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July 4, 2024 88 mins

Bello!!! Caitlin and Jamie are discussing MINIONS!!! FYI, talking about Kevin, Stuart, and Bob passes the Bechdel Test. Okay poo-pye! 

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeph and
vest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Bello below Minions. It's the Minions episode of the Bechtel Cast.
I could cry, I could cry.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Oh, hi, Minion, Jamie, it's me Minyon.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Caitlin Bello, Caitlin Bello, Jamie God. I just love these
damn Minions. I'm in a great lude, I mean, Befel
Cast listeners, it is important for feminism that you go
see Dispicable with me for so to help facilitate that.
And to be clear, we are in no way sponsored

or affiliated with the Minions, and that is a source
of pain for both of us. But all of the
raw enthusiasm you're about to hear is uncompety for free,
simply because it's Minion seasoned baby. It's Britney bitch, It's
bitch's bitch. I have two millions in my lap.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
I was with you when you got that. Tell the
listeners what we're looking at, Gane.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh yes, sorry, I forgot that. We've been in an
audio medium for eight years. So I'm holding a little
Dracula Minion I forgot. I honestly forgot because we got
this around Caitlin and I went to Universal together as
we were wont to do around Halloween, and I was like,
Dracula Minion, gotta have it. Forgot that there is precedent
for Dracula Minion. As we'll discuss today, this is a
minion that's appeared. And then I also have just my

Kevin at hand all time. Although I did get some
new Minion merch, I'm kind of bummed. Honestly. Well, we'll
get it. We have to say what the podcast this first,
but I have like that, I guess in Despable before
they're kind of like doing a spy thing. So I
have some spy minions.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
They changed professions every so often because you just want
to see them in different little outfits. It's that simple.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
It's like Barbie in that way.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
It really is.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
The minions are Barbie.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
The minions are Barbie. The Minions are this Summer's Barbie.
And I'll go on a whole rant about why another
movie that we have no affiliation with, Inside Out too
don't see it. I'm sick of emotional intelligence being encouraged
when you could simply go watch Minions. I will not
be listening to a nuanced discussion on the topic. I

literally got into an argument with my therapist about it
the other day. Okay, yeah, because Minions didn't come up
at first. But she's like, I just saw Inside Out too,
I think you'd love it, which is also a way
of calling me unable to regulate my own feelings, which
is why I'm there. But she's like, you should see
Inside Out too, and I was like no, and she

was like, I think you'd like it. And I was like,
I'm gonna go see Minions and whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
And that's okay, well, Jamie, to add to your collection
mm hmm. And we will get to the Bechdel test boring.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yes, which this movie doesn't pass. Whatever, No it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
We'll talk about it, but we have Minions business to
tend to. Yes, Okay, you may or may not remember this, Jamie,
but your birthday two years ago, I mean, of course
you remember it. Being at medieval times, yes, hashtag red
Night one the day you were given many gifts and
then you couldn't take them with you. I think because

you were going onward to another place you couldn't carry
them with you. Yes, I have been hanging on to this. Oh.
Actually our friend Bryant has been hanging on to it forever.
And then I was like, give me that back so
that I can give it to Jamie on her upcoming birthday.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Here it is ready. Oh my god, it's a little
so fub bob. It's hand knit.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Where did you get it?

Speaker 3 (03:59):
I got it in Edinburgh, Scotland. Ever heard of it?

Speaker 2 (04:03):

Speaker 3 (04:03):
When I was there two years.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Two years ago. I'm so excited. I don't have a Bob.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
Well, now you do.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I have so many Kevin's and no, Well, I guess
this is I don't even know.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
This is like that's somebody else.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
The Despicable Me. Well we should tell them what the
Bechtel Cousins. But the Despicable Me movies pound for pound
versus the Minions spinoff movies. It's minions every time. Give
the people what they want. I don't care about groos interpersonal.
I honestly I said this in my letterbox review of
this movie. If the girls were sent to boarding, I

think that he should send them to boarding school. I said,
get them out, get them divorce Kristen Wig like, I
don't care about his personal life. Leave it at the door,
go to work, steal the moon, talk to the minions.
That's all I want from grew.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yes, all right, there's so much jun pack already. The
Bechdel Test.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, oh yeah, you're Kaitli. My name is Jamie first.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah. The Bechdel Test is a medium metric that we
used simply as a jumping off point, created by queer
cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. Many
versions of it, the one we use. Do two characters
of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to
each other? And is their conversation about something other than
a man or about minions? Because minions are boys, and

we like it when it's a substantial media conversation, and
it rarely happens to this day.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, it's so frustrating that the creator of Minions, who
is I guess technically the person to at least be
able to canonically make that call, would not just let
the Minions be genderless icons as everyone had interpreted them
to be. But we'll get into that. Because I think
I have so many theories as to why he is
doing what he's doing. Pierre CoFe, this is your trial.

You're on trial.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yes, And before we go into our personal histories and
relationship with the Minions, listeners of the show might know
that any chance we get, we bring up the Minions,
not unlike every chance we get we bring up Titanic,
or every chance we get we bring up Shrek.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and much just like Shrek, it started as a
joke and then slowly became real when we were like,
wait a second, these movies are actually very funny and
be watchabule. And there's certain you know, cultural phenomenons that
it's easy to make fun of because you're like whatever,
like I don't get it, But the Minions, if you

don't get it, baby, you're the problem. Like, yeah, they're undeniable.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Jamie, what is your relationship with this franchise?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
I love them? Okay, So my history with Minyas is
actually and I know for listeners who are Matreon subscribers
that listen to our Despicable Me episode two years ago,
and so if you're interested in hearing us talk about
it more, you can go over to the Matreon Patreon
dot com slash back to past five dollars a month,
So this may be us rehashing something similar from two

years ago, so sorry for that. But I was a
bit of a late comer to the Minions. I saw
to Spick on Me one in theaters in high school,
and I was like, wow, I really liked that. That
was a really sweet movie. And I love those little
guys because if there's anything I love in this world,
it's a little guy. I love a little guy so much.

I truly like when I heard Radio starts approving limited
series again, I do want to do an entire series
on the appeal of the little guy because little guys
are just incredible, and also like little guys in like
primary colors, yellow is a color for me, Minions, SpongeBob Woodstock,
like you could keep going with like just the very

visually appealing for children little guy and having them like
represent be represented there's because they're so vague looking, like
they're just tic TACs, like they could represent anything. It's
the best. But yeah, I saw the first Despicable TV
and I was like, wow, that was fun, and then
I fell off and then I came back for this

movie for Minions, This movie came out in twenty fifteen,
so at this point I'm an adult. I didn't see
it in theaters, but I just remember being like, oh,
the origin story for the Minions. I am actually interested
because I think the worst part and this sucks that
this is lining up with Despicable Me for the premise
of which I think is just rancid. I hope this

movie is good. It's also written by Mike White, which
is wild. Oh right, yeah, I think we broke that
news fairly early because because we care. But yeah, the
people are the least interesting part of Despicable Me Expanded Universe.
And I was like, oh, they're just gonna give me
only the parts I like, which is the Minions doing

looney tune shit, because I firmly believe the more I
watched Minions, because after this movie, I'm like, I'm in.
I'm in for all of it. I'll show up for
any of it. I saw Rise of Grew opening weekend,
and then my mom is a second grade teacher, so
it like, actually, I think it actually did help like
heal our relationship a little bit, where it had just

been a really really really long time since my mom
and I had a common interest hmmm, or just like
something that we could like text about that was like
easy and fun. And so when I went from being like,
minions are fun in an ironic sense and achieved nirvana
and was like, the Minions are actually really funny and

Kevin Stewart and Bob, I think this movie makes a
strong case that has only increased in Rise of Grew
that they are like our Marx brothers, and like, I
know that that's verboten for some people to say, but
that's clearly who they're supposed to be, and they're really
good at it. They're like bugs, Bunny, They're Marx brothers,
They're like all of these like classic comedy, goofy slapstick boys.

Speaker 3 (10:04):

Speaker 2 (10:04):
So yeah. Then it was really fun to like share
that with my mom because I was like, this will
help you connect with your seven year old students who
definitely watched these movies, and overnight she became a Minion's mom.
And it brought meself because there's like also whatever like
precedent for the ironic interest in this, and then also
the fact that I think it's like it has to
do with the fact that the minions are cute and

so generic looking it almost right. Oh, another little guy
who is yellow Tweetybird, another character that you see on
a lot of graphic te's with some sassy phrase. This
happens to all of the little guys. Snoopy is one
of the little guys that you just see, like Garfield
is a little guy. It's endless. People love to put

a sassy, sassy wine mom phrase next to a little guy.
And so my mom got into it, which only intensified
our mutual interest because we bonded over it. And now
it's it's just like it's for life. I love these
damn minions, and I think this movie is I would
say this movie is not as good as Rise of Grew,

but it's still I still enjoy it more than any
Despicable Me movie. I think it's really fun. I just
thought of another little guy winning the poop. It's just
all of these little guys, the little guys. Caitlin, what's
your history with le Mignons?

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Okay, I'm gonna say some stuff that might be controversial.
I'm gonna say some stuff that might be full on blasphemous.
I head until very recently, only ever seen Despicable Me. One.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
That's okay, That's okay.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
And Rise of Grew. So I saw both of those
movies in theaters. We were both in at Rise of Grew. Yeah,
I saw it when I was in Amsterdam on the
same trip where I got Your Bob in Edinburgh.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Oh, I love to hear it.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
But here's the thing, I was asleep for a lot
of it. I was very tired and I needed an
app so I did sleep through a large chunk of
Rise of Grew. But I saw it before I ever
saw Minions One, which I saw for the first time
on a plane coming back from a different trip to

Europe that I came back from like three weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
What a traveler, I know.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
I'm so cultured. So I had never seen Minions One before,
and I don't think I've seen any of the other
Despicable Me movies, so I'm not as immersed in the lore.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Well, I'll be real and raw with you for a second. Yeah,
because I do. I really appreciate your forthcomingness.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
You're welcome, and I.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Also think, honestly, a lot of people who are fans
of the Minions it's not like they've seen all five,
now six movies. I'll be honest with you, I haven't
seen Despicable Me three. I've just seen clips on YouTube.
I've seen Despicable Me one and two. I've seen Minions
one and two. I haven't seen Despicable Meat three because
I know that it's about like Groo finding his twin brother.

It's just always too much grew interpersonal problems, and so
I just like was not really in a rush to
see Despicable Me three. However, I have watched one clip
of minions from Despicable Me three easily weekly, like sometimes truly,
and this speaks to my own emotional intelligence. Like if
it's like late and I'm like tired and I'm like cranky,

my boyfriend will be like, let's watch the minions in
jail scene, and it will always put me in a
better mood. Because I'm a baby. I don't know what for.
But in Despicable Me three, the minions go to jail
and they immediately take over the jail and everyone is
so scared of though it's very Paddington two. Coded I
was gonna say, that's what happens in Paddington two, Yes,

but except no one learns a lesson. No one learns
about themselves, which is part of what I love about
the Minions. I feel like it is across children's media,
a lot of stuff is important. I think like it's
a really really positive thing that there are so many
successful children's franchises that are rooted and empathy and understanding.
Paddington definitely qualifies as one, you know, inside out to

a movie I refuse to watch would be another. I
think Pixar movies in general are generally encouraging empathy, but
I feel like it is just as valid to have
children's entertainment that is bonking each other on the head repeatedly.
And I feel like when the Minions like debuted in

twenty ten, they were soft launched in Despicable Me One, Yes,
which you can listen to our Patreon episode about like
how the rules of the Minions have changed because in
Despicable Me One their employees that are paid money, right,
which this movie directly contradicts. For sure, whatever that the

canon problem. But I do feel like around twenty ten,
like where Pixar was at its life greatest success up
it just come out. It's like all of these really
emotionally complex children's movies, there was kind of this like
empty space for like what if something was just goofy
and like looney tunsy, and it felt like the Minions
just like rose to the occasion. And I kind of
appreciate that they haven't backed off of that, which is

again it's like the Despicable Meat like Grew always learns
a lesson. Yeah, the Minions they don't. They don't, and
I love that about them. They're so me for that.
They never improved, they never.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Learn I think that Shrek farted so that the Minions
could bunk themselves on the head.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
It also just like I this is so good, Like
this sounds bad, this sounds antithetical to about this podcast
is I like Minions cartoon violence. I love it. I
think it is so funny the fact that John Hamm
tries to hang Kevin. Yeah, in this movie, you're just
like and it's a PG movie and we're fine with it.

When I watched this song because at the time we're
recording this, this movie is streaming on Netflix. At the
beginning with like the rating, it just said like rudeness
was the content warning, Like CW, these guys are rude
little dudes. Well, here's the.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
Other controversial, blasphemous thing I have to say, which is
that the movie Minions One I think is a bad movie.
I think the story is flimsy. I think it's Oh.
I'm not saying I don't love the Minions and that
I don't love the Minions in the movie, But as
far as the story goes, if I'm looking at it
through a screenwriting point of view, I think it is

legitimately bad and I think it's badly miscast. I don't
know why Sandra Bullock is there. I don't know why
John Ham is there actually doing very good jobs. Why
is Michael Keaton in the movie.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
I always forget Michael Keaton's in the movie. Which can
we all at least agree that Jeffrey Rush was a
great choice.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
He is a good choice for a narrator. I'm glad
that he's there.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
He gave it his all. He kept saying the Minion
the million. He clearly had much like Bill Nyh. He
did Detective Pikachu for his like Grandchild, I feel like
Jeffrey Rush made a similar play here and and we're
better for it.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yes, I agree, And then Pierre, he is doing a
great job as the Minions, and I do love the
Minions again, I like them in this movie any scene
that there are other characters in it. I'm not really
enjoying myself, I will say, but I love the Minions,
and I love Bob, little Bob.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
I love that you love He's just a baby.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
He's just a little baby. And I normally don't like
babies or children, but I want to be Bob's mom,
and that's wild coming from me.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
I love that you love Bob.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
I bought Well, here's my other little item. It's a
little Bob enamel pin that I bought from univers.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
I recognize, I was like, I've almost bought that before
I recognize it. Gosh, I have to get back to
you Universal presently so I can get all this hot merch.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah. I just renewed my past, so let's go anytime.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Me too, Okay, Yeah, I think it is if you're
not a fan of the Minions and you're watching this
movie for I mean, even if you're watching this movie
as a like a parent or a parent age who
like doesn't like the Minions, or like don't think the
Minions are funny, I understand why this movie doesn't have
a lot of narrative cohesion. It honestly feels like a

series of shorts as opposed to a movie. It feels
like a bunch of Looney Tunes shorts in a row,
where it's like, yeah, before we get it. I mean,
I don't think it'll take long to summarize the plot
of this movie anyways, but well that's what you think.
It's actually distinctively complex. But like, the way that I'm
still able to like engage with the Dominions ironically is

like they're hugely a commercial product. Like you can tell
that a lot of what is fun about the Minions
is also so very calculated at best, devious at worst,
because these are like they're they're literally designed to be
global products. The language that they speak are an amalgamation

of the most popularly spoken languages in the world, so
that a kid from any country can watch this movie
and instantly connect with it and feel like, oh, I
know what that word is. I know what that word is,
Like it's the way that Minnie is. Again, this will
be in my thesis limited series podcast on this topic.
Like they are designed to be globally appealing, but it works.

It works.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
I was just saying this on a recent Matreon episode.
I don't know what episode it was, but I think
I'm fluent in minuonis. I don't think I could speak it,
but I can understand.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
It reminds me of this is like just connected to
something that was imparted to me. But do you like
in the Series of Unfortunate Events series of the Three Orphans,
one is a baby who always says like what sounds
like gobbledygook, but then you're it's translated within the book
to be like she said this, which meant this, and
she's basically speaking mininie, where like when you grow up,

you're like, oh, that's a Japanese word that she said
that was like what you know? And so and the
minions just like take this two and eleven. It's really cool. Wait,
I want to look up the list of the most
prominently featured like Okay, English, Filipino, French, Hindi, Korean, Spanish
are all tied into minniese, and I feel like that

doesn't even include sometimes where it's just like a made
up word, or.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
It's like an English word that is just adjusted so
that it sounds kind of gibberishy, but it also sort
of sounds like English.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Because they say they also just say like below and POOPI,
which is just baby talk like, but I think they're
really funny. But they're also just like fascinating because it
does feel like they were like successfully made in a
lab to be a glade appealing little cartoon Marx Brothers.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
And this movie made at the box office one point
one five nine billion dollars.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
That's so off of a seventy four million dollar budget,
which is wild. And the other thing that's interesting about
the Minions, oh No, like is between Minions one and two,
I feel like you can sense a distinct cultural shift
because I think that the ultimately the goals of these

movies is to make money and to appeal to the
whitest audience possible. Obviously, the merchandising on the Minions to
huge numbers in no small part thanks to us.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
I mean we're buying a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yes, But in like twenty fifteen, this movie comes out
and its interests are strictly in the West. The cities
we see heavily featured are New York, Orlando, and London.
Fast forward to twenty twenty two, A lot has changed
in the global economy, because the economy what this movie
is concerned by, and in Minions too. There is a

vested interest in the East and in China specifically, and
it's like I feel like you can weirdly trace the
like direction of the global economy to where the Minions
end up. It's very weird. Hmmm, yes, I swear to
I know, I sound like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat,

but I feel so sure that I'm right. No.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, I didn't even remember exactly where, because they're in
San Francisco. Yeah, but there's a Michelle Yo character who's
teaching them kung fu.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
And there's a big Chinese New Year celebration that is
like the climax of and most of the merchandising for
that movie was drawn from the Chinese New Year imagery.
My key, well, I'll show you my keys are at
a Minions Chinese New Year. Oh yes, so it's just listeners,

feel free to tell me that I'm watching too many
Minions movies. It is true, but I do feel like
it's like because it is like these movies are such
a like cravenly commercial product. It's interesting to see like
what cultures they choose to represent in some years versus
other years based on how much money they think they

can make. So that's just minions commerce observation.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
No, I love it. Should we do the.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Recap, Let's take a break and come back, because we've
already been talking about minions for a half hours.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
All right, we'll be right back, and we're back. We're back,
and here is the recap for Minions one from twenty fifteen.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
And of course it immediately gets complicated.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well, the movie opens and we see I would estimate
about three point five billion years worth of evolution of
the minions. They start as single celled organism minions. They
are following the biggest, baddest creatures in the primordial soup.
Then one day they emerge from the ocean, having evolved

into the modern minions that we recognize.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yes, the minions do subscribe to the evolution theory. This
is a godless world in which they live. Yes, which, again,
like you're like, okay, minions. I feel like part of
this was in response to, like, there were so many
memes about the minions in the early years of Despicable Me,
where they would be like do they have skeletons? What
do they look like with their goggles off? You know,

just like sort of a bunch of like sorry that
like really loud guys on YouTube being like what is this?
Like you know, and I feel like all of those
questions are answered in the opening statements of this movie.
But yeah, the menions, they they're darwinning, they're evolving.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yes, they also, as Pierre Kofun has said, they don't reproduce.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
And ostensibly, from what I can gather, they don't reproduce,
which would make sense because it seems like they can't die.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
They might be invincible. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
I mean, maybe there's some wild shit going on in
Despicable Me three. But of the four out of five
movies I've seen and I double checked this to be
thorough for this episode, the closest you see to a
minion dying, which I guess maybe does make the cartoon
violence a little more palatable, as you're like led to
believe like they're bonked but they're never actually hurt. There

is a minion at one point that gets I think
it's Despicably b one who like ends up getting sucked
into space. Oh but he's just like floating in space.
They can't die, they're immortal, and they don't reproduce.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Jealous, I know, truly, so we get voiceover from Jeffrey Rush.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
He's so good.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
The minions came this sure his Pirates of the Caribbean residuals,
you know, diminishing returns, and he's like, I need a
new living room or something, and so he did this movie.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
I think it's like he wanted to impress his grandson.
He wanted his grandson wasn't old enough to watch Pirates
of the Caribbean. He's like, all right, check this out.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
I can't say for sure, but anyway, he's.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Explaining, bru when you ruwen Bill Nye, he said, mew too,
mew two. It feels like that.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Hmm, yes, it does.

Speaker 2 (26:48):

Speaker 3 (26:48):
So Jeffrey Rush is explaining that the minion's goal is
to serve the most despicable master that they can find,
such as t Rex during dinosaur times, and then many
millions of years later they start serving humans in caveman times,
and then we see them in ancient Egypt. They serve

Dracula for a while later Napoleon, but they always accidentally
kill their boss.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Which also like would make you know, potentially we're recording
this before Despicable and me before it comes out. It
would be awesome if they eventually kill Grew killed Grew.
I mean, they can't die. So this whole opening sequence,
it's Ben talks about to death in Midians culture. But yeah,
the fact that like just the Minians were not just

present but critical in the development of life with the dinosaurs,
with the caveman. Yes, they not just killed an ancient
Egyptian pharaoh, they also built the pyramids. Yes, that killed
said pharaoh. They are sometimes, i'mes, serving someone who is fictional,

like Dracula. They're sometimes serving someone that people might argue
or is too real, like Napoleon.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
And what I think is really interesting that they do.
And again it's like this is applying an adult brain
to a kid's movie about little guys bunking each other
in the head. But I think like Napoleon already feels
like if they have to go to the most evil master,
Napoleon makes sense if you know anything about the Napoleonic Wars,

wild to imply what they might have done while working
for him. But it feels like this, like franchise in general,
just makes kind of like slap dashed. I mean, And
also pierreco Fan is French, so it feels like he's
fucking with French history in a way that feels a
little tongue in cheek. Yeah, but like the things that

they I feel like sometimes the Minions movies will just
decide like, well we're over that, We're not over this.
Where in this they're like, well, the Napoleonic Wars were
so long ago, people won't care if the Minions were there.
But there's a very deliberate decision for the one hundred
and fifty years before the movie starts, that the Minions
are out of play for any human atrocities that happened

between the Civil War, the Minions were not there and onwards,
like basically anything from the last century and a half
or so, the Minions were out of play. I think
that that's a really smart move. I know people have
made fun of it a lot, but it's like, if
these are canonically who we've said the Minions are technically
when they were introduced in twenty ten, they were asside
characters no one really like you could guess, but like

no one would have guess they would have become a
global phenomenon, and now they have their own movie. I
think it's very smart to put them in a cave
for two hundred years.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Right, what's the movie going to do? Be like?

Speaker 2 (29:49):

Speaker 3 (29:49):
And then they worked for Hitler.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
No, right, they fought for the Confederacy, Like, no, no,
because we want to love the minions, we do, should
not have worked for Napoleon. But they learned their lesson
and they migrated to the North Pole or wherever the
fuck they went.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Right, they go into seclusion in this ice cave. But
after a while in the cave, they're growing restless and
depressed about not having an evil boss to serve until
one day and men, you named Kevin Kevin le Mignon,
to be exact.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
I love how this is like Kevin's movie the way
that Like the movie is called mad Max, but it's
about Furio. So the movie is called Manias, but it's
about Kevin. So wait, Bob is we I guess we did?
Haven't benished with it? Bob is your favorite?

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Bob is my favorite? Yes, you're a Kevin head.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
I love Kevin. I just love Kevin. He's tall, and
he has leadership qualities. I loved him.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I love Bob because he likes animals and he
carries a little teddy bear.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Around and he's adorable.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
He's the cutest and sweetest.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, Bob is an mpath I love when he meets Pucci.
My mom does this thing called Minion Mondays in her
second grade class room where you get some sort of
like if you wear yellow or blue on a Monday,
if you're just like Minion cosplaying on a Monday, she'll
give you like a treat or something. But on every

Minion Monday, my mom will be like asking the kids, like, Okay,
who's my favorite Minion and everyone will say Bob, And
then my mom will be like, and who does Jamie
want to marry? And then they'll all go Kevin. Because
I said that to them, Oh, I know it impacted.

I didn't realize what an impact it would be to
say that I wanted to marry Kevin the Minion. But
I do feel like he has the qualities outside of
being like a proven war criminal, apparently like he has
many of the qualities I'm looking for, like having leadership
qualities and giving you a little kiss.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
All he is nerd. He wipes the crud off of
Bob's face.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
And then when he's all big spoiler alert, he kisses
all his friends.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
It's really nice the Minions. They care about each other.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
They love each other, and I love that they all
have like fuck boy names, like all that is like
a feature of the Minions. It's like Kevin, Bob, Stewart, Chris,
like like random guys mel Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Okay, So one day Kevin declares that he's going to
go back out into the world to find the baddest
boss around.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, He's like elected himself as Luke Skywalker. He's like,
I just realize I am the protagonist. So here I go.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
I'm the chosen one. He recruits some help, some minions
within minions when you think about it, Okay, layers like
onions have layers, ogres have layers. Blah blah blah. The
help the minions are Stuart and Bob.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Sure, it's a bit of a rock star. He's got
a bit of an ego on him. He's a little horny.
He tries to have sex with not one, but three
fire Hydrants.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah. Yeah, he's trying to initiate a threesome at one
point with two fire Hydrants. I love it, and that's
pretty cool. Yeah, I think that's really forward thinking. Yeah,
polyamorous king Stuart. Okay, so the three of them, Kevin
Stewart and Bob set off, eventually making their way to

New York City. Ever heard of it? The year is
nineteen sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
And boy will they do. We were joking about this
in our recently recorded Madam Web episode about how that movie,
at some point in production was decided to be in
two thousand and three, and they really bonk you over
the head with like remember this, and it doesn't bother me.
The minions do it because they do it so much

that it starts to be parody. Like how expensive was
this soundtrack? It was every single song, the Dad's like
the Beatles, the everything was in this movie.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Oh yeah. So they are in New York and they
learn about something called Villain con a convention in Orlando, Florida,
where villains gather from all over and this year it
will feature a special appearance by Scarlet Overkill, the world's

first female super villain. Okay, feminism alert, we wo we woo.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Okay, you're joking, but I feel like Scarlet Overkill. We've
talked about this of like how the girl boss phrase
is so liberally given out and I feel like sometimes
it's just like a term that's WEAPONI is to be
like a woman I don't like who has more power
than me is like labeled as a girl boss when

the definition of a girl boss is a woman who
uses feminist language to accrue conventional patriarchal power, and that
is Miss Scarlett Overkill to the hilt. She is a
girl boss.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
And the minions are enthralled by Scarlet and they want
to work for her, so they hitchhike two Orlando with
a family who turns out to be bank robbers who
are also headed to villan Con.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Another weird page, like we didn't need that, that could
have been anyone, right.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
The mom and dad of this family are voiced by
Michael Keaton and Alison Janny.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Which I genuinely didn't even know until this viewing. Oh really,
Oh wow, Yeah, I didn't clock their voice and then
when you know, you know, but that kind of bummsy out.
I feel like the art of voice acting is a
very specific one and it's just sort of been like
motover by, like celebrity stunt casting in since like Lindsay
Ellis has a good video about it, since like Aladdin,

so like the last thirty years.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, that's why I don't like John hamm in the role.
I don't like Sandra Bullock in the role. I like
them as actors in general, but like they're not as
strong a voice actors as actual voice actors.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, every time I watch this movie, I think that
it's Jason Manzukus and not John Ham. Does that connect
it all? Every single time I've watched this movie, I
was like, wait, and then I remember it's John Ham,
but it feels like it's John Ham doing a Jason
man Zukus. I mean, I'm a huge Jason Manzukus fan.
I think he would actually be a great choice for
that character because it just sounds like him anyways, right, No,

I see that, Yeah, anyways, but yeah, the celebrity stunt casting.
It's like, this movie has a fairly low budget for
what it is, but it could have been even lower
by just not doing that. I don't know, right, I
feel like no one is more likely to see this
movie because Michael Keaton plays a bit part, Like it
just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
No, I don't know why they do that, but anyway,
the family that they're hitching a ride with robs a
bank and the minions help them get away by basically
killing a bunch of cops. So the minions say, acab.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
I mean, but if they're working for the most evil people,
but they do kill. Like another thing about this, he was,
I've always sort of like paused by, is how obviously
dead those cops are. It's like that car crash is
so bad.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
They kill them.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
They killed cops, Yes, and you know, God bless love
you guys.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yep. So then Kevin, Stewart and Bob arrive at villain
con and watch this like presentation thing from Scarlet Overkill
voiced by Sandra Bullock where she says she's looking for
new henchmen and whoever can steal the ruby she's holding
gets the job. So a bunch of kind of wannabe

villains try and the ruby, including Kevin, Bob, and Stewart.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
And also there's like a meaningless plot point added here
that like Kevin has a crush on Scarlet Overkill, right,
But I was like, because they canonically don't experience desire,
that it was just like he wanted her validation or something.
I don't know, that's my husband.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
I couldn't tell if it was like a romantic crush
or if he was just enamored by the idea of
working for her, because she's presented as being like the
awesomest super villain at the time.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Right of her acceptance. I'm gonna go with that because
that's literally my boyfriend. He's taken.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Well, do minions are asexual canonically they don't reproduce.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yes, they're canonically a sexual. I mean even though we
were not allowed to receive them as genderless icons, as
non binary icons, we can still accept them as asexual icons.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Well, that doesn't explain why Stuart wants to have sex
with those two fire hydrants.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Then I think that Stuart is just kind of the
watch be like totally deflect. I think Stuart's just kind
of like doing his own thing.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Okay, sure, let's go with that.

Speaker 2 (39:17):

Speaker 3 (39:17):
In any case, so these villains are trying to pass
this test from Scarlett Overkill, including Kevin, Bob and Stewart,
who end up being the ones to take the ruby
from her, and Scarlet is impressed. She hires them and
then she takes them to London, England ever heard of that?

And the reason she goes there is because Scarlett wants
Queen Elizabeth's crown. And if you're wondering, are we gonna
meet Queen Elizabeth in nineteen sixty eight. Yes we do.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes, another canonical girl boss.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
And also we're like, okay, if the Minions work for
the most despicable person around, yes, would that not the
Royal family of England?

Speaker 2 (40:02):
I know, I know in any year the rules are
unclear and we're not given a list of Scarlett's crimes.
I know. It's like it really does feel like evil
is like just sort of applied to like general vibes
and aesthetics versus actual things done. But whatever, probably better
for the kids, right I don't think the kids need

the details.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah, well, I don't know. I think kids should learn
about the atrocities of imperialism and colonialism of the world
early on. But that's just me, I agree, But not
an Amnions movie.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Not an Aminions movie, right, Like, it's like we'll kick
that to Pixar and see how they do. But I
do feel like there is value in escapist media, and
that's Minions. I just like, if you're going to do
Minions to learn, you got to get a library card,
like grow up up, right, kids?

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Okay, So Scarlett wants Queen Elizabeth's crown because it's established
that she has some possible unresolved childhood trauma, and she
wants to be a princess so that everyone will love her.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, and she.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Wants the minions to steal the crown for her. We
meet her husband, Herb, played by John Hamm. He gives
Kevin Stewart and Bob some gear and some weapons, and
then they head to the Tower of London, where the
Queen's crown is kept. They use Herb's devices to try

to steal the crown, but then it gets delivered to
Queen Elizabeth voiced by Jennifer Saunders of Shrek to Fame.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
No way, wait, I didn't know this.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, she plays the fairy Godmother.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Whoa. Yeah, this isn't even a dream Works thing. It's
just a quizidence. That's nice.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
It's that universal umbrella, I guess.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Wow. Wow, I love it.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
So the minions are chasing Queen Elizabeth. They're flopping all
over London. There's a lot of you know, minions slapstick happening.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
They get stomped on by the Beatles like it truly
is like all of these micro and I also feel like,
while this movie is such a global product, it also
feels weirdly personal to the like people at the top
of illumination who grew up in the sixties and seventies,
and that's why these Minions movies take place when the

creators of this product happen to be growing up. Like
there is also a level of like old guy nostalgia
to like, what if we put the Beatles in here,
what if we did this, what if we did this,
where it just clearly feels like stuff that like Pierre Goa,
Kyle Balta, and Chris Mellon Johnny liked when they were kids,
which is not a criticism, it's just like, yeah, it's
like they're doing the nostalgia thing. It's like if I
made a Minions movie and I should and was like,

and here's a Backstreet Boys you know whatever.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Oh, I can't wait till we get that in I
don't know, twenty thirty eight or sooner.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, come on, give me some credit. Yeah, I mean.
And every Minions movie tends to advance by like a
decade where they're in the sixties or in the seventies.
The next movie, theoretically they'll be in the eighties. We'll see.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Wow, I'll wait till the end of the recap to
get there, but I have a timeline criticism, but I'll
save it.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Okay, fair enough, Okay. So the minions are.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
Flopping all around town and some cops are chasing them,
so Bob pulls the legendary sword in the Stone out
of the Stone, I guess to like fight off the cops,
but that makes him the rightful King of England. So
Queen Elizabeth has to hand over her crown, which makes

Scarlett Overkill upset because she wants to be royalty. She
thinks the minions are betraying her and like claiming the
throne for themselves.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
The girl bosses have turned on the minions. It's bad,
it's bad, but we do get the amazing. According to
second graders, because I've watched it with him, there's nothing
a seven year old loves more than the King Bob sequence.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Second Graders all love King Bob, especially because it's like,
I think Bob is probably the most emotionally intelligent, like
easy insert for kids, because it's like he's really excited
and then he gets the job of King of England
and then all of a sudden he's nervous and he
just wants his friends, and it's really cute, I know,

and they also destroy Buckingham Palace like they're agents of chaos.
I really don't think that if left in power, the
minions would colonized places. I think they would just jump
on the bed and like eat.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
That's true, they would eat bananas.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Right, because we're told they're bad, but they're bad in
a directionless way. If left to their own devices, they
will just jump on the bed.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
Yeah, and then they kill their bosses. So honestly they
should work for more evil people and then accidentally kill them.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
I think we actually have to. We should be thanking
them for killing so many bad people.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yeah. Well, anyways, we've also been periodically cutting to the
rest of the minions who are still in this arctic cave.
Kevin had called them at one point to tell them
that they have a new boss. So now all of
the other minions are on their way to England to

serve Scarlet overkill. Back in London, Scarlet storms in on
Bob Bean King. She's furious at the minions for betraying her,
but Bob willingly hands over the crown and his royal
position to Scarlet, even changing the laws to make that

legally possible.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
He's just a baby.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
He's just a little baby. And now the minions think
they're going to serve Scarlet, not that she's queen, but
instead she locks them in a dungeon, and this is
when herb tries to torture them and tries to hang Kevin.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Truly a shocking because they're like this setup is like, oh,
I'm gonna get the minions with all these medieval torture devices,
which feels very you know, like loo ne toun and see.
And there's never a fear that the minions will actually
get hurt. It's nothing like that. But it's just like
the fact that they lead with I'm going to hang
the minions, which is something that like, I think they

should have maybe started that sequence with something that no
longer exists. But the fact that they started with publicly
hanging the minions, it was just wild. It was wild. Yeah,
and then Kevin goes whoop, he just falls through ough.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, their little minion bodies.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
I love them. I love them. They're so smooth, It's true.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Now they find a way to escape and they make
their way to Westminster Abbey, where Scarlet is getting ready
for her coronation, because they want to apologize to her,
but they accidentally almost kill her because again they're always
killing their bosses, by dropping a chandelier on her, and

Scarlet thinks that the minions did this intentionally, so she
sends all of the other villains slash like Wanta be
henchmen who were at villain con after the minions. Kevin,
Stuart and Bob get separated from each other during this chase,
and the bad guys capture Stuart and Bob.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
What their plan is is so unclear where at some
point this movie just becomes like Scarlett v. Kevin and
you're just like, now, what did Kevin ever do to you?

Speaker 3 (48:02):
And the answer is nothing.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
All he ever did was love you.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
But Scarlett threatens to kill Stuart and Bob if Kevin
doesn't come back by dawn. We cut back to Kevin.
He sneaks into Herb's room of super villain devices and
he accidentally ends up in this machine that makes him huge,
like the size of a ten story building, and he

saves Stuart and Bob, who are about to be blown up,
but Scarlett has this rocket dress that she's using to
attack them.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
It's great, I mean, the Scarlet overkill looks are great
for me. I love it.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
The other Minions, the ones who are in the cave,
they show up and she's trying to kill them too,
So Giant Kevin takes her rocket and he puts it
in his mouth, and then he grabs Scarlet and herb
and it seems like they're all about to exp blowed,
but surprise, Kevin is alive and he's back to his

normal size. So we're not really sure how that happens.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
But No, it's important to emphasize the global impact of
when Kevin got big. Yes, no one saw it coming,
and I feel like at some point with the Minions
that they're also doing and despicable me for where they're
leading the marketing heavily with the Mega Minion Yes, which

I hope is not just an echo of We've had
evil Minions, We've had Mega Minions, We've had minions with
braces in the form of Auto in the Rise of Grow. Yeah,
Big Kevin was a watershed moment for Minions because you realize,
like they're little guys, but that's not always going to

be true. The fact that they blew Kevin up like
just again like cartoon violence moments that I feel like
rarely happened in contemporary movies where we talked about this
in some Pixar episode where like I expressed the frustration
of like it now feeling like there was a necessity

that a villain be redeemable or like defined by trauma,
or like that there would be some defense and that
like I understand the like I understand where that comes from,
but I just like don't find it very fun to watch,
to be like, at the end of Toy Story four,
if we forgive the villain and they were actually more
complicated than we realize, And then at the end of Minions,

Kevin blows up, like his whole body, he swallows a
rocket and he blows up, and then we are allowed
to believe if and it also like if I'm five
years old, I believe Kevin has died. Yeah, of course
the minions are humming taps, which is so funny because

also like theoretically this is the first minion to ever Yeah,
and then he's fine, Like I just I love that
sequence so much. It just it makes me happy that
we have our own Looney Tunes where you're like, he's immortal.
Kevin never truly blew up, but it's also like whatever
narratively important that Bob believed he could have died.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
I mean, we got to feel those steaks somehow.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
And then he has Poochy. Kids also love Poochy the
little rat. Yes, Bob's rat friend. Yeah wow, what a
special movie. Yeah yeah. Then they get knighted and you're
like all.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Right, okay, yeah, So here's how it ends. There's this
big celebration where Queen Elizabeth, who has been reinstated as
the royal leader, commends Kevin, Stuart and Bob for their
heroism gives them gifts nights Kevin, but oh no, Scarlet
shows up again and steals the Queen's crown, but she

is immediately stopped via an ice gun that belongs to
a drum roll please Guru, and the Minions see him
and they're like, hubba, hubba, who's that? And that's how
they find their new boss the end. And here's my

timeline issue. Okay, So Minions one takes place in nineteen
sixty eight. At the end of the movie, we see
grew for the first time. He appears to be ten
eleven years old. Minions two takes place in nineteen seventy six.
That's eight years after the first movie, Grow says he's
almost twelve. So in eight years, Grew has aged nothing,

no amount of time. What's up with that?

Speaker 2 (52:45):
I don't have answers. I have no answers. I guess
what I can say is that Grew is obviously built different,
you know, but in terms of an answer, that's about
as close as I can get. Okay, yeah, No, I
don't know. And I feel like Grew will be thirteen
in Minions three and it will inevitably be nineteen eighty seven.

So I don't know. These movies are so vibes and
also like part of what I think, I just really
have a bone to pick with Grew, where he is
just like the like he is necessary. I feel like
this movie does prove he's necessary. You do need a
human character grounding all these little guys, and Scarlett Overkill

is comparatively random to have done. So, so I know
Grew's necessary, but it is kind of nice to have
one movie that it's like, oops, no groove. Yeah, but
Rise of Grew is a better movie.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
I would agree with that it has a slightly more
cohesive story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll
come back to discuss.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
And we're back here we are, Okay, where do you
want to start?

Speaker 3 (54:07):
I would like to talk about the gender of the Minions.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yes, which will directly intersect with a critical interview in
Minion's Lore with Pierre Coffin.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Yes. So here's my thing with it, where Minions creator
Pierre has said explicitly that the minions are all male. They,
of course, are always voiced by actors who are men,
including Pierre Koffin himself. He told The Rap in twenty

fifteen regarding the gender of the Minions quote, seeing how
dumb and stupid they often are, I just couldn't imagine
minions being girls unquote. First of all, using ablest language
to characterize the minions not cool.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
I'll give him the pass of like we were also
using those words in twenty fifteen. Be serious, fair for fair. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Secondly, yes, the minions are silly and slapsticky and childish,
and they're usually not able to apply logic in many situations.
But girls can be that way too. People of any
gender can be anything. And I'm sure Pierre meant this
as a compliment, but a very narrow view like this

perpetuates very rigid binary expectations. Of gender. And then I
was thinking about slapstick comedy as a medium or slapstick
humor in movies and entertainment, and yes, goofiness and physical
humor and slapstick has often been associated with men, and

especially white men. You've got your Charlie, Chaplin's, your Buster Keaton's,
the Marx Brothers, the Three Stooges.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Right, which has everything to do with like who is
a low to be in movies at that time?

Speaker 3 (56:02):
For sure, women have been figures of slapstick comedy throughout history.
I was researching a few examples from like early Hollywood,
such as Mabel normand Marion Davies, Mary Pickford. There's of
course more recent contemporary examples actors like Kristen Wigg and
Melissa McCarthy. So women are participants of physical comedy and

slapstick humor in entertainment, but it's just that they're often
not associated with it, and they never get the same
level of fame and recognition. And I think what Pierre
actually is saying when he says this quote is I
don't think women are funny or capable of physical humor.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
I think you're being really mean. I disagree with you.
I mean, I think that where he's pulling from is
like a clear mid twenty tens feminism of this sort
of Like well, to imply that a woman would be
incompetent would be sexist, right, Like, it just feels like
a ret conning of like a million. I would really

be curious what the minions were originally intended to be.
I think that no one was really thinking about it.
They've always been given traditionally male names. Yeah, what I
wish she had said, because what I feel like is
probably closer to the truth is like I really liked
the Marx Brothers, and I just wanted to make a
million Marx Brothers. I do think that like there is
some like gender discrimination built into that. I don't think

it is like super villain levels of because again, like
the language fair enough, but like this is ten years
ago and those words were not commonly considered to be
ablest at that time. But I think even in twenty fifteen,
the decision to say definitively that all of these characters
are men is bizarre because why not just say they're

whoever you want them to be? I know, because I
feel like in children's media, especially like I would also
I think it would be weird if he was like, no,
explicitly some are women, some are not. Like it's more
just like who cares. They're little guys. Guys, but in
the genderless sense, like they're little guys, they're whoever you
want them to be. If you think they're funny, then

you like them. I think it's interesting that he went
out of his way to declare them to be men.
I don't think it makes them a bad person. I
think it is an interesting choice given his background. And
this is a little bit speculative. He had a French
father and an Indonesian mother, and his mother was a
very prominent Indonesian feminist novelist of her generation. So Pierre

Cofet like, he's not just being like a d doi guy,
like he grew up around feminism and feminist ideas, and
so the fact that his most notorious creation he goes
out of his way to say is explicitly male coded.
I wonder what that is like. I wonder if it
is like some like generational, Like I don't want to

seem like I insulting women by implying that which I
agree is completely misguided, and like slapstick is for people,
people fall down like. But I do wonder if there
is some like gen X disconnect happening here where it's
clear that he definitely grew up around intense feminist ideas.

His mother, I don't know how to pronounce her name, honestly,
I'm not familiar with Indonesian culture, but her name, her
first name is spelled NH, her last name is Deni,
and she and his father they got married. His father
was a diplomat, and she became a prominent Indonesian feminist novelist.

So I don't know. I mean, I don't feel comfortable
speculating why anything happened in any direction, because when Pierre
Koft gives interviews, he seems to have more of a
bone to pick with his father than his mother. So,
you know, I think it was the easier. It was
like he had an issue with his mother's feminist ideas
and wanted to repel. I don't think that that's actually

the case. It seems like he had a lot of
love for his mother. She passed in twenty eighteen, so
she also lived to see the minions. Both of his
parents did. What he says in a twenty fifteen interview
with a Guardian to promote this movie is that Minions
were not particularly inspired by his parents, because he found

his parents, as a serious novelist and a diplomat, to
not be very funny, and that he was interested in cartoons.
He was interested in humor, and it wasn't necessarily something
that was encouraged, so he says in this interview quote,
my dad said watching TV was too passive and didn't
make you think. So I found this other side. I

needed some sort of distractions, so I drew a lot,
I read a lot, and I listened to a lot
of music. But I never considered a career in the arts.
I was surrounded by people who were better than me,
but that gave me inspiration to find out how they
did it better. A diplomat isn't like a really funny guy,
and my mom's stories are biography is mostly about how
she used to live in Indonesia during the Dutch colonies,

so it wasn't really fun. I have no clue where
that humorous gene comes from, but France does have a
culture of cartoons. And then, speaking to his parents a
little later, he talks about how his kids inspire Minion's
jokes and whether they work or not. But in twenty fifteen,
so a few years prior to his mother's death, he says, quote,
my mom had the life of an artist, so I'm

living her dream a little bit, and she's super proud
of me. But my father, who is nearly ninety, it's
fair to say he's not really embracing my success. This
is not serious for him. As soon as I started
saying I really want to make movies. I'm not going
to say he never helped me, but he never encouraged
me to do this. We're not getting along that well
because he's got that little resentment about him being wrong

and not admitting it. So it's very tricky. He always
has this idea of me working in show business, meaning
that I'm strange. He never wanted me to do this.
He never wanted me to have a serious job. And
that's how the interview ends. WHOA And So I do
think it's fascinating when like you have something like The Minions,
where this like cultural symbol at this point that work

invented as and he like talks about this in the interview,
how he wasn't thinking particularly hard about The Minions indspicable
me one. He was thinking like what is like a
funny like I need minions, but I need like these
assistants for grew. But the difference that will endure the

audience is that he will know all of their names,
and now will make kids and audiences think like, oh,
they all have names. He knows their names, maybe he's
not such a bad guy. And then the only other
thing he was thinking about with the minions per this
interview is that they need to be, you know, sweet
enough that who knows their names, and they have to

be easy for kids to draw, which they definitely are. Yeah,
And that was it, And so I don't know. I
just think it is like, really really fascinating that the
son of this prominent feminist went out of his way
to say all these cruisiers are men. But it's because
he thinks men are less smart than women. I think

that there's a lot of like, ultimately he's wrong, right,
like that anyone of any gender should be welcome into
this world of slapstick. I don't understand to this day
of why he wouldn't have just said, I don't know,
whatever you want. I feel like that is the smartest
answer across children's media, or maybe just art in general.
To be like, I don't have to answer that question, Like,

I don't owe you that answer, right. I will always
think it's confusing that he did. But I'm a Pierre
co Fen defender. I don't think that he did any
of this maliciously based on how I knew he grew up.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's malicious. I think it's
more just like he has the way many people still
do a kind of narrow view of gender. And the
other thing I think is fascinating is the Minions are
just far more gender fluid or gender neutral than Pierre
gives them credit for. Yeah, they are male coded, but

we often see them in drag. Right, they're dressing up
as a woman to go to the Tower of London.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Which is like so bugs bunny coded. I can't understand it. Like, yeah,
the history of drag within cartoons is like I love
that the Minions are continuing that tradition.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
M hm in Minions to one of them dresses in
drag to pick up grew from school pretending to be
his mom.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Bob's and drag on the plane one of the greatest
Oh yeah, the Minions plan scene is like one of
the greatest sequences in comedy. It is, it just is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
It's very funny Bob wears a thong even though he's
a baby, so that's curious.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
But like, what does a baby mean in minions years
I just would say, you know, don't overthink it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Well that's true. Yeah, you're right, you're right. So there's
the many drag examples. Again, Physically, their body shape isn't
associated with any gender. They are just little tic TACs,
little pills.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
I also feel like their voices could be interpreted as
being gender neutral.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yeah, there's certainly like as far as I know, like
edited right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
So yeah, I think the minions are actually genderless icons.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Yeah, I would be happy to defer to the fan
base and this over the creator. I think that, like,
I want to believe that the creator would defer to Like,
it would be really weird and telling if you was like, no, no, no,
I'm not open to other answers, Like, I'd be curious
if someone asked him this question again ten years later.
Because it's also whatever the way that like stuff is

presented in media, it felt like that headline was presented
as a more like definitive thing than it actually was.
Were what he's saying is like, well, I always thought
about it like this for this reason, and that was
made the headline of like, right, Pierre Coffences, minions are men,
and you're just like, yes, that is what he said,

but it wasn't like I feel like it's presented as
like he was saying it with his whole chest, Like
I'd be curious to hear this conversation revisited because I
feel like the Minions should be interpreted as like the
Minions or whoever you want them to be. Yeah, they
should be, you know, open to any gender identity. They're
so special.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
I agree. Do you have anything else to say about
the Minions themsels selves?

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
The Minions themselves, I don't think so. Yeah. No, I
just I think that they're the best. I love them.
Let's see if I have anything else about them. I mean,
I have a few more things about Scarlette overkill same,
But in the primary sense, no, I think like the Minions,
I wish that they were open to any gender identity.
And I still think that that is possible because, first

of all, like the Minions are out of Puerkofan's hands
at this point. I don't mean to say that his
anymore than I feel like JK. Rowling is an easy
comp there of like that the creator's opinion, Like you
do not need to live and die by it. It's like,
if it's important to you, interpret it as you will.
But I just wanted to give more context for his
stuff because I feel like he's been presented as sort

of someone who is like, no, they're men, and like
I just don't it doesn't seem to be true. Yeah,
but that's all I have to say about the minions
other than Kevin is the best one.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
Well, but then consider Bob.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
And then I say Bob, and I'm kind of like,
grow up. I'm kind of like.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
We'll see Kevin just like doesn't really know how to
have fun. Stuart knows how to have fun. Bob knows
how to have fun. Kevin sort of like the straight man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Oh yeah, but like, how are we gonna get anything
done if Kevin isn't showing up to work. Kevin is
not pursuing fire hydrants or feral rats, He's at work. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
If I had to determine which minion I was, I
think it would be Kevin because I often am like,
all right, let's get shit done.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
But I don't think I would be Kevin, but I
like I'm drawn to Kevin. I don't even know who
I would be of the three. I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
Maybe you are Bob and so it's an interesting flip,
and that's why you and I are drawn to each other.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Wow, that's beautiful. I wish I had I liked that,
Like Bob has kind of like Kate Bosworth eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Oh yeah, what's that called when your eyes are two
different colors?

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
I forget, I forget what it's called, but I think
it is like both just like a very sweet feature
on that character, and also makes sense when you really
need people to be able to tell minions apart because
they looks so similar.

Speaker 3 (01:09:13):
Yeah. Anyway, I think that who we are and who
we are drawn to can be very different characters. That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Let's talk about Scarlet Overkill.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
So when she is first spoken about, before we even
meet her on screen, there's like a news broadcast about
villain con saying there's a new bad man in town
and that man is a woman.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Yeah. I feel like that was like a tongue in
cheek nineteen sixty eight thing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
Oh for sure, yeah, yeah, and then she's announced at
Villain Con as being the world's first female supervillain. So
the Minion world, the world that this movie takes place within,
is presum be a patriarchal place like ours.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
It doesn't seem to be like alternate timeline. It just
seems like we as people have neglected to see the
influence the Manias have had on our world.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Right, So she's rising to fame and notoriety in this
patriarchal world where villains have historically been men, and she's like, no,
I'm going to break the glass ceiling, the villain glass ceiling,
and I'm gonna be first. That's right, the first super

villain who's a woman. And she's like the favorite among everyone.
Everyone wants to work for her. The minions want to
work for her. We have that scene with the little
girl who's like you know in the bank robber family.
She's in the car and she's telling one of the
minions that she really looks up to Scarlet.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
What are the more impact full women in the plot line,
I would say, is this little girl?

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
Yeah, because she's like, wow, I want to be a supervillain.
Here's this super villain who's a woman who I can
look up to and be inspired by, and that's why
representation matters. But then we have this presentation from Scarlett
who says, like, when I first started, people said I

could never rob a bank as well as a man.
Well times change, So she faced sexist backlash when she
was you know, I guess a young woman trying to
be a villain and a bunch of men told her
she couldn't do it. Maybe women also told her she
couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Right, which is very like in line with the like
Girl Boss narrative of like other people doubted my ability
to do the same evil thing, and like it feels
like intentional enough where I mean, I don't know, because
I know that we weren't quite having that conversation now
where it was like twenty fifteen. Any woman in power

is a force of good, yeah, and so maybe it's
just like that era. But she's also being coded as
a villain. I wish we had her resume. I know
that it would be harmful to have her resume, but
I would just be curious.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
It seems like she's just stealing stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Yeah, she seems kind of like a petty criminal and
I'm like, meanwhile, there's Queen Elizabeth, like, you know, who
ends up being a hero of this story because this
movie has to play in every single theater in the world,
and you can't actually say anything overtly political.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Right, Yeah, so she is the villain of the movie.
She did face adversity, becoming the most powerful villain villain con.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
At least, so did Sheryl Sandberg's it pushing like, she
is good.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
At fighting, so you know, we see her fight off
a bunch of men and so that was impressive. We
also have see Queen Elizabeth kick some people's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
Ass, but I feel like that is actually maybe actively harmful.
Is like showing at that time a living colonizer to
be like a fun, no nonsense girl.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
It's just like, yeah, that's one of the most notorious
colonists that's alive. Like, I wish Bob had killed her.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
I tell me about it. You should have taken that
sword and chopped her head off.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
I think that scene where she's in the pub after
she has been dethroned and she's like telling stories and
drinking pints of beer and stuff like that. I was
getting very rose from Titanic vibes or she like gulps
down some beer and I almost expected her to be like,
what you think a first class girl can't drink?

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I mean I think that like devoid of any historical context.
That was like kind of a funny beat.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
H Yeah. The other thing I guess with Scarlet's character
for me is that And we've had this conver station
over and over again at this point. But in animation,
men are often designed to be whatever body shape and size,
but women, or at least the main characters who have

narrative significance in a movie who are women, often have
very you know, Western beauty standards bodies. Yeah, there's even
this like random scene in the movie where herb is
tightening her corset and she's like, must have tiny waist,
And I'm like, why is this scene in the movie.
It has nothing to do with anything, Yeah, but it

just feels like it's emphasizing the fact that she has
like a very.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Small waist, which is true. Like if I were them,
I would not be pointing out how very much you're
leading it, because I mean the whole franchise is guilty
of that, including like the design of the christed Wig character.
I feel like the most purport like the children are
a little more proportionally normal. But there are characters that

are not wildly thin in terms of like women in
this franchise, But there are never characters that are presented
as desirable or meaningful in terms of adult women that
are presented as narratively important. It's very all the same.
And that's also true in Rise of Grow, where the
most important supervillain is still very very thin.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Yes, I will say that Rise of grou has a
little bit more racial diversity than the first Minions movie
because it's almost all white characters, at least the human characters. Yeah,
in the movie. And I feel like that's pretty true
of the Despicable Me movies as well. So yeah, a

lot of like harmful tropes of animation present in this movie.
There's the i would say, queer coded stylist character who
gives Scarlet like a makeover right before she's about to
be crowned the queen. So we have that trophy character.

His name is Fabrice, not unlike Fabricio. Yes, So just
pointing that out something to think about, something to make
you think. I don't know if I have much else
to say.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
The only other thing I would say about Scarlett Overkill
that I would say is positive is that I think
it is generally good to have a woman villain, and like,
in keeping with the like I think I'm doing a
good thing, but I'm actually out of touch vibe that
Pierre Coffin had when he was like, no, the minions

are men, because I don't think women would be so
not smart, you know, Like I'm glad that there is
a woman villain and that that woman villain has a
loving partner that she also loves. I feel like that
is very rare and that you are often encouraged to

see when you do get a woman villain. That part
of why she is a villain is because she has
a loveless life and that she resents the world and
like she's getting back at the world because she doesn't
have a boyfriend, and like this movie does pretty clearly
subvert that. I honestly, the first time I saw this movie,

I remember thinking that like herb was gonna end up
being evil and like resent her and want to get
But that relationship is presented kind of matter of factly,
like where she's the dominant person in this relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
He's her minion kind of yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
I mean, even though she's a piece of shit to
everyone else, including Kevin, it is kind of rare to
see a woman villain who has like who has a
loving relationship like that is not the source of the villainy.
And you know, it is kind of like lazy to
be like, oh, it's some YadA YadA childhood something, but

I genuinely prefer that to like, I don't have a boyfriend,
so I'm going to be the Queen of Angelt or whatever,
because I feel like that it's like a common fallback on,
like a woman scorned. So I just wanted to point
that out. I don't think herb is a great character.
I like, I totally agree that like the celebrity stunt casting,
I can take care to leave it. I don't think

it's like an active hindrance to enjoying the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
But I do like that at least they didn't fall
back on so many women villains that it's like always
exciting to get one, and then I feel like occasionally
or often it's like it's because this guy didn't love me, like,
and that's not the case here, right, So that's nice.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
What is the case now that I'm thinking about it,
and maybe I'm overthinking it, but she makes a reference
to how when she was younger, she was penniless and
maybe implies that no one likes her because of that,
and that's why she's so hell bent on like being

a princess and having a crown and being royal. So
there's like a class element to it, which kind of
implies that, like, which.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
At least seems more I don't know. I mean, no
matter what the reason is, the movie is not implying
that she's right to think it, right, but at least
that's something that like, I haven't seen as much of,
Like it's rooted in her own class anxiety and feeling
of rejection on the basis of class. Which there's plenty
of villains you could put in that category two and
they all suck because they're villains. But like a woman

villain whose like root issue is class anxiety, it feels
a little less usual.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
Yeah, interesting, villain avoids some tropes.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
I think she's like a better villain than we have
too many villains in the second Minions movie, The Whole Crew, Yeah,
which I know is the point, but I mean, I
like Scarlett overkill and I also like, don't miss her
when she's trapped in ice or whatever. But yeah, I
know that she is sort of the groove stand in
for this movie because they need a person around for

it to work. Yeah, and she's fine, she's fine. They
certainly could have done much worse. And the fact that
they went with a woman in the first place, I mean,
I'm probably over rewarding them. But like in a kid's
movie with a villain, I mean, what Disney movie that
was formative for us? Could you say that for It's

weirdly like older movies like Witches and blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
Like Ursula. Yeah, that's true, there's some but as we've
pointed out on the podcast before, there's a trend of
if the protagonist is a woman, that's the only condition
where the villain would also be a woman, as if
to say, sure, a woman could not be a formidable
opponent if the protagonist was a man.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
So not true here, not because we've been aggressively told
they're all men. Yeah. So, and the fact that the
Medians they genuinely do just want the most evil boss.
They're not concerned about the gender of the boss. They
were like, oh, Scarlett over kills the best evil person
great like you know which I don't know. These movies

are not meant to shape your mind in any way,
shape or form like whatever. I don't think it passes
the Bechdel test, and I'm giving it five nipples.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
The closest thing I could come to it possibly passing because.

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):
In the car.

Speaker 3 (01:21:35):
It's in the car. Tina is the little girl in
the robber family. She says, after the bank robbery, I
tripped the alarm. I stink. Her dad says, you're still learning.
Her mom chimes in and says, your father's right, Tina,
he wasn't this good at being evil overnight? Your time
is coming. Tina doesn't respond. So at no point are women,

you know, characters who are women, are girls actually meaningfully interacting?
So I'm gonna say a.

Speaker 2 (01:22:06):
No, Yeah, I would say no. It doesn't pass the
Baxxel test. It doesn't meaningfully move the needle I think
in any direction, like I don't think this is pushing
forwards or backwards. I'm giving it five nipples. I'm going
first today. I've decided, Oh no, that's fine. I'm giving
it five nipples because I like it and it's fun.

To Me, and I'm giving one to Bob, giving one
to Stewart, I'm giving one to Kevin, I'm giving one
to Scarlet overkill It, and I'm giving one to Poucci.
And That's what I'm doing. I love them and I

can't wait to see Despicable before. Oh wait, the last
thing I wanted to say was that I really like
the Minions movies compared to the Despicable movies, because the
Despicable Me movies do something that I feel like a
lot of kids' movies do that. It's whatever the Despicable
of Me movies are predicated on grew adopting three children. Yes, fine,

adoption is a very complicated conversation. But I feel like
the Despicable Me movies have like a more traditional agenda
of like reinforcing nuclear family values, because as the movies
go on, at first it's like he's a single father
with three adopted daughters and they're very happy. But then
as the movies go on, it's like, but he needs
a wife. And Despicable of Me two and like I,

Despicable Me three can't speak to it. Haven't seen It'spicable
of Me four. He and Kristin wigwife have a baby,
and it's just like building out. That's the premise of
the fourth movies. Now there's evil baby.

Speaker 3 (01:23:47):
He already has a baby. It's Bob exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
I mean it's like that. I really do feel like
that side of the franchise grows increasingly entrenched in these
very traditional family values, which is also not where it's
coming from. It comes from a like less traditional family. Yeah,
but it grows increasingly traditional as the movies go on
in a way that just like doesn't feel whatever. A

family is a family, but it just feels like a
little like growing increasingly conservative in its values, whereas the
Minions movies are minions, bonking minions on the head, which
is literally all anyone wants anyways, So Minius movies are superior.
Minions three comes out on July fourth, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
See there, whoa yeah, God bless America. Just kidding. Well, yeah,
I'll be there, I'll see it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
I was like, anyways, we'll be there. What is your
nipple scale rating for Minions?

Speaker 3 (01:24:45):
Oh my gosh, Since I don't feel any need to
take the nipple scale seriously on this episode, because we
normally take it so seriously.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
This is silly one.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
This is the most important metric of all time. So
we normally, you know, take careful consideration, but this time
I'll give it. Why not. I'll also give it five nipples. Yeah,
and I'm giving them to Bob and I'm giving them
to his little teddy bear, Tim.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Oh, I forgot about Tim. Bob is a sweetie. I
just love them all. And also the Despicable b movies
feature like B side minions, like they for some reason
don't prominently feature the minions that we know and love,
like they're like mel Chris, who I don't know them?
Where's Kevin?

Speaker 3 (01:25:38):
Where's Kevin? Or Stewart Wor's Bob? And then in minions too,
Auto and I love Auto, Auto.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Rocks Auto has a pet rock. Oh that's right, I
love Auto. Yeah, and he has braces. I like, they're like,
how do we differentiate this minion? He has braces? Who
gave him the braces? Don't worry about it? What does
he get them off? Probably never?

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
Never? Yeah, it'll be so many years because they're immortal.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
They're like Tuck ever lad they're the Collins, like they
just do not die. And I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:13):
Yeah. Well, listeners that has been our Minions episode. Thanks
for tuning in. Thank you so much. I'm in a
great mood. We I guess have to cover the other
movies that have Minions in them. I feel like a
precedent has been set.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
I mean, if you enjoyed this episode, please let us know.
Like we've covered just yes, well, this is a great transition.
Other ways to get other episodes from us is to
go to our Patreon aka Matreon, where every month, for
five dollars a month, we cover two new movies, just
Kaitlin and myself for five dollars a month. And by

signing up, you also get access to a back catalog
of over one hundred and fifty episodes. And yes, one
of those episodes is about Despicable Me one. If you
want to hear more, please let us know because we
want to.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
Yes, we do. I have to talk about Bob as
much as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:27:09):

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):
And then you can also follow us on social media,
mostly Instagram. At this point at Bechdel Cast, you can
go to our merch store at teapublic dot com slash
the Bechdel Cast. I feel like we need some Minions merch, Jamie,
not to put you on the spot.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
But I'll get right on it. I'll get right on that.
We have Baby Grinch, like, come.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
On, come on, we have that and not minions.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Yeah, what the heck? I know it's on me.

Speaker 3 (01:27:37):
So thanks for listening, and poopie poopye. The Bechdel Cast
is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and
Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board.
Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals

by Catherine Volskrosenski. Logo in merch is designed by Jamie
Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more
information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast

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Caitlin Durante

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Jamie Loftus

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Popular Podcasts

Who Killed JFK?

Who Killed JFK?

Who Killed JFK? For 60 years, we are still asking that question. In commemoration of the 60th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy's tragic assassination, legendary filmmaker Rob Reiner teams up with award-winning journalist Soledad O’Brien to tell the history of America’s greatest murder mystery. They interview CIA officials, medical experts, Pulitzer-prize winning journalists, eyewitnesses and a former Secret Service agent who, in 2023, came forward with groundbreaking new evidence. They dig deep into the layers of the 60-year-old question ‘Who Killed JFK?’, how that question has shaped America, and why it matters that we’re still asking it today.

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.

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