Den of Thieves and A Conversation on Copaganda and the LASD with Cerise Castle

Content warning: this episode contains descriptions of police brutality.

This week, Jamie and Caitlin speak with journalist Cerise Castle about her groundbreaking new series “A Tradition of Violence: The History of Deputy Gangs in the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department” for Knock LA. We can’t recommend it enough -- Cerise also brings us "Den of Thieves," a movie that glorifies one of the LASD gangs she reports on. Read the series here, and follow Cerise on Twitter @cerisecastle!

Read “A Tradition of Violence” series here: https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/ 

And contribute to the Knock LA Patreon here to support local journalism in LA (Jamie writes for them too, full disclosure): https://www.patreon.com/KNOCK_LA 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and Best
start changing it with the bel Cast. Hello, Welcome to
the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name

(00:21):
is Caitlin Darante, and this is our podcast in which
it's really long and it really seems like it's heading somewhere,
and then at the last second we tell you we're British.
O we it's go don of thieves heads will know.

(00:41):
I'm like, I don't. Are there don of thieves heads
out there? I have to you know, there's there's a
lot of dad's out there. The But this is this
is our podcast about movies. It is we take an
intersectional feminist approach to analyzing movies, using the Bechdel Test

(01:05):
as a jumping off point, which, of course is a
media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called
the Bechtel Wallace Test. Our version of this test is
as follows. Uh, two people of a marginalized gender have
to have names, and they have to speak to each

(01:26):
other about something other than a man or at least
two lines. There is there is a next. I think
we just added a caveat though, because if it is yes,
Um Jackson and suddenly having a British accent, it does
automatically pass the Bechdel tests. There is correct, There are
of course, you know, it's a complicated, ongoing conversation about

(01:47):
it's always it's always evolving. It's yeah, it's always evolving,
it's always growing. Um. There's there's a lot of caveats
that we keep including, and that is yes. That is
a very important one. I think you'll agree. I agree, Um.
But today we are going to do something a little
different than we normally do, UM, because we have an

(02:08):
incredible guest, Um that we want to talk about her
most recent work before we kind of get into today's movie,
which is den of Thieves, Um, which is the longest
movie in the entire world. Even though it's not the
longest movie I've ever seen, it felt so long and
it is in like I don't I'm like it is.

(02:32):
I feel like it's a copaganda Ganda trend for the
whole movie to appear like CPI a tone for reasons
I don't know. Um, yeah, certain subgenres of copaganda do that. Yeah,
it's a thing. But but first we we really wanted
to spotlight our guests where she's really amazing. So let's

(02:52):
let's get her in here. Yes, let's do it. She
is a freelance reporter. She is UH covering, has covered
currently being released a story in knock l a entitled
A Tradition of Violence the History of Deputy Gangs in
the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. It's series Castle Welcome, Hi, welcome,

(03:15):
than so much for having me. Of course you being here,
We're yeah, we're super excited to talk to you about UM,
about your your work and this. It's going to be
thirteen parts, is that correct? Yeah, so that was our
original plan. Um. This week, UM, a bunch of information

(03:36):
was released about the band Too's gang on Monday. There
was some additional names attached to a lawsuit that was
brought by a deputy against UM the Bandito's Gang at
the East Los Angeles station. So that's sort of adding
to my plate. So that series might get a little
bit longer, just surpending on UM, you know what happens.

(03:59):
But as of now, Gas thirteen parts incredible. I mean,
as of as of this recording, five parts are out
and it's I mean, it's so well reported. Thank you
so much for for doing it. I know how much
you know labor had to have gone into it, and
I want to make sure that our listeners UM sort
of have a baseline of knowledge of of what the

(04:21):
series is UM about. So could you tell us a
little bit about, UM how you know, how you went
about reporting this and UM kind of what the what
the arc of of what you're talking about in this
series is. Yeah. So I this started when I received

(04:42):
a list of litigation that the County of Los Angeles
keeps track of of cases that were brought where deputies
were alleged to be involved in deputy gangs. And from
that case, it's about sixty different cases totaling about fifty
five million dollar ers in settlements. UM I just started

(05:03):
looking into the different deputies that were involved in those cases,
and it turned out that they had been involved in
other shootings and other beatings and all other kinds of
UM crime. And from there, UM I started putting things
together and was able to UM sort of figure out

(05:26):
the history of deputy gangs in Los Angeles County. UM.
They've been in existence since at least the early nineteen seventies,
and over that time they have cost tax payers UM
at least a hundred million dollars in settlement money UM
from people that they have killed or beaten or otherwise
UM physically harmed. UM. The deputy gangs have a lot

(05:50):
of influence UM. They generally are UM. Their members are
in positions of power at different stations throughout the department,
so they can UM in charge of things like scheduling, UM,
who gets promoted, who UM goes out to, what call when?
Who gets back up, who doesn't UM. They essentially run

(06:12):
the department. UM. We know of about eighteen different gangs
UM that are present throughout the department. UM. There's probably
more that we don't know about UM, but we have
been able to come up with solid reporting on eighteen
different gangs, and we are releasing what we found in
this series that will be running through the end of

(06:34):
the month. It's I mean, it's so incredibly well reported
in the way that you're you're kind of laying it
out historically of how far things go back, and it
quickly becomes a very depressing UM. You know, what is
like the corkboard with five hundred strings attached. UM, because

(06:55):
there is I mean it, there's so much overlap in
the and you continue to see people who have murdered
people being promoted and UM that your piece room today
that I thought was fascinating and very bleak, was that internally,
any whistleblower who even attempted to um, to speak out

(07:17):
against something like that internally would be it seems like
consistently punished and never promoted. All right, So I go ahead, yeah,
oh yeah, I was just gonna say that's the case
for most of the whistleblowers. I mean, there were some
cases that you know, I know about that unfortunately I
wasn't even able to report on because they're under protective seal.

(07:39):
That's UM an interesting element for a lot of these cases,
you know, because a lot so many of them are settled.
Nine times out of ten they settle, a lot of
this information remains secret when it doesn't go to trial,
that stuff remains sealed, whereas when it does go to trial,
it becomes public record. So a lot of these whistleblowers,
when they settled, the Department had them sign agreements that

(08:02):
they cannot speak about the terms of their settlement, their case, UM,
you know, what their agreement was, etcetera. So there's a
lot more dirt there that unfortunately, it's it's very difficult
to find out about. That's like, and the fact that
you you have been able to report so much based
on what is available, which sounds like a fraction of

(08:22):
what actually has happened, speaks uh a lot. I'm curious
about the process of UM reporting this story UM, and
I feel like that it will be interesting to our
listeners as well. I mean, I think you're you're sort
of just referencing it. But what were the sort of
UM roadblocks you were coming up against in the process

(08:45):
of reporting this story over the past is it six months? Yeah? Okay, yeah,
I think probably the first UM roadblock UM one that
I was quickly able to get over thanks to the
help of knock l A is just the cost of
this stuff. I mean, all this stuff is public record,
but you still have to pay for it, and that
quickly adds up. UM. Just reporting this piece cost about

(09:08):
three thousand dollars alone. UM. Yeah, and there's there's a
lot more that I want to continue to do, so
it will cost more money. But I think you know,
that's one thing that people don't really think about, is
you know, just like the access to this stuff. It's
it's very hard to get, Like for me a journalist,
like not to just like think how hard it might

(09:29):
be to a family that's trying to you know, navigate
the system and you know, get some kind of justice
for their loved one. Another roadblock that I ran up
against is just UM. You know, these files have a
habit of strangely disappearing UM. Even though these records are
supposed to be kept UM, several of them had been

(09:51):
destroyed when I went down to pick them up UM,
and I never really got a full explanation of that. UM.
The clerks that it had been a mistake or UM
some unusual occurrence. I believe it was the term that
he used. But there were several files that UM had
been destroyed or they just couldn't locate that they were

(10:12):
supposed to be in the courthouse, and when I went
down there, the clerk just couldn't find them. UM. There
have also I've also had UM just like crazy sort
of scenarios happened when I've tried to pick things up,
Like I was trying to pick up something that was
on micro film, and the the person working told me

(10:34):
that the water main in the basement of the courthouse
had broken and destroyed all the micro film and I
would have to write a letter to the county UM
explaining why I needed it, and then the county would
decide whether or not to grant my request. UM. And
that's something that I'm still dealing with. But yeah, it

(10:56):
can be. It can be really crazy trying to just
like deal with it's you know, getting your hands on
public records. There's always some like random obstacle that will
pop up in your way, and it's not always clear
why that's happening. Yeah, it's always, I mean, it is always.
So it doesn't feel like it should be legal to

(11:16):
charge such high rates to access what are I mean?
Then it's almost like, well I hesitate to even call
it public records if they're if they're not available um
to anybody. And introducing that cost barrier is such a
huge thing, and it sounds like, um, you know, based
on what you're just describing that it's a full time job,

(11:37):
like getting your hands on on these records. And it's
of course especially with UM with families and friends of
people who have been victimized by the police. They like,
not everyone has that time, you know, it's like everyone
has a live their lives, and that's UM so frustrating.
I'm I'm glad that you were able to, you know,

(11:59):
kind of get as much as as you did, but
it sounds incredibly frustrating and complicated. UM oh yeah, oh yeah.
You have to like make appointments to go down there. Um.
Everything is time limited because of COVID protocols UM, which
adds a whole other layers. Sometimes if your record is
UM past a certain year, UM, they just won't give

(12:21):
it to you. UM. And that's something that I'm dealing
with right now. There are some records that I wanted
that they're past a certain cutoff date, and because that
they're in a room that is reserved for old records,
I've been told that they're just not going into that
room because of coronavirus and there is no end date
to COVID, So they're telling me that there's theoretically no

(12:45):
date that they'll be going into that room, which is illegal. UM.
But you know, like I said, you get all kinds
of crazy things when you're when you're trying to navigate that. Yeah. Especially,
it's like I don't even understand that argument of like, oh,
coronavirus is lurking in that no one goes into like

(13:05):
it doesn't make it sounds like an excuse. It sounds
like a lot of these quote public records are like
public with a lot of caveats. Yeah. Um, to get
into a little more, I I really um appreciated how
at the beginning of and we're gonna link um that

(13:27):
all the pieces for um, if you're listening the it
will be linked in the description of this episode. But um,
you open each um section by listing what the legal
definition of a gang is, and then um, each installment
sort of um, you know, unpacks another element or incident
um that the L A s. D. Gangs have committed.

(13:51):
Uh So I wanted to just read that definition because
I know that particularly it seems like older people sometimes
have difficulty wrapping their head around gangs within the police
and they're like, well, how how how could that be?
And you lay it out at the beginning and of
every single piece. Um, so it's oh my gosh, it's

(14:15):
under section one six point to two of the California
Penal Code. UM, a criminal gang is described as any
organization or group of three or more people that one
has a common name or identifying sign or symbol, two
has as one of its primary activities the commission of
one of the long list of California criminal offenses, and

(14:37):
three whose members have engaged in a pattern of criminal
gang activity, either alone or together. And so, of course
the sheriff's gangs you're reporting on very much, uh fit
that description. So I wanted to ask, just for our
listeners who aren't really aware, what are the kind of

(14:58):
through lines of activities it happened with in these gangs
and um, yeah, just kind of common patterns that you
identified throughout the reporting process. Yeah. The the one, you know,
commission of crime that we've seen in you know, almost
every gang that we've covered is of course murder. Um. No,

(15:19):
we've also seen extortion of other deputies in the station. Um.
They'll hold these what they call fund raisers where it's
unclear where the money is exactly going, and they'll pressure
their colleagues into giving them money. UM. Paul Tanaka actually
UM had this special cigar smoking club at the Sheriff's

(15:39):
headquarters and you could get in if you gave them
five hundred dollars. Um, that's a big one. They regularly
beat people up. Um, I've heard accounts of rape. UM.
So I mean, like it's really anything mhm. It's in
particularly in the I think it's the third piece Lynwood's

(16:02):
Worst Nightmare that details the crimes of the Vikings Gang
is you know, have heavy content warning, but was just
so completely eye opening for me that those were crimes
that I had never heard about before, and it seems
like it was just they were absolutely rampaging and targeting

(16:25):
you know, black and brown people in Lyndwood NonStop for
for weeks and months. Yeah. Yeah, that the Lynwood stuff.
I mean that that went on for years. And one
thing that really um makes me really upset is just
hearing about, um, hearing from some of the deputies that

(16:48):
participated in this stuff. Um. You know, one guy that
I wrote about in in that piece was Cliff Yates,
who went on to be involved in the beating death
of a man at Men's Central Jail about twelve years ago,
almost to the day. That man's name was John Horton
UM and Cliff Yates, UM. You know, he went on

(17:11):
to have he was promoted within the department. Um, he
retired and receives a six figure pension. UM. He lives
in Florida, and as far as I know, he was
never really disciplined UM for any of the incidents that
I'm that I know that he was involved in. UM.

(17:31):
He's written a book where he details his career as
a law enforcement officer over the past thirty years. UM.
He describes police work as hunting for humans UM. And
he's just like, I'm very frightened really by how someone

(17:53):
can view UM their work in a in a way
like that, Like how they can look at the terror
that they inflicted on a community and such a in
such a distorted light. It really frightens me. Absolutely. Yeah,
it's in the I don't know, it's just the normalization

(18:16):
of that attitude. It's like, I don't know, something that
you you know, but then just just hearing it come
out of someone's mouth, and to know that they're being
they're absurdly wealthy, you know, and then they're like still
living on the taxpayers dime after not being held to
account for murder, and and now they're you know, living

(18:37):
in a mansion in Florida. Whatever it is that UM
that they're doing. Yeah, I I Um, that piece in particular,
really was I mean, it's disturbing like that, the way
in the in the way that it's laid out. UM. Yeah,

(19:00):
I guess another question that I had, were there any
I guess in the process of reporting this, Were there
any moments where you truly like, were there is there
like one moment that kind of sticks out when interview
just um, yeah, because I know it was such a
long process. Um. God, I would say probably there are

(19:26):
several moments that stick out, And I would say the
ones that really stick with me are when I contact
a family to tell them that the person that killed
their loved one killed somebody else. Um. And that really sucks. Um.

(19:54):
And that's probably like what sticks with me the most,
just being that like bearer of bad news um, and
just like having to tell them that, you know, like
your case didn't really make a difference. Um, nothing changed,

(20:15):
This person was promoted, this person is still on the
streets like doing the same ship that he did to
your family. UM. And that just like really brings the
story home to me. I mean that's like, you know
why I did it. I Mean, this stuff has been
going on for years. I've been hearing about gangs in

(20:36):
the Sheriff's apartment since I was a kid. Um, So
you know, I hope that by talking about it and
bringing more attention to this, we can hopefully see some
changes in the structure. Absolutely, I mean I I sincerely
hope that this series ends up having a demonstrable effect

(20:57):
because there's there's just just so so much. It's overwhelming.
Um yeah, I'm I'm And that sounds incredibly emotionally taxing
for for everyone. I mean yeah, for for for you
and for the families, and it's just absolutely brutal. But
I'm I'm glad that Um it's you know, there's been

(21:21):
light shed on it, um, and so I guess, uh
to to kind of close out unless there's stuff we
haven't touched on that you would like to Um, what
do you you know? But by the time this series
has concluded, what do you hope, um, people take away
from it or what effect do you hope that that

(21:42):
the series has? Ah? Well, I mean, I'd love everyone
in Los Angeles County who have read the series. I
don't know how realistic that is, but that that would
be my dream. I would love everyone in l A
County just to be aware of what's happening in the
department these you know, I think I really think this

(22:02):
has been able to be an open secret for the
past fifty years, and I think we really knew people
actively engaged and talking about it. UM. That would be
my primary goal. I'd love to I'd love to see
the Board of Supervisors UM call me in to talk
about my reporting. And you know, I'd love to help

(22:24):
them with an investigation. I'd love to assess, like any
anyone with an investigation, I'm happy to turn over what
I know. UM, That's what I'd love to see. UM.
I think at the very minimum, there needs to be
an audit of the department. UM. At the minimum. And
there are people that have been in this space for
a lot longer than I have that have come up

(22:45):
with some great solutions. UM that you know, if people
are so inclined to engage with that, like, I'd really
recommend checking them out, like to check the Shaff Coalition
for example. UM. Yeah, I'd love to see more people
tapped in with them. UM. That's what I'd love to see. Yeah, absolutely,
And I would recommend. I mean, even if you live
outside of l A County, it's the lessons and that

(23:09):
you and and what you can take away from having
read this series is applicable to anyone. UM, you know,
living in a place with the Sheriff's Department like the
l A s D is egregiously bad. But it's not
like you know, these crimes are beholden to l A
like that. It's it's widely applicable reporting that everyone should

(23:29):
definitely UM check out. And and I do think it's
UM it's great that not l A was able to
help fund and publish it as well, because it seems
like the kind of report that you know, it could
only be done at an independent news source where it
seems like there's always so many UM blockages when you

(23:52):
when you're working with a huge mainstream source, which I
know you have. UM, I just think that they don't
want to do it to be perfect really honest with
you speak to that. I'm so curious, UM what your
thoughts on that are, because I know you've worked on
kind of both both sides of that line. Yeah, I mean,

(24:15):
just to be candid, I mean, this information has been
out there for the past fifty years. Major institutions have
had the funding UM to go after this information. They've
had the access to the information. UM. The reason that
they didn't do it, and from where I'm standing is
it just wasn't an interest. This affects black and brown people,

(24:38):
This affects low income people, and those aren't communities that
newspapers have seen or not just newspapers, but that major
media outlets have not viewed as a priority. UM really ever,
So that's why it didn't get done. It's the same
reason that the Grim Sleeper UM, a serial killer in

(24:59):
South Los Angeles was able to terrorize the community for
almost forty years and kill with impunity that never really
got any news coverage. It's the same reason why deputy
gangs in those same neighborhoods don't get any news coverage. Absolutely, yeah,
I thank you, thank you for your insight on that too,

(25:19):
because it's UM. It's also it's shocking just reading through
your reporting, how you know like it it would have
taken reporting and funding, but like you say, it has
it's not like there's ever been any shortage of available
funds to do that. It's the willingness and UM prioritizing
uh black and brown people in reporting, which just doesn't

(25:42):
seem to ever happen in mainstream reporting. Um, yeah, I
is there is there anything else you want to hit
on before we kind of start transitioning into den of
thieves stuff. Yeah, I would just say, um, you know,
please check out the series, and you know, we've talked

(26:03):
about how expensive this is. If you're so inclined, like,
please send a dollar to to the knock Patreon. I'd
love to continue doing this research and you know, any
help I can get as much appreciated. Absolutely, and I
guess I should full disclosure and say that I right
there as well. I was like, I don't know what
the right point in the episode to put it is,
but it's now. Um yeah, thank you, yeah, thank you

(26:29):
again for doing this reporting and putting in all of
this time and effort to shed light on this thing
that I'll admit I really didn't know anything about until
I started reading Your Peace. I knew about, you know,
corruption and racism and violence inflicted on different communities by

(26:51):
law enforcement, but I didn't know the extent to which
they were like things you could, like you can classify
as gangs operating in the sheriff's department. So I was
I was just like, oh, well, I mean it makes sense,
but but I just didn't know anything about it. So, yeah,

(27:12):
thank you again for for doing this reporting and shedding
light on this. Yeah, it's my pleasure so to kind
of transition into what into like getting us to den
of thieves stuff, because there's so much to talk about their. UM.
We really want to talk with you about how cops

(27:33):
are presented to us in media. It's something we've talked
about in this on the show before, but I don't
think extremely in depth. UM. And Yeah, I guess I'm
just kind of curious of your um, your opinion on
how particularly movies for our purposes, but how media UM

(27:54):
has very deliberately shaped what our view of cops and
and in this case specifically UM, the Sheriff's Department has
been over the years. Yeah, I've been watching a lot
of cop um media UM while reporting this piece. UM,

(28:15):
I've just really been living with it. My favorite Hell,
I don't know, I just I don't know. I've really
like solidly in like corrupt cop world. My favorite show
right now is The Shield, which is UM a whole
other thing. UM. But yeah, I one thing that really

(28:38):
fascinates me about how cops are presented and all of
these cases is that they're Um, they're always sort of
given this um personality of like the the hard charging,
like badass rule breaker. Um, they're never like we never
hear a story about a quote unquote like good cop

(28:58):
who like does every thing by the book. Um, you know,
has like a good relationship with their community. It's always
these like assholes that are shooting everybody and like that's
accepted as really cool in the world that they live in.
It's so and it's like even there's a moment in

(29:19):
then of Thieves that I will get to where it's like, yeah,
if if a cop is like doing something by the book,
like everyone just calls him a dork and they like
call him a loser and make fun of his shoes
and then continue to uh break the law, it's yeah wild. Yeah.

(29:42):
The framing of a lot of like just movies and
media about cops is yeah, you're totally right. It's like
these you know, I don't play by the ruse kind
of cowboys that they're they're but they're still framed is
like the heroes who do this competent police work and

(30:05):
who saved the day and who catch the quote bad
guys and you know, just like all the framing of this,
um which it is like straight up propaganda this you
know this, And I didn't even again I'll admit that,
like I didn't. I fell for it for so long,

(30:26):
and um, it's just like oh God. And then and
then of Thieves, I mean, we'll get into it, but
it's it's doing a lot of the same stuff that
we've seen before, except it's five hours long and like
so absurdly, I who and then he's British at the end,

(30:50):
and then and then I feel like we all really
learned something. Um, well, should we take a quick break
and then come back and get into the movie? All right,
we'll be back in a moment, and we're back. We're back.
Um so yeah, I I donna Thieves. Is I mean

(31:10):
ripe for discussion of how cops and how specifically the
L A s D is portrayed in mediate series. You
probably you definitely know way way more about this than
we do. Is this, does the L A s D
is are they? Like? I know, the L A p
D comes up in movies and media constantly, but does

(31:32):
the l S l A s D come up very
much in in media that you know of? Yeah, I've
actually started compiling a list of m l A law
enforcement in media as far as l A s D
to my knowledge, Um, they have a documentary about them
called l A County seven that was produced for TV

(31:54):
I believe in the late eighties or early nineties. Den
of Thieves of course. Um. And there's a recent movie
out with Jared Leto and Denzel Washington called The Little Things,
which and Robbie Malick, and that's about the Los Angeles
County Sheriff's apartment as well. Is there anything you've seen
that you feel like? I haven't seen The Little Things,

(32:17):
Um yet I forgot that it came out, honestly, but
like it is. Are there any portrayals of the l
A s D that you think have been appropriately critical
that has come out or is it mostly kind of
like badass cop stuff? Um? I've never seen anything critical
of law enforcement in a movie or television show. I mean,

(32:42):
I like to say that this shield is satire. Um,
But my girlfriend just sort of rolls her eyes at
me and walks away when I bring that conversations at
the table the Galaxy brain take, Yeah, I was thinking
of I was going through just kind of like the
list of episodes we've done that I was like, oh there, Yeah,

(33:05):
the protagonists of this movie is like a night Like
even movies like fucking Fargo. You're like, oh no, I've
I've been duped into thinking that, like, well cop is
a woman now, so it's all all good. It's like,
oh yeah. The media around a sheriff's department, not the

(33:29):
Los Angeles one but that. But that I've been most
exposed to has been Reno on One, which is a
show that I do love and think is very funny,
but it's like one of the things that duped me
where I'm like, oh, this show about these sheriffs, they're
all such lovable goofs t he and uh that's probably
not how they actually are in real life. Yeah, there's

(33:56):
it's it's it is over like it's genuinely overwhelming of
how much copaganda there is and how many genres it spans,
because like you're saying, Caitlin, like, there's cop comedies, and
there's like you know, there's kind of the the Den
of Thieves genre of like Sepia toned intense glorification of

(34:18):
being a horrible cop, and then there's like the procedurals.
There's just there's it's so pervasive that it's I don't know, yeah,
I got um. I became overwhelmed by it. And then
there's literally the show Cops, which is like every um my,
my uncle's love it so much and it is so

(34:39):
harmful and scary. Um. But yeah, so today we're we're
kind of zoning in. Um um. I guess this is
like more of what I think of automatically when I
think of copaganda, is like the den of thieves, vibe
of the badass cop who he can't leave his work

(35:00):
at work. And there were like moments in this movie
where I was I guess I was like kind of
like you watching the Shield series, where like are they
are they trying to say something critical? But then in
the next thing you're like, oh, just kidding, just kidding,
just kidding, He's amazing. He just drinks a little bit.
Like it's just so it's a lot, let's talk about it. Yeah. Um, well,

(35:28):
I guess is the um Should I just do the recap? Then? Well, yeah, discuss, yes,
feel free to jump in during the recap. I can't
tell if this movie has a really convoluted plot or
if it's like three sentences long. The plot doesn't make

(35:56):
any sense. There are several like key plot holes, like
the first being that oh, Jackson like couldn't have joined
the Marine Corps with a juvenile criminal record, Like I
didn't think of that. Yeah. Also, there's so many like
convenient things that happen, like the ordering of the food

(36:19):
and getting delivered and the exact right, like I don't know. Yeah,
So here's the story that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Um by Christian Buda Gast. I like to like that.
It's it's an outtour piece by Mr Christian Buda Gast
and we're like who um. So the movie opens with

(36:42):
like text on the screen with statistics that say, um,
that in Los Angeles, uh, which is the bank robbery
capital of the world. Um, banks are robbed times a year. Uh.
We see then an armored car being robbed. The cups
show up. There's a big shootout between the gang of

(37:06):
robbers or the Den of Thieves and yeah, them and
the police and the Den of thieves managed to escape
with the armored car and the their leader is Ray Merriman. UM.

(37:29):
Fifty cent is also there playing a character whose name
I never figured out. Um, my favorite I heard about
the fifty cent character is that at one point because
he like works out in his garage and you see
he has a stadium arcadium red hot chiliea yester. I
was like, wait, does that get's in my notes? I

(37:50):
was like, whose poster is that the stadium arcadium? My mind?
I was like his cent my brother, Like what going on?
I loved that little character detail. He's a red hot
chili pepper. His fan his name Hagan. Let me look
at IMDb. His name is oh ensign Laveau. Yeah. Um.

(38:17):
And then Donnie is also there. That's o'she Jackson Jr. Um.
There's also this guy named Bosco, so that's that's the
Den of Thieves. Then we cut to big nick a K.
Gerard Butler himself. Wait that that that is? Who? Oh

(38:40):
my gosh, that completely slipped my mind. Yeah, it's the
unfortunate truth that he played the Phantom of the Opera
really badly. Holy sh it. I don't know who I
thought it was, but I did not remember it being
Gerard Butler. Wow, um, and settle you with that. I'm broken,

(39:00):
so broken right now. M Gerard Butler and I I
was an extra on a movie that he was the
star of. If anyone remembers. I think it was called
The Bounty Hunter for Anniston's also in it. Um, I
was an extra in that movie. You're welcome, everybody, congratulations. Um,

(39:23):
Gerard Butler and I did make eye contact on that
set for a brief moment, and um, that is my
that's my story about Gerard Butler. Anyway, his career is
very um all over the place. There's just like a
lot going because wasn't he in that movie p S.
I Love You? Is that was that him? Or remember

(39:45):
that Irish guy? Yes? Oh he was like dead husband
and damn I that movie was really forced down my
throat in like middle school or whenever I came in.
He's also in that. There's a rom com it's called
like The Ugly Truth or something with with Katherine Heigel.
I want to say, isn't it He's It's just he's

(40:07):
got what we're saying wild. Um, yeah, he's He's. It's
but it's like he really he's bad. He's been bad
in every genre. It's really interesting. He's a great example.
Yeah yeah, yeah, he's He's really blown it in so

(40:30):
many different genres. I almost respect it. Yeah. Okay, So anyway,
Big Nick is the head of Major Crimes of the
Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. I think, I don't know what
anyone's title is, but he's in charge of this investigation.
He goes to the crime scene. We learned that the

(40:53):
armored truck that the den of thieves stole was empty,
and so they're like, well, why would they steal an
empty ruck? What's going on? And how did they know
about the drop offs and the roots and all this stuff? Um,
And then they know of Merriman. Merriman if what is
his name, Mary Mary Mary Merriman and his band of
Merryman to either of you remember he was like in

(41:16):
a bunch of Disney Channel original movies, Ryan Merriman. He
played the little leprechron in Luck of the Irish. That's
who I was thinking of the entire movie. That actors
in a bunch of d cops he said, like old
old ones, like he was in Luck of the Irish.
He I think he was decapitated in Final Destination three,

(41:39):
amongst other Those are his top two credits I could
think of. Of course, Wow, Okay, so they know about
Merriman and they think that he might behind it. He
might be like behind this rubbery. Where did they get
his name from? Like, we don't literally just were like,
what if it's Merriman? Like I did not even think.

(42:01):
I was like, I guess I just didn't question it.
But they didn't, like they just they just knew about it. Yeah,
he's famous. He's a famous den of thief. Um. So
he So then Nick pays a visit to Donnie, who

(42:22):
the cops um you know, to be an associate of Merriman.
I'm not really sure how they know that either, but anyway, ah,
Nick and his deputies interrogate Donnie, and Donnie breaks and
tells them that he is, in fact kidnap. They kidnap him, Yeah,
they they him. They kidnap him, take him to a

(42:46):
hotel room where they're partying with some sex workers. Unceremoniously.
I was like, I don't even even think they got
featured extra, Like they unceremoniously are they're dismissed from the
scene without ever having said a word. They're just and
they were just guided out and you're like, oh, okay,

(43:06):
And they are the first women who even appear on
the screen in the entire movie. And it takes about
twenty minutes for them to show up. So until then,
it's just a lot of toxic men, and then it's
still a lot of toxic men after that. But sometimes
you see a woman sprinkled throughout a scene. Um, okay,

(43:28):
So yeah, Nick abducts Uh and interrogates Donnie, and Donnie
breaks and tells him that he is a driver from Merriman,
and he tells him about a previous job they pulled together,
and then Nick, let's Donnie go, and he's like, we'll
be in touch. Another thing I want to bring up
is that in that scene he shows Donnie his regulator tattoo, Which, Okay,

(43:50):
let's let's because I felt like those early scenes were
the most specific to the l A. S D and
break it down for us. Yeah, so I mean that
whole interrogation thing, like I've read through um like reviews
that the county puts out of incidents that officers get

(44:11):
in trouble for it, and that's like not too far
off from some real instances that I've read about with
l A County Sheriff's deputy is um the tattoo, I mean,
that's a real deputy gang. The Regulators is a deputy
gang that operated out of the Century Station. Um, and yeah,
I mean all of that is very very true, looking

(44:35):
very not true, far from reality. Um, that's that's how
these deputy gangs go down. It's so and it's it's
like the way it's presented is so bizarre too, because it,
especially after reading your reporting, you're like, oh, this is
something that could conceivably have happened, but we're not supposed
to think it's bad. Like it's the way that it's

(44:57):
framed to the viewer is so manipulative and bizarre, even
though it seems like it's showing some pretty true to life,
um interaction potential interactions. Yeah, yeah, I almost like missed
it the first time I watched the movie. He was
just like, see my tattoo where what you might call

(45:18):
part of a gang. And then yeah, at least we're
a clique, which is what which is the term that
you know people in law enforcement currently is when they're
talking about these gangs, like they're very happy to admit
most of the time under oath that they're part of
a clique a deputy click. Um. So yeah, I mean

(45:41):
that was very true to life. Two things that he
said that I wrote down was we just shoot you
it's less paperwork, um, which I mean yeah, I mean
attorneys have told me as much that it's easier for
these deputies to kill people rather than have them live.
When they live. They've had an attorney say to me,

(46:01):
that's the deputy's worst nightmare because they can challenge the
police as narrative of them being in fear for the life,
and it just makes things a lot harder. So yeah,
that attitude is very true to life. Um. He also
tells Donnie, you're not the bad guys we are, which

(46:21):
is again it's like it's so it like made my
head hurt, um Like, because if you see that on paper,
you're like, oh, yeah, that seems to be pretty accurate.
But the way that the movie frames it and the
where that like exists in context with the rest of
the story makes it seem like this like bizarre joke.

(46:44):
I don't know. It's so I kept, yeah, I kept
expecting like the arc of the rest of the story
to go very very differently, that like you'd see more
examples of them being the bad guys in a way
that like the movie is actually framing them as being

(47:06):
the bad guys, but the movie frames them as like Nope,
they're good at police, and they're the people you're supposed
to be rooting for. I think I don't know who
you're supposed to be rooting for in this movie, actually
because I found no one to be redeemable. No, no
one was redeemable. But I mean I definitely wasn't rooting

(47:26):
for the regulators. Um. I mean I think as far
as like when we're looking at like who did the
most harm? Like, I think the den of thieves like
hurt a lot less people, right. I think Donnie's worst
crime was, you know, giving those two poor women some
expired Chinese hoods. It does seem like they were mostly

(47:48):
uh yeah, I mean it was like they were the
crimes were victimless. They were taking money. Oh maybe that's wait.
I just had a moment. I think I know why
he's called merry men. Is it like, isn't that a
Robin hood thing? Robin and taking from the rich and
giving to the Oh, my seventh grade English teacher is

(48:09):
so th hells right now? Um yeah, it's like that
they were not hurting anybody in there, or at least originally,
it seems like, I mean, the regulators are Throughout the
plot um, like hurting people, at least if they you know,
like you're introduct like your introduction to o'sh Jackson in

(48:31):
any details him being abducted and physically harmed and all
sorts of offensive, like they say racist stuff to him,
they say homophobic stuff to him. They it's just they
locked his body in a really weird way. It's so
like there. But then the marketing for this movie, so

(48:52):
I think that that was I would be really curious
to know the the editing process for a script like this,
or like if the original draft of this script could
have potentially been more ambiguous, I guess, than than what
you kind of end up with. But the marketing definitely
wants you to think good guys versus bad guys, Like
even down to the way that the poster is designed,

(49:13):
it's the bad guys are like in like their upside down,
and the good guys a k a. As the movie
would have you believe that the regulators are like in
the kind of dominant position. And I was even watching,
I was curious what the press tour for this movie was, like. Um,
so I watched and it was mostly just like fift

(49:35):
and Gerard Butler being friends in a way that was
like I don't need to watch this, um, but I
watched them. But but they would also present the story,
uh in that way, like when introducing the movie, it's like, oh,
you know, it's like a good guy bad guy. It's
kind of like Heat a movie I've never seen but
I know is about cops. Another long boring like Tuk

(49:58):
that movie. Ah, but but I just found it, like yeah,
like that this at least the marketing narrative for this movie,
even though there are lines like we are the bad guys,
is that the regulators are in fact the good guys,
or that's the pitch. It's very it's so it made

(50:21):
my head hurt. And part of what like and we'll
talk about this too, but the well, what's what happens
next in the story is that um Nick's his wife
leaves him because he's been cheating on her. But I
feel like the women are there too, like humanize Big

(50:42):
Nick a bit and like make us feel empathy or
try to make the audience feel empathetic towards him. Um
So that's that's happening. He's being divorced. Um And then meanwhile, Merriman,
Donny and the rest of the den of thieves, UH
start make start making plans to rob the Los Angeles

(51:04):
branch of the Federal Reserve, which is the only bank
in l A that's never been successfully robbed because it's
under such tight security. And their plan is that an
average of thirty million dollars in cash gets destroyed every day,
which I was curious if that's true, because if it is,

(51:27):
what a horrifying fact um A great idea, just there's
literally So they're planning to rob this thirty million dollars
in cash on this particular day and it gets destroyed

(51:50):
because it's considered like old and unfit um, which means
that it's untraceable and no one's going to be looking
for it, so they're going to try to steal it. Um. Meanwhile,
Nick and his crew of deputies start tailing uh Merriman's
den of thieves. They're fucking with them, They're letting them

(52:13):
know you we're on to you. Uh. And then Donnie
is kind of playing both sides. You know, He's he's
telling the cops stuff about this heist. He's telling Merriman
that he's been talking to the cops. You know, he's
kind of in the middle This is where the part
of the movie that I began to grow very confused, Like,

(52:35):
there's the middle of this movie is really long, and
I couldn't I don't. I didn't understand what was going
on well enough to tell when someone was lying about
what was going on, and UM ended up really becoming distressed.
I did not know what right. And then okay, so

(52:59):
then the before the big heist, the Den of Thieves
rob a small local bank, which Big Nick has been
tipped off about, so he heads there. Um, but the robbers,
the Den of Thieves, they don't do their usual thing.
This time. They make demands, they take and kill hostages,

(53:20):
or so we are led to believe. Um, but wait
a minute. Turns out that this was all to create
a diversion to distract the cops and give the Den
of Thieves time to pull off the real heist at
the Federal at the Federal Reserve, which Nick eventually figures
out is what's happening, And then we see the heist

(53:43):
in progress. They use the armored truck that they stole
to pose as And I don't know if they're like
guys who work for the Federal Reserve or it's like
some entity that like drops the money off at the
serve from the banks. So they pretend to be these guys.

(54:03):
They drop off the money that they stole from this
small bank um at the Federal Reserve. Donnie is inside
one of the containers of money and then we see
him do a bunch of heist stuff when when they
like a little cube, You're like, oh, it's nice. They
were like twenty minutes of this movie that I was like, oh,

(54:24):
I'm this is because I love a heist movie. I
love to watch a heist and I was I was like, Okay,
this is this is fun. I'm enjoying this. They they're
cutting the power, you know, there's all that kind of
heisty stuff fall very national treasure. It's exciting. Yeah. So
then um, Donnie gets the money that was going to

(54:46):
be destroyed. He prevents it from being shredded. He puts
it in bags and then he throws it in I
guess like a trash shoot. And then all of the
den of thieves managed to escape. Uh. They high jack
the dump truck and get the bags of money, but
oh no, Big Nick and his deputies pick up Donnie.

(55:10):
Then they find the rest of the robbers there's this
huge shootout with all of the Den of thieves being
It's like so many cars around them, Um, how many
civilian casualties were? Like it seemed like they're the highway
was full of people, but then all of a sudden

(55:31):
there were only the four main cast members like it was.
It was was so confusing, I'm not sure. Um. So
they kill all the car the deputy, the Sheriff's kill
the den of thieves. But wait a minute, the money
that they stole, it's not there. And then when Nick

(55:52):
gets back to his car, Donnie has escaped because it
turns out Donnie was the mastermind of the whole heigh
He had been tricking everyone. He's the one who got
the money. And then we cut to him in London
with a British accent that I I Am not sure
how authentic we're convincing it is, um, and he's you know,

(56:14):
he's planning another heist. He goes diamond exchange drinks on me. Mates.
You're like, okay, sure, so that's the story. Let's take
another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss

(56:40):
car back. Um, I guess to start um series, we
we we sort of talked a little bit about the
the interrogation scene at the beginning of the movie already
when they kidnapped Donnie. Um, were there other um elements Uh, regardless,
kind of I guess regardless to start of how they're
being framed, But were there other specifics about the L

(57:01):
A s. D. That jumped out to you in in
the way UM that this movie is kind of written
and presented. Yeah, it was really just like sort of
like taken by like how many references to the gangs
that they were in this movie. I Mean there's that
scene UM where he shows the tattoo and he's beating Donnie. UM.

(57:24):
Donnie also makes reference to being incarcerated at Wayside UM,
which is a facility that's home to another deputy gang
called the Wayside Whitey's, which UM is like a KKK
type gang that regularly terrorizes UM black inmates. UM. So
that was also just sort of like huh okay, like

(57:45):
another open secret. UM. Gerard Butler big Nick when they're
outside the bank and they're sort of running surveillance on
this UM smaller bank that the den of Thieves is
going to rob UM, he says that they let it
go down because the Dunafee has had to commit a

(58:07):
crime um in order for them to do something. As
soon as they got out of the car with those
assault rifles, the crime was being committed, which I mean
it tracks um as far as the L A S
d UM just sort of like you know, letting things

(58:28):
happen and stepping in, you know, when they think it
will be to their advantage. There have been several cases
like that that I've covered. Um. Yeah, that seemed very
realistic to me. Wow, it's it. So this movie is
written and directed by Christian Gooda Gast, who is from

(58:49):
what I can tell, he's soap opera nepotism and also
Caitlin relevant to our interest, the guy who plays John
Jacob asked her in Titanic Christian Gourda Ghast is his son,
so he's also Titanic nepotism. Whoa John Jacobaster the richest

(59:11):
man on the ship famously the riches man on the ship.
R I P. It's just kidding. He probably was horrible, UM,
but Christian Goods is nepotism of that. UM. I would
be really curious to know where his because it does
seem like you're saying series he's referencing a lot of

(59:32):
hyper specifics UM and he grew up in l A.
So I'm like, it maybe is some cultural osmosis going
on there. And then I also read that UM there
was a former special agent that consulted on this movie
as well, So it sounds like it's very possible that

(59:52):
they had consulted someone who had been somehow affiliated with
the l A. S D to make this movie, which
sort of opens up something that I feel like we
we've talked about in passing over the years, which is
that you know when you're writing about or when they're
It's like often when there's movies that are about cops
or especially about the military, UM consultants are brought on

(01:00:15):
who are very pro cop and pro military, and it's
you never see consultants being brought on to a movie
like this that have the same knowledge base but would
be perhaps critical of murder, Like I feel like we
we hear that all the time with UM. I forget
what the what the job title is, but there's like

(01:00:38):
a high ranking military person whose job is to work
with Hollywood and say, okay, you can use our tanks
and transformers if you get a B and C. You know,
sneaking into the movie, and it's such a traceable pattern
that I would guess whatever consulting was done on this
movie is kind of the same, the same thing as

(01:00:59):
going on year. Um. Yeah, I wish I knew more
about the consulting process with this movie. There's it seems
like people were really not interested in this movie because
I couldn't find a lot about the production other than um,
Gerard Butler love going on talk shows together and chatting. Um,

(01:01:21):
that's all. But but yeah, I think that the consulting
process on movies like this is really critical because it
is like, it's bizarre that there's that level of specificity
in a completely uncritical way. M Well, I would also
argue that because I watched this movie for the first
time before I had read any of the parts of

(01:01:42):
your piece on these Gangs in the Sheriff's Department in
l A. And I don't know if I'm just dense,
but like I again, I I was aware of like
just the trope of you know, cops in movies, you know,
being these kind of hard ass I don't play by

(01:02:03):
the rules. I do my own thing, and that's how
I catch the bad guys. Sort of just like mentalities,
especially for the big Nick character, but like the references
to the gang he's in, Like I just kind of
missed that, you know, I know he's like pointing out
a tattoo, but I don't I don't know like what
exactly that was in reference to. So even though there

(01:02:23):
are these specific references, I think if you don't already
have some kind of baseline of knowledge about these gangs
in sheriff's apartments, which I'd imagine the general public doesn't
know that much about, which is why it's so important
for everyone to read your writing series. But like I

(01:02:43):
was just like, oh, and so I didn't even connect
the dots really until after I had read the parts
that have been published so far of your writing. So, um,
I guess I was. I ended up being just very
surprised that how not prized. But I was expecting, um,

(01:03:05):
if there are going to be these references in the movie,
that it would that it would be more critical about it.
But again, the framing of these of these deputy characters
in the movie is like, yeah, they're grizzled, they're rough
around the edges, they drink, they smoke, they cheat on
their wives, they get divorced, you know, all these things,
but ultimately, at the end of the day, they're good

(01:03:28):
cops and they're doing good work and where you know,
we're supposed to be rooting for them. And even though
the three of us watching this movie are not rooting
for Big Nick and his deputies because of how we know, uh,
like just all of the horror and terror and everything

(01:03:51):
that cops inflicts on the communities they're supposed to be protecting. Um,
they are not redeemable to us. But again, I think
the movie is like framing them is like, Nope, these
are the good guys. See see how empathetic they are. Oh,
don't you feel bad for him? He's crying because he
can't see his daughter like that kind of stuff. Yeah.

(01:04:12):
The way that daughters are bandied about in this goddamn
movie is so it's it is like the you're referencing
this earlier Caitlin. But yeah, the the way that uh,
the women in this movie are used are generally too
endeare you to uh male character, especially the daughters with

(01:04:34):
juror Oh, my god, Gerard Butler, like my daughter and
my daughter and my daughter I'm so sick of Like
he's like just God, I've my daughter culture we gotta
kill it. It's so boring and manipulative in the way
that it's kind of weaponized because you could, I mean,
you could take them my daughter of it all out

(01:04:54):
of Gerard Butler's storyline, and the only result of it
would be that you would like his character less, which
this movie seems pretty invested in you, uh, remaining somehow
like somewhat loyal to him. Um. And then you kind
of get a similar moment with fifty cents character where

(01:05:14):
I don't know in the way that the daughters are ustress.
It's just so corny and trophy too, because for fifty like,
this is my daughter's prom date. You better not be
mean to my daughter or or all of my friends will.
And then it's like, God, it's so corny. It's a
scene we've seen a bazillion times. It's scary and possessive.

(01:05:37):
And then he closes the door and it's a stadium
arcadium poster and I'm like, and the daughter never comes back,
and like they never see her again. We don't even
know how the prom went. I was invested. Um. I
love how win Gerard Butler's daughter has a line on
screen her. The first thing she says to her other

(01:06:00):
is what are you doing? Same valid question question, especially
after because his his his wife just said to him like,
you smell really bad. And then he got extremely close
to his very young daughter, and I was like, stinky
Gerard Butler getting close to his kid to get I

(01:06:22):
don't know, I mean, I guess the one act of
agency that a woman has in the whole movie is
Gerard Butler's wife being like, Nope, we're getting out of here, um,
which again was something that I thought. I don't know
why I kept like, I just like, there were a
few moments where I'm like, oh, benefit of the doubt,
maybe this is going somewhere, and then it never was.

(01:06:44):
But it's I thought it was interesting. I guess interesting
is as close as you'll get. But um, that they
gave Gerard Butler like a disastrous home life, and they
made it like the movie went really out of its
way to show that he was just a plague to
everyone in his personal life, um, and that he was

(01:07:05):
pretty like unloved by his family, which I feel like
it is. I mean that that's doesn't necessarily happen in
all copaganda movies. A lot of times you have like
the like a cop that has a very well structured
home life and maybe he goes rogue a little bit
and maybe he like focks around with other women, but
he still has this like nuclear family unit. But that's

(01:07:29):
not I mean, it's very much not the case for him.
I was wondering because there is such a well documented
high rate of domestic abuse and um coming from cops,
usually to their wives, but just to their spouses in general.
I was like, is that where this is going? But
then it was It turns out it was going actually nowhere. Yeah,

(01:07:53):
there's that very long scene where he like shows up
to his wife's like little dinner party one of her
other friends. What was going on there? And he's like
terrorizing everybody, And I'm just like, again, like, who are
we supposed to be rooting for in this movie? Because
everyone's so toxic and awful. I think that was supposed

(01:08:17):
to sort of like put her in a bad light,
right because she was there with her boyfriend, and which
I think was supposed to be imply at all, like
she's been unfaithful as well. Everyone is right, and like
when you when you first meet her, it's in the
same scene that she's leaving him, so again, like I

(01:08:40):
look at that, I'm like, yes, you were clearly very
justified in leaving this very shitty Why did you marry
this person? Is my question. But the way that these
scenes like this get framed in movies in like just
sort of the way that storytelling manipulates audiences, is it
makes us like we're not meant to like that his

(01:09:01):
wife character or side with her because of like she's
doing something mean to the guy that we're supposed to
be rooting for. So yeah, and then he just shows
up at his daughter's like playground at school, and no
teachers being like who is this man? Don't talk to
this weird man who's lingering at a playground, like what

(01:09:26):
it's so like? Yeah, him lingering at a playground was
I was like, Oh, I need to get me out
of here, get me out of here, and I don't
want to be here anymore. I it's I. I I
was so confused, like what are we supposed to in
what world is this going to endear you to this man?
And then I was just like, well, you know, um,

(01:09:49):
we're clearly not the target audience for this movie. I
would honestly I'm just like, I want to talk to
whoever the target movie, Like who is the target audience
for this movie? And I would like to have a
word with them because they have they have a twisted mind.
Um yeah, the way that and that's mainly I mean,
that's kind of the only way that in terms for

(01:10:11):
for in terms of talking about like maybe this movie
obviously doesn't pass the Bechdel test, Like women are just
there too make you feel away about a good guy
or a bad guy. And I think, well, another the
other female characters you have. You have a number of
sex workers who are presented nameless, faceless, usually as set dressing,

(01:10:34):
um and either to be shamed or to be set dressing.
And then you have um, what's his name, Leev Schreiber's brother, Pop,
what's Merriman? Uh, Merryman, Merriman's girlfriend or his wife, I'm
not sure which. Wait, he's leave Schreibers. Oh my gosh. Yeah,

(01:10:57):
there's a lot of nepotism going on in this time.
It's nepotism top to bottom, except well, actually, I guess
Leave Schreiber's brother, and o'she Jackson Jr. Is ice Cube's son,
and Christian Guda Gasta is John Jacob Astor from Titanic Son.
So whatever nepotism feels the world, we know this. Um.

(01:11:20):
But yeah, so so that Merriman's partner, I don't know.
I don't know, like really, um what their relationship is
because the movie doesn't tell you, but he weaponizes her
as well and kind of sens her out on. Can
someone explain to me what was going on there? Because
I was confused? I mean, it didn't That's another thing

(01:11:43):
that didn't really make any sense. I feel like she
seduced him and in that in that interaction she was
able to she informed him where the robbery was going
to be, But like, I don't really that part didn't
really make sense to me, Like why would that come up?
Like in a trist Like I think my boyfriend's driving
a bag because you might want to know about this, right, Yeah,

(01:12:10):
what Mary? Mary? You learned that Merriman puts her up
to it, and like she's he tells her to deliberately
give him this information so that those deputies go to
that place, so that they are adequately distracted from the
real heist. But right, like so it's this he's oh god,

(01:12:32):
He's like pimping out his girlfriend who like be better
at crimes, and I'm just like, oh my god. And
then there's that scene where there's like just like a
dick measuring contest at the shooting range between Merriman and
Gerard Butler, and they're just like, I can shoot my

(01:12:54):
gun better than it's who who is this? But it
seems like that is like cop culture in like just
the the embarrassing dick measuring hyper masculine cowboy culture is
so I don't it's so, I guess I'm I'm curious

(01:13:19):
about your your thoughts on that two series where it's
like it seems like these two things kind of feed
into each other in this very insidious way where it's
like all media surrounding cops reinforced this cowboy mentality. And
I I mean, there's countless examples of people who decide
they want to become cops based off of watching movies
like this. And then it sounds like, based on your

(01:13:43):
your reporting, that the culture that it actually exists very
much reflects that it It just seems like a kind
of a snake eating its own tail in terms of
how the how the culture works there. Yeah, I think
you summed it up perfectly. I mean everything that was
depicted in this movie, like that kind of stuff is
celebrated in law enforcement, you know, like after there's a shooting. Um,

(01:14:07):
a lot of the times they're going out and having
drinks and you know, celebrating it. Um. Oh yeah, I
think you very much hit it on the head. Like people,
A lot of people, unfortunately, I think, join law enforcement
so they can participate in stuff like this. Yeah, and
like fulfill this you know, whether it seems like like

(01:14:30):
a dominant fantasy basically um right yeah, and then yeah,
I mean again, framing is everything. The way these characters
are framed in media is often like, Wow, they're so cool,
they're such badasses. You know, they play by their own rules.
They're the heroes. They're like, you know, quote unquote saving

(01:14:54):
the day, and it just perpetuates this cycle of propaganda. Yeah,
it's not good. It's it's uh, I'll say it. I
don't like it. Um wow, brave, thank you. And I
also thought it was like a very deliberate choice to

(01:15:16):
make them to make the den of thieves, the you
know who the movie wants you to feel it are
the bad guys, to make them all veterans as well.
It's like, I think, a very trophy and deliberate choice.
They were very um wait it was it was a
specific branch. They were from Marsock Marine Special Forces, right,

(01:15:37):
And so it's like, you're all there's also this other
narrative that's kind of going on there that implies that, uh,
you know, veterans are inclined to behave a type of
way in a way that's just I don't know, it's
it's obviously extremely unnuanced, but it doesn't really I mean,
this movie interrogates nothing except like why does Gerard Butler

(01:15:59):
looks so bad? But um? And the other the other
big question does fifty cent listen to stadium Marquadium? Um?
But in terms of like really intentionally choosing, I feel
like it's really tropey to be like, oh, he's an
ex marine, so of course he's like really tough and
really violent without interrogating like, well, where does that trope

(01:16:20):
come from? And can the government not be held to
account as being extremely complicit and um marine violence and
then providing veterans with no resources, um, you know, or
job prospects often once they're out of the forces, and
just I don't know that kind of pain to me
as well, of like, oh, of course this movie is

(01:16:42):
going to be poorly written enough just to be like, um,
ex marine, sure sounds good. Um yeah, are there was
like we definitely ran out of women. Um I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
There anything um you'd like to add about anything series

(01:17:05):
or I guess I'm specifically interested in your thoughts on
how media can handle the representation of law enforcements and
that kind of things more responsibly or in a way
that is, um, just more critical and shedding light on

(01:17:28):
the again, the like very often racially charged violence that
they're inflicting on individuals and communities. Any any thoughts. Yeah,
I mean I think we just need to stop having
movies like this, right, I mean yeah, And if you

(01:17:49):
I don't think police violence should be glorified in movies,
like I definitely think like there's perhaps a way to
you know, have films that discuss the terror that police
inflict on community news, but it's done in such a
way that it's you know, amplifying the voices of the
people that survived the horror and you know, speaking about

(01:18:10):
the implications of that and the toll that it's taken
on their lives. I'm much more interested in seeing that
rather than some asshole with a gun, you know, gives
the R word and kill a bunch of people and
then go home and collect. Think one of the few
movies I've seen about that or like, like from that

(01:18:31):
perspective would be straight out of Compton Um the hate
you give, and then maybe handful of others, but they're
just yeah, those stories just aren't being told nearly as
often as all of these compaganda movies because there's just
so many of them, and a lot of them, Like
I'm like, damn it, this is a movie that I like,

(01:18:54):
it's about cops, and I just have to there's just
like so much of that that I've had to un learn.
I think it does come into like there there there
are you know, there is media that exists that is
critical of police, but they're also just like not funded
or promoted um to anywhere near the same extent. Like

(01:19:16):
no one has ever heard of Dennett of Thieves, and
yet it made eighty million dollars, Like it is such
an industry as well that it's like it I don't know,
it's it feels so frustrating and so hopeless and I
think that there there is potential, especially um when reporting
like yours comes out series that it's like, the more

(01:19:38):
that the public is generally aware that this is just
total bullshit that um, we've kind of been spoon fed
as like easy content to consume that hopefully that you know,
the desires of of of the general public will change
and be less open and accommodating and willing to just
fork over money to stuff like this. Um yeah, I

(01:20:02):
don't know. It's it's very dark. And then it's also
just like so intuitive in the same way that it's
just like, yeah, if you want to make a movie
that's uh an accurate depiction of of what Like, it's
just the idea that the only option is to center
and consult cops. Like, in what world are you going

(01:20:24):
to come out with something that isn't just promoting cops?
And it just seems like that is the that's the
media habit we're stuck in. And it's and and it's
only recently kind of being um questioned. I mean, it's
like dogs are Cops. That's like the most popular show
for children is cop Dogs. Yea. And I feel like

(01:20:52):
in the in the last several years, there's been I mean,
there's been so many different takes on copaganda. There's so
many ways to come at at um discussion, but it
just seems like, yeah, like movies like Ten of Thieves
don't serve anyone, Like it's just kind of garbage. And yeah,

(01:21:14):
it's like referencing these gangs the Christian whatever the ship
his name is I was aware of, but then doing
absolutely nothing to like criticize or comment on the behavior.
I mean, aside from you know, again, they're showing the

(01:21:37):
these deputies like you know, roughing up Donnie and they, yes,
they do do a big shootout and Um murder a
lot of people. But again, it's all about the framing.
It's like, well, they were bad guys, they were robbers,
and they're justified at the end when Big Nick kills
um Leave Shriver's brother. The way that it's framed is

(01:22:00):
like and this is like so hard for him and
he doesn't actually want to do it, He just he
has to do it. And it's like no one has
to murder anybody, and and and the disingenuous framing of like,
oh don't you feel for this guy because he has
to murder It's like I don't know. Yeah, it makes

(01:22:25):
my head hurt. But it's like, but it is so
normalized in that genre that when you watch it unfold,
these characters who literally admit to being the villain repeatedly. Um,
it's so stuck into this genre that it's like believen
if they say they're the villain, they're actually not, and
we love them and we're gonna market it like that
and we're gonna make eighty million bucking dollars. Um. So

(01:22:51):
on that note, it doesn't pass the backbuilt tapest It
really doesn't nowhere closed. Sorry, it does past the stadium
arcadium test, which most movies don't. Um. So that's positive. Um.
And then as far as our nipple scale zero to

(01:23:13):
five nipples based on an intersectional examination of the movie,
I'll just go ahead and give this zero nipples. So
I don't think it really deserves anything. Um, let's give
it a zero. Yeah, that's gonna be. That's going to
be a zero. Um, what would you like to rate it?

(01:23:36):
It was horrible? I mean I am, I am genuinely
very happy that you brought this to us though, because
this is not normally the movie that we would cover,
and like we just don't cover this genre very much,
but it is definitely like important to talk about because
a lot of people watch these movies like religiously, and

(01:23:59):
and it definitely affects I mean, it unquestionably affects the
way that they view law enforcement and what they're they're
like willing to permit from law enforcement because, like you
pointed it out, the most famous cop characters are constantly
being terrible cops like and that's a part of the
glorified image. UM. And so much of the the incredible

(01:24:23):
reporting you've you've been releasing UM reflects that to absolutely
horrific extent. UM. So yeah, UM, thank you so much
for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.
We really we really really appreciate it. Um. And thank

(01:24:43):
you for bringing us uh feminist masterpiece Done of Thieves
my new favorite movie. I would have never discovered this
without YEA, So thank you so much. UM. And where
can we um, where can we find your work? And
where can we find um this this series you're you're
releasing this pisod's going to come out tomorrow. Yeah. You

(01:25:03):
can follow me on Twitter at series Castle and you
can find me on Instagram. UM by you know, typing
that in as well. Um, you can read the series
on the Deputy Gangs at Knock dot l A tomorrow
or today when this podcast is dropping, we will actually
be releasing our UM chapter about the Regulators, so you

(01:25:25):
can read all about Yes, perfect timing, so head over
there and you can read all about the Deputy gang
that Big Nick was in and all the horrible ship
that they do. God damn, thank you so much for
for coming. Thank you so much for the incredible reporting
that you're doing. And um, yeah, I guess you can

(01:25:48):
find the vectal cast and all in all the regular places,
the Twitter, the Instagram, you can the Patreon, etcetera. Yeah,
um yeah, please read the reporting that's Reese has done
is continuing to do. And uh the Patreon. Can you
can you plug the patroon again for nack l a yeah,

(01:26:11):
or please support ournock Patreon. Um. Like I said, UM,
this work is it costs a lot of money to
do and I'd like to keep doing it. Um, So
anything that you can spare is much appreciated. Yes, please, UM,
and thanks for listening. Come back next week because we
have UM, I think maybe our most impactful episode that

(01:26:32):
we've ever released is coming out next week, so definitely
yes for that. It's going to be it's very important,
all right, Bye bye