July 14, 2022 • 63 mins
One this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Michael Michelle Pratt discuss If Beale Street Could Talk.
(This episode contains spoilers)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the
Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dorante, my name is
(00:21):
Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast about your favorite movies,
analyzed from an intersectional feminist lens. Ever heard of it?
I've heard of it. And also have you heard of
the Bechtel test, because that's what we use as a
jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion. A lot
(00:41):
of drama surrounding the old Bechdel Test recently. Yeah, and uh,
I was just like, you know what, just let other
people enter the discourse. Well, Alison Bechdel handled handled it. Yes, yea,
And um we've been saying for six years. It's is
a jumping up point for a discussion. Yeah. If anyone
(01:03):
pays attention to the podcast, you know that we actually
barely talk about the Becktel Test and sometimes we forget
about it. Um, but not today, I don't think Um. No.
We we have a very very oft requested movie today.
I think we've gotten request for this movie beginning when
(01:23):
it came out in tween. Is that correct? So, without
further ado, welcome to the if Beal Street could talk
episode of the Backdel Cast. Indeed, but wait, shall we
say what the Bechdel test is? Just for the sake
of being thorough, we forgot to do that. Yeah, I'll
say it's so fast. Here's a media metric created by
(01:44):
queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Becktel Wallace Test,
in which our version is that two people of a
marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak
to each other, and the conversation has to be about
something other than a man. Ideally for a narratively meaningful
conversation at the end happens in this movie. Tell you
what happens in this movie? Yeah. So this is a
(02:06):
very frequently requested movie, and like all frequently requested movies,
we waited multiple years for basically no reason. Uh to
cover it, um, But we have an incredible guest today,
a returning guest. She's a film student culture writer. She's
had work published in Harper's Bazaar, among other publications. You
(02:28):
remember her from our episode on widows. It's Michael Michelle Pratt.
Welcome back back. You're glad to be back. What area
tell us about your relationship, your history with If Beal
Street could talk. Yeah, so I thowt um in greats.
I saw my mom. Um, I think like Opening Night,
(02:52):
probably like a like a nice sized crowd and um,
and I really loved it and so it's probably quite
ached at and sm lovely Jamie, what about you? Pretty
short story. I've seen the movie before. I saw it
shortly after it came out. I don't think I saw
(03:13):
it in theaters. Um, but I did see it out
of theaters. It's so beautiful, it's so well done. I
love Barry Jenkins, and I had not I was hoping, um,
Cards on the Table. I was hoping that I would
have time to read the book before we recorded today.
I did not. Um, this is not a James Baldwin
(03:35):
book that I have read. But my understanding is that
the movie is a very close adaptation. But yeah, I mean,
I I really enjoyed the movie when I saw it.
It was lovely to revisit. Especially. I feel like because
since this movie came out, I guess four years ago,
so many of the actors in this movie have blown
up like exponentially, and so you're like, oh my god,
(03:59):
wait that's Teana Paris, Like just I don't know. It
was fun to go back and be like, wow, everyone
in this movie is the most famous person in the
world now. Um, So that was a treat as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
What's your history with this movie, Caitlin, Very similar to yours, Jamie.
I didn't see it in theaters, but I remember the
buzz around it, buzz especially around the awards season. So
(04:24):
I'm bechtel, how's buzz watch? We're like, what's buzzing? How
can we how can we participate in the buzz? I
love participating in the buzz. There's a movie I haven't
seen that's being buzzed about. I feel so left out.
I'm kind of full of ship. I think you actually
genuinely are on. You got your finger on the pulse
and you engaged with the buzz. So I'm usually a
(04:45):
little behind the curve. That's okay, look, we forgive you, thanks.
But yeah, So I saw it um not too long
after it came out, and I thought it was a
very moving film and I'm excited to talk about it today.
It's always funny when we give our relationships with movies
that came out not too long ago. It's always quick.
(05:06):
It's just like yep, I saw it. I was an adult.
I saw it. Should I recap the story. Let's let's
recap the story and Michael Michelle jump in. Whenever I
would be here to add I'll place a trigger warning
at the top here for such things as rape, physical abuse,
(05:30):
and racism. The movie opens on text on the screen.
It's a quote from James Baldwin that says, quote, Beal
Street is a street in New Orleans where my father,
where Lewis Armstrong and the jazz were born. Every black
person in America was born on Beal Street, born in
(05:51):
the black neighborhood of some American city, whether in Jackson, Mississippi,
or in Harlem, New York. Beal Street is our legacy.
This novel deals with the possibility and the possibility the
absolute necessity to give expression to this legacy. Beale Street
is allowed street. It is left to the reader to
discern a meaning in the beating of the drums unquote.
(06:13):
Then we meet Tish played by Kiki Lane and Alonso
a k A. Fannie played by Stefan James. They are
a young couple in love in nineteen seventies New York City.
Ever heard of it? I can I just say really quick,
and I know that I don't want me to get controversial.
At the beginning of the episode, I would say that
(06:35):
New York is kind of a character in this movie.
You could say that, what do we think? I think
that's pretty accurate. I feel like that, Yeah, that's a
good you know, I know it's never been z before,
but I just felt like, you know, so, how did
you got to bake new ground? Do you know you
gotta say controversial you know things? You got it to
(06:56):
shake it up? Oh okay. So we cut to Tish
visiting Fannie in prison. She tells him that she's pregnant,
and I feel like this movie demands more respect than
to say that she's gregnant. I think we need to
she's actually not. I wrote that down as well. I
was like, this maybe the first movie we've covered where
(07:18):
she's not she's not gregnant, she's simply pregnant. I'm glad
we agree. Kind of rare, right, Um, So she tells
him that she's pregnant, and she says not to worry
she and their families will work to get Fannie out
of prison before she gives birth. Tish then tells her
family that she is pregnant, which includes her mom Sharon
(07:42):
played by Regina King Legend, Icon Legend, and an Oscar
For this part she should have yes absolutely, also her
dad Joseph played by Coleman Domingo, another legend who we
talked about most recently in the Zola episode. I also
(08:03):
just wanted to add a quick this performance I think
is amazing, and I love Barry's depiction of the father
figures and I think of him, I think of the
Herschel in Moonlight. I just think it's such a He's
so warm and wonderful here. I just I think it's
so lovely to see. Absolutely, I can't wait to talk
more about that because it's just so nice to see
(08:27):
that whole scene to where her family is immediately so
supportive and so kind. And I feel like we're not,
as viewers were not like conditioned to see that talk
go well with the family and film at all, and
to see Tish be so confident that like she wants
this baby that's not a question at all, and her
(08:47):
family's immediately supportive. It's like, oh, that's very beautiful, because
I also hadn't read the book, and so I was brasing.
I was bracing myself because I've been a conditioned to
watchings like this and be like, oh, they're not they're
not going to accepting And then and then they and
they were still reassuring of her choice. It's your choice,
and we're in we're to take her back. And I
was just like, Oh, that's that's new and really wonderful. Right,
(09:10):
this shouldn't be surprising, but it is, right, like you
at least expect. I'm thinking of like other movies where
a young person is pregnant or gregnant and it's if
not met with hostility, met with like passive aggression or
like some sort of judgment, And that is not Tiss's
family at all. Tissu's family is the greatest. Yeah, truly.
(09:35):
Also there is Tissue's sister, Ernestine, played by Tayana Paris,
and like we said, they are supportive and excited, but
they're still apprehensive, but only because the situation is obviously
not ideal, with Fannie being in prison right now, they
invite Fannie's family over his mom Alice dad Frank, and
(09:57):
two sisters, Sheila and Adrian I think are their names,
most of whom don't seem to like Tish very much.
Fanny's mom in particular, because she's super religious and doesn't
think that Tish is good enough for her son. Vastly
different reaction. Yeah, they all discuss Fanny being in prison
(10:17):
and how they need to find a good lawyer to
get him out of there. We also get some flashbacks
about Tish and Fanny's past. They had grown up together
as best friends. Then they eventually realized their attraction for
each other and they got together romantically. We also learned
that Fannie wants to be an artisanal woodworker, and we
(10:38):
see some of his would sculptures. It's so beautiful too.
It's this is a tiny thing, but it does always
make me laugh when there's an artist in a movie
or a book or anywhere and then you see their
art and you're like, what is that there? You mean,
(11:01):
like Channing Tatum's terrible furniture and magical Michael I was
just thinking. I was like, it's like when Channing Tatum
was making the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Everyone's like,
we've your genius gorgeous, unbelievable, or anytime anyone does stand
up in a movie and they're like genius, visionary and
(11:23):
you're like, this is so bad. I was like, you've
known stand up clearly, you've never never met a comic.
Do you do you write jokes? I don't think you do.
Who writes the jokes that are in a nightmare movies
that like a stand up comic performs because I'm always
just like I've done. I've been hired to write punch
up for movie stand ups before, and it's still challenging
(11:45):
because it's hard to write stand up for someone that
isn't you. I just it's like it's just hard to
make translate. Anyways. In the case of Fannie, I feel
like and and Barry Jenkins is so like known for
having like this amazing eye for detail that I wasn't
surprised but it was neuw only just like his work
is so beautiful and it's films so beautifully And Okay,
(12:05):
I'm done. May even of Channing Tatum's table yet I
think any time it is appropriate to bring it up,
we should bring up how ugly it is. So ugly
it blows my mind to the point where I'm like,
is this commentary and if so, on what on what? Anyway? Yeah,
then we cut back to Tish breaking the news to
(12:26):
Fannie's family that she's pregnant. Fannie's mother does not take
it well. She starts spewing hateful, uber religious rhetoric about
Tish and her baby. Things escalate to shouting and violence
when Fannie's dad hits his wife, and then Fannie's family
storms out. We flash back to Tishe and Fannie sharing
(12:50):
a romantic evening together. They have sex, which is Tish's
first time having sex. A beautiful sex scene, by the way,
just very tasteful, beautifully shot, and one thing I loved
too that it's completely shot from her perspective and she's
not objectified and you're really experiencing it through her eyes,
and I just thought it was beautiful. And one thing
I remember reading or watching an interview and very talking
(13:11):
about he he also that he had approved it by
female colleagues of his and asked female directors their points
of view, and I was just like wow, And I
was like wow, look at you, like, you know, really
taking taking a female protagonists to heart and really, you know,
thinking about the perspective that I was just like, wow,
(13:32):
I really yeah that that scene was so beautifully done
and it felt it felt like it wasn't I think
you're You're totally right, Michael Michelle that it's like the
fact that we see it from her perspective makes all
the difference, and it's I loved it, And there's nudity,
but it's not like exploited it. It's just very tasteful, right,
which has been a huge conversation on online. I was like,
(13:56):
what is how does that word end line? Online listeners?
I have covid uh, But that's been a conversation that
I've I've seen happening quite a bit recently, is like
the nudity in movies and how there are some film
writers who are like, don't be a prude, Like if
it makes sense in the narrative, like why not? And
(14:18):
we've had that discussion and I think from different angles
over the years, but on a case to case basis,
I mean here it's like perfect. I don't know, it's
like you just you just know when it's working and
when it's exploitative based on how the cinematographer and the
director are communicating. Then we learn about Mrs Victoria Rogers,
(14:39):
who has alleged that she was raped by Fannie, which
is why he's currently in jail. But the circumstances of
this incident, such as where Fannie was that night, make
him being the assailant of this crime impossible. But there
is this cop who insists he saw Fannie run from
(15:01):
the scene of the crime. So then Tish and her
mom speak with the lawyer they've hired, Hayward. He tells
them that unfortunately, Fannie's alibi isn't going to hold up
very well in court because it involves a friend of
Fannie's who has a criminal record. Not only that, Victoria
Rogers has disappeared, possibly back to Puerto Rico, which means
(15:25):
Tish has to put up money to pay for special
investigators to find Victoria Rogers, something that she and her
family can't really afford to do, so both Tish and
Fannie feel pretty hopeless. We then flashback to Fannie running
into his friend Daniel Carty played by Brian Tyree Henry.
(15:47):
Another like, Oh, the performances in this movie is just
It's hard to like. Regina King and Brian Tyree Henry
are just I mean, everyone in this movie is unbelievable.
But them and Partaket, Oh my god, Brian Tyree Henry
so much. He's so good. It's also so great is
that the performance is under like fifteen minutes. He's really
(16:07):
in there for such such a limited amount of time,
but that the thing is they able to do with
that time is phenomenal, a testament to his talent. Yeah. Yeah,
it's the scene season. I mean, they're just especially the
scene at the table where they're all it's just fucking unbelievable.
I will watch anything with Brian Tyree Henry in it.
I know that because I watched the New Child's Play.
(16:30):
Oh he's thinking for Chuckie and that one. Oh okay,
sorry you said Child's Play, and I thought Firestarter the
new fire Starters starring Zach Afron. I don't know that
is I was thinking about Chuckie. I was like, hey,
was that get from? And also that's interesting? Wow, Okay,
so I need to watch two horror movie reboots. Um.
(16:54):
Fire Starter only got like on Rotten Tomatoes or something.
I was going to see it because Zach of Ron
is in it, but it was not reverewed very well. Look,
I'll say I un ironically really enjoyed Brian Tyrie Henry's
Child's play. It's not he didn't direct it. He's just
in it. He's looking for Chucky. It's very exciting, and
(17:16):
that's all I have to say about that. And he's
he's just like, I think, one of our one of
our generation's greatest character actors. He's the fucking best, absolutely
so funny. Runs into Daniel. They talk about how they
struggle to find landlords who will rent to them because
this country hates black people. Daniel talks about having been
(17:38):
in prison. He was arrested for stealing a car, something
he did not do. He talks about how horrible it
was in prison. He's crying as he's describing this. Again,
just such a beautiful performance. We cut back to the
stories present. Victoria Rogers has been found. She is in
Puerto Rico and to or someone in her family is
(18:01):
going to need to go there and talk to Victoria.
The date of Fanny's child is getting closer, tissues pregnancy
is showing than. We get some more flashbacks of Tishe
and Fannie finally finding a place to rent that a
real estate agent played by Dave Franco shows them. I
was like, is that Dave Franco, Hey, hey, just like, Okay,
(18:23):
I guess it's interesting. Yeah, that that scene is also
so lovely that I mean, the chemistry between Fannie and
and Tish is just so beautiful, beautiful. One thing that
I also really loved too is that even though the
sith matter is so heavy, there is able to find
this really nice balance between alternating between timelines where you're
(18:45):
able to also feel feel the levity of them following
in love, so it doesn't feel it's still soul crushing,
but it's not so heavy, and so it's balanced not
really nicely as you're watching the two corresponding timelines. So yeah,
they're totally and that kind of switching between different tones
is also like handled really well and it never feels jarring.
It's just, like, like you said, a good balance for sure. Okay.
(19:10):
So Titie and Fannie they're about to start a life together.
But that night Fawannnie has a run in with the
cop who will eventually claim he saw Fannie fleeing from
the scene of the rape of Victoria Rogers. Later that
night is the night that Titian and Fannie's baby is conceived,
(19:30):
and then Tish's mom, Alice, arrives in Puerto Rico to
talk to Victoria, but it doesn't go well. Victoria is
very traumatized and then she disappears again, so the trial
has to be postponed. That scene, I mean, we'll talk
about that scene, but everyone's performance that but less particularly
Regina King. But just uh uh that I'm very excited
(19:54):
to talk about. I mean not excited. It's an incredibly
painful scene, but adaptation wise, very interested to discuss that
when when we get there, because I think that Barry
Jenkins just like made so many incredible, thoughtful choices in
that scene. So the trial has to be postponed. Fannie
(20:16):
is desperate to be out of prison soon, but things
again don't seem very hopeful. Meanwhile, Tish gives birth to
a healthy baby, and then we cut two years later
and the movie ends with Tish and their son, Fannie Jr.
Who I think is like four years old by this point.
(20:37):
They are visiting Fannie Senior, who is still in prison.
He has taken a plea but is still serving time.
So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a
quick break and we will come back to discuss and
(21:03):
we are back. Is there anywhere in particular we would
like to start, Michael Michelle, is there anything sticking out
to you? Um one thing that I was thinking about
for some reason, I don't know why, but was the
slap between um Funny's mom and I find that whole
secrets interesting because we want to don't see them after that.
(21:24):
And then also just the friction between his parents so interesting,
and also because he's clearly not religious but his mother is,
and I just I think it's so interesting. And I
also remember saying in the theater and the visceral reaction
everyone around me was so interesting, and so I did
I find, Yeah, that's interesting. I was curious to that
was of the two, like in the criticism of this movie,
(21:44):
because I know that that definitely happens in the book
and was kept in the movie. And I saw some
writers that felt that it was good that it was
kept in others that were like, we didn't need it. Uh,
I'm curious what you both think. On one hand, I
was like, I see why I guess to stay faithful,
(22:07):
and also because of the time period. Then I was
also like, this is also deeper, gultful just to watch.
And I was just like hiding behind my hands watching it,
and I was, I mean, I got everything leading up
to it. I feel I feel like I've met women
like that that are very, very religious and um, and
so that felt realistic. But just the lap I was like,
I was like, that's kind of been a captivaby, especially
because we see Fannie's dad again hanging out with Titia's dad,
(22:33):
and no one seems to be challenging that he's abusive
to his spouse. I don't know. I don't think it's
like portrayed in the movie as if he is right
to do it, and it feels like it's the way
it's framed in the movie, which based on what and
again I have not read the book, so I can't
speak to this personally, but based on criticism I was
(22:53):
reading in the book, it's kind of presented more matter
of factly, because just generally in the seventy domestic abuse
was treated more matter of factly, particularly by male writers.
But in the movie, if it feels like it's almost
used as this character who we've only seen be horrible
to Tish, who we love, and then something horrible happens
(23:17):
to her and it introduces a shade of gray to
her character. But then it's like it never comes back,
it's never addressed, and the perpetrator of that violence appears
again and it's as if nothing happened. And if that's
in that case, yeah, it just didn't I don't know
if there if that was aiming at commentary, it didn't
(23:38):
super hit for me, and it just felt like we
saw domestic violence. One thing I was also thinking about
was I was thinking about James Balden. I know that
and a lot of its writing. Like I remember there
was this one essay that I read. I think it's
like the fire next time I think it's called and
he's talking about kind of like I mean, I know
that he was like an assistant passed down with time.
He was of religious and then he kind of made
away and kind of felt like that religion kind of
(24:01):
withholding like people back and that and that and that,
Um that was like a hindrance. And then he kind
of felt like and like getting go away from religion
was kind of freeing for him. Until I was wondering
if for him as a writer, um, having Fannie's mom
be the brunt of that and then never seen again
was his own commentary unreligion kind of matter of fact, Lee, Yeah, yeah,
(24:24):
that's possible. I feel like the movie presents two reactions
to Fannie's mom's behavior, and it feels to me like
the reaction of her being struck violently and abused is like,
that's not how we do it. But Tisha's reaction when
she says, just like that was the most terrible thing
(24:46):
anyone has ever said to me, and then she gets
called a dried up yellow cunt, which did make me
giggle a little bit. Ship You're just like, oh my
word language. Yeah, sorry everyone that you heard me say that.
But um, I was, I mean I was. I know
(25:08):
you were quoting the movie, but I'm wondering if the
movie is saying Tissue's response is the way to handle
this pious, toxic behavior from Fannie's mom. I don't know. Yeah,
I just feel like it could have been maybe taken
out and we could have just had like a verbal
(25:29):
kind of I agree that you could have gotten the
same effect, And I do think it's also like I'm
not like ragging on James Baldwin here. It's like, I
feel like the effect is far more startling when you
see it on screen and in a movie where other
where Barry Jenkins chose to adjust a couple of moments
(25:53):
and scenes for eighteen audiences. I was a little confused
why that. I mean, I would be interest did in here.
I couldn't find a quote about it on his reasoning
behind that choice. But I mean in general, it's like, yeah,
someone could have said something just as awful back to her,
and something cutting and cruel that could have really hurt
her and produced the same effect. I wanted to talk
(26:19):
about broadly how this movie and its representation of black
characters and a black family, we see things that we
don't normally get to see on screen because so often
what we're seeing is harmful stereotypes and tropes usually perpetuated
(26:40):
by white filmmakers. For example, we see a black nuclear family,
particularly titious family who are warm, loving, unconditionally supportive of
each other. We see a black mother and black father
being tender and supportive of their daughter. Too often we see,
like you know, a broken home where the parents are
(27:03):
abusive to each other and or to their children. Maybe
there's no father in the picture at all, and there's
never any acknowledgement of why fathers and children are separated.
So like the carcerol state is not addressed. It's made
to seem like a choice as opposed to something that
is like cooked directly into white supremacy exactly. Um. So
(27:27):
we see again, just like this warm, supportive love in
this family. We also see this warm, gentle, romantic love
between two young black people in Tishe and Fannie. We
see men opening up to each other and talking about
their feelings and their trauma. In that scene between Fannie
(27:49):
and Daniel. It's beautiful and you and you see many
complicated and loving relationships between black women as well. I
mean you get even though again it's like Tanna Paris
is not in this movie very much, but anytime you
see her and Tish together, it is supportive as is kind.
(28:13):
You know that Tish's mother would do anything for her
because you see it and everyone, I mean yeah, even
though because this is not like a particularly long movie,
I feel like the like economy of everything that Barry
Jenkins is doing is so like efficient and cool, and
the actors are doing this incredible job because even when
you don't see two characters together very frequently, you still
(28:35):
understand what they're bond is for the most part, And
I think one thing that's really great is he is
he really hones in on the on the theme of
community and and and I think because he's a black
clam maker and being immersed in black community interesting that
that's how we're able to get by and then it's
a pitotal to the core of being able to survive.
My fantasy is as having community and when you're you're
(28:59):
maybe not a blacklam give an understand and that and
and I think that's very that comes through very clearly.
Uh for sure. There's a number of kind of voiceover
monologues from Tish to that effect, which I think most
of them are pulled pretty closely from the book. This
(29:19):
is I just didn't know this. This is also James
Baldwin's only novel that's narrated by a female character. Interested
yep um because a lot of this movie is pretty
direct commentary on the legal system, cops, incarceration, the inherent
racism within those institutions. And she's talking about how like
(29:45):
the odds are just so stacked against them, and the
fact that this is a movie about Fannie getting arrested
and incarcerated for a crime he did not commit because
a racist cop who works within a racist institution and
who had specifically targeted and established a vendetta against Fannie,
(30:06):
puts him in the police lineup for again a crime
he could not have committed. And there's all this commentary
on how you know, it's up to the accused to
prove and pay for proving the irregularity and improbability of
this sequence of events, and such a big hurdle for
(30:27):
the families is like trying to find good legal representation
and finding a lawyer who will care enough about their case,
and how that's a huge struggle. And even when they
do find a lawyer who cares about their case, it's
still like a small journey for that character to realize
(30:48):
exactly how stacked the odds are against Fannie. Which that
was just like another that character is barely on screen
and it's not like we need him on screen very long,
but it's like you do get at that moment of
him and it's like, oh my god, dude, you're a lawyer,
you should know this, um. But like that's you know,
very based in reality of like a white lawyer probably
(31:13):
wasn't thinking about that at all, like then and often
now so and and then also like I don't know
just how much this story naturally references issues that you
don't really see spoken about in movies or really much
of anywhere. I also thought it was like really moving
(31:33):
and efficient and cool how they addressed racism within real
estate too, and how that's like explicitly addressed in the
text and also still like moves the story forward, and
that seems lovely this movie just it's accomplishing so much
and providing so much poignant commentary on racism, but also
(31:58):
like having these moments of levity, like you said, Michael Michelle,
and having so much of the movie be about black
love and black community. And I want to share a
quote from Barry Jenkins from an interview the cast and
crew of this film did at the Toronto International Film
(32:20):
Festival where this movie premiered, and Barry said that the
film is quote a very pure story about black love,
black life, black family, black community that's rooted in reality.
To be black and conscious is to know that at
(32:40):
any moment, your joy can be taken away from you.
And I think this movie rides on that wavelength where
you're going to experience great joyous highs and at the
turn of a dime, the very very real lows of
being black in America. I was even thinking about when
they're linking for department with Dave frank Go and and
(33:00):
and Fannie's having him helped like carry the pretend fridge
and and and that kind of and even after like
talking about their harship of the real estate, but there's
still that sweet moment of them like looking for the
apartment and all that. Then I was also thinking about, like,
I don't know if you all have seen Selvie's Love
looked at the Thompson and um Namdi asom Law and
all or heard of it. They're not really similar at all,
(33:22):
but it um when they look about that movie, it's
kind of talking about like yes, like, yes, there are
issues being black and it's hard in America, but but
they're but there's still like everyday life happens inside of
that struggle and and like and we're still leakding doing
normal things, which allows it to avoid the like tragedy
porn exactly kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, And I like that.
(33:45):
I mean, we've we've touched on this a little bit
when we were talking about Fannie's family, but you you
get like not just this movie that centers black love
and black community, like everyone is coming from a different place,
like through Fannie's um and through his family, you they
have like a totally different perspective on life that seems
(34:06):
like maybe not as healthy for their kids. But it's
like there is a variety in the in people that
you're seeing. And again, it's just like amazing how many
characters are in this movie while you still know exactly
who they are and like there. I mean, it's just
it's very special. I really like it. And I was also,
um not to I mean, I feel like we talked,
(34:28):
we talked about this sometimes where we like hand it
to uh Man for like writing a female character that
like isn't horrible, So not to do that. However, I
do think that it is worth mentioning uh that this is,
you know, a female protagonist adapted from a male writer
(34:51):
by a male writer, and it works because she's being
treated thoughtfully and like she's a protagonist. Like yeah, I
have a quote from Barry Jenkins here from an NPR
ever Heard of It interview um where he was asked
to just sort of talk about Tish a little bit,
(35:12):
And the way that the headline is framed is on
why a character like Tish, a woman both soft and tough,
may seem unusual. Um, And Barry Jenkins says, I think
the part of why the character may seem unusual, you know,
I can't say this the first character who has exhibited
those qualities. That might be the first character who looks
like key Key Lane and who walks on screen with
(35:34):
her natural hair. But I think what I see in
that is authors like James Baldwin have been writing these
characters for decades, you know, but authors like James Baldwin
haven't been adapted into feature films as often as their peers.
The characters exist, and it's incumbent upon people like me
to bring them to the screen. So again, I love
it great, and it's like there there is there are
(35:56):
so many great female characters in this story. Which should
we get to the assault talk? Yes, might as well.
All right, well this isn't gonna feel good, gang, but
here we are. We'll take a break afterward and recover, okay. Um.
(36:20):
So yeah, I mean I just wanted to open up
that discussion starting with a little more from Barry Jenkins,
because this is it sounds like an adaptation, not even
like change, but just focal adjustment that sounds like it
was really thoughtful and effective. Again, I have not read
the book, based on what I have read around this movie. Originally,
(36:45):
Victoria is presented not as a villain, but as more
of an antagonist than she's presented as in the movie.
Interesting because her I mean, she picks uh fanni out
of a lineup and then it's difficult to get in
contact with her, And so I think that in the
book it is framed a little more like it is
(37:07):
more her fault that this trial is delayed so much, um,
in addition to obviously the fucking cop who set him up.
But my understanding is it's presented a little less sympathetically
towards Victoria, which Barry Jenkins I think really really thoughtfully
(37:28):
shows incredible empathy for this character while not really changing
that much about the text. It's all about, like the
performance between Emily Rios and Regina King. So I wanted
to share a quipe with him about his thought process
on portraying that. So same NPR interview. So sorry, uh,
(37:54):
look our tax dollars. I think maybe I actually don't know.
Um okay, he says uh when asked how he chose
to depict the character of Victoria. He says, quote, I
think the moment that Mr Baldwin published the novel is
a very different moment than the moment the film is
arriving in. I think that in the early nineteen seventies,
(38:14):
the semantics, the complications of what Mr Baldwin was depicting,
we're maybe more round it, and I think they're much
sharper now. In context. Fannie is not falsely accused of anything.
He's chosen out of a police lineup. He's placed in
a police lineup by an officer who very clearly has
a very racist bent. And so for me, when you
unpack it that way, it was clear that Victoria Rogers
(38:37):
was not the antagonist. I think all these things are
set up, all these characters are set up in a
way that you do empathize with all of them. And
so for me, it wasn't a challenge at all to
understand that she had just as much a right to
speak as Regina King, and she had just as much
a right to her humanity as Fannie. Yeah. I think
(38:57):
because the character, particularly Tish, her mom, her sister, who
have a couple of different conversations about this, they all
believe that Victoria Rogers was raped. It's not as though
they don't believe that. It's just that based on the facts,
it could not have been Fanny. But because of this
(39:19):
racist cop and the vendetta he has against Fanny, and
she's you know, just severely traumatized by what happened to her,
she makes this false accusation, which, for the sake of
the story we are following, is incredibly frustrating, and it
means that an innocent man is incarcerated for years. But
(39:41):
the movie acknowledges that this traumatized woman is being manipulated
by a racist cop. Ernestine says, you know, I believe
she was raped, but she has no idea who did it.
Fanny was presented to her as the rapist, and it
was easier for her to say yes than to relive
the thing. Um. So I think that characterization in that context,
(40:06):
it presents it in such a way that, um, you know,
it's not as though, like, oh, this woman is just
making up being assaulted because thanks to rape culture, that's
what a lot of people assume women do frequently, right,
So that is completely avoided, which I really really appreciated,
and you get kind of yet another angle on the
(40:29):
ways in which American cops fail people, where it's not
only is he intentionally failing Fannie and setting him up
for his life to be destroyed because he's racist, he's
also setting Victoria up for her life to be destroyed
by being so deeply ineffective and so heartless towards victims
(40:51):
of assault, Like he doesn't give a shit what happened
to her. He's using her to carry out his vendetta
against Fannie. It's one one one thing that I do.
I really appreciate it. It's it's very clear sitated that
that that that that they're both equally victims, and that
he and that he's just taking these two victims and
and paying them being at each other, just just just
(41:12):
hurt one and then and then resulting in hurting and
ruining both of them. And it's very clear that the
system care about women or black men. And I like that.
That's very clear. Absolutely, And and I've like, yeah, Regina
King's performance in that scene, I feel like the writing
is amazing, but it's just like I feel like you
(41:32):
can see through her performance what a hopeless, frustrating situation
it is, because you know that this character does believe Victoria,
and it's just trying to have a conversation that Victoria
is too traumatized to have, and like it's not the
fault of anyone. They're like it it would be easier
(41:55):
to be angry with Victoria, but she's not because she
believes her. And it's just it is like absolutely heartbreaking
to watch and also just very like reflective of real
life dynamics to this day, to this day. Yeah, so
I thought that that, I mean, yeah, and just like
the way that that scene is framed and um played,
(42:19):
I feel like shows an appropriate empathy for Victoria while
also clearly we are rooting for Fannie m Let's take
a break and we will come back for a more discussion,
(42:45):
and we're back. Where shall we go? I would not
mind talking about I want to talk about how, in
addition to all the other commentary that this movie is
affect of re making, labor and class is another thing
that I think the movie addresses responsibly in that there's
(43:09):
a lot of mention of Tissa's family. You know, everyone's
working class. You know, Tissu's dad works at the docks um.
She ends up getting a job in a department store,
at a perfume counter. I don't know if we know
if do we know if Regina King's character works or
(43:30):
what her job is. I can't remember, but I don't remember.
Everyone in the family has a you know, working class job,
and there's often discussion of how they're struggling to pay
for like the special investigators they need to hire. They
you know, can barely afford this trip to Puerto Rico
(43:52):
to talk to Victoria Rogers um tissue works throughout her pregnancy,
and I think we haven't talked about yet, but that
they will. I mean, I would imagine this is mostly
James Baldwin, but the way it's translated to film is
so beautiful and it's like, ah, everything is a perfect metaphor,
the way that Titsu's job at a perfume counter, and
(44:12):
how people of different races feel entitled to her body
in different ways, and it's just yeah, but but just
speaking to your point, Kaitle, I mean she has to
work throughout her pregnancy, yeah, and and just that that
that statement of class and that and that lack of
privilege to have to do labor to be able to
to afford you know, the case in this baby, and
(44:34):
that she has to keep pushing through. Yeah, so I
thought all of that was handled well. And yeah, like
you said, Jimmy, the commentary on black bodies and the
level of like respect and boundaries people have or do
not have, and how you know black bodies have historically
(44:56):
been so exploited and objectified by white people. Um. Yeah,
that was a really effective like metaphor to introduce into
the movie by way of um Titia's job. And then
we have Fannie who found something that he wanted to
do this like you know, woodworking, This would sculpturing and
(45:19):
having this creative pursuit and that he's really good at it,
and the commentary around that because she says that it
saved him from the deaths that awaited the children of
our age. The you know, he found this like passion
that he could really connect to and it explore his
art And I really liked that. Um but just yeah, overall,
(45:41):
the characters constantly worrying about where they're going to find
the money to pay for this defense that they shouldn't
even have to be dealing with in the first place,
because he's been wrongfully accused because of a racist cop
fucking with him. It's frustrating, but you know, again, the
(46:02):
movie handles it very effectively. Yeah, I agree. And then
the last thing I wanted to talk about was the
romance between Tishe and Fannie and just that it's so
sweet and beautiful and pure and you know, we've we've
(46:23):
talked about how black love is something that does not
get depicted on screen very often, and again the way
that it's just like this very supportive and pure love
between these two characters. They were like childhood best friends.
They both came of age, they realized that each other
was very sexy, and they're like, well, we should probably
(46:43):
do something about this, but we turned out so sexy.
We turned out to sexy, and we're already best friends,
so we might as well kiss. We already talked about
like the sex scenes on screen and how they're shot
very tastefully, and yeah, I just I thought the romance
between Tishe and Fawnny was handled very well and it
(47:05):
made me believe in love just a little bit. I know,
I was like, huh, I was like, I don't this
thing might not suck. And I also I love that
it's you're able to tell in this movie that you're
able to have like that this boy next door thing
amongst this movie is just it's just so magical to me,
um and and and and then it just kind of
(47:26):
like slowly washes over you. And I feel like it
washes over the view the way that it does, and
I just think that's really wonderful. It's lovely, it's really beautiful.
It's and the way it's shot is just like so incredible,
and it feels like you're falling in love with them too.
It's really nice. The last thing I wanted to just
(47:46):
mention really quick, because I'm an adaptation head, was the slight,
slight change in the ending of the movie versus the book,
which I was not aware of when I first saw
the movie, but when I was prepping for this episode.
So at the end of the book, Fannie is out
(48:07):
on bail with his trial postponed indefinitely. So it's almost
like this it's hopeful and that he's going to be
able to spend time with his child and with Tish,
but it's also like purgatory, like because you don't know
how long this situation is going to last. Barry Jenkins
chose to end it on a less I guess less ambiguous. No,
(48:32):
I don't know. I just I don't really have a
strong opinion on it either way. I just thought it
was interesting that that was one of his creative choices
to adjust a little bit. Yeah, it makes the ending
feel more bleak, certainly does in the book's ending, but
shop is bleak out there. So I don't have a
(48:55):
strong take out it. I just wanted to mention that
connotation change um, because I could see feeling a number
of ways about it. I think that the way that
the movie ends, I mean, both are grounded in realism.
They're just kind of different, different ways to slice it. Yeah,
I also had read the book, so when I watched it,
I was like, that makes sense. I was like, things
(49:16):
are kind of like a kind to that, and that
makes sense. So, I mean, you know, it tracks. It
would have been nice to see this black narrative end
on a more optimistic note, since a lot of black
stories don't. Yeah, I found I just found it interesting
that Barry Jenkins made a choice to make it a
(49:37):
little more depressing. It was like, right, but I trust
his judgment, you know, of course, So I'm just like,
you know, One thing I also remember reading was that
apparently that Fannie's dad could suicide in the book but
not in the movie. And so I was like, so,
I guess it was like a trade off. Interesting, I
did not see that. It's like, I guess we can
(49:58):
keep Fannie his dad. But I guess we got it.
So I guess it was a good toss up. I
guess we have to add in a bummer element somewhere else.
That's I mean, bummer is a major understatement, obviously. Yeah.
I mean, as we've said many times, we're not known
for our our our book reading. We don't read book
here podcast. I do really want to read the book,
(50:19):
especially because I haven't read a James Baldwin novel. Shout
out to James Baldwin, um a prolific queer Black writer.
I did because I love movie watching so much. I
did watch the documentary on him. I am not your Negro,
but I have yet to read one of his great books.
(50:41):
I had a great I'll shout her out. I had
a great English teacher in high school named Mrs McLaren
who had us read Notes of a Native Son are
freshman year of high school, and she James Baldwin pilled
us early. Nice it work. He's the best. But I
also want to read this back summers here baby, you
(51:05):
got it to download your audio books and and and
go nut nut um. Does anyone else have anything to
say about the film? Everything? Yeah, I feel like, oh,
I guess my one last phrase of this great movie,
you're not going to kind of bring down a little
(51:25):
little bit, but to go back to the I guess
to the treatment it's early down, but to the treatment
of Victoria. Also what I love because of thinking about
the treatment of like of of Psycho Saut with black
men and not black women, and how and how black
men have been wealthy accused, and how and how that
this self could have gone left and um, and kind
(51:46):
of thinking about that history and and and and treating
it also in so much in his court in his
defense that you have to that you have to automatically
feel in eyes. But but they still didn't. And keeping
in mind that New Wanton just thought that was another
great point. They can at that history that but that
you don't have to automatically still balonize And that was
really great. Absolutely, this movie is so beautiful. If you
(52:08):
want to uh fall in love and cry, then watch
it today because it is just fucking gorgeous. And we
also I mean, this is the first Barry Jenkins movie
we've covered, but we are we We are also aware
of the overwhelming number of Moonlight requests. We will become
the Moonlight. Don't you worry. It's Barry Jenkins here here
(52:32):
in the pod. Yeah. Um, this is very much beside
the point. But Barry Jenkins, I feel like you're hot. Yeah. Well,
and also in law married to Lulu Wang, director of
The Farewell Maybe the couple. I love Law. They're so cute.
(52:53):
It's kind of startling what a good idea it is
for them to be married. It's just it's it just
makes sense. I remember where I was when I learned that.
I was like, if you guys want to cold direct something,
I just feel like he would all be really grateful.
As as society culturally we need this. I'm just like,
(53:14):
why not? Why not? I also wanted to last shout
out Barry Jenkins related also hot, married, and he released
a series on I think Amazon Prime last year called
The Underground Railroad that was so good and I felt
like was really overlooked. I don't know a lot of
(53:35):
people who have seen it. I feel like Amazon's horrible
at promoting their own shows and fuck Amazon, but that
show is incredible. You should watch it. I feel like
Amazon treats Prime as it. It's kind of like the
throwaway thing that you that you get when by that stuff.
And I'm like, you have like shows and they're good,
just promote them like it's not hot. The content is good,
(53:56):
they're already there. I was like, you gave Barry Jenkins
a thank check. You're gonna want to tell people about it,
you fools. The only show that any like, I don't know,
Amazon shows The Boys. The Boys. I'm tired of hearing
about the Boys. Love to promote the Boys. Look, I'm
not going to watch The Boys. You can't make me,
(54:17):
but I highly highly recommend Underground Dollara. Yes, um, well,
it really came down hard on the Boys and Tantatum's
furniture today. I just don't for your first lidetto over there.
It was like you, Okay, what happened? We're doing great?
What did the Boys ever do to me? I don't know.
(54:39):
I mean, in general, Billy Zanes in that show, I
don't know what I'm so upset about that changes things.
I think for just like an episode, I'll watch that episode, Okay,
I don't know what I'm so mad about. I need
to take a nap. I'm sick. You do you you
have COVID, Jamie, Yeah, need to rest. So let's let's
draw this episode O to a conclusion. Does the movie
(55:03):
pass the Bechtel test? For sure? It does a lot
of the conversations between women, such as like Tissue and
her mom, tishe and her sister. The context is often
about Fannie, but there are exchanges that do pass. And also,
this is one of those movies where you know, not
handily passing the Bechtel test is fine. Not every movie
(55:25):
has to do that because it's doing so much else
and it's saying so much else, and this movie is
doing it anyways, so right, which I speaks to Yeah, Again,
it's like the metric itself is not the liver Die thing.
It's like, this movie has a number of well written,
(55:46):
well thought out characters of all genders who are talking
to each other and it's that whole, that whole level
of discourse. It was like, oh my gosh. I was
just like, I was like, we're taking a cartiage of
a little too literally here. Maybe we all settled down,
maybe we all got outside. Maybe with touch of Grass.
You know. Yeah, Michael Michelle, thank you so much for
(56:10):
returning to the show. It is so lovely to have
you back. Thank you for inviting me. I love y'all.
Y'all they're great. I love the show. I love movies.
You think all, where can we find more of wit?
We didn't do the nipples, Jamie, Jamie, you're so sick.
I have co um so yes nipple scales zero to
(56:34):
five nipples. Based on how the movie fares, looking at
it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this,
I would say like a four point five. And the
only thing I can think to jock four would be
the domestic felt like an unnecessary inclusion of domestic violence
(56:58):
that is also not really I don't know why it
was there really, But other than that, it's a nearly
perfect movie. It's yeah, it's just it's just a really
beautiful story. And as as Barry Jenkins said, this movie
rides that wavelength of like Joyce highs and at the
(57:19):
turn of a dime, very real lows of being black
in America. And I think that this movie handles that
maybe more effectively than any other movie I've seen. I
love the focus on this loving and supportive black family.
I love the focus on this loving and supportive relationship
(57:39):
like romantic relationship between Tishe and Fannie. All the commentary
on the judicial system, policing real estate, and the racism
that's present there class commentary. This movie is just accomplishing
so much, so efficiently, and so beautifully. And I'll give
(58:01):
it four point seven five nipples. I'll give one to Tish,
one to Tissa's mom, Sharon, I will give one to
Barry Jenkins. I'll give one to James Baldwin, and I'll
give my three quarters nipple to Ernestine Tissue's sister. Love it.
(58:27):
I'll meet you there. I I agree that the one
thing that bumped me was keeping domestic violence that felt
like I could have been accomplished in a less triggering way.
Or if you're going to keep it, then make sure
you're commenting on it. We already talked it through. But
this movie is just so beautiful it couldn't make I mean,
Barry Jenkins adapting James Baldwin is like, what more could
(58:50):
you ask for in a movie like? And I feel
like his Barry Jenkins filmmaking like rises to the same
quality of James Baldwin's writing, which is like, like that's
how it's not fair how talented people are sometimes you know,
it's sort of fucked up. Someone just have to be
(59:10):
on podcast, you know, and it doesn't feel good, you know,
um the but it's just like an unbelievable match between
writer and director. Um, and it works so well. Every
character here is so well acted and and you know,
I mean Caitlin did just echo what you're saying. The
(59:32):
number of issues that this movie addresses thoughtfully and seamlessly
is just like kind of incredible in a period piece too,
It is just incredible. And also you just have you
have women at the center of the story and also
a lot of different kinds of women with different perspectives,
(59:53):
and but there is still generally a loving, supportive environment
across the board. So I love this Spoobie. Um, I'm
gonna give it four point seven five. Give one to Tish,
give to one to Brian Tyree, Henry, I'll give one
to Regina King, give one to Tiana Paris, and then
(01:00:16):
I'll give the point seven five two. Barry Jenkins love it.
Michael Michelle I would also give it a point for
seven five. Also because like the slap you know, we said,
like we said, I didn't need to be there. Um,
but yeah, I just I love this movie. I'll keep
rewatching it because, um, it just handles things well and
(01:00:38):
it also still makes me feel warm although it's not
like about this really hard topic, but it's still gives
you like the feeling of warmth, which is like amazing. Yeah,
and just everyone everyone looks great. Uh shut after Stefan
James for looking like that. Thank you for existing, sir, um.
And it just handles so many things really well. Else,
(01:01:00):
I would give one to Tish, one dish to Sharon
and Orgina King for being an icon and possibly the
greatest Chile star of all time. Um oh, I would
give one to Barry jing and and then also one
to Coin Nikas whose name I don't remember, but a
great father figure. And then point seven five to Barry Jakin,
(01:01:22):
Tish's father. You mean, yes, Joseph, Yes, one to Joseph
for for for following impartial all these food steps of
very very Jenkin's great father figures. Yes. Absolutely, Thank you
again Michael Michelle for coming back and chatting about this
movie with us. Where can people follow you? Check out
(01:01:43):
your writing, et cetera. Yes, so I am on Twitter
at Michael. No, that's wrong. I'm on Instagram, like I
have social media and I know what they're called. I
am Michael Michelle with three m h A E L
m h l e with three ears at the end
on Instagram, on films and films on Twitter because I
(01:02:07):
care about women in movies, and um, you can see
me um in our Bizarre and Awards Watch and teen
Vogue and I'm doing some really cool cover story that
I can talk about yet, but they're really fun. Um.
I did some cool work with Awards watched for some
Emmy nominees recently that'll be out soon. Um. I'm still
(01:02:28):
paying at university, how the dollars each year it hopes
of one day get a good degree. So I'll so
I'm still doing that. I'm making a short film and yeah,
oh yeah that's incredible. Yeah. You can find us on
on all the regular places Instagram, Twitter, at backtel Cast,
you can sign up for our Patreon a k A
(01:02:49):
Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast five bucks
a month look at you too, bonus episodes with over
a hundreds in the backlog. Are you running out of
main fee. Well not anymore, to scoot on over to
the matrix, not anymore, okay, and sorry, I have COVID
nineteen um okay uh. And you can check out our
(01:03:13):
merch over at public dot com slash the Bacto cast.
Indeed you can. And with that, should we all take
a stroll down Beal Street. Let's do it together holding hands? Yeah,
you know, as a score swells and there's like a
yellow ceres yes, and the leaves there's it seems like
(01:03:37):
there was always fall foliage. Yes, very autumnal vibes. Oh
so nice. Okay, bye bye, bye bye
On the Bechel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the
Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dorante, my name is
(00:21):
Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast about your favorite movies,
analyzed from an intersectional feminist lens. Ever heard of it?
I've heard of it. And also have you heard of
the Bechtel test, because that's what we use as a
jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion. A lot
(00:41):
of drama surrounding the old Bechdel Test recently. Yeah, and uh,
I was just like, you know what, just let other
people enter the discourse. Well, Alison Bechdel handled handled it. Yes, yea,
And um we've been saying for six years. It's is
a jumping up point for a discussion. Yeah. If anyone
(01:03):
pays attention to the podcast, you know that we actually
barely talk about the Becktel Test and sometimes we forget
about it. Um, but not today, I don't think Um. No.
We we have a very very oft requested movie today.
I think we've gotten request for this movie beginning when
(01:23):
it came out in tween. Is that correct? So, without
further ado, welcome to the if Beal Street could talk
episode of the Backdel Cast. Indeed, but wait, shall we
say what the Bechdel test is? Just for the sake
of being thorough, we forgot to do that. Yeah, I'll
say it's so fast. Here's a media metric created by
(01:44):
queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Becktel Wallace Test,
in which our version is that two people of a
marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak
to each other, and the conversation has to be about
something other than a man. Ideally for a narratively meaningful
conversation at the end happens in this movie. Tell you
what happens in this movie? Yeah. So this is a
(02:06):
very frequently requested movie, and like all frequently requested movies,
we waited multiple years for basically no reason. Uh to
cover it, um, But we have an incredible guest today,
a returning guest. She's a film student culture writer. She's
had work published in Harper's Bazaar, among other publications. You
(02:28):
remember her from our episode on widows. It's Michael Michelle Pratt.
Welcome back back. You're glad to be back. What area
tell us about your relationship, your history with If Beal
Street could talk. Yeah, so I thowt um in greats.
I saw my mom. Um, I think like Opening Night,
(02:52):
probably like a like a nice sized crowd and um,
and I really loved it and so it's probably quite
ached at and sm lovely Jamie, what about you? Pretty
short story. I've seen the movie before. I saw it
shortly after it came out. I don't think I saw
(03:13):
it in theaters. Um, but I did see it out
of theaters. It's so beautiful, it's so well done. I
love Barry Jenkins, and I had not I was hoping, um,
Cards on the Table. I was hoping that I would
have time to read the book before we recorded today.
I did not. Um, this is not a James Baldwin
(03:35):
book that I have read. But my understanding is that
the movie is a very close adaptation. But yeah, I mean,
I I really enjoyed the movie when I saw it.
It was lovely to revisit. Especially. I feel like because
since this movie came out, I guess four years ago,
so many of the actors in this movie have blown
up like exponentially, and so you're like, oh my god,
(03:59):
wait that's Teana Paris, Like just I don't know. It
was fun to go back and be like, wow, everyone
in this movie is the most famous person in the
world now. Um, So that was a treat as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
What's your history with this movie, Caitlin, Very similar to yours, Jamie.
I didn't see it in theaters, but I remember the
buzz around it, buzz especially around the awards season. So
(04:24):
I'm bechtel, how's buzz watch? We're like, what's buzzing? How
can we how can we participate in the buzz? I
love participating in the buzz. There's a movie I haven't
seen that's being buzzed about. I feel so left out.
I'm kind of full of ship. I think you actually
genuinely are on. You got your finger on the pulse
and you engaged with the buzz. So I'm usually a
(04:45):
little behind the curve. That's okay, look, we forgive you, thanks.
But yeah, So I saw it um not too long
after it came out, and I thought it was a
very moving film and I'm excited to talk about it today.
It's always funny when we give our relationships with movies
that came out not too long ago. It's always quick.
(05:06):
It's just like yep, I saw it. I was an adult.
I saw it. Should I recap the story. Let's let's
recap the story and Michael Michelle jump in. Whenever I
would be here to add I'll place a trigger warning
at the top here for such things as rape, physical abuse,
(05:30):
and racism. The movie opens on text on the screen.
It's a quote from James Baldwin that says, quote, Beal
Street is a street in New Orleans where my father,
where Lewis Armstrong and the jazz were born. Every black
person in America was born on Beal Street, born in
(05:51):
the black neighborhood of some American city, whether in Jackson, Mississippi,
or in Harlem, New York. Beal Street is our legacy.
This novel deals with the possibility and the possibility the
absolute necessity to give expression to this legacy. Beale Street
is allowed street. It is left to the reader to
discern a meaning in the beating of the drums unquote.
(06:13):
Then we meet Tish played by Kiki Lane and Alonso
a k A. Fannie played by Stefan James. They are
a young couple in love in nineteen seventies New York City.
Ever heard of it? I can I just say really quick,
and I know that I don't want me to get controversial.
At the beginning of the episode, I would say that
(06:35):
New York is kind of a character in this movie.
You could say that, what do we think? I think
that's pretty accurate. I feel like that, Yeah, that's a
good you know, I know it's never been z before,
but I just felt like, you know, so, how did
you got to bake new ground? Do you know you
gotta say controversial you know things? You got it to
(06:56):
shake it up? Oh okay. So we cut to Tish
visiting Fannie in prison. She tells him that she's pregnant,
and I feel like this movie demands more respect than
to say that she's gregnant. I think we need to
she's actually not. I wrote that down as well. I
was like, this maybe the first movie we've covered where
(07:18):
she's not she's not gregnant, she's simply pregnant. I'm glad
we agree. Kind of rare, right, Um, So she tells
him that she's pregnant, and she says not to worry
she and their families will work to get Fannie out
of prison before she gives birth. Tish then tells her
family that she is pregnant, which includes her mom Sharon
(07:42):
played by Regina King Legend, Icon Legend, and an Oscar
For this part she should have yes absolutely, also her
dad Joseph played by Coleman Domingo, another legend who we
talked about most recently in the Zola episode. I also
(08:03):
just wanted to add a quick this performance I think
is amazing, and I love Barry's depiction of the father
figures and I think of him, I think of the
Herschel in Moonlight. I just think it's such a He's
so warm and wonderful here. I just I think it's
so lovely to see. Absolutely, I can't wait to talk
more about that because it's just so nice to see
(08:27):
that whole scene to where her family is immediately so
supportive and so kind. And I feel like we're not,
as viewers were not like conditioned to see that talk
go well with the family and film at all, and
to see Tish be so confident that like she wants
this baby that's not a question at all, and her
(08:47):
family's immediately supportive. It's like, oh, that's very beautiful, because
I also hadn't read the book, and so I was brasing.
I was bracing myself because I've been a conditioned to
watchings like this and be like, oh, they're not they're
not going to accepting And then and then they and
they were still reassuring of her choice. It's your choice,
and we're in we're to take her back. And I
was just like, Oh, that's that's new and really wonderful. Right,
(09:10):
this shouldn't be surprising, but it is, right, like you
at least expect. I'm thinking of like other movies where
a young person is pregnant or gregnant and it's if
not met with hostility, met with like passive aggression or
like some sort of judgment, And that is not Tiss's
family at all. Tissu's family is the greatest. Yeah, truly.
(09:35):
Also there is Tissue's sister, Ernestine, played by Tayana Paris,
and like we said, they are supportive and excited, but
they're still apprehensive, but only because the situation is obviously
not ideal, with Fannie being in prison right now, they
invite Fannie's family over his mom Alice dad Frank, and
(09:57):
two sisters, Sheila and Adrian I think are their names,
most of whom don't seem to like Tish very much.
Fanny's mom in particular, because she's super religious and doesn't
think that Tish is good enough for her son. Vastly
different reaction. Yeah, they all discuss Fanny being in prison
(10:17):
and how they need to find a good lawyer to
get him out of there. We also get some flashbacks
about Tish and Fanny's past. They had grown up together
as best friends. Then they eventually realized their attraction for
each other and they got together romantically. We also learned
that Fannie wants to be an artisanal woodworker, and we
(10:38):
see some of his would sculptures. It's so beautiful too.
It's this is a tiny thing, but it does always
make me laugh when there's an artist in a movie
or a book or anywhere and then you see their
art and you're like, what is that there? You mean,
(11:01):
like Channing Tatum's terrible furniture and magical Michael I was
just thinking. I was like, it's like when Channing Tatum
was making the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Everyone's like,
we've your genius gorgeous, unbelievable, or anytime anyone does stand
up in a movie and they're like genius, visionary and
(11:23):
you're like, this is so bad. I was like, you've
known stand up clearly, you've never never met a comic.
Do you do you write jokes? I don't think you do.
Who writes the jokes that are in a nightmare movies
that like a stand up comic performs because I'm always
just like I've done. I've been hired to write punch
up for movie stand ups before, and it's still challenging
(11:45):
because it's hard to write stand up for someone that
isn't you. I just it's like it's just hard to
make translate. Anyways. In the case of Fannie, I feel
like and and Barry Jenkins is so like known for
having like this amazing eye for detail that I wasn't
surprised but it was neuw only just like his work
is so beautiful and it's films so beautifully And Okay,
(12:05):
I'm done. May even of Channing Tatum's table yet I
think any time it is appropriate to bring it up,
we should bring up how ugly it is. So ugly
it blows my mind to the point where I'm like,
is this commentary and if so, on what on what? Anyway? Yeah,
then we cut back to Tish breaking the news to
(12:26):
Fannie's family that she's pregnant. Fannie's mother does not take
it well. She starts spewing hateful, uber religious rhetoric about
Tish and her baby. Things escalate to shouting and violence
when Fannie's dad hits his wife, and then Fannie's family
storms out. We flash back to Tishe and Fannie sharing
(12:50):
a romantic evening together. They have sex, which is Tish's
first time having sex. A beautiful sex scene, by the way,
just very tasteful, beautifully shot, and one thing I loved
too that it's completely shot from her perspective and she's
not objectified and you're really experiencing it through her eyes,
and I just thought it was beautiful. And one thing
I remember reading or watching an interview and very talking
(13:11):
about he he also that he had approved it by
female colleagues of his and asked female directors their points
of view, and I was just like wow, And I
was like wow, look at you, like, you know, really
taking taking a female protagonists to heart and really, you know,
thinking about the perspective that I was just like, wow,
(13:32):
I really yeah that that scene was so beautifully done
and it felt it felt like it wasn't I think
you're You're totally right, Michael Michelle that it's like the
fact that we see it from her perspective makes all
the difference, and it's I loved it, And there's nudity,
but it's not like exploited it. It's just very tasteful, right,
which has been a huge conversation on online. I was like,
(13:56):
what is how does that word end line? Online listeners?
I have covid uh, But that's been a conversation that
I've I've seen happening quite a bit recently, is like
the nudity in movies and how there are some film
writers who are like, don't be a prude, Like if
it makes sense in the narrative, like why not? And
(14:18):
we've had that discussion and I think from different angles
over the years, but on a case to case basis,
I mean here it's like perfect. I don't know, it's
like you just you just know when it's working and
when it's exploitative based on how the cinematographer and the
director are communicating. Then we learn about Mrs Victoria Rogers,
(14:39):
who has alleged that she was raped by Fannie, which
is why he's currently in jail. But the circumstances of
this incident, such as where Fannie was that night, make
him being the assailant of this crime impossible. But there
is this cop who insists he saw Fannie run from
(15:01):
the scene of the crime. So then Tish and her
mom speak with the lawyer they've hired, Hayward. He tells
them that unfortunately, Fannie's alibi isn't going to hold up
very well in court because it involves a friend of
Fannie's who has a criminal record. Not only that, Victoria
Rogers has disappeared, possibly back to Puerto Rico, which means
(15:25):
Tish has to put up money to pay for special
investigators to find Victoria Rogers, something that she and her
family can't really afford to do, so both Tish and
Fannie feel pretty hopeless. We then flashback to Fannie running
into his friend Daniel Carty played by Brian Tyree Henry.
(15:47):
Another like, Oh, the performances in this movie is just
It's hard to like. Regina King and Brian Tyree Henry
are just I mean, everyone in this movie is unbelievable.
But them and Partaket, Oh my god, Brian Tyree Henry
so much. He's so good. It's also so great is
that the performance is under like fifteen minutes. He's really
(16:07):
in there for such such a limited amount of time,
but that the thing is they able to do with
that time is phenomenal, a testament to his talent. Yeah. Yeah,
it's the scene season. I mean, they're just especially the
scene at the table where they're all it's just fucking unbelievable.
I will watch anything with Brian Tyree Henry in it.
I know that because I watched the New Child's Play.
(16:30):
Oh he's thinking for Chuckie and that one. Oh okay,
sorry you said Child's Play, and I thought Firestarter the
new fire Starters starring Zach Afron. I don't know that
is I was thinking about Chuckie. I was like, hey,
was that get from? And also that's interesting? Wow, Okay,
so I need to watch two horror movie reboots. Um.
(16:54):
Fire Starter only got like on Rotten Tomatoes or something.
I was going to see it because Zach of Ron
is in it, but it was not reverewed very well. Look,
I'll say I un ironically really enjoyed Brian Tyrie Henry's
Child's play. It's not he didn't direct it. He's just
in it. He's looking for Chucky. It's very exciting, and
(17:16):
that's all I have to say about that. And he's
he's just like, I think, one of our one of
our generation's greatest character actors. He's the fucking best, absolutely
so funny. Runs into Daniel. They talk about how they
struggle to find landlords who will rent to them because
this country hates black people. Daniel talks about having been
(17:38):
in prison. He was arrested for stealing a car, something
he did not do. He talks about how horrible it
was in prison. He's crying as he's describing this. Again,
just such a beautiful performance. We cut back to the
stories present. Victoria Rogers has been found. She is in
Puerto Rico and to or someone in her family is
(18:01):
going to need to go there and talk to Victoria.
The date of Fanny's child is getting closer, tissues pregnancy
is showing than. We get some more flashbacks of Tishe
and Fannie finally finding a place to rent that a
real estate agent played by Dave Franco shows them. I
was like, is that Dave Franco, Hey, hey, just like, Okay,
(18:23):
I guess it's interesting. Yeah, that that scene is also
so lovely that I mean, the chemistry between Fannie and
and Tish is just so beautiful, beautiful. One thing that
I also really loved too is that even though the
sith matter is so heavy, there is able to find
this really nice balance between alternating between timelines where you're
(18:45):
able to also feel feel the levity of them following
in love, so it doesn't feel it's still soul crushing,
but it's not so heavy, and so it's balanced not
really nicely as you're watching the two corresponding timelines. So yeah,
they're totally and that kind of switching between different tones
is also like handled really well and it never feels jarring.
It's just, like, like you said, a good balance for sure. Okay.
(19:10):
So Titie and Fannie they're about to start a life together.
But that night Fawannnie has a run in with the
cop who will eventually claim he saw Fannie fleeing from
the scene of the rape of Victoria Rogers. Later that
night is the night that Titian and Fannie's baby is conceived,
(19:30):
and then Tish's mom, Alice, arrives in Puerto Rico to
talk to Victoria, but it doesn't go well. Victoria is
very traumatized and then she disappears again, so the trial
has to be postponed. That scene, I mean, we'll talk
about that scene, but everyone's performance that but less particularly
Regina King. But just uh uh that I'm very excited
(19:54):
to talk about. I mean not excited. It's an incredibly
painful scene, but adaptation wise, very interested to discuss that
when when we get there, because I think that Barry
Jenkins just like made so many incredible, thoughtful choices in
that scene. So the trial has to be postponed. Fannie
(20:16):
is desperate to be out of prison soon, but things
again don't seem very hopeful. Meanwhile, Tish gives birth to
a healthy baby, and then we cut two years later
and the movie ends with Tish and their son, Fannie Jr.
Who I think is like four years old by this point.
(20:37):
They are visiting Fannie Senior, who is still in prison.
He has taken a plea but is still serving time.
So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a
quick break and we will come back to discuss and
(21:03):
we are back. Is there anywhere in particular we would
like to start, Michael Michelle, is there anything sticking out
to you? Um one thing that I was thinking about
for some reason, I don't know why, but was the
slap between um Funny's mom and I find that whole
secrets interesting because we want to don't see them after that.
(21:24):
And then also just the friction between his parents so interesting,
and also because he's clearly not religious but his mother is,
and I just I think it's so interesting. And I
also remember saying in the theater and the visceral reaction
everyone around me was so interesting, and so I did
I find, Yeah, that's interesting. I was curious to that
was of the two, like in the criticism of this movie,
(21:44):
because I know that that definitely happens in the book
and was kept in the movie. And I saw some
writers that felt that it was good that it was
kept in others that were like, we didn't need it. Uh,
I'm curious what you both think. On one hand, I
was like, I see why I guess to stay faithful,
(22:07):
and also because of the time period. Then I was
also like, this is also deeper, gultful just to watch.
And I was just like hiding behind my hands watching it,
and I was, I mean, I got everything leading up
to it. I feel I feel like I've met women
like that that are very, very religious and um, and
so that felt realistic. But just the lap I was like,
I was like, that's kind of been a captivaby, especially
because we see Fannie's dad again hanging out with Titia's dad,
(22:33):
and no one seems to be challenging that he's abusive
to his spouse. I don't know. I don't think it's
like portrayed in the movie as if he is right
to do it, and it feels like it's the way
it's framed in the movie, which based on what and
again I have not read the book, so I can't
speak to this personally, but based on criticism I was
(22:53):
reading in the book, it's kind of presented more matter
of factly, because just generally in the seventy domestic abuse
was treated more matter of factly, particularly by male writers.
But in the movie, if it feels like it's almost
used as this character who we've only seen be horrible
to Tish, who we love, and then something horrible happens
(23:17):
to her and it introduces a shade of gray to
her character. But then it's like it never comes back,
it's never addressed, and the perpetrator of that violence appears
again and it's as if nothing happened. And if that's
in that case, yeah, it just didn't I don't know
if there if that was aiming at commentary, it didn't
(23:38):
super hit for me, and it just felt like we
saw domestic violence. One thing I was also thinking about
was I was thinking about James Balden. I know that
and a lot of its writing. Like I remember there
was this one essay that I read. I think it's
like the fire next time I think it's called and
he's talking about kind of like I mean, I know
that he was like an assistant passed down with time.
He was of religious and then he kind of made
away and kind of felt like that religion kind of
(24:01):
withholding like people back and that and that and that,
Um that was like a hindrance. And then he kind
of felt like and like getting go away from religion
was kind of freeing for him. Until I was wondering
if for him as a writer, um, having Fannie's mom
be the brunt of that and then never seen again
was his own commentary unreligion kind of matter of fact, Lee, Yeah, yeah,
(24:24):
that's possible. I feel like the movie presents two reactions
to Fannie's mom's behavior, and it feels to me like
the reaction of her being struck violently and abused is like,
that's not how we do it. But Tisha's reaction when
she says, just like that was the most terrible thing
(24:46):
anyone has ever said to me, and then she gets
called a dried up yellow cunt, which did make me
giggle a little bit. Ship You're just like, oh my
word language. Yeah, sorry everyone that you heard me say that.
But um, I was, I mean I was. I know
(25:08):
you were quoting the movie, but I'm wondering if the
movie is saying Tissue's response is the way to handle
this pious, toxic behavior from Fannie's mom. I don't know. Yeah,
I just feel like it could have been maybe taken
out and we could have just had like a verbal
(25:29):
kind of I agree that you could have gotten the
same effect, And I do think it's also like I'm
not like ragging on James Baldwin here. It's like, I
feel like the effect is far more startling when you
see it on screen and in a movie where other
where Barry Jenkins chose to adjust a couple of moments
(25:53):
and scenes for eighteen audiences. I was a little confused
why that. I mean, I would be interest did in here.
I couldn't find a quote about it on his reasoning
behind that choice. But I mean in general, it's like, yeah,
someone could have said something just as awful back to her,
and something cutting and cruel that could have really hurt
her and produced the same effect. I wanted to talk
(26:19):
about broadly how this movie and its representation of black
characters and a black family, we see things that we
don't normally get to see on screen because so often
what we're seeing is harmful stereotypes and tropes usually perpetuated
(26:40):
by white filmmakers. For example, we see a black nuclear family,
particularly titious family who are warm, loving, unconditionally supportive of
each other. We see a black mother and black father
being tender and supportive of their daughter. Too often we see,
like you know, a broken home where the parents are
(27:03):
abusive to each other and or to their children. Maybe
there's no father in the picture at all, and there's
never any acknowledgement of why fathers and children are separated.
So like the carcerol state is not addressed. It's made
to seem like a choice as opposed to something that
is like cooked directly into white supremacy exactly. Um. So
(27:27):
we see again, just like this warm, supportive love in
this family. We also see this warm, gentle, romantic love
between two young black people in Tishe and Fannie. We
see men opening up to each other and talking about
their feelings and their trauma. In that scene between Fannie
(27:49):
and Daniel. It's beautiful and you and you see many
complicated and loving relationships between black women as well. I
mean you get even though again it's like Tanna Paris
is not in this movie very much, but anytime you
see her and Tish together, it is supportive as is kind.
(28:13):
You know that Tish's mother would do anything for her
because you see it and everyone, I mean yeah, even
though because this is not like a particularly long movie,
I feel like the like economy of everything that Barry
Jenkins is doing is so like efficient and cool, and
the actors are doing this incredible job because even when
you don't see two characters together very frequently, you still
(28:35):
understand what they're bond is for the most part, And
I think one thing that's really great is he is
he really hones in on the on the theme of
community and and and I think because he's a black
clam maker and being immersed in black community interesting that
that's how we're able to get by and then it's
a pitotal to the core of being able to survive.
My fantasy is as having community and when you're you're
(28:59):
maybe not a blacklam give an understand and that and
and I think that's very that comes through very clearly.
Uh for sure. There's a number of kind of voiceover
monologues from Tish to that effect, which I think most
of them are pulled pretty closely from the book. This
(29:19):
is I just didn't know this. This is also James
Baldwin's only novel that's narrated by a female character. Interested
yep um because a lot of this movie is pretty
direct commentary on the legal system, cops, incarceration, the inherent
racism within those institutions. And she's talking about how like
(29:45):
the odds are just so stacked against them, and the
fact that this is a movie about Fannie getting arrested
and incarcerated for a crime he did not commit because
a racist cop who works within a racist institution and
who had specifically targeted and established a vendetta against Fannie,
(30:06):
puts him in the police lineup for again a crime
he could not have committed. And there's all this commentary
on how you know, it's up to the accused to
prove and pay for proving the irregularity and improbability of
this sequence of events, and such a big hurdle for
(30:27):
the families is like trying to find good legal representation
and finding a lawyer who will care enough about their case,
and how that's a huge struggle. And even when they
do find a lawyer who cares about their case, it's
still like a small journey for that character to realize
(30:48):
exactly how stacked the odds are against Fannie. Which that
was just like another that character is barely on screen
and it's not like we need him on screen very long,
but it's like you do get at that moment of
him and it's like, oh my god, dude, you're a lawyer,
you should know this, um. But like that's you know,
very based in reality of like a white lawyer probably
(31:13):
wasn't thinking about that at all, like then and often
now so and and then also like I don't know
just how much this story naturally references issues that you
don't really see spoken about in movies or really much
of anywhere. I also thought it was like really moving
(31:33):
and efficient and cool how they addressed racism within real
estate too, and how that's like explicitly addressed in the
text and also still like moves the story forward, and
that seems lovely this movie just it's accomplishing so much
and providing so much poignant commentary on racism, but also
(31:58):
like having these moments of levity, like you said, Michael Michelle,
and having so much of the movie be about black
love and black community. And I want to share a
quote from Barry Jenkins from an interview the cast and
crew of this film did at the Toronto International Film
(32:20):
Festival where this movie premiered, and Barry said that the
film is quote a very pure story about black love,
black life, black family, black community that's rooted in reality.
To be black and conscious is to know that at
(32:40):
any moment, your joy can be taken away from you.
And I think this movie rides on that wavelength where
you're going to experience great joyous highs and at the
turn of a dime, the very very real lows of
being black in America. I was even thinking about when
they're linking for department with Dave frank Go and and
(33:00):
and Fannie's having him helped like carry the pretend fridge
and and and that kind of and even after like
talking about their harship of the real estate, but there's
still that sweet moment of them like looking for the
apartment and all that. Then I was also thinking about, like,
I don't know if you all have seen Selvie's Love
looked at the Thompson and um Namdi asom Law and
all or heard of it. They're not really similar at all,
(33:22):
but it um when they look about that movie, it's
kind of talking about like yes, like, yes, there are
issues being black and it's hard in America, but but
they're but there's still like everyday life happens inside of
that struggle and and like and we're still leakding doing
normal things, which allows it to avoid the like tragedy
porn exactly kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, And I like that.
(33:45):
I mean, we've we've touched on this a little bit
when we were talking about Fannie's family, but you you
get like not just this movie that centers black love
and black community, like everyone is coming from a different place,
like through Fannie's um and through his family, you they
have like a totally different perspective on life that seems
(34:06):
like maybe not as healthy for their kids. But it's
like there is a variety in the in people that
you're seeing. And again, it's just like amazing how many
characters are in this movie while you still know exactly
who they are and like there. I mean, it's just
it's very special. I really like it. And I was also,
um not to I mean, I feel like we talked,
(34:28):
we talked about this sometimes where we like hand it
to uh Man for like writing a female character that
like isn't horrible, So not to do that. However, I
do think that it is worth mentioning uh that this is,
you know, a female protagonist adapted from a male writer
(34:51):
by a male writer, and it works because she's being
treated thoughtfully and like she's a protagonist. Like yeah, I
have a quote from Barry Jenkins here from an NPR
ever Heard of It interview um where he was asked
to just sort of talk about Tish a little bit,
(35:12):
And the way that the headline is framed is on
why a character like Tish, a woman both soft and tough,
may seem unusual. Um, And Barry Jenkins says, I think
the part of why the character may seem unusual, you know,
I can't say this the first character who has exhibited
those qualities. That might be the first character who looks
like key Key Lane and who walks on screen with
(35:34):
her natural hair. But I think what I see in
that is authors like James Baldwin have been writing these
characters for decades, you know, but authors like James Baldwin
haven't been adapted into feature films as often as their peers.
The characters exist, and it's incumbent upon people like me
to bring them to the screen. So again, I love
it great, and it's like there there is there are
(35:56):
so many great female characters in this story. Which should
we get to the assault talk? Yes, might as well.
All right, well this isn't gonna feel good, gang, but
here we are. We'll take a break afterward and recover, okay. Um.
(36:20):
So yeah, I mean I just wanted to open up
that discussion starting with a little more from Barry Jenkins,
because this is it sounds like an adaptation, not even
like change, but just focal adjustment that sounds like it
was really thoughtful and effective. Again, I have not read
the book, based on what I have read around this movie. Originally,
(36:45):
Victoria is presented not as a villain, but as more
of an antagonist than she's presented as in the movie.
Interesting because her I mean, she picks uh fanni out
of a lineup and then it's difficult to get in
contact with her, And so I think that in the
book it is framed a little more like it is
(37:07):
more her fault that this trial is delayed so much, um,
in addition to obviously the fucking cop who set him up.
But my understanding is it's presented a little less sympathetically
towards Victoria, which Barry Jenkins I think really really thoughtfully
(37:28):
shows incredible empathy for this character while not really changing
that much about the text. It's all about, like the
performance between Emily Rios and Regina King. So I wanted
to share a quipe with him about his thought process
on portraying that. So same NPR interview. So sorry, uh,
(37:54):
look our tax dollars. I think maybe I actually don't know.
Um okay, he says uh when asked how he chose
to depict the character of Victoria. He says, quote, I
think the moment that Mr Baldwin published the novel is
a very different moment than the moment the film is
arriving in. I think that in the early nineteen seventies,
(38:14):
the semantics, the complications of what Mr Baldwin was depicting,
we're maybe more round it, and I think they're much
sharper now. In context. Fannie is not falsely accused of anything.
He's chosen out of a police lineup. He's placed in
a police lineup by an officer who very clearly has
a very racist bent. And so for me, when you
unpack it that way, it was clear that Victoria Rogers
(38:37):
was not the antagonist. I think all these things are
set up, all these characters are set up in a
way that you do empathize with all of them. And
so for me, it wasn't a challenge at all to
understand that she had just as much a right to
speak as Regina King, and she had just as much
a right to her humanity as Fannie. Yeah. I think
(38:57):
because the character, particularly Tish, her mom, her sister, who
have a couple of different conversations about this, they all
believe that Victoria Rogers was raped. It's not as though
they don't believe that. It's just that based on the facts,
it could not have been Fanny. But because of this
(39:19):
racist cop and the vendetta he has against Fanny, and
she's you know, just severely traumatized by what happened to her,
she makes this false accusation, which, for the sake of
the story we are following, is incredibly frustrating, and it
means that an innocent man is incarcerated for years. But
(39:41):
the movie acknowledges that this traumatized woman is being manipulated
by a racist cop. Ernestine says, you know, I believe
she was raped, but she has no idea who did it.
Fanny was presented to her as the rapist, and it
was easier for her to say yes than to relive
the thing. Um. So I think that characterization in that context,
(40:06):
it presents it in such a way that, um, you know,
it's not as though, like, oh, this woman is just
making up being assaulted because thanks to rape culture, that's
what a lot of people assume women do frequently, right,
So that is completely avoided, which I really really appreciated,
and you get kind of yet another angle on the
(40:29):
ways in which American cops fail people, where it's not
only is he intentionally failing Fannie and setting him up
for his life to be destroyed because he's racist, he's
also setting Victoria up for her life to be destroyed
by being so deeply ineffective and so heartless towards victims
(40:51):
of assault, Like he doesn't give a shit what happened
to her. He's using her to carry out his vendetta
against Fannie. It's one one one thing that I do.
I really appreciate it. It's it's very clear sitated that
that that that that they're both equally victims, and that
he and that he's just taking these two victims and
and paying them being at each other, just just just
(41:12):
hurt one and then and then resulting in hurting and
ruining both of them. And it's very clear that the
system care about women or black men. And I like that.
That's very clear. Absolutely, And and I've like, yeah, Regina
King's performance in that scene, I feel like the writing
is amazing, but it's just like I feel like you
(41:32):
can see through her performance what a hopeless, frustrating situation
it is, because you know that this character does believe Victoria,
and it's just trying to have a conversation that Victoria
is too traumatized to have, and like it's not the
fault of anyone. They're like it it would be easier
(41:55):
to be angry with Victoria, but she's not because she
believes her. And it's just it is like absolutely heartbreaking
to watch and also just very like reflective of real
life dynamics to this day, to this day. Yeah, so
I thought that that, I mean, yeah, and just like
the way that that scene is framed and um played,
(42:19):
I feel like shows an appropriate empathy for Victoria while
also clearly we are rooting for Fannie m Let's take
a break and we will come back for a more discussion,
(42:45):
and we're back. Where shall we go? I would not
mind talking about I want to talk about how, in
addition to all the other commentary that this movie is
affect of re making, labor and class is another thing
that I think the movie addresses responsibly in that there's
(43:09):
a lot of mention of Tissa's family. You know, everyone's
working class. You know, Tissu's dad works at the docks um.
She ends up getting a job in a department store,
at a perfume counter. I don't know if we know
if do we know if Regina King's character works or
(43:30):
what her job is. I can't remember, but I don't remember.
Everyone in the family has a you know, working class job,
and there's often discussion of how they're struggling to pay
for like the special investigators they need to hire. They
you know, can barely afford this trip to Puerto Rico
(43:52):
to talk to Victoria Rogers um tissue works throughout her pregnancy,
and I think we haven't talked about yet, but that
they will. I mean, I would imagine this is mostly
James Baldwin, but the way it's translated to film is
so beautiful and it's like, ah, everything is a perfect metaphor,
the way that Titsu's job at a perfume counter, and
(44:12):
how people of different races feel entitled to her body
in different ways, and it's just yeah, but but just
speaking to your point, Kaitle, I mean she has to
work throughout her pregnancy, yeah, and and just that that
that statement of class and that and that lack of
privilege to have to do labor to be able to
to afford you know, the case in this baby, and
(44:34):
that she has to keep pushing through. Yeah, so I
thought all of that was handled well. And yeah, like
you said, Jimmy, the commentary on black bodies and the
level of like respect and boundaries people have or do
not have, and how you know black bodies have historically
(44:56):
been so exploited and objectified by white people. Um. Yeah,
that was a really effective like metaphor to introduce into
the movie by way of um Titia's job. And then
we have Fannie who found something that he wanted to
do this like you know, woodworking, This would sculpturing and
(45:19):
having this creative pursuit and that he's really good at it,
and the commentary around that because she says that it
saved him from the deaths that awaited the children of
our age. The you know, he found this like passion
that he could really connect to and it explore his
art And I really liked that. Um but just yeah, overall,
(45:41):
the characters constantly worrying about where they're going to find
the money to pay for this defense that they shouldn't
even have to be dealing with in the first place,
because he's been wrongfully accused because of a racist cop
fucking with him. It's frustrating, but you know, again, the
(46:02):
movie handles it very effectively. Yeah, I agree. And then
the last thing I wanted to talk about was the
romance between Tishe and Fannie and just that it's so
sweet and beautiful and pure and you know, we've we've
(46:23):
talked about how black love is something that does not
get depicted on screen very often, and again the way
that it's just like this very supportive and pure love
between these two characters. They were like childhood best friends.
They both came of age, they realized that each other
was very sexy, and they're like, well, we should probably
(46:43):
do something about this, but we turned out so sexy.
We turned out to sexy, and we're already best friends,
so we might as well kiss. We already talked about
like the sex scenes on screen and how they're shot
very tastefully, and yeah, I just I thought the romance
between Tishe and Fawnny was handled very well and it
(47:05):
made me believe in love just a little bit. I know,
I was like, huh, I was like, I don't this
thing might not suck. And I also I love that
it's you're able to tell in this movie that you're
able to have like that this boy next door thing
amongst this movie is just it's just so magical to me,
um and and and and then it just kind of
(47:26):
like slowly washes over you. And I feel like it
washes over the view the way that it does, and
I just think that's really wonderful. It's lovely, it's really beautiful.
It's and the way it's shot is just like so incredible,
and it feels like you're falling in love with them too.
It's really nice. The last thing I wanted to just
(47:46):
mention really quick, because I'm an adaptation head, was the slight,
slight change in the ending of the movie versus the book,
which I was not aware of when I first saw
the movie, but when I was prepping for this episode.
So at the end of the book, Fannie is out
(48:07):
on bail with his trial postponed indefinitely. So it's almost
like this it's hopeful and that he's going to be
able to spend time with his child and with Tish,
but it's also like purgatory, like because you don't know
how long this situation is going to last. Barry Jenkins
chose to end it on a less I guess less ambiguous. No,
(48:32):
I don't know. I just I don't really have a
strong opinion on it either way. I just thought it
was interesting that that was one of his creative choices
to adjust a little bit. Yeah, it makes the ending
feel more bleak, certainly does in the book's ending, but
shop is bleak out there. So I don't have a
(48:55):
strong take out it. I just wanted to mention that
connotation change um, because I could see feeling a number
of ways about it. I think that the way that
the movie ends, I mean, both are grounded in realism.
They're just kind of different, different ways to slice it. Yeah,
I also had read the book, so when I watched it,
I was like, that makes sense. I was like, things
(49:16):
are kind of like a kind to that, and that
makes sense. So, I mean, you know, it tracks. It
would have been nice to see this black narrative end
on a more optimistic note, since a lot of black
stories don't. Yeah, I found I just found it interesting
that Barry Jenkins made a choice to make it a
(49:37):
little more depressing. It was like, right, but I trust
his judgment, you know, of course, So I'm just like,
you know, One thing I also remember reading was that
apparently that Fannie's dad could suicide in the book but
not in the movie. And so I was like, so,
I guess it was like a trade off. Interesting, I
did not see that. It's like, I guess we can
(49:58):
keep Fannie his dad. But I guess we got it.
So I guess it was a good toss up. I
guess we have to add in a bummer element somewhere else.
That's I mean, bummer is a major understatement, obviously. Yeah.
I mean, as we've said many times, we're not known
for our our our book reading. We don't read book
here podcast. I do really want to read the book,
(50:19):
especially because I haven't read a James Baldwin novel. Shout
out to James Baldwin, um a prolific queer Black writer.
I did because I love movie watching so much. I
did watch the documentary on him. I am not your Negro,
but I have yet to read one of his great books.
(50:41):
I had a great I'll shout her out. I had
a great English teacher in high school named Mrs McLaren
who had us read Notes of a Native Son are
freshman year of high school, and she James Baldwin pilled
us early. Nice it work. He's the best. But I
also want to read this back summers here baby, you
(51:05):
got it to download your audio books and and and
go nut nut um. Does anyone else have anything to
say about the film? Everything? Yeah, I feel like, oh,
I guess my one last phrase of this great movie,
you're not going to kind of bring down a little
(51:25):
little bit, but to go back to the I guess
to the treatment it's early down, but to the treatment
of Victoria. Also what I love because of thinking about
the treatment of like of of Psycho Saut with black
men and not black women, and how and how black
men have been wealthy accused, and how and how that
this self could have gone left and um, and kind
(51:46):
of thinking about that history and and and and treating
it also in so much in his court in his
defense that you have to that you have to automatically
feel in eyes. But but they still didn't. And keeping
in mind that New Wanton just thought that was another
great point. They can at that history that but that
you don't have to automatically still balonize And that was
really great. Absolutely, this movie is so beautiful. If you
(52:08):
want to uh fall in love and cry, then watch
it today because it is just fucking gorgeous. And we
also I mean, this is the first Barry Jenkins movie
we've covered, but we are we We are also aware
of the overwhelming number of Moonlight requests. We will become
the Moonlight. Don't you worry. It's Barry Jenkins here here
(52:32):
in the pod. Yeah. Um, this is very much beside
the point. But Barry Jenkins, I feel like you're hot. Yeah. Well,
and also in law married to Lulu Wang, director of
The Farewell Maybe the couple. I love Law. They're so cute.
(52:53):
It's kind of startling what a good idea it is
for them to be married. It's just it's it just
makes sense. I remember where I was when I learned that.
I was like, if you guys want to cold direct something,
I just feel like he would all be really grateful.
As as society culturally we need this. I'm just like,
(53:14):
why not? Why not? I also wanted to last shout
out Barry Jenkins related also hot, married, and he released
a series on I think Amazon Prime last year called
The Underground Railroad that was so good and I felt
like was really overlooked. I don't know a lot of
(53:35):
people who have seen it. I feel like Amazon's horrible
at promoting their own shows and fuck Amazon, but that
show is incredible. You should watch it. I feel like
Amazon treats Prime as it. It's kind of like the
throwaway thing that you that you get when by that stuff.
And I'm like, you have like shows and they're good,
just promote them like it's not hot. The content is good,
(53:56):
they're already there. I was like, you gave Barry Jenkins
a thank check. You're gonna want to tell people about it,
you fools. The only show that any like, I don't know,
Amazon shows The Boys. The Boys. I'm tired of hearing
about the Boys. Love to promote the Boys. Look, I'm
not going to watch The Boys. You can't make me,
(54:17):
but I highly highly recommend Underground Dollara. Yes, um, well,
it really came down hard on the Boys and Tantatum's
furniture today. I just don't for your first lidetto over there.
It was like you, Okay, what happened? We're doing great?
What did the Boys ever do to me? I don't know.
(54:39):
I mean, in general, Billy Zanes in that show, I
don't know what I'm so upset about that changes things.
I think for just like an episode, I'll watch that episode, Okay,
I don't know what I'm so mad about. I need
to take a nap. I'm sick. You do you you
have COVID, Jamie, Yeah, need to rest. So let's let's
draw this episode O to a conclusion. Does the movie
(55:03):
pass the Bechtel test? For sure? It does a lot
of the conversations between women, such as like Tissue and
her mom, tishe and her sister. The context is often
about Fannie, but there are exchanges that do pass. And also,
this is one of those movies where you know, not
handily passing the Bechtel test is fine. Not every movie
(55:25):
has to do that because it's doing so much else
and it's saying so much else, and this movie is
doing it anyways, so right, which I speaks to Yeah, Again,
it's like the metric itself is not the liver Die thing.
It's like, this movie has a number of well written,
(55:46):
well thought out characters of all genders who are talking
to each other and it's that whole, that whole level
of discourse. It was like, oh my gosh. I was
just like, I was like, we're taking a cartiage of
a little too literally here. Maybe we all settled down,
maybe we all got outside. Maybe with touch of Grass.
You know. Yeah, Michael Michelle, thank you so much for
(56:10):
returning to the show. It is so lovely to have
you back. Thank you for inviting me. I love y'all.
Y'all they're great. I love the show. I love movies.
You think all, where can we find more of wit?
We didn't do the nipples, Jamie, Jamie, you're so sick.
I have co um so yes nipple scales zero to
(56:34):
five nipples. Based on how the movie fares, looking at
it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this,
I would say like a four point five. And the
only thing I can think to jock four would be
the domestic felt like an unnecessary inclusion of domestic violence
(56:58):
that is also not really I don't know why it
was there really, But other than that, it's a nearly
perfect movie. It's yeah, it's just it's just a really
beautiful story. And as as Barry Jenkins said, this movie
rides that wavelength of like Joyce highs and at the
(57:19):
turn of a dime, very real lows of being black
in America. And I think that this movie handles that
maybe more effectively than any other movie I've seen. I
love the focus on this loving and supportive black family.
I love the focus on this loving and supportive relationship
(57:39):
like romantic relationship between Tishe and Fannie. All the commentary
on the judicial system, policing real estate, and the racism
that's present there class commentary. This movie is just accomplishing
so much, so efficiently, and so beautifully. And I'll give
(58:01):
it four point seven five nipples. I'll give one to Tish,
one to Tissa's mom, Sharon, I will give one to
Barry Jenkins. I'll give one to James Baldwin, and I'll
give my three quarters nipple to Ernestine Tissue's sister. Love it.
(58:27):
I'll meet you there. I I agree that the one
thing that bumped me was keeping domestic violence that felt
like I could have been accomplished in a less triggering way.
Or if you're going to keep it, then make sure
you're commenting on it. We already talked it through. But
this movie is just so beautiful it couldn't make I mean,
Barry Jenkins adapting James Baldwin is like, what more could
(58:50):
you ask for in a movie like? And I feel
like his Barry Jenkins filmmaking like rises to the same
quality of James Baldwin's writing, which is like, like that's
how it's not fair how talented people are sometimes you know,
it's sort of fucked up. Someone just have to be
(59:10):
on podcast, you know, and it doesn't feel good, you know,
um the but it's just like an unbelievable match between
writer and director. Um, and it works so well. Every
character here is so well acted and and you know,
I mean Caitlin did just echo what you're saying. The
(59:32):
number of issues that this movie addresses thoughtfully and seamlessly
is just like kind of incredible in a period piece too,
It is just incredible. And also you just have you
have women at the center of the story and also
a lot of different kinds of women with different perspectives,
(59:53):
and but there is still generally a loving, supportive environment
across the board. So I love this Spoobie. Um, I'm
gonna give it four point seven five. Give one to Tish,
give to one to Brian Tyree, Henry, I'll give one
to Regina King, give one to Tiana Paris, and then
(01:00:16):
I'll give the point seven five two. Barry Jenkins love it.
Michael Michelle I would also give it a point for
seven five. Also because like the slap you know, we said,
like we said, I didn't need to be there. Um,
but yeah, I just I love this movie. I'll keep
rewatching it because, um, it just handles things well and
(01:00:38):
it also still makes me feel warm although it's not
like about this really hard topic, but it's still gives
you like the feeling of warmth, which is like amazing. Yeah,
and just everyone everyone looks great. Uh shut after Stefan
James for looking like that. Thank you for existing, sir, um.
And it just handles so many things really well. Else,
(01:01:00):
I would give one to Tish, one dish to Sharon
and Orgina King for being an icon and possibly the
greatest Chile star of all time. Um oh, I would
give one to Barry jing and and then also one
to Coin Nikas whose name I don't remember, but a
great father figure. And then point seven five to Barry Jakin,
(01:01:22):
Tish's father. You mean, yes, Joseph, Yes, one to Joseph
for for for following impartial all these food steps of
very very Jenkin's great father figures. Yes. Absolutely, Thank you
again Michael Michelle for coming back and chatting about this
movie with us. Where can people follow you? Check out
(01:01:43):
your writing, et cetera. Yes, so I am on Twitter
at Michael. No, that's wrong. I'm on Instagram, like I
have social media and I know what they're called. I
am Michael Michelle with three m h A E L
m h l e with three ears at the end
on Instagram, on films and films on Twitter because I
(01:02:07):
care about women in movies, and um, you can see
me um in our Bizarre and Awards Watch and teen
Vogue and I'm doing some really cool cover story that
I can talk about yet, but they're really fun. Um.
I did some cool work with Awards watched for some
Emmy nominees recently that'll be out soon. Um. I'm still
(01:02:28):
paying at university, how the dollars each year it hopes
of one day get a good degree. So I'll so
I'm still doing that. I'm making a short film and yeah,
oh yeah that's incredible. Yeah. You can find us on
on all the regular places Instagram, Twitter, at backtel Cast,
you can sign up for our Patreon a k A
(01:02:49):
Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast five bucks
a month look at you too, bonus episodes with over
a hundreds in the backlog. Are you running out of
main fee. Well not anymore, to scoot on over to
the matrix, not anymore, okay, and sorry, I have COVID
nineteen um okay uh. And you can check out our
(01:03:13):
merch over at public dot com slash the Bacto cast.
Indeed you can. And with that, should we all take
a stroll down Beal Street. Let's do it together holding hands? Yeah,
you know, as a score swells and there's like a
yellow ceres yes, and the leaves there's it seems like
(01:03:37):
there was always fall foliage. Yes, very autumnal vibes. Oh
so nice. Okay, bye bye, bye bye
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