Jackie Brown with Sadia Azmat

On this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Sadia Azmat plan a sting while discussing Jackie Brown.

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Or do they have individualism?

Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing with the
Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlyn, can you smuggle half a million
dollars out of Cobbo for me? I need the money
to get a haircut because my hair and beard are
really strange.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Classic Caitlin. Yes, of course, and I will. I promise
to be like everyone in this movie, really bad at it.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Thank you so much. Cool, cool, cool, yeah ough.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
An iconic introduction. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name
is Jamie Loftis.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
My name is Caitlyn Deronte, and this is our show
where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to
initiate a larger conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
We sure do. But what is the Bechdel Test? Well
we'll tell you. Yeah. So, if you've been listening to
this show for a long time, you very likely know
what it is. It is a media metric created by
queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Originally in her comic dys To
Watch Out For in the eighties. It was a one
off joke just sort of pointing out how infrequently women

(01:30):
talked to each other in blockbuster movies. But it has
since been sort of taken on by culture at large
to talk about how infrequently women talk in movies. So
there's a lot of different versions of this test. The
one we use on this show is as follows. We

(01:51):
require that there be two people of a marginalized gender
with names who speak to each other about something other
than a man for two lines of die or more preferably,
it should be a meaningful exchange of dialogue. Which we
made that change Win Caitlyn like a couple of years ago,
because there were so many movies that it was like, well,

(02:14):
someone talks to a waitress at one point, and the
waitress is wearing a name tag, so it's feminist, and
you're just like, well, okay, we have to make some adjustments.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Anyways, that's the version we use.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Indeed, and today's movie is a long time request. Yes,
it's Jackie Brown, the nineteen ninety seven movie written and
directed by Quentin Tarantino.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Someone who I don't think has ever experienced a scandal before.
I think a no famously scandalous director.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Also the production company Miramax.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about this,
So really, I don't think that we'll have really much
talk about. It will be a really quick episode, yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:03):
No.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
So we're doing Jackie Brown. We have an amazing guest
with us who is a comedian, author of the book
sex Bomb, and host of the BBC podcast No Country
for Young Women. It's Saudia Asthmat.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
Hello, welcome, Welcome, Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Hello, thank you for being here and for bringing us
this movie.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
So, you sent us a number of options of movies
you'd like to cover on the show, and this was
on the list. So we're curious. What is your history
with the movie, Jackie Brown? And I guess sort of
like with Tarantino movies overall, because I feel like it's
hard to talk about one Tarantino movie without accidentally talking

(03:47):
about all of them truly.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
So you know what I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 5 (03:52):
I was going through my watch the Robert de Naro
movie Zone or Era.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
At that point in time, so I was just I.

Speaker 5 (04:00):
Really liked him, and I heard a lot about Jackie Brown,
but not in terms of in any detail, like it
would be thrown around, like I didn't know if it
was a real movie about like a Jackie Brown was
a real person, or like it's just a name that
seems to crop up now and then. So it felt
like it was part of pop culture and I just
hadn't come across it. And also I don't know actually

(04:22):
if I was trying to. I don't know if I
was on my watching Robert de Niro or watching Sam
Jackson zone, but I don't know what that's not a zone,
but like in terms of my routine, if you like, so,
I love both of them. And then I just watched
I didn't know it was directed by Tarantino at the time,
and I was blown away because it's not even about

(04:44):
Robert de Niro or Sam Jackson, even though they're really great.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
It's about like Pam Grier's character, and.

Speaker 5 (04:51):
It really felt like a portrayal of a woman who
is from a minority in a way that I'd never
seen before that I felt like, obviously I've never had
to smuggle money, right, but like that I could really
relate to.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
In terms of the decisions that she had to make.
So it was like breathless and I love this movie.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
And talking about Tarantino, so, I mean, he's made some
of the best movies ever, Like Pulp Fiction is clearly like, ah,
it's so good. I didn't really like Reservoir I'm not
going to go through all of his movies, by the
way and.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
Just tell you why. I thought. That's not very ring.
That's not fair, is it.

Speaker 5 (05:27):
But there's a few that come to my like Django.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
I think that's how you say it, Jango one change change.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
Yeah, I really enjoyed it, although I didn't really like
and Glorious Bastards and I didn't really like Reservoir Dogs.
I think I was gonna say, and so obviously he's
a genius, but I think we all know that being
a genius doesn't come without its pitfalls.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
And I think you might know a few of them
more than me. But yeah, I mean I don't know
like he yeah, as you alluded to, he was.

Speaker 5 (06:00):
I think obviously he knew about Weinstein, but you know,
so many actors probably did, and maybe it didn't occur
to them to open their mouths even though everyone listens
to them.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
But anyway, so I really like his movies and I
don't know him personally.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Hey me either, Yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the
Tarantino Expanded Universe slash Jackie Brown specifically.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Let's see. I Yeah, I feel like we've covered pulp
fiction and kill Bill on the show before.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
I mean, we still need to redo our kill Bill episode.
I know, I thought that was a raised from existence.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yes, so we did at one point. It was our
first episode ever and we didn't know what we were
talking about. So we'll REDI that at some point. But
I mean, I think, like a lot of people, I'm
very kind of hit and miss on Tarantino. Like obviously,
he's very technically talented, and you know, I'm never gonna
judge someone for enjoying his work. Kill Bill is still

(07:09):
one of my favorite movies ever, for all of its flaws. So,
I mean, yes, as far as Tarantino goes, I it
feels like almost an impossible discussion to have. Creatively, he's
hit or missed for me, He's made stuff that I
really love. I think that it's I don't know. His
history on race is very talked about and occurred yes,

(07:31):
it's I don't know. He's such a complicated person to
talk about because he's written women characters in particular that
I have a lot of love for and had influence
on me. But at the same time, you have the
kill Bill example, when during the Me Too movement, it
came out that Uma Thurman was extremely injured on the

(07:52):
set of Kill Bill, and Tarantino did nothing to help her,
And so it's and.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
He was the reason why, Like he yeah, he pushed,
he instructed her to drive like basically do a very
unsafe stunt, and then she got badly injured because of it.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
And I think, you know, sometimes even the things I
enjoy about him creatively doesn't come through in his personal
life or personal record whatsoever. Anyways, Jackie Brown, I had
seen it once before. I remember one liking it too,
being like it's so long. I still feel that way now, Yeah, Caitlin,
what's your history with Jackie Brown?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I had never seen it before. This was I think
the one Tarantino movie that I had yet to watch.
It's been on my list for a long time, but
I just didn't get around to it until I had
an excuse to do so for this podcast and I'm
glad I finally watched it. I quite enjoyed it. I

(08:48):
would rank it toward the top of my list of
Tarantino movies because I think so too. Yeah, same with
everyone else. I mean, he is a bit hit or miss.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
For me.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
I generally like most of his movies, but Hateful Eight,
for example, I couldn't stand it. I did not like
Once upon a Time in Hollywood at all. Other ones
I like a bit more kill Bill is similarly my
favorite of his. But yeah, Jackie Brown, I think it's

(09:19):
an interesting departure to some degree from his other work,
and I found it just like refreshing and fun to watch,
and I really like the characters and performances, and there's
just a lot of interesting things going on that we
will discuss.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
But I definitely agree. I think it's like one of
my especially because I think the last time I watched it,
I was in college or something, and I mean I
liked it the first time. I liked it even better
this time because I feel like I just know more
about the actors and had more interest in the context,
and the context of this movie is really fascinating. So
there's so much to.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Talk about, for sure. Shall I do the recap and
we'll go from there.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Let's do it, and Sadia feels free to jump in
at any point.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
Okay, Well, again, this is a long movie, although it's
not even long by today's standards. Every movie that comes
out is three hours long, and it's like, only Titanic
should be that long anyway.

Speaker 4 (10:19):
I mean, Titanic shouldn't have been that long either.

Speaker 5 (10:21):
Really, come on, Oh don't sorry, I didn't realize that.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
I want to you.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
I don't disagree. I could do an edit of Titanic
that is two and a half hours, which would cut
forty five minutes out of the runtime.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
So no way, no way, no way.

Speaker 5 (10:37):
I think only Mob movies should be three hours long
because the Mob ones.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
I love them. I don't know why everybody's gonna die
and lose the money. I know that, but I.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Just like Barbie was an hour fifty two and I
celebrated that both times. I was like, wow, I didn't
even know it was legal to make a movie under
two hours anymore.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yeay, anyway, okay, So here it is the recap for
Jackie Brown. We briefly meet a flight attendant for Cabo
Air named Jackie Brown. Played by Pam Greer.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
I felt very film bro proud of myself during the
opening shot where I was like, hey, this is the
chef from a graduate and it is this, I was like, Wow,
this is normally something that a guy would yell at.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Me, but now you're the one yelling.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
I am the yelling at No. One.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah. So then we cut to Ordell played by Samuel L. Jackson,
who is an arms dealer talking about guns to Lewis
played by Robert de Niro. Ordell has a girlfriend, Melanie,
who we meet played by Bridget Fonda, who he does
not treat very well. FYI, and we also learned that

(11:55):
Ordell has half a million dollars in cash stashed in
Then Ordell gets a call from his pal Beaumont, who
needs to be bailed out of jail. So Ordell and
Lewis go to a bail bondsman named Max Cherry played
by Robert Forster. Ordell pays for Beaumont to be bailed

(12:19):
out of jail, and then he pays Beaumont a visit
he's played by Chris Tucker, and then Ordell shoots and
kills Beaumont because Ordell figured that Beaumont would rat him
out to avoid a long jail sentence. Then we cut
back to Jackie Brown at Lax after one of her

(12:41):
flight attendant shifts and two cops approach her, Mark and
Ray played by Michael Bowen and Michael Keaton, and they
want to look in Jackie Brown's bag where they find
fifty thousand dollars in cash and they know that she's

(13:01):
smuggling it and they want to know who and Cabo
gave it to her and who in the US she's
giving it too, but she refuses to talk. But then
they find a little baggie of cocaine with the cash,
so then she is arrested and thrown in jail for
possession with the intent to distribute, which is a bogus

(13:25):
thing which they comment on, but anyway, she's arrested and
thrown in jail and her bail is set at ten
thousand dollars. So Ordell goes back to the bail bondsman,
Max Cherry, wanting to transfer the ten thousand dollars bond
that he paid for Beaumont and transfer it over to
Jackie Brown. So Max goes and bails Jackie out of jail,

(13:50):
and he sees her and he's like Hubba hubba a wooga, who's's.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
That in love? Att first cites her.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
And then he takes her for a drink to discuss
her options, like kind of what she should do moving forward,
and then he drops her off at home. Ordell then
goes to Jackie's house, and it seems like he plans
to kill Jackie for the same reason he killed Beaumont.
He doesn't want anyone ratting him out, but she assures

(14:24):
him that she didn't tell the cops anything. But she
also realizes that his intentions might be malicious and that
he might be trying to kill her, so she pulls
a gun on him that she stole from Max Cherry,
and then she negotiates a deal with Ordell so that
he won't be put away in prison and where she

(14:45):
will be set up financially if she does have to
go to jail. The next morning, Max Cherry comes over
to Jackie Brown's house to get his gun back, and
she invites him in for coffee, and they're listening to
and music and they're kind of vibing, and she tells
him that she does not actually intend to cooperate with

(15:08):
Ordell and that she's going to try to make a
deal with the cops because she's fearful for her future,
her financial security. Things like that.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I will say Jackie throughout this movie, she's I mean,
we'll talk about what an incredible character she is, But
I just kept thinking about how many times if I
were Jackie that I would have forgotten something that I
told someone. I was like, wow, I'm not smart enough
to play the four D game of chess that she's playing.
Because sometimes I'm like wait what and I'm like, oh, right,
she's a genius, Like.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
Like is she keeping a diary? Like I don't know
how she got drug?

Speaker 5 (15:45):
And even just caring about you know, having that portrayal
of someone caring about their like financial freedom, their finances,
their future. That's like something I never saw before either, really,
you know.

Speaker 4 (15:57):
So that's like she's a smart like she's yeah, she's
very admirable.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, she's so cool and just like even objectively and
like her memory and ability to like juggle five thousand
things at once is incredible. She's such a cool character
for sure.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, so kind of out sorry do you ever lie, Jamie?
Because I am bad at lying.

Speaker 5 (16:21):
So I think that's why I would have got shot, like,
you know, I would have got shut.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
I definitely like I feel like outside of like small
like like little white lie kind of things, and even
sometimes I lose track of those, and then I'd be like,
oh wait, I told that weird lie trying to impress
someone once and now I've accidentally told them myself. Anyways,
I couldn't do what she did. I would be dead
in the first twenty minutes.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
So same, Yeah, I couldn't keep anything straight. Yeah, Okay.
Then we see Jackie meeting with those cops, Mark and
Ray telling them about her dealings with Ordell, and then
she meets with Ordell again and makes him think that
she's working with the cops as a cover and that

(17:05):
she is still loyal to him, and they make a
plan where they will need two women to be and
they specify women. They're like, it needs to be women
to be kind of like intermediaries between Jackie and Ordell
as far as like handing off the money to trick

(17:26):
the cops into following the wrong woman during these couple
different handoffs that they will be doing in order for
Jackie to get this half million dollars from Cabo to
Ordell in Los Angeles, where the story takes place, by
the way, ever heard of it? Ever heard of it?
Then Ordell leaves this meeting with Jackie, but then he

(17:50):
sees Max run into Jackie and they're chatting, and He's like,
what the fuck? Like, do they know each other? What's
going on here? So now he's suspicious.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
He's so insecure, isn't he?

Speaker 5 (18:02):
Like?

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Ah truly and it is always his downfall. Same with
the de Niro character too.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Oh yeah for sure, yep. I can't wait to talk
about male fragility with these characters.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
My feet at top.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Okay, So everyone goes through with this trial run of
Jackie handing off ten thousand dollars to a woman named Shiranda.
She's one of Ordell's many girlfriends, and this is happening
at a mall food court, and then Shiranda will then
hand it off the cash to Ordell.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I wrote not to brag, but I wrote a story
about mall food courts earlier this year, and there are
so many iconic movie scenes that happen in mall food courts.
I think the Jackie Brown scene is way up there.
It was tied for me internally eighth grade. I was
gonna say eighth grade, impactful mall food court seemed to.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Me personally, they're some good ones. Yeah, fast times at
Ridgemont High. I feel like has.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
And clueless has one. I love them all. I love
a food court. I love drama at set location.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Same, Okay, So this handoff happens and the cops are
there watching. Max is also there, and it seems like
Max and Jackie are becoming somewhat of an item. He
also notices another woman, Simone, who is involved in this handoff,

(19:38):
who the cops are not aware of, so she's like
the second woman who's there to be tricksy basically. Then
Jackie goes to see Ordell and they hash out the
second handoff of the half million dollars. So this time
Jackie will hand off the money in a fitting room

(19:58):
at a department store at the same mall. Now the
exact plan with all of these like changes in the
amounds are sunny. Yeah, I got confused because now Simone
is not involved, but Ordell's girlfriend Melanie.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Is well because Simone didn't Simone get ten thousand dollars
during the trial run And then she's like, I'm od
of hearing and we were like good girl smoney.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, but it's unclear like who knows what or I
forget like which information. It's just like it's all a
bit confusing.

Speaker 5 (20:39):
It becomes so much about who you can trust at
this point because there's no logic, sensors gone out.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
Of the windows.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
So yeah, it is about like you've got instinct, then
who's going to let you down?

Speaker 4 (20:50):
Or can you afford to risk everything on? You know?

Speaker 5 (20:54):
This weird situation. But it was so strange because I've
never had smuggle. I have to keep saying that, but
we believe, you know, like please believe you guys. But
actually we could all do the We're three women, we
could do the test one. No, I'm just saying that, true. Yeah,
it is, so it's weird how real this all felt,
even though the stakes were so high and not very

(21:18):
day to day.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
Absolutely, Yeah, it feels very grounded, especially for a Tarantino movie.
It's I would probably his most grounded one. Yeah. Anyway, Also,
while all of this is happening, it seems like Jackie
intends to only hand off fifty thousand dollars of the
money to whoever's going to get it to Ordell, and

(21:42):
that she's going to run off with the rest, and
she's kind of co conspiring with Max about this plan.
Then it's time for the big exchange, so Jackie heads
to the mall, as does Max, as does Lewis and Melanie,
and Jackie hands off the fifty thousand dollars to Melanie

(22:04):
in the dressing room, and then Jackie leaves the remaining
half million dollars in the dressing room on purpose, and
then she rushes out of the store and calls for Ray,
the Michael Keaton cop, and she tells him that Melanie
burst into the dressing room and took all of the
money and ran out, so she's spinning this web of lies.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yarns. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Then we flash back to this exchange from Melanie and
Lewis's point of view. Louis is on edge. He's being
aggressive and awful, and then after the handoff, he keeps
getting lost in the department store and then in the
parking lot, and Melanie keeps taunting him about it, and

(22:53):
he blows a gasket and shoots and kills Melanie in
the parking lot.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Which I forgot about and did not see coming and
was quite shocked.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
It happens really abruptly, yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Then we get the exchange from Max's point of view
where he watches Jackie come out of the dressing room,
and then he goes in and retrieves the bag with
the half million dollars in cash, and he leaves the
mall cut two Louis picking up Ordell, and Lewis is like,

(23:29):
by the way, I shot Melanie, and Ordell is not
mad about it, but he is mad when he looks
in the bag and discovers that only forty thousand dollars
is in there, not the full half million, and he
suspects that it was Jackie Brown who stole it. And

(23:50):
then Lewis is like, oh, wait a minute, I did
see Max Cherry in the department store, but I didn't
even think anything of it. But it is by yeah,
and Ordella is like, well, you're bad at your job,
and then he shoots and kills Lewis.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Which It's funny to see a Robert de Niro character
being bad at crime, because in most of his other
movies he's pretty good at crime.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
I really enjoyed, Like, I mean, obviously his character is horrible,
but I feel like it's, Yeah, it's really rare to
see him in like a very like I don't know,
like Lewis is a diption outside of being like he yeah,
he's like a total dufeist like he. I don't know.

(24:36):
I think I just associate de Niro characters with like
hyper competence that I'm like, Wow, he's really not gonna
get He's not He's got nothing to hide. He's just
not good at this.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
There's a scene I think he might be really high
and that's why he's acting this way. But he's like
spacing out after he has called Simone to try to
figure out where she is, and he's like trying to
hang up the phone and he keeps spending it around
because he can't figure out how to hang up this
landline and it's just it's great. Uh Anyway, So Ordell

(25:10):
shoots and kills Lewis for being bad at his job,
and then he hides out at Sharonda's place. Then we
cut to Ray questioning Jackie Brown, and he's just like,
what the hell happened? Because of what Jackie told him,
he thinks that, you know, she tried to hand off
this fifty thousand dollars to Melanie and that Melanie ran

(25:34):
off with it and that's why Melanie got shot, and
he has no idea about this half million dollars that
Max has. But Ray feels that he now has enough
evidence to convict Ordell because he's been after Ordell this
whole time. But before the cops can get to Ordell,
Ordell and Max have a conversation where Ordell is like, Okay,

(25:58):
I know you helped Jackie steal money, so she needs
to give it back or I'm going to kill her.
And so Max tells Ordell that Jackie does want to
give the money back. So they head to Max's office
where Jackie and the money are and Ordell comes into

(26:19):
the office, but it's a setup and the cops are there,
and Ray jumps out and shoots Ordell. Then we cut
to three days later. Jackie has the half million dollars
that only Max knows about of the people who are
still alive at least, and she's given some of it

(26:42):
to Max for helping, and then she says goodbye to Max.
They kiss, she tells him she's headed to Spain.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Kiss it's it's fine.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Really, I was like, uh.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
I thought it was a good kiss. I don't know,
maybe it was just early sure.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
But she tells him she's heading to Spain, and then
the movie ends with her driving off. So that's the movie.
Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
to discuss and we're back.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yes, where shall we start, Well, let's do some context
corner and then yeah, go from there. Excellent.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Okay, So basically prior to this movie, Tarantino had directed
Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, and he had you know,
written and starred in a few other movies before this,
and all of that has had cemented him as this
kind of like Indie Darling director that also had box

(27:54):
office appeal, who also had this very distinct style. So
he's on his way to being this like, you know,
a tour status.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
And also I feel like something that also carries through
and Jackie Brown is like he was already gaining this
reputation as someone who is able to like revive an
actor's career, because I feel like John Travolta's career was
really sort of kickstarted again by Pulp Fiction. I feel
like Pam Greer's career here and Max Cherry, who I
had not heard of.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
This actor Robert Forster, Yeah, he was bigger in I
think the late sixties and seventies, but by the time
this movie was being cast, he didn't even have like
an agent or a manager, like his career was basically over.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
And then we got nominated for a goddamn Oscar. I
think that Pam Greer should have been also nominated for
Oscar like but anyways, yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
So anyway, Tarantino acquired the rights to three Elmore Leonard
novels because he wanted to make at least one of
them into a movie. He wasn't sure which one. One
of these novels is called rum Punch, which is the
one that Tarantino decided to adapt, and it was his
first time adapting anything. And so the significant thing here

(29:13):
is that in the book rum Punch, the main character,
Jackie Burke, is a white woman, and Tarantino rewrote the
character as a black woman, Jackie Brown, with Pam Grier
in mine specifically yea, yeah exactly, so like Jackie Brown's
last name is a nod to her character in Foxy Brown,

(29:37):
which is a famous nineteen seventies blacksploitation film. Now, as
far as why Tarantino made this change, I couldn't find
anything super explicit or specific, but it just seems like
he wanted to pay homage to blacksplotation film and pay
homage to Pam Greer and her career as an actor

(30:00):
in these nineteen seventies blax quotation films such as Foxy
Brown and Coffee Right.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
I was reading that there was a bunch of because
I have not seen either of those movies, but I
guess that there's a bunch of references to them. Yes,
within Jackie Brown. I was Yeah, for what I was
able to gather, it just it seems like what you're saying,
and that he just wanted to meet Pam Greer really bad.
Clay question Mark, Yeah, I was. I mean, especially with

(30:28):
conversations about Tarantino, and because the Uma Thorntman story kind
of haunts me so much because I have so much
love for kill Bill and what happened to her on
the side of that movie was so terrible. I was like,
how did Pam Greer feel about working with this man?
It turns out pretty good, which is great. I'm I

(30:49):
am glad that Pamger had a good experience, But yeah,
it sounds like he just sort of sought her out
and was like, Hey, I wrote this for you. Do
you want to be super fame miss again and she
was like.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes, yes, although she did not realize that the part
was written for her, because when Tarantino sent her the script,
she didn't take it very seriously because she thought he
was sending it to her because she was being considered
for the much smaller role of Melanie. And so she's
just like whatever. And then when Tarantino called her, he's like, no,

(31:24):
I want you as Jackie Brown, and she's like, oh
yeah tight. So, like we said, this movie revitalized her
career because she had come to fame in the seventies
with these various bl exploitation films, and then her career

(31:44):
kind of tapered off after that, and.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
She she turned forty, which is not allowed, not.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Allowed if you're a woman. That is sort of the
context that we are working with that I feel like
could transition into a conversation about Tarantino's handling of race. Yeah,
because as we said, he makes choices and he's he's

(32:17):
got a checkered history when it comes to treatment of
race in his movies, where, for example, you know, he
cast himself in pulp fiction as a character who very
casually throws around.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
The n word.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, he's also, you know, one of the few white
directors of that time who was even willing to address
race in his movies at all and willing to cast
I would say, more actors of color in his movies
than most other big name auteur white guy directors of

(32:52):
that time. Again not saying that he handles race well
every time he does it. But there are interesting things
happen in this movie, one of the main ones being
the thing we mentioned of him specifically rewriting, because this
almost never happens, where oftentimes, in a book a character
will be a person of color, and then when a

(33:14):
director gets their hands on it, they adapt it and
whitewash it and now the character is suddenly white. It
very rarely happens in the reverse. And I mean him
wanting to pay homage to black exploitation films, is I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
I mean, do you.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
Explain black exploitation to me? Please? Is that?

Speaker 5 (33:35):
Like?

Speaker 4 (33:35):
What genre is that? Or you don't have to if
you don't.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
So it's basically so it's a genre, a subgenre most
popular in the nineteen seventies, where a lot of black
filmmakers and the casts were predominantly black. So it was
like a very black run and black lead group of movies.
But they're called black splotation of because they are relying

(34:02):
on different stereotypes a lot of times, like the characters
were like pimps or drug dealers or gun runners, things
like that.

Speaker 5 (34:11):
So it's what the name suggested it to be exploiting
the black dive in a way.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, although it does feel worth mentioning that the two
black exploitation movies that Pamger is most famous for were
written and directed by white director Jack Hill.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
True.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah, so there are sort of like variations within the genre.
You know, not all of them are necessarily relying on
stereotypes things like that. But Tarantino wanting to pay homage
to those films is I don't know, I don't know
how to feel about it necessarily one way or another.
And then another thing he does is he has various

(34:49):
characters comment on race throughout the film. Mostly it's Samuel L. Jackson.
Another thing to note here is that Tarantino originally wrote
the part of Ordell for himself. Tarantino was planning for
a long time to play Ordell, so.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Glad he stopped acting in so stressful watching him act
it really is.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
So after a long time he decided to you know,
relinquish the part and cast Samuel L. Jackson in the role,
which I'm again glad he did. I'd much rather watch
Samuel L. Jackson on screen than Tarantino. But that lends
itself to Ordell making different comments about how like when

(35:38):
he's in Max Cherry's office and Max wants to know, well,
if you already have ten thousand dollars, why can't you
just you know, why do you need a bond? Why
can't you take that money and bail out Beaumont? And
Ordell is like a black man showing up with ten
thousand dollars in cash. They're gonna want to know how
I got it. They'll want to keep a chunk of it,
claiming that there's like court costs all this stuff. So

(36:01):
he's saying, yeah, that they're gonna make racist assumptions about him,
and you know, nothing will work out in his favor. Similarly,
he's talking about when he wants Jackie Brown bailed out,
and he's commenting on the charge that she has been
charged with that she you know, was caught with less
than two ounces of cocaine but charged with intent to distribute,

(36:25):
and he says, you know, a movie star gets caught
with that same amount, they'd get charged with just possession,
which is a far less severe crime. But because it's
a black woman, she's charged with this bogus, far more
severe crime.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah. I mean, it's again like I don't know, I'm
like not trying to hand it to Tarantina too much
because it feels weird too. But yeah, like you were
saying earlier, Caitlin, it's like this is more commentary you
would get from a movie by a white director than
than most directors at this time, and just more commentary

(37:03):
on race in a big movie. In general, beau Vivie
is super successful.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, So, I mean, I guess my point is like
I wasn't necessarily expecting to see that in this movie
because again I didn't really I knew very little about
it going in, just that it was a Tarantino movie.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
And again he.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Based on his treatment of race and him throwing around
the N word very casually a few years before in
pulp fiction, but then him turning around and adapting this
character to specifically include a black woman as the protagonist
of his movie and framing her in a way that

(37:51):
in my opinion, makes her really awesome and like a
really complex character. And that plus like including other commentary
about race. Nothing too extensive in this movie, but again
it's more than you'd expect from a white director in
the nineties, which you know, the bar is very low,

(38:12):
and that doesn't necessarily, you know, mean that he should
get all these prizes and recognition. But I don't know,
it's complicated.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
It's interesting, which like there's I mean, we can link
this in the description of the episode two because yeah,
that topic alone there has been so much written about. Yeah,
it like comes up every time he releases a movie,
usually because he has once again written it into the movie, right,
and I know that he is. He and Spike Lee
have had this sort of long standing back and forth

(38:45):
about how Spike Lee feels like Spike Lee has a
sort of storied history of being like, this is fucking
weird that you do this this much like knock it off. Yeah,
we can link that in the description because it is
I mean, I think, very relevant. And also there's it
like infinite there is like twenty plus years of debate

(39:07):
about his use of the N word in movies, which
is absolutely wild and this movie was another example of
like there was a wave of discourse like that in
nineteen ninety seven. So for longer than some of our
listeners have been alive, this conversation has been going on.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
For the listeners who haven't heard like his rationale if
you want to call it rationale, Like does he explain?

Speaker 4 (39:32):
He does he ever own why he says it?

Speaker 1 (39:35):
So he's commented on it many times. I don't know.
I mean, I guess everyone react the way react, so
he sort of in twenty fifteen, I think he had
his all time worst response to it. When The Hateful
Eight came out. He did an interview with Brett Easton Ellis,
which I feel like doesn't help and address this controversy again,

(39:58):
saying quote, if you sit through the criticism, you see
it's pretty evenly divided between pros and cons. But when
black critics came out with savage think pieces about Django,
Django unchained, I couldn't have cared less. If people don't
like my movies, they don't like my movies, and if
they don't get it, it doesn't matter. The bad taste
that was left in my mouth had to do with this.
It's been a long time since the subject of a

(40:19):
writer's skin was mentioned as often as mine. You wouldn't
think the color of a writer's skin should have any
effect on the words themselves. In a lot of the
more ugly pieces, my motives were really brought to bear
in the most negative way. It's like I'm some super
villain coming up with this stuff unquote, which seems like
playing the victim to a pretty absurd extent.

Speaker 4 (40:38):
Yeah, I really don't understand, who don't.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
This sounds like a very like a lot of words,
but I didn't get any thread in what.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah, I don't even get.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
It's those sharp sentences that it's so bizarre too, because
I mean that reaction. It's I again, like this movie,
I think like Addresses, Like there's a scene between Ordell
and Max where Max essentially is like, are you appealing
to my white guilt to get me to do this?

(41:12):
And it's like, for I don't know, for a writer,
that is like trying to interact with those concepts and
these conversations to also say that in such a clueless way,
it's just like, yeah, baffling. Anyways, So we'll link more,
but yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
to discuss further and we're back.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Let's talk about Jackie Brown.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, let's do it. Sadia, you had mentioned that you
related to this character in meaningful ways, so I'm interested
to hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker 5 (41:56):
I'm just totally blown away by the character and this movie.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Is about her.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
This is such a strong movie given that the cast,
the other cast is quite a list past, but she
just overshadows the.

Speaker 4 (42:09):
Whole film, Like the whole deal is, like you can't
start watching her.

Speaker 6 (42:15):
She's sassy, she's real, she's vulnerable, she's flawed, she's a survivor,
and she's all of those things most of the time,
and we're we're really with her, and like, you know,
it's hard what she's going through, and I don't know, it's.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
Like I don't know, I just I fell in love
with her so so much. And I think it's also
like for me when I watched it, it was just
like a reminder, like I did get this kind of
moment where it's like, what I've never seen.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
Anybody like her.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
So that added to the impact that she had is
that this is a figure that we really need to
watch and this is a character a person like her
that I love to watch, and I could have continued
to watch her go to Spain.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
And you know, it wasn't.

Speaker 5 (42:58):
Even about relationship, which is really rare, like I think
or women is often you know, you want them to
kind of have a partner or that's a big part
of the story, if not the story. But this wasn't
about those. That was so secondary and so for her
to own everything in those in that kind of context,
for me, it was like I've never seen it before.

(43:21):
I couldn't start watching it. I wanted her to have
all the money. I wanted her to win and I
don't know how, but it was just like it was
really cool, and it just felt she was very honest,
she'd been through a lot. And yeah, just to repeat,
I hate repeating myself, but it's just like I think
it's because there's such an absence of women like her
on screen that it really like touched me quite a lot.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Right, I mean, because it's rare to have a movie
of this genre, you know, like a crime thriller, noir
type movie that center is a woman as the protagonist
who we are rooting for, the one where she's like
the smartest person in the room, in any room she's in,
she's doing a lot of the planning. She's playing all

(44:05):
of these people like she's she's the one. She comes
out on top.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
She's not hyper sexualized, which yeah, and you can't be
bad at her, like even though she's got all of
the strings, like you know how sometimes you hate like
the villain in Bond or whatever, Like we're so with her,
even though we're annoyed because we don't know what's going
on or whatever, we're feeling for her and it's like
we're really going through it as the audience.

Speaker 5 (44:27):
But like she's Yeah, she doesn't really do a lot wrong.
There's no victim blaming. It's like this sometimes, you know,
if there's you know, women in crime, it's like we
we have only like a one D relationship with them
or something like that. But even though she's a little
bit flawed, like we're still with her.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
There's no blame here.

Speaker 5 (44:45):
There's really complex and it's kind of just enjoyable to
see this that you can't start watching.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, and yeah, like you were saying, Jamie, she's the
way that a lot of women in her position as
a female character in a crime thriller movie, that character
would be hyper sexualized and or she would be framed
as like the fem fetal, but that is never how
she's represented, and especially for her to be centered as

(45:16):
the protagonist in a movie like this, especially as a
black woman, and especially as a black woman who is
older than thirty or thirty five, Like, these are very
rare things to see.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
And this is I forget when we talked about this, Caitlin,
But I feel like it's like Pam gre the actor
is over forty when this is filmed. But we also
I feel like often see actors who are older, but
they're still playing like a thirty seven year old, and
in this movie it is stated she is forty four
years old. And also like does I don't know, like

(45:53):
also the character matches that because I do think that
there is, like even now, like a pressure to eternally
seem like you are in your late thirties early forties,
even if you're an actor into your fifties and sixties.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
The Sandra Bullock effect, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Totally, and I and it's like has nothing to do
with the actors. It's all the whatever cultural pressure to
look at a certain age long after that makes human sense.
But I liked that like, Yeah, like Jackie Brown is,
I don't know, I liked how this movie approached age

(46:31):
as a theme, And I didn't even realize until those
conversations were had between a few different characters, because I think,
I mean, Jackie obviously talks about it most explicitly when
she talks about aging with Max and also points out
how aging for her is framed differently than the way

(46:51):
it is for him. And I thought that scene was
like really great and like beautifully done between them. And
you also see the freaky DeNiro care talk about aging too,
because now he can't smoke weed at he are like,
but it's like everyone like most characters. I don't know
as much for Ordell, but for like most characters, we
get to know interact with the idea of aging in

(47:16):
a way that felt I don't know, like I guess,
more thoughtful than I was expecting it to. Yeah, And
I think it's like also rare to see you know,
Pam Career and oh what's the what's Max Cherry's name? Again?
God damn it? Oh, Robert Forster, Robert Forster to see
actually like age well, like whatever, I mean, I don't

(47:39):
want to get into age gap discourse today, but like
age appropriate older couple as the leading romantic story is
again just like doesn't really happen even now still and
I just thought it was I don't know. I liked
how each character sort of got to explore what that
meant to them, And I think that's seen like between

(48:01):
Jackie and Max illustrates her motivation on why she's doing
what she's doing so beautifully and so empathetically and like
you can't watch that scene and not want her to
get every cent as well.

Speaker 5 (48:18):
Just on the same point as you, Jamie, is that
I'm not objectifying her. I don't know that sounds really weird,
but in terms of like I'm not fixated with her
appearance as beautiful as she is, Like that doesn't really
like it's not my central focal point. Like I think
I only realized at the end when that, like you
said that that kiss happened, that I'm like, she's a
sexy lady, but like you, I'm seeing her as a

(48:39):
human and outrounded person. I'm not just like checking her
out like the whole time, or it's not that she's
a Yeah, I think you already made that point about
her not being sexualized.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yes, which is like really cool. I don't know, Like
I again, I just like didn't expect it because Tarantino's
super hidden miss on how he sexualizes his female characters
as well. And you know, there's a bajillion studies about
how women of color in general are more likely to
be sexualized in movies that anyone is making, especially in

(49:12):
the West, And so I don't know, I just like
I loved the scene where like Max falls in love
with Jackie at first sight and she's just walking like.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
She's having spent several days maybe in jail, and she's
like disheveled, and she wants to go to like a
dark bar so that no one can see her because
she's like, I look like I just got out of jail.
But he's just like, that's the most beautiful woman I've
ever seen, and.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
He's not wrong.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
Like Pam Greer has such a presence on screen, like
she has just a face that you want to stare
at for hours and hours and hours, Like it's just
she's just so magnetic and every man who she encounters
basically falls in love with her because Max sees her
it's love at first sight. There are various allusions to

(49:58):
Ray the Michael Keaton cop liking her, having a crush
on her. He like takes her out to dinner several
times to like discuss the case, but like it doesn't
need to be over dinner, but he's just like, I
love I just want to look at her. The bartender.
It's like a brief, like two second scene, but like
the bartender at the cockatoo, Inn is like, hey baby.

Speaker 5 (50:21):
But the characters like her can be made. Why why
aren't they made since then? Or obviously not before? Fine,
but like since then, how come it's proven that this
is a realistic portrayal of a character? Like it's very rare,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (50:38):
It does still feel I mean, it's like, yeah, I
feel like there's far fewer examples since Jackie Brown then
there should be. And I don't know, like I think
this is probably all Pam Greer, but it feels so
cool and rare to have a character who is sexy
but not sexualized, Like I don't I don't know. I mean,

(51:00):
I think it just has to deal with like her
persona and what a good like an amazing actor and
what an amazing performance this is. But like she's so
naturally like magnetic and sexy and cool that it's like,
I don't know, like it feels like this movie just
lets Pam Greer do her work and perform and just

(51:22):
like you have no trouble believing that anyone would fall
in love.

Speaker 5 (51:26):
With her, And it's so like freeing because I'm not
focused on her being sexualized. I'm seeing so many different
aspects of her that I wouldn't if she was being sexualized.
So I'm not saying that there's no room for sexualized characters,
but I think because it's just always the case that, like,
because I'm so unpreoccupied with her, like those kind of

(51:48):
aspects of her, I'm allowed to just let go and
be in the story and follow her and not just
parts of her, like I don't. Yeah, it's not focunistic
at all. It's just like you're with the character, you're
not we've had because of her looks or because of
superficial things.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Right, totally, Yeah, you just need her. I wanted to
point out one more of the age things because I
just I don't know, I'm like, wow, age is never
discussed in movies, but the Cops at one point in
the first scene that Jackie has with the two cops
where they're going through her bag and she's holding her ground.
She's not putting up with like not taking the bait

(52:27):
after bait after bait that they're throwing at her. And
one of those pieces of bait is related to both
her age, race, and class, I think, all in the
same sentence where one of the characters says something akin
to like, if I was a forty four year old
black woman with a shitty job, I don't think I
would have another year to throw away, So you better
cooperate with us. Yeah, And I don't know. It's just

(52:48):
like such a vile thing to say to her, and
she just like does I mean, obviously doesn't fall for it.
She doesn't fall for anyone's bullshit, but it was you know.
I think that like that line sticks with her because
it comes up in a roundabout way later in that
conversation with Max, and her takeaway is like that's the

(53:10):
reason she's not going to cooperate with the cops. Is
like she's going to get her fucking eat prey love story,
and like there's totally there's Jackie Brown, two very different vibes. Almost, Well,
that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
Like her motivation is the intersection of her age, her race,
and her class because she and her status as someone
who has been incarcerated because she has a prior conviction
and where she served. I don't know if she served
jail time, but she was on probation for a while,

(53:48):
because it's referenced that she was formerly married and her husband,
who was a pilot, got caught for smuggling drugs I
think or something and she was his accomplice. So she
got apprehended by the law to some degree, and it
made it so that she couldn't get work with the

(54:10):
major airlines, which is why she's working for Cabo Air,
which I don't know if that's a real airline or not,
but in the movie, it's widely known that it's like
the shittiest airline to work for, and it's you know,
referenced that she only makes sixteen thousand dollars a year,
and so she's looking out for herself and she knows
that like as a black woman in her mid forties

(54:33):
with a prior arrest or, like you know, something on
her record, the cards are very much stacked against her,
and she needs to do whatever it takes to look
out for herself. And that's why she's like, I'm going
to steal this half a million dollars from this shitty

(54:54):
arms dealer who's like bad hit everything, and we're rooting
for her because of it.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
Did you guys?

Speaker 5 (55:03):
Sorry, we talked about this very briefly at the beginning,
but did you learn anything about yourselves when you watch
this that did you think you would do the same
as her? Or what was your anxiety that was like,
oh my god, I couldn't do that, Like, what did
you learn about your pelf?

Speaker 3 (55:18):
I would be so afraid of getting murdered by someone
that I and I'm such a rule follower that.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
I'd be like, okay, so not for you.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
I'm such a baby.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
It was hard. It was hard to decide.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Yeah, I was also, I mean, I think you mentioned
it earlier. I was like, I don't know if I
could keep my facts straight sufficiently morally. I have no
scruples about what Jackie is doing. And if I were
in a similar position, I you know, if I thought
I could pull it off, Yeah, maybe I would try,

(55:51):
but I don't know. I was like, I would need
someone that I trust to be like wait, what lie?
Did I tell again? Like I would need someone.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
Well, she trusts Max, and I want to just chat
about that relationship a little bit more because, like as
you said, Saudia, it is that relationship is like almost
it's like barely even a subplot in this movie. It's
just sort of there. It's not really taking up any
space there. You know, he likes her from the get go.

(56:24):
She's not like exploiting him or using him necessarily because
she never tries to be like I love you and
that's why you have to do this for me. She's
just like I'm trying to do this thing. Can you
help me? And he's like, well, I love you so yes.
And I was like, hm, I wonder if they're gonna
like stick them together at the end, and she does

(56:47):
like kind of halfheartedly invite him to go to Spain
with her. He declines, I'm not surprised that this movie
didn't do it, because like that's not a Tarantino thing
to do. He usually doesn't go for those cliche Hollywood endings.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
But I think, I mean, I was surprised at how
like I think it again, like for me connected to
the sexy but not sexualized thing where I don't know,
I mean trying to think of a clear cut example.
But again just with like women over forty in movies,
I flick it is the older you get as an actor,

(57:24):
if you're a woman or anyone of a marginalized gender,
the less likely it is that you are going to
be shown as romantically viable for sure. And I like
that she kind of gets her little like I don't know.
This relationship is like very much a side quest of
the movie. It is there. It helps move the plot
along a little bit, but it's like she I kind

(57:45):
of liked where they left it, where it was like, yeah,
they didn't force the relationship and that like I don't know.
I mean, obviously he'll be hung up on her until
he dies, but that's kind of his prefer She's got
to move on. And I love that the movie gives us,
you know, those like book endings of Jackie by herself,

(58:05):
like moving through the world, and this time she's like
driving with intention. She's not being ushered along by this
moving whatever at the airport, like I don't know, she's
It's wow. It feels very like and my life was
the prize at the end of the movie, and you're like,
I'm in control. It's cool.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
This is from a Variety piece from a few years
ago entitled Jackie Brown at twenty, meaning the movie is
twenty years old, Jackie Brown at twenty. Pam Greer has
a better idea for an ending, and so Pam Greer's
pitch for an alternate ending for this movie is this quote.

(58:47):
In my ending, we have a nice kiss, a second kiss,
and embrace, and he lets all the phone calls go
to voicemail. He'll take care of them later. He turns
out the lights, takes the keys, with me kids in
the car, I drive off, and all of a sudden
he becomes this chatterbox and annoying. I go around the block,

(59:08):
drop him off, and peel out of there.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Oh my god, that's great.

Speaker 4 (59:13):
I like that because I think what made their you
can't call.

Speaker 5 (59:18):
It relationship, but their connection interesting was the whole kind
of danger of this kind of smuggling deal type of thing.
And so if that's the sexy thing and that's kind
of resolved itself, then yeah, maybe like the reality, I
think basically it's a bittersweet, but it's probably more correct

(59:38):
that they don't end up together because daily life just
isn't going to be.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
For Jackie right, Yeah, I think he's too much of
a square for her, and it seems like he kind
of I kind of appreciated that he seemed to have
the self knowledge to understand that, and that's part of
why he's like, I can't I can't go on a vacation.
I'm too boring.

Speaker 4 (59:58):
Oh, Jamie is going in.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Well, I really know, I really liked Max, Like I
thought that like he was a I don't know, I
think it's kind of Yeah, there's a lot about this,
especially for a Tarantino movie that surprised me, where I
feel like you don't get a lot of like gentle men,
not not gentlemen, but like gentle men in Tarantino movies.

(01:00:22):
But Max Cherry is, you know, a pretty gentle man,
and I appreciated him. And I also was like, would
I want to go on a European vacation with him?
Probably not. I feel like Jackie's on to I truly
am like, what is the like? Yeah? And I also,
I don't know, I think I'm just a sucker for

(01:00:43):
like relationship subplots that are like we like had this
really weird, interesting moment in our lives that we shared together,
and then we moved on. I always kind of appreciate
that kind of story, and it seems like they'll both,
you know, remember each other fondly. And also I kind
of liked that they're like, well, I didn't like this,

(01:01:04):
but it was like Max was so like, I don't know,
I think inspired by meeting Jackie that he's like, I'm
getting out of the bail bond game and then he
does not, which just felt very true to life, true
like I'm always like I'm I'm done with whoever whatever,
and then you know, two seconds later you're like, well, no,
I actually have to pay rent this month, so I

(01:01:25):
guess I'm not done.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Can we talk about the other women in the movie?
Who oh boy? Are all girlfriends of Ordell?

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
I feel like, yeah, Tarantino used up all his respect
for women on Jackie's character, and he had none despair
for anybody else.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
This is true.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
The character with the most screened time of those girlfriends
of Ordell is Melanie, played by Bridget Fon. So we
learn very early on that Ordell mistreats Melanie. He expects
her to wait on him hand and foot. There's a

(01:02:11):
scene where they're watching feminist masterpiece Chicks who love guns.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
I thought that was like funny satire for yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Also noteworthy in that scene is Ordell is like talking
to Lewis about all of his gun knowledge, and he's
saying that his customers want particular guns because certain movies
made them look cool, even if the guns themselves are
not very good quality. But he's like, well, they want
the cool guns from the cool movies. And so he's

(01:02:43):
just commenting on how influential media is. Anyway, So Melanie
is mistreated if she tries to, you know, challenge Ordell,
he threatens her with violence. She spends most of the
movie shit talking or Dell to Lewis, saying like he
doesn't actually know anything. He's like he thinks he's Johnny

(01:03:07):
Gunn or something, but he doesn't know shit. She also
later shit talks Lewis to his face, saying like, oh, no,
wonder you got arrested and like went to jail. You're
really bad at this, uh, and then he retaliates by
shooting her, which we'll get to in a second.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
But when you when you explain it like that, it's
sort it's interesting. I don't know, maybe there's nothing to this,
but like it seems like Melanie is this sort of
like behavioral inverse of Jackie in a lot of ways,
where like Jackie knows that she is mostly surrounded by
incompetent men, but generally has enough patience to play it

(01:03:49):
to her advantage. Yeah, where Melanie does not have that patience. True,
And I like, I don't know, I'm not trying to
like I I'm I'm so curious of like what you're
supposed to think about her death. I didn't know what
to take because I feel like there's a way that
it's just like aid an act of cruelty and like

(01:04:12):
some sort of comment on like masculinity about the DeNiro character.
But I also think there's a viewing of it that
it's like, well, she brought it upon herself.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Yeah, it's but I don't know that's the thing. Like
she so she gets she later gets roped into this
like hand off sting thing and she becomes an integral
part of the plan. But then she almost immediately is
shot and killed in a way that, like we said,
we do not see coming at all. And it got

(01:04:43):
me thinking about the other characters who are killed in
the movie and why they are killed. Because the people
who are killed are Beaumont, Lewis, Ordell, and Melanie, not
in that order exactly, but Beaumont and Lewis are killed
by Ordell because they do something foolish. They're a liability

(01:05:04):
to Ordell. Basically, they're screwing up his operation, and so
he kills them to protect himself and eliminate these liabilities.
Ordell is killed because he's the bad guy who has
to be taken down. He is also him getting killed

(01:05:24):
to me felt like the movie punishing him for his
bad behavior. He's cruel to women, he's he's going to
kill the character that we're rooting for, Jackie Brown, so
he has to die, and that's the narrative punishing him.
But then Melanie is killed, like because she challenged Lewis's

(01:05:47):
fragile ego, and it's just like I don't know how
to interpret it exactly like you were saying, Jamie.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
And then Ordell is like, when Lewis is like, yeah,
I did shoot Melanie and she's basically dead, Ordell is
like you couldn't talk to her, you couldn't just hit her.
And then Lewis is like, well, I don't know, I
just shot her, and so Ordell is like, well, if
you had to do it, you had to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
And which which says to me just like based on
I don't know, Like it's hard to put on nineteen
ninety seven goggles for like watching this, but it feels
like in that scene with Sam Jackson and de Niro
that like it's kind of played as a joke right
after it happens, because that's like such a Tarantino scene

(01:06:37):
of like Sam Jackson in a car talking about a
recent murder, and it's like some of the most iconic
scenes that he's written. I don't know. This is not
one of them, obviously, but I don't know. I felt
like her, I don't understand why in a movie where
I feel like I did understand most of why things
were happening, that felt casual and random in Seid, And

(01:07:00):
maybe that's what it was supposed to be. I don't
I don't really know. And I also, towards the end
of Melanie's character arc, was not sure what she was
trying to do either, because it's like she had we
know that her motive is that Ordele treats her poorly
and she wants to fuck him over in some way,

(01:07:21):
and that's why she's leveraging this new I don't know,
like awkward, weed smoking hang situation with Lewis to her advantage.
I don't understand really why, Like, but on the day
of their plan, like she is running behind, Like there's

(01:07:44):
I just like didn't understand what we were supposed to
take away from her behavior like that was very unsettled,
and I think just was made to some extent to
make her seem like incompetent and kind of just like
a bimbo in the bad way, not in the coup way.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Well, there are a lot of male directors who do
this where they're like, yeah, there are certain types of
women who do deserve respect, but if you're this type
of woman, you do not deserve respect. And I think
Tarantino views someone like the Melanie character as the type

(01:08:24):
of woman who does not deserve respect, and therefore she's
gonna make choices that ultimately get her killed, and the
movie is gonna basically sort of blame her for getting killed,
and it's like, well, she was asking for it basically
because of the way she is. That's at least my

(01:08:45):
interpretation of it. I think you could read it differently,
but that's how I sort of feel.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Yeah, I'm I'm on bored with that. It's just bizarre
because it's like this, she feels more in line with
like a more stereotypical Quentin Tarantina character wedged inside of
this movie that pushes against a lot of what you
would consider to be stereotypical Quentin Tarantino characters. And I
also just like Bridget Fonda, and I wish that she
got a better ending. I like that at least at

(01:09:14):
least before she dies. You do get like this moment
between her and Jackie, even though it doesn't pass the
fact with us and they don't even ever really meet,
like face to face really because anytime that Jackie is entering,
I think the one time that they might have a conversation,
Melanie is leaving as Jackie arrives. But Jackie does try

(01:09:37):
to like give her extra like she gives her like
the cherry on top, because what did Ordella ever do
for either of us? Yeah, I liked that little moment
of solidarity even though she's got like forty five minutes
left to live for reasons unclear to me, Yeah, I liked.

(01:09:58):
I mean the other two we hear about two other characters.
They're both girlfriends of Wordel.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
I think Simone and Shiranda.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Yeah, yes, I don't know. The way that Ordel talks
about women is just horrible. Does not have a good
thing to say about anybody. I think he's talking about
Shiranda when he says that he basically prayed on her
dream of moving to Hollywood. Yeah, and is keeping her

(01:10:28):
captive to some extent as his girlfriend talks about her
like she is not smart at all. But I believe
she is also the one that takes the money and
fucks him over.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Right, No, that's Simone. Oh, good for Simone. So Simone
is right. So Simone is the middle aged woman who
who we meet when she's like doing a little dance
for Lewis in this like blue sequin dress. She's the
kind of secret person who's there for the trial run

(01:10:58):
of that like first money and Off, and then she
skips town with ten thousand dollars and they never hear
from her again, good for her. Shironda is the younger woman.
She's only nineteen. Meanwhile, Sam Jackson, like his character's in
his forties, late forties, presumably, like you said, he talks

(01:11:20):
about her very disrespectfully calls her like a country bumpkin
kind of thing, and then later she does that handoff
and she interacts very briefly with Jackie, and that's kind
of all we see of the food at the food court.
She eats some of her meal, and then later she's

(01:11:41):
in the room when Ordell and Max are talking, and
it's implied that she's like so stoned out of her mind.
I'm guessing on Heroin that she's like basically incapacitated and
she doesn't even like speak or does like barely conscious
in that scene. So those other two women of like

(01:12:03):
Simone and Shiranda, they are important to the story for
like the different sting operations that go down, but they
get very little screen time, They get very little characterization.
The characters nor the movie seem to respect them very much,
and then they're you know, in a couple scenes and
then gone, so there isn't really even much to talk

(01:12:24):
about with them.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
I really do like picture Quinn Garantino in his house
with like a vial full of respect for women characters,
and he's like, I don't know, I'm fresh out.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
I used it all up on that one.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
It's gonna have to phone it in. Yeah, which sucks
because again, I feel like we've been talking about this
for as long as the show has existed. I think
the first time we may have talked about it was
in the original Star Wars a New Hope episode where
it's like movies that have one amazing woman character and

(01:12:57):
then no one for them to really talk to other
than men for the whole movie. Yeah, which this movie
is not completely an example of, but for the most part,
I don't know. I mean, it's not perfect, but what
movie is. I just love Jackie Brown so much that
I want to forget this movie for certain things. But also,
you know, I'm team Bridget Fonda. She's very talented, she's

(01:13:21):
married to Danny Elfman, whoa is that fun.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
She's also a NEPO person because she's Henry Fonda's granddaughter,
Peter Fonda's daughter. The whole Fonda family is just I mean,
I like them, Jane Fonda's she's Jane Fonda's niece.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
This is I'm pro Fonda. I'm not made of stone.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Uh?

Speaker 7 (01:13:48):
Not?

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
That was uh, that's battle I had.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yeah, Well, we were kind of alluding to this There
are a couple interactions between women, but as far as
this movie passed seeing the Bechdel test, I do think
that an exchange between Jackie and Sharonda, Yes at the
mall court does pass.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
It does, yeah, because they are and I would say
that that's their meeting. Is definitely very meaningful. Even though
it doesn't have a ton of plot relevance, it feels
I was really happy that the movie at least took
a second to introduce them to each other. They're mostly
talking about food at the mall, but yeah, there's subtext.

(01:14:31):
I think it counts true. But I think that that
is the only time that we get because the other
exchanges are very brief. Between Pamguer and Bridget Fonda, there's
a moment of solidarity, but it's over a mutual being
fucked over by Ordell, so that that doesn't pass.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
But maybe when Melanie is like, you look really good
in that suit and Jackie's like thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Oh that's true. Okay, feminist masterpiece. I take back everything.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
I can take it all back, but onto the real
end all be all of movie rating systems, the Nipple scale, Yes,
where we rate the movie on a scale of zero
to five Nipples based on examining the movie through an
intersectional feminist lens. So this one, oh, this is a

(01:15:28):
tricky one. You know, you have such an incredible character
in Jackie Brown. Again, she's the smartest person in the room.
You know, she's a realistically flawed character. She's you know,
she's highly motivated. What is motivating her are interesting relatable

(01:15:49):
things as far as like, again the intersection of her age, race,
and class.

Speaker 5 (01:15:55):
And I like that she's not like beholden to anybody
like those flaws are hers.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
It's not like there's a whole I.

Speaker 5 (01:16:03):
Mean, there's probably a big backstory, but it's not kind
of alluded to, and so there's no like you feel
for her, but it's not like a pity feel.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
For her for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:16:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Yeah, she's highly empathetic as a character, and I'm rooting
for her every step of the way. And you know,
the Pam Greer performance is incredible, and there's just so
much to love and admire about the Jackie Brown character.
But as we said, Tarantino seems to have used up
all of his respect for women on that one character,

(01:16:37):
and then the rest of the female characters are not
offered that same level of respect or characterization, and yeah,
I don't know, there's just.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
Melanie could have just disappeared, Yeah, like she could have
like like we didn't need to.

Speaker 3 (01:16:54):
Gotten away from Lewis.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
In some respect, I think the treatment of the.

Speaker 5 (01:17:02):
Smaller roles of the women it says a lot about
the guys as well, and I feel like it's also
about the world that's been created.

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):
They're not very I don't know what the word I mean, upmarket.

Speaker 5 (01:17:12):
Is probably a bad choice of word, but it's like
I still hold them accountable to an extent. Does that
make sense what I'm saying, Like in terms of the
male characters, their sloppiness towards the women, it's about them
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
I do think the movie is commenting on their like
fragile male egos and.

Speaker 5 (01:17:33):
They're in a funk, right, These guys are in a funk.
As you kind of said earlier about Robert de Niro's character, like.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
He's basically a loser.

Speaker 5 (01:17:41):
So yeah, I think it's like it's not like the
best portrayal of women, or it's not a good portrayal
of women. However, I think they're also accountable in terms
of they're not great portrayals of men.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
Either, right, I mean Tarantino does not have respect. I
don't know, I don't know how he feels about like
ordell Or, but I mean he seems to think Max
Cherry is a pretty nice guy. Yeah, and I can't
argue with him. I was like, I was like, I

(01:18:13):
like Max, but also like we didn't oh, we didn't
even talk about like Jackie Brown colluding with the cops
and like her cooperation with the police and you know,
but also maybe you just have to chalk it up
to again, she's gonna do whatever it takes, because she
also plays the cops like she's not like there to

(01:18:34):
be like, no, you guys are awesome and I'm definitely
helping you with one hundred percent integrity.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
Yeah, I wouldn't say that this movie is procused pro coright, No,
it seems like she she makes it very like I
think that, like especially in that scene where it's hurt,
She's like, I'm going to do whatever is necessary to
survive in a way where I can be happy. Like
justifies how she games everything in every single role, right

(01:19:02):
and where like woaho, hell Yeah. But then like I
think more it's pro cop to make Michael Keaton a
cop because I think he's really hot. Well, I know,
someone is so sexy. That's sort of my thing. Casting
someone as young Michael Keaton does it for me, right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
Casting someone as likable as Michael Keaton as a cop
character is a little too pro cop for my for
my taste, but even so, yeah, it's It's just it's
Jackie Brown again being the smartest person in the room,
being able to keep track of everything that she's said
to everyone, anticipating things that will probably like she knows

(01:19:41):
all about Murphy's Law, like whatever can go wrong will,
She's like anticipating things. I also like the contrast between Beaumont,
who willingly gets in the trunk of a car for
like basically no reason. He's like the reason that Ordell
is like, yeah, because I need you to spring out

(01:20:02):
and surprise these people. I'm selling the guns too. It's
just like the flimsiest thing ever. Bowman's just like, well, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
It's horrible, and how the horrible thing is When that
scene happened, I believed him. I was like, wow, I
really would not make it five minutes into this movie.
I would have been like, yeah, I guess I owe
you as sure.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
You get into the trunk of a car, no problem.
But when as soon as you know, Max tells Jackie
about like, oh yeah, Beaumont got killed a few days ago.
Jackie's like, oh, well, that was obviously Ordell, and obviously
he's going to try to kill me too, So I
need to prepare. Like she's just so good at being

(01:20:45):
hyper aware of the situation and all the nuances and
like anticipating anything that might happen, and she's incredible. So
with all of this in mind, I think I'll give
the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
I'm kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Tempted to give it like three nipples because there are
some maybe even three and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
I don't know, Wow, I was even gonna go for it.
Is that too scary?

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
That's not scary?

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
Is that too scary?

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
All right, I'll go three and at half because at
the end of the day, it is still Quentin Tarantino
writing the N word into his script one hundred times. Yeah,
So three and a half nipples, and I'm going to
distribute them between Pam Greer, the actors who played Shiranda
and Simone, and Sam Jackson, who I just love and

(01:21:36):
he's the greatest, so much so that I'm on a
first name basis with him.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Hey Sam, Wow, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:45):
Four.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
For some reason, four doesn't sit right with my with
my spirit, So I'll go, I'll go three point seven. Five.
Let's get let's get into some real decimones. Get number freaky.
Jackie Brown is such an awesome character. I feel like it. Yeah,
there's just so many elements of like, I mean, we
have talked about it, but centering a black woman in

(01:22:06):
her forties in a like huge movie was really rare then,
is really rare now. And also that like she's sexy,
but she's not like I don't know, the camera doesn't
like make a meal of her in a creepy way
at any point. She's really smart, she's really motivated, but
not in a way that it's like becomes like weird

(01:22:27):
Mary Sue kind of behavior. Like the steaks are very real,
and like she's I don't know, she's just like the
coolest fucking character, and I wish that she had again,
just like women in her life to talk to. I
always think it's fascinating when you find these characters who
are like these amazing women that you're like, how does

(01:22:48):
Jackie Brown not have five? Hundred friends like, she is
so cool and so loved by everyone she encounters that
you would think if the movie allowed her to encounter
more women, they too would love her. And I just
I don't know. I mean, we don't really get into

(01:23:10):
Jackie Brown's or anyone in this movie's you know, backstory
in a meaningful way, which didn't bother me, But I
just I don't know. It would have been cool to
see what a true, like deep friendship would have seemed
like for her. But whatever it's she is incredible. I
think Melanie and Simone and Ronda were all done different

(01:23:33):
types and degrees of disservice, but Jackie She's untouchable. And
so I'm gonna give it three point seven five. I'm
giving them all to Pam Greer because it's her movie. Baby.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
I feel like you could have written out as much
as I like Robert de Niro as an actor, I
feel like you could have written him out of the
movie and then given Jackie Brown a friend instead of
giving Ordell a friend. That's my controversial This.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Doesn't This doesn't resolve the problem, but it would been
kind of fun if Rubbertcenio is Jackie Brown's best friend.

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
Anyway, Sardio, how about you? What say you?

Speaker 5 (01:24:14):
This is so hard because it's my choice, but I think, yeah,
I was going to go for four, but maybe three
point nine, but that's just weird, so probably let me
go for four.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
Okay, oh yeah, because it.

Speaker 7 (01:24:27):
Definitely did make me see things in a really refreshing way,
even though like we've definitely commented and I've taken on
board the notes about the side characters, which isn't great from.

Speaker 5 (01:24:41):
Like obviously when we're kind of in the industry, so
we know that all characters should be rounded, but like
that's not what he's gone for really, so, but she
is totally eclipsed everything, and I think given that I
really don't see women black women so real and so
kind of winners and inspiring survivors all of those things,

(01:25:02):
it's like yeah, before.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Yeah, yeah, hell yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:06):
Well, Sadia, thank you so much for joining us for
this discussion. Tell us where people can follow you online,
tell us about your book, or plug anything you want
to plug.

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):
Thank you, ladies.

Speaker 5 (01:25:20):
It's been so much fun and like, yeah, you made
me love this movie again and so much more. I
don't know why I don't watch this like more often,
so My book is called Texom. You can't see it
because I've learned my zoom.

Speaker 4 (01:25:34):
Oh. Anyway, my book is my memoir.

Speaker 5 (01:25:36):
It's about kind of dating as a Muslim woman, which
you never get to hear about in a nuanced way.
I guess, well you ever get to hear about is
Muslim women being repressed. So I'm really excited it's coming
out in America. I'm confused because I was told that
it's coming out on the twenty ninth of August, but
my friend in America said they can already order it now,

(01:25:57):
so if you do want to support you can. You
can get your good, older independent bookstore to order it,
or you can get it from Amazon or anywhere basically. So,
I really enjoyed writing that and hopefully I can write
another one. You can find me on Instagram mostly at
Sadia underscore asthmats with an at the end. And I

(01:26:18):
also have a website which is Sadia asthmat dot com
and it has a free guide if you want to
sign up to my mailing list. It's ten things You've
always wanted to ask about my head scarf but we're
too afraid to ask.

Speaker 4 (01:26:29):
So you can download it for free.

Speaker 5 (01:26:30):
And it's a little list that I made and that's
my plugs.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
Amazing. Thank you again.

Speaker 4 (01:26:35):
And I'm coming to America. Sorry, oh my god, of
another movie.

Speaker 5 (01:26:38):
I'm coming to New York September and October twenty twenty three.

Speaker 4 (01:26:42):
So I'm really excited. So hell yeah, my first ever
time in America and I can't wait. I'm so excited.

Speaker 5 (01:26:49):
Well, I'm away from the melt More food courts because
I hear there's a lot of there's a lot of
trouble that goes down there, so I wrote.

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):
So dangerous it goes down.

Speaker 3 (01:26:57):
Yeah, We'll enjoy your travels, and thanks again for coming
on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:27:03):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
You can follow us on social media at Bechdel Cast
and subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash
Bechdel Cast, where you will get two bonus episodes every
single month, always centering a super fun, awesome genius theme.

(01:27:25):
And you'll also get access to our back catalog of many,
many episodes, all for five dollars a month.

Speaker 4 (01:27:33):
I imagine.

Speaker 1 (01:27:34):
And you can also get our our merchover at teapublic
dot com slash the Bechdel Cast for all of your
merchandizing needs. And on that note, let's get into the

(01:27:55):
car of our recently dead guy we knew and Dry.
I have to the airport and go eat prey love
in Madrid.

Speaker 3 (01:28:05):
Bye bye bye