Now and Then with Callie Biggerstaff

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello and
welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Toronto
named Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation of

(00:23):
women in films. Yeah, what if this started twenty five
years from now and we were reflecting on how we
used to do the Bechdel Cast and then we always
promised that we're going to continue doing to come back
and come back any time you discourse to be had,
that we would up and start doing it. Jamie, let's
make that pact right now. Truth. Truth? Are you happy? No? Sam?

(00:50):
All right, I guess we're done here. Uh. This is
our funniest movie podcast. We use the Bechdel Test as
our jumping out point for discussion. Beckel Tests, I'm times
called the Bechtel Wallace test is a media metric invented
by cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires that there be two
female identifying characters in a piece of media with names

(01:13):
that talk to each other about something other than a
man for more than two lines of dialogue? Can it
be done? Sometimes? Sometimes in this movie, yeah, quite a bit.
I was. I thought you were about to be like,
it doesn't. I was like, oh my god. I was like,
wait a second, did we see the same movie? O, Well,
you're spoiling it at the top. But I mean, I mean,
I still think that it's really funny whenever someone is like,

(01:36):
so do you just talk about the Becktel test? Like
what would that conversation even sound for an hour and
a half, which is argue with each other like one
text pro when when it's an indisputable thing through every
single line of dialogue in the movie, and be like
does that one pass? No? It doesn't because Michael Shannon
said it. Moving on, Like it's just like what I

(01:57):
think I'm getting into Michael Shannon. Oh well not Live's
Out is a great film. He's good in it. I
didn't really confused him with many other Michaels And you
can't blame me, but I think I'm getting into Michael Shannon.
It does not. But I'm surprised you weren't into him
starting with Shape of Water. I know, well, because I
kept confusing him with Michael Stolberg because it's too close,

(02:20):
too close to name too much Michael representation in that movie.
Just know from me. So yeah, this is the best.
And as always, we have a wonderful guest with us,
certainly today. She's one of my dearest friends. She's a photographer, extraordinary,
she's a circus historian. She's the absolute best. It's Callie Bickerstaff.

(02:44):
Welcome to you. Thanks for having me. Well, we're bringing
We're doing a movie that you were very very passionate
about recommending. And I was like, well, just come on
and talk about it because you're like, when are you
going to do it? Now? In an episode? So have
all of our fans everyone. I did not know that

(03:05):
this thing existed and I will disappoint and the website. So, Kelly,
what's your history with now? And I think I watched
in the theaters and I think, and I told you
this that I remember watching it and Demi Moore was
smoking and I was like, oh that is cool, and
rewatching it, I was like, I definitely started smoking because

(03:27):
of this, which is influential, Oh my god, but cool
at the time. Um, but yeah, I think to me
it seemed like like the sand Lot, stand by me,
merge for ladies. I don't know, but it was a
sweet teenage film for me. I think it's cute. I mean,
it has its moments, and it has it's like camaraderie thing.

(03:48):
There's personality for everyone in there, I think. And problematic parts.
Oh yes, we'll talk about what what some some be
phrased Brent and also is not credited in the movie.
I was. I watched it all the way through with
the credits. I paused because, like how because I was

(04:08):
playing this game I play with myself sometimes called how
high in the credits is Brendan Fraser because depending on
the year, it really fluctuates, right, And in this movie
he's not credited at all. Incredible. I know, Caitlyn, what's
your history? And now? And then? I grew up with
this movie, although I will say that I have not
seen it in probably twenty or more years, not unlike

(04:34):
the span of time between when we see them as
girls and when we see them as adults, you're now
and then ing now and then exactly that is true.
Um so I hadn't rewatched it, probably since I was
around the age of the characters, which is twelve, But
Prior to that, it wasn't a movie that we ever
had like on VHS at at my house or anything.
But it is a huge, like girls sleepover staple movie.

(04:57):
So I would go to sleepovers and it would be
on all the time. So I would watch this movie
often at sleepovers and I always rather enjoyed it. But again,
I haven't seen it in many, many years. What's your history, Jamie.
I think this is one of those weird movies that
it came out. It's like our age gap was not large,

(05:17):
but it I did not know this movie existed until
Callie told me it was on Netflix. I didn't know
that it existed. I told I did not know it
was the genre of movie it was. I don't know
who was in it, Yeah I was. I mean I
was like two when it came out, so I didn't
see it. It just missed me. So I watched it

(05:39):
to prepare for this episode. And you know, I love
female representation. This is I feel bad because I like,
I did the same thing on the The Little Woman
episode and you're like, it's wonderful coming of age. I
love it, but coming of age for anyone of any gender,
it can be kind of boring, not always the most

(06:00):
fun thing to watch, especially when like this group of
young women, they don't have actual I mean well, I
would say maybe one of them has problems that are significant,
but most of them are like, oh no, like it's
just very You're like, oh, okay, they're going to be fine,
and then we see that, guess what. They're fine. They're fine,
They're fine, everyone's fine. Sure, I mean the stakes, not

(06:21):
the stakes, but they rarely are incoming of age stories.
I think that just comes with the territory. Yes, it's
not my genre, I see, but yeah, so my history
is I watched it. Good great, good history. But this
is a widely beloved movie. I would say one of
our top requests of all time. We've gotten this request

(06:44):
more frequently than almost any movie. So let's dive in,
shall we. Let's do it. I've got the recap. Here.
We meet the four main characters, who are Roberta. She's
played by Christina Ricci as a youth and by Rosie
O'Donnell as an adult. Teeny is Thora Birch and Melanie Griffiths.
Samantha is Gabby Hoffman and Demi Moore, and Chrissie is

(07:08):
Ashley asketon More and Rita Wilson. It's crazy that everyone
like hitters, hitters, hitters in the task and you couldn't
have known that the child stars we're here there they were.
I mean, yeah, every person in this movie delivers a

(07:29):
pretty phenomenal performance. I would say, especially Brendan Fresher. I
could go on about that for hours. There's so many
What is what is this trope of? Because we just
covered it in Home Alone as well of like, you
know that neighbor that you get bad energy from who's
terrifying to you, you should talk to them. I'm like,

(07:52):
what the kind of lesson is that? I know what
they're going for, but it could lead to death potentially. Yeah,
it's the it's the Boo Radley trope. It is. Yeah,
so with this movie it is present, I know, and
I'm like, I don't want to discourage people from talking
to their elders people and and become being empathetic and

(08:16):
but in the same token, there is actually do talk
to strangers, especially if they are going to save your life.
I also, what do they call the neighbor in this movie?
Crazy pete? Okay, I think he killed his family. That's
my hottest. I think that dear Johnny is the new

(08:37):
his wife in terms of gravestone lad absolutely. And I
think that Pete killed his family and feels really bad.
I did have that thought as well. Really like the
way he's presented. I mean, he has a heroic moment
he saves Christina Ricchie from the gutter. It's y. I
also struggled with that because they look very similar as children.

(08:59):
I think it killed his family for sure, not he's
living with the I'm like, what about okay? It makes
it sound like he was a suspect in the murder
because he says to them, oh, I don't like seeing
people and people don't like seeing me. I was like,
because you went to trial, Like, I think that maybe
they should have looked at more micro fusion figured out

(09:22):
like was he a top suspect for this because they
don't say who killed They don't they don't ever find
out who killed. But but he was the one to
discover the bodies. And I don't remember what movie it
is that I just saw, and it actually might be
nives out that the character says you always look at
the person who found the body as a suspect. Is

(09:43):
that I think it's that in like others an other,
but like I was thinking of the staircase because I
was always thinking about the staircase. Yeah, the nineteen forties
way easier to cover up a murder. Also, and he's
and when he was like I shouldn't have been at
that bar, I was like, oh, you killed your family

(10:04):
in a drunken frenzy. And Melanie Griffith is sending him
money for years, this murderer. That is a pretty hot take.
Thank you so much. Anyway, So what is the movie about?
So um, We first see these characters as girls in
nineteen seventy and Shelby, Indiana. They're best friends. We see
them playing Red Rover. Then we cut to them as adults.

(10:27):
They are getting together because they had made a pact
that whenever they needed each other, they would be there
for each other. And right now Christie needs them to
be around because she is about to have a baby.
So we see um teeny. That is again Melanie Griffith,
she is a famous actress. Uh Roberta is Rosie o'donnald
she's an o b g y n. And Samantha Demimour

(10:50):
is a sci fi novelist and also the narrator of
the movie. So then we cut back to them in
the summer of nineteen seventy when they are twelve. We
get little glimpses of their lives, like Samantha's parents are
fighting a lot, and then her dad will eventually leave.
Roberta doesn't like how big her boobs are getting, so

(11:10):
she tapes them down. Um. She lives with her dad
and brothers because her mom died when she was four. Um.
Tina is the only child. She has rich parents who
are never around. She likes to dress up and be glamorous,
and Chrissie, whose mom is played by Bonnie Hunt, comes
in and gives her the sex talk, but she uses

(11:32):
very coded language about flowers and watering cans. Um. Then
we meet the Wormers, this group of den This is
the same year that Casper comes out, which is another
romance between Devin Sawa and Casting Lazy Casting Alert Senior rules. Yes,

(12:00):
I like her a lot, but they are this group
of I think brothers who tease and torment the girls.
They're throwing water balloons full of green jello at them.
The leader is Scott Devin Sawa and the girls they're
saving up money to buy a treehouse. They're twenty three
dollars away. We see them at a diner reading Cosmo.

(12:21):
Their server is will Adine Janine Garoffalo. Great bizarre. We're like, yep,
the two scenes feels about right for this character. What
is going on? So then the girls are like, let's
do a seance. They go to the cemetery. They see
the grave of Dear Johnny or Dear Johnny Johnny his

(12:43):
wife Dear Johnny large font, large large font. Because we
find out the character's real name, the boy's real name,
which is Jonathan Sims, but that is not what's on
his gravestone. On his gravestone says dear Johnny all caps.
And this I will say predates the rock by a year.

(13:03):
So true. Idea was literally Michael Bay saw now and
then and stole There's no way Michael based on now
and then. He was like, more than one woman's in
it and she's clothed, skipping it like there's no way
he saw it. But I like this theory. Dear Johnny.
It's such a like prop tub stone. Really yeah, um,

(13:29):
So dear Johnny died when he was a child in
the nineteen forties, and they think they've conjured up his spirit.
I also believed that they had conjured up his spirit.
It was pretty because like lightning strikes a nearby tree
and in the craft energy from it whend is blowing.

(13:49):
It's very was a cop out. My guess was that
he came later that night after they had left, and
then bro the They were both right, I think, so
I thought there was really a magic a foot, and
I was disappointed when it was revealed. They're like, anyways,
magic isn't real. Fast forward twenty five years. You're like, oh,

(14:13):
that's uh, that's so disappointing. Um. And then they also
see Crazy Pete as they call him, and he's riding
around on his bicycle and they freak out and they
run away. And then I think it's later that night
or maybe the following night, but what seems like a
ghostly presence comes into Samantha's room, so she rounds up
the girls and they go back to the cemetery, and

(14:34):
this is when they find out that dear Johnny's grave
has been smashed, and they think that he's definitely out
and about just hanging around town. Um, how as ghosts do,
and they want to learn more about dear Johnny's death,
but they have to ride their bikes to the nearby
town of Greenfield to go through their old newspaper archives.

(14:56):
On the way, they stopped for some lunch. They play
truth or Dare They talk of sex. Chrissie again doesn't
really know how sex works, because she's talking about flowers
and watering cants and they kind of they laugh at her.
It's cute. Yeah. Then a bird ships on Chrissie's head,
so they go to a pond to wash it off,

(15:17):
and they go swimming. Roberta fakes her death as a joke.
Chrissie gets really mad at her and punches her in
the face. There's a lot of punching. I can't wait
to talk about all the punching, and I'm not even kidding.
And then they see the wormer's skinny dipping nearby, so
they steal their clothes as payback from the jellow attack.
They finally make their way to the library. They go

(15:38):
through the old newspapers. Roberta sees a clipping about her
mother's car accident that caused her death and discovers that
it was more painful and prolonged than her dad had
led her to believe so sad because he she is
amazing in those scenes too. It's like, how old did
she She's like eleven and giving that kind of I
think she's actually like fifteen when he was filmed. Yeah,

(16:02):
she's a little bit older than her character. I might
be a little off, but I think she's older four Okay.
And then they do find something about Jonathan Simms in
the newspapers, but a lot of the pages have been
torn out Jonathan Sims do you mean? And so they're like, oh,
someone wanted to keep this information a secret. On their

(16:23):
way home from the library, they run into Brendan Fraser,
who is a Vietnam War event. Scene is a lot.
It's a lot like it's going for something, and then
it takes You're just like, don't give them cigarettes. What
do you do it? He's a hippie that he starts
smoking cigarette. Yeah. I was like, yeah, if he's doing it,

(16:45):
Demi Moore is doing it, I'm gonna do it bad.
That's bad. So they're still curious about Dear Johnny, Dear Johnny. Um.
So they go to will A Dean who is witchy,
and she does a tarot reading and the result of
which implied that dear Johnny was murdered. Then there's the
softball game. I want to talk all about this scene.

(17:07):
There's more punching. Girls are punching some more and totally
it's like everything that I didn't like about the sand lot,
the opposite happens. It's great. It's very satisfying. Child baseball scene. Yes, um.
And then Samith and Teeny have a heart to heart

(17:29):
in their new tree house, which they now have. We
didnt see them getting it, but they made Yeah. And
then Teeny gives Samantha a friendship bracelet, but on their
ride home, it falls off and goes down a storm drain,
and this is when Samantha goes into the sewer to
retrieve it, but she gets stuck because it starts raining

(17:51):
really hard. But luckily, crazy Pete shows up and saves her.
Uh and then they interact with him a little bit.
This is kind of a side note, but the tree
house they wanted to buy was a hundred dollars adjusted
for inflation. That is an eight hundred fifty dollar treehouse
that they were saving up for. No wonder it took
so long, yeah, eight hundred. I mean it was a

(18:13):
nice treehouse. God, that's rent. Yeah, anyways, we should all
live in a treehouse. You don't need to pay a
super nice treehouse. I would that they brought an infant
into that treehouse and it's very started. It's still there
twenty five years later. How did they get that baby
up there? How did they do that? How did they

(18:33):
get the treehouse up there? Also? That would have had
been like a crane or something, and it must have
taken days. Yeah, I don't know where parents involved. We
don't know. We skipped that entire involved in this movie.
Where aren't parents there there occasionally, but parents are not
painted in a very good light in this movie in general.
That is kind of what you don't mind. So, speaking

(18:58):
of parents, we see the girl's going to Samantha's grandmother's
house to look through her a gambling Chlorus Leachman. She
loves poker, and she wears a wild hairpiece. She that's
her classic wighead. I love it. That scene was both

(19:19):
not necessary and really fun. I don't think anything happens
in that scene really. She's like, oh well, she sort
of says like, oh, I know about dear Johnny, but
I can't tell you about it anyways, gotta go, and
that's basically but then they sneak into the sneak into
the attict and then find out more information about dear Johnny,

(19:39):
which is that he and his mother had indeed been
murdered and they were just the bodies were discovered by
Jonathan's father, Peter sa Um, but we don't make the
connection quite down my spot. And then Roberta, who had
been been like keeping the grief about her mother, kind
of bottled up. Let's it all out and starts crying

(20:02):
another great perform Samantha's Grandma's mirror. Oh yeah, that's chlorus.
Lea is going to find that, like, probably not that day,
but at some point, And I would be scared if
I were her, I wouldn't guess it was Christina Ricci.
She's like, how did this mirror get shattered? Ghosts, ghost
heavy ghost, dear Johnny Johnny um. And this is when

(20:25):
they make the pact that they will always be there
for each other. It's nice, it is nice. And then
they have another sance to put dear Johnny back to rest,
and then we see like his headstone is floating towards them,
but it turns out it's just the graveyard worker installing
the new headstone after he had knocked it over with
his tractor. And then the girls leave um, but Samantha

(20:47):
see's crazy. Pete goes back in and talks to him,
and then she realizes that he is Peter Sims, the
father of Dear Johnny. Uh. And he's always in the
cemetery because he's like paying his respects to his family
that he may remain him. I think he's kind of
like kind of getting off on it a little bit
revisiting and he's like, it's crazy. He goes there every night,

(21:08):
like crazy, I got away with that. It just I can't,
Dear Johnny, I can't believe that I got away with it.
Also never visiting his wife's grave stuff where his wife,
his wife, just Dear Johnny there. And then we cut

(21:30):
to the present with the adults and Christie's and labor.
They go to the hospital she has the baby, and
then afterwards they're all in the tree house and they're
talking about, you know, whether or not they're happy with
their lives. They're talking about the struggles that they're okay.
The ending questions, the series of questions is fascinating because

(21:53):
we find out we asked Demi Moore if she's happy,
she's she's not. We ask Rita will Us, and she's happy.
She is. We asked Rosie O'Donnell how big her boobs are?
And she doesn't answer. We asked Melanie Griffith, nothing. She
tells us she has a boob job. That's the check
in five years later, good round up and you're like sure, yeah, yeah, okay,

(22:20):
I guess we know what characters we were supposed to
care about the I was surprised that we didn't like
revisit Rosie o'donnald's character because in the in the flashbacks,
or I mean, most of the movie is the flashback,
but like, I feel like we spend a lot of
time with her character as a kid and then don't
really have any interest in her as an adult. Like
they're just sort of like, yeah, she's dating someone and

(22:43):
she's happy. How big are her boobs? Though? And you're like, what,
here's my guests. Um. I learned through my research that
her character was written as an out lesbian, but it
didn't test well with audiences, So I'm guessing any part
about that was cut with there were other scenes. This
is like part speculation but if there were other scenes

(23:03):
where we got to know her more as an adult,
they may have been cut for that reason. That's such
a bummer I found. I found an interview with the
writer I'm Marlene King a k A mss pretty Little
Liars herself saying stuff to that effect, and it's like
a bummer. I mean, I hope that those scenes existed,
and it kind of and not including it kind of

(23:24):
makes some of the coding that they try to do
with varying degrees of success, I think ring in this
kind of bizarre way because then you flash forward and
they're like, she's with someone. Don't worry about it, bigary boobs,
Okay bye. Is she a nurse in the future, Um No,
she's an okay, because I was just like, should she

(23:45):
be delivering the baby? Okay? She she's a doctor. That's legal.
That's good, friends, you can do it. It's funny. Very
was that a hospital? I don't know. It was like
it didn't really look like right. It looks kind of
like ahow. Also, final note on the birth scene. I
didn't need to see that realistic of a freshly born baby.

(24:07):
It was it was very bloody and blood Rosie o'donald
also covered in blood. I know that that's what it is,
but I watched movies for a reason. Do not see
bloody babies. I like to see babies born fresh and
fresh at three months old. Do you ever wonder gives
their baby for that role and it's like cover it
And I feel like it's usually the production. I feel

(24:32):
like it's like a production baby. Oftentimes two weeks old baby.
Cover it up. You know what we should do? Cover
it in fake blood. Were almost out breathe and it's
freezing on that set. You know, Just hand it to Rita.
I mean, honestly, I would love to be handed to
Rita Wilson as an adult. I have that story old
life that's um anyway, So that they do their truth

(24:57):
or dearek questions and then they make an other packed
to see more of each other, and then they play
red Rover with some neighborhood kids, which is weird. Wonder
the baby, where's the baby at? Is it with that daddy? That? Yeah,
that was there for because he's a dentist. But anyway,

(25:19):
that's how that's the movie. Let's take a quick break
and then we'll be right back. We're back We're back.
As much as I was saying that this movie was
a little boring to me, it reminds me a lot.
I mean, it's interesting. It seems like it is pulling
from movies that existed at that time. And you can

(25:39):
also see kind of its lineage as it goes down,
because there were a lot of parts of this movie
where I'm like, oh, Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants stealing
from now and then at this moment where like a
lot of the scenes where it's the four of them
together in a secret location making a packed You're like, oh,
I see. The production team behind this movie is pretty cool,
pretty legendary. Directed by a woman, famous director, Leslie Lincoln Gladder,

(26:04):
who is directed I think primarily in TV, but she's
directed everything she's did, directing on Twin Peaks. She is
most famous, I think for Homeland, but she directed episodes
of Gilmore Girl. She did greg she did West Wang,
she did Weeds, she did True Blood, she did Pretty
Little Liars because I'm Marilyn King their Friends, she did

(26:25):
a ton of I mean, she's like a legendary director
who is still working all the time. Um, And it's
written by I'm Marline King who her actual names, I know,
Marlene King. I think this was her big break at
the time. This was her first screenplay that was produced,
and I think now she's most famous for Pretty Little Liars,

(26:48):
which is really funny because it is like so like
there was something and now and Then where I'm like, oh,
I'm Marilyne King loves writing scenes where four age or
four girls are in a graveyard planning something, because that's
every scene in Little Liars for ten years. But Little Liars,

(27:09):
I don't necessarily know that it's a feminist text, but
I have seen every episode. I have not seen a
single episode. You can guess what it's like. It's so fa,
I mean, like this is I had no idea that
this was written by her, and I've gone to my head.
Never would guess that Pretty Little Liars and Now and

(27:30):
Then we're written by one and the same other than
if I saw pound for pound the graveyard scenes. But
Pretty Little Liars are usually burying a teacher's body, like
they're not. It sounds like a good show. Yeah, everything
that now and that Now and Then girls want to
happen the prilli Little Liars do every single week. Okay,
they're killing people, they're conjuring people from the dead, they're

(27:50):
doing everything. Wow. Okay yeah. And then also the credited
producers are mostly women. It's also I Marlene King as
well as done more for Todd and Suzanne Todd and
then Eric McLeod yeah, man, the token token male, token producer. Um.
So yeah, it's largely women behind the scenes in the

(28:14):
major creative roles in this movie. So that's something we
do not see very often at all. Yes, so we
love that and it shows. It shows in the way
that the movie is written and frames. I mean there
it was not a female cinematographer I checked. But the
way it's directed is very respectful to its subjects, and

(28:36):
the way it's written is very respectful to its subjects
to Okay, So well, there's a lot to talk about.
As per usual, I wanted to start by just kind
of talking about how this is one of very few
stories we get to see about young girls, a group

(28:57):
of young girls having fun and living life, often being
like tween girls. Uh, It's really not something that's been
explored very much. There are a fair number of like
coming of age stories about women, but they're usually a
little bit older, and I think a lot of the time,
and this movie sort of includes this but doesn't really

(29:18):
harp on it too much. But I feel like a
lot of times you see movies about young girls, it
is focused specifically on like an extreme trauma and that
like young girls are not often allowed to just be,
like you said, like having fun and like living life,
and there's problems there always are, but like I feel
like there, yeah, there is a large amount of teen

(29:39):
girl movies where it's strictly focused on, especially of this age,
like twelve thirteen, because once you get to teenagers, then
it's all about sex and they always objectified a lot.
But in this age, I feel like sometimes you vote
just have like an extreme trauma harped on the entire
I remember the movie thirteen Stable. I mean like movies

(30:00):
like that where it was like, oh my god, where
they're like, hey, young girls, the world is out to
kill you. And so it is like it is kind
of nice to just see girls growing up being people.
They're like, yeah, they're turning into who they want to
be or they're finding themselves. So it's like this weird
in between time where they're like it seems like they're

(30:23):
friends because of their location they're all neighbors, and then
they're all like kind of branching out and finding what
they like and who they are. And it's nice, it's cute.
I think it's sweet because it's also a very relatable,
realistic experience for a lot of people, for very different characters.
My only confusion the whole movie was that I kept
mixing up Christina Richie and Gabby Hoffman and it got

(30:46):
hard for me. I might do it during the podcast too.
That's okay, I'll be here to set everything straight, Thank
you so much. Um. But I just wanted to kind
of talk a little bit about some of the things
we see them doing, because girls in movies usually we
see them doing pretty traditionally feminine things or not doing
anything at all. But in this movie, and there is

(31:08):
some like you know, traditionally feminine stuff we see them doing,
but a lot of it is just pretty neutral because
we see them like riding bikes, swimming, staving up to
buy a tree house eight hundred fifty dollars so much money. Um,
They're doing seances, They're hanging out at a diner. They

(31:29):
sometimes are you know, like talking about boys and sex
and the reading Cosmo. They're exchanging friendship bracelets. But then
we see them like painting a garage door. So we
see like this whole array of just like very normal stuff,
stuff that I did three teen at that age exactly,
And it was just really refreshing to see girls doing
normal things and then like what it felt like a

(31:51):
pretty realistic way. I mean, there was like more that
happened in this movie that I didn't expect. I mean
you saw them hurting each other's feelings sometimes you saw
them uh and and was that like weren't positive, but
we're realistic of like how kids that age make fun
of each other. They were teasing each other. You could

(32:12):
see moments where they wanted to understand each other, but
we're not equipped to understand each other quite yet. Like
just there were all these really cool, like well written
moments of like, oh, I think maybe I blocked that
out for like on that, but it felt Yeah, it
all felt pretty because a lot of what we see
and if there is like a twelve year old girl
in a movie, she's doing the thing that we hate,

(32:33):
which is the precocious child trope where she's like wise
beyond her years and just somehow knows everything about everything
but here we see like very realistic, age appropriate depictions
of these girls, like and yeah, they're not always right.
Sometimes they behave shitty a lot of times they're being
mean to each other. Um, but that is kind of

(32:55):
the human experience, especially when you're that age, and they're
like dealing with yeah, like how she fakes her own
death and she just doesn't know how to deal with it,
and they're just like, don't be an asshole, and but
they don't know how to communicate that quite And I
love the scenes when they're on their bikes, so I
think that's so cute. I love the music. It's yeah
the music track. I grew up in like a suburban town,

(33:17):
I guess, even though it's kind of in l a adjacent,
But we would do that stuff all the time when
I was like twelve, Like there would be like a
crew of girls because you know, it wasn't shitty where
I lived yet, and it was it was awesome. There's
like nobody around. There was no Brendan Frasier's yet, but
you know, there definitely was people that bought a cigarettes,
which is awful. Um. One of the first things you

(33:41):
see in the movie is they're all playing red rover
on their side. It's just the four of them, and
they call over a little boy I forget his name,
but he can't break their bond, symbolizing the friendship that
can't be broken. And then also it's like, oh, these
girls are triumphing over a boy in a game that

(34:03):
tests physical strength, and then we're just like strong female protectives.
We got them. It doesn't ring with the same message
when they do it again five years later, still with
a twelve year old boy, but you know, I get
what they were going for. I would have loved if
they brought back like Devin saw what twenty five years
later to be like run at our arms and he's like, no,

(34:24):
you just you just gave birth. I'm not going to
run at you. Um yeah, I mean. Another thing I
really like about this movie is that, as you said, Jamie, like,
they're characterized very differently. They have very different personalities, which
is kind of remarkable because usually a movie doesn't allow
more than one woman to be in it, and if
there are more than one woman, it's kind of hard

(34:45):
to differentiate them because they're not characterized very well. In
this movie, you get such strong characterizations of all of them,
and we get to know quite a bit about each one.
I think the character we learn least about is Teeny. Yeah,
I would say that's very thing, which I think again
is I mean, and this is a very very very
very very white movie. But I think the only like

(35:08):
one of the only people of color we see is
just kicked out of his own limo and left in
the dust. I was like, Limo driver, they don't even
drive his limo. He's not even allowed to drive his
ow damn limo. But so this is a small victory.
But I think that like a lesser movie would strictly
focus on Teeny and focus on the most like the

(35:31):
most hyperfeminine um of Like, I feel like there's a
tendency of movies to focus on the most hyperfeminine and
sideline characters who were not that we're in this one.
It's the exact opposite where it's kind of I think
that we're supposed to believe. I mean, if Demi Moore's
wardrobe is to be believed supposed to be a weird girl,

(35:53):
which is like, I'm never buying Demi Moore is a
weird girl. But like, I get it. I saw the sunglasses,
but like it focuses. I think onto like like the
quote unquote weird girls, and you see there's a little
bit of body diversity, especially when their kids, where Chrissie
is bigger and she is mercif for it in a

(36:17):
way that like almost turned my my stomach a little
bit because you're like, oh, I you know, like you
see kids be treated like that when you're a kid,
like and and and because at first, when I was
watching the scenes with Christy as an adult, I'm like,
she she's like kind of like being pretty hard on them,
and then you flash back and see how they used
to treat her. I'm like, Oh, she's right, greedy. Wilson's

(36:37):
totally right to be dumping on them. They she's just
getting worthy revenge. Here's I feel like my cousins and
I still do that to each other. Sometimes we're like,
I'm like, why would she just mean to me? And
I'm like, oh, probably because of that thing I did
with the like a thumb print pad into that I
was just I just had an my cousin bring up

(36:57):
an argument we had when we were six results about
one of those ink pads. Yeah, anyways, did you get
in call over her? No? I poured water on her
ink pad by mistake, and then there was no more
ink left in it, and I denied, denied, denied, and
then she got in trouble with her mom because she

(37:17):
had to get a new ink pad, and it was
a whole thing. We're still talking about it today. Apparently
I'm a liar. But I did like how Christie is like,
I'm not fat, and like she sticks up for herself
even though they kind of ras her. She's kind of
like I'm not I like how she's just like I'm
not painting that. I'm like I have to eat every

(37:38):
two hours. I love her character. She's great, Okay, her
friends are pretty cruel to her and behind her back
as well. That was most mad. Likewise, when Teeny and
Samantha Samantha, they're like making fun of Christie behind her
back as well. I'm like, get oh the scene they're

(38:00):
talking about, like if you were on an island and
there's nothing to eat, who of us would you eat?
And she says, Chrissy because she would feed more people. Yeah,
there's quite a few scenes like that. Um, it's so
like cringe e to watch. But you're like, but but
it's like, not like I'm ruling King's like making something up.

(38:20):
It's just it's really it's weird. It's it is conflicting
because it's on one hand, she's like depicting something that
for sure happens, and probably I would guess happened more
in the seventies than it would in nineteen because I
think I'm hoping kids are brought up to be a
little bit more accepting than they were back in the day. Um,

(38:42):
but you know woke kids out there. But um, yeah,
shout out my will kids. Um. I don't have any
children in my own obviously, none of us. But I
mean there's a lot of scenes like that where it's
not only the characters targeting her and being cruel of
her because of her weight, but it also is the
movie the narrative makes some choices which are that like

(39:06):
she when they're like bicycling to Greenfield, which is nine
miles away by the way, we see on a little
sign um that like she's the one who needs to
stop for a break. She's the one who like doesn't
want to participate in the painting of the garage door
because she has to eat when the girls are saving
like swimming really fast because I think Roberta is dead

(39:29):
in the water. She's like struggling really hard to swim
and keep up, like she's always just kind of like
lagging behind. They make her have a head start when
they steal the voice you better there. It's Yeah, I
think that like that it's not as sensitively written as
it should be, which is a bummer because like that
would be if we were a little more thoughtfully written,

(39:50):
it would be like that is something that happens with kids,
and I think it's worthy of exploring. But yeah, I
don't think she really ever got the chance still like
stand up for herself in a really meaningful way about
Gerry O'Connell. You know what I mean. We had a
discussion similar to this on Book Smart. But what what

(40:13):
I think a movie like Book Smart course corrects is that, like,
we do have a plus sized character in the Beanie
Feldstine character in that movie, and it's never her weight
and size is never called attention to, it's never made
fun of. And I think if this if now and
then we're like remade today, her size would be treated
very differently. But because it came out in the mid nineties,

(40:37):
it's treated the way it is and again I wonder
because it's like I'm rolling King is by all accounts
a pretty forward thinking writer, and the fact that she
wrote in an out character in the nineties, even though
it got you know, taken out, which is very nineties,
you know, I wonder if there was a draft where
that was like dealt with more thoughtfully. And then they're like, no,

(40:58):
body standards are still extremely rigid. I can't do it.
Could be I don't know, but yeah, I just I
don't love the way that the movie frames it in flashback.
I am glad to see her kind of like subtly
dump on her friends in the future because they were
assholds to her. Um, we had to take another quick break,
but then we'll come right back, and we're back just

(41:25):
to continue the conversation about Chrissie a little bit more.
And this is just kind of one of the things
that we see that like differentiates her from her friends
and that we see all these different personality types, is
that Chrissie has some somewhat regressive ideas and she really
subscribes to traditional feminine norms. Um, we're like Robertas splashing

(41:50):
around in some puddles and then like Chrissie says, like ROBERTA,
why can't you just act like a girl. And then
later during the softball fight, which I want to talk
all about, she's like, remember your lady when she's about
to go like punch a dude. Yeah, I mean I
was like I noticed, but it's for me. I'm like, okay,
First of all, it's nineteen seventy. Second of all, there

(42:11):
are enough diversities of opinions on what womanhood is. And
I feel like that's almost like what the whole flashback
is about, is like about each of them defining like
who am I and like what is womanhood to me?
Because they all sort of have like a different and
then at the end they're like, you know, we were
all trying to be the same person, but we're very different.

(42:33):
So I mean, just the fact that you see like
one of the characters like taping down her boobs and
then another one trying to augment them, like really just
telling again of like a very not the same person
these characters, Like really they really go for it there.
She's like brushing her hair, counting how many times, and

(42:55):
like Chris Sie, her mom is so just like put
this thing down and like yeah, Bonny Hunt and when
she says that thing about like, oh, I can't French
kiss the guy because like they want everything, which it's
such a twelve year old thing to say. My mom
told me when I was I think about that age.

(43:15):
She told me and my friend Lindsay that I don't
know why she would lie about this, but it was
I so believed her for so long. She was just
like because I think I read in a magazine about
French kissing and I must have just said it. And
she was like, I've never French kissed anyone before. I
was like what, and she's like, it's gross, there's germs.
Don't do it. I would never like. She was like

(43:38):
it was such a weird lie. But I like until
I was like at French kissing level myself, and I
was like, wait, there's no way she was telling the
truth about never having But what if she was telling
the truth, you know, we're not always never kissed with tongue.
I think she'll probably listen to this. And I never
talked to her about it, but later I just was like, oh,

(43:59):
what a weird lie. Jail tweet at us just the truth?
Truth or day or jail? Do you ever did you.
That would be such a cool fact about how are you?
How are you to children? I've never kissed with tome Um.
That reminds me kind of of one of my favorite

(44:19):
scenes in the movie when they have discovered the Wormer's
skinny dipping, which seeing boys their naked butts, their naked bodies,
minus we don't see their penises, but like, I don't know,
it's weird, it's but they're watching the Warmer's skinny dipping,
which is like a rare example of like a female

(44:41):
gaze moment in a movie. And then Teeny's like, I
saw Scott's penis, and then Roberto and Samantha like they
also sneak a peek, and then Chrissy is like, great,
now I'm the only one who hasn't seen it. It'll
be the topic of conversation and I'll be left out.
So I better see it. But only because you're forcing me,
and I do this out of protests and they're all,
we're not enforcing, and she's like, fine, I'll do it.

(45:03):
You're you're you're forcing my eyes. And then it's like
you just wanted to see a boy's dick and it's
not that big she said yeah. She's like it's not
that big, and then the Sara Birch is like, yeah,
he has to have a heart on and then she
puts her hands out as if like a hard on
is like a foot and a half long. To Suby
Sandwiches love it. It's adorable. I'm like wondering, I'm like,

(45:28):
how much did the I mean, I guess the actors
are like a few, like a year or two older
than their parts. I'm like, how much do they know
that this is a joke? Oh? True, don't because they're
still quite young. They're very young. They're actors brains, that's true.
They've they've lived many lives. They've grown up fast. Um.

(45:50):
I wanted to talk about another thing I really like
about this movie, which is the you see a lot
of moments where boys are underestimating girl. Um. We see
the like jello balloon fight, and then Robert is like
chasing after them and it's like we owe you wormers,
and we always pay our debts. And then Devin saw

(46:12):
his character responds um and he says, yeah, look, we're
really afraid of a bunch of girls. And she's like, yeah,
you should be. And then later they do enact revenge,
which is like sweet revenge by stealing their clothes. Again,
I don't want to see naked boy. Didn't need that shot,
but I like babies. They're a little yeah it's not.

(46:35):
And then the red Rover thing when they the little
boy can't break through their you know, unbreakable friendship and
dare and then the softball game softball game scene. Can
I go beat by beat with what happens here because
I love it so much, Everything except the creepy little

(46:57):
future husband being like any kind She's like, get lost, loser,
and now you're going to be my wife like assistance
and then wear her down. I mean, yes, everything else
is everything else. Here's here's what happens the girls here
about a softball game happening off in the distance, and

(47:20):
Roberta is like, let's go, and it's Roberta's turned to bat.
And then Devin Sawa was like, all right, everybody move
in because they are not anticipating that she will hit
the ball very hard or far. And then feminist icon
little boy who we've never seen before and we will
never see again. I don't think it is weird that
they don't just have one of the warmer brothers say it,

(47:42):
but they just choose it's a random kid, and he says,
it's just a pretty good performance. He's like sitting on
top of a fence with his arms crossed, like, hey, no,
I'm not even talking about you're not even no. Okay,
so true feminist icon. Little boy in the field who says,
come on, Roberta hit it over their heads. And then

(48:04):
another kids like showed up. He's doing the bare minimum.
He's a feminist okay um, and then Roberta she hits
the ball. First one is a foul ball, and then
shitty boy not feminist icon not playing. Yeah, it's not
even playing. He had extreme like resting bully face, like

(48:26):
the kid just looked like a bully and they went
hey and you're like, oh no, He's like, who are
you kidding? Girls can't play softball? And then she says
what did you say? And he says, I said girls
can't play softball, and then she throws down her bat
and storms toward him, and this is when Chrissy's like,
remember you're a lady. And then he's like, why don't

(48:48):
you go home and play with your dolls? And then
Chrissie says, the only doll Roberta has is a g
I Joe and then right, and then Roberta punches him
in the face. He falls down. She starts wailing on him.
It's great. Her friends pull her off of him. He
calls Roberta a crazy bitch. And then Samantha says, how

(49:10):
does it feel to get the crap kicked out of
you but a girl? Which I don't necessarily know how
I feel about that, But he says, too bad, your
mother's did. Somebody needs to teach you how to act
like a girl? Like who is this? How does he
know so much about in the city? Who? He doesn't
even go here exactly? And then Samantha tackles him and

(49:33):
then another fight ensues. It's great, love it and you've
all felt that feeling right. We were like, I'm gonna
fight for my friend, I mean not physically. Every actor
involved in this scene is wonderful. I also want to
shout out whoever edited in the sound effects, because it
makes the fight sound so brutal, like when Christina Riccie
throws the first punch and you hear it connects like

(49:55):
but you're like, oh my god, she like broke his nose,
Like it's so brutal, it's really good. So just to
kind of continue off of that sentiment on another thing
I really like about this movie is that you get
to see girls kind of misbehaving, not being like the
prim and proper societal expectation of what girls are supposed

(50:17):
to be. Because you see them throwing punches. You see
them smoking cigarettes and perhaps that was too influential and
it made people start smoking, but you know, you see
them it's like sneaking out at night being wrong. Yeah,
Like you get to see them make mistakes, and they
all make mistakes in different ways, and then you sort
of get enough background on each character to understand why

(50:40):
they are making these specific mistakes. I mean, I think
Roberta is probably the easiest example to draw from there.
Of um, sometimes you see her act out and it's
confusing to her friends, but it is like rooted in
this trauma she has with what happened with her mother,
And like you just you get to see a wide
range of emotions and reactions and most of them don't

(51:01):
seem like rooted in any stereotype because you just know
the character well enough to understand why they would do it.
Truly that simple. Yeah, It's almost as if when you
try hard at writing a female character, we get a
sense of who they are will come across go fair. Um,

(51:23):
can we talk about Roberta a little bit? So I
really liked that this I think the heaviest thing this
movie really tackles is her grief, right, and I think
they kind of want you to be equally sad about
Gabby Hoffman's parents divorce, even though I'm kind of like whatever,
But although it is like it does seem like it's
the kind of divorce, like a very nine seventy, like

(51:45):
dad leaves for milk and doesn't come back kind of divorce,
which is awful, especially because like divorce wasn't as popular
back then. Because I even say, it's so hot right now, Um,
no other families on the block or like that was
the first family that like divorce kind of thing? Absolutely,
I mean, but but I think in terms of like

(52:07):
lifelong drama, I mean, Roberta takes the case in the
trauma Wars of this movie, she because women being competition,
women be competing with each other over who's the most traumatized.
I liked that this movie and I feel like it
dealt with it pretty responsibly. Um tried to handle a
child grieving. I feel like that's not something you see

(52:28):
a lot really ever in a way that is I mean,
I I kind of I'm curious. I'm like, what kind
of research did I'm Erilyn King do when she was
writing this, because it seemed pretty grounded in, like you know,
she would act out. You would see she was trying to,
like when she would fake her own death. It was
like trying to normalize it for herself, trying to have

(52:48):
a sense of humor about it, and then having like
these really emotional moments. It was just like I thought
it was really like well done, beautiful, and especially because
Roberta's character and and now knowing that Roberta, who grows
up to be Rosie O'donnald was supposed to be kind
of this queer coded character that they later kind of
undo that work and then they're like, Okay, now Devin

(53:10):
saw what is here. There's there's there's a lot going
on with her character. I don't know, like Roberta just
she's such a rich character. And I wish that the
Devin saw what thing was like. I wish you could
just be out but the taping down her breasts thing
when she was younger, I thought was like, I was like, oh,
what is what are they trying to say here? And

(53:30):
I feel like that kind of gets a little bit muddled,
but it was, I mean, it was interesting to see
that period. You don't see that a lot in movies,
especially movies that are like directed at children. I don't know,
I just really like her, But it's just particularly pertaining
to how the movie tackles the idea of grief with
kids and doesn't ever really cut away to an adult

(53:53):
explaining her own grief to her. It's her figuring out
her grief with the kids that she knows, and them
all working it out kind of together as well as
they can. If that was like, it was beautiful. And
I think it's like suggested that no one is helping
her deal with it. She's in a nineteen seventies house
full of boys and dad probably like all emotionally repressed,

(54:15):
like like I don't know what to do. I mean yeah,
And I was like and and and seeing her just
I mean, god, I can't imagine how much that day
the library fucked her up in the years that followed,
because of course her dad wouldn't tell herself, so it's
like that's not a fault of her dad. It just
seems like her dad's got, you know, a lot on
his plate, and she just is like trained to suppress.

(54:39):
It's like sitty to see sad, but it's really nice
to see her get like support from her friends and
kind of that like twelve year old thing of like
they're trying to relate with each other. They're like, I
get it and they don't, but they want to and
that's enough. And kind of the same thing with the
divorce narrative. I guess I have a question about. One
of the things that felt a little weird to me

(55:01):
in this movie was how Samantha's mother was treated. I
didn't really like how they treated Samantha's mother. It's one
of those things I feel like it almost is like
I understand what they were going for, but the movie
seems to decide with the child a little too much,
and kind of the same way where they almost side
with the kids that are making fun of young Chrissie's

(55:22):
body a little too much. Where Samantha is not happy
that her you know, her parents are split up. Obviously,
most kids aren't happy when that happens, especially in nineteen seventy.
But then the way that we see Samantha's mother in
a different scene where it just all felt a little
weird and unrealistic, where the mother is inviting a first

(55:42):
date over to their house dinner or dinner, and then
like it's it's the writing is weird in this scene
because I think we're supposed to like interpret Samantha's mother
is kind of like this irresponsible villain, uh for bringing
home a first date her kids kind of sad, is
like she has good intentions but like doesn't really know

(56:03):
how to execute them adequately or something like that. And
what what adults brings a first date home to meet
their children? You know? Like I mean it was and
I kind of appreciate that this movie doesn't focus on
the parents significantly at all, and it's mostly about the
relationship between the girls, but yeah, I just felt like

(56:25):
it's a very small gripe. But I felt like Samantha's
mom kind of got shaft and and and no no
real opportunity to explain, you know, where she was coming
from or you know. But but also it's like I'm
sure parents weren't talking to their kids about the details
of their divorce as much. In these days. She had
a lot of wigs though, she had and get outfit,

(56:47):
and that poor guy on the first date was really
doing everything he got hankaz Area. Why did Hank gaz
Area accept that invitation? What was n seventy? Like listeners?
If you were a lot I've and like cognizant during
this time? Does this track for you at all? Like
did this happen? I feel like it's not unrealistic. I

(57:08):
don't know, I was not alive, but like, I just
think times were really wacky back they just moved a
little because there I could just come to your house
and wear are your dad's clothes? I mean that whatever?
I think so wild? Um what I do like about
that storyline, it's like the divorced parents and everything. Uh

(57:28):
Clors Leachman shows up at Samantha's house and she's like
banging on the doors and stuff like that, and um,
Samantha's mom is like I could not deal with her
right now. And then Samantha says, like why is she
coming here? Let grandma yell at him, meaning like her dad,
he's the one who left. So she's like she wants

(57:48):
the man to be accountable in this situation because the
grandmother is like mad at her mom for like being
left good to him, and it's like, no, yell the man,
he's the one who abandoned his family. Um. And then
there's a few even though like parents aren't the focus
of that of this movie, and I am again I'm
also fine with that. We get like a few glimpses

(58:11):
or a few like lines of dialogue where the girls
are learning things like and I think this is one
of Brendan Fraser's lines. But the lesson that he teaches
them is that, uh, you know, your parents aren't always right.
I wish someone had taught me that when I was
your age. Um, And there's a bunch of cigarettes. Here's
a bunch of cigarettes. I'm gonna drink all of your
Fanta and kind of flirt with you a little bit,

(58:34):
a little get how much of that is the performance
and how much of that is what's on the page
it was? What is that scene? I don't know, so
it could easily be cut, but listeners who are alive
in nineteen seventy that this happened to you again, I
think it cigarette. I'm glad girls like hitchhiking and like

(58:56):
do a manner of like very dangerous things. This was
like Cray Milk Carton. Yeah. But then there's also that
scene where Teeny and Samantha are talking because like Teeny
has pretty absentee parents, Samantha's parents are getting divorced. Uh,
they're siting like all these like TV families who are
like I love widowers and stuffing that She's just like,

(59:16):
you know, there are no perfect families. It's you know,
it's normal for things to be shitty. I loved that
they use and I was like, oh, that this scene
was written for our podcast because they're trying to normalize
her experience based on things they've seen in media, and
they're not quite able to do it because they can
only name widowers because they couldn't have you couldn't be
divorced on TV at this time. But I thought that

(59:38):
that was I was like, oh, that's like the perfect
Bechdel cast example of like they're trying to be like
it's okay because the Beverly Hillbillies did it, but I
guess they didn't, but they got kind of clothes. Um. Yeah,
that was a great interaction. Can we talk about the
Devin Sawa and Roberta kiss consent. Yes, he asked for

(01:00:03):
consent several times. I mean, first of all, I think
we all agree with Roberta should have just been allowed
to be gay. And well, here's the thing I think, like,
I think Rosie O'Donnell definitely should have been out as
a lesbian or queer woman in the now part of
the now and then storyline. Um. I think I'm like,
what if I was like, that's what the title um?

(01:00:26):
And I would love our queer listeners to weigh in here.
But I think it is perfectly in the in the
realm of possibility, where Roberta, who is twelve and only
just starting to discover her sexuality at all, would because
it's the norm, especially of Vent that she would be like, oh, well,
I'm a girl, so I'm supposed to be attracted to boys,

(01:00:49):
like I should kiss this boy. I get my I
guess my curiosity there because it's like I don't object
to it. I'm just I just would be cool to see, uh,
and it just is not going to happen in but
you know, a young girl recognized her sexuality and discuss
it definitely in any way. But I guess I'm just
curious more from like a production standpoint of like was

(01:01:12):
that added after I'm Rolling's king is told listen, we
are not going to have an out character in this movie,
Like was that my series? Now? And here is why
I want to go another kind of beat by beat
analysis of this scene, um, and my theory comes at
what happens at the end of the scene. So Roberta

(01:01:33):
is shooting hoops. The oldest Warmer boy ak Devin Swa
shows up and she misses a shot. He says, you're
not following through, so he's man explaining to her, and
then she says, who asked you? Like so applause for that,
and then they start playing one on one basketball. She
makes two shots, he makes zero shots, and then he's like, hey,

(01:01:56):
you're pretty good at basketball and not just for a girl,
which is not a compliment, but you don't realize that
when you're twelve years old. And then she just goes like,
thank you, good things. And I feel like if she
was just based on how we've seen her act already,
if she was in a less forgiving mood, she would
have yelled at him. She's just like, I'm not choosing

(01:02:16):
this battle. That was um and then they sit down
together and he's like, I think you're a really nice girl,
and she's like, I thought you always hated me and
he's like, so did I. And then he turns towards
her and says kiss you. And she says, what are
you mumbling? And he says, can I kiss you? So
he's again asking for consent. We do not often see

(01:02:37):
this I think three times total right now, because she says,
I guess and then he zooms towards her, great, are
you ready? And then she's like, oh, you want to
do it now? And he's like sure, I mean if
you want to. She says okay, and then they kiss
and then he pulls away. He's exhilarated. She's like that

(01:02:58):
was great, and she said it was okay. She think
she was written as like a queer young girl who
doesn't totally know her sexuality yet, but again, because of
societal norms, she thinks she's supposed to be kissing boys.
And then she says Scott and he turns towards her
like rapidly, ready for another kiss, and he's like yeah,
and she says, if you mentioned this to anyone, especially

(01:03:20):
your brothers, I will beat the ship out of you. Yes, um,
I hope So, I mean that would be that would
be cool. I liked, I mean I did like that scene.
I do agree with you. That's real and especially inventy like,
they wouldn't portray. I don't think you know a woman
or you know someone that's twelve like I mean, especially
like the small town of Shelby, Indiana in nineteen seventy.

(01:03:44):
I'm I'm guessing again I was not alive, but to
be like an out queer teen or preteen would not
have gone over well for community, I know, But I
just I just think, you know, it's it's it's a movie,
and we could have explored it. I mean, but it
becomes a null choice because they wouldn't allow it to

(01:04:06):
appear in That's what very frustrating to me about this. Yeah,
I mean even wouldn't right. But then again, another thing
that like a movie like Book Smart kind of course
crux is that we do in those characters a little
bit older, but we have and I don't remember the
actor's name, so Caitlin Diaver, Yes, well done, But that

(01:04:29):
was like a big deal, right, like to portray not
a big deal, but it was like refreshing to see
someone in high school being like this is this is
not a big deal. It was extremely normalized. Yes, which
was And that's the difference between you know, twenty nineteen
and exactly Yeah. Something interesting I thought about this movie

(01:04:51):
is if they culled classic now that it was not
received well at all. It was very, very very poorly reviewed.
I mean, we we've got some pull quotes here. I
think the most common criticism, as people are like the
vibe is kind of like all female reboot of stand
by Me, NOI thank you, which and and and this

(01:05:12):
is it's basically all white male reviewers who are basically saying, like, why,
I've already seen this with boys, so I like it better,
and like boyhood and girlhood same deaf to me because
I only care about boys. Uh, your your boy, Roger Ebert,
I think we came on our on the Matreon. I
think we came across the first thing that Roger Ebert

(01:05:34):
said that we've ever liked about ja Jack Frost just
saying how scary the puppet is. But he has to
say on this the adult actresses are completely superfluous to
the movie, which is a fully contrived stand by Me
kind of story, Like he's just dismissive of literally every
part of the movie, and it's just contempt disinterest. Why

(01:05:58):
why is this movie made? Who was it for? Which
is the vibe you get from a lot of this,
you know period of a hundred years that they were
basically only male reviewers of Like you get like who
is this for? When it's very clear that it's for me? Well,
I'm bored media for girls and women. But um, I

(01:06:23):
have an even more frustrating quote from this same review
by Roger Ebert um what distinguished stand by Me was
the psychological stundness of the story. We could believe it
and care about it now and then? Is made of
artificial bits and pieces. The director, Leslie Linka Gladder says
in the press notes that she started crying when she
first read the script quote because it captured that delicate

(01:06:46):
evolution from girlhood to womanhood. And you so rarely find
that end quote. I guess you didn't see Man in
the Moon, which has so much more truth and tenderness
that it exposes now and then for what it is,
a give a key sitcom end quote. Can you imagine
a review aging worse? They're like it's so frustrating because

(01:07:08):
it's so clear, like what he's missing and he is
so blissfully unaware of what can't believe he's coming. That's
a dumb comparison. Yeah, I am not familiar with that movie.
But you know, Roger Ebert again, safety assume everything he
says is basically wrong, terrible take as it pertains to gender.
He we found him to be universally correct about Jack

(01:07:30):
frost Um that all of his takes under like it's
not even that he has takes on gender. He just
is blissfully unaware that movies are made for people other
than him. Um. Anyways, but yeah, this movie was definitely
not um recognized in its time, but it was financially successful,

(01:07:51):
not gigantically financially successful, but it but it did you know,
it turned a profit. I think it, you know, helped
to continue to launch the new generation of young actresses careers.
And I mean girls were starved for media for them
at this time end always and still yeah, just if
you look on Rotten Tomatoes right now, it only has

(01:08:13):
a percent fresh but in audience score, which indicates cult classic.
The reviewers didn't understand it. I just wanted to quickly
shout out, rumor willis adorable as the little sister to Samantha.
Samantha Gabby, I'll get it, you'll get it by the end.

(01:08:35):
Like um, Brendon Fraser isn't credited. We don't know why.
What would be his credit? Creepy hippy like it literally
says on the Wikipedia page Brendan Fraser as Vietnam veteran
parentheses uncredited and you're just like what there? Um. He
informs them that although their parents are adults, they're not

(01:08:57):
always right, and that is his narrative purpose. And we
do not see him in in the shout out to
the actor who played young Chrissie, unfortunately passed away in
two thousand and seven. Um so r I p um
she was. She was so good in this movie. She
was such a good performance. I wish that, I guess

(01:09:18):
I wish that there was a little more of the
older group of women. I guess that I like the
framing device, but as adults, it felt like a few
things kind of fell a little short for me. More
now less than the same amount of that would more now.
I would have watched a little more movie to see
a little more now, Because you're sort of like, given

(01:09:39):
this barrage of information at the end, or in the
case of Roberta and teeny non information. Yeah, I don't know,
pitch okay ready for this? We get and unfortunately they'll
have to be some slight recasting with the actor who
played young Chrissy, but we get Thora Birch, b Hoffman

(01:10:00):
and Christina Ricci to play the adult versions in a
reboot this film, and then we cast a new squad
of young child actors to play the young counterparts of
those characters, and we update the not that there are
a ton but some of the problematic things that are,

(01:10:23):
and we can we can let riverta be out, Yes exactly,
we can have more characters of color, which brings me
to I wanted to read a quote from an essay
by Zoe s Mudzy. I might have very badly butchered
the pronunciation of that, but in a broadly article entitled

(01:10:43):
what white girl Coming of age movies don't do for
a black girl quote, These films about white female adolescents
and teen hood revolve around particular experiences of and meditations
on dissatisfaction and boredom, using nostalgia as their primary pool.
And yet For me, a projections of high school misery
and endless summers only served as a reminder that black

(01:11:04):
girls are never afforded the kind of ordinariness that would
make them relatable to white audiences. Um, which is kind
of the thing with almost every coming of age movie ever. Yeah,
so that is something that I will continue to be
mindful of. Um. And unfortunately, it's like progress is still

(01:11:27):
extremely slow on representing black girlhood at all, which is
still very, very frustrating. I think that there's also something
to be said for class as well, where definitely we're
given a very I mean and it's not it's not
even anything against the movie, it's just what we don't
get in media at all, Like because we're seeing a

(01:11:49):
solidly like middle class, maybe even a little upper middle class,
the scenic Americana La la la. We love it. They
have problems, but it's not the kind of problems poor
kids have, and you don't really see you know, kids
from lower classes ever really represented in movies like this,
which is unfortunate because guess what they are also children?

(01:12:11):
Um there, but yeah, I mean there there should I
hope that we will continue to progress and get to
see more reflections of black girlhood, of of girlhood from
different you know, from all walks of life of none
of like a gender discovery and like exploring your gender
and learning about your gender as your kid. There's there's

(01:12:33):
a lot of work to be done. Definitely. Yeah. Does
anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I thought
it was interesting that and maybe either of you have
experiences where you have a you know, a circle of
friends when you're younger, and then a few stay back.
And that's very I think eccentric situation there where it

(01:12:56):
was like two of them were like we got out
of here, and then the other to her like, we
love it here. Was very funny. I really liked that,
especially because it seems like even though this wasn't quite
their relationship when they were like Roberta and Chrissie become
very codependent as adults like they see, which definitely is
something that happens. I liked how they were written as adults,

(01:13:18):
where like you kind of get the vibe from Samantha like, oh,
it's so weird here, I'm so glad I don't live here,
and then you get the vibe from Chrissie of like
she's so weird like everyone like everyone is like I
am normal, everyone else is a freak, which is how
everyone feels right. And it was nice to see everyone
get their moment in of like when Chrissy is just
like what are you wearing? What are you doing? What

(01:13:39):
is like yeah, yeah, I like it's lovely. I like.
I also liked how just like. A line I liked
was how they described Teeny's parents. They basically are, you know,
explaining what Teeny's deal is. She's hyper feminine, she wants
to be an actor, she wants to be a performer,
and Samantha says this is a typical upbringing for actors
and pathological liars, like oh ship, yeah, Teeny, who, by

(01:14:03):
the way, has a very fluffy white cat, and I
just this to serve as a reminder that cats do
have eight nipples and that's cat facts. With Caitlin Alfred
Bilena could have tell me he should I won't take
this role from Brendan Fraser because he needs it. He
needed he needs it because he always needs it. But like,

(01:14:24):
it's also weirdly a very Brendan Fraser role where you're
just like, yeah, Brendan Fraser could just wander in here,
like that's his vibe. But he could just wander in. Um.
He rolled on set and was ready. I'm like, was
this scripted? Like did he just come on and improvise?
And it's like, don't credit me. I don't want to
be paid for this, like like through the script away,

(01:14:44):
like I don't need it. Love Brendan Fraser. Maybe maybe
Alfred Bilenda could have been Pete. I think he should
have played the He could have played Pete with a
lot more pathos. I think that Alpha Blena would have
really been like if you if you need an actor
who could convince us that Pete didn't kill his family,
you gotta break see. I think from Elina should have

(01:15:05):
played the youngest warmer boy. They does have a forty
year old man in their crew, like like pen fifteen style.
He just plays Devin saw as best friend. I love it.
Girls can't play song fall. You're like, is that Alfred?

(01:15:26):
Oh my head? Okay, Well this movie is this movie
is a treat. It really is, and it and it
for it's doing a whole lot of things right. Indeed,
indeed it is um and as we hinted at before,
it absolutely passes the Bechdel test almost constantly. I don't

(01:15:48):
think you ever see two men or two boys talking
to each other really, or if they do, it's only
for a very small amount of time on screen. But
it is mostly girls and women interacting with each other,
so not something you see very much. But now and
then delivers it was fun. I think. I just like

(01:16:10):
sometimes I'm just like, you know what coming of age,
I did it. I don't need to see it again.
I understand. I'm glad it exists, and I'm especially glad
that it existed, and it's time for for like, just
like girls getting to see themselves on screen in any way,
shape or form is positive. Although it did make Calie
a smoker, but but she looked really cool. I mean

(01:16:32):
it's like she's smoking with the windows up, okay, and
then there's like points to like a map, and there's
a carton of Marlboro's. I'm just like, I know, the
constantly smoking like ashtray has like forty butts, and she's like,
I chose a bad week to stop smoking, and but
she and she is like the cool one of smoking

(01:16:54):
in the backyard with their pregnant friend and just like
and she's baby there. I also just this is like
a very like side thought. But when they were in
the limo driving to also, it's like, could you reunite
these women over a more stereotypical woman thing other than
like she's about to give birth that's true, which was
something that I was like, ding, But this movie does

(01:17:16):
so much right that I gave it a pass. But
when they're in the stolen limo going to somewhere, I'm
not totally sure where they are in that birth. Maybe
it was like a midwifery something like that. There's an
ivy so they're not just like anywhere, and Rosie Donald's
wearing scrubs, so I'm like, but I'm like where, Yeah,

(01:17:37):
maybe it's against a very comfortable hospital. Maybe she owns
the hospital, maybe it's her own hospital. It's a small town.
You never know, but but I liked just that. I
thought the scene of them in the limo is really funny,
where first it seems like a Donald like sort of
improvised part where she's like, hey, look it's your uncle
just kidding. No it's not. I was like, what was that?

(01:17:59):
It was just like really, and Rita Wilson is She's
like great, VCR Look, she's so funn I know. I
was just like, what are they? Are they going to
watch something? And then r in a limo too. I
wouldn't be surprised if Rita Wilson and Ressie Odonnald are
just like friends, because it seems like they were sometimes
talking about stuff that had nothing to do with anything.
She's like, it's a VCR and she's like is there

(01:18:20):
a remote? They're just like, what are you guys talking about?
It was a great passing of the Bechdel test. I
think it was while she's in labor to um giving
birth to a bloody placenta baby and there is like
four people in that delivery room and no husband. Yeah,

(01:18:43):
we don't need it. Well that was maybe that was
my other thing. It was like it didn't look like
a hospital room, and it's very rare that there's just
one person attending a birth. It's usually like two or
three as far as professionals, not just like friends. Piece.
You got this Rosie right like like usually it's you know,

(01:19:03):
like there's a few people. She's just that good. She
doesn't need anybody else. Like maybe there's right out of budget.
At the end, they're like, just reuse the house set.
No one will know we only have one set of scrubs.
Shall we rate the movie on a nipple scale? Sure? Okay,
so zero to five nipples. Based on its representation of women,
I will give this a solid four. Yeah, I have

(01:19:28):
to deduct some nippleage based on the fact that it
makes absolutely no attempt whatsoever to meaningfully include any people
of color. It did make an attempt to meaningfully include queerness,
but because of homophobia in the nineties, audiences are like boo,
so that had to be removed from the story and

(01:19:51):
the narrative. Making the choice to characterize Christie in such
a way that it is often fat shaming her um
is not thing we like to see. But overall, I
think it does a pretty spectacular job, especially for in
showing a coming of age story of tween girls and

(01:20:13):
their lives and the issues that they would face. It's
so relatable, so much realism in the way they're characterized
and uh their friendships. I love that you never see
like they have conflict within their groups sometimes but it's
never about anything like petty or anything like that. The

(01:20:34):
way that we see like girls hating each other for
no reason, and it feels realistic for the age to
the reasons they have problems with each other seeing both
realistic and age appropriate exactly. Yes, that's what I'm trying
to say. Yeah, it's just a really wonderful female driven
story that you know, has some issues that have been
kind of I think course corrected in comparable coming of

(01:20:57):
age stories since I came out even and sister to
the Traveling Pants. I feel like, of course corrects a
few things that happen here that don't happen in there.
And that's like ten years later, right, so incremental progress exactly. Um,
but yeah, four nipples and I'll just make it easy,
give one to each of the four characters. I'm gonna
go four nipples to Um. Yeah. I think that it's

(01:21:18):
just for all the reasons you just described, and think
it's like a really not just like a movie that
made progress, but move a movie you can trace being
used as a template in future movies and being updated
for times as things become less societally taboo. I appreciate
that I'm Marly and King wanted to include a queer
storyline here. She does that, and Pretty Little Liars because

(01:21:42):
every relationship of regardless of gender, and Pretty Little Liars
deeply toxic. Yes, but there a all there's all sort
of every kind of toxic relationships explored on that show. Um. Yeah,
I think that it's like a huge step. I'm glad
that it's sort of stood the test of time. And uh,
you know, man, male critics very often don't get it. Um,

(01:22:03):
it's really nice seeing I mean it's it's a very
like solid middle class white girlhood that's reflected. Um. But
unfortunately that tends to be where, um, at least right now,
where people start with, like it always the first thing
that they're comfortable even seeing reflected. So it's you know,
progress need will continue to be built upon the work

(01:22:25):
that this movie did and so and it's just it's
it's I really I really liked it. I like that
scene in the limo a lot. Uh. Four nippies, um,
and I'm gonna give one to each two now they
both got a full set, all four of them. Kelly,
I agree, four nipples for all the reasons that you
guys listed. I really hate that there's no people of
color basically except for them stealing that gentleman's car. Why

(01:22:50):
couldn't he they have just let him drive his own limo?
Did he offer he's there, it's his car, he knows
the ins and yeah, that was very frustrating. But I
want to give a nipple to Johnny's mom because like,
where the fund is she Johnny? What don't they care

(01:23:12):
about her murder? Nobody cares about her, but Honorable mentioned
nipple to her. But for for all the ladies, each one, Yes,
she deserves. She deserves nipples at very least after her
husband killed her like that, Yeah, and then went out
drinking all night with a dick. The reboot also has
to address like what actually happens goes to real and

(01:23:33):
the reboot to no, no tractor, no, none of that
big That's another thing I'm really in king of course,
correct Son. She's like, you know what, I was hesitant
on the Supernatural and now and then I've really got
to let it loose. Spirits are I guess I got
to watch Pretty Little Liars. I would be fascinated to

(01:23:55):
you you will hate it, but I would be fascinated
to live tweet. I'll watched the pilot Liveshoot the Teacher.
It's illegal and it is the first episode. I always
confuse that show and Big Little Lies. So no, Pretty
Little Liars is like a CW style. It was ABC

(01:24:17):
Family I think technically or free form whatever they're calling
it's it's like it's it's a teen teen like it's
like toxic teenage content. The channel. I love it, the channel.
The Channel. Yeah, I'm incredible. Well, Callie, thank you so
much for being here. You're ruining us. Where can people
follow your work? Follow you online? I have my photography Instagram,

(01:24:40):
which is at Callie b Photo, and I have a
circus archive Instagram that's just a collection of my grandpa's
photos and my mom's photos and my own photos, and
you could read more about it on there, but it's
at Circus dot stories when it's really cool. Yeah, it's

(01:25:02):
just a bunch of old film circus photos and then
they get newer as we age, me and then my mom.
Now it's like it is like now and then time.
It's a circus, the circus of life. Okay, thank you

(01:25:26):
again so much for joining us. You can follow us
at bectel cast. On the social media places. You can
subscribe to our patreon a k R Matreon. It's five
dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes
every month, plus our entire backlog of bonus episodes. So
now it's the best time to check out our Patreon.

(01:25:49):
I love you guys now and when this is then
to my five years from now, we come back getting
the limel. No one has to give birth, but one
of us does have to pretend. Okay, that's the Volunteers
Tribute treehouse. Yes, oh yes, we all have to get
a treehouse. That treehouse was gigantic. Yeah, well time shirt

(01:26:13):
okay perfect. We love you gues By

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

The Bechdel Cast News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

United States of Kennedy

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Now and Then with Callie Biggerstaff