Hairspray (2007) with Keah Brown

Teen dancers Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Keah Brown can't stop the beat while discussing Hairspray (2007). Buy Keah's novel The Secret Summer Promise, out now! https://www.levinequerido.com/the-secret-summer-promise

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdecast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, eff and
Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Good morning, Bedel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Oh there's that's Oh.

Speaker 4 (00:22):
I wish I had time to come up with a
second everything like immediately. Yes, every night it's like a bedocast.
Every sounds on the bed Dolcast.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
People. Ever, we just lost all of our listeners all once.

Speaker 4 (00:41):
I am yours, Thank you, Kia.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
We gained a billion more.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
The world's gonna wake up and see Bechdel Cast and
me us that's you.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
The listener exactly.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's I.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Oh, I don't know what I was going to say. Oh,
I was going to say, this is like that. I
just had a really scary flashback to like the one
year I was doing musical improv and most lines I
was firing off sounded a little something like that.

Speaker 5 (01:14):
Rhy.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'm in the word with the word word.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
God, I am so jealous of people who can do
musical improv and that is a very embarrassing thing about me.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
No, it's really impressive. It requires so many different skills.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:31):
Yeah, And I'm also really jealous of people who can
sing in general. So dr how dare you?

Speaker 3 (01:39):
It's not nice?

Speaker 5 (01:40):
It's not nice. I would be such a problem if
I could sing, Oh my god, I have no friends.
They'd be like, KI, shut up, and I'd be like,
I don't know how.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
I used to really like, I had a huge theater
kid phase, and then I went to school with a
theater program, and then you're kind of forced out of
being a.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Theater kid because you're like, oh, these theater kids.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
Can sing, And I resented them for a while, but
then I'm like, you know what, if I can thing
like that, I guess I would be annoying as shit too.
And some people just have the gift they can be
annoying forever. So I mean, so I think we have
that gift. We've been annoying for a very long time.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
We are so annoying anyways.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Welcome to the Bechel Cast.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Dernte,
and this is our show where we examine movies through
an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as
a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. What
is the Bechdel test? Though, I'll tell you, or Jamie if.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
You want yeees, okay, I'll tell you. I was like, Wow,
they're really going for it today, okay.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
The Bechel Test is a media metric created by queer
cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Test, originally created as a bit as a goof for.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
Alison Bechtel's Credible Comics collection Likes to Watch out for
You got to read it.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
It's a classic. It's also getting adapted for TV.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
I don't know when it comes out, but it's turning
into an animated show that I'm very excited to watch.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Anyways, a lot of different versions of this test.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
It's sort of become pop. It's sort of it's become
extremely popular over the years.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
But the one we use is this.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
We require that there'd be two characters of a marginalized
gender with names talking to each other about something other
than a man for two lines of dialogue or more,
and it has to be an impactful exchange.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
It just does. It is what it is. If you
don't like it, you can get the fuck out. Many
movie musicals past this, many movie musicals don't.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
And we'll just leave it at that for now, because
today we're covering a movie musical. That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's our Hairspray episode, specifically the one from two thousand
and seven, which we were almost going to do an
episode on back in I want to say twenty eighteen
or twenty nineteen, when we famously on our Patreon aka
Matreon covered we called it different things. Sometimes it was

(04:15):
march Efron, sometimes it was zach Martron. Basically we were
doing zach Efron March. I don't remember if we actually
observed this in the month of March.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I would say it's safe to say that we didn't,
right exactly. Most likely we.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Knew that we had many, many, many requests for Hairspray
two thousand and seven, but we didn't end up doing
it because we wanted other perspectives aside from our own,
Hence bringing on our guest who you know her from
episodes on Cadet Kelly Brandy Cinderella from nineteen ninety seven

(04:52):
ever after, and she's a journalist and author of the
brand new novel The Secret Summer Promise.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Kia Brown yeah, welcome back, welcome back.

Speaker 5 (05:04):
I'm so excited to be here. You know, I love
you too, So this is gonna be good.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
I love you too. Congratulations on the fuck. We're so excited.

Speaker 5 (05:13):
Thank you. I love it. I'm sessed. Please buy it,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
So what's your relationship with Hairspray two thousand and seven.

Speaker 5 (05:22):
Oh, I'm obsessed with it, like, genuinely obsessed. It's one
of my pick me up movies when I need to
feel something good. Yeah, I put it on. Sometimes I
sing among sometimes I'm just like deeply engrossed in what's happening,
you know, I know some of the lines back and forth,
and like it's just a vibe. I'm deeply obsessed with it.

(05:44):
And the majority of that obsession has nothing to do
with Zach Brown. Like he's great in it, but he's
not why I keep coming.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Back, sure fair, Yeah, he's not the main attraction.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
James Marsden is No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
Absolutely no way.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
I mean, hold on, because I think that a lot
of people would agree with that.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
And I love James Marsden and sorry to not be
passing the Bechdel test right now, but and I hope
this age as well, and because you never know when
you say I love a man, I've regretted saying that
many times.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
We had famous and otherwise right.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
But I'm a big Marsden fan. I would say.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
The man's got range. Maybe not in the movement of
his face necessarily, but he's got range. He can do anything.
I thought he was just a treat in the Sonic
the Hedgehog movies. I love the guy, and he's amazing
in that new injury duty he's doing.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
He's amazing.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
He's perfect.

Speaker 5 (06:46):
Goodness, he's perfect.

Speaker 4 (06:48):
This is my second favorite, or I guess like second
most impactful James Marston performance, right behind Enchanted.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Because I think he's pretty close to perfect and enchanted perfect.

Speaker 5 (07:00):
Yeah, this is my number one. This to me is
just magnamobus. Did I use that correctly?

Speaker 2 (07:06):
I think so.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah, he really was born to be Corny Collins.

Speaker 5 (07:09):
He was, Oh, we're gonna get it, We're gonna get.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
In Jamie, what is your relationship with Hairspray?

Speaker 5 (07:18):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (07:19):
I also loved the hell out of this movie, so
the second it came out, there's like for for better
or for worse. I love basically every movie musical that
came out in the two thousands. Most of this love
is purely nostalgia based when I rewatched them, because you're just.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Like hmm hmm, Joel Schumacher. Phantom of the Opera Does
it hold up? No, Well, I watched it again. Of course,
Chris Columbus rent even worse, worse. But and yet I
continue to watch Chicago Chicago Now that holds up. I
want that, not two days ago.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
And Harrispray.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
I think Hairspray in Chicago or the two movie musicals
from this era that hold up the best.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
I think it's a great adaptation.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
And for the I had never seen before I was
prepping for this episode, I'd never seen the original John
Waters nineteen eighty eight one with Divine and Ricky Lake,
So I went back and watched it, expecting that I
would like it better, because I feel like that's the
general what you expect. The original is usually better. But
with all due respect to my king John Waters, the

(08:33):
musical rips. It needs the songs. It needs the songs,
and it needs James Morrison. And that's just kind of
the beginning, middle, and end.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Those are objective facts.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
If Divine could be in the movie adaptation. It would
be the perfect movie in terms of me smiling. We
have plenty of notes like perfect movie.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
In asterisks, many thoughts that we will share.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
We have about two hours and what's not perfect about it?

Speaker 3 (09:03):
But yeah, I love Hairspray.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
I listened to and I also loved Nikki Blonski so much,
and I'm still angry to this day that she didn't
have a bigger career coming off of Hairspray.

Speaker 5 (09:16):
A deeply agree, right.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
I remember, like her origin story really spoke to me
because she worked at Coldstone Creamery and they heard her
singing there, and I was just like, that is so magical,
Like she was just like plucked out of.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Nowhere, literally perfectly cast, like the perfect Tracy.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, this movie is the best, and I'm it
was interesting to look at it more critically because I
hadn't seen it in like maybe four or five years.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
Kaitly went your history with Hairspray.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
I saw it somewhere along the way, probably like twenty ten,
when I was first falling in love with zac Efron.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Better late than Never, Never, baby, exactly.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I watched it, maybe it was like twenty twelve, who
could say even But as listeners might know. I tend
not to gravitate toward live action movie musicals, but I
will say this one is like campy and colorful enough
that it works for me. Some of them are just

(10:18):
too they're taking themselves too seriously or something. They need
to basically be an animated movie without actually being animated
for me to be able to stomach a movie musical.
But this one works.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
I kind of I kind of wonder.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, It's like I think that I consider the end
of like movie musicals of me seeing every movie musical
was when I just could not do the lame Is adaptation.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
I couldn't do it.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
No thank you, I could not do it, could not
finish it. I was like, that's not for me specifically
a virgo, but it's for somebody.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Someone likes it. I'm glad that that movie is hilarious too,
because it's like that I think that that's that's the same.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Director as Cats yea an iconic movie musical, But.

Speaker 4 (11:06):
There it's like the I think that that's where that
director was like, we're gonna do live singing, and for
some reason everyone's like, good idea.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
But then you listen to.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
The soundtrack and you're like, oh, this is not a
good idea. We shouldn't be hearing Russell Crosse sing live,
and I think he'd agree with us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, it's just as bad as when Pierce Brosnan sings
a song in Mamma Mia.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Oh but he's camp.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
Do you remember the song in Mama Mia where he
sings like like I don't know, like his mouth is
just like full the whole time.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
The way he sings sos is unparalleled.

Speaker 5 (11:43):
It's like he's on the joke. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Russell Crowe didn't get the memo unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
So I it took me a while to see this Hairspray,
but I did see the nineteen is it eighty eight? Yeah,
hairsp Bray, written and directed by John Waters. I saw
that sometime in college, so it was like two thousand
and five, two thousand and six. I was watching a
few John Waters movies back then, including Pink Flamingos, and

(12:14):
I think cry Baby was the other one. And I
because cry Baby is a musical, I think I assumed
the original would be a musical as well, but no,
but it's not. And what happened was that the so
this movie that we're talking about today is based on

(12:35):
the Broadway musical adaptation of the original movie from nineteen
eighty eight, so it went through a few different evolutions.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
It's funny because we're Kiya after this, we're doing Newsies,
which is like kind of the opposite journey where it's
like movie musical and everyone hated it and then they
turned it into anyways.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
I love musicals so much. I can't believe.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
Prepping for these episodes reminded me that we have yet
to cover Little Shop of.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Horrors and how that is a travesty.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
Okay, Hairspray, Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about like
the history of and like the adaptation changes that were
made too, Because I knew that John Water's allegiance to
Baltimore is unparalleled and he lives there to this day,
but I didn't know how connected the original story for
Hairspray was to like his childhood, and Hairspray is basically

(13:33):
like a like John waters reimagined history of his own childhood.
So excited to get into it.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, let's take a quick break and then come back
for the recap and we're back. We're back, Okay, Here
is the recap of Hairspray two thousand and seven.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Everyone's welcome to sing when their favorite songs come up.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yes, putting that out there.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Okay, so we are famously in Baltimore, Maryland. Ever heard
of it? It is nineteen sixty two. Yes, we meet
teenager Tracy Turnblad played by Nikki Blonski as she's putting
on Hairspray and singing, good morning Baltimore.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
I song love her so much.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
She's incredible.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
I love when people have it.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
It's like, one of the easiest ways to get me
to fall in love with the character is when they
have deep allegiance to a place that kind of sucks,
and that is like the most relatable, wonderful thing in
the entire world.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
I feel nothing when people are like New York is amazing.
You're just like, shut up.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, that famous song new York is amazing.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
You know, from the musical New York is Amazing. Well,
but the King of New York Newsies. I got Newsies
in the brain. Anyways.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
I don't really respond to songs about New York or
LA because there's a billion of them. Yeah, there's only
one song about Baltimore that I know of, and it
involves Tracy Turnblood going to school in a garbage truck
and that I love.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
We love a queen. Okay, so.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Exactly, she misses the school bus. She's gonna get on
a garbage truck. The song is about how she loves
life and she loves Baltimore and she loves dancing. We
also get a little cameo from John Waters and.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
He's the flasher who lives next door mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
And she sings about how she wants to be a star.
She just needs the opportunity. She goes to school, it's
boring and she's really just counting down the minutes when
she and her best friend Penny Pingleton played by Amanda
Bynes a perfectly cash so perfectly cast love her.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
I forgot that.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
Alison Janny plays Amanda Byn's mom, and that's really inspired
that that happened.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
This is an incredible cast. You've got Christopher Walkin, You've
got Michelle Pfeiffer, basically all of the villains from Batman Returns.
You've got Jerry Stiller, John Travolta, is there, Brittany no
Queen Latifa. It's just wow, it's exciting.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
A very young Oh my gosh, wait, no, a very
young she's mainly a composer. Now, who am I thinking
of Taylor Parks? For all you pop music heads out there,
she's like a really favorable she's an artist as well,
but she's like written a ton of pop songs and
she plays yez.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Okay. So Tracy and Penny go home and watch their
favorite after school television program called Corny Collins Show, hosted
by Corny Collins played by James Marsden.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
I didn't tap dance to that in high school.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Whoa yeah twist when he's like.

Speaker 5 (17:15):
Nice white kids, you like something their day and once
a month we have a good day. I love that. Sorry,
I'm feeling.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Things for your heart out.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
This is now a singing podcast, no experience required.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
So on the Corny Collins Show, teens dance. That's really
just this show that the teens are dancing with each.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
Other based on like real shows that happens back in
the day. And this we'll get into this a little
like The Corny Collins Show is parodying or mirroring a
specific Baltimore based team dance show that John Waters watched
growing up that also had a majority white cast and
then had I believe that they did call it Negro

(18:03):
Day in Baltimore at the time. So like most of
the details of the Corney Collin Show are directly ripped
from John Watter's childhood, except for the way the movie ends,
which we'll get.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, yes, okay. So we meet some of the teens
who regularly dance on the Corney Collins Show, including Amber
that's Britney Snow and Link that's zac Efron and it's
also like Link Zelda Tears of the Kingdom much anyway,
we get to know Amber and Link a little bit.

(18:37):
They are dating. Amber is very mean, Link is nice,
and Tracy has a big crush on Link.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
There is this thing with Okay, I never noticed this before,
but there is definitely a vibe about Harris Bray where,
for some reason, men most men in this story are
impervious to being bad.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
They're all good. No, he's good.

Speaker 4 (19:02):
Corney Collins, He's definitely not racist, he's good.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
The only guy who's questionable is the station manager, the
person above Michelle Pfeiffer's character.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Right, Yes, capitalism the person racism the person yes.

Speaker 5 (19:18):
Except he doesn't outwardly, He's not as outward about it
in the way that Michelle Pfeifer is, which I find
to be hilarious because you would think it would be
coming from him to her and then her carrying it.
But it's just like, no, she's rogue.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
She's like mask off evil. Yeah, extremely she took her
catwoman mask off, and she's like, I'm she was like racism.

Speaker 5 (19:44):
She was like, I don't want to be I want
to be racist.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
So but she plays such a good villain, she really does.
So we meet all these teens who are mostly white,
and then we learn about this one day of the
mon that they call Negro d which is led by
motormouth Mabel played by Queen Latifah, which is the only
time when black people are allowed to dance on the program.

(20:11):
Otherwise the show is completely segregated and white. The show
announces that they have a spot, an open spot for
a new dancer, and they're holding auditions, and Tracy wants
to audition, but her mom, Edna turned Blad played by
John Travolta, is worried that people will laugh at her

(20:34):
because Tracy is fat. But her dad, Wilbur played by
Christopher Walkin, is like, no, Tracy, if you want it,
go for it.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
So another man who's always good, good, never bed.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
I did think and we'll talk about this later too.
I rewatching this. I do feel like this movie does
a pretty solid job of like illustrating how mothers will
often project their own issues onto their daughters.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
I love that Tracy's like nope.

Speaker 5 (21:08):
She's like I'm good, thank you.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yeah, we're actually both on a healing journey mother. It's nice.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
So Tracy goes to the audition. But Velma von Tussel. Also,
the character names in this movie are incredible. Everything that's
Michelle Pfeiffer aka former Miss Baltimore Crabs.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
She is I love when in these movie musicals when
the actor can't really sing and kind of knows that
and so it's just like I'm just gonna perform. And
I feel like Michelle Pfeiffer really performs Miss Baltimore Crabs.
I wouldn't say she's singing necessarily, but I don't care.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Right, Yes, And Velma does not like the look of Tracy,
and she does not like that Tracy is pro integration because,
as we mentioned, Velma is very racist. She's also Amber's
mom and the TV station manager, so she has like
a say in who is being cast in which like

(22:12):
kind of segments will happen or not on the.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Show Very Evil Girl Boss. Yes, Yes five.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
So later that day at school, Tracy gets detention because
of the height of her hair, and this is where
she meets several black students because similar to the American
prison industrial complex, where black people are disproportionately incarcerated, black

(22:41):
students at this school are disproportionately sent to detention. And
there Tracy meets befriends, and dances with Seaweed Jay Stubbs
played by Elijah Kelly.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
I had a crush on every boy in this movie
when I was oh, and I.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
Went through a real like I'm gonna marry all of you.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah, I just really like some days it's a zach Afronde,
some days it's an Elijah Kelly day, and if I'm
feeling mature, it's a James Marsden day.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Really, anything can happen.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Now, Link, who goes to Tracy's school sees her dancing
in the detention room and is like, oh, if Corny
Collins saw you dancing like that, he would put you
on the show. And then Tracy considers this and then
does a whole song and dance number about how horny
she is for link. Then she goes back to the

(23:41):
set of the show or some event. It's like a
dance event sponsored by the Corny Collins Show or I
don't know something. The Corny Collins people are there and
she quote unquote borrows a dance slash appropriates a dance
from her new friend Seaweed, which never.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
Is brought up again. She she does she does what
the TikTok thing that white teenagers do on TikTok there that, yeah,
I guess it never like truly truly hit, and it's
kind of embarrassing. It never like truly hit until I
was watching to prep for this episode that I was like,
she steals seaweed dance and never credits.

Speaker 5 (24:26):
Because she asks, but she never ever says and this
is by Seaweed.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
She's just like, yeah, which is wild because Seaweed is
usually right there. It's so it's so annoying that that
was one, especially because like that happens in the original
as well, and it's like, you could change.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
That, but nope, they did not.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
And then Zagafron sings Ladies' Choice, which is such banger,
like it's still on my Apple Music.

Speaker 4 (24:58):
I really does I feel like zach Efron when he
was not allowed to sing in high school musical one.
He took that really personally and dedicated the next half
decade of his life to being like, Oh, I can't sing,
Oh I can't sing. That's interesting, when obviously he can.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, I've seen it, I've heard it. Okay. So Corny
Collins sees Tracy doing this dance and he loves it,
and he puts her on the show, and she's now
a cast member. She is continuing to talk about how
she is pro integration. Corney Collins is also pro integration,

(25:38):
which enrages Velma. Also, Corney announces the Miss Teen Hairspray contest,
which is Tracy's dream to participate in, and so Tracy
starts regularly dancing on the program. She's becoming more and
more popular. Kids at school are starting to pay more

(26:00):
attention to her. Mister Pinky played by Jerry Stiller who
is in the original movie, who plays her dad. Yeah,
he is the owner of a dress store and he
wants Tracy to be his spokesgirl. And Tracy is like, oh, mom,
you should be my agent and help me negotiate deals

(26:22):
like this, But her mom Edna is very self conscious
about her weight and she hasn't left the house in years.
So Tracy, via song and dance, of course, shows her
mom that times are changing and that for people who
are different, our time is coming.

Speaker 4 (26:42):
I love that. I mean, I love all those songs.
I also love Welcome to the Sixties. Also did a
dance to that in high school.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Incredible.

Speaker 5 (26:53):
It's such a good song. So you made the correct choice.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
It's true. Then Seaweed invites Tracy, Link and Penny to
a party where they meet Seaweed's sister, Little Linez, played
by Taylor Parks, and everyone is dancing and having a
good time. There's romantic tension between Seaweed and Penny, but

(27:16):
then Maybell reveals that Velma has canceled Negro Day and
Tracy suggests that they march and protest, because you know,
civil rights demonstrations were white people's ideascy and they're like, wow,
great idea, Tracy, and Tracy plans to march with her

(27:40):
black friends, but Link is a coward and he's like,
I'm not gonna go. This would jeopardize my career.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
Another I mean, it's so weird. Okay, So this is
where obviously, the all men are good rule that this
movie subscribes to is challenged, but it doesn't close in
a satisfying way at all at all.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
They're like are you Are you guys good? They're like yeah,
you know, no, Biggie, Like I feel like, yeah, we're good.
We'll just we'll look past that the fact that you
don't care enough to stand up for people that are
supposed to be my friends, and we'll just.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Write be together and then I'm gonna kiss you at
the end. I feel like when he.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Comes back, he's responding to like not the issue of
why everyone's mad at him, where like he everyone's like,
well fuck you link because he refuses to stand up
to racism or march. And but then he comes back
and he's like, Tracy, I love your body.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
And I was like, that wasn't that wasn't the issue.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
That wasn't the problem.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
But she's like okay, and then it was like, but
that wasn't the issue.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
I felt like I was losing my mind.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, well I was.

Speaker 5 (28:53):
Just thinking like in with in the song without Love,
literally they're talking about like like in the Sex with
Seaweed and Penny, it's like very clear, like we can't
be together. And then it's like Link is over there,
like Tracy without you, like I don't know what I'll do,
And then she's like, Link, I'm about the breakout so
that I can get my hand down. You're like they're

(29:13):
having separate, separate conversations entirely about what's Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
One of his lyrics is something like I will love
you no matter what you weigh. And it's not that
that's coming out of nowhere completely because various characters have
commented on her weight prior to this, but Link never did,
and that didn't seem to be an issue for him
nor for Tracy.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
In fact, it was never an issue for Tracy. Right,
that was an issue for her mom. But Tracy has
never once been like I don't like my body, I'm
uncomfortable with what I weigh. Link won't love me, in fact,
she says, and I can hear the bells and birthday
the Link will love a woman like we will wait
and see, like she knows that she's got you know

(30:06):
what it takes to be loved by somebody regardless of anything.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
Exactly, which is like one of the which is one
of the like that's what I love so much about Tracy,
and that's true in both adaptations, but I feel like
it's stated really really clearly. But yeah, it's like Link
is inventing a problem that he doesn't ever talk about
with anybody else if it is a problem for him,
or like an insecurity that he has or a stigma

(30:32):
that he's absorbed. But yeah, he doesn't seem to understand
why everyone's mad at him.

Speaker 5 (30:38):
Yeah, and then strangely enough, like he comes back and
everybody's just not mad. I mean, that's how musicals work.
But it's like everybody forgot about their fundamental differences in
terms of even even I did because I love this movie.
But it's like, but it's like, when you think about
it critically, they would have to have a conversation about it.

(31:00):
There's just no way. But you know, in my head,
canda together forever. It's fine. But still they just everybody
was like, oh, okay, he's with us now because he's
dancing on stage, you can't stop the beat. And then
he's like, come on, I knows, let's let's you know,
let's do it, and they dance and he gives it
her moment and like it's like, okay, cool. He likes

(31:21):
bad people awesome. You know, it's like, I guess he
learned or whatever.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
He's one of the white people who helps solve racism
in this movie.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, they really This movie is wild.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
And we were talking about this yesterday with a very
different movie, National Treasure Too where it's like it I
don't know, because this movie's messaging is so like everything
is great and three white people from Baltimore solved racism forever.
It's like the fact that the movie is also really

(31:58):
fun to watch, that a more sticky lie to like
absorb and the same way that you're like, I love
watching National Treasure Too Bad that it's jingoistic garbage at
its core.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
But.

Speaker 5 (32:14):
Yeah, see, I feel like I feel like the ability
for it to be so fun the two thousand and
seventh verge because I like the original, but let's be serious.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, it's not as fun.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
This one's fun. I think the way that this is
fun sort of makes you forget just how to me.
It makes me forget just how messy the sort of
positives and reality of what's happening is. Because I spent
my time desperate to find Corny Collins and Motormouth Maybell

(32:48):
fan fiction yes, did you want first watch this? I
was like, I want them to get bad. We need
a sequel bad. And I was just like, I remember
being like a child searching for their fan fiction because
I wanted somebody else to prove to me that I
was not wrong about their insane chemistry.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Did you ever find it?

Speaker 1 (33:11):
No?

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Well, I guess you have to write it.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
James Marrison been and anything with Queen Latifa since because
their chemistry is truly off the charts.

Speaker 5 (33:21):
I don't think so. But I feel like if I
was to ever interview him, like I wouldn't act, that
would be my first question. I'd be like, listen, can
we talk about the chemistry that you too at or
you know, do you have time for that? They'd be like, Kia,
that's not the aim of this article about years ago.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
It doesn't matter, Okay, So back to the movie that
is about the movie that was all on time.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Sorry, back to the recap. Back to the recap. Link
has just said I'm not going to march with you.
I can't jeopardize my career, which upsets Tracy greatly. Meanwhile,
Velma goes to Tracy's dad's joke shop. She's trying to

(34:07):
seduce him in order to destroy their family and try
to get Tracy kicked off the show, and it almost
works because Edna walks in the shop when Velma has
herself wrapped around Wilbur, and she gets very upset. But
Edna eventually forgives Wilbur, realizing that it was like a setup,

(34:30):
and the two of them, Edna and Wilbur sing a
song about how they are timeless to each other.

Speaker 4 (34:37):
They're kind of beautiful, yeah, and neither of them can
sing no, but that's okay.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
It works.

Speaker 5 (34:44):
It was beautiful. It was beautiful though, like, wow, what
a moment.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
I know mom and dad are working it out.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Then it's the day of the march and Tracy shows
up and Maybell is like, well, if you march with us,
you will never be allowed to dance on the show again.
And Tracy says, I don't care. This is more important,
So they march. Maybell sings a song and the cops
and press show up and Tracy hits a cop with

(35:14):
her sign and he's like, you just assaulted me. So
she runs away and now there's this huge man hunt
with the cops looking for Tracy. Penny tries to help her,
but Penny's mom Alice and Janny, who is also very
racist and very awful.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
And also super religious.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Right, yes, she punishes Penny and like locks her in
her room, but then Seaweed comes to rescue Penny. While
that's happening, Link realizes he's in love with Tracy, and
they all are singing a song about these kind of
like forbidden love's kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
I just wanted to make a quick note that in
the I think the original movie if I'm remembering correctly,
and definitely in the original stage musical at Tracy goes
to jail with other protesters, that does.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Not happen in the movie. So they cut a song
that I've never heard. Oh but it's called the Big
Dollhouse question mark.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I don't know, okay, sure.

Speaker 5 (36:21):
Also, can I make one small note please when one
of the funniest lines to me in the movie is
when Seaweed goes to get Kenny out and she's like,
sorry about the nots and he was like, it's fine,
but was your mom and the Navy? Yeah, because he's
impressed finding it, by the way, how like intricate the

(36:43):
knots are And he's like one of the funniest lines
to me in the movie because he's just like, what
is going on? Am I going to get you out
of it?

Speaker 4 (36:51):
Right?

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah? Because she says something like I was so worried
that the color of our skin would keep us apart,
and he's like, no, but these knots might yeah, and
we're like, uh huh okay. So then Tracy, Penny, Seaweed,
Maybelle Edna, and a bunch of other people sneak into

(37:11):
the TV station on the day of the Miss Hairspray pageant,
and right when it seems like Amber is about to
be announced as the winner, Tracy crashes the pageant. She
dances with Link a little bit, and then Link as
we as We alluded to, invites Seaweed's little sister, Ayez,

(37:32):
on to the stage to dance, which is the first
time this program has integrated dancing, which, of course Velma
has a conniption about. Penny's mom is also seeing this
on TV. She's freaking out because then like Seaweed comes
on stage and dances with Penny. Meanwhile, a bunch of

(37:53):
people are calling into the station to place their votes
for the pageant, and Anez is named Miss Teen Hairspray,
and then Corny Collins declares that his show is now
officially integrated and everyone's dancing and having a great time.
Velma is fired, and then Tracy and Link kiss the end.

Speaker 5 (38:21):
I just think, what a movie.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
The end, They're like, racism cured, we fixed it nineteen
sixty two, only took a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
You're like, wow, kind of yep, So let's take another
quick break and we will come back to discuss, and
we are back.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Where shall we start?

Speaker 4 (38:52):
Where? Well? I can I share the historical context to begin?

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Please?

Speaker 4 (38:57):
So yeah, I didn't know any of of this before
prepping for this episode, but John Waters wrote and directed
the original and was very much pulling from his memories
of Baltimore growing up when writing this. And so The
Corny Collins Show is directly based on a teen dance

(39:20):
show called The Buddy Dean Show that also had a
big integration scandal. However, it ends very differently. So I'm
going to be reading from an Atlantic article that came
out in twenty sixteen where there was a lot of
writing about Hairspray because they did one of those TV

(39:41):
broadcasts of the stage musical. So there's a lot of
twenty sixteen discourse around Hairspray, which sounds confusing but isn't anyways.
The piece is by Matthew Delmont, and here it is quote.
In December nineteen sixty three, producers at Baltimore's WJZTV canceled
the book Buddy Dean Show rather than integrate the popular

(40:02):
teen dance program. This move would have been a footnote
in the annals of television if not for director John Waters,
whose nineteen eighty eight film Hairspray offered up an alternate
history with its fictional Corny Collins Show and rose tinted
lets all Dance Together. Ending from nineteen fifty seven to
nineteen sixty three, only white teens were allowed to attend

(40:23):
the weekday broadcasts of The Buddy Dean Show, with the
exception of one Monday each month when black teenagers filled
the studio, the so called Black Monday. In nineteen sixty three,
the Civic Interest Group, a student integrationist group founded at
Morgan State University, challenged this policy by obtaining tickets for
black and white teens to attend the show on a

(40:43):
day reserve for black teenagers. After a surprise interracial broadcast.
WJZTV received bomb and arson threats, hate mail, and complaints
from white parents. Facing controversy over the possibility of more
integrated broadcasts, the station canceled the program. So that is
something that John Waters remembered from when he was a kid,

(41:06):
and that was kind of part of his I guess
mission when writing nineteen eighty eight, was imagining that ending differently,
So I just wanted to open with that thing I learned.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, that is helpful context. And he was I think
one of the few white filmmakers in that era who
was addressing and examining racial inequality of that time. And
then he wrote this kind of like fairy tale ending
almost to this narrative, So you kind of have to

(41:47):
look at the movie through that lens of like, yeah,
everything was great and racism solved. But yea, his approach
to that is extremely a like white perspective, and this
adaptation that we are talking about, we're focusing on the
two thousand and seven to one, carries a lot of

(42:09):
that like kind of fumbling of how that subject matter
is handled because like, this is a white savior narrative.
The movie has very few black characters despite it being
a movie that involves advocating for racial integration. Like we mentioned,

(42:32):
there are moments of like characters appropriating culture and dance
from black characters, and the movie presenting that is like
a positive thing. There's this example of like police aggression
directed toward a civil rights protester, but it being directed
at a white person, when we know that police aggression

(42:54):
and brutality is disproportionately targeted at black and brown people.
So there's just all these things that they're like, yeah,
white people, it was their idea to solve racism, and
then they did it.

Speaker 5 (43:08):
I think the thing though, and I kind of give
them credit for this, is that, like, as a black person,
I enjoy the movie more knowing that it ends in
this weird happily ever after. Like I don't want to
watch a movie where I'm just reminded of the trauma
of you know, that time frame, and that's in the

(43:30):
civil rights in general. It's like, I enjoy that this
version of the movie Corny Collins Show didn't get canceled,
or that you know, racism is seemingly solved, because I
don't want to watch another movie or another musical where
I'm reminded of my own otherness because I see it
all the time. Like I think that the I think

(43:52):
the thing that for me about Hairspray is that I
can forgive the rest of it because I don't need
it to be a document styles right, I would prefer
to escape for a little and pretend, like you know,
Corny Combs are the person that exists, and he's like
nice to black people and secretly with mortimonk female because

(44:14):
they're seeing you together and they're very happy and it's fine.
But I would also, like I just I think for
me it's easier to dismiss or ignore those things because
it makes me feel better knowing that they don't exist
in that world. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
That is totally fair.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, that's something that I saw when I was going
through the sort of like twenty sixteen round of discourse,
A great time for internet discourse. Twenty sixteen really nothing,
nothing like it, only only better discourse was twenty twenty
a great year having opinions. Yeah, And I think that

(44:57):
the discussion that you two were both having was very
present in that round of discourse because I think in
that same piece in the Atlantic, Matthew Delmont is arguing
that you know twenty sixteen is not the time to
be presenting alternative history on the history of racism in America,
which I think is a fair point. And also I don't,

(45:19):
I don't know. I think it like really depends on
who is watching Hairspray and what they're watching it for.
It Really it feels like it's the eye of the
beholder is really relevant in that discussion because like you,
what you just said like makes total sense. Why would
you want to see trauma played out in this big,
splashy musical. And then also it's like, I don't know,

(45:42):
I guess. It's like I don't, I guess. I wonder
is there a member of the audience in Hairspray that
watches it and is like, yep, this was historical document?

Speaker 5 (45:53):
Like the thing is like, why are you watching hares
for a history lesson? I think it's the same thing
with the Little More the new reboot is people were
up White people were upsetly be clear, it was white
people who were upset because they didn't talk about slavery,
because when they adjusted where everything was, they were upset
that they didn't talk about slavery. And it's like, sorry,

(46:16):
I don't want to go see Ario Eric and the
Slave Trade. I don't want to. I don't want to
go see that. I think. I think if you're looking
at a movie musical from two thousand and seven and
saying to yourself, damn it, why is that not accurate
to what actually happened? Is this my history? Then you

(46:38):
have bigger fish to fry, Like it's not, you have
bigger concern I guess.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I guess. My thing is that had this been in
the hands of black filmmakers, they would have because, like,
I also appreciate that there's like escapist media that does
touch on racism and segregation that doesn't have this like traumatic,
violent ending. But I think that there are certain elements

(47:06):
within the story that could have been handled a little
bit differently had they been had it been like written
and directed by black filmmakers, where there wouldn't be those
like moments where like, yeah, oh, it's totally fine when
this white person appropriates this dance from this black dancer.
Yeah it's the white girl's idea for the black people

(47:26):
to hold a protest like.

Speaker 5 (47:29):
It would have been met with more nuance.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
I see what you're saying, right right, right right, Yeah,
I think my main issue.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Yeah, because it's I guess the frustrating thing is like
those would not have been difficult changes to make, and
it wouldn't have really changed what happens in the story
much at all.

Speaker 5 (47:46):
I think in many ways it is a reflection of
what happens, you know, but who will say something and
then a white person will get the credit for it
or whatever. Sure, but I do think I see what
you're saying, Caitlin about the fact that, like, if it
was directed by black people, there would be more nuanced
to it. It would it would have brought about I think,

(48:06):
a more nuanced conversation for sure. But I do absolutely
see what you're saying. I just think it's like in
that aspect. Unfortunately, in many ways, it's true you shoult
of have to use non black people to get the
point across about black things, even though it didn't really
work because she didn't give them credit.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Right.

Speaker 4 (48:28):
Yeah, it's frustrating because it's like, what it doesn't really
change anything about the movie if she gives him credit
for that, and it doesn't change anything about the movie.
If it is like motormouth Maybell's idea to March and
not Tracy's so and I also is interested in this
same Atlantic piece. It gives the context of when the
music when the Broadway musical came out, it came out

(48:52):
really shortly after nine to eleven. I know, Shrek nine
to eleven, Hairspray the musical was the sequence of events,
and that, I guess wasn't surprising to me because I
feel like there's so much post nine to eleven media
that was very escapist and in some ways, and I
guess I don't mean this as good or bad, but

(49:13):
like revisionist and like we need to all come together,
and yeah, I feel like Hairspray's like very squarely that
the musical at least is very squarely in there. I
guess my main thing is I wish we knew more
about the black characters in the story and that they
were actually written, because it's like, we certainly have this

(49:36):
space for it, especially because you have Queen Latifah. Why
would you not give her character a backstory outside of
like a couple of lines. I mean the same with Seaweed,
where Seaweed is on screen pretty frequently, but we don't
really know much about him outside of that he loves

(49:56):
being on the show and that he's falling in love
with Penny. You don't get much. I mean, I don't know. Yeah,
I feel like there was definitely space, and I wonder
if it exists in the musical and wast cut for
the movie. I don't know. I haven't seen the musical.
I would like to, but I wonder if there are
scenes where you see like Inez and Maybell and Seaweed
at home, the way that you see all the white

(50:18):
characters at home, including Penny.

Speaker 5 (50:20):
I was gonna say, we learned so much about Amber.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah, we learn about Amber, we learn about Penny.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
There's a whole song about Velma's teenage years, like.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Baltimore Crabs are like, yeah, why do we have that?
But not get any scenes where we see this family
at home. Also, think about how much more cathartic it
would be when Inez wins Miss teen Hairspray if we
knew anything about her.

Speaker 5 (50:48):
Yeah, right, Because even when we see her in that
little bit where Seaweed is singing run till that, all
he says is like, you know you're up next, your
time is coming, But we don't really know what she's
after at any point after that, or like you know,
like she winn which is great, but it's like, who

(51:09):
who are they outside of their connection to Tracy? I
would love I agree, I would love to know. Although
they did use them with people correctly and by finally
giving our a song, that would have been a crime.
I had she done a whole movie with no sing,
I would have been like, absolutely not. But you know,
aside from her secret toward love affair with twenty Pollins,

(51:32):
she you know, I wanted more. I wanted to know
more about her and and sort of how how she's
raising these two kids in this time frame of Baltimore.

Speaker 4 (51:42):
Yeah, yeah, because I did. I mean, and I found
that to be true in the original movie as well,
where like you were saying earlier kid like I think
it's or Kaylie, did you say I don't remember? My
brain no longer works that? Like John Waters was a
director who wanted to his center issues like racism and

(52:02):
like homophobia in his work at a time where not
a lot of directors were wanting to do that and
certainly not wanting to do that in a way that
had any like nuance or like it wasn't really steeped
in trauma. And that's like part of what's amazing about
him but it's like, but if that is something you're
committed to doing, you have to like write the characters

(52:25):
right or it's gonna ring a little bit hollow for sure.

Speaker 5 (52:29):
Also, having seen cry Baby, which is one of the
wildest movies I've ever se.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
I barely remember it, I think it's like.

Speaker 5 (52:39):
In some ways his Hairspray makes sense after you watch Crybaby,
because it's like it's sort of dry and weird and
it doesn't exactly make sense in a way, So like
maybe that's his vibe. Like I think with this one,
with the two thousand and seven one, they had ample opper,

(53:00):
you need to make these things make sense, right, and
some of them, some of them they did, but most
of them it was just sort of like, nah, it's good.
We don't gotta you know, we don't gotta really focus
on that. Yeah, what do you mean they have thoughts
and ideas outside of like Tracy hoping.

Speaker 4 (53:16):
That no movie would have happened. Uh, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.
I think it's so funny because this movie, like obviously
it's based on John Water's work, but it is so
sincere that it's sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, this was
at one point a John Waters movie because it just
feels like antithetical to how like his vibe where it's

(53:40):
funny but it doesn't have the same sense of humor.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
You would never guess that, like Pink Flamingos and the
two thousand and seven Hairspray came from the mind of
the same person.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
Yeah, well because also he he I don't think wrote
the book of the music.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Awe, no, no no, So yeah it was so he
wrote and directed the original film from eighty eight the
Broadway musical adaptation book written by Mark O'Donnell and Thomas
Mean Song lyrics by Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman. If
you're wondering if those are all white men, yes, they

(54:18):
sure are. And then the two thousand and seven screenplay
was written by Leslie Dixon, a white woman, and directed
by Adam Shankman, a white man.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
So we also directed A Lock to Remember, he sure
to add, which is my favorite movie in the whole
entire world. Sorry, I just had this.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
Oh my gosh, well it really is a singing episode.

Speaker 5 (54:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
I like Adam Shankman, you know, missus the mark on
a lot of the themes in this movie. But boy,
can that guy direct a movie that I will watch
the fuck out of, Like.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
Yeah, because did the step with some of the step
up movies.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
He directed The Wedding Planner I walked remember, bringing down
the House. So he's Queen Latifa Cannon the Pacifier. Yep,
that is Dwayne the Rock Johnson's babysitter movie Cheaper by
the Dozen, two Hairspray. Oh, and he did direct What
Men Want Alright, alright, oops, all right, and then he

(55:26):
directed the Enchanted sequel I didn't watch. I like him.

Speaker 5 (55:34):
He's got some hits on his some banger, it's true.

Speaker 4 (55:38):
Also, fun fact about Adam Shakeman, I mean he's he's
I think we talked about this probably on the Walk
to Remember episode, but he's or maybe the Wedding Planner episode.
He's a queer director. He's been out for a long time.
But that's not the fun fact I wanted to share.
The fun fact I wanted to share is that he
officiated the wedding of Freddie Prince Junior and Sarah Michelle Geller. Why.

(55:59):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (56:02):
Wait, I think then they do. Does he have anything
to do with that?

Speaker 4 (56:06):
Or let me see, where As I think maybe he
directed Buffy episodes No, he didn't.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
There's something there. I don't know if it's with Freddy
or but I'm like, why I remember some sort of something.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
Oh, he was okay, keeping with the they are all
wait is Rob Marshall because he directed Chicago and he
just directed the new Little Mermaid movie. Anyways, Uh, they
are all white guys, but they're three queer directors who
started as choreographers and then became directors of movie musicals.

(56:41):
Adam Shankman, Kenny Ortega, and Rob Marshall.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
What a pipeline.

Speaker 5 (56:47):
Shout out to Kenny. I'm sorry, but he also has hits.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
He god, he really like doesn't have missus that I know, like.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
Right shots and Julie and the phantoms that got canceled
too early on that.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
So Good, So Good, Gone too soon. We're gonna be
talking about that on the Newsy's episode because that was
the first movie he ever directed. But yeah, it is
shocking to me how Kenny Ortega, like, his movies are
very rarely received well in their time. But the age
like a fine wine.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
They're all perfect, people who know and people who have taste,
you know.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
Anyways, that's I guess. Now we've talked about Adam Shankman.
But to go back to the whiteness of this movie,
it's just like it doesn't seem like there was anyone
in the room who wasn't white. To draw attention to
issues that in twenty twenty three seem very obvious and
very fixable.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yes, can we talk about the movies examination of fatness
and like how society and beauty standards perceive fatness and
like the movies handling of all of that, Yes.

Speaker 5 (58:08):
Yeah, I mean I think I think the movies handling
of fatness, aside from Tracy and Motorvel Maybell like and
how they feel about themselves, is like fatness is equitable
in this movie to like the most disgusting possible thing
you could ever be, And I find that to be

(58:31):
really annoying. But also like it's interesting because it's like,
we don't see a lot of fat people in this movie, right,
It's just Tracy and Motival, Mabel and John Travolta as
the mom. But it's like everybody everybody around them is
either average size or skinny. But yet fatness is it

(58:53):
still seemed like this like epidemic that we can't possibly
allow to what is way do people use all the
time now when they're like glorify Yeah, And I find
that to be really intriguing considering the majority of the
cast and the characters in this movie are nowhere near fat, right,
it's just the three of them, and it's still just

(59:16):
like fatness is running rampant.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Yeah. Like you said, it kind of conflates people being
prejudiced against fat people with racism.

Speaker 4 (59:29):
Yeah, yeah, which that was a big element of the
twenty sixteen discourse as well, of just like these are
not the same struggle. They're both struggles, but putting them
on the same no sense.

Speaker 5 (59:43):
Like the man Hunt for True, the man Hunt for Tracy, Sorry,
it just makes you laugh. The man Hunt for Tracy,
for the sound thing is so coded in her being
fat that like by the time that the police are
out search of her and they carry her inside in
the spray can, it's like or the hairspray can, it's
it's sort of like, oh no. Then we have the

(01:00:06):
police inside and they want to go stop the black
people from being on the stage, and the almost like
wait till commercial and it's like, why is there a
connection there? I think that it's so wild to me.
It's like, oh no, we've got a way to commercial
for the black people get off the stage, and oh,
we have to stop traicing because she's changing the minds
of Baltimore and they're they're somehow connected because she suffers too,

(01:00:29):
and it's like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
It's not right, No, it's just like so it's I
don't know, like it's almost funny because it's so I
think it's so sincerely felt that you're just like, yeah,
what do you think you're saying here? It's so confusing,
and that does also kind of ring very like Post
nine to eleven trying to say something but is made

(01:00:50):
by a whole pile of white guys and is not
really like saying what it thinks. It is kind of
stuff where it's it's just like flattening the concept of
struggle in America and there's like a prescriptive solution and
that is being allowed to be on the Corny Collins Show.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Like it's just like, no, it's very we all bleed.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Red, yes, yes, yes, yeah, very much.

Speaker 5 (01:01:14):
Like oh, guys, I don't care if you're red, green, blue, whatever,
you know, we all struggle.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
Yeah, like Clinton, yeah right. The thing that I was
most frustrated with with this movie specifically is that John
Travolta is in a fat suit that I feel like
that just like undercuts so much.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Definitely, Yeah, like it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
It just undercuts a lot because in the original Divine
plays Edna and plays like a It's I think it
is interesting that the character of Edna is adjusted between
the original movie, and also I guess from the musical
to be more introverted and be more shy. I don't
hate that decision, but that was a of us made.
But in the original Divine is fat and not like

(01:02:06):
wearing these really distracting prosthetics that I've seen people in
recent years, you know, reclaim John Travolta's performance and like,
you know whatever, if you love it, you love it.
But yeah, I think especially because fat suits on big
time celebrities. That was literally a huge topic of discussion

(01:02:28):
less than six months ago when Brendan Fraser won the
Oscar for the Whale, And like, so I feel like
that undercut any Like like the attempts and I think
some of the attempts to talk about fatness in this
movie are successful, but like the John Travolta fat suit,
I'm just like, what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Yeah, like you said, it undercuts a lot because it
is rare for a movie to have a fat character
at all, let alone a fat protagonist. It's even rarer
for a story with a fat protagonist to be about
something besides the character's size, And in this movie, like

(01:03:09):
her size plays a part in the narrative, but it's
not what the story is about. It's you know, her
goal is to be a dancer. It's not to lose
weight or to find the confidence to be a dancer
despite her size anything like that. Because another rare thing
is for a movie to portray a fat character who

(01:03:30):
is confident in herself. It's also a rare example of
a movie showing a fat character doing something physical like dancing.
A lot of movies with fat characters rely on stereotypes
of like, oh, the only thing the fat character does
is sit down and eat food.

Speaker 5 (01:03:51):
Stuff like that, and she's always alone, like like whoever
it is, they never end up with some with a
romantic partner.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Either, exactly, Like, it's rare to see a fat character
be romantically desired by another character period, especially one who
is thin and who is like very traditionally attractive, such
as someone played by Zac Efron. So you have these
things that most movies refuse to do. But then it

(01:04:18):
also turns around and again puts John Travolta in a
fat suit. It has that character Edna eats when she's upset,
people use food to convince her to stay at a party,
So it's still relying on stereotypes for that character. But
I guess I'm just saying, like, it's not all bad

(01:04:39):
with at least with Tracy, but it fumbles a lot
of other things.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
Yeah, because you don't really see her come out of
her shell or like anything remotely into the very last
scene when she goes on stage to sing. I do
think it's really interesting though, because maybe I'm wrong because
I've never seen the musical. But like Motor Belt, Maybelle
was not. She was not in the movie. Was she

(01:05:07):
in the nineteen Year She was?

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
But it's like she's a much smaller character.

Speaker 5 (01:05:11):
Yeah, Okay, So I think I think the addition of
like making a slightly bigger character made sense because then
it's like you get to see she doesn't have the
same even though her and Edna are supposed to be
like close in age, I assume she doesn't have the
same hang ups about her body. True and what it

(01:05:32):
means and why that matters as Edna does. And so
that's what I really appreciated. I started, you mentioned Caman
about how she uses food to make Edna's stay. She's like,
we got a whole feast, like I'm gonna eat. Yeah,
So like if you're like, if you want to stay
and you want to eat, that's great. But I think
I think honestly though they had to because it's Cleanlatifa,

(01:05:53):
like you can't just like she's not gonna be like,
you know, a small role in general, but I think
that one thing right that's not like that's one of
the things that I deeply enjoyed it as a movie
as well as like, even though we did not get
what I think is great characterization of the black characters
in the movie, the addition of her that that made

(01:06:13):
her a bigger character in it was.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
For the better for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:06:18):
I did like that Edna, I guess, like because yeah,
I think all the tropes that we've we've already talked
about are very present. But I did like and feel
like there was some value in like Edna seeing other
women in her life, including her own daughter, like loving
themselves and being happy and taking. I feel like it

(01:06:42):
was like realistic that it took her a while to
internalize that, and I love that, Like it's it's part
of the like very happy, wonderful ending of this movie
that she accepts herself, and it's I don't know, I
think that there's a lot of ways to get there,
but I think realizing that, like she is loved and

(01:07:02):
accepted by her own daughter, there is I guess in
this Baltimore, there are more options for her to like
wear clothes that she's comfortable in that she doesn't know exists.
There's like ways for her to ease into like a
better relationship with her own body. And I like that
that's it's like a really fun, I think fantasy thing

(01:07:25):
to like see that she like her her daughter helps
her realize that. And also it felt pretty authentic that
like Edna is judging her own daughter's body towards the
beginning of the movie and saying like, well, you shouldn't
you know, you shouldn't audition for Corney Collins because they're

(01:07:45):
going to laugh at your body. In like a way
that it's like she's trying to protect her from what
she's afraid of happening to her right, it's for a
movie that like doesn't do complex like super well, I've
like this that relationship really, I mean it like definitely
for me where I feel like that. There's a lot
of parents, but I mean I think very often mothers

(01:08:10):
who project the body issues that they have with themselves
onto their kids in presenting it like I'm just trying
to help you, and I like that. Tracy rejects that
and instead of I mean, there is definitely a version
of this story that isn't as fun where she's like, no,
fuck you, mom, like but because Tracy is Tracy, she's like, no,

(01:08:33):
I feel like I'm good with myself and like I
want that for you too, and let's sing a song
about it.

Speaker 5 (01:08:39):
You know what else I appreciate, which I don't know
if when you touched on earlier, it's like Wilber loved
her the entire time, the entire time, but like even
that wasn't enough. It's like she had to go and
figure out for herself how to love herself. She couldn't
put her hopes and dreams and whatever. I'm like, I
got your dad love me, so it's lit. She was

(01:09:02):
just like, yeah, you love me whatever, But like I'm
not comfortable with me until she was yeah, which I
appreciate because oftentimes it's like, especially with marginalized people in general,
it's like, oh, if you can get one person to love,
you hold on to that person and never let them
go because that's the only option you got. Whereas they've
been happily married. But she was still unhappy, and so

(01:09:24):
it's showcased that like, oh no, I need to find
it within myself and not place it in another person.
Which is also a fantastic message for Tracy because even
though she was like, I'm trying to get in Laney's pants, okay,
she still didn't. She was like, I try to get
dick down.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
She is not shy about saying it too. Her song
is so horny about him.

Speaker 5 (01:09:47):
It's so horny, especially when she says like she won't
go all the way, but she'll go pretty far.

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
Oh I love suck up.

Speaker 5 (01:09:55):
So like I think it's even though she's very horny
for Link, it's like she did not base her happiness
on whether or not they got together. She based her
happiness on being able to achieve her a dream of
being a dancer.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Yes, yeah, I and the same kind of goes for
I don't know, like where. There's a lot of like
women perceiving other women's bodies in this movie, which I
always think is interesting. It's really easy to fuck up,
but I just want to say it's interesting because you
also get like in the Wilbur and Edna story, miss

(01:10:34):
Baltimore crabs making the assumption that Wilbert is not attracted
to his own to his wife.

Speaker 5 (01:10:41):
His wife his wife.

Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
And being wrong about that, and being like made a
fool of for making that assumption.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Yeah, she goes in and is like, I'm Michelle Pfeiffer,
Christopher Watkins's gonna want to smooch on me.

Speaker 4 (01:11:00):
And You're like, well, she does have a point. She
is Michelle fIF she is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
But he's like, no, I would rather just sell you awesome,
like whoop exactly such a due I might rubber chicken,
et cetera.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
I love Christopher Walking joke shop owner. Yeah, now should
he let us know what happened on that boat with
Natalie Woods show? And I have to bring it up
every time we cover a Christopher Walking movie.

Speaker 5 (01:11:26):
I would like to also know. Also, one of the
funniest lies in the movie is when Britney snow calls
u Na and she and she's like, She's like, who
is this And she's like Mike. He's like Mike, who
I don't know Mike. And then and then she's like
where she said, where is Tracy? And she goes, I

(01:11:48):
don't know, she's no. I don't know who she was
asking for. Maybe it was her mom. She was like,
I don't know. He's with those, he's with that, He's
with that great white wheel and those blue grow It
is like the way that I say that is like
in my daily life, at least once every every two weeks,

(01:12:10):
just randomly, I'll be like, he's with those, He's with
that great white all those new gros. But to myself
out loud, I don't know. It's definitely mean.

Speaker 4 (01:12:20):
It's so plays a good village. She does, she does,
she does, Where is she? Where is she at now?

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
What she is she doing?

Speaker 5 (01:12:28):
I think she just finished an indie movie or TV
show or something.

Speaker 4 (01:12:33):
She's also in the Pacifier. Adam Shankman loves her.

Speaker 5 (01:12:36):
Who knew the Pacifier is an American classic?

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Shout It's true, It's true. Oh yeah, it's the Vin
Diesel babysitter in a movie. Not the Rock and babisit
a movie that's the truth fairy, the Truth Fairy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Yes, And then isn't there a John Cena babysitter movie? Also?
Or like he's a fireman and then some kids show
up at the firehouse.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
Why do people love in a beefcake babysits in a movie?

Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
Yeah, I mean he technically babysits Vin Diesel's kid in
The New Fast.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
You're not an American classes perfect film. No notes. Speaking
of actors, Nicki Blonsky, as we've said, does an incredible
job in this movie, but despite that, she never became
a big star, which is just indicative of the way

(01:13:32):
Hollywood tends to treat fat actors because it just refuses
to cast fat actors in most roles. And I was
looking at her I AMDB, and one of the things
that she's known for aside from this movie is she
is a lead or one of the leads in a
show called Huge.

Speaker 4 (01:13:54):
So I wanted to Yeah, I wanted to bring that
up because it because I was on the Nicky Blonsky train.
It sounds like you were as well. And I remember
most of her roles after Harrispray, a movie that she
plays Tracy Turnblad a like woman who is comfortable in
her own skin, and then her her roles after that

(01:14:18):
for the next couple of years were mostly defined by
what she looked like and also around shame, because I
remember Huge. I also remember, if I'm remembering correctly, Queen Sized,
which was a Lifetime movie about a fat prom queen,
and so there there was definitely like it seemed like

(01:14:38):
very and I honestly didn't did you did you ever
watch Huge? I never watched it? I did, Yeah, what
did you think?

Speaker 5 (01:14:46):
It was basically like a TV show about a fat
camp and her character struggled so much with like feeling
worth worthy, and she was like desperate to lose weight,
and there was this really melo dramatic storyline about how

(01:15:06):
some of the campers had like eating disorders and like
they were desperate to lose weight. And I just remember
being like, this is such a far cry from Hairspurd
and like that happens. But I truly believed that, like
all of her missteps as an adult human being aside,
Nikki Bonski really is a casualty of the time, because

(01:15:28):
that movie should have catapulted her. Yeah, like it really
should have shot her to an actual trajectory and now
people make fun of her because she had that racist incident.
I think it was got airport.

Speaker 4 (01:15:40):
Yes, So that was the other thing I remembered that
I was like, Okay, I yeah, I totally agreed Kia,
that she was absolutely a casualty of attitudes towards fat
women when like, because we just like grew up at
such a horrible time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Yeah, it was wrong.

Speaker 4 (01:15:56):
But there was also because I when I was prepping
for this, I was like, oh, I remember that it
was like she and her family got into like a
racist fight at the airport in like Turks and Caicos.

Speaker 5 (01:16:11):
It was like it was deeply racist tirade. Her and
her mom went on to these other black people and
everybody was just like, wait, what hairspray?

Speaker 4 (01:16:21):
Right, what's happening the girl who started the movie about
curing racism? Like it just because and it was also
the woman or it was like two families, but like
it was America's next top model contestant that they got
into a fight with. It really sent me back to

(01:16:42):
and and of course, like I was going back through
the like tabloid coverage of this from two thousand and
eight and it is pretty pro Blonski in terms of, like, well,
this was just being blown out of proportion. A lot
of the context of what prompted the fight is not
include and so it is like, I mean, there's certainly

(01:17:04):
like more shades of gray here. But yeah, as far
as her her career went, it was mostly roles that
were defined by her body and then not as much.
I was kind of interested because she she didn't do
interviews for a long time, and I have a guess
as to why. But when she did start doing interviews

(01:17:27):
again is in twenty twenty, because she came out but
never really spoke to the kinds of role she was offered,
So I don't have her opinion of that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
But yeah, yeah, she.

Speaker 5 (01:17:39):
Has a cameo too. I booked a cameo for my
friend because she likes this baseball player guy, and I
saw her on a little thing. She has, like cameo
interesting and she wishes people like happy graduations from Nikki
Bonski of hairs gray, like she's you know, that's her rug,
which is great. Oh my god, I realized it's crigma

(01:18:01):
that I'm out here talking about a straight couple.

Speaker 4 (01:18:06):
How dare you?

Speaker 5 (01:18:07):
I was like, Oh my god, guys, I am a
I am a distress. So bisexuals everywhere. But in my defense,
I was like, you know what, they would have a
third occasionally, they would have a third.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
Yeah. Corney Collins is polyamorous, and in addition to having
a secret romance with Maybell, he also kisses who's another
adult man in the movie besides christ Maybe he kisses
Christopher Walking.

Speaker 4 (01:18:34):
I don't know, well, does I feel like Christopher Walking?
Like Wilbur's vibe is like open to a third for sure.

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
Yeah. Yeah, Wilbur's vibe is very like down the clown,
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:18:44):
I mean, it's it's literally a damn job. He's like, yeah,
let's have a third and let's all fucking the joke shop.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Let's let's let's get weird, kinky.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
Yeah. Can we talk about John Travolta again, but in
a different context. Yes, So a man playing a female character.
So obviously John Travolta plays Tracy's mom Edna. The precedent
had been set for a man or mask presenting person

(01:19:24):
to play this character in the eighty eight John Waters version, because,
as we said, Divine plays that character. Divine was a
drag queen and a queer person, and not that you
have to be those things to play a gender bending
role like this, but it kind of makes more sense that,

(01:19:48):
you know Divine was cast in that role, and it
kind of begs the question, why would they have not
cast another, you know, iconic drag performer to play Edna
in this movie, because to my knowledge, which John Travalta
is not a drag performer. Unless I'm missing something, I
don't know who like originated the role in the Broadway musical.

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
I was just trying to find out.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
In any case, I guess I have complicated feelings on
like I don't mind gender bending roles like this. I
don't mind when like a mask person plays a femme
or vice versa, or you know, someone elsewhere on the
gender spectrum plays any kind of role. I think, honestly,

(01:20:37):
it would be cool if there was more gender bending
casting in media, But there's very little parody because I
can think of several examples of men playing characters who
are women. You've got your like Louis Anderson in Baskets.
You've got Tyler Perry as Media. You've got Martin Lawrence

(01:20:58):
as Big Mama This House. You've got Eddie Murphy and
several of his like whatever, clunk, clump, what are they?
What anymumps? And I think other of his movies as well,
Norbit Yes, yes, And a lot of those actors are
also in fat suits, which again we discussed is a big.

Speaker 4 (01:21:22):
Harvey Fierstein played Edna on Broadway and they okay, and
one of Tony Baby Interesting. Yeah, I have I have
also complicated feelings towards that, but I feel like I
don't know, I think I sort of landed on like
I don't know, I don't know like it. I feel
like the part is so it's such a divine part

(01:21:46):
that whatever not gonna argue the thing divine did and
hurt and in her entire life great. And I'm not
opposed to actors in drag at all. I mean, I
think it just has to do with how well written
is the character, is character written as a punchline or
I think it reminds me of this was in the

(01:22:06):
last ten years. Keenan Thompson I said that he was
no longer going to play drag roles on SNL because
he felt that it was just because they hadn't cast
a black woman on the show and that they were
you know, using him in drag as an excuse like
not to cast a black woman, which is a great
reason not to do drag for sure. But I think

(01:22:27):
I don't know. I sort of landed on like I'm
more upset about the fat suit. I think the fat
suit fucking sucks. Yeah, And also I guess I just
worry about like the slippery kind of slope that is
presented there, because you know, John Travolta's sexuality has been
speculated about for decades and it's none of our business,

(01:22:49):
like how he identifies, and you know, it is our
business that he's so high up in scientology, but as
far as how he identifies, who gives a shit, I
don't know. I mean, I guess my answer is I
don't know. It doesn't bother me that Edna is a
historically a drag role, because there are a ton of

(01:23:12):
non drag rolls in this movie. It's not like the
Keenan Thompson issue where it was like, well, we're gonna
put a man in drag specifically because we don't want
women around like it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
Right, But a lot of movies would rather have a
cis man in a fat suit play a fat woman
than actually cast a fat woman.

Speaker 4 (01:23:36):
Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
I think for me, I'm sort of in the same
boat as Jamie where it's like I feel like, and again,
not give a man too much, but I feel like
John Travolta played and with a sense of like sincerity
and it wasn't like she was the butt of a
joke or that he didn't take it seriously. And I

(01:23:58):
think that's what makes it better because I've always felt like,
even in interviews that I watched, and I remember watching
them on Oprah specifically about how he was just like,
I didn't I was never going to play this like
a joke because it's not a joke to me. Edna
is a real person to me, and I'm going to
treat her with the respect he deserves or something like that.

(01:24:19):
I'm paraphrasing, but I think because I knew going into
the movie that he seemed to take it seriously and
didn't feel like he was just you know, pretending to
be a woman putting on a show, I felt like
I was like, oh, okay, I'm okay with him being
Edna because at least he's not making her the butt

(01:24:40):
of any jokes, Whereas like a lot of times and
again I respect them as well, but like Eddie Murphy
and Martin Lawrence and you know, all these other people,
it's like the joke is that they're a man in
a fat suit.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Exactly, I mean pretending to be a woman, and like
missus doubtfire.

Speaker 5 (01:24:59):
Yeah, that's why it's like, that's the joke, that's the bit,
Whereas like in this movie, it's not inherently a bit.
It's just this is the thing we understand and know.
But it's not like, oh, guys, haha, laugh at me
because I'm John Travolta playing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
A woman, right, because that is the the joke. A
lot of the time, it's there's this kind of idea
that a man playing a woman is inherently funny, and
like part of the comedy of a lot of these
movies I mentioned is that there's a man playing a

(01:25:36):
woman because it's funny when a man presents as feminine,
like he's kind of being emasculated because he's wearing a dress,
And isn't that hilarious, right?

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
I think, yeah, Kia, you're like spot on that it
like has everything to do with the actor's intent because
you can feel, you know, in a lot of the
roles we just discussed that, like fat women and men
are the butt of the joke very very very much.
So I think that, I mean, I think that the
fat suit, the use of the fat suit like really

(01:26:08):
complicated stuff, and I would say it's dated, except it
still happens. But as far as as far as like
John travolt does intent, that's really great to know, and
I feel like that does come through in the performance.
I think that the only thing that really sticks with
me outside of the use of the fat suit is
that Edna is the only fat character I think who

(01:26:32):
who is being written to fall prey to the tropes
of like emotional eating and like always hungry, and that's
how you keep her in a room. I don't think
that the other fat women in the in the movie
are really treated that way. So I feel like there's
notes of that, but it's definitely not I think the

(01:26:53):
worst incarnation of it, and I do, I mean it is.
It does make me feel a lot better that like
in the in the press junk that like John Travolta
is like, no, I'm not trying to make fun of anybody,
and I do feel like that comes through in the performance,
And yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
Know also Worth mentioning that every time a man is
cast to play a woman, it takes a role and
a paycheck away from a woman. But but if there
was more parody and you got to see like femmes
playing mask characters more often, because that rarely happens in movies. Again,

(01:27:34):
like the lack of parody is kind of noticeable. But
I don't know, just I thought Worth mentioning, Yeah, I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:27:41):
I think ultimately it doesn't bother me that Edna is
historically a drag role. No, yeah, I think, And honestly
in my notes, I was like I got stuck in
my head about it, and then I was just like,
it's it's John Water's story of course, right, there's going
to be people in drag. It's John Waters. That just
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
Yeah, does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about?

Speaker 4 (01:28:09):
I was just glad that I just learned Harvey Firestein
played dead. No, no that way. It was like I
want to listen to the fire Steam cut. And also like,
you know, like he's really famous. Why did why didn't
he get to be? I mean I know that like
John Travolta, I remember the marketing for this movie and
that was like the headline. Yeah he was, yeah, in

(01:28:30):
a movie full of famous people, but I was like Harvey.
I would loved to see Harvey Firesteam played in this version.

Speaker 5 (01:28:38):
Yeah. I remember they Press junk They did a lot
of like, come see this movie because John Trewood was
in it, and also Queen Latifa and I they paired
them together, you know, in the little Press Junkers. It
was always those two and then randomly Zacha frown by
himself a couple of times, then him with like Nikki Bronski.
I feel like only really did in every use with

(01:29:01):
But I think it's because they were like introducing her
like this was our first big thing. But it was
very much like, guys, come see this movie. John Tavoltz
is in it, and so is Kreeamatifa. If you don't come,
we hate you. This is this is the draw, This
is the thing. But yeah, I think I don't know.
I guess. If there's one other thing that I would say,

(01:29:22):
it's that James Marsden should be cast in rom Comes
where he gets the girl. There should also fiction I'm
the really gonna let it go? There should also these
fans fiction of Corney Tallens and Monmouth Maybell and if
you're not, if you don't write it, you're racist. And
then also it's just like this is a lesson in

(01:29:47):
what it takes to like have chemistry with the people
that you cast like, we don't focus on chemistry enough anymore.
Please bring back chemistry reads, that's what it is. Yeah,
bring it back. We need it desperately.

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
There has just been just.

Speaker 5 (01:30:02):
Because they're heart doesn't mean that they should actually work together.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Exactly. See Matthew McConaughey in every rom com he's ever
been kept.

Speaker 4 (01:30:12):
Okay, see watch already that's Adam Shankman. Adam Shankman decided
he and Jalo had chemistry, and I trust him, and
I think they did.

Speaker 5 (01:30:24):
And I think they did too. I think I think
he had more chemistry with her than he did with
Jennifer Garner in that one movie about the ex girlfriend's
past that he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:30:35):
Have chemistry with any women.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
Kitlyn is a McCaughey detractor.

Speaker 5 (01:30:40):
They had chemrasry. You don't think they had chemistry.

Speaker 4 (01:30:43):
I think Kate Hudson can have chemistry with a wall.

Speaker 5 (01:30:47):
You know, he didn't have chemistry with a failure to launch.

Speaker 4 (01:30:53):
Oh, Sir Justica Parker Parker, they did not have chemistry. Yeah,
that didn't work. I didn't, especially when you grow up
watching Sarah Jessica Parker have chemistry with so many different people.

Speaker 5 (01:31:02):
You're like, literally so many different people.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
Yeah, okay, I'm only hearing examples of people whom Matthew
McConaughey doesn't have chemistry with. My point has been proven
as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, that's all I think.

Speaker 4 (01:31:16):
That's that's all I have to say. Yes, but does
this movie past the Bechdel test?

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
It does a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:31:24):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
Tracy and Penny talk about dancing. Tracy and Edna talk
about how it's the sixties and times are changing. Tracy
and Velma talk about how Velma is racist, Velma and
Amber talk lots of different combinations.

Speaker 4 (01:31:44):
It's true, And I like, Oh, last thing I'll shout
out is there is like what would typically be coded
as a makeover scene in this movie, but it's just
Edna getting closed that she likes more.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Oh yeah, it didn't even register for me, honestly.

Speaker 5 (01:31:59):
And I like, there was nothing that was like, ooh,
let me make a sinner exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:32:03):
She's like, oh, there is like a store for me,
and now I can have a matching sequin outfit with
my daughter, which incredible.

Speaker 5 (01:32:15):
I also really like Big Blonde and Beautiful. Yes, I
think that's a very good song that has nothing to
do with a man and just being like, yeah, I
like to eat dopey STANDI I'm a grown girl, Like
I'm gonna eat this food on his table, and you
know I like that because I'm always hungry.

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
And now it's time for our nipple scale, our perfect metric,
in which we rate the movie on a scale of
zero to five nipples based on examining it through an
intersectional feminist lens. I would say, I'll start by saying
that I completely hear your point, Kia, about wanting to

(01:33:00):
see something that you can escape into a story that
deals with racism and has this happy, kind of fairy tale,
escapist ending that doesn't remind you of, you know, the
horrors and trauma of real life racism. I guess I

(01:33:21):
would just like to see more versions of that as
told through a black perspective that doesn't do the various
fumbles that this movie does, and that actually characterizes the
black characters and gives them interior lives.

Speaker 4 (01:33:41):
Yeah, and I think that there's ways for media to
be escapist and inclusive, like yeah, for sure, and it's yeah,
and it's all behind the scenes stuff, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
And then between that and the movie's perspective on fatness,
which in some ways is rather progressive in terms of
it showcasing a fat character who is confident and who
loves herself and her body, which is something that's so
rare to see in popular media. But then it turns

(01:34:14):
around and puts John Travolta in a fat suit and
relies on reductive stereotypes for the Edna character. So I
don't know. Oh, how many nipples?

Speaker 5 (01:34:26):
Is it? Like?

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
Two? Is it three?

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
Bruce Flanche also played Edna.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
Oh that's great.

Speaker 4 (01:34:36):
Sorry, still on this article.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
Okay, nipples, I'm gonna give it. It feels like cheating
to give it two and a half, but I think
that's where I'm gonna land because it's heart is in
the right place. It's trying to do something and say something.
It's not doing it perfectly, but the attempt is clear.

(01:35:03):
So I'll give it two and a half nipples. I'll
give one to Taylor Parks, who plays I knows. I'll
give one to Queen Latifah and I'll give my half
nipple to Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman, and Batman returns.

Speaker 4 (01:35:23):
I'm gonna go three for nostalgia purposes, I agree, Like
I think that the again, it's just like this movie
slash production. It's more understandable to me that these issues
are present in the nineteen eighty eight version because John
Waters was always working on such shoe string budgets. But

(01:35:44):
by the time it's like a huge This was a
huge budget movie. They had John Travolta money, So yes,
you did have the money, but not the foresight to
have black creatives involved behind the camera, which is I'm
a say we hear about all the time, but I think,
especially in a story that explicitly deals with race at

(01:36:04):
a very specific place in time, you know, it's ridiculous.
I hate the Fat Suit, Zero out of Town on
the Fat Suit, but I think that this movie is
so campy in so many ways. I this movie is
so queer coded in so many ways. For some reason,
I'm like Miss Baltimore Crabs is a queer song. I

(01:36:28):
can't really tell you why that is, but I know
that it's true. Like it's just a very gay movie,
and that's part of why I love it so much.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
The font of the title on the poster is a rainbow.

Speaker 4 (01:36:42):
It's iconic. I mean, it's like there's you know, queer
representation in this movie, even though none of all of
the characters are straight, is at an all time high.
And I'm like, not even joking, goodness, it's like, it's

(01:37:02):
a blast. And I agree that like for all of
its issues, it's not nothing that its heart is in
the right place. And even though it fumbles, you know,
we've talked about it at length at this point, it
certainly fumbles a lot, but this movie is not mean spirited,
which I think means something and it's Yeah, So I'm

(01:37:23):
gonna go three nipples. I think I'm gonna give one
to Harvey Fairestein because I'm now really invested in that.
Of course, I'm going to give one to Taylor Parks,
who is one of the great pop song composers of
our generation. She's a legend. I love her so much,
and I will give the last one. Ooh, I'm gonna

(01:37:45):
split the last one, and I'm going to split it
between Elijah Kelly and James Morriston, who in spite of
the Zach Effron of it all, were my top two
crushes in this movie.

Speaker 5 (01:37:59):
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go four out of five.
Listen with its issues, Yeah, even with it's very greatant
and very obvious issues, this movie is very important to
me as a virgo. And I think, like despite the

(01:38:22):
sort of white savior miss and the fat suit and
the like inability to just have fat people be fat
people without being en day for all of their characters,
I would say four out of five because it just
for nostalgia reasons, it just really means the world to me,
and I think that it's a perfectly casted movie. And

(01:38:45):
so my first nipple is going to clean the Tifa
because she's clean Latifa, of course, and she's the perfect
motibile bebel. And my second nipple is going to the
relationship more about Lobo, because they're together, they go together
real bad, like Carisia said.

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
Corny Collins, more like Horny Collins.

Speaker 5 (01:39:08):
Yes, exactly. And then my third nipple of course goes
to honestly Amanda Vines because even though she didn't sing,
she was perfectly petty in this movie. And like I think,
I think about the live adaption of Harris Pray that
Arianna Grande was tenny and she can sing.

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
But I think doesn't feel like the right test.

Speaker 5 (01:39:32):
Amanda Vines acting as Penny. Yeah, yeah, Amanda Vines acting
as Penny was a one day one. And then yeah,
my final nipple goes to I'm stealing your answer, Jamie.
They have to Elijah Carry and the other half to
James Marsden because I love them both. They're both fine,
and I love an attractive man. I forget that they're possible,

(01:39:55):
but they are in this movie. And yeah, just you know,
shout out to the queer codedness as well. Yes, because
again it's Pride Month, and as your local buye, I
will say that I find almost every woman in this
movie just as attractive as almost every man.

Speaker 4 (01:40:16):
It's pretty unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, I oh, what was I
gonna say?

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:40:20):
I didn't know Ariana had played that part. And it
just I'm an arian orientator, That's what I am.

Speaker 5 (01:40:29):
Yeah, me too. I like our music.

Speaker 4 (01:40:31):
I just think like Taylor Parks writes a lot of it.

Speaker 5 (01:40:33):
Yeah, I just think it was like glaring to me
what the difference is between the two. Like Amanda Vines
cannot say, Ariana grind they can sing, but Amanda Vines
was given as tunny. I fully believe, yeah, she understood
the vibes of who Penny needed to.

Speaker 4 (01:40:49):
Be ultimately in movie musicals, It's like, I would much
prefer someone could act than sing. It would be great
if they could do both. But I also, oh, that
was what I was gonna say, because arian is in
the Wicked, the live action Wicked movie, and I'm just
a little worried because I'm a fan. But the girl
can't act. It hasn't been able to since she was

(01:41:11):
a child. It's concerning.

Speaker 5 (01:41:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, like like you, Jamie.

Speaker 4 (01:41:18):
I'm very worried Cynthia Arrivo cannot carry this movie on
her back.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
It's not fair.

Speaker 5 (01:41:22):
It's just it's gonna be interesting to see because it's
like two movies now they're splitting it so.

Speaker 4 (01:41:28):
Which also is like what huh, We're going to sing
defying gravity and then make me come back a year later,
Like what are you talking about? Yeah, the theater kids
are gonna be fairal I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:41):
Well, thank you so much, Kia for joining us. It
is always a damn delight to have you come back
truly any time for any movie. Where can people follow you,
check out your work, order your book, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (01:41:58):
Yeah, so I'm over on the hell site called Twitter
at kok Ah Underscore Maria m A l I. It's
the same on TikTok and Instagram. Even though I am
bad at TikTok, I'm there, and then you can find
me on Facebook at the Kia Brown and my website

(01:42:18):
is Kia Brown dot com. And also again, if you
like queer y a romance stories where they don't do
drugs in a seven eleven parking lot, you can read
my book, The Secrets of My Promise, and I think
you'll love it, so please buy it because I promise
it's good.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
So that's a secret summer promise. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:42:38):
Yeah, I bought it and it's in the other I
bought it at book People in Austin, Texas.

Speaker 5 (01:42:45):
You did bring it with you so that if I
see you, I can sign it.

Speaker 4 (01:42:48):
Okay, Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
Hell yeah. You can follow us on the hell website Twitter,
as well as the other hell website, Instagram or app
at whatever. I'm one hundred years old and you can
follow us there. At Bechtel Cast, you can subscribe to
our Matreon where we did do Zach Marchron slash march

(01:43:15):
Efron slash zach Efron March probably observed in July October,
so we did march Efron and many many other episodes
which you can have access to for five dollars a month,
and that's at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast.

Speaker 4 (01:43:37):
And you can get our merch over at teapublic dot
com slash Thepechtyl Cast if you're feeling so inclined. And
with that, oh look the garbage truck is passing five.
We've got to get to school. Here we go, Bye
bye bye