Moana with Natalie Baseman

Jamie and Caitlin and guest Natalie Baseman discuss Disney's Moana. What can we say except "You're Welcome."

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy ZF and
best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hi, welcome
to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie, my name
is Caitlin, and this is the vac dol Cast. This

(00:22):
is a movie podcast where we talked about the portrayal
of women in movies. Oh yeah, I forgot first. We
wanted to. It was announced recently, keeping some housekeeping things,
some cool things. It was announced recently. I found an
article on end gadget dot com, the whole website for
tech heads. Oh, I am not super familiar with it.

(00:44):
I'm going to pretend to be cool. The article is
IMDb adds an F rating to help users identify feminist
friendly movies. Does that seem a little bit condescending the
F or just like confusing? Like, oh, this movie has
an F but it's good should be a for ally,

(01:06):
So I like that. I like it. I like that
a lot, so be on the lookout for that. I'm
not sure when they're launching that exactly. But and then
the the other thing that we learned about since our
last episode is the sexy lamp test, which is sort
of a contemporary spin on the back Dolt test that
in the sexy lamp that's a reference to Christmas story,

(01:27):
is it not? Okay? So the sexy lamp test is
none of the women can be replaced by a sexy
lamp and have the plot remain intact. So it's basically
just like a lesson in objectification, which we're down for.
We're down. There's so many variations on tests. I mean,
I mean on this website alone, the backtel test, sexy
lamp test, the Mako Morey test. The Macho Morey test

(01:50):
says a movie has to have at least one female
character with her own narrative arc that is not about
supporting a man's story, so it has to be her own.
She has to have her own story that doesn't have
anything to do with a man's goal or desires. And
then there's the furious A test, which I think is
mislabeled here because I'm pretty sure I created that test,
and it's more the furious A rule, which is that

(02:11):
the baldest woman in the movie is in charge. And
I think that that rule pretty much holds up. Name
me a movie with a bald woman who is not
in charge. I don't know if I can name you
a movie with a bald woman apart from mad Max,
Fury Road and I Jane. Oh damn it, I was
like truck card. There's another one. The anti freeze test

(02:37):
says that no woman assaulted, injured, or killed to further
the story of another character, so that cannot happen or
else it does not pass the anti freeze test. So um,
someone had tweeted at us a while back letting us
know about the sexy lamp test. I wish I could
remember that person's Twitter handle. I don't. Sorry, we'll put
it in the description. Yeah. Anyway, these you with these

(03:00):
tests were brought to our attention. So we got some
other litmus tests to apply to the movies we talk
about if we want anyway, let's get this moving right along,
all right, Let's do it and introduce our wonderful guests.
She's a screenwriter and she has written for Reductress Natalie Basement. Hi,

(03:22):
thanks for being here. Oh, it is a pleasure to
be here. O, my god, thank you for having me. So.
One of the things we often mentioned on the podcast,
and I don't like to bring it up, is that
I have a screenwriting master's degree. Guest, who else has
a screenwriting masters degree? Natalie does? Goddamn it? So serious, serious, guys.

(03:48):
So I'm a trigger. So I'm going home. You know,
you understand my struggle. It's hard. It's that I went
to film school because I love movies, and it it
made me so I can't watch a movie without destroying it.
I have a much more critical eye when I I
can see the screenwriter's hand in like every decision that's

(04:12):
made when I'm watching a movie, but I'm still able
to enjoy them. Yeah. Well, if the movie is good enough,
I'll forget about it, like the movie we're going to
talk about. I went to radio school to kill my
new England accent and develop a very smooth delivery voice,
and it's working. Thank you so much. I used to

(04:33):
I used to host a late night R and B
show and be like, this is eight eight nine at night.
If you have any calls, feel free to call in
for your loved one, and then it would be like
CVS brand Delilah. It was nice. I was like, I
hope people are sucking to this, and sometimes it would
just be like horny older guys have calling and be
like play a song for my wife, and I'd be

(04:53):
like this next song goes out to Louisa on her
thirtieth anniversary. I definitely what I've listened to your show,
Thank you so much. I also hosted a show called
The Playground where I only talked in a nasal tone.
So that's what I did. That's why I'm in it good.
Thank you. My mom told me today that she has
a hard time distinguishing our voices whenever she was listening

(05:15):
to the podcast. I have sometimes too, Really, do we
say enough alike? I think that we have. Maybe I
should start talking in like an Australian accent. Hey are
we It's that? What's silent? So that's really good? Bad,
that's really good. Thanks. I only have like two voices,
which is tricky. I can talk like my former co

(05:36):
worker Nick, and then I can just talk hear it, Hey, Nick,
what's going on? Hey that's going a nice Nick Hanson? Yeah, Nick,
I have a blag about turkey sandwiches. I live in Minnesota.
I'm the nicest by a lot, and I used to
like write sketches about Nick everyone following on Twitter at
Nick Hanson m N. I used to write sketches about

(05:57):
Nick when we worked together, and I would always make
him like a vicious murderer and kept his name like.
There was one thing used to do where I would
be like wearing a wig and I'd have a gun
under the wig. I would be just Nick going from
table to table being Hella, I have again under my wig.
Do you believe me? And then people would be like no,

(06:17):
He'd be like, take off my wig. I defy it.
To take off my wig. It was so much fun.
I missed it. That is a pretty good Nick impression.
Though you and I went to grad school together. Again,
I don't like. I don't like. Oh my god, guys,
in spite of the fact that I've been making cartoons

(06:38):
about Nick being a murderer and the cartoons are making
fun of his Turkey sandwich blog. He sent me and
my dad a Christmas cards. Last act, he's a very Nicholas.
He sent me a DVD of Ferris Bueller's Day Off
on my birthday. I don't even have a DVD player.
I love it. Hey, speaking to DVDs, let's talk about
the movie that we're here to talk about. Okay, don't

(07:00):
sound so defeated, because it's a movie that we enjoy,
we really like. We we're talking about Moanna. It came
out last year, so it's not as though any of
us have a huge history with this movie. But you
saw in theaters, right, Natalie. I saw it at a
It was a special preview at my grad school. WHOA
what you went to grad school? Sometimes they do at

(07:23):
special previews data special screen of Mohanna that was presented
by the Pacific Islanders Group at the school, which was
really great because there were a lot of students there
who are either from the Pacific Islands Hawaii or around
there or are descended from there, and I live here
and so they were all super pumped for it. So
it was just a really great vibe going into it.

(07:44):
And then there was an interview with the screenwriter after
overtty cool. Yeah, and this was this before like the
theatrical release. Yeah, just a couple of weeks there. And
I didn't know that the screenwriter of this had had
a hell of a year last year because he also
wrote and directed Utopia. Kidding, Yeah, he was like a
low gas animator last year and he looks like just

(08:04):
the widest dad. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he for sure golfs,
but he also had an amazing So you saw it
a little bit before because it came out in two
around November, was it, Yeah, it was right, it was
right before the holidays, and I just I just kept
thinking about it. I left the theater and I went

(08:25):
in with very low expectations, maybe a little bit higher
because I did enjoy Frozen so much, And then I
was just so blown away and just listened to the
soundtrack forever after and it's still stuck in my head.
And I rewatched it for the third time last night
in preparation for this, and it is. It's just a
beautiful movie. It is. It's almost everything I ever wanted

(08:47):
out of a Disney princess movie, but never never knew
I wanted. Yeah, exactly. Every time I've seen it, I've
been so emotional because it's like, this is the this
is what Disney movies should have been like all along.
Caitlin didn't cry, but she did sing. I did, right.
So I watched it twice in the past day and

(09:09):
a half. So the story is Moanna is the daughter
of a chief on an island, called Moutanui, and we
learned about this sort of creation legend in the very
beginning where this demigod Maui has stolen the heart. I
like to call it the heart of the Ocean, Titanic
reference call it. I know that they ever actually do it.

(09:32):
They always call it the heart of Taffiti, because I mean,
like that would be like I would have loved that
there was an overt tan reference. Well, she wears it
around her neck if it were true, and Mauie drops
her naked. Yeah, so Maui steals the heart from this

(09:56):
mother island, and then it creates this sort of leg
that is spreading to the other islands and like diseasing
the crops and all this stuff. So this starts to
happen to the island that Mowana lives on with her family,
her mom and her dad and her grandma. She also,
throughout the course of her childhood is drawn to the ocean,
and her dad's like, you can't go out. It's dangerous.

(10:18):
You have to stay on the island. You can't go
out sailing, And she's like, but I wanna. So I
think it would be funny if we subbed in cocaine
for the ocean. She's like, I can't stay away. I
was born with this desire to snort coke. And then
she sings the same song about it would explain how

(10:39):
she got to the island so quickly, right, just just
very focused. She's like, I kinda go right now. I'm
being fast. Oh yeah, I know she Yeah, she's got
that co cattled brain. Yeah. So she's drawn to the ocean,
and the ocean sort of chooses her to it, like
delivers her this heart, this little rock that's the heart
of the ocean, and she's a baby, but she doesn't

(11:01):
really know about it. Turns out her grandma found it
for her and has been keeping it for her. And
then when the crops start to get to disease and
there's no fish, she's like, I gotta go and fix this.
There's a whole global warming climate change. I made notes
about it. So she decides to she gets the call
to adventure. She goes off and she takes a boat

(11:23):
because she learns that their ancestors were all voyagers, and
so she's like, I gotta get on these boats. I'm
gonna go off and I'm gonna go to Maui. The
stemigod who fucked everything up. I went back up a
little bit to say, ten minutes of topless baby, we
do see some babies nipples. We see baby nips and
progressive in every way. I'm like, you know what, loving

(11:46):
not aroused by these baby nips. Just happy they're here.
I didn't even think about that, and I'm so happy
that's the case. I think I literally shouted baby nips.
All right, we watched it together. This is we did.
We watched together. Oh, we're hottest couffle. Oh. And when
the grandmother, when she's sick and dying, she brings Mohana

(12:09):
close and says go and she says, grab Mauie, and
you tell him I am mo Wanna from Montanui and
you will do this. You will sail across the ocean
and you will do this, and just so forceful and beautiful.
It was great. So she does, she goes, and she
um kind of self teaches herself. I do feel like

(12:32):
with the death of the grandma, they do shoehorn in
a maternal death as a motivation. Um. But but I
wasn't bothered by it. I wasn't either, but it just
felt worth mentioning. So she goes, she finds Mauie. He
is a dick, but we love him, and he agreed.
He agrees to reluctantly help her after she convinces him, Yeah,

(12:57):
you thought you were great, but no one likes you anymore,
so you have to redeem yourself. And they, you know,
encounter some coconut pirates along the way. They only agrees
so he can go get his magical hook bad and
then they go do that, and there's a very sexy
song shiny yeah, Oh my god, the yeah, the Germaine

(13:17):
Clement pulling a bowie. I loved that. That was so good.
And You're welcome, which is the ultimate man's bliny song.
The rock just really delivers so on every level. So
where he's a shape shifter and but he needs a
magical hook that was bestowed to him by the gods
to be able to shape shift. So they go and
they get his hook, and then he, like again reluctantly

(13:39):
agrees to help her restore the heart and they go
and there's a lot of a monster they have to defeat,
and she questions who she is the whole time, like,
am I the right person for this? Why was I chosen?
And he's just like egging her on, being like, yeah,
why were you chosen? And so she has all this
self doubt, um, but she's very driven throughout the entire thing.
And then finally they get to DEFETI. She restores the heart.

(14:05):
She's the one who does it, even though the whole
time it's like, now you have to be the one
to do it, and then she realizes, no, I have
to be the one to do it. So she is
integral and the like actual climax and resolution of the story,
which is great. Last night, I was watching it by
myself and I was basically crying the whole time. So
what are your crime moments? Because I cry every time

(14:28):
I've seen this movie, and I've cried listening to soundtrack
and it is last night I tried to write down
when I cried so we could compare it. What are
the most moment? The biggest one that makes me the
most emotional is toward the end, after Maui has decided
to leave, Like, they attempted defeating I forget what the

(14:49):
law of monster's name is. Um, they attempt defeating her
once and they fail. So mal he's like, I'm going
to get out of here. And Molana is like, I've
made a mistake. I shouldn't even you chose the wrong person.
Please choose someone else, Ocean, and then her grandma shows
up and they sing a song together and she's like,

(15:09):
I am mo wanna. That's so just like so good.
Water works the lyrics of that song because I was
singing along and then realized I actually don't know the
lyrics and I'm just singing the emotions. But then I
looked up the lyrics and was bawling because they are beautiful.
It's like there's a line about how the scars make

(15:31):
you stronger, and I mean, well, might as well jump
into it. But I really think this movie is so
much about overcoming trauma and overcoming these hard things that
can happen to you. And and even though Mohanna doesn't
necessarily she's she's the savior of the victim and it's

(15:52):
and it's in that moment she is so defeated and
then overcomes it by just repeating who she is, and
it's beautiful. The Disney movie that it most closely reflected
for me was Pocahon Tests, which was my first favorite movie.
I believe that there are hours of home video footage

(16:12):
of me just screaming colors of the wind out a
mountain in New Hampshire, like Age three, but for for
a couple of reasons, even though like it's a you know,
Pocahon is hinged on, you know, she falls in love
with the man, but also she lets him go at
the end. But more so like this young woman who

(16:33):
goes on an adventure and then at the end she
learns about herself. She learns about A, B and C,
but then decides that her place is at home with
her family, and there's some sort of duty connected to
her home into family, which I wasn't sure where this
movie was going to end. I wasn't sure if Moana
was going to leave home or stay and and I

(16:54):
think I would have been happy with either. And it
didn't bother me one bit that she returned home at
for this journey all wise and coming away, Well, she
returns home, but then she's like, guys, let's all be
voyagers again. She teaches her dad how to be away
finder and stuff. It is beautiful. Caitlin, What was your
Disney Princess movie growing up? If you had one. The

(17:15):
ones that I connected with most were Little Mermaid Aladdin,
which I mean, Jasmine is a princess and it's kind
of a Disney princess. She's like, yeah, she's barely in it.
I also really loved Being but those are both like
so problematic that I don't even want a bit. Yeah,
I was a big Cinderella girl, and I would I

(17:36):
would watch both the Disney version and then like every
other version, I could get Rogers and Hammerstein Baby the best,
the Brandy version. And what is so great about Mohana
is that they really play with the tropes of the
fairy Tale and of the Disney Princess movie and turn
it on its on its head, but in ways that

(17:57):
are not jarring, but in ways that may right. So
like the Fairy Godmother and Cinderella saves the day, and
also Cinderella would still be there if the fair Godmother
never came, and the fairy Godler saves her over and
over again, whereas the fairy Godmother in this movie, I
would say, is the ocean. And yes, she is saved

(18:19):
by the ocean over and over again, but the ocean
is presented as very dangerous at the start of the movie,
almost kills her, and she saves herself. She gets her
foot caught underneath a rock and then breaks it away
and swims away. And she whenever I was trying to
pay attention to it this last time, I watch it.
Every time the ocean saves her, she has done something

(18:41):
to try and save herself before the ocean does, right right, Yeah,
I mean I was worried about the ocean kind of
becoming a device to get her out of situate, but
it never really came to that. It was always I mean,
there were times where it came in as an assistant,
but you know, she she was always the one taking action.
She does all the heavy lifting. Yeah, yeah, there's ah man.

(19:02):
It was so good, And I totally agree with the
Natalie that, like all the you know, displacements of the
basic Disney Princess tropes were I didn't feel shoehorned or
forced or like overdone, which they totally could have been.
And the fact that I feel like it's worth mentioning
that Moana's body type is like normal, It's like mildly realistic,

(19:25):
as close to proportional as probably a Princess style character
has ever been, which is really really cool. No like
two inch waste and and all this stuff. She seems
like strong, like physically strong and able, which need to
be and we see her like doing these like pretty
amazing feats of strength. Every time she'd pull a rope,

(19:48):
I'd be like, well, that is, I couldn't do that.
She's kind of like Aladdin in that way. She's from
the beginning of the movie. She is doing these feats
of strength in these of acrobatics, and she runs up
and fixes the pomp fronds in the building and stops
the leaking, and and then everything with the ship requires

(20:09):
so much physical strength. On the same topic of like
the bodies and stuff one of crime moment number one,
the first time I saw it was so the grandmother
was like just a beautiful character and the relationship is wonderful,
but the grandmother's arms like hit something inside of me
that I didn't know was there really, And it was like,

(20:32):
you know, even when they show uh different figures on TV,
it's often larger hips, a larger bust, even a larger waist,
but you know something like arms are still very skinny
and trim and like or like sleeved or sleeved or
and and to see this like woman's skin that is alive,

(20:52):
that is an old woman's body. That was like, oh
my god, those are my grandmother's arm show me that
decay baby, I was. I was actually going to bring
up the grandmother too, because that was the other big
thing that reminded me of Pocahontas, except the role of
the grandmother is a tree. But that tree is dope

(21:12):
and very helpful, like Moana's grandma. My mom. We had
like a tree that it was not a willow tree.
It looked nothing like the tree. But I was so
into Pocahontas as a kid that I think she like
brought a sharpie out to her tree and there was
like a little hole in it like grandmother Willa's face,
and she added a little smiley face with eyelashes and
then she'd be like Jamie, look, and I would just

(21:34):
go talk to the tree. It was maybe to get
rid of me for a while because I would just
go confess to the tree, that's amazing. Oh. The thing
I wanted to mention about her just being physically strong,
which that is oftentimes when movies want to like show
that a woman character is like not your typical lady

(21:54):
like the others, like stronger than normal or a trope
you see over and over again when just I don't
really understand is she's good at fixing cars, but like
nickan Fox and transforming and something I forgot to mention
in Um Runaway Bride, Julia Roberts knows how to fix
cars and that makes you more handy. But anyway, it

(22:17):
wasn't like, oh, what a stupid trope to rely on
in mo Wana, Like she lives on an island and
you know they're farming in harvesting crops, and like she
would have to be right. It's so justified and we
see her getting trained for it, so it like comes
from somewhere and it doesn't feel like one of those
lay mass like action movie tropes of like you know,

(22:38):
there's is great. I think it's a mixed Wheeney's piece
that I think about at least once a week about
like I'm the woman and I can kick and it's like,
you know, like the one amazing thing the woman can do.
And then the guys turned to her like what the
woman could do a thing? And she's like, whatever, I
guess I can, and that's like the one display of
female strength. She like kicks open a door and they're like, wow,

(23:01):
we're more horny now, you know. And it's just like
so infuriating, and you can feel the screenwriter like grabbing
his crotch in a congratulatory fashion. Of course. Yeah, there's
a moment when Maui abandons her on the island. Yeah,
there's this episode maybe two hours long I have loved

(23:25):
to talk about. So she gets trapped on the island
because Maui traps her in a cave and there's like
a statue that he clearly made of himself yea, and
she like crawls up it and then like kicks it
over and like uses it to jump into which is
very like Raiders of the Lost Arc. Yeah uh. And
then she like has to climb out of this like

(23:46):
hole in this ceiling and stuff, and I'm just like
fu yeah, dude, she defies Mauie so much. I love it.
I love I love her. In Mauie's relationship, I was
the whole time, I was like, Caitlin, will they kiss?
And well, I feel okay about it because there were
moments where I was like, is this daddy or boyfriend?
You know, Like there's moments where their hands would touch

(24:07):
and I'd be like, hmmm, he has one million years old,
am I okay with this? And then by the end
it was sort of like, you know what, I am
okay with it, but then nothing happens. But that's like
one of the amazing things about this movie is there
is a complete void of romantic interest and and that
is part of Oh my god, I'm doing a great

(24:28):
job because from the show room downstairs. Um, that's like
part of what makes this movie so amazing. And because
I think I'm so first of all trained to expect
and second of all genuinely love princess movies that I
was sort of waiting for a love interest to arrive
and it never happened. And in retrospect, that's great. Had

(24:50):
she kissed Mauie, I would be like, okay, oh, I
would have been furious. I would have I would have
the first time I saw I would have common media.
The second time, I'd be like, hey, maybe that's when
he's a million and I think that's I think that's
a real Um. The only reason why we like Maui

(25:12):
is because the rock is amazing and because Mauie, like,
when you break down what he does, he steals the
heart of this island, which is a god who made him.
He essentially rapes her, takes her power, uses it to
do all kinds of ship It becomes his power, and

(25:35):
then Moanna is tasked to bring that heart back to
the island. And all he does is try and kill Moanna.
He is constantly trying to throw her off a boat
and the multiple time of her just leave her on
this island that he was deserted for years and years.

(25:55):
He talks down to her, He is rude, he calls her.
He derogatorily calls her a princess, which is very interesting
because it was I found that to be a little
heavy handed that, you know, they wanted to get the
princess thing in there, but the way they did it
I liked because she stood up for herself was just

(26:17):
like I'm not a princess. Yeah. There's a line where
he's like, if you wear a dress and you have
an animal sidekick, you're a princess. And she's like, no,
I'm the daughter of a chief. I see his boy
off and it's both, Yeah, I can't be both. I
almost found it too third wave that she's like, I'm
not a princess. I was like, you can be a princess.

(26:38):
You can just be a better princess. This is the
final wave of feminism, and it's invented by me. She's
final way feminism is the last one is there was
I was going to try to make a pun about
ocean waves. Speaking of bad pun. Fuck. The twitter joke

(26:58):
in this movie makes a twitter every time there's like,
I was like, why this movie is dated in no
other way except for that horrible joke. And so that
twitter joke in so many ways encapsulate his his character.
So he makes a joke that's dumb and bad. He
makes a bad joke which is, uh, you know when

(27:22):
you're doing a great job, oh thank you. When you
write with a bird, it's called tweet, or it's called twitter,
which is a real growner. And then later on they
get attacked by these coconut things. Oh my god, this
point of the mind, and we'll get there too, because
it's a lot of violence but emoji coconuts. But he

(27:43):
she loses the heart, which is the whole reason why
she's doing everything, the heart of this ocean, which is
this green stone. And he smiles and he's like, but
you got one right here, and he holds up the
paddle where he etched that stupid Twitter joke where he
signed his name in a heart, and it's like, you
piece of shit. You are not taking her seriously at

(28:04):
any moment. And I love Mauie. I love him. He's charming,
and he's got a hot bod. His tattoos are ridiculous.
A beefcake, He's a beefcake beyond. He's a demigod, he's
hercules and everything he does. When I write it down,
it's like, I fucking hate you. I hate you. Are

(28:27):
the villain. You are the villain of this movie. This
is the point where I would usually say in the podcast,
I could fix fixing. I could fix him with my
love on my body. And I would like Jamie No
to be afforded that opportunity. And you know, okay, it is.
The Rock plays a major thing in what makes me

(28:49):
horny for Mauie, and also probably some internalized misogyny. But
the Rock is the most talented man to ever live.
If he ever turns out to be a fucking mon stir,
I will throw myself off a building because he is perfect.
I had the same thought today, and like, what does
that say? What does that say about us? That we

(29:10):
are waiting for the other shoe to drop on these
men that we love, I mean more often than not. Yeah,
like it, you know every time. I feel like every
time I mentioned being a fan of a straight man
of of any distinction, someone goes like, oh no, but
didn't You are like, yeah, he killed people using a

(29:33):
shank he made out of soap. But he's not in jail,
you know, And then I'm just like, oh great, now, my,
you know I can't love Kelsey Grammar anymore. Kelsey Grammar,
yeah them all? Fuck? You know. Have we lost Alex
Alex Trebek yet? Can I keep him? I see a
good boy. I haven't heard anything. Have you ever seen

(29:53):
a good boy? I mean, not a felon? You know,
if you're listening right now and you haven't seen pictures
of shirtless young Alex Trebec, treat yourself. He has the
same mustache, incredible abs. It's weird, amazing. I have a

(30:14):
real thing I would like to say, as we tend
to find again and again. In spite of the fact
that this is so well done in regards to how
it treats his female characters, obviously, it passes the Backtel
test with flying colors. It is directed by and written
by straight white men, which is kind of par for
the course when it comes to stuff like this. But
I went into watching it with you blind and didn't

(30:37):
do my research until after i'd already finished, because I
didn't want to find out anything that would disappoint me
in advance, such as it was written and directed completely
by straight white men. And it's like, it's not surprising,
and in some regards, it's encouraging straight white men at least,
you know, giving them the least benefit of the doubt,
understand that it's now marketable to be re suitable to

(31:00):
their female characters and to empower them. But it's still,
you know, it's disappointing in its way that it's like, Okay,
it's great that these guys understand that people are interested
in a movie with a female protagonist with a normal
body and ambition and you know, like a really grounded character.

(31:21):
But come on, like, I mean, there are plenty of
women screenwriters and directors and other four. There's two of
them in the room right now, so we are Hirer's
I'm here too when you are else. You are a
very talented animator and editor and filmmaker. When I went

(31:44):
and saw this at school, and there was an interview
with the screenwriter at the end. It was very disappointing
to see him walk on stage that it was another
white guy who works at Disney looks like the same,
and I do wonder. I think you make an interesting point, Jamie,
and that how much of corporate interest kind of goes

(32:05):
into those decisions. Because one of the interesting things he said,
someone had asked, you made the decision to have Moanna's
mother be alive because most Disney princesses have dead mothers,
and he said, oh, yeah, well she was dead to
begin with. Then someone pointed out that it was dead

(32:26):
mother and we had to change it. And I was like, oh, okay,
So how many other points did you have to change
because someone was like, no, you can't, you can't do that.
Maybe this is jaded, but I would say probably a lot.
Like if they thought that feminism and positive betrayal of

(32:47):
of women characters was in no way marketable, there's no
chance to me that this would have been like a
major Disney release, Like they've received so much criticism over
the years, and I'm like, I feel like, you know,
with the Internet that's only grown larger and more pervasive

(33:08):
and it's I don't know. I mean, it really is
kind of the best case scenario where it's like, well,
at least this movie was made and it's really good
and it's corporate interests aside. It sends the right message
to the right people. With just young girls seeing this movie, Um,
it's a start. It's it's a start, and it means

(33:28):
that there are let a let a woman get a
fucking job for once, Jesus Christ. And what's upsetting is
that so there were women in this process. There were tons,
tons of people worked on this film. So there were
dozens and dozens, if not more, women who worked on
this movie. And they obviously listened to them because if
they were getting that kind of feedback, and I know,

(33:50):
I know their process is very collaborative, but when it
comes down to it, when you give the man the
writing credit, when you give the man that paycheck, it
sucks that that does suck. And I know they are
changing a little bit, but the infrastructure of how Disney
works is you have to work your way up and
you have to be with them for so long and
they test you over and over and over again, and

(34:13):
that's it's it's a then becomes a systemic problem. I'd
be interested in learning more about that process, because that
definitely makes a lot of sense that if even if
women are being mentored and groomed for these kind of
jobs now, we won't see it until, you know, ten
years from now, when they're given the opportunity to finally
do it. But my question is our women being mentored?

(34:36):
I feel like so often and and I don't know
how much of this even factors into prejudice, but like
people gravitate towards you know, you remind me of a
younger me to mentor. And if everyone working at a
high level there is a white guy and custom sort
of trains you. And this goes for powerful women training
younger powerful women as well. But like, if you're drawn

(34:59):
to someone who room I into of a younger version
of you with potential, then who is supposed to mentor
these like younger women animators are like aspiring dirt. I mean,
it's something that's brought up again and again, but it's
so fucking frustrating. I'm like, does does a woman need
to just completely self educate herself and not be guided

(35:19):
along in the same way that that, uh, you know,
a guy would be. And it seems like that might
be the case of just like, Okay, you've got worked
twice as hard to get the same thing, and you're
gonna have to take all the ship along the way.
I'm just like, I'm just ranting. No, you're making all
the right points, because yeah, then women are put in
a position where they, yeah, like you said, have to

(35:40):
work so much harder. It takes them so much longer.
They don't have the same connections as someone's a powerful
mentor it does have, so them having those same opportunities
is just so much less likely to happen. I mean, yeah,
and and it you know, it's like sort of that
thing where it boils down to like is your work good?
Which I don't think men have to confront that basic

(36:04):
truth as much of not only are you not going
to get the mentor opportunities that this person working on
an equal level is you who's a man will, but
also like, show me what you can do in spite
of the fact that you don't have the same amount
of access and you have to work twice as hard
to get the same thing. And I mean, it is
nitpicky to an extent, because Molana does so well, but

(36:28):
I would I would hazard to guess that so much
of the success of this movie comes from gentle guidance
or hinting heavy or not from I would guess women
that eventually the credit ends up going to these men.
And the fact that you were saying that the mother
was dead in the original draft is like a fucking

(36:50):
course she was. And it's just another example of like, Okay,
the woman's going to actually know the right thing to do,
but someone else is going to get credit for it,
and just I'm gonna flip. It's very frustrating. Yeah, I
just ran. Can we talk about the climax of it? Yeah,

(37:12):
ninety she realizes, uh, he says, you have to return
the heart to the spiral, and so she goes and
she makes she's running from Taka the fire Monster, and
she runs up to the top of the island chain

(37:34):
and she looks and sees that it's missing, and then
she looks at Taka and sees that there's a spiral
on her chest. And when you're watching a scene, you
can kind of see leading up to them that it
has a human form, the monster, but also a very
feminine form totally, and so you she realizes that it is.

(37:58):
It is is is t and bawling, and she just
like she sings this Lulla by this, this mournful song
saying I'm sorry you were hurt, you were victimized, and
I'm here to make that good again. And I know
who you are, right right, and she listens like I

(38:23):
was so prepared. Again. I feel like you're conditioned by
these types of movies for that villain to be killed
and not somehow reformed or revealed to have good qualities.
Because the lava monster again to hark him back to
another princess movie, vaguely reminded me of the part in
The Little Mermaid where Ursula gets huge, where she steals

(38:44):
the ground. She's like, I'm huge now, and she gets
harpooned by a man by by Prince Eric, the hottest prince,
and and she dies and then everything is fine. But
this seemed like, Okay, here's this other monstrous, the villainous
female character, and not only is it resolved by the
female protagonists, but no killing happened. I don't think anyone

(39:09):
is killed in this movie as except the some coconuts.
Coconut is just a broad representation of male violence. It's
a massacre that is a massacre. But another another what
I thought was like more Indiana Jones illusions were when
they're finally escaping the Coconut pirates there two of their

(39:30):
ships start to collide and they have to escape through them,
which is what happens in Last Crusade. And I was like, yeah,
now that you say that, I'm sorry to keep going
back to the mother character, but now that you say
that she originally wasn't there, that totally checks out because
she barely play. That was one thing I noticed where
every all the criticism of like Moana, don't go it

(39:50):
is from the dad. And so it makes sense that
that mother was sort of written out because we have
a few moments between her and Moana, but nothing plot
changing her significant that I can think of. Most of
the oppositional forces her dad. It is her mother who
gives her, almost gives her permission to leave, that brings her,
brings her food for the journey and says, right, maybe

(40:12):
even doesn't she She comes in, Yeah, she comes in,
and she sees mo wanna packing for this trip that
she has to go on, and like realizes what's about
to happen, and we as audience might expect Oh, she's
about to try to dissuade her from this or tell
her she can't go, and instead she like gives her
gesture like, yes, here you go, here's the maybe you need.
She understands the drastic nature of of what's happening to

(40:36):
their islands dying, and the father will would have just
let it die. The chief would have just let them
all die. Male pride. Yeah, Basically, the metaphor I came
up with is that the heart was is the e
p A and all the men in the story are
like the Republicans, who are like, we don't need this. Well,

(40:56):
it doesn't matter that the world is dying. We're fine.
And I think a white man wrote it wild. At
the end, I would like to say that Molana receives
a Georgia O'Keefe seashell, that she the conch shell, the
vagina conch. Yeah, it was beautiful. I was like, I

(41:18):
it's perfect that this movie ends on a beautiful vaginal note.
I liked it a lot. They did not need to
make a pink However, they're like, you know what they
should look like? I think that's what look like. They're
usually they're sometimes white on the outside and pink on
the inside. But this was like just like like you
could also see this is a pus yeah, and the

(41:41):
shell did come just squirted salt water. I was like,
all right, we get it. Movie. Yeah. Molana fucking rules.
She's the best UM. I like that she's such an
empowered character that they didn't need to give her the
standard best friend character um, which I feel like a

(42:02):
lot of Disney princesses have, is like a female friend
to be like, hey, you're great, and you know, Mohanna
is great, and that just comes across. We don't need
this ancillary person to be like like you're hot, Yeah,
we like you. It's like, of course we like you,
You're Mohanna. And she knows it too. She's so confident
she screams, I am Moanna. I was like, oh god,

(42:23):
I want that for one second or I feel that way.
She's confident, but it's also balanced by, like, like I said,
the self doubt that she has about like is this
mission the thing that I'm supposed to be doing? Am
I capable of this? Which is just very realistic. It
just shows that she's a dynamic, well written, interesting character
and not just like what a lot of Disney Princesses
have Been, which is pretty just one dimensional and flat

(42:44):
and boring. One of my favorite moments of the film,
and it's a film, it's a film, is right after
she sings I Am Mo Wanna and she dives down
to at the heart back because she's thrown it into
the ocean like Rose at the end of Titanic, giving

(43:05):
it back. She goes and she gets and she and
it's the music swells and she burst back up and
the music cuts out, and she's the ghost of her
grandmother is gone, her boat is broken, and she is
alone in the ocean, and it is just this beautiful
moment of oh my god, this is still so dangerous
for her, and this is the moment where she has

(43:27):
the most confidence and where she is about to kick ass.
Yet it is stark and quiet and she is alone,
and it was just it's just like a punch in
the gut, but then a like a good a good
punch in the gut, and we have stupid chicken for
like the younger kids who went to see the movie,

(43:48):
who like, aren't it's the ice age squirrel, right yeah,
right there, Like this is a goofy speaking that's the
other that's your voice I can do. Yeah, I stick that. Hey, guys,
I don't know what to do with myself. I uh so.
I did some research on the directors, and I know
we touched on the fact that their straight white men.

(44:09):
But I think their history with Disney is also super
interesting because they also directed, um, I guess what is
considered the second most groundbreaking Disney Princess movie, which is
Princess in the Frog, first African American Disney Princess. So
I guess it sort of makes sense that they were
selected to do this other female progressive movie. I would

(44:32):
also argue Brave did a lot of great things, so
I thought that was interesting. And then years and years back,
they directed both The Little Mermaid and Aladdin, which I
think we've referenced in different ways in both of these.
So one of the interesting things that the that the
screenwriter talked about is it John Wills. Is that his name? John?

(44:54):
Let me look it up. It's yeah, the one who's
who's kind of credited John Muska. Oh oh wait, No,
that's one of the directors, Jared Bush. Yes, that is right,
Jared Bush. Okay, I said John Wilson, it was I
don't know who John Willson's, but one of the things
he was saying was they Disney overall because they had

(45:15):
these basically patriarchs of the of Disney animation, we're working
on this project, that they wanted to have some of
that kind of old school Disney animation in the film,
and so specifically it was their idea that when during

(45:36):
your Welcome the song, when it switches to both two
D animation and three D animation, that was their owed
to kind of harkening back to that time because they
were so good with it. I that's so fun because
I remember thinking when we were watching that that that
number vaguely reminded me of friend like me when they
kept switching to different backgrounds, and that sort of carried

(45:58):
through as oh that and they were the directors of Lennon.
There you go. Also, we've got to talk about lin
Manuel Miranda love Hamilton's as a person. I think lin
Manual Miranda is so obnoxious, hate watching him talk, respect
the funk out of his work. And that is my
stance on Linden wal Miranda. But um, I would like

(46:19):
to take a moment to brag and say I once
went to a college party Miranda. Wait where he is
that Emass and his his improv team Freestyle of Supreme
there his beat boxer went to you mass and so
they came back. Course he has a beef boxer. Uh so,

(46:44):
I don't remember anything about him from the party, but
I remember he was there. That's pretty cool, and that's
really and I loved in the Heights. His first musical
is so good and he's so good in it. But
he's just as with any major figure, it reaches the
point where it's like, Okay, you're too present, Like take

(47:04):
a step back, pulling Adele, have a baby, you know,
get your life to get Yeah, take a step back
and then come back and we'll be like, oh, we
missed this guy right now. It's like, get out of
my targeted ads. I'm sick of this. But uh no,
he didn't write all the songs. He wrote some of
the songs in this movie, and I feel like you
can sort of tell exactly what they are once you

(47:25):
know that he wrote on this movie like You're welcome,
like stinks of one Manua Miranda and his style um
in a good way. It's stinks of him. Can we
talk about top knots in this movie. Yes, I loved
the role of top Knots in this movie. What is
the hairstyle of Like when it made sense for Moanna's

(47:48):
hair to be out of her face, it was fucking
out of her face. It was great. Same with Little
I had no idea. Let's let here beef cake top
Now that's the name of my new really bad improfive. Yeah,
beef cake top not I one of the things. This

(48:09):
is a little off topic, but going back to the
beginning of the story where she's poised as she's going
to be the next chief even though she's a woman,
she's a girl. Um never usually yeah, never questioned. She's
just like, you're our daughter. You're going to be the
chief because you're the daughter. So it's never like, oh
but you're a woman, so you need to marry a

(48:31):
boy so that he can be the chief introduced right exactly. So, UM,
I love that. That's just never a thing that's brought up.
It's just like, yeah, you're the chief because you're the
descendant of the current chief. Doesn't have anything to do
with your gender. UM love that. And you see her
making she's like kind of in training when she before

(48:53):
she leaves, Uh, the island to go off on the journey,
and she's like making important decisions about the crowd. These
trees are diseased, so we have to plan a new
growth over there, and here's all my suggestions about how
we can fish differently and all this stuff, and she's
like giving sound advice and really like making important decisions.
And it was just like so refreshing to see she was, Yeah,

(49:15):
she was never really questioning herself. Ye she only really
started to question herself when she got into the ocean,
when she explicitly had her father's and that not opposite
of permission and that and that made sense in context
because she genuinely did not know what she was doing
at the first time. Where it's not like she's not
doubting herself because she's a woman. She's doubting herself because

(49:37):
she doesn't know what she's doing, ever done this before,
And then when she figures it out, that doubt more
or less goes away. So that was dope. Another thing
I wanted to point out is that it's so seldom
that when there's sort of like a chosen one in
a story, it's almost always a man. Harry Potter, you

(49:58):
got your yea Neo from the Main Tricks. You got
your uh, your Frodo Baggins is in your diminutive men
are chosen as the one. Yeah when uh the second
time I watched this, I watched it with my boite
friend and halfway through he was like, oh, so this
is Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, it's it's Star Wars. Yeah.

(50:21):
I mean it's like in the hero's journey my kind
of sense, a classical call to adventure, but so often
it's the man who's is doing that. It's so just
again so refreshing to see it is a woman, because
we so rarely see that. Although I do when someone
says chosen one, I do automatically think of Buffy. But
that's because Buffy hit me real hard at a very

(50:44):
specific age, and so that's just stuck with me. I
think I think it is cool that because this when
you met it out, it really is a very very
very standard hero's journey, but a hero's journey that is
usually for a male character. Like it's not a princess's journey.
It's a hero's journey, which I mean, I don't know.

(51:06):
If this were a story about a man, it would
be boring, it would not be super interesting to see
a man be like I can do things, but sometimes
I'm said, you know, but when we see Moana do it,
it's it's so crazy and like reflective of our own
culture that we're like, what, this is the coolest thing ever.
Because if we made her a man, I don't know

(51:27):
how much I would have liked this movie. Probably not
that much. It would have just okay, cool, Yeah, another one,
good for you. She really didn't have any major flaws
that were, you know, kind of preyed upon for story
or or as false of her own. Do you think
that's a bad thing or an okay thing? I don't.
I don't have any problem with it in this movie.

(51:49):
I mean, I'm the only person who really goes after
her is Maui, and she's gone. She's gone after mostly
for youth and an experience, and I feel like that's
the most commonly I did thing of He doesn't toss
her out of the boat to certain death because she's
a woman, per se, rather because he doesn't see value
in her skills, because she's he keeps saying, because you're mortal,

(52:11):
very human, right right. Regardless, she is tossed out of
a boat multiple time, I left to die constantly like yeah, yeah,
the ocean saves her tat. He gets the tat of
her at the end, like aspiration. There's a couple so
when the coconut pirates attack them, um, the coconuts, there's

(52:34):
a couple of different times where she either saves Maui
or saves herself or and then towards the end of
that scene or that sequence, she's like, all right, you're
not gonna help me. I'm gonna go do it. And
she has to be the one because she knows coconuts.
She knows coconuts. Now they're just sentient. Yeah, it's interesting.
It's when when they were far away and when they

(52:56):
were lots of them, and when they were approaching and
they were menacing, she was scared. And then when she
found out that they were coconuts, she lost her fear
and she was like, oh, I can handle that. I
can handle this. Even though they still were dangerous. It
still were shoots, coconuts, head darts, and knives. They're also
talk about like and not to take away from the

(53:17):
value of the coconuts as characters, uh, not that that
scene could have easily been taken out, but that was
For me, that was like, what a what an excellent
marketing move. Let's introduce these adorable emoji like characters that
are slightly violent but ultimately very cute that we can
put on a backpack. Like it was. I think when

(53:37):
we were watching it, I equate them completely to the
aliens in the Alien Toys and Toy story of just
like you're cute things that people will be like, oh
my little the Coconut Boys movie can make more money
and merchandise. Give boys, give little alien backpack. That that said,

(54:02):
I would get a backpack of the Coconut Voice. I
have a whole collection of the figurines. True, there was
the one part of the movie that felt like, oh
this is this feels like for kids? That could have
been Yeah, that's also the kids movie, so that's okay, true, true, true,
that was Yeah. That was the one scene that I
was like, how different would the movie be if that were?

(54:24):
You know, there's so many scenes for Moanna takes action
an agency that I feel like that's the the emoji
coconut scene that was for the backpacks. Can we talk
about her going to the Monster Realm? Yes, yes, yes,
because it's it again. She is told to stay put,

(54:44):
but she's she's not going into the monster realm, and
she immediately follows him up this giant uh made of
these pillars like the giants causeway, and goes there and
then he's like, all right, are you going to jump
in with me? Doesn't think she's going to, and then does,
which is awesome, and it was very scary and all

(55:05):
these cutes great like scary crazy monsters. And then we
meet this like amazing crab who is another version of
greed and masculinity in the in this pompous way, but
also in a very lovable way. Yeah, what a lovable
villain song. U Soyland songs are always the best Disney song,

(55:30):
always always. I was worried. I mean, I was telling you.
I was like, is there not a Dylan song just
because song? Where's the best song? This is a this
is a great song. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Dan
crushes it. He's so sexy. How many times so I
guess so he's the horniest person alive every time he

(55:51):
speaks or especially when he sings. I'm just like, you're
for sure rock hard. Like how he's seing this song
as a crab, He's like for sure, arex Are you
sure that's not just how he makes you feel? No,
I don't get an I'm a sexless being. I don't
see sex, but I'm a person of sex. I'm a

(56:15):
person of sex. But like I don't see sex. But
but he's he's extremely he's deeply horny. And in that scene,
it's Mowanna who saves the day. Again. She does not
get horny. She does she does not get distracted by
sexual glam rock at play. She staves Maui and she

(56:40):
it allows them to escape. This is another example of
one of the very few movies with a woman lead
that the stakes are life and death, because so often
if there's a female lead in a movie, it's a
rom com, where like the stakes are very low. Am
I going to get a date? Right? And there's a
sky gonna fall in love with me? Um? And the

(57:02):
stakes are related mostly to men, And the stakes were
not related to men, they were right, I mean people.
I feel like a lot of times with like the
Princess movies too, it's like the biggest risk for the
female character is just going back to where she started,
where like had a Laddin not swept Jasmine off rr

(57:23):
feet she would just still be a princess. She'd be
married to that prince Ahmed who was a jerk with
sunch a punk, and then Ariel. If she couldn't get
Eric to kiss her in three days, she well, I
guess she would have turned into a weird ursula shrub.
I guess that was a little bit higher stakes bell,

(57:43):
But she risked her whole life for him. The whole
thing starts because she has a bone for Eric, which
get it, but grow up, grow up. But it's I
think it's the show years old. I'm not a child. Yeah,
they're both sixteen because the sixteen So it's nice to
show I wasn't sexual at sixteen. I was thinking about things,

(58:07):
but I didn't know what. I had no tangible idea
of what sex actually was. Moana is a much more
relatable character to me because I didn't get my first
kiss until I was sixteen. It was scary. I didn't
know what interaction felling. I was like, oh no, wait,
why was your first on him? I don't know it

(58:27):
was on him? It was it was I think he
told this story. You guys were standing on a rock
or something. Bona rock was standing on bona rock as
it was henceforth known as and the first saxophone player
of the band was like, I think you're great. I
was like, and then he kissed me. And then I
was like, what's going on? Because we stood up and

(58:48):
we should not have stood up. But also there I
was so under educated about sex that the first time
someone went down on me I was horrified and thought
it was his idea, like he had made it up.
He did oral sex and a woman because I was,
you know, it was what like seventeen eighteen, he wasn't
good at it and it was happening. I was just
remember thinking like this is dev and behavior, Like why

(59:12):
would someone do this? I am? I'm just I feel
far away from the action. Do you not learn about
I feel it? I did not get sex education. All
I got like abstinence plus education, but I think they
mentioned oral sex. Yeah, the first time someone went down
at me, I was I fully I consulted someone younger

(59:32):
than me. I consulted as sophomore in high school. It's like,
have you ever heard of this? Like what or do
I need to call the police? And she's like, no,
that's exxtremely common and actually is considered like maybe a
good thing, and I was like, oh, okay, well I
don't want it again, but glad that I don't need
to call an ambulance for myself. I wish i'd called

(59:54):
the cops. Um someone's faces on my vagina and I
don't like it. Patrol car. There's a moment. There's a
moment where Mohanna has to stroke Maui's frail old male

(01:00:14):
ego because he's like, I'm not Mallie with all my
hook and she's like, just grow up, yeah, and she yeah,
he just well, I mean, I would argue he sort
of does the same thing for her when she's feeling insecure. Uh,
not to say he is like this terrific character, but

(01:00:35):
I think that that is almost a mutual thing. Where
there are times in the movie where Mohanna needs to
be pumped up a little bit and made you stre confident,
and the grandmother character serves as that boost a lot.
But there is at least one instance where Maui is like, no,
you know what, you're doing a good job, and you're
ready and you're capable. It doesn't come to later in
the movie. It takes him a long time. That didn't
bother me too much that she encouraged him once that

(01:00:58):
almost felt like I didn't bother me. I'm merely just
pointing it out. That is a thing that needed to
happen because he needed to return. It's very fragile egos
that need. And he owed her more than he owed her,
more of like a boost than she ever owed him
because he is not great to her. Oh he again.
I love Mauie. I'm so glad everything works out at

(01:01:20):
the end, But if it wasn't the rock, he gets forgiven,
he gets elated into being this demigod again, and forgiven
because he helps Molanna restore the heart to Tafiti, which
is which is great, But it is interesting that Taffiti
forgives him and gives him his hook back, gives him

(01:01:43):
a new hook. And I think that is incredibly female,
not just forgiveness, but forgiveness on such an incredible scale
because he he doesn't really deserve it, and even at
the end, Molanna has to like hit him to like
bow to her respect. And it's and we're supposed to

(01:02:04):
have empathy for him because his parents tried to kill
him or threw him into the ocean when he was
a baby, and then he was saved by God's and
it's like, if that isn't such a male narrative, I
don't know what is the same thing happened to Shrek.
It's like, because of this, because of this horrible thing
that happened to you very early on, you immediately got

(01:02:27):
incredible power. And then you abused it and abused it
and abused it, and we're punished for it and are
now punishing the world trying to get it back. That's
a Shrek narrative. If ever, Shrek is isolated by his
parents at a very young age, as is the Ogre tradition,
strikes out on his own establishes his own swamp. To
his credit, you know, he comes from nothing. He's guys

(01:02:49):
own swamp. Now he's a small business owner. He's a
small business owner. He's guys own swamp. He build a
life for himself. But he's kind of mean, he's kind
of resentful towards the world, and he's a bully to
all the other fairytale creatures. And then you know, and
then there is the movie takes place. Yeah, kind of
Shrek narrative. Yeah, Shrek another beefcake, but it's I mean,

(01:03:10):
it's a relatable narrative both for men and women ogre
people oger Americans as we call them. Right. Bottom line
is that all of her actions and her choices drive
the narrative throughout the entire movie. Like everything she's doing

(01:03:32):
it has a consequence, it has a bearing on the story.
She is the driver of the vehicle that is the plot,
and like you mentioned before, she's the one who determines
the outcome of the story. Like she's the one who
more stores at heart and like more often than not,
it's like a man who's throwing a wrench into things
rather than swooping in as a savior like Maui. For

(01:03:53):
the most part, he he does play a role, and
he does help, and there's teamwork, but more often than not,
I feel like he presents the problem. Yeah, he's They're
often to create obstacles for her. One of the reasons
why I cried so hard when I when I saw
Frozen for the first time and then again when I
saw this, was just thinking about a generation of children

(01:04:17):
of young women who get to see this movie. Yes,
I had the same thought, and it's beautiful and it's
beautiful for them to see Moanna as a hero. But
also to see Maui how to interact with Maui's because
we all you were going to come up against Maui's
for your entire life, and if the lesson of this

(01:04:39):
movie is that you have to grab them by the
ear and tell them what you want and make them
do it. And it's uh in this world that has
to be done. Yeah, it's great how defiant she is
toward him and like and toward her father. Her father
kept being like, don't go off beyond the re if

(01:05:00):
it's too dangerous, and time and time again, she just
and it got to the point where it was it
became the inciting incident where she then ventures off into
the great unknown. But again it's about the ocean with Heroin.
It was cooking, but now let's let's raise the stakes.
He's like no, and she's like, I am naturally inclined

(01:05:23):
to enjoy this beautiful natural element that is blind. Anyway,
why haven't any princess has been addicted to drugs? Where's
that movie? I'll direct it. I My my goal in
my life is to make a movie about conjoined twin
royalty MM and then they try to get separated and

(01:05:43):
like one dies and any inciting incident is that she
got to go and there's a whole I have an outline.
I'll send it to you. Okay, I'll give you. I'll
give you a note thank you. Hey. Here's the thing
I thought this isn't just a dumb fun thought I
had is on the coconut ships, there's this big drum

(01:06:07):
and they're all attached to ropes and they like come
down on the drum and beat the drum. And I
reminded me of mad Max fury Road there ago the
steam punk drum guy. Another fun thing in the outline
of this this Conjoined Twin Princess movie that I've outlined,

(01:06:28):
the Surviving Conjoined Twin is a woman in stem so good,
Oh my gosh. So it really is the most empowering
movie of all time. And she's also a lesbian because
she has to dedicate her life. Also can fly a
plane and she's pretty amazing. That's great. Definitely, it might

(01:06:49):
be extremely bad cool. Does anyone have any like final
thoughts about the movie. I just love it. It's amazing.
It's an amazing movie. I was worried you might not
like it, Jamie could really because you just saw it earlier.
Today and uh so, Yeah, I don't know. I had
hyped it so much that I was afraid that it

(01:07:10):
wouldn't live up to the hype that I had created. Yeah,
I mean I knew you loved it since you saw
it in theaters, but no, I mean, it's like it's
so good on every level, Like we don't even need
to talk about whether it passes the Battel test. It
absolutely does. In the first like ten minutes, I was
talking to a comic who um had seen it and
taken his son see it, and it had been too

(01:07:32):
worked up and they did not like it. Um. And
the thing is, I didn't care. It was like, it's
not for them exactly, It's not for you, And I
don't care. I want little boys to love this movie,
but it's not made for them. See, I think it
is important for them to at least see it and

(01:07:53):
understand them and like at least take away something from
it because it might put a damper on toxic masculinity.
That is part of why the patriarchy is still a thing.
So I think the more you know, little boys can
become enlightened to I mean, I got something from Toy Story,

(01:08:13):
but that movie wasn't made for me? Um right, I mean,
and and we as little kids were forced to see
all fucking manner of male heroes journeys or like this
beautiful French woman's fucking a dog in a suit. Like
we were presented with very few this beauty and the beast.

(01:08:34):
There's like but there's you know, it's I would love
for little boys to be forced to watch Moanna, but
there's so many other options for them where they can
be like, Oh, I'm really I'm great, and I hope
that that goes away. It's hard. I mean it's hard
because I don't know how Moana was marketed, but so often,

(01:08:55):
like these really good, empowering female driven movies are sort
of Barbie marketed to the point where it's like, oh,
if you were you know, the everyday parent, you wouldn't think, oh,
I should bring my little boy to this movie, you know.
And I don't know what the solution to that is.

(01:09:15):
I mean, you can unbarbify it, but I don't know
how much inherent press like prejudice goes into I think
I think having I think Maui's character was kind of
big in every marketing piece. I think they were selling
the rock pretty hard on it. I mean if when
they've got the rock, I do kind of want to
talk about the scenes that passed the backdel test though,

(01:09:37):
um just for one consistency of our podcast and too
because they're great. First one comes when ma Wana and
her mom are talking about Mowanna's desire to just be
out on the ocean and to venture off, and her
dad is mentioned, so but it's not the context of
the conversation is not really about him. It's more about

(01:09:59):
just her desire, her longing to be on the ocean
and in the ocean. Similar conversation happens a little later
on between mo Wanna and her grandmother, where Mama is
talking about putting the stone on the top of the mountain,
which is like symbolic of her accepting her role is
the leader in the chief of the community and she's
questioning like who she's meant to be, and again her

(01:10:22):
dad is mentioned, but again that's not really what the
conversation is about. It's more about like her destiny and
her desires. And then another conversation between her and her
grandma happens. Oh. I think it's just like after she
discovers that her ancestors or voyagers, and her grandmother shows
her at that, right, Yeah, her grandmother's like bang on
the drum and her questions will be answered. And then

(01:10:43):
after that, her grandma's like on her deathbed and that's
when she's like, you have to go find Maui and
tell him to restore the heart. Also, they they do
a rare displacement of the horny grandma trope. This grandma
doesn't get horny? Does she just horny for sea creatures?
That's right, that's God damn it. Because the other grandma

(01:11:04):
character that I can think of, besides Grandmother Willow, who
can't get horny, she has a tree, uh, is the
grandmother in Mulan, who is very horny, also very helpful,
helpful and horny. Well, it's I don't think it's actually
fair to say that she's horny for these stingrays. She
wants to be one and she admires them and doesn't
mean she wants to fun. She's empowered by this stinger. Okay,
I really want to get this grandma every benefit of

(01:11:26):
the doubt because I really love her, and all the
other grandma's besides the tree are horny. Um, Hey, should
we write the movie. Let's do it. So we read
each movie on a scale of zero to five nipples,
and the way you describe the nipples, if we so choose, um,
I'll go first is five great, yeah, which I think

(01:11:50):
might be what I give this movie might nipple movie.
The only thing that would make hesitated about it is
the fact that the filmmakers, the directors, and writers were
white dudes. But that doesn't really seem to have a
bearing on the story the way we might think. So

(01:12:12):
if you're just isolating the narrative itself and not thinking
about the filmmaking aspect of it, it does such a
terrific job representing women in a way that Disney movies, uh,
in movies that young girls are seeing I haven't really
done before. The relationships between the women characters are so

(01:12:33):
wonderful and strong and refreshing to see. Mowanna just has
so much agency, and she's so active in all of
her decisions, and she's just a great, dynamic, multidimensional, very
lovable character. And I ever so much. Five nipples describe them? Well,
I'm not okay five of them at night? So I

(01:12:55):
know that crabs don't have nipples, but five nipples belonged
to Jermaine, Like it's my aust Brand Kitling Britain. Bringemine Britt.

(01:13:15):
I give this movie five nipples as well. I would
be interested if anyone's listening, um in how if anyone
is familiar or integrated into Pacific Islander culture, Um, how
you felt the movie represented that, because I really don't
have a context for that. In a layman sense, it
seemed like it was pretty respectful of the culture. But again,

(01:13:36):
if if you have more or outsiders, I did love
to hear it. I was trying to read about like
whether or not Molana was based on any um folklore
or mythology or anything like that. And Maui and the
different creation stories and stuff like that. It seems that
they took like a combination of different like Polynesian and

(01:13:56):
Pacific Islander things and sort of like molded it into
one thing. And I think there was some criticism about
that from those communities that like, oh, like why did
you mesh them all together? Kind of thing. Disney has
a resort in Hawaii. There was also a Maui costume
that was released that was considered disrespectful and was pulled
from the sheuse a real merch mix up regardless, my

(01:14:21):
I give it five Moana baby nipples. Um, I would
also give up five nipples. Well, Natalie, thank you so
much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you
so much. I think this might also be one of
the first times that all three of us, Jamie and
Caitlin and the guest love the movie that we're talking

(01:14:42):
about genuinely. So thank you for bringing us such an
exciting movie to talk about about. To blast the soundtrack
in my car, Yeah, blast it and cry. I'm roughing
for it. Yeah, I'm so excited. Where can people find
you online? Um? I am on Twitter at Daly Baseman
and um I'm on Instagram too, and I'm off Facebook

(01:15:05):
for mental health and well done. Um My. My Twitter
right now is mostly just retweeting angrily. But my Instagram
my post pictures of things I cook wonderful, perfect. I've
about you, Jamie, do you have anything you wanna mention?
I'm Hamburger Phone on Twitter. You can watch my cartoon
every week on Cafe is called Boston p DS and

(01:15:27):
Bony Crimes Division. It's very funny. That's thank you. Kaitly
watched me make one today. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. It
was so much fun. That's all I've got. You can
follow me at Caitlin Dronte and you can follow the
podcast at bectel Cast. You can also listen to us
on iTunes. You can also rate and review us there.
We really appreciate it when you do that, or and

(01:15:50):
Libson and Google Google too. Also. I don't know if
I use the overcast app for my podcasting needs and
it's amazing and you can get anything on there and
then it's just a quick, a quick hop to iTunes
to rate things. I love it. I love I used
the pot this the standard podcasts iPhone app as well,
and I get a little ping every Thursday morning when

(01:16:11):
it's like, hey remember this thing, remember that thing you did,
It's now available to the public. I love it. So
keep listening. Thank you for listening. We appreciate you, we
value you. You get five out of five nipples. Yes,
you all do. Thanks and bye bye.