Love & Basketball with Zainab Johnson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hi, Welcome
to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My
name is Caitlin Toronte, and this, as always is our

(00:22):
podcast about the portrayal of women in movies usually not
that good, not that good good. How many episodes have
we done to this five thousand? Um, and women have
been portrayed well in four of them. I think conservatively
did like it was pretty good, and then some people
that it's like, you know, somewhere over fifty percent good.

(00:44):
But then you're like, but still a failing score. Anyways, Um,
we use the Bechtel test or Okay, here's what I
want to try to do because of today's movie, Um,
Bechtel basketball. Can we combine the two of best basketball
or Bechtel ball test? I mean we could thoughts? No, Okay,

(01:06):
I like love and basketball. Yeah that's so that's this movie.
We use the Bechtel test, though, to initiate a larger
conversation about the representation of women in film and The
Bechtel Test, of course, is a media metric created by
cartoonist Holes and becktel Uh, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test,
and it requires that two female identifying characters who have

(01:27):
names must speak to each other about something other than
a man for at least two lines of dialogue. That's
our metric. Theoretically, they could talk about love or basketball
and it could pass the Bechtel tests. That's true, but
it depends the the Bechtel ball tests. Fine, I'm going

(01:47):
to figure this out by the end of the episode. Okay,
I trust you, Thank you so much. So we are
talking about love and basketball. We have a guest, of course,
she is a hilarious comedian and we love her dearly.
It's zab Johnson. Hello here, So what's your your history,
your relationship with Loving Basketball. I love the movie Loving Basketball?

(02:10):
Do Basketball? The movie Basketball? The movie Love Basketball. But
I used to play basketball. I used to play basketball
in junior, high school and high school, in a little
bit of college. And I saw Loving Basketball when I
was in high school. Maybe the w NBA had just
Love and Basketball came out. Maybe the first year the

(02:32):
w NBA prepared not long after. Yeah, very close, right.
Love the Basketball came out two thousand. The w n
B a I think, was established in nineties, but I
guess that I was just like reading in the background.
I guess the first draft of the movie was written
before the w NBA existed, so they like changed the
ending to include anyways very soon after. Yeah. Well, you know,

(02:57):
it felt like a movie at the time. When I
saw it, it felt like a movie that was being
made for me. I've seen a lot of movies, like
as a teenager, and then when I saw that movie,
I just felt like, Oh, somebody wrote a movie from
me and I and that's why I liked it. Yeah.
I felt that way about like Benditt, like Beckham, because

(03:17):
I was a soccer player, okay, and I well, I
didn't have the same exact experience as the protagonist of
that movie. I was like, Oh, a soccer movie starring women. Yeah.
I feel that way about Black Swan. Yeah, yeah, what's
your history with this? I had honestly never seen it
until we prepped. Yeah, I somehow I missed it, and

(03:38):
I'm sorry everybody, but I have seen it three times
now since I found out we were going to do
this episode, and I'd rather enjoy it. Yeah, it is
one of the best movie soundtracks ever in life, and
one of the best songs that plays in the movie.
It's not on the soundtrack, and I hate when they

(03:59):
do that, like it's one of those Maxwell songs. It's
that Maxwell song. It's there's like two big songs in
the movie where it's where he you know, he's like
She's like, I'll pelay you for your heart, which come on,
come on. It's like we watched it together yesterday. I
was fully crying. It's just it is just so it's
such for me. It's like I was in a relationship

(04:22):
while I was playing basketball, and it felt like a
lot of times the two were intertwined. And so when
I watched that movie, I just feel like, I just
feel like it's such a good representation. I think of
what a lot of female athletes go through. I also,

(04:42):
I feel like I wasn't seeing a lot of coming
of age stories that were all black cast and like
really good representation. And I feel like loving love hip hop,
oh my god, loving basketball. I feel like it gave
me that too. I feel like it gave me representation
in so many different ways, and I was very appreciative
for that. And we've talked about this on the podcast before,

(05:04):
but so few mainstream coming of age stories focus on
people of color, black girls, black people at all. Uh,
it's mostly white people. And the story does like Triple Duty,
where it's like it's a female story, it's a black story,
and it's like an athletic story that isn't just focused
on it like yeah, it's just this movie has at all.

(05:26):
This is a big sleepover movie for me. I feel
like this would be in the regular I don't know
when I would have first seen it, but I know
that it was like I played basketball when I was younger,
like through seventh grade and then stuff, but it was
mostly just because I was tall and around. And then
the second that they're like it also requires skill, I
was like I should probably just bow out, um, but

(05:48):
I really like, like I just this would I feel like,
you know, at a sleepover, you do like a double
feature with your friends. This would like often be in
the rotation and so all the even the moments that
are like maybe a little bit corny, it is still
like I'll I'll play you for your heart, like that's
I love it. So much. It like, yeah, I don't know,

(06:09):
this movie still gets me all worked up. I love that.
I feel like this is like a very specific like
flashpoint of like what my into this movie was. But
when I first saw it, the Proud Family must have
been on the Disney Channel to either of you ever
watched The Proud Family? Not really, but I know it's
It's start Kyla Pratte Yeah exactly. So I was like, Oh,
that's Penny Proud in the movie, and so I was like, yeah,

(06:31):
I'll watch this. Um, yeah, it's it. I have a
lot of love for it. I think that movie introduced
Kyla Pratt was this like her first believe it was
her first big because I just didn't know what she
looked like. She just sounded I just knew her voice
from a cartoon. Yeah. I was like, no, that's Penny Proud. Yeah,

(06:51):
she's so good in it too. Everyone like all the
performances in this movie here. So I had this interview
very recently that Sini Lathan's who the art of Monica
in the movie. Um, she said that she wasn't the
chosen actress for the film, Like whoever they wanted they
couldn't get. Yeah, I did a little bit of research.

(07:12):
There's a pretty good like oral history that was written
about love and basketball. I think on it's like fifteenth
anniversary a couple of years ago. And yeah, it sounds
like Sana and the director, Gina Prince Bythewood, had a
really like contentious onset relationship because so I didn't know
if she was cast for months and months, and it
was like this weird like her life was on hold.

(07:32):
She was waiting to find out. It sounded like Gina
was trying to Gina was like trying to cast Serena
Williams was trying to cast an athlete in teaching them
how to act instead of teaching an act or how
to play. And I think that there was some production like, no,
you should teach an actor how to play because and
you should definitely teach an actor how to play. Yeah,

(07:53):
like it's it's I feel like it rarely works out
when you try to teach an athlete how to act suxceptions,
but especially if you're gonna get an athlete that's not
even the same sport, that doesn't make sense, like this
isn't a tennis movie. No shade to Serena, But I
had to teach you two things? Yeah, why not you
teach the actor one thing? Yeah, so it sounded yeah,

(08:14):
it sounded like she had or so now I had,
like it was like given a lot to push up
against straight. Yeah, she kind of felt rejected. And I
think it's very hard or any of us actors. I'm
an actor, not professional performer. What the reason why I
asked is because if you are, you know how it
feels when when you feel like you're wanted as a

(08:37):
as an artist period. You know how it forget it
as a person. You know how it feels to be
in a space and feel like you're wanted to be there,
versus being in a space where you feel like you're
not wanted, and then having to be spectacular when you
feel unwanted. You know, and I imagine that that's very difficult.

(08:58):
But I would have never known watching with the performance
she turns in is so incredible and like so but
her own mar Epps were really dating. I know, I
was telling Caitlin before because I hadn't rewatched it in
like a couple of years, but I was like, yeah,
that's that like virginity scene with them is like I

(09:19):
have like such a specific memory of seeing it because
I think at whatever time I saw it, when I
was like eight or nine, it was like the hottest
thing I'd ever witnessed in my life. And so I
was like, wait, is that scene like really hot? And
Caitlin was like, I don't know. I mean it's the
sex scene and then, but I don't know. In my
head it was like the most I mean, yeah, and
when you see it as a senior formative years that

(09:42):
scene is yeah. I think. I don't know if I
think it's hot now, but I definitely. I mean I
was a teenager when I saw it, and I felt
like it was hot. I was wanted a hotter thing
that I had ever seen, yeah until that point. But
also I felt like there was so much like vulnerability
in that scene. Didn't I want to talk all about that? Yeah,
it didn't even when I watch even if I watch

(10:04):
it now, because Loving Basketball is one of those movies
where if it comes on, I'm just gonna watch it,
like if I'm in a hotel. It's like, I don't
know where I was going today, but I'm watching Loving Basketball.
Thanks T and T or whoever whoever plays it. But
I just I just feel like when I watch it.
That is such a typical story. You have this best

(10:25):
friend who's a boy, but he doesn't see you as
like in a track. You know, he doesn't see you
as like this possible love interest. And then you like
step out one day and he like sees you and
you've had this like love for him. I don't know,
it's just as old as time. Yeah. So then when
they did it, I was just like, yeah, y'all gotta

(10:48):
do I very rarely root for people to do it
in movies, especially like young people. It makes me a
little bit uncomfortable, and I was rooting. I was like, yeah,
let's get come on, and it's like one of those
starts this love this, let's start this. However, after already
the love part of love and basketball, I need the
love there, and I feel like watching it now, I'm like, oh,

(11:10):
they're both visibly like, I don't feel that weird about it,
Like it's all right. If if they actually looked seventeen,
maybe i'd feel good about it. But I was like, oh,
they're you know, they're adults. They're supposed to be teenagers,
but they're adults. It's all good here, Uh, should I
get into the group the recap. Yeah, so the structure,
we've got a rather than a three structure this time around.

(11:32):
It's a four quarter structure becauause basketball is split up
into four quarters. Because I guess the only sport that's
really built for the three art structure is hockey. Oh,
they're only three periods in a hockey game. Yes, Well,
where's the hockey movie that exactly follows structure? It's fine? Okay,

(11:53):
So the first quarter. We open in nineteen I think
eighty one, with Monica as a kid. She has moved
to a neighborhood, yes, and she wants to play basketball
with some neighborhood boys, including Quincy, and they're like, um,
you're a girl. Girls can't play basketball girls, and she's like,
screw you, I'm going to be the first woman in

(12:14):
the NBA. And then she plays two on two with
them and she's really really good. And then Quincy's ego
is threatened by this and he pushes her down and
her face gets scuffed up, which I guess gives her
a scar that she has for her life. Yeah. Um,
but then the next day he's like, wait, you're cool.

(12:35):
Would you be my girl? And she says yes, and
then they kiss and then he counts down. He's like,
we need to kiss for five seconds, and he counts
it on his fingers. It's really cute, but then almost
it is. It is. But then almost immediately after that, um,
they break up because Quincy is again his ego is
hurt because she won't ride on the back of his bike.

(12:57):
And then she's like, well, your dad plays for the
worst team in the NBA, because his dad is also
a professional basketball player for the Clippers, I think, and
you get context for why I mean, not that it
excuses it, but you get context for like why Quincy
treats women the way he does pretty quickly, because then
you just see his dad and then you're like, he's like, okay,

(13:20):
my my role model loves basketball and is mean to ladies.
Got it? Got it. So then we move on to
the second quarter, where Monica and Quincy are in high school.
They both play basketball for their high school teams. I
do love that moment when like the movie jumps ahead
in time and then you see the like the person

(13:41):
you know is the main actor. I don't know, it's
just the next that you're like, oh, there she is.
She's on the poster and Monica is hoping to get
recruited to play basketball in college UM, but she has
a bit of a temper and her coach often benches
her because of it, and she doesn't get to play

(14:02):
as much as she would like. UM. She and Quincy
are friends. They watch each other's basketball games, but they're
not in love. Or maybe they are in love, but
like they're not doing anything about it their secretly in love.
They argue a lot. There's a lot of tension the
queens and teasing each other because Quincy is always like
dating someone else and making out with a bunch of

(14:23):
different girls because like, sorry, Quincy's like a star. And
I feel like in the second quarter, first of all,
let me just go back the first quarter. Just as
much as they show Quincy's example and his father, they
show Monica's example in her mother, and it's very important
as to why her temper is, how how it is,
why she's so outspoken, why she is the fighter that

(14:45):
she is right. But then when they go to the
second quarter, I feel like they do a really good
job of showing how little celebration women get for being
as good at something. It's like Quincy is this star, right,
and so he's going to get everything that you can
think a star athlete Mail is going to get, right,

(15:06):
and then Monica is also this star, but she doesn't.
She seems like she's having the hardest time. And I
feel like that was a very accurate representation totally of
what sports are like, what life is like, just for
men and women doing the same thing right, right, because
it's like very clear that Monica is doing the exact

(15:26):
same thing at the same like caliber. But yeah, I mean,
she's getting pushed back from her mom because she's not
quote unquote feminine enough. She's getting pushed back from her sister,
she's getting pushed back from Quincy, who is like I mean,
I feel like, especially there's a lot of people in
her life criticizing her for not being more interested in
dating when it's like she's got a full plate, like

(15:47):
her anger doesn't seem like it's justified in all the
forces that are around her. But then by contrast, yeah,
like Quincy is getting like all the accolades and all
the recruiters love him, and he's like getting all the women,
and like even the girls to try and befriend her
are not befriending her because they think she's cool or talented,
they're befriending her to simply try and get a date

(16:10):
with right right, which is like, yeah, of course she's
fucking pissed off, Like it's yeah. That reminds me when
I was in high school playing soccer. Um, the women's
soccer team scored more points throughout the like the fall
season one year than the football team. And football, when
you score a point it's six or seven points. I
don't really know how football works, but like, the members

(16:30):
of the football team are still like hot ship that
everyone loved and like. And then everyone's like girls soccer,
who wants to watch that? And it's like we're doing
better than the football team and one of their touchdowns
is six times as many points as one of our goals.
But you know what, you know, the only people who
can fix that are women. Everything that men ever do

(16:52):
in life that is gonna sound crazy, especially as young boys,
especially as like adolescents, is that is to get women.
So the way women support men's sports and a go
after men, if we did that for women, it would
only bring it would bring everybody around, because everybody wants
to be where women are. It just it just especially

(17:14):
in high school. Yeah, we're the hot girls. We're going there. Oh,
they're at the girls soccer game. Then we gotta be
at the girls soccer game. And then together they're like, oh, wait,
these girls are really good. That's true. We have to
travel in herds, we have to get Yeah. Damn. So
we didn't have the cheerleaders cheering at artemes. Yeah, I know,

(17:36):
because we didn't have cheerleaders at our games with the
boys had cheerleaders, um at the basketball games. Oh, that's
so frustrated. It's depeated. We had them if our game
was on a day where the boys weren't playing. But
if it was, if we ever played when they played,
then the priority. Yeah, I mean tracks. But then we
want a city championships, right exactly. Anyway, So so she

(18:05):
and Quincy their friends, they argue a lot, and then
it's the last game of the season. It's like the
championship game for Monica, but her team loses by one
point and she's devastated. Uh. Then there's this spring dance
where Monica's sister, Lena, played by Regina Hall, sets Monica
up with this cute college boy who she knows, and

(18:25):
then Quincy also goes to the dance with Shawnee Gabrielle
Union's character, and Quincy and Monica both act like they're
not into each other, but they very clearly are, because
they're staring at each other while they're dancing with other
people and there's an in sync song playing even though
it's but you know, yeah, I just got paid Friday nights.

(18:47):
I'm like, I could pull up any song from Bye
Bye Bye from memory. I like, now, are you sure
the instinct didn't make this song over? I'm pretty sure.
I Actually I should check because I was like, but
it sounded like it was justin timber Lay's voice. I
can't tell, right, Okay, I'll triple check it because I
was like, wait, is what what? Anyways, let's let's table it. Okay,

(19:07):
I'll look at it. And then they both go home
after the dance and they're still next door neighbors and
they're like, hey, she opens a letter from USC saying
that she's been recruited to play basketball for them, and
he's like, I'm going there too, and then they kiss,
and then they go into her room and have sex.

(19:27):
Then we cut to the third quarter. They are both
freshman at USC, they're in love. They are together. They're
both playing basketball for the teams at USC, and Monica's
coach and a few of her upperclassmen teammates are giving
her a hard time because she's like, you know, a rookie.
But again, Quincy is having a very easy time and

(19:49):
everyone loves him and the fans, the coaches, he's he's
having a very easy go of it. But then he
finds out that his dad was having an affair, or
maybe it's currently having an affair. And some of my
favorite any time we're talking about this yesterday, but anytime
there's like they're cheating. Look, and then private detective photos
come out and they're like the most incriminating thing humanly

(20:12):
possible and also impossibly close. I love movie private detective photos.
I mean, there's no question about what it's like, high
resolution like and whenever you see like real p I photos,
you're like, oh, I sort of see what's going on there,
but it's like high resolution Mr Hall State like committing
a deed. Um Anyways, So what happens after that? He

(20:36):
needs Monica to be there for him, but it's important
for her to make her few right. She is having
to balance both love and basketball and at this one
moment when he's kind of, you know, his family is
being torn apart, he's having a rough time. She's like, well,
I can't be there for you right now. I have
to make her few or else I won't be able

(20:57):
to start in the game. And he gets really hurt
and mad, and he kind of teaches her lesson by
taking another girl on a date, like right in front
of her, and then he breaks up with her. He's like,
you're not here for me. I'm going to drop out
of school anyway and go pro. Then, well know, he

(21:18):
has a famous line. He says, why don't you go
fuck Dick Vital? That line only because that time Dick
Vital was so like such a big sports name in sports,
a sports commentator. I was like I had to look up. Oh,
he was such a big deal, and like he was
just such a big deal, like I believe in the

(21:38):
nineties in early two thousand's, and so for him to
call her out like that, it was like, oh, I
mean that was pretty instant. That's like like if somebody
was trying to be a singer and it was like,
why don't you a funk? Ryan's secrets, Like I don't know,
I don't know, but it was something like that. It
was like the nerve of him and vital with some

(22:00):
old ass white man. Is he the person they play
a clip of in the movie. There's like that weird
cut to like an ESPN is old ass white man.
So for him to say that, but he was like,
you know, dick bits out was such a huge sports
commoner comment comment. He was huge. Okay, Okay, that means

(22:23):
because every time that part had since I've seen this
movie for the first time, I was like, who the
fund is that? Why does he have so much screen time?
Like he must be famous otherwise this part makes yeah, okay, yeah,
okay that that breakup scene is so oh. I just
think it's so mad for every single time she was
one night, it was one night, she was there for

(22:44):
most of the time all the other night anyway, So okay.
Then we cut to the fourth quarter and it's a
few years later. Monica is playing pro ball in Spain.
Quincy is playing for the Lakers, but he tears his
a c l and he's in the hospital and Monica
goes to visit him, and the entire banks comes in

(23:05):
and she's like, we're engaged. I always forget tire Banks
is in this and then she suddenly is and you're like,
oh the time too. But like when I at the
time when I I was like, oh that that's so cool,
look Tyra Banks. But now when I look back at it,
I'm like, yeah, like even an injured as athlete can
get like a supermodel as much as she was only

(23:27):
playing like a flight attendant or something. But it's like like,
he ain't got ship going, he ain't got no college degree.
And then there's like that scene where like Alfrey Woodard
is like, you know, he can do better. I'm like
better the entire banks What are you talking about? I mean,
I know I love talking about Monica. Yeah, like the

(23:47):
first time she says something nice to her daughter, Oh,
that relationship is so I mean, I can't wait to
talk about it. Yeah. Sorry, So you know, Monica is like,
oh no, he's engaged. And then she decides that basketball
isn't really fun for her anymore. She decides to kind
of give it up. She's like something's missing from it.

(24:10):
I think she ends up getting a job working at
her dad's bank, and then Quincy's like, I don't get it.
You love basketball. And then one night, she wakes him
up because they're both staying at their parents houses, which
are again next door to each other, and she's like,
what's missing from basketball? Is you? Quincy? I love you?

(24:32):
I love you. Since I was eleven, I was like,
I'm getting married to Tyra Banks. I love Tyra Banks.
But then she wants to play him for his heart. Yeah.
She thinks that if he lets her win, that will
be like the signal that he wants to be with her.
But he doesn't let her win. He wins, and she's
like no, she's walking away and he's like, wait a minute,

(24:55):
that part a little bit different. Okay. I didn't see
it as mom of thought that he would let her win.
I thought that she truly thought that she had a
chance at beating Yeah. I think it's a little bit
more empowering. That's why when she misses or whatever, it's
like a final shot where she misses or he makes it,

(25:16):
and it's like devastating for her, but it's not devastated
like want want, like how dare you make that? It's
like how did I let that? She beats herself up
as if it's the championship game in high school. So
I don't think she was like, he'll let me win
in that proves he loves me. I think that it
was a surprise after she loses and he's like, god it,

(25:38):
I totally see that. I was thinking, like, because there's
that scene earlier when they're in college and like they're
playing like strip basketball and she said something like or
he's like, oh, I let you win or something because
like so they could like strip and see each other naked.
So I thought that was like a kind of a
continuation of that, but also like, I think what you're
saying makes more sense, and it's probably the case. See,
like I think it was. I think it was like, yeah,

(26:00):
this is what we used to do. But I think
she truly thought, like if somebody says you're the only
thing missing from like what's missing from basketball is you?
I think she really that was her last That was
her last line, and to fit it's like I'm gonna
I'm gonna try and beat you and you'll have to
be with me. And I think she really believed. I mean,
he had a freaking knee brace someone. Right. If I
can't beat you any other time, isn't it beat you

(26:23):
after you just toy your a c M. Yeah, yeah,
I mean either way, like it's you get that amazing
moment of like him having to like he wins, he
has all of a sudden the power in this situation.
And then it almost like she inadvertently or depending on
how you look at it, maybe on purpose, he has
to like call his own bluff and be like I

(26:44):
wont but like and then kiss, and then we're like,
poor Tyra Banks, I don't give a shit about I
was so invested in Monica and Quincy it was tortured
to even say, I'm like, get when are we gonna
get back on track? Oh, it's and it is, like

(27:05):
it is so satisfying when they Yeah, I get very
emotional about it. And then at the end, Yeah, So
we cut to what I think should have been called
overtime because we've got the first four quarters and then
we've got another flash forwards and I know, right, but
we see Monica and Quincy. They are married, they have
a baby. He's sitting on the sidelines with the baby

(27:26):
and she's playing in the w n B A. Yeah,
a love story, right, I'm like this, um man. I
guess Monica moves for a while, but for the most part.
I'm like, Quincy never had to move his entire life.
That's that's good for him. Um. So yeah, that's the story.
Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right

(27:47):
back to discuss. And we're back. Where should we start?
Where to get There's a lot to cover. Yeah, there's love,
there's basketball, and then that's just the beginning. I guess
there's two topics to this. Well, I mean, DAP, as

(28:10):
you already mentioned, like this is almost an entirely black cast.
This is every major role being played by a black actor.
I think the only exception is Monica has a white
coach in college, but she's kind of like she's in
like three and there's that one on one where it's whatever,
that like coach thing where they're like I'm hard on

(28:31):
you because I care, like alright whatever by and like yeah,
but yeah, I almost I forgot about her, right, But yeah,
I mean, it's representation that we don't see very much
in mainstream movies especially, and the fact that it's I mean,
and we've already sort of started to touch on this,
but like women being athletes, Black women being athletes, and

(28:52):
like having it treated with the you know, like importance
that it deserves to be treated is so cool. We
have uh black female director who wrote and directed this movie.
This is I think this was her first movie ever
that she made, and so yeah, you have like a
lot of this movie has right right from I was

(29:13):
gonna say, right from the jump corny okay, right from
the beginning up shot, so much going for it that most,
I mean most movies period, much less an athletic movie
would have UM and I hope I'm saying her name.
Gina Prince bythewood. Um was also like at least a
high school basketball player. And I was doing some research

(29:35):
on the production of this movie, and I guess she
one of her frustrations was that she had seen women
playing basketball and movies before, but she thought it was
never filmed well and so that female basketball players, and
especially black female basketball players, had been done in disservice
where there been a movie that was about it. And

(29:57):
even when there was seen, like she was like, they
were clearly not playing real basketball. They didn't look like
they had the athletic power that female basketball players have
to have, and so she was kind of leading with
like that being the goal and then built this story
kind of around it. Interesting. Yeah, I will say that.

(30:18):
You know who looked like they couldn't play a look
of basketball? Quincy? He looks like I was like, okay,
we gotta start with him playing basketball. Any scenes where
he has to look like he's playing basketball, because it's
pretty terrible. Yeah. Also, okay, not to body shame Omar Epps,
but he somehow makes it to the NBA. He's like
five ten or so, Like he seems so short, and

(30:40):
again it shout out to all our short kings out
there that is even that short, but like, um short king,
I'm like, how did you make it to pay basketball
when you're pretty average? The same way Tom Cruise climbs
a freaking building and jumps out of a plane. It
saves everybody, and he's four to I think we thought

(31:02):
that Quincy was I think I assumed that Quincy was
taller than Omar Epps is in real life. I have
no idea what his height was, but I mean that
was yeah. I mean it's it doesn't help that like
his father is really like taller, ye much taller than him. Yeah,

(31:22):
I don't know. I mean also, I feel like you
can kind of easily justify the height discrepancy by being like, well,
he's also got like some pretty strong nepotism going for
him to also he played the correct position for his height. Like,
what we have to remember is some of our best
basketball players, some of our favorite basketball players around that time,
especially one of the biggest basketball players when we loving

(31:43):
basketball came out with Alan Iverson, who was a point
guard and he was a very small So point guards
are normally shorter or that they don't have to be Like, no,
they don't have to be seven football. I mean it's
great when they are great when if you're doing anything,
if you're taller, that's going to give you more wing
span more. But a lot out of them and some
of the really good ones have been smaller. Okay, that

(32:04):
makes sense. I don't know enough about an athlete not
smaller for a regular brand. I think what we have
to also remember at that time is Omar EPs was
like wanted to black guys. You know, he had done
so many movies that were like sort of coming of
age black movies, and so it just just forget like
what's true to a story. What also happens in Hollywood

(32:27):
is like who will people pay to see? Right? Oh, Like,
let's get I think Tubac was dead already. Okay, I'm going,
I'm going. I'm just saying, there's still that same thing
where you wonder, like why did they get this person
to play this role? Oh, they were hot at they
were that hot at the time, And like Omar Epps
had already played an athlete and like two other movies.

(32:48):
So it's like he was just and and it seems
like um for the director as well, he was. It's
so weird how like the characters, the way the characters
are treated by the story also kind of mirrors how
the director's relations to with them, because like Omar Epps
was her first choice, there was never a question. He
kind of sailed through it and then in the in
the meantime, so I had an incredibly difficult time throughout

(33:09):
the entire thing, and just there were more just kind
of just like Monica by mistake, and yeah, I didn't
realize or maybe I'd forgotten that she and Omar Epps
were dating for the whole time of this movie. That
I just love when people, um have love and basketball. Yes,
I guess that's what I'm saying. Um. Just to continue

(33:30):
the conversation about women in sports and the movies about them.
Most sports movies are not about women, believe it or not.
Um imagine that there are some though, and we've covered
a fair amount of them on the podcast already. Between
a League of their Own, Bend It like Beckham, bring
It on Center Stage is either a recent episode or
upcoming episode depending on when this episode comes out, and

(33:51):
then also black Swan is an upcoming episode, and then
we also covered a Tania on the Matreon. But um,
it's just worth noting that so few sports movies are
focused on women. But it's also comes at no surprise
to us because women's sports are not valued by the
general public. But it's always like when especially when movies

(34:14):
about female athletes do well, it always like raises the
tide for like your saying thing I have, like seeing
yourself on screen and like the impact of maybe like
a young girl who wanted to play basketball but didn't,
like you know, sometimes you're just like, is that what
I should be doing? Is this like what a girl
like quote unquote can do? And then you see a

(34:36):
movie like this and you're like, oh, okay, I could
see that great, um okay, so well, we've covered some
of the basketball part of Love and basketball. Um, should
we cover some of the love forever the love because
the love is where things get a little um trickier.
So the relationship between Monica and Quincy is often a

(34:57):
bit tumultuous. He is per perhaps not a feminist icon
in that he does have a pretty fragile male ego
throughout the starting from all of the quarters. The quarters
lashes out with ego related stuff, starting with you know
at the very beginning when he's saying like, girls can't

(35:18):
play ball and then scars her for a life, but
pushes her down because she's about to beat him, and
he's like, well, I can't have that. I can't have
a girl beating me at basketball. So and then you
know she does. There's the exchange where she says, I'm
going to be the first girl in the n b
A and he's like, you're not going to be in
the NBA. I'm going to be in the NBA and
you're gonna be my cheerleader. That doesn't set necessarily a

(35:39):
good example for the rest of their relationship. Also, like
the whole like you have to sit on my bike
and I'll drive you around. She's like, I want to
ride my own bike. Then he pushes her down again,
but she fights back and you know, insults his dad
and the clippers and stuff. Uh. Then they're in high school.
This is before they get together. He still isn't tree

(36:00):
in her very well. He negs her a lot. Well
there's I mean, there's that whole setup throughout their kind
of relationship in high school and college where he seems
to like kind of continuously flirt with other women to
quote unquote teach her a lesson, which ends up kind
of being one of the reasons that they like break
up and things kind of come to a head. Is

(36:21):
like any time she is whatever, not doing what he
wants her to do or not acting how she wants
him to act um or sorry reverse that he will
initiate like kind of emotional warfare and be like, Okay, well,
if you're not going to do this, then I'm going
to go talk to you know, and just almost reminding
her like I have options, I don't need you, and

(36:41):
just kind of using that to put her down when
she's already so kept down by so many things. It
makes me man for her sometimes then, right, I know,
I feel so bad because I'm like I have so
much sympathy frequency. Really I do. I know that. That's
like as you're as you were talking, I was thinking
like even when I even when I was young and

(37:02):
saw the movie, I don't know. I have a lot
of siblings, and so when I see the behavior, like,
obviously it's all I see it. Definitely its egotistical, but
I also I see it more as immaturity, and I
see Quincy was like an only child, and he truly
mirrored exactly what he saw with his dad. Yeah, with

(37:23):
his dad and his mom, Like, he truly mirrored exactly that.
And then I think, like when we first saw them,
there are certain things that are like true to a time, right.
So like if I see a movie that's in like
um during slavery or something, right, and somebody wants somebody
to be super like a superhero, right, but they instead
get whipped, It's like, yeah, that was slavery. That's what

(37:46):
happened in historically, you know what I'm saying. And so
when I think about him doing what he did, when
him saying girls don't play basketball, when I think about
as much as I was not born in I can't
think of any images even in the eighties where I
saw women playing basketball. I didn't know no friends who
played basketball. The first time that I played basketball, which
was in the late nineties, nobody was like, you should

(38:08):
play basketball. I saw no examples. It was just like
I walked in the gym one day and it was
a basketball and some other girls were playing and I
was tall enough, and it was like, you should probably
do this too, you know. But so I feel like
his statement, while it sounds so misogynistic, it's it's actually

(38:28):
just like a fact of that time, and it's like
what he knows, right. That's like one thing that I
think that this movie does really well is even when
Quincy is saying stuff that like now and and in
some instance for its time as well, like sound misogynists
and cruel, and at times it genuinely is like sometimes

(38:48):
the way he treats Monica, you're like, this is not okay. Uh.
But I at least appreciate that the movie makes it
clear to you that his behavior and her behavior don't
exist in a vacuum, and you get this equal focus
on like, you know, he's very clearly pulling from the
behavior of his father, and and to watch him I

(39:10):
wish it even like I guess perfect world. I wish
that things coming to a head with his father and
him kind of losing faith, and like, you know that
moment that I feel like happens for a lot of
people where you're like, oh, my parent doesn't perfect and
like there goes my hero or whatever that's the name
of a song, right, But like you know, when when

(39:30):
that kind of all comes crashing down, you almost like
wanted to impact his behavior even more, but like you
do see where it comes from, I don't know. And
and just like watching the way he and Monica deal
with things differently, where Quincy sees an example and he
emulates it, you can't really fault him for that. That's
what kids do. But then you see Monica seas an

(39:51):
example and her mother and she rejects it, and she's like,
I don't want to be that person. I see how
my mom is treated, like in that amazing scene where
she's like, I saw how you know, dad treated you,
and I didn't want to be that person. So yeah,
I mean, it's it's it's tough because like Quincy has
a ton of toxic behavior that I feel like Monica,

(40:13):
I mean, I think, okay, this is maybe getting a
little off dunk, but like the thing that bothered me.
I mean, you could make the argument that he maybe
should have demonstrated a little more improvement as a person
before Monica should have taken him back. But what frustrated
me on like a doing whatever a critical rewatch, which
I've never done for this movie, was at the end

(40:36):
he like owes her an apology for the way they
broke up, Like that was very clearly on him. It
was all writing on like you couldn't be there for
me when I needed you. It was one night, Like
it's I feel like with a few years of distance,
you could be like, Okay, I overreacted maybe, And he
doesn't apologize to her. She apologizes to him for being

(40:58):
like I should have been there that night, and I
was like, no, you shouldn't have. You won that game,
like you know. So that is my major thing with
their relationship is like I wish he had made more
of a change in the way that he deals with
his life before she took him, because you write a
lot of it is like him being immature and like
modeling his behavior after the examples that are set for

(41:19):
him by his parents, and that's how parenting works, and
that's how children are raised. So you like there's a yeah,
we can't place too much blame on him as a
younger person, but as he as he grows and you know,
sees the world around him and really starts to understand
how the world works, and that you can't you know,
be constantly disrespecting women and your girlfriend. Yeah, and so

(41:41):
we do better at basketball the way. Also, he was
like so codependent, Like as when we see Monica after
him as an adult, we see her always on her own.
We see her in this different country. I think it's
like really like like everybody travels now right at the
very least for an Instagram post, But that's feel like
as a single woman playing but you know, in in

(42:03):
the early nineties, for you to just be going around
the world, especially when your example of what a woman
should do is your mom, who is dependent on your father,
I just felt like that was so like vogue for
her to do that was you know, she just was
clearly like the stronger person all of the time, and
he was cold, depending he was never alone and he

(42:24):
never really had to like answer for that or I mean,
you you hope. I like to think by the end
end of the movie, where she's in the w n
b A and he's kind of like doing the stay
at home dad thing or we don't know what he's doing,
but he's he's there being the supportive force. It's kind
of the first time where we see him being the
supportive force where she's supporting him the entire movie until

(42:45):
they break up. And then it was nice at the
end to see like, Okay, he is going to be
a supportive force for her finally, like he owes her that,
and you hope that these discussions have been maybe head
off screen, you know, maybe well she's pregnant, maybe they're
just figuring stuff out at the house. I don't know,
but yeah, yeah, Like she is such a strong, cool person.

(43:10):
And sometimes I'm like, does Quincy fully understand how fucking
great Monica is? I hope, I hope so, I hope
so um and another it's like the Monica defense force.
And then also, I mean, even though his behavior, like
we said, is toxic in a lot of ways, especially
when he's younger, she's always challenging it. She's always pushing

(43:32):
back against against like several characters who are giving her
a hard time. Her mom's always like be more feminine,
quit acting like a boy all the time. Her dad's like,
you know, control your temper. Quincy says, control your temper,
and she calls out this like sexist double standard. At
one point where she says to Quincy, there in high school,
she says, you know, you jump in some guy's face,
you talk, smack, you get a pad on your ass,
basically saying like you get congratulated for getting angry, but

(43:56):
because I'm a female, I get told to calm down
and act like a lady. Uh. And that just I
mean we had uh. Friend of the cast Saya Shamali
on the podcast. Her book Rage Becomes Her is all
about how historically women's anger hasn't been allowed, hasn't been
socially acceptable. Women just aren't allowed to be angry or

(44:17):
express anger. And she's doing that and she's she's like,
I should be allowed to be angry, like I lost
a game, Like let me emote about that, and people
are just like no, no, no, no. Compending her mother too,
her mother is like calling her out if for some reason,
it plays on the DVD menu, Like that scene just
plays on the DVD menu. It's such a weird choice.
But yeah, her mom calls her out for displaying too

(44:40):
much emotion about her performance in the game, like she's like,
it's just a game, Yeah, relax, like you. She says
something like that attitude you get when you lose is
like not whatever, not becoming um. She tells her to
smile more at one point too, and and yet and
Monica never folds to that for sure. Yeah so yeah, uh.

(45:00):
Monica is always pushing back, challenging the status quo, challenging
anything like sexist that gets said to her, and which
is so interesting too because it's also that conversation like
nature versus nurture, Like you know, it's like Quincy, it's
like Monica has no example of strength really, but she's
the strong person. I don't want to say that because

(45:21):
I feel like there's something strong in the choice that
her mom made to I feel like, whatever, Okay, she's nothing,
nothing like her mom. So that's just nature, right, who
how she is and who she is, it's just nature.
But then Quincy is like all nurture, like I'm this
is all I'm a product of. Yeah, And I think
that that was very I like, I mean yeah, because

(45:42):
I feel like everyone's I don't know, there should be
like some nature nurture spectrum of like some people fall
a little more on the like, yeah, this is just
how they are, and then some people very much are
like I'm following, and so it's those footsteps were like
this is what I saw. I don't know, Yeah, Monica
is saw her own person. I think it was like
a really interesting choice to also include her sister, who

(46:04):
is very much more on the nurture side of like
she's going basically with her mother's example, and we see
her later that you know, she's she's a stay at
home mom and she's had a kid and all this stuff,
and that she's kind of rewarded with the favorite title
for taking her mom's cues versus pushing against them. Um,

(46:24):
because it just stands to make Monica even more like
unique in her own family of like, yeah, it's not
like her sister wasn't like impervious to it. And in
most scenes with her sister, it's her sister like brushing
and doing her hair, and it's like a very like
you know, feminine kind of domestic type of thing. And
and we're not saying that like that is lesser than

(46:47):
you know, Monica playing basketball and choosing like that's you know,
they're they're just different as all. I don't think the
movie is saying that either. The movie is not passing
judgment on her sister for going a different way, but
it's just I guess her mom. Really, I feel like
she passed the judgment on her own mom. But I
don't think the movie is because you I would say, yeah,

(47:09):
I feel like because you get that scene with the
two of them, and and Monica is you know, kind
of like you know why she's doing it, but you're like, oh,
he's up a little bit where she's shipping on her
mom because her mom it's so like it breaks her
heart a little bit because her mom keeps bringing up
when Monica like got dolled up for the prom and

(47:30):
looked traditionally like feminine the way her mom wanted her to.
And her mom's always like, that's my proudest memory of you,
like when I was making you do something you didn't
want to do. And she brings that up again, and
Monica snaps at her, and then we get to see
how her mom what is that it's Camille as a
name of the character, and then Camille kind of gives
her perspective of like I had dreams too. There were

(47:53):
I mean, like you were saying saying like she's a
product of her time in a lot of ways, where
like she got pregnant and felt like, well, this is
the option and had to like kind of sideline her
own ambition, and also she thought that I do think
the movie was passing a little bit of judgment on
the homemaker. But I think that they also were like,
but here's why, Like I feel like they tried to

(48:15):
give both sides of like, here's the problem, but let's
just show what causes. Let's just show why it's not
really you know, where her mom said, Like, I feel
like the mom felt like she was a hero or
a hero in some sense because she was like, yeah,
but I made sure that you guys always ate. I

(48:35):
made like this is what I could do well, and
I did it as best as I could. Every single day.
I showed up. I set aside sometimes what made me happy,
because this is what made your dad happy, and that
allowed your lives to be what they are. And I
think a lot of mothers do. I have friends that
are mothers like their young mothers, and they still are like,

(49:00):
my husband won't take the trash out, And in my mind,
I'm like, just don't take the fucking trash out. You
have to just don't do Yeah, now we just all
living in trash. Somebody got a break first, but they
always take the trash out. Do you know what I'm saying,
which just allows the behavior. Well, that's I think that
is actually what Monica is passing judgment against her mom for,

(49:22):
which is not pushing back. Never There's that scene early
on when um, Monica's dad is like which shirt should
I wear? And she's like this one. He's like, well
just iron them both just in case, and she's like, okay,
I guess I have to do all your own and like, yeah,
she never challenged, she never pushed back, and like, maybe
why don't you learn how to iron yourself and I
earn your own shirt? But um, and that's what Monica

(49:43):
was like, it's not that you're a homemaker, it's not
that I passed no judgment against that mom. It's that
you never challenged anything, You never stood up for yourself.
Um that Yeah, I mean that's just an interesting dynamic. Yeah,
And like that generation gap just kind of being because
that's kind of like the Boomer gen X divide is

(50:03):
like starting with gen X, that was like a more
like let me fucking do something. I'm going to keep
challenging it. And that's why I think why you're saying,
like Monica like allowed herself to be angry and like
allowed herself to to have a temper and to have
a quote attitude because she's like, well, if my mom's
not going to do it, like, I don't want to.
I don't want to do that. That's not who I am.
I don't want to be that, and I'm going to

(50:25):
because you could see moments where like her mom wanted to,
She's like, I really don't have to iron both, but
she didn't. She didn't say anything, and um, she just
chose to remain silent, and that's like what bothered Monica. Yeah. Also,
I think it would have been very different, and this
is just a small stipulation in a pet peeve of mine.

(50:46):
If he would have said, hey, baby, I'm not sure
which one I want to wear? Can you iron both?
But to come in and say what do you think?
Oh you think that? Why don't you just eye your both?
It's like why did you even add my opinion? Yeah,
Because then he's just saying like well, funk what you think,
I don't trust your Yeah, yeah, there's and and then

(51:07):
there's a lot. I mean you don't see her quite
as much. But I thought that um Quincy's mom is
also an interesting character where you get that scene where
she is, you know, miserable she's found out that her
husband's been cheating on her. On top of you know,
we knew that their relationship was in trouble anyways because
we saw them fighting, We saw him also expecting her

(51:29):
to do stuff that she was just like, give me
this one thing, and what he wasn't doing it. And
then there's that scene where Quincy, you know, you kind
of see him fall apart in a way because his
mom is devastated. She's like, your father has been cheating
on me, and he doesn't believe her. At first, he's like,
there's no way that could be true, because if that's true,
then like his whole view of himself is going to

(51:50):
have to change. But it's like the French people are mad.
But but it's like it's interesting that like, yeah, he
like Quincy is so caught up in this view of
his father because of the way he's been brought up
that you know, it's like his mom needs to have
these high res p I photos for her son to

(52:12):
be like, oh fuck, this is happening, which was like,
I don't know. I thought that that was like a
well written moment for Quincy because you're like, oh, he's
like far down the rabbit hole of like my dad
is perfect, Like his mother is in tears and drunk
by the pool, and he's like, I don't know, it
seems like you might be overreacting, you know. Um, yeah,

(52:33):
I thought I wish. I almost wish that relationship was
explored a little bit more, but it's like you only
got so many minutes. And then they apparently get divorced
because we see Quincy's mom with a new heir and
a new man. I like, I like, I like that
like weird movie like film language where Quincy's dad fat
and I think it's the third quarter. He's a little

(52:54):
down to his luck. He's gone through a divorce and
it's just communicated to you by him being at a
bar by himself, and you're like, oh, he's not and
he's like wearing beige and you're like he's not doing great,
and he's not doing great. Yeah, we got to take
another quick break, So time out and then we'll be
right back and we're back. Um. Can we talk about

(53:22):
the subplot with Sidra, Yeah, teammate in college that I
found to be interesting and like also kind of reflective
of this of the time where with women playing basketball
in the late eighties, which is when she's in college
into the early nineties, the trajectory for for women to

(53:44):
continue being athletes and to be pro athletes, they have
to go overseas, Like there's no w n B A
in the US yet. Um, so I understand they're like
this then creating this intense competition between women who are teammates,
but there's still, you know, there's still this sense of like, well,
there's so few opportunities for us that we kind of
have to compete against each other. Like best case scenario,

(54:06):
they have to uproot their lives and move to Spain, right, Um,
Because you see this moment early on when Sidra is
like spotting her as she's bench pressing, and she says
something like, you know, just because we played the same position,
doesn't mean we need to compete with each other. Just kidding,
you're a soft asked freshman, and then she drops the

(54:27):
bench pressed bar thing on her um. So it's like, oh,
that was also close to being nice moment, but then
it's like, oh wait, well, like when you contextualize, it's like, yes,
like and there are so many spaces where just not
that many women are allowed still, and we do feel
like we have to compete against each other for yeah,
like for its time that dynamic, like, and I like
how it develops over the course of the movie too,

(54:48):
and you see they reach to truth and then they
become friends and this whole thing. But it's like it
sucks because it is like it is like a movie
troupe of just like women being against each other irrationally
just because like is another woman in the room. She's
my competition for this guy. But that's not their dynamic.
It's like they are in competition for the same very
finite thing. And I don't know, I feel like even

(55:10):
like I've felt that way before, and it makes me
feel bad to think about now, like being in a
space where you're like, Okay, there's only so many spots
that I will be allowed to fill, and so like
I'm not here to make friends, and so her attitude
makes it sucks because it's like it's hard to watch
and you're like, why can't we all just be on this?

(55:33):
But but I think that, yeah, that the characters are
written at first, I mean, she seems maybe a little
mean at first glance where she drops the barbell on Monica.
That was maybe not very cool, but you get you
get the context for it. I feel like, you know,
I hate that narrative period that like women have to fight.
I really do um and I do recognize it in

(55:54):
a lot of instances, there is this finite space that
we feel we need to compete for. But I think
that's also true too. I think that a lot of
what we see in the athletics of this seems like
why the girl's gotta be like that, But it's just
that's athletics. It's just that we focus on Monica in
this story because this story really isn't about Quincy. The
story is about Monica, and so that's something that's going

(56:15):
to happen. Also in the male locker room between a
freshman and the scene, I think that I think that
they probably recruit a little bit differently. You know, like
there's probably way more number one teams for men to go.
There's way more prospering teams for a male athlete to
go to than a female athlete. But I think you
get that. I think you get that same thing. No,

(56:36):
no senior wants a freshman, regardless of their gender to
come in and take their spot. Absolutelyeah, And I feel
like there's I don't watch sports movies, so I can't
name examples off the top of my head, but there's
definitely examples of like male driven sports movies where you
see kind of the same dynamic rookie of the year.
Probably I have never seen it, but but it is, Yeah,

(56:58):
that that totally makes sense what I liked about Sidre
or like, you know, she she is like coming in hot,
She's very clearly threatened by Monica's presence, and but then
when she loses her spot, she I almost you're like, oh,
the worst thing this movie could do right now is
like have them getting a fight or like some one
of those really trophy like over the top things. But

(57:21):
I really was like, I really like how that scene,
like the choice that part, yeah she takes, she has
like a ton of dignity about it, and she's clearly
piste off because fucking of course she is, but she
just is like don't let this happen to you buy
and and then they see each other in Spain years later.
I was like, oh, that's like classy as hell, Like

(57:42):
not a lot of people have that. And then she's
like and then they get dinner together and there's like
a little playful banter where she's like, here's my championship trophy.
It's here on the table um and then but like, yeah,
Sidre was like, are you fucking Spanish guys or what?
And she's like, no, you ever had sex with one person?
Can we can we talk about that really quick? That

(58:02):
was one thing that I was like, movie, are you
gonna do that? Where? Okay, so and I'm sure that
there's a case against this, but I feel like, okay,
this is this sort of lines up with prejudices of
that time. That's sort of like still bleed into now.
But like I think the movie wants us to believe
that Monica has only ever had sex with Quincy. That

(58:24):
is sort of the implication we're getting at every moment,
and you know, like we're raised from so young or
I remember, I think probably a lot of why this
romance appealed to me so much when I was little
as like, oh, the first boy I kiss, He's going
to be the one person that I'm ever with, and
like that is something that I think especially girls are
raised with. It is like you are supposed to be

(58:45):
with one person, where boys are often encouraged to, you know,
like get around and be promiscuous, and like they're not
telling me, just in terms of math, how is that possible?
Like if every girl is only ever with one person,
how are men with so many people? About women? They
were just like I never married my one person, Like yeah,

(59:06):
it's like you can't imagine having to marry your first
kiss terrifying. I would I would live in Hartford, would
be I would be in trouble. Okay, Anyways, this movie
is challenging of so many things, and that was one
thing that you're like, oh that it didn't really push
back on that kind of fantasy we're presented with as

(59:27):
kids as because it's made clear started from when he's
like fifteen sixteen, Quincy is like not discouraged from being
promiscuous and like we're not shaming him for that, but
it's like his mom is like whose earring is this his?
But it's only his mom. His dad's like this rules.
His friends are like this rules. Every girl at school

(59:47):
is throwing themselves at him. Gabrielle Union is sending her
couchie through the mail, which is my favorite line of
the Glunion is there. Uh and and like his like
promisecuity is never calling the question, which it shouldn't be.
But I feel like the movie just I thought it
would have been cool if like Monica had had another
boyfriend or just it would have been cool too because

(01:00:09):
because and there's just I just always have it in
my head of like sometimes it's like you need this
is my opinion of I'm like, sometimes you need a
second relationship just to know if the first relationship was
like the right one, because otherwise you have no nothing
to compare it to. And then you're like I could
be having terrible sex forever you'd never know. So that
was like one thing that I'm like, I I wish

(01:00:30):
that Monica had been sort of allowed by the story
to have more of a personal life. A Spaniard boyfriend. Yeah,
why couldn't you have had sex with one of the
Spanish guys? When she was like, no, these guys aren't
my type, I'm like, what are you talking about? I
thought that it was doing two things and I'm really

(01:00:51):
probably gonna get to go into part for this, So
I thought that they were trying to point out like, yeah,
Monica has only ever been with Quincy, which is like,
if that's true, if you know, for women out there,
if that's the case, that's fine as well, but also
like it's totally fine to be fucking you know whatever.
But I also thought that, and this may be because

(01:01:13):
I was around a lot of female athletes, and I
think that something that you fight against is a female athlete,
is being straight or gay, okay, And I felt like
with Cidrus characters specifically, they had her speak sort of
very cavalier in that way about her sex life in
Spain to sort of address like, two female athletes can

(01:01:37):
be together and they don't they don't have to be
gay women. Yeah, I think that that's I just thought
at that time, like, I don't think that that's something.
I don't think that's the conversation if that, if Love
and Basketball was made, that they would feel the need
to touch on. But I think Loving Basketball came out
in two thousand, I don't think there was nearly as
much acceptance or pride or you know, what I'm saying, Like,

(01:02:01):
I just think that it was still pretty taboo, and
and at being a period piece on top of that,
are you're like, oh, it's the late eighties there, that's interesting.
I hadn't even thought about that. And and Monica kind
of directly addresses in a, you know, not a elegant way,
but addresses, yeah, that assumption that she would be queer

(01:02:22):
or I mean, she's she like yells at her mom like, oh,
you think I'm a lesbian because I've always focused on
my game. Well that's not true. So she's kind like
in some ways she's addressing this stereotype. And then she's
also doing this no homo thing that is like eighties
and two recently because it's this scene where her like
mom's like, why why can't you dress more like a

(01:02:44):
girl and stuff like that, and she's like, let's go
on the lesbian and then her mom goes and she's like, no,
I'm not, but like, but yeah, I mean that that
almost it's I don't think it's as bad as this example,
but like that reminded me of a scene. And there's
something about Mary where uh, Cameron dial is like jokes
a out being bisexual as a way to be like,
got you, Ben Stiller, So like any time when queerness

(01:03:05):
is like lied about as either kind of a weapon
or a joke against someone else, like that's obviously not okay,
Yeah it was. She is kind of addressing like that
stereotyche talk and yeah, and she's doing it to like
challenge her mom, because her mom, And that reminds me
of of a storyline and Benditt like Beckham where the
Cure Nightly character's mom is like, why can't you wear
like lacy bras and dresses and why do you always

(01:03:28):
address like a boy and act like a boy, because
like Monica is pretty tomboyish and she embraces and she's
fine with that, and tomboy isn't getting those screen times.
I know I was a tomboy growing up, and like
and yeah, like it's it's nice represence. And there is
that like kind of trophy scene in the very beginning
where the person that you thought was a boy takes

(01:03:50):
off their hat or takes off their helmet and they're
a girl, a girl, which does happen this movie, but
the way it's handled in terms of like her being like, yeah,
I'm a lesbian just kidding is not handled well, but
there is like her again just constantly pushing back against
like the status quo and like the stereotypes that are
pushed on her. So yeah, if that scene was written

(01:04:13):
in it would sound different, but I feel like, yeah,
it's it's kind of clear what she's saying, even though
she's saying it in a very nineteen eighty whatever way.
I also wanted to talk about the sex scene a
little bit more, Yes, just in the sense that well,
because it's it's the love part of Love and Basketball,

(01:04:35):
I think it's a pretty like and we've analyzed a
lot of sex scenes in on this podcast, but I
was like, this is like one of the most realistic
and like kind of like responsibly done. I guess like
sex scenes you've ever I've seen in movies, because he
takes out a condom and you see you never see
someone take out especially it's a teenagers, Like that's such

(01:04:57):
an important for teenagers to see and se and like
the fact that we see like a high school student
and history you're like, you should definitely wear protection. Rent,
But I like that scene because it's it's from Monica's perspective,
which I feel like you never really get a scene,
especially like a virginity scene told from the woman's perspective,

(01:05:21):
Like it's very like it's a sexy scene, but it's
also focused on you can tell she's even though she
she's initiated it, but she's nervous and it's like she's
covering up her boobs. That was something that I just
didn't like. My research about the production um was and
it's like you're like two thousand Jesus Christ that the

(01:05:44):
director was getting a lot of pushback against, and that
was their argument for wanting it to be an R
rated movie because I guess that scene was originally even
a little bit longer and a little more focused on
her like anxiety but also her pleasure and like things
we'd never get to see in movies, and like she

(01:06:05):
had to make an argument to still get the PG
thirteen rating that this movie. Also the m p a
A Was like it's rated her and she's like right,
and she was pretty, and she was able to effectively
make the argument that it's like she was like, I
think you're just saying this because it's from a woman's perspective,
and what she did when she took a sex scene
from a movie I've never seen but I've heard is

(01:06:25):
very long called Meet Joe Black brad Pitt. It's a
brad Pitt movie. When did it come? Kay? So, like
while this movie was being probably evaluated by the m
P A a um, there's a scene where I guess
brad Pitt's character loses his virginity. It's an even like
in terms of what they show, it's an even raunchier
scene and it's told from his character's perspective. And so

(01:06:48):
she played those scenes but side by side, and she's like,
why is this movie pg? Thirteen and mine has to
be rated her and they had to give it to her. Gina.
That doesn't surprise me at all, though I know yeah
she doesn't. Yeah, but does initiate the like the kissing.
She does surprise kiss him, but he's receptive to it
whatever yea um, but yeah, she's like, Yeah, here's my

(01:07:10):
naked body and put your digging me. It's a great
sex scene. Every time I see it, I'm like, and
they play like that cover of the Kate Bush song
and you're just like, oh, this scene is the best.
And then like there's Jamie you mentioned this when we
were watching it together. But um, just like kind of
like speaking of sex and sexuality, we see locker scenes

(01:07:32):
of like female athletes in this movie. Compare this movie
to this locker scenes like the locker room scenes and
carry which come from a male director, male cinematographer. It's
like lingering male gaze, like completely objectifying women, those ones
where you're like, oh, this movie is directed by a woman,
clearly because when you see it sometimes the way that

(01:07:53):
like men will direct female locker room scenes, it's just
like women are wearing like victorious secret fra. They're like
grabbing each other in this kind of soft porny kind
of way where it's like, no, they really are just
changing and having conversations, is of it. So I think
that that was like all the big stuff that ahead.

(01:08:14):
I think the only other thing is just like a
comment on and this is like one of those immaturity
things rather than because we were all very problematic when
we were teenagers. Um or at least you were when
you grew up in the nineties. But Monica like slut
shames a lot of like especially the girls who are
going after Quincy, and it's it's like, Okay, she's doing

(01:08:36):
that because she's probably jealous because she's secretly in love
with Quincy. But there's like a lot of the cheerleaders
are written to be very two type like this movie.
I mean, this movie doesn't really have a vested interest
in challenging cheerleader stereotypes. That's what Bringing On is for.
But um, but the cheerleaders in this movie are written
very like they're boy crazy. They're like blah blah blah. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:08:58):
I feel like it's very interesting this movie only really
had two types of women. You either had the really
like um, independent woman character in Monica, but then every
other woman. I mean we don't see really her team,
we don't see the lives of her teammates, but every
other woman that they focused on in the film, it's
pretty much like for the service of a man. Yeah, yeah, PERI.

(01:09:22):
And it's and that's like why it's even more like
I wish Monica could have had sex with someone else,
just because it's like I feel like her character is
almost because she's so independent and hard working and like
focused on her goals that she's her character is slightly
de sexualized a little bit um in a way that
it's I feel like in this movie isn't like a

(01:09:43):
bad offender of it at all, but it's just like
something that's picking up on like the any time there's
a career woman in a movie, she's de sexualized for
being like, you know, whereas you see fucking like Wolf
of Wall Street Wheld, it's like, yeah, this is a
very high power. Maybe not that's a bad example, but
like they can't stop fucking, they're addicted to fucking. I

(01:10:06):
don't know. I mean, I don't think she's entirely do
sexualized because we do see yeah, we see her sex,
but like the fact that she isn't permitted to like
explore outside of her sexual experience with Quincy is worth
noting for sure. Yeah, did you have any other thoughts?
That I could talk about this all day? Um, even

(01:10:28):
with the sort of problematic conversations, I think it's still
a movie that I'll like continuously enjoy And I think
I you know how, like in the fight for change,
sometimes you have to be extreme, and so it leaves
out the reality that there are women who have only

(01:10:50):
ever had eyes for one person, or like even when
I think about my own sexual history, I'm very much
not sexual. If I'm not in love with the with
the guy, you know, And but I also understand, like
even in love and Basketball, I feel like anything that
anybody picks out about it, it's all true and valid.

(01:11:13):
But then I'm like the other side is all true
and valid too, So to me, I think this is
a movie that like holds up pretty well sure that
it you know, it's twenty years old, but it's exploring
a lot of things that I think are ahead of
its time. In an ideal world, I would have liked
to see maybe Quincy not if he was going to

(01:11:37):
be so toxic at the beginning. I think we need
to see a more significant character arc for him where
he's more respectful and treats her better by the end,
or just him being more respectful from the start, but
also you know, taking into account the context of the
time period, and that's the whole like nature versus nurtured

(01:11:58):
conversation again. But um, yeah, if if there's gonna be
because I'm not necessarily drawn to like romance stories that much,
so if there is going to be a romantic storyline
in a movie, I have very specific guidelines that I
wanted to like fall within, and I just want it
to be if it is a hetero relationship, I want

(01:12:20):
the man to be really, really nice and respectful. Then
we're not really getting that as much as I would
like in this movie. Um. But at the same time,
I think it's ahead of its time in many ways,
and the fact that you do have this very strong,
outspoken woman who allows yourself to be angry, who challenges
the status quo, um, who is never like when she's

(01:12:43):
told girls don't play basketball, you can't be in the NBA,
she never listens. She's just like, fuck it, I have
a trajectory and I'm going to go on it. And yeah,
she just like I mean she yeah, Monica pushes back
again so much that it's like these are small gripes.
And it's like, also, i mean, not every strong woman
you meet, it it's just I mean, not everyone's pushing

(01:13:05):
against every single thing. That's like, there's only so much energy.
And and it's also, I mean, it's kind of consistently
communicated that she has to work so much harder to
have the same thing that Quincy has. That like, it
makes sense that she has less time to date. I
just yeah, I just sort of wish that Dad had
gone a little more acknowledged, and it felt just like

(01:13:26):
a little taken for granted, that was just but that
was just like my read of it. I'm very happy though,
with her happily ever After, which for me felt like
the w NBA game, Like, I know, happily ever After
it's supposed to be herwit Quincy. But I just I'm
just so happy that that final clip is her starting
playing the game and then her husband sidelines. I'm like, yeah,

(01:13:51):
this is how it is. She deserves it. Yeah, it's
just nice to see her finally get like what she
has deserved the whole movie. I do. I do find
it a little annoying that she's like, well, I don't
like playing basketball anymore because Quincy, You're not a part
of my life, and because he clearly he didn't feel
that way, right, He's like, I'm I have Tyra Banks.
I'm good. But if she hadn't showed up, he would

(01:14:13):
have just gotten married. But he would have been unhappy.
He would have been He's not saying it because men
are freaking stupid. Where he is sitting there tortured, Yeah, yeah,
I mean that would have been his punishment, is that
he would have had to have a loveless marriage with
Tyra Banks. Um. Yeah, I think the main thing for

(01:14:34):
me is that I wish the romantic storyline would have
gone the love part of Love and Basketball would have
gone a little differently. But everything else about the movie,
for the most part, is pretty top notch. Yeah, and
we're sitting over here in like, you know, it was
two yes, we get it, it was two thousand. It
was also whatever, right, Yeah, but he could have apologized

(01:14:57):
every time there every time there's a scene where you know,
the man should be apologizing and then the woman apologizes
and then they kiss, You're just like, damn it. Like
he barely apologizes for giving her permanent scar on her face.
He like writes this little card that says I'm sorry,
But it's like, no, let's hear you say the words
I'm sorry. Don't get your mom to bake a cake
for her, like say if I was like, I mean,

(01:15:20):
it's like Monica's parents must secretly hate Quincy's parents for
just being like write a sorry note. I'm like, you're
you guys have so much money, Like I wonder if
I wonder what came first like that in the script
or Sinai bian cast because you know Sani scars. Actually
it's real. Yeah, it's yeah, so I wonder if that was.

(01:15:42):
But they wrote that in thing. Yeah, just like how
they write in Harrison Ford's scar the origin stories of
it in the third Indiana Jones movie. Anyway, sorry to
bring it up, just struggle to care about Harrison Ford. Um,
does this movie past the actual test? Yes, yes, yeah,
I think it does. There's a lot of dialogue. Yeah,

(01:16:04):
there's two sentences. There's at least two sentences they're about
with like Monica and her teammates. It passes if you
different coach, her coach or sister. Yeah, there's a lot.
I mean it's it is Monica's story, like and you
get to see Yeah, so she interacts with a lot
of women. She interacts with a lot of women. Yea.

(01:16:25):
As far as nipple scale, okay, so our our nipple
scale zero to five nipples based on its representation of women,
I would give this, I want to say, like a
three point seven five. I think again, I still take
issue with some of the aspects of the romance part

(01:16:45):
of the story. And then like, yeah, the thing where
it's like she says she's allowed to being as a
joke to like as a shock kind of thing for
her mom. Different little things like that. But overall, like
I said, I think it's ahead of its time. I
think the fact that it's an almost entire hardly black
cast is something we hardly ever get to see. And

(01:17:06):
I think it handles a lot of things really well
and and like a really nuanced way where even though
like some characters are toxic and some characters have some
like problematic points of view, there's you know, it's contextualized,
and it's because that's how people are, Like, we're no one,
no one's perfect. We're all sometimes we say stupid ship
and sometimes we do stupid ship constantly. We're total funk

(01:17:29):
ups um. But yeah, I think it's just like a
very nuanced, realistic examination of life and love and basketball. Yeah,
I'll go three point seven and five two. I just
I mean, I agree with everything you said. There's like
a little bit about the romance that you're like, oh,
there's a little more to explore there. I am left
a little bit, like on the rewatch underwhelmed that they

(01:17:52):
end up together at the end, because, like we've sort
of been talking about, Quincy never really had to do
the work to earn her forgiveness. Um, the story kind
of makes it seem like he can do basketball without her,
but she somehow is completely empty without him. Just the president,
it says, is like, you know, sure end up together,

(01:18:14):
but demonstrates some improvement. You know, it's like the fact
that it was like she was going to give up
her career. On top of she forgets, she like apologizes
to him for something she doesn't know him an apology for.
On top of we don't see him do any of
the work before they end up together. It's just like
it's just like a few things too many, especially because

(01:18:36):
he spends so much time not treating her very well
and right, just like negging her and just like not
and then like the whole thing where he tries to
teach her a lesson by basically cheating on her because
she wasn't there for him one time, and we know
that that's not good, but we just don't see that
he's grown, but we don't see that he's grown past

(01:18:58):
that behavior. So in that way, I'm like, I'm willing
to cut this movie slack in some places for the
many many things that does right, But the relationship just
like rings a little hollow to me on the rewatch,
it feels it's just for me. It's too toxic of
a romantic relationship for me to want to root for ultimately.
But another huge thing about this movie is there's a

(01:19:21):
lot of representation behind the camera to which you never
ever ever see even now, Like if you have a
predominantly black cast, oftentimes a lot of people behind the
still a straight white man is still just a list
of white guys and maybe a white lady if you're lucky,
Like it's it's very rare. And and just after doing

(01:19:41):
a little research about Gina Prince Bythewood, she's been like
this incredible advocate for having women behind the scenes, for
having people of color behind the scenes, and she's just
been like a real force for getting people work who
should be working and having influence in the industry. This
movie was also edited by woman was You're Very very Lazy. Um, So,

(01:20:03):
just on top of the fact that it is written
and directed by a black woman's a black woman's story,
it's also there was some bullshit that when the year
this came out, where there was another movie called Girl Fight,
just Karen Kusama's first movie, and this movie like just
because it was about women of color who were athletes.
Everyone was like they're the same movie, which is like, okay,

(01:20:25):
two thousand, Um Girlfriend is really good that we should
cover it sometime because it's actually seen. It's interesting. I
love Karen Kusama in any case. Yeah, there's like there's
a lot of going on that's great in front of
the camera and behind it. Sore seven five from me, Um,
I would say, I'd say I would give it maybe

(01:20:45):
four nipples. I feel like they did. I mean, there
are some things that are problematic, just like you know,
I mean even when we talk about Gabrielle Union, yes character,
it's like she was kind of go get her to
do we like what she was going to get? Maybe not,
but she was, you know, And I feel like I

(01:21:07):
feel like sometimes women, when we tell stories about other women,
sometimes we pass the judgment on quote unquote promiscuity or
sexual liberation. You know that, Like Gabrielle Union's character is
just the opposite version of Monica. But she doesn't want
she wants love more than basketball. Yeah you know, but
and that's the thing, like that character gets shamed a

(01:21:28):
lot exactly. She's just trying to get dick. Yeah, she
doesn't like get the vote. This is like she doesn't
really get the opportunity to like make a case for
herself or just be like or push back or anything. Yeah. Yeah,
like we don't even we don't get the full person.
We don't know who she is outside of this sexual
experience that she's trying to have with Quincy, which is

(01:21:50):
like a little bit unfair. But there's also not enough
time in the movie for it. Where's the sequel? I
don't want to see that, So I'll give it. I'll
give it for nipples. There's a lot of things that
I watch and listen to now that I saw years ago,
and I'm like, how in the hell? Yeah, and loving basketball,

(01:22:12):
I still enjoy it, appreciate it, um, really appreciate certain aspects,
like the sex scenes. You know, I felt like they
were tasteful. I felt like they were from her perspective. Um, yeah,
I'd give it for Yeah. I don't know. I just
feel there's a part of me that doesn't excuse Quincy,

(01:22:33):
but I do feel some sort of sympathy for him,
and I feel like his life would have been miserable
without Monica. Yeah, she makes everything better, And it's like
I just like, hold on to that last scene. I'm
like he's doing some work on the back end to
make up for all those times because and like being
with Monica now he doesn't mess up two women's lives

(01:22:53):
because he would have messed up Tyrabans his life. Really
that is Yeah, that basketball game at the end is
when she plays for his heart is the best thing
that ever happened to tire Banks. Right, she doesn't even
know it yet. Yeah, exactly. Well's name. Thank you so
much for thanks, This was so much fun. Where can
people follow you online? Check out your stuff? Um on

(01:23:16):
social media and every single platform is a AP Johnson
z A I N A B Johnson. My website is
ZAP Johnson. You guys can go to social media on
my website and see where I'm performing, or just be
my friend, UM, my online friend. I'm not one of
those people that thinks social media is my real friends.

(01:23:38):
I Also, I have a podcast. It's called Honesty with Z.
Honesty is spelled h O n E s t e
a UM with Z and it's you can find it
anywhere you get podcasts. Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me,
Thank you for being here. You can follow us all
the normal places mostly Twitter, Instagram. Don't send us a
message on Facebook. We'ven for checks. Sorry. You can sign

(01:24:02):
up for the Patreon Patreon dot com slash by tel
Cast uh five dollars a month, Gate YouTube extra ampasones.
We've emerged on t public dot com slash the bytel
Cast and you know this, this basketball season, I have
some love to love, love and basketball. There's room for
a boat. I can't top that. Thank you, Bye bye

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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Love & Basketball with Zainab Johnson