Blue Valentine with Youngmi Mayer

Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Youngmi Mayer bust our their ukuleles and discuss Blue Valentine.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doe cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have in individualism the patriarchy? Zef and
Best start changing it with the beck Del cast. Jamie Caitlin,
I don't love you anymore. Okay, let's just bring literally,

(00:21):
let's just break up right now, end of movie. Let's
break up. Fine, do not bring me to a hotel room.
Let's not have a discussion. Actually, let's just break up. Yeah, well,
because I'm so out of love with you. You ruined
my life. You ruined my life. I know you didn't
mean to. It's complicated, but we should just break up. Deal.
I was going to be a doctor, Caitlin. So we're

(00:43):
both Michelle Williams in this role playing scenario, We're to Michelle.
That would be a fun blue Valentine. Where's one Michelle
Williams sabotaging the other Michelle Williams. Or if it was
Michelle Williams like Dawson's Creek Michelle Williams and Destiny's Child
Michelle Williams and they're in a relationship and they're a
sabotaging each other, I would love that movie. Where's that?

(01:03):
Where's that movie that said? This? God, this movie. I
just let's just break up. Let's just break up, and
let's not drag it out because our kid is so
cute and I want her to have you know, let's
let's just get her out of here. Yeah. God. Anyway,
it's the Blue Valentine episode. And this is the Bechtel Cast.

(01:25):
My name is Caitlin Drante, my name is Jamie Loftus,
And this is our podcast where we take a look
at your favorite happy and sad movies and look at
them using an intersectional feminist lens. But but hold on, Caitlin,
hold on, hold on, Michelle. What is the Bechtel Test? Well?

(01:47):
It is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel,
sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. There are several different
variations on the test, but the one that we are
currently using is as far follows. Two people of any
marginalized gender have to have names, and they have to
speak to each other about something other than a man,

(02:10):
ideally for two or more lines of dialogue, and even
more ideally, it's a conversation that is narratively impactful. Well,
let's see how this one goes. We have a popular
request today. I'm actually very I mean, sky's the limit
in terms of upsetting things we could discuss today. Um,

(02:30):
and I'm very excited to get into it. We've been
getting this request for years. Blue Valentine movie written and
directed by Derek Cian France France. That was my best guess. Yeah,
very European, last name, don't really know. But then I
realized that I enjoy his work. He's Ryan Gosling's kind

(02:52):
of his his muse a little bit. Oh, I didn't
look up to see what else he has done. Well,
we'll get there. But he also so did Place Beyond
the Pines. I know this much is true. He did
the story for Sound of Metal. He's done a lot of, um,
broody guy stuff. He's a broody guy making stuff about

(03:13):
broody guys. And Blue Valentine was his first kind of
big movie. There's there's more to discuss there. We'll get there,
but let's get our guests in here. Certainly you have
an amazing guest today, we sure do. She is the
co host of Feeling Asian podcast. It's Young Mayor. Hi,
welcome are you hello? Welcome thanks for having me. I'm

(03:33):
so excited to talk about this movie. I have so
many thoughts. I literally can I'm like just foaming at
the mouth. Way is that sorry? I wasn't going to
point that out weird nineteen thirties phrase. Um No, I'm
so excited to get into this movie. And I was
just like thinking about all of the things that I
wanted to talk about it, and like I just keep

(03:53):
remembering more and more things. But I didn't. I should
have known that the creator his name was Eric. He
does kind of have Derreck energy. Oh, Derek. We should
have known it was Derek. It don't even need to
change the B d E. It's big Derreck energy. Baby,
it has big Derrek energy. Yeah. Sorry, my cat is yelling.

(04:20):
So what is your your history, your relationship with this movie?
Young me? So, I have a very tumultuous relationship to
this movie, much like how the movie itself is like
tumultuous um. And I was like really thinking about why
it affected me when I watched it. And this was

(04:40):
two thousand and ten, was a year that I got married. Yeah,
and then I remember watching it and oh wow, this
is like maybe it's like super personal. But I love
being two over sharing, so please go for it. I
remember watching it and feeling a lot of those feelings.
And that was like the year that I got married,
like wanted the marriage to end, because I mean, I'm

(05:03):
divorced now, but I had a lot of like a
lot of issues that I had to deal with mentally
and like through therapy, and like I came out the
other end. But this is when I was extremely young.
I think I was twenty two or twenty three at
the time, and I had him processed all these things.
And I remember around the same time, my other favorite

(05:24):
movie was this is not to sound like a film nerd,
but like, do you know that Igmar Bergman movie? Scenes
from a marriage? But there's like a bunch of them
because I think it was like a TV show at
some point or something. It's a series of movies. And
I loved those movies so much, which is another like
I'm unhappy in marriage, I want to divorce sort of theme, right.

(05:49):
But I started watching those movies as like a teenager,
and when I was a teenager, I was obsessed with
those movies. And I was like and I was like
trying to analyze myself. I think it's because I had
this like very toxic childhood where it was like they
call it emotional incests, which is a very strong term,
but basically it's like you do the role of like

(06:12):
what a mom would do in your family, right, right,
So like when I grew up, I had this sort
of relationship where I was the mom and my family
and I had to do things with my dad because
my mom just wasn't there, you know. And so I
think that's why I was like obsessed with this feeling
of being forced into this like unhappy union sort of thing,

(06:34):
which also, like right off the bat, I feel like
that's like very deep. But that's my relationship to this movie.
Thank you, Thank you for sharing all that too. I
mean it's like this this movie brings ship out. Yeah,
oh my god. Also, I was like the teenage girl
watching scenes from a marriage. I would have wanted to

(06:54):
be her friend in high school so bad. I would
have been like, right, well, she's not like other girls
like smoking cigarettes, yeah, smoking cigarettes and watching it and
like this is such a good movie. I love it.
I'm sitting at another table wearing a back brace like
young me so cool. No, we would have definitely been friends,
are you kidding me, we would have been at the
same table. I love your cat in this because I

(07:18):
have a very um like friendly cat and the cats.
I have two cats and they're always in my zoom meetings,
So I'm glad that you also have a very present cat.
He's he really likes to me. He's, you know, men
taking up too much space. But that's fleet. That's oh, Derek,
Oh Derek. I should have known. Yeah, please on the

(07:38):
floor defending Dean, being like was he not doing his best?
It's like, well, we'll talk about it. Um, Jamie, what
is your relationship with this movie? I've also been with
this movie from the beginning since it came out. I
saw it when I remember seeing it with a friend
when I was a teenager. This movie is so like

(08:00):
I actually, I mean, I think that there is a
lot to love about this movie, as excruciating as it is.
I feel like, I like, Derek, Derek kind of pulled
this one out. I really like. I don't love the
obviously the characteristics of time to talk about, but it
did so complicated and it was I like, well, I mean,
I don't like watching this movie right because it's really

(08:21):
hard to watch. But I thought It was really interesting
coming back to this movie over ten years later and
how much I got out of it that I didn't
get out the first time, just because I was much
younger where I was like seventeen eighteen in this movie
came out, and the first time I watched it, I
think I identified much more strongly with the six year old. Uh.

(08:44):
That was like watching her parents marriage clearly not work.
There's all these like dynamics of you know, fun parent,
mean parent that are completely gendered, and you don't really
understand when you're that young, and so I really for
the child the first way through. Obviously I did the
second time, but now I'm like the age of the

(09:05):
characters and have been through relationships like this, and it's
so hard and so complicated, and god, I just like, oh,
Michelle Williams, just this was whatever personally because of where
I met in my life right now. This was a
very very difficult watch on the rewatch, but in a

(09:28):
way that I feel like means that the movie is good,
but oof out it hurt my feelings, and uh, I
also just really like some of the things that put
this movie in two thousand and ten, including the score
by the band Grizzly Bear, a band that I had
I haven't thought about since two thousand and ten. So

(09:49):
shout out to Derek, apparently because I wasn't expecting Derek
to get such a strong emotional reaction out of me
this time, but dere did it. He did the holy
sh it. Uh, Caitly, what's your history with Blue Valentine?
I had no history. I had never seen this movie before,
and in fact, any time it's ever been referred to,

(10:13):
I always got this movie confused with blue is the
Warmest color and the blue velvet, so like I would
hear Blue Valentine and I think people were talking about
blue Velvet usually, so that's my amazing relationship with it.
I would say that like hyper realistic, real world dramas

(10:36):
are my least favorite genre of film, so I tend
to avoid them. Not because I think a lot of
them are really well made movies and extremely like emotionally
affecting and effectively told stories, but I don't like movies
that make me feel my bad feelings. I like movies

(10:56):
that make me forget about my bad feelings, which is
why I watched almost exclusively Romps. But yeah, so, so
I had avoided this one, and um, I think it
will be an interesting discussion, especially on this podcast too,
because like we normally don't cover hyper realistic, character driven dramas,

(11:17):
there's an interesting discussion to be had. Yeah, there's a
time I was gonna say, there's the one other thing
that I remember about this movie that it's always so
bizarre where it's like this is not on the filmmaker
or the actors, but like the just like the weird
takeaways that people have from movies where I think, more
so than the story, what I most strongly remember as

(11:40):
a teenager saying this movie was the whole There was
a ton of drama around the kne lingas scene in
this movie. Like there I remember that drama. Yeah, and
it was like it brought out this is also so
two thousand ten, Like there was like a very early
proto meme like feminist Ryan Gosling, which is ridicul this
but what I mean, he is a feminist, but it's like, God,

(12:03):
the fact that we're like, how remarkable. But there was
like all this drama around this movie almost getting an
NC seventeen rating because it depicted him going down on her,
and it was this whole discussion Ryan gossling Um, to
his credit, was very outspoken about like that's fucking ridiculous,
like why why and that I feel like that was

(12:25):
like a big takeaway from this movie, even though it's like, well,
that's the last thing that this movie is about, Like
and then I feel like I vaguely remember that now
I totally forgot about that. I feel like now I
remember it was like very discussed. Yeah, I mean, and
I will say that's definitely, at least in the theater.

(12:46):
I think it's the first time I saw uh Man
going down on a woman in a movie. I'm pretty sure.
I mean, it's representation that we still rarely get media.
Was he doing this in the movie? That thing? Did
he do that? He kind of does it a little.
Everyone listening, they don't have to see what, they know

(13:08):
exactly what I was doing. Men are like, wow, he's
really good at it. Yeah. So, I mean, it's like
I just I mean, I remember said I because I
saw this movie with like a new friend and we
sort of like, let's at each other, like okay, you know,
because it's like you just truly it makes me feel old.
I mean, it still doesn't happen in movies. Often, but

(13:29):
at the time I was like, Wow, holy sh it,
there's parents in this room. I don't remember that part
of the movie. Unfortunately, what I remember it very clearly.
I didn't rewatch it for this podcast because I remember
the movie so well, but I guess you don't. Well,
let me refresh your memory with a recap. Okay, So

(13:53):
we meet Dean and Cindy played by Ryan Gosling and
Michelle Williams. They are a married couple in Pennsylvania. Ever
heard of it? Shout out to my home state. Wow.
They have a young daughter named Frankie who is looking
for their dog, Megan, who seems to be missing. Wealth.

(14:18):
I mentioned a dog and your cat filipped out about it.
It was like, what about me um. The family seems
to have a pretty typical working class family situation dynamic.
Both of them are attentive parents, but we sense some

(14:39):
tension between Dean and Cindy. Cindy takes Frankie to school,
then she goes to work at a hospital where she
is a nurse. We see Dan at work. He paints houses.
We also see him drinking and driving. This is the
first hint will get of his alcohol abuse, and then

(15:00):
on the way home from work, Sydney spots their dog
Megan dead by the side of the road, which she
tells Dean about, who be rates and blames her for
the dog's death, and then this is the first hint
we see of his emotional abuse. They drop Frankie off

(15:20):
at her grandpa's I think Cindy's dad's place, yes, which
because we get more with him later a movie as
well in the flashbacks, this movie is told out of order.
Ever heard of it? Nonlinear Storytelling's a filmmaker, Derek's a writer.

(15:43):
I feel I'm like I do like Derek's work, not
me handing it to Derek, but sometimes you gotta hand
it to Derek. I had two brilliant observations while I
was watching this, one that this is the like way
more bummer version of Five Days of Summer in terms
of it's like nonlinear story telling about a relationship that
goes sour. And this movie is if before sunrise, before sunset,

(16:08):
and before midnight, we're all combined together and just like
told nonlinearly anyway, we still got to do those movies
on the show. Yeah, we'll do before member on the Matrio. Um, okay,

(16:28):
so they dropped Frankie off at Cindy's dad's place so
that Dean and Cindy can bury the dog without Frankie seeing.
Then we get a flashback of Dean. I think it's
like five years ish earlier. He has a full head
of hair because the Ryan Gosling hairpiece in this movie

(16:49):
is so goofy. I feel like they like shaved his
hairline way back so that you so that it looks
like it's receding because you can kind of tell that
it's shaved and then like thinned out, yes at the top. Yeah,
they really make this character age like a president. Um.
And it's then it's still like Michelle right, she has

(17:13):
slightly shorter hair. But anyway, so we see Dean in
this flashback. He lives in Brooklyn. He gets a job
with a moving company. We see him move an old
man into a retirement home. We cut back to the present. So,
with Frankie gone for the night, Dean plans a little
romantic getaway for him and Cindy. He wants them to

(17:36):
get drunk and make love. Cindy is very reluctant to
do this, but Dean makes the reservation. Anyway. They stop
at a liquor store before heading out of town, where
Cindy runs into Bobby Ontario, someone who seems to be
an old flame of hers. And Bobby Ontario is a

(17:57):
horrible person. But I will say that is a great
character name, Bobby, Like that is such a fake movie
name that I burst out laughing when she's like, Michelle
Williams is in the liquor store, like, and most of
this movie is so grounded and normal, and then she's
like Bobby Ontario. I was like, are we in a
will Farrell movie? All of a sudden, what is Bobby Ontario? Yeah?

(18:20):
What is Keanu Reeves's character's name in point Break? It's
something like, oh yeah, it's jo Utah or Johnny Utah,
Johnny Utah. Bobby. Yeah, he does sound like his young
Ward Bobby on his young Canadian ward Bobby Ontario. Anyways,
fuck Bobby Ontario. But he sucks so bad she runs

(18:42):
into him and then she tells Dean about it, and
he does not react favorably. She gets very defensive. It's
clear that there's a lot of baggage here, which we
will learn about later. We then flash back to Cindy
in college when she was dating Bobby we see having
sex he finishes inside of her without protection, which really

(19:04):
upsets her um. And then also in a couple of
different flashbacks, we see Cindy visiting her parents and her grandparents,
and both of those sets of relationships are cold, distant, unhealthy,
or just like fully abusive. Cindy also visits her grandma

(19:26):
in a retirement home, the same one that Dean was
moving that man into earlier in the movie, and this
is where Cindy and Dean meet for the first time.
They chat a little bit. He implies that he wants
to take her out on a date, and he leaves
her his name and number. We then cut back to
the present. Cindy and Dean arrive at their hotel. Things

(19:50):
are tents. He wants to be close and intimate with her.
She's not having it. She isn't well. Also, there's so
much she doesn't even want to be there in the
first place. Whatever, we'll talk about this in the in
the main discussion, but it's so frustrating in a way
that I'm like, I wonder if I picked up on
this as much when I was a teenager. But to

(20:11):
watch him like keep pushing her on stuff, she doesn't
want to do because he thinks he's being romantic, where
it's like not just just listen to your partner, far
more effective way for your relationship to not fucking explode,
which is also like how they meet, Like he's very pushy. Right,

(20:31):
there's a whole scene word make a reference to the notebook.
But he's a very there's a pushy, pushy person. There's
a great I mean great, and by great, I mean
an upsetting story about that scene. Okay, there's yeah, we'll
get there, we'll get there, Okay, So she doesn't want
to be there. She's kind of rejecting him. They both
start drinking. Then we flash back to Cyndi Agan she

(20:54):
has broken up with Bobby, and then Dean is hoping
and waiting for Cindy to call. He goes back to
the retirement home to find out where Cindy lives from
her grandmother, which I don't love that. Her grandma's so
weird about it too, Like he's like, hey, who is
that girl? Can you tell me? And her grandma literally

(21:16):
is like, sure, put up a fight, Grandma. Grandma's be
boxing their grandchildren all the time. I can't believe it.
Who can you trust right, But then he happens to
bump into Cindy on the bus, so they get to talking.
We see some flashbacks where they're spending time together. He

(21:38):
sings her song with his uku Lele, and it seems
like they're falling in love. We then cut back to
the hotel room in the present. She tells him that
he's wasting his potential. He's like, well, all I wanna
do is just be your husband and Frankie's dad romanticizing
the issue again, I see Dean. He then tries to

(22:02):
initiate sex. He says he wants to have another baby
with her. She's still not into it. He gets upset.
He says, I deserve affection, and then they start to
have sex, but it goes horribly wrong, and then she
locks herself in the bedroom and then they both drunkenly
pass out. Another flashback of them when they're younger, first

(22:27):
having met, they're extremely horny for each other. They nearly
have sex on the sidewalk outside, they nearly have sex
in a taxi, and then they definitely have sex in
a bedroom. Then she takes a pregnancy test and discovers
that she is pregnant, and she sorry gregnant. She tells
Dean and reveals that the baby is not his. It

(22:50):
must be Bobbies. It's just it's a reference to it.
An amazing YouTube video that we also then reference constantly
on the show is the video where they're mispronouncing the
word pregnant like a million times. The Yahoo did I
get girl pregan announced also my favorite video of all times.

(23:11):
So it's so good. So she's she's, she's heavy with Greg,
she's she's she's got away growing inside, start going to
drop a Greg on the front stoop. So she so
it's it's Bobby's Greg unfortunately, and she goes through the
motions of having an abortion, but at the last minute

(23:34):
decides not to go through with the abortion. Dean comforts
her and he's like, let's just do this, let's just
be a family, implying that you know, he'll raise this
baby as his own. We cut back to the present.
Cindy wakes up in the hotel and leaves for work
without Dean and without telling Dean that she's leaving. So

(23:57):
then when Dean wakes up he sees that Cindy is gone.
He free out. He doesn't know what's going on. We
flashback again to Bobby, who has found out about Dean
being with Cindy, and he shows up at Dean's work
and beats the ship out of him. So now we
understand why Dean was acting that way when Cindy told

(24:17):
him about seeing Bobby in the store. Fuck Bobby Ontario.
Fuck Bobby Ontario's horrible. All the men in this movie are,
I mean, horrendous people. I'm just like, we have to
get we have to airlift Cindy and Frankie out of
this plotline. We gotta get them out of there, certainly.
Back in the present, Cindy is at work. Her doctor

(24:41):
boss makes an indecent proposal at her. Then Dean shows
up at Cindy's work. He's drunk. He berates her for
leaving him at the hotel. She tells him she can't
take it anymore. She's like, I don't love you anymore.
In fact, I hate you and I want a divorce.
They go to pick up Frankie. They hash things out,

(25:03):
or try to kind of. Dean wants to make this
relationship work, but Cindy recognizes that they can't stop treating
each other poorly, and she doesn't want that for herself
or for Frankie, and then we get one last flashback
of them getting married, and then the movie ends back
in the present with Dean crying, saying goodbye to Frankie

(25:27):
and then walking away. So why did I choose this movie?
It is so so rough. It is rough, but it's
worth talking about. And let's do that right after this
break and we're back where to begin? Oh, I was

(25:53):
just gonna say what I heard you saying that you
don't watch movies like this. It is like the anti
escapism movie. Truly, Sometimes I'm like, why do you? Why
do people make movies like this? I thought this was
all about tap dancing and putting lipstick on because it's
the great depression, you know, Like why why do I
don't know why I watched? Well, I have to say

(26:16):
it really did move me. It didn't make me feel
good or better about anything, but it did move me.
And like, right, I mean, movies like this, even though
they're like they don't align with my taste, I understand
why people like them because they they're very like validating,
especially if they like present authenticity and realism and like

(26:37):
actually meaningfully and authentically explore what it is to be human,
what it is to be in a relationship, you know,
whatever the movie's about. Like these movies that are done
well can be I don't know, just something that like
people can really relate to. I hate relating to things.
I just wanna watch people going on a bit quest

(27:01):
knowing that I'll never do that. It is very poetic.
I have to say. It is poetic and it's very
well done. Hats off to Derek. Yeah, so I will
give it that. Yeah. So the background for why this
movie exists is, uh, you're not gonna believe this. Dark's
parents are divorced, the worst thing that ever happened to Derek.

(27:23):
It sounds like it sounds like um, which is also
very twenty ten for you know, a guy to be
like my divorced parents and that how would that be
a personality? You know? Um? Anyways, I get it, you know, like,
you know, parents that get divorced, it's tough. But this
was like something that I guess Derek Seanne France was

(27:43):
trying to get this movie made for twelve years, had
Michelle Williams and Ryan Gosling attached to it for like
almost seven years. Like it just took a really really
long time to get made. Basically everyone in this movie
was also came from a messy divorced family, and so
there was like a collaborative aspect with the actors. There

(28:03):
are a bunch of writers. It sounds like a pretty
interesting like movie to make. And then also for Michelle Williams,
they had to move the location that they were shooting
in because Heath Ledger had just died right before they
started shooting this movie, and she wanted to be close
to their daughter obviously in the year that followed that.
And so there's just like all this really heavy trauma

(28:28):
collaboration that was going on with this movie that I
feel like, once, I don't know, once I knew that,
it was like, oh, it kind of it's so sad.
And also I was just like, wow, it seems nice
that people had each other during this movie. I don't know,
it's it seems like everyone enjoyed making it as much
as you could enjoy making a movie this fucking depressing, right, Yeah,

(28:48):
I mean, where did oh with Caitlin? The thing I
wanted to tell you, So there's a scene in this
movie where Michelle Williams needs to tell around gossling. I'm
going to keep using the actors and names. Michelle Williams
needs to tell Ryan Gosling that she's pregnant, but she's like,
you know, she hasn't gotten it out yet, and he's like,
you gotta tell me, you gotta tell me, and he

(29:08):
like climbs onto the side of the is it the
Brooklyn Bridge? Like some bridge? He's threatening to jump off
a bridge if she doesn't tell him, which he does
in the Notebook when he hangs from a ferris wheel
unless Rachel mcadam's little Great to go out with him.
So you're like, why are Ryan Gosling characters always doing
this specific toxic thing threatening to take their own life

(29:31):
if they don't get an information nugget from a woman
right now? And the reason is because I think that
So that part was not written. I guess that Derek
was like, this is what needs to happen in the scene,
and they improvised it. So I think Ryan Gosling just
did it because he'd done it in a movie before,
Like that was Ryan Gosling's idea. I think he was

(29:51):
just like, oh, Bing Bung, I did this in the Notebook,
let me just do it right now. So that wasn't
even written it's just like I think he just it
was like I did this in two thousand four, because
the similarities are so striking that I was like, yeah,
is this a coincidence or no? I yeah, I thought
I assumed it was written and I was like, shame
on you, Derek. But then I I read and a

(30:13):
couple of interviews he did, did I guess that Ryan
Gosling was just like, oh, yeah, you know how characters
do this, and You're like, I don't, but whatever, your
fathers do this, and no one else you know how,
you were like it was a collaborative writing effort. I
feel like I feel like there's a part of Ryan
Gosling that likes to be like the like I'm gonna
kill myself you don't like like love me, or like

(30:36):
I'm gonna get beat up by the football guy, you know,
like sort of emo. I don't know. I think that
that's probably his heavy hand in it is my guess. Yeah.
I mean, it's like he was the one that chose
to jump on the side of a bridge. It sounds
like in that scene he could have remained on the ground.
It wouldn't have been a problem. That is such a

(30:57):
like Ryan Gosling character to think of, like this era
of Ryan Gosling. I don't really know. I'm like, when
was the last movie he was in. I mean that
brings up an interesting thought I guess I had about
I don't know how to wear this exactly, but like
more or less his masculinity or his version of masculinity

(31:17):
as it's presented in this movie, and then how that
kind of ties into the relationship in general, because like
during the climactic scene when they're breaking up in the
hospital and he's saying, like you want to hit me,
you want to hit me, and she's like, no, I'm not,
and then he's she's saying, like be a man, and

(31:39):
like there's all these I have to just like organize
my thoughts for a second here, because there's just so
much that happens. So A big thing that I talked
about on this podcast I fixate on how love and
romantic relationships are represented in movies, and we've conclude, rooted

(32:00):
on many episodes that most movies present a very cartoonish
and false depiction of romantic love, especially because most of
the movies focus only on the time between like the
meat cute, which is another thing in movies that is
usually pretty silly. But between the meat, the meat cute,

(32:22):
and the time where the couple officially gets together, and
then that's the end of the movie and we don't
see any of the relationship have a greg or something
like it becomes you only see the happy, right, So
this movie obviously shows the whole range of this relationship,
the meeting, the falling in love, the relationship getting rocky,

(32:44):
them falling out of love. And I'm not saying that
every relationship goes through this exact progression statistically. Statistically a
lot of them do. So I think that's fascinating, and
I do think there should be more movies like that,
because I feel like so many people have very realistic
expectations about romantic love because of what they see in movies.

(33:06):
So I think it's useful to have a movie like
this that like shows the after parts of like the
couple getting together and you know, that honeymoon phase kind
of thing. And it seems like in this movie in particular,
like Dean's character especially has been really affected by that
idea of romance and also has applied no critical thinking

(33:30):
to it to the point where he's like, if I
do this I deserve this versus love and trust being
something that you earn and requires listening to people and
not just doing things you've seen in movies because you
think that that will entitle you to someone's love and
time and commitment. And I and I the movie knows that,

(33:51):
I think, because the relationship fails due to him being
a horrible listener and a horrible communicator and doing things
that he thinks are romantic instead of listening to his partner.
I think the point that Caitlin made about showing the
end is probably why I like movies like this, because
they do feel so authentic and real, and it does
show this part where other movies just cut out because

(34:14):
it's not part of the fantasy. But I also feel
like this movie that's like a good job, like I
think showing because the Ryan Gosling character that he likes
to play so much is like this toxic but very
romantic character of this like this man that's like I'm
going to jump off a bridge because I'm obsessed with you,

(34:34):
like sort of, and that's extremely romantic to watch in
a movie. But then we get to see the other
half of that, you know, it's like this person that's
like just not a good partner, and then what are
you gonna do? It's like it's almost like looking at
your teenage infatuation in fifteen years and he's a house
painter and he smokes a bunch of weed and like

(34:56):
he used to be like the guy playing the guitar
at party, but now, like, what what's going to happen
if you end up with this guy? You know, it's
like this like smashing that romantic idea of a toxic,
abusive partner, right, and like, um, which you brought up

(35:17):
the other most two thousand ten things about this movie,
which is The Ukulele Elephants. I didn't want to say it.
I said guitar, but I like the ukulele. I love it.
I think it sounds really pretty. And if somebody played
the ukulele to me, I'd probably be like, let's get married.
Maybe it's the song he sings is but it's so

(35:40):
foreshadowing of what their relationship is going to be, because
he's like, you always hurt the ones you love, and
it crumbles the relationship. He's like basically just like singing
the recap of what their relationship will be, so foreshadowing
much good job, Derek. Now there's this, there's some good
points and I'm there's that that. Yeah, the floor it

(36:01):
was a little heavy handed, Derek, but it's fine. Um.
And then like the hotel room being um. The theme
is like the future and I'm like, yeah, right, we
see it, we see it, we see what we did there.
It's so broody, but once you're in it, you're like, yeah,
exactly the future. Yeah, this relationship is so I mean,

(36:23):
I love how you like describe you like the romantic
guy that you don't really think about, like, well, what
is how is this going to bear out? Like? And
all the signs are there and that's kind of like
what I appreciate about this movie is like I feel
a worse written movie would be like he used to
be so great, but now he's awful. When it's like

(36:43):
the things that make their relationship fail on his end
are present from the moment they meet. It's the same person, yeah,
like and it's just framed in this like Halo at first,
and you don't. I do appreciate that this movie focuses
or on Cindy's background and the context for her than

(37:04):
it does on Dean, which I feel like it's kind
of rare in any movie. I feel like, usually you
get so much background about the man in a relationship
and relatively little about the movie. That's definitely not the
case here. But what you do learn about Dean, I
feel like it's you have all the context you need
for who and why he is in a way that

(37:26):
it's like he's a horrible partner. He is, you know,
clearly struggling with addiction and very in denial about it,
to the point where he's romanticizing his own addiction. He's like,
I get to wake up and drink a beer at
eight am? Aren't you so proud of me? Which, if
you've ever been in someone's life that's struggling with something

(37:47):
like that, that scene was like rough, yeah, yeah, do
you think that we Okay? So this is my question
because I remember watching the movie all those years ago
and sort of sympathizing with him. I mean because on paper,
when when we talk about it's like, yeah, he's abusive,
he has you know, alcoholism, and it's like he's not

(38:09):
a great partner. But I feel like I feel like
a lot of people will watch this movie and sort
of like feel bad for him and be like well,
what's so bad about this guy? He's so sweet and
yeah he has problems, but why is she so mean
to him? Do you like, do you think it's like
so yeah? And I think that's one of the reasons
this movie is an effectively written and told story is

(38:34):
there are aspects of his character that are very empathetic.
He's an extremely attentive and loving father to his daughter
that isn't even biologically his. I feel like a lot
of I mean men in real life and male characters
in movies would be like, oh, this kid isn't mine, well,

(38:55):
then screw you, I'm out of here. But he it's
like not even a thing. It's his idea for them
to like start a family together. There's this toxic idea
of like, oh, I'm being cooked. I'm not going to
raise someone another man's kid, and he doesn't. That's like
not on his mind at all. So he's also really

(39:16):
supportive of her abortion. When she wants to get an abortion,
he's there, and then when she changes her mind, he's there.
And it's it's especially because you're given this context for
how men have treated Cindy previously that it's like, I
get why she falls for Dean, and also all of

(39:36):
the problems are there from the very beginning, and it
just what like ripped my heart up. Maybe want to
fucking fight Dean is. I mean, it's his idea. He
wants to stay, like you're saying, Caitlin, he wants to
be present in Frankie's life and he wants to be
her father. But he still does hold the fact that
Frankie's not his child against Cindy, and like hints at

(40:00):
in all these scenes where like there's I think it's
like that climactic fight where he's like, the only reason
that you're yelling at me is because I'm around, and
like is still holding it against his holding his own
decision against Cindy, which is like just incredibly immature and unfair.
And I kind of wonder you, I mean, I wish
I remembered like how this movie was received, because it

(40:23):
feels like it really lends itself to like someone to
people being overly sympathetic to his character. Ryan. Yeah, yeah,
I think so. I think there's a conscious decision on
Derek's part, maybe not conscious, maybe he doesn't even know
right that I think people are without knowing skew towards

(40:44):
feeling sorry for men, even if they're the problem. And
I think that without even knowing when I saw you know,
I have like worked through a lot of internalized misogynies
since then, obviously, but when I saw it, I was like,
and why is she like such a bitch? Like that's
a nice guy, and yeah, he is raising her kid.

(41:05):
And now I'm like, no, this is that, That's not
how it is at all. Like I had such a
different perspective. But then I also, like, I also you know,
identified with her because I was just like, every man
in my life is a fucking failure and I hate
them all, you know, and like I know why she's
fucking angry, because like I know how that feels, you know,

(41:25):
like great, now you're gonna act like you're the victim
when you're the man. That's like let me down again.
Like so it was like it was weird. It was
like a weird emotional thing for me. Yeah. Well I
think that speaks to how so many movies, so much media,
and then just like society in general asks us to
be empathetic toward men and forgiving and forgiving. Yeah, and

(41:51):
society gives men way more permission to make mistakes and
treat people poorly. And I think a lot of people
don't even perceive men's mistakes and their bad behavior as
being wrong or bad. People just view it as, oh,
that's just what men are, like, like it's the whole

(42:12):
boys will be boys thing, because yeah, historically, we've given
men so much permission to be shitty and women have
not been given that same permission. Those standards are very different.
I do think that I don't think that the movie
is necessarily asking us to take sides, but I do
think I think that it serves as kind of an

(42:34):
interesting mirror for where you're at when you Yeah, I agree,
thinking back on it, I don't. I think that it
was made well to show like a very unbiased, sort
of realistic view, but it is a mirror on myself
and who I used to be baby totally, because I
was like, I did feel bad for him. I was like,

(42:54):
why did I feel bad for that guy? I don't know,
reme feeling bad for him too, and then being like
the same thing of like we whatever, like it's it
is a beautiful thing that he wanted to raise Frankie,
but you can't. You know, it's so frustrating to watch
him throw that in her face as if she asked
for it when she didn't. She like, there's like that

(43:15):
scene explicitly after she decides not to get the abortion,
where this is his idea and she says, you don't
have to do this and he says, I want to.
Let's be a family, and it's like, well, that's it, Dean,
you made this decision, and it's just I don't know. Yeah,
this movie is so tough because you're like, you, guys,

(43:37):
can we wait, wait, can we talk about the abortion
scene really quick? Because I know, I know that's a
trope and I'm assuming you've covered it on this podcast before,
But the the abortion clinic, we're going to go to
the clinic and lay down in the bed and then
be like, I can't do it. It's a baby like that.
Come on, so I that's too much. Wish we the

(44:00):
audience had a better understanding of why she changes her
mind and decides not to go through with the abortion,
because it seems almost like in the scene as you're
watching it, she just like can't handle the physical pain
and that's why she stops it. But it's probably more
than that. She just decides to keep the baby after all,

(44:21):
but we don't really check back in with her about
why she changes her mind because we talked about this
on like the Juno episode and like other episodes where
like it is such a common troll. They give you
a reason in that movie, but the reason is sucks,
and it's kind of anti abortion in general, right that
movie we wash our hands of it. Uh. And then
like the way that the abortion is represented. And I've

(44:45):
been fortunate enough to not have to go through with
an abortion myself, but I imagine it's not the most
pleasant thing, and I think the movie probably pretty realistically
depicts the experience of it. So on one hand, I
appreciate the authenticity there, but I also worry that people
would see this movie and like them away. Yeah, that

(45:08):
they would it would scare them away from having an abortion,
especially because she like seems to be in a lot
of pain she changes her mind made procedure. So I
have really mixed feelings about the abortions. So I've had
an abortion and I'm very you know, open about it,
and I'm very anti how the media in America shows
abortions because I think it's so dramatic and so over

(45:30):
the top and ridiculous because it's always like this thing
where it's like, oh my god like that. But I'm
gonna be very honestly, I had an abortion. I didn't.
I didn't give a ship. I was like, look the dude,
like I got an abortion, who gives a fuck? You know?
And I was just like and it took four minutes
and I felt fine. The next night I was I
was like twenty years old. I was probably like in
a nightclub or whatever. And I just feel like, yes,

(45:53):
it's valid that some people do have that reaction to
having an abortion and the feeling of like being put
in this hard place where they have to do something
they don't want to do whatever. But a lot of
people just don't. It's not moving and deeply don't believe
that it was a baby and it wasn't a baby,
and it was just like something that I had to do,

(46:13):
like getting wax or something. And it doesn't do you
know what I mean. I hate that idea that in America,
every single time you see an abortion in a movie,
every single there's not even without one exception. It's like, oh,
like it's like like it's such a big dramatic thing
because for some people it just isn't that, And like

(46:33):
we do need, like I think we need like more
representation of people that are just like, yeah, I went in,
it took four minutes, and now I'm having a cocktail
with my friend, like, you know, totally, that's an amazing point. Yeah,
there's nothing available there, especially when it's a movie made
by like a male tour like this too, where it's like, well,

(46:55):
where do you get off Derek, you know, telling us
that this is the most traumatic thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
people process things differently, and and like, if you truly
believe in abortion being you know, it's like a right
that women should have with their bodies, Like you should
really start to process it in a way that it's
not killing a baby. Come on, like it's it's not

(47:16):
that at all. It's just a routine medical procedure. Yeah,
And there's like no range of experience shown. Yeah, thank
you for bringing that up to because I feel like
we we've talked about that on the show, but like
not enough. And and unfortunately it's like I think that
this also was the first this movie I guess was
more first for me than I'm realizing, because it was

(47:37):
the first time I saw a guy go down on
a girl in a movie. And it was also the
first time I think that I saw an abortion in
a movie. And Caitlin, You're totally right. There's no real
reasoning given, even though for what I've like, I found
like conflicting opinions on this scene where some people don't
like it and I started for the reasons you're describing

(47:58):
young me, and then there's other people who are like.
The thing that they like about it is the second
that Michelle Williams character is like, I don't want to
do this, that the doctor is immediately like okay, I'm sorry,
and then like immediately end the procedure. That was great, too,
fun terrible. Fact, the doctor that plays the abortion doctor

(48:20):
in the movie is a real abortion doctor, or should
I say was, because he has since been he's no
longer an abortion doctor due to malpractice. So that's what
you know, what a what a world. Let's take a
quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion,

(48:48):
and we're back. I want to jump back to the
relationship between Cindy and Dean because you know, we've been
talking about, especially as it relates to like the empathy
that some viewers have had toward Dean and how again,

(49:09):
like because so many people are conditioned to see a
character like Cindy because she's the more I mean, let's
face it, she's the responsible parent here, like she's the
she's the disciplinarian. And we've talked a lot on the
show about how the disciplinarian parent, if there is kind
of like that type of dynamic where it's like the

(49:31):
fun parent and the quote unquote mean parent and it's
almost always depicted is like the quote unquote mean one
is the mom. And it took me personally because I
my I get well, my family dynamic wasn't even like that,
but it was just like I had a mean parent
and then a parent who was completely unattentive. But my
dad didn't yell at me, so I liked him better

(49:54):
at the time, but he just didn't yell at me
because he didn't engage with me at all, is what
I now realize what's happened. But my mom was the disciplinarian,
so I thought she was mean and so much media
and I don't think this movie actually does that. I
think it is pretty objective in the way that it
presents these two people, but it's like just our personal

(50:15):
baggage that we bring into the movie. But I think
this movie again presents the characters pretty objectively. I think
it contextualizes, especially Cindy and her life and her backstory meaningfully.
And I think the movie does a pretty good job
at depicting spousal abuse or mistreatment. Um where again, in movies,

(50:43):
spousal abuse is often very oversimplified and presented in a
pretty cartoonish way, where it's like the man comes home
drunk and hits his wife. There's rarely context, there's rarely
any additional information of out the relationship. We just see
this kind of like one dimensional like guy comes home

(51:07):
and hits his wife a girlfriend, and some abusive relationships
are partially that, but there are often other dimensions to
the relationship, where like, sometimes an abusive relationship is loving
and supportive. Sometimes the couple does get along with each
other and laugh with each other and enjoy each other's company.

(51:27):
And yes, so I think this movie does a good
job of presenting that kind of more nuanced and realistic
version of a relationship where both people are not treating
each other well. And like, you know, I don't I
don't want to make it seem like oh, well, the
man is a horrible one in this relationship and the
woman is a pure angel who's like doing everything right.

(51:49):
Like they're not treating each other well, but we understand
we have all the context as to why, like she's
not treating him well because she's frustrated by her and
being pushy and and so for her it's a lot
of just like built up resentment and frustration. All this
to say that it's just like it's not the very

(52:10):
like kind of one dimensional, cartoonish version of abuse and
mistreatment that we often see depicted in media. It's so
interesting hearing both of you, like right off the bat
point out the abuse because I didn't even think it
was abusive when I first saw it. Now I'm like, yeah,
this man is definitely abusive. For me, I was just like,

(52:32):
this is just like a real relationship, you know, um,
And now looking it just shows just shows me how
much I've like I learned. I feel like since I've
seen this movie twelve years ago, totally totally. I mean
I don't think I would have, you know, seen seen
his behavior as abuse when I first saw it either. Yeah,
I feel like and I feel like the way it

(52:53):
was presented at the time, and again it's like it's
so tough because I feel like so much of what
I took in about this movie was other people's reaction
to it versus just watching the movie. And it is
kind of like like we're saying kind of like a
mirror movie in a lot of ways. But yeah, I mean,
I feel like that was not the discussion around this
movie at all. It was like life is tough, relationships

(53:16):
are hard, and you're like, yeah, but also there's clear
abuse in a way that I don't know, I'm kind
of I I appreciate how much care is taken by
the movie to contextualize Cindy's attitude towards men and relationships.
I do feel like it like possibly gets a little

(53:38):
trauma porny for my taste because it's Derek writing the movie, right,
and like so you're like, okay, Like I think he
did have at least one woman who co wrote the
movie with him. Yeah, we've got Cammie de Lavine is
maybe how you pronounce her name, and then Joey Curtis
plus Derek all co wrote, all have writing credits on

(54:02):
this script. And I know that, like Michelle Williams like,
even though she's not a creditive writer, had a lot
of input on her character, and like, it wasn't just Derek,
but I mean, they're they're every I mean every man
in Cindy's life completely fails her, which unfortunately is not
the most uncommon experience. We haven't quite talked about this yet,

(54:22):
but I also appreciate that this movie takes place in
like the working class, which romance movies never ever do.
It's still obviously an extremely white movie, but the fact
that it's a romance that's being taken seriously in the
working class at all, unfortunately, is like worth noting. But
I'm trying to think of all the men in Cindy's

(54:44):
life that we get context for it, we get context.
One of the really difficult ones that I feel like
the movie almost doesn't touch on that much because it
doesn't necessarily need to, is like her relationship with her father,
because her father was abusive towards her mother, who I
think has died by the time the movie starts. And uh,

(55:05):
it's clear that like poor like Cindy has seen her
grandmother be in a loveless marriage with her grandfather, has
seen her mother be abused by her father, and her
takeaway is like, I don't want to be in a
relationship like that, But she's a teenager and still hasn't
really like quite processed that abuse by the time she

(55:28):
gets into a relationship with Dean, and then it's like
I wish I knew, like what the reasoning for this is.
I don't dislike the choice, but like my guess was
that it had to do with partially like she hadn't
she hasn't processed everything, and partially sometimes it's like a
class thing where her dad is still in her life

(55:50):
because she kind of needs his help with childcare, and
it's like she fully knows that, like he was a
piece of ship to her mother, and you don't really
get closure on that issue, but he's still around, and
it's like and she also is taking care of him
now the way that it seems like she's taking care of,

(56:11):
you know, her grandmother, Like she's taking care of people
her whole life, and now it's like she's also taking
care of Dean because she keeps bringing up like you're
my second child, which he basically is. And then there's
how Bobby treats her, and that's like Bobby, I feel
like it's as close to we get as a clear
cut villain because he's kind of like like he's a
villain jock. I feel like it's as close to a

(56:32):
stock character as we get in this movie. And his
abuse toward her is so much more like obvious than
Dean's abuse. So I can understand why people like especially
in wouldn't have picked up on a lot of Dean's
behavior as abusive because it's far more subtle and it's
not the like screaming belligerent like fuck you bitch, which

(56:55):
is like what Bobby says to Cindy. So, Bobby Ontario,
you know what I think Dean's character is. Okay, this
is how I'm processing this. So, like Bobby Ontario is
the classic like misogynists, like oh, like sports jock person, right,
and then you know, like when you're like in high school,

(57:16):
you're like, oh, here's like the emo skateboarder guy that's
like not like those other guys. He's like a musician
and he's sensitive and he where's eyeliner. But then he
ends up just being another misogynist, but in a different
like yeah, he's an alto misogynists. He's all he's not
like the other studded belt. Yeah, he's not like the

(57:37):
other Like he's skateboards. You know. It's it's like when
you were in high school and you're like, oh, the
skateboarder guys are like artsy, they're going to treat me
with respect. But it's just like it's just another brand
of And I feel like Ryan Gosling is just that
caricature in this movie. And so you're like tricked into
being like, well, he plays the ukulele and he he's
in love with me and blah blah blah. And then

(57:59):
at the end you're like, wait, this is the same
this is the same thing. It's his Bobby Ontario, the
same guy. Yeah, he's he's just like a sensitive misogynists.
Like we see him cry over the death of their dog.
Maybe that's what we should call this Ryan gosling stock character,
the sensitive misogynist, because I feel like that is kind
of like who he is, ULTI misogynists. It's like the Yeah,

(58:21):
I feel like there's a lot of memes about that character. Now,
like the guy that wears nail polish and then he
still punches a hole in your drywall, but he's wearing
mail polished. So we see him punch a bunch of
walls or like a fence, Like he never takes his
physical aggression out on Cindy, but he's he's like, does
punch a bunch of like inanimate objects. He's got rage issues.

(58:46):
And also he keeps, oh god, this is unfortunately something
that is like come up for me in relationships in
the past. Word Like he's like patting himself on the
back for not hitting her. That seven where he's like,
I'm not going I hate you because I love you.
I'm like, what do you want to fucking metal? Like,
thank you the lowest bar imaginable. Good for you. He's like,

(59:09):
I'm I'm staying with you. Like it's like or don't
or don't I have to? Can I just say what
I was gonna say about what you were saying about class?
That's such a good point, Jamie, Like that is so
because you never see it on screen, and with the
with the backdrop of class, all these things make sense,
Like your dad's abusive, why are you hanging out with him?

(59:31):
Because I'm fucking poor? Like what I'm fucking poor? I
need my dad in my life, Like I can't just
like go to Italy for five months or whatever. You know. Um,
But like, also the class thing is interesting, and also
what it reminds me of is like something like my
mom would tell me, because I think the divorce thing

(59:52):
a lot of people. You know, I was joking about
Derek's family being divorce and that sad, but like that
is very traumatizing to people if your parents get the
vor But my parents didn't get divorce and they had
a really horrible marriage and they're still together, and that
was like a different kind of trauma. And like the
level of sadness and darkness that's in this movie is
their relationship. It's like the scene where they're yelling at

(01:00:13):
the future hotel room is like their everyday to life,
do you know what I mean. But then also what
it reminds me of is like my mom is like
because you know, like what you're saying about in the movie,
like her grandma had this and then her mom had this.
Like every generation back in my family had it worse
than the next generation. So like when I was married,

(01:00:34):
my my marriage was like I mean, there was like
probably abusive things that we would do to each other,
but it was there was no real, like outright abuse.
It just was a marriage that didn't work, do you
know what I mean? And my mom was just like,
why are you getting divorced? He doesn't hit you, he
doesn't have a gambling problem. And I was like, so,
you know, like it's like and I'm like, well, because

(01:00:56):
our marriage doesn't work, like we were not like in
love with each other, and why does somebody have to
like break your arm before? You know, like it's like
hard bore. So. But my mom also, you know, like
really really poor and like because of class, Like she
even if she wanted to leave, she couldn't and she
didn't end up leaving. And they're okay now, but you know,

(01:01:18):
like that it's like, that's such an interesting thing that
you brought up, because I feel like people don't talk
about that in movies. Yeah. And then speaking of class,
so director Derek had Ryan Gosling and Michelle Williams lived
together in rural Pennsylvania in a house with their on

(01:01:38):
screen daughter, who was again just a five year old
kid um and basically gave them a very minimal grocery budget.
They had to live on what the actual character's salary
would have been, so caused playing as poors, how ext
basically or oh my god, Derek made them go very

(01:02:02):
method to basically enhance the tension between them when they
shot all of the scenes that take place in the present,
including something that I think is extremely fucked up where
director Derek he like initiated fights between them and so
the actors would like fight in real life. And then

(01:02:24):
one night he quote told Gosling to go into Williams's
bedroom and try to make love to her. Oh my god,
Gosling soundly rejected, ended up sleeping on the couch. So
director Derek was like, hey, Ryan Gosling, go try to
have sex with Michelle Williams, your co star, who's also
actively warning the death of her husband. Like that's up

(01:02:47):
to do. That's up to do, period, but like at
that point in her life. I read that interview as
well and like that is fucking evil. And he also
mentions Stanley Koprick and same interview as if that's like
a pro of Like, well, yeah, Stanley Cooper used to
do this to his stars. You're like, yeah, and that
was really fucked up. Why are we speaking about you

(01:03:10):
know what, I stand by everything shitty I said about Derek.
I don't take any of it back. I do like
this movie, but that's like a fun that's not necessary.
It's not necessary. They're good actors, you're actors. They can
add that is so funny. But the cause playing as poor.
It's like, imagine you only have seventy dollars to go
grocery shopping and they're like, I can't do this, it's

(01:03:33):
too hard, and that is like that. That to me
is like super annoying. But it's like if everyone's on
the same page about it, then whatever. But like that
anecdote about trying to get Ryan Coussling to go in
her bedroom, I found, oh my god, very upsetting. I
fucking hated it. Derek, Derek, Derek. I hope he's listening.

(01:03:54):
He's going to listen to this. He's a definitely listening.
He's our biggest fan. Speaking of all of the men
in Cindy's life who completely fail her, her boss this
doctor guy. So we get a few different scenes with
him throughout the movie, and the arc here is basically

(01:04:15):
he's offering her an opportunity. It's some other hospital, it
seems kind of far away, and then she eventually figures
out that he has ulterior motives with this Basically he's
trying to get her away from her family because he
wants to date her. Why do we think so many
women who are perfectly capable of imposter syndrome, Well, exactly

(01:04:37):
like this. She even says like, I thought you wanted
me there because I'm good at my job, and then
he's just like, okay, I'll see you in the other room.
And then what happened shortly after this is her belligerent
husband comes in and punches this doctor in the face.
So then she has to like help and care for
this guy who just made this indecent proposal at her

(01:05:00):
and then he fires her. Just everything that happens there
was like, I mean, realistic, but extremely upsetting and just
further proof that she's just like has the misfortune of
every man who she knows or has known being awful
to her. And this goes back to the class discussion too,

(01:05:23):
because it's like one of the last scenes in the
movie is a flashback to the first time she brings
home Dean to her family, and the family has all
of this missing context. They don't know that she's pregnant,
they don't know that it's not Deans. They're clearly judging
Dean based on his job and class in a way

(01:05:43):
that's not necessarily fair, but there's it was something that
like I don't know, I remember from if I ever
brought up a boy home when I was young, is like,
especially when you're sort of like Cindy is very much
viewed as like the hope of her family and the
first a character who I mean, she is extremely intelligent,

(01:06:06):
and she does seem passionate about medicine, and there are
all like Dean is a large factor to why her
career is derailed, but he's not the only factor, and
like that is also complicated, but it's clear that her
family views her as like the person that's going to
like not die in the class she was born in
and like has all this potential and like, of course

(01:06:28):
they're kind of clinging to that in a way that
puts pressure on her. And it's just that element as well.
And then the fact that like, including the reason you
just describe Caitling with this fucking horrible boss that is
hitting on her and then fires her for reasons that
are beyond not her fault, is just like it's so

(01:06:48):
devastating because that ship happens, and oh god, that scene
is so frustrating because it's like it's in that scene
too where it's like Dean punches the doctor in the face.
You're like, well, I want the doctor to get punched
in the face, but not like this, Like he's not
even punching someone in the face for the right reason.
She gets like punished for all the failures of all

(01:07:09):
the men around her. Basically, yeah, again, unfortunately a relatable
experience for women, but doesn't make it any easier to watch. Also,
one of the ways in which Dean is like subtly
mistreating her throughout the movie is it so like she

(01:07:29):
has aspirations to be a doctor. We know that she
doesn't end up there. She um gets a job as
a nurse. I like to think she does after they
get divorced school, right, but she when when we see
the flashbacks of her in college, she is planning to
be a doctor, and then Dean says to her like, basically,

(01:07:50):
you're too hot to be a doctor, girls, is pretty
as you shouldn't be doctors, you shouldn't be studying. And
she comments on this type of thing that he says
to her because he does it for where he like
compliments her quote unquote actually more insults her, but it's
it's like a half compliment half insult where he says, Oh,
you're so beautiful, that must mean that you're also like

(01:08:13):
quote unquote crazy. He says, I'm a sensitive misogynist. I know.
It's so frustrating, and she calls him out on it
too in that moment, but it's still like it's not
quite enough. She's like, you're insulting me and complimenting me
at the same time, and he's like, I'm not, like
fuck and like, yeah, that this seems to be something
that he did. I also got the sense that, um,

(01:08:36):
she's resentful of him because he's wasting his potential. And
I think that's also her being resentful because she I
think kind of blames him for her also squandering her
potential because she kind of blames him for holding her
back and like for her like never becoming a doctor.
I agree with that. Yeah, there's definitely some projection going

(01:08:57):
on in this relationship. That's the word I was trying
to say. One thing I wanted to bring up really quick,
just before we completely move on from that kind of
peak confrontation scene at the doctor's office. This is a
small thing. But I appreciated it having it there because
we don't get to see I mean, as we'll discussed shortly,

(01:09:18):
we don't get to see Cindy interact with other women
outside of her grandma very much. It doesn't seem like
she has a big network of friends, so to see
in that scene she has. I think that she's named
as well, that these interactions don't pass the Backel test
because they're all like, let's get Ryan gossling in the
funk out of here. But she has a coworker who

(01:09:42):
it's clear she's spoken to about the abuse in the
marriage before. I think Mimi mean, oh yes, yes, and
her friend at work is like trying to help her
out and try helping her try to mitigate this situation,
and also tries to, you know, help her around the
boss as well, Like they're in this fucking like laser,

(01:10:05):
you know, maze of toxic men. And I just appreciated
that Mimi was there and like kept trying to be like, hey,
get the funk out of here, like you're gonna get
your wife fired, which he does and it's right. And
also you would think that Mimi probably knows that their
boss is a piece of ship too that would do
something like that. Um, does anyone have anything else they'd

(01:10:28):
like to discuss? Wait, what's the nipple scale? What's what
is that? Oh? Gosh, okay, So our nipple scale is
where we rate the movie on a scale of zero
to five nipples based on just examining it through an
intersectional feminist lens. So a movie that handles things really

(01:10:49):
responsibly and has a feminist message and it's just like
an amazing feminist masterpiece that would get five nipples, And
then you know, your average Michael Bay movie would get
zero nipples. I thought that that was about how many
nipples you see in the movie, because I think you
see four nipples. You see a fair number of nipples.
You see both of their nipples. Speaking of nipples, you

(01:11:10):
know the shower scene where he gets in and he's
trying to like have sex with her and he's starts
sucking on her nipples and she's like, oh, don't do that,
and I'm like, oh, I felt that in my soul
of my nipples. You know, when you're not wanting to
have sex and someone's like trying to suck on your nipples,
You're like, he's sexually pushy. It's like it's gross. I

(01:11:34):
wanted to talk about just one other. Like, there's like
these little moments that are so realistic that are like
burned into my brain. I think when like somebody throws
the keys and they have to both look for the keys. Oh,
he takes off his wedding ring. Oh, the wedding right
after she's like, I want to divorce, So he flings
his wedding ring and then he's like real gold because

(01:11:54):
I'm like, that could be like a class thing if
it's real goal. You know, when you're poor, you can't
be just fucking throwing that so old ring in the dirt.
You gotta look for that. That's three, you can get
the pawn shop. Yeah, yeah, I guess the nipple thing.
I have to say this is like this is like
a really realistic movie, so I guess the misogynistic parts
of it are kind of realistic. So I don't even

(01:12:15):
know if there's like I don't know, I personally can't
think of like an outwardly except for the abortion scene,
which I think I think that's really I just want
people to never do that again. And I don't think
men should be writing scenes like that ever, again like
you know what I mean, like it's actually happened to them,
but like, yeah, I don't know what what do you what?

(01:12:37):
What's your nipple rating for this movie? I am a
good question. Well, first, I just I don't think this
movie passes the factual test, not at all, because even
the few the like little tiny bit where like Cindy
and Mimi interact, it's uh in the context is they're
talking about Dean and their boss. When Cindy and her

(01:12:57):
grandma talk about like I forgot to pay attention, I
was paying attention. I think the whole conversation, the subtext
of it is like, how do you find romantic love
with a man that isn't traumatizing and terrible? Um So,
the subtext is definitely men, yes, right right right? Um So,
No to the Bechtel test nipple scale, I would give

(01:13:23):
this three or three and a half nipples because I
do think that despite it being the whitest movie I've
ever seen, it does represent a lot of things about
a relationship going downhill. The subtleties and nuances of the

(01:13:47):
abuse in this relationship, I think are handled in a
way that is far more authentic and nuanced than that
usually gets represented on screen. I think that you get
a lot of context for and more context for Cindy's
character and backstory than you do for Dean, which I

(01:14:10):
think like priority given to the woman in this you know,
hetero relationship, priority given to her characterization is not something
that usually happens. Yeah, I think that a lot of
this is it sucks that this like really realistic portrayal
of a relationship, is the character's mistreating each other and

(01:14:32):
a really bummer of a story. Uh, the abortion scene,
I do. I agree that it is like the one
thing that I think is handled irresponsibly, and I wish
that there was more representation in media of just very
normalizing getting an abortion and it not being a huge

(01:14:52):
deal at not being an extremely traumatic thing, that it's
just a choice that someone makes and follows through with
that procedure, and that scene could have been handled much
differently without the movie changing that much to like it
doesn't need to happen that way. Sure, absolutely, yes, So

(01:15:12):
I think I'll give it. I'll give it three and
a half nipples on our scale if I was rating
it on a Caitlin do you have fun watching this
movie scale? On my Rambo meter. It is a zero
zero on the Rampo meter, negative negative ten million romps.
One thing you could say about this movie is it

(01:15:33):
is not fun. Fun is not the word. That's not why,
that's not why Derek makes movies. Apparently can find an
example of him wanting us to be in a good
mood Derek. And of course not every movie has to
be a romp. But there's a lot I appreciate about
this movie. Three and a half nipples. I will give

(01:15:55):
one to Michelle Williams because she gave an incredible performance.
I will give of one to Little Frankie. I'll give
one to Megan The dog makes you rest in peace.
And you know what, I'm not going to give it
a half nipples, So just three nipples is my official rating.

(01:16:16):
Because I don't like to be bummed out, I'm gonna
go three and a half. I think that this movie
there there are I mean, I think we've hashed out
the issues with it. It's an extremely white movie. I
think that the only non white character is Ryan Gosling's
coworker Marshal, who we only get in a couple of scenes.

(01:16:36):
We get no context really for who he is. He's
mostly just there to listen to Ryan Gosling, which obviously
is just like very unfortunately in especially in this like
moody tense drama is very expected and frustrating and like
not necessary at all should always be called out. And uh,

(01:16:57):
the abortion scene. I'm so grateful that we had that
discussion young me because I feel like, I because whatever,
I've seen this movie so many times over the years
that I hadn't even like thought given the correct amount
of thought to how that scene is presented. So those
are the two things that really stick out to me.
Is like just irresponsible when they came out and have

(01:17:20):
aged even worse. Um. I do really appreciate the class
elements to this story. Um, it feels rare that, like
I don't know that there's really this is like the
main famous movie about a breakup that is about poor people. Uh,
you don't like because you get so many movies that
are like a marriage story and it's like half of

(01:17:41):
the divorce is like, well, who's going to get wood property?
And it's like this is not relatable to most of
people who see fucking movies. Like I appreciate that it's
like not only a breakup, but it's it's clear that
like their backgrounds affect their ability to break up, and
like that is not something that's often brought up. And
I appreciate how the idea of like this romantic emo boy,

(01:18:06):
Like it's kind of like cool to see the Ryan
Gosling character he'd been playing for ten years be deconstructed
in a movie. And I've pretty like self aware. Way, um,
we didn't talk about this, but something that I thought
was like really well done on the rewatch that I
doubt I picked up on the first time I saw
it was Ryan Gosling's character talking about like, oh, you know,

(01:18:28):
women are less romantic than men because blah blah blah,
when it's so obvious that he has no understanding of
stuff we've talked about, like in terms of class of
like the history of women and why a woman may
marry for some level of security because the world does
not value her in the same way. Like just all
this ship I had. This movie held up honestly better

(01:18:51):
than I was expecting it too. I still feel like
there's a lot that you can get out of it.
If if you're going through a breakup and you want
to just fucking lose your mind, then give it a rewatch.
It's streaming for free right now. Um, I was really
crying so much. It took me four hours to watch
this movie. Anyways, three and a half nipples. I'm doing great, guys.

(01:19:17):
I'm giving all my nipples to Megan. Megan, that dog
young me. How about you? Um, I don't know. I
would say also three, I would I would say, Okay.
So here's the thing. I'm very sensitive about when movies
only have white people, and I'm very sensitive about the
Bechtel test. I've never said that out loud. Is that weird?
It's yeah, I think in my head I thought it

(01:19:40):
was like bastal or something that I had a weird
pronunciation in my head for years. I can't believe I've
never said that aloud, embarrassing myself at parties. Um, I'm
very sensitive about that. I'm very sensitive about when movies
are all white. But I have to say, because this
movie is just about two people, basically, I'm like a
little bit more forgiving. Because even even Ryan Gosling, I

(01:20:01):
don't think he had a conversation with anyone about anything
besides his wife in the movie either. I don't know
sure maybe he did. So it's it's because the movie
is only basically about two people, I'm a little bit
more forgiving of that when usually if it's like an
all white movie, I'm like, no, there's no fucking way
I'm going to watch this, like how they are they?
But um? And then also the class thing, and I

(01:20:23):
think it's very important. I think class like is too
hard to think about and it's too painful, and people
just don't like to look at it. But the truth is,
most relationships, I would even I'm gonna say this, most
relationships in America because of how where like the socio
economic status of Americans, which more than half of us
live in poverty, look like this, This is what most

(01:20:45):
relationships look like. You fucking have to stay with this person.
You have to go like dig in the dirt for
the two and a gold ring, because like you don't
have a choice, and like we should explore that more.
It's important. Nobody wants Yeah, nobody wants to see the
fucking story about the person arguing about who gets the
beach house. I totally agree with you, Like, what the
hell does that mean? It makes me feel like shit,

(01:21:06):
like I'm going through a divorce to I'm eating peanut
butter sandwiches for a month, you know, like, yeah, I
think the class thing, really, I think the class thing
is what saves this movie and turns in my head
of like why it's important to exist and you know what,
I'm going to hats off to Derek, Derek. Thank you
for doing that, Director Derek. Director Derek. Yeah, we don't

(01:21:31):
forgive you for the weird like trying to make Ryan
sleep with Michelle thing that was weird and you should
feel bad. Yeah, I hope he feels bad. I'm just
like God, I hope people grow like fuck well, Young Me,
thank you so much for joining us. It's been an
absolute delight. What would you like to plug? Where can

(01:21:52):
people follow you online? All that good stuff? Um, you
can follow me on social media at why Am Mayor,
My TikTok is Young Me Mayor and I have a
podcast called Feeling Asian Podcasts. You can follow on social
media at Feeling Asian Podcasts everywhere, and then you can
listen everywhere. We have new episodes every Wednesday. Right now,
I'm going to record with them the woman Natalie who

(01:22:15):
was on Love is Blind. Oh my god. Yeah, So
I'll let you know how that goes. So that episode
should be out by the time this is out hopefully
hell huge, yeah yeah everyone, be sure to check that
out and then you can check us out on Twitter
and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon,

(01:22:41):
which is at patreon dot com slash pecktel Cast. It
gets you tu bonus episodes every month plus access to
the back catalog, and that is five dollars a month.
And if you want to get merch, that's over at
t public dot com slash the back till past. In
the mean time, I hope this didn't bum you out

(01:23:02):
too much, but guess what, sometimes it's a bummer. And
Damia decided I love you again, let's get back together. No,
come on no. In that case, he does apologize, but
I don't accept his apology. By okay, bye,