Die Hard with Debra DiGiovanni

The Bechdel Cast celebrates our one year anniversary with a live show! Guest Debra DiGiovanni joins Caitlin and Jamie to chat about Die Hard. Yippee Kay Yay! (This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have woenium,
are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do
they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best start changing
it with the beck dol Cast. Good evening, everyone, and
walk up to the show. Please let me walk up
the stage, Caleta Jamie. Welcome, Yes, thank you. How are

(00:30):
you guys? Are you guys good? You're good. We are
celebrating our one year anniversary. So thanks for coming out
and celebrating with us. Has everybody heard? By round of applauses? Everybody?
I heard it before? Or did you just wander? Okay? Okay,
so by round of applause? Who has never listened to

(00:52):
an episode of the beckdel Cast? Oh and they're all
sitting in the front row. Good, so we can just
stare you. But actually you wouldn't understand this is a
reference to a past thing we've not Yeah, just a
few things. Probably going to mention Alfred Molina for no
reason for I mean, but like I think the list
of reasons not to talk about Alfred Molina is very short. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:16):
For those of you who don't know what the Bechtel
Cast is or you're like, hey, what am I getting
into when you talk about the portrayal of women in movies?
We do it film by film. Every week we have
a new movie that we tear apart, and then our
fans are like, oh, thanks for ruining this movie for us,
and today will be no different and hearts will be
break and hearts will be broken today. Yeah. So we've

(01:37):
been doing it for a year now. I've had fifty
two individual different guests. They've all been great. If they
were men, they for sure interrupted us many times. Oh yeah,
there there is not even the male guests we've had
that are near and dear or hard great friends. There's
been I mean no short of five times where you're

(01:57):
just like and the PA triarchy is back, like yeah, actually,
here's what I think about Harrison Ford just like like
it's it's been a real years. Hands. Also, if you
know you're like what Bechtel, what does that mean? I'll
tell you who it's. And she made a test called

(02:19):
the Bechtel test, and it requires that a movie has
at least one scene where there's a single conversation between
two women. They have to speak to each other, and
their conversation has to be about something other than a man.
Preferably those characters have names. Yeah, we we prefer for
them to have names, just as you would in real life.
There's what if people like what if someone went back

(02:40):
and they're like, the Becktel cast is never because they're
only talking about Alfred Molina. Honestly, I think that Alfred
Molina is an exception to the test. And if it's
two women with names talking about Alfred Molina, it's stiff
has test personally. That's my belief. Sure, so all it
takes just for the record, because I feel like we
get this uh a lot is It only takes two

(03:02):
lines of dialogue. It doesn't have to be a whole scene.
Just literally, Hi, Caitlin, shut up. Jamie passes done easy
every day with that many times. Yeah, we've had that
very conversation leave my home, you know. So that's all
it takes. Hey, should we bring out our guests? I

(03:22):
think we should. This is our first time second time whoa,
this is our first second time guest on the Bechtel Cast,
big on or really a band or not? For everybody?
Oh I see, okay, it's our first repeat guest. Yeah,
so this is our first repeat guest. You heard her
last year on Our Love Actually episode, lots of hearts

(03:42):
were broken because that movie is garbage. It's a bad movie.
It's bad for women, it's bad for the world. But
we're so thrilled to have her back. Yes, sure, should
we say in unison, I would love to please welcome. Hey,

(04:03):
does everybody want to give a big clap for goodness? Hello? Girls,
good to be back, good to see you, Hello, live audience,

(04:24):
group of humans, a full How are you? It's a
very stress name. It's a lot. We love your name.
It's perfect goodness. Okay, well, so how are you doing
a quick checken? Yeah? I'm good, Yeah, good, everything's fine.
I have a puffy eye. Let's move on. We're talking
about we were talking. Don't no eye contact? I got

(04:50):
it in my rider. Yeah. Also, you'll turn to stone apparently,
that's what I'm saying. It's good. I think my hair
looks a little better than that. But let's move on.
It looks great, but I got not what's important. Okay,
we're talking about die Hard? Has everybody round? Who has

(05:12):
everybody seen Diehard? Yes? I heard round of a place.
Who has not seen die I got a bunch of
people in the front row. Yeah, like people are here
to be seen and bullied. Yeah. Sorry, Wait, you both
clapped your hands for someone who has never listened to
the podcast, nor have you seen die Hard? Amazing? Do

(05:34):
you know where you are right now? There's the last
live episode we did. My mother was sitting in the
front row and she was loudly antagonizing us for the
duration of the episode and hitting on our guests very aggressively.
Oh she was there. She was like, she just kept saying,

(05:56):
just screaming it for no reason. I know, it's nineties.
It was yeah, I'm sorry, I am now Jill screaming
and then yeah, and then our friend was flirting with
our friend who later was like, do you think I
have a shot? Oh my god? Who was the guest
who was flirting which listen, Oh no, that's okay, it's triggering.

(06:20):
He's my dad now, so he is just my actual father.
This podcast is ruined my life. I have a father
who is my age. Yeah, he takes me out. We
played basketball together. So die Hard, I will do the

(06:43):
Lynn's famous recap all right? Uh And as always, Caitlyn's
recap was made to be interrupted. Yes, although I read
I wrote something out this time, and I might just
read it because I didn't. I wanted this to be
a really good recap for you guys. I'll suck it
up anyway, doesn't it doesn't matter. So the story of

(07:06):
die Hard a Christmas story? It is? It isn't. Yeah,
let's put that to rest. It's a Christmas movie. My
recap does start with It's Christmas Eve? Is it? I
don't even know when this movie takes. Okay, it's Chris Christmas. Okay,
that's my thoughts. I already have a problem. Okay, three
words into it. Work party on Christmas Eve? Right, Susan true? True?

(07:29):
And then we see her call her kid and she's like,
you're not home on Christmas Eve and she's like, to
deal with a bitch. Passes the Pichtel test, but not
good parenting. So it is Christmas evens. Yes, I also
found that area doesn't pass like it's definitely, it's definitely.
It feels like passes, but it doesn't right right right right,

(07:51):
So it's like, I don't know, five hours or something.
I don't know. Yeah, it's just a bad party. Just
just if you've ever been at a shitty party for
five hours, you've pretty much experienced die hard to the
recap RecA Okay, okay, sorry Christmas Eve and John McClane

(08:12):
is a New York cop flying into l A to
see his wife Holly. He's got a big old bear
and he's leering at women at the airport. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
he's on an airplane with a gun and he's like, no,
it's fine, I'm a cop, just hanging out of a holster,
not even properly stashed literally just in his pocket. Yeah.

(08:34):
And then immediately after that he yeah, he just leers
at a woman. So, if you weren't sure if this
movie was going to be about toxic masculinity, the first
five men from one of the fight attendants, she leers
at him. I think, yeah, that's the first one. I
made a note. I wrote it down, and we hear,
and we heard. The Bettel cast love the objectification of

(08:56):
and this is a good movie for male objectification. There's
a lot of Bruce Willis just from a story perspective,
slowly getting Nooter. It's a metaphor, but also he is
stern actively castle uncut version it's cut. Oh never mind, stop,

(09:24):
let's move on, keep going, keep going, chock recap right, right,
I'm one sentence into the RecA. So there's a plane,
there's a gun. There's a gun, and a man who
names John McClane. He goes to his wife Holly, who's
at a work party at the Nakatomic Corporation, which is

(09:47):
a trading company. What do they do, trading cards? Trading cards?
It's pokemon, it's I don't know what it's. I don't
know what. It's a business company. It's night it's night
eighty eight. It could be anything like it could legitimately
be anything. For sure. Everyone's high on cocaine. Definitely, yes,
without doubt. So he goes to this party in a

(10:08):
giant building I wrote down. In the middle of the party,
about a dozen German terrorists show up, led by Hans
Grouper a k a. Alan Rickman. This is I'm so
glad I wrote this down. It's going so don't understand.
There's like a visual reality. When you said Hans Grouper,
people started like shifting in their seats, like they had

(10:29):
to change their underwear or something. They're like, I don't
get it, and I think it's anonymous with a villain.
Now Hans grew Yeah, Like people are just they're just
because Marty for grew. But I think it's because Rickman
like plays such a good villain and this might be
one of his first villains, you know what I mean.
So now it's I'm just saying I don't know anything.
I do not like Allen Rickman in this movie. Well, okay, there,

(10:53):
we'll get there, We'll get there. Okay. So the terrorists
take everyone at the party hostage, but they weren't counting
on feminist icon John McClain being there, and he really
throws a wrench into the situation. The terrorists locked down
the building and they're trying to break into these vaults
to get hundred and forty What what about the part

(11:15):
where he's in the taxi, the limo? Maybe yeah, with
our gyle, I'm gonna skip over some stuff. We're already
forty minutes the show. We've not talked about anything, can't
other for three days. Okay, there is a part where
he's in a car. Okay, keep going, yes, yes, okay.

(11:36):
So the terrorists are trying to get these Bearer bonds.
I think, uh sixty million dollars worth of them. The
company's ceo again, question Mark, I don't know what anyone
does Joe Takagi. Um, He's like, I'm not going to
give you any information. So he gets shot in the head. Meanwhile,
feminist icons yes exactly. He kills this very Aaryan looking person,

(12:00):
and then he says, a sweatsuit and a sweatsuit, a
gray sweatsuit. I would love to kill a man in
a sweatsuit. He kills him by throwing him down some stairs,
and then he sends what I like to call an
elevator graham to the terrorists. Uh. And there's a little
like sign on in this I have a machine gun.
Ho ho ho ho. Alan Rickman sure knows how to

(12:23):
make a very short line last okay. McClean is like
trying to get the cops to come, and no one
responds until our pal, a sidekick, Flucky Sergeant Al Powell
ak al Pal he arrives with the scene and then

(12:45):
he and John become best friends bromance, right, and it's
like via the lips at the end. To be honest,
they really connect over a walkie talkie conver station that
all of the terrorists can hear, and they don't even

(13:05):
try to hide it. At two different times, Al says
both I love you and it's a date. Yeah, it's like,
I didn't remember the depth of that. Absolutely, they're a
better match than John and his own wife. Then mcclan
gets his hands on the terrorist detonators, Hans throws a fit,

(13:27):
the FBI shows up, some explosions happen. John's foot is
bleeding a lot. I love the part where he's being
very dramatic about his bleeding foot. Yeah, he's like, tell
my wife, I'm sorry, and it's like you're fine, You're
like he gets a little like foot scrape. He's like,
oh my god, this has actually been really hard on me. An,

(13:52):
I actually don't know if I'm going to freaking make it. Yeah.
And then finally the terrorists were able to break into
the vault to steal the bonds that they're after. Hans
discovers that John McClean is Holly's wife, so he's like, oh,
I'm gonna kidnap you now, and then he takes her
gun point and then I forgot to finish writing the thing.

(14:15):
But we never know how, we don't all we'll never
know pretty much. Yeah, he's like, oh, I'm gonna kill
your wife, and then John's like, yippy kaye, motherfucker any
right if he said fatherfucker toxic masculine it, yeah right.

(14:36):
I actually don't know how the logic Networks taped the
gun to his back with bloody, sweaty back and somehow
he's with I don't know what like he's taped that
is physically impossible. I don't care much Yoga McLean does.
There's no way that he's done that. I never thought
of it. But that's totally sweaty and it's not happening. Yeah,
I'm sorry, scientifically speaking, right, because yeah, there's no tape

(15:00):
that unless what if he like put it all on
the ground and then like laid down on it up.
No one is laying onto a gun that John mccle
he needs to save the women. You think that he's
lightly planting him his torso onto a gun, a loaded gun?

(15:25):
What else? How else? Okay, you know what I'm in
movie magic, alright, So yeah, then he grabs the gun
that he's lie down to. The tape left only two
and he uses them both so wisely, and he kills
the bad guys and then saves his wife and then
everyone's and then at and that's pretty much the end

(15:49):
of the movie. There we go all right. Anyway, thank you,
this has been fun. Thanks and so Deborah, what is
your history with this movie? Now? Okay, this is this
movie was made in right, so, like I was a
young person, I was at high school, and it was
it was a big movie, like I think I remember

(16:09):
like it was all the boys favorites. Everyone loved it.
It was ya motherfucker like, oh my god, at nausea
and it was it was really like it was a
super popular movie. And I remember like rewatching again thinking
to myself, I liked this movie. I really did. What
oh no, like it was. I was shocked to see
how it really doesn't hold up. But in we loved it.

(16:31):
It was great. The boys love to love. People still
do love. I mean, would they make seventeen Diehards now
like they made five six five? Right? So as recently
as like what year four years ago? You know I'm
making that up? Is that even I like less than
ten years ago? Right? Yeah? Like die Hard with it
with a vengeance? Yeah, god, you know what I mean.

(16:53):
I like to chill out. First of all, the title
die hard is like, what does that even mean? It's
hard to die? It's hard to die? It's not apparently
I've been thinking about it a lot. Okay, so I
was like, maybe it's they have die hard beliefs, right,
and then I but then I thought about I was like,
no one in this movie has diehard beliefs. They all

(17:14):
seem pretty willing to just be like, oh, that person
is dead. Well, I guess this is my friend now,
like they're everyone is constantly. John can't even explain why
he wants to stay in New York. He's like, because
I'm from there, and uh so I said, fuck my
wife and fuck my kids, and I'm not gonna move.

(17:35):
That's not a die hard belief. That's just dumb. Yeah.
So it's not that people are they're dying in ways
that don't seem easy. I guess that, right. Like German.
Let's say the ballerina, the professional ballerina, you know him,
the one the long hair. He was, he was a ballerina.
Let's move on. I don't mean to alarm any It
was big in the eighties. Let's move on. I think

(17:55):
he dated Jacqueline bits that I'm an old woman. Let's
move on. All right, back story, he's the one that
gets hung and then lives, so it was hard for
him to die that he's the one that comes out
of the end, another very aryan looking person. Yes, right, okay,
can you say about Grouper's accent, like, is he he's
a british Man living in Germany or something, because he's

(18:16):
British the entire time they speak Germans. We were right,
Caleen and I were watching this movie the other night
in her bed, as we do most episodes. There. No,
but his his accent is crummy. It's bad, really, it
really is. Yeah, it's just him. I think that is
was Frickman. He was British ry. Yeah, I think it

(18:37):
was just him being him and then every once in
a while German and then he would do at some
point someone would give me. I posted something to that
effect on Facebook recently, and I had no less than
six men being like, actually, he's actually very authentic and good.
Here's the lake to the thing. It's just like I'm

(18:58):
gonna kill you, Like they're just this. I didn't even
realize we did our Love Actually episode with you. This
is the second Ellen Rickman, Christmas Rickman and Christmas what Okay,
we're gonna have tore The third one is gonna have
to be may he rest But we're gonna have to
figure something that we'll have to get his Christmas movies
or something. And in front of it, yeah, because I mean,
well in last year, like late twenty sixteen, you had

(19:19):
to every time, was I think every time way said Alan,
people were like Riman. Now it's the end of two
thousand seventeen and I feel fine being like I don't
like it in this movie Rest in Paradise. But I
didn't like it, bitch, I did not like, did not
like it. I don't. Yeah, his his accent is super
because the German people he's with are very clearly German,

(19:44):
like they are laying it like there their German. And
then he's he could take it or leave it enough
for a German accent. He's like, I'm not gonna try,
and a half trying is not in his rider. Jamie,
what's your history with the movie. I only saw this
movie two years ago, and I went like shortly after
I moved here, and I lived with this woman who

(20:07):
was very exhausting, and she was just like, you haven't
seen the d and so then she made me stay
inside for a whole night and watch this movie with
her and her ex boyfriend, and I sat in between them,
and then you know, he left and she was just like,
why were you flirting with him? I was like, I

(20:29):
was like, I wasn't you made me stay here? So
I saw it two years ago. That's my whole history
with Amazing. I saw, I think for the first time,
probably like ten years ago. I didn't grow up with
the movie, but I've only seen that. You watch it,
do you remember, like was it your choice or yeah?

(20:50):
Because I was like, I was getting her master's degree.
I need to watch a lot of movies telling me
in screenwriting, in screen right from Boston University. From Boston University,
you have a I don't like to bring it up.
What sorry? What was it? A masters in screen Wow?

(21:11):
That's can we just give her a quick run of
a plane? Let's give it up from our higher education? Yeah? Wow.
So yeah, I was just like, I have to see
so many movies. And then I just watched it, and
my feelings are that it's not a bad movie. I
generally enjoy the first forty five minutes of it, and
then I get pretty bored of just like, oh, it's

(21:32):
John McClane running through an empty room again and he
is talking to himself a lot. Yeah, so, yeah, it's
always too macho for me. I think, I don't. I
don't remember. I don't. I don't think I ever saw
the second one, but I know what took place on
a plane, an airport, airport, the whole thing. Well, and

(21:54):
we do know in the second movie. This is as
far as I looked into it, but we do know,
which directly affect how we view the end of the
first movie that he does end up moving to Los
Angeles to be with his wife, so, which is good
because he couldn't explain why he was doing what he
was doing in the first place. He was just like,
I'm an asshole, and so at the end he's like,

(22:15):
my wife is smarter and has more money than me,
which you know, men don't like. Very It was all
very like semi disgusting though, when he's talking to the
guy on the plane about his wife and she got
a job that turned into a career, like a bit,
how dare she? You know what I mean? It's like that,
It really is. It's all like my little woman is
working and it's it's it's really and that conversation kind

(22:37):
of carries over into the next thing with Argyle, where
Argyles like laughing at John and saying like, oh, you
thought she was gonna like fail and then she'd have
to move back and be with you. And he's kind
of like, He's like you definitely was like seventeen. I
don't think he should be a professional limo driver, but
does he have a driver's to be honest, Yeah, but

(22:58):
it's really kind of grossy in a icon Argyle Actually no,
he he talks about he's what's the point where he's
on the phone and he's like, yeah, bibb, I would
never lie to you over I was like, oh, man,
I've dated him first, so to piggyback on what you
were saying. Yeah, So there's a whole subplot. I like

(23:22):
to call it John mcclean's insecurities about Holly Gennaro Yes
and her career because he has the conversation with Argyle
about how he's like, I didn't think she was gonna
be good at her job, and then he finds out
that she's going by her maiden name and she blames

(23:43):
it on the fact that it's a Japanese company or something. Right, Yeah,
it's like they're Japanese. They don't want me to be married.
I'm like, what does that mean. I don't think that
means unclear. But then you find out all this stuff
about her as a career woman. She's the director of
corporate affairs. I read it on the door of her office,
or they don't tell you you had to research. Look,

(24:04):
I had to Everything business like in this movie is
extremely right. Director of corporate affairs. What is that? Did
you see the watch? She got a fancy watch? Right,
we'll give the little lady a little little sparkly like,
because that's sparkle to keep her quiet. I don't know.

(24:25):
And it seems like no matter what your title it
because director of corporate affairs. And they were like, her
specialty is negotiation. And then but then there's the the
the who he's like, also, my skill is negotiating, Like,
do you guys all have the same? Are you all interns? Yeah?
What is this? What is sisipany? I don't know. The

(24:46):
point is that a lot of them do talk about
how skilled she is at her job. So she's established
as like a professional, capable woman. So we're like, hey, cool,
that's the scene at the beginning when they're like looking
down at the Christmas party and you he Hawlly like
screwy through the crowd and she's still working while everyone
else's partying. So that shows you she's not like professional.

(25:07):
I think she might have been carried like like a
clipboard or something, you know what I mean, because she's
a lady at work, a corporate affairs, a chess. There
are many sheets a paper on that clipboard. Very very business,
no time boys, there's affairs to be corporated. I have
to go staple stuff out of my way. The first
time he's here, she's being actively sexually harassed. That's the

(25:29):
first time he was like, she's like notice so that
they don't show her face like the first The first
with her is douchebag like just being a disgusting pig,
and it's just the back of her head the entire time,
so it's like they don't. I just thought that was creepy.
And then in a lot of movies we've done, there's
like very intentional reveals of like and the twist is

(25:51):
she's gorgeous. Like there's that twist a lot. My My
favorite one that we've done is in JELI when Larry
Jeeley because that's his name, Larry gee Lee answers the door,
and it's like, oh, there's a woman here, who is it?
And then she turns around she says hi, and it's
Jennifer Lopez and you're just like, oh, she's being a

(26:12):
flu But with with this shot, it's weird because there's
not a lot of intent because it seems like something's
going to be revealed. It's like, Oh, we're following this
attractive woman who's being harassed, and then she turns around
and she continues to be an attractive woman who's has
there's no reveal. I think maybe just the DP wasn't
very good in this movie, or just couldn't make that day.

(26:36):
Maybe that was just a wig walking a floating wig.
But Bonnie Badelia couldn't make it. It's her real name.
Let's move on, do your homework. Where is she? So
the next major plot point that happens within the subplot
of him being very insecure about her success, is that
John McClain and Holly have a conversation where here's just like,

(26:59):
you're going by your maiden name, what's all that about?
And she's like the Japanese company thing doesn't make sense,
don't worry, and he's like, well, you just did whatever
you wanted, no matter what it did to our marriage,
and she's like, you have this idea of our marriage
and blah blah. And I'm doing a great job recapturing
the magic of that scene. But kind of the subtext

(27:22):
is that basically thinks that she chose her career over him,
and he's very threatened by it and very resentful of it.
And he is basically there to be like, you should
I don't know, quit your job and come back to
New York or I don't know coming back to New York.
Does I'm fighting crime over this? And she's like, actually

(27:44):
Japan and he's like, oh fuck. And then it goes
to the bathroom and then the movie starts right he
takes off his shoes, which becomes a major plot point
very much. Yes, I love when he cries, just so
many crazy he's like my feet. Um, if you've seen

(28:04):
I heard, which most of you have, Holly is not
on screen enough in the movie. There's like she's on
screen I think cumulatively for maybe fifteen minutes, and that's
being very genus. Yeah, but this argument between them is
interesting because it's it's hard to tell from the standpoint
of the movie whose side we're supposed to be on,
because it's clear that John is it like, in the

(28:26):
wrong in terms of like she is doing very well.
There's even the people who were actively harassing her are
saying she's great at her job, which is, uh, you know,
that's another thing, but there, but you know, like, she's
clearly very good at her job. I love how that
scene at the end is interrupted by her assistant who's like,
they need you to talk to the troops, and then
she says, sorry, John, the troops need me. She leaves,

(28:51):
where are the troops here on Christmas Eve? I don't
like by standards, I genuinely was not entirely sure. Are
we supposed to be like, oh, John's totally in the right,
and she's being such a shrewd by saying I want
to have a life, Or are we supposed to think, wow,
John's being a baby and he should put his shoes on.

(29:12):
I mean, kind of hard to say. I think you
could probably argue that the main demographic that this movie
would appeal to is like adult men slash teenage boy
liked boy. Yeah, you know, fifteen year old you know
what I mean? Horny boys, horny boys. There's some boobs,

(29:35):
you know what I mean, there's there they're so they're
going to plug themselves into John McClean and being like,
oh he's cool, so they're probably gonna align with his
view and be like, oh, his wife's just being a
little but even though clearly like, let's be honest, what
do they get in New York for a cop salary? Like,
let's be honest. Where they're living, you know, I mean
they're in Queen's and like a two bedroom apartment, and

(29:57):
she clearly had the guest room, you know what I mean,
they're probab in a house in the valley, and she's
always look at the guests room. It's it's it's the room.
I mean, clearly, it's they're doing better. They had a
housekeeper come on and then and then also and then
are like yeah we've ma there's that part in that
scene where he says like, oh, something about Topoma and

(30:20):
she's like, um, Pomona. I was like, Oh, she's a
little kelly bitch. She's totally adapted. She's looked there for
two seconds exactly like you're gonna want to take fountain.
You're just like call down my good right, So yeah,

(30:43):
who side are we supposed to be on? Hard to say,
I think probably most people watching this are like, oh,
John McClean the hero, my hero, he's great and I
But by the end of the movie, that subplot basically
resolves by him thinking he's going to die because he
has a foot wound because he got cut glass forgive me.

(31:07):
He's talking to his al pal and he's like, tell
my wife, I'm sorry that I was being a jerk
and I should have supported her more and been behind her.
It's a very long message, isn't It's no way he's
nailing He wait aute, what was it? He was? Give
me a second. I should have written it down. I mean,

(31:27):
there's no way. Just like I'm sorry, and that's it.
He's also working, so you see this like, you know,
John going to this character arc where he's like, oh,
I realized I was being a total asshole. And even
after that fight he has with Holly, he is like
all barefoot and he's in front of a mirror and
he's like, oh, good job, John, real mature. So I

(31:49):
think he knows he's being kind of a dick, but
he's still is, you know, initiating a fight for no
reason because there's a moment where she's like, I've missed you.
He's like, well you didn't miss my name. He's like,
couldn't you, Like I don't know, say I miss you too. Also,
what's with this name thing that you're doing? Right right? Yeah,
there's that. That was a moment where I was just like,

(32:11):
like everyone's had an argument like that where it's just
like just take the wind, just like what are you doing? Yeah,
I don't know. That was like one of the parts
of the movie that I didn't remember where he's like
constantly sort of berating himself either for making the masculine
choice or not making the masculine choice, where he like
brats himself for yelling at his wife for not keeping

(32:33):
his name because she am his property. And but then
at other points in the movie he like burrats himself,
you know, in like Shakespearean monologue, which we're just like, well,
this is what the world is. Like he just yell
at yourself, but he like buriates himself for not acting
more violently and acting like in a more protective way.

(32:53):
So I don't know, I I he was more complex
than I remembered him being. I think the whole movie
is actually more complex than I remember that you might
assume just on first glance, because I think this is
a movie that doesn't necessarily mistreat women. It certainly doesn't
know portray many women, really treat women, Yeah, it just does.

(33:14):
It just doesn't. There's not women in the movie. So
it's not as though the women in the movie are
what few there are, are being mistreated by the narrative.
It's more a movie that just sort of glorifies hyper masculinity,
but then also doesn't because there are a bunch of
different types of toxic dudes who are very toxic in

(33:35):
the masculinity. Like we have to walk past the topless
girls in the on the wall the pictures like says
hide when then comes back and says hid work like
talks to the topless pictures. What is he like puts
his hand on it and he's like girls, It's like
what why does that happen? He kind of comes back
and it's like hey, babe, Like he like talks to it,
like he's having a relationship with it, and it's it's weird.

(33:57):
Call this movie complex though, Let's just go back. You
do well here, get ready for there is like that's
like one of those things that I love to picture them,
like male screenwriter in Israel, Like, that's fun. That was
a jerk off motion if you didn't know, Yeah, sorry,
uh yeah, it's an audio podcast. If you can tell

(34:19):
from my very saliva heavy gig, that was a jerk
off spot on spot on. He's like, I got him good,
but let me here here I come defending myself. All right.
I made a list of all the toxic bros in
the movie's Oh my god, wow we suck well. We

(34:44):
first of all, we have the businessman cokehead bros. We
have those, and those bros are pretty universally punished by
the world of this movie. Yeah, we're like we're coming
off the Reagan era. Everyone's like, actually, fuck these guys,
We're just gonna murder. So there's is it Ellis Harry
Ellis is the name of the character whatever he's hitting on.

(35:09):
He's the one hitting on Holly at the beginning, and
then comes in later he's like, actually I am a
bit of a negotiator and he's you know, Alan Ray
or whatever is really you know that there's some choed
out there right now with a T shirt that says that,
you know, like just not to trigger any chide listeners. Us.

(35:32):
We have a ton If you're a chode and you're listening,
stop listening, but ahead or stop being a chod. We
need the listener. Okay, So the toxic bros in this movie, Yeah,
Harry Ellis who just high on cocaine the whole movie,

(35:54):
so broie that he thinks he can all smart this
group of like mercenary harass yea and then gets murdered
because of it. There's Dwayne t. Robinson, the deputy chief
bro who was just like he's the guy who he's
like the police chief who like won't listen to reason
because al pal is being all like hang on, like

(36:17):
don't send the men in, and he was like shut up.
He might just be a bartender, the guy with the
hair who's like don't Yeah, that applies to a lot
of different characters. So I'm not sure if the girl
who don't do that? Yeah, sure, I love that guy.
So they're saying there's Thornberg, who's the TV bro who

(36:37):
wouldn't do anything for a story. And then there's all
the all the Feds are losers. Yeah, there's the terrorists bros.
And the biggest bro of them all, and they're literal bros.
Like some of them actually some of them are brothers. Yeah,
don't kill the bros. Bros get pissed. So the movie

(37:01):
makes a point to like show these like toxic dudes.
I mean, like they're bad, but this other one named
John McClain, he's good. It's yeah, it's very selective about
like this is the kind of hyper masculinity that we love,
but don't do business. That's stupid. It's weird. Yeah, but

(37:25):
that's why I say the movie is very complessed. Extremely.
I wanted to talk about this scene where it's another
time where we see Holly be very competent. There's two
scenes where we see her doing her job, which is negotiating.
The first scene is when Alan Rickman is really overdoing

(37:48):
it and he's he's strolling through the audience. He's says
sixteen words. It takes fifty hours for him to do it,
but he's he's trying to figure out who Holly's bosses. Uh,
And she she touches him like, she takes his arm
as if to say, I'm negotiating. I don't say anything,
and then he does. He goes against her wishes and

(38:11):
it gets him killed. So that's the first instance we
see of Holly. You know, we're like, oh, she was
totally right to negotiate. She had the right instinct. She
had the right instinct. And then there's the second scene
with Holly and Hans Gruber where she likes the way
you said that just I was doing my best giving it. Uh.

(38:34):
But we see Holly and Hans Gruber talking and she
does her job, which is negotiate, where she says, hey,
there's a pregnant lady and she's tired, and Alan Rickman says, Okay,
I'm listening, and if you don't want it to get messy,
you better start bringing us to the bathroom and groups
right right, He's like, thinking of that, I have to

(38:57):
be and let's make it nice, right, I was squatting
over a plant in this party. I'm talking right there,
go to the bathroom. Although it would have been very
exciting to see with someone pan a terrorist, definitely I
would have imagined, okay, there will be no question of
like this is a feminist text. If a pregnant woman
pissed on a terrorist, that would be yeah, that would

(39:20):
would I would get nice twisted the movie when like
all the ladies are ladies dropped trout when everyone just
started peeing. Remember the ters would fleet, they don't panic, fleet,
drop their guns, and the movie would be over. Remember
that sad They would just be like, Oh, that's the
movie where all the seven months pregnant women piss on terrorists.

(39:41):
I love that movie totally. Let's do that director's cut.
Surely that footage just hit at the cutting room floor.
But yes, that is the scene where I think we
see Holly kind of at the peak of her powers.
Because so often in movies like this, women be hysterical
women women no one faints. I don't think in this movie,

(40:05):
so women be a damsel in distress, which happens to
her a half hour later. But in this scene, like
the scene with her and Alan Rickman, I really like
because she effectively negotiates. He listens to her, even though
you know he's a terrorist and he's like needs to
be pissed on, but like he he says okay, and

(40:26):
they negotiate, and then that's the end of the scene.
And I guess my problem. I do like that you
see her take an active role and do something. The
trouble is it doesn't really have anything to do with
the plot, so we could cut that scene out of
the movie and it wouldn't make any difference. Basically, that's
a good point. And then there's a moment later on,
as you mentioned, when she becomes a dance well right
before that, she's in the room with Hans and I

(40:47):
think this is after he has learned who she is,
that she is John mcclean's wife, and she's very different
if everyone was texting each other instead of on public
walkie talks. But she said something like, all of your posturing,
all of your speeches, you're nothing but a common thief.
And then he wigs out, he and he runs over

(41:08):
and he's like, I'm an exceptional thief. How dare you
that's like every man in any situation? How dare you
emasculate me? I'm great at what I did. I once
dated someone who I corrected because he said the wrong
thing in a McDonald's drive through, and he was like,
I've actually always prided myself and how well I order things,

(41:32):
So actually you wanted to mcdouble. I heard it, and
you will eat it anyway, That's what I thought. Yeah. Sure.
So he kidnaps her then and he's holding her at gunpoint.
So John McClean has to do the thing that drives
me nuts, where he has to save a woman who's

(41:54):
in the damsel in distress. Uh, and he does it
by you know, pulling the gun at he's taped to
his act by lying on the ground and with the
tape face up. You know how we've all done that.
And then uh, he shoots Hans, and then there's he
has to save Holly again. Whenever Hans is kind of
like stumbling out through the window, grabs Holly by the

(42:14):
wrist and he's like about to pull her over the ledge.
So John McClinton comes and he undoes her Rolex watch
band and then the watch flies off and then Hans
falls and we're like, ya, I argue too that that's
like a symbol role ax off of like this thing
you just got for I mean, like logistically we know

(42:35):
he has to tear that off, but I think it's
like that's what she got for her good work. And
he's throwing that right, and he's like funck this, And
she wouldn't have thought herself, dude, like hey, he's got
my watch, let's undo it. He was like out of
the way, little lady. I'll do your watch for like
that was. That was a symbolic I wrote that down too,
And whether you know the filmmakers intended for that to

(42:56):
happen or not, me is a good audience member, was like,
this is my brain seeing this visual symbolism, Killen, you're
really putting that master's degree to right, right. But the
other thing that drove me not about that moment is
that why couldn't she undo her own Like, why couldn't
we give her that moment exactly? She couldn't have been like,

(43:18):
I've got this one John Flank and then there we go.
But no, he's got to do it for right. So
it just drove me crazy that she didn't get her
own big moment like that, because you know who else
gets a moment like that for no reason? Pretty much
everyone else in the story. He and even less screen
time than Holly, I think. But he was like, let

(43:39):
me crash, and yeah, they make it, let him be
a hero. Totally. I forgot that's Holly does get a
moment like that. But for me, it's like rang kind
of hollow where a Holly she punches the journalists in
the face at the end of the movie. But for
me that that I was already incensed at that point
in the movie because it's set up so many times
where she's like Holly Jenny a Holly Gennaro, and we

(44:01):
know the moral of this movie is take the man's name,
you belong to him, So like, you know that that's coming,
and she's gonna be like Holly McClain and we're like,
welan hand her own armies, and that's like the moral
of the film. So it's already mad because you know
that's coming, and by the time she punched the journalists

(44:23):
in the face. But it's also just kind of something
we've talked about a lot before, of like giving a
female character and action to do in order to impress
the men around her that has no bearing on the plot.
This happens in action movies all the fucking time, just
like the fucking McSweeney's article that we talked about. Every
single kick I'm a woman and I'm going to kick

(44:44):
one time, and all the men are like, whoa, we
take she's hot and she kicked one time. We take
her serious, now, like and that was how that one
the one physical action and she also she only takes
physical action way after it has any bearing. Stakes are

(45:06):
non existent now because the movie is over the tourist danger.
If she would have killed the last guy, that would
have been good. Yeah, that would have been good. Oh
but I I liked that al did it. I don't know.
I likened like his shots. It would have been better
if it was just one shot and he killed him.
What do you do like? He unloaded like four or
five shots? Like seriously, that's why you re at a

(45:26):
desk out. I'm just saying, you know what I mean?
Sharpen up man? Why is an ol chief? That's why?
Exactly he's a bad shot. He killed a bystander and
broke a car window and then finally got him in
the shoulder. Can we talk about the surprise kiss that happens.
Let's do it? Okay, like blank and you'd miss it.

(45:49):
But when John mcclen first arrived at the party, a
man grabs him, says Merry Christmas, kisses him on the
cheek and then his face. He's just like just like
what a mail man, a man, a human man and
a man kiss me all. It's all. It's all very

(46:11):
like oh l a flora U West Coasters, what's next?
Keen wa like it's the whole thing, you know. Yeah,
although we didn't have keen in the eighties, but whatever, Yeah,
that that was a fun I was fully ready for
a surprise gets to happen in this movie, as happens
in almost every movie that we've seen. Almost every major

(46:33):
release of the past one hundred years features someone being
kissed at random without their consent. Of the time, it's
a woman. Every time we talk about surprise kiss, I've
just you know the movie I write the Mommy, Mommy
to talk about the money. Well, Brendan Fraser is literally
in a cage, completely feral, just lunges at Rachel White

(47:00):
and kisses her and then she goes, oh, it's my
bits the best moment in cinema, sol Right, this is
the first male on male surprise kiss that we see. Um,
so I just wanted to point that out that history
was made on the Bectel cast just now by us

(47:22):
talking about this. Uh, it was still fucked up and
consent important. But also, boy does Bruce Willis think boys
kissing his gross? Oh? Can we talk about One of
the other few female characters we see on screen that
has a speaking role is the emergency responder woman who's

(47:44):
very bad going on with her now completely enapt but
you didn't know what. They gave a lot of, like
the voice over parts to ladies, like the dispatcher in
the car, the women. There was a lot of sort
of like you know, disembodied female voices. Yeah, that's a lot.
I mean, I feel like that's a lot of a
lot of disembodied female voice. Has a lot of dissiploded
female body bars, a lot of screams that a lot

(48:04):
of women got to scream on camera and one lucky
woman came. One lucky woman got to scream and have
her tits. What a gift. Amazing role. They're a housekeeper.
I think probably had more. She did, had more dialogue
than like Justine. The top ten minutes of this movie

(48:27):
have the most female speaking roles of the entire movie.
Where we hear Holly talked to her assistant, we hear
talk to her daughter, and when here talked to her housekeeper.
They all have names and you're just like, WHOA, maybe
this is the bet And then John mcclaimed person. He's like,
why don't you have my name? And forty five hours

(48:48):
because this movie is very long. He's just like it's
just me now on the screen, no women allowed. There's
every time because I watched this movie twice before we
recorded this, and there there's like a thirty minutes where
I was like, not bat I was just pacing. It's
just like, oh, maybe Bruce Willis is skipping around. I
don't know what he's doing, cartwheels like. There's just a

(49:11):
long string of time where he's talking to himself and murdering,
but which I don't find very compelled. I don't know.
But his tank top though, goes from pretty pristine and
white to a little bloody to instantly black with dirt.
How did it get there? What happened? And then goes
back to being a little less dirty and like kind

(49:32):
of white again because they take it off at some point,
and then he takes it on. Oh he has it
on at the end, doesn't he does? He has a
jacket on. But the point is we do see nipples,
and it's important you get nips of all genders, are right.
But then the scene where you see the like the

(49:53):
bear lady's breasts or the lady's bear breast is how
you say that not a lady bear? Yeah? Right? Although
how many apple does a bear hat. I mean, no
one knows, No one knows. You can figure it out

(50:13):
to a bear to counter simples. Okay, I'm back, all right.
So you see the woman's bare breasts and fine female
nudity whatever. If it happens for no reason like it

(50:35):
does in this movie, pretty annoying. But if we are
going to see it, let us see some like male
size or something like like I was going to argue
from very early in this movie, we see Bruce Willis's
chest hair. Fully, it seems that it's been teased out
words his body. That seems like that was someone's job, definitely,

(50:57):
because then later you're because, I mean, my impress at
the beginning watching it this time, I was like, wow,
he must have a lot of chess hair because it's
like he can't control it. And then later when he
takes off his tank type, you're like, oh, there's really
not that, but what is there is just six inches
extended from his body. It's like, you know what Somewhere
they cut and they're like, can someone get on his

(51:19):
chess hair? Get on hair for prom can we get
there on his chest hair? We would like a full
perm It's with the eighties. They didn't know better, they
didn't know lu I loved Bruce. I'll say I loved
Bruce Wallis's voluminous chess hair. I thought it was great.

(51:40):
Can I say that there are hardly any women whose
names that we know in this movie, But there are
three different men who have the last name Johnson that
we know and they talk about it a lot. And
there's Agent Johnson, Special Agent Johnson, and Harvey Johnson, the
like newscaster on TV three guys with the last named Dick.

(52:02):
She was pretty much, this is Mr Penis here, and
he is business and he is money. Did we know
the pregnant Do we know the pregnant assistant? Or was
she just name Jenny? Yeah, we know her name? Yes, yes? Oh.
I wanted to go back to the so the emergency
responder woman who's very bad because John McClain is like, hey,
we're having a terrorist attack and she's like, doesn't sound

(52:24):
like it, and there's like rapid gunfire and she's like,
I don't think so, but maybe I'll send a cop over.
And it was just very frustrating to see one of
the few women on screen who has a speaking role
be very bad at her job, like aggressively to the
point of like, is this it clearly wasn't her first
day she was in charge? Actually was? And and and

(52:47):
also to see because Bruce Willis's character is very frustrated
with her and he's like, come on, dude, dude, send
the thing. And it's like, I'm kind of on his side,
like why isn't she doing her job? Unclear? Who knows?
We also see I've done a few places, we see
women who are not hostages in this movie, or as

(53:07):
I like to call them, full titty hostages. We have
we have Lucy McClain, the daughter. We have the housekeeper
whose name is Paulina Paulina. We have the emergency women
and her coworker who were both like, um, what is
a gunshot sound like? And then and then there's one

(53:28):
female on screen journalist for a split second movie who yeah,
who delivers Hey it's almost Christmas, And they're like, Okay,
we've had enough women, let's get let's cut back to
another person named Johnson. That's for sure as a movie
populated by almost entirely men, because all of the dozen
terrorists or men, I think, all of the cops, all

(53:50):
the l A p. D, all the FBI you see,
or all men. It would be so easy to have
like one of the Johnson FBI people. I feel like
they would have done that now, like and I think
in action filmmade in the last five years, one of
the terrorists would have been a woman. For sure. She
wouldn't have said anything, but she could fight. She would
beat when I'm the girl with her thighs. Yeah, that

(54:11):
would be her gig. You know, I am kicked lady, absolutely,
but she was all She would also probably be the
leaders like lady, you know what I mean. It would
be a moment where he'd like make up with her
and then kill a man and make no mistakes. She
would be very hot. She was deadly hot. And then
and then then one of the cops would have been
a woman as well. Yeah right, but never the main,

(54:32):
never the main. She would have been like she'd be like, like,
it's my first day. I'm not going to be able
to do much. Yeah, so we do a car. I'm
gonna stay in the in the car. That's think of
the bit. How far we've come in thirty years. Hard
no woman could be around, but they cannot speak or
do anything. I'll have to admit that I I've only

(54:56):
seen die Hard too, and then none of the other sequels,
So you in the audience probably have seen more clap
if you've seen a die harded sequel. Okay, yeah, really three?
I saw three, and then I think I saw the
one with I think Justin is just as long as
the number four, number four. I saw three and four
skip two. But I saw three and four, And I

(55:17):
know there's a fifth one, right, there's a fifth. There's
because there's one. There's one die Hardest, die die Hardly,
I think die Hard. I think there's also one. Remember
when Bruce Willis was like, we're not gonna swear in
this one, and then there's no cursing in one of

(55:38):
them because it was the whole thing was motherfucker fucker.
And then the next one was all like gosh, darn it.
You know there was a lot of that. Yeah, I
hate that. I don't remember which one was, might have
been five. I think terrorists stink, they're they're rotten to
the core, those jerks, right when people shoot their lover's sake,

(55:58):
when they do it, that was always. Yeah, I love God,
I love I wish I had silly fruitcakes. I wish
I had seen Die Hard on like a cable edit,
because there's nothing better than reaction. I think I brought
this up multiple times, but I saw Kill Bill for
the first time on on on and there's that great.

(56:20):
I mean, it's great both ways. But the scene and
Kill Bill one where he says, my name's book I
like to fuck right on TND. It's fully dubbed, well
enough that until I saw it on DVD, I did
not know my name is Buck and I like to
go to parties. I was like, Oh, what a very thing,

(56:49):
same thing. What a strange light of dialogue. There's way
too many syllables. One syllable go to parties, four syllables,
Like well, that's pretty I mean, I guess that we
know who this character is now, but but he's about
to die. Why do we need to know? Another one
less point I wanted to make is that we often

(57:09):
talk about how women of color even have less representation
than white women in movies, and this is for sure
true of this, although there are several men of color
with pretty significant roles between Al pal Ceo, which is
the black hacker on The Terrorists of Things, Argyle Takagi,
the CEO question Mark don't know what everyone who works

(57:32):
there's got a question mark next to their job, and
then one of the special agent Johnson the Johnson's whereas, Okay,
yeah they're not right, you're not wrong, but correct me
if I'm wrong. I think the only woman of color

(57:52):
screen is Paulina housekeeper, so all the men, I think
the one screaming woman in a crowd. But that's right,
an extra. It did seem though that um, all of
it was kind of like a gender split, men and
women pretty balanced out of the people who worked at
the Nakatomi Corporation. I didn't I didn't notice. I I
spotted five women at that party, spotted fire in too

(58:17):
bare breasts or as you put it, a beare woman's breasts. Yeah,
but they're they were only as by my account, there
was only like five or six women at the party,
which I'm sure represented about how many women would be
working at a business business corporation at that time business
company there. There weren't a ton of women at the party, unfortunately. Yeah,

(58:40):
I miscounted. I have a master's agreen screenwriting, not math.
But yeah, it was just I thought worth noting that
the one woman of color you see on screen has
you know, she's a housekeeper, nothing wrong with that, but
you know, in a leadership role or anything like that,
whereas you have you know, cops and FBI dudes and

(59:02):
stuff like that. Yeah. So but technically does pass the
test thought because they there's ladies have conversations. Yeah we will,
we will get yeah, yeah, well we'll we'll break it down.
But before we do that, should we do our game? Yes,
let's do it. Okay, So God, so it's all imes house.
So we're like, hey, let's do something. So something we

(59:24):
like to do on the Bettel Castle lot if if
you're a listener, is we like to call various toxic
men feminist icons for fun. So I devised a game
for us to play featuring a bunch of men that
we've discussed either today on a separate episode or just

(59:45):
I wanted you to look at the picture of them, uh,
and we'll have our guest Debora determine if they are
a feminist icon, a queer icon, or trash that belongs
in the garbage. Uh. And then we're going to consult
with you guys to to see if if you agree. Unfortunately,
whatever Caitlin and I think is the answer, all right,

(01:00:08):
So if we could just go to the first slide,
John McClean and die Hard, how do we feel feminist icon,
queer icon belongs in the garbage? I would say just
because of the tank top queer icon. Am I right,
there's a there's a lot of tank top. Well, what
do you guys, what do we think queer icon? I
think queer icon? I think whatever? Next one, Gerard Butler

(01:00:29):
has Fantom of the Opera. What do we think, queer icon,
queer trash, trash show? He's a queer icon. Look at
his mask. He's holding a roast show cash and this

(01:00:52):
is Jim Carey and Jim Carrey's show boats for a
hundred twenty minutes to the delight of no one, and
how they he's a garbage that belongs in the trash.
Am I right, yes, that's correct. Adult grench is trash.
Next slide, Hans Grouper and I heard feminist icon, queer icon,

(01:01:13):
garbage that belongs in the trash? Really testing your how
in the trash? What are we thinking is icon? Why
could he talk to a woman one time? I don't
What do you think? I think he's a feminist icon? Alright?

(01:01:33):
Debork Okay, okay, you got it. Next one, Baby Grench.
Here's where I thought, what about baby Grinch. That's a
feminist icon. I would also say he's also queer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fems.
Baby Grinch very iconic, very icon Yeah, how could you

(01:01:58):
not fall in love? The next one, Malcolm Crow in
a different Bruce Willis Cower Terminus say garbage that belongs
in the trash. I would say that, what do you
think I haven't seen that moving forever? So sure, garbage,
I think we have we have some people garbage. Okay, garbage.
He's garbage. He's garbage. Next one. That's next one, Hayley

(01:02:22):
Joel ask me, but but not in the sixth sense.
In sex Head, where he plays a sex said teacher,
queer icon, Am I right? Come on, yes, it's like no,
he's a becomes an old man with a baby's face.
Am I right? That is? That is fine? It was

(01:02:47):
as STDs slaying the clap. There's I'm not even gonna
say queer icon. I'm gonna say strictly lesbian icon, like
just strictly what do we think? Okay, he's an icon
one period feminist icon, beetle juice feministic feminist icon. Yeah,

(01:03:09):
while his title is feminist iconic, feministic, the movie is
feminist text beetles. Yeah, well that's an easy one. That's
an easy one except for a safe and Harry Potter
queer eye caller. All right, yeah, yeah, discusses. He's for
sure not a feminist icon, but he is, yes, alright,

(01:03:29):
Next one fourth grade grade. I feel like that's a
perfect tie of all three. That is baby queer queer,
No one feminist queer. So this one's queer adult trash.
He was trash, It's for sure trash. Then yeah, whatever,

(01:03:56):
Next okay, fine, Alpha Molina Inspirement feminist icons and Jamie's
husband feminist icon. I'm soaking wet, I my freaking pants.
I was amazing. Remember good he was to his wife
though in that movie, Like, let's be honest, he was
really a teacher and it was all great. He was.

(01:04:16):
He was right next to his rose. Okay, anyway, Alan
die Hard feminist icon, queerer icon, queer icon, feminist ychon
because a feminist icon because he's he's like, my wife's
pregnant and I'm addicted to her. Okay, you know, I
don't know what do you think feminist do you guys think,

(01:04:36):
although it's also very body positive, it's like, look at him,
come on, do you know I mean, there's no way
he could be a street cop. Jesus Christ, Let's be honest.
You know what I mean. He's at a desk because
he needs to be at a desk. He's a desk man.
He's a feminist. Feminists. Yeah, that's it, all right, that's
my type of desk man. Next one, Oh, Bruce, this

(01:04:58):
is Bruce will Is frantically. I mean, he's not a Republican.
I hate government. I'm a political Write that down. I'm
not a Republican. Bruce Willis is fully Republican, but he
spends a lot of time telling people he's not. Is
this a feminist icon, queer icon or trash move? Trash?
Brust wise is trash? Can we just note that that

(01:05:18):
quote comes from quote fancy guys, I have a membership
with quote fancy dot com. Bumblebee in the Transformers franchise. Yeah, Bumblebee,
come on? Where? God I wish that was. Michael Bay
would be so mad if he knew that Bumblebee was

(01:05:39):
a queer high Oh my god, are you kidding? He
set this place on fire, all right. Next one cartoon
Grinch feministic. I'm just gonna say icon period icon iconic
cartoon Grinch. I cook that face? Come on, I know,
all right. Next one Alfred Molina and Bagheina. Oh he's

(01:06:02):
a feminist icon and the queer icon and just remember
it was great. He's the beginning of the middle in
the end, everything is that? Is that the final one?
All right? And that is a game we call feminist
icon quer icon bart belongs in the trash. You can
play that at home with your family over a Christmas holidays. Yeah,

(01:06:23):
see what I see? Where your family's loyalties live. What
does your family think of every phase of the Grinch's life?
I'll forward you my power plant. So should we talk
about whether or not the movie passes the Bechtel tests?
We already hinted that it does. It does because it
does whoa very quickly, Holly talks to her assistant, James

(01:06:46):
name Jenny. Jenny. Holly says, Jenny, it's five forty, go
join the party, have some champagne. You're making me feel
like Ebenezer Scrooge. She does mention a man, but then
Jenny in a bad reference. Though, if the joke sucks?
Is it? If she had said, you're making me feel
like feminist icon the Grinch feminist slash queer icon, you

(01:07:09):
know it's crazy, and she was talking about the Grunch,
I'd be like, she's not talking about a man, She's
talking about it an idea. The Grinch is non binary
as fuck. I know that. Okay, I we've this is crazy,
and this is like how hard it is to get
a movie to pass the Bechtel test. Sometimes we've had
a situation before where it's two women talking about a

(01:07:30):
fictional man and we're like, what does it mean? Does
it count as a man if the man doesn't real?
And that is just indicative of Wow, women are not
talking a lot in this movie. Well, and so Jenny
responds and says, thanks a lot, Mrs McClean, do you
think the baby can handle a little sip? Uh? And

(01:07:51):
then Holly says the baby is ready to tend bar
And it's a hilarious joke that we all laugh. That's
a funny fetal alcoholic cynroum gag. That is a feminist
iconic scene. So I would argue that that does pass
because the last two lines of that exchange they're talking
about the baby making feetal alcohols. We don't know is

(01:08:18):
she what she was? She just dating at Johnson in
there with you know what. But there's more, there's more
scenes where it passes. Yes. So shortly after that, she
calls her home and Lucy picks up her daughter, who
does us the favor of stating her full name, Yeah,
McLean residents, Lucy McClean speaking, it's like, okay, exposition, have
you calmed down? Yeah? And then she says, hello, Lucy McClean,

(01:08:41):
this is your mother speaking, and she says, Mommy, when
are you coming home? Pretty soon? You'll be in bed
when I get there because I'm not spending Christmas Eve
with my family. Instead, I'm talking to the troops, talking
to the troops with HOLLYE. Jennaro coming soon to Public
Access TV. And then she says, don't go snipping around
the house for presents. Let me talk to Paulina. And

(01:09:02):
then Lucy says, is daddy coming home? So a man
does get mentioned there, but still then I would say
past the best. And then immediately afterward with her housekeeper,
it passes again, although they do spend most of that
conversation talking about John McClean. Is there there's no exchange
in there? Uh? Well, Paulina says, Ola, Mrs Holly, and

(01:09:25):
he says, is it the dialogue goes better? Is it
my impression that's bad? No, I'm just I'm just saying
that the only woman of color, Lucy on screen, is
put in a like the role that is very stereotypical. Sure, yes, uh.
And then Holly says, did Mr McClean call so not
so much? Paulina says no, Mrs Holly, no telephone, and

(01:09:48):
Holly says he probably didn't have time before it's flight.
It might be a good idea to make up the
spare bedroom just in case. And then Paulina says, I
do that already, and Holly said, what would I do
without you? Paulina, I would say that conversation does not
pass the test because they're pretty much exclusively talking about
Mr McClean. I I agree with you. Yeah, I mean,

(01:10:10):
we can get into the semantics of it, but what
I mean the movie does pass. But to my knowledge
is that the last time it passes, Jenny comes in
a little bit later to say, hey, Mr Takagi is
looking for you. He wants you to say something to
the troops. Yeah, but Mr Takagi and also so it
does not pass. Does the trees are Later when they're
at the party and she's like, he's alive, and then

(01:10:32):
I don't think respond Yeah, I think she's she's too pregnant,
she of her baby. She's like, actually I just had
three yeager bombs relatively useless at present? Is that the
last time that women's there's one more time where the

(01:10:53):
two emergency responder women John McClean has like radioed for help,
the first woman. We don't know their names, so it
does not pass by the way. Um, the first woman
says it's the same address as the fire signal, and
then the second lady, who's very bad a job, says
I'll handle it and then does a really bad job
of handling it. Yeah. So those are all the exchanges

(01:11:13):
that women have in the movie Diying Hard. So most
of them don't pass, but the first couple do. Surprised.
One more thing I wanted to talk about before we
let everyone free, uh is the end of this movie
is so frustrating to watch because we see John McClean
have this big revelation where he says to al for

(01:11:36):
some reason, I say I love you to my wife
all the time, but I've never said I'm sorry. And like,
this is a big revelation and it's kind of like
a very emotional moment for a male action hero to have.
And I was like, oh, this is cool, this is good.
He's like working through some stuff. Movie is so complex, right,
But then we see the problem resolved, the terrorists are

(01:12:00):
no longer an issue. He goes to his wife and
we already see that scene where she's like he's going
to save us or whatever, and it's like, oh, she's
taking his last name back. This is not good. She
said something like oh he's still alive. Only John could
make someone that crazy, right, right, And I'm just like, oh,
they're gonna fund later. This is exhausting. And there but

(01:12:22):
the end, then at the end, he has this whole
revelation about like I should just say sorry. And then
at the end, not only does she take his name back,
he does not say sorry, not to her. He's just
like he's like, oh, I had to say to my
wife as I'm sorry, And then he kills Alan Rickman
makes out with her and he's like, you have my
last name again. Let's get out of here, he never

(01:12:44):
So it's just like this whole example, like it's all
set up for him to grow as a person, but
we don't actually get to see him do it that
that woman is robbed of that opportunity to be apologized to,
because like that whole subplot is like, I don't respect
your career choices and I'm threatened by your success. And
then he's like, tell my wife, I'm sorry and I

(01:13:05):
should have supported her. I can't tell her to her face,
and I can't. I can't with that there. I mean,
And it's that time of year now where, especially this year,
every woman should just be profusely apologized to by every
man they've ever met. It's the new hello for men.
I'm so very sorry. God. Alright, Well that's that was Yeah. No,

(01:13:31):
Does anyone have any other final thoughts before we rate? No,
I'm exausted. The audience members, how anything they want to
pipe in? Any questions queries? Yeah, it's it's very sad
and frustrating to hear about John and Holley's relationship because
it does completely break down by the end, doesn't it.
Yeah yeah, yeah, oh wow, Although it seems like that's

(01:13:57):
where it was headed in movie one where it's like
and she seems pretty done, but he's like, put my
footpled and I like you. She's like, all right, because
we'll give her another dry there. That's a bummer. I
didn't know that's how it ends. Good point. Yeah, I'd
say that this is pretty progressive women because even though

(01:14:17):
you have the two incompetent women, Paully seems very competent.
So the percentage of competent women to the percentage of
competent men, you have John mcclaim and al our competent Yeah,
one competent woman. That's true, like all the idiots, like
all the cops are idiots. That's true. And it was
that's what we're forgetting. It's yet competent women. And you know,

(01:14:39):
let's be honest, Paulina, what would we do without Paulina.
She's doing a good job and that she's raising competence.
Fair nice. I think it's so funny because it's like, yeah,
the women in the higher percentage of competence, but everyone's
still failing. That's that's an excellent point, Paulina. Oh yes,

(01:15:06):
oh my god, maybe we didn't remember that. Yes, yeah,
there is a moment where the journalists burst into their
home and threatened to deport Paulina, who has done literally
nothing except be herself and have her job and you know,
like exist, and she has to be threatened to do
something she would have done anyways. So yeah, that's a

(01:15:29):
good point. Good, yeah, totally a question to who would
you cast in a Ghostbuster style? Oh my god? Okay, okay,
can Galgadope do something? Yes, it is Hans Grouper. I'm batty.

(01:15:51):
What's your face? Um? Oh god? Uh did you all
see thor? What's her name? Oh my god, I'm lost.
O our beautiful said, yeah, she was amazing, right, amazing.
She could be I don't know, she could be al
Could she be al? She could be albow? Absolutely? And then, um,
who's gonna be John McClinton, baby Betty Rich, Babbie Graney,

(01:16:18):
baby Gridge. I say Leslie Jones. I say Leslie Jones
should be amazing. I would love to cast Alpha Molina
as Lucy mccland. I'm sorry it's not an all female reboot,
but I think he really is a chameleon and he
could be he could be the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:16:43):
he'd be like I'm what was her job? I am business?
She's about a negotiator, and then he'd be like, actually,
my last name is Molina. I love this. Okay, so
that's a good one. That's fun, that's great. Uh yeah,
I'd wait till we miss any other major parts. Does
everybody right? It's our Yeah, who do I want to put?
Who do We're posing them as the breakout star of

(01:17:05):
our all female litle bit of die Hard. What's her names? Unprodouncible.
You want to say serious, but it's not a serious
forget it. Devado Is couldn't say the other one is amazing. Well,

(01:17:35):
let's let's write it. Let's write the movie on our
nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on its portrayal
of women, I'm gonna give it one and a half
because it's still very much a man's story populated with
almost entirely men. You do see one pretty competent woman,
but she's framed as like the wife, and she isn't

(01:17:58):
respected by her husband, and that's a whole story line
of the movie. And she gets no screen time, neither
do hardly any other women. And it's not the feminist
masterpiece we're all hoping for. I felt so certain it was.
I know but it doesn't get like no nipples, because
I do think that Holly is competent, although she is

(01:18:21):
robbed in many ways of opportunities to do something more
pleasantly surprised that it passes the Bechdel test and does
feature a competent female character for a movie that came
out in So, yeah, I'm gonna say one and a
half nipples are you giving your nipples to? I'm going
to give one to Hans and his bad accent, and

(01:18:43):
the half nipple will go to because we see his nipple.
I'm gonna give it to John McClean. There you go.
I am going to give this movie. Oh this feels
like too much, but I'm gonna give it two and
a half nipples for all the reasons you describe. But
I also think we get to talk about this a lot.
But I do think that it's interesting watching an action

(01:19:04):
hero like John McClain almost universally fail when he tries
hyper masculine tactics to solving a problem, Like most of
the things that actually work for John McClain are what
his wife is really good at, which is negotiating, Like
if Holly McClain or Holly, Sorry, Holly Jenniro. I'm so sorry.

(01:19:25):
If Holly Jenniro was in the bathroom at the beginning
of this movie, this movie would be fifteen minutes long,
because she would have been able to get them out
of it without all the fucking show pony posturing that
Bruce Willis has to do to be like I have
to have a gun and there's a warning and there's
a like. She had the skill set the whole time
to resolve the whole movie, and none of us would
have had to see die hard. Um So, I I

(01:19:47):
do think it's interesting that John mcclin's character, even though
we are led to believe by the end, does not
intend to apply these lessons to his life. But he
does learn the lesson that not only does his wife
skills have value, and that she has a lot of value,
but that the skills make more sense than the like

(01:20:07):
hyper masculine aggro cop tactics that he's been taught. So
I think that there's a there is like a little
bit there that I liked. Uh So I'll give it
two and a half, given two nipples to the baby
Grinch and give a half nipple to Paulina because she
deserved more, all Right, I'm gonna give it one nipple.

(01:20:28):
This is mono nipular to me, and that is the
edit the word. I'm just giving it one nipple because
it just didn't. It didn't do what it should for women.
And my nipple is going to go to Argyle because
he needs it, you know what I mean, milk that
Oh my god, poor boy. But yeah, I mean it's
yeah for what it is. And you know that that
whole thing about the five in the five movies, their

(01:20:50):
their relation breakdown. That's I'm also giving it one because
I'm remembering now they do they don't make it work,
and that's you know what. You know, Holly should have
just conling at fair least, right, Yeah, they didn't make
it work. Well, the guys, that's too hard. D thank
you so much for he's the best renewed with mental

(01:21:12):
fucking world. He is the greatest. Give it up for
Deborah dg of money. Thanks go out best