Misery with Ashley Blaine Featherson-Jenkins

Super fans Jamie and Caitlin discuss Misery with special guest Ashley Blaine Featherson-Jenkins, host of the podcast Trials To Triumphs!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie,
what Caitlyn? It's me Caitlin um your number one fan?

(00:21):
Oh shit, I've listened to every episode of the Bechtel Cast.
I've read your writing, I've seen your stand up. Do
you do the Matreon too? I have access to the Matreon. Yeah,
and I've listened to all those episodes. It's only five
dollars a month with over hundred episodes of backlog. Yeah.

(00:42):
So either I'm your number one fan and and I'm scary,
or I'm just a really supportive friend I don't know,
or my co host and you're scary. I contain multitudes.
It's be so many combinations of things break my ankles,
like dare you I want a week off? How? Welcome

(01:05):
to the Bechtel Cast. That was a fun one, that
was having. Okay, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name
is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante, and this
is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional
feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping
off point, just a way to initiate a larger conversation
about representation in media. But Jamie, yea, what is the

(01:29):
Bechtel Test? Oh? Well, I'm glad you asked after all
these years. The Bechtel Test is a media metric created
by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel's sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.
It was originally created as just sort of a one
off joke examination in a comic she made in the eighties,

(01:52):
but now it is sort of used as a broad
media metric to see how people of marginalized genders are
treated in movies. So the version of the test that
we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender
with names speak to each other about something other than
a man for more than two lines of dialogue, and

(02:13):
it should be you know, a narratively impactful exchange. Do
you think when Kathy Bates talks to her female pig?
I wrote that down as like when Kathy Bates talks
to misery and they're only blinking at each other. It's
not my favorite pass, but there's an argument for it.

(02:34):
I also think that when Kathy Bates breaks someone's ankles,
it spiritually passes. That passes in spirit um. But we
have an incredible guest to help tease apart the intricacies
of what we would consider passing the factual test today.
So yes, we do. So let's get there in the room.
She's an actress and host of Trials to Triumphs podcast.

(02:58):
It's Ashley Blaine, Feather and Jenkins. Hi, Hello and welcome.
Thank you. So you brought us the movie Misery, did Yeah,
welcome to our cabin. By the way, Thank you. I
hope you feel safe. I hope you feel secure. I do.
Thank you very much, Actually I really do. Excellent. Um,
what is your relationship with this movie? Maybe the book,

(03:23):
could any anything related to this property. It's you know,
it's definitely the movie. I you know, I was born
in eighty seven, so you know Mry came out. I
believe in UM, so you know. I it was a
movie that my my family, my parents talked about and
then once I got old enough to watch it, well,

(03:43):
I probably watched it before I should have been watching it.
That's all. You should put that on the record. But
you know, I mean, I fell in love with it.
It's it's such a it's a well done film, it's
a well acted film. It is an emotion an old
film that somehow Kathy Bates still gives us moments of

(04:05):
odd levity. I don't even know levity is the word,
but she's still kind of makes you laugh. You know,
we're solving a mystery. Well we know the answer to
the mystery, but like, you know, this town is solving
a mystery. You know, it's it's got everything you could
want in a film. But yeah, I love it. I've
always like and it's one of my husband's favorite movies.
He watches it any times on TV. Okay, he's that guy.

(04:29):
Love it. Yeah, babe, getting the Room Miseries on and
you're like, wow, I feel so safe exactly. I'm like
this again, do we need to see the part where
she's taking off his feet? I don't want to see
I don't want to see the sledgehammer. I don't want
to see it. I saw that clip before I watched
the movie, so I guess so my relationship and you

(04:52):
know history with this movie. I've never read the book,
but I knew about the movie and the storage. Through
kind of cultural osmosis. I had seen the clip of
the ankle, just like with the sound. It's just like
the sound haunts me the most. So I had seen

(05:15):
that clip, and then I watched the full movie in college.
This would have been like probably fifteen years ago now,
and I hadn't watched it since, so I didn't fully remember, like,
what a good movie this is. You're right, it's like
very well, like, very well acted structurally, like from a
screenwriting point of view, good job Mr William Goldman, famous screenwriter.

(05:41):
So I was like, that guy knows what he's doing.
It's almost like he's an expert in his craft. But um, yeah,
I enjoyed this movie. I'm excited to talk about it.
I think it'll be an interesting discussion through our Bechtel
cast lens. I'm still kind of processing, Yeah, I have
a lot of questions for the room. Yes, um, Jamie,
what's your relationship with it? I also did take in

(06:05):
a lot of this movie kind of through cultural osmosis.
I watched this movie with a friend last night, and
we both very strongly remembered seeing this movie parodied in
an episode of The Animaniacs um in the nineties, and
I think that that was my operating knowledge and like
those clip shows of like I love the nineties, Like

(06:26):
I totally knew about this movie via that, and I
knew I loved Cathy Bates because she's Entitanic. Oh my gosh,
the unsingable Molly Brown herself. Yeah, Annie Wilkes, you know,
more sinkable, let's say, uh, perhaps sinkable. Um. But I
haven't seen this movie before. I watched it in the

(06:48):
early pandemic lockdown where I was just it was, you know,
chaos mode. Um. I was like, who's got it? Who's
got it worse? Right now? And I think it was
actually coming up a lot because they're like, oh, it's
we all feel like James con and misery and you're like,
oh no. Anyways, I watched it for the first time then,
and I really enjoyed it. But I wasn't watching it

(07:10):
through a beackdel cast lens. I was just watching it
for a thriller and to cathartically also see someone inside
trapped inside. Yes, So revisiting it a couple of years
later was really really interesting. And I also think this
movie rocks. I didn't realize it was directed by Rob
Reiner question Mark, it doesn't feel like but it's so

(07:34):
good that you're like, all right, Rob Reiner, I guess
that you can direct something terrifying. That's not how I
associate it. He's eclectic. Look, he's got range. Everyone in
this movie has range. And I'm very excited to talk
about it. And I was also really excited to read
what Stephen King had to say about it because we've
covered a couple. I want to say, how have we

(07:56):
just covered Carrie for Stephen King? No, we covered the
Shining covered you and Stephen King. Um, you know. I
I want to, you know, defend my fellow New Englanders.
But he's kind of all over the map when it
comes to writing female characters, and like it's so it's
I'm interested to unpack it because I feel like Annie
Wilkes spoiler alert. I think she's a really good character. Anyways,

(08:20):
Yes she rocks. Yeah, dare I say I'm rooting for her?
But that's not how you're supposed to feel. I mean,
on one hand, I resent any movie that makes me
that wants me to root against Kathy Bates. On the
other hand, I support any character who is trying to
stop male artists from making art so well, there's so

(08:46):
many fun ways to come at this movie that I
didn't like. I just at first was watching it for
like whatever is happening. I'm I'm in full support. This
is great, but like, yeah, there's a way to watch
it that is like a pair of social relationship cautionary tale.
And then my my favorite read of this movie, which

(09:07):
is from Stephen king that I wasn't aware of before
I was just doing background for this episode, was that
when he was writing the novel, which I also have
not read the novel, but I looked up the differences.
It's not too many, except oh, here's a fun one.
So in the movie, she kills the sheriff with just
like a gun. In the book, she like runs him

(09:29):
over with a tractor. She like, yeah, she like she
really I know. But Stephen king Um had substance abuse issues.
He had he had a cocaine problem for a really
long time, and when he was writing Misery, he was
thinking of Annie Wilkes as his cocaine addiction and himself

(09:52):
as the writer, and so like there was a whole
other read of this movie where Annie is like just
this representation of addiction, like keeping this like writer who
writes all these famous books. Um trapped? Yeah, fascinating. Yeah right.
I was like, I was like, all right, all right,

(10:13):
Stephen King, he got me. Hmm, yeah, I can't wait
to dive into it more. Uh shall I do the recap?
Let's do it first and foremost. Okay, So we meet
Paul Sheldon played by James con He is an author
who finishes the novel he's been working on in a

(10:37):
remote cabin in Silver Creek, which is probably in Maine,
because Stephen King sets all of his stories in Maine
in Colorado? Is this in Colorado? Okay, just kidding. I
don't know what, but it is. I guess. The Shining
is also set in Colorado. So you've got Colorado and Maine,
and those are the only two states Stephen King cares about.

(10:57):
He loves the cold. He's a wink, he really does. Actually,
I'm into it. Yes, snow related danger seems harder to
get out of, right, Yeah, yeah, it's treacherous. So Paul
celebrates finishing his novel by smoking a cigarette and drinking
a glass of champagne. Then he gets in his car

(11:19):
with the manuscript drives off. But it's snowing heavily because
he's did in the Rocky Mountains. The roads are slippery,
and he slides off the road and rolls down an embankment.
We then flashback to Paul talking to his literary agent
played by Lauren Bicall. Love that I what a treat, right,

(11:40):
what a legend? Sorry, really quick, I just wanted to
make note of any any movie of this era when
there's a car crash, you get to see the whole
car crash. They just like they just wreck a whole car.
I feel like that doesn't happen anymore. So this is
early nineties, so practical effects are pretty mu the only
option that like car crashes these days, and movies are

(12:03):
like all c g I. But yeah, they're like, well
we have to do a car, a Dominic Toretto car crash.
This is just like a car rolling down the hill
in Colorado. It was right, I don't know, it's cathartic,
just to see an old school practical car crash. Yep. Okay.
So in this flashback, Paul is talking to Lauren Bicall,
and he's explaining to her why he killed off a

(12:26):
beloved character in his famous book series entitled the Misery series,
named for the main character whose name is Misery. Basically,
he wants to get away from this series and work
on other projects. We cut back to him in his car.
He's bloody and unconscious. Someone prizes his car door open,

(12:48):
pulls him out, and carries him off. Paul then wakes
up in a bed in the home of Annie Wilkes
played by Cathy Bates. Quick question, would the men have
worked for Annie Wilkes if they existed at the time? Thoughts, Well,
since the Minions famously work for the most evil person

(13:10):
they can find, right, I guess she didn't cut the
mustard in terms of evil. There must have been someone
more evil active at that time. Who was the most
evil person in? Oh? I mean we we have we
have options. Well, okay, that's uh, that's Jamie's Minions corner
for the week. Just some food for thought. Okay, So

(13:36):
Annie Wilkes Paul is in her home. She tells Paul
that she is his number one fan. She loves all
of his books, She's read them all. She's also a
nurse and she's going to take care of him while
he recovers from this car accident in which he has
been badly injured. Both of Paul's legs are broken, as

(13:56):
well as one of his arms. She gives him pain pill,
she has like put splints on his legs. He's like, well,
why don't you take me to a hospital, and she
says the blizzard was too strong, but once the roads
are clear, I'll take you to the hospital. He also
wants to call his agent and his daughter, and Annie says, oh,
but the phone lines are down because of the blizzard,

(14:18):
so you can't. I do love that he does do
like in terms of I don't know how you would
you call it. Is this a horror movie? Is this
a thriller movie? I don't really know what the exact
genre is. I think it's a it's thriller suspense. I
would say it's in that with some horrific imagery. Yeah,
there's sure there's some overlap because I just appreciate that

(14:39):
James Connon's character, so Paul Paul, I like that he
does do everything that a person would do in this situation,
and he doesn't like do the horror movie thing where
he's like all right, and you know, just like he
does challenger at every turn in a way that made sense.
Well and maybe there's a discussion about this as far

(15:01):
as gender goes. But the way men are written in
horror movies is very different from the way women are
written in horror movies when it's like a female protagonist.
When they're written by men, they are written in such
a way where they don't use logic. Yeah, so yeah,
perhaps we'll talk about that, perhaps perhaps a little foreshadowing.

(15:24):
Um okay, So meanwhile, um Lauren Bicall calls the local
sheriff of Silver Creek. She Laured call Lauren. She Lauren
makes a bo call and she calls Buster, the sheriff,
and she's like, Hey, no one has heard from Paul,
and I know that he was there in your town,

(15:46):
So any thoughts And he's like, don't worry, I'll investigate.
We cut back to Annie and Paul an He reiterates
that she's his biggest fan and that she's been following him,
and we're like, oh. She asks about his new manuscript
and he lets her read it, but then she complains

(16:08):
to him about all the swearing in the book and
she kind of snaps. She starts yelling, she spills soup
all over him. But then she's like, oh, I'm so sorry,
and also I love you, Paul. And then we're like
double oh, done, done, done, and and we also know
that Paul has killed off the like her favorite character

(16:28):
and the I think that that is like my favorite
bit of tension in this movie is like waiting for
Cathy Bates to get to the end of the book
and then she goes nuclear. But prior to that, she
has this little episode and Paul is starting to realize, oh,
she might not be entirely stable. Meanwhile, Buster, the sheriff,

(16:50):
is looking into Paul's possible disappearance. He is near Paul's car,
which is now completely covered in snow. Um so the
sheriff misses it. He doesn't see it. Also, the Sheriff's
his wife, Virginia. I just want to get her because
she's an iconic character. She's the best. I okay, I

(17:12):
don't like that this movie is also making me root
for a cop and his deputy, but I really I
found their on screen relationship very fun to watch, so sweet.
I love how she was like, was she about to
jerk him off in the car or something? And then
he's like, we're at work. I was like, all right,

(17:33):
this is this is good horny representation. Good for them
because at first you don't know they're married, and she's
like putting her hand on his leg and we're like,
oh no, what is about? What is inappropriate? Yeah? And
then she's like and then he and then Busters like, babe,
when you're in the car, you're not my wife, you're
my deputy. And it's like, Okay, they're married, still inappropriate

(17:56):
when they're on the job. I actually don't know whether
that comes from like even King or William Goldman or both,
but I just like those moments of levity are so fun. Like,
I just I love Virginia. I wish we got more
of Virginia. You know, after Buster is We're longer with us?
Where's the Virginia spinoff series? This movie has gotten a

(18:18):
lot of spinoffs, but all of them have to do
with Annie Wilkes, which I guess makes sense. Lizzie Kaplan
played her on a TV show that I did not watch.
I did not even know that. Yeah, she plays like
the young Annie Wilkes getting in Yeah. Yeah, so, um,
I don't know. I didn't watch it. But and then

(18:39):
it was also a Broadway show starring Laurie Metcalfe. And
she wanted Tony for it, which also sounds pretty good.
I had no idea there was so much Misery content
out there, the Misery expanded universe, Like, don't rule out
the Virginia story. You mean the m C you the Misery,
Misery Cinematic Kid exactly? Awesome, awesome, Okay. So Annie continues

(19:05):
to be very creepy. She fawns over Paul's new book. So,
here's something that was confusing to me. The newest Misery
book in his Misery series has just been released and
is being sold a bookstource. So Annie gets a copy
of that. So she's reading that and his manuscript. So
when she's talking about like what she's reading, I was

(19:25):
never quite clear if it was his published book or
his unpublished manuscript. She's reading both concurrently, it seems, So
that's happening. And then Annie finishes the new book, the
published one, and learns that Paul has killed off the
Misery character, which absolutely devastates Annie. She lashes out. She

(19:47):
says she can't be around him, she needs to leave,
and she also reveals to him no one knows that
he's there. She never called his agent or daughter like
she said she did. And he's like even more isolated now,
so and he drives off, and Paul is trapped in
her house with two broken legs and he can't walk,

(20:09):
so he crawls out of bed, but oh no, he
is locked in his room. So the next day and
he comes back and she's like, I know how will
solve this. God showed me the way. You're going to
burn this manuscript. And she knows this is the only copy,
and she also starts dumping lighter fluid on him, so
he has no choice but to burn his manuscript. Yeah,

(20:33):
her like just being the super fan and knowing all
this information that like she's like no, because like, oh,
it's just so scary. It's so scary. It's just like
a number of times in the movie, she uses her
like super fandom knowledge of him against him because he's
like he tries to be like, well, there's a bunch

(20:53):
of copies floating around publishers, and she's like, you said
on an interview eleven years ago that you only you
don't make a copy bees because you're superstitious. So I
know that this is the only copy, and I'm making
you burn it. And he's like busted. It's like meeting
the person who edits your Wikipedia or you're You're like, no,
not you're Wiki, You're you're Wiki feet page uh and

(21:15):
and they want to kill you. It's it's so good
in the book, I guess that, um, And I was like,
this is like an interesting I guess. I don't know
what I prefer. I think I prefer the movie. In
the book, there is more than It's like a copy
of the book does survive, and he when he escapes
at the end, he publishes the original copy he wrote

(21:36):
and it becomes a big hit. He doesn't rewrite it.
I think I like it better when he rewrites it.
And it's about ptsd s. Yeah, I don't know. Okay,
So Paul has burnt his manuscript and then Annie sets
him up in a wheelchair with a desk, a typewriter,
and expensive paper so that he can write a new manuscript,

(21:56):
one where Misery isn't actually dead, and one where he's
paying tribute to Annie for saving his life and nursing
him back to health. And he's like, okay, but I
can't write on this paper. It smudges, which is just
an excuse to get her to leave, and which upsets
Annie and it makes her feel like he doesn't appreciate her,

(22:19):
so she storms off to go get this other type
of paper. While she's gone, Paul picks up a bobby
pin that has been left on the floor and uses
it to unlock the door to his bedroom. But, like
he does in his books, I love I love that sequence.
He's like, well, it does work. That's one of my
favorite sequences. It's great. Yeah, but I guess the front

(22:44):
door to the house is locked from the outside, so
he can't get out. So he's going around the house
trying to find a way to escape the telephone, like,
she has disabled the telephone, so he can't even make
a call. He hears her coming back, so he scrambles
back to his room relocks the door with a bobby pin,
just in the nick of time. Meanwhile, Paul's car is

(23:06):
finally found the Like area. Law enforcement thinks Paul is
dead in the woods somewhere, but Buster, the sheriff, doesn't
think so, so he keeps searching. And then you get
that amazing scene with him in Virginia or Virgins on
the phone being like, I don't know where he is.
He's probably out cheating on me, and she's like the
least professional person in the world. I love Virginia. Yeah, okay.

(23:33):
So then, at Annie's insistence, Paul starts writing a new manuscript,
and he doesn't approve at first, so she makes him
start over. He begins a new version, which Annie loves,
and then Paul is like, oh, well, you have dinner
with me tonight. Annie. He's clearly, you know, like cooking
up another scheme, which is that he puts the pain

(23:55):
meds that he has been stockpiling in her glass of
wine to drug her. But oh crumbs, she spills her
glass of wine and his plan doesn't work. It's so good,
it's I love this movie. So then Paul keeps writing
this book. Annie is reading each new chapter as he

(24:16):
finishes it. She's loving it. Some time passes, I don't
really know how much. I'm thinking, like a couple of
weeks or so, enough to like get him a little
bit more healed up, and she's getting sad because, oh,
she loves him, and she knows that he doesn't love
her back. And his book is almost done and his
legs are getting better, so soon he will have no

(24:38):
reason to be there anymore. And then Annie pulls out
a gun and says something about how she thinks about
using it sometimes, and we're like, the steaks are getting high.
I don't do that. That monologue is like, so we'll
talk about it, but it's like it's it's just great. Yeah.

(25:00):
Then Paul finds a bunch of newspaper clippings that suggests
Annie has killed a lot of people, including her husband,
other nurses, a bunch of babies at the maternity ward
of the hospital. She doesn't really discriminate who she'll kill,
really anyone, it seems, so Paul is really like, I

(25:23):
need to get the funk out of here. But then
she drugs Paul and when he wakes up, she has
strapped him to the bed and she basically intends to
keep him trapped there forever. Then we get the moment
that I believe the movie is best known for, which
is when she takes a sledgehammer to both of his
ankles so that he can never get away. You can

(25:48):
monologue to Oh, it's so good she I mean she
wants this is the only fun fun fact from the
IMDV page. Um, this is the only so Cathy Bates
wont and ask for playing Annie Welks and it's the
only Stephen King movie nominated that's ever actually one an
oscar No kidding, Yeah, I mean we'll deserve He also wrote,

(26:11):
I mean, he wrote, you would think Shawshank Redemption would
have won something. That's what I say. They. I guess
that they got snubbed across the board. I forget that
Shawshank Redemption is a Stephen King thing. Yeah yeah, yeah, Wait, Jamie,
did you say a scene that you can feel similar
to Kman saying sound that you can feel the best

(26:31):
thing ever made the AMC commercial? You don't, I would
say when it comes to Annie welkes cabin, heartbreak does
not feel good in a place like that. Somehow heart
break feels bad in a place like Annie welks cabin. Yeah,
because not only is your heartbreaking, so are your ankles.
That's true, ys, your ankles and your will to live? Wow? Yes, okay,

(26:58):
so he his ankles are badly broken. Um. Then Annie
goes back into town and Sheriff Buster sees her and
he's like, hmmm, hang on a minute, there's something peculiar
about this any person. Meanwhile, Paul is back at the
cabin and he's like, well, I guess this is my
life now Annie comes back home and puts Paul in

(27:20):
her basement, and then Sheriff Buster comes over to Annie's
house and wants to look around. He discovers Paul in
the basement, but just then Annie murders him with a
murders buster the sheriff with a shotgun, and she's about
to kill both Paul and herself, but to save himself,
Paul is like, no, no, no, Annie, I I do

(27:41):
love you and and I want you to help me
finish this book. So there's a sequence where he's finishing
the book. She's all happy and they're gonna celebrate, and
he needs his champagne and his cigarette and a match
to light the cigarette. But he has when he was
in the basement, he had procured a canister of lighter fluid,

(28:05):
and so when she goes to get the champagne, he
dumps the lighter fluid all over his manuscript and burns it.
And she's like, oh my god, what the hell. And
then there's a big scuffle there, you know, violently fighting
with each other, and it's it's brutal. I mean that
I always um surprised again by how and she comes

(28:26):
back to life at one point, oh, it's just little yeah,
And it finally culminates in Paul killing Annie, and then
we cut too sometime later, he has obviously been found
and rescued. He's made a Lauren Bicall. He made a
Lauren Bicall and got to safety and his ankles have healed.

(28:48):
He's able to walk again, and he meets with Lauren
Bicall and he has a new book, and also he
talks about he basically, you know, he describes his PTSD
where he while he knows that Annie is dead, he's
still like sees her on and he's kind of tormented
by the thought of of her in general, the concept

(29:10):
of a brunette. And then at the end and the end,
like a server comes up to him and she's like, Hi, Paul,
I'm your biggest fan. And we're like, oh, and that's
the end of the movie. So let's take a quick
break and we will come right back to discuss. And

(29:36):
we're back. Wow, where where shall we start the discussion? Actually?
What what jumps out to you? I first want to
start with just I did some research too, and I
thought it was just this is kind of an aside,
but I thought it was crazy how many people that
this film was offered to. That wasn't James Cohn or

(29:59):
Cathy Bay Yeah? Wa who? So the part of Paul Sheldon,
who ended up being played by James Cohn, was offered
to literally the names are endless him William Hurt twice.
They offered it to him twice, okay, and he declined both,
but they came back, We're like, are you sure, William.

(30:19):
I guess he was like, no. Kevin Klein, Michael Douglas,
Harrison Ford, Dustin Hoffman, Robert de Niro, Al Pacino, Richard Dreyfuss,
Jene Hackman, and Robert Redford. All of these people said no.
And I guess, oh, and Warren beat he was interested
in it but wanted to like change some stuff with

(30:39):
the character. And I guess they were like, Warren, we
don't have time for all this. Do you want to
do the movie or not? And he was like, no,
actually I don't. And so I was like, I'll just
keep doing Dick Tracy. Yeah, yeah, and and then and
then he eventually had to literally drop out. Officially. I
guess he used the Dick Tracy as kind of you
know the reasoning for that, but JA, I don't know

(31:01):
how it got to James con But I don't know
if they were like, listen, James, we've reached out to
four hundred people. Are you down to do it all
more famous than you? Yeah? And James was like yeah.
At the time, like I imagine it was like super simple.
He was like yeah, like how are you shooting for
a month? I can do that, like, and then it
became this amazing movie. And then Andy Wilkes was offered

(31:24):
to Angelica Houston, which is like amazing. And Bette Midler
both turned it down. And Bette Midler is she said
publicly that she's deeply regretted the decision to turn down
the character. Well she was busy prepping for hocus Pocus. Yeah,

(31:45):
But I just like that as like a just an
entry point, like I said, on the side, I guess
just because it's such an iconic film and so many
people turned it down. I love hearing those stories where
it's like it was obviously exactly who it was supposed
to be. It was supposed to be James Connon in
in Cathy Bates, but it could have been so many

(32:09):
other people. Wild to think about, and I just think
it's like wild that um, I just can't get over
the fact that this is a Rob Reiner movie on
on top of everything else, and then this is like
Rob Reiner and William Goldman collaborate. I think back to
back doing this and they had just done the Princess

(32:31):
Bride adaptation together three years before, and then they're like, okay,
change of pace, what if we did Misery? And both
of those movies are so iconic, it's like it's wild incredible.
So my as I said, I'm still kind of like
processing this movie because I do think there are a

(32:52):
number of ways to look at it's um. Yes, I
was kind of initially struck by the thrillers of this era,
of which there are several where women are the scary person,
the captor, the abuser, you know, like the the villain

(33:15):
of the movie, who are often targeting men. Not always
you've got like single white female, um where it's two women.
But if you're thinking about like Fatal Attraction as another
one we've covered on the show and the and the
woman has always killed at the end, yes, yea, so
she she's punished, and so I'm trying to think of

(33:38):
it where I'm like, is this sort of just like
a like a screenwriting like creative choice, where writers are
thinking of ways to subvert situations and expectations, because statistically,
in real life it's men who are more often abducting
people and abusing them in and being scary and creepy.

(34:03):
So is this just like or a writer's way of saying, oh,
what if we you know, what if it's a twist,
what if it's a woman this time? Or is it
like male writers villainizing women because of sexist reasons? Is
it something else? Is it all of the above. I

(34:23):
I'm very curious about creative choices, like this is what
I'm saying, and like, what is the what are the
implications of that? What are the motivations behind making choices
like that? You know, I think that media has an
entertainment has kind of brainwash society into being really into

(34:47):
and intrigued by, you know, the unhinged quote unquote woman.
You know, there's something I think it's because, you know,
societal norms tell us that women are hinged. We're not unhinged.
We are as supposed to have it together and take
care of the family and be the wives and the

(35:08):
mothers and whatever, the homemakers. You know, obviously, this is
a very antiquated view, but I'm just you know, as
like a blanket statement as far as like the way
society sees women. I mean, yeah, those are the expectations
society has for women. And Andy Wilkes understands that too
and like leverages it against people, which I kind of

(35:28):
for sure, But I think that this movie definitely played
to that. It played to the interest that society and
consumers of entertainment are really that are really into the
like you said, the shock of like, oh this is
something different. This lady's unhinged, she's she's you know, she

(35:50):
doesn't have it together, and she's scary and creepy. And
also there's a thing about women being obsessive. There's a
thing about that. I think that's that's a major theme
in this film and in the book is it's it's obsession.
And I think when we when we tend to see
obsession in media and entertainment, it's typically the woman is

(36:14):
obsessed with the man, like specifically obsession. I don't think
you see us often the other way. You see it
very often with a woman being obsessed with a man
or a man's situation, or if there's a man who's
obsessed with a woman. We've talked like the stalker, like
how men, especially in movies of this era, are like

(36:34):
are often stalking the person that they want to be with.
But it's not framed as a bad thing. It's a
framed as like he's going for it, he's gonna win
her over. Yes, yes, that's what I mean. It's it's
cloaked in a different way. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I
was thinking about this as well. I think a good

(36:54):
kind of like if I mean, I'm sure that there's
some crossover between our listener and her listeners as well.
But friend of the cast Karina Longworth did a wonderful
series on the erotic eighties. This is technically a nineties movie,
but it feels like an eighties movie came up nine.
It's a cusp, but that sort of examines a lot

(37:15):
of these issues and a lot of the cultural stuff
because because yeah, this is like the Fatal Attraction era
where it feels like there was this uptick in designing
these female villains who are I feel like, in a
lot of cases highly like reclaimable and have a lot
of layers that you can go back and find amazing

(37:35):
stuff in. But at the time, feel more like a
cultural anxiety about women come to life, where you know,
we talked about in our Fatal Attraction episode a couple
of years ago how Glenn Close's character is like you
can't have it all and like they're like and anxieties
around women aging, which I think is also present in

(37:56):
Annie's character, and just any woman who is other by society, Um,
whether it's by how she looks or how old she is,
or like the fact that she doesn't have kids, whatever
it is. Um, it feels like people are always, especially
in this era, which I think is interesting, always looking
to make that the most evil thing that's ever happened,

(38:17):
and have it happened to such a nice guy? Uh,
which is and I love. I kept writing down in
my notes Paul as definitely not Stephen King's on a
little trip, but I But culturally it makes me think
about just when I was working on the Kathy podcast,
just reading about women's media in the eighties in general

(38:41):
skewed so far in this direction. It seems like, partially
in response to um, you know, the seventies were a
pretty progressive time with exceptions, but like a more progressive
time for women and women's rights than really any other
time up till that point. And then the eighties and
early nineties were just a period of regression and fucking

(39:05):
Reaganomics and just like completely trying to repackage the collective
progress people had made and turn it into a consumer product.
And it feels like these characters and these women are
are a big part of that, of are a big
part of like, oh, you think you wanted to like
live on your own, you think you wanted to like

(39:25):
not live in this you know what is considered like
this normal nuclear thing. Well guess what Annie Wilkes is
like that and she's a murderer or like, right, this
is what happens to a liberated woman who you know,
lives on her own and doesn't have children, she'll become
a murderer. Which I don't know if that like wholesale

(39:45):
applies to this story, but it's like they're there. There's
definitely Annie Wilks is like a part of Trent. But
that's part of why I like this movie. It's like
that reading is right there. And then or also if
you you know, happen to come across this interview that
Stephen King did in two thousand and six you can
view the character in a completely different way because she's, uh,

(40:06):
you know, the addiction monster come to life. But also
why do you make the creative choice to make the
addiction monster of you know, a woman who is over forty? Like,
there's so many questions, right, there are certainly implications there. Yeah,
I don't know. This is just like something that I

(40:26):
find endlessly fascinating in terms of, like, we have certain
societal and cultural expectations of women too, yeah, to be
the ones to like hold things together and you know,
be domesticated and and and stuff like that. So to
subvert that and in this version of the subvert this

(40:50):
version of the subversion, what Kate swish Um, you have
completely quote unquote on ranged women who are obsessive and
stalkers and you know, abductors and murderers. And not to
say this never happens in real life, but it's also

(41:15):
far less likely that it would be a woman than
a man doing these things. So yeah, I just like,
I still don't know quite how to process it. I
don't know. I guess what I will because I also
am actively having like which I feel like does speak
to how good the movie and ostensibly the book is that, like,

(41:39):
it's not a very easily answered question where I guess
that like Stephen King did pull from a real person
to build out this character, a nurse who it sounds
sort of adjacent to um munch hous since by proxy,
like she would make children sick and then vote unquote

(42:00):
cure them but couldn't always cure them, and um, I
was responsible for a number of children dying on her watch,
and so like he's pulling from something it's like not
happening in a vacuum, which I feel like is helpful,
but I don't know, like, yeah, there are just like
so many, so many reads of it, and well, okay,

(42:23):
so if we're talking about Annie, I feel like it
is there are a lot of tropes that we're talking
about at play where I feel like her her body
is not like directly commented on, but it feels like
the camera comments on her body a lot. It feels
like the use of the pig is a bizarre roundabout

(42:44):
like joke at her expense. And I was struggling with
because it's like, this isn't something that the movie is
like outright telling you in a way that you might
expect a movie of this era to do of just
like absolutely making a joke of a woman's body that
isn't like rigidly thin, which did happen in the original

(43:06):
reviews of this movie, Like Kathy Bates's body was commented
on extensively and extremely rudely and I don't even want
to quote it here. Not surprising, right, oh, like people
had an issue with her body type. No, they just
were like, you know, the way that the character was described,
it was like leading with like a middle aged, overweight

(43:29):
woman like that. I think a good comparison here is
have you both seen ten Cloverfield Lane. Yeah. Yeah, it's
like such a similar premise, but the it's a gender
swapped premise and from like thirty years later or whatever. Um.
But John Goodman is trapping Mary Elizabeth Winstead in the
basement and she can't escape, and the twist is different,

(43:51):
but it's like kind of a similar premise in that
it's like a middle aged person who's not rigidly thin
is trapping someone in their house. But the reviews for
ten Cloverfield Lane and the way that John Goodman's character
is talked about is very different than Annie Wilkes. I mean, granted,
that the plot goes in a different direction. But I it,

(44:12):
I don't know. I was thinking a lot about ten
Cloverfield Lane when I was doing this watch right, But
that's all. That's just very indicative of the way society
views women's bodies versus men's bodies, where like, if a
woman is a villain in a story, consumers of that
story will be like, yes, she's a villain because she's

(44:35):
like not traditionally beautiful, or like, you know, just any
any number of awful comments like that. But I think
it's it's not a coincidence that an actor like Kathy
Bates was cast to play Annie, and considering the other
actors who were considered Angelica Houston and Bette Midler amazing actors,

(44:56):
extremely talented, but these are three women who are not
it are like classically beautiful by Western beauty standards. So
I think it's very deliberate that again, like someone like
Kathy Bates's cast to play Annie because yes, she she's
an older woman. Her body type is not a Victoria's

(45:16):
secret model type. You know. It's the way that like
most famous, like a list actress, is your female actors
look a very certain way. Yeah, it feels like that's
what they were trying to say, like this is what
unhinged looks like, Like this is this is what it
looks like to us? Does it look like that to

(45:38):
you audience? Like it almost is like subconsciously they're trying
to convince us that like this is the way it
would look in reality, this is what this type of
captor would look like. This is what and um, again
it's it's not really in your face, you know, it's
kind of like it's subtle in a way, but but

(46:01):
I agree, I think it's it was it was still
very intentional and be able to decide what is it saying?
And is that okay? That that's what I'm saying. You know.
It feels like the subtext is like, how could this
woman possibly be happy, normal and well adjusted? Just like
of course she has you know, of course she has this.
And at first, you know, her backstory, I thought just

(46:25):
about the children at the hospital and her being a nurse,
you know, kind of her past life. At first I
looked at it as like, oh, that's really good, like
character development, backstory, Like that's really helpful and useful. But
then when you think about it, it's also like what
is that saying to Like, It's like her backstory is

(46:46):
kind of like did children have she someone who children
had to die on her watch and she had to
have this horrific backstory in order to be this person
who's now doing this. You know. Yeah, it's it just
like introduces so many questions I do I appreciate. I
just happened to watch Fatal Attraction the other night at
a hotel Uma having a normal one. Yeah, I was

(47:11):
at a Laquinta. Uh yeah, yeah. It was a Continental
breakfast with the wet sausage that they serve at continental breakfasts. Um.
But I was taking in Fatal Attraction, so it's fresh
in my mind as well. And I do feel like
you'd get more background about Annie Wilks than I expected.

(47:34):
And I feel like you do get more background on
Annie Wilkes than you do for your average quote unquote
unhinged woman, which is good. And I would argue you
get more background on Annie than you do on Paul
really in terms of like what her history is and
her history as uh, you know, horrific, but we know
about it and um, and that does help in a way.

(47:58):
And I also a big thing unless I missed it,
so correct me if I'm wrong. They do not attribute
a specific mental illness to Annie within the movie, Is
that right? Not that I've noticed now that also, I
know we've talked about this abiliit tize, But that also
I was relieved because I feel like often, I mean,

(48:21):
you could argue the opposite and say like, oh, you know,
we're implying that women are you know, like fundamentally fucked up.
But we have you know, we have Virginia, we have
Lauren Bocall. We know that that's not the ethos of
this world. It's Annie specifically. Um. But I just always
I feel like thrillers are so as a genre, are

(48:42):
so guilty of perpetuating stereotypes about specific mental illnesses, and
it's always like, uh, you know, the beginning of Midsummer,
they're like, bipolar disease killed the family and ship like that.
I just always appreciate when there is a diabolical character

(49:02):
when a text does not attribute that to to a
mental illness, because it just like I always does so much.
But I mean, people have certainly speculated around Annie Welkes's character,
but I don't think it's ever mentioned in the book
or the movie, it's just like, well, this is just
what she's like, this is just who she is. Yeah,

(49:22):
because that always herself. That always ends up villainizing specific
mental illnesses, and I would argue just mental illness in general,
and um and then yeah, Like again, the way that
she is presented visually is the way that, like queer coding,
a villain demonizes queerness. I think that the way that

(49:45):
she's not even coded, just like the way that she
is presented visually, ends up villainizing a number of attributes
a person can have, as far as like age and
body type and things like the at And then there's
there are parts where she's like, oh, Paul, I love
you and you're perfect and you're so brilliant, but you

(50:07):
would never love someone like me. She says something like well,
I'm you know, I'm a I'm a nobody, you know,
I'm not this like famous writer like you. But I
think that there's also subtext there where it's like, well,
you know, I'm not this young, beautiful, you know, traditionally
beautiful woman. Yeah, she's very insecure. She's very insecure as

(50:28):
it pertains to a lot of areas in her life.
I think especially to her her looks and how she
comes off, and you know, she's very in her head
about all of it and that and that is ultimately
what Paul Sheldon is able to kind of use in
order to get his way and trying to escape the situation.

(50:49):
He plays on that. It's like, okay, she surest I'm
going to play into No, you are beautiful, No, I
do love you know this, this paper is great. Of course,
I'm grateful for everything you've done for me. Like he
plays in to boosting her self esteem and her self
confidence in order to get what he wants, which also
feels like kind of a gendered thing to me. Yeah,

(51:11):
the way that, like, I don't know, like a lot
of women are characterized in movies where they just like
need a lot of like emotional reassurance and because women
are so emotional and you know, I don't know, I
don't know if I'm articulating that well, but no, I
see what you mean. I mean, it's like again, it's

(51:32):
I think this movie's strength and what makes it like
a little challenging to have a discussion about is like
there's so many different ways to read it where I think, like,
for sure he's playing on her insecurities and and like
you're just kind of getting at of like how how
it like Annie is a very smart character. She like

(51:55):
catches him at every turn, and my penguin always faces
do souths first of all, a woman knowing her cardinal directions,
that's feminism, that's final way of feminism. Which way is
the penguin facing? So like, but she she catches him

(52:15):
and all this ship, she's very observant, like there he
should not survive this ordeal, right, but except for when
he is manipulating her insecurities about herself and manipulating her
crush on him and her obsessive nature around him. And
then all of a sudden, it's like logic goes out
the window and she is not this hyper observant character

(52:38):
that we know she is. And that does feel a
little pointed um. But and you can come at that
from the super fan perspective where I kept trying to
like flip it in my mind for him, like I
guess like there is a fun I don't know, Like
when I was watching it, I was like, oh, what
if this happened to like someone writing an m c
U movie and they were just kidnapped by one of

(52:59):
those guys on Twitter. You mean a misery cinematic universe. Yeah, yeah,
and the misery cinematic universe. So but like what if
Jeff Loveness was it was kidnapped by and by someone
on Twitter, and like how would that play out? And
but but which uh? And that mental exercise confirmed to
me that it is kind of a gendered dynamic between

(53:20):
the two of them that, like, you know, when she
because we are conditioned to believe that this character is
not going to be loved in the way she wants.
When she receives that kind of attention, everything we know
about her goes out the window because she is receiving affection.
There's also like there are certain aspects of her character

(53:45):
that and let me know if I'm way off here,
but there there are things that like, you know, she
lives on a farm, She's surrounded by farm animals. She
drives like I want to say, like a jeep Cherokee,
like the and like the way the way she dresses
is like all this sort of masculine. There's certain things
about her character that are more kind of markers of
traditional masculinity. There are implications there where it's like, oh,

(54:09):
any any woman who kind of presents in a more
masculine way something's wrong with her that also ends up
getting demonized by by this movie. But then also she
is kind of like beloved in her community because so
that's like the other side of it is like she
plays on this is something I really like, is like
she plays on people's expectations about her constantly in order

(54:34):
to be like, I don't know, I just have been
in the middle of reading a book about female serial
killers and uh just having a normal week everyone um
staying in a laquintation. Look, I have no plans to
do anything. I'm not plotting. But but a common like

(54:57):
thing that specifically women who killed do is like play
on people's expectations of them of like, oh, I'm you
know me, I'm I'm just uh you know, I'm a
middle aged lady. I raised pigs on a farm. What
do you mean, right, which her community buys completely even
though she's a well documented murderer. Every everyone has a

(55:20):
scrap book full of her murders. Um, So it isn't
until busters like wait a second, isn't that the murder
lady like that? That that it comes up Like so
she does she like plays this whole community based on
society's like go to of underestimating what she could possibly
be capable of, positive or negative. And she even like

(55:43):
she even gets Paul at the beginning where she like
is she's got him in a bed. She says, you know,
I'm a nurse, and he believed I mean, and she
I guess she is technically a nurse. She's a bad one,
but but like he is her job, but he buys it.
He buys that, like, oh, she's just like this nice lady.
She's going to take care of me, because that is

(56:05):
like what you would be conditioned to believe she's going
to take care of me. Um, there's no reason to
mistrust her, right right, I have to look up this. Okay,
So the female not to give up female serial killer
a shout out, but it reminded me a lot of
the same kind of the book calls her the giggling
grandma Nanny Doss. But the deal with Nanny Doss, she

(56:28):
was in them. She was kind of like the first
like the first woman serial killer to be like on
TV in the nineteen fifties. Um, but she was a
middle aged too slightly over middle aged woman who had
killed four or five of her husband's in a row,
but she presented as like, I'm just a sweet lady,
what do you mean, And like she was received in

(56:50):
the press like she's not really very well remembered. I
didn't know she existed, but like she's just presented as
kind of like a joke. Even on TV. She's committed
five murders and everyone's like, look at this grandma who
can't stop poisoning her husband, and you're like, this is horrible, right,
But it's like, but she built this whole media image
of herself based on people's you know, assumptions to underestimate her.

(57:13):
And even when she was like outed as a outed
as a murderer. I don't know if that's the right passing,
But even when she was like, you know, found to
be a murderer of a ton of people, people were
still kind of like, ha, ha, isn't this like weird
and gross that this older woman is doing this? And
you're like, it's kind of gross that anyone's doing the
fire Maybe not good day. So there the way that

(57:38):
like society tends to de sexualize mother's, like oh, you
know a woman who is like who is like raising
a family and like raising children and and again like
aging women. It feels to me like those sort of
like stereotypes of what we expect like a mother to

(57:59):
look like are given to Annie, and that makes her
less threatening at first, That makes her seem like a
not formidable opponent. You know. That's why James Conn you know,
Paul at the beginning is like, Oh, I am in
good hands, Like she's a nurse. She's this like middle
aged woman who seems like she's taking care of me.

(58:22):
She puts splints on my Also, the like prosthetics that
they put on his legs to make his legs look
like broken and bruise and everything like that are so icky. Um,
but yeah, like he has no reason not to trust
her at first, based solely on just kind of like

(58:44):
societal expectations of women in kind of caregiver roles that
we perceive to be as like very unthreatening because of
like gender norms and these societal expectations. So I still
don't know what to make of the from a like
narrative point of view and from like a feminist point
of view, but it's interesting. I feel like there's a

(59:07):
lot of ways to come at it because it's like
they're also I was like, I you know, I was
like I had to admit to myself obviously you know,
anti murder, but brave, brave of you, thank you so much.
But in the world of this movie, like it is
a little bit cathartic to just like as an idea

(59:28):
to have this woman who is like That's why I
really liked the speech where she's like, I know you
don't love me, Like, don't bullshit me. I know that
you're like lying to me. I know that you go
for these you know, like Hollywood type girls or whatever
it is she says. And then to see someone clearly
articulate that of like you're full of ship and then

(59:49):
break their ankles, that's, uh, you know, feminist, Like is
that a hashtag feminist win? I don't know, but like
seeing that as because you can look at that interaction
as like, oh, she is the unhinged woman, and like
it's implied that a woman who looks like her and
as her age could not possibly be loved, or you

(01:00:10):
can look at it as like here's a woman who
has been told her whole life because of how she
looks that she is not going to have the life
that she wants because of her gender and because of
how she looks and as she ages because of her age,
and like just taking out that frustration on someone who's
full of shit, and like that's also really fun. I

(01:00:32):
don't know. I have a quote from Stephen King um
and he's using I mean, we are it's hard, especially
when you're reading stuff about this movie too. We want
to be mindful about um language around mental health. So
I'm quoting Stephen king here, but he's he says that
Annie quote may seem psychopathic to us, but it's important

(01:00:55):
to remember that she seems perfectly sane and reasonable to herself,
heroic in fact, a beleaguer women trying to suffer in
a hostile or is trying to survive in a hostile
world full of cocka duty brats unquote cock Wait what
did he say? Cocka duty? Cocka duty. I think he's
just like quoting how Annie talks, of course, how she

(01:01:15):
like uses all these weird I don't think Stephen King
minds swearing. I did really laugh at the part where
Annie gives him the typewriter for the first time and
she's like, fix your book and he just types fuck
over and over and over. I was like, yeah, been there,

(01:01:37):
which feels like I was like, god, yeah, Stephen King
loves uh. Every time I worry, I'm like, oh am,
I writing myself too much into this. And then you're like, well,
so many Steven, like every Stephen King, not every, but
a lot of them have like I'm a writer and
writing is hard, Like that's the Shining and Misery. Well,
speaking of the Shining, I think we'd be having a

(01:01:59):
different conversation if every single one of Stephen King's books
and like movie adaptations followed this formula of like unhinged
woman ab ducts man and is scary, and all women
are scary and murderers. But something like The Shining, which
we covered again a few years ago, is about a

(01:02:20):
writer who is a man. He's the one who becomes
increasingly more unstable and scary and abusive and murdery and
his wife, his wife is the victim here and like
so where you're rooting for her and she's she's the
character in that story who you know, we're like rooting

(01:02:42):
for her survival and to escape this very abusive man.
So there's enough, you know, like variety in Stephen King's
work that this just seems like an example of, oh, well,
sometimes there are scary women. This is just a story
about one of them, and I'll shoehorn another podcast recommendation

(01:03:07):
in here You're wrong about just in an episode where
Sarah Marshall, friend of the cast, is talking about UM
serial killers and how serial killers are sort of characterized
by gender or or race or by does any attribute
they have, and how the white male serial killer UM,
while historically the most incompetent of them all, UM, like

(01:03:29):
even in serial killing UM, it's still very much like
there's a fucking Jeffrey Dahmers series that just came out,
Like there's it's still the white male serial killer. And
that is too. I feel like I'm sounding very scary.
I was with Sarah and she gave me the book
about serial killers and we watched Fatal Attracted together. It
was all for her, Jamie shure sounds like a cover up.

(01:03:51):
I'm not going to kill anybody. I swear we were
at the Lakiza together. Definitely not dismembering a body. Also,
I left this out of the recap, but there's what
I felt was like a very clever thing for Annie
to do when when Sheriff Buster comes over to look
around her house. She fabricates the story of like, oh, yes,

(01:04:13):
I am such a huge fan of Paul Sheldon, and I,
you know, I received this message from God that I
should carry on his work now that he is presumed dead.
And that's why I have this typewriter and this Paul
Sheldon manuscript because I wrote it, you know, Like she's
like diabolical, but like the way she covers her tracks

(01:04:38):
is like, I don't know, I just thought that was
very clever. And so she is a very like we said,
she's a very smart character. She's not incompetent. She just
does get and she had a good strategy. Like the
strategy was actually pretty solid. Yeah, she and she kept
him there. How long was he there? I would guess
at least a month, Like it's what do you mean

(01:05:00):
know the exact time, Like how long he's I don't think,
so it seems like a while because they had to
do some like montages of like he writes a book.
I don't know. Yeah, I think it's more than a month.
I don't know how. I don't think it's like six months,
but I think it's a little bit. It's a couple
of months, three months, Yeah, because his legs also like hell,

(01:05:20):
and yeah, he has time to write manuscript. She's so
I mean, it's like she's so good that it's just
like wild that in the world. It doesn't feel unrealistic
somehow that like Buster enters the house knowing she's a murderer,
and she's still is able to charm him hard enough

(01:05:41):
that he's about to leave the house. Like if if
if James conn hadn't made noise from the basement, he
would have left. It's just like she's she's good at
what she does. She's smart. I also wanted to I
agree with that you say what you're saying, Caitlin about
Stephen King's um, you know, just like right and kind
of just like a y variety of killers and crime doers.

(01:06:04):
He certainly has stuff that it is not relevant to
this discussion about another time. But also, I mean, this
is the production of this movie. It's white guys up
and down. However, however, it is like at least you know,
you like you're saying, Stephen king Um does write a
wide variety of women in a wide variety of villains.

(01:06:27):
And I feel like Rob Reiner and William Goldman also
have a pretty good track record with um you know,
not being shy about like centering women in their work
and not being like known as like hyper masculine UM
writer directors. It feels like, you know, if if it's
gotta be the three straight white guys, and according to Hollywood,

(01:06:50):
it did, always does, especially when it's Yeah, and I
think it's good to note too that, like, you know,
I see Misery as being a film with a female lead,
a strong female lead, and even Misery is is a
woman and she's the hero of that series. Yeah, So

(01:07:12):
to me, it's like it's it's strong female leads in
the book and in the film. That's right. Exploring the
book that Paul Sheldon wrote Boss this is based on
a book that Stephen King. It's all very confusing, but
it's female leads for sure. I would read those books. Yeah.
I was like, I wish someone I wonder if that

(01:07:33):
ever happened. You know, sometimes they're like, oh, this fake book,
and then someone actually writes it. Oh yeah, read the
Misery books. She sounds like a badass at the end
she does. I think that's great. That's the Misery Like
cinematic universe that we need. Yeah, And controversially, I liked
Annie's punch up of the Misery, not saying it was

(01:07:54):
all worth it, but I'm saying I liked her. I
liked her version. She had some good, good notes she did,
she had some ideas she was I loved off the
Cathy Bates delivery of Like I knew Missery was a
member of nobility, and you're just like yeah. Also the
way that you know, audiences remember horror movies for their

(01:08:14):
villains way more than their protagonists, who are like the
victims of the villains. And while you know, like Paul
is like just as resourceful as Annie, and you know
he's got the Bobby pin, he like stockpiles the drug,
the medicine. He you know, is able to procure a
knife at some point. He's also smart and resourceful. But

(01:08:38):
we remember Misery for the Kathy Bates character. We remember
it for Annie and her taking a sledgehammer to his ankles. Uh,
far more, I think, at least than anyone remembers like
James Cohn's character. Definitely, So yeah, it's her movie, And
just another shout out to Cathy Bates. Cathy Bates, She's amazing,

(01:08:59):
an icon is amazing. And you know, they talk about
her being basically, you know, quote unquote undiscovered at that time,
like she was, you know, she wasn't a name per se,
which is so wild. All you need is the chance,
you know, That's all you need. And I think this
is a great example of that. And she delivered. Oh yeah,

(01:09:19):
holy sh it did she? Uh? And and then she
won an odd like Oscar for her first like big
Hollywood role. It's yeah, it's She's awesome, wonderful. Yeah. Is
there anything else anyone wants to talk about? Um? I
don't think so. I mean, as far as the other
women in the movie, you know, I like that there

(01:09:40):
are women in roles. This is like a super super
white movie, which it doesn't have to be. Uh. For
further female characters we have. We have Lauren Bicall, who
is great. I feel like her character, you know, like
was properly motivated to like save her clients. And also

(01:10:00):
I just love agent characters because it's always like the
subtext is like I need to save my my my
money pile, not my person I care about. UM. Always
a fun character. UM. And then you have Virginia, who's
an icon, a legend and I am bombed that they
did not like she? How does she? How does she
react when she finds out Buster has been her shot?

(01:10:23):
And or run over with a tractor in the book,
and or oh god, yeah, poor Virginia. Also horny icon
she's trying to she's trying to jerk her husband off
at work. Good fun, pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, I love
I think the women in the movie all. What I

(01:10:46):
do like about that, I guess it's three right, it's yeah, yeah,
is that they're all, in my opinion, very strong character. Still,
they're women with the mission. Obviously, you know, any played
by a Kathy Basis mission is not a good one,
not a commission, not a mission we are rooting for,

(01:11:08):
but a mission. Nonetheless, you know what I mean, They're
very active character, and they're all smart, they all have
things figured out. They all, you know, are kind of
a step ahead of whatever you know for so I
like that I can say that all of them are
strong and motivated in their own rights. I really like

(01:11:31):
that nobody felt like a vapid, unnecessary character or a
character used for to be like a sex symbol or
to you know, to learn the guys to the theater.
Like I like I like that they all the characters
felt very strong but also very and I like the

(01:11:53):
casting of them too. I think that they give that
as well. They're they're giving. We care about the character
so much what they look like, and as an actor,
I I always those are roles that I am drawn to.
But also it's it's roles that I appreciate seeing on
screen where I can say, yes, this woman is beautiful

(01:12:14):
or strong, whatever, but what matters is not just what
she looks like. She's saying something, she's doing something. She
has real motivations. And I like that I can say
that about all three, all three of the women. Yeah,
for sure. Yeah, And just like the fact that it's like,
like you're saying, actually, like they're three women who are
over forty, and we know what their jobs are, and

(01:12:35):
their jobs are important to what they're doing at all times,
very important and important to the story. Like it's important
it's important that his agent is like, no, like he's
missing what's going on. It's important that Virginia is like, muster,
something's going on here. I don't know, I'm gonna you know,
it's important that Kathy baits, you know, Annie has this
mission of getting Paul Sheldon to do what she wants

(01:12:58):
him to do. Whether again, it's there's you know, we
don't agree with her, but she's you know, sledge hammering
off ankles. You know, there's a lot of bad stuff happening,
but everyone's motivation is very clear. I bang with that. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. And it's like there are three female characters,
but there's also not a lot of men. It's just

(01:13:18):
a pretty small cast in general. Like yeah, yeah, because
it's like there's like, what six people in this movie?
Yeah yeah. I mean, look, I don't know what our
listeners were expecting, but this movie does rock. It rocks
and the rules rules that. I will give credit to

(01:13:39):
Jamie for that because I heard you say that one
time and I was like, that's a good Oh. My
mom used to say that when I did my homework.
Ross and Rules rocks, Rolls and Rules. I also Mystery
is also just a movie. I don't know anyone who's
seen it doesn't like it. Like I've never heard one
person be like I hate misery, never want to see

(01:14:03):
that again. Like I've never heard someone say that. All right,
is there any any other anything we haven't touched on?
I think it's all I have, same, oh I wrote, Oh,
I wrote, Um, Okay, here's some of my worst thoughts
I had. Please okay, the original para social relationship cautionary tale. Okay,
we talked about that. Okay. Here's my other thing, feminist icon,

(01:14:24):
the piss jug question mark hundred percent feminist icon, the piss.
I can't believe we've been talking for an hour and
a half and we haven't brought up the piss jug
in a in a really funny scene where she's just
like kind of flinging it around. I think it has
a lid on it, so there's no danger of the
piss you're flying out, but there's the like, the cinematography

(01:14:49):
in that scene is so focused on the piss jug
and Paul James con watching the piss jug thinking that
it's going to spill all over him. Please don't spell
my piss on me U cint A. Photographer Barry Snenfeld
wild that you know a lot of talent in this movie. Yeah, yeah,
I liked. I mean, as someone who um has has

(01:15:09):
done some piss jug caretaking in my day, I appreciated
piss jug representation because it's a it's a part of
the Gig incredible. Um. Well, this movie I do not
believe actually passes the Bechdel test unless you do count
the conversation that Anny and her pig named Misery, so

(01:15:34):
we know the pig's name. They do kind of snort
and oink around each other. I would say it it
like doesn't pass, but also that this is we've talked
about this for years, even though some people never want
to hear it. But like that, just like the fact
that like this, this metric was created as like a

(01:15:55):
bit and it doesn't you know, it's not the end
all be all, yeah it and decide if something is
you know, overtly feminist or not. Um, but what does
is decide That is our nipple scale, on which we
rate the movie zero to five nipples. Examining the movie

(01:16:17):
through an intersectional feminist lens. Now, this one is another
very tricky one because of the different ways that you
can examine this movie. Could you argue that Annie Wilkes
is a like reclaimable you know, female villain because she's
so smart and because she's always one step ahead, and

(01:16:39):
you know, for any number of other reasons. I think
sure I can see that argument. Could you make the
argument that it's another example of you know, villainizing an
older woman, an unmarried woman with no children, a woman
whose appearance and body size doesn't conform to rigid Western
beauties standards, and that those attributes being kind of used

(01:17:05):
to demonize her. Sure, there there's lots of things. And
then when you think back to Stephen King's original intention,
which he revealed some years later, was that this is
you know, the anti character is a metaphor for his
addiction that there's a whole other lens by which you
can um watch this story. But then those implications still

(01:17:26):
exist as far as like her character goes in the
way that she is characterized. So right, right, I don't
know that there's I can't really come to a conclusive
thought because I really like this movie. I don't think
it's saying something like all women are scary and unhinged,
because we see other characters in the movie who are

(01:17:47):
very much not that. So it's just I think some
people are very scary and murderers, and sometimes those people
are women, and here is a story about one such woman,
and in a way, that's feminism, and that's actually feminism. Um,
you know, there are some as We've discussed some like
kind of gendered things and you know, like kind of

(01:18:09):
stereotypical tropes at play, but this is not the worst
example we've seen, especially in this era, horror movies, thriller
movies in this era, across the kind of you know,
genre spectrum. Even so, Yeah, and so I'm going to
do what I normally do when I don't know how
to rate a movie, and that's just do a split

(01:18:29):
down the middle of two point five nipples. I will
give one to Kathy Bates and her incredible performance. Um,
I will give another one to Kathy Bates and her
incredible performance in Titanic as the unsinkable Molly Brown. And
I'll give my half nipple to Misery the pig. I've

(01:18:52):
I'm tempted to go in my I was like, if
I was really going buck Wild, I would go three
and a half. I think I'm gonna go three because
I do think that there are, like what we we've discussed,
there are a lot of tropes about women who are
not traditionally you know, Hollywood hot and young, um, that
are being leveraged as like a shorthand. To explain why

(01:19:15):
Andy Wilkes is the way she is. However, I think
we also get a lot of explanation as to why
Annie Wilkes is the way she is. That would also
work if you cast a traditional hot Hollywood actress, like
she's just like implicitly evil. And so there's so many
ways to look at this movie. I feel like the
fact that you know, over thirty years later, we're able

(01:19:37):
to still have such a rich discussion about like what
she could mean and all the different ways to look
at this character speaks very well of it, and especially
if like Kathy Bates's performance. But obviously there are tropes
at play that you know, you could watch the movie
and think the movies commenting on or you could watch
the movie and think that the movie is completely playing
into and it's just a it's a tricky one. Um.

(01:20:02):
But of the Stephen King adaptations, I think that's this
is like, I mean, definitely up there is one of
my favorites. I don't know if what my favorite Stephen
King adaptation is. I know that I get very horny
for Bill scars Guard, So that's it as mr it
not in its specifically, but just in general. But then
it kind of has nothing to do with the quality

(01:20:23):
of the movie, so it's complicated. Wait have you seen
Barbarian yet? Just as quick little side. Oh yeah, it's good.
It's really good. I rather liked it. Yeah, and it's
a fun It's like it's I think it's my Halloween
movie of the year so far. But yeah, I mean
I think that this movie is still so ripe for

(01:20:44):
discussion in a way that a lot of movies from
this era aren't. So I'm gonna give it three and
I still am like, do I think three and a half?
I don't know. But ultimately it is like it's a
movie that you know, it's you know, straight white guys
all all the way, all the way down. There's no
real diversity of talent behind the camera, which always sucks

(01:21:04):
to see we're in front of the camera or in
front of the camera, Um I meant gender wise as Yeah,
but it's shout out to them. I think one person
of color in the movie, who is a reporter, who
is a black woman, saying that Paul Sheldon is presumed dead,
I believe is the only where's her spin off? Where

(01:21:27):
is her spin off? But yeah, I think I'll go
three nipples, uh and I'll give I'll give one to Annie,
one to misery the peg and one to misery the character.
Or alternatively, I give all of them to Virginia and
she can use the spare like a tire. Yes, good, good, good, Actually,
how about you. I love both of the arguments, and

(01:21:50):
I actually agree very much so with you both. I
think I'm giving it three nipples. I'm giving it to
the three female leads in the movie. I think that's
why he gets three. The agent, you know, Virginia Buster's wife,
and you know Lauren Ball obviously his agent, and um

(01:22:11):
to Cathy Bates. I think that, you know, they're all
very important, useful, like I said, strong characters in the movie,
and I think that because of that, I'm giving it
three to represent all all three of them. Nice for sure, wonderful. Actually,
thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me,
Thank you for bringing us this movie. Yeah, talking about

(01:22:33):
Misery on a Monday, ely, what better time. And we'll
come back any time to talk about any other film. Yes,
thank you so much. You guys are just incredibly brilliant
and cool. Oh stop it are you are a number
one fan? Yes, to be talking about anything films and women,

(01:22:57):
I mean, it's right up my at least this is great.
Come back any time. We'd love to have you back.
Thank you. Where can people follow you online and have
a healthy paras social relationship. You can follow me on
Instagram and Twitter at Ashley Blaine and then my podcast

(01:23:17):
at Trials to Triumph Spodum on both Yeah awesome, Yes,
please check Ashley out. You can follow us on social
media at Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can
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(01:23:39):
episodes every single month. This month we are doing spooky movies,
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Mr games one. Uh And that's five dollars a month.

(01:24:01):
And you also get access to the back catalog. And
sorry there's a siren because that's Buster and Virginia coming
to save me. I've been trapped this whole time. Copaganda.
Copaganda got us again, didn't it? Okay? You can also
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the Back del Cast if you're so inclined to get

(01:24:23):
merch and uh and with that, let's go publish a
bestseller but be haunted by the ghost of Annie Wilkes
for the rest of our lives. Let's do it. I
do not sign up for that. I don't want that.
Fair fair, fair, fair Okay, bye bye bye