Beyond the Lights with Maya Williams

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On The Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph
and bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Caitlin, you've got second place in the singing contest.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, you're happy about it.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Oh yay, Now smash your trophy. You're not a champion,
no of us. Right, that's that's the part I'm not
happy about Mini Driver as bully mother. You hate to
see it. I think that was a strong intro. It
did go as it tends to do. It went a
little Australian at the end, but that's that's okay. Where

(00:50):
this is a safe place. Because one guy told Caitlyn
they had a good Australian accent, and I chose to
also take that as applying to me.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
So yeah, of course, of course we are a unit.
We are one.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
We are a unit. Look at that unit, and that unit.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Is called the Bechdel Cast. And I'm Caitlin Dorante and.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm Jamie Loftus the other half of the unit. And yes,
this is our podcast where we take a look at
your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for a discussion.
But wait a second, Caitlin, what's the Bechdel test?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
All?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Is it a Minnie driver yelling at her daughter to
smash a trophy? Because spoiler alert, yes it is.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
It does pass. Yeah. So the Bechdel test commonly known
as the Bechdel Wallace test because Alison Bechdel created it
in collaboration with her friend Liz Wallace. It first appeared
in Alison Bechdel's comic Dix to Watch out For. And
it's a medium metric that has many versions. The one

(01:59):
that we use is this, do two characters of a
marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?
Is that conversation about something other than a man and
a little caveat that we add is is the conversation
narratively important in some way or is it just throw
away dialogue? Because ideally it's a nice, juicy conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's got to have the juice. Yeah, And today we
are covering a director we've covered many many and by
many I think I mean too possibly three.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, love and basketball.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes, and the woman King, the woman King right, So
this is three, this is three. Little does this director
know that she's about to get her Bechdel cast Letterman jacket,
which is a third appearance, Honor. We are covering Beyond
the Lights today, a twenty fourteen movie directed by Gina

(02:57):
Prince Bythwood, and we have a returning guest. It's true.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
They are a religious, black, multiracial, non binary suicide survivor
who is currently the seventh Poet Laureate of Portland, Maine.
I said, mained, mained, that's not the name of the state.
Air debut poetry collection, Judas and Suicide, was selected as
a finalist for the New England Book Award. They also

(03:24):
have a second poetry collection, Refused a second Date. They
recently published essays in venues such as LGBTQ, Nation, Stylist,
and Full Stop, as well as interviews in Black Girl Nerds.
Maya was one of three artists of color selected to
represent Maine in the Kennedy Center's Arts Across America series

(03:46):
in twenty twenty, and they were also selected as one
of the Advocates Champions of Pride in twenty twenty two.
You can follow her at Maya williamspoet dot com. It's
Maya Williams.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Say, well back, welcome back.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
I'm sorry it's not dear Evan Hanson. But also I'm
not sorry that.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Honestly, I think that there's a few people out there
breathing a sigh of relief that they have escaped the
clutches of Evan Hanson this time, just this time, Maya
will be back and you will experience the majesty of
Evan Hanson. God, I really wish we could all watch
that movie together.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
I've never seen it, so I don't even know what
people are talking about when they talk about it, or like,
obviously know what the I know it's a movie, but
I don't know, brave why people talk about it.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
There's so many ways to watch that movie. There's just okay,
I every watch a poem, but no, today we're talking
about Beyond the Lights. Maya, what is your history and
connection with this movie with the filmmaker you know Dealers twice.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, I've seen I've seen this movie for the first
time my freshman year of college, and I was obsessed
with it at the time because I was like, oh
my god, by racial representation, oh my god, mental help.
And then and then come to adulthood of like, oh

(05:22):
I don't like how she's in love with the cop. Yeah,
but we'll get into that, and and yeah, it's very
familiar with this director's work. I got to cover the
Secret life of Bees on the on the Black Girl
Film podcast and that was a real joy and a
real treat. Said, movies really good, has its fails like
any other movie, but yeah, enjoyed that. And yeah, I

(05:45):
watched this movie twice in preparation for this, and I
couldn't find a commentary to like delve into. So I
just spent a lot of my time just reading interviews
and watching like featurette interviews. So so no commentary tidbits
from me today. But it'll still be your name.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
I really that's like of the many things that we've
lost in the like lack of physical media, and I
feel like I have to keep saying, like I need
to issue a formal apology to all of my friends
and lovers who I roasted for having too many DVDs
at their house, including Caitlin, because you were all right,

(06:23):
you were all right. I was wrong.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
I accept your apologize.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
I'm really big for him. But I feel like one
of the many things we've lost is the art of
the commentary track. They just don't happen. It's embarrassing. I mean,
we do get you know, we've gained letterboxed interviews, we've
gained round tables, but we've lost the commentary. I just
feel like we got to bring it back.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
What was the Ben Affleck commentary that was hilarious? Was
it for Armageddon?

Speaker 2 (06:53):
It was for I think it was for Armageddon, Yeah,
where he was just and then there's also a really
good one yeah, where he's just like roasting specifically from
a science perspective, which is just like, I don't know.
Sometimes I'm reminded that, like Ben Affleck is like a
pretty smart person, and it kind of like rattles. It

(07:14):
rattles me every time I re learned that where sometimes
you early you hear him speaking fluent Spanish, You're like, wow,
ben Affleck is objectively smarter than me. That's wild. I mean,
this isn't passing the Bectel test whatsoever. No, but do
you remember when he had that cardboard cutout of Anna
to Armis on his lawn when they were dating. Oh

(07:36):
my god, I feel like that passed out of the
cultural memory way too fast. First of all, that they
did date, it was like a pandemic relationship. Yeah, and
that like I guess that his kids liked her, which
is great, but that like led to for some reason,
there was a time during lockdown where there was a

(07:57):
cardboard cutout of Anna to Armis on the lawn that
the kids were like playing with.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
That's uch weird.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
I feel like I'm remembering that basically correctly.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
No, I believe you.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Okay, Well, anyway, what's your history with Beyond the Lives, Caitlin?

Speaker 3 (08:15):
I had not seen it before, so this was my
first watch. And yeah, that's kind of it. I think
there's some interesting things about it that I enjoyed, and
then there's other things that I didn't enjoy so much,
and we'll dive into that further. Yeah, but yeah, short

(08:37):
history with it. What about you, Jamie?

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I also had not This movie was not on
my radar, which is I thought was kind of bizarre
because I'm like a fan of Gina Prince Bythwood. I
just I don't know, I don't know if like, I'm
sure I heard about it when it came out, but
this movie just missed me. I'm not really sure what happened.
It was successful and it was well reviewed, so I

(09:00):
guess I don't know. Twenty fourteen I was. I guess
I was like working at a bakery. I don't know,
I was at a bakery. It missed me.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Well, it was well reviewed, but it only made like
fourteen million at the box office, so it's not as
though a lot of people went and saw this and
that this was like a super popular movie.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
But it's like, I guess. All I would say was
like it's it wasn't like a flop by any means,
but yeah, I this one missed missed me. I had
a fun time, based on the very vague title, figuring
out what genre was which actually does speak to what
a prolific and what's the word I'm looking for? Like,

(09:39):
when you hear that Gina Prince Bithwood has directed a movie,
you know you're probably gonna like it. But she directs
across so many genres that I was like, I don't
really know what to expect from this, and it surprised me.
I'm excited to talk about it because I think that
there's a lot of stuff about it that stands out
in a way that I really liked. There the copaganda

(10:02):
kind of took me by surprise. Yeah, and like how
specific the propaganda got. We were like, you know how
the LAPD is really good at handling domestic violence situations.
And you're like, hold on, no, wait a second. But
there's a lot of things to like about this movie.
And also I just feel like, I don't know, like
the twenty fourteen noess of this movie because of like

(10:24):
what a pop culture focus movie it is was fun.
You were like, for some reason, for some reason, Don
Lemon participates in the climax of this movie. Don Lemon
is at the peak of the movie. I was like
live texting the movie to someone else. I was like,
you're never gonna believe who makes a cameo at the

(10:45):
emotional climax of the movie. It is Don Lemon. There's
a lot of people in this movie who have since
been disgraced. It just was very twenty fourteen in a
lot of ways. Don Lemon's at the climax of it.
I just like Don Lemon spoke at by college graduation.
It just really taking me back to like college era. Yeah,
my college graduation. The two people who spoke were Don

(11:08):
Lemon and Jay Leno deeply cursed event. But I would
love to know what those two people talked about backstage. Anyways,
this movie is weird. I think this movie is weird.
I didn't love it, but I think that there's a
lot to like about it and I'm excited to talk
about it.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Well, shall we do that?

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Let's shall do that.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come
back for the recap.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
And we're back.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Okay. So before the recap, I will place a content
warning for suicide, sexual assault, and domestic violence. So the
story opens in South London in nineteen ninety eight. We
meet Nony Jean. She's mixed. She is black and white,

(12:09):
and her white mom, Macy, played by Mini Driver.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Jump Scare, did not see Mini Driver coming.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
No.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
She takes Noni to a black owned hair salon because
Noni is performing in a talent contest the following day
and Macy doesn't know how to style black hair, while.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
A radio recording about Princess Diana plays in the back.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, God, I love it. There should be because in
general this movie is like not. I just I think
there should be like a good supercut of like clunky
historical signifier moments, because that's when where you're like, oh,
is it nineteen ninety seven? I feel like there's so
many movies that they're also like randomly apropos of nothing.

(12:54):
They're like, are you afraid of Y two K? Just
to let you know, like what it is anyways.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, yep, okay. So then we see Noni at the
talent contest. She does an amazing job singing Blackbird by
Nina Simone and she gets first runner up, but her
mom is furious that the judges picked another girl as
the winner.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Which, yeah, while this scene that Minnie driver through was
embarrassing and unfair giving it to I think her name
is Little Tammy. She was robbed.

Speaker 4 (13:27):
She was robbed, Yeah, oh yeah, robbed by a bunch
of white girls in like very shiny clothes, ye and like,
which of course becomes very telling as to the trajectory
for Noni, but like, yeah, we can get into that
more later, but right.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
The point is though, that Macie puts a lot of
pressure on Noni to be a winner, to be the best.
We cut to Noni as an adult. She's played by
google Batha Rah. She is now a hip hop artist,
like a breakout, like on the cusp of being like
an enormous record breaking star. We see a very horny

(14:02):
music video.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Of hers, which also is like, so I was like, uh,
twenty fourteen.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Gary, she wins her first Billboard Award for a song
she performed with her boyfriend Kid Culprit. And also there's
a one hundred percent chance I will accidentally call him
kid Cutty. It's just gonna happen there.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Well. And also it's like it's also MGK, which is
also another jump scare that you're just like, okay, MIDI driver.
I can accept that I like Manny, but then MGK
and it's like twenty fourteen MGK, and he's clearly trying
to like soft launch a movie career. It's just like,
what is happening? Wow.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Here's my little anecdote about that is that when I
saw him in this movie, I did not recognize him
because I don't know what Machine Gun Kelly looks like
or who that even really is. I recognize the name,
but then when I was like looking through the credits
on IMDb, I was like, wait, what machine Gun Kelly?
I know that name? Who is that person? And then

(15:08):
I realized he plays Kid culprit, and I'm.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Like, oh, so he's outside of like making a lot
of bad music. He is most I think most famous
for being in a really kind of intense public relationship
with Megan Fox. Oh Gotsie. My brush with Machine Gun
Kelly was when I was working at a haunted hay
Ride and he and Megan Fox took like a huge

(15:33):
like like not a limo but like a big like
uber triple, like a really nice car to the hay
Ride and paid like three hundred dollars to get the
VIP experience. Oh gosh, I was like doing my little
scary thing. And then uh and then a tractor, like
a hay ride tractor full of only Megan Fox and

(15:53):
Machine Gun Kelly past and they didn't get scared because
it wasn't scary.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
Whoa, I guess you should have done a better job, Jamie.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
It was really humbling, and seeing Machine Gun Kelly kind
of brings me to a dark place.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Sorry. Well, anyway, he's in the movie playing Kid Cutty
or something. Okay, So Noni's first album is dropping in
a few weeks, and again she's like on the precipice
of like extreme she's already famous, but She's like about
to be a huge, huge star. Her mom, Macy is
there and she's still very, very intense, and she is

(16:29):
now Nony's manager. That night, Nony goes into her hotel
room in Beverly Hills. She's sitting on the railing of
a balcony and she attempts suicide, but a cop named
Officer cas Nicol played by Nate Parker saves her and

(16:53):
they have this moment where they look at each other meaningfully.
And then in the aftermath of this suicide attempt, more
cops have shown up, including Kaz's dad, who is the
police captain played by Danny Glover.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
I'm scared Danny Glover of.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Saw One fame, that.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Is, as we're always saying, his most iconic roles, most
famous for being like, who is Jig Saw?

Speaker 4 (17:27):
People?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
People are just like Danny Glover, oh of sol Saw One.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
He doesn't make it to Saw It too, unfortunately. I
would love if they. I mean, there's been ten at
this point, bring him back for eleven. Right, the cannon's
a mess. You like, you won't be disturbing anything, and
and you know Jigsaw would love to see him.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Oh, tell me about it.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, anyways, Danny Glover's in this movie.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yes, and he's telling his son, Officer Kaz, to lie
out what happened.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Who's and also Kaz I'm not mistaken in saying that
Kaz says it's short for Kazam.

Speaker 4 (18:06):
That's correct. Yeah, I was.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Looking through the letterbox. Also follow me on letterbox. I
just don't account it's Jamie alert. But I was looking
through letterbox to see if anyone makes note of the
fact that our romantic lead is named Kazam, which is
a joke that only appears once. I think that, like
it comes back one more time where she's like, wow, Kazam,

(18:31):
you sure know how to kiss, and it was like,
his name's Kazam.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
His name is Kazam. He says that he was named
that because his parents thought it sounded African, and then
we just breeze past the rest of all of that, right.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
And then you're like, okay, well, he is too old
to be named after the genie that Shack played, So
I guess that that is out right, but it would
be wild in my head, Cannon, he was named after
Shack Gemie. Oh wow, remember that?

Speaker 3 (19:04):
And you know what, it's high time we cover that movie.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Honestly kind of shocking that we have it COVID Kazam.
I really I cannot tell you a thing that happened
in that movie, but I know that I was really
into it.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
I saw it at a drive in movie theater, and
I also couldn't tell you a single thing.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
But definitely Shaq's name is Kazam in that movie. Yeah,
so there are two movie characters named Kazam.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
But isn't there that Mandela effect thing where people are like,
wasn't his character's name Shazam?

Speaker 4 (19:37):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Is that? Oh my gosh, is that?

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I think?

Speaker 1 (19:40):
So?

Speaker 3 (19:40):
Does that sound familiar?

Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'm not familiar with that.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Hang on, I have to look this up. This is important.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
This is a good episode already, we're like an ad
armist cardboard cutout Kazam.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Although, oh no, wait, it's not Shack, it's sin Sinbad. Wait,
hang on, no, it's.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
It's definitely Shack. It's definitely sha is Sinbad Shazam and
Shaq is cousin. Maybe Wait what, No, Shazam is.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
That superhero movie from DC? Oh what am I thinking?
There's I swear to goodness, there's some I believe Pandela
effect thing here.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
I believe something about like Mandela Effect Sinbad rings a
vague bell.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Right, okay, okay, anyway, let's move along. Okay. So Officer
Danny Glover is telling has I.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Just found a Reddit post from seven years ago on
our slash Mandela Effect titled the Sinbad Genie Movie. So
you are okayat let's see. Okay. Even the people involved,
like Sinbad himself, claim there is no such thing, but
everyone I talk to remembers it in some fashion if
they're old enough to hit the demographic. So this is

(20:58):
someone who is convinced there is a sin genie movie.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
I also, okay, I knew it. There's okay, we all
remember if if we're old enough.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, I'm gonna text it to you. I'm gonna just
so we can link it in the description. This feels relevant,
Yeah it does, all right, all right, anyway, sorry the movie, yes,
it's Gina fritz Bythewood set herself up for this by
naming her romantic lead Kazam. She did. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
So Officer Danny Glover is telling kaz to lie about
what happened that NONI had too much to drink and
she slipped on accident in order to kind of like
protect her image Titanic vibes big time. Okay, and I
slipped and I would have gone overboard if if.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Jester kazam Here hadn't saved me and almost went over himself.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Okay, the Titanic parallels in this movie, and I don't okay,
I don't want to make light of suicide or suicidal ideation,
but specific around this plot point, there are so many
Titanic parallels that I will insist on saying, yes, okay, okay, anyway, okay.
So kaz is like, no, I don't want to lie

(22:12):
about this, like she should be in the hospital, she
needs help, but he is pressured to go ahead with
this lie at a press conference, and so now he's
very disappointed in NONI and like this situation, this fabrication,
and despite what was claimed at this press conference, the media,

(22:33):
the fans, everyone is still speculating that it was a
suicide attempt and because of the sex symbol image that
the music industry has cultivated for a suicide attempt quote
unquote tarnishes that image. So the record label wants to

(22:54):
push her album release back, but Macy negotiates with the
label to keep it as is, so now there's even
more pressure on Noni to get people to forget about
this story that's still circulating around the news. Meanwhile, kaz
is receiving a lot of attention since he was the
person who saved Noni, and he has public exposure now

(23:18):
for speaking at that press conference, and he is being
encouraged to leverage this and use it to elevate himself
as a political candidate because he has aspirations as a politician.
He then goes to pay a visit to Noni to
apologize for how he behaved after the press conference, and

(23:39):
they're vibing again, and she's like, let's get out of here.
So they run away from her mom and all the
popparazzi and they go to get some food and they
watch some planes take off at Lax, you know, really
fun activity. I think we can all agree.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
It was something that made me laugh because there I
mean this and I say this with love. There's a
lot of moments that are very corny. One of these
moments is when they're in the car an officer Kazam
is like, you're cold. You should wear my jacket, and
I was like, or turn the heat on in the car.

(24:16):
The fuck are you talking about it? She was like,
And if I was yeah, if I was notny, I'd
be like, uh no, I don't need your crusty jacket.
Can you play your heat? Gross?

Speaker 3 (24:31):
I wonder because throughout the movie he's like, well, we'll
get there, but he's very judgy about different things. Yes,
And I wonder if it was him kind of implying
you're showing too much skin in that revealing outfit, like
let me cover you up.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
It's so like, I don't know, this is another movie
that it's wild. It's almost ten years old, and you
can like feel in a good way. How like the
way that characters are written, even in this director's movie
sp it has like significantly evolved for sure.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
In any case, they're at the airport and they're vibing
until she finds a business card of a tabloid journalist
who was offering kas money for the exclusive story on
what really happened that night at the balcony, and so
Noni assumes his intentions aren't great. He doesn't like what

(25:26):
she's implying, so now things are pretty tense between them,
and he drops her off at the house she recently
bought in Beverly Hills question Mark and he's like, okay, bye,
and she's like, actually, wait, I do trust you, and
let's kiss. So they do and then he leaves and
goes home, and his dad, Danny Glover, is like, be careful.

(25:47):
You're trying to be a politician, but she's not first
lady material.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yeah. Like, and so as a professional cop, like you're
more so concerned for your son's political image that the
fact that your son, a fellow police officer, is dating
someone who he's saved, Like, that's that what It's really bizarre?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, I mean, and I had to keep challenging. I'm like,
is am I like bringing twenty twenty four brain to
the way that the media cycles work? Or is it
like written a little behind the time it came out?
And I'm not totally sure because yeah, I'm like, in
my mind, if that happens, any establishment person, which his
dad is, would be like, great, go with this. Like

(26:35):
you know, I don't know, people love when popstars date
cops unless they're young. It would like, do you remember
when Lana del Rey dated a cop that didn't go
very well? She really lost she really lost some people
on that one. But it's like that maybe it was
like we weren't at that point in discourse yet where
your young fans, if they found out your dating a cop,
would be like, oh not really. Into this era.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
Fourteen, the cops were perceived more favorably by like the
general public.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
Which is why I have so many questions about the
ethical dilemma around around that, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
It seems like a wind win. I don't know. This
MOVIEE is like attempting to say things about pr relationships
that I think is interesting, but I was a little
confused on like where.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
It landed right anyway, So Danny Glover is like, you
shouldn't be hanging out with her, it's bad for your career,
but NONI and Kaz keep seeing each other anyway. There's
a montage where she's doing different like you know, learning
dance choreography and like doing a make a Wish thing
and photo shoots and he's there every step of the way.

(27:42):
But like we foreshadowed, he's being like pretty judgy about
quite a bit of it in a way that whatever,
we'll get there. But he's like, wow, the lyrics to
your songs also are like buh, and she's like, yeah,
I wish I could write songs with more meaning full lyrics,
and he's like, okay, do it, and she's like, look

(28:03):
at my box full of basically like just a little
handwritten notes of lyrics that have come to her, which
honestly sharing that with anyone else brave. I would not.
That's just me. That would be like someone like looking
through my joke notebook. God, wouldn't wouldn't be me, wouldn't
be sharing that.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah, I gotta share a clean dressed yeah something if
someone's interested.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
In seriously that maybe a little sacks hey. I was
like wow, Like Nodi is really like needing connection with
someone so much that she'll like take a risk and
show something that vulnerable with like objectively. At this point
in the movie, some guy.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Right, And then also Kaz is like what about Kid
Culprit And she's like, yeah, he's kind of my boyfriend
and he's like, okay, what about us. So then Nony
breaks up with kid Culprit and he seems very chill
about it, and they still have a working relationship.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
He does say a phrase you use the press, don't
let the press use you, right, Yeah, so that's for
like a later see that at the same time, like yeah,
the later scene. Still it confuses me, and that it
doesn't confuse me, But we'll, I know, we keep saying
we'll get to that. It's there's so much, like.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
So there's so much.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah, yeah, anyway, that will kind of come to a
head in a moment. But first, Noni does a sexy
little surprise for kaz by blindfolding him and taking him
on a private jet because he's never been on a
plane before.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I was weirdly like not comfortable with her behavior. Let
me off, let me off the plate, and she's like no, no, babe.
I'm like, yes, babe, and then she like is.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
Ignoring all of his like very obvious signals that he's
very uncomfortable and then has sex with him.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, it's a consent issue, and it's a like basic
human safety issue.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
I was really grossed up by that.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
I can't believe I'm defending Officer Kazam in this, but like,
let him off the plane, absolutely, let him off the plane.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah sure, Yeah. And then Nannie does a live performance backstage,
though her mom Macy is like, hey, kaz you're not
good for my daughter because every time people see you together,
they see her on that balcony you know who's better
for her is Kid Cuddy or whatever?

Speaker 4 (30:31):
Kid Culprit.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
I know that's how you know Minnie Driver is a
villain where she's like, you know, who'd be a great
boyfriend for you? Machine Gun Kelly. You're like, no good
parent would choose that for their child. Right.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
Meanwhile, though, on stage at this performance, there's this situation
where the choreography was supposed to be that she was
gonna remove her jacket during the performance, she decides to
keep it on. Kid Culprit is then like trying to
like forcibly rem He's also becoming very violent and like
rapee on stage, and then he takes the mic and

(31:07):
he's just like, you know, hey, everyone, she didn't break
up with me. I broke up with her, and that's
why she tried to jump off the balcony. It's really disgusting.
And then a fight breaks out between Kaz and Kid Culprit.
So Danny Glover is disappointed in Kaz for jeopardizing his
political career.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
Sounding like every black dad in the world, So you
a thug now.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
And then Macy's also disappointed in Nony for reasons I'm
not even sure what is happening.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
There, but she calls her a bloody cliche and it
sort of goes back to like what she said earlier
about like, well, listen, Britney Spears and Kanye West still
had these stunts that they came out with albums like
what makes Nony any different?

Speaker 2 (31:53):
M Yeah right.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Anyway, all this is getting to Nony and she has
a breakdown. Kaz comforts her and then he takes her
on this like relaxing getaway to Mexico.

Speaker 4 (32:05):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Then we get a huge like it's like a montage.
It is like a five minute montage of them eating
one food, getting one kiss. You're just like, yeah, Vibe Vibe,
it's a ViBe's montage. They're on the beach.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
You might even say, she's going beyond the lights. Wow,
all of those flashing paparazzi photos, all the lights, camera.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Action, all the lights, camera Jackson remember him?

Speaker 3 (32:39):
No, but we feel it.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
We have to keep going.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
The movie was originally titled Blackbird, and then it got
changed to Beyond the Lights.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, yes, right, Which I wonder what that what the
reasoning was on that, because I think Blackbird makes way
worse since it feels like more a tune to what
the clear like to what the movie is. And also
she sings this song fifty times beyond the lights. They
don't say that once in the movie. Therefore, how could

(33:10):
it be the title?

Speaker 3 (33:10):
How could it be the title? Okay, So they're doing
all this stuff, and then there's a scene where they
sing karaoke and this is one of the times that
Noni sings Blackbird, just like she did when she was
a kid at the talent contest. But someone has recorded
her singing this and they've posted it on the internet.
So Macy figures out where Nonie is, as does the paparazzi,

(33:34):
so they all kind of like crash her quiet get away,
and Noni and her mom seem to have a tender
moment for once, and then Macy's like, okay, back to
the grind, and Noni's like, okay, let's go. But Kaz
is like, no, things are just gonna go back to
the way they were, which was like very toxic for you.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
He also sounds really judgy, Yeah, yeah, shaming her.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
He's judging her, and he's also like, I know what's
best for you, and I'm like, surely the plot won't
enforce this reality, but.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
What it does, so yeah, they like argue, and then
he breaks up with her. So Noni and Kaz returned
to La but separately, and Noni with this video of
her singing Blackbird, fans are seeing this new side of her.
So she wants to record a new song for the

(34:28):
upcoming album, something that she writes because she's like, I
have something to say and people seem to want to
hear it, and it seems like her mom advocates for
her in a meeting with the label, but it turns
out that Macy was full of shit. So Noni confronts
Macy about how she controlled every aspect of Nonie's life

(34:50):
and career and how she turned her into this like
sexy product to be sold and consumed, and then Noni
fires Macy as her manager.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Oh it is like yeah, the also like twenty fourteen,
I feel like it was a high for like Mamager representation.
We had like the Kardashians approaching their peak. I was like, wow,
interesting putting a Mamager character. Also very mid twenty ten's
decision firing the Mamager awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Meanwhile, Kaz is gearing up to announce his candidacy, as
I think he's going to be running for city council
person in La cool.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
That's what we need, another cop on city council.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, seriously. Nony approaches him to try to make up,
but he brushes her off, saying that what they had
started on a lie, so it was never going to work.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And again it's just like oh right. A fundamental part
of Officer Kazam is that he values the truth.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
I just I don't know, because politicians are famously obsessed
with telling the truth.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
The LAPD really gets away with a lot in this movie,
The famously honest laped right.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Okay, So then Noni goes on TV. Her label wants
her to dispel the myth that she attempted suicide once
and for all, but instead she tells the truth. She
says that she was attempting suicide and she realized that
she had to stop trying to be someone who she
wasn't and now she's living her authentic life.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
This is where that Don Lemons becomes integral to the plot,
right right.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Kaz sees this interview and he's proud that she finally
is telling the truth. Then Noni does a concert in
the UK where she performs a song that she wrote,
which pays homage to Nina Simone's Blackbird, and then Kaz
shows up and he's like, hey, I love you, by

(37:02):
the way, and she's like, cool, I love you too,
and that's how the movie ends. So let's take a
quick break and we will come back to discuss.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
And we're back, okay. Yeah, I mean, is there anywhere
that jumps out to you for a starting point here?
Oh my god, no pressure.

Speaker 4 (37:36):
No, like, it's like so much like. Yeah, And I
do feel like we need to talk specifically about Nathan
Parker because because his personal life is is relevant to
the movie.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
So yeah, Nate Parker, if you don't remember, this was
a huge point of discussion, I believe five ish years
ago now, was a prominent actor and filmmaker who had
assaulted and raped a student while in college in the

(38:12):
late nineties early two thousands, and was found guilty in
the early two thousands of having done this. As we
see very often, this resulted in a small settlement for
the survivor and a slap on the wrist for Nate Parker. Essentially,
he moved schools and went on to obviously thrive significantly.

(38:37):
This story became I think it became a huge cultural
talking point in twenty nineteen, although the information was always available,
but it became a cultural talking point post me too,
essentially after he had been a working filmmaker for some time,
and it also came out. I don't remember the exact
timeline of this, but it was found out when it

(38:59):
became a discussion point that the person he had raped
had taken their own life several.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
Years before, in twenty twelve.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, in twenty yeah, and like right, maybe maybe I'm
getting the timeline wrong, and this was coming, this was
happening when his birth of the twenty.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
Became Yeah, okay, now twenty sixteen, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Okay, So it's actually a little bit ahead of the
me too movement. Wow, I can't believe it was that
long ago, God time, but yes, that that the woman
he dessaulted had taken her own life back in twenty twelve.
This did absolutely impact his career, but I feel like
it has sort of fallen out of the conversation to

(39:40):
the point where, honestly, when I it took me a
second tilt for my brain to catch up. I was like, oh,
that's Nate Parker, and oh oh oh, like there and
particularly with the subject matter of this movie. His presence
is like really difficult to stomach in context that he

(40:01):
is the one who is I mean, I take issue
with the concept of like his being the rescuer in
the first place, but given the actor and his history,
like it's just.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's gross, horrifying. And I mean the relationship between his
character and Noni plays out in a way that I
find very unsettling as well. I mean, like we mentioned,
there are some Titanic parallels. The beginning of their relationship

(40:36):
feels very like Jack and Rose coded. Where So, for example,
Noni and Rose, they start off the movie in a
relationship with a shitty, rich white guy. Both women feel
intense pressure from society and from their mothers to stay

(40:59):
with this guy. Both women attempt suicide. Then, in both cases,
a man who comes from more humble beginnings intervenes in
her suicide attempt and saves her. There's encouragement in both
stories to lie that this was a suicide attempt. The

(41:21):
man who intervened will go on to become the woman's
new boyfriend, and he will help the woman escape that
world that she felt trapped in and break free from
all the pressure and live a new, more authentic life.
So very, very just titanic these stuff happening here, even

(41:44):
some of the dialogue where Rose says at one point,
I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a
crowded room screaming at the top of my lungs and
no one even looks up and none he says, I
feel like I'm suffocating in the middle of the street
and no one can see me dying.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
And you're like, it's an updated yes, But I just
wanted to take it back for a second because I'm
glad that you brought up Nate Parker's criminal history and
history of assaulting women. I guess what, going into this
viewing and knowing that, how does that inform how the

(42:21):
subject matter is treated in the movie? Does it make
a difference for you. I'm just curious on your take
on that.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Yeah, it's like Gudo. Prince Midwood has always like like
in like previous interviews and like previous commentary and stuff,
for like The Secret Life of Bees, Like she'd always
talk about like how he was such a nice guy
and like he was very respectful of like the love
interest he was paired with in her films. But it's
just very disappointing because like these consensual interactions does not

(42:49):
erase the huge, huge amount of lack of consent in
two thousand and one when he was at Penn State.
And it's also quite heartbreaking because like he gets to
make movies again, and you have these actors and filmmakers
going like, oh, he's he's learned his lesson, like he's
going through a lot of learning and da da da,
and it's just so sad and it's so weird seeing

(43:11):
like the concert scene where kid culprit is is assaulting
Nony and then Nate Parker's character is framed as the
hero in that situation and it's very unsettling to watch.
And and also it also doesn't help that like another way,
like kid Culprit's character is sort of foreshadowing like in
the in like the Sexy music video in the beginning,

(43:33):
he's he's like strangling Nony a little bit, And I
just have so many questions around, like how were you
directed in this? And also like Judah Prince Bithewood, like
I have not agreed with how she likes to place
her actors in situations without their permission in order to
get them in the role like she she plays Jennifer

(43:53):
Hudson in a store where white men are calling her
the Edward in order to prepare her for the Secret
Life of Bees and then for Beyond the Lights. She
placed Googa Babathra in Nate Parker in this situation where
paparazzi show up and he has to take care of
her unexpectedly.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
And also like, I don't know, like, given Nate Parker's history,
I'm like, don't leave him alone with cugoo, right, But yeah,
I saw that referenced in a Vulture interview that she
did around the release of this movie, and it was like,
I honestly like, I was surprised. I wonder if she
still does stuff like that. I guess I don't know
how you would do that for the woman King, But

(44:33):
it felt almost like Blair Witch Project production approaches, where
it's like, I'm just gonna leave you in the woods.
Won't that be fun? Yeah? I mean, thank you for
your insight on that. And I'm realizing that the reason
that I thought this had taken place in twenty nineteen
is because that's the last time he directed a movie. Yep,
so he has since in fact directed movies since this

(44:55):
became a publicly known story and he's currently filming another one.
So if you you know, here's your daily reminder that
cancelation isn't a thing, right, Yeah, but I thought it was.
I don't know. I as far as the way suicidality
and mental health is treated in this movie, it was

(45:17):
a little it was like all over the place for
me where I think that, like, this movie does have
something to say about how I mean, it felt like
in line with a lot of pop stars stories of
how extremely constrictive and controlled Nonie's life is, and how

(45:38):
that pressure and being forced in all these directions she
doesn't want to go in, it has an extreme adverse
effect on her mental health to the point where she's
driven to this place. I guess I wish that the
it's a romance movie, so this was never gonna happen.
I just wish it had spent a little more time
analyzing that. It felt like the way that that ends

(45:58):
up being analyzed asn't a.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
Pretty surfacy kind of way that allows a lot of
the abusive people kind of off the hook a little bit.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
I was surprised. I was. I think that if this
movie was made today, NONI would more likely cut her
mom out of her life and not just out of
her business. I felt like Macie maybe got off a
little easy, but that's that's just my opinion.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
I guess I got the impression that she did cut
her out of her life because like she's not.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Or I guess what I've more referred to as like
how the neighbor or hairstylist that she grew up near
was sort of encouraging her, like your mom loves you,
she'd love to see you sometime. Like it just felt
like that door was not completely closed. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
My big concern about it is something we were starting
to touch on, which is to me an implication that
she is almost cured of her suicidal ideation because of
the romance of a man. I also thought, and you know,
you might feel different ways about this, but we never

(47:07):
see her getting or seeking actual medical help or like
getting help from mental health professionals.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
She only mentioned but she says that she says this,
but I'm getting help. You're like, don't know if that's
useful to know what that means?

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Right, Like, what does that mean? Is that even true?
And it would have been so helpful because you know,
there's still so much stigma around therapy and mental health
in general. It was even worse ten years ago when
this movie came out. It would have been very nice
to see a character seeking and getting that help with
her mental health on screen. The movie just glosses over

(47:45):
it and basically just implies, you know, she was cured
of this speak and it's the same thing that Titanic does. Really,
she's cured of her suicidal ideation because this man helps
to set her free. And I don't like that implication.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
There's there's an interview where Regina Prince Begwood is like, yeah,
I didn't I didn't want to make a film where
it just looks like she's saved by a man and
it's like, well, well you did you did for him? Like,
and she and she had talked about like if I
wanted to take a more realistic approach, like it would
have been a thing where Kas died on the job

(48:25):
and Nony lost him through that way, and I'm like,
like you, like like I would have been totally fine
with like their narrative ending when like Nony comes to
his house and is like thanks and like and yeah,
he's he's judging when he's all like this start line,
But like I've I totally would have been fine with

(48:47):
just ending it a breakup and she continues to thrive
in her music career without him. That's what I would
have loved so much better.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, Like it's just I totally agree with with your
beds Nay. Like I do feel like in the last
half hour of the movie, she becomes more self motivated
and is starting to make her own choices. But it
starts very late in the movie for me, Like it
I think after they get back from the trip in Mexico,

(49:16):
that is, that's sort of the first time in the
movie that I can think of that you see Nony
start to make her own choices. They're not all good choices,
but they're choices, right because because i Am is telling her like,
don't go back with your mom, and she's like, well
I want to, and like deviates from what she's being
told to do. But prior to that, it's like she

(49:36):
is being shepherded in all these ways, which I know
is consistent with the character because how she's set up
her life is extremely controlled. But in terms of like
telling this story, I sort of wanted to see her.
I don't know, Like, I just don't feel like I
know her as well as the movie is telling me
that I know. And because of like the context and

(49:59):
tone of the movie, you could have a therapist in
this movie easily and it would be helpful as a
viewer to understand. And by the time we learn more
about her childhood outside of the opening scene, it almost
feels like kind of too late to get into because

(50:19):
I think that, like Macy is behaving cartoon villain the
entire movie, and like is I think that that is,
Like we don't get a lot of movies about mothers
and daughters period, much less a mother with a biracial daughter. Like,
there's a lot of things happening in this movie that
you don't often see, but I feel like it takes

(50:40):
so late in the movie to underst I don't know.
I just felt like there were things I was missing
that the movie thought I had the whole time, and
it fills in that space that I would like to
know about, and like the opportunity this movie has to
comment on stardom and it fills it up with this
like love story with a cop that I was not
really rooting for it at any point I kept wanting, like,

(51:04):
no need to like break out on her own, go
to Mexico by yourself, meet someone in Mexico like it,
just because even the trip was like Kaz's idea and
it's all his idea, and I just don't like, yeah
it I think that, you know, he certainly poses less
of an immediate exploitational harm to her than her mother does.

(51:28):
But it does feel like going from one set of
controlling hands to another exactly in a way that doesn't
really feel challenged by the movie and makes me feel
for NONI I'm like, she's got a like clean house completely,
including the boyfriend. It would feel.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Good, especially because he's also the one that kind of
suggests Slash gives her the idea sort of that she
should write her own songs, And.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
I'm like, how is that his idea?

Speaker 3 (51:54):
How is it his idea?

Speaker 2 (51:55):
What it just I feel like, yeah, there's I think
there's a real important and like, I like showing it
makes sense to me that Nody's character would be fragile
in many ways, and I think, you know, like when
we've talked about this on the show a million times,
how women and fems when they're put in lead roles.

(52:16):
I think the over correction of she's, you know, girl
bossing around in a way that like doesn't really square
with how she was raised, in what she's experienced, but
it still feels like it. She doesn't have enough agency
to the point where she's a global pop star and
it has never occurred to her to write her own
song and she has to be told by an LAPD

(52:38):
officer named Kazam, and like, I just don't buy it.
I don't like that as a plot point. I don't
like it.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
I wish she had more interactions with other women and
fems in the industry. Like all we get is her
walking past Shaka Khana Shaka Khan going I like your hair,
and that's all that's all we get.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Which is delightful, But we're like, I want more, I
want more.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Yeah, why doesn't she have any friends?

Speaker 2 (53:09):
I feel like you could explain that away by like
the level of control her mom house. But even like
a fellow pop star, like there's I don't know even
even uh extremely sheltered and controlled pop stars. No other
sheltered and controlled pop.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
Stars they could commiserate about that.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
They collaborate all the time, exactly, and that's a way
more interesting story. I can't get past the cop thing.
I just like it's so difficult, Like could he could be?
I it like even if it bugs me less if
he's just an aspiring politician and I know that, Like again,

(53:50):
there's no I will never understand why that was the decision,
but I like they share this common theme that their
lives are predetermined, and through this relationship they need to
bust out of these expectations that their parents have for
them and how their lives should go. I get that
that is there like parallel. I don't understand why he

(54:10):
has to be a cap.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
My guess is that as this story was being crafted,
it was like, well, under what circumstances would she get saved?
Because that seemed to be like writer director Gina Prince
Bythewood wanted that to be the kind of impetus for
this relationship to form. So it's like, Okay, well someone
needs to save her. Who would save her? A cop

(54:34):
that's kind of acting as a bodyguard. Yeah, that makes sense.
And it's like, well, no, it doesn't have to be
that number one. It doesn't have to be any man
who saved you or intervenes in some kind of you know, violence,
whether it's self inflicted or otherwise, you don't need to
fall in love with them. But so many movies present
that as like, well, this man saved this woman, so

(54:56):
obviously she's gonna end up with him. That doesn't have
to be the case. I don't you know. I respect
Gina Prince Bythewood as a filmmaker, and of course, my
guess is just like tropes beget tropes, she set out
to write a love story. I was watching an interview
with Variety that she was giving, and she said that

(55:20):
she wanted to write a love story and that she
was interested in what was going on in the music
industry at the time, especially in regards to how it
treats women. And she's like, okay, I can marry these
two ideas together. That's my story. And so she set
out specifically to write a love story. And you know
when filmmakers write stories, they're like, okay, how do these go?

(55:40):
Like what how does a movie love story go? And
my guess is just you know, you're inspired by previous
similar movies and stories, and then we ended up with this.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to like completely drag her.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
No, no, no, especially.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Because it's like where I don't know, it's like where
we live and and I don't know even if the
cops stuff was more in the background than it is,
but it goes out of the way to show you
how good he is in the context of his job,
for sure. Like, especially the domestic violence thing really bothered me.
It was really frustrating. Yeah, that there's this didn't even

(56:19):
come up in the recap really because it's not necessary.
But there there's two different times where you see there's
a domestic violence situation and I couldn't tell what neighborhood
it was supposed to be, but in a low income
neighbor neighborhood in La that officer Kazam is sent to
and he solves the problems, which like the cops and

(56:42):
specifically the LAPD famously do not do. And it's like
they cut to this story twice.

Speaker 4 (56:49):
And the second time he's not in uniform. It's like,
can you like liability for that?

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Right? He's not on duty. Yeah, there's the scene where
he's trying to basically convince the local pastors to like
endorse his political candidacy and he's talking about, you know, oh,
the violence in this community, and if I am elected,
I'll turn it all around. But he's referring to like

(57:16):
the violence you see on screen, is this like one
case of domestic violence, which of course is you know,
very real and very serious. But again, cops historically don't
respond well to those situations. And there's no mention if
he's talking about violence, there's no mention of police brutality,
the targets black and brown people. The movie's just general

(57:40):
opinion of cops is like no, no, no, they're the
good guys. They're serving and protecting and they're the heroes
and then they're gonna do the right thing every time, right.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
I thought it was interesting that, like I get I
don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it at this point, but
if we're like talking the parallels between the two characters
who are in they're both being pushed by these institutions
to do things that they don't want to do. But
like what its presented with on Officer Kazam's side is
that he's pushed to be a politician, and it's the

(58:10):
politician system that is bad. But if he just wants
to be a cop, that's fine. Where it's like if
she doesn't like and she just wants to be a
singer songwriter, And I was like, we just like singer
songwriter and LAPD officer. It's not the same thing. I
just I don't know, Like obviously you know, like I

(58:32):
like that, you know the system that is trying to
push him into uh basically you know, like doing the
politician thing and using all of the connections and altering
how you behave and what you say and what you
do to serve getting a position that is like all
very well taken and mirrors no Need's experience as well.

(58:53):
But I don't know, And that's all I'll say about it.
But the I don't know. I kept trying to be
like shifting at my head to be like he's a
security guard basically, he's basically a bodyguard. But the movie
does not let you do that. It keeps big like
and he is great at this job that is noble
and effective. And I don't know, very twenty fourteen, And

(59:15):
that's I guess I'll say about it.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
Yeah, something I think the movie handles better is the
examination of the sexualization and commodification of entertainers in general,
but especially women and fans of their artistic talent and
of their bodies to be clear, As we've always said

(59:37):
on the show, we don't have a problem with an
entertainer or any adult person being sexy, wearing sexy clothes,
showing skin. I sound so old, making art about sex
all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Who's machine gun?

Speaker 4 (59:53):
Kelly and Gina Prince Bishy talks about that in interviews too,
where she said, like, I do believe there are there
are pop stars who are genuine about like toning their sexuality,
and she's like, I just take issue with like those
who are pressured into it when they don't need.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
To be exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
It's all about, like, is the sexiness on the artists' terms?
Are they consenting to this image that's being presented of them?
Are they being given agency and choice in the matter,
or is it being foisted on them? And as we
learn throughout the movie, this like sex symbol image for
Nony was foisted on her by her mother, by her mom,

(01:00:31):
by her record label. Yeah, and she desperately wants to
be seen the way that she wants to be seen,
not how the music industry wants to see her. And
she wants to you know, be able to for the
artist slash musician side of her to be more authentic
to who she is, but she can't because of all
the pressure that's coming at her from all these directions,

(01:00:54):
and it's all wearing on her so much, this lack
of autonomy and agency and every thing that she and
she feels so trapped by it that it leads her
to attempt suicide. And I think that's pretty effective commentary
on just the music industry and the media and the
way that you know, record labels and paparazzi and how

(01:01:18):
all of that exploits artists and musicians and again her
mom and the response she gets from fans on social media,
like there's just so much weighing on her. Yeah, And
I thought that was handled pretty well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
I liked how they involved when it came to like
the movie making process. They involve people who who have
worked with pop stars that such the choreographer Lorienne Gibson,
who's the inspiration behind the movie Honey really.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Yeah, Oh my god, Jessica Alba.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
She plays Jessica Alba's rival, even though like, looking back
on it, I'm like, you could you just you deserve
to play you in your own movie, Like Jessica album
was chosen to play you. That for me, I'm like,
oh that that sucks. That is not non black person
gets to play you in a boom about you. But anyways,

(01:02:17):
between conversations between the choreographer and the director, like the
word that they said kept coming up was the word ratchet,
which made me laugh. As far as like being as
intentional with realistic aspects of the of like choreography as possible,
which I thought was very cool. And at the same
time though it's like the lyrics are so oft the nose,

(01:02:39):
like treat me like your object.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Right, there's I love I love songs written to make
a point in a movie because they're they're so uncanny Valley,
they're like stick your face in it, and you're like, okay,
it's not quite giving a song that exists, but but
I see where you're point. Yeah. I thought that the

(01:03:05):
way that those things were treated felt like to be
like the strength of the movie and like when I
wish there'd been more of like I would have happily
swapped out the majority of the romance for another pop
star character to play off of, or someone within the industry,
because it felt like these good points were made about

(01:03:25):
the industry, but they were all made by like this
outside party quote unquote every man in a way that
felt like it would be better illustrated to just like
it's a lot of telling where you could have had
a lot of showing, but you still get like a
lot of interesting things that I feel like have aged
very well as information around the lives of pop stars

(01:03:46):
that we grew up with continued to come out, like
she's emotionally abused by a stage parent from a very
young age and is clearly profited on by a stage
parent who does not have her best interested at heart.
That's a very common thing. I thought that like, also
like the little parts of after she attempts suicide, she

(01:04:10):
is not only told that she needs to walk it
back to save her career, she also has to actively
and repeatedly apologize to her fans. And the way that
it happens it feels like pretty in step with what
happened in the mid twenty tens. I feel like the
more there it would be an even more cynical approach now.
But then it's like, I, you know, excessive drinking is

(01:04:31):
no joke, kids, and I apologize, and like you see
pop stars doing that today with people who have young
fan bases, if they display humanity in any way, or
if they're like a person will into their twenties or
thirties that are like having a night out, they have
to apologize to children. And it's just like this very
very twisted thing and the way I mean it's a

(01:04:52):
little on the noes how she's criticized by the media,
because it's also clear that like Gail King is having
fun doing this fake interview, but it felt close enough
to reality. The record store exactly, the record label executives.
Maybe felt a little over the top cartoon villain to me,

(01:05:15):
but nobody is supposed to be the girl every guy
wants to be like that. You're just it is a
little over it, but but the spirit of it felt
true of like how controlled her life had to be
and the way that I mean, I think especially and
there's been a fair amount of public conversation about this,
about how black women in entertainment are treated and discarded,

(01:05:38):
where you know, it's it feels clear in the writing,
the performance, and the story that Noni is scaling an
even steeper hill in terms of how she has to
conduct herself to be quote unquote respected as a pop star,
which I feel comes out really clearly in the through
line about her hair and like a big turning point

(01:05:58):
in her character story, as when she takes out the lavender,
the lavender weave that she's been wearing for most of
the movie when they're on vacation in Mexico and she
starts just having natural hair, and that's like a big
I feel like that was the churning point for me
where I was like, I started to feel really invested.

(01:06:18):
But she's so helpless for so much of the.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Movie in a way that's like you understand why she
feels helpless, and you know, we know that she feels
trapped and she doesn't have the autonomy and agency that
she wants, but also the movie rights her in certain
ways that she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
It's this complicated thing, and I don't want to sound
like I'm victim blaming, where like, oh, why didn't she
just advocate for herself all the time, Like that's a
very difficult thing to do when you're so repressed by
everyone around you, you don't have the ability to do
that a lot of the time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
But I don't know, So I doesn't think it's more
the like because I agree, And I don't mean to
sound like I'm like, well, why doesn't she just I
think that the thing for me is more like it
feels like the suggestion is that cop boyfriend is the solution,
right or right, and it suggests and that at that
point it's been heavily suggested that that is the solution

(01:07:23):
for over an hour and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Right, Yeah, yes, I uh just wanted to touch a little
bit more on the relationship between Noni and her mother,
where we see the pressure that Macy puts on Noni
from the time that she's a little kid, making her
throw away her you know, runner up trophy, and then

(01:07:48):
from that point on we see all the ways in
which her mother controls Nonie's life or is complicit in
this like music industry false image of Noni, where we
see things like after Nony's suicide attempt, Macy clearly doesn't
know how to process this and responds with anger and

(01:08:11):
disappointment rather than concern or compassion.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Look at all you have, you have, you have nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
Nothing to cry.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
She's fucking awful.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
Yeah, we see Macy controlling what Nony eats. We see her.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
That I thought was really well doe like in terms
of how subtle it was where there's a scene happening
and she takes out the fried food yea and throws
it at like just stuff, and Nony doesn't flinch. This
is clearly routine tappers, right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
We see that scene during a photo shoot where Nony
is told to take off her top or her jacket
and she's not wearing anything underneath, and she's visibly uncomfortable,
but Macy's like, yeah, do it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
Like yeah, and Macy even asks like can we get
are you planning on doing a full body shot?

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
Like yeah, right, right, right right. You know, you see
Macy trying to control Nonie's romantic life and wants her
to be with kid Culprit, which is also we learn
that that was like a fabrication by the label, like
oh they got together for press quote unquote, and then
it seemed like it turned into something more real whatever

(01:09:21):
that even means between in a relationship with a machine
gun Kelly. But you know, Macy's trying to control that
aspect of Nonie's life, just all these different things, and
then like later on when Macy it seems like there's
a tender moment between them and it seems like Macy
is advocating for Nonie in the meeting with the label.

(01:09:42):
Turns out it was all an act. It was just
Macy doing the thing that she always does, which is
manipulating and controlling. I do think that Macy cares for
and loves her daughter, she just doesn't do it in
a healthy way at all. She doesn't love and support
Noni the way that she needs to be love and supported,

(01:10:04):
which is a very, you know, familiar thing for many people.
That's what a lot of parent child relationships are like,
or just what a lot of relationships are like in general.
So I appreciated that it was I think a pretty
realistic exploration of that dynamic where Macy is quote unquote

(01:10:28):
there for Noni, but in the most toxic way imaginable
and not having her best interests at heart, not because
she's necessarily like inherently evil, she just does she And
then we get the backstory that kind of informs a
lot of this, where Macy had Noni when she was
a teenager and she had no support system when she

(01:10:51):
was trying to raise her.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
Did y'all have I don't know. I guess again, I
was as we were, is that scene was really interesting
to me because it's the first scene that we don't
see Macie being outwardly abusive. She is being emotionally manipulative, right, Yeah,
but not in the aggressive way that we've kind of
gotten used to seeing her. I do kind of and

(01:11:14):
I know that that sets up kind of the bait
and switch of Noni. I don't blame Noni for going
back with her mom, because it feels very clear that
like she wants to believe the best in her mom
in a way that seems really painful. I guess. I
just like I was trying to like get I was like,
what is the utility of holding that story back from

(01:11:35):
us for so long? Like, I don't know, I wonder
if you view like how it affects the movie if
that scene comes earlier. I didn't. I guess it felt
like a twisted like it was presented like a not
like a twist, But I just was I don't know,
I don't feel one particular way about it. But I
was like, it's interesting that that comes up so late
in the movie, because it's like, part of what I'm
missing with Nonie's character is like an understanding of her

(01:11:58):
outside of that first scene, Yeah, which is clear what
the dynamic is, but it would have just been nice
to know because it just helps you understand her better.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
I have so much to say about Macy, please okay,
because what I appreciate about the hair scene in the beginning,
she doesn't say do my daughter's hair. She says show me.
She says, show me how to do my daughter's hair.
And Gina Prince Mirkwood talks about like being adopted by
white parents and her white parents sacretary to the hairdresser,

(01:12:30):
going like help, please help, And again I'm not I'm
not saying this to excuse any of her behavior in
the movie, but like witnessing her her black child, the
only black child amongst an array of white girls and
very shiny outfits who are dancing or hula hooping the
majority of the time, and that being prioritized over her

(01:12:53):
over her daughter, like that having like a sense, like
a sense of valid like I said that anger is
as valid where where she's like that hula hooping that's bullshit.
I actually like appreciated like she's yelling about that instead
of yelling directly at her daughter, but then she does
yell directly. I had at her daughter going like chuck
it with the trophy and that's very sad, and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Sang it like oh it's I like that she's written
to be so frustrating though, like sorry continue and yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:23):
So then you see her black daughter with like with
like a weave that's straight hair, and like for the
scene in the kitchen, Nondy mentions a nose job, not
just the weave. So so it's like, oh, like, so
your white mom is continuing to tell you over the years,
like here's how you make yourself more European for this
music industry and like, and I think that's where like

(01:13:45):
kid culprit comes in too, because like Big Sean was
up for the part, but he didn't get it and
he ended up like just having that short scene with
Nony going like hey you good. And I have mixed
feelings about it because because on one end, it's it's like
I would have appreciated one with more talent in the role,
but at the same time, like casting casting a white

(01:14:05):
rapper and a white mom choosing the white rapper for
her biracial daughter sort of makes sense, especially like when
it comes to this white rapper garnering a lot of
success and it's like he is your key to success,
and again not saying this at all to like excuse
any of that behavior, and yet no falling in love
with a with a black man, and then Macy going like,

(01:14:30):
I don't trust.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
You, Frank, I trust the white guy. I want my
daughter to pay with the white guy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
And again, you can't hit that point home more clearly
than choosing machine Gun Kelly to be the white guy
that you put your trust in. Yeah, that scene I
thought was I was glad that we got a scene
between Officer Kazam and Macy. I Again, it's like I
wish that it wasn't more clear cut that it's like

(01:14:58):
he is the right choice and she's the wrong choice,
because it's I think there's an argument that they're may
be both the wrong choice and exactly NONI needs to
spend some time with herself and not in someone else's
quote unquote clutches or whatever. But I yeah, I love

(01:15:19):
that sort of analysis of the character where it's like
she's she's really challenging, and I just don't think I've
seen a lot of characters like her in movies before,
and because and she's also objectively they're not shying away
from the fact that she's an abusive parent, Like she's
an abusive stage parent who fundamentally is willing to glaze

(01:15:41):
over what is good for her daughter by and justifying
it with like a survival thing when they're clearly past
the point of needing to be survival in mind, You're
doing well, And I love, I really liked what Noni
says when she confronts her, Like makes the argument that is,
it's like, so much of this is for you. It's

(01:16:03):
not all for me in the way that you're presenting
and in the way that I think we hear about
a lot of stage parent stories of like I did
this for you, I did this to protect you. And
it's like she and NONI was like, I was telling
you what I that this wasn't working. I forget the wording,
but like I was telling you something was wrong when
I was standing on that balcony and you yes. And

(01:16:23):
Macy pressures her to say that nothing's wrong, because Macy
cannot deal with the world in which something is wrong.
And I can also see how a parent deludes themselves
into needing to believe that to the detriment of their kid.
I mean it's just I don't know. I still feel
like Macy got off a little easy, but it's also

(01:16:44):
like a dynamic that I haven't seen portrayed in movies,
especially because we just so rarely get mother daughter dynamics
in movies at all, and to see it and not
have it be like a clean ending of like my
mama is my life, which I feel like when we
do get mothers and daughters, it often goes that way.
It's like not allowed to be messy or complicated, And

(01:17:07):
I really like, I think Gina Prince Bidwood does this
across her work, is like not afraid to get into
a messy mother daughter scenario. I really appreciate that about her.

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
Gonna check my notes, make sure got everything. At one point,
Kaz says to Nony when Nony chose the songwriting notes,
he says, I've interacted with sea word able to seaword people,
and I can tell your your sea word and like

(01:17:45):
she laughs it off, and I'm like, we're supposed to
be rooting for this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
What then?

Speaker 4 (01:17:51):
And then later when his dad says that sea word
broad and he's like, don't talk about her like that.
It's like, you talked about her like that, What are
you talking about to her face?

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Yeah? Imagine like showing the most vulnerable thing you've ever
put to paper, and like, you know, just like things
about your feelings and even just showing anything you've written
to someone if you're a writer is scary. And then
he is like, wow, you seem yeah, ablest word and

(01:18:27):
she's like ha ha ha, and it's like, sir, just
all the men in her life were horrible because again
kid Culprit like.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Yeah, I mean the thing that grows me out the
most about him outside of obviously the scene where he
assaults her on national television, which again no ne needs
to be rescued from anyways. This it's like the first
scene that he's in and he tells her to keep
it tight and her mom does not flinch. She's like, yep,
no issue with this because her mom's also constantly policing

(01:18:58):
her body and you're just like, yeah, nasty.

Speaker 3 (01:19:02):
So the scene where Nony breaks up with kid Culprit,
he's he seems like he handles it okay. He's like,
I won't shed a tear about it, but I thought
we had something good and she's like, we were just
kind of hooking up, like nothing deeper was happening.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
But she's like, Mary, I loved I loved leave. Hearing
it in the in a British accent too, like we
would text in and then we were hitting it, and
then we would text it about hitting it. I was like, wow, Wow,
it sounds so fancy when you say it like that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
But then when we see kid Culprit again, you learn
that he did not handle that rejection well at all.
His male ego is particularly fragile, and it was very shattered,
to the point where he lashes out aggressively and violently
and he sexual assaults her on stage in front of
thousands of people, which her mother says nothing about as

(01:19:59):
it's happened.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
My mother shames her afterwards and is like, well look
what happened, as if. And I think that what she's
implying there is like, because you broke up with him,
this is the consequence, and you're just like fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:20:12):
You, yeah, anything else.

Speaker 4 (01:20:16):
I wish there was more focus on, like how sexism
clearly affects Nony more than Kaz because like he like
in his politician world, like he's fine because like you
lose the pastors, but he gets the youth vote and
like not even putting into consideration how like Nony basically
lost her job, like was dropped from the label, just

(01:20:40):
to like get back on the label.

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
But still like yeah, he's just on like an extended vacation.
Like he's just like because he calls, He's like, hey,
I'll be back soon, and you're like, his job is, yeah,
his job is at no point is that risk? Really,
he's just more no Danny Glover, Dad, I don't want that.
And Danny Glover's like, oh, I should be in another

(01:21:05):
Saw movie. That's how he reacts to most people in
every movie said Saw. Yeah, He's like, you know, now
that you say that, I really it's high time I'm
in Saw eleven. Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
Only there's apparently like some deleted like set a dialogue
where like Kaz tells nobody about the death of his mom,
like where the director says that in an interview and
I'm like, what.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
Well, they do like reference that in one Danny Glover
scene where he's like, I don't want to be a
heartbroken old man, and you're like, first time I'm hearing
the mom is dead, So that makes sense. That that
was reference at some other point this movie what.

Speaker 4 (01:21:55):
It's interesting, and she talks about how like it got
scrapped because like working with her husband helps her. She
says something along the lines of like, oh, working with
my husband helps me like get rid of certain drafts
that I don't need, as well as like highlighting what
love and respect could look like. And I don't want
to dig so much at Judah Prinsbythe's personal life. But

(01:22:16):
at the same time, it's like, so I have questions
because we have this black love story that is not good,
and the black love story and love and basketball was
also not good. And you've mentioned like your husband has
helped you with that, Like I just have so many
follow up questions about like what what your ideal romance is.

(01:22:37):
And I know that there was like conversations earlier about
like tropes come from like other points of media and
so on and so forth. At and at the same time,
it's like one of the trophy things in your romantic
relationship that you were reflecting in your film.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
Right, makes you wonder it sure does.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Well well. This movie does pass the Bechdel test a lot,
a lot. Many of the conversations are between a woman
and her abusive mother.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Yep, but it does pass.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
Are there any other passes between or besides those two characters.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
No, which I feel like is a sign that it
would be I understand that it is in keeping with
the music industry that there are a lot of men
at the top. That's part of why these issues are
so perpetuated and unchallenged in a long term. It would
have been nice to give her a woman within the
music industry to talk to. I think it would have

(01:23:45):
like more strongly enforced a lot of the themes that
the movie's handling well and getting, like the romantic interest
cops take on the music industry. I guess I just
wasn't very interested in his takes.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
Right, there are two friends of it seems that get
introduced but then quickly disappear from the story. It's the
people who are like following her to the hotel room
early on.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):
Right right, and they're like, aha, she's drunk, which is
also weird because it's like said by Macie later, maybe
it's just that like Nony does drink and her mom
doesn't know about it, but her friends are like, hah,
she's drunk. But then we're later told you don't drink
because in.

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
The beginning, one of the friends tells Noni when she
after she was a Billboard Awards, she's in the car.
I didn't notice this until the second time I watched this,
but like one of the friends go, whoa, our girl
is in bibing So.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
Not that line.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
Wow, So that does imply that she doesn't normally drink.

Speaker 6 (01:24:42):
So okay, okay, I missed that line. I mean, either
God bless that line. Either way, she does have a
female friend. The other guy or the other person seems
to be a man. I think he's a gay man
because he's talking about a man he's attracted or he's
you know, he's queer. And it's like, where are those friends.
Why aren't they helping in some way? Where's their support

(01:25:05):
that they could be giving. What's going on there? The
movie doesn't seem to care very much anyway. We've got
a nipple scale to rate the movie on. Yeah, our
scale of zero to five nipples based on examining the
movie through an intersectional feminist lens. For me, oh, I

(01:25:25):
wish I could give this more because I do like
Gina Prince Bethwood's work generally, and I appreciate that she's
one of the few directors who is a black woman
who's getting mainstream movies out there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
And even so, like it's still I mean, as we
talked about on our episode on The Women King last year,
is still not getting the amount of institutional respect that
she deserves from award bodies and for sure, Yeah, check
out our episode on The Women King for more discussion
on that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
So I wish she had made a movie that there
wasn't so much to criticize a belt, but it's so
And I'm surprised that this movie is so uncritical of
police based on who the director, the writer, director is,
the romance, and the movie in the implications of it,

(01:26:24):
not enough development of the Nony character, all these things,
you know, not great. I do appreciate what the movie
has to say about the commodification of women, but it
just doesn't quite tip the scales enough. So I think
I'll just say two point five nipples. I'll give one

(01:26:46):
to Google Batha Raw, I'll give one to Minie Driver.
I like her as far as I know. I hope
she's not done or said anything problematic.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
You never know.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):
It's so hard to keep track of everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
As far as I know, she's still with us.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
Yeah, and of course I'll give my half nipple to
Danny Glover of Saw one fame.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
I'm also gonna give this two and a half. Yeah.
I mean, I am a Gina Prince by Food fan.
This is just like not my favorite from her, and
it hasn't aged well in many regards, some of which
were within her control, some of which weren't. I feel
like I've come down hard on this. I don't know.
I like twenty fourteen still feels too late for such

(01:27:35):
an aggressive lapd cop hero love story. I know that,
like obviously, if this movie was made today, there would
be a number of things that would not be the
way that they are, Nate Parker's casting to begin with, right,
and that the world has changed a lot since this
movie came out. So I hope it didn't come down
too hard on it. I really am a big fan

(01:27:55):
of this writer director. I just did not really I
don't know where I think this movie does work is
a commentary on Like we've talked about the commodification of
women and fem's bodies in entertainment and the sort of
zero sum game for someone who wants to make art
on their own terms and be successful. Those parts worked.
The romance didn't really hit for me. I'm pro like

(01:28:19):
learning yourself better through a romantic relationship, but we just
didn't really see anything outside of that. It just which
just leads the viewer to believe that it was the
romantic relationship that caused all of these things, which doesn't
feel fair to Nonie's character. Let's see, Okay, see, I'm
going to go two point five. I'm going to give

(01:28:41):
one to Google, I'm going to give one to Mini,
and I'm going to give my half to Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:28:47):
Wow yes, Wow, yes, Maya, how about you, I'm gonna.

Speaker 4 (01:28:52):
Give it three. I'm going to give it three because,
like it's it's very much not perfect as far as
like this in the entire Roman's angle and the copy
Gana and like so many other things that we've talked about.
But I just really appreciate the amount of black women
involved in the making of the movie, and like it
took so long to get made because Judah Prince Bythewood

(01:29:16):
was advocating for Google to be in the role, like
even though like a bunch of singers and songwriters had
auditioned for the role, she wanted Google Mabuthro in it,
even though she had a musical theater background, and this
was before she got cast it in Bell and before
her like career skyrocketed between twenty and fourteen and twenty sixteen,
and it was a black woman who was like, Yeah,
I see the promise in this film and like in

(01:29:37):
like BT films got to like showcase it. So I
really appreciate the amount of fighting for this film that happened,
even though it does make me sad that like Guda
Prince Bythewood like fought so much more for like Gugu
Mabuthra than what she did for Sinai Lathan for love
in basketball. Who does make a please cameo in this
in this movie? So I assume these are fine, but

(01:29:58):
like when they've worked together again like after that, so yeah,
again I assume things are fine. But still it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
Wow, where's her cameo?

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
I missed it at.

Speaker 4 (01:30:09):
The BET Awards right before they right before they perform
on stage, like where they're walking the red carpet and stuff. Yeah,
like we see her for like two seconds like posing,
so she doesn't have a speaking role and yeah, just
loving how Mini Driver took on their role, even though
a lot of actresses were like, I don't want to

(01:30:30):
take on this role. She's evil and minie drivers like,
I don't give a fuck about your perception of me.
I'm gonna be of service to this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Yeah, she's like a mini fucking drive.

Speaker 3 (01:30:41):
Like Yeah, I was in the phantomm of the two
thousand and four.

Speaker 4 (01:30:47):
She has a sticky background too, which I didn't know
for like the longest time, and would have been interesting
to see if like that could have been included.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
I don't know she's in. She was in Gross Point
Playing Yeah Anyway, amongst other hits.

Speaker 4 (01:31:04):
And there's another interview where the director talks about almost
losing a loved one to suicide and therefore wanting to
put that in the in the Stories film and I
and I in the film Stori excuse me, And I
can appreciate that, even though it's not perfect and like,
and she's touched on suicide and a lot of her films,

(01:31:24):
like whether she's written them or directed them, And I
find that an interesting pattern for her and her work,
Like she she was supposed to be adapting a story
that was about mental illness, but then it got passed
to a white dude. I'm upset about that because like
the novelist or something like wanted to work work with

(01:31:45):
him instead, because like Mark Ruffalo had said, like this
guy's great. A screw that up. So so yeah, I'm
giving three nipples. I'm gonna give one to I wrote
this down. I'm gonna give one for Google, Pabetha and
Minnie Driver to share. I'm gonna give one to the
choreographer Lauren Gibson and Gina Prince Bythewood to share. And

(01:32:09):
I'm gonna give one to Chaka Khan. Yeah, and the
actor Darryl Stevens who plays the queer black man in
the beginning we barely hell yeah, And I said, like,
maybe I would give it three point five if I
could give likeo point five to Shaka Khan's assistant being
credited that she never liked two seconds. But yeah, somewhere

(01:32:36):
between three three and a half. It is my official answer.
And Caitlin, you were gonna say something.

Speaker 3 (01:32:42):
Oh no, I was just gonna thank you for joining
us on this episode, Thanks for returning, and where can
people check out your stuff? Plug away?

Speaker 4 (01:32:55):
Thank you. Folks can follow me at m doub sixteen,
MDUBB one six on Instagram and Twitter, and I have
the website Maya williamspoet dot com. I have a second
book out, which again, thank you again for having me
again just because like for we did Perks of Being
a Wallflower. First book came out was Using a Suicide.

(01:33:18):
We're doing Beyond the Lights. Second book that came out,
it's a book poetry collection called Refused a Second Date,
and it's about racism and dating, mental health and dating
and like intergenerational and dating patterns between myself and my mom,
my mom, who's actually on the cover of this collection,
and I'm still happy that she said yes.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
An incredible picture, Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:33:40):
Yeah, and my mom is biracial, which plays a huge
role into why I identify as black and multi racial.
And again, like seeing Beyond the Lights and seeing multiracial
representation like when we were getting like a spike of
it between twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen was really impactful.
And yeah, please please buy my book. Hell yes, this

(01:34:02):
one's through different publisher, Harbor Editions.

Speaker 3 (01:34:05):
Very nice and you can follow us on Instagram and
Twitter at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon
where you get two bonus episodes every single month, always
centering an awesome theme that's so cool and good and

(01:34:25):
always has a really good, awesome name.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
Like the Pinocchio Wars.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
We just wrapped up Dance Somber. We covered a couple
dance movies.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
Can you believe it?

Speaker 3 (01:34:38):
Can you?

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
Honey? Got brought up?

Speaker 3 (01:34:42):
That's another dance movie that we will have to add
to the list. Yes, And that can be found at
Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast, and it's five dollars
a month and gets you access to the entire back
catalog of bonus episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
You can get our merch over at teapublic dot com
slash the Bechdel Cast. And again we'll also be linking
where you can buy Maya's work because we're just simply
big fans over here. Thank you, and yeah, it's an
honor that you joined us again. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:35:19):
Always happy to join you'all again. Thank you both so much.

Speaker 3 (01:35:22):
Yay, Now let's go on stage and sing a song.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
Wow power Flat Dick, Bye bye bye.

Speaker 6 (01:35:31):
Way we happened to the British access by Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:35:35):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Volskrosenski. Our logo and merch
is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(01:35:58):
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