Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret with Kate Helen Downey

You must! You must! You must listen to Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Kate Helen Downey chat about Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret!

Check out Kate's podcast, Cramped, wherever you get your podcasts, and follow Kate on Instagram at @katehelendowney and on TikTok at @kateiscramped

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zeph and Beast
start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
We must, we must, we must record. The Bechdel cost.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
Cost the Bechtel costs. Okay, so you just get you
become British at the end. The Bechtel costs.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
The Bechtel costs.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yes, and if you say that thirty five times a
day with your best friends, your podcast will get wig.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Gets so freaking huge.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
It'll get so busty.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
So many listeners.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I like to think spiritually, our podcast has big old titties.
Oh yeah, yeah, even though I haven't been blessed, I
like to think my podcasts are have.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Have big titty energy.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Yeah yes. Well, well, now that we've started by objectifying
our own podcast, which if you're a listener you can agree,
just huge, just huge, huge naturals on this podcast. My
name is Jamie Loftus parentheses, small naturals.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
My name is Caitlin Dronte parentheses medium naturals.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
I mean you you you've got great bobs. Kalen thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I just posted I know a picture.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
I know I like them because I was like, thank you.
It's just some some are blessed anyway. So this is
the Bechdel Cast, the podcast where we take a look
at your favorite movies using the Bechdel Test as a
jumping off point for discussion. But Kitlin, what the hell
is that?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh my gosh. It is a media metric created by
queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test.
There are many versions of it. The one that we
use is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?
Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation
about something other than a man? And a little kind

(02:09):
of like caveat that we have is that it's a
narratively meaningful, substantial conversation and not just throw away dialogue.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
And that actually I do there are some episodes where
it feels like the Bechdel Test is a very sort
of like tangential part of the show. This episode, I
think is actually a great time to talk about it,
because of you know, Alison Bechdel, and I mean, Judy
Bloom is older than Alice A. Bechtel, But you know,
they both have a huge sort of hand and forwarding
feminist discourse of the twentieth century. So I feel like

(02:41):
they're in conversation with each other. And today we are
covering the twenty twenty three movie Are You there?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
God?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Question Mark is me and Margaret period? An emphasis on
the period, because that's going to come up a lot. Yeah,
we have an amazing guest, So let's get her in here.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
We absolutely, I do. She's a podcast producer. She's host
of the podcast Cramped, as well as co founder of
Caveat in New York City. Ever heard of it. It's
a great comedy venue. It's Kate Helen Downey. Welcome.

Speaker 4 (03:11):
Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Oh my gosh, thanks for being here, and thank you
for bringing us this movie. So I with your permission, Caitlin,
I would love to know. I mean, normally this is
where we talk about our history with this movie, but
I would also love to know everyone's history with Mss
Judy Bloom and her Ouvra.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Indeed, Kate, let's start with you and also tell us
about Cramped and kind of how all of this ties together.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
It's all connected. It's inception style.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeah, So I have had horrible, horrible period pain since
I was fourteen, since basically the first time I got
my period, I throw up, I pass out. Not every
time I get my period, but sometimes, And I have
never in twenty two years gotten a a diagnosis from
a doctor or like useful treatment or anything really helpful.

(04:07):
I have been told everything from your period pain will
get better when you have your first baby, which is
what I was told when I was fourteen, all the
way to just yeah, your period. You're in a lot
of pain. It's so weird, like we don't know what
could be causing it. Have you tried ibuprofen?

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (04:25):
And I changed insurances a lot in my twenties, so
I saw a lot of different gynecologists and asked them
all this question and never got a satisfactory answer. And
then the more people that I would talk to about,
you know, the more I opened up about my period pain,
the more comfortable I got talking about it, the more
people I found who also got very similar symptoms during

(04:45):
their periods, and the more I kept going, like maybe naively,
but going like, if this many people have this much pain,
how are we all being told that were like medical freaks,
you know.

Speaker 4 (04:59):
Like it just doesn't right.

Speaker 5 (05:01):
And so I had this idea years ago to do
a podcast about just searching for answers for myself, just
trying to finally get some like real information that I
could then share with all the other people out there
who feel totally dismissed and like neglected by medicine and
are experiencing this kind of pain. And so I ended

(05:21):
up getting a grant to do ten episodes and the
last one comes out as we're recording this. The last
one is coming out next week.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
So yeah, we did it.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Congratulations, that's amazing. I'm I'm so excited to listen to it.
And I mean, I don't know, I don't want you
to like force spoilers, but is there anything that like
really stuck out in terms of your like your takeaways
from having produced the show?

Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yeah, well, I mean I got into it like with
very simple questions where I was like, each episode, I'm
just gonna like ask this question that like seems like
a dumb question, but I don't know the answer, and
so we're gonna like talk to whatever experts we need,
and I'm gonna do the research and like we're gonna
just try to answer this question that I've never been
able to get answered, and so like the first one
is just like literally, what's happening inside my body? Like

(06:06):
why am I in pain? What is causing it? And
it's like, yeah, that's a really complicated question to answer.
And sometimes the questions are complicated and difficult to answer
because bodies are complicated, and just like it could be
a simple question and it's not a simple answer. And
sometimes the questions are hard to answer because we have
not studied it. We just haven't, like no one else

(06:29):
has been curious about this or been funded to do this.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
And so very.

Speaker 5 (06:35):
Quickly I got into what you guys talk about a lot,
which is the systemic sexism, racism, and misogyny that is
present underneath all of the structures, underlies all of our structures,
but especially the medical structures. And so we really get
detailed and specific about like you know, it's it's is

(06:56):
are the doctor's sexist? Maybe sometimes, but it's actually that's
not the biggest problem. Like the biggest problem is like
we don't study it, Like why don't we study it totally?
Because we don't think it's important. We don't think it's
important that millions and millions of people with uteruses are
in pain. We just don't think that's really important as
a culture, as a society.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, And then so when we were talking about, you know,
having you come on the podcast and what movie to examine,
you were interested in talking about a movie that like
directly and explicitly addresses the fact that people have periods.
And there were so few movies and the movie we're
talking about today is one of.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
The few, and it's recent and like recent, it's I'm
so excited to get into like the history of like
how long it took this movie to be made, because
it took literally fifty years. Like if it was made
after it was published, it wouldn't be a period piece
from a like it's a period piece and a period
period okay, from half a century ago though, like it

(07:59):
is just I'm just like glad Judy Bloom got to
see it made cause I know, jeez, Louise.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
It's wild.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
Yeah, there are I actually just I did a whole
episode on why there aren't more period mentions in any
kind of media, like we think of film and TV,
but also like podcasts, like there's actually not for a
medium that like talks about personal experience constantly like there's
not much out there about periods, and then even social media,

(08:29):
you search for like period cramps on TikTok and you
get very little. And it's like why there are different
reasons that there are different obstacles in each of these
forms of media, but like.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
Why if it.

Speaker 5 (08:43):
I'll throw some stats out there to like show why
it's so crazy. Ninety percent of menstruating people experience period
pain some kind of period pain, which the medical term
for that is dysmenteria. And thirty percent of menstruating people
experience severe period pain, meaning pain that is bad enough
that you cannot go about your daily routine like what

(09:05):
you would normally be doing. And so thirty percent of
menstruating people's that millions of people's that's.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Like in the world.

Speaker 5 (09:13):
That's like back of the Napkin math that I did
by myself. So it's not you know, don't don't quote
me on it, but.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
This isn't a math show.

Speaker 5 (09:21):
That's fine, Yeah, but thirty percent of menstruating people worldwide
is about five.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Hundred and twenty two million people, So that's like over
half a billion people.

Speaker 5 (09:31):
Third in severe pain multiple times a year, like not
just once in a while.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
But like a lot frequently.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
Yeah, and yet we don't like it is not talk
about Yeah no.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
And it still feels like I mean, I and this
like extends to so many areas of medical study, but
because it's still so dominated by men. There are so
many areas of medicine I mean very often with I mean,
you could extend it to trans people, you could extend
it to I mean people with wombs. Definitely. It's just
like the studies won't exist unless you can monetize them

(10:07):
in a way that like satisfies that machine. I like,
this is sort of a tangent, but I recently talks
to someone who had their doctorate in smell studies, like
old factory studies. She's really cool, and she is talking
about how like she was like publicly mocked on the
internet for having this PhD because no one cares about funding.

(10:33):
A sense that the vast majority of people deal with
every single day, that there are all these misunderstandings about
literally affects everyone, but no one cares unless the only
way you can get funding is if it's going to
sell perfumer candles. And I feel like with menstruating people,
it's like, well, can it sell a product and if not,
we don't care. And suffering is an assumed part of

(10:56):
having a uterus.

Speaker 5 (10:58):
You're like, oh, but it goes so much deeper than that,
because like, Okay, there's five hundred and twenty two people
worldwide in severe pain like multiple times a year, up
to twelve times a year, and like, my take is
I would pay any amount of money for a medication
that would help me not be in pain that would

(11:19):
actually work, and so would probably most of those five
hundred and twenty two million people. And yet why is
the pharmaceutic There's like, no, there's no markets that are
that big in the pharmaceutical industry anymore. Like this is
like cure the common cold kind of like opportunity and.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
They're just like, oh no, thank you, Like might all exists?

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yucky?

Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, but it's it isn't really about that, like it, yes,
there's the profit motive, but there's also just like do
we give a shit about that? Are there women in
these pharmaceutical companies like making the decisions about where the
research funding is going to go? Is there knowledge that
this many people are in this much pain and desperate

(12:01):
for a solution?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
I don't know, probably not I'm not a pharmaceutical person, right.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, another little kind of tangent is that we recently
on an episode, talked about how I was about to
have a hysterectomy. I since had that hysterectomy, and so
far it's only been about two months, but I haven't
had period pain since, so it seems to be doing
the trick. But I paid out of pocket nearly six

(12:30):
thousand dollars for the surgery the hospital build my insurance.
Guess how much money for the hysterectomy. One hundred thirty
seven thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, So I was like, what the fuck I have
to pay six thousand dollars. I was like, well, I
guess I don't have to pay one hundred and thirty
seven thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
But yeah, it's like it's obscene, and it's the only
thing that I've found be like a satisfactory resolution to
my horrible period pain. Yeah, because I was on birth
control for many, many years and it did do a
lot to reduce or eliminate my pain, but I had

(13:14):
side effects from the birth control, so I was like,
I don't want that. So, you know, I already talked
at length about it on that other episode, But yeah,
it is. It's just such a fucking nightmare for so
many people.

Speaker 5 (13:27):
I know you talked on that other episode because I
just listened to it about this and about like suspected endometriosis,
and so I I, over the last year have paid
over ten thousand dollars out of pocket just to get
a diagnosis, not even an official diagnosis, but like a
diagnosis of suspected endometriosis. After twenty two years of having

(13:51):
exactly the symptoms of endometriosis and asking dozens of doctors
about it, I had to pay out of pocket so
much money to see a specialist because edometriosis specialists don't
take insurance generally, because insurance doesn't reimburse properly for that treatment.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
And I wonder why that might be.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Almost like they don't give it.

Speaker 5 (14:14):
Yeah there, but my question is so like and then
the other part of the ten thousand dollars was on
like pelvic floor physical therapy and all the other things
that you know, like a nutritionist that is supposed to
help you be able to like eat more, anti inflammatory
and like all these things that your insurance doesn't cover.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
Who knows if they help or not. You know, it's
not linear.

Speaker 5 (14:35):
But like my question is, did they end up finding
endometriosis when they did your hysterectomy or adnomiosis?

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yes? Both?

Speaker 4 (14:43):
Okay, so that explains it.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah. So I also didn't have an official diagnosis of
endometriosis because they have to do a whole other surgery
to even officially diagnose it. But they just took my
word for it. They're like, oh, you've had this horrible
pain for your entire like adolescent and adult life, and
you don't want to have children. Great, we believe you
about both things. Here's your surgery. That'll be one hundred

(15:06):
bazillion dollars case. Yeah, but like I.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Meant, that was the best case scenario after years of
fighting for.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
It, right exactly. But yeah, they discovered not as much
endometrisis as I thought I might have, but they did
find some lesions. And then they also did they like,
you know, I don't know, cut my uterus open.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
Right right, they did an autopsy on your uterus?

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah? Yeah, basically, Also, okay, this might just be the
most like tangenty episode ever. But so Jamie, you were
kind enough to pick me up from the hospital after
my surgery, and I was like so loopy and in
so much pain. They like definitely did not keep me
at the hospital long enough. No, they didn't.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
They literally like catapulted you into into our back seat.
And then I was like ah, and.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
I was like crying in the backseat because I was
in so much pain. They didn't give me adequate pain killers.
Like it was it was a nightmare. But I knew.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
I knew that you weren't doing well because you asked
me to turn down the Moon and Roots soundtrack, which
has never happened before.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I only have the vaguest memory of that. I do
have a clearer memory of you phrasing an aspect of
my surgery as I gave birth to my own uterus,
because so they they removed my cervix, they pulled my
uterus out through my vagina, and so I gave birth

(16:30):
to my own uterus, and then they sewed the top
of my vagina shut. Just awesome stuff happening all around.
But anyway, that all hurt a lot, and so I
was crying.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
But that's like the way, that's like the easiest recovery.

Speaker 5 (16:44):
That's what I've heard. Is that like because they don't.
They don't have to cut you open. So you're like
not healing from all that, you're just.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
I mean have I did have some like laparoscopically done
tiny little incisions on my abdomen. They're already like healed.
Everything's good there. But yeah, anyway, so they did an
autopsy on the uterus that I gave birth to, and
it was discovered that I have what's it called adenomiosis.

Speaker 5 (17:10):
Atomiosis is where which where that well, you say, you're
the one that I just had you, but it's.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Basically where your uterine lining that should be, you know,
inside the you know, empty part of your uterus that
it grows and then it sheds during menstruation. That uterine
lining grows within the walls, like it's kind of embedded
within the walls.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
In the muscle.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, and I suspect that's what was probably causing me
so much pain all those years. Yeah, because again they
found endometriosis, but it wasn't super severe. But yeah, the
I don'tomiosis, it's a bitch. I'll tell you what.

Speaker 5 (17:52):
I've had A don'tomiosis described to me as Endo's nasty sister.
Oh okay, but also described to me as fudge ripple
ice cream, where the fudge is the because they're trying
to describe like how the endometrial tissue is like inside
the muscle, and they're like, it looks like fudge ripple

(18:12):
ice cream, like, but the fudge is the end because
it bleeds inside and so it leaves these like stripes
and like swollen parts of the muscle.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
And it's like, yeah, that sounds like it fucking hurts.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Like I will never look at fudge ripple the same
way again.

Speaker 4 (18:26):
I know that doctor did ruin that for me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Okay, So back to Judy bloom Slash.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Are you there so interesting? I'm like, okay, fine, I
guess I'll talk about that. It's a good movie.

Speaker 5 (18:39):
Oh but also the one thing it is a good
thing to talk about because the WHO estimates that one
in ten people with uteruses has endometriosis.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Huge number of people, yes.

Speaker 5 (18:49):
Huge number of people, and it is there is a
an average delay in diagnosis of seven to ten years
between the onset of symptoms and actually getting a diagnosis
when it is diagnosed at all. So this is extremely
important to talk about because if someone has severe period
pain and has had it most of their life. They
probably have endometriosis, but it's probably going to take them

(19:11):
years to get it diagnosed and treated because also the
treatment that we have for it is surgery, which is
expensive and often not covered or reimbursed by surgery. And
also that surgery guess what it's really good at, and
guess what it's really not good at? Tell us really
good at restoring fertility, really bad at taking away pain?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Oh, I wonder why you have again, o, people of
viewters is only valued for their ability to reproduce and
bear children. And do we not give a shit about
their pain at all? Hmmm?

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, and also I mean not for nothing, even if
you do want kids, that doesn't mean that you, like
you shouldn't be in constant pain. Like it's like it's
not even it's it just drives me. And like speaking
to your point, Kate, like two of my closest friends
of and Caitlin you are one of them, has been
like stuff tremendously with endo for years. And Caitlin, it

(20:03):
took you years to be able to get the hysterectomy done.
And then my other friend, you know, she was only
able to find out that she had ended up metriosis
because she had to have a different procedure done. And
they're like, oh, also we found this, and she was like, well,
at least something like I know, but thanks for the confirmation,

(20:23):
and that's the only way that she's gotten, you know,
any treatment cleared.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
I also feel like there's so little validation given. Like
one thing I learned doing the podcast talking to a
pain scientist, like like a pain specialist who is a
psychologist who specializes in like how the brain processes and
like feels pain. Did this incredible study where there were
these young women who experienced all experienced period pain, severe

(20:50):
period pain. She brought them together in a group and
did basically like group therapy where they all like shared
about their experiences. They gave them some education and some
like coping strategy jeez, but it was all like basically
just them talking to each other, and they found that
their pain level when they self reported their pain levels
after these sessions for up to a year afterwards, they

(21:10):
reported lower pain.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
So literally our brain And it makes sense if you
think about like our brains, if we feel like we
are alone in our pain, like there is no one
there to support us, like no one believes us like
we're in pain and we don't know why, and that's scary.
Our brains are going to escalate those pain signals. Our
brains don't like that experience. They're going to be like,

(21:33):
something's really wrong. You're feeling all these negative emotions as well.
That hurts more. And so like the fact that we
are not taken seriously at the doctor when we are
talking about our period pain, the fact that we're not
given explanations that it doesn't seem important to say like, hey,
here's why you're in pain, here's what is hurting, and

(21:54):
here are some things you can do. Those all actually
make our pain worse. And the taboo against talking about
our periods, the way we are trained to not talk
even to each other about our periods, actually makes us
be in more pain.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
And a lot a big part of all of this
is the lack of media representation and the lack of
just normalization of menstruating and the side effects that come
along with it, including pain. Because again, like we were like,
which movies could we do? Well, there's Carrie and we've
already done it, but.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
It's like we've done it, and also what can we
take away? It was like.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Horrible scary trauma associated with periods. There's a couple movies
that kind of half explicitly acknowledged periods, but also they're
sort of metaphorical as far as turning red and ginger
snaps where it's like puberty turns you into.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
An animal, which and also we've also already covered those too,
and we have all to cover those. There's only so
many like that's it, right, wild.

Speaker 5 (23:04):
And I feel like, I like, I feel like those
metaphoric things are like they're so great and I love
them and I'm glad that they're out there.

Speaker 4 (23:09):
But I'm also like I want to talk.

Speaker 5 (23:11):
Literally, like I want to speak very specifically about this.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
I really love. I mean, this is like I guess
starting to get into the movie, but I really love.
I don't even remember ever really being like this. I
mean I remember being like when, well, we'll talk about it,
but like, I do like that these these young girls
are very charmingly obsessed with their periods and they're like
where is it?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Like there would not relate.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I love the intensity. The intensity of a twelve year
old is just like unmatched, unmatched.

Speaker 5 (23:45):
This captured it so well, that intensity, and like both
being terrified of it and being like, but I wanted
to have in right now, but I need it.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
And then yeah, and then like you know, you're whoever
in your life is like helping you through that, you're
or you're like your mom being like no rush, Yeah,
it kinda sucks so bad forever. But anyways, anyways, should
we should we get into our history with the movie.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah? Yeah, so' so Kate, tell us about your yeah,
relationship with the source material if any the movie, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
Yeah, So I definitely had Judy Blue. I know that
I like read Judy Blue books. I was a big reader,
Like when I was a kid, I lived on top
of a mountain in May. No, it was for it
was for sad reasons. Nothing. It was because we didn't
have cable and I was only allowed one hour of
TV or no, I was allowed half an hour of
TV a day and mostly we just got PBS.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
And so it was like, Kaitlin, you're similar similar.

Speaker 5 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, so we got two channel, we got three channels.
One of them came in clearly and it was BBS.
And so it was just like me and so I
read a lot, but I was more of like a
red wall Narnia kid like more on the fantasy side,
and so these like the Judy Bloom I read them
because I read everything, but I was just kind of like, okay,

(25:04):
like there's not a lot of talking mice in this,
so I'm not really into it. But I do think
that was partly because my parents are hippies and were
very like upfront with me and like straight shooters when
it came to like, oh, here's what's gonna happen when
you get your period. Oh here's why this happens. Like
my parents would like walk around naked after showers like

(25:26):
air drying, and it was just sort of like that
was not something that I was like curious about in
that way where I was just like, I think for
people who didn't have that kind of like openness in
their family, I think Judy Bloom books were like way
more important.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
And then the movie.

Speaker 5 (25:41):
I'd never seen it before, but I knew that it
had come out, and when I was researching for Cramped,
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Know this, but are you there, God, it's me.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
Margaret is one of the most banned books just because
it talks openly about periods and the people getting their
periods are not like traumatized.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
They're they're like, it's like positive, like to this day.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
I mean, I think we're going to see another round
of this book being banned or an escalation on bands
that already exist. It's just like ridiculous.

Speaker 5 (26:14):
Well, they're trying to pass bills in Florida that are
like you can't say the word period in school, like shit.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
Like but what if you're what if you need to
write a sentence? We don't know, we don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Just said, yeah, Jamie, how about you? What's your situation.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
I a very specific relationship with Judy Bloom books. I
was also a huge reader as a kid. I'm bragging.
I'm I'm a big reader to this day. I love
reading books and I reread anti intellectual Uh there. I
reread because it's a quick read when you're an adult woman.

(26:56):
But I reread are you there? God it to me
Margaret yesterday because I remember, I don't like specific. I
know that I read it. I think I read like
every Judy Bloom book that was available, including her book
for adults Summer Sisters.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
And we just talked about this on another episode.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, because we've both read it and I was like, oh,
this is for me, but then it was juicy, so
I kept going. And then also, there's another Judy Bloom
adult book that I learned about yesterday that I was like, well,
why haven't I Maybe it was banned at my library,
but she wrote another her first Anyway, I read the book,
and I watched a documentary that came out a couple

(27:31):
of years ago about Judy Bloom. So I'm just like
riding high on Judy Fumes.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
But her first, Wow, Judy Flume.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
I've just I've just like mainlined Judy all yesterday to
the point where I was like, oh, yeah, I have
to watch the movie we're talking about. But yeah, so
she her first like novel for adults was called Wifey
and it was about like she wrote it suspiciously right
before she left her husband, and it was about like
cheating on your husband. And everyone was so scandalized and

(28:03):
they're like, Judy Bloom's career is over and then guess
what she It wasn't like it was a super bestseller,
and everyone was like more horny adult Judy Bloom. But
my Judy Bloom book. And I literally had I think
at one point, and I hated her for a while,
even though I'd read so many of her books. I
liked her books for kids. The Fudge books are super fun.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yes, I loved her.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yes, like her. She writes for literally every age level,
so well, it's like amazing. But I loved the Fudge books.
And then I read are You There Got It's Me Margaret.
And then when I was Margaret's age, like eleven twelve,
I got diagnosed I don't even know, with scoliosis. And
then I received five trillion copies of the book DEENI,

(28:47):
and it made me want to fucking rip my head.
For a while, I was a Judy Bloom fan, and
then I was a Judy Bloom hater because I'm like,
if another aunt gives me a copy of fucking Demie,
I'm gonna suffocate myself with my own back price. Like
I just really hated And I mean I read it
the first time. I was but then I still like
in the I kept them all out of sight. I
have so many different additions, Like my aunt was like,

(29:10):
I have the first edition and then they're like, here's
the one with a new cover, and I'm like, well,
someone fucking talk to me about the fact that it
sucks to wear a back brace. But they're like, no,
here's Deanie. But that is the beauty and the function
of Judy Blue, I think for a lot of young
people of all genders, is like and I remember another
Judy Blue book that really stuck with me was Blubber,

(29:31):
which was about I mean not I mean, you know,
you could hope for a different title, but it was
about a girl being bullied for her weight in the seventies.
But it's told from the perspective of someone who's friends
with the bullies but is afraid to stand up to them.
And like, I remember being really impacted by that because
you're like, oh my god, the protagonist of this book

(29:52):
is like kind of evil, but also it could so
easily be me to be afraid to stand up to
people like I. Her books are amazing. Deanie can suck
it because also the thing with Danie, you know that
was a book. Yeah, well, because you didn't have scoliosis, Caitlin.
Every person with scoliosis knows who fucking Deanie is and
the problem with Deanie and it's not you know, I'm

(30:15):
sure that I hope that there's other books about young
girls with scoliosis now, because it you know, disproportionately affects,
says girls because they grow fast. Whatever. But it just
I hated that bitch so much because the thing with
Deanie was her character was like, she was so beautiful
and she was going to be a model, but then
she got a back brace and she had to like

(30:36):
develop a personality. And my take on Deani at the
time was like, oh, congratulations on being so fucking hot, Deani,
because some of us didn't start that far ahead. Some
of us looked weird and then they got a back brace. Anyways,
I had a real bone to pick with Deani for
many years. I should go back and reread it, but whatever,

(30:56):
did I have something else to yell about it with
regards to Deanie? Uh oh oh, yes, that the thing
that actually stuck with me with Deanie. That turns out
and I want to talk a bit more about Judy
Bloom Loore because I learned all about I mean, the
entire Reagan administration was like, we've got to kill Judy Bloom.
We're gonna kill her, and meanwhile, she's like the sweetest

(31:16):
person in the whole world. The documentary was myth But
something that I thought was really beautiful about it was
that kids would write to her that felt like they
couldn't talk to their own parents or the adults in
their lives, and she would respond, and like she became
a pen pal for some of her young readers, for
like I'm Gonna Cry for like twenty years, and she

(31:38):
like went to there was this girl, Laurie Kim, and
she like had all of these like you know, very
normal problems growing up. But then she had a bad
relationship with her parents. And she wrote Judy bloom when
she was going to graduate from college and she was like,
will you come instead? And Judy bloom went, It's like, oh,
like she's just so great. Anyways, the scene that about

(32:02):
Deanie that was the reason the book was banned Hot
Girls with Scoliosis is that's okay, we're not going to
ban that from the library. But there's a scene in
Deanie I remember so specifically where Deanie masturbates and she
like figures out what masturbation is. It's literally a page,
but it's the book was banned for the entire Reakud
administration because they're like, Deanie cannot be masturbating anyways, Big

(32:28):
Judy Bloomhead fucked Deanie. But I'm glad that she she
Deani literally taught me how to masturbate. How embarrassing is that?

Speaker 4 (32:37):
What a like? What a perfect?

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Like?

Speaker 5 (32:39):
Your aunts are giving you this like scoliosis book and
you're like, fuck you, I'm gonna learn masturbation.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Uh it was I'm trying to remember how I want to.
I should reread Deanie, but it just stills me with
like twelve year old rage. But it like described masturbation
in a way that like actually made sense to me.
It wasn't like I am Deani and I am going
to masturbate. It was like I have this feeling and
then I do this. I was like, I do that

(33:06):
and you're like, wait, there's a name for it. So
Judy Blum is awesome. And if your family is afraid
to talk to you about your own body, I feel
like she to this day is a very useful source. Caitlin,
what's your history with this book and with Judy Bloom?

Speaker 2 (33:26):
I was also a big reader as a youth.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Look at us, look at us?

Speaker 5 (33:32):
Shocking that three reader girls became podcaster? Wow shocking, no one?

Speaker 2 (33:40):
But yeah, I loved Judy bloom books. I also really
enjoyed the Fudge books and then I'm guessing my mom
put are you there? God is me? Margaret in my hands,
and she's like, read this because it.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
Was like books of our mom's generation.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Right right right. And I read it, And obviously this
was like thirty years ago, so I barely remember it.
But the one thing I do remember is not being
able to relate at all to Margaret being excited about
the prospect of having her period. Okay, because I think
I read this, Yeah, I definitely read this before I
got my period, and I was I was dreading it

(34:20):
like I knew what a period was. It did not
seem pleasant. I was not interested in getting it, and
you're right, and I think I just like instinctively knew
how bad my periods were going to be. I don't know,
but I had my period for like six months before
I admitted to anyone, like my friends at least, that
I had it. I was like in denial. I was like, no,

(34:42):
that's just blood that comes out of my body every month.
There's not my period. I could not handle the fact
that I got my period. I did not want it
at all. And now I don't have it anymore, yay.
But anyway, but otherwise I think I really enjoyed the book,
and I am that I related to Margaret's, you know,

(35:04):
journey around figuring out her religious identity or perhaps lack
thereof that kind of like spiritual journey, because I was
raised without religion as well, and I got like bullied
for it in my like conservative small town, and so
I imagine that was something that I connected with. But yeah,

(35:25):
Judy Bloom Rocks we talked about this recently, Jamie, but
we I read Forever, and that book taught me about sex,
and then Somemer sisters taught me even more about sex.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
I never read Forever, but when they were recapping it, and
the documentary is on Prime unfortunately, but it's there, and yeah,
I was like, oh, Forever's dirty. And they were like
these like when Judy Bloom was doing signings, and it's
like all these young people who were like, I want
to know how sex works. She would tak she would

(35:57):
have like a little conversations with them at the front
where she's like, how does your family feel about you
buying this book? And they would either be like they
have no idea or like they feel okay because they
don't want to tell me what sex is. And she's
like okay, but like its just she just seems like
the coolest person in the world.

Speaker 5 (36:15):
She seems like she genuinely cares that like right, but
like young girls know something about something, you know.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah, and like never wavered on that, and I just
think that that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah. I like that.

Speaker 5 (36:30):
She doesn't seem like she has an agenda. She's not
trying to like push any specific like way of thinking
about things other than just like here's information and like
here's how this girl feels about it, and here's how
this girl feels about it, and that's okay, like right.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Which has a very normalizing effect, and that's what we
need from media. The other thing. So this movie, I
didn't see it right when it came out, but I actually,
funny story, I had plans to see it with two
of my friends. Let's put a pin in that I
had to bail at the last minute because I had

(37:07):
such bad period cramps. The three of us went to
Denny's together and I started feeling really really horrible, and
I like had I went to the bathroom did my
business there, but I was like, guys, I have to
bail on the movie. I'm so sorry. So they took
me home and I missed the movie. But the reason
me and these two friends we're gonna go is that, Okay,

(37:27):
you know when you're in a little group chat, and
the group chat has a funny little name. My group
chat with these two friends is called the Margarets. Oh,
named after the book because this was before the movie
came out. But the reason we're called the Margarets is
because we So it's my friend Sammy friend of the show,

(37:50):
and my friend Nicki and I was at Sammy's house
and we were like text pestering Nicky because she was
supposed to arrive at Sammy's as well. She was late,
and so we we're just like text bombing her, being
like Nikki, where are you are you here? Yet? Where
are you are you there? Nikki? It's us Margaret And
then it just stuck and then we like renamed the

(38:10):
group chat the Margarets, and that has been our name
of our friendship for the past like eight years or something.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
That's so cool.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
I did not know. Yeah, it was like the new
Lord just dropped. I did not I know of that
group text, but I didn't know the lore.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Wow, yeah, this is the Lord. So so this this uh,
Margaret and the Margarets has a special place in my heart.
But anyway, so yeah, I guess let's take a quick
break and then.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
We'll We've been recording for forty minutes, so we'll if
you read that, and.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
We haven't even started the recap. But here we are
normalizing periods, so we're doing good work. But yeah, let's
take a quick break and then we'll come right back.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
And we're back now that we're talking about periods. I
know we have to recap the movie, but I was thinking,
did I. I'm sure I've mentioned it on the show
at some point in the last like almost ten years,
but I got my period when I was in eighth grade.
I think I was kind of ambivalent towards it, like
I didn't feel one way or another. I was just

(39:23):
wearing a back brace and trying to be invisible, and
that was my job, so no one cared if I
was bleeding. I was invisible. But I, because I was
like kind of a little bit behind most of my friends,
I kind of decided that I was never going to
get my period and that I was going to be
like married Magdalen, and I thought that like it, I

(39:44):
was like a supernatural being who is never going to
get their period, and like and that made me really powerful.
And then I got it. And then I was like,
did I just shit myself? And my mom was like no,
and I was like, oh.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I know that part of the story that you thought
you getting your period was you shitting yourself.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
People think that that's the same thing.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
I had Wendy Zuckerman from Science Versus on and that
is exactly what she said. Is she the first time
she got her period? She thought she shot herself and
the word shart in an Australian accent over and over
and over again.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
That so funny, good, that is, I mean, I and
it also I mean but like period commercialism, like you know,
I'm sure that some people still are like is my
period blue? Like what is this? But even though but
I was expecting, like, you know, beautiful, like perfect primary
color red and it so it makes sense that people

(40:35):
think they shit themselves. It's yeah, it's just not everyone's experience. Yeah. Anyways,
what happens in Are you there God to meet market
all tell you?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Okay, So it's nineteen seventy and eleven year old girl
named Margaret played by Abby Ryder Forston comes home from
summer camp back to her family in New York City
ever heard of it? We meet Margaret's mom, Barbara played
by Rachel McAdams, her dad herb played by Benny Saftie,
as well as her paternal grandmother Sylvia. It's like by

(41:09):
Kathy Bade's question mark of Unsinkable Molly Brown fame. Margaret
soon learns that she and her parents will be moving
to New Jersey, something that Margaret deeply resents, so she
prays to God, seemingly for the first time, because we'll
learn that she was not raised with any religion, and

(41:31):
she says, are you there, God, it's me Margaret. Hey,
that's the name of the movie. And she says, please
stop this move to New Jersey from happening, or at
the very least, please make it so that New Jersey
doesn't suck too bad. God does not stop the move,
so Margaret and her family arrive in Jersey. A girl

(41:53):
from the neighborhood named Nancy invites Margaret over, so they're
hanging out. Nancy common on Margaret's flat chest and she
boasts that she's already started growing bosoms. Nancy also asks
if Margaret has ever kissed a boy. She admits that
she hasn't either, but she practices a lot on her bedpost.

(42:18):
Then Nancy's older brother, Evan, and his friend Moose show up.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
We just never in neither the book nor the movie,
we never question the name Moose.

Speaker 5 (42:29):
It's literally it's like Margaret, Nancy, Evan Moose, Like they
call him that at school, Like I guess we don't
see his teachers call him that, but that's the.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Feeling you get that they also call him Moose. Yeah,
it's very seventies in a way where it's very how
I imagine the seventies, Like, yeah, they were just kids
named Moose. They would mow your lawn.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
I don't know, Yeah, certainly, And so Margaret seems to
take a liking to Moose. Nancy then invites Margaret to
join her secret club, in which they cannot wear socks.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Nancy's a freak the no socks thing.

Speaker 5 (43:06):
Did Like, I loved that because it was I remember
in seventh grade, I like had a new group of
friends and they all wore like the Adidas with the
three stripes, and I was like, I have to get
these shoes, mom, And then my mom bought me like
the knockoffs with four stripes, and I was like.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
No, that was I think. My thing in middle school
was live strong bracelets. You had to have a live
strong bracelet or you were not living strong.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
So true, so true. Anyway, Margaret complies to the no
sock rule and she lives to regret it. But Margaret
returns home and she talks slash praise to God again
and asks God to make her boobs grow. Then it's

(43:56):
the first day of sixth grade at her new school.
Margaret meets the other girls in the Secret Club, Jane
and Gretchen. Also in their class is a boy who
all the girls think is cute named Philip Lee Roy.
There's another boy who they all think is like dweeby

(44:17):
Norman Fisher. And then there's also a girl who is
far taller and more developed than mostly everyone else, and
her name is Laura Danker, who has a reputation because
she lets boys feel her up behind the A and
P supermarket, or at least that's the rumor that Nancy spreads.

(44:40):
Laura innocence truly yes, And they also meet their teacher,
mister Benedict, and it's his first year teaching and he's
nervous and he's nice and he's a good teacher. Anyway,
after school is the first secret club meeting at Nancy House.

(45:01):
Nancy establishes more rules in addition to the no sock rule,
such as you have to wear a bra. If anyone
gets their period, they have to tell the others about it.
They have to make boy books and write about the
boys that they like, which they have to show each other,
and they can never lie about them, a rule that

(45:21):
Margaret immediately breaks because she denies her crush on Moose.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Well, I mean, admitting that you're lusting after someone named
Moose can't be an easy journey.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
This is true. Yes, that night, Margaret tells her mom
that she wants to get a bra, and what I
thought was a very cute scene where Margaret is super embarrassed.
Barbara is like, are you sure you need one? Bras
suck shit. It's like okay, mom, there, yeah, but she's like, yes,

(45:54):
of course, we'll get you a bra. Because Barbara is
a very sweet, tender, supportive mother, and.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
Rachel McAdams is so good in this part. I know that,
Like when this movie came out, people were like she
was snubbed for I was like, I agree. She was
like I thought she did such a great job.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
Also, the costume designer was her enemy in this, like
the clothes they put her in and the clothes they
put Kathy Bates in. I was like, all the favors
that they could have been doing for Rachel McAdams they
were doing for Kathy Baits.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
And Kathy Bates was really turning some interesting looks in
this movie. There's yeah, at very least I had my notes.
I was like, at least they let Rachel McAdams have
the coolest hairstyle available. Yes, like she did have the
coolest seventies hair out of all of the mom's. Just
like so many of these scenes, even though it's like,

(46:46):
you know, we went through this decade later, I was like,
oh my god, I never had that first bra shopping experience.
My aunt just slipped me. I had, like I remember
my first bra had Winnie the Pooh on it, and
I was like, I felt so infantilized. Wow, But I'm
like better, why or that nothing? We'll take it.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
That's amazing, Okay. And then so speaking of Margaret's mom, Barbara,
she's adjusting to being a stay at home mom. She's
learning how to cook. She goes to a PTA meeting
in volunteers to be a part of every school committee
because she really wants to be like super involved with
Margaret's life and everything. Then Margaret's teacher, mister Benedict, announces

(47:27):
that they have to do this like year long research project,
and he suggests to Margaret that she does hers on
religion because she had said that she hates religious holidays
and does not consider herself to be religious because even
though her dad is Jewish and her mom is Christian again,
they raised her without religion and they're letting her choose

(47:49):
what religion she wants to be when she grows up.
She also mentions that she has never met her maternal grandparents,
so Margaret asks her mom about this, and Barbara reveals
that her super Christian parents more or less disowned her
when she married a Jewish man. And Margaret is appalled

(48:09):
by this and wonders, like, what kind of awful people
would do something like that, especially to someone as nice
as her mom. And then Barbara's like, enough of that,
Let's go bra shopping. Let's go Bra bra shopping. Barbara
says that get it, whoa yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahs. And
so Margaret gets her first bra, this little training bra,

(48:32):
which is super uncomfortable, and Margaret cannot wait to take
it off. But then there's a scene where she she
like stuffs it with socks and dances around her room.
It's very fun.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
Although I will say you're not allowed Matilda owns that song.
Sorry you can't.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Oh yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Will say one of my one of my few criticisms
of this movie, pretty uncreative needle drops. I was underwhelmed
by the seventies needle drops.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah, could have been a better soundtrack. Maybe they didn't
have the budget.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
It's a I mean, that's an expensive song to get true.
Yeah that Mattel the I agree, mauntil the perfected.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah. Okay. So at the next secret Club meeting, the
girls share their boy books and the three others, Nancy, Janey,
and Gretchen all put Philip Leroy in their book. This
is where like Margaret puts Moose, but she lies and
she says she also put Philip le Roy. Then they
compare brass sizes. Everyone has a training bra, except for Nancy,

(49:35):
who says that she does an exercise to grow her boobs.
So they all do the exercise together.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
For some reason, it involves screaming you.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Have to chant, and the chant goes, I must, I must,
I must increase my bust and we're like, exactly.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Totally Nancy. I do feel like everyone knew a kid
sort of like Nancy. It's just like she doesn't know
what she's talking about, but she is always speaking the
loudest and so like, I definitely like as a quiet kid,
was like, yeah, I guess she she must.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Must be right, Yeah, yeah, she's saying it loudly, yeah,
so confidently. Yeah. So then Margaret goes to visit grandma
Kathy Bates in the city. Margaret talks to God again
and says that maybe she'll try to decide what religion
she wants to be, so she asks her grandma if
she can go to temple with her. So they go,

(50:34):
but Margaret is pretty underwhelmed and she doesn't really feel
the presence of God. She also intends to go to
a Christian service to see what that's like. A couple
scenes later, she goes with Janie and her family to
their church.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
I appreciate representation of kids being like church regardless of religion,
Like our religious services are boring when you're twelve. Yeah,
like they're che there's just nothing to love.

Speaker 5 (51:03):
I had such a weird I like was watching her
go to these to like services with friends and like
try out different things.

Speaker 4 (51:09):
I like did that when I was a kid.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
I really well.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
It was mostly because I lived.

Speaker 5 (51:13):
Pretty far away from a lot of my friends and
so if we did a sleepover on Saturday, it was like, well,
you're going to church with us in the morning. And
I remember like going to a Catholic. I was raised Quaker,
which is also kind of nothing like it's mostly just
being quiet and so like I didn't really have any
like solid beliefs or anything. So I actually like related

(51:34):
to this part a lot, and I would go to
other services and just be like, I mean this is
so cool, and like going to a Catholic one and
like they were like you can't have a cracker and
I was like why and they were like, you're not
Gatholic and I was.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Like, okay, Yeah. I grew up between a couple different
faiths too, and never got to the finish line with
any of them, and so whatever the snack was, I
couldn't have it. You're like fuck.

Speaker 5 (52:00):
And it was always like it was always really interesting
to like, go see how other people spend the time
they don't want to spend a church in on a
Sunday morning, But it was always like, well, I'd rather
not do any of that.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Actually, a very formative memory for me was going to
a sleepover. The girl whose house it was stole the
VHS of the porn movie that her parents had rented,
so we watched it and we were like, oh my god.
And it was the first time I ever saw like
I didn't know what oral sex was, but I saw
a blowjob being performed, and I was like, what's that? Yeah,

(52:36):
I was like ten, I think. And then the next day,
like they took all the people to sleep over to
church and they like handed out bibles, and again, because
I was raised not in religion at all, they hand
me a Bible and they're like, okay, Caitlin turned to whatever,
fucking Matthew whatever. And I didn't know how to cause

(52:57):
it wasn't just like a page.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Number, No, it's not an intuitive system, not fucking at all.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
So I had no idea how to find what page
we were supposed to be on. And so I'm just
sitting there for like what felt like hours just sort
of like scrambling through the book, flipping through the pages,
and then like my friend next to me had to
like do it for me. But I like remember feeling
so humiliated, and then I was like, fuck this religion
for making me feel embarrassed. I'll never even consider it.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
God humiliated me today.

Speaker 4 (53:26):
What an educational twenty four hours for you?

Speaker 3 (53:29):
Truly, That's why it's such a formative memory for me. Yeah, yeah,
that is so that God thinking about like weird sort
of dirty stuff that you would do at sleepovers as
a kid was so like, do you guys remember on
like aim Smarter Child where it was literally a like
proto AI, yes and you if you typed to it,

(53:51):
it would type back. That was how I learned so
many sexual words because I would go to my friend
Rhyme's house. We would go to her house for sleepovers
and she I think she was like, and I say
this with love. She's kind of the nancy of our
friend group, where she talked a lot.

Speaker 5 (54:09):
Every friend group needs a Nancy because otherwise nothing gets
done exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
She talked a lot, but did she know what she
was saying. But she would she would like make us
gather around her like family's desktop computer after her parents
went to sleep, and then would like send smarter child
dirty messages and we'd be like whoa, and because smarter
child will always respond like I cannot reply to that,
and we're like oh. And then there was also a

(54:35):
smarter child that was specifically Austin Powers three themed that
would say that would say like, yeah, baby, I can't
respond to that.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
That questions too randy. Well, speaking of kids getting into
dirty little hijinks, Margaret and her friends look at a
diagram of a penis in an anatomy textbook and they're like,
oh my god, why does it look like that? And

(55:06):
then they also look at a Playboy magazine that belongs
to Margaret's dad and they wonder if their boobs will
ever look like they do in the Playboy magazine. Meanwhile,
Margaret and everyone in her class get invited to a
party thrown by Norman Fisher that like, quote unquote, doeebye kid.

(55:29):
They all go to the party. They play Spin the Bottle,
they play two Minutes in the Closet, which is basically
seven minutes in Heaven. Margaret and Philip Leroy, the boy
that everyone has a crush on, get matched up, and
they go in the bathroom and he surprise kisses her.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
It's true, which is sort of what that whole game
is predicated on.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, it is very yucky, but like what eleven year
olds were able to have conversations about consent in the
in nineteen seventy.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
Yeah, that moment was the one where I was like,
oh my god, I'm so embarrassed for the actor playing
Philip leaving because it's just like a like a kid
trying to be cool and.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
You're like stop.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
That's actually one of the moments that I think that
the book out does the movie in where the book,
I think, far better, is actually like more sort of
thoughtful in its depiction of that, where like Margaret goes
through this like she was like, well that was uncomfortable.
I didn't love that, but I need to tell my
friends that I loved that, which so I thought that, Yeah,

(56:38):
the book was like a little more insightful because I
feel like the movie just presents it as like, Wow,
that was awesome, where like she actually has more of
an internal dialogue.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah. Yeah, the movie, it seems in the movie that
she's like swooning over this kiss and her friends are jealous.
So now Margaret has had her first kiss, but she
still hasn't started growing boobs or gotten her period. Gretchen
is the first of the group to get her period,

(57:07):
and Margaret is so jealous. All she wants is to
get her period so that she can be quote unquote
normal like everybody else, and she's super worried that she
will be a late bloomer.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
I like when Gretchen's like, everything's different, you wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
So then Margaret and Janie go to a pharmacy and
buy pads so that they can practice using them so
they can be ready when the time comes. Then Nancy
sends a postcard to Margaret saying that she got her period,
but we find out that she was lying because she
actually gets her period for the first time when she

(57:46):
and Margaret are in the city seeing the rockets together.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
This is where I get very confused, because like timeline wise,
there's this was like a montage of scenes and that
it was like Christmas time when the right and she
got this postcard from Nancy and she was like, oh,
they went to DC for President's Day weekend, which is
like when's that?

Speaker 2 (58:07):
And then January it's right.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
But then they go see the Rockets, and isn't that
just on during Christmas?

Speaker 3 (58:15):
I think they do it other times of the year,
or maybe they did it in the seventies, I don't know, But.

Speaker 4 (58:21):
Yet I thought the Rockets was like just a Christmas
time thing. Oh maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
No, I'm pretty sure they do other times of year,
but I think that Christmas it's like they're nutcracker Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah, yeah, I'm guessing. Like a couple months past when
they go into the city together, yeah, and Nancy gets
her period and Margaret feels betrayed that Nancy lied to her.
Then at school, Margaret gets grouped with Norman Fisher, Philip Leroy,
and Laura Danker for a project. Laura confronts Margaret about

(58:56):
her friend group being so cruel to Laura just because
of how she looks and like spreading rumors about her.
Oh Laura, Margaret realizes that she's been like a judge,
bad person. Meanwhile, Philip makes a mean comment about Margaret's
flat chest. Other things happen where like Margaret's parents cancel

(59:17):
her upcoming trip to Florida to visit Grandma Kathy Bates
because Barbara's parents are coming to visit because Barbara had
sent them a card and like they're trying to kind
of rekindle their estrange relationship.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
It's so hard to not feel for like literally everyone
in this setup. It's such a like beautiful, painful sequence
to watch because everyone's mad at Rachel mcadam's which makes
sense because her parents are anti Semitic weird us. But
you can also see that she like has this like
little girl part of her that just wants to like

(59:52):
believe that her parents don't suck. It's just so painful
to watch, Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
And then on top of all that, Margaret is still
mad at Nancy for lying. Margaret's confused spiritually because she's
talking and praying to God and looking for him but
she can't seem to find him, so things are bad.
It is the low point of the movie. Then Barbara's

(01:00:20):
parents aka Margaret's maternal grandparents arrive. It's awkward, and it's
even more awkward when Grandma Kathy Bates shows up unexpectedly
with her new fuck body.

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
Just like what amo again, Kathy Bates in this movie
is like, that's aspirational for me, and I'm like, I
want to be the New York City Jewish grandma wearing
these clothes going to Florida to like get laid.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
She's down there fun fucking oh God, making sexy little
comments about cholesterol. You're like, yes, sure, why not?

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Yup?

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yup? So then mark Its maternal grandparents are asking if
she's ever been to Sunday School, and Kathy Bates is
like no, because Margaret is Jewish, and Margaret is like, no,
I'm neither. I'm nothing. I don't even believe in God.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
Benny Saftie and Rachel McAdams are freaking out. They're like, God,
it's drama.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Yeah, Barbara feels horrible. Margaret storms out of the room,
and Margaret starts writing her research project on religion, where
she says, like, I thought you were supposed to be
able to pray to God and he would answer your prayers.
But I've prayed and prayed and things just keep getting worse.
No one seems to be listening to me, and it

(01:01:41):
just makes her feel very lust and alone. But her
mom comforts her and apologizes for how messy things got.
And then it's the last day of school. There's like
this carnival thing and Margaret approaches Laura Danker and basically
like extends and Olive brand and she's like, hey, want

(01:02:01):
to be friends? Want to come dance with me? And
Jane joins them as well. It feels like it's kind
of implied that Margaret either like won't be friends with
or won't be as close to Nancy and maybe Gretchen
much after this, and then in the denu Mall, we
see that Barbara has returned to teaching art. She's like

(01:02:24):
gotten a little better about like establishing boundaries and saying
no to being on all the school committees.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
I love that scene.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
It's really much where she's just like, oh, I don't
want to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
I don't want to, so no, thank you. Meanwhile, Margaret
is gearing up to go back to summer camp, but
before she does, she has a little chat with Moose,
who suggests that they hang out when she gets back
from camp, and she's giddy about it. And guess what
else makes her giddy? She gets her period right after this.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
He guys, yeah, right, God is real.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
God is real, and God gave Margaret her period or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
She's technically what God is like, I did. God is
literally just like Santa, like it's the same We're taught
the same thing, except God is like meaner Santa. Santa's
like very hands off when it comes to like the
pain of living well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Except he has this whole naughty list and he's like,
I'll give you cold.

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
It really depends. It depends on what sect of santa
Ism you are.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
God gives you kind of like spiritual coal. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Anyway, that's the end of the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
So let's take another break.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I will come right back.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
And we're back. I would love to start. I wanted
to just talk a little bit about book to screen
before we jump into the conversation. So we're all book
heads here. I know we joke about on the show
this being an anti book podcast, but it's just not true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
True.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Yeah. I blew through the book yesterday before watching the
documentary and then eventually watching the movie. I will say
that I feel like the third act of this movie,
after revisiting the book, I found kind of underwhelming, and
it felt like they were movie flying and making sure
that everything was resolved and that everything is going to

(01:04:32):
be okay from now on, with the exception of it
being clear that the maternal grandparents are not going to
be in their lives, like that is sort of the
only the one thing that's left unsatisfactory. And I mean,
I don't know. Judy Bloom says to that she likes
she thinks the movie is better than the book, so
who the fucking what?

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Yeah, And she said that, and I was also like
some wrong but whatever, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
How long has it been since she read the book?

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Yeah, let's egg Judy Bloom? But I did. I mean
I part of what I as I was like rereading it,
part of what I was remembering, Like that I really
like about Judy Bloom books is that there aren't these
neat conclusions that I sort of felt happened at the
end of this movie. One difference is that, you know,
Margaret has that same interaction with Moose the day she

(01:05:21):
gets her period, but Moose is I think more of
like typical pubescent boy and is like get out of
my way, see you later. Like it's just a more
authentic reaction than like, I'm the nice boy and I
hope you have an epic summer at camp. Should be
chill soon, which just doesn't feel as real, you know.
And Moose in general, I think like was portrayed a

(01:05:43):
little more realistically as like he clearly has a crush
on her but has been socialized to be like that.
It's gross other things, where with the issue between Laura
and Margaret is intentionally left unresolved in the book, which
I think is actually really because I as a kid,
I feel like that forces you to put yourself in

(01:06:03):
Margaret's position more. And the interaction between them at the
library and following her into the church is the same
where she's like, I'm so I feel so horrible and
I don't know. But in the book, like Margaret isn't
quite able to get the courage up to actually apologize.
She doesn't really stand up to Nancy, and she's just
sort of hoping that after summer she won't be as

(01:06:25):
close with Nancy. But there's no confrontation, there's no like
big moment of victory, which again just feels more realistic. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Imagine how hard it is as a twelve year old
to stand up to your domineering friend. It's like nearly
impossible for almost every kid.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
Would not have been me.

Speaker 5 (01:06:42):
No, There's also that the fact that like, you're gonna
keep going to school with these kids, like, yeah, this
is the end of the school year, but like you're
gonna be with them for the next like six years.
Like it's not like, oh, everything has to be resolved
at the end of the year. It's like I'll see
them next year and things will be the same and
or different.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Right, I mean, And yeah again, I was thinking about
Blubber where I don't I mean, I don't remember the
beat for beat of that book. But it more puts
you in the position of like, what if you were
a bystander to bullying and what if you weren't able
to get the courage up versus this character has does
the quote unquote right thing to do? Which isn't I mean,
that's not like a story told that way is bad

(01:07:22):
or less valuable. It just feels not Judy Bloom to me,
because it's supposed to like force you to sit in
that and be like what would I do? And then
the final thing was the way that her mom's story
resolves where and this feels more of maybe a thing
of the times, but it's also something that's like very
tied to Judy Bloom's life of like she didn't start

(01:07:44):
writing until she was staying at home alone with her
two kids while her first husband, who she would like
later write best selling fiction about fantasizing about cheating on
like when to work in the city, Like you know,
I think they there's like there's to some extent, Margaret's
mom is like a self insert character for her. But

(01:08:05):
at the end of the book, she doesn't get that
satisfying conclusion of like she's balancing being a housewife and
still fulfilling her passion. Like in the book, it's sort
of left as like, a this sucks for her mom,
but she's going to try to make the best of it.
And I don't know, like I not that I wanted
the movie. I think I think I get what the

(01:08:27):
movie is doing. It's very movie and if I hadn't
read the book, I don't think it would have like
registered for me at all. But I just I do
kind of like when movies for kids don't end quite
so neatly. But that's really my only problem with the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Yeah, the other thing that I read because I didn't
reread the book, but I read listicals of what the
difference is between the book and the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
The movie adaptations the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
And one thing that I saw was that the movie
omits so with the Laura Danker character. I think it's
present in the book that Nancy makes up rumors about
her that she like lets boys.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Yes, but that there's a confrontation.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Well, there's also a component of the book that their teacher,
mister Benedict leers at Laura Danker and like chooses her
to be like his partner, where he's like demonstrating them
how to do a square dance or whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:09:34):
Yeah, so I wonder if they recorded that but cut
it out, because there was the square dancing scene that
like had nothing to do with anything, right, And I
wonder if they like filmed it and then like cut
that storyline out.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
I alsought this was just my read on it. It
was also unclear to me that when Nancy was insisting
that the teacher was doing this not to not believe women,
but Nancy is known to telefib and make shit up,
and so to me, at least in the book, it
was unclear if that was actually happening or if it
was Nancy projecting. But that definitely is like they don't

(01:10:08):
even get close to touching it because again they need
to movie by the movie and be like, mister Benedict
is a great teacher, no notes, not weird at all?

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
Right, Yeah, which, I you know, for this movie, I
was okay with.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
Yeah. I mean I don't think that the tone of
this movie that that really fit, And at least in
my opinion, it was kind of unclear in the book
whether that was Nancy Nancy ing or if that was
something that was actually taking place, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Right, because obviously there are many cases of grown adult men, yeah,
being really gross toward underage girls. But yeah, I'm like,
does this movie have the space or the tone to
address something like that?

Speaker 4 (01:10:53):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
I think maybe not? So.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
My tenth grade art teacher was like, Jamie, you know,
it would be really cool if you went to the
park and drank a whole of cough syrup and then
took pictures and then showed me the picture You're just
like And I was like, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Remember you telling me this story for it, and it's
ro so frightening. But yeah, I think otherwise, the movie
is a pretty faithful adaptation of the book, and I
mean both of them both. Obviously we're going to focus
on the movie here, but I love that it is
one of the few movies about young girls. We've talked

(01:11:30):
about this a lot on the podcast, where there's just
so few of them, at least as far as like
mainstream movies go. And it's a movie that just has
a lot of compelling themes and subplots between friendship among
girls and like figuring out who your friends are and
like the kind of person you want to be. Along

(01:11:52):
the way, there's you know, just the exploration of going
through puberty and trying to feel quote unquote and fit
in during like one of the most confusing times in
your life, and like being hyper aware of your body
and other people's bodies and how they're all developing, and

(01:12:13):
then like a byproduct of that being body shaming yourself.
So you have like kind of internalized like hatred of
your body because you feel like you're not normal or
you feel like what's happening to you is you know, freakish.
And then you're also fixating on other people's bodies and
noticing that, oh, they're different from yours, so they must

(01:12:34):
be quote unquote weirdo. And we see that with the
Laura Danker character. You've got the exploration of sexuality and
you know, the girls developing crushes and obviously everything we
see in this movie is like very hetero. Because this
is adapted from a book from the seventies, it would

(01:12:55):
be nice to see, you know, more inclusive coming of
age stories about queer kids exploring their sexuality and their gender.

Speaker 5 (01:13:03):
But I do love how it's portrayed as like most
of the feelings about the crushes are like about what
your friends will think of them, Like it's yeah, the
person you have a crush on is is sort of tangential,
like because it's really about the feelings you're having and
what that means with the relationships that are actually in
your life, like your relationships to your friends, and like

(01:13:25):
what will they think of you because of this feeling
you have? What will they like, is it acceptable?

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Is it?

Speaker 5 (01:13:31):
Will they think you're weird and laugh at you? Like yeah,
that's like where most of the anxiety is. It's not
actually from like having a crush. It's like all this
other stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
That's I feel like And because the I feel like
the two minutes in bathroom or whatever the fuck they
were calling it, because that was like portrayed a little
differently in the movie to the book, I feel like
it lost that a little bit. But it's like, yeah,
Margaret doesn't really have a crush on Philip. She just
knows that she's supposed to. Yeah, and like it's so

(01:14:01):
I mean, this is true across the gender spectrum, but
like this felt like closer to my own experience of
like so much of being these social groups, especially at
this age, is like you're performing for the others.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Yeah, yeah, and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
We don't even really we know that Margaret wants boobs
in her period, but it's mainly because she wants to,
you know, prove herself to her friend group. And like
she doesn't get a bra because she's like, it's time
for me to have a bra. She gets a broad
because it's one of the weird rules of the weird
group and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
The fight club or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
And she has she has a crush on Philip because
she's supposed to, but she doesn't actually, but she knows
that if she she says she has a crush on Moose,
well Nancy doesn't like Moose and so it's not allowed.
So it's like, you know, in a in the way
that like a lot of these i mean just friend
groups at all, but you know, especially the younger you are,
it's just a fundamentally dishonest endeavor, Like they're all like

(01:14:58):
lying out of their asses to each other. I wish,
I wish in the book and in the movie we
got a little more focus on, Like it seems like
Margaret and Janey sort of connects the closest, and I
wish we got a little bit more on that. I mean,
it's very much Margaret's story and that's fine, but I
felt like Janie's sort of who's also the only black
girl that we really get any insight into in the movie.

(01:15:21):
I just feel like we got less of her than
the other girls in the group, and that is a
shame because she's such a sweetie and it would be
nice to see Margaret actually sort of connect with her more.
There's a really sweet I forget if this happens in
the movie. In the book, there is a scene where
when Margaret is getting her bra, they run into Janie

(01:15:44):
and her mom on their way to do the same thing,
but they lie to each other about it, where Janie's like,
I'm getting new pajamas and Margaret's like I am too, goodbye,
but they're both clearly getting the growbra or whatever. I
was like, Oh, it would have been cool to have
more moments like that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
Yeah, that is not in the movie. The scene that
really stood out to me that is in the movie
is the one where Margaret and Jane go into the
drug store to buy pads and they're like so apprehensive
about it and then they like whip.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
The tick tags.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Yeah, they're like, this is not about us buying pads.
This is about us buying tic TACs, and the pads
just happened to be there. Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:16:24):
Really cute, And I love the giddiness that they get
after they like and it's just like the most normal
interaction of like, yeah, the checker is just like going
very you know, but it's just completely like they're having
an experience that is totally like, oh my god, it's
so crazy we're doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
Yeah, this is the most important thing they've ever done.
And then I like the scene where when Margaret does
go to like explore Christian church, she goes with Janey
and it's to this predominantly black congregation. They're singing like
lively gospel music. Then you also see that there's like

(01:17:02):
a montage where all the girls are getting ready for
the dinner party. Yeah, I appreciate that we do see
Jannie's home life. There's a moment where like her mom
is helping her get ready and like doing her hair.
But it does feel like because one thing I do
appreciate about the movie is that there's like there's a
variety of opinions or kind of feelings about what does

(01:17:25):
it mean to get your period or like how are
we feeling about the prospect of getting our periods? And
we have Like Gretchen, she gets hers first, she's pretty
nonchalant about it. She's like, yeah, just freaking kind of happens, dude. Meanwhile,
Nancy's lying about getting hers, and then when she actually
does get it, she's like so scared and upset.

Speaker 5 (01:17:46):
And her mom is so like that broke my heart
so much. That scene, yeah, where her mom is just like,
what's up? Oh okay, Like here's say too long. Yeah,
She's like, don't make us like take too long at
dinner because you've got your period or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Bite.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Yeah. I was also like, how does she not into it?
What's happened here? She's there? She asks what's up?

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
What's up?

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
So many times I'm like, look at your kid, think
of how old they are, What the fuck do you
think is up? Like take a guess?

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
Yeah, she does not handle that well. But yeah, that's
like the Nancy situation. Margaret is desperate to get her
period because again, she wants to be normal, and then
she's super excited when it does happen. We don't know
how Janie feels about the prospect of getting her period
at all, and it feels very pointed that the only

(01:18:41):
black girl gets overlooked in this matter. It's not as
though Janie is overlooked constantly about everything, but it does
feel weird because so much of this story is about like,
oh no, we're going through puberty and this is how
we feel about it. And then Jane feels we do
get that where she's like, ooh, sex is gross. I

(01:19:02):
never want to be naked in front of anyone, and
I don't want to see anyone naked, and like I
remember thinking that when I was eleven. I was like,
I'm never gonna have sex. Sex is for is gross.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
But that's all you really get, I mean, and especially because,
at least from what I can tell, like Jane's race
was changed for the movie, which is like, that's good,
but also it's like, but then also be aware of
how you have cast the movie and adjust the script
accordingly to make sure that characters are getting equal focused.
Otherwise it just seems like you cast the only black

(01:19:34):
girl we really get to focus on in this movie
in the quote unquote smallest part. So it's like flesh
the part out a little bit. It's not that hard,
but I mean this is also while there are a
lot of women involved, and also James L. Brooks because
his career is interesting, but there's a lot of women involved,
at the highest places in production, they are majority of
white women.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
And you can tell because the movie feels like it
just ignored race, and it ignores any racial tension in
nineteen seventies would have existed in this predominantly white suburb
in nineteen seventy.

Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
Yes, because it's you think, like I wrote this down
where I was like, yeah, they're moving out of New
York City in nineteen seventy, which is like the early
seventies were like pretty like New York City that was
white flight basically.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Like so they may in fact be white flighting.

Speaker 5 (01:20:26):
They might be white flighting because he gets I love
also that they're like, oh dad got a promotion. We
never know what his job is. We know it's like,
don't clime of it whatever. No, no, I don't care,
but I do love that that like his job doesn't matter,
but it is the reason we have to change all
our lives around and like that was interesting to me.
But yeah, they moved to the suburb, and like one

(01:20:47):
New Jersey suburb being this racially integrated doesn't feel that
realistic in the nineteen in nineteen seventy.

Speaker 4 (01:20:54):
And then two there is just no mention.

Speaker 5 (01:20:58):
And like, again, this is on a book, so like
we can't really be mad that they didn't like invent
things that weren't in the book. But like, but I
would have loved to see, yeah, like what you were
saying about Janie, I would love to see Margaret having
like a little bit of a realization that, like Jane's
experience is different than her experience, and that would have

(01:21:19):
been an interesting way for her to like wake up
to the world a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
You know, as well as mister Benedict too. The book
makes no mention to race whatsoever. So I'm not saying
that like in the book, everyone is what, it just
isn't brought up, Like race is just not a component
of the book, which is a level of privilege in
and of itself, but like, I don't even think it's
like an effective argument if someone were to be like, well,

(01:21:45):
it's the Bridgerton approach to casting, and we're just sort
of because other social issues are very present in here,
like the issue between inter Like this movie is a
lot about interfaith marriage and the prejudice that existed around
interfaith marriage at this time. So it's like they live
in a society, but.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
The one that doesn't acknowledge racism at all.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
In nineteen seventy, Like it's just weird. Yeah, I just
I don't know. Again, it's like I'm glad that the
cast is more diverse than ostensibly the book appeared to be.
But if you're going to do that, it's a period
piece and like you do have to make you know,
I think if you're making these adjustments, a completely straightforward

(01:22:29):
adaptation of the original book no longer makes total sense,
Like you can't just go and it's not like the
movie has to pivot and be entirely about race. But again,
it's like Janey, like you do get the feeling that
they sort of added in a majority of black congregation
and kind of called it a day, and that is.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Lazy, right, I mean, it's like I just kept thinking,
like you're telling me that this predominantly white, middle to
upper middle class suburb of again mostly white kids has
a black teacher and.

Speaker 3 (01:23:05):
No one said anything about it, and.

Speaker 4 (01:23:06):
The shitty little teenage kids are not are like racist
about it.

Speaker 5 (01:23:11):
Nancy's not being shitty and racist about it, Like yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
The tricky thing too, is like it's not like you
want to be like, Okay, the only black characters in
this movie, we're gonna we're gonna actually make a point
of how terribly they're treated by the other characters. But
it just it felt like it overcorrected that so far
that racism mysteriously didn't exist in this society where interfaith
marriage is still a big issue, and it's like that

(01:23:35):
just didn't it just didn't happen.

Speaker 4 (01:23:37):
Yeah, one bone I have to pick with this movie.

Speaker 5 (01:23:42):
But also, like pretty much all media like there is
no there's essentially no representation of period pain.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
True.

Speaker 5 (01:23:51):
So even we're we're just talking about how hard it
is to find a movie that portrays or discusses periods,
there is ten times less media out there that portrays
period pain. Yeah, where these it's all about like they're
getting their periods. She gets her period and it's just
like blood. Like it's just like, oh, periods are just blood.

(01:24:12):
You know, it's the end. You know you have your
period because you're bleeding. But it's like, at no point
it does she feel sick or uncomfortable, Like nobody is
talking about like cramps.

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
Nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:23):
She's one mention of cramping.

Speaker 5 (01:24:25):
Her mom asks her like, oh, do you have cramping?
And she's like, no, not at all.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
And it's like I just it's again, it's like you
have if you're having like four young girls who are
starting to menstrate, give them a variety of experience exactly,
because it's like, sure, that's not gonna happen to everyone,
but that does happen to a lot of kids, and
it is scary.

Speaker 5 (01:24:45):
How interesting would it be if like Gretchen got her
period first and was like everything's fine, but everything's different now.

Speaker 4 (01:24:51):
You wouldn't understand. And then Nancy got her period and
she was like, actually, I'm in so much pain and
like this like wait, why is this than my friend?
You know, like that would be so and it would be.

Speaker 5 (01:25:03):
I just like if I had seen any movies or
TV shows growing up where that had been portrayed at all.
I would not have felt like such a freak that
my period made me throw up, Like I would at
least know that somewhere else out there that was happening
to other people. Yeah, and other people would know that's
a possibility, right, because when I was when I was

(01:25:24):
fourteen and was throwing up on my period, people were like,
that doesn't happen like, and It's like, no, it does.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
It's same.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
I had to leave school one day because I I
got my period. I was feeling horrible. I like went
to the nurse's office to lie down. I was like, I,
this is horrible. I need to just go home. And
so I went to like collect my belongings while the
nurse called my mom. And as I was doing that,
I puked all over the floor of the school. And

(01:25:52):
then I heard someone come into the hallway and be like,
oh my god, and I just run away. Sorry I
never heard to this.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
It was really funny though, But I feel like the
only movie I've seen that acknowledges period cramps is that
Natalie Portman movie No Strings Attached, Yes, Yes, where they're
like kind of lying around and they're like, ah, we
all have cramps.

Speaker 5 (01:26:16):
But that's like that is basically just scene setting for
Ashton Kutcher to come in and be like I brought
cupcakes and I google periods and then they're like, great,
everything's fine now, heroic if we did it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
Yeah, there needs to be more just understanding and media
representation of side effects, symptoms totally of menstruation.

Speaker 4 (01:26:40):
Well and just the range like this is actually like
what I'm I'm obsessed.

Speaker 5 (01:26:45):
This is my white whale now, this is my Roman empire.
Is that we have one word for pain with periods, right,
we have cramps. But that experience can be like ooh ow,
like I'm a little uncomfortable, I'm going to take some
ypipro and and then I'll be fine all the way
to like I'm throwing up for seven hours, I'm passing

(01:27:05):
out from the pain. And we don't have a different
word for that.

Speaker 4 (01:27:09):
We don't have right, we just have cramps.

Speaker 5 (01:27:12):
So no wonder it's really hard for me to like
describe my pain to a doctor or to my boss
when I have to call out of work or like,
because if I just say cramps, nobody knows what the
fuck that means.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
There's no language for it.

Speaker 5 (01:27:26):
Yeah, yes, and so like it literally, unless you are
my parent or my like romantic partner and you have
seen with your own eyes what that pain does to me,
I basically can't tell you what this pain is or
like what's happening to me. And that's partly because we
don't talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
It in media.

Speaker 5 (01:27:45):
Like how many different words do we have for like
situationships and like all these different things so that we
can understand what we're talking about when we talk to
each other about romantic relationships, But we don't even stomach
aches we have like bloated, we have heartburn, you know,
we have all these different words that mean slightly different
versions of my stomach hurts right right, But like we

(01:28:08):
don't have that for cramps And if we talked about
it in the media more, we would have to have
better phrases and better more specific words, and we then
we could use those in other situations and people would
know what the fuck we were talking about and how
serious it was.

Speaker 4 (01:28:23):
It's why I started.

Speaker 5 (01:28:24):
Calling my really bad cramp like when I throw up
and pass out, those are death cramps. And I have
to differentiate it because sometimes I just have cramps and
it sucks like it always sucks, but like sometimes it's
a medical emergency, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
Right, God, And it's like, in terms of the movie,
it's like this is I just think it's like frustrating
what they chose to change versus what remained unaltered, because
it just feels like the easiest, you know, the easiest
cop out for that is like, well, we wanted to
be true to the book, and it's like, well, but
you actually kind of made the ending very neat and

(01:28:58):
clean in the way that is not true to the book.
So why wouldn't you update elements like acknowledging racism because
you have a more diverse cast, why would you not
update giving I mean, it wouldn't have changed anything about
the story, accept better representation of what experiencing a period
is like for different people if they had different like

(01:29:20):
the plot changes, not at all. It's just better representation.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
Right, So that said, I mean, I felt that it
is a really good movie, Like I enjoy it.

Speaker 4 (01:29:32):
I also like, we haven't even been able.

Speaker 5 (01:29:34):
One of the things I loved about it was like
Rachel mcadam's like her character where she's that she gets
a journey and Sylvia gets a journey of like, yeah,
my family left and I'm lonely, but like, then I'm
going to go to Florida and like make friends and
fuck buddies and like, and they all kind of end
up in different places, you know, they all have journeys, Yeah,

(01:29:56):
that you follow throughout the movie, and it's like, oh,
I that I love that, Like we're following these three
generations dealing with very different things.

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
But they actually all get like a journey totally.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:08):
I wrote down for Grandma Kathy Bates that she says
that one line of like after they have moved to Jersey,
she says, like I read that if you don't have
any loved ones around your life, expectancy drops drastically, And
I was like, parentheses, this is why people need to
make and maintain friendships outside of their nuclear family. But
then she does that and exactly she does it.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
I also got the feeling that she was being over
dramatic in that I'm like, there's no way this lady
doesn't have a shitload of friends.

Speaker 2 (01:30:36):
Like, she goes to Temple, She's got friends at Temple.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
Surely she's talking to Like I think she was just
saying that to make her son feel guilty. Yeah, but yeah,
I love that there's like these and that, as with
most Judy bloom books like that, the women get the focus.
But that doesn't mean that the you know, I think
with like with Herb, I kept calling him Benny Safti,
but it is in fact Herb. But that Herb does

(01:31:03):
have a few you know, solid moments, especially in that
sort of climactic scene with all the grandparents. Oh, that's
also a little bit different in the book, but I
think the movie did do it better. Where in the
book the Christian grandparents have already left by the time
Kathy Bates gets there. I think it was better that
they were all there at once. Yeah, but in any
case that like that scene, it's very short, but I

(01:31:26):
thought they did really well with it. With Herb and
Rachel mcadam's on Barbara Barbara, remember brab Bra have this
really painful conversation where you know, you can tell that
like Herb is like, well, what the fuck your parents
are bigots? Why are you inviting them over? And not
only are they bigots, they treated you like garbage and

(01:31:49):
so like he hates them on so many levels, all
of which are completely valid and and just like I
mean again, it makes it stick out even more that
the racism of this time isn't but just how prevalent
anti Semitism still was in the seventies, and how discouraged
interfaith marriages were. And also I'm not I mean, I'm

(01:32:11):
not Jewish. I can't speak to this. I did want
to just mention because I know that there is a
lot of like there's been a lot of discussion in
the past, however many years about Jewish characters being played
by non Jewish actors. I think it most most often
comes up in like marvelous Missus Masel conversations. But the
Kathy Bates is Christian, and I you know, I can't

(01:32:34):
speak to whether that was a sticking point for anybody,
but I did just want to acknowledge it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
Sure, But something that.

Speaker 3 (01:32:41):
Was very sweet. There's a little bts is that the
actor who plays Margaret, who is just the cutest kid
and does such a great job, Kelly Freeman Craig.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
Wait, no, that's the that's the director, writer, director.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Okay, take it again,
Abby writer forced in. Sorry, three names trippy up, like
three names are in entertainment or serial killers? Like that's it.
But you know, in spite of being a three names,
she's great. Abby writer Fortson wanted this part so badly

(01:33:17):
that she wrote this really sweet letter that kind of
feels like a letter a kid would write to Judy
Bloom about how she felt so connected. She like wrote
this long letter to the producers of the movie, including
James Brooks, which was wild, but I just wanted to
and they published it in Variety as well. As she
and Kathy Bates, I guess had like a really great

(01:33:39):
working relationship and that two. I was like, oh, kids
are so cool. That Abby, in order to get into
her part. I don't know if she was told to
do this or if she just took it upon herself,
wrote letters in character as Margaret to Kathy Bates as
if she were at camp and was like, hi, Grandma,
and Kathy Bates wrote back, and they like shared some

(01:34:00):
of those two, and I was like, that's so sweet,
but I did want to share just like a little
bit of her letter about why she connected with Margaret.
So this is from Abby, Dear Kelly, Julia, and mister Brooks.
It was really nice to meet you all. I really
like Margaret a lot and feel really connected to her
as we are both really insecure about growing up but
still try to hide it. We are both not the

(01:34:21):
popular kids at school and both just want to have friends.
I very much enjoyed both the book and the script
of Margaret, and feel like this would be an inspiring
story for young girls to know that they are enough
in their own bodies. Everybody is changing, some faster than others,
but eventually it doesn't matter. What matters is what's inside,
not how big your boobs are. Margaret has her body
changing and it is having her quest for religion. I

(01:34:44):
feel like she has a lot to be uncomfortable about,
and she is also just starting at a new school
and doesn't have any friends. I have always wanted to
play a character like Margaret, a part that will help
other people be confident in their own skins. When I
read the script, I said to my mom, this is
my life. I am Margaret. I get made fun of.
I don't have a ton of good friends, I don't

(01:35:04):
really have her religion, and I feel out of place
most of the time because none of my friends are
in any of my classes. Even though I'm a good
kid in class. I feel the school is like, Okay,
let's take all of Abby's friends away and see how
well she does in school sitting next to a bunch
of jerks. It goes on from there, but I just like,
I thought it was so sweet and you can feel

(01:35:27):
that in her performance too, that it's like even though
she's playing a kid fifty years earlier that you know.

Speaker 5 (01:35:33):
I also love this that it starts with Hi, Julie,
Kelly and miss like.

Speaker 2 (01:35:41):
You she should have just wrote a letter to God.
Are you there? God? Yeah, it's me Abby.

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
James Brook is like so fascinating anyways, And also just
to shout out, this was written and directed by Kelly
Freeman Craig, who had previously written and directed The Edge
of seventeen, which I haven't seen, but there you go.
It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
It's true. We shall cover that on the show at
some point. Yeah, the movie does pass the Bechdel test
obviously so many times. But our nipple scale, the scale
where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based
on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, I think
I'd give this like I think of four. You know,

(01:36:29):
there's areas for improvement as far as like, obviously they
wanted to be more inclusive in their casting, but at
the expense of like pretending like racism isn't a thing,
which felt quite glaring. And again, it's all very cis
had characters. It is adapted from source material from the seventies,

(01:36:50):
so it's not necessarily surprising, but it just means that
we need more stories, similar stories, but that are more
stories inclusive and more representative of yeah, everyone that we
have living in society today.

Speaker 5 (01:37:03):
And ultimately, if they if they had to make a
choice between like doing an all white cast and sticking
completely like to the source material and for sure imperfectly
having a more diverse cast, but like not telling what
that story, how the story changes, I'm I'm glad that
they did. I'm glad they did what they did. I
wish they could they could have gone further, but like

(01:37:26):
they were still in the right direction for me anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Right right direction for improvement. But yeah, I think I'll
have it four nipples.

Speaker 4 (01:37:34):
Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 5 (01:37:34):
I think four nipples is perfect, like in terms of
content and storytelling, Like I just loved the focus on
the three women and their journeys and Margaret's like genuine struggle.
I would maybe go three and a half just because
of my personal frustration with like no representation of period pain,
but they're certainly not alone in that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:57):
True, I'm gonna go and be a coward and go
three point seventy five and say, hey, I'm right between
the two of you. Yeah, I agree, I have I
have like my gripes with this movie. But again, it's
definitely and almost unfortunately a huge step forward for portraying

(01:38:17):
a version of puberty in a way that like most
movies just like don't have the stones to make I
have issues with and I'm with Kate on you know,
I would rather imperfect and have a more diverse cast.
And it's I mean, I know it's messy, but also
maybe having more black producers and creatives on your project

(01:38:38):
could help that. But all said and done, I think,
like I'm just really glad that this movie exists. I
would recommend you know, if you have, you know, a
kid in your life that is coming of age and
is going to men straight, this is a cool movie
to show to them. I agree with Kate that you
know that the spectrum of experience isn't shown, but this

(01:38:59):
is a I think it's also like it speaks to
the culture. Dare I say that it took fifty years
to get this far, like it should not be taking
place so far in the past. This movie should have
come out in nineteen seventy four, but because it didn't,
I think that, you know, this is certainly a step

(01:39:21):
in the right direction, and I feel like it was
kind of overlooked in this Oscar season. I know most
people bring up Rachel mcadam's performance as the standout, but
I just think that in general, movies that are about,
you know, young women coming of age are generally over overlooked,
overlooked and viewed as you know, kind of frivolous in

(01:39:44):
a way that isn't fair. This is a great movie.
I really enjoyed it. Three point seven five nipples, and
I'm not giving any away to anyone because this is
a movie for children.

Speaker 2 (01:39:54):
Yes fair ninety nine percent fresh on Rotten Tomatoes critics score.
By the way, this was this is a beloved movie.
It's beloved, but also thirty million dollar budget and only
twenty one point five million dollar box office.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
So I think that that has to do with promotion too.
I did not see this movie promoted really at all.
Same and to be fair, part of the reason this
movie didn't exist earlier is because Judy Bloom turned down.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
Yeah, a lot of opportunities to have it adapted, but
her reasoning was that she didn't think it would be
adapted responsibly. So it's just it's complicated. It's complicated. Also,
Hans Zimmer composed the score, which I did not resonate
for me at all, but noted. There you go. No,
it just sounded sort of generic.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Anyways, Yeah, for sure, Thank you so much for coming
on the show. Kate, come back anytime.

Speaker 4 (01:40:48):
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:40:49):
Tell us where we can find you online plug away.

Speaker 5 (01:40:52):
Oh my gosh, okay, well, Cramped is a ten episode
limited series that's cr amped the last episode. It will
be out by the time this episode comes out, so
go listen, go binge all ten episodes anywhere you get
your podcasts. You can find me on Instagram at Kate
Helen Downey full government name, three names.

Speaker 3 (01:41:10):
Oh yeah, you're a three name on a three name?
Are you a serial killer? Or are you a name name?

Speaker 5 (01:41:17):
So far just entertainment, but who knows. I could be
a double threat someday.

Speaker 3 (01:41:20):
Life is long.

Speaker 4 (01:41:22):
And then on.

Speaker 5 (01:41:22):
TikTok you can find me at Kate is cramped, and
I do a lot more like educational period pain content
on there.

Speaker 2 (01:41:28):
Nice. You can follow us in all the normal places,
on the normal places, especially the best place, I would
say is our Matreon mm hmmm, okay, Patreon dot com,
slash spectal cast and well, what do we have there,
Jamie is it two bonus episodes every month.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
For the low price of five dollars, as well as
access to our back catalog of nearly two hundred episodes
at this point, as well as you're joining a community
where you get to vote on the movies we cover,
and usually we listen, but sometimes we don't.

Speaker 2 (01:42:00):
We don't.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
It's the best way to directly support the show if
you're a fan. And if you're out of main feet episodes,
it's a little lucy goosey over on the Matreon.

Speaker 2 (01:42:08):
It's a fun little lucy moosy.

Speaker 3 (01:42:12):
It's yung. Yeah, So you could go and find us there,
and that's where we cover a lot of your popular requests.
And yeah, the other place to really follow us right
now is on Instagram. And with that, shall we we must,
we must, we must increase.

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
We must increase our listenership. So tell your friends about us.

Speaker 3 (01:42:39):
Perfect ending Bye Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voss Krassensky. Our logo and
merch is just designed by Jamie Loftus and a special
thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast,

(01:43:06):
please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast