Center Stage with Akilah Hughes

Jamie and Caitlin are dancing their way to a discussion about Center Stage with special guest Akilah Hughes!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hi, welcome
to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my
name is Caitlin Darante. And we were trying to think
of a dancing way to introduce this episode if we

(00:23):
couldn't think of any Yeah, it's probably has something to
do with dance being more of a visual medium. You
nagged me off, Michael, and I heard, wait, I'm still
stuck on Cats. So I'm like, well, I wanted to
do like a little skimble Shanks shuffle, but this movie
doesn't have a there's a parallel because there's a lot

(00:44):
of ballet in both Cats and center Stage. That's what ballet.
Oh yes, yes, yes, okay, I was like, hold on,
I think even like actor overlap, just just the art form. Yes,
the art form, the art form. Yes, Um, well it's
a dance episode. And you know, next time we do

(01:04):
a dance episode, we'll we'll cook on it. In the meantime,
I figure it out, Well, we have got Black Swan
coming up. I know, so there's really not much time.
There's really not much time. Uh so what we're talking
about center stage today? This is the Bechtel Cast is
our podcast where we talk about, um, how women are
portrayed in movies usually not that good? Correct? And we

(01:26):
used the how dare you do bad? Grant? Well you
already yelled at me about dance being a visual media.
I'm so sorry. Um. We used the Bechdel Test as
a jumping off point, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test,
which is a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel.
Oh yes, here's something fun. Yeah, Betel knows the show exists. Wait,

(01:48):
how do we yesterday? I'll tell you off my but
I found it. She she knows that. I don't think
she's ever listened to it, but she hurts. She's heard
of it. Okay, she's heard of it, and that's a start.
That's a start. She doesn't hate it, she's not gonna
see us that it was like. She can then feel
like stop yeah, no, no season desist yet. So she's neutral,
all right, she's neutral. Awesome? So what's the test? It

(02:09):
requires that two female identifying characters with names speak to
each other about something other than a man for at
least two lines. That's our bar. Yes, that's bar, dance
dance bar. Wish we didn't we didn't. We got there.
We're dancers. Yes, you are a dancer, Jamie, I mean
have been. I was for fifteen years and then I

(02:32):
became a visual arts made chair and that's my story. Wow,
I'm basically well, not know because Maureen was good, never
mind her mom, but like her mom cared and she
was good. So I'm not Maureen. I see, I grew
up playing soccer, so I didn't have dance. Yeah, I'm
bend it like Beckham. If we have to be from

(02:53):
the early adds, maybe a little more center stage. You're
a little more bend it like Beckham. Definitely. We have
a guest as always. She is wonderful. She's a writer, comedian,
host of What a Day podcast. It's Aquila Hues. I
thought I was going to say dog, and then I said, y'all,
I'm surprised myself. We can't. Yeah, the weird dog and

(03:18):
this and this is a cat's podcast. This is a
cat's community. Honestly, I wish we were talking about cats.
I haven't seen it filmed with no choruses, no no
real dancing, no plot, no assholes. It's a lot of things,
no asshole. It's that when someone pointed out it out
to me, I couldn't see it all write no cat butts.

(03:41):
Cats have like assholes. Yeah, like they walk in the
room backwards. It's weird that we're not talking about it,
but I guess we're at least we're talking about cats.
That's true. That's true as long as we're weird. Our
goal is to keep the conversation going around Cats until
it makes us budget back. So we're talking about it
for years. Yeah, you all were saying, what actor has

(04:02):
a crossover in both? I'm like, yeah, all the people
who were in Center Stage went on to have better career,
and everyone who's in Cats regrets it in inspiring the age.
I wonder if, like the they approached the dad from
the O C. They're like, you want to be in Cats?
He's like, no, I'm good. I was the dad from
the O C. So yes, I'd like to live on

(04:23):
my eyebrow legacy and not this garbage fire. Thanks though, Wow, anyway,
thank you so much for being here. Uh so you
brought us center stage. What's your history your relationship with
this movie? Honestly, we never rented it. My family was
never renting family. So I watched it probably a couple
of years after it came out on Basic cable. Came

(04:45):
on every day, uh, and I really loved it. It
was a movie that I think I watched by myself.
I was the youngest of four, and I'm like, there's
not a lot of memories of watching movies alone. This
was really formative for me. I just thought dancing was
so cool and moving to New York to dance would
be so cool. So I made my mom enrolled me
in ballet classes after seeing this movie. Yeah, media is influential.

(05:12):
Before we'll say it again exactly is like, look, there's
a black person in this and she's a total bitch.
I identified let me be a dancer, and uh yeah.
My ballet teacher quit like after like three weeks because
she said I didn't know how to tuck my po
poe in, which is her word for asked. So I
think it's just how it was shaped. But it was
really disappointing at the Salvation Army that afternoon. Where is

(05:35):
my teacher? Did you continue to study dance or study
is a real that's loaded words did a lot of words.
I So I auditioned for the dance team in high
school and like, I didn't break my ankle, but very
nearly broke my ankles, and then I went on to
audition in crutches, like while practicing, I felt like Eric Jones. Yeah,

(06:00):
I gotta tell you, it was far more embarrassing because
I was also in puberty among hot peers. So yeah,
it was it was. Yeah, that was probably the end
of dancing. I mean I did like musicals in college
and stuff, but you know, step ball change, not a
lot of like leaping. Sure. Um, I had never seen

(06:22):
this movie before prepping well for the episode thank you
so much. And I will admit and this is embarrassing,
but I thought that this movie and Saved the Last
Dance were the same movie. I just had no I like,
I kind of knew both. I definitely have seen Saved
the Last Dance, but I was like, oh, yeah, I've
seen Center Stage and I was like, wait a minute,
I haven't seen this because this is a different movie

(06:44):
from Save the Last Dance. There were a lot of
dance movies back then, and they all revolved around like
white dancers trying to be a little different. Yes, yes,
and I think say The Last Days came out like
the year after they came out, right, so I definitely
was a bigger hit the Last Thing. Yeah, well who

(07:04):
are we too? We had a recent guest who was like, oh, yeah,
that movie is just about how like interractional teenage kissing
like that was at the time. They're like, yeah, yeah,
it was a lacy, mostly lazy Yes, yes, Carrie Washington's
debut as the only line is like, yes, stealing black man,
Like that doesn't seem like a thing a teenage girl,

(07:28):
all right, Right, So yeah, I'm very new to this movie, Jamie,
what about you? I had seen this movie at like sleepovers.
I think I was very very into dance as a kid.
That was like my thing when I was little, like
a scholarship to go to dance school, and I really
was very excited and passionate about it. And then I

(07:50):
did that thing like when I did it all the
way through high school. I did all this stuff and
then like I didn't get my first audition in college
and I'm like, well I quit and then just never
did it again. So good for her, but yeah, like, hey,
the first sign of resistance just quit, probably turn out fine.

(08:12):
Maybe I don't love this. Yeah, it's just like that
I like. I don't know, I I really like dance.
I like dance movies. This was I think probably a
part of like a double feature at like my cousin
Chloe's Has. But yeah, I really like this movie. I
didn't realize I hadn't seen it in like years and
years and years, and I didn't like when I was little,
I didn't recognize anyone in it it. But now you're like,

(08:33):
oh damn, this is like Zoe Seldona's first speech. Yeah
that's so cool. Yeah. Should I do the recap and
we'll go from there. Yeah. Wait. The tagline for this
movie on the poster is life Doesn't Hold Tryouts. Oh
something about something really some food for thought, something you
think about. Okay, I'm sure it means something. I'm trying

(08:57):
to figure out what. Yeah, just like a bunch of dumbasses.
It's sitting in a circle in a marketing office like
ballet tryout Life not perfect day. Alright, So the story
a group of young ballet students. I think they're like eighteen.

(09:19):
This is like they're going to this academy instead of
like in lieu of going to like a university. I
think is I'm asking, are we to believe they're all
legal adults? That comes into play a few times where
I'm like, I hope so the actors are, but I
don't know, right. I think they're like eighteen having just
graduated from high school. I believe, Um, But they all
get accepted into They get accepted into a very competitive,

(09:43):
prestigious ballet school in New York City. Ever heard of it? Uh?
And it's called a b A the American Ballet Academy,
which is a fictitious for this movie. Among them are
Jody Sawyer, Eva Rodriguez that's Zoey's Donna's character, Um, Maureen
and everyone the girl from Um, the girl from I

(10:07):
think to hate about. She was obsessed with Shakespeare, her
seen Queen. She's one of those. She was in like
three things and then where Um. Well, the thing about
Maureen is that everyone thinks she's a bitch, but she's
just dedicated from her severe bang Like, Okay, I get it.

(10:29):
Her pale hair in contrast to her very dark or
her pale skin. I don't know what I'm talking about
she just looks different than everybody. She's given the look
like like she's the Darth Vader. Yeah, and the three
of them are roommates. And then we also meet Eric Jones,
Sergey and Charlie in the three of them are roommates,

(10:50):
like downstairs in the boy's dorm. I guess my boyfriend.
I were having so much fun making fun of Sergey.
Everything Sergey did was funny. He was like, I was drunk.
I'm sorry. So it was like, oh my god, Sey
was so weird. I imagine he did a hundred reads
of every line and they all came out. They're like,

(11:10):
we're going to take it again. He's like, I was drunk. Alright, Prince,
I guess we don't have another option because most of
the I was I had to check in the first
couple of minutes. The majority, I think, really, except for
Amanda Shoal who plays Jody and so I saw Donna,
everyone is basically a semi professional dancer or ice skater,

(11:33):
and that's why everyone acts really weird. Yeah. I was
strong say, like, you've ever been drunk before? Oh? Yes?
So then, um, the endgame for these students is to
get accepted into the American Ballet Company and the director

(11:57):
of the Academy and the company. Also, I think John
Ethan Reeves that's Peter Gallagher a k. The Daddy. He
announces that he will take three women and three men
at the end of the year and he will decide
who gets it after this big workshop performance. Then we
see them start to practice. Jody's form is sloppy. She

(12:22):
has to work on her turnout. Have I really dunk
on her in the first half of the movie, if
there was like that one with OC Daddy where he's
just like, listen, you can stay, but you you're horrible.
You're like I'm also wondering, like who led her into
the school? But right the first time I see her
day like I could just enroll. Well, there's this thing him.

(12:47):
During the audition, someone's like her number fifteen, and then
another person's like, well, she's got really bad feet and
like her turnout sucks, and the guys like but look
at her, and I guess it's like, Okay, So there's
this special thing about her, and it's that she's hot. Right,
I was just like she's and and there were there

(13:08):
was another blonde bellerie and I kept yes, I was like,
oh that's oh no, that's who's the protagonist. Yeah, definitely
same here, but yeah, she's specially um so. She's she's sloppy,
she's got work to do. And then there's Eva, who
is really skilled, but she doesn't like to follow the rules.
She smokes indoors, she choose bubblegum, she doesn't like the

(13:33):
dress code, stuff like that, and then she kind of
reminded me of the Mila Kuna's character in Black Swan
and not like the other ballerina's black and we can't
smoke while we're dancing. Dumb. It's a personality in Hollywood.

(14:00):
Um so. Then and then Maureen, she's like the teacher's
pet who has like the best technique in this school.
And there's also Cooper Nielsen. He is a dancer in
the company, who is I guess also like on TV
and famous. They say he's like on TV, I don't
like the famous yan. He's the face he's exactly, and
everyone's gossiping about him because he had been dating this woman,

(14:23):
Kathleen Donahue until they broke up and now she's married
to Jonathan the director. So there's all this drama there.
Then there's this big gallot at the school and maybe
Cooper like flirts with Jody, I d K. And then
there's also a cater waiter who flirts with Maureen and

(14:44):
then proceeds to stalk her. Uh but but right, you know,
we'll talk about it um. And then Jody she continues
to work on her dancing. But then this is when
she meets with Jonathan and he's like, you're bad at
this and I'm not kicking you out, but do you
even belong here? And then Eva is like, screw him,

(15:04):
Let's go have some fun. And then they go out
sausa dancing and Jody has a blast and she's like, oh,
I like dancing. That's not ballet at my school, Jodi
Jody when she's she's not a good salsa dancing. I
know the movie is supposed to frame it like, wow,
she's really cutting loose and you're just like, she seems
so uncomfortable and she's doing a bad job. Right, But
everyone else take it right? Everyone else great, including Surge,

(15:28):
really cuts loose. Yeah, there's a woman who's dancing with
who he is lied to and said that he's in
the mafia. He was strong, give me a bum. Let's see.
Then doing this other type of dance inspires Jody to
take a is this like contemporary dance that she takes

(15:50):
this class. It's like jazzy, but like not really like
we're gonna do this whole I don't remember the song now?
Was it Stevie? Wonder? Was it? Like? For some reason,
my brain is play, Oh my god, can you imagine
something in the same name. It's like a higher ground.
But then it was also another Oh. They were dancing
to a lot of Mandy Moore early and I love that.

(16:14):
I just got tingled. I love Mandy and they kissed
too that Mandy song, I really love that. I want
to baby with you. I didn't even know that A
good little Mandy how I'm like blessing she had. She
really did go shout out to Mandy. Whatever. So she

(16:35):
takes this contemporary dance class, which Cooper Nielsen is also in,
and then she's like really good at this type of
dance and he invites her back to his place. They
start kissing, they have sex, and then later Charlie asks
Jody out on a date, but she's like, I'm seeing someone,
Charlie is I think maybe one one of the other

(16:58):
really bad dancer actor because I kept forgetting who he was.
Every time you show up, he's like, Hey, I'm like,
who's this new character? And then he would always have
to repeat who he was in the scene. So I
think the director maybe also knew that he was stuck.
He's like Charlie from Seattle. You're like, right, yeah, he's
a good dancer, perhaps not a great actor, amazing dancer.

(17:21):
He he's in the wide shots and the d he's
in the wedge. They don't need a body double. We
can't take that away from this um. And this is
also when Maureen starts dating Jim, the pre Mid Columbia student,
the waiter that she met at the gala. I kept
calling him Mr gobbel Gul. It's all He's like, you

(17:43):
gotta have some Beazza and then she's like what well,
And then we also learn around this time that she
has an eating disorder. Yes, then the casting notice comes
out for the workshop performance and Jody has been cast
in the ballet. The cooper is choreographing, but he's kind
of like blowing her off. She's trying to be like, hey,

(18:05):
we're dating, right, and he's like, no, we're not. And
then it seems like maybe he and Kathleen are involved again,
or like maybe he's just trying to make Kathleen jealous
by having sex with Jody. Not totally sure. Kathleen really
couldn't give a ship either way about what Cooper does,
which I appreciate she remains pretty consistent on. She's just
like cool, Like he just keeps reaffirming the fact that

(18:28):
she was right to not stay with him, because he's like, yeah,
I'm dating an eighteen year old now, and she's like awesome, Yeah, yeah,
I'm on my phone. But it's because I'm trying to
see if no, Okay, I was confusing the person who
plays Mariten for the I think it's really Sobiesky who's
never been kissed, because I'm like, it's always the same

(18:50):
side kicking. It's like, so what it happened to? Really,
she's happen also restored, she's good news, she's a lie
and she's into art. Now Okay, I could have expected
that my head, but she's painting exactly. And anyway, so

(19:17):
they everyone starts working on their workshop show, and Charlie
senses that Jody and Cooper are involved, and then there's
this big like ballet dick measuring contest between Charlie and
Cooper where they're like, what if we end the thing
this way? He's like, well, what if I change I
did it differently? What if we do that? Okay, well

(19:37):
I'll try this thing. And he's like, well let's see
what Look what I can do. And he's like, look
at what I can do. And then we're like yeah,
We're like why is this scene five minutes long? And
then they just jumping around in the dance right, No
one who's watching knows what's better, right, I have no opinion.

(19:57):
I'm nine pressive. It looks good to me. Maybe do
all of that. And then there's like a lot of
buzz around Cooper's ballet, and then Eric gets injured, so
Cooper steps into his own choreographed ballet to take Eric's part.
Cooper is so annoying watching him as an adult, because

(20:20):
I know and as little like, but like as an
adult you're like, oh, brother, like he's a lot, I'll
do it. You're like, okay, it's like your music teacher
in elementary schools, like, do you want me to play
the piano company? And we're like, no, just play the
track like this is our day. Actually we're graduating this grade.
You don't have to love in a teachers like, this

(20:41):
is actually about me. Okay, So the ballet that he's
choreographed is extremely self indulgent, and it's about how stupid
a b A is and how he doesn't like that
his girlfriend got stolen away. I was like, oh, this
is basically marriage story the ballet. Like but but then
when you see the ballet, it's it exceeds like the

(21:05):
excess you're expecting by a bajillion percent. Where it's like
that dance is like twelve minutes long. There's like four
set pieces motorcycle, oh my god, the votors are her.
Her hairstyle drastically changes like four different times throughout the
same show. There's several costume changes on stage. On stage

(21:28):
somehow there's time to braid her hair for the final act,
relaces her shoes and the like. There's a thirty second
did she do this? My favorite part is like when
the like you're like, is this good? And then they
keep cutting to the audience. You're like, Okay, this is good.
This is good. They're all happy with the money they

(21:49):
spent on this evening, right, But before Cooper's show, we
have Jonathan's ballet and instead of Maureen and the lead,
it's Eva because Marine gave her part to her. And
then Maureen's mom is all like what the fuck and
Maureen is like she's got the stagiest stage mom. And
Maureen is just like, I don't even want to be
a ballet dancer. That's your dream, not mine. I love

(22:12):
this plot. Anytime someone says that to their parents in
a movie, and like it's it's become always I can't
relate with it. But you're just like, well, your parents
had dreams for you. I was, honestly, it seems like
they put a lot of time in efforts like yeah,
my mom didn't have a plan. And she was like, well,
as long as you're like not you know, homeless in
like five years, and so like this parenting approach is

(22:35):
like let's see how this goes, like as long as
you're paying bills, Like all right, yeah, whatever I want
to do, take um. So now it's time for Jonathan's
big decision of like who he's going to accept into
the company. But then Cooper is like, I'm starting my
own dance company because this rich woman is Yeah, he

(22:58):
had sex with um. Yeah, that is the vibe because
she comes in. It kind of reminds me of the
like Max Biala stocks old ladies in the Producers, where
you're like, oh, this is this is an arrangement that
they have. Everyone's happy with it, but it's an arrangement.
Um So he's starting his own dance company and he's like, Jody,

(23:19):
you gotta be in it. And then she's like, hey, Jonathan,
I'm going off with Cooper and he's like, shrug, I
don't care. And then yeah, going to invite you into
my thing anyway. But he does invite um Eva, Eric
and Charlie to be in the company, and then the
movie ends with Jody asking Charlie out on a date

(23:41):
and then they kiss Charlie Charlie from Seattle, and that's
the end of the movie. So let's take a quick
break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back here.

(24:02):
We are Scamble show cat um. Okay. You know, it's
like not a good musical when they have to like
introduce exactly who they are, Like you can't deduce their
importance by anything about it. Okay, we know this one's
been standing in the background for seventy seven minutes. But

(24:24):
this is an actor with the name. I think maybe
you'll say who it is. I mean another thing that
this movie shares is woulden acting from dancers. Sure, yes, yeah,
we're all the real dancers and cats like made to
be roaches and a lot of them probably. Yeah. Yeah,
it's god. It's like, oh, we can't talk about cats

(24:46):
again talking about centur Stage centur Stage. Okay, Um, let's
see this movie. It came out in two thousand. Yes, um,
so I was like, oh, this movie is twenty years old.
It's gonna be way more problematic than it is. There
are some issues, but I was like, oh, this is
actually kind of like it tries to do some stuff
for two thousand. I think it does better than I expected. Yes, yeah, correct.

(25:11):
I think like a wink towards progress. Yeah, a glimmer
of progress showing in. And I think it has at
least part to do with the writer being a woman,
Caroline hike in In. It looks like Heineken, but that's
her name, is not Carol Heineken, It's Carol hike hike In.
She also wrote Empire Records, which is maybe seen I

(25:34):
haven't seen, don't know there's a new show version coming
out with Zoe Kravitz playing reviews. Apparently it's almost the
exact same text, so there's like no update. We love
that for her. Just always happy for Zoe Kravitz. Wow,

(25:55):
but a lot of Zoe energy. Carol loves working with
Zoe's she's um. And then also the director is a
queer man, Nicholas Heightner. So the fact that you have
women and queer people in like the major creative roles
in this movie I think is at least part of
why it's maybe not as it avoids some of the

(26:15):
more obvious trophy stereotypes stuff like that. And h Nicholas
Heightner is also like like legend theater producer. Um. So
you're like, oh, he actually understands the world that he's portraying,
because sometimes I feel like it comes up a little
uncanny valley. Um. Yeah, yeah, there's I mean there's maybe
too much authenticity in this movie because they cast so

(26:36):
many dancers, um, and they dance magnificently. How we see
a lot of them dancing, We see, yes, the wide shots.
I was like, Oh, that's why they're so bad at acting. Yeah,
imagine it's like the same people who are in that
dance class where they're dancing too I want to say,
higher grounds, where they're like leaping forever, like they all
get their one moment. I'm like, yeah, like this is

(26:58):
you know that all of these dancers. Now every holiday
the family gets together and they're like, pull on that scene.
Remember when you left across the screen dying ground? Put
it on again, don't do it? And this movie when
it came out, I think, like many teen movies in general,
but especially teen movies back when a movie reviewers really

(27:21):
really really really were all old white guys, there was
like no so I didn't get reviewed particularly well because movies,
for like, I feel like, just in general, movies targeted
at girls are never super well reviewed, especially before there
was any manner of diversity and who was reviewing them.
So this got a fort on the Tomato meter, but

(27:44):
audience score eight two percent. Baby we Love She caught
You in Roll? Yeah, honestly, should we start with Jody,
start with Jodie? With jo Jodie man, I mean like
her story was going in some cool ways at certain times,

(28:05):
and then it kind of lost me in the middle.
What I thought was going to happen because she's kind
of like she's struggling in this ballet school. She's getting
kind of dumped on by O. C. Daddy and you're
like okay. And then she find this the higher ground
class and she seems to be thriving there, and like, oh,

(28:25):
maybe her storyline will be that she will get into
a different form of dance. That's what I thought too,
And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, or
that she'll like bring what she learns and these like
contemporary dance classes into her ballet and then people will
be like, oh, wow, she is really talented. Like yeah,
I thought it was going somewhere in that direction. I
was kind of hoping and go there and then and
then they're just like, no, it's love tangle. Sorry remember Charlie.

(28:47):
If we're like, no, well he's here, who was Charlie?
And then what you take away from that class I
was kind of bummed that what you took away from
her liking that class us was that she's going to
hook up with Cooper now instead of like she's going
to use this style of dance and then she ends
up working for him. At the end, you're like and

(29:09):
dating Charlie, right, because you know. What happens is like
they have sex, and so she's like, oh, we're dating
now and then but he's blowing her off although she's
she just like shows up to his thing, and she's
like showing up places where she wasn't invited. So I'm like, Okay,
that's not that's weird. But like she's being red and
she's young, but like like he seems like he's being mean,

(29:32):
but also it's like you're just showing up like that's
not okay. But then he's like really mean to her
when they're working on his ballet, and she's like, well,
what about how I feel? And it's like basically mapping
their relationship onto like what's happening like in the dance.
I mean, that's part of things. But she's like, well
what about what I want? He's like, I don't give
a ship what you want, stupid idiot. That was very jarring.

(29:56):
It was like I was like, wow, he says means stuff,
like like real means stuff. And then we're still like, oh,
she works for him. I'm like he will do that
again because then he so she like rushes outside and
then Charlie runs after her and he's like he should
be treating you better, and you're like yes, but like,
who are you? How did you know? I've never met you?

(30:20):
We met I'm Charlie from Yeah, so he yeah. Like
he's then set up as like a viable romantic interest
for her, and then it's the two of them, both
Charlie and Cooper in the big performance at the end,
and there's this whole weird thing also where like they're

(30:40):
playing like tug of war with her at one point,
like I think Charlie literally throws her through the air
and then Cooper catches her. So it's this whole like
she's being treated as an object, a possession, where it's
like property, yeah, and yeah like it and we're not
alled to believe that she has an issue with it,

(31:02):
and like we mostly see I was kind of bummed out,
and I mean for a number of reasons. But they
like her and um Eva get along really well and
they're like but but their friendship is kind of just
reduced to talking about JODI's romantic problems specifically, like there's
a few like with there, I mean, and we'll talk
about Eva at length, but as far as their friendship goes,

(31:23):
Eva's basically there just to be like, what's your boy problem.
I'm like, listen, they're talking about dance a little bit.
But it's like it's yeah, there's there's way more sucks
for both of those cares. Like there's way more of
a romantic through line than I felt there needed to be,
especially because like at the very end, so she she
performs very well in in the workshop and people are like, wow,

(31:47):
what a star, and then Cooper's like he owes her
an apology, but he does not deliver on that. He's
just like here, be in my thing. And then he
tries to kiss her and she's like, no, you stuck
because a boyfriend. I'm gonna's got Charlie on a date.
And then the kids like yeah on Monday, boss right,
And it's like you weird, why because like you know,

(32:09):
movies have to end with a hetero kiss, so it's
like she and Charlie kiss, But it's like why, Like
why couldn't it have been more about the dance, more
about her skills and like her coming into her own
as a as a performer and a dancer. I have
a controversial opinion, please, and I think the movie is
too much about the dance. No one has a life
or like hobbies outside of dancing, Like the things she

(32:30):
wants to do to cut loose from dance problem is
go to a dance class. The one suggestion for her
to get over and dude, it's like, hey, we're all dancers,
why don't we go dance? That's a good point, you guys,
ever do anything else? Has anyone here ever like read
a book? All right? And then when they go to
the bar, they're just like, oh, they're so Also, let's
put these drinks down, and then Sarah is like I

(32:52):
will drink all of them. Like there's just no one
has an interior life and only into your life they
gave anyone was Jody, and I guess also Maureen with
her mother. But it's all just like I feel like
Maureen got the most story out of anybody because I
was like Jody, like you start to learn about her
and then she's reduced to boys and then and then

(33:14):
also Jody's parents shop at the end, and you're like, hey,
now who are these adults? And they also are acting
like they don't know her. They're like that her mom
was like a great job. I was like, get along,
so they try, like I mean Maureen. I feel like
got the most because like we saw her family life

(33:37):
and her romantic life, which is like more than but
it is all related to dancers and dancing where she
meets like a guy who eats pizza and she's like
this cat happened? What is this? Yeah? I mean it's
a very focused movie. I suppose it is definitely very focused. No,
I agree. I didn't even thought about like all they do.

(33:59):
Re watching it, I was like, yeah, but like they
live in New York. This is all they do. They
go to one club and one dance class and then
all day dance and then yell about this guy that
is the dance teacher, like even the men there, It's
all right. Also, like for a movie that is like
so many ballet dancers, I felt like there was I mean,
was there any like LGBTQ representation at all? Are we

(34:23):
supposed to assume? And no, Serage has a Girlfriendalina um
but eric O Jones um is I think he's identifiably
queer because he's like Charlie, who I guess is supposed
to be attractive. I guess he comes in and like

(34:44):
Eric was like, who's that You're cute? And then he
was like, Oh, my girlfriend dumped me, and then like
Eric is visibly disappointintedly says like my girlfriend in Seattle,
and we're like, who are But yeah, I think that
he was clearly stated as a queer character, which kind
of like bums me out even further of how that

(35:06):
character is slowly just like edged to the point where
they're like, let's just break his leg. He's not leaving
screen fast enough injured, like it's too much. Yeah, Like there.
It reminded me of that the like thing where I
think we talked about it in our Pacific rim episode
where the female protagonist was like launched out of the

(35:28):
climax to the movie. They just launched her out of
the ship. They're like, we don't know what to do
with this character by and like they kind of do
the same thing to him because they're like, Okay, we
have to focus on this boring hetero love triangle that
no one's invested in. Um, let's break our only queer
characters leg they're only one. It's a ballets, right, And

(35:51):
And the fact that like you weren't totally sure if
he was queer or not, I think speaks to the
fact that we see several different romantic subplots, but Eric
has not afforded any of them. He doesn't get to like,
you know, fall in love with a man or anything
like that. But yeah, well so like there are moments
when some of the women, like the new batch of

(36:12):
like boys come in and they're like, oh, are they
gay or straight? Um, So there's like there's discussion of it.
And then there's that scene later when Sarage is at
the uh Sarage, how do you say that I was strong?
Sarage is at the salsa bar and he's hitting on
a couple of women and they're like, oh, well, what

(36:33):
are you doing here? He's like, I'm a ballet dancer
and they're like, t what a weirdo. And then he
goes to that other woman and he's like, I'm in
the mafia. She's so horny for him. She is in
love with him. The same with like the the older
female characters in this movie are horny, horny, horny, horny horny.

(36:54):
Because there's the woman at the salsa club, there's also
the like contemporary whatever Stevie Wonder, a dance teacher who
wants to have sex with it. It seems like they've
already sealed the deal. The five is she's like, Cooper,
You're so fun, and you're just like, oh my god,
Like there's a millionaire woman who has sex with Cooper. Also,

(37:17):
all the older women in this movie have better sex. Yeah,
they've sucked these young male ballerinas, and and good for them,
and good for them. It was just a strange thing
to happen four times. And then but I like them.
I liked it, Carol. Right. The point is that there's
not nearly as much like queer visibility your representation as

(37:41):
you might imagine, but that also could just be for
the time. I mean, this is two thousand. This is
the kind of thing where like, I wonder what the
first draft versus the final draft of this script looks like,
because yeah, like for it to be an accurate representation,
you would think that there would be way more queer
representation and like more explicit. And then I wonder how
much just two thousand did they used the whole budget

(38:03):
on that one diversity point. The man, we couldn't do
that any especially especially because since the director is queer.
I don't know, this is kind of speculation, but I
imagine he would have tried to champion for like responsible
queer visibility against it. But yeah, because it's yeah, it's

(38:26):
two thousand and we just weren't in the same place. Um.
Hot take from Caitlin. Let's read wait, hold on two
thousand different from what Let's take a quick break, another
quick break, and we'll come right back and we're back.
Let's talk about Zoe Seldonna and her debut role besides

(38:49):
an episode of Law and Order. Yeah, I'm trying to
find the clip from it, but luck so. Zoe Seldonna's character, UM,
I feel like there's there's good things, and there's things
that a very two thousand right in general, I feel like,
I mean, I like her character a lot. I remember
like really loving her character when I was a kid too,
because she's like the cools where you're like, oh if

(39:11):
I don't have an entry point for dance, like I
can relate to being the person who's like, I don't
give a ship right right, Like, yeah, she she didn't.
There was no point where she felt like she was
squandering her opportunity where everyone else was like so worried
about it. She's like, whatever, I'm gonna smoke and blow
it into your face right, like, and I like how
I was kind of worried in the middle of like, Oh,

(39:32):
I wonder how her storyline is going to end because
I kind of forgot I just remember that she dances
at the end, but I was like, I wonder, I
like that, Like the through line with her character is
like she is like the only character who's really just
like straight up passionate about what she's doing and doesn't
like play the game in the way Maureen does. She
doesn't do the politics of l a. She just likes

(39:53):
it and it's good at it and works at it,
and then she ends up being like rewarded for that.
She's not punished for like being outspoken, and she ends
up like getting what she wants because she worked really
hard and she's passionate about it and she's good at it.
So I mean she also got what you wanted because
Maureen was like, I'm gonna die, like he was never
going to give it to her. So like that, maybe

(40:14):
there's like an allegory here about like white women like
having the open doors black women. I kind of noticed, Yeah,
there's definitely a component of that. She was going to
start her own dance company otherwise and it's like we
can't we can't even give Maureen too many points because
she just waited until she was on her deathbed to

(40:36):
be like fine, Like, but it is good that I'm
glad she did. I thought that Marine was going to
get hurt. I didn't know that they were going to
let her character make a choice, right. Um, So that's
that's a really good point things happen. I was glad
that like even ended up getting the company too, because
there was that in that last second. I'm like, oh,
this movie could really go either way on a lot

(40:58):
of things. They broke our only queer characters, like let's
see what happens and then she gets it. You're like, thank, Um,
tell me how you feel about this. Did you feel
that Eva was kind of written using some like negative
black stereotypes in terms of like the angry black woman.
She's often late. Yeah, exactly, she's like the least professional

(41:21):
person on earth. The last dance, she's combat boots. Basic.
I mean, like, I think you know what's interesting in
rewatching it and like also realizing her name was like
Eva Rodriguez. I thought that they really tried to mash
up like she's black and Hispanic, but like I felt
more kind of alarmed by like the rage is being
like a hot headed Latina because like that's sort of

(41:44):
like you know, like entry point with like salsa and
whatever else. Like it just felt like maybe there was
you know, I'm giving a lot of benefit the down
right now. Maybe they were in ways trying to make
a commentary like this is a Latina, like you've never
seen them, darker than a paper back, but also walking stereos.
And I think it is interesting that like it's it's

(42:05):
like an Afro Latina character. And Zoe saw Donna is
also Dominican and Puerto Rican. I also looked at the
Wikipedia pitch look. I did not look anything up, So
thank you for being my research partner. I would say.
Either way, it felt to me as though some negative
stereotypes were being drawn on from both like black communities

(42:25):
and Latin X communities for that character. But and it
felt like for a large portion of the movie by
like the ballet Powders of be she was being treated
like a diversity pick, like like this affirmative action person,
like you don't deserve to be here. I'm like Jody's feet,
don't worry, don't tell me that can't be here, So

(42:47):
that is like, yeah, I think that, like what it
does seem more like, I mean, look, we saw the movie,
so watching it, it was like there are moments that
are stereotypical as a child. I don't know that I
like bought into it or like realized I was like,
she's the fun one. But it does seem like maybe
the directors and writers were like, Okay, well, if we
have to like give her an edge, because if she's

(43:09):
just like a silent black person that everyone hated, it
would be a different movie. So they're like, let's just
give her this personality so that she's difficult in the
event that like people think that this is like some
liberal talking point, which was not a thing that existed,
snowflakes talking about ballet establishment. But yeah, I think that, like,

(43:33):
at least they seem like, even in hindsight, aware of
the fact that like, Okay, she is up against a lot,
so even with her weird writing about her personality quirks, like,
we at least back it up with by saying like, well,
she's a good dancer and and she deserves to be there,
So being the black one isn't the only reason why
she's having problems right right. I wish I almost wish that,

(43:57):
like if they were going to give her those like
aeotypical kind of stock personality traits, I feel like they
sort of skim the surface of trying to explore them.
But then she's just not given as much screen time
as she needs to be given to have that explored,
because you get that like one seeing them like, oh
this is something where the dance teacher who's not OC daddy,

(44:21):
Um fine, yeah, I mean lady, mean lady who's been
mean to Eva a bunch of different times, finds her
rehearsing late at night, and I think like realizes like, oh,
she really is passionate about this, and then offers her
like oh can I help you? You're like okay, this
what well, and then it just kind of is dropped

(44:41):
there and you don't really get to see like where
you're like, okay, good, You're the teacher should believe in
her student the whole time she's two thirds in. I
don't know, like I wish that there was a little
more or that we like learned anything about her outside
of her relationship with the school, which is something we
come up with movies. In this era, especially all the

(45:01):
time where it's like one of the only non white
characters that we see. There's just a total absence of
any background information. Like I always think of the Craft
as craft um as who's who's the actor in the Craft?
What is the Craft episodes from a long time ago? Um?
Is it Rachel True? I couldn't confirm, nor did I.

(45:23):
I don't know either way, Like certainly could have been
let's not rule her out. She give me the craft Yemmy,
But but yeah, we we don't really get to find
out anything about her, which sucks and it's kind of
like a wasted opportunity. The other big thing about her
character is that she hates Marie. There's like some woman

(45:48):
on woman hatred for what feels like kind of no reason.
She's just like I heard Maureen's a bitch and she
told me I can't smoke in my dorm room. So
her I interpreted that as kind of like a coded
class thing, where Mareen very much like a little nepotism
me brady kind of girl, and then Eva is kind

(46:10):
of coded as like someone who doesn't come from a
ton of money and doesn't have this like overbearing parent
constantly like at this home. I remember thinking about it
as a kid too of just like, oh, like rich girl,
not rich girl. And I feel like girls, like people
in general, but especially women, are like pitted against each
other in that regard a bunch um. And then Jody

(46:33):
is like, who knows what's going on with her? She's
friends with everybody, which she don't have feet amazing because
like you know, the Bechtel test is about conversation, so
like you know, but it's like, why does no one
have like the real conversation. It's all passive aggressively. You
also can't smoke, and she's just like I don't like her,
instead of like I need to smoke indoors, Like why

(46:54):
are you not defending? You can't feel like she's a
bitch if you know what's wrong. It's just such a
weird scene. That's one of the only times I could
relate with Jody, because I'm like, if I was a
teenager someone was smoking inside and someone else was like,
you can't smoke inside, I'm like I would say nothing.
I would just be like, let's see where this goes,
Like I mean, what's wrong with smoking outside? I'm not
saying she's right, right, you know, for once, I like,

(47:18):
I liked that evaes that hill to die on right away,
and she's like, oh, I can't smoke in the dorms. Fine,
what kind of school is this? And like any other school,
And then the camera rests on Maureen as if we're
supposed to be like, how unreasonable. Yeah, breathe the second
hand smoke. Jeez. But yeah, that that's set up between

(47:42):
the two of them of just being this like antagonst Well,
it's more that Eva hates Maureen. Maureen's just like kind
of there and she mostly actually seems to be kind
of nice. Maybe she likes the rules a bit too much,
but like whatever. But what I like, what I do
appreciate about this story, Oline, is the resolution is that

(48:03):
Maureen lifts up Eva by being like, Hey, I'm I'm
too sick to perform and I don't like to dance.
I want to hang out with my pizza boyfriend. He's
almost done at his catering shift, and I'm excited he's
going to bring home some left Um. Yeah, I think
was the whole time he was like this is me,
this is me, Like, you're not pizza boyfriend. He's like,

(48:26):
I'm pizza and then there's also like plenty of female
friendship in the story as well, so it's not as
though like there's only one female relationship and it's antagonistic.
There's there's plenty of others. But still I think that
there are a lot of missed opportunities in this movie.
For like, the only two times we really see like

(48:48):
female characters like helping or like really showing friendship or
kindness to another is when Maureen drops out and gives
the opportunity to Eva, who deserves it, and then all
so kind of with Eva in the Dance Teacher. But
for a lot of moments where you're like, oh, this
would be a really great opportunity for the like female
dancers or really just the dancers to support each other,

(49:10):
it just becomes a Jodi love thing where there's like
two different boyfriends. Pizza boyfriend quote unquote rescues Maureen and
helps her see the light of the fact that she
doesn't love dance. Like she doesn't really get to take
the credit of figuring that out on her own. It's
pizza boyfriends. It comes in from nowhere. Like the first
person who offered her food, she was like, oh my god,

(49:32):
I'm done with this was like wait a second, like
that is not God. I wish we were that easy.
Uh yeah, sort of to that point though, I think
that what something that stood out to me and rewatching
it is all of the nice things that characters do
to show friendship or like you know, compassion or giving
something up ends up being self serving in some way.

(49:52):
Like Maureen doesn't want to dance. It's not like she's
doing this and she's like, well, I throw away my
opportunity and now I have to regret it. She's like
this is good for me, and like it's good for you,
but it's better for me. I felt the same way
about like I mean, this is Cooper being like you
can come dance with me, and I'm like, well, that's
because now everybody knows who she isn't likes her like
you weren't gonna do if this had gone another way,

(50:14):
like if if you know, if Zoe sel Donna went
out there and crushed it and then she went out
there and fell down in her weird red outfit when
they did the long cot, like he would have been like, yeah,
maybe I'm going to go back to working for Sandy Cohen,
like you can, good luck with your bad feet, like
we're not sucking anymore. And it's especially sinister with like,

(50:36):
if Maureen didn't want to quit dance, she would have
never been like he se, Donna, let me lift you
up and give you an opportunity like that. Yeah, that
just wouldn't have happened. Yeah, it's not within her character.
I mean, none of the characters seemed to like actually
want to do good things unless they're like, it's actually
a scapegoated excuse for me to stop right, I hate
my life, You take my life now, and they're like,

(50:59):
thank you. Cool, I actually wanted your life. This works
out great for me as well. Now I don't like
smoking doors, just like Freaky Friday paid each other. Yeah,
that's a good point. I like, And there were those
opportunities were there for them too, and I'm sure it
would have helped the storyline to to like have the

(51:19):
characters interacting more. Um, but I think sometimes they kind
of just like and I wonder how much is like
I want to give Carol the benefit of the doubt
and be like, maybe it with studio nuts where they're like,
does add in some love story here that would fit
better than building out friendships? Um, or like moments that
we could include Eric in the plot at all. I

(51:40):
liked that also with Eric's character because like he was
also one of the only dancers whose performance was like palatable.
He could act because he's an actor and not a dancer.
He had he had no previous dance that he later
toured um in the high school musical touring company. And
I was like, well, I think he might have, like

(52:03):
he probably trained in ballet for prior to this role,
but like before getting cast, I don't think he had
really any dance because where do we get so much
circuy like it, It's like the studio was like this
guy's on fire every line I was, he says. If

(52:23):
anyone wants to go back and watch the scene where
he says I was drunk, it's when they're punished by
having to squeegee in the punishment because they missed curfew.
Is that what it is? Like? There's a they were
they showed him. They were all laughing and they were
like that was crazy because he was dancing so long.

(52:44):
Now I can't dance today, say was the only one
who was actually drunk. Everyone else was just dancing. Man,
this dance hangovers because and then like they're all they're
like having fun. They're like throwing all the sponges in
each other. And then like Maureen like peeks into the
him and she's like, oh, that must be what having
friends is like, because everyone hates her because he thinks

(53:04):
she's a bit boyfriends outside. Can we talk about Maureen? Yes,
there's a lot going on with her. Said again, it's
like every character in this movie, you're like, I like
some things and then other things they kind of lose
the thread. To me, the big conversation here is, uh,

(53:27):
the examination of eating disorders. So it all kind of
starts out by Maureen fat shaming her friend Emily, who
is also rocketed out of the narrative, and that that
feels that that was frustrating because I think it's Emily
is the character's name. She is written as the ballerina

(53:50):
who eats like a normal person. Like every scene she's
in there like we wouldn't remind you that she eats
because he's eating right now, and like that's different than
everyone else who doesn't do that, And they like take
great pains to point out that she's eating and that
it bothers the other girls because to a normal viewer,
they'd be like, oh, she's out of function, makes sense.

(54:11):
But there there's a few moments, especially when she's around Maureen,
where Marien is clearly like borderline triggered by the sight
of another dancer eating anything, which isn't like abnormal for
that world. But it's a little bit off. Yeah, that's
the thing is. I mean, you both know more about
dancing than the I thank you, But I have heard

(54:38):
on the streets that if you know, if you're participating
in ballet on like a serious level, there is an
expectation that you're going to be thin, that you have
to be in like have like a very rigid standard
of kind of beauty and body size and shape. Eating
disorders are like extremely prevalent. So I appreciate that this

(54:59):
movie kind of attempted to tackle it, but I don't
think it really went as far as it should have gone,
or did everything totally right, because one example is when
Emily has finally been kicked out for having gained too
much weight, someone's comments on her being fat, and her
mom says, um, you're not fat, you're beautiful, which it's

(55:23):
the idea that you cannot be both, which is not
true as we know it's trying and it's failing. Yeah,
it's also though, like with Maureen's character it, I think
the juxtaposition for like a young viewer of watching her
be lifted up as the best of the best, like
this is who everyone wants to be, She's getting everything,
and she is the sickest person in the film. I

(55:46):
think that it, like like in spite of itself, is
sending a different message. Like I remember watching it as
a kid and being like, well, she's skinny, and this
guy likes her so much he's buying her pizza. Like
I didn't have a concept like even when you know
they do finally have a or she's coming out of
the bathroom because she's making herself sick. You know, I
don't even think I realized as a child that's what
was happening. I just knew like maybe she has like

(56:08):
a disease because she's like like her eyes are like
blue underneath she's very thin. But I didn't I didn't
get that like that was her dedication and like that's
in her mind, like that was the way to be
quote unquote perfect. I just saw like she has everything,
but she's not happy because she has to like she
doesn't get friends. I didn't think, like because she doesn't
take care of herself, and so it seems like, yeah,

(56:31):
like as close as they got to getting it right,
there was always that moment of just like, well, can
anyone like everyone who has power is rewarding this behavior,
right am? I Like my thing with it was that
I think that, yeah, like the movie should have been
more explicit about like this not only is not a
way to treat yourself, but there are negative consequences. And
I would have loved to see her like at least

(56:54):
it be alluded to the fact that she's going to
get some sort of treatment for it. Yeah, like a
doctor tell her that something wrong, versus like her boyfriend.
And I decided, right, He's like, I'm not a doctor yet.
I'm in my first year of pre med and You're like,
I'm a freshman in college books. It's a bar. Yeah,
I I like, I don't, I don't know. I've like

(57:15):
I've I've had like eating disorder issues since I was
like little, and so I like, I remember when I
saw this movie, I knew what she was doing, and
there is some element and it's like to the point
where I'm like I don't even know what the solution
to this is, but there is some element of like
trying to address a serious issue in a movie directed
at young people and then accidentally showing young people how

(57:37):
to hear something you can do, because I like, I
remember that, like I learned eating disorders from TV and
then emulated them until like yesterday, right, and then on
top of that, it's and then I think that like
I had similar like not things that I ever did,
but like, I think the like concept of cutting was

(57:58):
something I first saw on TV and a very well
intentioned episode of Degrassi, but I, like I didn't know
what that was before, and then after that you're like, oh,
here's a character that I like doing this very harmful thing,
and the and the narrative is framing it as bad.
But still sometimes when you're really younger, like I want
to be like that character, and so I do appreciate.

(58:20):
I feel like, in a ballet story about young girls
being pressured to be like quote unquote great at this thing,
it would be weird to not touch on eating issues
at all, in the same way that it's weird that
they don't touch on queer issues. Yeah, I also think,
like to that point, Um, what's the guy who broke
his eric? Like if she had broken her leg because

(58:44):
she hasn't had proper nutrition for years, that would maybe
have sent a message to me like oh, it's killing
her versus like she's going to go on and be
totally fine. She's just gonna go to law school. Like
that's sort of hardly yeah, Like there's nothing that she
has to unlearn, and like there's no growth point. It's
just like, well, I had one conversation and I decided

(59:04):
I don't do that anymore or dance, and I'm like right,
And it was like it was her boyfriend who pointed
it out to her, and it was like the second
hand embarrassment of her boyfriend knowing that she was doing
it that really seemed to sort of push it over
the I don't know, like I appreciate that this movie
tried to do something, and like I think probably the
best way to. I mean, because it's the institution of

(59:28):
ballet and things like Hollywood and any other sort of
like institution that pressures people to have their bodies be
a certain way. That's the thing that's harmful and that's
what needs to be like commented on and challenged and
like addressed in these movies, but the movie doesn't really
It's not like, well it's ballot. It's the school that's

(59:49):
making me do this, and that's why I feel so
much pressure. It's I think that's maybe suggested that, but
I don't think it goes all the way to like
challenge it enough. And I think, like, you know, it
is a movie with a bunch of young, thin people,
and so like I just felt like what was more
glaring to me as a child was the fact that
she was lonely and like had isolated herself, not so

(01:00:12):
much that like everyone else wasn't also at like a
very low weight doing this this work. And so I
think that like it's almost like none of those people
called it, none of them cared, No one was like
Emily deserves to stay like they were all just like, well, okay,
one last person to compete against in this dance school.

(01:00:32):
And I think that like maybe it just feels like
because there's only one character that's dealing with it, it
felt too reduced because I'm like everyone here is affected
in ways by the idea of what they're supposed to
look like on stage, especially because like some of them
get Like Jody is told she doesn't have the ideal
body type she had, you know, and she's like, I

(01:00:53):
shouldn't eat cookies. I'm already in enough trouble with my body.
So like they're all in Emily constantly being like, you
need to see your nutritionists. You're too you've gained too
much weight to So they're all being told it, but
it seems like, yeah, Marine is the only one who
is who has developed an eating disorder based on it.
But this could be I think you're totally right at

(01:01:13):
Killer where it's like this could have been a conversation
between everyone that could have like bonded them a little
more strongly, and they're like one of the things with
Maureen's character that I wish you'd gotten to see was like,
what was that conversation at length between like Eva and Maureen,
Like of like when Maureen is like does she share?
Why does she just say get out there, go get them?

(01:01:34):
Like that? That could be a really interesting thing that
I mean, Eva and anyone at that school, like you're saying,
like could relate with the pressure, and maybe they don't
like go full bolimic, but but everyone can relate with
like withholding food and and all that, and like that's
something that they could have talked about, especially if we
saw them be like, oh, all of our like instructors

(01:01:57):
are telling us, oh, we need to like watch what
we eat and go to the nutritionis and if they
like kind of together rose up against that as a group,
be like no, like we need to be healthy, we
are athletes, Like we need to take care of our bodies.
We cannot be started. I went to a ballet last
year and I was like, oh my god, this is

(01:02:19):
the way no one's fighting back against those standards. The
way that movie would end would be like and we're
all going to law school, but it would be fun.
Another thing about Maureen is she's the only one that
we get to see interact with a parent. This again,
there's like there's ups and dances. Her mom is written

(01:02:39):
pretty egregiously. I feel like there's like she is like
stage mom. The moment between them that I found so
so basically Marin's mom is very hard on her. It's
her dream, not marines um. And so she's she's a
dance mom. She's literally a dance mom. And the one
moment that between them that I found really heartbreaking was
when Maureen was trying to push she was trying to

(01:03:02):
tell that weird joke that never made sense to her.
My gosh, the elephant the mouse rape joke was that.
I was just like, no idea what she's trying to say.
But she was trying to like have a little fun
with her mom, and her mom blamed Maureen acting differently
like Marian was trying to tell her mom, I haven't
eating disorder, I'm not healthy, and her mom was like,
pizza boyfriends ruining your wife. I was like, Mom, you dumbass. Yeah,

(01:03:27):
that that that part, you're just like, oh, that sucks.
Like she's trying to be open with her mom and
her mom's just like not receiving it. That like that
I thought was like well written, but for the most part,
you're like, I don't know how how do you all
feel about it? Okay? One thing on Maureen, I do
think she has the best line in the film. But

(01:03:47):
she says, I'm the best goddamn dancer in whatever company.
Who the hell are you? I think about it all
the time all the time. She says nobody. He's like, oh,

(01:04:08):
I'm getting out of here. Like she really changed her
voice for that pizza boyfriend found like demolish. I also
just feel like that subplot between Maureen and I guess
his name is Jim the cater writer could have been
that subplot could have been written out of the movie.
Nothing really would have changed, and I think that screen

(01:04:30):
time could have then been dedicated to if there are
going to be romantic subplots, give it to Eric, especially
because Jim is like he stalks her. He relentlessly calls
her when he finds out. So he finds out her
name and where she goes to school, so then he
starts calling like the administration building, and also the fact
that they would even like say anything, right, and then

(01:04:53):
he just shows up. She walks outside one day and
he's just like waiting there for her, and he's like,
give here's my phone number, and she's like, okay, I
guess we're dating now. In Jim's defense, though this was
two thousand people did not have cell phones. It's true,
there's no social media. True they had a real connection.
How was he ever got to see her again? He

(01:05:13):
knew one d too. I was. I was annoyed at
Emily and then I'm like, Emily, why did you give
Jim her last name could have prevented Pizza boyfriend. That's
why no one wants you around either. I also, I
mean so that I feel like he that was a
pretty like cut and dry, predatory romance, like we've seen
this a ba jillion times, especially in this era. But
they also like it felt like a weird thing that

(01:05:35):
he was made out to be like a working class guy.
And then they kind of backtrack on that later they're like, well,
he's a medical student, so don't worry. He's still like
a quote unquote good option for marine. I think there's
like a little bit of like classy stuff because I
thought he was going to be her gobbel gouel boyfriend
who like brought her out bowling. And you're like, oh,
it's like a working class character in this movie that's

(01:05:57):
like not really full of character. He's the jack of
her rose to it. He's not you and McGregor in
Mulan Route. Why wouldn't you choose Why wouldn't you choose
the Maharaja? That's the question I asked myself that every day.
That's real love. You know another movie that I would

(01:06:18):
love to talk about anything We already covered it, but
we'll do it again. Honestly, we're just gonna have to
start doing like the best of favorite movies again. Uh So, Marian,
I mean I think a lot. I mean, like many characters,
it's like they start to address they start an interesting
conversation and for whatever reason, either they chose not to

(01:06:38):
or like for production reasons, we're not able to follow
through on the kind of thing. But I mean, again,
like toxic stage parents are so prevalent in ballet that
you're like, okay, this makes sense that this is at
least they're trying to and it's melodramatic become of this movie,
home movie is whatever. At the end, she's like, I
have I have a pizza boyfriend now and that's my future.

(01:07:00):
Her does he give her pizza? I forget why he
why pizza is a thing he gives her on their date.
She that's the first she has a tip of pizza.
And then he's like, babe, you're like classic pizza boy friends,
eat it better, eat it the way you're supposed to
eat pizza. Come on, act like you've had pizza your
parison like that. That's that whole scene. Who else is

(01:07:24):
there is there any I think? Well, I we we
sort of touched on this during Jody's section. She's just
such a boring protagonist that it's hard to want to
talk about her. Yes, sorry, Jody's not perhaps interesting. Yeah,
But with Cooper, I was like, was he did you
find that he was being? What was there? Like? So

(01:07:45):
are they she's a student and he's in the company.
Is that like in terms of predatory? I couldn't really
suss out because at first I'm like, is she like sixteen?
And I'm like, no, I guess she's eighteen, Like I
think they're all supposed to be adults. You're right, it
is predatory, and I think that it's the way they
tried to write around that is like, well, he's not
like he doesn't have a lot of power in the company,
like he has to start his own because like no

(01:08:06):
one respects him. So it's not like she's sucking someone
didn't give him something, give her something. He's just like
a guy that happens to be older and like weirdly
wanting to hang out and how much older we don't
know the after It was twenty five when it was filmed,
so I'm like, okay, that's less agreed justus than I
thought it was going to be, but it was. I
don't know. I guess we could just be like enough

(01:08:27):
to start your own ballet company with funding business owner.
He might. I mean, let's say, to make to make
me myself feel better, let's say he was only in
the academy for one year prior to that, and he
made the companies and now this is his so maybe
he's nineteen or twenty. But then they're also like, he
went off to London for a while and fucked everyone

(01:08:48):
who lived in his way through and came back. They
also really like glaze over the fact. They're like, oh,
he also has a serious drinking problem. He also won't
stop harrap sink his ex. They wanted to say thing
really quickly about his ex Kathleen, who I wish was
in the movie more because she just didn't have time
for anyone in this movie. Every time she's on screen,

(01:09:08):
she's like whatever, like and then she's like, I'm married
to O C Daddy, I'm happy. But they talk kind
of cruelly about her at one point where she walks
past the younger girls at the beginning and they're like, oh,
it's Kathleen, Like she's in the company blah blah blah,
and then they're talking about like, oh, well, she married
oc daddy, and they're kind of making it seem like
she's like she's the one trying to get ahead and yeah,

(01:09:31):
like she's like not gold digging, but yeah, like just
trying to secure her place in this company. And that
is one thing that kind of goes unchallenged, and they
kind of are critical of her for that, but then
we see she's really good. It's not like she's horrible
and doesn't deserve to be there. And then kind of
the same thing with Jody that I felt like weird
that it's written this way where Cooper only invites her

(01:09:55):
to dance for him after they've slept together, which she
doesn't really seem to care about, and she kind of
flaunts that in front. I mean, even the dance is
that there's a bed on the stage dance. They're like,
why don't we go through everything that happened in the
two weeks we've known each other right here in a dance.
Like it's kind of like Mulan Rouge again, because it's
like the play Inmory is what's happening in the narrative

(01:10:19):
of the movie. Um, well, that's the thing, Jamie. It's like, um,
for such a long time, and even to some extent today,
if a woman accomplishes anything, so many people are going
to be like, well, who did she fuck to get
that thing? And this movie just confirms it and they're
just like, well, we know who these two women fucked.

(01:10:39):
They're they're pretty good. And you're just like, I don't
like this precedent there or yeah, it was just written
a little bit weird. Also, it is funny to picture
what that whole fifteen minute dance would have been like
at the end if Eric did it like that was
just supposed to be Eric. That was just supposed to be.
Halfway through that he's like, wait is this about that time?
He fuck to hold on. I'm just now getting it.

(01:11:05):
I don't have a bed frame about but it was
just yeah. So so that like, um, just like women's
careers being I mean, and there is I forget, Oh
I've read something like not too long ago that was
It was just an argument that sometimes modern feminists come
down on that story point a little hard, because there

(01:11:25):
were times in history where securing I think it was
like something about little women were like securing uh, powerful,
A man in power was the only way to ensure
your own survival. But it's two thousand in this movie,
so I'm pretty sure some other options I'm every Woman
had come out likes, and we see that they're both

(01:11:50):
talented enough to not need that, so it's weird that
the movie doubles down on them needing that on top
of being capable. I don't know. There's also that means
there's two different love triangles happening, because there's one between Jody,
Charlie and Cooper, and there's one between Cooper Mr. O
C Daddy and then Kathleen. I mean, but is it

(01:12:10):
if Kathleen and O C Daddy are both like get
away from us? Yeah? Yeah, Cooper is just trying to
insert himself into it and yes, but it's weird. And
then like the Kathleen character is just treated again, is
like the object that just keeps getting like tug award
back and forth. Um, but she I kind of I

(01:12:31):
guess that's why I like Kathleen because like people are
trying to do exactly what they're doing to Jody, which
just like Yank yank, and Kathleen's sort of like not
having it, like she there are moments where she's like, Cooper,
you're being annoying, Like your girlfriend's eighteen, cool but whatever.
But it's like she she is like unwilling to engage

(01:12:54):
it in a way that and it's like I don't
blame Jodie because she's a fictional character and she's very young.
And that's another way that you're like, oh, he is
like Cooper is very emotionally manipul if where like yell
at her during rehearsal. He's her boss, but he's her boyfriend.
And there's an eight like the difference for I mean
not for everybody, but like if I was eighteen and

(01:13:16):
dating someone in their mid twenties, I would be so
out of my fucking depth. I wouldn't have known what
to do. And so like there's that like it's just
a it's just a weird setup they give us. Yeah,
it's also like that I think that all of her
interior life with these relationships, I think it does a
disservice to the point of this being a dance movie,
because like she is consistently criticized for her like skills

(01:13:38):
and abilities, but she's always fine and everything she does
is dancing and she's like normally fine. Like the dance class,
no one was like keep up ballet girl, like she
was great and as we were made to believe she
was great. And so it's like, wait, so is her
challenge dance? Because like, even if people are saying you suck,
you suck, you suck every day about her body and

(01:13:58):
her turnout and whatever, that has never been a hindrance
the finding success. So they're like, well, I guess my
only problem then is that I'm boning the sky. Right,
They're like, I'm not going to engage in the smoking discourse,
So that's not even a problem. But she doesn't have problems.
She creates her own very sticking around with these terrible dudes.

(01:14:21):
We're used to seeing white male mediocrity, so this time
we're seeing white female pretty far. We're thinking, we gotta
wrap up, right, we gotta were Okay, umy gang, Does
this movie pass the Bechtel tests? Certainly? Yeah. We're talking

(01:14:43):
about cigarettes. Yeah, we're talking ballet. We're talking about turnout, food,
We're talking about we're talking about is your dreams not mine?
We're talking about a lot of characters, a lot of combinations.
Definitely talking about passing sky just scared stuff. Um, yeah,
there's there. They're women are talking about all sorts of

(01:15:04):
things there. There is a larger romantic presence, but that
doesn't get in a way of a pass in the test. True.
All right, let's rate it on our nipple scale. Zero
to five nipples, Like how many nipples we saw? I
don't really remember any. I think zero maybe the dude
nipples maybe nipples. Um, so yeah, zero to five nipples

(01:15:24):
based on its representation of women. To me, this one's
kind of like split down the middle, it's like a
two point five um, just because it's I think it's
making some attempts at trying to tackle various things. None
of it goes very far or does anything, but it's
also probably it's I think it would have been kind
of groundbreaking or impressive for two thousands. So the fact

(01:15:47):
that they're including a queer character at all, the fact
that they're touching on eating disorders, the fact that they
include a couple characters of color, different things like that,
but also just a lot of the other problems that
we've already discussed. So two point five and I'll give
to to Zoe Saldonna and I'll give my remaining half

(01:16:08):
nipple too. I'll give to Maureen's in her new career.
Um yeah, I feel the same way I think two
and a half. I think this movie is like actually
making an effort, which in two thousand is like wow,
an effort to talk about things, even if it doesn't
get all the way there, that's something. Um yeah, it's

(01:16:31):
progress in its way, you know, like attempts for two
thousand is not nothing. And in what was you know,
intended to be like a widely very popular movie, which
maybe it wasn't, but you know whatever. Um, I just
I love dance movies. Yeah. And then I think that
like the main points were like yeah, the not really
it seems like they weren't able to deal with a

(01:16:53):
queer storyline in the way that they may have liked to. Um.
I wish that we had gotten to learn more about
even and avoided a little more of the like stock
personality traits there. Um and just like the intense like, um,
let's replace any point women could be interacting with hetero

(01:17:14):
plot point of like men that we keep forgetting about. Um.
But I love who suck in general? Who are either
the worst or Charlie from Seattle, like whatever, Um, I
love Sergey. Anyways, two and a half nipples, one to Sergey, uh,
one to zoeys sel Donna, and the last half to Kathleen.

(01:17:34):
I'm going strong to nips. Um. I agree with everything
both of you just said, so I will. My new point,
I guess is that with a movie that has I
would say upwards of three stars, like people who are
well known, this movie should have done better. Um. I
think that it's a shame that you can have people
who are clearly talented and not use them to the

(01:17:54):
best of their abilities, Like the d answer should just
been dancing. Why are they talking toone? We regret miss
opportunity And I think, yeah, in the genre that it
was in, like I considered it kind of like in
the same era of like high school movies that were
like big, like ten things and cruel intentions even like

(01:18:15):
I don't know, I think that, Um, you know, if
I had to give my two nipples for all of
these things, I would give one nipple to New York
City holding it down a beautiful backdrop for a very
boring story. And um, okay, I'm gonna give half nipple
to Sandy Cohen's eyebrows shout out the beginning of an

(01:18:39):
era and I'll give the other half to Zoe because
she should smoke in the dorms, burn it down. Who gives?
Oh well, Tequila, thank you so much for being for
having me. This has been a highlight of my life. Wow,
this is wonderful. We're so glad you could come. Where
can people follow you online? Check out your stuff that

(01:19:02):
I live on the internet, So follow me on Twitter
at Aquila. Obviously subscribe to my podcast. It's a daily
news podcast for cricket media called What a Day comes
out Monday through Friday. And uh, I don't know, don't
show up at my dan's recital if I don't invite you.
That's it perfect rule at them. Yes, uh yeah. You
can follow us at Bechtel Cast, on Twitter, Instagram, all

(01:19:24):
the places. You can follow us on Patreon. Five dollars
a month means you get to bonus episodes every month
and get merchant t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. Wow,
and now we all dance away by bye.