Beauty and the Beast (1991)

Jamie and Caitlin are doing their first re-do of the entire 'cast -- we're talking Beauty and the Beast (1991) with the wisdom of 2021 on our side!

This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest
start changing it with the bec Del cast. Dude, dude,
du dude, dude Due. Once upon a time there was

(00:23):
a podcast I'm bailing. I'm bailing on the bed. I'll
keep going in this podcast, dude, dude Due. This podcast
was really was really mean to a lot of movies.
And one day a poor little movie walked into the

(00:44):
podcasts Castle and the and the poor little person said,
please don't hate my movie. I tried my best, do
do do? Okay, okay, like this amazing when ball and

(01:13):
orchestra can be anything? Where is this going? Okay? Sorry,
so twenty one I'm crying. The podcast was like, get

(01:33):
away from here, go away. Your movie sucks and we're
not going to give it a chance. And can you, um,
what's something about my beautiful music? No, that's amazing. Um

(01:55):
So anyway, this movie, this little movie was like, please
don't turn me away, Please give me a chance. In
the podcast is like, no, I cary to make it quieter.
Oh my god, I don't know what's happening anyway. So

(02:18):
the moral of the story is that the podcast was
really mean and it had to learn well, I don't know,
didn't have to learn anything. What am you saying? Do
do do do? Do? Do do? Get ready the next
song starting do do Do Do Do? Do Do Do?

(02:44):
Do We do? Little Podcast isn't quiet podcast? Every episode
like the one people Good Self on the podcast Little
Hosts waking up to bachtel cast backtel Castel movies. There

(03:15):
goes the whole movies. I know every line of dialogue
in this movie, Like it's so there's movies I could
in a in a pinch, I could close my eyes
and basically watch, you know, because you've just seen them
so many times. I could probably do this with like
movies like Beauty and the Beast and like obviously some

(03:40):
d coms, just like movies that are just like whoop
just there forever Yes same. This and a few other
Disney Renaissance movies are that for me as well. This
was one of the four main ones I watched on
repeat as a kid. Bell was my favorite because she
had brown hair and she could read, and I could

(04:04):
relate with those things which I think we said Okay,
So first of all, Hi, this is the Bechtel Cast.
We'll be our podcast, be our podcast that doesn't make
make sense. This is the Bechtel Cast. My name is
Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is
our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,

(04:28):
using the Bechtel test merely as a jumping off point
to initiate a larger conversation about representation in cinema. This
is kind of a special episode for for us because
we are redoing, revisiting, returning to four episodes throughout this year.

(04:49):
We haven't really decided when, but we thought this would
be a fun place to start. Yes, of episodes we
did early in this series that we're like, we can do,
we can do better. We just it's been and it's
because it has nothing to do with anything other than
that they are four year old episodes and there's just
kind of more to say now. Yeah, they were all

(05:10):
episodes that like among the first like ten episodes we
ever recorded and released and believed or not. It was
before we really knew what we were doing. So our
guests are and were amazing, and then we were just
like we we missed with the four movies, especially, we
just missed things that seem very obvious to us now

(05:32):
that we just van did not mention at the time.
So we're redoing them. And Beauty and the Beast is
our first episode that we are redoing throughout the year.
Later in the year, it's gonna be What's Matt Max
Fury Road The Matrix, which I will watch and people
will leave me alone about people. Ever, well, people will
also riot that you people. I mean, I will be

(05:56):
a different person once I've actually seen The Matrix. Um,
I will be red pilled. Uh and then uh, and
then it's killed Bill. We're gonna redo our first episode
ever So, but this is we're doing Beauty and the
Beast to kick off the year. It's uh, it's a
if not a fan favorite, a movie that everyone on

(06:16):
the face of the planet has basically seen, I think so.
And since we last covered it, there's been a really
bad version of it. They came out almost four years
ago at this point and made it was like that
whole Okay, we're gonna be talking about kind of a
Smartgese board of Beauty and the Beast adaptations. We're grounding
it in the classic But um, I watched the two

(06:40):
thousand seventeen one for the first time today and was
just like, holy shit, a billion dollars can look like anything,
you know, like how that movie made over a billion dollars? Wait?
Did it? Yes? It made one point to Billiawn Dollard
made so much money, and and then you're Emma Watson

(07:05):
goes like she sounds like tea pain, like she's so
auto tuned. You're like, what is going on? A billion dollars?
And that's why I feel pretty firmly convinced. Once Disney
did that, once bob Iger Boby Gare was like, oh,
we can make a billion dollars off of that. I

(07:26):
guess quality is not a problem. And and that's why
all the reboots are just like bad because they don't
have to be good because they made a billion dollars
with with the worst one that I've seen. I haven't
seen them all, but I've seen a couple of them
and impauty of the pieces. So yeah, it's yeah in theaters.

(07:47):
I saw it bravely. I saw in theaters I was
contributing to the billion other people. I'm kidding. It doesn't
caused a dollar to see a like a billion dollars.
That's so many dollars, so many dollars um the Disney reap.
I haven't seen the Dumbo one, nor the Cinderella one
from I think or I haven't seen Maleficent either, but

(08:08):
I've seen like a Laddin. Lion King is low key.
I kind of liked. I have only seen the first Moleficent,
but I was like, the first Moleficent was kind of fun.
It was like diet wicked kind of. I have not
seen the Cinderella one and won't. And I did see Tumbo. Wow,

(08:28):
thank you. It was a mess. It was a disaster.
It was so bad. I haven't seen most of them.
I've seen. I have seen the Lion King. I've watched
the new Mulan once the paywall was brought down. Oh right,
I haven't seen that one either. It's fun, it's fine,
it's but there's a lot of controversy around. I mean,
that's a whole other we'll get to that one eventually.

(08:51):
There's you know, there's it's okay. They're all essentially none
of them are as good as the original, and they're
all like generally like not very but the Beauty, but
Beauty and the Beast was like about, like, holy sh it,
what was what happened? Everything went wrong everything, and then
they've made a billion dollar Like I just no one

(09:13):
learned a damn thing. Well, you know what a damn thing.
Something I need to be reminded of often is that
nostalgia is a powerful emotion and people will make decisions
strong enough. But I mean that explains I think that
explains why a billion dollars was made. Yes, that's why

(09:35):
a billion dollars worth of chances being taken. But like
I can't imagine. I mean, I'm curious in the future
when children who saw the reboot then process it later
they're like that, what was that? What was that all about?
It was so it was wow, Wow, I love Luke Evans.

(09:57):
And then at the end, you know how like a
we're gonna get to one, the good one. But the
there there was that huge show made of like Lafo
Josh Gad's character is going to be the first out
gay character in all of Disney history, and then you're like,
when is that going to become clear? And then it

(10:18):
never does. But there's this shot at the end where
like La food dances with a man we don't know
for a second, and they're like, yeah, it had happened.
It was it. Wow. I mean so many parts of
the movie were a slap in the face, but that
was that was a special one. That was a special

(10:40):
slab one of many issues I can't And then I
also like, when The Beast came to life, I don't
know who I thought that actor was going to be.
But I had this flash of rage where I was like,
who the fuck is that there was at the end
where the whole cast is supposed to all of a

(11:01):
sudden be a very famous person at the end, Right,
you've got Emma Thompson, You've got Audre McDonald, You've got
you Greg, You've got McKellen mckellin, Stanley Stanley, oh my gosh,
Stanley tu cheese and and then there and then like
and here's the Beast, and you're like, who that? Who

(11:24):
the funk is that? I don't know who even was
that man. I couldn't tell you. A bunch of people
are about to like swan dive into my mentions and
be like, hey was in I didn't know who that
man was. He wasn't famous enough to be in the movie.
He wasn't famous enough. I can't. I don't know why
I can't say famous today. He was not famous enough

(11:45):
to be in the movie. And that interpretation of the Beast,
it was horrible. He was so mean, he was so
and he looked like shit. C in that movie was
a zaster And oh my god, Bell's dress. I okay, wait,

(12:07):
I have to pull up a tap because I looked
up the costume designer for the movie, very like well
regarded costume designer. Um, I will find what her name was.
But it was the I think maybe the most I
parti ist dress for Bell. Like her dress, I was like,

(12:27):
I'm pretty sure I wore that in the like that
exact dress in like the second grade, Like what is
going on here? It was nominated for Best Costume Design
and seeing at the Academy Awards a billion dollars, I
don't even know what's going on. Absolutely Cosaster. Jacqueline Durant,

(12:50):
very well regarded costume designer, has done some of the
most iconic Like she did she did a tone that
she said, some of the best costume designs of our lifetime,
I'm sure, and then she went to I party. I
just couldn't tell. You don't know. We don't m hmmm,

(13:10):
did we? I don't think we've said what the Bechdel
test was yet the Bedel test, I guess the beck
Doel test. Do you want to say it or should?
I don't know why I'm so mad about it. I'm fine.
I'm happy to say it is. It's a mediametric created

(13:31):
by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires that two people
of any marginalized gender have to have names, have to
speak to each other, and they have to talk about
something other than a man. Our standard is a two
line exchange or more of dialogue. So that's a Becktel test,

(13:52):
and then will determine if Beauting the Beast or other
adaptations passes later on. The one definitely passes the Backdel test.
But it's just a perfect example of what a flawed
metric it is, because you can just be talking in
the worst movie you've ever heard and it can pass
the Backtel So, okay, we are talking about Caitlin, what

(14:16):
is your history with Beauty and the Beast feature film?
Like I said, I just want I watched this movie
on repeat as a kid. It came out and when
I was. I was like five when it came out
and perfect. So I've basically was watching it since we
got it on like VHS that year or in ninety

(14:39):
two or whenever, um, and have been watching it ever since. UM.
So yeah, So this is one of my favorite animated
Disney movies, or at least it was at you know,
the time. I have mixed feelings about it now, but
I deal. There's still a lot that I that I
appreciate about it, and I love, especially the score, which

(15:01):
you so beautifully we're singing earlier. I mean it's like
common Yes, Um, what's your history with it? I mean
about the same. It came out before I was born,
but I literally don't remember a life before this movie.
I just it's It's always been the one. It was.

(15:23):
Belle was my favor because she was not like the
other girls because she could read a book. So yeah,
I absolutely loved it. Watched it five trillion times, and
as I get older and then I started bringing in animation.
It's like some of the most beautiful animation ever. It's
so like when I was in college, I think they released, um,

(15:48):
like a remaster of it in theaters. Um, and I
went to see it in theaters like in imax, and
it's so beautiful and yeah, I just I I really,
I really uh love this movie and a lot of levels.
It's not I mean, it's so it's so mired in
a lot of shit, but I think of the Disney

(16:11):
um renaissance, it's not even close to like the worst
disservice of a female character, which is not you know,
speaking super complimentary. The bar is on the floor. But yeah,
rewatching it for for this and then also kind of
watching the various attempts to update it. Um, I think

(16:35):
it holds up, you know, relatively wealth obviously. I mean
it's there's been so much discourse about this movie that
I don't even think I have any like new points
to bring to the table. The problems with the story
have been pretty well trodden, and we will trod it again.

(16:55):
But I still love the movie. I so to prepare
for this, I watched the two Disney versions. I love
the original, hated the reboot, and then I also used
to watch with my mom for some I don't know why.
This was a Fourth of July tradition. Um On the
fourth of July, my mom and I used to watch.

(17:17):
There was a TV series on CBS that was called
Beauty and the Beast and it starred Linda Hamilton's as
the Bell character, but she's called Catherine and the show
and she's a high powered assistant d a problematic and
then the Beast is played by Ron Perlman in the

(17:39):
most makeup You've ever seen in your entire life. But
even Ron Pearlman on like VHS quality CBS TV show
in looks better than the c G I Beast with
like whatever ten is balls all over his head. But yeah,
so I watched a few episodes of that to prepare
as well, because I was like, well, let's find a

(18:00):
midpoint and um, you know, the DC has a disaster.
George R. R. Martin wrote on that show of his
early credits, that's one of those things that I learned
about and then immediately forget and then relearn like six
months later, and then immediately forget and then relearn, And
just like just because the second had appeared on screen,

(18:21):
I was like, I've read that somewhere, even though I
don't even care, But yeah, this show was was fun.
The Beast lives in we know how It's like it's
almost like us, like empty tunnels. The Beast lives in
one of those tunnels. He lives in one of the
US tunnels, and Linda Hamilton's goes down to one of
the US tunnels and then they I don't know, I

(18:43):
only watched the first three episodes, but it's like they
agree in the pilot there like this can never be
because you're a d A and I'm the Beast. Like
it's so weird because she's like very eighties and he's
still like the Beast and he lives in a subway tube.
That's I mean, that sounds a bit like Phantom of
the Opera. It's extremely Phantom of the Opera to the

(19:06):
point where I'm like, why didn't they just do that?
My my guess is Phantom of the Opera would have
been a really popular Broadway show at this time, and
they were like, how can we have Phantom of the
Opera without paying for the rights to it? I see,
that's my guests because this was like seven so pre
Disney making a good version of this, so we're like,
let's make a really bad version of it, and they did, Um,

(19:29):
but I recommend it. I got CBS All Access for it,
and I'm not to unsign up. Now I just have it,
so now you haven't congratulations. Yeah, let me know if
you want my password, if you want to want the
Good Fight? Is that the one with Christine Baranski, because
if I'll watch it? Hell yeah? Okay, well yeah, I

(19:50):
mean my notes mostly focused on I have a little
bit of like what the live action remake attempts to
do to like update stuff, but most of my notes
are on the animated version. Yeah. Yeah, no, let's let's
talk about the version. Um that is fun to talk about. Yes, okay,

(20:13):
let's take a quick break and then we will come
back and get into the recap. And we're back. So
we get some backstory about the beast. Oh my god,
I'm gonna pass my pants off again, but just imagine

(20:35):
right right, So we get some backstory about the beast. Um.
He was horrible to this old beggar woman who shows
up at his castle. She turns out to be a
beautiful enchantress, so as punishment for him mistreating her, she
turns him into a beast and places a spell on

(20:55):
the entire castle, um which we will eventually learn that
all of the occupants of the castle are turned into
like enchanted objects. Household objects. Yeah, so she says, this enchantress,
if you can get someone to fall in love with you,
if you fall in love with someone and get someone
to fall in love with you back by the time

(21:18):
the last pedal fells on this enchanted rose, this spell
will be broken and your beast curse will be lifted. Right.
So that's the backstory, very specific curse she's casting. But
I remember when I was very tiny. How in the
Stained Glass introduction, the I guess which or recalling her

(21:40):
which she's an a sorceress, an enchantress? Is what an enchantress?
She's wearing this beautiful green dress that I was. I
was like, Oh, I wish that you actually saw her. Um,
like that. I just liked that dress to say, dude,
that was not dude, it's a beautiful dress. Okay. Then

(22:05):
we cut to Bell. She lives in a small French
town with her father, Maurice, who is an inventor. She
loves to read. She is very beautiful, and those are
the two most important things about her. Really. Um, she
is so hot that the guy who owns and operates

(22:28):
a bookstore doesn't say anything when she treats the bookstore
like it's a library. He never corrects her. He's never
like you you have to pay for the books. So
hot people can be very intimidating like that. That's why
hot people are generally really rude and have no idea.
They're just like walking around because everyone's like h then

(22:49):
no one, no one ever tells them that, yeah she did,
that is true. She treats the whole damn plays like
a library. And then he's like, actually, you can keep
the book for free, and like you're doubling down on
not teaching this woman what a store is. Not only
are you letting her borrow books that you are trying
to sell for human money, you are giving them away

(23:13):
now to this hot woman for free. So yeah, that's
how hot she is, and that's how much she loves
to read. I love. This is kind of like probably
the as a as a child of our generation. Um,
this is probably the first like not like the other
Girl's song that really gets like nailed, you know, into

(23:35):
your head over and over. Like if you're hot and
you can read a book, guess what you're gonna be
both very desired and you're gonna be very reviled, which
is like, I don't know what message. What the message
is the message? We don't know. But if you're hot
and you can read, look out, people are gonna have
strong takes one way or another. So that's Bells whole

(24:00):
thing is she also um, she wants more than this
provincial life in this small French town. She sings about that.
And then there's also the French Chad Gaston. Yes, he
wants to marry Bell because she is hot, but she
has no interest in him because he's dripping with toxic masculinity.

(24:21):
Gaston also has a little sidekick, Lafu. So um, Bell's
father Maurice is working on this wood chopping invention to
take to this fair uh and he sets off but
gets lost along the way and happens upon this dark
and scary castle, which is like, I think we talked

(24:42):
about this the first time, but like didn't Does no
one know about the castle? How long has the castle
been there? Is the provincial town not aware that there's
a gigantic castle? How long has the curse been going on?
Because it seems like he's pretty young when the curses
put on him and they're like you haven till your
twenty one bird days, You're like, okay, Max a couple

(25:02):
of years so did the monarchy fall a couple of
years ago, but then everyone got like men in Black
like forget Ray and they forget that there was We've
talked about this before. Yeah, and this is one of
the things that UM the live action remake attempts to
address UM and I would recommend checking out. Lindsay Ellis

(25:24):
does a really great video essay on this live action
remake and a friend of the cast, Friend of the cast,
and how a lot of the problems with it are
the movie trying to like address fan criticism over the years.
It's like, my thing is, like I don't even super
object to like a remake trying to address fan criticism,

(25:47):
but like almost every every way that this reboot chooses
to address it is basically incoherent, Like right, there's a
there's a one cent Tin's way to address that criticism
that doesn't whatever. It's like a nod to the fact that, yes,
the plot point doesn't super make sense, but it isn't

(26:11):
like this whole like convoluted, Like every attempt to explain
anything in their reboot, You're like, what are you talking about?
It weakens the story for sure. On every occasion yeah,
I feel like you can. You can nod to it
without being like, oh, there's a whole like Pixar theory

(26:32):
on your Like, it doesn't really matter. It's not that
big a deal anyway. So Maurice shows up at this
castle and this is where the Beast lives, and the
Beast takes Maurice as his prisoner. And then also, as
we mentioned earlier, the prince who is now the Beast,
his servants have been turned into these enchanted objects. So

(26:56):
we've got like, Lumier is a candlestick, cogs Were is
a clock, Mrs Potts is a tea pot, her son
Chip is a little teacup. And these are all characters
that Maurice meets early on. They're all cute. They're cute.
So back in town, guest On is trying to force

(27:16):
Bell into a marriage. She's not having it. And then
her horse shows back up without her dad, so she
goes looking for Maurice and also ends up at the
castle where she comes upon her father, comes upon the
beast and offers to take her father's place as the
Beast's prisoner, and the Beast is like, sounds good to me,

(27:39):
here's yourself, And so like it would be so easy
to just be like, do I need a prisoner? You know?
But whatever I mean, we'll talk about. This is how
the story goes. So Lumier, Cogsworth, et cetera see Bell
being there as an opportunity for this spell to be lifted,

(28:01):
and they basically try to orchestrate a romance between Bell
and the beast basically right away. But the beast has
an awful temper and he's yelling. He's like, never fucking
go to the west wing of the castle. Here's a bedroom,
but don't go to the west wing. Meanwhile, back in town,

(28:22):
Guston is singing about how awesome he is, and then
Maurice comes into the tavern. He's like, hey, there's this
beast and he has taken Bell as prisoner, and everyone
thinks that Maurice is delusional, and then Guston sees this
as an opportunity to kind of use the possibility that
Maurice could get locked up as leverage to try to

(28:45):
get closer to marrying Bell, which is truly one of
the most evil ideas in all of Disney Cannon. Yes,
I feel like it's uh not discussed enough. What a
truly base and evil idea it is. Yeah, He's like,
I'm going to lock your father up, Bell unless you
marry me. Sound good? That was his plan? Okay? And yeah,

(29:11):
So back at the castle, Beast has demanded that Bell
have dinner with him. She doesn't want to, and he
screams at her and tells her to go ahead and starve.
And then later that night, because this a lot of
the recap so far has only taken has taken place
over the course of a single day, which I always forget.

(29:31):
It is a lot of things to happen in a day,
and you have to keep in mind that when you
take a step into the woods, it's immediately night, which
people don't remember, but the second you're in the shade,
it's actually night. And that's just kind of how the
visual works. Yeah, it's very jarring, and I feel like,
again just like one of the things that translates to

(29:53):
live action a little weirder right in the animated In
the animated version, I never I truly never noticed, but
when you see it in live action, you're like, huh,
it truly is just a Tuesday for for this town.
So Beasts tells her to starve, but later that night
she does come out of her room for some food,

(30:14):
and this is when we get the br guest song. Beautiful,
some of the most beautiful animation ever. So good, so pretty,
Jerry Orbach, I'm iconic performance. It's just so good. What
I should have said earlier was back dull cast, back

(30:36):
to cast. That's way better than this. The seven minute
tangent we went on at the beginning, I guess we
have to let's start over. Welcome to the back Doel cast.
My name is your guest is so beautiful. I've also
remember now, I've also seen this the animated movie in

(30:56):
l a before, because you know, in the before times
where they used to show old Disney movies at El
Capitan Theater. Oh yeah, I went to see Beauty and
the Beast when I was um by myself. Wait, I
think I remember this, Yeah, I think when you did
after a battal cast recording ones because it's close to

(31:16):
the studio. It was so nice. It's like when you
get there, you're like, wow, this is a lot of
families and I am a single adult. But it was
really beautiful. And they bring Bell out at the beginning,
and she throws from fetty at the audience. Wow, classic
Bell and the kids love it. Um okay. So later

(31:38):
that night, because it's still the same day, just Tuesday,
it's just Tuesday, she sneaks into the West Wing where
the Beast had told her not to go, and she
comes upon the Rose and she almost touches it, but
the Beast stops her and he flips out. This is
another point in the in the U in the reboot,

(31:58):
where there's way too much backstory that no one wanted.
Where she goes to the West Wing and there she's like, oh,
it's the story of the royal family and all the
and there's like a whole family tree thing, and then
you're like huh. And then the Beast is like, no,
both of our moms are dead and that's why we're
and it's like, it turns out I didn't want it.
Turns out I didn't want it. I didn't care. I

(32:19):
didn't care, And it's way easier. There's just an oil
painting of a hot guy that she doesn't know as
the Beast, an allegedly hot guy. I contend, I too contend.
I also think that the Beast as a man looks
exactly like Patrick Wilson does in phantom like dead Ringer.

(32:44):
I think that was part of why I was so
outraged at the end of the one. I'm like, they
should have just I mean, he the age gap between
Emma Watson and him would have been pretty large, but
I was like, it should have just been they photo.
What what can you do? I mean? Anyways, So, yes,

(33:06):
she comes across the rose and the beast is. She
freaks out. He's throwing furniture around, he being a very
scary guy. Yes he is, and she is very frightened, understandably,
and she runs out of the castle. She's like, I
don't care what I said about agreeing to stay here.

(33:27):
I'm leaving. And it's easy for her to do, which
is it? And she does remember this because she does
it again later. Yeah, the doors aren't even locked. Um.
One of my things is why does she accept her
fate so quickly? Why doesn't she try to escape sooner?

(33:48):
You know, we can talk about that. I mean, it's like,
I guess she is kind of like I guess I
can just kind of go whenever because anytime she wants
to leave, which is a few different times. Um, it's
not a problem. Yes, the staff that not only is
the beasts quote unquote staff very much on her side.

(34:08):
There's not enough of them to stop and their their candles.
What are they gonna do? What are they gonna do? Nothing? Nothing.
If I was Bell, I would just be like, what
are you gonna do? Truly? What if you fall asleep?
I could just at any moment not be here anymore.
But you know, what can you do? There's that big
wardrobe maybe that would like fall over, try to fall

(34:29):
over on her or something's like Bell's best friend. She's like,
you're so beautiful and great and I love you, and
she would never collapse on them. True, it would be
funny if she tried. Um. So Bell leaves, but in
the woods she gets attacked by wolves who we've already

(34:51):
seen attack more use because apparently all the wolves in
this you know land are somebody got to feed these wolves.
They seem like they might have rabies. I don't know,
but this is this is like super nitpicky, But it doesn't.
It does make me a lot. It's winter in the woods.
It's winter at night in the woods at all times,

(35:13):
and but it's it's like fall. It's a different season nearby.
It's not snowing. Another thing they like try to pass
off as a joke and try to explain in the remake,
which again, and it looks doesn't It looks so bad.
It's also just like trust that your audience can suspend
their disbelief for some stuff fun to notice. It's fun

(35:36):
to notice, and I didn't need Emma Watson to do
a Shakespearean monologue about it. But whatever. But I like
winter in the woods and the coyotes are starving. They're
so wolves and they try to kill Bell, but the
Beast swoops in and saves the day. He gets ittten

(36:00):
up by some of the wolves, and she has a
moment where she's like, am I going to leave and
escape for good or not? And she decides not. She
decides to take the beast back to the castle, return
with him as his prisoner, and kind of nurse him
back to health. And this is when things start to change. Basically,

(36:22):
he starts to become more caring and gentle than he
was before. He shows her the castle's library and Bell
loves it because Bell loves books. Then that's all kind
of happens really fast. But then there's like, then there's
this a romantic evening where they basically have a ball,

(36:42):
but it's just the two of them and they both
get dressed up. Be very uncomfortable in real life, but
it's beautiful in the movie to have like it's did.
Just imagine like being dressed up in this huge crinoline
dress and then here the clink clink clink of forks
um with you and someone who's sitting really couldn't be
sitting further away from you. Um. We're like like yummy, um.

(37:07):
But it is romantic the way it's presented, and it's
so it's iconic. It's beautiful, and when they dance, it's
the first, like one of the I think it is
like the first computer generated animated shot ever featured in
a feature film. It's beauty. Yes, yeah, it's nice. And
this is also where we get the song pod as

(37:27):
old at time. It's nice. It's Angela Landsberry. And then
when Emma Thompson thinks that later, you're like, I love
Emma Thompson, but it's not fair that she had to.
You know, you're not going to do better than Angela
Landsberry's Angela Landsberry. You know they shouldn't have tried, but
they made a billion dollars, so they had to write.

(37:50):
So they're having this romantic evening. They're having a nice time.
But Bell is like, oh shucks, I miss my father,
and the Beast is like, well, here, look at him
in my magic mirror. And she sees in the mirror
that Maurice, who has been out looking for Bell, is
lost and alone and possibly dying. So she's like, hey, Beast,

(38:12):
I need to leave, and he's like, okay, you can leave.
You are no longer my prisoner. So she leaves the
castle and finds Maurice, and then once they're back home,
Gaston is like, oh shoot, like, if there's this beast
out there, we have to we have to get rid
of them. Gaston really as a villain, knows how to

(38:34):
think on his feet, because he goes in with a
game plan, and then he with a very evil game plan,
which is too basically imprison Maury's with a cartoon character
who terrified me as a child, the old man with
the scraggly hair, terrifying, terrifying, terrifying person. So his plan

(38:55):
is to basically throw Maurice away in exchange for Bell's
hand in Mary. That's what he goes in thinking, and
then he pivots and he's like, actually, we're going to
commit a murder right now, which is like galaxy brain
villain activity. I didn't this time. I this watch, I

(39:16):
was like, Wow, he really thought in his feet there,
and if he was on the right side of history,
imagine what we could have accomplished with Gaston because he
just like changed the plan so quickly and got everyone
on his side. And I feel like one of my
opinions that maybe has sort of changed between um, when
we first did this episode and now is I feel

(39:37):
like I vaguely remember being like, it's mean to the
townspeople to say that they would just you know, turn,
and they would be so gullible to have to turn
like that. Um, I don't feel that way anymore because
guess what, I've been alive for the past calendar year
and that happens all the fucking time. So now I'm like, wow,
that was hyper realistic. And I'm upset because especially because

(40:01):
they are set up from the beginning as like being
strong admirers of guests on they're like presentatives being just
kind of like sheeple who will go along with whatever
this like hunk Bully has to say, and so it
um it turns out they were right. I was naive

(40:24):
and this does happen. Um, It's basically just an anti
mask riot going to you know, murder someone for no
read These things happen, they happen. Yes, so yeah, Guston's like,
come on, everyone, grab your pitchforks and let's go kill
the beast, which is also a great song. And they

(40:45):
attacked the castle, but the enchanted objects fight back, and
Belle and Maurice, who are still locked up somewhere I
think their basement or something. I don't know, Chip, who
has stowed away when Bell left, help them escape. Bell
goes back to the castle and then Guston is about
to kill the beast. Uh, and there's an altercation there.

(41:09):
Gaston stabs the beast, which would not be happening these days.
We're not no longer would we have the main antagonist
actively stabbing stabbing stabbing. But I do, I do, I do?
Like the guest on um dies, Yeah, well he does

(41:29):
the classic Disney simply kill that. Yeah, he falls into
he falls into it in an infinity pit, but he
goes flat And I kind of miss when the villain
went splat. It made me miss nostalgic for when the
villain used to go splat. I get why the villain
no longer goes splat, and the villain you know, kind
of learns, oh, I was wrong and I'm going to rehabilitate.
But I kind of miss when they went splat. Does

(41:50):
that not happen in the remake? I feel like he
does to the remakes. The remakes all happen the same.
I'm talking about like New Original Disney story where I
feel like, more like maybe it's even like a Pixar thing,
but more often than not, like you get like a
Toy Story three thing where it's like, actually, the villain
had a traumatic backstory and their villainous with context, and

(42:12):
now they're going to start un learning the traumatic things
that made them villains and they're gonna be nice, which
is beautiful, but I kind of miss when they went splat. Sure, yeah, right, Okay,
So Guston first shoots Beasts with the bow and arrow
and then stabs him and like and then Beast is
like kind of ready to give up because he thinks
that Bell doesn't love him, but then Bell shows back

(42:34):
up at the castle. He's like, wait a minute, Bell
is back, Maybe she does love me so he kind
of gets a second wind, and there's this whole altercation.
Guest On falls off into the ravine. Um beausy. He
goes splat. Beast is dying from the stab wound. But
Bell is like, Beast, I love you, and that heels

(42:57):
his artery. Yes, that undoes the internal bleeding that he
is dying from, which is which is great for him,
and the spell has been broken. The Beast turns back
into a human prince. All the enchanted objects in the

(43:18):
castle turned back into people, and they all live happily
ever after. Sure we're not so why not that's the story.
Let's take a quick break and come back to discuss.
And we're back. Where should we start? I guess? I mean,

(43:43):
do I just start baby talking about um Bell? Does
that make sense? That makes so much sense to get
a place as I need to start. Yeah, I mean
I feel like this is like, uh, a discord as
old as time, Jamie, thank you so much, Bell. I

(44:06):
feel I mean this again, this is not a super compliment.
The bar is low. I still feel like Bell is
among at least foundationally, one of the stronger of the
nineties disnease princesses. And how she's written we will get
to I guess I'll just say what I like about
her character at the top. I like that she is UM.

(44:31):
I guess we don't necessarily know that she's intelligent. We
really just know she can read. We don't know what
her comprehension level is really UM, I think we're meant to.
I think like her loving to read is code for
it was like she's smart can be as interpreted as yes,
she's very smart. I like that she is confident in that,
and even when people give her shit about it, she

(44:53):
is still out there reading. I appreciate that. I appreciate
that her Unlike some you know, Disney family dynamics, her
dad UM is very supportive of the fact that she
loves to read. He is not actively trying to marry
her off to some random person. When Bell says that
she doesn't want to marry guests on, he respects that.

(45:16):
So I generally like the dynamic that they have. It
makes sense that this eccentric inventor would have a brainy daughter,
and he does, and he appreciates that, and they appreciate
each other. And I like that UM and I feel
like Bell is uh put In, and I guess this
is like an entryway to the rest of the conversation.

(45:38):
But she's put in a series of pretty impossible situations
and is making active decisions pretty frequently. Right, The situations
she's being put in and the choices that she makes
are certainly up for debate. But she is not like
a sleeping beauty path passive character. She is making decisions

(46:03):
actively throughout just the bummer that they were not better
choices are options at her disposal and then related to that,
I think is and this is part of a larger
conversation to be had also, But the Beast spends a
great deal of the movie mistreating her, and she does

(46:27):
push back on it a lot of the time, which
does which is good, which is good. So again, just
kind of a more maybe passive character or a less
thoughtfully written character would not have been characterized that way
to challenge the Beast in a lot of his behavior.

(46:50):
So I appreciated that that was like a nice thing
as a young person to see, especially to see like
a woman in a movie targeted word children to like
challenge like a man being shitty. Yes, I especially, I
mean we have talked to death, how imperfect nineties Third

(47:12):
wave feminism is, and I feel like Belle is very
solidly a part of that discussion, where it's like she
is doing a lot, and she's speaking up more and
she's pushing back, and she like values her intelligence and
her outcome is more or less the same as it
would be if she were not doing those things. So

(47:32):
that's not ideal, um, but I you know, it is definitely.
I feel like one of the things we lacked from
our first pass at this discussion was the context of
when this was coming out. And so when this was
coming out, the last Disney princess you had to compare
her against was Ariel, and so it's a step forward

(47:53):
in that regard. I also don't know how much we
talked about the screenwriter of this movie at the time. Um.
Linda Wolverton, who has kind of um even since we
last recorded, remained in this. I guess it's not I
don't know what to call it. She's written Disney heroines

(48:15):
for almost thirty years now, where she wrote Beauty and
the Beast. She did work on a Labin, She was
has a co writing credit on The Lion King. She
did work on Mulan. She wrote the screenplays for the
Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland, she wrote Maleficent, she wrote
Alice through the Looking Glass, and she wrote the second Maleficent.

(48:38):
So she's been in it for a bit writing. I
think these pretty commercially successful commercial feminism characters. Yes, so
you did. The Bell was very much a woman of
her time and by her time, I mean. One of

(49:00):
the big things that and I think this might be
sort of me repeating myself from the first episode, and
there will be a little bit of that, but well,
no one can go back and check, so well, yeah,
and then certainly I wouldn't, but I took issue with it,
then I take issue with it now still that One

(49:20):
of the big things that just strikes me about her
character in general is she is characterized in the very
beginning as her uh and this is so this is
a pretty standard thing for a lot of protagonists of
any story, where they are kind of equipped with a longing,
a desire, something that they want, some sort of like
empty void want Disney song, right, some some void in

(49:44):
their life that in theory will be fulfilled by the
end of the story, And a lot of times the
story is about how they go about filling that void
or whatever journey that they've gone on manages to fill
that void. So Bill's song her want is, and she
says it very explicitly in song form, I want much

(50:05):
more than this provincial life. I want adventure in the
great wide somewhere. So she's talking about I mean, well,
maybe she should have been more specific when she said somewhere, um,
but yes, yeah, she doesn't get what she wants right.
So she's talking about wanting to venture out into the
world and see what it has to offer, and rather

(50:26):
than doing that, she ends up sacrificing her freedom, so
her ability to do that for a man, her father,
and then falls in love with a different man, the
Beast by the end of the movie. So she doesn't
get adventure in the great wide somewhere unless you count
the confines of this castle the great wide somewhere, which

(50:50):
it shouldn't be like. It's this is like one of
the many ways that it becomes like. It's kind of
an impossible not impossible. There's a way to update a
very old story to make it to have it have
the core message of the original and also have it
feel very modern. I always go to like Cluelist for

(51:13):
a really good example of like this is a Jane
Austen story, but it doesn't feel like it at all,
and and it feels very of the time it was released.
I feel like Beauty and the Beast. Maybe it doesn't
really retain those same qualities because the this is again
just like for So for Forever, Disney and a lot

(51:35):
of you know, heavily funded popular media does not take
chances on original stories very often, so we get these
old this is an old French story, and it follows
all the beats of that story and then tries to
insert all this modern sensibility into it. But the modern
sensibility is kind of chafe with the story they're adapting.

(51:57):
So it ends up like the modern things they're inserting
into this movie don't really end up paying off in
any meaningful way, because it still ends like it did
in the seventeen hundreds or the eighteen hundreds, and so
it's like it's not It ends up almost like making
you feel a little more bummed out because because Bell
doesn't get what she wants, and it's a very like

(52:19):
progressive thing to say, like, oh, and she wants so
much more, but that's unfortunately not how this story goes,
and it's like, well, then why did you have what?
Then maybe why did you ever say it? Then you
know it? Or if if you want to write a
movie about a young woman who kind of feels trapped
in this kind of small town life and wants to
venture out and like go off on an adventure, then

(52:42):
don't adopt Beauty and the Beast story. Like the modern
stuff shapes with the source material and then it never
really I feel like it kind of fails to meet
in the middle in a way that doesn't you know,
that doesn't matter that much if you're like five years old,
I'm watching the But as an adult you're like, oh,
I mean, if we're even going from like the Disney

(53:05):
formula of like the main character singing about what they
want at the beginning of the movie, you know, at
least Aerial technically gets what she wanted, which was to
live above water, and she does get that by the
end of the movie, Um, she accomplishes that goal. Bells
Dulls song should have been about something different. She should

(53:26):
have like sung about like I want to have a
gigantic library because she gets that. Like if we if
we need the story to end with her living in
a castle, nearby. Then it's a bummer to have her
dream be like really not that at all or even
I mean, if she just wants like romantic love in

(53:48):
her life and that's like the thing that she longs
for and there's no suitable suitors in town, and even
like just like someone who it would even work if
it's like she wants to like a live in a
place where she feels understood, or like where she feels
like her interests are, like, it doesn't even need to
be necessarily a romantical she can just be like, I

(54:10):
want to feel understood by someone other than my weird dad.
Like that's a relatable goal to be, Like, I feel
misunderstood where I live. I want to live in a
community where people respect where I'm coming from and they
understand me regardless of the coordinates of where it is.
But that's not that's just not her goal. She's just like,
I want to live anywhere else, and then she doesn't,

(54:32):
And it's a bummer, Um, but I don't. I mean,
it's part of the I feel like part of the
fun of talking about this movie is nitpicking it. But yeah,
it is like that that is a really fundamental, like
she doesn't get what she wanted, and that makes me
I like to think they moved, you know, because all
that this whole movie takes place over the course of
a couple of days. Who knows what happens next week.

(54:53):
I like to think of the Straight to V just
stuff definitely not canon. They move, they move, even just
the fact that she says I want adventure, and again
like she doesn't unless you count being a prisoner. I guess,
I mean, I guess getting held prisoner is it's a venture.
I mean, that's a it's a it's a really shitty

(55:16):
the adventure. The adventure. Um, I think a movie that
obviously comes out much later but handles this way better
is mo Wanna, because she has a very standard like
I have this longing, this thing that I desire, and
it's to be out on the sea. She also wants

(55:37):
adventure in the great wide somewhere, which is the sea.
And then that's what the entire movie is about, adventure.
And then she finds a home within herself, and she
does in his whole journey, and it's like and Bell,
I mean, that's just especially where like Disney movies are
at it this time, I feel like and I want.

(55:58):
I mean, I would be so curious to hear what
the writing process of this movie was like in terms
of like what kind of notes would you be getting
back in the late eighties early nineties when when Linda
Wolverton was writing this thing. I'm sure it was messy
as hell. Like I would be so curious of like
what she tried to write in that didn't really get

(56:19):
there and like where is the line? I guess because
it's it's yeah, I mean, it's it's like movie the
even even Disney movies have come you know, reasonably far
um outside and again it's a kind of outside of
their reboot sphere. Their original stories have come pretty far.
But yeah, it's it's it's just weird. There's just a

(56:42):
little bit of dissonance watching it back as an adult
because it's just like the movie is ultimately not that
invested in what Bell's goals are, not at all, and
that that, yeah, brings me to a whole bel I have.
But just to kind of go back to what you're

(57:02):
just saying, there are let me count ten or leven
ten somewhere around their story by credits for this movie.
So there's a screenwriter who wrote the screenplay, but then
there are additional like ten story by credits, and that
doesn't always mean that like ten people worked equally on

(57:26):
the story together. You know, some people get story by
credits because they wrote like two lines of dialogue kind
of like you know, just like weird things like that.
The industry is weird sometimes. But um, it seems like
there were a lot of people and a lot of
just kind of like two many I mean, when too many,
too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah, but it's like
this is how these Disney movies go where, Like it's

(57:48):
so it's always so interesting to hear when someone is
a little bit outside of that Disney machine and they
speak more frankly about like these are the kind of
notes I was getting. This is like what the conversations
actually were, because like a story by credit could mean
kind of anything, especially in animation, Like it's so vague

(58:10):
what would constitute a story by credit. And there are
there's there's one woman on this team. There's one woman
on the story by team. And then the screenplay credit
is also a woman, but that's not that's not proportionate,
and it shows there's a man named Kelly. Oh yeah, okay,

(58:34):
but yeah, it's it's weird. I mean, I feel like
this is unfortunately we are still in the era of
Disney movies with empty feminism. We're not We're not out
of it. There's a few exceptions, but for the most part,
we're still not out of the empty feminist capitalism movement.
But but this, but a lot of the foundation is
kind of being laid during the Disney renaissance of like

(58:57):
we're going to give a nod to all the ladies
out there, but guess what, honey, You're still going to
marry the emotionally abusive guy at the end. And that's
something I know that It's like again, it's like part
of this is criticizing the source material. And ultimately it's like,
if you don't want these story problems, don't adapt these

(59:20):
old ask stories like centuries old. The best way to
combat uh and like prejudice shit is not to adapt
the oldest story you can possibly find. It's a great
way to do it. But the same way where like
with the with the relationship with Bell and the Beast,
where there's a lot to talk about here and a

(59:40):
lot of it is like kind of boring discussion. But
I do feel like, ultimately, you know, the burden of
forgiveness lays on Bell in a way that is not fair,
like in a way that is expecting a lot. It
is very And I don't think that he really you know,

(01:00:02):
I think that the beast certainly demonstrates growth throughout the story.
Sure would I would I, you know, were I in
her shoes? Would I feel he has earned forgiveness? Maybe
not for me, No, I think maybe he's you know,
he's also he's been on this journey for two days,
like let's let's see some more results. Um. Yeah. And

(01:00:25):
and the but the burden of forgiveness very much laze
on Bell or the story can't resolve exactly. And that
brings me to a little segment I would like to
call the expectations of women's expectations. But but but hit
it is that a song from the movie or is
that just your own song? Um? That was the Price

(01:00:47):
is Right theme song? Okay, good, Okay. So I think
that this is a thing that's true in real life,
and I think it's reflected in media where when it
comes to hetero romance, women tend to be expected to
have low standards for men. Uh, in a bunch of

(01:01:09):
different areas, areas like personality, emotional intelligence, emotional maturity, hygiene,
et cetera amount of ship you will put up with
before bailing, yes, And a lot of that comes from
the boys will be boys mentality, where you know, all
men are just gonna sunk up there. This is just

(01:01:30):
how they are. They don't know how to be people,
and we just have to forgive them, which plays very
much into male redemption arcs. And this, to me, is
a story that is largely about the beast getting to
redeem himself. And you know there's other kind of thematic
things happening, but that's a big part of the story.

(01:01:51):
In the reboot, they managed to make it a story
about fathers and sons, which I hated. Not any animated
one is simply a man who needs redeeming, like needs redeeming,
and then like being allowed and like everyone like giving
him the space to be able to redeem himself. And
I've stated in other episodes how I'm generally not thrilled

(01:02:15):
with a lot of redemption like male redemption stories. And
it's not also how low the bar is that you
need to clear in order to warrant a redemption redemption,
which is like, yeah, like stop holding a woman prisoner
is a very low bar you have to clear for
only a couple of hours before immediately being like, you

(01:02:38):
know what I have, I'm back right, okay, bleak, And
I want to be clear, it's not that I think
that people and men in particular don't deserve second chances
and shots at redemption. I'm not saying that. I think
it's a very like case by case basis, you know,
what did you do and and do you observe a

(01:03:00):
shot at redemption is very generous a scenario by scenario,
thank you so much. But so many cinematic stories are
about male redemption because like, people are just conditioned to
be way more tolerant of men's mistakes and just expect
that men will make a bunch of mistakes and be
perfectly willing to give them second chances. But on the

(01:03:23):
flip side of that, which is this double standard of
women just kind of being expected to be perfect from
the start, we don't really tolerate a woman's redemption because
we don't tolerate anything besides a woman being There shouldn't
be a need for a woman's redemption, because a woman
should have just like done everything right from the beginning,

(01:03:44):
which and also the and also I feel like in
these sorts of stories, specifically, women are not given enough
narrative space to even make a mistake, Like they're mostly
just cleaning up after the men that they are beholden
to stuff for like, Bell gets into this whole situation
because Maurice didn't turn his GPS on right like he

(01:04:06):
he gets lost. She's cleaning up his she's rescuing him,
which is good. She's rescuing him. That is an active decision.
That's like, I don't dislike the Maurice Bell relationship. You know,
it's like we've all cleaned up after a parent. But
but it's like, you know, she doesn't really have the

(01:04:26):
space to make a mistake because Gaston's coming at her
from one end. Maurice is sucking up over here now
the beast is holding her prisoner. When is she She's, yeah,
she didn't have any space to to do and she
hasn't no a woman, you know. So it's just nor
is she written to be a character who would make
a mistake, because she's basically written to be perfect, even
though the the town thinks she's weird. But we are

(01:04:49):
not meant to root for the townspeople. But yeah, it's
like they hate her because she is the nineties ideal
of what a woman is, which is right, completely hot, perfect,
Western beauty standards ten and a genius. She's a hot
genius and in eighteen something France, people are like, what's
going on, But it's like that's, you know, whatever the

(01:05:11):
cultural ideal is to be a hot genius. The townspeople
are presented as you know, anyone. They're not they're not
going to appreciate creativity or innovation or anything that's like
new or different. You know. They are the type of
people who know, and they're they're also they also fall
victim to have just like animation stuff of like they're
drawn to look poor and Bell is you know, of

(01:05:34):
their class, but she's drawn to look not like them.
Her her character design is something we've talked about, you know,
to death, but like she's designed to be a woman, yeah,
and not just human woman, but like Western beauty standards
beautiful human woman. Yeah, Like she's drawn to look like
an algorithm, you know, image of like the perfect is

(01:05:58):
what she's drawn like, and everyone else is a literal
cartoon because it's a cartoon. Yes. So, so Bell is,
like we said, she's a genius. She's very smart, she's
well read, she's beautiful. Her name is literally means beautiful.
She's ambitious, even though she never gets to realize any

(01:06:18):
of her ambitions. She's this like perfect character without any flaws,
although I would argue that she is too forgiving of
people who mistreat her um, but that's not that was
considered a flaw exactly. Well that that's also not what
the movie wants you to think. This is just what
I think about it. They're like, oh, no, forgiving the

(01:06:38):
Like I think that the movie is like, oh no,
forgiving the Beast is what a beautiful genius would do. Like,
I think that's where we're supposed to get. It's hard
to get there these days, but like, I think that
that's where you were supposed to get. Because so, I
think this story would be way more interesting if Bell
had a flaw and also had character growth and a

(01:07:03):
character arc, much like the Beast does. But she is
presented as someone who from the very start has the
capacity to look beyond someone's external appearance and see beauty
from within. Because this story wants to be about like,
can someone possibly fall in love with a beast someone
who's so hideous on the outside. But Belle is presented

(01:07:27):
as someone who would always have the capacity to be
able to do that. So there's no arc there, there's
no She's just like flat from the start. Yeah, it's
like she doesn't really change, Like she mostly is just
kind of managing a lot of situations that want she's
doing it all, but she basically remains the same person

(01:07:49):
fundamentally because it's like she is because even when she's
afraid of him, it makes sense that she would be
afraid of him. He is threatening her with imprisoned with
with Like it's never it's never that she Like I
think that that's like another thing where I kind of get, like,
what happened? What is what is happening here? With the

(01:08:10):
like nineties sensibility being inserted into this centuries old story
where a Belle really never never judges the beast for
being other, you know, like she never really judges him
for looking different than her. She really only gets upset
with him when he's mean violence, Like, so I agree

(01:08:32):
with that. So it's like it's she doesn't really have
an art from being like I judged him based on
his appearance too. Now I have learned that there's no
way to live your life. But that's never a problem
for her. She never judges him based on his appearance.
She judges him strictly based on how he behaves towards
her right and the whole curse that the Enchantress and

(01:08:55):
cannot say this word Enchantress puts on the beast. The
Prince at the beginning is like, oh, you're good luck
finding someone who's going to love you because you're a
beast now and it's all about, you know, finding beauty
with his problem as he was an asshole, right, but yeah,
what beauty within? This guy sucks. He's so mean an

(01:09:20):
awful and he treats Bell if something like just to
run through everything he does. On the first night alone,
he imprisons her and takes away all of her freedom
for the flimsiest reason imaginable. He demands that Bell joined
him for dinner. He screams at her while doing this,
He threatens her saying come out or I'll break down

(01:09:42):
the door. He then tells her to starve. Then he
invades her privacy by spying on her through the magic mirror.
Later that night, after she's gone into the west wing,
he screams at her again. He violently throws furniture around.
Just his actions are very alarming and it's scary and

(01:10:03):
to the point where she runs away for her dear
life kind of thing. And and the whole thing is like, oh,
he just needs to learn to control his temper, right,
But it's I mean, it's like, yeah, but which is
which is true? He does need to learn how to
control this temperature. But that doesn't mean that whatever. The
burden of forgiveness thing always bugs me in any story

(01:10:24):
because it's like, if someone behaves horribly towards you, you
are not obligated to forgive them like they hopefully they
will work in themselves and not perpetuate that behavior to
other people. But that doesn't mean that you have to
personally be like I forgive you. That's not always guaranteed
in the way that like, not everyone's going to be

(01:10:44):
able to forgive that behavior. And that makes a lot
of sense went others furtituate you. You know that is
going to take more than two days to forgive. And
that's the other thing too, is I always forget how
little time is spent on screen in this movie, developing
their romance because basically be sall for though so sometimes

(01:11:07):
been like in the Twee thousands, Okay, this is like
a super nippic In the they have a little snowball
fight and it's kind of cute and you're like, Oh,
they're starting to get along. That's nice. One he like
throws a huge snowball at her head and like knocks
her with intent to kill. Um, that doesn't happen. I

(01:11:27):
had to go back to, Oh, he doesn't throw anything
at her. No, it's in terms of snow it's her
throwing a bunch of snowballs at him, and then he
gets a snowball together, but then he doesn't throw it
at her. He's like te heat because because he would
hurt her, because he would do my killer. Because she
throws a snowball at him and he has like the
big one lifted over his head, but then it like

(01:11:49):
falls onto his head also, so he just gets pelted
with her snowballs his own snowballs. Yeah, it's very very
fun and flirty. Um, it's a very already snowball fight.
You know, like, has he really earned the snowball fight?
I guess that that's certainly up for debate, but like
it's not a violent, violent altercation. And Emma Wattson gets

(01:12:11):
like like Kama Kazi with a snowball. It's yeah, she
falls down and then he laughs about it. It's horrifying.
Also in the I do think that the live action
remake does attempt to draw out they're developing romance more,
but they don't do it well because of that scary

(01:12:33):
snowball fight and the beast just like neg spell a bunch.
He's like, oh, you like Romeo and Juliet typical that
you'd love that romantic drivels just all like it's not
very sweet. Um. And then it doesn't help that the
that the two actors have like no chemistry whatsoever, like

(01:12:53):
the most chemistry I feel. And I am not a
Josh Gad fan, as listeners know, I find him to
be a very frustrating person. But I felt like Luke
Evans and Josh Gad had the best chemistry between two
actors in the entire movie because they were like, we
can actually sing, so let's just hang out and have

(01:13:14):
a good time. But no one else, I mean, my god,
the yeah, like Emma Watson and that pile of tennis
balls did not have They kept nagging her, did not
have any chemistry. It just didn't. I you know, it's
like I appreciate, but again it's like I think, watching
these two right in a row, it's clear which one

(01:13:37):
is superior. But even so, like seeing one sensibilities plugged
into an old as story with the Disney formula didn't
really logistically work if you think about it, and then
seeing the same thing be attempted in doesn't work because
now the values are even further apart than they were,

(01:13:59):
you know, fifty years ago, and so it makes even
less sense that they would end up together at the end.
If we're going to make this with values, they would
not end up together right the end. It's make a
different movie. But they can't. They can't do that. They
need a billion dollars literally so badly, so they have
to do it. I also just wonder, so oh so,

(01:14:21):
what I was saying is that so little screen time
is spent in the ninety one version developing the romance,
which just like he shows her a library and suddenly
she's like he's not so bad, Like he was just
screaming at you and nearly killing you. To be fair,
Bell wants free books really bad. She's been conning her

(01:14:42):
way into free books for a long time, and so
this is actually a big opportunity for her. She could
maybe like start flipping these books. They look antique, they
look so if she's in it for the free books,
oh my god boy, and she right, man, that's such
a more interesting story to me. If she's like, yeah,

(01:15:04):
I'll pretend to be in love with this guy and
like make a life with him just so I can
have access to these millions of books in his library.
It seems like there's only one guy to get them
from in her entire zip code. And she seems like,
you know, it's a small shop. He never has any
new books in. She's like, do you have anything new?
And he's like no, and she's like, oh my god,

(01:15:25):
Like so I see that, you know, based on the
scarcity of of literary works in this area, maybe that's
a reason to hang out. But but it's also like,
I don't know, I just it's such a it's such
a mess. This whole relationship is such as I really,

(01:15:47):
I mean, I feel like the most and this is
like addressed in a different Lindsay Hollis video. But the
most popular criticism of the Bell Beast relationship is that
she has Stockholm syndrome, which is just like just a
fun little history lesson for everybody. That Stockholm syndrome is
like whatever, it's I feel like the popular interpretation of

(01:16:09):
it is it's like when you begin to feel empathy
for someone who is your captor who is not treating
you all. But it's like a false it's just kind
of a false premise for any sort of like psychological
reaction to a situation, because the whole thing of Stockholm
syndrome was that there was a group of people who

(01:16:30):
were taken hostage in a bank, and the reason that
they began to empathize with their captors is because they
were terrified of the police, who were probably going to
kill them if they walked outside. So it kind of
has like, really, there's a lot that's been written about it,
but it has very little to do with like, oh,

(01:16:51):
now I love my captor. My captor is amazing. It's like, no,
I feel like my captor is less likely to kill
me and has a less vested interest in killing me
then a cop. So, um, it's not as far as
I know, there's no cops in Bell's neighborhood, which is amazing,
I mean, utopia, it's good. So so the whole Stockholm

(01:17:16):
syndrome thing is just like a nonstarter in terms of
any sort of meaningful discussion. I do I do think
that it's like there's a pressure put on that character
to really do some empathy gymnastics and forgiveness gymnastics in
a way that doesn't really match up with the character

(01:17:38):
that we've been introduced to. I mean, even though it's
like she she clearly has a big capacity for empathy
and understanding because she is a hot genius who is
perfect um, but we're also told that the Beast doesn't
really come into like what her goals are, and and
we learned so early in the movie that it's really

(01:17:59):
easy for her to get away from him if she
wants to, um, right, And why wouldn't she want to
because he's horribly mistreating her. Yeah, it's again just like
the values of the stories are chafing with each other
in a way that's kind of like, you know, if
if you look, if you if you squint at it
a little bit, you're like, oh, I guess that doesn't

(01:18:19):
really make sense. It's yeah, what I feel like is
I don't know, this is okay, here's my heart tick
of the episode. Please. The ending of this movie really
made me appreciate the ending of Shrek, because Shrek Shrek

(01:18:40):
was going to come up today, you know, for Jeffrey Katzenberg.
You text. I woke up to a text about Shrek
from you. Oh can I read it? Yes? Please? I said, sorry,
let me find it here. Also, I got my email
today saying my Shrek three laundres on the way. Oh
my good news at a sign I can't fun. We

(01:19:01):
just text too much, it's too far back, but we
simply have too healthier friendship. Wait where wait? Yes, you said, um,
look all I'm saying as we should cover Shrek to
this year, and are you wrong? Certainly not, certainly not.
I'm actually very right. But the ending of Shrek right,

(01:19:22):
So the So these are two katzenberg um masterpieces we're
talking about, you know, our I p quilby all of that.
I'm also seeing, as it relates to Jeffrey Katzenberg and
Beauty and the Beast, that the reason there are so
many story by credits on this movie is because of
Jeffrey Katzenberg. He had the entire first draft of this movie,

(01:19:44):
which was non musical, scrapped and we've written as a musical.
So that is part of the reason why there's so
many storybis is because there's just a ton of different
versions of it. Um. But the ending where I feel
like the ending of Shrek is a bit more impactful,
and here's why, is because, um, Shrek at the end.

(01:20:06):
First of all, we have like a lot of like
beauty normative issues in this movie right where there's a
very like rigid binary of like good equals Western beauty
standards of whatever the movies year released into standards, um
bad equals literally anything else, and this movie definitely subscribes

(01:20:29):
to that kind of thing, I guess with the exception
of guest On, but Shrek, you know, at the end,
Fiona goes out of the Western beauty standards character and
becomes a person or an ogre rather who she's more
comfortable as and feels more fully herself. And that's the

(01:20:49):
happy ending, as they are both like just feeling their
truest selves and they don't care what anyone thinks. Whereas
the way this movie ends and the way that men
movies end is like the the Beast is designed to
be this other character and it's like he's not even
like they somehow managed to make the Beast kind of

(01:21:10):
hot I stand by to this day. But you know,
he's he's this other character and then he's a monster, right,
and then at the end he's he looks like Patrick
Wilson and Phantom of the Opera. He is, you know,
a rich white guy with longish hair, and this is
his quote unquote reward for two days of working on himself.

(01:21:32):
And that's just like kind of a very that's a
very like you know, simple hollow ending and just again
kind of enforces that rigid beauty binary that exists in
you know, everything to this day, but in this movie
it's pretty egregious because it's a fairy tale where things

(01:21:53):
tend to be very rigid, and it's also kind of
validating that rigidity by inserted all this nineties mentality into
it and kind of like validates it in a way
that I feel like doesn't work super well. I agree. Yeah, Yeah,
we could talk about Monster other ring characters all day long,

(01:22:15):
and we've we've talked about it in in other episodes
as well, But yeah, that I mean, that's I feel
like one of the more egregious elements of movies like this. Again,
I guess I would say with the exception of Gaston,
who I guess is there to be like even if
someone is you know, I think I think we're supposed
to think, you know, Gaston, he's like at this man's
man and he's you know, the masculine ideal, but it's

(01:22:38):
very toxic and it's so I guess it kind of
succeeds in the Gaston area, But then with the main
with the movies two title characters, it's just kind of
like fart noise for me, you know, right, because with Guston,
he is the embodiment of toxic masculinity. And I appreciate
that his toxic masculine, his fragile male ego, his misogyny

(01:23:03):
are all vilified. Like these are traits that he is
openly displaying and the movie is showing you, look how
bad this is. And I feel like the modern elements
and started into that are some of them more like
more effective ones in this adaptation, like the way that Gaston,
the way that we're told that Gaston is a bad guy,

(01:23:26):
and also the ways that we understand why people think
he's a good guy. I feel like it kind of.
It's still pretty much works for me, right, except for
this one little thing. So, like the movie is like
beauties in the eye of the beholder. You have to
see someone's interviewed to a woman unless you and you
better beautiful the whole damn time. So the reason that

(01:23:50):
Gaston is designed to be like traditionally classically handsome is that, like,
even though all the other towns people kind of fall
under his like, oh what a handsome popular, like you know,
quarterback of the football team kind of guy, but we
all love even though he's horribly toxic, Bell doesn't fall
for that because she sees that he has no inner beauty. Right,

(01:24:15):
But it makes me wonder why does she not put
up with Gaston's mistreatment of you know, her and the
other people around, but she she does tolerate it In
the beast, I like that. I mean, my guess is
that goes back to the fairytale logic of Again, it's

(01:24:36):
like whatever these stories are, so it doesn't work when
you stretch it out for an hour and a half.
But my guests would be that the beast with this
story logic the Beast does two or three things to
indicate that he could possibly change down the line, whereas
Gaston does zero things and he doubles down in his
negative qualities. That would be my guess, But it's I mean,

(01:24:58):
it's still like it's a very simplistic way of approaching it.
But I'm pretty sure that that's the vibe they're trying
to strike there, and I don't know they're also it's
so and then and then we haven't even talked about
the staff. That's another fun thing where it's like you
would think, you would think and maybe we even said

(01:25:19):
this in our first past at this episode, oh, I
want to know more about the lives of the working
class you know, servants working in this castle. But again,
if you want that sort of examination and discussion, you
really just it can't be this story because if you
add in. I found the way that they attempted to

(01:25:42):
mitigate that issue in and adaptation to be horrifying and
pretty jarring and like kind of upsetting to have to watch,
because you know, it's like again it's like, whatever, this
is the story. The story does frame all of the
you know, household objects that used to be servants as

(01:26:04):
side characters and sidekicks, and there is something to be
said about, like, well, you know, why are are we
making anyone who is poor very much a side character,
except for I guess technically Bell, who doesn't seem like
she's extremely well off because her father hasn't invented anything yet, right,
But in any case, like, I think that there is

(01:26:26):
something to be said for kind of the way that
people of different classes are stylized in the way their
stories are treated. But then in the movie they try
to give like Loomire and Cogsworth backstories, but then it
just becomes like so sad, it becomes really really upsetting
because you just are constantly thinking about how their lives

(01:26:46):
are on the line based on whether Bell tolerates abuse
or not. And that's just kind of Ten Miles of
Bad Road narratively, where it's like, oh, this woman who
we know does not you know, she said at the
beginning of the movie she doesn't want to be here,
but now if she doesn't stay here, the like people

(01:27:08):
are gonna die. In thee when we're at the end,
I was like, oh, where they like are They're all dying,
Like they're like their faces are disappearing they're like turning
to stone and you're like, this is not how I
want Like, I guess I didn't want this. I guess
I didn't want this. I want this, I didn't want it.

(01:27:28):
It's really scary to look at and think about, and
um and and again. It's by trying to address that,
it puts more narrative pressure on Bell too theoretically act
against her own interests of what she said she wanted, like, well,
now she has to go back to the beast, whether
he improves or not, or all of her friends are

(01:27:49):
going to die. Like that's not a good vibe to
bring into the chat. That's a huge sacrifice. Cartoons. She
wasn't dealing with that little dark cloud over her head.
That was really upsetting. At the end, I'm like, Emma Watson,
you gotta get back there. Yeah, is dusting in that castle.

(01:28:11):
You're gonna go save him. You're gonna let Audre McDonald die.
I don't think, so go back to that pilot tennis ball.
Stanley Tucci's keys aren't going to be able to play themselves.
Any life is on the line here. Well, here's something
I didn't pick up on in our first rendition of
this episode that I find extremely troubling. No, some of

(01:28:35):
the in fact, many of the lyrics to one of
the best songs in the movie be Our Guest, are
very fucked up because the lyrics are all about how
the servants actually love being servants to the ruling class,
and if they're not being servants to the ruling class,
then their lives are actually pointless. And yes, I find

(01:28:56):
that which is it's kind of like I was thinking
for too. I just think that that's like a funny
premise to try to update, because that would be kind
of the cultural equivalent of like a barista thinking about like,
if I'm not frothing up milk, I might as well
be dead. Like that is kind of because it's like
like they're they're working job, like no one is like

(01:29:19):
if I can't froth milk, I wish to die. Like
no one feels that way about their job. No one
feels that way. What do we feel that way? Are we?
Like if I can't pod, I might as well roll
over and die. I do feel that way, Oh my god,
my god. But like just I mean, I just also
find it especially weird. I don't know when this story

(01:29:41):
takes place in relation to the French Revolution, but like
it's just so weird for this like French story to
be like, yes, we the proletariat actually love serving the
bourgeois class and if we can't do it, then we
what are the lyrics? It's like life is so unnerving

(01:30:02):
for a servant who's not serving, he's not whole without
a soul to wait upon, like when especially when we
know that like that that was an amazing point with
like the especially in France in the eight hundreds. This
is a weird vibe to be, you know, taking on.
It's like, I mean, it's like having a bunch of

(01:30:23):
people being like Jeff Bezos and he awesome, especially, but
we know that their boss specifically is not nice to them,
like really really mean to them, and we also it
also is just like another I don't know the music
and this movie is so beautiful, and it's also like

(01:30:44):
some of Howard Ashman's like final work, and he's such
an icon and this movie is dedicated to his memory
because he I believe he passed away before it came out,
and like he's just so amazing, and it feels like
the lyrics from Howard Ashman and the screenplay are often
in conflict because it's like Howard Ashman's lyrics say Bell

(01:31:05):
wants more than this story says, actually, no, she doesn't.
Lyrics say we love being members of the proletariat a
fucking rocks, But the screenplay says that they really desperately
want to be people again, so like they don't want
to be dishes, which makes sense right, Like it's so

(01:31:29):
there's a little bit of calm, I mean whatever, it's
a kids movie, but there's definitely there's definitely conflict there. Yeah.
Here's also something that we I think we talked we
touched on this in the first episode, but um of
the enchanted objects, the quote female objects a k a.
The characters who are voiced by voice actors who are women,

(01:31:53):
tend to be traditionally like feminine objects. For example, feather dust, yes,
cleaning supplies, cooking supplies, women a wardrobe because women be
trying on clothes, you know, not like telling time that's
a man that's job. Yes, yeah, yeah, like traditionally feminine.

(01:32:15):
And that was another thing that the reboots sucked at,
where they're like, Okay, we gotta make Bell a feminist icon.
How do we do this? And then I heard that
this was Emma Watson's idea, and I laughed and laughed
and laughed, um until I cried. The like in the movie,
Bell is also an inventor, but she invents laundry things,

(01:32:37):
and that was Emma Watson's idea. She's like wow. She
was like out here in interviews being like I told
them Bell's got to make a laundry machine. And I
was like, okay, all right, if you insist they did it. Um,
it was weird, but they did it. Um. Yeah. But yeah,
the like equating female voices with traditionally like female caretaking tasks.

(01:33:05):
Another thing about the br guest song, and this has
always bugged me. But so Belle skips dinner with the
bast because he is uh, he wants her to starve
and die. But then she doesn't eat. She goes downstairs
because she's hungry. A bunch of food gets made and
brought out, but she never we never see her eat

(01:33:25):
any of it, except for like getting just like little
tiny tastes of stuff. Thank you of her a doggy bag.
I just I hope. So, but like, why are movies
so against letting us see women eat on screen? Okay, yeah,
I do see that to the point where the same
thing happens in remake and if they fade the black,

(01:33:49):
like like does she have sex with the pudding? Like
why are we fading the black? What is this? They
kind of make it a joke like where she is
very desperately trying to like grab food to eat, but
that keeps like prancing away because it's like dishes who
have personalities or whatever. I hate that damn movie. I'm
just like, well, then do it, do it or don't
do it. Don't be a cute with me. Let us

(01:34:11):
see bell eat. That's my main issue with this movie. No,
but we don't really. Yeah, I mean she she drinks
soup later on, yeah the fu Yeah that's her first
meal is three days later she drinks she finally gets
to eat some porridge. So that's too bad. Yeah that
but that the animation and that scene is so beautiful,

(01:34:34):
so good. It's so good. It's such a fun movie.
I just I love it. Um yeah, So I'm trying
to think of what else we got here. Um yeah,
I guess just going back into like we we've basically
touched on this, but just the kind of inherent like
I I felt almost like, uh, this is the wrong

(01:34:58):
movie to equate it with, but the general energy of
like a Revenge of the Nerds kind of redemption are
going on with The Beast, where I feel like it's
kind of pretty common in movies for a character that
is treating a woman shitty at the beginning to um
very intentionally say hey, if I do A B and C, like,

(01:35:20):
I will have demonstrated enough growth to earn this woman
and then I will have her and then she will
be mine as my prize. Yeah, right, And I think
that that is kind of how the Beasts storyline plays out,
as he does one or two things to demonstrate growth,
which is good, We're going in the right direction here,
But then he's immediately quote unquote rewarded with the unconditional

(01:35:42):
love of a woman whose forgiveness he has not necessarily earned, right,
And I feel like that is like just kind of
a thing that we see play out in real life
over and over and over of like why did this thing?
Why do you not? Why are you not my bride?
It's like, know, that's just how like people who aren't

(01:36:02):
assholes act like there isn't necessarily a prize in demonstrating
personal growth. UM. Sometimes that is the prize is that
you suck less. That's the prize is you're less of
an asshole. Now you don't get something right, Beasts goes
from being violent, abusive, scary too, just like being bare

(01:36:27):
minimum decent. Like he nothing gets even established about why
they might be compatible romantic partners. He just goes from
being frightening to no longer being frightening. I feel like
it's like we see like a little I I definitely
see in the definitely not much of my own teen one,

(01:36:48):
but the I see a capacity for growth. I don't
think that he earns the love, the eternal love and
trust of someone. Inside of a couple of days, it
seems like he is on an arc towards being a
better person, and in kind of more concrete ways, he's
like having to challenge his own entitlement to people. And

(01:37:09):
it's like, that's the message we're supposed to get when
he quote unquote let's Bell go, even though she can
technically whenever she wants whatever, um, when he lets her go,
that's like an unselfish act that he does that we're
supposed to be like, oh, okay, so he's behaving less
entitled to access to people and access to people's time
and attention, and like putting others someone's, someone else's interest

(01:37:33):
before his own. That is as certainly a step, that's
a step in the right direction. Great, sure, but yeah
it's like but then immediately rewarding that one that one thing, um,
but I mean in that that's not good, right? And
I agree that he definitely demonstrates more capacity for growth
than the other, the live action version and just in general.

(01:37:56):
But even so, where's the compatibilit city between them, even
if he grows and becomes a kind gentle person, what
are they compatible about? Snowball snowballs? They both like throwing snowballs.
They like to throw snowballs at each other, and they
like to save each other from wolves, and thus is

(01:38:17):
kind of and so I think if you can find
someone like that, we really can't let him go. That's
what I mean, a matchmate in heaven. I That's what
really bothers me about a lot of romantic stories is
that we've talked about this before. It's like, well, why
do they like each other? Oh, because they're both hot
and they're near each other. In this movie, it's one

(01:38:37):
of them is hot and they're near each other, and
well it's like even like yeah, and it's like and
then they end up together because one is no longer
being actively antagonistic, which is honestly more than we get
in some movies, Like there are some romantic movies that
end with one of the hot parties still being actively
antagonistic to the other. True, but now it's cute because reasons. Um. Yeah,

(01:39:00):
I just I think compatibility gets skipped over a lot,
and I think that romantic movies need to pay more
attention to it. Well yeah, and it's again, that's like
another thing that makes sense in the context of the
fairy tale, where like everyone is like marriage was not

(01:39:22):
necessarily a love game, but when they're applying the nineties
values of marriage is very much a love game. Um.
In an individual choice, the end game of the story
ceases to make sense. Um, which is why they just
write and just let them write an original story. Then yeah,
I just I feel like, especially as time goes on,

(01:39:44):
not that Disney is ever going to stop cashing this
check for a billion dollars, it's just whatever, Like mindful adaptation.
It's not impossible to adapt an old story with contemporary values,
but you can't just kind of copy pay them in
where it suits you, Like, there has to be meaningful
adaptation choices made, or any level of scrutiny is going

(01:40:08):
to cause the whole thing to kind of fall apart.
And yeah, like that's definitely an example of where it
falls apart. Here is like if we're coming at this
from the like you marry for love, not for survival,
um this the ending to this story makes no sense
because they're not compatible. In the fairy tale, that probably
mattered less, but in the theoretically that should that did matter?

(01:40:31):
I did. I don't know. The movie is really good,
but it's a mess. Does it pass the victal test?
I think we decided that it's like sort of between
her and the wardrobe, right, that was that was? Yes?
I think maybe they or her and Bell and Mrs Potts,
but I think it was like sort of kind of

(01:40:51):
maybe sometimes. I think it's one of those things where
it's like, even if they have a two line exchange
where a man does not get explicitly mentioned, I think
the text of every conversation is still about preventing the
beast from murdering me today. Yeah, so I think either
the beast or like Maurice is the context of every conversation. Sure,

(01:41:14):
so I would say, considering context, I would give it
a knot. I'm gonna give it a not. The nineteen
one does pass the Bechtel test, but it's maybe the
weirdest TV show I've ever watched in my life, the
Linda Hamilton's one. Yeah, Yeah, Thelenda Hamilton's one. You gotta
watch it. I'll give you my CBS all access password. Um,

(01:41:36):
and then you can watch Picard. But yeah, I would,
I would. I would recommend watching an upisode of it
because it's so eighties. And also Ron Perlman is like
acting through the makeup, and I'm like, whoever the funk
is in? Did you not watch Ron Perlman? He transcended
the makeup, Jim Carrey transcends the Grinch makeup. Why can't

(01:41:57):
you transcend the makeup? Whoever you are? It's just strange.
So yeah, and then I think that the adaptation does
pass the Bactel test, but it's still, um, sucks, so bad,
so flawed. Metro movie. Also, The Thing Went does one
of my least favorite tropes on movies that are like

(01:42:20):
trying to be feminist but actually very much or not
um where they're like, the patriarchy is one guy. Look
at him, he's not nice. Like, it's just one guy
who's mean, and it has not there's no systemic anything.
It's just one guy. It's like, well, then kill that guy.
If we're that easy, we would just kill that guy.
To be perfectly honest, that guy would simply be killed.

(01:42:40):
But that's not how you can throw him into a ravine. Yeah. Yeah,
it's like, oh, Gaston and that guy are the only
misogynists in France, Well let's get rid of them. Like,
but that's just not how. But whatever, that's movie logic.
I love Luke Evans where I've Evans, Mr Guston. He's great.

(01:43:02):
He can sing, he can dance. After all, this this
is France, it's true. He's also in Fast and Furious six,
he was in ma He's in a lot of fun movies. Wow,
I still have to see ma. Um he got a Sea.
I'm looking through just to see if I have any

(01:43:23):
funnel things. Um do me? I mean, it's almost hardly
worth mentioning. But Bells mom is not lie. She's dead.
And then in the movie they give context for it,
and it's like why it doesn't have anything to do
with anything. It doesn't go anywhere. It's and again it's
just like copy paste adaptation brain of like, oh this

(01:43:46):
was the problem, let's just paste in an explanation for
it and people will be satisfied. It's like, no, you
need to build it up from the bank. Like I
don't even object to adding a storyline with a mother
as a backstory for help, but you can't just be like,
here it is, here's the worst song you've ever heard
in your wife, So uh, like you can't just paste

(01:44:09):
it and you need to like go back to like
build the story from the ground up with that as
an integral part of it. You can just add it
at the end or it doesn't work. So I kind
of like slightly object to like the whole like, oh,
don't change anything when you're updating to the live adaptation.
Of course, you know, change things, but you can't just

(01:44:30):
like add it as a little flourish and like a
wink and a nod at the end. It needs to
actually have like a meaningful like if you whatever, it's
just like basic writing, Like if you took it out
of the story and nothing changes, then you need to
go back and have it matter, like, yes, that's all,
that's all it is. Yeah. Yeah. The live action remake

(01:44:53):
does something kind of similar with clearly like Disney got
the note, has been getting the note, Hey, maybe not
have so many just only white people in your story.
So they do seem to make an attempt to include
some more diversity because there now are some black people
in the town, there are some black actors voicing some

(01:45:15):
of the enchanted objects, but it's the same kind of
thing where the characters are pretty secondary or tertiary. They
are not important, they're not among like the core cast.
So I think my main takeaway from watching the ninety
one and I feel like, even though the ninety one

(01:45:38):
movie in terms of like quality is vastly superior, you
kind of see like the same types of mistakes made
in both where they just kind of like take an
old story and then put like the Instagram filter lens
of the year it's coming out on top of it
without meaningfully building in those values into their rewrite of

(01:46:01):
the story. And I think probably is even worse because
it's like a rewrite of a rewrite and so it
just gets even more like chaos. But it's yeah, it's
just it's I don't know, there's such a dearth of
like good adaptations that like consider the context of the

(01:46:24):
time is being released into into it coming out, and
it's like either adapt an old as story with and
just do it and have it have you know, old
values that kind of speak to no one and just
do that, or you know, try try a little harder,
a little harder. Yeah, the reveal that like Lafu is

(01:46:46):
gay at the end because he dances for one second
with a man, it's not that's like but that's like
a perfect example of that, like the Instagram filter of
like updated right, because we did these two things with
like barely that's good enough, right, And it's like, no, Disney,
it's not. It isn't it distant And it's not like

(01:47:10):
there couldn't be a gay character meaningfully included in this story.
There's like it's a broad enough story that there's a
room to do that, like, but but they just didn't.
So they just I mean, and that's I mean, I
guess I'm just kind of like done expecting them at
Disney adaptation, especially at Disney adaptation of a Disney adaptation, right,

(01:47:32):
is going to do anything um super meaningful sometimes they do.
Most of the time they don't. I don't go and
expecting them that they will. That said, though, I would
say that this ninety one version is is a good
example of being a stepping stone movie almost that allows

(01:47:53):
us to track specifically like disney Fairytale animated movie progress,
where like Beauty and the Beast is more feminist than say,
snow White, which came out several decades before Beauty and
the Beast, but it is also like less feminist than
something like Moana, which came out years after ninety one

(01:48:17):
Beauty and the Beast, And even Moanna has things in
it now that it's like, you know, I don't know
if I would give Moanna five nipples if we covered
it now instead of four years ago. I feel like
it's with Dinny, It's always going to be a commerce
game in a way that it is, like, even though

(01:48:37):
it's sometimes frustrating to consume, I feel like it's an
interesting historical yardstick because Disney is never not going to
do what's going to make them like. They're always going
to do what's going to make them the most money,
and they're going to play to whatever they need to
to cast the widest that they can to get the
most people's money that they can, and so any movie

(01:48:57):
that comes out is going to reflect that, and so
they so become products of their time. And so it's like,
you know, snow White is reflecting nineteen thirty or ninety
seven values. You need the beasts reflecting values in the

(01:49:18):
most commercial sense. Moanna is going to reflect values and
the most commercial sense possible. They're never not going to
do what's not going to make them the most billions
of dollars. And then and it just sometimes it's going
to be done in a good faith, beautiful artistic way,
as I feel like it is in the movie at

(01:49:39):
many times, at many moments. And then you're just going
to get some real farts and boy, it's been two hours.
Let's d do do do do do um? What would

(01:50:02):
you rate this on our nipple scale, our scale of
zero to five nipples based on how the movie fares
looking at it from an intersectional feminist lens, um, I
don't know one or one and a half. Yeah, I
guess maybe maybe one. I mean I guess I would

(01:50:22):
say it's weird because it's like I still I'm trying
not to come in with a nostalgia opinion here. I
guess I'll go one and half. I think that the
issues with this movie are very much rooted in adaptation.
I like Bell. I'm rooting for Bell. I think she

(01:50:43):
is a very strongly motivated character whose agency is kind
of pulled back and back and back as the movie
goes on, and I want more for her. But it's like,
I don't know, I feel like this Bell in particular.
It's like people really clung to her for a reason,
and which is that she like expressed such a universal

(01:51:03):
sentiment of like wanting more in the world, And um,
I don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm I'm kind of
stuck on a one and a half. Where are you at?
I'm prepared to give it even a little higher. I
was going to come in with a two. Nice even
if you know, does the movie deserve it? I'm not
sure does the Beast deserve to be forgiven by bellserve

(01:51:28):
Bell's I just I want, I like I just I'm
always rooting about Also, I think it's worth mentioning that
Bell is kind of the first Disney princess who is
like definitively an adult, which is kind of nice. There's
that that was like a discussion that comes up in
Disney princess discourse as well. It's like, for the most part, um,

(01:51:49):
Disney princesses are teenagers. Um it is. I don't know
if it's ever explicitly stated in the movie, but I
guess canonically Bell is an adult woman, which I feel
it gives good. Yes, that is good, um to not
be releasing movies where teenagers are getting married off in

(01:52:11):
century that seems generally positive. So I appreciate that she
is an adult woman making decisions in an impossible world.
I just yeah, I guess I'll go one and a
half this time. But I just I love her. I
want more for her. I wish that this movie was
couldn't make up its mind of where it wants to be.

(01:52:32):
Like I like a lot of the I don't know,
it just it clashes so much the the beauty binary
rigidity comes. It doesn't hold up in certainly not in
a feature length twentieth century format. Um. It made me
miss Shrek. So take from that what you will. Um.

(01:52:54):
And I was like thinking about Shrek so much. Um,
And well, I mean we must ever forget Shreck, right,
It's well, we will never forget Shrek. We're always thinking
about where's the T shirt? Never forget Shrek. There's it's
got to be we have, you know, I'm saying, are
we have? You have to make it? You have to
make it. Oh my god, what I'm saying. I've done

(01:53:16):
enough Shrek. I've done enough Shrek art in this lifetime. Um.
But yeah, I I guess. I it's almost frustrating that
we have kind of a Rarety and Disney cannon where
we have a strong, lee motivated female character who is
intelligent and knows her values at the core of the story.
We're normally we kind of don't have that. We kind

(01:53:38):
of have like a young woman who has an idea
of what she wants, but like it's it's usually connected
to romantic love. That's not bellt goal. She has goals
beyond that. But then she gets the same endgame as
anyone else would. So I feel like she's just kind
of cheated out of the ending that you would want
for her. I love her, And this movie is so

(01:53:58):
beautiful and iconic in its way, you know, shout out
to absolute legend Howard Ashman Forever. Yeah, I guess And
and then but but it's like the dynamics of the
Bell Beast relationship are never gonna sit well with me.
I am all for a story about forgiveness. I think

(01:54:20):
that that, especially now, could be like a really impactful
narrative to present, But this just kind of isn't the
one where you feel like someone has really earned it
by the end of the story. Yes, so yeah, yeah, yeah,
one and a half. Oh go everything you said, And
that as much as I like Bell, I wish she

(01:54:43):
had been characterized a little bit differently, just in that
she could have been given an area of growth or
like potential growth that we I would have liked to
have seen, so that it's there's not so much of
a burden on her to just like except mediocrity all
around her and like not even me, like verbal abuse

(01:55:06):
and like the beast throwing furniture around all like she
just tolerates so much. And I like you said that
that dynamic even if he stops being abusive, like that's
not enough to warrant a romance, a like loving relationship, right,

(01:55:27):
there's even a way to like if they need that,
I don't know, like even if they need Belle and
the Beast to end up together at the end, there's
a way to say, like and now they're on a
path towards forgiveness, versus like and now I am married
to you, and we are married today and I love
you forever. Like there's a there if they're going with

(01:55:47):
these nineties values, maybe you know, ended by having it
seemed like and things might actually work out here. I
guess we'll see she's gonna because I feel like it's
it's a satisfying enough arc to have her give him
a second chance. Period. He hasn't even really earned a
second chance, much less eternal love, you know, but it's
like a second chance would at least be a more

(01:56:09):
palatable end game than right, especially like it's the whole
you know, the fairy tale. Like it's like, well, what
do you expect. It's a fairy tale. This is how
fairy tales are you you fall in love and you
live happily ever after, and you don't have to see
that they're compatible. They're just they're near each other, so
they're in love. But it's like, well, yeah, but when
you're adapting a fairy tale in the late twentieth century

(01:56:32):
and then again in the early twenty one century, like
our cultural values have progressed a little bit beyond you know, uh,
fairy tale values. So it can't have it. You just
can't have it always. But they're never going to stop.
But again, it's like I guess they can't because they
have a billion dollars show that they showed us in

(01:56:54):
another I bet in another like thirty years, they're going
to re adapt it, and it's just gonna be a
cycle of shitty adaptation after shifty adaptation. I do love
this movie, Um, I know I love it, So I
like the nine one one in spite of all the
flaws we've been talking about for two hours, is a
perfect movie. So I don't make the rules. Just is

(01:57:18):
what it is. Yeah, I'll stick with my too, even
though I think I'm being a little too generous. Two nips,
I love it. I'm giving them. I'm giving them to
I'm giving one to Bell. I'm giving want half a
nip to one of those hungry wolves. So we're trying
to just fed those wolves and feed that wolf. Happen nipple.

(01:57:38):
I'm gonna give both of my nipples to Stanley Tucci
in the live action remake. I love it. There you go, Stanley,
There you go. Family, hope you're happy. Happy now, Stanley,
all right, well there we there you go. So we
did it. We've reckoned with our past and fully a

(01:58:00):
more nuanced conversation than we had. You'll never know. So yeah,
welcome to We have a bunch of exciting episodes planned
and thanks for being here. You can always follow us
on line. You can follow us at batl Cast on
Twitter or Instagram. Follow your heart can also uh. You

(01:58:21):
can also sign up for our Patreon aka Matreon, where
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And you can check out our merch store at t
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there is a noticeable absence of Shrek merch, but Wow

(01:58:44):
literally bullied into making Shrek merch. You're gonna regret. You're
gonna rue the day that I post my Shrek lingerie
to our Instagram without warning. I very talk. I won't
the day I will. You will rule the day. I
love it? Um anyway, Yeah, you can find us there,

(01:59:07):
and you know what, give us a little rate and
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do do do do do Do Do Do Do Do Do

(01:59:29):
do do do do by do by bye,