Matilda with Jess Murwin

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy Zef and best
start changing it with the Bell Cast. Jamie, Caitlin, eat
this chocolate cake right now. I noticed that you stole

(00:22):
my cake from earlier, and now you have to eat
this whole giant chocolate cake. Because I'm mean, honestly, I
would gladly eat the chocolate cake. And in fact, I
wish you thought through this punishment more because it seems
like I win. Yeah. Well, now I'm rethinking it, and

(00:44):
I feel like I should just invite you over to
eat some cake with me and like have a nice
time together. Yeah, should we just like hang out? Yeah,
let's do that. See, this is how the conflict should
have resolved in that scene. That's that's good screen writing. Absolutely. Yeah.
Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,

(01:07):
my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show
in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. It
just is there to initiate a larger conversation we have.
But Jamie, tell me, yeah, what is it? What is

(01:28):
the Bechtel test? I get you? Keep eating your cake.
I'll let you know what it is, Okay, the back
Del disgusting. The Chel test is a media metric created
by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechdels, sometimes called the Bechdel
Wallace test. There's many versions of it. Here's the one
that we use. We require that therapy two characters of

(01:53):
a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other
about something other than a man for two lines of dialog,
and the exchange should be meaningful in some way. Ideally Yeah,
so so no, Hey, can I take your order? Yes?
I will have the cake unless it's important plot cake,

(02:13):
in which case, so you know it's complicated. Every plot
cake it counts. If it's just cake, it doesn't count.
Every exchange is worth a close examination, which is why
we talk about the movies for longer than the movies
run time almost every time. True, ye, should we bring

(02:34):
on our returning guest? Yes, we have a much requested
episode today. We've been getting requests for this movie for years,
and we were simply waiting for the right time, the
right place, the right guest, and here they are and
the time is now our guests. They are a non binary,
mixed race magma artist, curator, and educator. Their work focuses

(02:56):
on reclaiming narrative space and fusing genre with social justice
and holding space collaboration. And you know them from our
episode on Rhymes for Young Ghouls. It's just Merwin. Hello,
Let's get sticky. This movie is very sticky. So many textures,

(03:20):
so many gooey, gooey textures. Um, I forgot that John
Lovett's has like a cameo as the Let's Get Sticky
guy from the TV show they watch. Also, like there's
a magazine at one point that Zinny is holding with
like like Let's get Sticky and John Lovett's on the cover.
So I'm like, is this game show in world like

(03:41):
a big thing, like a big deal, And like, I
bet interesting, you know, interesting choice. I kind of want
to what I would I like, I know that there's
a lot of telegraphing of like television is the root
of all evil in this movie, which you know, I
agree to disagree. But but as I was as that

(04:04):
show was playing, I was like honestly, I would watch
that show. That's I watched The Masked Singer, Like, I
would watch that show for sure. Um, have you heard
about this new reality television competition program that's called The Activist?
Oh my god, Yeah, that is a show I will
not watch and how it's a fucking horrendous disaster piece

(04:27):
of ship. Yeah, but I kind of want to watch
it for similar reasons of being like, oh, this is
a bad idea, but like it, Like I can't not watch.
I cannot watch. I like reality TV always has its
finger on the pulse of late stage capitalism. Uh that
is like the most late stage capitalism. I was like,

(04:49):
oh wow, okay, so we're just doing this that Yeah,
that's that's going to be a bleak one. Who is
like I I forget who was like on the feel
like sure as a judge, Yeah, I wonder if he's
going to be like, Okay, here's I can only contribute
ushbucks to Uh interesting? Oh my goodness. Yeah, you know,

(05:16):
famous famous philanthropist and singing sensation philanthropist. Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know, Like I you know, I saw a post.
I think it was a friend of the show Jamison,
meaning who was like posting about it, and I was
just like this, this is such this is like a
nightmare that I would have, you know, like right, so

(05:40):
you know, it's like I feel the same way about
let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. Yeah, well should we
get sticky by diving into Jess? What is your relationship
with this movie? Um? Oh boy? So you know, Matilda

(06:00):
was like a very treasured film like when I was
growing up. It was one of the ones that we
had on VHS definitely, and that in like the Lindsay
Lohan parent trap. We're on like constant rotation in my
hand like house with like my little sister, and you know,
it was really funny because I hadn't seen it in
a really long time. And then we were talking about

(06:22):
like coming back on the show and I was like
trying to think of movies and I saw that like
Matilda was now on Canadian Netflix. I was like, oh
my god, we should do Matilda. And it was literally
the first time that I'd watched it probably in like
twenty years, and all of a sudden had this like
a piphany moment, was like, oh my god, I think
this movie is why I'm gay, Like like, oh, this

(06:46):
is my route, um because and we'll get I'm sure
we'll talk more about that. But like, rediscovering this film
as an adult in the last you know, month or
so has been a real trip. It's not me really
reevaluate do a lot of things about myself in a
positive way. Like I'm like, I say, I hope in
a good way. Yeah, yeah, you know. And I'm like, oh,

(07:09):
maybe this is where I learned things because like, again,
you know, there is a lot of like messaging in
this film about how television is bad. But I also
feel like, at least for our generation, I was really
raised by TV, like you know, so I'm like, maybe
I was also a bookish kid who didn't really have friends.
I was also a kid who had you know, abusive

(07:30):
parents who didn't understand me. I was like, maybe maybe
this is Matilda is the reason Matilda's like why I
became an educator or like yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
so I so it's very near and dear to my
heart in in a lot of ways. Um yeah, that's
that's sort of my history with it. Was like I
loved as a kid, didn't see it for a real

(07:51):
long time, watched it again and was like, no, I'm
reformulating my personality around this movie and so much as
coming into focus. Indeed, indeed, Jamie, what's your relationship with Matilda?
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have never
seen this movie before, which is so bizarre to me

(08:11):
because it's like I'm in the right age range to
have seen it, Like I think everyone I know is
seen it. I think that it had to do with
my mom didn't like Rolled. I don't know. I feel
like there's over the years on the show, I've just
discovered all of these bizarre rules that my mom imposed
on our media diets, just based on her personal preferences,

(08:32):
where she's like, I don't like Rolled Doll adaptations, they're gross,
and therefore I think it was just she was like,
these movies are too sticky and you can't watch them.
I mean, let's get sticky. I wasn't allowed to watch
Um Charlie and the Chocolate Factory either, so and I
don't even think it was allowed. It's just like it
wasn't around, it wasn't available because my mom thought it

(08:53):
was gross. So I've never seen this movie before, and
oh my gosh, I wish I had seen it because
it would have, um, it would have made me so happy.
I really, I really really loved I mean, there's plenty
to talk about, but there's also so much joy in
this movie, and like you can just tell in the
production of the movie as well. It was just such

(09:17):
a great I watched the movie three times to prepare,
which was not necessary, but I just was enjoying it
so much. And then I was like having a tough
couple of weeks, and I kept coming back to it
because it made me feel good about the world. And
so yeah, and also I feel like we should, I mean,
we at the betele cast have an extreme Maura Wilson

(09:38):
bias because yes, Maura Wilson is a friend of the cast.
So also you know, we're we're always tipping the scales
in Mara's favor. That's true. Check out the episode we
recorded on ELF couple of years ago featuring Mara. So yeah,
this was my first time seeing it and seeing it

(09:59):
and seeing it and it makes me so happy to watch.
So I'm so glad we got to talk about it.
What about you, Kitalin, Yeah, um, my relationship is fairly limited. Actually,
I had seen it as a kid. I remember there
was some VHS that we owned that had remember when,
like VHS has had trailers for other movies that were

(10:20):
coming out around the time. I forget what one it was,
but I've seen the like teaser or whatever for this
movie hundreds of times for whatever VHS that teaser was on.
I don't remember which movie it was, so I've seen
the trailer a million times. But um, I had only
seen this movie probably once or twice as a kid,

(10:43):
so and it was so long ago that I might
as well not have really seen it. But then I
did kind of take it upon myself to watch it
as an adult within the past year because I figured
we'd cover it at some point soon, and I was like, oh,
I should like reacquaint myself with this movie. And I did,

(11:03):
and I was, yeah, like pleasantly surprised by how sweet
and compelling it is, and how there's a lot to
talk about, as per always with every movie, absolutely, and
it's like it's one of those things that like Jamie
you mentioned too, like there's a lot to talk about
just in the film itself, but like also behind the

(11:26):
scenes as well, like and a lot of like contexty
sort of stuff that, like, you know, on the surface,
it's like, oh, this is like a beloved children's film,
but there's actually there's so much there and there was
so much going on to even like bring it into existence,
like have it exist as a film. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
I was really surprised you guys hadn't done it yet.

(11:48):
So I'm super happy that, like we get a chance
to chat about it because it's one of the few
or I don't I don't have like the best. I'd
have to like do a thorough study on this, but
I feel like so many movies, like kids movies, like
family oriented movies from this era and like a little earlier,
like the eighties and nineties, we're focused on little boys. Um,

(12:13):
and it feels like this is one of the few
from that era that features a little girl. So and
they still, I mean they still skew very heavily on
like when they do focus on little girls, it's usually
little white girls. But I'm like the movies that come
to mind from this era, I feel, let me know
if I'm missing anything. But it's like Matilda, Harriet the Spy,

(12:36):
a Little Princess, uh Lindsay Low and parent Trap is
that it is there. Yeah, definitely. I Mean if you
could include all the amazing Mary Kayton Ashley movies, that's
true there, and then there's five hundred movies about girlhood
that's very true. That's very true. Like, but it's it's
really interesting in terms of that because I still feel

(12:58):
like to a certain degree that's still the case. Like
I think it's changing, but like I think about like
the young people in my life, nieces and nephews and
like friends of kids and things like that, and like
if I'm looking to like give them any kind of media,
whether it's a book or a movie or something that
like a lot of times it's really like I don't know,

(13:19):
I feel really hard pressed to find like stories that
are about like little girls that aren't like princesses or
aren't white, or aren't sort of you know, like upper
middle class. And so you know, there's like certain ways
that that that like, you know, we'll get into it,
Like there's certain ways that like I think there's you know,
playing to criticize with Matilda, but like I also think

(13:41):
that there's like certain ways that it sticks out as
like being so unique just out sticky, sticky. Sorry, it's
stickies in your memory. Um, whoever like listens to this
episode and tallies up how many time we say stick
or sticky or make reference to like it's get sticky,
like should have been some kind of prise, a big

(14:03):
bottle of goo. Yeah you're welcome. Yeah. Um, but like yeah,
like I think we've until this sort of like still
sticks out like in the landscape of children's media because
of that, like she's not a princess, and like there's

(14:25):
like some good values that are still sort of like
in the film that like make it really repiled a
still show to young people. Yeah. Yeah, I think for
the most part it holds up in in way more
ways than I was expecting it to. I mean, just
even the core message that there's a little girl who
is smart and the fact that she's smart makes her

(14:49):
more compassionate instead of less. I feel like you see
the opposite message telegraphed a lot and there I just
love her, and and all the messages are of about
like chosen family. Um, you know, all the messages to
around like having like a strong sense of justice. Um,

(15:09):
I think are like really really interesting because like even
before Matilda really gets like a hold of her powers,
you know, she's like telling her dad, you know, like
you're a crook, You're doing the wrong thing. The cops
are like watching that, Like Paul Rubens is outside, is
outside dad, and he's being a camera bro like he's

(15:32):
like but like yeah, so so like you know, there's
like there's things like that that I think are really cool,
you know, to like teach kids. It's like, yeah, if
you feel like something is wrong, it's probably wrong, you know,
like and you have a right to sort of say that.
And with Miss Honey's storyline is like so much of
her story progressing is dependent on her believing Matilda and

(15:56):
taking her seriously, like we'reking for a little while she
doesn't believe Matilda, she's sort of like, okay, pass around
the head, and it's like, you know, sends her on
her way, much like the song sends her on her way. Uh.
But then when she believes Matilda and does realize you know,

(16:16):
that she's right, she does have these powers, and that
ends upsetting Miss Honey free as well. I like the
damn movie. It's nice. Yeah, let's take a quick break
and then come right back to recap it and we're back. Okay,

(16:41):
So here is the story of Matilda. We open on
a newborn baby, as well as voiceover from Danny DeVito.
But this is Danny DeVitto the narrator, not Danny DeVito
the character. They're two different things. But Danny DeVito is
talking about how everyone is born, but some people are

(17:05):
born special. Then we meet Danny DeVito the character a
k a. Harry Wormwood. Not confusing at all, not confusing
at all, but iconic. Like opening show, like, the introduction
to Harry Wormwood is like kids make grimacing at a

(17:27):
bunch of babies, you know, like you do, totally normal
for an adult man just to like be making that
face out a bunch of newborns. Yeah yeah. And then
he sees his daughter and he's like, I guess I
also love like the whole sort of like there are
two genders, pink babies and blue babies. I mean, unfortunately,

(17:51):
something that so many people still subscribe to. There's a store,
there's a store for babies down the street for me
that's literally called the Pink in the Blue. How embarrassing
for them? Yeah, okay, So we meet Harry Wormwood and
his wife, Zinnia played by Ria Pearlman. They take home

(18:15):
their newborn daughter Matilda, who they barely pay attention to
because they're selfish and they're not nice people. And also
Ria Pearlman's outfits are really good. Oh, I mean actually
all like the everyone's outfit in this movie. I feel
like the like the Wormwoodes, even though you know their mean,

(18:35):
mean mean, their outfits are the ones that I want
the most. I don't want the good guy's outfits. No,
like Miss Honey for all of her virtues, essentially just
wear his beige the whole movie. Yeah, I'm just like,
oh the virtuous must wear beige. No, let the virtuous
wear Pearlman's outfit. Yes, like her bingo jacket, her jacket

(18:55):
bingos and rhind stones on the back, And I'm like,
I want that jacket, that jacket. I hope that someone's
taking good care of that jacket. I hope Rea Pearlman
still wears it. I hope she does do. Apparently she
went to like when her and Danny Vido, you know,
we're starting to work in the movie. Apparently she went
to Las Vegas to buy all these clothes and it

(19:16):
was like part of her personal wardrobe that she wore
on set. So I was so I really do hope
that like she does have that jacket and breaks it
out for special occasions because it is so perfect. I
forgot that she and Danny DeVito got divorced, and then
I remembered, and then it made me for around. But
I didn't even know they were married until I was

(19:37):
like reading about this movie they're iconically married. I guess
I had no idea about Danny DeVito's personal life, nor
did I really know who Rea Perlman was. My bad
I stand for one as like as as a comedy,
as a fashion icon. Um. But yeah, apparently they're still

(19:58):
very good friends. They have stayed very close, so that
like makes me happy. That kind of makes up for
the fact that they separated. Yeah, I just want them
to be happy. They seem like such I've not heard.
I hope that I haven't missed something, but I've I've
never heard a bad word about either of them. They
both seem so lovely. No, and that's something maybe like

(20:20):
I don't know what we should like Caitlin maybe finished
the recap, but that's something we should definitely talk about
because I feel like Danny DeVito, shall we say, almost
like unproblematic king Like I feel like, I don't know,
I'm problematic King, short King. The list goes on. Hopefully
this episode age as well in that regard, because as
of for this recording, unproblematic King who seems to be

(20:41):
beloved by a But we've been fooled before. Yes that's true,
that's true. But he just like got banned from Twitter
like two weeks ago for supporting like Nibisco workers being
on strike. So like him, Oh my god, I didn't
know that, I know, right, like Danny, and he was
like openly calling likely being like, yeah, America is pretty racist.

(21:03):
Like before it was like okay to be woke. He
was like, yeah, this is a pretty racist country. So
you know, loke King added to the list. We'll see
if he's a sticky king. Oh we get to the
end of the I'm gonna hazard a guest and say
he is a sticky king. Okay. So Matilda gets a

(21:24):
bit older. She developed a lot of exceptional skills. She's
very independent, she can cook for herself at a very
young age. She's very good at reading by age like four,
and then she starts going to the library every day
and reads tons and tons of books. Then she gets
a little older six and a half and becomes Marl Wilson.

(21:47):
She wants to go to school, but her parents refused
to send her to school, which I'm pretty sure is illegal.
She then starts to retaliate against her dad. She pulls
a lot of hair based pranks. Basically switches some bottles
around so that he accidentally bleaches his hair. Then she
superglues his hat to his head. I didn't realize that

(22:09):
they were all hair based pranks. Yeah, good hair pranks. Yeah,
good hair pranks. But like, I don't think she really
like pranks her mom, Like, I don't think she really
pranks in it's mostly directed at her dad, which that
is maybe something worth discussing later on. But as far
as like the child abuse that Matilda is the survivor of,

(22:32):
it does mostly seem to be at the hand of
her dad, where even though her mom is extremely neglectful
and you know, not a great parent and not nice
or affectionate towards Matilda and like certainly turning her head
the other way, I mean, because she's aware that abuse
is happening. Yes, for sure, she's enabling that situation to
go on, you know. But there were a few there

(22:53):
were several scenes where like she's like, Okay, I'm leaving
the house six year old Matilda to go play bingo
if you want some chicken nuggets there in the microwave.
Like she seems a bit more pleasant at least, so yeah,
I guess Matilda spares her from hair based pranks. Hair

(23:14):
based pranks. Then one night Harry rips up Matilda's library
book and forces her to watch TV, and then the
TV explodes, and it seems like maybe it was just
a coincidence or maybe she made the TV explode with
her mind. We don't know, you think, is it a

(23:38):
carry situation? Wow? This is I didn't even think of that,
But this is kind of like the family friendly comedy
version of carry. Yeah yeah, But like fire Starter, there's
a lot of like abused kids developed tell the Connecticut
stories out there, you know, like it's a popular drop

(24:00):
like if only Carrie had a stronger inherent sense of
justice things, maybe things would have gone a little different,
or at least there was like more sort of like
hamming it up. You know, there's just more hamming it
up and carry pratfalls. You know, we've always said about
Carrie here at the balls not sticky enough. I was

(24:21):
just gonna say the main problem with Carrie not enough stickiness.
I don't know, it gets pretty sticky. It sounds like
it's not not a sticky movie, but just not quite
where we needed to be. I mean, she gets blood
dumped on her. That's that's pretty sticky. That's pretty stick
Could be stickier though, could be? Could be That's my

(24:46):
impression of a Hollywood executive justifying their presence. I don't know.
So we think it's sticky enough, maybe we should reshoot it.
That's me working at Marvel. Sticky enough, I don't know anyways.
That would be one million dollars please, Yeah, I think
I think this ending is really touching, but it would

(25:06):
be better if she could get gacked, you know, just slime.
What if everyone got just climbed at the end of
the Venger's endgame. I'm just spitballing here. Would be one
million dollars. Oh goodness, I might actually go see those movies, right.
I feel like I would be way more engaged in
the lore if they just slimbed characters at moments that

(25:27):
I was supposed to be paying attention, and then I'm like, oh,
I'm back, you know, yeah, I'm in I mean, Spider
Man is is pretty sticky, so Spider Man also sticky.
It works for me, that's why. Maybe that's why we're
drawn to the Spider Man movies over the other ones.
Or is it because of Alfred Molina? Is dot com
something to Alfred Molina could have been Harry Wormwood. He

(25:52):
could have been Harry Wormwood. Dan Indvida doesn't a fantastic job,
but I could also picture Alfred Billion in that role.
At the very least, Alfred should be doing the voice her.
So it's a separate voice, then it's less confusing. Yeah, absolutely, Okay.
So the next day, Agatha trunch Bowl played by Pam Ferris.

(26:12):
She's the principle of Cruncham Hall Elementary School. She buys
a car from Harry Wormwood and she also tells him
about all the disciplinary actions she takes against children at
her school. So, based on this, Harry decides to send
Matilda to this school that looks like a prison for children. Yes, exactly.

(26:34):
So Matilda goes to her first day of school, where
she meets a new friend, Lavender, and where she watches
Principal trunch Bowl terrorize the small children, including flinging a
tiny adorable little girl around by her pigtails and then

(26:54):
tossing her over a fence. The practical effects in this
movie are very impressive and make me miss practical effects.
Although it sounds like the actor who played Miss trunch
Bull got extremely injured. She got injured the climactic scene. Yes,
and I think that little girl not as badly injured

(27:14):
as you might know. She got injured she like cut
her finger on something, so it was not good, but
that was like white. She got flug over it. Apparently
it required stitches, so it wasn't like it wasn't a
huge deal, but it wasn't like a no big deal
kind of thing. Okay, so maybe maybe I'll think on that.

(27:37):
Apparently too, it was like the little girl who actually
did all ended up doing all the stunts because they
had somebody there to do stunts for her. And one
thing I was reading was talking about how she loved
like she was nine and like being in that harness
and getting like flung around was so much fun that
she was like, no, I'll do I'll I'll do my
own stunts. That's a regular tom cruise. Absolutely Okay. So

(28:07):
then Matilda meets her teacher, Miss Honey played by Mbeth David's,
who is basically wearing a burlap sack because she's one
of the good guys and she is very sweet and nice.
Huge juxtaposition against trunch Bowl. Miss Honey sees how brilliant
Matilda is. For example, Matilda can multiply big numbers in

(28:30):
her head and she's like, Wow, this student is brilliant.
She goes to principal trunch Bowl and to Matilda's family
to advocate for her education, but they don't want to
hear about it. Then we get the cake scene where
trunch Bowl makes a student named Bruce bog Trotter eat

(28:52):
an entire chocolate cake while the whole school watches and uh,
we'll talk about that my nightmare night. And I was like, God, yeah,
well we'll We'll just have to unpack that later, Team Brucie,
I know. Then trunch Bowl comes into Matilda's class, terrorizes

(29:14):
the students as usual, and then Matilda seems to use
telekinesis to fling a newt onto her then tries to
demonstrate these telekinetic powers to Miss Honey, but they don't
work when she's put on the spot. Then Miss Honey
invites Matilda over to her house and tells this story

(29:36):
about how her parents died when she was young and
she was raised by her aunt, who is big twist,
trunch bowl. I didn't see that coming, I treatly did it. Really,
that's so interesting, I think because I had seen this
movie so much as a kid, I'm like, oh, the
big reveal, um, But like, that's pretty interesting that you

(29:57):
didn't see it coming, Jamie, We'll have to like talk.
We're about sort of untrench double well not much as foreshadowed.
There is like some voice over where Danny DeVito is like,
Miss Honey Harbor's this dark secret, but she doesn't let
it affect her love of teaching or something like that.
I just thought that she had been a student of

(30:17):
Miss trench Bulls, Like I thought that they was clear
that they knew each other, but I didn't. I didn't
pick up on the family connection. So that was a
very effective whist for me. That makes a lot of
sense because there is that one moment where I think
Miss Honey goes to like trench Bull's office when she's like,
I think Matilda might be happier in an older class,
and like they're talking at that point and like trench

(30:39):
Poles being like creepily familiar calling her like yeah, like
gen and yeah, right, so that was like that was
always what I thought kind of gave it away, but again,
like I can't put myself in the position of like
just seeing it for the first time. Now, so that's
really interesting, Like yeah cool. So yeah, so we get
that reveal, and then we also learn that like trunch

(31:01):
Bull now lives in Miss Honey's childhood home and Miss
Honey lives in this little cottage now, and then they
go to trunch Bull's house when she's not there to
take back Miss Honey's childhood treasures, particularly a doll of
hers Lissie doll Um, which I learned is the first
name of Roll Doll's widow. Let's see is her name. Yeah,

(31:25):
we also have to talk about Roll Doll because he's
got there's there's a ton of shift on there, semitic yea.
His his friends, even the way his friends described him
made me think he was like a man baby edge lord.
Like you read things that people, Yeah, they're like, oh yeah,
Roll was like my best friend for forty years, but

(31:46):
he was terrible. You know, you're like, what like listening
to it, or like reading accounts of people who knew him,
you're just like, Wow, I'm so glad that he wasn't
alive when the Internet existed, like he would have been
at Nightmare. Imagine the would have sent god, Oh my God.
The opposite of Danny Devita's Twitter presence would be World

(32:06):
Doll's Twitter presence. So then Trench Bowl comes back home
when Miss Honey and Matilda are still there, and then
there's this big there's this big game of like cat
and mouse where she's chasing them around, and then Matilda
and Miss Honey finally escape. Matilda starts to then practice

(32:27):
her telekinesis powers, and she gets really good at them,
So one night she goes back to Trench Bull's house
and uses her powers to rescue Miss Honey's doll and
to terrorize trench Bowl. But then trench Bull figures out
that it was Matilda who did this because she finds
her hair ribbon that she left behind. So then the

(32:48):
next day at school, trench Bull tries to punish Matilda,
but she again uses her powers to make Trench both
think that Miss Honey's dead dad's go is haunting her
dead dad, who Trunch bowl. Might have murdered, yes, might
have murdered, almost certainly murdered. Probably did murder. Or it

(33:11):
was an owl? Maybe? Okay, the staircase. We're back, We're back. Wow,
Oh my gosh. Kaylin and I used to talk about
the staircase on Matrian episodes for I forget why we
originally started doing it. But the owl theory not the
first time the owl theory has been explored on this show.

(33:34):
And absolutely, absolutely, you know, miss trunch Ball deserves a
fair trial. We shouldn't use her queerness against her. Yeah,
exactly could have been an owl? Could have been an owl,
would have been okay. So Matilda is terrorizing her, and
then Matilda and the other students run trunch Bull out

(33:56):
of the school, out of the town. She's never seen
or heard from again, and so Miss Honey moves back
into her childhood home, Matilda visits her often, and then
Miss Honey adopts Matilda when her parents announced that they're
moving to Guam, and Matilda's like, well, I don't want
to go. I want to stay here with Miss Honey here.

(34:16):
I already have the adoption papers. All you have to
do is sign them. So her parents are like sounds
good to me. And then they leave and then Matilda
and Miss Honey live happily ever after together as a
loving family, and that is the end of the movie.
Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back
to discuss and we're back. Wo where shall we start?

(34:46):
There are so many places. Well, I kind of wanted
to just I like to look at the film as like,
what's what are his intentions? What is it doing? Since
so many children's movies have some sort of like moral
moral at the end of the story kind of thing.
For me, I think as far as like execution, there's

(35:08):
things to be discussed, but as far as intention, it
seems to me that the message of this movie is
like the celebration of a little girl reading and learning
and getting an education and how important that is, and
how I think that's generally a really positive thing to
have in a children's movie. It's a really great thing

(35:30):
for little girls to see watching this movie, for little
kids of all genders to see. I bet a lot
of children saw themselves in Matilda and like appreciated her
thirst for learning. So that is obviously something that's largely
at play in this movie. There's some I guess baggage

(35:53):
that comes with that, where there's like weird like kind
of classism and elitisms stuff tied to this, which we
can get into. But as far as like what the
movie I think is trying to do, I appreciated the efforts.
And I almost wish that I had grown up more
with this movie and did watch it more as a kid,

(36:16):
because I think I would have benefited from the message of, like,
it's really important for little girls to learn and have
a thirst for knowledge and a curiosity about the world.
I totally agree. I feel like Matilda and Harriet the
Spy kind of go together in my head of like
movies that have this inherent message that encouraged young kids

(36:40):
in the nineties, uh, particularly girls, to trust their instincts
to be curious too, and and that there is a
purpose and meaning to like seeking knowledge and not taking
you know, adults at their word, and and just a lot.
I I totally agree that this movie seems to come

(37:02):
from a very good place. And in the process, I
mean like we're going to inevitably talk about uses, tropes
and stereotyping to get to the good place it's trying
to get to. I feel we have. It's kind of
a rare movie in that regard where I don't feel

(37:23):
completely like as confident in most children's media that it
has such a strong core message, which makes it like,
uh interesting and frustrating that it uses the tropes that
it does to accomplish a good message, because it ends up,
you know, kind of weighing it down in this interesting way.

(37:43):
But I still like, I can't in good faith like
write this movie off entirely, and don't think I ever could,
because it's so uh it is coming from this this
very beautiful, encouraging place that I think, you know, Jesse,
you are alluding to this earlier like that there's still
not a out of movies that have core messages like
this that are that are this popular in this memorable

(38:06):
although apparently not in that I didn't realize this movie
like flopped at the box office. I always assumed it
was a huge hit, but it I guess it's like
it was in its VHS era that it like became
huge because I viewed this as like a ridiculously successful movie,
which I guess it wasn't. Yeah, that's what was really surprising. Um,
you know, I think that it was much more successful

(38:26):
on a critical level perhaps and like at a box
office level. Um, but but just you know, coming into it,
what you're both are saying like uh, and I think
Harriet the Spy is and also a really good example
of this. It's also it's not just like you don't
like trust your instincts and things like that, but it's
also like you are the author, like you you have
control in your world, you have autonomy, Like I think

(38:48):
they're there. I mean, I don't think that even for
stories that you know, are geared towards like older women
or older like people of like that aren't just male,
like I don't think there are a lot of stories
that sort of give that same sort of message of autonomy,
like both in Harry the Spy in and Matilda. You know,

(39:10):
it's sort of like these young girls who are in
this position that you know, things are going on that
affect them that they don't have control over, but we
still see them taking steps and taking measures and like
being active. And that's a little bit the thing of
like when Harry yells at Matilda sort of like when
a person is bad, you know, instead of saying like

(39:32):
when a parent or when an adult is bad, and
like in giving Matilda that key of sort of saying
when a person is bad, he allows her to have
that autonomy of sort of saying like, oh, okay, well
I can then make choices. I don't have to be
just passive and have things happen to me in this story,
you know, like so often, you know, you guys talk
about it on the show all the time, you know.

(39:52):
We we sort of get these protagonists that like things
happened to them, and then another thing happens to them,
and then another thing happens to them, but they're not
really choosing at any point in time. And yet here
we have this story of this young girl. You know,
we see her from literally like being born up into
the age of like six and a half, um, you know,
and being very very active. And I think so much

(40:16):
of that too, you know, in terms of like how
this adaptation was done, has to really do with the
fact that there were like a lot of women, a
lot of parents, a lot of people involved. That like
we're invested in young women. That sounds like a weird
way of putting it, but like both Danny DeVito and
Real Pearlman, as well as Robin Spee Cord and Nicholas Kazan,

(40:38):
who were the screen the couple who wrote the screenplay,
Zoe Kazane's parents. I didn't realize. Yeah, both of both
of those like both of those couples came to the
book through their daughters. And I think that that like
shows in the way that the film it did get
adapted and the choices that were made, you know, the

(40:58):
things that were changed. There were a lot of male
characters that are in the book that don't appear in
the movie. Like the majority of the cast is female.
You know. It is really like this story that is
like very much focused on empowering Matilda, you know, within
her world. And I think that that is because you know,
like I said, you know, they're coming to this story

(41:19):
the book came out I think at the end of
the eighties eight nine, you know, so they're coming to
as parents themselves, being like, oh, you know, my daughters
can see themselves in this book, you know, how do
we recreate that? And Robin see Court is, as you
probably with No. Two, was like super involved in A
Little Women just before this as an adaptation. So it's

(41:40):
like it's also you know a lot of like the
feminist stuff that happened in The Little Women, you know,
like that's also a little bit of her influence in there,
you know, Like so I think that that's like kind
of why the story ends up getting crafted that way.
Mar Wilson's mom also was like a really big driving
force and getting this movie made. Um because when you're

(42:02):
a kid actor, of course, you know, it's like you
have your agent and then you know your parents. Hopefully
you're making decisions that are in your best interest. And
Mara was starting to become like had been in a
couple of things and was starting to like become famous
or more famous as a child performer. And they were

(42:23):
being sent tons and tons of scripts all the time,
you know, for these like cute little girl parts. Um.
But Susie Wilson, her mom had Red Matilda with all
of her kids, was a huge proponent of like reading
the book, even like at like Mara's school, like in
the library to kids and stuff like that. Um. So

(42:45):
when this script came up, you know, it was like
mar Wilson I think described as or like her mom
like left on it was like this one, you know,
and was like very present on set and the films
dedicated to her because Unfortunately she passed away shortly after
it was in prosproduction, so like she had just like

(43:06):
such a huge effect, um, and yet she's not necessarily
one of the credited names that we think of in
in terms of this film. But yeah, you know, and
I think that like because like, you know, as a
working artist, like I think a lot about the intention
that goes into things when we're making things, right, Like
filmmaking is is such a team sport, and I think

(43:28):
so often, you know, we're sort of like especially since
sort of like this era of like at war directors
and like it's all about sort of like the person
who's like got that director credit and who's at the
head of it. But so often I think that there's
like all these other influences that are coming into that
story that are important to acknowledge, because we don't make

(43:50):
things in a vacuum, right, So it's it's just as
much about the who's introducing the idea to who are
you talking about the idea with? You know, who are
you who's helping you with like the design of the film,
Who's you know, doing all these sort of things. Yeah,
but yeah, I think I think that's sort of like
Lad a pretty good groundwork for the for how the

(44:10):
film turns out. And by all the accounts I read
about the production, it seemed like everyone had a ball.
Danny DeVito was an angel, good and responsible director, right, Yeah,
and the kids had fun and the adult actors had fun,

(44:33):
and yeah that it was like a very pleasant experience
for everyone involved as far as I could tell. Yeah,
even like Jamie you mentioned pamp Ferris, who played Agatha
trench Bowl, even though she had gotten injured and doing
a couple of the stunts and things like that, Like
she I was watching an interview which she was talking

(44:55):
about it, and she was like, you know, I was
like trying to stay away from the kids, and I
was trying to like not have fun because it was
like I was supposed to be there. It's like the
trench Bowl in the superintimidating presence. And she was like
after two or three days, like she's like, the kids
would come up to me and put their like little
hands in mind and I couldn't help it, like you know,
would just be like totally run over and totally sweet,
and like pam Feris is such a a far cry

(45:18):
away from like the Trench Bowl it's really it's really
quite funny having seen her in other work and being like,
oh my god, I can't believe that's the same person.
I know. I forgot that she was on Marge as
well in the Harry Potter series because I feel like
she we only encounter her as someone who like she's
very typecast as villainous, and then yeah, we might have

(45:42):
watched the same the same interview because I was just like,
she's so sweet, Like what a her She was in
Called the Midwife too, She plays us none in that
and Called the Midwife is you know whatever, like it's
about sisters, religious sisters who are midwives in like London

(46:04):
around the Second World War, I think, and like, you know,
spoiler alert, I guess for Called the Midwife fans, but
like when her character dies on Call the Midwife, like
there's people who've written entire blogs about like how crush
they were about that, Like you know she is, like
she is this like British character actor who's just like
so beloved in so many ways. But I feel like

(46:24):
you're in North America, were like trunch Ball, Like where
do you think she knows Molina another British character actor.
I want to say. I want to say, yes, yes.
I wonder if they have any like overlap. Maybe they
met at the theater. Who knows, could be very possible
because Pam Fares has done a lot of theater. It's true.

(46:45):
I love the idea of Pam Farris, like trying to
go method on set and then like that lasting for
a couple of days and then she was just like
so one over by all the sweet kids and she's like, well,
never mind, going method is actually an incredible waste of time.
Usually yeah, yeah, exactly, Like she's not leaving dead rats

(47:06):
for like the crew to find or anything. She's just like, yeah,
like they're these kids are smart, they can they can act,
but that's why they're here. Um, there was a little okay,
So one of the first things that jumped out to me,
which is like partially based on personal experience, it's like
the concept of whatever, the concept of genius is fake,

(47:30):
and that I always think is such an interesting I
almost wish that it had been phrase a little different
because I think that it's phrased that way in service
of saying Matilda is special. But what makes her special
isn't the fact that she's a genius what makes her
special is that she is compassionate and uses uses her
natural abilities to help other people and to pursue justice.

(47:53):
I feel like that, but I don't know that. I
feel like I just have mensa PTSD, and so I'm
just like, no, not that word genius with children. It's
that's a dark road to go down. Absolutely. And Also
that joke that Harry Wormwood makes about Moby Dick, I
was like, that was the there are a few moments
where were like, oh my gosh, that is such a

(48:15):
nineties children's movie moment where he like kind of implied
like he thinks that Moby Dick is about sex or
something like what iconic bizarre children's joke from the nineties. No. Absolutely,
Uh well, I mean we can talk about it. I
mean I think it's interesting to sort of look at,

(48:38):
you know, bringing up the idea of genius, bringing up
sort of like the idea of exceptionalism, and how like
that comes into like the class conversation that we could
have in Matilda. Because I also, as much as I
love and that's not even like too strong a word,
as much as I love like Harry and Zenia Wormwood, like,
despite their horrible nous are so like spot on the

(49:03):
way that they're characterized is like, you know, we get
that sort of first line at the very beginning where
it's like they live in a nice neighborhood, they have
very nice things. They're not very nice people. You know,
we're set up to sort of understand them as being
villainous based on their values, and when we take a
look at what those values are, you know, they love money,

(49:26):
they love consumerism, they love TV, sticky stuff, they love
sticky stuff, they like, they eat, they eat micro We
have dinners in front of the TV every night, like
that's their family time, you know. And I feel like
characterizing this like also the fact that like Harry Warmwood
is like I used car salesman who's like buying and

(49:48):
selling like stolen cars. Um. You know, I feel like
if they were poor, then they'd be considered white trash,
you know. And I think that like I'm I'm not
entirely sure what we're supposed to take away from that,
you know, because and also that characterization of white trash
is like garbage, and and you know, I hope that
I don't offend anybody but using that term, but like

(50:11):
I know what you mean, but like it's sort of
like this idea that even though they're you know, they
have achieved a certain level of like status and wealth,
they're lacking middle class of values which would make them
part of like the in group of their peers, like
you know, no other homes even in that neighborhood. Like

(50:32):
when they're doing like the shot of like the car
pulling and look like their home. You know, they've got
like lawn ornaments and it's like very retro looking. You know.
So even as the villains though they're they're placed a
sort of like very outside of their peer group to say,
like or like when they go to the fancy restaurant too,

(50:53):
you know, and there's all sorts of buffoonery that kind
of goes along, you know, and zinnias. They're going in
like take your hat off, Like we're in a nice place,
take your hat off. You know. There's this desire to
be acceptable, but they perpetually miss the mark and talking
about sort of like what middle class values mean in
like this sort of sense, it's like hard working, self disciplined,

(51:14):
thrift nous like honesty, white, able bodied Protestant, like respectable conformism, patriotism. Yeah,
exactly patriotism. You know, they're fleeing to Guam, but the
Guam is a U S territory. The FBI can get
you there, like but like the yeah, like I feel
like they don't know that, and like the reason that

(51:34):
this matters, I think in the film comes back to
sort of this idea of like why, you know, why
are we calling Mattila a genius? Like why are we
putting that out there? Like is because there's like certain
like social markers, certain cues that I think we're setting
up from the very beginning about like who you should
like and why you should like them, and you shouldn't

(51:55):
like the warm words because they chafe against middle class
values before we even know that they are terrible people,
right you know what I mean? Yeah, there's I was
a little I feel like there's some dissonance with the
way the Wormwoods are characterized because on one hand, you
know that there villainous because they're selfish and they neglect

(52:19):
and abuse their daughter, and Harry is very unethical in
the way that he conducts his business and and of
like part of his villainy there is that he is
not like taking from the rich, he's taking from people
who have less money than it. He's exploiting exactly. And
so there's all these things that, like us watching this

(52:41):
movie are like, yes, clear signals, clear markers that he's
a villain. But then there's this other component that kind
of comes into this classism elitist thing, and it's like
kind of education based where the movie subscribes to this
thing where people who are highly educated and who have
a job that requires a lot of education equals good. Um.

(53:03):
This is most clearly demonstrated with miss Honey with her
kind of job and position and her just sort of
valuing getting in education, getting in higher education. She even
has this little monologue where she's like, you know, if
you were to get sick, the doctor you go to
would have gone to college. If you get sued for
selling a faulty car, the lawyer you hire would have

(53:25):
gone to college. A k A like quote unquote important
people with quote unquote important jobs go to college versus
people who don't go to college and who have a
job that does not require college education equals bad according
to the movie, such as Matilda's parents, Like again, her
dad is like a car salesman who says he didn't

(53:48):
go to college. Her mother plays bingo all day. She
says she didn't go to college. Um, there's the lunch
lady who is presented in such a way, and she
has such a small part in the movie, but she's
presented in such a way that like the movie wants
you to think she's grotesque because she's working class person,
working class older woman. Like, yeah, and this movie has

(54:11):
an issue with older women. That will get to write
the exception here is miss trunch Bull, who would have
to be highly educated to be a school principle. But
in theory, I don't understand how she takes over cruncham Hall,
Like I think that that's like specifically vague, like, but

(54:32):
because she the way she conducts her professional life, she
doesn't seem to care about education. She does not even
though she's a principal of the school. She's more concerned
about abusing children and terrorizing children then she is about
children having an education. So the movie subscribed to this
thing where it's like if you see the value in education,

(54:53):
which like kind of in theory or just like inherently
like obviously education is good in learning things is good,
but this idea that like you have to go to
college to be worth anything is classist and elitist and
and and it would be somewhat not completely at all,
but it would be a somewhat of a different discussion

(55:15):
if the concept of higher education weren't inherently tied to money, right,
and tied to class and and there are all these
I mean well documented, we can't possibly cover them all here,
but issues with access to higher education and who it's
available to versus who it isn't And so yeah, I
kind of like it's so cooked into the story that

(55:38):
I can't I couldn't really think of a way to
fully remove it. By I thought it was like, it's
such an important choice in terms of the movie working
where I feel like a lot of the classism and
elitism could have been removed from me if that idea
was just sort of simplified to like in curiosity about
the world around totally. But because they take get a

(56:00):
step further and say that if you do not pursue
higher education or if you're not highly educated, you must
be an incurious villain that like like evil, right, abusive, etcetera. Absolutely,
which it would have satisfied me if the Wormwood parents
were just incurious people. But it isn't it. It's tied

(56:21):
to class and it's tied to I think it's going
back to what you were saying just about how they're
kind of characterized as visually as like quote unquote white trash.
It seems like their intellectual in curiosity is tied to class,
it's tied to their appearance, and it's saying people like this,
you know, people like this aren't worth as much as
people like you know, miss Honey. And I think the

(56:44):
visual language of the film can't be you know, overlooked
because it is it is a children's film, you know,
so there is like a lot of simplification of the
narrative that ends up being transmitted on a visual level,
because you know, it's sometimes it's easier to communicate those ideas,
is of like you know, this is you know good
and this is bad. That's also you know, like a

(57:05):
in Kately you can probably speak to this from like
a screenwriting level. You know, you have to have tension
in script, you have to have like the white hat
and the black hat. You know. Like but I think
the way that people are stylized in this film, you know,
and even just to talk about fatness a little bit
which which I'm sure we'll get to, but yeah, it's
relying on really really tired tropes, you know, like and
we made the joke sort of about like, you know,

(57:27):
where his pages the whole movie she's wearing essentially like
a potato sack um. You know. In the book, there's
a lot more context given around that, about the fact
that like Ms. Trench Puple is like garnishing her wages
and that she's actually quite poor and that's why she's
living in a farmer's shed. You know. The cottage that
we see in the film is quite lovely, like I

(57:47):
would love to live in that little cottage, full on
like Instagram cottage, like yeah, you know, it's gorgeous. Um.
But like in the book, she's living in a farmer's
shed for a dollar a week or like a hound
a week, because of course she works at trench Ball School,
so trench Ball controls how much money she gets paid,

(58:07):
and so she's you know, so there's like there is
like a you know, if her parents was very plain
in terms of like the book, it was, you know,
it was kind of explained by that, you know, by
the fact that she didn't have access to fund where
we don't get that context in the film. So Miss
Honey is just presented as like this paradigm of like goodness,
and it's like she's well educated, she comes from an

(58:30):
affluent background. You know, she's soft spoken, she's feminine, she's
you know, and and and you know, this isn't not
not to dismiss that character, because I think Miss Honey,
as we talked about a little bit earlier, you know,
plays this really important role you know, in her liberation
is part of Matilda's story as well. Um, and also

(58:51):
the way that she relates her own experiences with trauma
and abuse to Matilda. I think it is very critical
to helping Matilda. But yeah, like we're sort of you
know that moment where um, she's sitting in the Warmon's
living room and she's giving them that that speech about education,
and they you know, like I think Zenia has like
curlers in and like Harry's like he's trying to redye

(59:13):
his hair after it's been bleached and they're watching a
fight on t you know what. It was iconic, but
you know, like there's this very stark contrast. Again, she's
like a thing that's out of place right in the
Wormwood setting the same way that like, Matilda is out
of place in that setting, but it's I think that

(59:34):
it's made less stark because of of who Misshoney is. Yeah,
and there's a line of dialogue from Matilda's mom that
I feel like could effectively transition us into the conversation
about appearance and fatness and femininity and and that kind
of stuff, where her mom says, a girl does not

(59:57):
get anywhere by acting intelligent. You cho those books, she's
talking to, Miss Honey, You chose books. I chose looks.
So let's talk about the way people look and like.
And as Zennia is saying that though we're supposed to
be laughing because we can see how Zenia looks, you know,
and like. And there's a couple of moments like that

(01:00:17):
in the film specifically about looks like. There's another line
trunch Bull says at one point, you know, like I
can take a joke as well as the next fat
person from where we're supposed to be, where we're we're
supposed to be laughing at the character and not with
them specifically, right, Yeah, I mean, Caitlin, you were alluding
to this a couple of minutes ago, but how or

(01:00:37):
maybe maybe as you just how appearance is so emphasized
in children's media because of the audience and how like
it these very deliberate choices really make a big difference
in just forming children's views of the world. And so
you can see and really all of roll dolls work.

(01:01:01):
And just an aside, their Roldal not just a deeply
unpleasant person, but a deeply anti Semitic person, very pro vaccines,
So I guess that's good, but certainly very like but
also like hugely misogynistic as well, like uh, incredibly racist.
Like if we're going to dive into roldlf for for

(01:01:24):
a moment, like, yeah, I think we should because it's like,
I mean, his views are subtly accessible here, I think absolutely,
and and like and I think that it's important context
to like have this information in terms of even looking
at like other of his works that have been adapted,
you know, because he's looked at us being this really
beloved children's author, you know, like he's on all these

(01:01:46):
lists of like you know, most beloved UK children's authors
of all time, you know, like most beloved this and
that and the other thing. And yet yeah, he's a
highly unpleasant person, incredibly anti semitic, incredibly misogynist. He also
wrote pornographic books for adults, whoa I did not know this? Yeah,
did you even know? That's like I feel like I

(01:02:07):
remember I learned that when I was a teenager, and
I was like wow, yeah, him and Shel Silverstein were
like writing making mint, like writing like books for kids,
and but also writing a lot of like pornographic books
for atuts. Interesting. Yeah, and there's nothing with writing pornography,
like right now, you know, like there's nothing writing wrong
with writing erotica. It's a good way of expressing your

(01:02:30):
creativity and horny nous. But um, I write it via
text message to people all the time. You know what
text messages are kind of like the new one pages
or like single sheets sexting what is a sext but
a logline for a film it is, It's like an

(01:02:51):
elevator pitch. It's like, hey, these out yeah, you know,
and and and like you know, people used to write
love letters. Sex thing is just like today's love letter,
you know. But like yeah, just just the fact that
like even people who have read his like erotica are like, yeah,

(01:03:13):
like it's this is very misogynistic. I mean, that's a
good that's a good indicator because there's a lot of
you know, and his I mean, his racism like is
present in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory repeatedly, like the
characters of the Upa Lumpas are deeply rooted in his
own racism. And there's I think that other examples in

(01:03:35):
his work were it's so as we're talking about this,
it reminds me of the conversation that was taking place
around Dr seuss work last year as well, where it's
like there are all of these men, like men who
wrote children's books and are deeply influential and there and
I mean and also not men, because we can bring J. K.

(01:03:57):
Rowling into that conversation as well, where you know, on
a closer look, not only where their politics got awful
and their prejudices god awful, it is also present in
their work in ways that it are like hard to
kind of grapple with. Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's

(01:04:18):
been quite as bit a conversation around role Dal. I
don't know why that is. Yeah, maybe because he's dead,
I don't know. I mean, and it's very interesting to
look at because I think that like oftentimes, when you know,
when we talked to about like yeah, like like rolled
as a really excellent example, we haven't really he hasn't
really had like his reckoning sort of, I guess in
terms of like social media. But I think it's because

(01:04:40):
a lot of people don't really know, I guess about
his anti semitism and like misogyny and racism or like,
you know, it always comes back to this thing, you
know when I talk about this a lot, because oftentimes
people will be like, as like an indigoud person, people
will be like, oh, yeah, well it was okay that
we like treated Indians like we did at such and

(01:05:03):
such a time, because you know, that was just the culture.
And unfortunately that's always patently wrong. You know, like when
there is discrimination and prejudice and bigotry, you know that
is happening at any point in time. It's not so
much that that was the culture as the powers that
be within the culture, like us as individuals, were willing

(01:05:23):
to permit it because it wasn't going to lose as
social capital. You know, we knew, we knew when like
Song of the South came out in the forties that
it was incredibly racist film, you know, but we weren't
we as in like white and white passing people weren't
willing to get up in arms enough about it until

(01:05:45):
it was like Disney plus, like it was like, oh,
and you know, we're going to keep this one in
the Disney vault. And then people were like, oh, yeah,
that was a really racist filment. Was like, but we
knew that at the time, you know, we we know,
we know that kind of stuff at time, and we
and we still sort of like let it go anyway,
you know. And I think that we have to sort
of understand it much more in a human level as

(01:06:07):
opposed to sort of being like, oh, well that was
just okay at the time. It's like, no, we made
it okay, you know, and the same thing was rolled out.
I feel like there are people, you know, as much
as like what he said. It's horrendous and I don't
want to repeat something anti semitic marks that he made,
you know, here, I think there were a lot of
people who probably agreed with him, or at least like

(01:06:28):
didn't disagree strongly, you know, or we're just complicit. I mean, yeah,
intolerance has been tolerated for much of I mean, people
called out D W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation in
nineteen fifteen for being racist when it was coming out. Yeah,
but like not enough people took him to task, and

(01:06:49):
then he just kept making movies. And yeah, so I
think that I mean, what what what you just said
that's so beautifully of inherently tying it to social capital
does seem to be the big thing where it's like, yeah,
people are not like people didn't just wake up to
the injustices of the world five or six years ago,

(01:07:11):
which I feel like is sometimes how it's characterized. Obviously
that's not true. But now, I mean, at least at
present in some cases, still not all cases, there is
a risk of losing social capital if you are intolerant publicly. Yeah. Yeah,
so people who perhaps in another setting would have been

(01:07:32):
apathetic or ambiguous, you know, do feel perhaps a little
bit more pushed to at least not comment or or
or or to do so like in a in a
very like in a way that's not going to lose
some social capital. And like I'm not trying to like
point any fingers with that, Like I said, like, I
think that it's important that we understand it on a

(01:07:53):
human level and that also means like for ourselves. Um,
you know, even though I grew up knowing that like
my grandmother was Magma, I was also taught like some
pretty horrendous shitty stuff about Native people through like the
education system. And I definitely have like funked up in

(01:08:15):
racist when racism like is applicable like to other groups
and other situations that I am not like directly a
part of, like, but like you take responsibility for that
and then you try and do the best that you can.
But this podcast is not about me. Let's get sticky.
Let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. The last thing I

(01:08:37):
wanted to say about Role Doll and then let's get
the funk out of Rolled doll Land because it is
so depressing. There the last thing, and I think this
ties to social capital and capital capital is I didn't
This news went right over my head. But in December
of Roll Dolls Family only, slash Estate issued an apology

(01:09:03):
for his anti Semitic comments. I think it's very interesting
that they only chose to like thirty years after it happened.
First of all, waited thirty years, which many I mean,
it sounds like there were many Jewish groups that said, like, okay, cool,
but why the thirty years And what I think that

(01:09:24):
that is inherently tied to is the conversation that was
taking a place around Dr Seuss around that same time.
There is kind of I mean, and while I want
to believe, and I have no reason to not believe
that Roll Dolls descendants do not hold the anti Semitic
feelings that their grandfather did, it doesn't feel it comes
off as very disingenuous because it feels like damage control

(01:09:46):
because the Roll Doll estate received reportedly potentially as much
as one billion dollars from Netflix to license his catalog
to adapt over the next you know, decade or or
whatever it is. So it's you know, it's it's like, okay,
that is Situations like that are so are so frustrating

(01:10:09):
because of course, an acknowledgement of the inherent harm that
those comments made towards the Jewish community like that absolutely
is worth saying. But it doesn't feel like it's being
done for the right reasons at all. It sounds like
it's to preserve the Estates capital and I feel like
we're seeing a lot of that right now, and I
don't It's it's like I don't know what alternative to suggest,

(01:10:35):
Like I'm not unhappy that the estate is acknowledging it,
but it just doesn't. And also I was like, but
what about the misogyny and the racism not that. No, no,
we're not gonna we're not gonna talk about that, Jamie,
like one issue at a time. Well, we'll circle back
until we get threatened for something else. And no, and

(01:10:55):
and and you're you're totally right, you know what, You're
totally right. And it's sort of like, actually, like looking
at what this film is about and about having a
sense of justice, and how about like standing up for
what you believe in and sending up for people you
care about on the one hand, and then on the
other hand, being a total and absolute corporate chill like

(01:11:19):
and I mean, you know, allegedly allegedly allegedly, I guess,
like I don't have any kind of association with adult family.
I'm sure they're all lovely, you know, we're not trying
to tire them all with the same cancel of the dolls. No, no,
but yeah, but it's it's I think that like I
would encourage people to be very to be very skeptical

(01:11:41):
when these kind of moves happen because of what's going
on behind it, you know, and like they're getting reportedly
a billion dollars from Netflix, but like Roldal also already
came from a very affluent family. They have had this
like very successful publishing arm you know, of his estate
as well. It's also like a billion dollars going to

(01:12:02):
people who are not or either you know, like like
that's the thing too with like these these literary adaptations,
like like something to keep in mind as well, is that, like, oh, yeah,
I know, it's nice that like the books that we
love as children are being adapted and things like that.
But like if it's just like more money going into
line the pockets of people who are already wealthy, why

(01:12:22):
not go to an independent bookstore? Like why not take
a chance on like a first time author, you know,
of color? Why? Right? Why why invest so much money
in adapting books by a misogynist, racist, anti semi and
instead invest that like not and this isn't the point,

(01:12:42):
but like that have also been at that have already
been already been adapted to death. Are you, like, do
you really think you're going to make a better Matilda
than this? You probably not like that. So sorry, sorry
to derail the conversation around um visual representations. I just
think that, yeah, that Royal Doll's background is important to

(01:13:03):
prejudices are important to understand and leading with that discussion, right,
so let's talk about yeah, because his I mean, his misogyny.
Although I mean, to be fair, I don't think I
read this book. I read a few other Royal Dolls
books as a kid, but I don't think I did
read Matilda. So I'm not sure how much of this
is cannon to the book and adapted from that, or

(01:13:27):
if it's more cinematic like adaptation choices. But what we
see here similar to the like higher education people equals good,
people who have not gone to college equals bad. We
have a and this is worth unpacking because I'm gonna
kind of probably oversimplify this here just to start with,

(01:13:47):
but there's this idea of like women and like female
presenting characters with more feminine features slash like who more
closely adhere to Western beauty standard thin women. I mean,
then like thinness is virtue equals nice and good, which
again is embodied in the Miss Honey character predominantly, and

(01:14:11):
then women with more masculine features slash women who don't
adhere to Western beauty standards equals mean evil, bad, embodied
by principal trench Bowl. Um. I think there's also a
conversation to be had about how that character is possibly
another example of a queer coded villain. Yeah yeah, so yeah, yeah,

(01:14:40):
I mean, I know, butches that in the right light,
you're like full trunch bowl. I would even argue that
the name trunch Bowl is like homophobic, like you know what,
like come on, like, how are some slack god? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, no,
so trunch trunch Bull is definitely a queer coded villain.

(01:15:01):
I mean, whatever with Gator, But like honestly, you see
the trench Ball and you're like, Okay, you know, I
know what's going on. And what's so sad about that
in so many ways is the fact that, like one,
this idea of creating queer villains is not a new idea,
you know, like this is like Disney playbook, you know,

(01:15:22):
this is something that we've been doing in popular media
for a really really long time. Um. And I think
that like in the unfortunate case of Miss trench Ball,
and again, like I feel like I'm in this episode
I'm coming across like I sympathize with the villains a
lot in this piece, and I really like, maybe that's
like some of my own issues and empathy or whatever,
but like, I really feel bad in some ways for

(01:15:43):
the way that like miss trench Balls represented because I
think that she's mothered not only in the masculinity of
her body, so to say things like they intentionally darkened
Pam Ferris is like mustache as an example, you know,
when they put her in this very boxy outfit and
they give her like a false end of her nose
to make her nose more prominent, and they did all

(01:16:05):
these things to make to make her appear more masculine
on purpose, and like that, plus her size sort of
like takes her out of this realm of femininity and
like her in her kind of interest too, as far
as like Olympic shot pudding and like right, which is
like extremely fucking cool. Yeah yeah, And if you look

(01:16:25):
at the athletes that perform in those those uh that
perform that perform it's not a performance. If you look
at the athletes that compete in those categories, they're built
like a brickshit house because they have to be like
if you're gonna like pick up a super heavy weight
and like hurl it across, you're not going to be
built like a gymnast is going to be, you know,

(01:16:46):
very petite and like you don't have a ballet ballerina's body.
But that's like inherent to the sport. It's like so
exactly right, you know. And and you know, one thing
that I don't I don't feel like we talked about
enough in terms of like body pot sittivity and things
like that is the fact that like different bodies are
good at different things, you know. And and miss French
Dooble is like a former athlete, Like it makes sense

(01:17:09):
that she looks the way that she looks, and yet
that's used to demonize her in such a poignant sort
of way. And like part of that is the way
that like fatness is represented in this film. And to
talk a little bit about that as like, because I
think Trenchable is like not only the like antithesis of
Misshani in terms of like you know, good and evil,

(01:17:31):
it's like even just like their characteristics, you know, principle
is large and expansive and loud and mascula and all
these sort of different things and she hates children, you know,
but I think specifically because of her fatness, Like it's
worth noting the way that in our culture fatness tends
to be portrayed and also tends to like affect gender.

(01:17:54):
So what I mean by that, And you know, looking
specifically at this film, fatness tends to either for men,
tends to feminize them. You know, we've seen that in
like expressions like oh you've gotten man boobs or whatever,
So a fat man is looked at as being more vulnerable,
more feminine, we will, you know, and we see that
a little bit in the way that like it's not

(01:18:17):
I think a coincidence that the kid that trench Bill
picks on is a fat kid. You know. That's like
a whole other conversation, you know. Whereas like I think
for women, and like, even though I am non binary,
I was raised or I was like assigned female at birth,
there's a lot of ways in which like being fat

(01:18:39):
and being assigned female at birth or presumed female um
or being female um ends up removing you a little
bit from femininity, or at least it used to. Like
to give an example, there was this ad campaign that
was really very controversial, A couple of years ago in
the States and encamp and that was supposed to be

(01:19:01):
targeting like childhood obesity, and it was like, it's really
hard to be a little girl when you aren't And
it was a picture of a of a girl who
was fat, and like that was like the line that
was like over her fat body was like, it's hard
to be a little girl when you're not and when
you're not little, when you're not little, that was the
the implication, and for a long time that was true. Like,

(01:19:25):
for example, when I was growing up, like we didn't
shop at the mall or anything like we you know,
we relied on like thrift stores and and like hand
me dns and stuff because we were like lower middle class.
And I used to like wear my dad's like some
of my dad's old clothes and stuff to school because
anything that was like handed down that was sort of

(01:19:46):
girly or anything that we like my mom got that
was like sort of like what we're girly like styles
and sighs, like her sighs so small for somebody that
was like it would have never fit my body. So automatically,
you know, you're getting made fun of at school because
like one you're fat, but also like you're wearing your
dad's clothes to school because like literally there weren't clothes

(01:20:07):
to fit you. And I think that like there are
some more like size inclusive brands and things like that.
And that's why, like when we're talking about fat liberation,
like clothing does play a part in that, because you
have to wear clothes in society. Um, Unfortunately, we live
in a society, yeah exactly, and people are going to
judge a twelve year old wearing like their middle aged dads,

(01:20:31):
like business casual clothes a lot harsher, you know than
they are like another twelve year old that's like fitting
in with like what people are wearing. So uh, you know,
and it used to be the same, I mean, and
I still think it is largely the same. Unfortunately for
folks you know, who are my size and larger. You know,
there's still is very few choices that we have when

(01:20:52):
it comes to clothing and and things like that. Um,
and so there is this like if you can't find
gender affirming clothing, then like already your gender identity and
how you affirm that is like sort of skewed, you know,
in a way. And I think with trunch ball as well,

(01:21:12):
Like she's not dainty, she's not like she doesn't have
these traditionally feminine qualities, a lot of which are related
to size. You know, when we talk about fat phobia,
you know, it's important to recognize like the gendered elements
of that and as well as like the racial elements
of that. A lot of fat phobia is anchored in racism.
You know, it's anchored in this idea that like white

(01:21:35):
virginal like you know, what is it, like Anglo Saxon
Protestant like bodies were supposed to look a certain way,
and that became the ideal that people in society, women
specifically were expected to adhere to. Jamie. You Um. A
recent episode of ac cast dove into that as far

(01:21:56):
as like diet culture and beauty standards and body size standards.
Really well, so if anyone hasn't listened to that already,
check that out. But um, yeah, it's grounded in a
very colonialist Western I mean, we talked about the Western
beauty standard all the time, and and it's it's very
much rooted in colonialism and racism, and and it's a

(01:22:18):
it's a zero sum game for everybody because it's rooted,
and like everyone's bodies are being controlled. And so it's
like even if you're you know, if you do look
like miss honey, let's say that is still the result
of the demands and pressures of the society that you're
living in. So it's yeah. The the book that I

(01:22:41):
would recommend to everybody listening is Fearing the Black Body
by Sabrina Strings, which is just such an incredible comprehensive
look at how fat people are othered and also how specifically, uh,
non white fat people are extremely mothered um and have
then yeah, and and how it's just it's yet another

(01:23:03):
systemic issue that can be traced right back to colonialism absolutely,
and and like and I second Jamie's recommendation on the
books such a fantastic book and and like I feel
like it's a book that I will continue to go
back to and like reference, uh, because yeah, you know,
there's there's a lot of stuff that we can all learn.

(01:23:24):
What I was going to say in addition to that, too,
is is, like you said, it's a zero sum game,
everybody loses. And fatness and like queerness, the way that
those two things interact as well in terms of villainy,
like I said, is to just sort of render this
body monstrous. You know, Like there are distinct moments in
the film where trench Bull is like portrayed as being

(01:23:46):
almost like animalistic. Like I think about like when she's
like sniffing like the ribbon that she finds um you know,
it's like yeah, or when she's like chasing Matilda and
Massani through the house, which is still such like even now,
it's still like such a terrifying scene to me. She's
like sniffing the end, she's like she's like breathing heavily

(01:24:08):
and like visibly perspiring, you know, And it's like this
very animal sort of thing. And the way that her
the camera treats her body at many points, and I
feel like we're we're constantly seeing her from like up angles.
We're seeing like her fishy lenses, like like unflattering lenses.
She's shot very very differently than anyone else in the movie,

(01:24:31):
even the other villains, because it's like you don't really
see those applied to to Matilda's parents, even though I
think that they are also not through fatness, but they're
they're also physically mothered. Yeah, especially I think like especially
I think Harry, I think it's sort of like the
taller woman shorter man sort of thing that's like that's

(01:24:52):
that played with like and like sort of stereotypes around
like masculinity. I think also come into play a lot
with Harry, And I think that that's maybe y mental
to plays the pranks that she does on her dad
is because he is so invested in this like masculine
idea of his appearance. You know, he says to his
son at one point, like, you know, I'm not selling
a car, I'm selling me, you know, like, and so

(01:25:15):
I think that, like that's another sort of line in
the film where I feel like we're supposed to be
laughing at the character because he's like, you know, he's
like the short little guy who's like, you know, we
have this idea in our minds that like short men
are like somehow more vengeful then just like regular sized men,
which is wrong. I mean, it's incorrect, but like I

(01:25:35):
think that it's definitely like something that exists culturally. So
I think that there's like a lot of different like
ways that people's bodies are used in this film. And
I also think, like I think about like the fat
characters that I had growing up as a kid. It
was like Miss trench Bull, uh that one Chicken from
that uh like from Chicken Run. Oh no, not even

(01:25:56):
from Chicken Run from from the like Disney Robin Hood
where they're like foxes, I know exactly who you're doing.
And she's like made Marian's and she's Scottish and she's
like I think she's called Mrs Cluck, Madam Cluck, Lady Cluck.
I don't know, Mrs Chicken. I don't know. Anyway, she

(01:26:17):
was fat. Also, there is ursula. You know, we're not
getting like there's not like you know, it's not like
we get like a broad great spectrum, you know. Um
so yeah, so when you do see like this like
particularly unflattering portrayal of like a fat character, you know,
like that's what I mean. Like I think my empathy

(01:26:37):
really like kicks in and it's like, poor miss trench Bull,
you're so awful. Also, I don't know, like one thing.
This is sort of a side sort of note, but
like trunch Bull says at one point that like she's
like she hates children, and she's like I'm glad I
would never was one. And that just makes me think
that like maybe trunch Bill had like a really traumatic

(01:26:58):
upbringing and she didn't go to therapy, and like that's
why she behaves the way that she does, you know,
and we don't get any insight into how That's something
I didn't even that didn't even click for me, is
like we get an extreme insight into how Matilda and
Miss Honey were raised, but we get no insight into
the people were being told are the villains. We have
no insight into why they behaved the way they behave

(01:27:22):
with the parents or with Miss trunch Ball. No, and
and and like not to excuse like villainous behavior, not
to excuse like people who are abusive, absolutely not, and
not to make excuses for them. But I would argue
that you know, here in we're pretty well aware of
the fact that like, sometimes people who are abusive are violent.

(01:27:43):
You know, sometimes people who are not great parents are
the way that they are because of the fact that
you know, they didn't have great role models and experienced
abuse or experienced trauma themselves. Like hurt people. Hurt people
because thing happens in a vacuum. And it would have
been interesting to explore, yeah, why these villainous characters are

(01:28:08):
the way they are, but the movie doesn't have any
interest in exploring that, and especially when it queer codes them,
like that's why. That's what it really bothers me. Is
sort of like the fact that like, you know, here
we have a queer coded villain who's like violent and
abusive and we have no context for why. So then

(01:28:29):
it's just like, oh, queer women specifically are just violent
and abusive, and that end the story, which is like
not not nothing, you know, like it's it's not a
helpful narrative to perpetuate. It did make me laugh when
Miss trunch Bull comes into the class, I think the
second time she like oversees Miss Honny's class and the

(01:28:54):
little girl who she had formerly thrown around by her
pigtails was like, yeah, we learned how to bell difficulty
via a song that Miss Honey taught us Mrs D,
Mrs I, Mrs f f I, Mrs C, Mrs you,
Mrs L t Y. And then trench Bull is like,
why are all these women married? There? I think that,
but but like why are why are all these women married? Question?

(01:29:19):
And that's like another reason so here, okay, just as
like a quick summary, I keep referring to trensh Bull
as a queer coded character. Here are the reasons. That
is one of the reasons in the book, although I
don't think it's made as explicit in the movie. She
hates long hair. That's why she throws the girl around
by her pink tails, is because she hates long hair. Um.
Like I said, they darkened Pam Ferris's mustache specifically for

(01:29:42):
like the trench Bull, and of course we associate facial
hair with like certain types of gender expression. You know.
It's the fact that there are no love interests in
this movie, and we didn't bring that up in terms
of like something that's kind of crazy about kids films,
but there's always love interest in kids films, but this
film has no love interests. Yeah, so I think I

(01:30:02):
love it, right, It's so good. I'm so happy that
Matilda didn't get like a boy that she was sweet on.
That made me so happy or that Honestly, I thought
that Miss Honey, that was the most remarkable avoidance of
that trope, because I the second I saw Miss Honey,
I was like, oh my god, they're going to marry
her off to some weirdo, like to Paul Rubens. Or something.

(01:30:28):
She's gonna marry a cop Lana del Ray style. This
is a nightmare. But Miss Honey, I thought it was
like because I feel like and I'm trying to think
of who I'm thinking of here, but because I feel
like we've seen so many Miss Honey characters in children's
media who always are like that. That is how the

(01:30:49):
traditionally Western beauty standards feminine woman. That's how her story ends.
It's like but where it's like, there's so much of
Miss Honey's story as its present it in the movie
is almost like a Cinderella e story, except that it
ends with her asserting herself, confronting her past, and adopting

(01:31:11):
a child to raise as a single parent, which is like,
that is awesome. That like I was blown away by
that creative choice and like, you know, and and that
idea of sort of like even after like even in
the like after the you know, when we're getting into
like you know, after Trunch believes, you know, and Miss
Honey's living her life and until it's coming to his

(01:31:32):
like there's no man at that point, even that's brought
into the picture, it's like no, no, no, she decided
to be a single parent. She was like, no, I
got daddy bucks. I'm good, Like, don't even worry about
like ushbucks. Yeah, yeah, because her dad's And I think
if they had married her off, we wouldn't have had

(01:31:54):
those moments, Jamie. I really think that there would have
been like, instead of her standing up for herself in
a certain herself, I really think it would have been
the man being like, well, gosh, darn it, you can't
let your aunt treat you like that, you know, Jennifer,
how could you let yourself be treated this way for
so long? And you're like, get out of here there. Yeah.

(01:32:14):
But then but then it's it's it's such a double
edged thing because as it feels so pointed when that
same choice is applied to miss trunch Bull, because it's
done so without context and we don't have any context
about who she is exactly right, And because she's also
like the older spinster and I had to use that word,
but like she's like the older unmarried woman. I feel

(01:32:38):
like there's also always a connotation like that, like and
and again, I hope this is changing, but I feel
like for a really long time, it's like, oh, the
older unmarried woman. You know, it's like, well, you know,
you guys might not be able to see, but I'm
raising people on the podcast can't see at all, but
I'm like doing like the vaguely eyebrows sort of thing.
You know. Yeah, there would have definitely been like a

(01:33:04):
folksy old saying that we had for that on the
East Coast, like, oh, you know, she's a little lightner
Loofer's meaningful glance like, yeah, I heard she's more of
a cat person, if you know what I mean, except
that we do see trunch Bull kick a cat across

(01:33:26):
the yard. Yeah, she's actually not much of a cat.
She's not much of a cat person. That that scene
is still swept saying to me that in the new scene,
the cruelty to animals, yeah, really bad. I want to
go back to the way fatness is treated in the
movie as it relates to Bruce bog Trotter, she played

(01:33:47):
by Jimmy carrs who's a doctor now, who's a doctor? Now?
Oh my gosh, I have some quotes to share. Okay.
I found this oral history that is specific to the
cake eating scene in the movie. There's like a long
oral history from Newsweek. No kidding, I didn't know that
yes by Zach Schonfeld. Will link it in the description,

(01:34:10):
but it's a long oral history about one scene in
the movie. Anyway, So a bunch of people are interviewed.
I have a couple disturbing quotes from Danny DeVito, who's, uh,
maybe this makes him perhaps not the Wilke came we
thought he was well because he says, um, in an

(01:34:31):
earlier quote, he's just talking about the child actor Jimmy saying, um, oh,
you know, he was so cool. He's an orthopedic doctor.
Now I don't know exactly if he's a surgeon or
just a bone guy. So there's that one. The second
quote is him saying, it's really funny because like Danny DeVito,

(01:34:51):
because like the reason I knew that kid is now
a doctor was because there's another quote another thing that
I read that Danny DeVito was like, yeah, kid, he's
some kind of some kind of doctor. Now, maybe an osteopath.
I don't know. I thought you could, yeah, you could
hear him saying that in his voice, like I don't know,
it's some kind of bone guy. I don't know, but

(01:35:13):
I love that Danny DeVito like those he's some kind
of bone guy. He's like an uncle who's trying to
remember some kind of like cousin's boyfriend's roommate or something,
you know, like, yeah, I don't need to know. I don't.
I don't need Danny DeVito to know more about medicine
than that that's wine. That's good. Well, listen to this
second quote. There's a lot to unpack here. So Danny

(01:35:35):
DeVito says about the actor who eats the cake in
the movie quote, Jimmy is looking amazing. He's grown into
a fine young man. He was a little chubb chub
when I knew him. Now he's a strapping young gentleman
and a doctor not doctor doctor is how it's quoted.

(01:35:56):
Danny DeVito can't not talk like a Newsies character. She's
a doctor. And then the final part of this is
of his quote is oh I need bone doctors. Man,
I'm the original guy in need of bone doctors unquote. Okay,
and I'm back and I'm back. That second quote was

(01:36:18):
not great, but the third one I'm back. So how
is Danny de Vito a native auntie like that happened?
I don't know. God, that's I bring up this quote
because of the way he's talking about Jimmy carrs he

(01:36:39):
was a kid. Yes, So what happens in the movie
is Principal trunch Bowl calls an assembly so that the
whole school can watch her fat shame a child because
she suspects him of eating a piece of her chocolate cake. Um,
which is it's never terribly clear if he did or

(01:37:01):
if he didn't. He says like it's better than my mom's.
But he's also but like, I don't know if that's
just like something a kid would say, right right, So
we're not even sure if he is like guilty of
this non crime, but for this nom nom crime whoa
sticky sticky alert. So she calls him on stage and

(01:37:28):
it's like, here, eat this piece of cake, and then
he does kind of reluctantly, and then she like summons
the cook of the school, who brings out the rest
of this enormous cake, and then trunch both forces Bruce
bog Trotter to eat the whole thing in front of
the school. So the fact that it's like a fat

(01:37:51):
kid who stole the cake to begin with, who is
made a spectacle of basically who is publicly shamed for
are perpet humiliated. Yeah, and eating thing, and the whole
thing being framed as being disgusting. Like I have to
skip over this scene because it is the way in which,

(01:38:12):
like the costuming they put like all this like smeared
chocolate all over him in his face, and the angles
that they're shooting this kid with, and just the kind
of grotesqueness of it all is basically using cinematic language
communicating to the audience saying basically like when fat people eat,

(01:38:33):
it's gross and it's shameful, and this is how you
should feel when you watch that, and it's just so
horrendously fatphobic and toxic. And and they do the same
thing with trench Bill. There's a there's a point when
trench Bills eating a piece of chocolate cake at her house.
I think, when yeah, tell, then there are there where
they do like a sort of similar sort of call back.
And it's a lot of mouth sounds for no reason

(01:38:55):
and a very tight angle for no reason. You know.
But this scene is like this scene in particular has
been written about by a lot of like fat academics
and artists, like because this is our trauma, this is
our collective trauma um for folks who can't see me
on the podcast. I am a fat person. I'm very

(01:39:17):
happy calling myself that. That is like being called a
little chub. Chub by Danny DeVito is now my dream,
um and putting it on my back list. But like
you know, uh, this is like this is part of
our collective trauma because like, UM, we have this association first,
first and foremost, you know, we have this idea within

(01:39:38):
our culture that you are ultimately the person who determines
what your body looks like, which is not true. UM.
Our bodies are they estimate probably you know, the way
that we look is determined by our genetics. So what
does your family look like? What did your ancestors look like? UM?

(01:40:02):
Is like variable sort of like health outcomes, but a
lot of that is also like tied to class, tied
to ability, you know, like do you have chronic illness?
Do you suffer from like depression? Things like that? Can
you afford? What was that article about that woman who
spends like so many thousands of dollars every month on

(01:40:23):
like smoothie like health food smoothies and like that. Oh absolutely,
you know, and like for indigenous people as well, like
you know, when if you want to talk about like
spending thousands of dollars at the grocery store, like there
is an overwhelming occupation. Um. And you'll see this a
lot on reserves here at least in Canada, Like, um,

(01:40:44):
there's a lot of government messaging about how indigenous folks like, oh,
you need to make healthier eating choices and you need
to do this, and you do that. But um, like
I've been in flying communities in northern Quebec. Here we're
buying like it's to buy like like a two liter
of mal it's like fifteen bucks, you know, to buy

(01:41:04):
like a thing of like asparagus, it's like twelve bucks.
You know, if you're trying to feed your family, you know,
you have to make certain choices about like the food
that you can even have access to, like fresh produce,
like getting fresh produced up north can be challenging at times,
you know. And it's not even just up north, Like

(01:41:26):
I'm from Eastern Canada. The last time I lived in
Eastern Canada, I lived in our a city, you know,
like a city with public transport and universities and like
like guess like a real city, like a real you know,
and like there was still like the winter before I
moved to Montreal, caulie flower to get ahead of cauliflower.

(01:41:48):
It was like eight bucks, you know, like and that's
like in that's you know, that isn't in a remote area.
That's just like being on the East Coast, the price
of living is very, very expensive, and so like I
hate the term food desert because again, like all of
this is very intentional. You know, people can grow cauliflower
in a lot of places, like there could be you know,

(01:42:10):
different projects and things like that, but especially like a
lot of indigenous people you know, would love to connect
with like getting traditional food, um, but a lot of
that is made so difficult and so expensive that you know,
at the end of the day, it's sort of like
will make healthier choices, It's like, well I can't afford to.
I am making the best choices that I can afford

(01:42:31):
to to feed my family, you know, and factory farming
is awful. And there's a lot of arguments around like
you know, eating specific diets and different you know, to
do different things, you know, lower cholesterol or less meat
intake because of the effect on they plan it. But
for so many, so many people, that decision is like

(01:42:53):
again like having enough food right right and having access
big time, and that is like one of the many
things that this movie does that feels it almost feels
like it's interacting with the point we were talking about
earlier where it was like the kind of you see
where they're going with it, but it's inherently like misrepresenting

(01:43:15):
issues around education and oversimplifying it of And I feel
like the way that this movie treats food, like you
were describing just as like this is an individual decision
as opposed to all of these factors. And then on
top of that, who gives a ship? It's none of business, yeah,

(01:43:36):
you know, and like and even just like the portraying
it as like, oh, you know, he can eat all
of this cake because he's a fat kid. Like that
was like always like the jump that I sort of
we're making my brain of like and it's like, no,
like the human stomach, no matter what size your body is,
is about the same, Like it's about you know, it's
gonna be your little like your little poach. You know,

(01:43:59):
it's not it's not that big cannot fit an entire
chocolate cake. That's like I don't know, twenty inches in diameter.
That thing was enormous, like tall like and very sticky. Um.
I would also like again sort of with like trunch Bowl,
you know, and broadcasting things via people's names, Miss Fanny

(01:44:20):
broadcasting things via people's names, Wormwood, which is a poison
broadcasting things via people's names. I feel like bog Trotter
is also like a fat name, like a lack of
like a better term for it, like and and it's
it's it's sort of this like it's it's because of
sort of like the like oh sounds that you end
up getting. I don't know, it's like the roundness of

(01:44:41):
an oh. I don't know, bog Trotter. You wouldn't call
a thin character bob Trotter. Yeah, I see what you're saying.
It almost sounds like because I wish I had written
them down, because trench Bowl comes up with several just
iconic insults that she calls the children. The one I remember,
she calls them something something piss worms something, it's like um,

(01:45:04):
but bog Trotter almost sounds like one of the insults
that she would hurl at a child and then like right,
But contrast, Miss Honey is called miss Honey because she's
sweet and pleasant, it's like Swan being your last name
and you being like beautiful. Right, It's like it's like that, yeah,

(01:45:25):
that extreme, Like I understand why Roldal makes those choices
because of whatever. He's telegraphing things in simple terms, because
he's a children's author, but he's telegraphing things that are
broad stereotypes, so he's using his tools for evil. I
don't like it. And then when we talk about how

(01:45:47):
Bruce's story plays out, because that scene takes place, and
then it kind of ends as this like Spartacuss style ending, Um,
let's let's unpack that. I'm curious of what you both
thought of how that seems kind of results, right, because

(01:46:08):
instead of any and again, this is a room full
of children who you know are perhaps not the most
equipped to advocate further peers against a tyrannical principle. But
it's also a movie, and like whatever, you can suspend
your disbelief for things. But rather than anyone being like, no, Bruce, stop,

(01:46:29):
you don't have to do this thing that's clearly like
making you ill and causing you pain and is humiliating
you and all this stuff, Matilda's like you can do it.
Keep eating which you're like, oh, she's trying. She's trying,
but like, yeah, like she's egging him on in support

(01:46:50):
and almost like encouraging him to finish the cake. Might
read on it as she's encouraging him to finish the
cake out of spite for Miss trunch Ball, right, So
it's like there's no like malice in her intent, but
as far as like the implications of what she's cheering
him on for is not very productive, we'll say no.

(01:47:13):
And it's it's I mean, I'm sure we've all eaten
things out of spite for somebody, you know, at least
once a day, you know, like, yeah, it is really weird.
And I never, like as a fat kid and as
a fat adult, I never look at that scene and
at the end like feel like whoa, you know, yeah

(01:47:37):
we won, right right, it was like everyone loses. Yeah.
So it's it's like really, it's really really tricky and
it's nice. I'm so on the one hand, I am
so happy for Matilda that she stands up and like
supports one of her peers and like and some of

(01:47:58):
the scenes I love most of the movie is like um,
the scenes between like the friends when you start to
realize that like her in her Tensia and Lavender and
Bruce like hang out, you know, And I love that,
and I love that Matilda would feel like she's standing
out for for somebody. But yeah, it's I do want
to touch on Lavender really quick because she is one

(01:48:21):
of the few non white characters in the entire movie,
played by Kiami Duval. She is I think the only
bipop character who has any lines of dialogue. There are
others in background shots who were like kids, who were

(01:48:43):
like extras in the classroom, but she's I think the
only one who has lines of dialogue. Um. Even so,
though she has very little narrative significance, to the point
where if you noticed, she's barely mentioned in the recap
because you could essentially write her out of the movie
and the story would not really change at all. True,

(01:49:05):
I love that she's there. She's the cutest child I've
ever seen, and I just wanted more for her because
she is present but not in a meaningful way, and
that's extremely noticeable in a movie that is predominantly white,
which is as we talked about at Like at the

(01:49:26):
beginning of the show, mainstream children's movies in like American cinema,
especially the ones that have like stood the test of
time and that we like still watch and remember and
like talk about, are so so so white. It's just
another unfortunate example of there being very few people of

(01:49:47):
color in the movie, and the one that has a
name and any lines of dialogue still doesn't contribute to
this story, isn't allowed to contribute to the story in
any meaningful way. Absolutely it us feel like symbolic diversity
over anything, you know, like which feels very of its time.
But also you know, how how much of that has

(01:50:09):
actually been resolved in modern media? Exactly No, And it's
it's so unfortunate because, like I said, you know, some
of my favorite moments in the film are moments between
Lavender and Matilda, Like I really love for example, when
um that last sort of rampage that trench wile goes
on and she, like Matilda then like saves Lavender by

(01:50:30):
like lifting her up and putting around the pipe and
then bringing her down safely, you know. And there's another
moment to where like when the newt and she knows
that Lavender put the new in the water, and Lavender
is like, well, thank you for not telling him Matilda's
like best friends don't tell you know, those moments are
really really nice, And I always been watching this film,

(01:50:50):
as much as I enjoy it, always wish that there
were more of those kind of moments, because, like, I
think it's also just like nice, nice friendships, you know,
just and there's room for it in the movie, it
feels like it's and I feel like it's almost like
Lavender's character is put aside in favor of focusing on
their relationship between Matilda and Miss Honey. But I feel

(01:51:13):
like it would have been a powerful choice to have
Matilda like strongly connect and learn about her connection with
a with a kid her own age, too, especially because
it's set up in the movie that like, she doesn't
have friends like people her age that she talks to
because like again, her really awful parents are depriving her

(01:51:34):
of opportunities to connect with children her own age. So yeah,
I almost would have rather this story unfold in such
a way that sure, Miss Honey can be a character,
she can be a positive influence in Matilda's life, but
I kind of rather see a story about Matilda meeting
like a best friend and developing that friendship and the

(01:51:55):
hi jinks that they get into together or even just
like including Lavender in the Miss Honey story, like where
it seems like she is also has you know, she's
also being abused at this school by Miss trench Bull.
We have to assume there's a larger context for that.
How did she end up at this school? What? Like
what is her what is her family? Like like it

(01:52:16):
there's it? Would it would help the story? No, absolutely,
and sort of like yeah, like with her home life,
like like that's always the big question I have is
like part of trench Bulls like over the top punishments,
is like the idea that like parents would never believe children,
you know, so then it's like, oh, okay, well then

(01:52:36):
like what's is Lavender also in a situation where like
she needs to be rescued like you know, and and
you know, you start to sort of wonder about this
kind of things. I think it could also be interesting
for Matilda to like meet a family that's like functional
and like healthy like healthy relationship dynamics and sort of
like be able to sort of realize like which I

(01:52:59):
think she does. Like I think she's very well aware
of the fact that, like her home life is not ideal,
but like it might sort of like take that contrast
of like being like, oh, you know, like I could
maybe ask for something better for myself, Jamie, I know
that you have a heart out soon. The last thing
I wanted to bring up very quickly is just shout
out to this movie for not being copaganda, because the

(01:53:23):
FBI agents in this movie are like treated as kind
of being, you know, bumbling fools. And the funniest part
of the movie to me is when so like these
FBI agents are tailing Mr Wormwood because he is like
buying and selling stolen car parts and stuff. Why the
FBI is involved not sure, but the unclear. Matilda keeps

(01:53:48):
telling her parents like, oh, these guys that are outside
watching you all the time are obviously cops, and her
mom's like, no, their speedboat salesman. Um. And then at
one point Matilda comes home and the two agents, one
of which is Paul Rubens, are in the house and
like her mom is kind of flirting with them, and
then Matilda takes one look at them and just like

(01:54:09):
dead pan is like they're cops and it's the funniest
part of the movie. And I just like laugh off
off um and then Danny DeVito comes in and calls
them surfer dudes and male strippers, which is like, but again,
that's sort of like confronting. He's like, he's like picture
of his own masculinity. Like, right, you know, he's anti surfer,

(01:54:36):
anti surfer dudes and male strippers, surfer dude masculinity. We
gotta talk about it. Um, we've already covered point break,
Um that surfer dude cops do. Yeah, but yeah, this
movie is not pro cop which is saying a lot
for a movie from the nineties. I want to believe
that's the inner Danny DeVito to I do I do to,

(01:55:00):
And I also love that, Like you know, in my
head canon of like what happens to Matilda later is
she flourishes as a BiCon and is like, you know,
totally at protests with a sign that's like a cab
you know, Wilson rules. I mean, because that's who she
is too, Like, that's what she's doing in real life,

(01:55:22):
exactly similar, I imagine, I would hope a similar trajectory.
It's like Mario Wilson, but if she still had magical powers, yeah, exactly,
which she might. You know, Yeah, we have to ask
her um, does this movie pass the Bechdel tests? For sure?

(01:55:44):
Lots lots of lots between a lot of different combinations
of characters. As far as our nipple scale zero to
five nipples based on how the movie fares. Looking at
it through an intersectional feminist lens, this one is tricky
has while it's doing some good things as far as

(01:56:04):
it's kind of like themes and more like the moral
statement the movie is making and and how so many
people just took positive messaging away from the movie. Uh,
it is kind of overshadowed by the fact that a
lot of the ways in which that messaging gets across

(01:56:25):
is relying on harmful, fat phobic, classist, elitist, homophobic tropes.
With that in mind, I feel like I to me,
it is going to have to be one of those
like split down the middle movies, where like it's doing
good stuff but by way of bad stuff. So yeah,

(01:56:48):
I think I can only give it two and a
half nipples. I do. We didn't touch on this really,
but I do love the kind of theme or like
the interpretation of like the Chosen Family narrative, and like
that thing is really sweet. I love just again, how
like valuing a little girl learning and um, you know,

(01:57:10):
just like having a thirst for knowledge is something that
I think is important to see, especially when the movie
is directed at children. But yeah, it's a lot of
like of the time, nineties era problematic stuff. So two
and a half nipples, I will give one tomorrow Wilson,

(01:57:31):
one to Pam Ferris, and one to the poor cat
who is kicked by trunch bowl. Looks like fly, looks
like fly hit it hit and does have eight nipples there.
I brought cat facts back a very special appearances. I'll

(01:57:55):
meet you at at two and a half. I think
that there's this movie. I mean it's like it's it's
tough because it's like we've talked about this whole episode.
There is a lot of heart and I think good
intent at the core of this movie. And and that
really does make a ton of difference. However, I mean,

(01:58:16):
starting from the person who wrote the story, it wouldn't
with whom there's a trend of baggage attached. And um,
you know, his prejudice is kind of being difficult to
remove it impossible in some ways. To remove from his
own material is basically impossible. And so we see these

(01:58:37):
homophobic tendencies that you know are also inherent to the nineties,
like the homophobia, the fat phobia, the symbolic inclusion of
people of color. But the characters could be caught out
easily and don't have stories of their own. And so
while I love Matilda and I do love the message

(01:59:01):
at the core of her and Miss Honey's relationship and
story of chosen family of adults listening to and taking
children seriously, which is just always a message I respond
really strongly to, and and everyone's life improving as a
result of listening to children and taking them seriously. There's
so much good. And then the tools used to arrive

(01:59:24):
at that very good conclusion are just very loaded and
very harmful in many ways. So two and a half.
I will give one to Matilda, I will give one
to the Bengo Jacket, and I will give the last
half to Lavender. Um, I'm right there with you, with

(01:59:49):
both of you. As much as I love this film,
and as much as I sort of joked at the
beginning that like I, I I feel like it is very
informed of like the person that I have become, Like
a lot of this stuff that I take like as
good from the film is stuff that like I'm bringing
to it now and not like stuff that's necessarily in there.

(02:00:09):
And we do that a lot as as you know.
I think it is like queer and gender diverse people.
You know, for a really long time, stories weren't made
about us. And so you know when we get like
a queer villain like trench Ball, and we get like
a queer story like this, because I still think Matilda
like Zinny is basically in drag the whole time. Um,

(02:00:31):
there are like no male love interests, Like this is
a very queer story. And but like that wasn't put there,
I don't think intentionally. I think that is like interpretation
coming like after the fact. Um. And yeah, the chosen
family side of things is wonderful. And I would say
to anybody who might be out there and feeling like

(02:00:55):
they are not appreciated by their family or they are
not being loved and nurtured way that they need to
be that like, sometimes the people you are related to
you can't do that for you, and you can find
other people who who will love you and appreciate you.
Like those people are out there, and you should never
hesitate to seek out your chosen family because yeah, you know,

(02:01:18):
like you deserve that, you deserve to be left and nurtured. Um,
so two and a half nipples I will give. Oh man,
now we just want nipples on the Bingo jacket somewhere.
So I feel like, you know what I feel like.
I will give a nipple to Maura Wilson because not

(02:01:39):
only is she incredible in this movie. Not only is
she incredible now, but she was also like in the
process of losing her mom during this whole thing, as
a you know, and as a kid. I can't imagine
what kind of like stress that is so huge. One
nipple for Mara. Um, I would give my other nipple
to pan Fist as well. She's amazing and she did

(02:02:01):
such a fantastic job in this film just being such
a hammy camp villa in I hope there's somebody out
there who does trunch bowl drag. I'm going to look
it up. I bet there is. I'm gonna I'm gonna
look it up, and if not, I am going to
it's your time to shine exactly. And then my last
half nipple, um, my last half nipple hasco that Bengo jacket.

(02:02:25):
I'm going to recreate that Bengo jacket. I know, I
feel like there should be we have to contact Superyarchy
stat there should be repros of of the Bengo jacket,
or we should have like a like a crafternoon. That
would be so fun. Oh my god, this is the
first time I'm hearing this expression. Crafternoon. Yes, and it's

(02:02:49):
changed my life. Imagine the time we're going to save. Absolutely,
crafternoons are great. Well, Jess, thank you so much for
coming back and for this bringing a wonderful discussion that
was a pleasure. Where can people follow your stuff, check
out your stuff online, support you, etcetera. Um So, the

(02:03:13):
best way, the best place to find me is at
rad Babe on Instagram and it's like underscore rad Underscore
Babe Underscore. Anyway, if you search Jeff Marilyn, you'll find
me on Instagram. Um. I didn't think about the branding
when I chose the name. Okay uh and I'm I'm
always out there in the world doing doing queer stuff,

(02:03:36):
doing in indigit queer stuff, doing fat stuff, doing movie stuff.
Um So that's the best way to find me in
to to follow me. Um if you happen to be
in Montreal. Right now, the Cedar t Project, which is
a black and Indigenous solidarity project especially for street involved folks,
is doing a fundraiser, so you can check them out

(02:03:59):
on Facebook at the Theater Tea Project if you're looking
for something to support UM. I also have their information
up on my Instagram, so that's why you can find me.
I have a film that I made, a documentary called
Love is the First Sacred Lesson that is going to
be playing some film festivals this fall, so keep an
eye up for that. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I'm

(02:04:20):
very excited because it takes so long to make films
and then you know, you're like, I don't really want
to have anything to do with it anymore, so put
it out in the world. No, no, I this this
film is really really close to my heart in a
lot a lot of ways, so I'm excited for people
to see it. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being
here again. Whenever you want to come back, bring us

(02:04:42):
another movie and we'll talk more. Oh absolutely, And you guys,
you know, come to Montreal now that like things are
opening up a little bit, like well craft, dude, baby, Absolutely,
and we'll eat bagels and you know speak French. Carolyn
and I are always doing that, so it's just gonna

(02:05:03):
be another day for us, right, It's gonna be amazing.
You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Becktel Cast.
You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon. It's five
dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus
episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, which is

(02:05:24):
over one hundred bonus episodes at this point, so there's
lots of stuff to go through. It's a good time
to join um. You can also get our merch at
dot com Slage The Bechtel Cast, follow your heart, do
it or don't do it, We won't know either way.
But if you want some stuff, that's where you can
get some stuff. And with that, seems like we've gotten

(02:05:44):
pretty adequately sticky this episode. I'm extremely sticky, very stick
Never been stickier sticky with discourse. That is wow. Whoa okay,
bye bye ye

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