Emma. (2020)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
in best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello,
and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus,
my name is Kaitlin Durante, and this is our show

(00:24):
where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. That's Stan Ray.
Have you ever heard of it? I haven't heard of it,
which is really embarrassing at this point. I don't and
I've been bluffing my way for over half a decade now. Yeah,

(00:45):
we've been doing the show for six years, James, really
really a long time. It is March, which means it's
International Women's History Month. I honestly don't know why international
has to be like specified, because if you eliminate it,
the meaning is much the same. But anyways, true, we

(01:06):
wanted to make sure we were featuring women directors this month, obviously,
and we had in the works an episode on The
Women King that we'll be coming out, but it won't
be coming out until April because of a bunch of
scheduling stuff, so we wanted to make sure we were
featuring women directors this month. Yeah, and that is why
this week we are unlocking a Patreon aka Matreon episode

(01:31):
that I'm rather proud of. Honestly, we did so much
homework for this one, and by that I mean we
read a book. But for a movie podcast reading a book,
it's not easy. Extra credit. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard,
and reading is hard. No, but yes, this is part
of our Matreon theme January aka Austin August aka Jane

(01:58):
Austen month. Yes on the Matreon. We did it. Last
year we also covered the Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice
adaptation with Kiera Knightley and Tom from Succession. However, Joe
Wright is famously a man, so he doesn't qualify it
for this and so what we are unlocking is the
twenty twenty adaptation of Emma starring Annya Taylor Jolie that's

(02:21):
directed by Autumn deWilde, also written by a woman, Eleanor Katon,
which we will discuss in the episode as well, but
too great in my opinion, too great. Jane Austen adaptations.
Is it and is it? Clueless grade greatness? Nothing is
that's the best adaptation of Emma. However, this is my

(02:43):
second favorite and we really enjoyed the movie and we
think that you will too. If you haven't seen it,
should check it out. Yeah, go watch it? She wi
is what are you doing? Also, one other quick housekeeping thing.
If if you are listening to us for the first
time right now because you found us through Apple Podcasts, Welcome,

(03:07):
We're the back too. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hi. We're being
featured on Apple Podcasts this month. We're highlighted as featured creators.
So if you happen to find us through the podcast
search feature, Welcome. We've been around for a while. We've

(03:27):
been doing the show forever six years now, and we
hope you enjoy the show. We've been you know, learning, growing,
and watching a shitload of movies for a long time.
It's true. It's all true. It's all true. So welcome.
If you're new, Welcome back. If you've been with us
for a long time, Welcome medium. If you came kind

(03:48):
of recently, but you're like, well, I'm not new. There.
It's a spectrum. Listening to something like well, I'm not new,
but I wouldn't say I'm old. Well guess what, there's
not a word for that. But you're welcome there. Yes,
we we appreciate you. We appreciate everyone who's listening right now. Also,
if you enjoyed this. If you enjoyed this episode, feel

(04:10):
free to check out our patreon akamatreon at patreon dot
com slash Beechdel Cast. You'll notice the discussions are a
little looser, a little goofier, and normally we have a
guest on our main feed, but on the Patreon it's
it's just Caitlin and myself shooting the shit and having
a nice time. So we hope you enjoy it. Yeah,
just to foreshadow a little something on this episode is

(04:34):
how much we talk about Pokemon. Really yeah, all right,
Well look we were still somewhat locked down when we
recorded this, so you may notice that energy present in
whatever's going on, all right Pokemon? Fine, yeah, fine, it's

(04:55):
not against the lull noise, So please please enjoy this
unlocked episode of Emma twenty twenty. Okay, it's still January
aka Austin August aka Jane Austen November. Yes it is,

(05:18):
and we are closing it out with an episode on
Emma Period. I did not know at first that this
movie has punctuation. Unnecessary punctuation. Oh in the title, I know.
Did you read the reason why too? It's pretty corny.
Oh no, no, no, I believe it's autumn. deWilde was like,
it's a period piece, so I put it was like,

(05:40):
that's kind of funny. It also in any times the
director of this movie. I was such a pleasure getting
like acquainted with her as a person and an idea
because I'm like now fully like just like I will
go wherever she takes us forever, like she's so cool.
But yeah, because I because maybe it was an interview

(06:02):
I was reading with her, but yeah, there's a period
in it, because she's like at the period beast put
a period at the end. Wow, I'm like, well, of
all the reasons to do that, that is at least
a pretty funny reason, I allow it. Yeah, right, okay, right, okay.
So we're covering Emma Period from twenty twenty. It's one

(06:24):
of the last movies that was released in theaters before
the COVID nineteen pandemic. Ever heard of it? I remember
I almost saw it and then I didn't, and then
I experienced regrets. You know what I saw it? What
I see instead? Oh you know what I saw Invisible Man?
And yeah, same portrait of a lady on fire. It

(06:44):
wasn't too you know, I could have done much worse.
I liked both of those movies. Yeah. One of the
last movies I saw in theaters pre pandemic was Oh,
my gosh, what's it called. It's the Pixar movie about
the like fairy tale creature people onwards. Oh, the one

(07:04):
with the Chris Pratt pants Dad Dad pants, My dad
is pants and I'm Chris Pratt right, Yeah, it's just
what the fuck was that movie? There's gonna be a
million people at the comments like that movie changed my life,
And I'm sure, I'm sure it's great, but I only
know that movie is like Chris Pratt's Dad is pants.

(07:25):
You're like, I just like, I'm sure that. Like most
Pixar movies are very heartwarming, this one did make me cry.
I'm sure, I mean all, like most Pixar movies, that's
like what they're genetically engineered to do. I just like
the way this one was marketed specifically. I just thought
was so weird. I was like, I don't want to
see the Chris Pratt pants Dad movie, and I reserved

(07:48):
that right and I and you know, maybe I'll see it.
Sometimes I think, did you hear a glass shatter? Am? I? Like?
Just now? No? No, things aren't at all? All is
not well? There? You know a Stabruary is really bringing
out in me? Is I want we should go back

(08:09):
to like naming our houses. I know that it's because
no one owns property and all these all these books
are about rich, but even like middle class families name
their house in Jane Austin World, which is also like
I'm sure that just happened. Yeah, I didn't realize that
was a thing. I mean, I guess I knew from
like Downton Abbey because their huge mansion is called Downton Abbey.

(08:32):
And then there's like I was like, what's it called?
I was like, what's the house called? But then, um,
mister Knightley and this story has an abbey as well.
I forget what his abbey is called. What constitutes an abbey?
Like what I don't When you say abbey, I feel
like it means like extra big, but like I'm sure

(08:53):
it means something specifically, like there's a mill, or there's
like a church, or there's a fawm or something. Right,
what's the difference between like an estate and an abbey
and a palace and a castle, because all of these
structures are big. So I don't know what's what bing bong,

(09:14):
I don't know. You know, I'm no fucking clue he's
gotten an abbey. I just this, Okay, yeah, so I'm
going to start thinking of place. You know. I like
that they name the houses, but all the ways that
they name the houses stuck. They're like it's like corn
wall and you're like, okay, that's just a compound word.
I don't know. Let's just work on it, because look,

(09:35):
we're never going to own any but I'll you know,
I'll name my half of the duplex that I read. Sure,
I'll name that. Why not until I'm evicted any day now,
I hope not. Well, no, my whatever, But you know
they can. I'm on a month to month lease. They
can just they try it. Do you remember matrons over

(09:56):
the summer of my landlords are like, we're going to
sell the house and you'll just kind of be shit
out of luck. But like, we don't know when but
you could be shit out of luck at any second, right,
So I was like, oh, and then they failed to
sell the house. Okay, so well I have a home
good news for you for now. Just I don't know
landlords should just fucking explode in Minecraft, of course, which

(10:18):
I know is something that you have to say. Um, well,
we're talking about more rich people from England today because
we're talking about Jane Austen's Emma period period. Yeah, okay,
we're not talking about Gwyneth Paltrow. Did you watch Gwyneth Paltrow?
You watch you rewatched Clueless? Right, correct? And I really
thought about watching for the first time because I hadn't

(10:40):
seen Gwyneth Paltrow's Emma So I was like, yeah, I
should watch that just in case it's helpful. But what
did I do instead is play Pokemon? Okay, So well, yeah, matrons,
we're working really hard for your five dollars over here.
Jesus Christ, Kate like you've in my defense, yeah, it's
for my mental health. That's not a good excuse. I

(11:04):
think it's a great excuse for my mental health. I
have to play Pokemon for eighty five hours there is Yeah, sorry,
I'm feeling spicy today. It's good. Um Okay. I saw
Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth Paltrow Emma. Back in the day, we
were talking about this with the Pride and Prejudice episode
where it was like, oh, there was like gen X

(11:26):
Pride and Prejudice, and then Kiera Knightley is millennial Pride
and Prejudice. There's kind of not a millennial Emma. I
think that they did gen X was Gwyneth and then
this is fully gen z Emma. This is not this
does not belong to us, but we're allowed to enjoy
it and look at it. But like Anya Taylor Joy,
she belongs to them. She does not belonged to us,

(11:47):
just because she's so young. Yeah, and just like the
aesthetic of this movie. I mean, this movie is so esthetic,
it's beautiful. Yeah. Anyways, this is gen Z Emma period
and I really like it. What is your experience with
the story, Emma in general? Not much. I had seen

(12:09):
Clueless a few times. Oh yes, but I don't think
I knew the first few times I watched Clueless that
it was a Jane Austen adaptation. I definitely didn't the
first Yeah, I don't think I knew that until like
at least college, right, But I haven't read the book
and I haven't seen the Gwyneth Paltrow Emma. Yeah, so

(12:30):
this is my first exposure to this story. I've seen
it three times now between I had some time between
my Pokemon Pokemon hours that I was putting in to
watch Emma three times, so I did that. But yeah,
I did not read the book for this one. I
read Pride and Prejudice, so I filled my book quota

(12:54):
of reading one book per year. So I don't have
much exposure to Emma. But Jamie, you did read the book.
Reread the book. I reread the book, and by that
I mean, of course I listened to the audio book
at one point five speed. And yeah, I guess I'm

(13:17):
like fully too much Emma this week for old Jamie.
Too much. But I'm glad I read the book because
because the changes of the movie makes is really really
really interesting to me. But like I saw Clueless starting
in high school, didn't know that it was Jane Austen adaptation,
so it's almost like it doesn't really even count in

(13:39):
my brain. Sure, And also Clueless is so different in
a lot of ways, you know, and I would say
many better ways. But I read the book in high school.
I saw the Gwyneth Paltrow movie in high school. I
think I liked it, I don't really remember. And then
I was I think this has also been like you know,

(14:00):
miniseries did and all this stuff. But I was really
excited for the twenty twenty Emma period because it was,
you know, an adaptation that was directed by a woman.
It just looked really I don't know, like you know,
I was just genuinely excited to see it because sometimes
you're like, this movie just looks beautiful, like it just looks, yeah, delicious,

(14:24):
and I want to watch it. And it was, you know,
like written and directed by women. I like Anya Taylor
Joy who. I feel like this was like this movie
came out like right before she popped off, because this
was pre Chess Netflix. Am I talking about Queen scam Bit. Yes,
Chess Netflix. That's so funny. I feel like I should

(14:48):
be dating a guy named Chess Netflix. Oh my gosh,
that's a great character. Please write something. Yeah, Chess Netflix.
It's like my new rich boyfriend. I'm like, guys, this
is Chess Chess Netflix. We met at a party. I
don't know. He just slid into my dams and now
it's been four months. Congrats. Speaking of mister Chess, Emma

(15:08):
or mister Netflix, I guess Emma actually hooked us up.
She she does these things sometimes, she's a matchmaker like that.
I'm her Harriet, and she hooked me up with Chess Netflix.
He's awful. Um Okay, So anyways, I like Annya Taylor Joy.
I had only known her in The Vivich I think,
and I hadn't even seen it at that point, but

(15:29):
I'm like, oh, it's the the vivic girl that has
those big old eyes and oh oh. I was mostly
excited to see this movie because fucking Bill of I
Frankenstein Fame is in it, so that was There's that.
I feel like we texted about it when we both
first saw the trailer because there's that great trailer moment

(15:51):
slash movie moment in general where Bill Nigh hops down
the stairs. It goes like, dude, I caught like best
part of the movie, and I really like to the movie,
but it's like the best part of the movie absolutely,
So I was very stoked to see the movie. I
watched it on HBO when it was on HBO, and
then I was excited to revisit it for this. I

(16:12):
think it's an it's a good adaptation. I really like
what they changed because the book is very bizarre. I'm
excited to talk about that a little bit as well.
The book is like it's it's good and like the
literary sense and you know, whatever changed the shape of
the novel forever blah blah blah, like I get it. Sure,

(16:34):
bookheads don't come for me, but just like this, the
way the story plays out is interesting to me because
I feel like and then I frantically googled my own
opinion to see if I was you know, if your
opinion was correct. Yeah, to see if my opinion had
been corroborated by someone who knows who can read a book,

(16:55):
and it has been corroborated. Is I think the emma
of the book look ends up regressing by the end
of the story. But the way that it's been adapted
for twenty twenty, which I think is smart in terms
of like you want as a moviegoer to get some
payoff and feel like the character has grown in the book.

(17:16):
I don't think that she really grows very much because
the ending is different and by the end you're just
like it just is sort of one of those I
feel like this is like a Victorian novel or just
like sometimes a novel thing in general, where like things
move slow, slow, slow, slow slow, and then it's like
whatever the protagonist is at their slow they're at the whatever.

(17:39):
The second act, end of the second act of a
novel is the low point. Yeah. But then but then
in some but then like things just kind of like
very abruptly work out sure, and it has kind of
nothing to do with any action that the protagonist takes. Right, Well,
let's take a quick break and then we will come
back for the recap. Okay, we're back, and here is

(18:07):
what happens in the movie Emma Woodhouse. We get some
text on screen that she is handsome, clever, and rich
and has lived nearly twenty one years in the world
with very little to distress or vex her. Woo. We
meet her. She's Annie Taylor Joy. Of course, her whole
thing is that she loves to match make for other people,

(18:28):
and she has just done this for her I wasn't
sure exactly who this was at first. I think it
was her former governess, Miss Taylor. I also don't know
what a governess is, like a like a tutor or
like a governess. Yeah, it's like a combo tutor and
nanny basically. Okay, yeah, got it. And they like live

(18:49):
in so it's like a permanent the house. Yeah right.
So Miss Taylor is about to get married and become
missus Weston, and she is therefore about to leave the
estate where Emma lives with her father, mister Woodhouse, and that,
of course is Bill Ni. So at the wedding between

(19:13):
Miss Taylor and mister Weston, we meet such people as
Miss Bates, who Emma thinks is very tiresome. Can I Yes,
there is a thing. And I think it's because we've
been doing Jane Austen and Cinderella adaptations. And I say
this as a woman with a kind of longish thin head.

(19:38):
Anytime in a damn period piece they want to telegraph
this woman is annoying and not very smart. They cast
someone that has my head shape, and I don't like it.
The actors who play there's always one step sister in
Cinderella that has my head shape, and then Miss Bates

(19:59):
my head there. Look what I'm saying is you can
cast me as woman is obviously supposed to be annoying
because I have the correct head shape. What is that?
I know what it is. We don't need to talk
about it, but I'm like, fuck you, it's rude leaf
I head alone. Yeah, sorry, Miss Bates. So Miss Bates

(20:19):
is there. Mister Elton is there. He is the vicar
who marries this couple. And there's also talk of the
groom's son, Frank Churchill, coming, but he never shows up.
Who do you think is the hottest guy in the movie? Oh,
good question? Um, my answer sucks for me. It's probably

(20:42):
between mister Mister Martin is pretty cute to me, just
as far as looks goes, not personality, but Frank Churchill
I would maybe kiss I also, Um, I like the
actor who plays mister Weston, and oh he's fun. I
like him. I don't know if I would kiss him
or not. I would kiss Bill Ni probably. What's do

(21:07):
you remember when Bill Nigh he said MW two. Uh yeah,
I will never forget the first time I heard Bill
Knight say mutwo, I like lost my fucking mind. Well,
now that I'm a Pokemon expert after playing five million

(21:28):
hours of Pokemon, and I think it's Arcius Arcis Archaius Arka.
I don't know, I don't know how it's pronounced. I'm
arresting you, but I know I would get just as
into it. Wait, I hold on, Okay, I can't stop
thinking about him saying it now. But we taught We've
talked about this on the Matreon before. I think about

(21:49):
how Bill nigh he didn't know anything about Pokemon and
then he started playing Pokemon Go, and then he was like,
I know that he became a sentient poke dex um
and he's just I just love I love that. Okay,
think about this. Probably probably on the set of Emma
Bill and he played Pokemon Go. Oh yeah, definitely, because

(22:12):
he would have been into it by the Yeah. Anyways,
when he said mewtwo, he just it's because he said
it like a theater actor, and you just never expect
to hear someone say it that way. Um, anyways, where
are we? Um? Oh? Oh? Who would you kiss? Mister
Elton Josh O'Connor. He's also in the Crown. He also

(22:35):
plays a fucking He plays young Prince Charles, you know,
another famously losery guy. But guess what he's got. He's
got a head shape that I like, and he's having Also,
I think he's very funny, and he's having such a
I think a good time in this movie being the

(22:56):
most annoying man to ever live. Oh. Yes, in no sense,
I don't. I didn't understand that joke. I'll say it.
That joke was in the trailer and I was like,
what's the joke. It's just Bill Nickey repeating something. No,
he mispronounces it. And then Bill Nile's like, no, it's
in a sense he said, mew two. Okay. So those

(23:25):
are some of the main characters. We also meet mister Knightley,
mister Kiera Knightley. Also, I don't know who that actor is,
but I kept thinking referring to him in my head
as slightly less hot Heath Ledger. Oh interesting, you know
who I think is mister Knightley. And the Gwyneth Paltrow

(23:45):
one is ermray Er You will Own McGregor? Were You?
Is Nightly? In that one? Which is? I get it?
This guy's name, what is his deal? His name is
Johnny Flynn. His Wikipedia picture is weird. It looks like
it was taken on a fucking point and sheet fifteen
years ago. Well, I guess I don't have much to say.

(24:09):
He was definitely hot, but I you know, he was
too conventionally hot to hold my attention. I want I
want a mister Elton. I want to Bill Nile saying
me two, give me something interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
So mister Knightley visits Emma and her father. Okay, so
what is the relationship between Emma and mister Knightley. In

(24:32):
the book, they're like brother and sister in law because
Emma's sister is married to mister Knightley's brother Emma's I
think that that's the case in the movie too. It's
confusing because I keep saying we're siblings, but it's because
Emma's sister married mister Knightley's brother. So they're in loss
no Blood. I wasn't sure if it was the same

(24:53):
thing as it was in Clueless, where they were former
step siblings no, which I always found really weird. I
think it's weirdly less weird in the book from the
eighteen hundreds than it is Clueless. I think I kind
of forgot yeah that there. It was like a weird
like step sibling porn line. They're definitely yeah, no, they're
they're in law and they're brother and sister in law. Okay, yeah,

(25:17):
that's never made very clear in this movie, right either way,
mister Knightley and Emma have a like flirty but like
teasing nagging type of banter. Yeah. Emma befriends a young
woman named Harriet Smith mia goth fun casting. Emma kind

(25:38):
of takes her on as a project and plans to
match make for her. Harriet fancies a young man named
mister Martin, but Emma doesn't think he's good or interesting
enough for Harriet. So Emma tries to encourage Harriet to
like mister Elton the vicar, right, he was kind of
funny and weird. Is like, so, Harriet's like a local student,

(26:02):
but the way that Autumn de Wilde chooses to style
the students is like they're in the Handmaid's Tale. So
you're like, well, I'm sure that that's like historically accurate,
but it's just as a modern viewer quite jarring to
be like, oh my god, where are they taking these women?
Should we help them? I know I had the same thought,
but they're just probably just like, oh, they're just you know,

(26:23):
young women who go to a boarding school look like
little Red riding Hood slash the women from The Handmaid's
Tale very weird. Who knows not us. We're not scholars. No,
we have one brain cell and we have to share it. Okay.
So Emma and Harriet get closer. They run into miss Bates,

(26:44):
who is like carrying on about her niece Jane Fairfax.
We see them hanging out with mister Knightley. They also
hang out with mister Elton, who loves a painting that
Emma did of Harriet and it seems like he really
likes Harriet. Then mister Martin proposes to Harriet via a letter,

(27:06):
which Harriet reluctantly rejects because of Emma's kind of subtle
persuasion to not accept his proposal. Every time someone says
persuasion in this movie, I'm like, that's another Jane Auston buck.
I know that. Oh that's funny because at least once
they say prejudice it is I know. I was like,

(27:27):
I remember that. And then they're also talking about sense
and maybe sensibility anyway, and they say they boy, did
they say I'm a lot? And they really say I'm
a a lot? But there's no mention of Mansfield Park.
Is that a Jane Austen novel or did I make
that up? Now? You nailed it? You nailed it. Wow. Yeah,

(27:50):
I am a scholar after all. Okay, Harriet rejects mister Martin,
which upsets mister Knightley, especially since it was he who
encouraged mister Martin to propose to Harriet. I think, right,
he it is it is and so that's like call
that more in the book two of like, mister Knightley's like, Emma,
you shouldn't meddle. I'm like, you literally just came from

(28:12):
mister Knightley's house to be like, you know who you
should marry. So he's like meddling with his boys too,
but whatever calls him out on that good point. Emma's
sister Isabella visits with her her husband, who is apparently brother. Yes,
I had no idea, and then their baby, and there's

(28:34):
also another small child. I think. A bunch of them
have dinner together, after which mister Elton professes his love
not for Harriet like Emma is expecting, but his love
for Emma herself, and she turns him down. She's like,

(28:55):
I don't want to get married. And he does not
take this rejection well he like a big baby and
like dashes out into the snow. He Oh my gosh,
he's dashing through this now. Fun fun, josh O Connory.
I like in this movie there's like a few times
when someone just starts like yelling and you're like, well

(29:17):
they like just where He's like, oh, by the carriage.
You're like shit. It really takes you by surprise because
it normally these rich people are so proper and not
yelling anyway. So Harriet is disappointed to learn that mister
Elton never liked her. Then Emma and Harriet spend some

(29:39):
time with Miss Bates again, the woman that Emma thinks
is super boring, as well as Miss bates niece Jane Fairfax,
who Emma is also not fond of and maybe even
jealous of, which is not as clear in the movie
as it seems to be in the book. Meanwhile, Harriet
bumps into mister Martin, hot farmer. She had rejected farmers Only.

(30:06):
That's that's Harriet, until Emma starts meddling she's on farmers Only,
and then Emma's like, no, you gotta get on Jane Austin.
Ye yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah, we've heard of a thing
or two. So that interaction is super awkward and it's
clear that they are still in love with each other,

(30:26):
but they don't do anything about it. And then Emma
finally meets the elusive Frank Churchill. They make eyes at
each other, it seems they like each other. And also
one of the things that I think that this movie
in this book do very well is that's like I
feel like you don't see it very often executed effortlessly,
Like this is like seeing two characters that bring out

(30:48):
the worst in each other. And that is so Frank
and Emma where like separately they're like like they still
kind of suck both as a Frank sucks worst, but
like they both kind of suck his individuals. But when
you bring them together, you're like, these two cannot hang
out together. They're going to like hurt someone's feelings. And
then they do, and then they do. Yeah, hate them,

(31:11):
hate them, cancel the friendship. Right Then there's a new
lady in town. She is the new wife of mister Elton.
Emma also does not like her. We will come to
find out that Emma does not like most of the
women she encounters. Then Frank Churchill's father, mister Weston throws

(31:33):
a ball in Frank's honor, Emma dances what I thought?
I was like, he does what? Sorry you meant like?
I was like, up, he doesn't. I don't see him
throw a single baseball. Okay, he does not throw any
poke balls Phil Knight, which is which is a which
is a shame, because I bet Bill Knight he has

(31:55):
five hundred at his damn house. I would love what
if Phil Knight has a poke ball room and that's
where I keeps all his Pokemon. So too. We should
cover Detective Pikachu on the podcast. Literally, let's cover I mean,
I don't know what we really have to Is there

(32:15):
anything to Actually, there are a couple things to say, okay,
and I will say them when we cover it. Maybe
for my birthday this year, maybe I'll do Detective May
and then we'll do Detective Pikachu and another detective movie
because every movie is about cops. Yeah, anyway, or we

(32:39):
could find uh, well, I guess oh I had this,
Oh God, I had this thought the other day. And
then do you ever have a thought that you're like,
I probably don't even want to know the answer, and
I don't need to go there right now. And so
in my own for my own protection mentally, I don't
want to know the answer to the question. Yeah, my

(33:00):
question was, is Nancy Drew a cop corrob like? Is she?
Nancy Drew works independently? But I don't remember. I don't remember.
I feel like she probably then reported to the cops.
I don't remember either. And I've read so many Nancy
Drew books. She worked independent twenty five years ago? Uh,

(33:26):
she like she worked independently, But when she solved the mystery,
would she tell the cops? I don't remember. Same with
the same with the mystery team or the mystery mission
that all those cartoons that got in that car, the
Scooby Doos, the Scoobies, what were they? God, I can't
remember a damn thing today. The Scooby did, the Scoobies

(33:47):
the coalue coalued, that's the word I'm working it. Oh,
did the Scoobies collued? With? There was there in a
situation there? You know what, I guess we're just going
to have to cover scoob No Scoobs or two thousand
and two Scooby Doo. We should cover two thousand and
two Scooby Doos. I watched I watched Scoob at a

(34:09):
low point in my life, and it was stinky, stinky, stinky.
Not no, no Lillard, right, no Lillard. If it doesn't
have Lillard in it, I don't care. Trewin Lillard got
so he got so sad when they recast him. He
because no one told him. And then they're like, Will

(34:30):
Fourte voices Shaggy in this one, and I love like
Will forty is the best, but my love of Will
Forte is outweighed by my discomfort of the idea of
Matthew Lillard like having a bad day. So how much
do I love Will Fourte? I don't know, I really
love him. Wow. Enough talking about random white guys in
their forties. Okay, So Frank Churchill's father throws a ball,

(34:58):
the dancing kind, not the pokemon kind, and at the ball,
Emma dances with Frank because they're you know, canoodling or whatever.
But Harriet has no one to dance with, so mister
Knightley asks her to dance, which Emma thinks is very
kind and Harriet thinks is very kind. And then Emma

(35:21):
and mister Knightley says some nice things to each other
and then they dance together and we're like, oh, what's happened?
This is another thing I like that the movie does
that the book doesn't. The book kind of plays out
more like a detective novel and like who loves who
you don't know that you can tell on like a
reread that Nightly clearly likes Emma the whole time, but

(35:43):
Emma has no idea how she likes mister Knightley until
like very late in the book. And something that I
learned about Jane Austen by reading these books and literally
following along with the spark notes to make sure that
I was listening correctly, is that, like she has this
bizarre tendency that I don't even really like. But in

(36:05):
terms of like adaptation, it opens up a lot of
creative license for writers or like screenwriters. But like the
most important moments in the book, she will like summarize
instead of writing dialogue for characters where it'll be like
like that whole like mister Darcy, like you've bewitchbe body
and soul, like that's not in the book. In the book,
it's like mister Darcy professed his love ardently and Elizabeth

(36:29):
finally reciprocated, like it's she doesn't say what they're saying.
Show don't tell Jane Austen, geez, have you never taken
a screenwriting class? Yeah? Why didn't? Literally, And that's so
she actually was a bad feminist. She canceled. But anyways,
because she writes like that, it opens it up for

(36:51):
a screenwriter to do kind of whatever they want. But
but I just thought it was funny how that plays
out with Emma realizing that she loves mister Knightley is
when Harriet is like, yeah, no, I love mister Knightley.
I don't feel a damn thing for Frank. Frank kind
of sucks, which also, like Emma didn't even seem to
understand Harriet knows that Frank sucks. She's like, no, I

(37:11):
love mister Knightley. He's awesome, he's cool. And there's a
single line that's like Emma realized suddenly that mister Knightley
could marry no one but herself, and like that's how
you're told that she loves him, Like that's how she
realizes it. And then she sends Harriet to the dentist
for a month. I'm just like, oh my god, I
don't know how long the dentist took back then, but

(37:34):
not a month. Not a month. I didn't even know
there wered dentists back then. So that's where I'm a
stick burn. I actually I wouldn't enough, Like I don't know,
but she got sent away to the dentist long enough
that she got engaged. Like that's too long to be
at the dentist. Oh yeah, weird. Okay, So Emma and

(37:57):
mister Knightley's relationship is evolving, much like how a Pokemon evolves. Oh,
she's going Charmander to what's the middle one? Was the
middle one? Oh? I don't know enough about it yet.
This is my first Pokemon game. She goes Charming. Okay,
well I'm gonna skip the middle. Then she's there's that
shot of him touching her waist where she goes Charmander

(38:19):
to Charizard like that. She's like, you're like, oh uh oh,
like it's a good I got. I mean, when there's
a horny a good horny moment in a period piece,
it's exciting, it's nice. Oh a touch of the waist
full Charizard Like, That's that's how I'm gonna that's what
I'm gonna call boner moments now full ars it hits.

(38:45):
Yeah it works. I thank god Bill Ni was in
Detective Pikachu, or we wouldn't be on this gorgeous train
of thought. Well, it's also thanks to me playing eight
billion hours. It's true Pokemon Arcius right, they're now a
fish billable hours. Mew chew, mw chew O so funny.

(39:07):
So after the ball, mister Knightley runs all the way
to Emma's estate, presumably to profess his love for her,
but before he can, Frank Churchill shows up carrying Harriet,
who is injured. Harriet tells Emma that she's in love again,
and Emma assumes Harriet means she's in love with Frank,

(39:29):
and Emma promises not to interfere this time like she's
done in the past. Then, mister Knightley invites several people
to his estate for an afternoon, during which Emma lets
it slip that she thinks Miss Bates is very boring
to her face to Miss s Bates's face horrible. Mis

(39:49):
Bates is extremely hurt by this. She all but like
burst shit like evil, so evil, and mister Knightley is
also taken aback by Emma's cruelness and confronts Emma about it,
and she feels awful. Then Emma learns that Frank Churchill

(40:12):
is engaged to Jane Fairfax and secretly has been for
quite some time. So Emma feels horrible on Harriet's behalf
because she knows that Harriet is in love with Frank.
But then Harriet is like, no, Frank isn't who I'm
in love with. I love mister Knightley, which like started

(40:32):
when he asked Harriet to dance at the ball when
no one else would dance with her. But then Harriet
realizes that Emma also loves mister Knightley, which drives a
wedge between them. So when mister Knightley professes his love
for Emma and proposes to her, She's like, well, we
can't do anything about it because Harriet loves you and

(40:55):
I don't want to hurt her anymore. And he's like, okay,
well I have to go convince mister Martin to propose
to Harriet again, and Emma's like, no, I have to
be the one to do it. I have to display
character growth because the book doesn't do that. Yeah, yeah,
I will say the addition of Emma's nosebleed makes the

(41:16):
movie The two Emma's nosebleed and Bill and I he
hopping down the stairs makes it a must watch for me,
warts and all. It makes it a must watch. Yes,
So Emma goes and does this to convince mister Martin
to propose to Harriet. It works, Harriet accepts his proposal.

(41:38):
So now Emma and mister Knightley are free to be
with each other. So they cannoodle, they kiss, and then
the movie ends with them getting married. The end slurpp. Okay,
let's take another quick break and then we will come
right back to discuss, and we're back, okay. So I'm

(42:06):
gonna be talking about the book and movie back and
forth throughout this episode, because boy, is this a log
book and it's got to be worth it for me, okay, please,
by all means. So, the main difference, and we talked
about this in the Pride and Prejudice episode two, where
it's like there's a lot of trimming out excess characters,
storylines that are just going on forever, stuff like that,

(42:30):
which makes sense. But the big change at the end
is in Emma period in twenty twenty, Emma has to
make things right with Harriet because she has like fucked
up Harriet's life under the guise of like, I'm such
a good person. And then it turns out that if

(42:50):
she had just left Harriet alone, Harriet would have made
the right decision on her own months ago and would
have gone through much less emotional distress and gas lighting
and all the kind of just being fucked around by
weird rich people. Right, and so in the movie, I
think it's really smart that Emma has to like atone
for that. It still is pretty abrupt, but at least

(43:11):
they have her, you know, she has to say I'm sorry,
She has to go and apologize for being an asshole.
In the book, that is not what happens in the book.
When Nightly proposes to Emma, she says yes right away,
and then she says, yes, but let's not tell Harriet

(43:35):
what she's so mean. In the book she says she's like,
absolutely yes, love you so much, my king, but don't
tell Harriet because whoopsie daisies she's in love with you.
And Nightly is like, oh yeah, let's not tell her.
And then Emma sends Harriet away. Emma is like, Harriet,
don't you have to go to the dentist. You should

(43:56):
go to my sister's house in London, like, get the
fuck out of here. She disappears Harriet so that she
can tell her society, like I'm engaged to mister Knightley,
but don't tell Harriet yet. She's going to be so
pissed off at me, Like she feels guilty about it.
It's not completely evil, but like she sends Harriet away,
and then you know, in the movie Emma, she gets

(44:19):
a noseblade, which is so funny. She gets she gets
a noseblade, and she's like, I want to marry you,
but I have to make some things right first, which
it totally makes more sense for the character demonstrating growth.
And then she has to go, you know, tail between
her legs. She has to go to mister Martin and
say I fucked up. I meddled too much. You and

(44:41):
Harriet clearly belong together and really care about each other,
and like make it right. She does not do that
in the book either, So she sends Harriet away, and
then just kind of while Harriet's away, she runs into
mister Martin and is like, hey, do you still love me?
And he's like yes, and then they get married and
Emma doesn't find out for like where Emma goes to

(45:03):
the wedding in the end, but like it just all happens,
Like Emma doesn't have to do anything. She's like rewarded
for sending Harry it away because if she hadn't sent
Harry it away, then how would she have gotten back
in touch with mister Martin or whatever? Like it sucks.
And then at the very end of the book, in
the last like what I find so bizarre about Emma

(45:27):
And again it's I'm not I'm nowhere near Jane Austen,
like I don't know even like a fishy, and like
I'm sure we have listeners who have a better understanding
of this than I do. But I just found it
so bizarre that, like in this book versus Pride and Prejudice,
it's a lot of like Jane Austen reinforcing the class

(45:49):
status quo. By the end of the book, everyone marries
within their class, and that was the right and morally upright,
like is like socially and morally correct that everyone remained
within their class, whereas in Pride and Prejudice that is
not the case that that novel pushes against it. It's
interesting because now that we know that, like Jane Austen

(46:10):
had a lot of complicated feelings on class and definitely
some class resentment that comes through in her workmen then
other times it's like she's kind of reinforcing a status quo.
We're not scholars, we don't know, but like, I just
think it's so interesting that, like, because it does feel
true to like born into wealth kind of richness. That

(46:34):
it's like all of her problems are extremely temporary, and
that is like how it plays out in real life
very often. But it's so frustrating to see it, like
like it's just Ana Taylor Joys, like, oh I was
being such an asshole, blah blah blah, and then mister
Knightley runs up. He's like I love you, and you're like, oh, well,

(46:55):
I guess it all worked out. Yeah. I feel like
Emma comments on gender pretty effectively, but I find the
way it deals with class weird because at the end
of the book, I think the movie does it better.
I like the things that the movie does. But in
the book, at the end, Emma and Harriet do meet
up one more time. She finds out that Harriet's father

(47:17):
was like a tradesman in bloody Bloo England. And instead
of saying like I'm sorry, I love you, you're you
and mister Martin are welcome at Wallcorn or whatever her
house is called any time in the book, she says okay,
well bye, and then in like whatever the narration, Jane

(47:40):
Austen basically says, like Emma and Harriet quickly fell out
of touch because it would have been socially improper for
Emma to hang out with a farmer's wife. That would
have sucked, and like their friendship ends like they're just
like within a few months, Emma and Harriet didn't talk
anymore and that was the correct thing to happen, because
you know, you can't catch Emma dead like hanging out

(48:03):
with a farmer's wife and the end. And so there's
a lot of there have been some schoolers who argue
that in the book Emma is both like limited in
a weird it almost kind of reminds me of like
Belle from Beauty and the Beast, where she has this
dream of like living and doing all these things she

(48:27):
wants much more than this provincial life. Perhaps yeah, and
then she ends up moving four feet from where she
came from, So why even sing that song if you're
going to end up getting her married four feet from
where she lived, she literally still lives in the province,
So why did that happen? And it's not that Emma

(48:48):
just like Emma is like set on being with her
father and like that is I mean, there's gender stuff
in there, but like she wants to stay with her dad.
But it just seems like the argument is, like, Emma,
doesn't you know the only thing that's really changed for
her at the end of the book is that she's
now like well married, So her like whole independent I

(49:10):
never want to get married thing is gone, and she
is still pretty aggressively classised. So there's a lot of
arguments for the book Emma to be like, well, she
learned a lot of lessons, but whether she actually applied
them to her life is pretty unclear. M it was bizarre. Well,

(49:32):
I find some things about the way the movie ends
not as bizarre as what you've described, Yeah, the book ending,
but still kind of bizarre, where like Emma owes several
different people apologies that she does not deliver, and yeah,
just I do. I was wondering about mister Knightley's like

(49:53):
I have to go find mister Martin and like get
him to propose to Harriet, and Emma is like, no,
I've got to do it. Yeah, neither of them do that.
They're like, um, yeah, send Harriet to the dentist, and
then Harriet's gone for a month. They're like, they said
Harriet to the dentist for a whole last month, because
they like, are too chicken shit to be honest. That said,

(50:17):
there are more apologies issued in the book than in
the movie, and I feel like there are some, like
particularly between Emma and Jane. Jane has a much, much,
much larger role in the book. Okay, wait, who is
oh Jane Fairfax? Jane Fairfax who ends up getting married
to Frank, which I'm just like, fuck, Frank can't stay Frank.

(50:39):
But at least at least the book, the book very
much knows that Frank sucks and that he is just
so like mister Knightley. They kind of do it in
the movie, but I thought it was funny in the
book where mister Knightley is constantly and I've always am
like mister Knightley is much older than them, which maybe
is not obvious in the movie that age gap is present.

(51:00):
Between the actors. The actor playing Knightly is thirteen years
older than Annya Taylor Joy, but in the book it's
very like Victorian and to the point where it gets
creepy where he's thirty six in the book, Emma's twenty
one and he's like, oh, I knew I was in
love you since you were thirteen, and you're like, that's
enough of that. Like so they make it out. I mean,

(51:21):
even though that age gap is more or less present
in the movie, I feel like there's no attention called
to it, and the actor in his thirties looks pretty young.
But yeah, then Nightly in the book they really like Jane.
Austen is very much pointing out like, oh, she's marrying
a father figure too, which also just doesn't seem very
I get why mister Knightley and Emma like each other,

(51:42):
but I didn't. I didn't love in the book how
they're just like, yeah, he knew, you know, she was
a child, that he was a man, and now she's
a woman and he's still a man. But sometimes the
point is, and I'm about to say something I like,
which is so I'm being all over the place. But
in the book, mister Knightley. He's like at least ten

(52:04):
years older than all of these, like people in their
early twenties and like late teens, and so sometimes he'll
talk about them the way that like a thirty something
person would talk about a twenty one year old's decisions.
And he's just like, Frank fucking sucks. I can't believe
that everything like works out so well for him, because
he's an asshole to everybody. Jane Fairfax is like way

(52:28):
too good for him. I don't know what she sees
in him. He's so lucky that he could treat her
so poorly and that she would still come like mister
Knightley does explicitly say all of that stuff, So I'm like, okay,
Jane Austen knows that this is not how you treat
a woman who is like intelligent and cool the way

(52:48):
that Jane Fairfax is, but it still has like it's
just so bizarre, like it's just a weird book. I mean,
I really, I don't know. Even though it's like aesthetically
like whatever and time period wise similar to Pride and Prejudice,
the stories are are very different. It's weird, and yet
there are some similarities. Who did you think needed apologies.

(53:11):
I thought that miss Bates was owed a major apology,
and even though Emma does bring her like a basket,
she doesn't really address what she did. Yeah and barely
says I'm sorry. She gets an apology in the book,
which is weird. The things scout that back. She apologizes
profusely in the book. I thought that was going to

(53:34):
happen in the movie, but instead she's like, here's a basket,
gotta go. And then miss miss Bates is just like
you are so you're too kind. You've always been so kind,
and it's like she just made you cry for saying
something really mean and insulting to you. Miss Bates, right,
and Nightly was right, like I'm glad. I am glad

(53:55):
that Nightly like gave her ship for that, and that's
like that is such a Jane like and I guess
maybe just like a Victorian male hero thing in general,
but it's like the fucking binary in this situation is
like guy with charisma, dirty liar, don't talk to him,
guy who's sort of mean to you. Now that's the
love of your life, like right, And then the other

(54:20):
major apology that I thought needed to happen that didn't
really is is Emma apologizing to and maybe maybe this
does happen better than I remember. But so Emma goes
and makes things right by approaching mister Martin and convincing
him to propose again to Harriet, which again I like.

(54:44):
When I saw that in the movie, I was like,
that's a very active thing for a female character to
do in a story written in this time period. It
seems a little too modern for that to be the case.
And it turns out, yes, correct, Yeah, they I boss
that part, But I do like, I do like that
she I think that's way more effective. Oh definitely, Yeah,

(55:06):
I don't. I don't. I like the change. I like
the adaptation change. I like, you know, in general, making
a female character more active and giving her more agency. Um. Okay,
So then when she does that, she meddles one last time,
but it works out and Harriet's and mister Martin's favor
where they get engaged. Either way, I feel like Emma

(55:28):
owes Harriet a much more significant apology for meddling in
Harriet's life and her you know, romantic situation, like her
romantic life, and Emma does not really give that apology,
So I feel like, you know, Emma needs to hold
herself accountable more than she does in general. But yeah,

(55:54):
that's just me. It's all weird, like if all in
the book, I thinks I was bummed about that didn't
make it from the book to the movie mostly, but
the movie clearly is choosing to focus more on the
Emma and Harriet friendship, Like there's a lot of emphasis

(56:15):
given to it, which I do like, and I think
it's like almost, well, I don't we'll get there. But
what I was bummed about was I think my favorite
character in the book is Jane, and Jane does not
get a lot of playtime in the movie, and I
wonder if she maybe did in the Gwyneth Paltrow one,
I'd be curious. But I really really really liked Jane

(56:37):
in the movie in the book because like you were
sort of saying, like the people in this movie, like
in the movie, everyone acts a little silly because it's
like whatever. Mister Woodhouse is a good example of an
upper class character who acts very silly. He's a hypochondriac.
He's very particular, like there's always a draft, there's always

(57:00):
a draft, and Bill nyghe is like king, like love him.
So it's not like only people of the lower classes
are written to be goofy, but it feels more point
like the way Miss bates Is character is written where
you do get that moment where it's like, no, of
course she knows when she's being insulted, yeah, and it

(57:21):
hurts her. So it's like it's not like those humanizing
moments aren't there. But I feel like between Harriet and
miss Bates, you're sort of like led to believe that,
like women of the lower class are silly and less
intelligent and like because I would guess, I mean, Tie
is the Harriet of Clueless, right, And yeah, I feel

(57:42):
like that is more effectively done and Tie gets more
humanizing moments than Harriet does, because I do feel like
it's like, ultimately Harriet is so and also she's a teenager,
like she's very impressionable. She's being thrown into this world.
But the I don't know, I don't know, maybe I
take it back because like missus Elton as a rich
lady and she's the goofiest woman alive, right, and Elton

(58:05):
himself is I mean, I guess they're like upper middle
class like climbered because they're always like my friend mister Knightley,
and mister Knightley's like rich enough and powerful enough to
be completely you know, and ask in the way that
mister Darcy is wearing. I feel like those are very
similar characters but just very different heroines, which is interesting
right to the point where I'm like, I don't really know,

(58:26):
Like I get why he but I'm just like, is
this a good match? Anyways? What was I gonna say? Oh,
but Jane Fairfax. So Jane Fairfax, I feel like, is
a really really good antidote to how Silly Harriet and
miss Bates are written, because she's from that same class
and what they get rid of in the movie. I think,
correct me if this is like referenced in a scene

(58:48):
in Passing, but that like, Jane's situation is that she
is firm like she's a Bates, She's of that class,
she's related to them, but when her parents died, she
ended up like going to stay with a rich friend
of her father's and so she grew up in the

(59:10):
upper class, but she's not of them, and so her
situation is that she can hang out in the upper class,
but ultimately, when she turns twenty one, she has to
become a governess or like she has to have a
working class job. Do they mention that in the movie,
because like the stakes are pretty high for her, right,

(59:30):
So it's like confusing the way she appears in the movie.
I found a little confusing because it's like in the book,
her stakes are very high in terms of like she's
grown up a certain way. It's clear that she doesn't
want to leave everyone she knows because her parents happened
to be middle class, but she's going to have to.
And then you know, she's secretly engaged to Frank for

(59:52):
most of the book, but Frank treats her so badly
that she's like at the end, she's like, fuck you,
I'm going to become a governess. And that is what
motivates him to Yeah, like all of it, Like, there's
a lot of Jane's stuff that goes on in the book.
She and Emma have a lot of scenes together in
the book that I really liked where Jane you get
moments of it in the movie. But like Emma is

(01:00:15):
jealous of Jane because Jane is just as whatever refined,
if not more so, is just as talented, if not
more so, than Emma and is from the middle class,
and so that's what bothers Emma about it, is like
Jane doesn't have a lot of the advantages that Emma
did of birth, but is kind of like better than

(01:00:35):
her in a lot of ways. And so Emma kind
of like weaponizes that insecurity about like how is Jane
so good at this, this and this, and kind of
flings it in her face and Jane responds, and like
there's this interesting tension between them, and by the end,
Emma grows a little bit and once she realizes like

(01:00:55):
Jane was in love with Frank and like Emma was
totally off about everything, she goes to Jane and gives
like a really sincere apology and is like, I wish
that we had been friends all of these years, but
we were pitted against each other when we were so young.
And also I was jealous of you, and like I'm sorry,
and I hope that you have a happy life marrying

(01:01:16):
this fucking jerk. But like it was just I thought
it was a very satisfying. Jane was my favorite, yeah,
because she just she did what she had to do,
but she did it with class and she didn't meddle,
and I just wish she was like ended up with
someone cooler than Frank, but she loved Frank. So I
guess sure, fine, Oh, I guess sure. Justice for Jane.

(01:01:40):
No no. Yeah. Also, there's too many Janes, because there's
Jane and Pride and prejudice too, and there's she Jane Austin.
There were like seven different names back then. I guess
it's an interesting adaptation because it's been I guess pretty
thoroughly debated. Whether Jane Austin even likes Emma based on
the way she written in the book and the fact

(01:02:01):
that she Some people view Emma the novel as like
a full on class satire because Emma learns all these
things about the world and still acts like a rich
person at the end of the day. And so like,
Emma gets everything she wants because of course she does,
she's fucking rich. Like, no matter how much you force
onto the like genteel class about the reality of the world,

(01:02:26):
things are still going to work out for them. And like,
so there is a way of looking at it from
the book of like, yeah, Emma sucks. The author knows that,
and like, to some extent, that's the point. But because
of how movies work, and are sold you can't really
do that, or you can, but like most adaptations choose

(01:02:49):
not to over like having Emma display learning, Like I
feel like this movie takes the I don't think this
is like unusual, but like this movie takes the route
of like she learns about class and successfully applies that
to how she lives her life, and she stands as
this like symbol that she does in the book as

(01:03:09):
well of like you can have the most privileged it's
possible for a woman to have in this time and
still be basically fucked, which is which is something that
I think is touched on more effectively in Pride and Prejudice. Right, Yeah,
so I don't know. I mean, I I don't like Emma,

(01:03:30):
but I like watching Emma, and I'm constantly frustrated by
like the lack of consequences she experiences. This movie has
to add consequences to get her to a place where
it seems like she's grown, and it still feels like
she kind of gets off easy for whatever. Right, she
doesn't grow or arc as much as I would want

(01:03:54):
to see a character grow. But also, you know, she
does come from extremely rich and privileged background, so like
kind of what do you expect from someone like that?
You kind of just like I would have to like
suspend my disbelief more that she does have a significant
arc and that she lets go of some of her

(01:04:15):
perhaps prides and prejudices the ha ha. And I think
it is more believable that she kind of stays a
pretty static character, right, I mean, if it is satire,
I mean the movie. I don't think the movie is satire.
The movie, I feel like definitely isn't satire. The book

(01:04:37):
arguably could be seen that way, but also we're not
talking about the button, but the movie I don't think.
I think the movie tries to kind of plays it
pretty straight. Yeah, and like adds in moments to give
Emma growth. And I thought it was like interesting. I
read some and watched some interviews with the director of
this movie, who I man, hope she's listening. She I'm like,

(01:04:58):
she's so fucking cool. After Autumn de Wilde, it was
her first feature, she directed, her first feature in her
late forties. She walks with a cane that has a
shot glass built into the cane, which she's just so
fucking cool, Like it's unbelievable. And she started as a

(01:05:18):
music video director. She's like of that pipeline, but unlike
many male music video directors who I feel like direct,
you know, like I'm thinking of like your David Fincher's,
your Spike Joneses, who direct a few successful music videos
and then are directing movies by the time they're in
their late twenties early thirties. She had to fight to
make not this movie specifically, but like to make a

(01:05:41):
movie of her own for decades because you know, misogyny
and what. Anyways, Sorry, we've ben talked about this on
the show before. Excuse me, and I don't have time
hang on, but she fucking rocks, Like all of her
interviews are like she's just she dresses. She just oh
you'll like this. She described her personal style as Oscar

(01:06:02):
Wilde meets Paddington Bear, and it totally tracks. She's just
she's so fun. Like she sort of made it her
mission statement of the movie to like create a very
beautiful movie, which like mission accomplished that I hear based
on all of the fucking costuming YouTubers I watch because
I'm a Door is a very period accurate nice because

(01:06:27):
all the all the costuming YouTubers they're like this is
eighteen o four and it should be eighteen o four
and a half, like whatever, But this one apparently like
the attention to details, like on point, it's beautiful. It
looks like a music video in a way that isn't
distracting whatever. But she said like, oh, I you know,
you have this flawed heroine in the form of Emma.

(01:06:47):
And I'm like that is true, but I and yet
I really like and this isn't even a criticism of
the movie or the book. I just am like, yeah,
I don't like Emma. Like I'm like not, I'm interested
in what happens to her, and I want her to
display growth, but I like, don't really, it's so obvious

(01:07:09):
that she's going to be fine, and then at the
end she's fine, right yeah, where it's like with Lizzie Bennett,
the stakes are relatively high, like she you know, and
it is like we talked about in the last episode,
where it's like, you know, the middle class is not
a death sentence, but in the society that they're in it,

(01:07:30):
you know, the misogyny was much more intense and there's
all this stuff, but Emma doesn't really It's made very
clear early on that even though Emma remaining single, there
is some discrimination against her, which you get in those
few moments of like well wives first, like single ladies
to the back, and Emma never wants to get married,
So this is how she'll be treated her whole life.

(01:07:51):
But it's made clear very early in the book and
I think in the movie too, that like, even though
this is an unconventional decision, her immediate support system fully
accepts it and accepts her and thinks she's amazing, and
she'll be able to do it without her quality of
life being sacrificed, right because, as we talked about in

(01:08:11):
the last episode, one of the reasons that so many
women were so concerned about, like, oh my god, I
have to get married, and I have to get married
right now, and it has to be to a man
who has a big income, because that was literally a
survival thing. More than the very tropy. Women just love
romance and they love getting married for the sake of

(01:08:34):
being married thing. So it's just like when Lizzie Bennett
refuses someone's hand, a rich person's hand, it's a way
bigger deal than when Emma refuses anyone because she's going
to be fine no matter what which just for me
makes it like her a like rich Girl learns a
lesson is just not a very compelling narrative to me.

(01:08:56):
Let me pronouncing the tia narrative, what a bitch, Sorry,
but it isn't like I just I don't know. And
again it's like, I'll be damned if I could tell
you why it works for me. And clue is maybe
I just like the outfits better. But like, yeah, rich
girl learns a lesson is just not interesting to me,
especially because it's like there, I just think, I don't know.

(01:09:20):
I'm just like Jane Fairfax is more like her story
is more interesting, Like I've in my mind, Emma is
a b character and Jane Fairfax's story, which is more
laired and more interesting, it has more to say about
class and gender and like how people interact with each other.
But I see what you mean. I don't think it's
the most compelling story ever told. Sure, which is my

(01:09:44):
standard for every movie. But if we do have to
watch movies about rich people, which many movies are, I'd
rather them learn and have an arc and see the
error of the ways. But the thing, I think what
Emma learns more than like I should be more empathetic

(01:10:08):
to people of a lower class than me. What she
learns more than that lesson is she just learns to
stop meddling in other people's lives. Right, So for sure,
if she learned something that had more to do with like, oh,
I should stop treating poor people like they're a little
project of mine and treat them like human beings, or

(01:10:31):
I should spread my wealth meaningfully or something like that,
I would find that way more compelling than her just
being like, oops, I played Matchmaker one too many times
or whatever. Right, And it's like hard because it's like
I know that. That's why this story is like light
and fluffy and fun. It is because it's like this

(01:10:53):
young woman is clearly like if I was, like Emma's
clearly projecting, like that's so much of the movie as
like I don't want to deal with my or maybe
it's clear in the book. I don't know, Like it
feels kind of clear that it's like Emma. Part of
the reason Emma metals and other people's lives is because
she is not able to see herself as the protagonist

(01:11:14):
of her own life, which is interesting, like she keeps
casting herself as like Judy Greer in her own life,
and it's like interesting choice because you're literally a millionaire,
And like, I wonder, I'm sure someone's done Emma's astrological chart,
because it's so like she does have this like superhuman

(01:11:34):
ability to like that I know, like people have, but
it's just not relatable to me at all. Of like,
she's able to see romantic issues very like objectively, and
she looks at romance in terms of class, which I think,
which is why I wish that I guess that that's
part of why I ultimately kind of walk away disappointed
that there's not more said about class, because she is

(01:11:56):
very obviously arranging people and doing this like puppetmaster thing
based on class, like the reason that she wants Harriet
like and and and then there's also this theme in
the book that is not touched on in the movie,
where it's like or she she says it about mister Martin.
I think that that's the most you get. At the
beginning of the movie, she talks about like, well, I

(01:12:18):
don't give a shit about mister Martin because he's not
poor enough for me to look like a hero if
I help him, right, He's not rich enough that he
can actually hang out with me, so why would I
give a shit about him? And she's basically like, the
middle class is useless to me, because right, and so
it's like she's she's an extremely classist character and that
is like cannon to the book and the movie and
like explicitly says like and she says this too, Harriet,

(01:12:41):
which makes it clear that Emma's like, yeah, I consider
you someone worth helping because because you're so poor, right,
you come from nothing, and you don't even know who
your parents are. But let's pretend like your father is
a gentleman. That's just what we'll say, right, And like,
so it's a game turn her like poor people are pawns,

(01:13:02):
and a game that she uses to elevate her own profile,
a game of chess. Netflix. I gave of my boyfriend chess. Netflix.
That's what a fun name, mewtwo. You two. I'm so tired? Okay,
so same oh oh, So, like Emma is like the

(01:13:26):
metaiest metaller that ever was, And part of it's because
she is like you know, like she says, I don't
want to get married, but then it turns out that
that's not actually the case. Find that happens whatever, But
she's she's matching according to class, like she wants Harriet
to class jump, like she wants Harriett to jump at

(01:13:47):
tax bracket. And that is why she keeps trying to
convince Harriet that she's in love with all of these men.
And Harriet is very young and very impressionable and kind
of out of her depth in many ways in this story,
and so she ends up like experiencing a lot of
emotional pain as I think, like a late high school

(01:14:08):
early college student, right, because this rich girl is like,
I want you to jump class you know, which, which
is in the context of this society, Like you could argue,
you know, Emma wants to secure Harriet a better future
than she would have if they hadn't met. Sure, However,
once mister Knightley comes into the picture, obviously that's not

(01:14:31):
the case because once she figures out like and this
is more explicit in the book, but like, once Emma
figures out that Harriet is in love with mister Knightley,
technically that is exactly what Emma was trying to do,
make a match for Harriet that was above her class
that Harriet felt good about. Right, But Emma's like no, no,
not no, that's actually he's mine, So you have to

(01:14:53):
go to the dentist like for a month, and then
she like possibly fucks her friend over permanently, and then
thankfully Harry it gets to marry the guy she wanted
to marry the whole time. And Emma she doesn't apologize
to I mean, she does apologize to Harriet in the book,
but then she never speaks to her again, so it's like, right,
what was the point I do? Like in the their

(01:15:14):
friendship in the movie I think is more effective, but
it's still just because of like the source material. It's
like it's just never going to be super satisfying because
Harriet is just so forgiving of Emma. Everyone is everyone
she loves Emma. It could be like effective commentary maybe

(01:15:35):
if it was like approached differently, but just like people's
tendency to give rich people so much leeway and like
forgive them for all of their you know, horrible misdeeds,
but the movie isn't really commenting on that. It's just
like presenting, well, the book isn't either, Like right, again,
a lot of the problems with the movies storyline are

(01:15:57):
part and parcel to what the like. I think that
the I do think the movie does the most I
can with the story without striking too far from the story.
Shout out to screenwriter Eleanor Katton, who was a novelist
who has more recently gone to screenwriting, which is fun.
Love that for her. I read what was the book

(01:16:19):
of hers? I read? I read, Oh, the Luminaries. It
was good anyways, but there's yeah, there's just like so
much like Emma Is I guess considered one of Jane
Austen's more conservative novels because it ultimately kind of ends
upholding upholding the status quo in most ways where viewed
from one side, it's like, oh, that's great that Harriet

(01:16:42):
married mister Martin because that was who she liked the
most the whole time, so like, that's her following her bliss.
But also Jane Austen made these people up, and she
made it that in every case everyone married from except
for the only couple that is like has class disparity
in the way that like dars See and Lizzie Bennett
do is Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill. That's the one

(01:17:04):
couple actually that is worth But the movie kind of
chooses not to doesn't really make it clear that that
that happens because of Jane Fairfax. Erasure right glosses over
what Jane Fairfax's situation is. I'm going to write one
of those horrible God, I'm so sick of this happening,

(01:17:24):
but I think it would be fun for Jane Fairfax,
you know, like when I feel like it like peeked
with like Wicked and like those Gregory mick Whatever's guys
books where he's like, remember this B character, Well, I
wrote a whole book about them having sex, And you're like,
I don't want I don't think I wanted that, but

(01:17:45):
they were all bestsellers in like the mid to late
two thousands. They're like, yeah, remember the like he wrote
a book about the step sisters. He wrote Wicked. They're
just like, yeah, I remember this B character. They they're
so funking horny, and you're just like, ah, okay, whatever,

(01:18:05):
I guess. A matron pointed out. Shout out to Abigail
pointed out on the comments of our Prime Prejudice episode
that an author named Janice Hadlow wrote a novel called
The Other Bennett's Sister to flesh out the character of
Mary Bennett. She was, so see that's the one acceptable answer.

(01:18:27):
So that's fine. Mary Bennett and Jane Fairfax are the
two side characters who are underdeveloped in the books and
adaptations that I want to write. Oh I want to
read that Mary Bennett book. Yeah. Oh, Also, someone tweeted
this at me. I don't know how we missed this,
you knoww we were like, oh, the actor who plays

(01:18:49):
Mary as the least famous of everyone. Apparently she was
married to Elon Musk twice. Twice they got married and
then divorced, and then married again and then divorced again.
So she was busy doing some probably fucked up stuff. Yeah,
so that I guess that's why she's not acting, because
she's she was. Look, you're we all on this planet

(01:19:16):
have one job, and it's still like not marry Elon
Musk and many people have um simply failed. As you
hear that Grimes is La who was married to him
right now, she did not marry him and then she
broke up with him, but she did have a baby
with him. Oh right, okay, okay, And that is unfortunately

(01:19:39):
way too much information that I knew. But I'm a
recovering Grimes fan. I really was. I was a huge
fan of hers in college and I was like, Wow,
she's so cool, and then you married Elon Musk. Disappointed.
Oh you know what, what what I should have said
instead of that actor who married Elon Musk twice, I
should have said mute two times. Oh anyway, go on,

(01:20:10):
Oh my goodness, Okay, I guess I'm sorry. I don't
know anyways, Jane Fairfax Rocks Emma is. Emma is fine,
but she's not the most interesting person in the story,
I don't think sure. The couple things that struck me
about her since I wasn't familiar with the book and

(01:20:30):
didn't know how this adaptation compared to the book. Speaking
strictly from watching the movie, standpoint, I found it interesting
that Emma Her relationship with women was noteworthy in that
she seems to hate almost every woman she encounters, with

(01:20:54):
the exception of Harriet. But that's also an interesting relationship
because MS sees Harriet and missus Weston right, yes, yes, yes, yeah,
oh right, okay, So Harriet MS sees more as a
project than a French person. Yeah, especially in the book

(01:21:14):
as you've described it, she was just going to be
like sorry, mister Knightley's mine. You have to go to
the dentist now. Right. In the movie, they do change that,
which humanizes EMA's character more. But even so, m spends
most of the movie not really treating Harriet as an
equal and being like, I'm the teacher. I teach you things,

(01:21:36):
and you have to do as I say, and if
you make choices that I don't like, then I'm not
gonna want to be your friend. So that's a peculiar
relationship with Missus Weston. Well, Missus Weston is like basically
her like surrogate mom. So that's right. I think why
that relationship goes away it is, I do. Yeah, if
with Emma there is this kind of strong, like she

(01:21:58):
has a bit of a guy's gal energy about her,
where she's much more forgiving and even like celebrates the
faults of the men around her and is very very
punitive and judgmental of other women around her. I feel
like again in the book and at the movie to
an extent, that's contextualized a little better, where you know, like,

(01:22:20):
part of why Lizzie Bennett is amazing is because there's
constantly this pressure on her to dislike other women and
She's like, no, fuck you. This is an important relationship
to be and that's why Lizzie Bennett's the best. Emma
on the other hand, I feel like experience is that
same pressure of like we live in a small community,
everyone's in competition with each other, blah blah blah, and

(01:22:40):
she gives into that I feel like in a major way,
in a way that probably wasn't unusual for that time
and still happens now, right, But yeah, Emma doesn't really
push back on that until at the end of the
book where she issues a series of apologies and makes
things right, which like sort of happens in the movie.
I don't know. I wish that had happened more in
a movie, because if the movie is asking us to

(01:23:03):
be endeared and empathetic toward Emma, yeah, she needs to
grow more and she needs to apologize because the way
I was seeing it, she starts out hating a lot
of the women around her, but then sees the error
in her ways, Like especially after after she's cruel to
Miss Bates, she offers her a basket and I guess

(01:23:26):
that's an apology, but she like kind of she comes
around on Miss Bates. She doesn't really come around on
Jane Fairfax in the movie. I would have liked to
see more of Emma acknowledging that she was being very
petty and jealous and classics toward Jane, but that we
don't really see that in the movie, which is weird

(01:23:47):
because I feel like it would help the movie, and
it definitely happens right right with Harriet. Obviously, that's a
major change in this adaptation, and I think for the
better because it again does make Emma more empathetic and
more active. So I'm pro that choice. But I think

(01:24:09):
a more effective film overall and like adaptation would have
shown Emma being prejudice toward the women around her at
the beginning, but then reconciling with them and like growing
and having those relationships become more positive by the end

(01:24:29):
fresh versus like in the beginning, she's favoring a lot
of the men around her and like thinking they're awesome.
She thinks mister Elton is awesome at first. She thinks
Frank Churchill is awesome before she has ever even met him,
you know. She thinks all these men are awesome. And
this is I think done pretty effectively in the movie,
where she as she gets to know them, realizes their

(01:24:51):
actually way worse than she thought, so basically like the
arc for Emma should have been, like she starts out
as a very bad, very poor judge of character, and
then by the end she becomes a way better judge
of character. And maybe that's and which is like also
kind of what priend prejudice it is about, but it's
just better. It's better. I mean, I know that not

(01:25:15):
everyone can be Lizzie Bennett, but I'm just like, damn Emma,
Lizzie Bennett, no contest, honey, I would so be friends
with Elizabeth Bennett. I don't want to be friends with
Emma Woodhouse, No, I wish her no ill, But I
do want to be friends with Jane. And I want
to talk Jane into divorcing Frank and eloping with me

(01:25:36):
because she's awesome. But also it's I don't know in
this world Jane ending up with Frank is It's funny
because it's like I kind of in some ways, I
kind of like and again I'm maybe talking more about
the book here, but like I kind of like mister
Knightley more than I like Emma, which feels like a betrayal.
But like mister Knightley, I see what you mean. Like

(01:25:56):
mister Knightley, it has the same amount. I mean, he
has more privilege than Emma because he's a man, right,
so like inherently, but personality wise, mister Knightley is way
more willing, probably also because he's older, way more willing
to be like you can't treat people like that or
like in the book especially he goes on some you know,
too long tears, but like he's he's I think more

(01:26:20):
often than Emma presents the morally correct standpoint towards a
character where he's very quick to be like Frank is
a bullshit artist, like something isn't quite right there. He's
like courting you, but it's weird, like he catches on
to that very quickly. He also catches on quick to
like Emma, why are you being mean to Jane? She's

(01:26:41):
like a perfectly nice person and I think you're maybe
a little bit jealous of her. And Emma's like no,
which is which is pointed coming from a man, because
it's like what does he know? But also he's like
correct in that situation. And then he also is the
person that's like, you can't treat miss bates like that,
and he lays out a pretty like I thought, like
and this is in the book too, but like a

(01:27:01):
pretty gender and class aware argument as to why he's like,
not only does it mean but you need to keep
in mind that she does not have the same amount
of privilege that you have, right, and because of how
our society is structured, her situation is going to get
worse with time, So like, how dare you talk to
her that way? Right, which is also like, well, nightly,

(01:27:21):
you could always help her out, You're a fucking bajillionaire.
But just the fact that he sees and understands gender
and class issues better than Emma in some ways, and
then obviously there's other other ways that Emma like Emma
seems hyper aware of the fact that she will be
treated differently her whole life if she never gets married,
and she's already said like, I'm fine with that. It sucks,

(01:27:42):
but I'm fine with that, which is I think one
of the only points that that character has to make
that was interesting to me. I don't know, I guess
I'm anti. I just don't like whatever, Like you don't
have to like her, I don't In many cases, like
she's supposed to be hard to like, and it works.
I found it hard to like her, right yeah, Because

(01:28:06):
it's also mister Knightley who sees through Frank Churchill right
away too, and it's like this guy sucks. How do
you not notice this? And Emma's like, no, he's awesome.
And in the book, Emma forgives Frank. Frank sends her
this long letter and he's like, hey, sorry, I was
like aggressively flirting with you all that time. I assumed

(01:28:27):
that you knew that I wasn't serious about it, and
which in the book is true. So she's like, oh, yeah,
I do. But it's like, imagine if she didn't know
how evil that is. And then he's like, yeah, it
was really mean of me to be like aggressive, like
because he does it once in the movie, he does
it all the time. In the book, he's constantly calling
Jane weird, looking like to throw everyone off his scent

(01:28:49):
that he secretly engaged to her. He's like, Jane Fairfax,
what a weirdo? Hate her, can't stand her, and like
eggs Emma on to do the same, and then she
forgives him, and I'm just like, Jane, baby, let's get
out of here, like I don't know, it's so bizarre,
like Frank sucks and Nightly Nightly. Then oh so in

(01:29:10):
the book, Emma reads the letter and she's like, oh, well,
you know, Frank, you know, he made a lot of mistakes,
but I'm glad he apologized, which is true. Men don't
usually apologize for anything in fiction or real life. So
there you go, that's good. You know, he did more
than most people would, but it's still not enough because
he did a lot of bad stuff. And Nightly reads

(01:29:31):
the letter after her, and it's like, all right, well,
I guess it's good that he apologized, but like, I
still think Jane is way too good for him and
I don't want to hang out with him. And I
was like, yeah, mister Knightley, Well, the other big thing
for me with this movie is the romance between Emma

(01:29:53):
and mister Knightley. I mean, we've already touched on some
of this stuff, but you know, it starts out not
unlike the way that like the Lizzie Bennett and Darcy
relationships starts out where they are, you know, antagonistic toward
each other. With Emma and Nightly, it's a little more

(01:30:13):
like teasy and like they're acquainted already, so they have
like a rapport that they've had for many years. Yeah,
it's cute. It's cute. And what I find maybe this
is maybe this is just me, but if I like someone,

(01:30:33):
I'm very acutely aware that I like them. I've never
experienced the thing that seems to happen a lot in
movies where someone realizes that they've been in love with
someone for months or years. Has this Does this happen
to other people? Where they're like, they're just completely clueless
that they're in love with someone, and one day the

(01:30:55):
right clueless, one day a light bulb goes off and
they're like, wait a minute, I've been in love with
this person the whole time. Is that a thing? I
don't know? I mean, I I don't think like in
this way. I think I find that more. I think
that that happens more often than enemies to lovers, Like
I do think that it's like I know, I mean,

(01:31:17):
I guess you could argue that that's sort of what
happened with my parents. They were friends for like I mean,
granted they're extremely divorced, but my parents were like friends
for seven years and then they started dating. But were
they like secretly in love with each other that whole
time and then they find they like suddenly realized it
or is it? Probably not, Caitlin, But do I think

(01:31:41):
that Nightly has had a thing for Emma forever? Which
gets problematic because she was a kid for a lot
of that. But I don't know. I do think that
they're like, I don't think it happens as often as
it happens in books, but I do think that, like
there's plenty of examples in real life of people being
friends for a long time and then falling in love. Well, yeah,
that I think that's definite thing. But I'm saying, not

(01:32:01):
like realizing I've loved you the whole time. I don't
understand how that would right. Yeah, that sounds made out.
I mean again, maybe maybe there are people out there
that that happened, but I don't. I'm just like, I
don't know. Maybe I'm just so aware of my feelings
brag that I just know if I love someone, I
don't know. I anyway, I guess that that well, I know,

(01:32:23):
you know what, I think it happens, I do, okay,
because I was just like, wait, I think that that
that's actually kind of what happens in my first major relationship.
I well, I the point I was going to try
to make was because I like realistic representations of romance
in media because it so rarely happens. Yeah, so many
romantic movies just like make up a thing that doesn't

(01:32:43):
seem to happen ever in real life, and that's like
the crux of the relationship, and then convinces people that
that's how stuff is going to go in their life
and that it doesn't and then they're just like well,
and then they're thirty and then they're like, wait a second,
I guess that wasn't a thing, right, So I was
just curious, So sound off in the comments. Also, matrons,
if if it's happened to you where you've loved someone

(01:33:06):
for a long time but it took you a very
long time to realize it and you had no idea
about your feelings, because if that is a thing, then
I will I will hold my tongue. I think it
does happen, but not as often as it does in ficture.
That's my that's my I don't know, sorry, but that's

(01:33:27):
my two little pet. That's should we just end the episode,
I don't know things are going off the rails. I
don't think I have anything else to say. Honestly, I
will say that in the comments of our Patreon someone
mentioned that Miss Bates and Emma, or their opinion was

(01:33:49):
it Miss Bates and Emma was as close to um
Jane Austen's financial situation, which was that she like had
some money as a young person, but then when certain
relatives die, she was dependent and it was single because
her income from writing wasn't significant enough to like elevate
her to like Emma's status. So God, just more more grist,

(01:34:13):
little to chew on. Yeah, do you ever? Do you
have anything else here? Just one last really quick thing.
This is something we you talked about in the ever
After episode. Yes, okay, I is another movie that paints
romani people as dangerous thieves. It's not as egregious in
this movie as it is and ever After I would argue,
but there's a definite mention of it. And that's something

(01:34:36):
that's in the book that I was shocked made it
to the movie. Shocked, Yeah, because this movie was made
two years ago and everyone involved should have known better,
because it's like this movie does take creative license with
a lot of plot points. Why not that one peepee
poop poo bad job. Yes, Other than that, yeah, I think, um,

(01:34:59):
I guess. My parting word. My parting thoughts are that
this adaptation could have lent itself to a character in
Emma that I would be more empathetic toward, had she
demonstrated more growth by the end, a better judge of
character by the end, gotten rid of her prides and

(01:35:20):
prejudices by the end, especially because so many of the
people that she was quick to judge or mistreat our
other women, And had Emma not ended up such a classist,
anti woman character, which is so hard because it's like

(01:35:42):
I don't think that Emma's like anti woman per se,
but like it's just like it's a very weird, complicated
thing that the way that this story has been adapted
makes it hard to be on Emma's side as much
as the movie would like you to be. I think
right in the book, I feel like my I forget
what other but I'm like, I find it very easy

(01:36:05):
to believe that the book has elements of satire to it,
of like rich people are going to be rich people,
and like, look at all these. I don't know. This
one is kind of tough because I always want to
be resistant towards like why doesn't this movie that takes
place in eighteen twelve have the morals of today. It's like, well,
we know why, right, But then also why choose to
adapt something from back then in the twenty twenties and

(01:36:30):
not really say anything or do anything about it. I
felt that way with like, well, I think that she tried,
Like I that's willy come to the But I do
think that they tried. I think they changed elements and
they tried to put you more in the friendship with
Emma and Harriet. And they try and they did, like
I mean, and they were successful in putting you more
in Emma and Harriet's friendship and demonstrating more personal growth

(01:36:54):
on Emma's part than takes place in the book. I
just think it gets a little dissonant, and it gets
into what was Jane Austen's intent with this character, and
does the movie telegraph that same intent? So I think
it's just like it's adaptation wise. For me, it's a
little messy because I don't think my read of the
book was that you're not really supposed to be like Wahoo,
Emma got everything she wanted. It's more like and obviously

(01:37:16):
Emma got everything she wanted, where the movie wants you
to be more like Wallhoo, Emma got everything she wanted.
And it's just hard when someone is that privileged and
most of her growth happens through minor inconveniences that affect
other people more than herself, it's hard to root for her,
and it's hard to be like Wall who she got
what she wanted because you're told in the opening line

(01:37:36):
she's clever, handsome, and rich. She gets what she wants, right,
So why am I supposed to be cheering at the
end when she gets what she wants? So I just
I don't know. I've it's weird, and it's like I
want to be careful to not like Project twenty twenty
two morals onto this story and in the same way

(01:37:56):
or like, but Jane Austen has done a better like
we just covered a story where Jane Austen did, I think,
like a much more effective job of discussing these same
topics that feel weird in this adaptation. Right, it's just weird.
I don't know. My opinion is it's fucking weird. Who knows.

(01:38:17):
I mean, honestly, I have had such a good time
prepping for the It's not to brag, but it's taken
way longer than it usually does when you're reading a
whole book and then watching a movie a billion times.
But I feel really something revisiting Jane Austen's work and
like having to engage with a period piece like this critically,

(01:38:38):
because it is challenging to be like, Okay, you know
we're an intersectional feminist podcast, but what does that mean
with this work, and like, how can we analyze something
without coming to the table with a completely unreasonable expectation,
and like how does adaptation to I don't know. It's
been a fun little brain puzzle that everyone's going to

(01:38:58):
view differently, but I've enjoyed it. I don't know, But
I mean Pride and Prejudice way fucking better. And I
don't think that that's the fault of the filmmakers of
this movie. This movie is gorgeous. All the performances are
well done. The only thing that I would really criticize
about this movie that is the treatment of Romani people.

(01:39:19):
And also just like I mean, scaling back Jane, I
didn't love and removing more effective apologies that were in
the book but were left out in the movie. I
thought was bizarre. But but the third act changes, even
though some of them, like you were saying, were like
a little too modern, even so I liked the third

(01:39:41):
act changes they made. I thought it was like a cool.
It kind of reminded me of another White Girl reboot
we saw recently with Little Women, where Gredick Gerwick was
doing all sorts of funery with the third act of
that movie, and it worked out in this really fun,
cool way that had something to say. This one maybe
didn't have quite as much to say, but I thought
it was like a cool I don't know, I'm happy

(01:40:03):
it exists. I would rather see more adaptations of Pride
and Prejudice than of Emma. And also, you know, I don't,
I don't know. I mean, I don't. I don't even
know that I necessarily feel like no more Jane Austen adaptations.
I think it's kind of cool that there are these
properties that get a generational reboot. It's kind of like
Shakespeare in that way, like Where and Autumn. De Wilde

(01:40:26):
says that in an interview where the first question an
interviewer asked her, was like, so why in Emma reboot?
Why now? And she's like, no, I've literally never heard
that asked of a Shakespeare reboots. So I don't know
how to answer that question, right, So I don't. I
don't know. It's it's all, it's all weird. Should we

(01:40:47):
cover Pride and prejudice and zombies? No? It sucks. I
never saw it sucks. It's so boring. But Joel Kim,
Booster and Boie Yang are in that Pride and Prejudice
reaming called Fire Island that comes out next year. Oh,
I didn't realize that was I had no idea see it.
So it's like this is like these are fun stories

(01:41:10):
to reimagine and readapt and like still like Clueless is
the most fun I think in like insightful ly adapted
version of Emma. But I liked this movie. I thought
that they did cool stuff and it like it's so
beautiful it is. I liked it. It It passes the Bechdel test.
M it does, sure does. What would you rate it

(01:41:32):
on our nimble scale? Because I don't know. I think
I'm gonna go with like two and a half or three,
like something like maybe three given the time period, because
it's like centering a complicated woman at the center of
a story in a movie that's directed and written by women,
that's adapted from an old ass book by a woman.

(01:41:53):
A woman it bears saying that it is all white women,
you know, right down the line there. However, it's like
it is. It is rare in that regard, and I
feel like that's a lot of the reason why this
story has endured and so for its time specifically. Yeah,
a complicated female character at the center of a story,
whether I like her or not, is something. Sure, she's

(01:42:17):
no Elizabeth Bennett honey, but I think even Jane Austen
knows that, you know. So it's like it is it,
it's complicated. I don't like Emma. I just don't love
I don't know. These are just like like I think
that ultimately, like Emma doesn't. She understands what she's done,
but there's not really any consequence for it in a

(01:42:39):
way that I find so frustrating. She's like fucking with
the like she could have ruined Harriet's life. It's like
it really like she could have rout like in this
society specifically, Emma is trying to make herself feel like
she's doing something, like she's whatever, insecure about whatever it is.
It's everyone quite clear to me what it is, and

(01:43:00):
so she needs to feel like she's doing something. But
she's ruining the life of someone much poorer than her.
So I hate that. But I do, like I mean,
in terms of the class spectrum, there is a lot
of women of different classes that I think are all
I still think that Miss Bates and Harriet are made
to look silly because of their class and made to
seem like under educated. Yeah, but you do get humanizing

(01:43:23):
moments with them. It's not like their total cartoon characters.
It's just all so complicated. I don't know. But like
Emma is handsome, clever, and rich. It's on the fucking poster.
She starts the story that way, and she ends the
story that way, and she does learn a lesson about meddling.
But I think, given the fact that she's meddling on
a class basis, I just wish that this movie had

(01:43:46):
word to say about class. It's so it's hard, I
guess I'll But because Autumn deWilde is really fucking cool,
I want to see more movies from her. I thought
the screenplay was pretty well done for like Annie Taylor
Joy is you know chess Netflix, She's great Bill and

(01:44:09):
I he no notes, Like, I guess I'll give it
three nipples, and I'm giving them all to Jane Fairfax.
Give her a spare put in her pocket like a
tire nice. I will agree on three. I think, just
echoing a lot of your thoughts on it definitely could have,

(01:44:30):
especially again an adaptation coming out in twenty twenty. I
feel like, and I mean, maybe this is just because
we've been doing this podcast for over five years, but
I'm of the mind that if you're going to adapt
something with such old source material, accompany it with some
interesting commentary or make adaptation changes that update the story

(01:44:56):
in interesting and meaningful ways. And I think I think
this movie does attempt that to some degree, but I
agree that it doesn't do quite enough. Yeah, Like, I
don't necessarily want to see like an eighteen hundred story
with twenty twenty two morals, but like maybe I do.
But also I'm like, I think I just like want
to see new story, right, I don't know, I don't know,

(01:45:21):
And I guess some things are just there for entertainment.
And we don't need big whatever or whatever. Mute two mute.
Oh my god, and this era. I was about to
make a terrible joke go about the mewtwo movement anyway, Okay,

(01:45:49):
sorry everything, mute the hashtag mutube movement. You're evil. Oh
my god, that's so funny. Okay, three nipples I will give.
I'll give one to Harriet. I'll give one to miss
Bates because she deserves way more of an apology than
she got from Emma. And then I'll give my funnel

(01:46:13):
nipple to Bill Ni because I'm dying. You literally said
the mutube movement. It's the worst thing I've ever said.
Maybe I need to take a nap. That was unbelievable.
Wow Wow, well I I well everyone, I hope it

(01:46:36):
was worth waiting five years because Caitlin just said the
mutube movement. Um, I'm gonna get canceled for that. No,
I truly like we said it in our in our
pride and pressure this episode. But this was very rewarding,
very cool. Uh. You know, we're not going to read
a book for another five years, but thank you. Well,

(01:46:57):
we'll do Wuthering Heights in five years. Oh, I don't
know about that I take it back. Uh, you know,
it's just, uh, we're not a buck podcast. It really
takes a lot out of us. But he will be back.
We'll be back. We'll be back next month talking about
who knows, maybe Detective Pikachu. Do you do you all

(01:47:20):
want that? Do you home want? That's not enough in
the comments? All right, Well there you have it. That
was our unlocked Emma episode from our Patreon aka Matreon,
where you can subscribe to find even more episodes like that.
You'll notice we mentioned the Pride and Prejudice episode that

(01:47:42):
we had also covered that month. That's only on the Matreon,
So why don't you just, you know, scoot on over
to patreon dot com slash bactelcast for that episode and
many many others over one hundred bonus episodes, all for
five dollars a month. Yeah, and we have such a

(01:48:03):
fun um, we have such a fun community over there.
You also get to kind of at least when we
choose to not ignore the results of polls, which we've
only done once or twice and but it's because you're
all bullies. But anyway, Um, you also get to vote
on a lot of the movies that we cover. Um,

(01:48:23):
you'll get discounts for live events when we're in your area,
and a bunch of fun benefits. It's a really fun
community over there. It's a blast, it's blast and a half.
So UM, we hope to see you over there, um,
or we'll just see you back here on the main feed.
We got a lot of exciting stuff coming up and
with that, UM, have a great I'm trying to think

(01:48:47):
of a fun Emma way to oh, but I can't remember.
I mean bee boop fairly well something something, No, we're
bill Oh, now I remember where we talked about Pokemon
because Bill Nii, because Bill Nii is in Detective Pikachu,
and because I was playing a lot of Pokemon on

(01:49:07):
my Nintendo Switch at the time. Yes, that was your
Pokemon era and that was my talking about Bill Ni
playing Pokemon era. So that paired pretty nicely. Well, we're
Bill Ni jumping down the steps in that amazing moment
in the movie Emma twenty twenty. Yes, and with that
we fare thee well bye bye.

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