
Native Americans to practice our religion, our culture, you know,
residential schools and just government policy like you could not
be Native and if you did have anything as far

(37:20):
as like a rattle a drum, sweet grass stage, you know,
anything like that. If you were caught practicing and praying,
you know, you could go to jail for it. You
could be imprisoned for it. So this part of the movie,
again it's subtle, but you know, when you're Native and
you're watching it, you know, it's kind of clicks. It's
like he's learning about his culture in secret because they

(37:43):
don't want him to know about how to be Atlantean.
It's like, you're a human and we don't want you
here anyway. But it's like learning about that element of
who you are when you're disconnected from it, and learning
about the history and the customs and how to fight
and how to use your abilities. I mean, in this movie,

(38:03):
it's talking to fish and swimming and finding out who
you are. But still it's like finding out this wonderful
part of your family and your history and the culture
that you belong to. And there's just a small observation.
I just really I really like that totally layers this

(38:25):
movie's I was like, let's we start talking to Ali.
I'm going to be fully like this is the greatest
movie ever made, you know what, much like the Ocean,
this movie is deep it can be, and sometimes it's shallow, shallow,
just like the ocean. Okay, so let's see so Volco.
They meet up with Volco and then he has a

(38:48):
clue about the final resting place of this sacred trident.
But before they can do anything about it, Aquaman is
captured and brought to Orm, who Aquaman then challenge is
to a duel, and the terms are that if Aquaman wins,
Orm will stop the war. If Orm wins, he's like, Aquaman,

(39:09):
you're over. So I guess he's gonna kill I'm not
sure exactly what fusing terms, which quickly becomes clear that
they really should have hashed out what the terms were well,
because because he's like, oh, you know, the war will
be over, and he's like, but if I win, you're over,

(39:30):
which is funny, so yeah, or this evil but sometimes
he's such a petty little asshole that it's almost like
it's the same like brain scratch that when you see
a succession character acting out where you're like, you're being
so silly right now. When he screams like I am
ocean Master, You're like, okay, are you You're not giving

(39:56):
me ocean master in that wig? I don't think so oh,
I love it. Right Here we get another quick flashback
where Vocal is training teenage Aquaman, and this is also
when Vocal reveals that his mother had died long ago
and that she was sacrificed by King or VA's, who

(40:19):
had gotten very jealous when he found out that she
had had another son with a human man. Okay, so
I feel just because of that detail, you know, that
he found out that she had a child with another person,
and that was enough, not even another person, but like human,

(40:39):
that was enough to execute her. And I mean, just
judging from the fact that she fled this arranged marriage
and spent years away, you know, out of the sea
and with this person, and that they came after her,
you know, um, I think it's kind of safe to
assume that or may or may not have been conceived

(41:01):
of rape. I think that's fair to assume that that
is definitely yeah, or at least like coerced into. Like
obviously she was forced to marry this person. But you know,
Mira's being in this arranged marriage as well, but she's
kind of you know, like, oh well whatever, you don't
have to love someone to marry them. It's a political thing.

(41:23):
But this very clearly was not the case with Atlanta,
and uh, I'm glad that they just kind of leave
that up in the air, you know where it's like, yeah,
this is possible. It doesn't need to be directly harped
on addressed and yeah, but it's it. I mean, that
is like unfortunately, yeah, very very conceivably true. And I

(41:46):
thought it was, I mean, just another I mean, in
this movie, it is interesting. Is written by two men,
one of whom is a former cop, so you know, uh,
former l ap D police detect of getting worse really amazing, cool,
cool and great. So I don't want to like repeatedly,

(42:07):
I'm like someone else in the room came up with
this idea, because I you won't see me handing it
to an l apt officer. But I did like with
Atlanta and Mira, two characters who are in who are
at different points in time, in virtually the same situation,
but dealing with it differently, And that was again just

(42:27):
more than I expected from a superhero movie with a
gigantic budget. I feel like, if you have to with
the you know, they're basically the same person, and you know,
Aquaman is like, wow, Mommy's girlfriend now. Life is wild,
you know. But but Mira and Atlanta, in spite of
how similar their predicament was, they think of the situation

(42:48):
and approach the situation very differently because they're different people.
And I hate that. I didn't expect the movie to
treat them as if they were different people, because I
feel like we've seen Mommy's girlfriend now so many times.
But I appreciated that at least they did that. Yeah,
And I think it's because, like Mara and Orm have

(43:10):
this conversation, it's like very brief where she's like, do
you think your mother would want to see her two
children kill each other? And it sounds like they grew
up together, like she must have known Atlanta when she
was younger, and she must have known Orm when she
was younger, And that's probably why she's a little bit
more chill about like, Okay, if I got to marry
my best friend, whatever, but you're wrong to marry this

(43:35):
fucking dork from school who at least she is it her. Okay,
So this big battle between Aquaman and Orm is about
to happen in like the Ring of Fire or whatever thing.
It's so big. It's this fight is so large So
they have this battle where kind of neither of them
end up winning because Orm is sort of incapacitated in

(43:58):
some way. And I think it's because of me to
understand that Mara uses her like water manipulation powers to
sort of like whatever, fuck him up a little bit,
and then it allows her and Aquaman to escape. Is
that what happens? Something like that? It's all I remember
was just the scoreboard where it's like, look at how

(44:18):
awesome Orm is and then look at the stupid drunk
native man who wants to fight him. Right, So I
feel like Mara is like we can talk about this
later too, But I feel like Mara is playing her
cards really well, where she's like effectively convincing Orm that
she's like his ally and yeah, like this freaking Aquaman

(44:41):
guy is such an imbecile or something like that. And
then she's really just like doing this to get away
from Orm because she realizes like what a scary tyrant
he is. Yeah, anyway, so this fight happens, Mara and
Aquaman escape, and then they head to the Sahara Desert
to follow this clue that will lead them to the

(45:03):
Lost Trident. As they enter the Sahara it just blasts
the worst cover of Total's Africa ever by people, and
it comes out of pitou is saying, oh my god,
I like blacked that out already somehow, that there's a
pit Bull song in this movie. It comes out of nowhere.
Because overall, like the soundtrack of the movie is pretty cool.

(45:25):
It kind of sounds like Tron Legacy or something. You know,
it's pitful, except for the end credits song where there's
a song where it's just like everything happens movies. I
also like that there. Yeah, this whole section of the movie.
I was like, this is like the not obviously the

(45:47):
same because they were all over the world, but I
was like, this is like the National Treasure section of
the movie where they're like collecting different things and they're like,
we need this, we need this, and that leads to
another clue, and that clue at least doing another clue. Yeah,
the scene where Jason Momoa is like and this statue
means this, this statue means that. I was like, whoa,
he's doing the He's doing the Benjamin Franklin cage thing. Yeah,

(46:14):
It's amazing how Aquaman becomes National Treasurer for like thirty
minutes as I was like, all right, sure. So they
go to the Sahara Desert. They find this like secret
stand chamber where they're able to play King Atlant's ancient message,
which then leads them to Italy. I think they're in
Italy somewhere that region, because there's like a Pinocchio joke

(46:40):
that is planted and paid off when they go to Italy.
For some reason, You're like, what's happening? Hilarious. I really
like that scene though in Sicily, just because earlier when
she takes Aquaman to Atlantis for the first time, and
I think I read in an interview where James wa
was talking about this how he wanted the audience to

(47:01):
like experience Atlantis the way Arthur does, you know, for
the very first time, and just the wonder and the
amazement of it when he's flying through and he's seeing
this metropolis under the ocean and all of this amazing,
beautiful things, you know, So that scene is amazing. And

(47:22):
then when he and Mirror are walking around the desert
and she's talking about people destroy our oceans, you don't
bow your garbage into our seas and blah blah blah,
and this is the worst place ever, and he's like, yeah,
but we've got you know, big mountains and beautiful forests
and big lakes. You know, I mean, like we've got
some stupid people running the place, but you know, like

(47:44):
the land is beautiful too, And she doesn't really like
pay that any attention until she's in Sicily and then
we see her, you know, experiencing Sicily for the first
time and seeing all the flowers and the fruits and
the people and that little girl at the fountain, and
she's just it was so good, unless she starts eating

(48:06):
roses and then she's like yum yum, Like this is strange.
It was good. I like that, but I don't know.
The movie has scenes that works so so well, and
it almost feels like a different movie because it's like
when it's excellent, it's excellent, and then when it's really
really clumsy, it's it's very clumsy all over the place. Yeah. Yeah,

(48:30):
so they're they're following this next clue, but then Black
Manta shows up, who has been absent for a while,
who has been absent for a while, but who has
also established this alliance with Orm, and so Orm is
like kind of making Manta do some of his bidding
and trying to get him to kill Aquaman Um. So

(48:50):
he shows up and attacks Aquaman and Mara. There's a
big fight sequence there. They eventually get away and head
towards the location of the trident, which is in this
kind of like underwater oasis cave place where surprise, guess
who's there, Queen Atlanta. He's going to cry again very soon.

(49:16):
I did not see that coming. I did not see
a coming. I thought, yeah, yeah, the audience and Aquaman
has everyone basically, everyone has been led to believe that
she died because she was sacrificed to the trenches, but
she managed to survive, and she's been like hiding and
living in you know, seclusion this whole time. So she

(49:38):
and Aquaman reunite. They have a nice tender moment, and
then Aquaman goes and gets the trident, which he's able
to do because he is the one true king. He
gives this whole kind of speech about how he's he
didn't come here because he thinks he's worthy. He's he
came here because like this is the only choice he

(49:58):
has to like save humanity basically, because he's also talking
to this giant fish creature who sounds like flotsam and
jetsam from The Little Mermaid whatever that was. I loved
that big scary fish. I was like, I watched that
scene twice because I was like, Oh, it's just this
this mean fish and that has like a really hard grip,

(50:22):
like and he was like, You're never gonna get this
trident from me. And then Aquaman is like, well if
I did, and he's like, oh, you can hear me.
And Aquaman is like yes, and he's like all right,
see if you can get it, and just like totally
neutralized threat in the space of like one kind of cute.
Jason Momoa's performance in that scene also was like I

(50:43):
just I just Jason Momo is so fun Like his
delivery in that scene where I don't know if maybe
maybe it was a choice, maybe he just like there
was scratch audio and he wasn't hearing the voice he
was responding to, but the scary flots of jets and fishes, Wait,
you can hear me, and yes, I can hear you,

(51:05):
and I can understand you. And it was just like, oh,
it's just so funny. I loved that scene. There are
two wonderful lines in the scene it's when Arthur's talking
to uh, his mom. He's saying, you know, he still
walks at the end of the dock every morning waiting
for you, which you know, ugly cry. But then um,

(51:29):
she says something. She's like, you need to be more
than just a king or whatever. And he's like, what
could be greater than a king? And she says a hero?
And I'm like, you know, that was the point where
I'm like, this is the indigenous representation that I really
just want for like little kids, you know what i mean, like,

(51:50):
you know, just a hero. You know, like I wonder
if that is how like because I used to work
at a gym for a little bit and you know,
would work with little kids, so one of the bonding
experiences between me and these kids would be superhero movies.
And just how much my black students loved Black Panther
so much, you know, like that was their hero. And

(52:12):
it's like Aquaman. When she said that line, I'm like,
this is what more than ever, I feel like the
little kids in the audience, you know, the little biracial kids,
the Native kids, the Hawaiian kids, you know, like they
don't need a king, they need a hero. And they
need someone who's gonna do these incredible things and who
look like them and are special and are you know, extraordinary.

(52:37):
And then when he's talking to the scary Cathulhu Monster
and she's telling them, you know you're not worthy and
blah blah blah, what makes you think that you're worthy?
And he just straight up tells her He's like, I came.
Let me read it, says I came to save my
home and the people that I love, the Trident is

(52:58):
their only hope. If that's not good enough, often, screw you.
I'm like, I love our King, Batman, who Batman? Who?
Wonder Woman? Who? Right? Which is like, again, such an
interesting deviation from so many superhero movies or so many
like I guess um like chosen one narratives where it's

(53:19):
like you have to prove your worth and you have
to like do the thing that proves like but in
a way that feels different from because he proves his
worth by like acknowledging that He's like, no, I'm not
any more worthy than anybody else. I'm just here in
this time of need, and I'm like I need to
take action against this TYRNT and like that's you know,

(53:43):
if that makes me worthy, then so be it, and
that is what ends up happening. But like I feel
like so many other chosen one narratives or I don't know,
it's just I really liked that about this where it's
just like he's like, no, I like, I'm not special.
I just like am here to help. And then it's
like cool, that makes you worthy. Hell yeah, but that
means you are special, like special. I was like, Jason,

(54:09):
don't be so humbul you obviously are going to get
the trident that it is. The other thing is like legit.
He he like saying, you know, like I know I'm
not worthy. I know I probably can't be king. I
know I'm probably not the best choice. I'm like, motherfucker,
You're fighting with Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman in
the previous movie, and you haven't mentioned that once, Like bro,

(54:32):
I would have thrown that in warm space. You're welcome,
Mr Humble. I always forget that because I just yea,
I don't have the correct brain for it. I'm like, oh, yeah,
he knows Batman, Superman, Yeah, those are his past. Yeah.
I didn't see Justice League, not the theatrical cut, nor
the Snyder cut, So I always forget that. So Aquaman

(54:55):
has already been introduced as a character into this cinematic
universe a year prior to this, I believe, because Justice
League was released theatrically in twenty seventeen, So he's already
existed in this universe as this character fighting alongside Yeah,
and I think chronologically that all happens before the events
of this teen Aquaman movie takes place too. Yeah, he's

(55:16):
already done all this like superhero ship and then now
he's like saving the world on his own. Uh. Yeah,
I always forget that because I skipped Justice Leave. It's
I'm sure that they sort of want you to forget that.
They don't want you to like hyper fixated on all
the cool ship because it kind of undercuts the story.
But I mean, I don't know the script did make

(55:36):
me forget. I just sort of assumed. I was like, well,
I guess he just hasn't met them yet, because like
you're saying, Ali, I'm like, I wouldn't shut up about it,
Like yeah, I was like, listen, orm you wouldn't have
an ocean if I hadn't saved the planet from Steppin Wolf.
So you're welcome Ocean Master. Yeah, Mr Ocean Master, how

(55:57):
do you like that? That Ocean Master line read really
killed me? It's like, God, how do you say that
with a straight face? Very funny? Wild? Okay, So there's
just a little bit of the story left. Uh, so
you know Aquaman getting the trident. Meanwhile, orm is launching
an attack against some of the other sea kingdoms because

(56:19):
I think he's trying to like gain control over them
so that he can launch this attack against the surface.
That whole thing. I was like totally understand what he's
trying to do. But then Aquaman shows up with the
trident to stop arm. There's another big battle. Aquaman and
may kiss at some point, um because she does have

(56:41):
to be his girlfriend. Not only like it comes out
of nowhere, but it's like, you know, it's Jason Momoa
and she could die in the next scene, so fucking
get him. But also I wonder if that's what kissing
Jason Momoa is like, where you just like the chaos
just kind of stops that there's like explosions and it's

(57:03):
just time stops. I mean, like sucking Lisa Bone, I
know it's like that every day. Could she come out
and confirm. Is that what it's like the kiss Aquaman? Yeah,
please let us know, Lisa. I also had that thought
that I was like, oh, if I kissed Jason Mamoa,
I probably would also feel like a whale just took
me away to some a second location afterwards, because a

(57:23):
whale just shows up and she's like, I gotta go,
and like later, I hope that that is the Jason
Mamma experience, that that a free Willie shows up and
it just takes you where you need to go. Afterwards,
so they're having the big battle, Aquaman eventually wins against Orm.
Atlanta shows up and she's like my two sons, and

(57:45):
then Aquaman shows Orm mercy. Orm is taken away as prisoner,
and then the people of Atlantis accept Aquaman as their
king a k a. King Arthur, which is also funny
it it makes you think. And then the movie ends
with Aquaman's mother and father reuniting on the dock and

(58:08):
having a beautiful kiss, and then we get some voice
over from Aquaman saying that their love that probably never
should have had, like you know, it wasn't supposed to happen, Uh,
it did happen and end up saving the world the end,
you cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, Cry cries so much.

(58:29):
Let's take a quick break and then we will come
right back to cry and discuss, and we're back where
would we like to begin? I mean, there's not a
ton ton ton of um. There are a few context
things that we should touch on before jumping back into

(58:51):
the story maybe, but the things that stuck out to
me was I did I was like God. The screenplay
ultimately was co written by a top uh so will
be what the fuck um co written with David Leslie
Johnson McGoldrick, which is a lot of names in a row.

(59:12):
We've also got a story by credit from Jeff john Yeah,
question Mark. Oh, I just I mean, most of this
crew seems to be like with the kind of the
outlier of Will bel I don't really know why why
he's here, and I kind of wish he wasn't. But um,
it seems like James One was allowed to kind of
bring his like team of people he usually collaborates with

(59:33):
to this movie, which is cool because it looks like
a James One movie and not like they just threw
all these DC who house people at him and he
didn't get to make the movie. He wanted that said
a lot of men, really male, heavy production, like top
level production stuff. Is all all guys, And are they

(59:54):
I know James one isn't white, but are the other writers?
Are they people of color? Are they? Uh? Let me
double check, but I do not believe. So, yeah, James
Won is Chinese Australian. Will Beal is a white cop. Uh. Yeah,
I was doing it. I was doing a quick Google

(01:00:14):
of everyone, and it is it is mostly white guys
at the top of this project. That's a little I
don't know, that's a little surprising, especially with all the
nuance that this film kind of has with the racism.
I know that like just tangentially that like these movies
are like there's writer's rooms that take place around these movies,

(01:00:34):
and those writers don't get credited. So I'm assuming, I
just I'm assuming that whatever goes right in this movie,
a white cop didn't write like he wrote all the
Nazi ship probably but yeah, yeah, he's like, oh orm,
I'll take orm. I got it. Like, but yeah, I
just want to igno and and and then also just

(01:00:54):
um for the five times this episode shout out James
Won because you gotta love him. He's and if you
and if you haven't really gone into the want of
verse he made. I never get like at another certain
people you think of and you're like, I'm so upset
at you for being so smart, so young and so like.

(01:01:16):
He made the Saw movie, the first Saw movie, when
he was like twenty five or something. It's ridiculous he
did so he did the conjuring he did in City
as he did like he did, he just did Malignant.
He's like forty three. I was like this man, and
he seems like such a sweetie pie. James. I wonder,

(01:01:38):
I wonder if super Yockey has made James Wan Sure,
I would like one. I think. Another important piece of
context for this movie is that canonically early I guess,
at least as far as like comic book character Aquaman
was created as a white character. And then when Zack

(01:02:00):
Snyder whoever was in charge of casting Jason Momoa as
Aquaman in Justice League, basically was just like, this doesn't
need to be the white character that we saw in
the comic books. We can just kind of cast whoever
they cast. Jason Momoa, who is native Hawaiian and to

(01:02:21):
some extent Native American. On I believe his mother's side,
but he I think doesn't necessarily claim as much heritage there,
so he um just give that some clarity. Yeah, yeah,
Jason Momoa is a bit of a problematic faith just
because he has played Native American characters in the past.

(01:02:42):
He was in a movie, uh called Rhoda Paloma I
think is how you say it, where he played a
Native character. He was on a show called The Red
Road where he plays a Native character. And he was
on Frontier where he plays a Native character. And again,
you know, and distinction there is, you know, like Hawaiians

(01:03:03):
are not Native American and Native Americans are not Hawaiian
because it's you know, different different histories, different cultures. So
in an interview for The Red Road on Sundance TV,
the lady interviewing him asked him if he has any
Native heritage, and he says, you know, my grandmother she

(01:03:24):
has a little bit of pawny, but I wouldn't say
that I have enough. And I think that that's an
important distinction, kind of problematic phrasing, you know, in a way,
you know, you don't really want to talk about blood
quantum and go into that, Kara, but you know the
fact that he does acknowledge, Like, you know, I'm a
little bit uncomfortable claiming to be Pawny, even if Grandma

(01:03:46):
might have been. I am Hawaiian, So I'm glad that
you know, at least with Aquaman, it's like, yes, this
is Hawaiian, this is Polynesian, but it's also in Agenois
and American, and you know, like he can really I
don't know, I feel like this creation was very much

(01:04:08):
part of Jason Momoa's influence, and uh, it feels more
sincere that way, because it's like, dude, stop sucking playing
native characters. Let a native person play the character. I
honestly wasn't aware of the full, like the full context
of his history there. Thank you for for letting us know. Uh,

(01:04:31):
we started to touch on this, and Alie, you were
speaking to this already, but I'm interested to hear you
speak more about kind of your connection with this movie,
especially in terms of like it's indigenous representation. It's an
indigenous superhero that there aren't really any other examples of
that by racial representation. I mean, yeah, yeah, if you

(01:04:51):
want to speak to that anymore. Well, it was interesting
when I did my research and so many people, you know,
like wrote these articles about Aquaman being like the first
actual big biracial superhero and like I even was like
trying to you know, I'm like, is that correct? You know,
like I'm going back, and the only one I can

(01:05:13):
really think of was Brandon Lee and The Crow because
he's Chinese and white. But little kids were not watching
the Crow, you know, like the same audience watching the
Crow was not, you know, like it's not as accessible
as Aquaman was. So in the same way that Blade
and Black Panther are different, Like people try to say

(01:05:35):
that Black Panther isn't the first black superhero. That was Blade,
and I'm like, yeah, but children were not the target
audience for Blade. They have it that was like R
rated right, it was like it's very gory and graphic,
and Blade wasn't presented as like look at this role
model for children, like no, no, yeah. And even Jason Momoa,

(01:05:58):
like in an interview, so he said, is honestly to
be the first mixed race Superheroen is like, really, is
is there not one? He's like, that's a huge honor.
And to play it so close to who I am
and all of his imperfections, I get to play it
in a way where you can really slip between those
two worlds. And I'm excited for the world to see it,

(01:06:18):
he says, I haven't seen Aquaman yet because I'll be
able to see something with my kids for the first time,
and I'm going to be really emotional and affected and
to hold their hands. It's going to be a really
cool moment to be a dad with a ten year
old and eleven year old. It's pretty special. And yeah,
you know, like that's what I think too. Like again,

(01:06:39):
you know, I used to work with kids at the
gym and stuff, and there was this one specific little boy,
you know, and he's black. I don't know if he
was by racial. I think both of his parents are black,
but he had these beautiful like amber colored sort of
their brown eyes, but they kind of had like yellow
in them a little bit. And he would like, oh,

(01:07:00):
I have eyes like Aquaman. You know what I look like.
You know what I mean. It's like I love that,
you know, like this kid who clearly is like, even
if Aquaman isn't black, there's something you know, it's a
brown superhero. It's by racial superhero. It some elements of
him look like him. And it's like, you know, that's

(01:07:21):
what I want for these kids, you know, especially indigenous kids,
you know, who really might not have a role model
like Superman or Batman or something to that extent. You know,
like seeing yourself on screen is is very important, especially
like when I think about representation for me. You know,

(01:07:45):
there's a million actresses out there who look like me.
There's a million characters who look like me, but I
don't feel like they are me. But then when I
see Native actresses, you know, in shows like Reservation Dogs
or you know, anything else, really I'm like, I don't
feel like that's representing me either, because I'm so white

(01:08:07):
passing and biracial and not really connected to the culture.
And I think that's why I gravitated so much towards
Frozen two when it came out, because it was you know,
an aquaman too in this extent, especially with the dad
and you know, the parents looking so much like mine
and all the other stuff. I hope that answered your question.

(01:08:29):
I kind of went out, that's like, that's so, that's
so lovely to hear, Like, yeah, this movie, I mean this,
And again it's like this movie is it's so interesting
to me because this movie wasn't marketed in that way
at all, Like it was just like, here's the Aquaman movie.
And then like I just and and maybe I just

(01:08:50):
wasn't engaging with I feel like I'm my my feed
does not superheroes don't come up in my feet a lot.
Uh So maybe I missed this course, but I didn't
hear much about it either. I mean it was like
I was very pleasantly surprised that and it's and it
just fits into the story so seamlessly. Yeah. Another thing

(01:09:11):
I think is really interesting about the narrative is that
Aquaman the character being mixed being by racial even though
it's never explicitly stated in the movie like he's half
Atlantean and half specifically indigenous human, it's always just like
he's half human and half Atlantean. Like we've mentioned, there's

(01:09:33):
like a clear allegory that can still be drawn because
he you know, he still has indigenous roots. And then
you can see this allegory of like, yes, he's half
white because Nicole Kodman is a white woman and half indigenous.
So even though there's like not an explicit discussion happening
about that in the movie, really there's like this you know,

(01:09:54):
clear allegory that's being presented. Even so, in the movie,
him being mixed is a thing that gets commented on
quite a bit, both by his like enemies who see
him being mixed as like a travesty. You know, he's
called whatever clearly like slurs by Patrick Wilson's character, by

(01:10:17):
King Orm versus other you know, his allies are constantly
reinforcing this. You know, you're the bridge between these two worlds.
We need you, and this is part of what makes
you worthy because you have these two experiences, you have
backgrounds from both of these worlds, both of these people
that can unite us because there you know, there's Nicole

(01:10:41):
Kidman shows up at the end and she's like, there
aren't two worlds. Actually it's not. You know, the surface
people and the underwater people were all from the same planet.
We are one. And again, like the voiceover, the voiceover
in the end is you know Aquaman saying, you know,
my father was a lighthousekeeper, my mother was a queen.

(01:11:02):
They never were meant to meet, but their love saved
the world. They made me what I am. A son
of the land, a king of the seas. And it's
like this celebration of his like kind of bicultural identity
is what saves the world. Let me comment on that one. Ah,

(01:11:23):
the end of the movie kills me. Yeah, okay, so
um when he says that, I know, he's like, you know,
speaking in terms of like Atlantis and people, you know,
but so saying, you know, like they were never supposed

(01:11:45):
to meet, but their love saved the world. It's like
that got to me, you know, like for a number
of reasons. Um, you know, all things considered, my parents
were never supposed to be you know, m and uh,
my dad's parents certainly were never supposed to me. You know.

(01:12:06):
It's like with residential schools and colonialism and all these
terrible things that have happened, you know in the United
States and Canada. It's like Grandma was never supposed to
be alive, you know, It's like Dad was never supposed

(01:12:26):
to be alive. You know, like technically none of us
are supposed to be here. And you know, like when
you put it in that perspective, what do you think
that you know, against all odds, like we're here, and
we're here because grandpa loved a Native woman and they
had children and then my dad met my mom. You know,

(01:12:49):
like how easily. Could Grandma have been sterilized at those
schools or could have died at those schools, Like we're
still finding you know, all of these bodies of these
two oldren you know, that are buried at different residential
schools and stuff, and it's like that could have been
any of them, you know, that could have been Auntie,

(01:13:10):
that could have been Grandma. You know, like the state
could have taken Dad away from her, you know. And
it's like so many things could have happened where they
were never supposed to meet, and they did. And uh,
even then, like once upon a time, like interracial marriages
were illegal into like the seventies, you know, like they

(01:13:32):
could have went to jail for being married, you know,
or you know, having interracial children. So it's uh, you know,
against all odds finding each other in this life. I mean,
it's kind of beautiful, and I'm happy that the movie
ended on a happy note. I'm glad that Aquaman's mom
didn't get fucking fridged like usually, you know, so the

(01:13:57):
end where you know these the end where she's there
and he finds her again. It's like when you're sitting
in the theater with mom and you know that that's
not what's gonna end because she's sick, it was still
kind of healing, and it's like, you know, I'm not

(01:14:19):
really religious or anything, but it's like, at the end
of all things, I kind of hope that that's where
we find her someday. You know, I'm so happy I'm
not the only person on the planet who fucking cries
over Aquaman because like the other articles that I've read
where people said that they got very emotional toops m
h ah. I don't know if this movie meant to

(01:14:44):
go so deep, but I interpreted it deeply. So that's
the beautiful thing about art and stories and movies is
that they can be interpreted any which way they can be.
You know, the experience that you're any viewer bringing into
the viewing experience will kind of inform I think it's

(01:15:05):
really beautiful that James One Superhero Aquaman movie is something
that's so like profoundly important and like impactful and effective
to you. I'm so glad and I'm so glad you
have that that memory with your mom too. That's really beautiful. Yeah,
that's really great. Yeah me too. It was good good

(01:15:27):
last movie and uh a happier memory was when we
were watching it is at the beginning of the movie
when he breaks into the submarine, because Mom she she
would watch all of the m c U with us
all the time, and her favorite was Thor, like she

(01:15:48):
loved Thor. And then when Aquaman broke into the submarine
and it's just beating everyone's ass, She's like, oh, no,
I don't know if who I like more? Now do
I like Thor more? Do I like Aquaman more? And
then they dude hit him and he like did that
little head tilt before he kicked his ass? And we're
both like, yeah, Aquaman, sorry, Chris. My mom had a

(01:16:12):
type long haired muscly men man. It was also a
teddy bear right funny, another lovely memory. Man, We're going
we're going deep on Aquaman. I'm so happy it's good.
It's good movie. I like it even if it kills me.

(01:16:34):
It's a good movie. And it made I wanted to
just shout out how again. I mean, I feel like
at this point, for the majority of people have a
commonly accepted truth. But like, this movie made a shipload
of money. This movie made over a billion dollars. Yeah, globally,
I think, yeah, Like I didn't. I guess I didn't
remember how wildly successful this movie was. Um, because I

(01:16:58):
just don't pay attention to the dc you because I
assume it's boring. But then I'm like, well, if it's
James Want, it's not going to be boring. And if
they had billion dollars, I know, the d C EU
just hasn't been like none of them are really any good.
I would say, like they only had like three really
really good ones, and that would be this one, Aquaman,

(01:17:19):
Wonder Woman, and Birds of Prey. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
those are the ones. Yeah, those are really because the
Superman ones haven't really been that good, the Batman ones
really haven't been good. Wonder Woman is awful, Oh my gosh,
what a third really, And I mean not for nothing
that the three good d c EU movies were directed

(01:17:41):
by women and people of colored not a white guy
to be seen Wonder Moons. Yeah, but yeah, I mean
it's huge box office success, which, by the way, it's
as of this recording, it's the twentie highest grossing film
of all time, but hilariously only the fifth highest grossing film,
of which means there were four other movies in the
gross more, which was like an Offers movie. Black Panther

(01:18:05):
incredible too, and I'm forgetting the other one, Durrassic World
whatever Durassic World came out. Oh my god, Yeah, I
guess that's that's so wild And all the while we
couldn't get a better wig for Mera with a billion dollars.
Then she looks so much like Aerial from Disney's Little Mermaid.

(01:18:25):
That distracting. I did, Um, obviously, I mean maybe this
is the part where we can like kind of say it,
like as we talk about Mira. Yeah, so like there
is definitely obviously a conversation to be had about domestic
violence and abuse, and it's not something that should be
ignored or overlooked. Of course, Um, several places have already

(01:18:50):
discussed this, and you know as far as Amber heard, yes, yes,
as far as Amber heard, and everything that's surrounding that,
the controversy. Um, so that's why we really just wanted
to focus more on the indigenous aspect of the film,
because there is a lot to be said without really
even mentioning her. Right, but now that we are going

(01:19:13):
to mention her, you know, not to give not to like, um,
it's not framing her in a positive light, so to
say more like the character just kind of separating the two.
We want to acknowledge that we are well aware that
this is I mean an ongoing case and well, I mean, well,
let's let's link to some resources to that effect in

(01:19:35):
the notes of the show. So if you're if you're
not aware of the situation, we're not going to get
into it here because we would be here for hours
and it would it would take away from what we
do want to discuss about this movie. But we are
aware of the ongoing case with Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.
Domestic violence is always something that we want to never
ever erase in the scope of our show. UM. But yeah,

(01:19:58):
so we just wanted to acknowledge it that that is
something that's ongoing at the time of this recording. Um,
in terms of like the the case is still going.
And I believe the Amber Heard is not coming back
for the second Aquaman movie. I think she is. I
think they are filming because yeah, well there was a
lot of controversy around her casting in the second movie

(01:20:20):
because they wanted to recast her, and people wanted to
boycott Aquaman two because of that, and it's like, you know,
I know this is an unpopular opinion. I mean, whether
she's an Aquaman two or not, I'm still going to
see it because he is the only indigenous, bi racial
superhero like period, and like, why let her ruin that,

(01:20:44):
you know, like, for lack of better terms, I mean,
why take it away? You know, according to MDB, she
does appear to be in this sequel that she about
a year from now in December. So okay, well, yeah,
we want to make sure that we acknowledge that. And
you know it would have felt weird too not addressing address. Yeah,

(01:21:08):
but we'd rather focus on other aspects of the film.
We're focusing on the story here. We'll we'll leave a
link in the description of this episode, right, but you know,
just separating Mira from the actress um the character herself,
I mean, is strangely pretty capable. I think, you know,
I tend to agree, yeah, to an extent. I like

(01:21:29):
that her motivation really isn't you know, Oh, I'm in
love with Arthur. You know, it's like, no, my soon
to be husband is a fucking lunatic and yeah, you know,
we have to save the world and I have to
like kind of teach this guy how to save the world.
She's kind of the impetus that gets Aquaman even involved

(01:21:50):
in the plot of the movie, which is pretty cool.
I was all over the place with her, honestly, Like,
there are certain scenes where I was like, because I
totally agree with like she is the one that brings
him into the action, but she's like, I think, unless
I missed something, the first time she participates in the
action of the movie, like she fights is an hour

(01:22:12):
and a half into the movie, and the movie is
two and a half hours long, to be fair, So
she is involved in the act. Once she is involved
in the action of the movie, she remains involved in
the action and she's in the rest of the battles.
But it it took a while for her to like
become and there there was a and maybe I'm being
like overly I don't know, maybe maybe I'm being overly

(01:22:34):
sensitive to this thing. But the first time that she fought,
there was this music cue that I'm like, I know
this music cue. It's guess who's fighting now, Like, there
is that music cue the first time she fights, where
it's a long stare, like she looks at the bug guy,
I don't know what, Like she looks at the scary
guy and she's like, oh, you don't think a girl

(01:22:56):
can fun? Like she doesn't say it, but the music
tells you that. And then she fights and then you're like,
all right, I guess we broke the seal there. And
then she continues to fight, and like we know why
she knows how to fight like all this stuff because
she she had a mentor growing up as well. So
it's not a Merry Sioux situation or anything like that,
but I wish she'd I do. I sort of wanted

(01:23:18):
her to get involved in the action a little sooner
because there were I think like at least one, possibly
two large fight set pieces where she's sidelined and I
didn't think necessarily had to be right, that's fair, Yeah,
But I was also I was also paying attention to
things like does she ever have to be saved by
a man? Is she doing any of the shaving? And

(01:23:40):
I found that she she saves him twice. She saves
him twice one when the first like that big title
wave that arm throws at them. She saves both Aquaman
and his dad by also like kind of giving him
like Atlantean CPR, basically like using her powers to like
extract the her from his lungs, and then she saves

(01:24:01):
him from Patrick Wilson's fashy rage. Yes, and after like
the ring of fire battle and yeah, I mean when
we do see her fighting, she is a competent fighter.
She can turn wine into swords. That's pretty cool. I know.
I was like, wow, what a live laugh love moment.
Uh well, I mean technically Jesus is her teacher, so

(01:24:25):
whoa that. Guess what you can do with the wine?
Love it? It's so deep. Um, yeah, I think I think.
I just like that. Whenever that like girl fighting now
music que plays, I'm just like, come on, come on,
James Wan. You know women can fight. You've been doing

(01:24:46):
that forever. But whatever. But and then towards the end,
there's there is someone who saves Mara as they're approaching
like the tridents resting place and they're being attacked by
all these like sea creatures, and at first I thought, O,
it was Aquaman, but then it turns out to be
this unknown figure who ends up being Nicole Kidman's character.

(01:25:06):
So I was like, Okay, she at no point has
to be saved by a man, unless I'm like missing
something or forgetting something. I don't think that happens. No,
she doesn't, Okay, so that was I was like, all right,
that's that's something for you know, that's kind of unusual.
She's fighting with weapons, like the bars on the floor,
but like she fights with weapons, it's not like random

(01:25:28):
stuff that's around and has like powers. I feel like
a lot of superhero movies don't really equip if there
is like one woman in the story, she isn't like
thinking of the first like Avengers movie where Black Widow
all these other characters have like out of this world powers,
and then Black Widows like, I can wrap my legs
around a man's face and pussy slam him to the ground.

(01:25:53):
But she's got actual powers also in the like when
the movie turns into National Treasure for a while and
they're like having to use like clue solving skills. She
knows what to do with the first artifact. She knows
where to go and how to find it. She knows
how to access the recording, which leads them to the
next clue. She memorizes that recording, which Aquaman like didn't

(01:26:15):
even think to do or couldn't do, or you know,
I relate to that too, because I legit would be
like what did he just say? What do we have
to do? I would have to watch it forty seven
times and like write it down. Yeah, And I like that.
It's like it's not just I feel like very often.
I mean, I think you could even make this argument
for National Treasure of like, even when there's a capable woman,

(01:26:38):
she's all along for the ride. I mean, in the
case of National Treasure, she's a hostage for a while
and doesn't do any of the clue solving, even though
she's like a historian. So but but in this case,
it's not only is mera a very very important active participant,
they also share a common goal like her, their fates
are connected, and so the stakes are extreme high for her.

(01:27:00):
It's not just like I have a crush on this guy,
so I'm going to help him out, or Nicholas Cage
is taking me hostage, so let me see what I
can do, like you know, right, And then the second
big clue, Aquaman figures that out because he's like, oh,
Romulus was the king. We have to put the bottle
and the statues hand, and then that's how we find
the thing. But it just means that there's equity between

(01:27:21):
like she saw the first thing, he solves the second one.
They're like equals in this endeavor, which again is not
It's like, should just be the standard thing that we
can expect, but it's almost never that way. It's almost like,
you know, the man doing all the work, the woman's
there along for the ride to look pretty and to
kiss at the end, which does happen in this movie too.

(01:27:43):
I would argue that this love story feels very wedged in,
doesn't really need to be there, doesn't really develop in
any meaningful way except for that one scene where she's like,
look at me eat flowers and he's like, ha ha,
you're you're cute, and then and then they're kissing right
there are Yeah, there are a few like hey, end
brusha's and then meaningful glances and it's like is this necessary?

(01:28:04):
I mean sure, I guess, And it didn't like super
bother me because the characters do have chemistry, but it
was like, I agree, it's like it is wedged It
could have been a potentially like tutor, I guess, if
she was more like a younger sister or something as
opposed to a love interest. Yeah, because the optics of like, well,

(01:28:25):
I mean, I guess who cares. But it's like she
was going to marry her, she's being forced to marry
his brother, and then she's like, oh, I guess I'm
just actually going to marry her, which feels very like
classically royal story that felt like this felt like such
a modern story, and to have that like royal brother
conflict felt more dated. I don't know, I don't they

(01:28:48):
would have taken the kiss out of that big fight
scene and then at the end where he's like what
do I do now, she's like be their king and
he like kind of kisses her on the forehead before
he does that thing. I'm like, how cute would that
have been? If that would have been like a big
brother like I'm gonna be the king or whatever instead
of oh, we just made out and you know what
I mean, like something a little bit more wholesome. Yeah,

(01:29:12):
I like I like the little sister thing, or like
I'd like to just see more examples of like women
being men and a woman being platonic friends in a
movie that they don't have any fine, they can still
both be like movie star hot, but also like it
doesn't automatically mean they're going to be attracted to each
other and gonna wanna kiss someone. Max and Furious too

(01:29:36):
hot people who don't kiss, and they are just allies.
And I love that. Just let hot people be friends.
Just let people friends once, I would say. And I
mean as far as like so Mara, I don't know,
I would have liked to get to know her a
little bit better. She doesn't have that much of an arc.

(01:29:57):
She doesn't feel like that new wance or complicated of
a character to me. I don't know. I feel like
there could have been more, like I don't know, just
emotional nuance to her, which I think could have been
explored if she was like a member of their family,
like the little sister or you know, a friend of
the family who I don't know. It just I felt
like there could have been more to develop her. But

(01:30:19):
I was generally impressed with the way her character was
handled and the amount that she was given to do
and the agency that she had. I was. I was
generally impressed with all of that. I agree. There is though,
a scene which kind of like picked for me. When
it's towards the end, Aquaman and Mara have shown up

(01:30:39):
at this like cave place where the trident is supposed
to be. Nicole Kidman is also like, by the way,
I've been hiding for twenty years. And then we're also like,
does that mean that Aquaman is only like twenty five
because I think she he was like a small boy
when she So I'm like, okay, I guess Aquaman's twenty
five or something. Think about was like forty something. Yeah,

(01:31:05):
she's and she's supposed to be Patrick Wilson's mother, Like
Patrick Wilson is like fifty. You're like, well, I guess
it's all relative. We don't know how people in Atlantis
age by aging my aging underwater differently. This is just
a goofy Atlantis observation. But there would be some of
the scenes in Atlantis where you would just you would
just be seeing the actors from like the chest up,

(01:31:27):
and then they would suddenly cut to a wide shot
and you're like, oh, they're floating there. It's just like
that guy's hair is just like Doren has like red hair,
and he's just like sort of floating around and his
hair is all going everywhere. Seed where they take Willhem
Dafoe's nice Jaffar character to the dungeon or whatever. They

(01:31:47):
cut to a wide shot and like to those like kicking,
and I was like, that's so funny. I forget that
he's swimming in this scene while he's going, um, he's
being taken to the dungeon. Yeah, it looks very stall anyway.
So the three of them have all kind of reunited.
It's an aquaman and his mother and then Mara, and

(01:32:10):
there's you were like Aquamans like, all right, I gotta
go find the trident. And he goes and like does
the very important thing of the movie, and then he
comes back to where Mara in Atlanta or Atlanta are
just like, well, we had to wait for the man
to do the important thing, and then we were just
the two women who were sitting here waiting. Well, they
don't want to. I think that's fair enough. You do

(01:32:33):
not want women with the tentacle monster in this movie
because fandom is weird enough without god fair fair enough.
That picked for me as well. And I feel like
that could have been remedied by just like writing a
short scene for them. Yeah, because I forget who was

(01:32:53):
saying it earlier, but like she would have known Queen
Atlanta since she was very young. They would have plenty
to talk about. She was going to be forced to
marry her bed son, she's falling in love with her
good son. They just have known each other for a
long time. Maybe they'll reminisce about something. What is Nicole
Kidman been up to? Like, there's so many questions and

(01:33:14):
there could have been a scene with them. Wait would
they have known? Wouldn't have Nicole Kidman's character been banished
probably before Mary was even born? I don't know, because
I think Mari says something. I think Mari says something
like this goes against everything your mother taught us or something. Right,
It's that was Yeah, it sounds like they which again
you have to suspend your disbelief and believe that Patrick

(01:33:36):
Wilson and Amber her at the same age, which is
very obviously not true. But yeah, I like I think
that they would have known each other. But even if not,
there's plenty to talk about. Yeah, or if like if
we want to throw in another like fight sequence in
there where if like some of the sea creatures had
like infiltrated this place and then we have to see

(01:33:57):
these like two women, you know, kick some ass like
an action movie. After all, Like it just felt so
weird to me that, like he comes back and it's
like these two women were just like, okay, we wait.
We were here waiting for you the man to do
with the important thing, and we were just sitting here
waiting and I was like, that could have been handled
way better. Yeah. Yeah, But bottom line, especially compared to

(01:34:19):
superhero movies and the way women are treated in them
for years prior to this, uh, Mara's involvement in story
is pretty decent. Yeah, motivated, there's action, like, it's good.
I wouldn't call it trinity syndrome either, you know. I
there's plenty for her to do. It's not like she
just showed up and it's like, now what do I do?

(01:34:42):
And I'm here? Really how cool I am? What do
I do? Nothing? Yeah, it's not like Morpheus sent me.
It's like I sent myself because I see that this
man that I've been forced into a marriage is trying
to kill the world, so I have to um stop him. Yeah,
and then in the same in the same way. I mean,
and I think we've kind of covered this at this point,

(01:35:04):
but um, Queen Atlanta has a full arc. You know,
It's it does seem like you're kind of led to
believe for the majority of the movie that she is Fridged.
But then not only is she not Fridge, but she
gets to go on this like beautiful journey that makes
me cry when I think about it. Um, So, you know,
there are certainly more characters of consequence in this story

(01:35:28):
that are men. For sure. There's brother conflict, there's pirate
merman conflict. There's fathers and sons. There's a lot of
you know, male relationship. And I don't even necessarily mean
that in a bad way because there's a wide variety
of them. And then there are like two women in
the story basically, and they are both white ladies, which

(01:35:51):
but the women who are there, I think that the
script does right by them and they have fully realized
stories and their motivated, dead and involved and yeah, h
I wanted to talk a little bit more about the
relationship between Aquaman and his dad because I think it's beautiful,
and we do joke a lot on the show about

(01:36:11):
how like, ultimately all stories are about fathers and sons. Um,
this one doesn't bother me. This one's beautiful, This one
doesn't bother me. It's it's a very sweet and supportive relationship.
Between the two of them. I feel like a trope
you see A lot is like the younger man, the son,
trying to prove himself to his dad and like kind
of being toxic along the way, or like the dad

(01:36:34):
character needs to redeem himself because he's been a shitty,
absent dad for his whole life. But there's like none
of that in this story. It's just like they've been together.
They are supportive of each other. There's no like masculinity
contest that either of them are trying to win. They're
just like having a nice time together and they love

(01:36:57):
each other. And I really appreciate she ate that representation
of like a father son relationship in a movie, because
we don't usually get anything like that. Yeah, there is
a there's a line of dialogue the Aquamenses towards the
end that I found to be confused. I don't I
don't know if this was a joke or what, but
it's when Mara is saying she said something like we

(01:37:20):
need to like encourage diplomacy, or we need to like
try to talk this out or like get it so
that the different like kingdoms of Atlantis are like get
It's something along those lines. I didn't write down specifically
what it was, but Aquaman's response to that was, I
learned from a young age not to show weakness. I
solved my problems with anger and my fists. I'm a

(01:37:43):
blunt instrument and I'm damn good at it. And I'm like,
is that actually even true? Like I feel like your
father wouldn't have like taught you that. Yeah, I'm just
I'm a tough man. Think guys will like guys like
you as I'd be like, look, I'm a little fucked
up and you're like, because why like lass party and

(01:38:05):
with those guys in that scene earlier, but it was
so it was so sweet. That was like the est. Yeah,
you don't see Batman doing that ship. Aquaman is so
much better. He's a friendly neighborhood Aquaman. He's a wholesome
boy boy. Yeah. No, that that relationship with that was

(01:38:28):
really well done. And it also didn't like it was
so I don't know, Yeah, it didn't like overtake the
story in a way that I feel like those relationships
sometimes do. And like, like you were saying at the
beginning of the episode, Alley, there's all of these like
pretty nuanced themes in this movie that just it's just seamless.
You don't feel like the movie is like really pushing

(01:38:51):
any particular theme on you. It's just like it's just
happening and it's and it's good. Yeah. That's really surprising
because of like Lesser Hands, you know, like this could
have been so messy and a movie that's already kind
of messy. I'm happy that part wasn't. You know, it's right.
I did appreciately like pro environmental conservation message of the movie,

(01:39:14):
although it was kind of weird that it was the
motivation for the villain and that it wasn't also the
motivation for like the good guys. That's a little Ghostbusters
for me. Yeah, we're like the E p A Is
the Devil. Yeah. I feel like they didn't want to
make the villain to sympathetic, you know, where it's like

(01:39:35):
kill Monger, you know, like made so many good points,
and it's like, well, we can't have y'all, you know,
rooting for the bad guys, so let's make him a misogynist,
you know what I mean, like black Panther. Otherwise, I
mean people would be like, oh, yeah, you know what
I mean, right, Like, yeah, see your point. Maybe I
should follow you actually, So then Orm is like, you know,

(01:39:57):
well you're not wrong, but you're also a fascistict yeah,
like or recognizes the environmental issue in a way that
Aquaman doesn't as much. But also his proposed solution is
violence and like racial violence and uh like would not
resolve the problem, but he acknowledges it. So it's weird.

(01:40:19):
And then at the end that line that Nicole Kidman
when she comes to like, I whatever, it's a comic
book story. So when she goes over and hugs her
son and she's like, don't do a fascism and he's like,
oh man, I feel so silly, and like he's like,
I'm sorry, mommy, I really I wasn't gonna I definitely
wasn't going to do a fascism. And then I'll go

(01:40:39):
to jail. Now think about what you did in the
dungeon and like in the swimming dungeon or whatever, and
so it's like all very whatever end of movie stuff.
But then Nicole Kidman says something like that makes sense
thematically with aquaman S narrative, where she's like the land
and the you know, we're all she's kind of like,
this is a monoculture maybe, and it's like, Okay, that

(01:41:01):
is I see, I see why she's saying that, But
that really pushes the environmental stuff aside. And because we've
been seeing I mean, that's why I'm intrigued by the
Randall Park character UM and how he is going to
team up with be held hostage by unclear uh with

(01:41:26):
Black Manta. But like it seems like the movie setting,
like the franchise, is being set up to address that
in a more meaningful way in the next movie. It
seems like it. I hope that there will be UH
in the sequel. I hope that there will be more
women of color in it, especially like Polynesian women are
more Polynesian characters in general, because you know, ycause it's

(01:41:47):
the Polynesian superhero. And also I guess the the environmental issues.
I wonder if it was also now that I think
about it, I wonder if it was kind of swept
under the rug a little bit because Jason Momoa was
protesting Mauna Kea around the time and then was also

(01:42:08):
standing in solidarity with Standing Rock Yes, and they were
probably like, well, we don't want it to get to
preachy because we're still Hollywood and you know, I don't
want to make too many waves. We don't want to
be pro environment. That would be absurd, that would be
a bad look for us. So it's like, what do

(01:42:30):
you mean God, I mean yeah, And then you think
about whether you can't you can't. You just can't think
about it. Like the carbon footprint of a movie like
this is gigantic and there aren't enough. Um. I mean,
that's a conversation that we should have on this show someday,
but I just haven't done enough research on it. But
just like the massive carbon footprint that movies havepen how
there's basically no regulations on how much energy you can

(01:42:52):
just bust into the air making you know, Willem Dafoe
swim or whatever it is, Like right, yeah, I would
like to learn more about that too. I feel like
we like, very very minimally scratched the surface when we
talked about Babe on the Patreon and I get a
little deep dive onto like how certain practical effects have

(01:43:14):
like killed nearby animals on movie sets. There have been
a few examples of that, but like, yeah, it's not
just like wildlife, it's just, yeah, the kind of ecological
impact that a lot of production movie productions have is
I'm sure not great. The next big big blockbuster we cover,
maybe I'll do a section of Avatar to probably because

(01:43:38):
you know that. God, Yeah, when we do the Avatar episode,
that would be that would because it's like, oh, this
that movie does claim to be a lot of things,
but you're like, bull, but what was the carbon footprint
of that? Mr Cameron? Can can we get some numbers there?
Among other things? Yeah? H does anyone have any other

(01:44:01):
thoughts about the movie that they like to discuss. I
want to say yes, but I'm blanking out. I think
that's that's everything that I had. There's so there was
so much, there's so much to love about this movie. Yeah,
I do have a newfound appreciation for it. I mean,
for me, like when I watch a movie, I'm mostly

(01:44:22):
analyzing until I analyze it through like the Bechtel cast lens.
I'm just looking at it from like I'm mostly like
story point of view, and like how well are the
characters developed, how compelling are the themes, how structurally sound
is the story? How like effective is the world building?
And I feel like some of those things in this

(01:44:42):
movie is like what made it feel very like clunky,
Like most of the world building is done through like
very clunky dialogue, and I'm just like, come on, of exposition.
Yeah there's But visually, for me, some of the choices
were strange, and again I was experiencing a lot of
sensory overload. But um, yeah, I do have a I

(01:45:03):
have way more appreciation for this movie than I did
before we started talking about it on this show. So
I every time I see I was selling Caitlin this
off Mike before we started recording. But I was like
everything that I found confusing about this movie, I suddenly
was like, I actually like it because it's all James

(01:45:24):
Wan stuff, Like James Wan created Jigsaw. Who if can
you think of a more expositional character than Jigsaw. He
the movies are not particularly well written, and they look
absolutely weird every single time, but it just it just works.
His movies are just vibrating. That's the James Wan way. Yeah,

(01:45:47):
Jigsaw is the ultimate I think. I guess listeners, let
me know if there's a character that um is more
inherently expositional than Jigsaw. We should do a saw a
month on the Patriot we got. Oh goodness, does this
movie pass the back door test. I forgot to pay attention.
It does. I I saw it passing one time. It

(01:46:11):
is a two and a half hour movie. Maybe I
missed something, But there was one interaction that Jason Momoa
is present for and it's shot from the back, so
it could have even been a d R. But maybe
maybe someone flagged that in James Wanda is like, oh shit, um.
But Nicole Kidman and uh Mea have an exchange where

(01:46:34):
Mara says something like and you've been here for twenty
years and she's like, yes, I've been here for twenty years,
and then they're like, anyways, aqua man. But it does.
Technically it does pass. Okay, well, good for the movie.
They also had two and a half other hours to

(01:46:56):
to maybe do that, And but that is like, that's
I think an extension of a problem we've been talking
about for five years now that the first time I
remember talking about it was in our Star Wars episode
four episode where it's like, how could this movie pass
the Bechdel test? There's only one woman she's got to
want to talk to, and it's like there's only two
women and they only appear in one scene together. Where
else is this going to pass. That's like a structural flaw.

(01:47:19):
I mean, yeah, that does speak to how there are
a lot of characters in this movie and most of
them are met. We get another like there's a scene
where Orm kills like the mermaid kingman and then his
daughter who's like teen daughters now, like the heir to
the throne. So then she shows up in a later
battle and she's like doing some stuff here and there

(01:47:42):
barely I mean blank, and you'll miss her. But other
than that that, yeah, there really aren't any women. But like,
for example, Willem Dafoe's character easily could have been a
woman like one of the villains, like other of the
villains could have been a woman. There are and I'm
sure that that connects to like the common Book says, well,
but it's like this movie already, this franchise already made

(01:48:03):
changes independently of the comic book that improved the source material.
So why not why not keep going with it? What
if Black Manta's dad would have been Black Manta's mom mother, right,
because then that really would have been shitty if he
would have left his mom to die, you know after
what he did, Like no, fuck you, I mean Black
Manta could have also been a woman, Like what's what's

(01:48:26):
to stop that from happening. But I do like the
idea of it being his mother instead of his father,
because then that's like Aquaman has like mommy problems, and
that would like heighten the conflict between the two of
them if they have this like shared like loss of
mother and like, ah, yeah, it was right there, it

(01:48:47):
was right. That's why you don't let an l a
p d. Officer write your movie. They're gonna yeah, um,
as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples.
Analyzing it through an intersexual feminist lens um, I would
say between Mara and Atlanta, even though they are the

(01:49:11):
only two women in the story and they don't really
interact hardly ever, but as individual characters, like there's interesting
things happening there, there's more equity between Like Mara, who
is positioned to be the love interest, but she's also
more than that. In this movie, she's all that, she's
doing other stuff, she's fighting, she's solving clues, she has

(01:49:33):
the agency to like seek out Aquaman to begin with,
so you know, she's far more important to the narrative
than a lot of other like superhero movie female counterparts
of hers have been in the past, So that's cool.
The fact that this movie is representation of an indigenous superhero,
a biracial superhero. Uh the kids adults alike have seen

(01:49:58):
themselves represented in is like really important, really powerful, very meaningful.
The relationship between Aquaman and his dad and how there's like, again,
so many father son relationships are in movies are so
steeped in like some weird form of toxic masculinity, and
the fact that that's absent from this relationship I think

(01:50:20):
is a very positive thing to see on screen. And
so yeah, there's a lot of things going for the
movie that again, when looking at it through the through
the bectolcast lens, I appreciate it way more. So with
that in mind, I'll give it like three and a

(01:50:40):
half nipples, because there's still some stuff that, you know,
kind of rubbed me the wrong way. The fact that
the only black characters are villains, Like, why weren't there
black Atlanteans who are just existing in that world? Why
aren't there other just like any yeah, any people of
color elsewhere in the story, because it's still a predominantly

(01:51:03):
white cast. And and then there are the only black
characters we meet, Like there immediately sidelines until the credits
of the movie, right, yeah, yeah, and then you've got
like Randall Park, who seems like a very fun character.
I was like, so, where's he? Give me more him?
I'm pretty sure he has a very large role in
the second movie. I did a little digging, and I

(01:51:27):
love Randall Park. Yeah, he's great. So I think there
could have been more, just diversity overall, but yeah, even so,
I was three three and a half nipples, and I
will give one to Jason Momoa. I'll give one to
Nicole Kidman's wig. I'll give one to Always got to

(01:51:51):
give one to her wig and never to her and
never to her. I'll give one to Randall Park. And
I'll give my half nipple to the how do you
say this word? Corinth Corinthian corinthe No, not Corinthian whatever,
the giant crab monster. H So that gets my that's

(01:52:13):
my half nipple. I'll meet you at three and a half.
That sounds right to me. Um, yeah, I I agree
with what you're saying. I feel like this movie is
doing so much for a superhero movie. I absolutely loved
and really appreciated you sharing your connection to it. Ali
like it is just like I'm so glad this movie exists,

(01:52:37):
and I'm so glad that the Yeah, that just that's
how this world is, and that it I don't know,
like it subverted a lot of my expectations of just
what I expect from superhero movies in general, but also
just you know, including a biracial character in a meaningful way,
in a very authentic and thoughtful way that was also

(01:52:58):
true to like who the actor himself is, and just
all of this wonderful thematic stuff and then and then
I mean in terms of how I mean, and I
agree that the two female characters that we have are
wonderful and they have these fully realized stories. They're very motivated,
they're they're also very white. And I really hope that

(01:53:21):
you know, in like like we've discussed already, that there
is diversity across gender in this franchise as it continues
to develop, which I want to believe is going to happen.
Um also know, like body diversity to like there's a
shot where like the two women are standing next to
each other and it's like, oh, you have the same

(01:53:41):
exact body type, Well you forgot Nicole Kidman is taller
than husband. That if mirror was cast by like a big, hulking,
gorgeous woman like yeah, hell yeah, or that would have
been Acquaman's mom. So like the cole Conman's beautiful a lot.

(01:54:01):
If it was right like rich people were gigantic, which
is why he's fucking gigantic, that would make sense to me. Sorry,
I never have to do Jamie, No, no, I'll go
three and a half. I am now officially amped to
see Aquaman two. Who knew James wants directing the new

(01:54:24):
one as well? I appreciate James Wan. Okay, three and
a half nipples. Gotta give one to James Want. I'm
as big as fan. Also, I'll give one to the
Cthulhu as well. Give one to Jason Momoa. He is fantastic.
I really love him, and I'll give my last half two.

(01:54:48):
Randall Park nice Illi, what about you? Yeah, I think
three and a half is fair because you know, obviously
the movie meant a lot to me for a bunch
of different emotional reasons. But uh, but yeah, it does
have a lot of clunkiness in it. The exposition, like
I said, is all over the place. There's a lot

(01:55:09):
of information, a lot of backstory. Um, but all of
it is cool, So I'm a little bit more forgiving,
But it just could have been done better. Birds of
Prey kind of does that too. Actually, it's just a
little slapping, a lot packed into yeah, a lot of characters.
I feel like it's like when you have that many characters,
you're like, well, someone's going to get lost in the mix.

(01:55:31):
Like and yeah, I think it was supposed to be
two movies and they just kind of like combine them
and it feels that way. Yeah, But like I said,
like a lot of the stuff, the stuff that's clumsy
is clumsy, but not terrible. I've definitely seen so much
worse in the d C EU on top of that, Like,

(01:55:53):
but the stuff that they did well, they did very
very well, like surprisingly well. So yeah, i'll give it
three and a half. Also, I'll give one of these
nips to Jason Momoa. I'd like to give him too,
but he can just have one. I'll give another one
to his dad because Mandalorian. I'm going to give the

(01:56:17):
third one to Black Manta just because, yeah, Yama is
so hot and I know that's not what it's important
right now, but I just had to say that he's
hot but bad. He was also like I know that
there's a problematic element obviously with the black guy be
and the villain, but man, at least he was a
good villain, which wouldn't have been an issue again if

(01:56:39):
there were other black characters, right, but because he's he
and his dad were the only ones in his dad dies,
It's like, okay, well that's pretty glaring anyway, right of course.
But then uh, yeah, my half, I guess we'll go
to Nicole kidman, just just a cool kidsman. Just get
that I have to give the full ones to the

(01:57:01):
people of color and the indigenous folks, and you can
just have a half just half. Well, Alie, thank you
so much for coming back and joining us in this
wonderful discussion and for sharing your your connection with this movie.
It's like really moving and I was like tearing up
and yeah, me too, thank you for putting up with

(01:57:23):
me during that. Oh my god, oh my god, any
please come back anytime, like truly, I will come back
for Avatar properly. I called this. Nobody else gets to
do it but me. You've got Avatar. Does give me
a call and be like all right, we're doing this,
and I will be like, yes, we are my time.
Wait when does the next When does Avatar to come out?

(01:57:46):
Twenty years from now? Probably? Yeah, like not for another
year and a half. We can't wait. It can't it
can't wait. It can't wait. An it's never coming out?
Oh God. But yeah, I would love to come back
and thank for inviting me again. I love talking about movies, yes,
and we love having you. Where can people you know

(01:58:07):
check out your stuff follow you online? Tell us about
the A LA tests. We've talked about it before, but
tell our listeners who might not be familiar, what the
LA test is. Okay, So the A LA tests started
off on Tumbler. It's the dash A LA dash test
dot tumbler dot com. And it was when I was
in Finland and came up with a Bechdel Test inspired

(01:58:31):
litmus test I suppose for a Native and Indigenous women,
where I noticed that when they appear movies, they're usually
not a main character or a white guy's girlfriend, or
they get murdered or they get sexually assaulted and every
single thing I've seen, so I'm like, okay, let's look
for characters who are the main character so an Indigenous

(01:58:56):
woman who is a main character, who is not the
love interest to a white guy and doesn't get sexually
assaulted or killed at any point in the story. And
it took off, Like I don't know, people just really
responded really well to this, which I was kind of
surprised by. But I guess when you have like hard evidence,

(01:59:19):
you know, where it's all like, no, I don't think
I'm making this up by seeing this pattern, and it's
a very disturbing pattern that keeps happening, and people are like, yeah,
actually that is kind of sucked up. You know, why
aren't more characters passing the ALA test? Yeah, And it
was kind of like I mean, it was I believe,
like the first of its kind as far as like

(01:59:39):
an like a test examining representation of Indigenous women in media,
and like when you have something like that that's like
also like easily quantifiable or like qualifiable, Like, yeah, I
I'm not surprised that it took off, because it's like
it's a great way to like open up that conversation
about representation of Indigenous characters and women in media. And

(02:00:03):
that's all I really wanted it to do. You know.
It was just like start the conversation and then hopefully
it leads to better movies and better characters, which I
hope it has. Like people have been talking about it
a lot, I think, I mean, it seems like it has.
I like, I don't know it already has like such
a cool, impactful legacy. The Gina Davis Institute called it out,

(02:00:27):
So congratulations, that was amazing. She got me into the
goddamn league. You're part of the Justice League now, yeah,
but yeah, and then I did another test. I think
I was talking about this when we were talking about
movie talks with Caitlin. Yes, yes, yes, where it was

(02:00:47):
does the Indian live? Which is also like does the
Native American characters show up in the movie? And does
he die? Okay, if he does, he doesn't pass, you know, hope.
So uh, that one hasn't quite as taken off. But
that's mostly because I am not organized and I don't
know how to run a website. So I'm figuring it

(02:01:09):
out it don't happen. But other than that, you can
find me on Twitter, Alie Naughty on Twitter, Alie Naughty
on Tumbler, Elie Naughty on TikTok. If you really want
to see me embarrass myself and on Instagram. Yeah, I
love your one minute movie reviews. They're really great. I
haven't done one in a long time. I need to

(02:01:31):
do it again. Yeah, bring it back, bring it back,
And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram
at spectel Cast. We've got our Matreon which is at
patreon dot com slash spectel cast, and that's five dollars
a month and you get to bonus episodes every single month,

(02:01:51):
plus access to the entire back catalog, which is over
one hundred bonus episodes. This month we did two of
our most popular romcom request that we've just never done
for some reason. So if you want to hear us
absolutely hand. You've got males ads back to it. That's
where you can go to do that how to Lose

(02:02:12):
a Guy in ten Days as well. Um. Yeah, the
Matrean community is so lovely and so fun and is loose.
You know, we're hanging loose on the Matreon, so head
over there. It's holiday time. If you want to get
some merch, you can go to t public dot com
slash the bettel Cast and I think that's everything. Well,

(02:02:34):
we'll see you in December, alright, bye, bye bye,

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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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