Hollywood Shuffle with Sam Ike

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and
welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante,
my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast

(00:24):
in which we examine movies. Wow. Okay, so to keep going, Um,
we examine movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechtel test as a jumping off point. I know what
that is, okay, Jamie, I'm going to hand it off

(00:47):
to you. Wow. We'd literally sound like we're like on
PBS and we're like doing a fundraiser. Um, yeah, I will,
I will gladly pick up the mantel here, Thank you
so much. The Betel test is media metric invented by
queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test,
that requires that two for our purposes are a little

(01:08):
our little flourished, a little spin on it, our little
take on it. Everyone needs a little take on it.
Here's ours our version of the Bechdel test requires that
two people of a marginalized gender with names by the way,
speak to each other about something other than a man
for two lines of dialogue. That's our little take on it. Wow. Wow,

(01:31):
most movies don't do it a lot simply don't, or
or this increasing trend that drives me, you know, just
into the ground like a little screw driver, is they
do pass the Bechdel test, but they still hate women.
Like now, it's like the whole thing where every director.
I feel like most directors have some functioning knowledge of

(01:52):
the Bechdel Test at this point, except for Sofia coppola um,
which is weird because her movies usually pass, but like
she didn't know what it was. But now I feel
like a lot of like misogynist directors do know what
the Bechtel test is, make sure their movie passes it,
but they're like, oh, but still, we're just gonna like
brutalize every woman that's on screen. But did she ask

(02:14):
for a like a pudding from her daughter? So it passes?
Therefore a feminist film, right, hate it? Hate it? But
you know who was the actor? I want to say
it was Diane Lane, But before I I'm going to
confirm this. Are you about to just fully canceled Diane

(02:38):
Lane live on the show My Mom Loves Under the
Tuscan Son. You've got to be careful. Oh my gosh, Wow,
we should like Jill on the podcast to talk about
under the Tuscan. I really can't think of someone more
qualified to talk about under the Tuscan Son. Oh okay,
let me just google this and then and if I'm wrong,
I'll cut this out and if I'm right, I'll say

(02:59):
it is it so thing nice about Diane Lane, or
so it's not? Okay, I'm right, Okay, here's what it is,
Diane Lane. She accidentally called the Bechtel test the rectal test.
This happened a couple of years ago. She was talking
about the Bechtel test and I think generally knew what

(03:19):
it was, but didn't know what the what the name
of it was, and she called it the Rectel test.
Sometimes boomers really show up for you in a way
that you didn't expect. Oh, Diane, you know an effort
was made, and I respect that. Oh. Knights and Road Dancey.

(03:39):
People loved Knights and Road Danthy like she's been in
every Mom movie for the past thirty years? Was that
a Nicholas Sparks adaptation? It was? I know that she
Fox with d gearing it. Yes, it is a Nicholas
Sparks but yes, wow, Richard Gear and Diane Lane funk
a lot in movies. This doesn't pass the Bechtel test well,

(04:00):
or nor does it pass the Rectel test. So here's okay,
here's what happened. Diane Lane was doing an interview with
Fanity Fair. She was talking about House of Cards. She's
she says, oh, but the show doesn't pass the Recteal test. Right?
Am I saying that? Right? The fact that it was
for House of Cards makes it ten times more cursed.

(04:22):
On top of that, Oh my god, what she good
for her? Yes? Should we talk about today's movie? Yes,
I'm so excited. So our guest today a returning guest,
a friend of the show. He's a comedian. You remember
him from our Men in Black episode. It's sam Ike back.

(04:51):
Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. So we're
delighted to have you. I love Diane Lane. Oh really, wait,
what's your favorite Diane Lee performance? I would go unfaithful
or under the skin soun right? Yeah, Yeah, that's she's
fucking Richard gear And that one. She's Richard Garan that

(05:12):
one too. Yeah. Yeah, she's sucking a lot in that movie. Yeah,
she's fantastic in it. Um she I mean, I don't
know if there's a bad there There are movies where
Diane Lane is in it and it's not good. But
I don't know if there's a bad Diane Lane movie. Okay,
sure I do. I feel like generally her starring vehicles

(05:33):
are either really wholesome or like aggressively horny. Yeah. Under
the Top Skin Sun is like the best mixture of
Unfaithful and Knights and will Dante. It's like the It's
the ben Diagram of the Like, what is it that purple?
It's the it's like the Yeah, it's like the Georgia

(05:55):
of Diane Lane. Oh my god, Okay, I feel I
feel a Patreon theme coming on. It turns out there's
a lot to say about Diane Lane, more than I realized.
Diane December. Maybe, Yeah, what if we were like, we're
not covering not Halloween like a holiday movies this year,

(06:16):
We're covering Diane Lane movies. Hey, we're going to run
out of holiday movies. Eventually, So we're gonna have to
pivot to some howday hope. So, but as long as
Vanessa Hudgens keeps, you know, appearing in front of a
green screen, they're still gonna be holiday movies. Yeah. Yeah,
holiday movies and never going away. They're never going away.

(06:37):
That's one genre. It's like, I think it's like holiday
movies and horror movies, those two are never going to
go away. I'm fine with it. I'm like, you know what,
They're always going to be mostly bad and I'm usually
going to watch them. Yeah, and you really need you
need just one location, you know what I mean, as
long as you got a place where you can put
a fucking tree and somewhere somewhere where you can like

(07:03):
you need the woods, right, you need somewhere where you
can kill someone in a remote place for a horror movie.
And then you need a place where you can have
a Christmas tree and you can do a Christmas movie.
It's like a pretty COVID safety friendly genre. Yeah. Oh,
one of the best genres are cold That's like, what

(07:23):
are real? That's so depressive. So it's like we were
talking about this on the on the Patreon A couple
of during December where it was some some of the
like low rent holiday movies I watched this year. You
can tell they were shot with COVID restrictions because they'll
be like like, there will be scenes that take place
adjacent to a party, but you never see the party

(07:45):
because there's no party like and then you can hear
like party dot you know, MP three kind of playing
in the background, but it's just two people in a
room because it's not safe to have anyone else there.
What a time to be alive. Happy belated birthday, Diane Lane.
She just heard this week. Oh wow, incredible Happy Birthday

(08:09):
Diane Lane podcast. Now, so let's talk about today's actual movie,
which does not start Diane Lane, doesn't It is the
movie Hollywood Shuffle. Sam tell us about your relationship with
this movie. UM, yeah, okay, so I'm pretty sure it
came out the year I was born. And yeah, it

(08:34):
starts Robert Townsend, who's one of my like childhood idols
kena Everybody AND's co wrote it with um, another one
of my childhood idols, And it is one of the
to me personally, it's one of the funniest movies ever made. UM.
It's sketches all linked towards this actor named Bobby Taylor

(08:55):
and his triumphs and struggles of trying to be a
black actor in Hollywood. And it's, um, it's I saw
it when I was I don't know, probably in high school,
and just because I like I knew I would, I
loved in Living Color A Scary movie was like the
funniest thing I've ever seen. At that point, I was like,

(09:15):
I don't know, fifteen or whatever, and um, and then
I saw this movie and I just I've I've watched
it so many times. It's definitely definitely one of the
most we watched comedies for me personally. Yeah, I just
absolutely love it. It's it's it's just one of those
movies that like every joke is just like so it's

(09:35):
so quotable. And it's also just one of those things
where it's like I didn't have that many, like all
black films that were this funny, you know, there weren't
that many black comedies, and this one is just like
it's amazing. And it's also the other thing is like
how hard it was for Robert Town's to make this
movie that and and the whole point of it being

(09:58):
so inspiring. It is one of the like I am
a mostly cynical person when it comes to those things
and films, but like, it is one of those films
that actually did that for me. It's one of the
few movies that I actually feel like, I don't know,
I hope I guess when you know, Like, yeah, I
don't Was that was that too long? We can cut

(10:21):
no more? I was beautiful. I was waiting for you
guys to be like, oh, now we gotta go to
an ad. Uh No, that's great. Um, Jamie, what's your

(10:42):
relationship in history with this movie? I've never seen this
movie before. I know, I knew of Robert Townsend because
I used to watch reruns of The Parenthood when I
was little, So that was primarily how I knew who
he was was via Parenthood uh reruns. But I I

(11:02):
didn't honestly know that much about like what his background was.
And this movie is so fucking good, Like I'm disappointed
in myself. I haven't seen it sooner, and it was
so much fun. It's so like the story behind it
was really cool, and I feel like, um, you know,
if you haven't seen this movie, you should stop the

(11:23):
podcast and watch it now. It's on Pluto TV. You
have no excuse not to watch it. I watched it
on Canopy with my library card or not? Is it
Canopy or Hoopla? Maybe I think it was on Hoopla.
You've read a book that would that would be better
than Pluto TV because it just we were talking about
this off my Pluto TV is such a cursed application.

(11:45):
What was your experience with this movie, Kaitlin. I saw
it in college as a part of where I did
go not once, but twice. I of course hate to
bring this up, but in my undergrad education, I was
taking like a film study. These are a film history class,
and they were just kind of running through the whole
like American film history, and this got shown, I think

(12:10):
as a movie because we there was like a section
on black exploitation films, and then I think this movie
got shown to us because it was like, and here's
a response to like the black exploitation movement. So I
saw it then and I remember thinking it was super
funny and just like really poignant. But I hadn't watched

(12:31):
it since then, so I was excited to revisit it,
and I think there's a lot to talk about and
I'm excited there was, but there's I usually like I
don't know, sometimes when there are sketches and movies, I
get turned off. But it works so perfectly in this movie,
Like it's so and all the sketches are so funny,
like yeah, yeah, And it's one of those things where

(12:55):
it's like, it's interesting now watching it because like every
aspect of Hollywood Shuffle was kind of like integrated in
different mediums where there wouldn't be a movie like this anymore.
Like there's a podcast about these subjects. There's more sketches
on YouTube of this, Like every part of it is
like broken out in a different way now where Uh,

(13:17):
It's just it's such an interesting time capsule and it's
also so fascinating how much of it holds up, you know. Yeah,
and not to say there are parts of it that
don't hold up there, hold on, we'll talk about them.
I had to. But yeah, it was I love. I mean,

(13:39):
it was like I kind of wish I like I
had watched this in film school because it literally is
like a mini film history, like the funniest version of it.
For sure. Should I do the recap, let's do it.
We'll go from there. Okay, So we open on Bobby Taylor,

(13:59):
who who was played by Robert Townsend, who directed, produced,
and co wrote this movie. Oh to like a quadruple threat.
Bobby is an actor who is practicing for an upcoming
movie audition, and the role he is auditioning for is
Jimmy who It's a little vague exactly who Jimmy is,

(14:22):
but he's like a gang leader or like a pimp
or something along those lines. I'm sorry, something so funny
about listening to you describe that we opened. We opened
on Jimmy. He made to be a pimper or dealer.

(14:42):
He's some kind of scally wag, becomes slightly British, he's
some sort of scally waging on it. I just love
how you so fascinated by who is Jimmy? What is this?
What is this story? Fine? Jimmy. We know that he

(15:14):
needs revenge, That's what we know that, right, Yeah, Jimmy
needs to revenge. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't need
but like when we now, I kind of want to
talk about Jimmy's revenge as should we wait or do
we or do we get into it now? Well, because
it is kind of fascinating it is. I would have

(15:37):
liked to have seen the movie that they make within
this movie, because it would have been probably the worst
movie ever made, Like it would be such a mess,
like Jimmy's Like the monologue that Bobby is practicing is
like so just like bizarre and repetitive and like obviously
extremely racist, and it's just like a mess. Yeah, that's

(16:01):
the thing that I don't understand. It's called Jimmy's Revenge.
Jimmy's brother dies, Jimmy is already at the scene when
he dies. The guy who killed him is there, is there,
so Jimmy is about to attack him. I assume that's
what he's talking about the whole time. So how long
is this movie? Like he doesn't he get? Like That's

(16:24):
what I kept thinking about when when you just brought
that up. I was like, wait, yeah, how long. It's
Jimmy's Revenge. He's jim You know what I means, Jimmy. Yeah,
it's all right, it's happening right there, happening. It's maybe
it's a short film. It's it's a it's a seven
minute film. I didn't even connect that. I was like, wow,

(16:47):
I should have been thinking harder about Jimmy and what
it's called. That's on me because what happens after right,
we know we never see so Jimmy is like not
the best role, but even so, if Bobby gets this part,
it will be a big break in his career. Then

(17:09):
we meet Bobby's mom, his grandma, and his little brother.
We see a commercial for a TV show about Mr
Batty or something like that. It's a show where half man,
half bat lives with a white suburban family. Batty boy,

(17:30):
Batty boy, batty boy. Hey, you know you guys should
do for your next Patreon You should just do Durant,
just fucking just doing descriptions of sketches. Was a bat
who's half man, half bat. He was living in the
suburbs of Michigan. I love listen to describe all of these.

(17:54):
This is great. Now I feel self conscious of no, no,
this is this is no. You're you're you're so accurate.
You're you know what I mean, You're accurate. It's clear,
it's it's it's great. I'm loving what you're doing. I
just never heard anybody actually describe what happens in the

(18:15):
sketches in the Hollywood Shuffle before and it's mind blowing
to me just to hear a half man, half bad.
I mean that's the way he's described in the movie.
So yeah, yeah, which isn't even funnier because he's just
wearing a costume from my party. That's another thing. What's

(18:44):
the background on Battie? Like how why is that family? Like?
How did he get there? Is it a fresh prince
of bel Air situation where he's sent over because like
like like you know, it's just it's tough for a
bat in like l a, So he's gotta go. He

(19:07):
got in one little fight and his mom got scared,
so we're gonna go send you to live with this
white family in Michigan. Yeah, and he's a grown man too.
He's like it's not like he's growing up with the kids.
You know, he's like a young it's not like a
Casper situation. He's like a fully full adult. Yeah. Yeah.

(19:34):
I only bring up Batty Boy because he'll he comes
back later. So you know, I have to I have
to plant the seed plant to pay off with the boy.
There is check offs Batty Boy. Okay. So anyway, so
we see that commercial, then we see Bobby call out
of work because and he's like, I have to go

(19:56):
to the dentist, but it's really so he can go
to this audition. Um. Then we see a montage of
other black actors auditioning for various roles, but many of
them are there for the same role that Bobby is
there for. And then he talks to another actor who
comments on how this role of Jimmy is like a

(20:16):
white man's stereotype of a black man and how the
only roles that Hollywood ever lets them play are slaves
and butlers and things like that. Remember, it's like time
to go audition, And then we cut to Bobby having
kind of like a day dream fantasy thing, which which
is a commercial for Black Acting School, which I think

(20:39):
is one of the most famous scenes from this movie,
where basically it's a school where white teachers teach black
actors how to play criminals, gang leaders, pimps, drug dealers,
all manner of roles like that. It's such a great scene.

(20:59):
It's so good. It's so good. And knowing that I
didn't know that like Robert Townsend was like a second
city guy, and knowing that made it an even better
viewing experience. Oh my god, And I love the audition
scenes were you've seen all those different actors coming in

(21:20):
and when that one, that one like scholarly actor goes
in and then that like you're the worst actor. He's like,
I could try in an iamic. They would have the
actual gang memories and any pulls out that. I was
like like, this is this is it's it's a it's

(21:42):
such a great sequence. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
want to talk all about that because there's like a
lot of really good commentary in that montage that we'll discuss. Um.
So then Bobby goes to work at the hot dog
stand where he works, and the actor who plays Battie
boy A shows up and Bobby is like hey and

(22:05):
like a gigantic limousine, and Bobby asks him about acting
and how can you tell if a script is good,
and Batty boys like, well, if your character doesn't die,
then it's a good script. And we're like, oh wow,
the bar is low. Um. Then we see we see

(22:28):
seen where Bobby has been playing basketball with his friends,
and then they talk about how there needs to be
more black film critics, and then we cut to another
kind of fantasy day dream of Bobby's about these two
black guys who sneak into movies and then review them.
And then we see knockoff versions of Amadeus, Indiana Jones,

(22:49):
Dirty Harry, and then a zombie movie. Then Bobby gets
a call from his agent saying that the casting directors
at the audition really liked him and that he has
gotten a callback, but they're looking for an Eddie Murphy type.
So then we get another dream sequence where Bobby's at
his callback saying that he doesn't want to be Eddie Murphy,

(23:12):
he just wants to be himself, but then he can't
help but to do an Eddie Murphy impression. And then
this is the same year that Robert Townsend directs Raw. Yeah,
so good, are you reading this? I wrote this down
and yes, I'm reading it, okay. I was just thinking.
I was like, holy shit. It was like I was like,

(23:33):
did you you just be watched this like yesterday? Like
you recite this whole thing, Sam, I write it down
otherwise I will forget everything. Um. Yeah, I read that
Eddie Murphy saw Hollywood Shuffle and like demanded that Robert

(23:56):
Townsend direct his stand up special. That's the best. Like
and then I didn't know that I don't know, I
just like did a deep dive on Robert Townson last
night because I'm like, I just know as the guy
from the Parenthood um where like when he was like
in his early twenties, he was like passed over for

(24:18):
a sn L in favor of Eddie Murphy. He just
like Eddie Murphy was like haunting his life and then
they became friends. I love that man. Um. Okay, So
then we see Bobby quit his job at the hot
dog stand, banking on making it as an actor, and
then he visits his uncle at a barbershop and he's

(24:39):
he expresses some concerns about what if he's not good enough?
What if I don't make it as an actor. He
goes to his call back and nails it and he
gets the part, and he celebrates with his girlfriend. I
think Lydia. Yeah, we're supposed to think she's an important
character because she's on the poster for the movie, but
but I can't name one thing about her other than

(25:02):
she certainly is a girlfriend. Yes, they watch a detective
movie with his grandmother who comes in and sits between them,
and then we get a sequence of this detective movie
that they're watching where Robert Townsend plays like a film
noir detective solving a murder. Then he's about to go

(25:23):
in for his first day of shooting this movie, Jimmy's Revenge,
which again is a seven minute short film We've decided,
and he reads this note from his little brother about
how his brother really looks up to Bobby, and then
Bobby overhears his grandma talking about how she doesn't want

(25:44):
him adding to the negative portrayals of black people in movies,
and she thinks he should get a job at the
post office. Then he shows up to set and he
hears that the n double a CP is going to
pick it the movie because of its racist stereotyp types.
So then we see another dream sequence where he's being
picketed and then his grandma and his little brother and

(26:07):
his girlfriend disown him and then they kill him. If
you print that, the kid is so cute, Yes, where

(26:27):
are they now? The character's name, I forget his little
brother's Stevie, right, Stevie. Stevie is so cute and funny,
A plus child actor truly, So then we're back in reality.
He shoots a scene from the movie, but his character
is just so reductive and the direction he's getting from

(26:49):
the white filmmakers is very racist, and his grandma and
little brother are so disappointed in him, and he's disappointed
in himself. So Bobby quits and walks off the set.
Then there's another dream sequence where he's imagining himself in
all of these awesome movie roles, and then he imagines
himself winning an oscar, and then the movie ends with

(27:12):
him doing a commercial for the post office saying, you know,
if you can't take pride in your work, you can
always get a job at the post office. And that's
how the movie ends, except for that song at the end,
the song and the right. Then there's a fun like
moral of the story song over the credits, and then

(27:35):
the movie ends, and before that there's the Hollywood that
that credit sequence, they had that song one in a
million and it's so good. I love that. I love
that song. And they play at the beginning of the
movie too. It's oh, it's delightful. Yeah, it's a great
soundtrack to bookend a movie. So that's the story. Let's

(27:57):
take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss.
And we're back initial all right, and we're gonna take
a quick quick commercial break. I always want to always

(28:19):
want to say that, Well I'll cut, I'll splice that
audio the next time we haven't No I'm doing it,
won't it won it won't feel organic, it will we
won't feel right. Okay, Well we'll figure we'll figure out
a way to make this work. I just want to
earn it. I want to I want to have that

(28:43):
ability to just be like in the middle of this podcast,
we're like, oh, I think that's a good time for
a break. Well, we'll leave this up to you, Sam,
So you better not screw it up. Oh man, I'm
gonna forget so quickly. It's gonna be like that four
or five thing again. Okay, Well, now that we are

(29:04):
back thanks to Sam taking the lead. Um So, I
mean this movie is just like it's one big string
of commentary on the way black people are represented in Hollywood.
Like that's very clearly the agenda of this movie, and

(29:25):
that is very clearly what's coming across. So yeah, I
kind of just made a list of the different things
that we get commentary on. Um So, basically, you guys
bought like Google sheets and ship this is I'm telling you, Sam,
we write things down simply you guys got mad notes,

(29:52):
you bought mad notes. This is y'all real for real.
This is like no lie, this is like wow. Well yet,
so there's effective commentary on, obviously, the roles that tend
to be only available to black actors, such an especially
so this movie came out, this is more true then

(30:16):
than it is now. But a lot of these things
that get commented on are still current problems in Hollywood
thirty years later. So the rules that tend to only
be available for black actors, such as playing slaves, pimps,
gang leaders, drug dealers, any kind of criminal really, and

(30:38):
just commentary on how damaging that is too black people.
There's commentary on the expectation of white filmmakers for black
actors to like act more black quote unquote, or to
mimic an existing bankable movie star who was black, rather

(30:58):
than like, let black act there's just like be themselves
or like figure out their own brand. And there's all
that mentioned of Eddie Murphy, of course, and how like
they just reference black actors who have already tested well
with white audiences and they don't want to stray outside
of the black actors that they know test well with
white audiences, and then as far as like, when black

(31:21):
women are auditioning for these parts, it's like they're always
about to be murdered or assaulted, Like there's not even
there's it's it's even worse. There's commentary on light skinned
black actors. We see two light skinned black guys at

(31:43):
this audition at the beginning of the movie. One of
them is saying, how like white casting directors were telling
him that he wasn't black enough for the part. The
other one is saying, how like they weren't sure if
he was black or not, And then he says, how
he uses sunten lotion now and I wasn't. Was the
implication that he was like intentionally trying to keep himself

(32:05):
as light as possible so that he could pass as
white and then therefore get more roles. Was that what
was happening there? I think the I think he was
trying to say he was trying to come off as
like like dark skinn Italian or something like that. Yeah,
I got it. I think that's what it was said.

(32:25):
I don't know. I didn't fucking bring notes talk like
where are you like? Yo? I I did not bring
notes and I feel bad. Don't worry. Oh, my god, no,
I liked. I mean it was the colorism came up

(32:46):
a bunch throughout this movie. It comes up in the
in the Black Acting school sketch as well, Like it
comes up all the time. And we we were, I
don't know, we were just talking about colorism in our
Selena up said a couple of weeks ago. And this
is a movie that literally lays out all of those
talking points in the funniest way possible. It also overlaps

(33:09):
with like how Latin X actors are stereotyped because they
like end up casting I think in Jimmy's Revenge they
end up casting light skinned black actors to play Latin
X roles and like it just becomes a just a
big racist mess, like it's and it's all like laid
out for you in I don't know. I had to

(33:32):
like rewind a couple of times because I was like
laughing because it's funny, and then I was like, wait
a second, they just said something really really important, and
then I had to like do a do an intellectual
watch after after Yeah, it's the kind of thing of
it's just like any minority would do, you know. And
that was and that's like that's something that it's still

(33:55):
didn't change at all really in the nineties. You know,
it was um in Black Acting school like one of
the things that always like strikes me one of the
things that's like always so funny with the black acting schools,
just like when they have the white actors show the
black actors like how to walk and stuff. Oh yeah,
it's like it's just it's just my it's it's one

(34:19):
of those things that it's like I'm watching this movie
and I think about like what it is now thirty
years later, and it's like that's like the equivalent of
like when white people are like, oh yeah, you talk
white like, you know, Like it's that same kind of
it's that same kind of thing. Yeah, And like you
see Bobby like in a bunch of different scenes having
to code switch from just like the way he normally

(34:42):
talks to the way the white filmmakers want him to
talk when he's like acting in the audition or like
on set, because they want him to be more of
what they think a black person is and how they
think a black person talks. And there's a been a
line in the end credit song where one of the

(35:04):
white filmmakers says that he learned about black people from TV,
and he's sort of using that as like his defense
and his excuse. But those racist portrayals influenced his racist portrayals,
so you know, you just get this like never ending
cycle of negative representation in media because rich white people

(35:26):
are making all of the decisions. Oh and and just
the idea of Jimmy himself, like the character of Jimmy,
like this this podcast is mostly gonna be about Jimmy's revenge.
We should just title this Jimmy. Uh. But like Jimmy's Revenge.
It's like he he brings to it in the audition

(35:49):
such a ridiculous like stereotype because he knows that's what
would appease them, because like Jimmy in and of itself,
if you just like me, it's like, oh, yeah, this
could have been like a tough guy, but they like
purposely want this like foolish, you know, buffoon, And it's like, yeah,
that's that's a part that's like always got to me, definitely.

(36:13):
And there's commentary in this movie as well on black
actors resenting these like racist stereotypical roles that they are
presented with and not wanting to play them, but having
to do it anyway because they need work, they need
to be able to support themselves, and those are the
only roles available to them, so they can't turn them down,

(36:36):
even though they're so regressive and reductive. Like that actor
who was like who keeps going to Bobby and being like,
I can't believe that someone would do this part, and
and he's like, I'm going and then he takes it
because right, yeah, And I like, doesn't he it's him
who comes back at the end, right, and he goes
that he's just like clearly resentful that Bobby has gotten

(37:00):
the part, but trying to like high grounded, he's like, yeah,
I don't know if I would have taken on such
an offensive role, but you know, but he's there in
the same movie doing a smaller role, which which to
me is like the equivalent of like people like commenting
on a tweet, you know what I mean. It's like, Oh,
I have this moral superiority, but yet I'm going to

(37:23):
engage in like the same behavior, you know, like, yeah,
it's real blue check behavior. He's just playing there. Yeah.
I think that the way that this movie kind of
lays out just the predicament that Bobby and all of
these black actors are in is like even with how

(37:44):
they're received by the black community, Like it's like you
just can't win because it's like, Okay, if you want
to be an actor, there are only these offensive roles available.
So the option is to either quit what you're passionate
about or play the game. And then now like your
grandma doesn't respect you and like that like that is

(38:06):
so I don't know, like I've never seen that laid
out so well, yeah, I I completely agree, but I
think you're also forgetting about the third option, which is
to be the best actor in a post office commercial.
And that's always like the third option is you can
be flow the progressive lady of the US Postal Service,

(38:28):
and if you could, if you could get that, I mean,
it's kind of the best of both worlds. So like,
let's always remember the third option. It's always on the table. Yes,
that is that is the hero's journey here. I like
to think that's the only commercial you ever does too,

(38:50):
and it just makes bank, you know what I mean.
I mean it's like the residuals had to have been
sweet on that and it was timeless. It wasn't a
dated looking commercial. Anytime I hear about people being in commercials,
I'm like, holy ship, Like it's ridiculous money. I hope

(39:10):
that he bought a house with his postal service commercial. Yeah,
because you know how federally funded the United States Post
Office is just paying millions of dollars to advertise all
the time. Hey sent any mail lately. I love it.
People need stamps and they don't know where to go.

(39:33):
This is a this is a great time for that.
If you're looking for stamps in your town hall, but
you don't know where to go in the middle of
your place of business, you can always go to the
post office. Well, Sam a ringing endorsement of the United
States post you can cut that. You're gonna cut. No,

(39:54):
I'm keeping you. I'm cutting it. Also, the post Office
is having a bit of a moment right now, so
people about the post Office. I've seen people in post
office crop tops. I'm like, what is going on? I
bought so much post office merch pre election. It was,

(40:14):
but I want to talk about I think like the
real third option here, which is to do what Robert
Townsend did, which is he like wrote this movie, co
wrote this movie, directed it, produced it, funded it himself.
It only had a one dollar budget. The movie made
five million at the box office, which you know isn't
a lot of money, but comparatively for the small budget

(40:38):
it was on, it was like considered a big success,
and then he got an amazing career out of it.
He was like directing Eddie Murphy Specials by the end
of that calendar year. Like that's so, it's yeah, and
I wanted to I found an article Vanity Fair. Yes.
I love when we find the same both finding the

(40:58):
one article that, yeah, your note You guys take so
many notes that your notes come together, like that's your
notes a symbiotic. It's like venom and Tom Hardy. Wow.
I was not expecting you to use that reference me either.

(41:26):
You think you think you think I came in were
with notes? Non man, I'm I'm straight up improvn And
that's the best I could come up with a venom reference. Incredible.
I did not pre plan of a venom reference. That's
the new Like that's like the new Yin and Yang.
It's just oh, we have fun. But yeah, that that

(41:56):
Vanity Fair pieces great. Yes, says I wanted to read
a little bit from it, just to give a little
bit of background on Robert Townsend and sort of like
how this movie came together. So the article is entitled
thirty years later, the searing critiques of Hollywood Shuffle still sting.
H quote Townsend was in experience. He didn't go to

(42:18):
film school and hadn't directed a short film, so he
had not directed Um Jimmy's Revenge before UM, but he's
still snuck it in there. It's like, mank uh. He
didn't go to film school and hadn't directed a short film,
but determined to tell a story about being marginalized by

(42:41):
the industry. In four he had a small role in
the Oscar nominated a Soldiers Story. I told my agent,
I want to do more movies like this, Townsend tells
Vanity Fair. My agent was like, Robert, they only do
one black movie a year. You just did it. Be happy.
But Townsend wasn't happy. So he talked to a friend, Waynes,
whom he met at the Improv in New York. I

(43:03):
thought my dream of being an artist was dying because
at the time the only roles Keenan and I were
auditioning for were slaves and pimps and stereotypes of basketball
players who couldn't read towns and said it was all
the negative stuff. And then Keenan and I started talking,
and I was like, we should do a movie about
our lives. That's how it started. And then they wrote
the script together without any studio backing, though Townsend was

(43:27):
faced with financing the film on his own. Uh he says, quote,
the idea of somebody writing, directing, and producing and starring
in a movie, especially a person of color, wasn't heard of.
Everybody said the bar was so high you couldn't get
in if you didn't have millions and millions of dollars.
And then he eventually raised a hundred thousand dollars to

(43:48):
make Shuffle, using money he earned from acting gigs as
well as credit cards and quote, so the rest is hi, Yeah,
I love this story of how this movie was made.
And then it actually, I mean it's it is kind
of like that thing that we talked about on the
show pretty frequently, is Hollywood refusing to make a movie

(44:10):
that audiences clearly want to see because once it is made,
like against all odds, it does super well, and like
this made back its budget fifty times, like it launched
the career of a few different people, and like it
it's always so frustrating, like when you're like why why
wouldn't you just make a movie with a black autour,

(44:33):
Like why why? And it's that like van Go thing
of like, you know, Townsend never really got the credit
for this movie, and yet it's like it's such a
cornerstone of like so much that comes after it, you know,
and uh, it's it's it's really amazing thinking of like
how much stuff has been made and it's like, oh,

(44:55):
this is this seems like a thing from Hollywood Shuffle,
and how many careers were made from it. Yeah, it's
it's really like amazing. Then when you look at Townsend's
career after this movie, it's like he for the most part,
doesn't make he doesn't make a movie like anything that
he actually lampooned in Hollywood Shuffle. And that's one of
the most amazing things about his career is like he

(45:18):
kind of stuck to for better for worse. He's stuck
to the Hollywood Shuffle like he you know, he makes
like a bio film, he makes a family sitcom, a
black superhero movie. You know. It's it's like it's kind
of like it's kind of remarkable that he actually like

(45:38):
still stuck to those principles. I guess, yeah, he's a
man of integrity. I love. I'm like, oh, he's great. Uh.
And then and and I guess just going off as
as amazing as it is that he was able to
make this movie the way he was, it is like
it's both inspiring and kind of like it's because we've

(45:58):
heard this story of like marginalized filmmakers having to like
jump through all sorts of hoops financially and production wise
in order to get their first movie made. And then
you hear other stories of like Wes Anderson was just
handed ten million dollars. I couldn't even write on paper,
and they said this boy, I like, I like the

(46:21):
cut of his jib, and he seems like he'll come up,
he'll come up with something. And meanwhile there's like these
you know, and it's like whatever, that's no shade os Anderson.
He figured it out eventually, but like, you know, it
just just the disparity and like who is handed money
even though they're not even qualified and like amazing artists

(46:42):
with like a really clear perspective, like Robert Townsend and
I'm also thinking of like Jeff Barnaby, like his story
of making rhymes for young girls or a woman walks
home alone at night. I got the title wrong, but
like all of these like really amazing movies with the
are just different, like the the climb to get it

(47:04):
released and like made the way the director wants is
so steep, and meanwhile we're just handing west Understand a
blank check and being like you'll figure it out, twenty
two year old, like good luck. It's infuriating. There's even
some commentary similar to that in Hollywood Shuffle where there's
a scene where towards the end, Bobby is like observing

(47:26):
white actors in the studio that he's in. Basically it's
just like, yeah, white actors are given the freedom to
take on roles that aren't these racist stereotypes obviously, like
they can audition for a wider scope of parts. And
because you see him watching like two white actors rehearse
the scene where they're like professing their love for each other,

(47:48):
and then he sees another white action star who's like
making demands of the script, and then like the white
producers are like acquiescing to his demands for the most part.
So hey, I was just thinking, Man, I would love
to see Wes Anderson direct a remake of Hollywood Shuffle.

(48:10):
That would be so amazing. All the parts would be
played by Ralph Fines and fucking perfectly symmetrical. Reimagine everyone's
the same movie and it was all black actors, but

(48:30):
they were all wearing both ties, like same cast, and
then there's just like so much headroom above every the
actors and every shot. Oh my god, I like, I
know that Wes Anderson is a competent filmmaker. I just

(48:51):
get exhausted even thinking about watching one of his movies.
It's just there's just too much. It's too much. I
like Moonrise Kingdom a lot. I like that one. I
still seen that. I like that one a lot. I
didn't see the I didn't see the dog one. Oh
I love dogs. I did not like I love dogs
really at all, like that one. I think it's funny

(49:11):
that it's called I Love Dogs. It took me forever
to figure out that it's just called I Love Dogs.
Oh me too, I didn't know Marley and Me was
was about a dog. Oh yeah, isn't that dog dog dies?
I thought spoilers Marley. I thought it was like a

(49:34):
Julia and Julia thing with Bob Marley, Like, wow, Sam,
you have to write that script just a Adam, just
just being like, I love Weed. The exact same set

(49:55):
up is Julian exact same movie. Hey Sam, this would
be a really interesting time to take an ad break,
just in case. Hey guys, you know what, this conversation
is great, but you know it's even better what ads

(50:17):
we should take. We're gonna take a quick commercial break
and movie right back, folks. Incredible, it is this going? Okay,

(50:39):
I'm sorry, I'm having an absolute ball. I just feel
like I just I just feel like your listeners are
gonna be like, what the what the hell? They let
the guy do the ads now? Only only for you.
We we make the exception for you and you alone, Sam.

(51:02):
Only only friends can tossed a brick. Also, well, I'm
surprised we have not brought this up yet, but the
episode that we did with you a few years ago
now was a live episode that we recorded in Boston,
And because it was in Boston, Jamie's mom was there,

(51:23):
and Jamie's mom that fateful meeting. For anyone who remembers
this on the Men in Black episode was aggressively hitting
on Sam during the show loudly. It was sparks were
flying in the middle of our podcast. Also the room

(51:45):
that that was like the the smaller theater at Improv Boston.
Like you can't overstate how physically close the audience is
to you. Like so my mom could have just reached
out and like held your hands. Yes, yes, it should
have happened, honestly, I mean it's still can't It's still

(52:06):
what's stopping you. It's never too late, honestly, no doubt.
Like I added your mom on Facebook, immediately act and
show it's still it's not It's not too late. My mom,
just bring over a Diane Lane DVD. Is Yeah, I

(52:27):
got that. I got that Diane Lane DVD. Uh Candle
what oh was it an Taylor and Aunt Taylor Candle.
That's what I'm going to bring. Yeah, she'll she will
be disarmed, she won't know what She'll be like, I've

(52:48):
only ever seen this in a Diane Lane movie before.
I can't believe it's happening. I mean, honestly, for me,
all I mean, you know, like you know, all joking aside.
I just I really think your Mom's like just just
just a great just a great woman. And you know,
I think it's amazing how she just raised such a

(53:09):
loving and caring family. And uh, you know, and if
she's listening, like you know, my damn's are open, Jill,
you hear that, Jill, M this man, don't blow this.
I'm very attached to the idea of Sam becoming my dad,

(53:34):
so it would be huge for me. So am I?
So am I. Well, here's okay, here's where I would
like to get into some of the more criticism of
this movie, because while there is a lot of very

(53:55):
effective commentary in the movie, there are some parts that, um,
just the movie kind of fails to touch on. Uh,
And I'm talking mostly about how black women are largely
left out of this commentary. Yeah, black women are not
entirely absent, because there are different moments where some of

(54:16):
the black actors who are women are talking about how
they are usually only cast in like sex worker roles
or or just straight up murder victim roles. Right, Yeah,
it's like that. Yeah. One of the things that stuck
out to me was like, I feel like we're led

(54:36):
to believe that women are more involved in this movie
than they are. Like the marketing of this movie. Um
Anne Marie Johnson who plays uh Bobby's girlfriend Lydia, like
she's on the poster and then you're like, oh, so
this is like she's going to be involved, but she's
kind of she we don't. I mean, I couldn't tell
you a thing about this character that isn't She's Bobby's girlfriend.

(54:59):
There's friend, here's girlfriend, which sucks because it's like the
performances really know there's I didn't mean to cut you
off with that. That's like Ron Berman. No, that was
me quoting ourselves on this very podcast for a long

(55:20):
running joke, which you'd know if you'd ever listen, sam Well,
I I listened. I listened every episode. I get ten
mints in. I'm like, no Ron Perlman reference. I do
that with every single podcast. That's why that's why I
didn't get in into Cereal. I'm getting really into the

(55:43):
Ron Perlman Beauty and the Beast series. We talked about
it on the past episode, but I just kind of
kept watching it. But yeah, like Emery Johnson, who like
goes on to have like a pretty great career, she
was like on in Living Color, that's where I realized
that I recognized her from in the middle of watching
this movie. Um, but it's there's so many opportunities for

(56:07):
Lydia in this movie that I feel like you're all
kind of dropped in and we mostly see her in
like either she's being supportive towards Bobby, which is great,
but like that's kind of it. Or you see her
in like a fantasy that Bobby is having about her,
not fantasy, like a nightmare sequence where she all of
a sudden isn't supportive of him. But that is really

(56:29):
the only two modes we see her, and it's like
supporting my boyfriend or not supporting my boyfriend. You know
where she works. That's it. That's it. And I mean,
not only could we just have seen more of her,
there was just there's just so much room for commentary
on the way black women are represented in Hollywood, and

(56:50):
they're just really isn't much in the way of that
commentary at all. There's another moment where in the audition
scene towards the beginning of the movie, there are two
women who were talking to each other about one of
them had been invited over to a movie director's house
at midnight, and instead of there being any kind of
commentary on how women and particularly women of color are

(57:12):
exploited by powerful people in the entertainment industry, instead of that,
a joke has made about how the woman was like,
of course I went to his house and I was
one minute early. T he so just like there were
opportunities feminists, all right. I was rewatching this movie this

(57:33):
morning and I was like, Yo, that's gonna be a
Bechdel cast. Note. I was like, yeah, they're going to
mention down the Beachdel cast. Were you right? It's true
that because it's like there was like a moment in
the movie where like Robert Townsend is beyond qualified to

(57:54):
be making all of these like he's making a ton
of amazing points in the same scene. And then yeah,
it's like they're kind of a misogynist joke that like
implies that like, oh, you know, these actors, you know
they get it, they don't they don't mind having to
like have sex with these nasty directors in order to
get work. And that was and then the only other

(58:15):
woman you see preparing and that sequence is flailing around
because she's going to be a murder victim. Um so yeah,
just most of the meaningful commentary in this movie about
black representation in Hollywood is about black men specifically, and
again in this movie, black women are largely left out

(58:36):
of the conversation, which is because they are like, as
we were kind of talking about, it's like the struggles
that black women face in the industry are compounded with
misogyny on top of everything. So there's yeah, I was,
and I think like another thing that makes it always
like so tough, as like in in this film, there's

(59:00):
also this like idea in the in this time period
where a black woman's like the best thing she could
be was a great mom or a great grandma, you know,
and a lot of those movies and in those films,
and it's like and that was like, that's like one
of those things was like, it was like the importance

(59:22):
of black motherhood is shown, like is very important in
a lot of things that that Robert Townsen does, and
it's and it's also seen in this movie. But it
was the it's the fact that there's nothing beyond that,
you know, which is always like, which is the disappointing factor. Definitely,
I almost wish I was I wish that his girlfriend

(59:45):
was like also an actor or something like, she could
have been like included in the story that way where
it's like, oh, here's a person we already know played
by an amazing comic actress. And and then like you know,
ask literally and Marie Johnson. When you're writing this movie Getty,
it's always that thing of just like, oh, if you
don't you know, fully know what are the specific struggles

(01:00:05):
that black female actors face, just ask your friend, Like,
she's right there for it. She's literally right there, she's
on she's hanging out on the poster of your movie. Um,
but yeah, that's a great like if if she had
also been like a struggling actor auditioning four roles that
were largely racist stereotypes, like that could have opened up

(01:00:29):
all those opportunities for much needed commentary on that very topic.
But it would have just like made their relationship a
little more interesting too, because all we know is like
they're dating, they love they love each other, which is
like great, but like they would be cool if they
had like that, like they bonded over this like shared
frustration and struggle as well. Yeah, I just wish that

(01:00:52):
there was more of Emory Johnson in this movie. Because
in the middle I was like, wait a second, she's
like super fucking talented. I wish she was more. I did,
like I guess that, yeah, the mother figures the mother,
and then particularly the grandmother who what what show is
she on? She's on Good Times another show I watched.

(01:01:13):
I watched a lot of Niked Knight as a child then.
But I liked that Bobby's grandmother was kind of like
she kind of ended up being the only person who,
you know, saw what was going on and said it,
which I thought was kind of cool. I just wish
that there was like more, I don't know, more more

(01:01:35):
of her. Yeah. In fact, for the first like fifty
or so minutes of the movie, I was like, oh,
I guess we're just going to meet the grandmother and
then she's never gonna come back into the story. But
then she does, and she plays a pretty significant role
in sort of inspiring Bobby to like walk off this
set and quit this movie, because in this world, you

(01:01:58):
bring your entire family to shoot a movie with you.
That was the other thing. I was like, Wow, he
just brought literally everyone he knows to the same including
his child brother, and they would film in the whole movie.
In that one day, it's like a guy, damn play

(01:02:18):
the heart. Do you think of it? About it? The
lass Jimmy's Revenge makes sense? But yeah, so I like
that the grandmother character becomes important and a lot of
what she says is like, again, part of this important
commentary that's happening in the movie. And then there's even

(01:02:41):
like a nice conversation between her and Bobby's mom where
she's saying, like, I don't want a grandson of mine
to be adding to all this negative imagery of black
people in media, and his mom is like, yes, everything
you're saying is right, but also it's work, like he
need needs to work and if this is has chosen

(01:03:03):
line of work, like he's got to do what's available
to him. And so there's like that, you know, the
push and pull of do I take a horribly racist
role or do I, you know, like by by my principles,
which means never getting work and never making money. So
it's like this whole the just a tug of war

(01:03:25):
kind of thing with your own conscience. But um yeah,
like we said, there's we get introduced to the grandmother
at the very beginning, and then she's pretty much absent
from the story until the last like twenty minutes or so, right,
And I liked I mean, I liked that conversation that
his mother and grandmother we're having, Like that is I

(01:03:46):
feel like that's like that conversation they're having is at
the core of the movie, and like clearly he like
really values their respect and like doesn't want to disappoint them,
and they're kind of at the core of like the
kind of like the back in for it that he's
experiencing of like does he take this role or not?
But yeah, but they're just barely there. I don't know, Yeah, yeah,

(01:04:07):
I mean it is. It is one of those things
where it's like, I I wish there was definitely more
in that because that that central theme of the movie
comes down to two black women talking and it's like
I wish there was more of a lead up to it. Yeah, Yeah,
that that was like that, and then the the unchecked

(01:04:29):
homophobia that came up at a few points in this
movie were certainly very Yeah, but yeah, I don't know,
it's that was I mean, how the how the female
characters are kind of sidelined was like really the main
thing that bummed me out about this movie, because otherwise

(01:04:51):
it's like saying so much that no movie ever does
and saying it that is so like still unfortunately like
super relevant. Yeah, and it's like, you know, black black
women deserve to be a part of that conversation. And
there's just as much, if not you know, even more
like comedic stuff to draw on, but it's just not

(01:05:12):
what this movie is doing. Yeah, I guess that like
the most the one of the biggest bummers of it
is like that's the that's the most that a lot
of the black actress, the three black actress in this
movie got to do other than the stereotypes in the
movie like that year Like that's also like just such
a such such a stark thing. Is like they don't

(01:05:36):
really do a whole lot in necessarily this movie. But
it's and it's still not it's at least not the
thing that they're lamp wounding in it. And it's like
still like such a mind warp of just like awfulness. Yeah, wait,
I'm this is I'm looking at Amory Johnson's IMDb and
I'm realizing I've seen her in so much stuff, including

(01:05:58):
she was an iconic role on That's so raven. She
played Donna Cabana on That's So Raven all my thoughts
So Raven heads, you'll know who I'm talking about. Wow. Huge,
she was in Boomerang. I remember that. Oh yeah, Wow,
that makes me so happy. I'm googling Donna Cabana because

(01:06:21):
she had the best outfits. Anyways, Um, shout out to
Donna Cabana. Um, it's saying it over and over. It
gets I wish I knew what that was she save.
I also did not watch She's wait. I want to

(01:06:42):
make sure I'm getting her character description right. I'm pretty
sure she Yeah, she's like a famous fashion designer in
the world of That's So Raven. She's like Raven's hero.
She looks up to Donna Cabana and she wants to
be just like Donna Cabana. And then she meets Donna
Cabana and guess what. Donna Cabana is a bit of
a wacky character my Disney channel. Um, so you know

(01:07:07):
it's written. Uh, it's co written with Keenan, Ivory Waynes
and Robert Townsend. Directed by Robert Townsend. It's produced by
Robert Townsend. And there is a woman in the mix here. Um,
there is a female Latin X producer named Lydia Nicole
who has gone by Lydia Fernandez at different times in

(01:07:27):
her career. But I did not like I once I
saw pictures of her. She was in a bunch of
she's like a child actor who kind of became a producer.
And now UM is in charge of a nonprofit called
Common Sense Media and like advocates for representation in media.
But this was like her first producing gig. She was

(01:07:50):
previously in another movie we talked about recently, Stand and Deliver,
the classic. I think she was one of the students
in Stand and Deliver. I'm not I'm not exactly sure,
but and she kind of pivoted into UM producing and
backing projects that she believed in. She started doing stand
up in her late twenties and like started all these

(01:08:10):
like women of color comedy showcases in l A and like,
I don't know, I just got rules. I enjoyed learning
about her and she she started UM. After that, she
she collaborated with Robert Townsend. I think a few more times.
She's like a producer on a bunch of his projects
and UM and their buds. So I just wanted to

(01:08:30):
give her her a shout out, because it's always I mean,
especially in the late eighties, there's like barely any women
high up in any Hollywood project, and so I'm glad
that she she like had a seat at the table there. Yeah,
that's awesome. Shout out Lydia, shout out. I wonder if
the character in this movie Lydia was named after her?

(01:08:54):
I wow, makes I did not. I did all that
research and did not make that connect. Yeah, yeah, see that.
See that. That's that symbiotic relationship. You guys, your notes
fit into each other's notes. We need each other to
connect the dots. Sometimes, yeah, you're mad mad Venom vibes here.

(01:09:20):
Sometimes I listened to the themes that Eminem theme song
from Venom when I just need a good laugh because
it's so funny. WHOA, I didn't know that was a thing.
Oh my god. It's just like him who knows what
he's thinking for must but then he goes just Venom,
but like just he just screams Venom, and you're just like,

(01:09:41):
this is such a disaster. It's it's the funniest song
in the world. I forgot all about that song. And yeah,
the best part of Venom laid in the movie. Yeah,
as if that movie could couldn't get any more like
bash you over the head with when it's about Eminem
starts screaming Venom in the middle like it is wild.

(01:10:10):
That's great. That's also the most San Francisco movie. That's
like that year. It's like that movie and Last black
Man in San Francisco were like I was like, wow
that it was like that was part of the San
Francisco come up. San Francisco representation at an all time high.
You had Sorry to Bother You, Last black Man, San Francisco,

(01:10:33):
and Venom like they all came out like within a year.
I was like, yo, mad, San Francisco movies all very similar. Wow.
I was just gonna do a quick shout out. I mean,
I don't really have like much to note in terms
of his character, but always love to see John Witherspoon.

(01:10:56):
Oh yes, John Willispoon so good the he's his boss
at the hot dog stand, Dinky Dog. I was curious.
I was like when I saw that, I'm like, I
wonder how like because they're like uniform in the aesthetic
is similar to Good Burger, and I'm like, I wonder

(01:11:16):
if Good Burger is pulling from the Hollywood Shuffle asthetic.
It's the it's the expanding universe. Yeah, Jamie, I think
it's crucial that we cover Good Burger on the Bendel Cast. Absolutely.
In my in my notes, I wrote, like, am I
reaching dog looks? I don't think so. I Good Burger

(01:11:42):
was my favorite movie. I don't know what year it
came out, but whatever year it came out, that was
my favorite movie of that year. Yeah. Well that I
was like, I was like, Titanic was my favorite if
it is ninety seven, obviously Titanic is my favorite movie
of ninety seven. I would love to see, like you,
at like ten years old, what your top Tenny, You're

(01:12:04):
like like, You're like, yo, it's it's Titanic, it's good Burger,
Good Burger. And I found as good as he gets.
I found it tart a bit derivative for me. Yeah,
that was the word. I was saying that tarts a flavor, right,
I think movies can be tarted. I haven't revisited Good

(01:12:26):
Burger in so long. Oh my god, I got my
little Good Burger. Antenna went up because they have the
same like hats. I'm like, maybe that's just what hats
looked like at fast food restaurants in the eighties and nineties.
I don't know, I think don't remember. Even so, even so,
good Burger is important for us to talk about. Speaking
of Winky Dinky Dogs, another thing that I didn't love

(01:12:48):
to see, obviously was Bobby constantly fat shames one of
his co workers at Winky Dinky Dogs and another just
like of the time, still a problem him in Hollywood.
Not good. Another thing I wanted to Sam, you brought
this up, but I wanted to just say a little
bit more about it as far as another piece of

(01:13:09):
commentary that the movie does in terms of um black
actors with really impressive credentials being forced into again just
the reductive roles that are available to them. Because there's
that scene where like that guy's like, I just I
got my degree at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art,
and then he goes on to try to audition for

(01:13:33):
this role. He doesn't do a good job, and then
he's like, wait a minute, I can do it in
I ambic pentameter u. Yeah. Yeah. I always I always
think of as a class thing, Like I always think
of him as like this this like up pitty like
Ivy League guy, and he's like, oh no, you can't
even you can't. You know you you were so removed

(01:13:53):
from from what's like really going on to be able
to do it, and and then to have the audacity
to be like, oh yeah, I can do it. It's
like my favorite thing I was. It's very it's so funny.
I was reading it as how so many black actors
will have like or just like performance artists in general,

(01:14:14):
they'll have gone to like Juilliard or like, you know,
some really well regarded school. They'll have an impressive educational background.
They'll have had to put in so much more work
than their white peers, but you know, have access to
way fewer opportunities to showcase their hard work and their talent,

(01:14:35):
which seems very pulled from like Robert Townson's own life too,
because he's like extremely well trained. He like went through
all every second city course on the planet. He was
like a part of a theater company in New York.
Like he like put in the hours and like, yeah,
those scenes especially, I feel like the movie is like

(01:14:56):
at its strongest when he's like pulling from his like
personal experience, and like the same for Keen and Ivory
wins because it's like, yeah, he went to school for
this for fucking years and years and years. You know.
I forgot to mention this when we were talking abou
winky Dinky dogs might go on perfect beginning to a sentence.

(01:15:20):
I just love when he's like, when we see that
the minimum wage has only gone up five dollars in
thirty two and thirty two or thirty three years. Yeah,
I was like, holy shit, because because Keena's like I
was making two fifty, I'm making to sixty five. Yeah. Yeah, man,

(01:15:45):
I don't know what adjusted for inflation that even is,
but like, damn, just not criminal how little we pay. Um.
I went in to kittlee do you reference this at
the beginning? I have some some notes on it that
how this movie was received at the time of its release. Um,

(01:16:07):
so it's kind of I didn't notice that there were
a few lukewarm reviews based on kind of the stuff
we were talking about, where like some reviewers kind of
knocked Townsend for not addressing or just kind of making
light of the struggle of black female actors and also
of queer people, and like, there were certainly points lost,

(01:16:30):
mostly from female reviewers, from that, but it's generally really
well reviewed when it comes out. Ebert gave it three stars,
which I mean, he's only got thumps, he's only got
two thumbs, but he's got three stars from and he

(01:16:51):
does I guess. I guess he does three out of
four stars. So if you're thinking of five, like so
he gave, he said it was an artistic compromise, but
a gistical triumph, announcing the arrival of a new talent
whose next movie should really be something. And it's like,
shut up, but like you sounded just you sounded just
like Durantula when you said it's like people people liked it,

(01:17:16):
and it was it did really well, and it seems like,
um yeah, everyone was like, oh wow, like here's this
like new oh tour and so so that I found that,
I honestly like, you just never know with especially in
like the late eighties, where it's like there's next to
no one in the film reviewing community that is not

(01:17:36):
an old white guy that like is really trying to
be Roger Ebert. So I think there's worth noting though that,
at least on the Rotten Tomatoes count, this movie was
only reviewed by critics versus major blockbuster wide release movies

(01:17:57):
that will get hundreds of reviews. So this is the
type of movie like it could have been elevated had
more critics reviewed it and reviewed it positively and like
that would have encouraged more people to see it. And
in fact, I'm curious, So listeners, tell us how familiar
you are with this movie, because this movie, I think

(01:18:18):
it's kind of it's like off the beaten path for
a lot of audiences. Like it's not a super well
known movie, and I knew next to nothing about it
before we started prepping for this episode. Yeah, I feel
like most people I know very few people who have
heard of it. It's always like it's always either someone

(01:18:38):
has seen it and loved it or has never even
heard of it, right, Like I I've never met someone
who's been like, oh I heard of it. I I've
always want to sit, you know. I never like yeah,
Like it's that kind of movie. Is like people who
would be into it have like definitely seen it, you know,
or they're like, wow, I can't believe I didn't see it.
You know. It's like it reminds your nights silver were

(01:18:59):
nanty Is that how you say nights of Rodancy, Like,
is Rodanty a person or a place? Um, we don't know.
I think it's a small village in Italy. That's probably
a safe bet. I was hoping you both were going

(01:19:21):
to be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard of it. No,
here's what's really embarrassing. I've seen Nights in Rodanthy Knights
of Rodanthy. I don't know what preposition it is. I've
seen that movie. I have no idea what Rodanthy is.
I can't I don't remember that movie evening. You ever

(01:19:42):
see that? It's like Vanessa Redgrave and like Patrick Wilson
and um, well, uh what's his name? From Center Beauty
There in a Beauty Beauty Seat, the one with Billy
crut Up where he's like Claire Danes and our needs
and uh, I don't know why that was the movie,

(01:20:06):
The way that you got to Claire Danes, that that
was some more Tom Hardy venom bro Dancy is a
tiny village. Yeah, hell you nailed it. Hell yeah yeah,
you guys say you guys thought I didn't bring fucking notes.
I brought notes. I brought notes to the backtel you

(01:20:29):
know what I mean? We Um, does anyone have any
other thoughts on Hollywood Shuffle. Oh, yeah, we would talking
about That's one of my favorite movies. We should do
we should do a podcast episode about it. Oh, I

(01:20:51):
think that might be a good idea. Oh, I just wanted.
I just want to say, Um, my favorite part in
Hollywood Shuffle has always been the movie critics uh segment.
It's just my absolute favorite. I it's just jokes on

(01:21:11):
tops of jokes. I I love it so much. There
is I don't want to see Attack of the Street Pimps,
and I think it's it's bad everything about it. It's
it's very existence is bad for society. But god damn,
that's hilarious. That scene. It's just so fucking funny. When
they're because like they reviewed these and when they do

(01:21:32):
the amadas and he's like I used to say, so
my friends, just like man, I adn't go to see
any bullshit I can't pronounce, Like, how are you gonna
be like even like I'm gonna see i'm a i'm
a what I can't stell laughing. And then when they
do the Dirty Harry because I always I never liked
Dirty Harry. And when they did the Dirty Larry and

(01:21:56):
that whole Dirty Larry sequence. I think it's like one
of the funniest things ever ever seen, Like when when
he's like when they're talking about the guns, and then
and then they're like, yo, you think you're gonna have
a fucking conversation right now? Like I just I just
love this movie. Man. Yeah. That was. And at the

(01:22:19):
end of the Attack of the Street Pimps review, they
eat like they were like, it was full of stereotypes,
but we thought the direction was brilliant when they're like, Yo,
that guy looks just like the dude from down the street.
Crack up so much. I really like that. This is
a very like specific joke that people don't make opted

(01:22:42):
because it's a weird joke to make often. But at
the end of the movie reviewing segment, they give up
a high five and they do like a light slab
they go like, which always makes me laugh so much
when someone does a bunch of tepid high fives in
a row. Hadn't seen it in a while. I was laughing.
I can't remember if I'm gonna get you sucker came
out before this. I think it came out right after.

(01:23:04):
I think right after right, So this was Damon Wayans
debut on screen. I think. Wow. That's the other thing
that's so amazing is like you look at this gast
and it's just like a list of black excellence from
like you know, Damon Wayans, Paul Mooney, Robert Townsend. Uh,
Like it's it's just remarkable. Um. I just wish more

(01:23:27):
women had been involved, meaningful, especially because they passed Helen Martin,
who is like an iconic black sitcom actress, Like why
not give her more to do? Yeah? Yeah, no, I mean, hey,
I I completely agree with you. I love I love
feminism and famously new T shirt design. Our merchant is

(01:23:54):
getting more and more basis time passes. I love feminism,
Sam Mike. If you guys start doing, no, your next merch,
your next merch is going to be like YouTube as
venom and hardy, like front to back, like one of
you was venom, one of you was hardy, and like,

(01:24:16):
that's that's the that's the new merch. Like Yo, beck
Deel listeners, if you're still listening, go on the comments,
Go on the go on the Bechdel cast Reddit, Get
Jamie and data to make venom t shirts. Done done? Fine, Fine,
I'll do it. Well, does the movie pass the Beck

(01:24:42):
dol test Um. I think I didn't think it did.
I wasn't I wasn't sure. I honestly like, I wasn't
paying super super closettention. But it did seem like most
times female characters were talking to each other, it was
about either Bobby or there is that thing where they
were at the at the audition scene where to nameless

(01:25:04):
actresses were talking about um getting sexually harassed by a
male director. There's a couple there's a scene where the
like the casting director I think is like her role.
She is named as Millicent. She is talking to another
woman who gets named as Miss Strickland, and they talk
about the role that Ms Strickland is auditioning for and

(01:25:26):
like the type of person they are looking for. So
that technically passes. And then the scene with Bobby's I
was so nervous, Wait, so it does pass. I think
it does because I would also I think there's an
argument to be made for the scene where Bobby's mom

(01:25:46):
and grandma they are talking about Bobby, but it's part
of a larger conversation about negative representations of black people
in media. So I was like, okay that that feels
like it would be maybe an exception to the rule.
I don't know. The bottom line, women aren't in this
movie enough. There's not enough commentary on the way black

(01:26:08):
women are represented in media. And it's the bummer because
there's more than enough room for it in exact movie
and like more than enough material too end things to
be said about it. And with that in mind, as
far as our nipple scale, in which we write the
movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based

(01:26:30):
on an intersectional examination of the movie, even though it
is providing a lot of really funny and effective commentary
on the way black men specifically are represented in Hollywood,
as we've been saying, there is a noticeable lack of

(01:26:51):
commentary as it relates to Black women and their representation
in media. And I think even though some of the
characters who are women in the movie, like especially the grandma,
I would say is the kind of most important character
to Bobby, she still doesn't get that much screen time.

(01:27:12):
His girlfriend doesn't get much screen time. We know nothing
about her. There's just there's just not enough there. And
there are many cases in which black men haven't shown
up for black women as much as they should and
this just kind of feels like one of those examples
of like, why wouldn't you when you're making a movie

(01:27:34):
that is specifically like a satire and specifically commentary on
black representation in media, why wouldn't you include black women
in that more meaningfully? And then there's the homophobic jokes
and slurs that get made. So I don't know where
to land on this exactly on the nipple scale, I

(01:27:55):
guess I think I can only really give it like
a two point five. Yeah, I was gonna go like
a two two point five. I agree with with everything
you're saying. Um, yeah, there's just there's a ton of
opportunities to include women and commentary on how black women
struggle in Hollywood. Here it wasn't done. You have like
such a like such such tremendously talented Black actresses in

(01:28:19):
this movie, and they don't really get to do much.
But I do feel like this movie does something that
just wasn't done at all at this time, and there
wasn't any money put behind, and the fact that it
exists through like Robert Townsend's like Cheer will Power is
really amazing. Yeah, and and and I was happy to

(01:28:39):
see that there is a female producer. But yeah, ultimately
it's like there's no reason women and where people shouldn't
have been included more meaningfully here, And uh, I wish
it had that said. I really enjoyed the movie. It's
I like I would. If you haven't seen it genuinely,
you should see it. It's really funny and good. Yeah.

(01:29:00):
But two nipples. As far as as far as our
scale goes, I guess, and I will give Who will
I give my nipples to? I will give I will
give one to Helen Martin, and I'll give one to
a Marie Johnson. I'll go the obvious route. I'll do
the same, and I'll give my extra half nipple two
winky dinky dogs iconic. Yeah, Sam, what about you? What

(01:29:26):
are your thoughts? Um? I I do agree with everything
you said. I think for me, it's one of those
things is just like a male black comic. It's I
see I look at the film and I just see
what it what it's done, and to me, I feel

(01:29:49):
like some of his shortcomings is made up for what
it has done for black creative people as a whole
for thirty years. And I think that it's set a standard.
It's set a precedent. It's set a pathway, and I
think that pathway has been used greatly for men and women.
That it's still like a there's still a lot to do,

(01:30:11):
but I do feel like it does do that, and
you know, at the same time, it's just like there's
not there weren't a lot of um just to get
to a Blackmail in seven, writing, producing, and starring in
his own film that is seen by countless theaters across

(01:30:31):
the country. That feet in and of itself, I feel
like is just so impressive and just and just so
meaningful overall that I think that it that some of
the stuff that I think would be if it was
remade today, which you know, we already talked about why
it wouldn't work today, but like if it was remade today,

(01:30:52):
I think those things would not be in it. Right,
So I look at it is like it all will
probably wouldn't have as meaningful of an impact as it
did then, And I feel like what it does there,
I feel like it's just like it's the only thing
I can see when I see the film. But I
I again don't I don't disagree, it's just it's just

(01:31:15):
it's just something that I I can only see its
progress because it's just it's the only thing like it
there's there still hasn't been anything quite like it besides
Scary Movie, which is made by the co writer of
the film you know. Um. So it's a feat that
only two black eyes have ever done in thirty years,

(01:31:38):
and one of them both of them were in the
same movie, you know. So it's it's just that that's
that's what I see. But I also don't disagree with
anything you said. Uh, at the end of the day,
I would give it like, I would give it five nipples,
and I would give all of them to Anthony Hopkins.

(01:32:01):
The twist full disclosure, I might cut that whole human
staying part out of the episode. So if you want to,
I like it, I like I like the mystery I
will be based on based on what you just described,
I'll bump up to a two point five. I'll match

(01:32:24):
Caitlin there because I hadn't. Yeah, like that the fact
that Hollywood Shuffle did like pave the way for black
female comedians, the black female you know tours like. Yeah,
it's very existence is the thing that I find so
as funny. Like to me, it's still one of the
funniest movies I've ever seen. But it's very existence even

(01:32:44):
exceeds how much I love it's humor. Sure, yeah, it's
legacy even though, and that's what kind of like I
wish it had. It definitely has a legacy, and it
definitely did a lot to pave the way and inspire
particularly black filmmakers and just artists of color. I wish
that it had a bigger legacy in terms of I

(01:33:06):
wish more people have seen this movie. But you can
see it's impact truly, like what it was. It was
kind of fun to watch this movie and also and
and be able to be like, oh, you know, I've
seen like a ton of TV and movies that clearly
are pulling from this movie. I just didn't realize it,
right totally. Yeah it's and yeah, it's just it's so

(01:33:30):
I can't stress enough how to any listener that hasn't
seen it, Like, how god damn funny it is? It's
so funny. Oh, I wonder do most of your listeners
have they seen the movie? Like do they tell you
if they've seen the movie? Like some people only listen
to the episode if they've seen the movies. Some people

(01:33:51):
will watch listen to the episode regardless of whether or
not they've watched the movie. Yeah, because most of the
movies you guys do is old. So I was I
was always fascinating, like yeah, because I wonder if I
wonder I wonder if anyone's listeners and hasn't seen it
and still wants to see it, like you know what
I mean, Like it's always I'm always I'm fascinating like that,

(01:34:14):
if you guys have any of that kind of like
ratio if like there's a lot of people that are like, oh, yeah, yeah,
I check out Lolita because I heard it on the
back dep hopefully not that one, but I think that, um,
regardless of it, it's shortcomings that we discussed. I think
this is a movie worth watching. So if you have
not seen it, you have listened to this episode all

(01:34:37):
the way to this point, I would recommend checking the
movie out because again it's still making a lot of
meaningful and important, ineffective points that are still again all
too relevant today. So in that way, like there's some
things that like age poorly about this movie, the you know,
the homophobia and the fat shaming and the kind of

(01:35:00):
ignoring women, but there's other there's many other things about
the ignoring, but other things about it are are still
sadly pretty relevant. So M yeah, um, we'll say m
thank you so much for joining us on this roller

(01:35:20):
coaster of an episode. I've had a blast me too,
so thanks. Here. Where can people check out your your stuff?
Follow you on social media? Yeah? Um, you can follow
me at the sam ike on Twitter, Instagram. Um you

(01:35:44):
can also, um, if you want. I've been trying to
become like the biggest Zoom comic. So if you can
follow me on Zoom, I'm ww dot zoom dot com.
Slash four six seven HP five to f C two
seven w x Y that's my Zoom link. Click on it,

(01:36:06):
I'll join you, get in the group, build my brand. Yeah,
it's gonna happen. I've got a good feeling about this,
and the pivot to Zoom is gonna be huge. It's
gonna be big. I'm gonna be crushing it. I'm gonna
get like I'm already at like I'm already at like

(01:36:26):
three thousand Zoom followers. Y'all just people just sitting there
waiting for me to come on and be like, Yo,
here's my house, and you know what you know who
also is going to hear this, Jill Loft, This is
about to send a zoom request. Did she listen to

(01:36:49):
every episode? Yeah? She listened. She she will listen to
your episode. She doesn't listen. Caitlin has a more thorough
mother than I do. My mom does listen to every episode.
Hi mom, HILARI yo. Mr Durantula, y'all shout out. Uh.
Durantula has always been really tight. I hope you're enjoying Scran. Uh.

(01:37:11):
She doesn't live in Scranton. I always thought, I thought,
I know you're from Scran. No, I've never lived None
of my family has ever lived in Scranton. They live
outside of State College, Pennsylvania. Damn it. Yes, you're right,
you're You tell me that every time, and I always
think you're saying Scran. I always, for some ways, I

(01:37:31):
always think you're saying Scran. Good grief. Well, yeah, so
our moms are cool. That's the moral of this story
and what else. You can follow us on social media
on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can check
out our Patreon a k A Matreon. We have a

(01:37:55):
bunch of episodes there in the back catalog and probably
a lot of Diane Lane on the way, so much
coming up. I can't wait for your listeners to be like, yeo,
I really liked them, but when they got into that
Diane Lane phase, it was really they just lost me.

(01:38:15):
They lost that magic when they started focusing on strictly
Diane Lane. Unfortunately, it is going to inspire us to
change the name of the podcast to the Rectal Cast,
and who knows what that's gonna be about. Even Dianne
really fucked us over. But anyway, if you do want

(01:38:36):
to check out our Matreon material, you can do that
at patreon dot com slash spectol Cast. It's a five
dollar a month subscription and you get access to too
bonus episodes every month, plus all past and future Diane
Lane episodes. Holy sh is this a bonus episode? No,

(01:38:57):
this is a real one. This is a baby Oh shit?
Oh funk? I would have like tried you would have
taken notes? Well, honestly, it's it's fine that it's better

(01:39:20):
that you didn't. Yes, we wouldn't have gotten the Tom
Hardy venom reference if you had taken notes, And that
was just beautiful, pure improv. Yeah. I love Yes and
and ship Man shout out to Dell Close. Also, we've

(01:39:43):
got our public store where you can get all of
our our merch, including maybe a new T shirt design
that is I Love feminism. Well, do you have many?
They're gonna start, They're gonna start really just flying off
the shelf. I'm telling you, I'm telling you the way
to go. You guys got to get into that Venom

(01:40:04):
you gotta get Yeah, that's true. They got that sequel
Woody Harrelson. Oh really, Oh god, Yeah, Allison's gonna be carnage.
He's carnage is like Venom but red pass hard pass um.
But yeah, you can get our merch at t public
dot com. Slash the Bechtel cast and uh with that

(01:40:29):
by everyone. Oh yeah,

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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hollywood Shuffle with Sam Ike