Carol with Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome
to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My
name is Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation

(00:24):
of women in movies our podcast you're listening to. That's it,
This is it? Your taps? Here y are, yeah, and
here we are and here we are once again. The
Bechtel Cast takes a look at how female characters are
portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel Test
as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on
earth is that? Well, I'll tell you. It's a test

(00:46):
invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test
that requires that two female identifying characters. They have to
have names, and they have to talk to each other
for two lines of dialogue about something that is not
a man or related to a man. Wow, it sounds
like it should be easy, but a lot of movies.

(01:06):
The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass not one of
the ten hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's
why we're here. Yes, and we did this on the
Debs episode as well, But I wanted to dive a
little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test
than we normally do because I think it's specially relevant
for this movie that we're discussing. Um. So, Jamie, as

(01:28):
you said, Alison Beachtel Queer Icon inadvertently created the Bechdel
Test in her book Dikes To Watch Out For, which
was published in I think some people think that she
kind of like deliberately set out to create this test.
It's it's that it was. It's usually presented as like
it was invented, as like, you know, like an academic
paper or something. Right, it was more that it appeared

(01:51):
in her book and then it was just like later
co opted into the test that we now use today.
And Alison Becktel credits the idea to her friend Liz
Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her
essay A Room of One's Own Um. And then the
test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test,

(02:11):
which Alison Bechtel is said to prefer so that's probably
what we should call it also, but we don't. We
simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we've funked
up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. Um. And
then in the comic Dikes to Watch Out for Uh,
there are two lesbian characters, and the context of their
conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation

(02:34):
in movies that the only way for them to imagine
a female character in a movie might be a lesbian
is if she is seen talking to another woman on
screen about not a man, like about something other than
a man. Right, So the context of the original comic
is like rooted in like Alison Bechdel's querness, and that
is generally erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel tests

(02:57):
of Ectel Wallace test. So the because especially for our
episode today, but also all the time, um, you know,
contacts like that is so often erased. We've even been
guilty of it at times on this show. So it
is it is definitely worth bringing up. And also just
like read Alison and Bectel's stuff and watch it. You
can watch it on a fucking Broadway. It's so it's

(03:19):
and it's also incredible and good. So indeed, Yeah, the
Bechtel Wallace test there, it is there, it is baby. Hey,
should we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited
for today. Me too. We have two guests today. They
are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole
a k a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and
Nicole Patient. Thank you so much for being here, Thank

(03:42):
you for having us. Well, guys, so we are talking
about the movie Carol. Carol, what is each of your
relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren
because I think her relationship is more intimate and better. Yes, um,
I saw this movie in theaters shortly after I came out,

(04:05):
which is rare for me. I do not see movies
that often. But um, I have a buddy who for
years and years now every Christmas we movie hop which
guys don't do that pay for your movies, but one
day a year we will like pay for a movie
at ten am and then just see like three movies
over the course. Get a beautiful tradition. Yeah, and also

(04:26):
I feel like in certain I guess Carol isn't maybe
the best example of this, but like for like Disney,
for like anything owned by Disney, I'm like, I will
watch this for free. I feel entitled, exactly. And Carol
was the first movie of the day, so you paid
for that, paid for Carol. The following movie I did
not pay for it was Daddy's Home and I don't

(04:48):
feel badly about that. Oh god, it's actually I really
enjoyed it. I'm not gonna die. It's a great follow
up to Carol. Is like a Palette concert. It's Will
Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hi jinks. Okay, yeah,
we'll watch him at some point, inevitably we'll do a
betel Cast episode on the Daddy's Home friend. Yeah, it's

(05:11):
almost a franchise. One more and I think there's I
think there's two of them. Yeah, there's still Well, when
Daddy's Home three comes out, we'll be sure to do.
Everything's on hold, But I did. Yeah, I saw it
in theaters on Christmas with my friend um who And
I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's one of

(05:32):
he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him
since before I was out and we've never had. He's
one of those friends and I don't have a lot
of these. But I don't know if the call you,
if any you probably know it. But I was gonna say,
is one of those friends. Were like, I'm like, does
he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social
media that much and we've known each other since before
then and we've never talked about it. So it was

(05:52):
a very weird movie to like be sitting next to
like my straight guy friend of me, like, what does
he get? Yeah, I know everybody knows I'm queer. I
don't even ask you that it would be they'd have
to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with

(06:13):
the movie? I actually did not see it in theaters.
I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've
done the past several years, where I'm like, why would
I pay for this when I'm going to get it
in the mail? Um, And so that's what I did.
I mean, my first impression of it was just that
it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in
the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. Um,

(06:35):
it's also shot on sixty millimeter. I want to say, yeah,
so it like has that grain to it. So I mean,
from like a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it, And Okay,
if I wasn't already queer, i'd be queer for Kate Blanchet,
Like that's a great way that I love everything that
she does, and I think that she she's like maybe no,

(06:57):
she's my favorite actress, so she can, in my opinion,
do no wrong. Um, and she's such a presence that
it's just it's amazing. So except for when she doesn't
pass the Bechtel test in Lord of the Rings her fault.
I like to hold women accountable for movie. Definitely, she
did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings crabs.

(07:17):
I think that originally, okay, let's make this Candon. The
movie did pass the Bectel test quite a bit, and
Lynch went into meetings and was just like, I just
am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. So
that yeah, okay, go ahead. So so I mean I
remember loving loving her in it and just thinking it

(07:39):
was a really you know, beautiful film and sad and
melancholic and very reflective of that time and important that
we tell those stories and how difficult it was because
I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh,
you know, everything's fine, now you know? Um, So I
think it's an important part of queer history, those kind
of stories. But it didn't. It didn't like go to

(08:00):
the canon of one of my favorite queer films though,
And I didn't really know why that was until the
second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney
Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard,
so I just, yeah, we will. But in watching it

(08:20):
the second time, I have some issues. But it had
been funny to me because like all of my queer
female friends were obsessed with that movie, and I remember
just being like, uh, I wonder why it hasn't like
stuck with me, And now I know, you know, oh um.
I didn't see it in the theater, but I did
watch I knew that it had like a lot of

(08:40):
buzz around it, so I made sure to watch it
pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful.
I think it's boring. That is the most popular opinion.
And I have reasons to back this up, which we
will get into, and it has largely to do with

(09:02):
the what I think is a lack of on screen
chemistry between Cate Lynchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll
get there. Um. But yeah, I only had seen it
that once before prepping for this episode, so I don't
have much of a grand history with it. But um, yeah,
I'm excited to talk more about it, Jamie, what about you.

(09:23):
I hadn't this was this movie came out in which
was truly before I saw movies in theaters. I so
I didn't see it when it came out. I remember
there were multiple of my aunts who told me to
go see it. My aunts like all saw it together
and they were just like, it's beautiful. You have to
see it. Like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm

(09:44):
an adult. Um, my aunts loved it, but I mean,
I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so
weird because we were talking in the car driving over
about it and you were like, I think it's boring.
I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and
then later I was like, I was asleep for like
ten minutes a couple different times, but then I would
have to like a couple But then when I rewound it,

(10:07):
I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes,
but it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? Yeah,
let's do it. Okay, So it's the end of I
think nine. I believe. I think that's right. That's right
around the holidays, we meet Terres. That's Roney Mar's character.
She works at a department store and at work she

(10:29):
catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for
a gift for her daughter, because women be shopping and
women mothers. Carol and this is Carol Kate Blanchett's character.
And Carol approaches Terres. They get to talking, and then

(10:50):
Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store.
Accident was like accidents I've done before, right, We've all left,
you know, earrings or something. I guided that with his
jewel pot at my house. I think Jeel modern Carol. Yeah,

(11:13):
the update, Carol leaves her jewel time on the counter. See,
I like, but guys are not crafty enough to have
done that accidentally with an asterisk he left it is.
It's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think, oh,

(11:35):
far be it from me, which I assume is borrowing
from the Patricia George Costanza and Carol. That was his move.
He used to leave something and draw his apartment and
stuff that he cou But we are on a in
sant anw Carol and Carol leaves her gloves. Yes that

(11:57):
we see Carol at home and she has a husband,
Hard he's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes, truly,
and he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's
not the guy from Friday Night Lights. In this particular movie,
I'm like, Okay, it's Mr Coach. I think he does
a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband,

(12:17):
She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much.
She loves her daughter Rindy. They are rich important to
know that. And then there is a mention of Carol's
good friend Abby, who we will meet later on, who
Hard Hard clearly has a problem with. And then we
see a little bit of terrass life. She has a

(12:38):
boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe
with him. She has an interest in photography, and then
she mails the gloves back to Carol. I like that
she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not
a photographer, But then in the movie she is a
photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah,

(12:59):
have I there of you read the book? I haven't.
That's all right, yes that I have not read it.
We'll go a little bit into the history of this book,
the adaptation. I've read the Wikipedia page of the Book
of Us. We would never read a none of us, um,
but we we just did some research on the adaptation Chess.

(13:21):
So Carol takes Terres to lunch to say thank you
for returning the gloves. We learned that Carol is in
the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Derres
to her very large house. They hang out, and then
Heart comes home and he's like, who is this lady
riding night lights? He's like, Carol, you know, come with

(13:46):
me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to
work getting a divorce. And then he's all piste off
fight the big games coming up, touchdown. And then soon
after Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing
for soul custody of their daughter on the grounds of

(14:07):
a morality clause because basically, because she's had a relationship
with women, she is considered an unfit mother. So Carol
is obviously very upset about this, and then to Raise
and her hanging out some more, and then her boyfriend
Richard is upset with her. He's like, you have a
crush on a woman and she's like, no, I don't,
but yes she does. I like how to raise like

(14:30):
she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot
of areas of her life, but against Richard, she's always
just like shut up. Like I was. I was like,
oh my, I wish I could do that, where he's
just like, why don't you want to be my girlfriend?
And she's like leave me alone, go away, I don't
want to meet your Like she manages to do all
of it showing little to no emotions, which is which

(14:53):
is really impressive. Stop go away. I'm going to be
such a Rooney Mara to her in this episode, which
I can tell it like here, here's what I'm gonna say.
I actually really like Runey Mara and other things, so like,
I'm not this is not me like hating on Runey
Mara and no, totally from a queer standpoint, I wanted

(15:14):
her so bad girl with the dragon tattoo because that's
my type and way seen that movie. So this is
one of the few things that's runey Marian. But anyway, anyway, sorry,
it does seem like her being boring in this movie
was a choice because she can do not boring. Definitely,
That's why it was very well, yeah, should we wait

(15:36):
till the end of the Yeah? Okay, Well so whin
she's more Okay, so the rest of this recap here
we go. So then Carolin Torey has leave together to
go on a road trip to the Midwest, and they're
getting closer and closer. There's a hand touch here, there's
a hand on the shoulder there, and then at one
point rustling a fabric this like shots of a steering

(15:58):
wheel and you're just like, it's also to fall, and
then you're like, I'm sleepy. And then at one point
to Ray suggests that they share a motel room rather
than get two separate rooms. And then shortly after this
they finally kiss the mom and we've been waiting for
New Year's New Year's Eve, Yes, it's the New Year.

(16:21):
They kissed during the ball drop, and then they have sex,
and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman
on their travels, but he turns out to be seems
he seems creepy. Yeah, I have magazines want to buy
the d like, yeah, is creepy. And the movie tells

(16:41):
you he's creepy because whenever you like, hear his voice
off screen before you see him, and then as soon
as you hear his voice, the camera tilts up really
fast and like a startling, like, oh, who's this guy is?
So you're like, we know not to trust him, but
we don't know why yet. But the reason why is
that he is a private snoop kind of guy who

(17:02):
Hard had hired to follow Carol and to Raise around
to record them to have further evidence in his case
in this divorce. So then Carol gets on a flight
back to New York and her friend Abby Sarah Paulson's
character flies in to drive to Raise back to New York,
and then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks
off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact,

(17:22):
and you know by forever to Raise is devastated understandably,
and then we cut to some time later, Um, she's
developing some photos she took. Carol has been seeing a
psychotherapist and she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes
so that she can keep seeing her daughter. To Raise
makes an effort to contact her, but then eventually stops.

(17:44):
Is at this point that Carol has had it. She's like,
I'm gonna see my daughter and I'm gonna keep being
with women, and that's my final offer. Bangs her table,
damn it. And then the guy's like oh, and then

(18:09):
Carol contexts Raise, and then they meet up and then
it's the same scene we see in the very beginning,
which we weren't really sure what was going on, but
now we get it. Carol asks if Rays wants to
come live with her in her new apartment, and then
Trace is like, no, I don't think so. Carol says,
I love you, and just then they get interrupted and

(18:29):
Terrace goes to a party, and then Carrie Brownstein is
like making eyes at her there and we're like, sure,
why not, okay, and then but then Terray's returns to
the restaurant where Carol is at and then they look
at each other and then they smile, and then they're
going to be together the end. Also, Terres becomes a

(18:50):
photographer at the New York time and and still is
saying nothing, I think is she not just like I think,
like a file. Yeah, I think she's like what they
let girls do back just sitting a room with men
and take notes of what the men said. Yes, she's
got to glow up though it's better. Yeah. Yeah, she's

(19:13):
doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's
take a quick break and then we'll come right back
for the discussion. We're back. Yes, there's so much to
talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to

(19:35):
the two of you and talk about the representation of
queerness and queer women in this movie and how you
felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that.
I well, I should say I love this movie. I
would imaginally love this movie. I think I'm in the
minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like

(19:57):
I have definitely, both online and in person, been mildly
shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do
think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of
King shamed for thinking it's hot, like people have active
you just made it. I saw. I think this movie

(20:18):
is hot. I will defend that later, but yeah, I
think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think
it's a good depiction. I mean it is you know,
it is of a very specific time period. It definitely
has its issues. I think watching it this time, I
think there are two people of color in the entire movie.

(20:39):
They do not speak there in service positions. Uh yeah,
And you know we make the argument like, well it's
that time, and they like of this stature, they wouldn't
they'd only be interacting with white people, and like, yes,
that's true, but also what the fuck? Um? So, yes,
I think this movie has this issues in terms of
queerness specifically. I think it's a great depiction. U I

(21:02):
can talk now about what I perceive. Yeah, I know.
One of the kind of issues that I have with it,
I think, more so with Richard, is that so Terres
is like a blank slate, and so I think for
a lot of it's like people projecting what they like.
When Richard's like I love you, I want to spend
my life with you, it's like, what do you love

(21:22):
about her? Dude? What are you? Act? Question I had
to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownsteen
at the end, she's like, how do you know fil
or something? She said, Well, I assume like everybody here
is fills friends and carry Brownsteen looks a her and goes,
I see why Phil speaks so highly? Yeah, back, why
why why she said words that is a misstep. Yeah,

(21:44):
you're like, what do you see? I was? It's just
Crazy's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's
not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut,
especially for that era stands out in the crowd. But yeah,
I think with Carol, initially, I think it's it's are
a definitely like a physical attraction and like a I
will call it a vibe, which I think in like

(22:06):
that's what you had to go off of, like if
there was any sort of electricity, You're like, I guess
I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never going to
meet anyone ever. Like That's just sort of how it was.
And I do think that Carol Enterrez. I think Carol
does get to know her as a person and does

(22:27):
love her for her. You can argue that the audience
has to do a lot of that work on their
own of like I know, because I can think in
the same thing because like we don't we see those
pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel
and this and the whatever, but like the actual getting,
we don't get to know Tures much less Kate Blanchet, Like,

(22:49):
we don't have any idea why she actually likes her
other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And
I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm not
sure I buy that anyway. Um, their chemistry have seen
much better chemistry. But like, I don't think. I don't
think it's horrible, but I just to me, I'm like,
I can't, I cannot Cate Blanchett is so she has

(23:12):
so much power her character, and she is so well rounded,
and there's just there is so much that she brings
to the table that you're like, why this blank slate
of a person. Well, I think that's part of what
she's attracted to. I think Tres place everything like so
close to the vest. You can argue that there's nothing
underneath the vest if you like, but I prefer to

(23:34):
think of it it's like Carol, that character. Everything is
just out like it is just out there. There's no subtlety,
there's like and Terres is like a mystery or you know,
like she's got and some people are drawn to that,
especially people who are very like spotlight on me all
the time. I do think there's an attraction to people

(23:55):
who are more like like what is she thinking? Which
is a line that she said, She's like, do you
know many times a day I ask you that I
liked I liked her in the book. I don't know.
I mean because Runey Mara, I think it's like thirty
when this movie is filmed or something. But the character
Torres and in the ages, I feel like we're sort

(24:15):
of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors.
But Torres is supposed to be like nineteen or twenty.
She's supposed to be really young, and so I'm like,
who has a personality when they're nineteen and they're you know,
I had a magnetic personality when I was nineteen. Well,
I certainly didn't like I, especially if I was around

(24:35):
like an older person that I was sexually intimidated by
and had a huge question and I don't know, like
I I again, it's like, it's it's weird because I
agree with both of you that it is is a
boring movie, but they were also I I really I
don't know, I like related to her with just there
were moments where her personality, Like she snapped at Richard

(24:59):
constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was
very direct with the people. She wasn't intimidated by people.
She was. She kind of disappeared and I was like, oh,
that's how I was when I was nineteen. Hopefully I
wasn't quite that boring. But there's you know, boring representation
in this movie is high. Well, someone needs to represent

(25:20):
I mean there's not enough of that. There's boring person
eratre and I think this movie does a lot in
that area. But yeah, no, I think with the with
the with people, she's not intimidated by it, specifically men,
because in that scene at night with that guy Danny
in the office, he's like, oh I think like right
before he kisses her and he's like, I think people
are and she's like, I don't think that at all. Right, Yeah,

(25:46):
I mean that's energy, and she like disagrees with him.
She's like, I don't think that. But then yeah, with Carol,
she's very I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do.
But what I was going to say, Nicole is like
in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate

(26:06):
at the l A LGBT Center, and in in doing
that and in seeing in talking to like so many
women who are like just coming out, so especially in
the early nineteen fifties, especially when she's like one whatever,
I think it's like she's not a fully formed person
because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So
I think she literally is a blank slate because there's

(26:28):
this huge part of her like she's getting you guys,
like she's as fuck like she s he's girl, and
she's like it's like she's this girl who hasn't had
any of that developed, so she's coming across as just
like this literally empty vessel. I don't know. It was
really interesting for me to watch this movie having now
met so many women who are just initially coming out

(26:51):
and like coming into themselves, and I was like, oh,
I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is
making a really intelligent character choice, and that's what I've
decided to be. Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes,
I definitely see that read of it, and I hadn't
considered that before, so so thank you. I suppose where

(27:13):
I was coming from it is that to me? Like,
as I said, there wasn't didn't feel like there was
that much chemistry on screen between the two of them,
and I wondered if that had anything to do even
though I think they're both excellent actors like and I
do like Rooney Mara. I do think she's as we said,
social network. We've all seen it, and I do like

(27:34):
her and girl with the dragon tattoo and everything like that.
But um yeah, I found her perhaps two withdrawn in
this movie. But I'm wondering if the lack of chemistry
had to do with them both being straight or at
least married to men. I don't know exactly how Runey
Mara and Kate Blanchett identified, but they're married to men,

(27:54):
So I'm wondering would there have been more chemistry, would
it have been like a hotter let being romp if
they queer women? Well, and potentially I think that that's
that's true, Um, I mean, and who knows, they've never
to my knowledge, have never come out one way or another,
if anybody can correct me on that, But um yeah,

(28:16):
I mean the problem is that, you know, with a
movie like that, or like movie like Disobedience or whatever,
these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that
actually are starring um, queer women, or which I'm called
what was the one this year with your girlfriend girlfriend?
The Favorite, which absolutely loved, Like you need are they

(28:38):
think that you need big star names and there are
just almost no queer females who are at that level
of their career like out at least out. So unfortunately,
until either people start coming out or those queer women
become famous, we're not gonna see are available, but we

(29:00):
are are available and we have chemistry with women. Um,
but yeah, I think um. In terms of going back
to the initial question about like how does this represent
queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of
boxes in that you have like the lesbian ex girlfriend
who is now the best friend, Like that is a

(29:21):
thousand percent a lesbian truth, just like you break up
and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now.
And that's so immediately I was like, can do you
drive my current girlfriend across the country? She's like sure, fine,
incredible accommodating. Yeah, Like it's just exactly so I was like, no, okay,

(29:43):
um that and also, um, the sad reality of you know,
going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara,
the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first
girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing
but that woman, are and wrote down. When I watched
it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was,
this is going to sound very medicines Like the Bechtel

(30:05):
test is sort of a lesbian test. But if there was, like, uh,
like a Bechtel test I somehow existed for just women
in a just woman world and was really for lesbians,
she would fail it. I did because she because her
entire existence is about Carol. Granted the name of the
movie is Carol. Fine, we can, we can say that

(30:25):
this is a story, but like everything else just feels
so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't even I don't
believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be
honest with you, like, I don't. I just don't believe it.
And it's like her whole everything is Carol, and she
just like, okay, whatever you say, you know, I just
I don't know anything really about her outside of that.

(30:46):
So I was like, wow, if she were a guy,
this would fail so so hard, and be so stereotypical,
but I hate to say it that like a lot
of first girlfriend's situations are that way. So yeah, So
I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that
she talked about her photography career I thought was always
I mean, because she is kind of a very passive

(31:07):
character in some ways that I thought were like made
sense with the character and otherwise where I'm like no, what, no,
stand up for yourself a little bit, where like anytime
someone would bring up her photography should be like, I'm horrible,
I'm not good, I don't have the camera. I've never
done it before, and it was just like you've been
doing it for years, like please, It's like if we
like I've like, actually i've only done one open mic,

(31:29):
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm and then I
just like buried myself alive her moments where I'm just like,
you've done this before, Relax, It's fine. Yeah. I had
a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett. She was asked,
I think it was last year maybe in about um
straight actors playing characters because it is like such a

(31:50):
conversation that you know it's out there, and she she
gave like a pretty direct answer, and when asked about
Carol directly, she said, quote, I will fight to the
death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles
beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement
on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I
just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that.

(32:14):
I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest,
and that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some
spheres right now, Um, I don't. I don't disagree with it.
I think that there are limits to that, obviously, when
we're talking about like playing a different race or something
where especially when the when the role is written specifically

(32:34):
with a certain race in mind and has cultural references,
et cetera. That is a line obviously, but something like
with the queer characters. I just the problem is that
you can take this argument that people are making to
an extreme, so that actors are only ever allowed to
play what their experience is, and then what is acting?

(32:56):
You know, I think like and we can see that
being taken to that place by certain people and casting
and producers and stuff right now. Anyway, that said, I
understand trying to balance it so that you are getting
actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before.

(33:19):
Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor
for so long, and when you have only you know,
straight people playing gay roles, people go, what what about
all of our queer actors? You know? And then queer
actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play
straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one

(33:39):
can see them as anything else but gay. But when
a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well yeah, yeah,
Like so that's that's where that is problematic and where
people need something needs to shift so that actors can
just be actors. You know. I think I'm still processing
my feelings on this and have been for like probably

(34:02):
a year now because it's come so much into the
forefront with people like Scarlett Johanson and the issue, and
I think I fall way more on the side of like, hey,
let's not do that in terms of CIS actors playing
trans characters. That to me does feel more black and white,
where it's like, hey, let's stop doing that. But then
but then that has forced me to be like, Okay, Lauren,

(34:23):
if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate
to you know, straight actors playing career actors. And ultimately,
I think I do lean more towards what Nicola is saying,
where it's like, no, that feels like a different it's
the same. Maybe it's the same, like ballpark, but it's
like a different look. I don't know baseball. It's like
right field, like it's a different part Funday night Light. Uh. Yeah.

(34:52):
And also like I never want Rachel Vice to stop
playing queer characters, like please God, So I can never
firmly come down the side that I think for something
like Bad Woman, like let's all fucking support like the
fact that they actively look to cast a queer female,
like let's all support the funk out of that show.
And like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But

(35:13):
I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get
more of that. But I don't think it should be
an exclusive, should be a requirement. Yeah, I agree that
it becomes very very difficult not to mention that casting
starts to become extremely difficult. Well right now you literally
can't do it, Like what is Kristin Stewart gonna literally
play every fucking please, God, no you speaking of cardboard?

(35:38):
I just you can't do it right that. Actually it's funny.
I thought of Kristin Stewart several times while watching in
this movie because I was like, this must be the
thing that everybody is like, well, she's there's a mystique.
I'm like, oh, God, like give me personality. Mystique can
really I don't know, do youk is the only thing

(36:01):
boring people have? There's so many. Have you ever had
like an experience like that with someone where you're just like,
I don't know what are they all about? Like what's
going on? And then we get to know them, You're like, oh,
they just they're bored. I think maybe I'm a runey
mari apologist because I think I think I fall for
that a lot. I think I'm in the traditionally in
the past, I'm working on all of this in therapy,

(36:23):
you guys taking care of it. But I think I
have been guilty of the like, oh that girl is mysterious,
and I'm like you got to know, and you're like,
oh that girl is boring. So maybe I relate. I
feel like it goes one of two ways. You you're
mystique because you're either boring or you're fucked up. It's
like one, yeah, what a fun journey every time, or

(36:44):
or the strangers sucked up and yet still boring. I
don't see more of that. Yeah, we're all my fund
up boring people at I might be one of them.
I don't know. Um, we need to take another quick break,
but we will be right back and we're back. Uh.

(37:07):
Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about
the back story of this. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk
Patricia high Smith while we're at it. Let I did
not know that much. I knew, I knew her name,
and I knew I did not know she had written
this book, which was originally called The Price of Salt

(37:28):
Um came out in ninety two. But I knew her
as the writer of the talented Mr Ripley. She was
like famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she
also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's
a fascinating, complicated dare is a problematic yes? Um? Yeah,

(37:51):
So she wrote this The Price of Sault under a
pseudonym Claire Morrigan two and then it was republished thirty
eight years later as Carol under Patricia Highsmith's own name,
and then it was adapted into the film Carol that
we now know and are talking about, Um, bye bye,
and the woman who adopted it, Phyllis n G. I

(38:12):
think is as Yeah, I don't know how to say
her last name, but that the woman who adapted the
screenplay knew Patricia high Smith, and I think like the
last ten years of her life, um, which I think
is like kind of like a rare, rare success. Uh
and adaptation. But anyways, back to Patricia, Yes, Carol. Screenwriter

(38:33):
Phyllis something like that described high Smith as a lesbian
who did not very much enjoy being around other women. Um.
And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning
how high Smith was described and considered. Um, she seemed
to be a misogynist. She did not like other women.

(38:56):
She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because
she enjoyed their company more her whole. I mean, there's
a lot of going. Well, the internalized misogyny is strong
with this one. Yeah. She was compared to being a
movie studio boss who would chase Starlett's speaking of This

(39:18):
movie was produced by the Weinstein Company. The first frame
you're like, she was also pretty racist. She was very
racist anti Semitic. So the problem, there's a lot of
problems like her. Uh the yeah that she was described

(39:40):
as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote, and
then there are a few people that are like she
was actually you know, like she struggled with a lot
of depression. There was a lot of mental illness going
on as well that seemed to get worse as she
grew older. A very complicated person. One thing I found
out about her that I just want to with the

(40:00):
class is that she had three hundred snails. Okay, so
she had three hundred snails and one time she went
to a party with a huge handbag full of one
hundred snails eating lettuce. And if I read that, I
was like that could so you like, did you ever

(40:22):
read an anecdote where you're like, that could be me
in forty years easily? Easily? I mean you had those leeches.
I was like, she just like brought her snails out.
There's your expression. You lead with your crazy. If you
can't handle me with my hundreds in the bag, you

(40:43):
don't deserve me. I mean, that's the lesbian trope. Though, right,
just bringing a bunch of snails, the snails in a
bag thing, true. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just
it is fucking why it it's there like she's racist,
she's misogynist. She wrote the first like lesbian novel ever,

(41:07):
and she has three hundred snails and you're just like,
what is I read it that she wrote the first
lesbian novel with a happy ending Yes sorry I should
have oh yeah, which I was definitely gonna comment on that. Actually,
how like it's a funny thing because throughout launching the
movie again and with an eye for Bechtel test kind

(41:29):
of stuff, I couldn't help but feel because it's true
that even though it is to the repeatedly two women
in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue
about things that aren't about a man, um so it
clearly passes the presence of a man. A man specifically
like looms over everything to the point where there are like,

(41:52):
with the exception of the last moment of the movie,
there are no enjoyable moments. It's like there's no moment
where you really can just let go. Even the even
the score does that right when they're having sex, it's
like like big like like scary, sort of like ominous
sounding music, you know which, So there's this cloud over everything,

(42:14):
and it definitely, um, that's sort of unfortunate trope of
of queer cinema or queer content where like they have
sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens.
I did like that they balked that a little bit
in the in the sense that they still had sex
again that night, so it was a little bit of
an f you. But then she leaves again the next day,

(42:35):
so it's like until that last moment, the presence of
a man is hanging over every single thing that happens.
And granted that is the time period, but I do
think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic,
but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well,
I don't know, I don't want to be a queer

(42:55):
person like that, like that's a it's a it's a
difficult old queer story. Yeah, well I was going to
say that, Um, yes, I guess this movie technically has
a happy ending because we're to understand that they end
up together, but at such a huge cost, where Carol
has to sacrifice so much her dadaughter, so I mean,

(43:17):
it's it's not that happy. Especially, I mean, we see
how much she loves her daughter, and then she has
to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter,
which is to see. I thought that was like, I
thought that she was calling a stop tall. I thought,
like the compromise that she offers is like, I can't
go against my own grant. I'm going to live my
life like I am insisting on visitation. But then she

(43:40):
only saw her daughter like once or twice. Yeah, but
that but my understanding is at the court or what not,
the court hearing whatever, with the stenographer, whatever the hell
that Yes, I thought that that happened like days before
she sees to rest. Oh, I guess we don't know
how much time has passed. I don't think so, because

(44:01):
they're already selling the house. She already has an apartment
and a job. Didn't happen in a couple of days.
This has been a couple of months usually. I also,
I think I was because I read about Patricia Highsmith
before I watched the movie all the way through, and
it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's
life that are included in this movie because she was

(44:23):
a Bloomingdale's girl, and and she was in therapy for
many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that
she very much wanted to work. So I that was
how I read it, But I think that was just
because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia
Highsmith of like, they frame her sexuality as basically a

(44:45):
mental illness, and then you see her in therapy and like, oh,
that doesn't seem good, but so not specific, I don't.
I guess what I really like about this movie is
that both characters, both Terres and Carol, are like unapologetic
about their sexuality and they're not keeping it a secret
from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows

(45:09):
about her crush on Carol. Harge knows also Hard what
is that name? Hard Arch the whole first time I
saw also what is that name? Though? But um, so
Harge knows about Carol, And yes, at the end, she
says like, I'm not going to go my grain. Here's
my final offer. I want visitation rights. But yeah, I

(45:29):
mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter, hard soul custody,
and so we know that Hard just like a dysfunctional alcoholic.
So her daughter is not better off because we see
Carol it. You know, she's a great mom and she
loves her daughter, and she brusses her hair so much.

(45:50):
I was just like, if you have to clean up
your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is
going bold but hey, baldest woman in charge, true grendy
will someday be in charge. Um. But yeah, so, I
mean it makes me appreciate the era that we live
in now, which is still not great. But at least,

(46:12):
you know, homosexual audio isn't considered a mental illness anymore,
you know all that. So I like that they're unapologetic
about their sexuality, but it still comes at at a
great cost, especially for Carol and her daughter, So it does.
And yeah, so it is hard to feel happy. I
didn't feel happy at the end of that movie. That's

(46:32):
for sure. It's not very uplifting. It's just not. But yeah,
I also, I mean, and again part of this goes
back like I will, I've promised I will cease and
desists soon on this point. But like I also look
at it into my for that girl, like a like
for her. I mean, like I look at you know,

(46:53):
the relationship with Abby, I totally understand, like that that
friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for
that relationship I really get. And sacrificing just for who
you are, regardless of who you're with or if you're
with anybody, I totally get. But like for that girl also,

(47:13):
And I just have to say this because this is
sadly on on brand for lesbians. Um, but the like, oh,
we went on a two week trip together and then
we didn't speak and now do you want to move in?
Is like such a lesbian and that's just like normal.
Oh god, well Carol, so much like I remember the

(47:34):
first time that I saw this in the theaters, I
remember being so cringe e about how like that first
scene where they have food and she's like, would you
like to visit me this Sunday? Like it's like, what
are you doing? You just learned you just asked her
first name like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely there's

(47:54):
a lot of cringe worthy lesbian stereotype. I didn't feel
as predator worry is sort of like the predatory romance
that you see in like Debs, but there's still like
a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them
where Carol is much wealthier, she is older, and she's
more sexually experienced. And then she and and also in

(48:19):
in this movie, and this was like an adaptation change
that I when I like figured out that had been changed,
I was like, Oh, I don't really like that they
made her a virgin in this She not in the book. No,
she had been having said she had been having unfifilling
sex with Richard, and like there was more context for it. Yeah,

(48:41):
And then I feel like they almost do that character
kind of a disservice by being like, you know, she's
just floating around like I don't know, and it's not
a Madonna horror thing, but that choice is just sort
of indicative of like washing that character and making her
even you know, because it's like if she not saying that,
if you're a virgin, you don't have any life experience,

(49:01):
but it just having that character have some experience going
into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable
with the relationship happening, because you're like, the power dynamics
are a little off, and I mean we're sort of
led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times,
even though she still has her own apartment in granted village,

(49:22):
but she's a shop girl. She's young, she can't really
afford to pursue her passion. Like she's in a very
very different position as Carol. And and I don't know,
I was trying to picture movies with I mean, there's
a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a
man who's much older wooing a much younger woman, and

(49:45):
this is not that movie, but there are elements of
that where it's like that should have been a discussion.
And I feel like Abbey is the only one who
really brings it up. Is like she's so like she
is the most grounded, like she's fucking great. But I
will say with Carol Terrez, because I did watch it
through a twenty nineteen lens, it's like a hundred as

(50:08):
far as I could tell, it's fully consent based, like
she she's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without
being like is this okay? Would you like to do this?
Like blah blah blah. And with the sex scene, it's
like Terres is the one who's like taking and it's
like never implied that they would have any reason to

(50:29):
feel unsafe around each other too, which is like makes
a huge difference. And as far as I could tell,
Carol never holds anything over to res in terms of like,
well I have more money than you, or I'm like
like she never like uses that like the imbalance of
power to her advantage. As far as I could it
just kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists, right,

(50:53):
I don't know. It would just be nice to see
more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it
wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice
to see a movie about two queer women where no
one has to make a huge sacrifice. You know. It
would be nice to see more queer women of color.

(51:15):
It would be nice to see more you know, trans
and non binary people in mainstream movie. And I think
that I've see people asking for a lot on on
queer Twitter, as it were, is like, hey, can we
get more movies where both women are already out and
that's not like realizing or comic terms is not an
element of the plot um And I think that would

(51:36):
be great that please. Indeed, I wanted to talk about how,
just briefly about how the men are kind of presenting
in this movie because each and every single male character
who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible.
Eric I kind of appreciated how the worst they were.

(51:58):
I mean there was I don't know, yeah, what did
everyone think about the men? I just I was just like, yeah, fine,
Mr Football is mad. He what he's like often drunk,
He's usually full of rage and jealousy. He's very spiteful
when it comes to a bunch drunkenly following I think
one of the things and I and I am obviously

(52:21):
the minority in those, but I really like Kyle Chandler
as a writer. And I also loved Friday. It's like, yes,
it's so good if if anybody hasn't seen it water
and like I hate football, So it's not it's not
about that anyway, but partly where I think like the
disservice to the men in this movie, and also just

(52:43):
honestly the story in this movie is that we don't
get to see even a flashback and even in anything,
any part of Carol and Harje's relationships, so like it
is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people
being together other than they're both wealthy and good looking.
I guess, like I mean, really, it's very difficult to

(53:04):
imagine it because we see so little of any of
the love left between them, and I don't know I
would have liked to see because she says, like her
big last line is she's leaving that meeting or with
the loyal like the best best scene in the movie,
I think, but the exact perfect. She's so good, but

(53:27):
like she says something, you know, uh, then it will
get ugly or it'll get ugly and we're not ugly
people or something like that. It's like it's some something
along those lines, and I guess I just wanted to
be like, wow, I would have really liked to see
him not being ugly then at some point or and
like some semblance of like real good guy nous about

(53:48):
him that I can imagine, he asked, but isn't there
because you can see his face and he seems to
be coming to an understanding or he he seems to
be like, you're right, Carol, like but that's not who
he understood him to be previously he was completely like bullheaded,
and I kind of do I have sort of have
a different take again, Carol Apologist over here. But I well,

(54:10):
what I love about all the men in this movie
is they're like so oh fish, which to me is
like hilarious, like they all fall down and something like um.
But I and I'm framing it in that era. I
don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick,
But I don't think either of those guys are like

(54:30):
super bad guys, Like I think this is a guy who,
like his wife, has had at least one affair that
he knows about, Like this is a guy he never
I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would
have gone like a smack or like a puncher, because
it's the guys drunk and I remember watching it originally
that's where I thought that was going. But he's the

(54:51):
one who falls down, like he's definitely too handsome with her,
But I don't. I think he is shown to be
like this old fish, bumbling like this isn't how this
is supposed to work kind of guy. But I don't
think he's evil, even Richard. I don't think it is
like terrible, Like I love that line where he's like
you made me buy tickets, Like he's this dude it's like,

(55:13):
what the fuck, Like we were thick the moment that
I did really like, I was like, oh that she
kind of did him dirty on that one where he
was yeah, because she she's been saving up money to
go on vacation with him, and she's like, actually, I
just met this really kind of suck, like I do. Actually,
And I I often am the one who's feeling bad

(55:36):
for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think,
especially in lesbian films, they get like the short end
of the stick and are shown to be just like
these like bumbling idiot oaths like whatever. And I'm like,
and especially as like the resident bisexual in the room,
I'm like, come on, not all guys are like yeah,
like like this, you know, and it actually And I

(56:00):
also think that stories are more interesting when you have
more realistic portrayals of characters, so that people aren't painted
as just bad or good and there is a little
bit more ambiguity, because it makes it more difficult for
the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing
with two good people versus one good and one bad.
You know. Um, So I think that they could have
done a little bit better of a job with the

(56:22):
men in this making them slightly more multidimensional. The one
guy who I really liked, the guy with the accent
who like, yeah, the one who tries to Danny's like
the one, but of course because he's like the film kid,
you know what I mean, like production, I don't think
we see enough that really exists in real life where

(56:44):
it's like the guy who's into the girl and like
tries to kiss her, and then it's like, oh my bad,
you're queer, you're not into it, Like no, I'm going
to be your best friend and help you paint your partner.
And he's just like so chilling cool, and he's like,
I think you really liked this lady, and she's like, no,
I don't. And if he's like come on, girl, he's
like a really good dad. But also he knew that

(57:06):
she had a boyfriend, Richard at the time and tried
to kiss her. Yeah, he's he's shy friends and to
like yeah, but I think once he realizes, like, and
that's a problem in and of itself, he should treat
her like a person, even if she's straight and not
into him. But at least once that guy realizes like, oh,
she's not into it. He's not like but I forever

(57:29):
Like he's like he helps her get a job at
the time, Yeah, yeah, he's he does come through for
her quite a bit, that he should have tried to
kiss her appropriately fair. I even afterwards was like, wait,
does she have a boyfriend? Because she makes so like
blase and noncommittal about Richard that like he probably is

(57:49):
like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the
audience member, was like, are they even dating? Richard? Thinking
that they're dating, which totally happened, you know, yeah, yeah,
were You're just like are you I don't Yeah. Something

(58:09):
about the Harsh character that I think that that, again
was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I
can tell, in the book, he has mentioned, but he's
barely in it. He's not a main character at all.
So he his character's part was really beefed up for
the movie. And I mean, it's it's weird. It's kind
of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the

(58:32):
fact he's not like a monster out right. But I don't, like,
I don't understand why as much as I love Mr
Football's pratfalls and being like why you not love me
no more? Like being pissed and litigious whatever male villain
tropes are employed there. I like you very if you're
gonna like beef up that part and you want to

(58:54):
make it like a nuance complicated movie, show that he's heartbroken,
show that he's confused, like show that he doesn't like
in less of a broad strokes way, because that almost
felt like out of step with what the movie was
trying to do with different relationships, where like Caroline Abbey's
friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool, and like

(59:15):
most of the ways that people relate in this movie
seemed to be going for that subtlety. But it's weird,
like hardest character is like kind of broad for this
movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband, And I mean,
I don't even know where I fall on it, because
I'm like, I mean, I just if they were going
to use him on screen that much, I wish it
had been in a way that was a little more

(59:37):
nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming
a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree with, especially if she's
going to suggest at the end that that's not who
he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying
Nichols is like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah,
And I mean, like I get the it seems as
though what they were going for maybe um with the

(01:00:00):
men in these women's lives, right, So, Richard and Hard
is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry, like
and that is how they deal with being heartbroken is
through anger and not vulnerability. I mean because like he shows,
Hard shows up at Abbey's and like when he has
nothing left to say, when Abbey's like stone walled him

(01:00:21):
and been like she's not here, and he's like, but
I love her, and she's like, I can't help you
with that. And I think that those simple two lines
say everything about the men in this movie in so
many ways, where it's like it is not the women's
responsibility to cater to the men's feelings, you know, like

(01:00:42):
you guys have fallen in love of your own accord.
Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't, and we
can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong
and have hurt you, but also then like it's up
to you to be a big boy and take care
of yourself without being destructive. And I think both of
those men are coming from a point of view where
they're like if A, then B. They're like, well, if

(01:01:03):
I love you, then that you must like those guys
gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. And I mean,
in the nineteen fifties speak about an era where men
did not know how to process their feelings, like we're
not encouraged to. I mean, that's not even their fault entirely,
you know, they were not That was weakness. So yeah, iusly,

(01:01:26):
I wish it were a little clearer that. Like in
the book, it seems like it's clearer that the whatever villain,
if there is a villain of this story, is the
culture that they're living in. It doesn't allow them to
be here they are. But in this movie, I feel
like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's
the guys. That's a great point. It's such an insular movie.
It's one of those movies where it's like is this
a stage flight where it's just like you don't really

(01:01:47):
get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like,
that's my ride, I got to ride a giant drama.
Like everything that we're saying about, oh at that time,
it's just because we know that, Like you don't see
a lot of like the outside world pressuring this and
that it's like we're inferring that because all of us

(01:02:10):
know what it was like to be queer in ninety
But you're right that it's it is one of those
super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters
we're seeing and there's not a lot of like different
people running around being like I don't like Wars and
then they just like cross the street and we never
see him again. People just did that same players talking
about how they don't like Career Evil. Um, it is

(01:02:32):
basically just like it's a it's a close knit sort
of film. So everything that that we've been saying about,
like oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really
shown that. We just we know that or we hear
also like everybody in this film has extremely fine tuned gaitar,
which I like don't understand. I mean, Richard, like Richard

(01:02:57):
has really no reason to believe that Terres has a
rush on Carol, but he like picks it up on
it right away, says it like it's not a thing,
you know, like it is. It is very weird. And
then like like every random lesbian the trees runs into
is like staring at her from across the room because
they're all like I smell you, like like random, oh

(01:03:21):
my god, I know they clogged her, like yeah yeah.
And also everybody who has gaydar just stairs like is
like just blatantly there that's my move. But I mean
it's it is a little bit. It's a little silly
and on the nose obviously, but also because like there
was a whole code. It was like the handkerchief road
I think yeah for gay men where you would like

(01:03:43):
wear a certain color handkerchief in your back pocket to
show the a you were queer, but like be what
like type of queer you are and what you were
into so other men could pick up on it. So
it's like guys, like, if gaydar were really as good
as it's shown in Carol, no one would have needed
the handkerchief coat. It's just it was a little we're
gonna have to develop it them because they're clothes don't

(01:04:05):
have pockets that the glass ceiling. It was like, we
simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed
on women. Did you ever have this, uh that system
in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet
you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were
a virgin or not. That was a big thing I
heard about that. I feel like that was I thought

(01:04:26):
that was like an urban legend, but maybe not like
that was a news story where they're like, they're called
bracelets kids. There was I would wear. I would wear
a red bracelet my software, which you should never wear
the braislet that means you're a virgin. But I didn't
wear that. And then I, even when I was still

(01:04:46):
a virgin, I swapped it out because I'm like and
then every day I would look at my bracelet and
be like, wow, that's so intensive. There was. There was
an intense bracest when I was in high school. I uh,
the cartilage of my right ear pierce and everyone's like,
if you get your right your pierce, that means you're gay.
And that's like what, I've never heard that before. But

(01:05:08):
I also didn't care. I was like, I don't give
a funk what people think my sexuality is. But um, yes,
there's been codes. I guess what I enjoyed about this
movie because a lot of the the tension does end
up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in
terms of like society hate square people in this movie

(01:05:29):
that we see the tension then derives from largely the
male characters in the movie and the fact that they're
I mean, and this is not to say that all
men are horrible, but since most movies are about how
awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and
also movies where men are the focus, if there is

(01:05:51):
a female character, she's often presented as an obstacle in
some way, much of the way men are presented as
obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice
to see that switch, sure, but I like, yeah, I
don't know. It's like, at the end of I'm just
going to be split on on this because in one way,
I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just

(01:06:12):
be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere and most
people are actually really chill. But it's also like, I
I don't dislike the man Haiti tropes that are employed
by this movie through those characters because you're like, well,
you don't really get to see them very much. So yeah,
I think for me, I wrote, at times it's fun

(01:06:34):
and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men
constantly barking up the wrong treeze in this movie that
way generally generally, even like that's it is that you
go back and forth and be like, ha, that's funny
to be like, I don't feel good. Richard especially is
such a dufe Like that part where Carol is picking

(01:06:55):
up Terres and Richard's all like, Richard, hard not to
meet you, and and Carols like, oh, speaks very highly
of you, and he's like, oh, well that's swell, and
he's immediately like talking about a beard. Yeah, he is
the guy from Obvious Child too, Yeah, like obscured by

(01:07:17):
a hat. For most of time, that's all I can
see in those is like that, and the guy from Girls,
and I'm like perfect casting truly, Yeah, he's peaked casting. Yeah.
Here's something we don't often see is women eating in
a movie which we see women eat quite a bit,
and we also see women driving in a way that

(01:07:39):
it's not like them, like I just accidentally got on
the freeway and I'm gonna crash, So I think it's
not like correct exactly. This movie normalizes period peace, that's right. Yeah,
So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my
hot take. Another point I saw being made about this.

(01:08:00):
It was like the cinematography, which we've I mean, it
is so beautiful that you're sleeping, but the like absence
of perceived male gaze this movie, which is funny because
it's the cinematographer is a man. As the director, Yeah,
Edward Edward Lachman, who has a pretty stellar record of

(01:08:23):
removing or at least I don't know, compartmentalizing the male
gaze for the movies he's worked on. He also did
the He did other Todd Haynes movies. He did Far
from Heaven Um, he did the Virgin Suicides. He did
a bunch of like very female focused movies that concerned
like women's bodies. And I don't know, I mean did that.
I mean that worked for me. I thought it was

(01:08:44):
very There is nothing that I felt was like objectifying
or like overly you know, like sexualizing women. You know,
we see the sex scene, but it felt very tastefully done. Yeah,
I loved it. And you know how you were saying, like, oh,
you see in the car, like the random shot of
the steering wheel or like that kind of thing. I
think and again I haven't read the book, but I
know that the book it's based on is it's the

(01:09:07):
third person, but it's all from her as this point
of view, and I think that this movie is like
shot almost entirely. Certainly any scenes she's in I read
as her point of view, which is why I think
it's like you get these little chunks of like she's
looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchet's mouth,
Like she's looking at her lips, or she's looking at
her hand. Are these things which to me I read

(01:09:27):
as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her.
But yeah, I thought it did a great job as
being like, this is what this woman's experience is, and
you're seeing like little glimpses of it. And the color
palette was really reflective of that too, because it was
largely red and green, which also was helpful because it
was around Christmas time, so you had that, but it

(01:09:48):
was like red, green and gold sometimes as well, but
like red and green were primary, and Cate blanche it
was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly
in the first half of the movie when like Ruoney
mar Is discovering her um and then like Abby and
Rooney Mara and and then sometimes Cape Blanchet two are
often wearing green or are are framed in green. So

(01:10:11):
for you know whatever, more of like what is it
like a obsession or there's like but there's a danger
Green is also a danger color, yeah, to which I
think was pretty cool. Like when you see Abby pull
up and she's got the green on, and you're like, oh,
danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous
part of Cape Blanchet's life. Yeah, So yeah, anyway, hopefully,

(01:10:33):
but I mean, yeah, the lack of male gay is
from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes,
but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director.
He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement
that emerged in the early nineties. Um, the screenwriter is
a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women,
also Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops, but when you have

(01:10:59):
a movie that's coming largely from either a female or
queer perspective or both, we're not surprised that it's handled
a bit better. And and then adapting from from a
book that was also written by a queer woman, where like,
we have so many examples I always like jumped straight
to carry of, like, why is this like very famous

(01:11:21):
movie depicting women so poorly? It's oh, because uh straight
man was writing about teenage girls, and that was adapted
by uh screenwriter who is a straight man writing about
teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man
leering at teenage girls, And that's why it's fucked up
like this, this movie manages to more or less avoid

(01:11:42):
most of that. And and then I think sort of
with the cinematography, they it's like if you had to
choose male cinematographer, I mean I would personally be like, oh,
wouldn't it have been great if there was a female
cinematoxxer in this um or a queer female cinematographer. But
if if there had to be a man, this seems
like this was the man for that job. So that's

(01:12:03):
how I felt about the director too. Yeah. Yeah, And
it also took so long for this movie to get made.
It took twenty almost twenty years. Yeah, the film rights
were required in it had been in development since nine
seven was the first Titanic years I know. And instead
they're released in the Daddy's Home Year, so that yeah,

(01:12:27):
I mean, it took so long to get the movie
funded properly, to get the right names attached, and just too,
I think, just the matter of waiting it for it
to seem like a quote unquote safe movie to have
a fairly wide release, and so you know, it's it's
impressive that it ended up the way it did and
that it happened at all. I mean, that's eighteen years

(01:12:49):
waiting to make a queer like, it's crazy. I read
on IMDb that at some point it was like they
were maybe going to try to do it like in
the nineties sixties and who not Rita Hayworth, Like someone
was attached, but that was gonna be a huge thing.
And then I read and this sounds like a sketch,
but I read that a treatment was written where the
name and gender were changed and it was Carl and

(01:13:11):
it was and I was like, because kin edit IMDb.
So I was like, I need to do more research
on this, but I want to believe that happened, because
that fucking table that it would have been turned into
a gay mail story or a heater and it was
just like a treatment that was written and like this

(01:13:32):
and it never went But I'm like, how did someone
spent time? What would that story even be? And if
Carols boring would have been unwatchable. But that ex told
me when I read that, I honestly I believe I
believe it. I thought it's true. I want to be

(01:13:56):
the internew had to write coverage on the treadman of
carl Or or the man that had to confidently pitch
it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love
what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Coral.
She just throws the snail at him. It's like, get
out of my office. One of them as well, Hey,

(01:14:19):
do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not?
What does? Very much? I don't think there's a single
scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was.
I was half paying attention for that. So there's scenes
with multiple men in the room, but there's always, at
least I think there's always a woman involved. Yeah, and

(01:14:41):
then yeah, there's a lot of different combinations of characters
talking the past, the test between Caroline Tarez, between Caroline Abbey,
Abbey and Tarez, So yeah, you see a lot of
different combinations of lots of options for scene study class indeed,
because that's like what the Bectel test means to me
in my life. It's like going back to college and

(01:15:02):
being like, why can't have found any scenes with two
girls to work on? And you're like, because acting school
is you know women. Anyway, it's great, we have to
use the three guys over and over and over again
in class because there are no scenes for all of us.
This is also another fairly rare example of a movie

(01:15:23):
that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not
familiar with that, what that is, listeners. It is a
test that requires that a film must contain a character
who is identifiably lgbt Q. Plus the character must not
solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or

(01:15:44):
gender identity. So, in other words, they need to be
made up of the same sort of like unique character
traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from
one another. And Cape Blanchet right, photographer, she's a photographer, uh,
And the queer character must be tied into the plot
in such a way that their removal from the story

(01:16:04):
would have a significant impact. So basically they just matter. God,
although I do, I mean Nicole. I think that it
was really interesting that how like there is no Bectel
like or Bechtel Wallace test for queer women, that she
is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is

(01:16:28):
very first relationship e and like, you know, just thinking
about anyone's first relationship is cringe e U. But that
that is like a good like they I'm glad that
they're like, oh, she also has you know, like she
has this aspiration. She will not advocate for herself for it,
and she's not very good, but you know she's she's
going for it, getting better, she's better. But it's also

(01:16:55):
like the one moment where I really were I was like,
I'll funk all this, like when I because because I
was like, because I in my head, I was like,
well I did give her photography, I guess, even though
she seems only mildly passionate about it. Um Like the
one moment where it really all came crashing down is
when what's his name, her friend Danny is helping her
paint and he's like, you really should do a show
and says it twice, and she's not only like oh no,

(01:17:17):
you know I'm not really good. She's like no, and
you're like, why are you so Like she's like I
don't want to know, and you're like, okay, so I
guess you don't care that it happens off screen, but
at some point she does, you know, but it happens.
She's also just painting. Did you guys noticed that one?

(01:17:42):
You've never you know, sweetheart, It's so funny to see
actor like actors betray their richness on screen and just like,
that's what are you doing? Yes? Anyways, I I do
agree that, like, definitely one care during this movie is
more defined by a romantic relationship than Yes, let's write

(01:18:07):
the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples.
Based on its portrayal and treatment of women, I think
I'm going to give it a four. It's nice that
you have a story about queer women. They are certainly
the focus, they are driving the narrative. The one character,
as we've discussed, is not that well defined and characterized,

(01:18:32):
but you know, it's it's still better than most of
the female characters we see in any given movie. So
there's that. Um, it is such a white movie. It
is extraordinarily white, and it does take place in New
York for most of it, so there's really not And
it's like, I it always drives us anytime New York

(01:18:55):
is in a movie and everyone in New York is white,
and then people are like it's a buried piece. You're
just like, no, you're a director, you're a writer, like
you could you can include people. Especially when she's at
that party at like her friend Phil's Plight. I was
watching the people on the street walking by, was like,
is one of them not going to be? And I
was like, they're the party And then also at the

(01:19:17):
Bloomingdale's type place too, like why not. Yeah, there aren't
that many crowd scenes, but the ones that are still
almost entirely white people, there could have been opportunity, Yes, definitely.
So yeah, it's it could have been better representation wise,
but it's a step in the right direction. You know,

(01:19:39):
we talked about how few mainstream movies there are about
queer people, and you know, hopefully this at least in
some way helped pave the way for more to be
seen down the road, because the more we see, the
more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving. Four.

(01:20:00):
So I'm gonna say, four nipples, and I will give
two to Kate Blanchet. I will give to to Rooney
Mar's performance in another movie. Yeah yeah, all right, great, Wow,
So I do truly like her. I'm so on the

(01:20:25):
fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go
with four, uh for for many of the same reasons.
I mean, it's just it is in spite of sort
of the the stuff that we've unpacked as being either
like a little off or just straight up confusing, it
is I think, you know, it's generally great that this
movie because especially and this is like something we didn't
we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan

(01:20:47):
base of this movie has grown so much since it's
been available on Netflix. And I was there was like
a long piece reported in Them a couple of months
ago about the huge young fan base that Carol has
built um since being on Netflix. And just not only
is like representation important important, but like accessibility uh two,

(01:21:11):
movies like this are so important because this is an
art house movie and you know, mostly the majority of
people at this table did not see it, uh in
in small you know, movie theaters. In so the fact
that it's available to young people and too. I mean
to everyone, Um, if if you have you know, your

(01:21:32):
excess Netflix password is a really cool thing. And and
so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it's uh,
it exists, and that it's accessible, and that it, for
the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by
the right people. So I'll go for as well. I'll
give to to Kate Blanchett. I'm gonna give my other

(01:21:54):
two to Abby. Oh yeah, yeah, I would say four
is well. I mean my my issues with Rooney Mara. No,
I'm gonna three. I don't even get name and dropped
it because I started thinking about it more and I

(01:22:15):
was like, I can't can't. Um, yeah, I mean to
definitely the Cate Blanchet always maybe all three no, but
one to one to Abby. Um. And I agree with
everything that that you guys have said. I don't even
have much more to add. Um. I just simply wish
that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank
slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that

(01:22:38):
she's attracted to. So that's all I love this movie.
I'm not awesome at Separate. I'm not the best of
being objective when I really love something, and I recognize
that about myself. I feel like going into this, I
maybe would have said four and a half, but I
after hearing all this, I am going to say for
I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character.

(01:22:59):
May be reading it in terms of like coming into
contact with so many women who are first coming out.
I was looking at it through that kind of a
lens and being like, oh, I bet if we saw
this character a year from now, like she would be
more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that
is that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff, and
I respect that. Um. When I love this movie and

(01:23:22):
I do think it's super hot, and I will not
apologize for that, I will give my nipples. I will
give one to Cape Blanchet, one to Ruoney Mara, and then,
even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving to
to racial Advice just because she was my girlfriend and
I love her just because her presence is leaning over

(01:23:43):
our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples.
We'll have to get the both of you back on
to do the favorite. I love like, I love, love,
love love love that movie just really quick I think
you know and I know that we have all had
different takes on Mr Football in this movie. Consider Alfred

(01:24:06):
Molina in that part playing Cape Lunch's husband. I'm horny.
Although maybe they just needed them to not have as
much chemistry and so that's why Alfred Millina couldn't do it.
Probably the chart with everyone sure, how many nipples does
three D snails have? Oh god, let me look, okay,
do zero? Just because there were no nipples besides hers

(01:24:30):
ever in that apartment? Like it feels like with three
hundred snails, Like snails do not have nipples. So I
can tell you that, anybody, how do you get a
girl back to you? The keys in the door? You're like, oh,
one one thing before I should tell you? The Google
results for do snails have nipples? Are wild? I don't

(01:24:52):
recommend them. Well, thank you so much. Right on that note, Um,
where where can we find you? Online? Plug away? I
am at Nicole Patient on Twitter and Instagram. I am
at Lauren Flans on Twitter. Um, that's the best Lauren
underscore Flans on Instagram. But I'm not on Instagram. Not

(01:25:13):
Lauren's a Twitter Twitter person on a Twitter person and
our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram.
Give it a listen wherever you find podcast. Thank you
guys so much for having us all so much fun.
Thank you for being here. You can follow us on
the social media platforms at Bechdel Cast. We've got our

(01:25:34):
Matreon aka Patreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes
Can't go Wrong, uh so. And and this month on
the Patreon we're doing uh Knocked Up and Obvious Child
speaking to Jake Lacey Heavy Mup on the past. Yes
it's pregnancy June on the Matreon inspiring uh so. So.

(01:25:59):
You can check us out there. We have our merch
store at t public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.
We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you
can get your Feminism is the Law Now shirt. Also
for Pride, queer icon icon, non binary icon there we've
got We've got them all. Check out the store, um
and we'll talk to you. Yeah, yes, see you later. Bye.

(01:26:25):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Carol with Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent