Now You See Me with Kayla Drescher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they happen individualism, the patriarchy? Zef In
best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie,
Hey Caitlin, pick a card, any card, and look closely

(00:21):
at it. No, wait, you're looking too closely because you
thought the magic was happening right here, but it's actually
happening over there. I was mis directing you. Oh my god,
should we kiss? Yeah? You're so horny right now for me?
Oh my god, I know for some reason, I am Okay,
quick anecdote at the very top of the episode, This

(00:41):
happened to me in college where I was at a bar.
There's a magician doing like close up card tricks, and
there was a mentalist and they were there together doing illusions.
I love this story. I haven't heard this one in
a while. Oh I've told it to you. Okay, Well,
I don't know if i've ever have. I said it
on the podcast, so I don't think. So here's a

(01:02):
please make a cannon. Okay. So they're like doing tricks.
I go over to them and I'm like, wow, this
is cool. I love magic, and they're like, wow, a
woman is talking to us. So they did a bunch
of tricks and I was awestruck. And then I said,

(01:23):
to neither of them in particular, but also kind of
both of them, do you want to go on a
date with me sometime? And they were like, uh huh.
So we arranged a date. Although I was mostly talking
to the magician over the mentalist guy. So I was
talking to the magician. We're corresponding, texting setting up the date.
I show up to the date they are both there,

(01:45):
because again I did not ask. I directed my question
into the ether, not at a specific person. I think
you're being too hard on yourself in this situation. Well,
I should not both show up, but I also I'm
fine that they both did. And actually, in an ideal world,
I would have just a harem of multiple partners following

(02:09):
me around. Sure, I'm not saying that it's a bad
thing to happen, but it is something that you would
want to check in advance before. Yes, but I don't
I don't fault myself nor the other people involved that
they both showed up and it was actually awesome and fine.
And then the whole date. They just did more tricks,
which again was fine. That's kind of why I wanted

(02:31):
to hang out with them more. And then the Magician
was like, Hey, we should hang out again some time,
and then I kind of bailed and then we remained
like friendly. And I think he lives in l A now.
But if today he was like, hey, do you want
to catch up sometime, I'd be like sure. So that's

(02:53):
my awesome story. And today's movie is about now you
see me. What if you're like, in today we're doing
The god Father and it had nothing to do with anything.
You're like, I just have been wanting to get this
off my chest for five years. That's and that's what
you call it, Mr Dirict, and that's a Mr Direct.
Jesse Eisenberg geez, oh my god. The star of this

(03:15):
movie is Jesse Eisenberg's haircut. Like the most thing I've
ever seen in my life where I felt it in
my entire body when they revealed the haircut, where we're like, wow,
that's a haircut that didn't exist out of outside of
that year, and people didn't even like it when it
was there. It wasn't good at the time. Okay, So yes,

(03:38):
that's all the context you need to know going into
this episode. I think that was a perfect introduction. Welcome
to the Bechtel Cast. I was gonna say, poof so wow.
I was gonna mine was gonna be much quicker, But
I don't think as rich of a text. I mean Africa,
Debra letter Rip exactly quote that song from Aladdin. I

(04:00):
was WoT to say that. They didn't say that. Jesse
Eisenberg didn't say that. No, no, that's not magician Cannon
because Jessie Asberg didn't say it in this movie. Okay,
it's the now you See Me episode of the Vitel Cast.
This is our show where we take a look at
your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. My name's

(04:21):
Jamie Lofton. I feel bad because we have like a
legitimately extremely talented magician as our guest today and we
visibly know nothing. We don't know what we're talking about.
We're absolutely blowing it, and so we've brought in an
expert who we've seen performed before. She's fucking amazing, and

(04:42):
please tearris to shreds at any time. We welcome it. Psychologically,
it doesn't need to be via magic just psychologically destroy us.
It's not hard. Um, so this is the Vectel cast. Uh, Kaitlin,
what is the Vectel test? Though I'd don't remember, well,
let me jog your memory. I did hypnotize you and

(05:04):
made you forget what the Bechtel test was. So my bad.
I know, I think I'm playing Beethoven. I'm like, I'm
like Common, who's in this movie for like two minutes,
and then he keeps disip bearing for an hour and
then he comes back and you're like, office are Common?
Poor Common? He is too good for this. I mean, yeah,
with I mean, you know, okay. The Bechtel test is

(05:26):
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes
known as the Bechtel Wallace test. There are many versions
of the test. The one that we use requires that
two people of a marginalized gender have names, they talk
to each other about something other than a man for
two lines of dialogue, and ideally it's a narratively meaningful conversation.

(05:50):
There's a lot. I mean, look, we'll get into it. Uh. Tricky, tricky, tricky. Um,
so yeah, we were covering you see me. We have
a wonderful guest with us. I'm so excited to have her.
So let's let's get her on so she can destroy
us like we deserve. She's a magician host of She's
Am podcast. It's Kala Dresser. Hey everyone, Uh, I will

(06:14):
not destroy you because all of my energy will go
into destroying this movie. So just know you're safe for today.
But I also really appreciate that you hit every magician
trope in the first thirty seconds of this episode, so
I applaud you. Honestly, it was like a feat. I
really impressed. We are problematic when it comes to the

(06:35):
representation of magicians in media. That's fine, honestly. So what's
the movie? Uh, you're fine. I'm so excited to talk
about it. I oh my gosh, there are so many
I will say. When the twist of the movie was
revealed at the very end, the twist that makes no
sense and only introduces more questions, I gasped. I didn't

(06:56):
see it coming. I was shocked, bowled over. Well, you
don't see it coming because it doesn't make least logical
thing to happen in the movie. It's first shadowed by nothing,
and it's first shadowed by a bunch of shots that
are like Mark Ruffalo posing like he's Mr Robot, He's
like Rammy Malick and Mr Robot in all of the

(07:18):
foreshadowing shots where it's just like lone guy in a hoodie.
I was like, that's sir, that role is taken. I
love that. You were like, that's the least logical thing
in the entire movie. When literally someone floated above an
audience in a bubble like that says a lot. It

(07:40):
does call into question like is there actual like wizard
style supernatural magic happening sometimes or is it are they
just using illusion? It's there's a lot of questions I have.
There has the right. So there's it's a really interesting
conversation because a lot of magicians also and to also

(08:00):
be in the skepticism world. And so you have people
like Amazing Randy, who spent a large portion of his
career trying to take down Uri Geller, who's a magician
who claims he has actual superpowers and because he has
actual superpowers, he can bend spoons, and so, uh, he
would that that's his entire life. Is he's just claiming

(08:21):
he has some sort of unnatural power being thing and
a lot of magicians, there's a really fine line, especially
when you get into the mentalism realm and kind of
the like influencing and all of that. It starts to
get into a little bit of a fine line of
that you have to be careful of to make sure
the audience knows that you're not a psychic. And there

(08:43):
are many mentalists that after shows get approached and get
asked like, hey, can you contact my dead sister? Like
you know. So it does tell a really really careful,
very thin line between doing magic for entertainment and being
what I would consider more of a swindler, because a
lot of those people will use this what what I know, Like,

(09:08):
I know how it's being done. If I go see
a psychic, I know how it's being done. Am I
going to say that that doesn't exist in the world.
I'm not going to discount it. I don't think it's
unrealistic possibility, but I know a lot of how that
is done. And because of that, there's that line where
you can really easy step over it when you start
taking people's money because you're going to do something that
they're hoping for. And so it is really really it's

(09:32):
a really big topic of conversation and magic on a
regular basis. Kayla, I need to interview you for the
other podcast I'm working on. It's all about spiritualism. Okay,
oh cool, Oh that's so cool. Wow. Let's we'll put
a pin in that on Mike. But I have so
many questions for you. Okay, okay, great? Um? So, Kayla,

(09:53):
what is your history your relationship with the movie or
maybe the franchise, even because there's a stew Well and
then there's I think a third movie in development or
in production. They're going to do another one, I believe.
So wow, I saw it on IMDb. Now you see three? What? Okay,
so we're focusing on the first now you see me?

(10:15):
What is your relationship to that film? So obviously, as
you mentioned, I'm a magician. That's my career, and so
whatever movie gets made about your career, you want to
know how your career is being portrayed in a movie
that's going to be seen by a lot of people, right,
And so it's really interesting this movie is from and

(10:38):
I'm still today getting asked about that movie. And even
just like two weeks ago someone mentioned like, oh have
you seen that movie? Like what do you think of
it because I thought it was really cool. And when
the movie came out, and this was not due to
the movie, but it just is like how people think.
Before the movie came out, I got a call once

(10:58):
they wanted me to in a show play the piano
and then float the piano while I was playing it,
and I was like, cool, So that's gonna like we're
talking a starting price here of twenty grand because not
only is it my fee, but you're going to have
to have that built by an illusion designer from scratch
because that does not yet as of today exist And

(11:19):
they were like, we were hoping you could do it
for two hundred dollars and it was like, you're cute.
I'm not, that's not possible. Do you think I'm a
cartoon character? Like but her Her actual reaction to that
was I thought you could just do magic. It's like, oh, okay.
So there's always this line that that when people call

(11:39):
it you asking to hire you for something, there's a
concern that there's actual superpower things going on here. And
then after the movie came out, I can't tell you
how many calls I got asking if I could float
into bubble what For like a year, really yeah, just constantly.
It was Yeah, you were wondering, like we're not a

(12:00):
big budget but wondering if you could do that thing
in the movie. And it's like, so, I would like
to now explain to you what c G I is
and not particularly good c G I either. That's very accurate.
There was a tour called then now you see Me
tour that a friend of mine did work on, and
they did I believe a floating bubble allusion, but you

(12:22):
better believe that took a long long time and lots
of money to put together. So that stuff's not like
if you're doing it in front of an audience. Even
like Copperfield's flying illusion from the nineties, like that that
was amazing, but if you saw it live, there were
things that you're like, oh, that's maybe a bit wonky,
Like I wasn't I was. I was expecting that to

(12:44):
look like he was flying. And so there are people
really think like with magic, it's really easy, and it's
not at all, And when a movie like this comes out,
it just sort of pushes the narrative that magic super easy,
you could just do it, and it's like, no, I've
practiced my whole life to be able to do this
one card trick. Come on. So that is it's still

(13:06):
something that all these years later, nearly ten years later,
is something that magicians will still be having to answer
that question of can we do the stuff in the movie.
Caitlin and I can relate with that because people ask
us about the movie Joker all the time. They're like,
is Joker reflective of the stand up comedians experience? And
the answer is yes. Our life is a billion dollar

(13:28):
movie and where the scariest people to ever live. Um.
I also I'm very curious um for listeners and just
for us to know a little bit more about how
you built a career in magic as well. Yeah, that's
a good question. I don't really know, to be completely honest,
to start to happen. Uh So I started doing magic

(13:48):
when I was seven years old, and magic is a
really cool way of satisfying a lot of my brain.
Half of my brain really like science and math and
logic and dogs. I also really love dogs, and you're
fine minds literally next to me, So the more dogs,
the better. I But it also I really love making
people laugh and entertaining people, and magic was it was

(14:11):
my ability to be able to do both of those things,
and so I did it for my whole life. I
went off to college, had no intention of doing magic
as a career, graduated college, got a job, hated it,
dove into magic, and I started out as a bar magician,
which I would bartend and then when everybody had a drink,
I would then do like a ten minute show. Right,
It's a really good way to get a thick skin

(14:32):
because everyone is drinking and they're loud, and they're blunts
and you have to deal with that, usually without a microphone,
and so you're just like, okay, this is this is
a good way to work out being a better performer.
And then I moved I'm from Connecticut and I was
living in Boston when I went full time, and then
moved out to Vegas and then eventually Los Angeles. And

(14:56):
magic and is that there's two parts to magic. One
is that you have to run a bit business, and
the other is that you have to be the product.
And so you have you are the product. You're selling
yourself and your show, which means you have to also
be constantly working on bettering the product, but then also
figure out how to get work and run a business.
So it's a there's a lot of trial and error.

(15:17):
Magic is very much a mentorship community, so a lot
of people have been in this for a while will
help you out, uh, and you can ask questions. People
write books and do lectures. So it's cool because magicians
often help other magicians, which is really nice. And I
definitely would have no idea what I was doing if
other people didn't help me many steps along the way.

(15:39):
Even now with me, like I'll call my friend and
be like I don't I don't know how to fix this,
and we'll talk about it for a while and then
it'll be fixed. That's a really nice part of it.
And living in Los Angeles, the magic community is really
big and strong, so it's really cool to be able
to like absorb into that and learn from other magicians.
That's also cool. And we were we were lucky enough

(16:00):
to see you perform at the Magic Castle a couple
of years ago. Yeah that was fun, that was a blast,
And yeah, we highly recommend your podcast because I mean,
I truly everything I know about magic I know from
your show and from like watching you perform. So thank
you for being here, thank you for sharing that. I'm
so excited and thanks for coming to that. That was

(16:21):
really it was really cool that we got to connect
because obviously I listened to your podcast all the time,
so I was like, Oh, this is so cool, let's
have dinner. And so it was really fun and I'm
so glad it was. We still talk about it truly
all the time. It was very good. That's awesome. This
is a special night, U Caitlyn. What's your history with
this movie? I saw this movie not in theaters, but

(16:45):
I saw it probably a year or two after it
came out. I also, I am pretty sure I saw
the sequel, but I have absolutely no memory of it,
and I don't know what happens in it, So maybe
I didn't see it. I don't know, but I definitely
I saw the first one, and I remember there being
a big twist ending, but I didn't remember what it was.
So when I was because it doesn't make sense, I

(17:06):
was like, oh, why is that the twist? But um
it was. It was just such a joy. I definitely
haven't seen the second movie, but I do remember there
being like a not insignificant conversation because it did reach
me someone who didn't see any of the movies. But
there was not an insignificant conversation about why they named

(17:29):
the second movie, Now You See Me Too. I think
there was a lot of upset that of why it
wasn't called now You Don't, which is the intuitive name
for the second movie, but they instead they didn't even
call it now to See Me. They called it now
you See Me Too, or and extremely and now you
See Me movie. This is this, I mean, I would
say even more so than the original. Now You See

(17:51):
Me one is an extremely goofy movie. It is I
never know what's happening. I don't like will just keep
stating each other's feelings about each other, but you never
actually see the fact that it's true. It's officer common.
You're like, what is going on here? And then it

(18:13):
is very I'm so excited to hear your insight, Kleb,
because for me, for a movie that like really harps
on like explaining how the illusion is accomplished, every explanation
left me more confused than when I just watched it. Um,
they're like, oh no, there's a I still don't understand

(18:33):
how their air duct works. Anyways, I'd never seen this
movie before, and I was waiting to watch this movie
because I knew this is this episode has been a
long time coming, and so I've been waiting to watch it,
and it didn't disappoint in terms of I heard it
was really confusing and that the haircuts were very weird,

(18:54):
and in that way, I felt like I fully got
what I showed up for because the haircut were just
next level and the logic, the internal logic of the movie,
the emotional logic of the movie, the characters. I had
no idea what was going on for ninety percent of
the time, but I was I was invested. I was
shocked that the Dave Franco magic battle. I was like,

(19:18):
what is this? This is wild? Um, So I'm very
excited to talk about out attend no notes that that scene.
I did not see that scene coming. And then that
was the point where I was like, is this is that?
How do you do that? But that's why I mean,
but I can't tell, Like, I'm very excited to hear
professional magicians insight because of like, is any of this possible?

(19:41):
I don't know. I have some insight on that fight
scene oddly enough, and I just in general in the
entire movie. But this is also very important for anyone
who this might appeal to. But I cannot stress enough
that if you're going to have some sort of skill
in a movie that you're making, you need to pay

(20:02):
for a consultant or like I would say, cast people
who can do magic and acting. I've been able. I've
been very lucky enough to consult on a couple of
different projects, and one of which was a movie that
started Riha Pearlman, and so I got to work with
Ria for for like two months teaching her magic. And

(20:26):
I mean, first of all, she's a gem, but also
her dedication to making sure she could do magic enough,
like when you see her do magic in the movie,
she's doing it. There's only like one time that there's
a little bit of a edit, but it's barely she's
actually doing the magic. And that's because she was dedicated
as an actor to being able to do it. Now,

(20:48):
James James Frinko, he does do the backbond, the card manipulation,
and he I believe he does actually produce those card fans,
which was like, oh, that actually takes a lot of practice.
That's a few months of practice. Oddly enough, just that
one producing two card fans in each hand. Maybe it
was edited. I don't know, but he did the move
exactly like how he held his hands up and I

(21:10):
went your back coming cards and boom he had cards.
I was like, yeah, okay, I believe, I believe you
had cards and that's awesome. And so I appreciate that
that was probably the reality. But the amount of times
people don't hire a magic consultant. When you watch it
it ends up like this, You're like, there's so much
more you could have known about if you just asked
the right person. Were there particular things I mean, and

(21:36):
we'll get into the recap in a second, but were
there particular things that really stood out to you? Because
I know that, like there are certain things that happened
in this movie where you're like, well that just you
can't just be in a bubble Illa Fisher. But were
there certain things that really stuck out to you of like, oh,
that was a severe like the actor clearly didn't know

(21:56):
how that is supposed to look or be executed. Pretty
much anything. Jesse Eisenberg touches fire. I'm not afraid to
say it. Well, so I saw him before the movie
came out. He was on Letterman and he did it's
a move that's called the snap Change. It's a really
popular social media video for magicians to make. It's basically

(22:17):
holding a card up and then you in a sense,
snapped the card and the card changes. But because he's
not a magician, he didn't know how to talk to
the camera people, and they filmed it from the back,
and so only Letterman saw magic. No one else saw magic.
Everyone else saw how it was done, and he does it,

(22:40):
and he does it in the trailer, and it's also
something that takes practice. But if you actually watch closely,
you can see how it's done, and it's it's things
like that that's like, oh man, I just wish which
was a little bit more attention to detail. Obviously there's
lots of c G I and all of that, but
I think it's the close up magic. For me, that

(23:02):
is what could have been because all the mentalism is
fairly doable. All the pickpocketing is very doable. The escape
that Island Fisher does in the very beginning has been done.
I mean, no piranhas, but like that idea of going
in a water tank and then showing up in the
back of the audience, that's done all the time. It's
the close up magic to me that was like, oh man,

(23:23):
you had to work hard and post to make that
look good. By the way, almost direly drowned doing that. Yeah,
her chain got stuck when they were filming. So again
it's like, I'm sure if they had a proper consultant,
that probably would not have happened. Were there Do we
know if there were magic consultants on this movie? There was.

(23:44):
Blake Voy was the magic consultant on the movie. I
don't know his extended involvement. I know that he taught
a lot of the back palming or the card the
card moves to the magicians. He's also the magician who
taught um oh names aunt man how to backpalm the
card thank you. He taught Paul Rudd how to backpalm

(24:06):
the business card that shows up in Marvel movies. So
Blake voit was the magic consultant. But I don't believe
like you need a magic consultant on the script. Also,
like a consultant should be going through the script, combing
through and going this is a bad idea. Let me
give you eighteen other ideas you can pull from, and
then going from there. My guests would be that person

(24:30):
did not exist. I know Copperfield had a big hand
in it, but I think only in certain elements. So
I don't believe there was a good enough involvement from
any consultant. You can kind of just tell got it. Okay,
that's good to know. I mean with certain things. I
worked as a comedy consultant before, and sometimes it's just
like if you're not there all the time, then it's

(24:51):
like certain things can just slip through. And then because
of how production works, you're like, oh, I guess that
that's just there. Now, Okay, we'll see what happens all
the time. It happens all the time, brutal. Let's take
a quick break and then we will come back for
the recap, and we're back. We're back today, shall we

(25:19):
shall we get into the meet and potatoes of the wait.
I should have said, right when you said we're back,
you're really digging a hole. I couldn't. I should have said,
and now you see me again? Where can this is
a podcast? No one ever sees us. And that's in
a way the illusion. And now you hear me, Now
you hear me. Now you don't because you turned out

(25:41):
the podcast. Okay, I'm in a weird mood. Okay, this
is great. Okay, so what happened? Good luck? This. I
do not envy you having to recap this. This is
I did my best. I trust you. So we meet
several people at the very beginning, one by one. First

(26:02):
is Daniel that's Jesse Eisenberg. He's doing a card trick
for a big group of people. It's a big spectacle.
We meet Merritt Woody Harrelston's character. He's doing hypnosis and
mentalism for this couple who's on vacation or something. We

(26:22):
meet Jack that's Dave Franco. He does a neo from
the matrix, bending a spoon with his mind trick, which
no one calls attention to. Then pickpockets a guy with
his sleight of hand skills. We finally meet Henley that's
Isla Fisher's character. She does a get out of handcuffs

(26:47):
while in a tank of water trick. It seems to
go horribly wrong with flesh eating piranhas, but it turns
out it was all part of the illusion and she's
actually fine. In all of these scenes, there is some
mysterious hooded figure lurking around, who presumably leaves behind an

(27:08):
invitation for these four people, Daniel, Merritt, Henley, and Jack
all show up to the address on the invitation. They
go into the apartment where there are some tricks and puzzles,
and then they uncover these digital blueprints for what turns

(27:29):
out to be an elaborate magic show. It's funny because
you can tell it is. It is like fully CG
and so it's just like Jesse Eisenberg and Woody Harrelson
looking at nothing and being like, well, this trick is
gonna be wid and like it's like hackers style shot. Also,

(27:50):
there's one shot in this movie where you're like, wait,
Isola Fishers a hacker? And then it never comes back.
She's in front of like forty computers and she's like
I don't know, and I was like you can do that,
Like there didn't realize, but don't worry, Like anything's in
this movie. It's not really relevant and it won't come back, right.
So then we cut to one year later, these four

(28:11):
people have a show together in Vegas called The Four Horsemen.
In the audience of this show is Morgan Freeman, who
is trying to film the show. Also, Morgan Freeman almost
in every scene of this movie is like with some woman,

(28:31):
we never learn who she is. I think she does
have a name at one point, but I didn't feel
like to find out. Yeah, it's he says something like
thank you and says her name, but she never speaks
correct the whole movie. I felt bad. I was like, stop,
I mean, I hope that you know she was like
paid well, but I was like, you're wasting this woman's

(28:55):
time if you give her a line or don't. My god, anyway,
we're also about to meet Michael Caine's character. He also
has a young woman as his assistant question Mark. Her
name is Jasmine. I think what you learn in exactly
one scene. She similarly has no narrative significance, no lines

(29:15):
of dialogue, oh nothing. Incredibly bizarre, to the point where
I'm like, we're large chunks of this movie cut because
I genuinely don't understand why those characters are there if
you're going to give them nothing to do right real fast.
I want to just mention one scene and how accurate
it is, because in in the scene where Jesse Eisenberg

(29:36):
is going to hook up with the fan girl and
he then sees a card and it's like, I am
now more interested in this magic thing. I cannot tell
you the accuracy. No, there is a picture. I'll have
to find it for you and send it to you
so you can see it. It's a picture of four
magicians sitting around a table we call jamming, so working out,

(30:01):
like playing with magic and showing each other moves and
stuff at a strip club. And it's there is a
naked woman and they are back to her playing with
a deck of cards. It is so you, I had
to say in that moment, I went, Okay, whoever, someone
someone nailed that. That was like probably the most accurate

(30:23):
thing of the entire movie about magic is it's like, yeah,
magicians are way more into props and magic things than
they are, but this like sexual Yeah, yeah it was.
It was brilliant. Loved it the way Jesse Eisenberg treats
that poor woman made my nose bleed. I was my god. Yeah. Yeah,

(30:47):
So at least there's some accuracy in this movie. That's nice. Yeah, Okay,
So they have the show together in Vegas. We meet
Morgan Freeman briefly. We also meet they call him like
their benefactor. I think it's like the show's financier Arthur
Tressler played by Michael Caine, who's like an insurance executive

(31:07):
the Jillionaire, Like, okay, is it explained? Did I miss something?
Why is he interested in magic? And how did he he?
I feel like it's revealed very very late that he
is like a nine figure insurance scammer scion. I just

(31:28):
assumed he was like a generic rich guy, which Michael
Caine plays all the time very well in spite of
his horrific politics, but like it's something that he does
pretty often. But when they made it really specific very
late in the game, like wait, how did this insurance
guy get interested? Like how did he get connected to
these magicians? And they don't really tell you anyways, I

(31:51):
have no idea. Okay, well, as long as as long
as I didn't miss anything. There's so many things where
I'm like, did I lose a scene? Like did they
drop a scene on the floor? Or because I don't
know what's happening, I feel like I've thought about it,
like oh yeah, logically, you know Vegas show to rent
a theater like that, it's probably like six eight grand
to night because you have to rent it, like you

(32:13):
what we call four walling, right, So You've have a
four wall of space in Vegas. But in order to
do that, you have to have money, so you might
have a benefactor. Obviously they hooked up with this benefactor
because the blueprints told them too. And I've put way
more thought into the script than what they did than
the person who wrote it did. That's helpful to hear that,
because I was just like, how is any of this

(32:35):
very expensive stuff happening and how is it worth it
for anyone involved? And I just never really figured it out. Yeah,
Mark Ruffalo, spoiler alert something something, Mark Ruffalo. Yes, Okay.
So for the final trick of the show, they announced
that they're going to rob a bank. They pick someone

(32:56):
seemingly at random from the audience. It's a Frenchman named Etienne.
They seemingly teleport him into the vault of his bank
in Paris, France ever heard of it via this teleportation
machine slash helmet, and then they teleport the stacks of

(33:16):
cash in Paris back to Vegas and all of the
cash comes raining down onto the audience. So it seems
that they have successfully robbed this Parisian bank. The next day,
Daniel Merritt, Jack and Henley are arrested and agent Dylan
Rhodes Mark Ruffalo. Oh my god, I couldn't have told

(33:38):
you that character's name. With a gun to my head.
I was like, Mark Ruffalo, that's all I had. Like there,
I did, not Dylan Rhodes. Why bother. So Dylan Rhodes
from the FBI is on the case, assigned to him
by his like superior played by Common who well, as

(34:00):
you mentioned, Jamie is in three scenes coming and going.
So Dylan Rhodes is on the case to figure out
how they stole the money from the bank. Also assigned
to the case is someone an agent sent from Interpool
from France named Alma played by Melanie laurent Is. I'm

(34:23):
guessing how maybe you say your name? It was pretty
It was really pretty good who. Rhodes is reluctant to
work with. The two of them interrogate Daniel and Merritt,
who don't give up any information, and Daniel is all like,
we're going to be so many steps ahead of you
and you're not even gonna know it, and then he

(34:44):
throws his handcuffs onto Rhodes and we're like woo. And
then Rhodes has to let them go because there's no
real evidence against the magicians, but he's like, they're going
to do this again, and it seems like this was
the first of three big shows that the Four Horsemen
will perform. It is it's so funny, Like it's so

(35:07):
they're so rude in the interrogation and this is like,
obviously this is an anti podcast, but I'm just like,
what do they think is going to happen to them?
They're so confident that they're not gonna get arrested. And
also it's so like early on you're like, oh, this
movie only cares about Woody Harrelson and Jesse Eisenberg. Correct

(35:28):
the two actors who are I mean, I love Woody Harrelson.
I don't love this character at all. This character fucking sucks,
especially because he leads by saying extremely transphobic, fucked up stuff,
and basically his first scene, well, no, it's the misogynist scene,
and then the transphobic scene, and then he sexually harasses
Isisla Fisher for the rest of the movie. And then

(35:49):
you don't get any scene of isle of Fisher's police interrogation,
but you do get five hundred scenes of her getting
harassed sexually harassed by Woody Harrelson. That's spil hated it anyways. Okay,
so then we meet Thaddius Bradley. That's Morgan Freeman's character's name,
good Lord. He is a former magician who now debunks

(36:14):
magicians and exposes how their tricks are done. Rhodes meets
with him. Thaddius explains misdirection. He explains how they didn't
actually rob the bank, at least not the way it
seems they did it. During the show, Rhodes learns that
the teleportation machine just drops you into a room below

(36:35):
the stage that looks like a bank vault, and Thaddius
explains how the Four Horsemen specifically targeted this French guy
at the enne, how they mind tricked him into going
to their show, and how the way they mind tried
him into going to their show is so expensive. I
know that this is like it's a movie. I get it,

(36:56):
but there had to have been a smarter screenwriting way
to explain how they got him there, other than they
all went to Paris and we're like jogging around being
like snap, crackle pop, and now he's in Vegas and
you're just like, as someone who knows basically nothing, about magic.
Never in a million years when I believe that, unless

(37:18):
you're telling me they're fucking wizards, which I don't think
we're supposed to think they are. There is an element
of magic that is all about influencing your audience, and
so their elements were like in theory, I could get
you with some practice. I'm not that good at it,
but I could get you to choose something very specifically
that I wanted you to choose like that, that's an
element of it. However, would that then last months later

(37:44):
to the show and vacation you planned? No? Right now,
we're getting him too, like weird hypnosis mind control territory,
which is not a thing magicians have the ability to do.
And so it's a very strange, like I get them

(38:05):
when Woody Harrison like kind of palms his chest and
that hypnotizes him. That's and I don't know much about hypnosis,
but from what I know, that's an element of kind
of using that. But that means that, like how long
were they Woody Harrison would have had to like sit
down with this guy and do what he did to
the people that the couple on vacation at the beginning.

(38:26):
This is not a realistic. And I also they don't
explain misdirection correctly, which was just a massive pet peef
of mine. Misdirection is not covering up. So that allusion
where the guy gets smushed and in theory he's in
Paris is actually a playoff of a real illusion. It's

(38:46):
Michael Carbonaro did it on the Carbonaro effect, but it
was originally done by a magician named Doug Henning. I
can go on. But it's really cool where it looks
like you're smushing a person or an object down and
then you have this clear disk where you see like
these they were wearing, or Michael Carbonard did it with
dogs and puppies, so you see like the dog fur
and then you put the disk back in and it

(39:08):
opens back up and the dog or the person is
back inside of the machine. So it's really cool, but
that is not misdirection. So wait, Morgan Freeman a famous
truth teller, why to us God? Also like, it's just
this movie is so messy. Yeah, there's a lot of

(39:29):
problematic people. See. Okay, that's very good to know because
I was because of the amount of time this movie takes.
I would say like a good third of the movie
is just explaining what happens in other parts of the movie.
And I was very curious as to like how much
of this was rooted in any reality in the magic world.
Some of it I felt like obviously wasn't. But the

(39:51):
more specifics, it's like, I don't know, Like, so that's
not it. So they got the first thing wrong. It's
what you're saying. They also get in the interrogations scene
where Jesse Eisenberg says, first rule of magic always be
the smartest person in the room, which is not the
first rule. It's not even on the rules of magic.
That's not a thing like, no one, you don't have
to We're just like we're playing with cards and coins.

(40:14):
It's great. No, that's never the thing. The first rule
magic is don't tell anybody how the trick is done,
which obviously Morgan Freeman doesn't know. It seems like what
happened was that the writers, when this is my guests,
the writers went, you guys know that magician, the masked
magician who revealed a bunch of magic in the nineties, Well,

(40:34):
have Morgan Freeman play him and like explained how magic
is done. Do you know anything about magic? No? But
I know some words, and they just put it into
a movie, and that's where we get, oh, yeah, here's
some misdirection. No no, no, that's a trapdoor. But it's not.
There's no misdirection used in that moment at all. Like
just the explanations of stuff were like you had a

(40:57):
magician and you could have been like, hey, re this,
how accurate is it? And I imagine that magician would
have gone, not, nope, let me fix it, and then
it would have been better. But I don't know. Here
we are, we're only still in the first Also, um, okay,

(41:19):
we'll yeah. So Saddius is explaining to Rhodes how the
trick was probably done, how the magicians had already stolen
the cash from the bank prior to the show, and
they just made it seem like the money was being
stolen from Paris and teleported back to Vegas. Saddius also
tells Rhodes about someone named Lionel Shrike, which I keep

(41:42):
hearing a Shrek Yes, of course, Wow, great, someone killed
Shrek and I'm supposed to want to watch this movie
fucking unbelievable, And then that means canonically that Mark Ruffalo
spoiler alert is Shrek son well, if he's the Hulk Green,

(42:03):
Now I like this movie. Now I'm a fan, and
I'm back, and I actually make the great perfect story
ever told. It's the story about how the Hulk is
Shrek son. Wow, that all gets answered in Now you
see Me too, so right, and then furthermore, now you
three me yeah, oh my gosh. Okay, So we learned

(42:27):
about Lionel Shrike, a magician who Thaddius had exposed in
the seventies. Shrike, then I'm sorry. Shrek tried to then
stage a comeback, but it didn't work. He is thought
to have drowned in the East River while performing a trick,
although his body was never found. But then it turns

(42:48):
out he actually did die during that trick, so why
were they like and then we didn't find his body anyway.
Then it's time for the Four Horsemen's next show in
New Orleans, Rhodes, and all follow the magicians there. They
speculate that there's possibly an unknown fifth horseman who is
orchestrating things behind the scenes. Also, Alma has been reading

(43:14):
about magic and she's reading about this guy named Shrike.
I wrote in my notes at this point it's all
very shriky in similar to Shreky in Okay, so I'm
I am. We were on the same page where you're like,
that sounds a little bit too much like Shrek in
two thousand thirteen, where Shrek was had been one of
our most popular celebrities for over a decade. Correct. Yeah,

(43:38):
the screenwriter one of many fumbles, and Alma is all like,
I don't know, magic is pretty cool. I like, I
like believing in it. And then Rhodes this whole thing
is magic is silly and it's all fake. I am skeptical.
I am Mark Ruffle. Uh. Then at the second show
in New Orleans, Daniel Merritt, Henley and Jack do a

(44:00):
bunch of tricks, and then the big finale at the
end is them redistributing Arthur Trestler. That's Michael Caine, Arthur
Trustler's on forty million dollars to the people of the audience.
This is one of the more fun elements of the
movie where it's like the parts where they're redistributing like nasty,
disgusting wealth. You're like, that's I wish I didn't hate

(44:23):
these characters so much because they're doing something that I
fully support, but they're so unlikable, I know. So the
whole thing there is that the members of the audience
were all insured by Arthur Trestler's insurance company, which screwed
the people in the audience, completely screwed them over after
Hurricane Katrina. So they get the money that was owed

(44:46):
to them right out of Arthur Trustler's like personal bank account.
The show ends, Rhodes and Alma chase after the magicians
because they've just committed this big theft. They managed to
get away. Arthur Tressler is all piste that his money
was stolen, and he goes to Thaddius to be like, hey,

(45:08):
help me expose these four horsemen and bring them down.
But Rhodes thinks that Thaddius might be in on the
whole thing. He thinks that maybe he's the fifth horseman.
So we're like Red Herring much, which didn't make sense. Um.
Then Rhodes and Alma are able to track and locate

(45:30):
the magicians in New York. There we are there for
their last big show. So Rhodes and Almah go to
New York. They find the apartment where the magicians are staying.
There's a big chase. Three of the horsemen get away,
but then there's this magic fight between Roads and jack
a k Dave Franco, who's really I'm so excited to

(45:55):
hear your your insight on that, Kail, because I did
not see that scene coming, and I was like, like
it was he was so ready for that in a
way I wasn't prepared for as an audience. Ever, is
now a good time for me to go into that
because I would be happy too. It's very brief, to
be completely honest, Go ahead, if you if I were

(46:16):
to say, give me the three things you know about
how magic is done, you would probably say mirrors, magnets,
and hiding things behind your hand. And that's all they had.
That was it. That was the entire fight. It was
like this is so this This scene right here showed

(46:40):
no magician was asked about anything because clearly it was
just the three things everyone understands magic is. There were
so many mirrors? Why were there so many? Why no magicians?
I barely have mirrors in my home. I have enough
that I can go do, I look fine, and then

(47:01):
I can leave. It's not a thing we just have
lying around that are these massive Like no, doesn't come
stop it and then it's like oh yeah, whoom boom cards. Now,
I will say the accuracy of cards being thrown and
it hurting is very accurate. Very So when I was
a kid, I went to my very first magic convention

(47:22):
and we all threw cards. We tried to get it
into the chandelier in the lobby. Um, we got in
trouble but whatever. And when we were throwing cards, Uh,
they accidentally hit this person and she had to go
to the hospital because it hit her eye, like it
was bad. So this does happen. There was another person
she also got hit, but I think it just caught
her face. But there was someone who had to go

(47:43):
to the hospital. Um, so this is actually it hurts.
I've been hit too, but not tear like I'm not injured,
but that is painful. If someone can throw cards really well,
it can actually hurt. You probably have heard of Ricky
j who can throw who could throw cards into the
outside skin of a watermelon like fool pierce it like amazing,

(48:06):
So that's probably the most like yeah, okay see, but
also even that, that's like a typical magician thing, being
able to throw cards and it like hit things with accuracy.
So it's just a lot of really typical. The only
thing that was missing is him going abracadabra bitch as

(48:28):
he jumped out the window. Like that's the only thing
they could have added that. I would have been like, yeah, there,
that's the fourth thing you missed is some weird magic phrase.
Otherwise it's just everything everybody thinks about magic, and so
it's there was just no creativity put into that at all.
There should have been an illusion there should like there

(48:49):
could have been a suitcase he goes in and comes
out of another one, Like there's tons of stuff you
could have done it with that right nothing, which I
feel like it must be even more frustrating because it
seems like is what is supposed to be cool about
the movie, but then the one time they do it,
they do the most boring thing and then it just
goes back to not making sense. Uh yeah, yeah. It

(49:12):
just I feel like what they were a lot of
people will be like, oh, we just didn't want to
make it too out there, like we wanted it for
people to We wanted people to know what was going on,
and it's like it's a fight scene you watched John Wick,
Like that doesn't make any sense, but it's happening. Most
fight scenes defy the laws of physics. So if you
also have magic in your movie, like yeah, play with that.

(49:34):
Take advantage of that. Right. There was so much they
could have done, and like I think I had like
twenty ideas just watching it and was like, Okay, I
mean you should write a movie. Now you three Me
hired Kayla, save the franchise done? Now You three Me
is iconic, very weird title for a movie, but I'm

(49:57):
a big fan. I'm a big fan. It's great. Okay.
So there's this fight between Roads and Jack. Jack seems
to be safeguarding this stack of papers. There is then
a high speed car chase in which Jack crashes the
car he's in explodes, and he seems to be very dead.

(50:18):
The papers get rescued, though, and they turn out to
be information about a company called Elk Corn or something.
I lost the thread for a few minutes both times
I watched the movie. At this point. I don't know
what these papers were. I don't know what Elk Horn is.
I don't know anything about that. That was so confusing
to me. Okay, good much less why Dave Franco would

(50:40):
die trying to keep that secret, not sure what he
would stand to gain unclear, But the FBI thinks that
the Horseman's next target is a safe full of half
a billion dollars, which gets loaded into a truck, so
Rhads and his people chase after it, but the safe
turns out to be full of balloon animals. Meanwhile, the

(51:03):
Four Horsemen's third and final show is happening in Queens,
which is just to show where the horsemen jump off
a roof and then explode into money, which is kind
of fun, but I'm like, yeah, it was weird that
they really risked it all to just be like by

(51:25):
If I had been an audience member in that show,
I would be so disappointed because it lasted all of
five minutes and was not satisfying. So they explode into money.
It turns out to be fake money, though, because the
Horseman used the real money to frame Saddi Us and
make it seem like he stole the money. So then

(51:48):
Rhodes pays a visit to Thaddius in a jail cell.
Thaddius explains how they must have stolen the real safe,
how Jack didn't actually die in the crash, how they
did a bunch of illusions and switch ruse, I'm sure
that's perfect terminology. Can any nuts any nuts for us? No? Yep,

(52:12):
a nail in it. Meanwhile, in Central Park, Daniel Henley
and Merritt reunite with Jack, who is in fact still alive,
and they await the Fifth Horsemen to reveal themselves, and
it turns out to be Dot Dot Dot Dylan Rhodes
a k a. Mark Ruffalo Baffle playing the longest con

(52:35):
I've ever heard of. Okay, you do a con so
long you've become a police detective for like twenty years.
I'm like, what are you talking about? And also we're
led to believe that he would have been the one
bank rolling this three part show, like this whole thing.
He would have had to pay for the magicians to
fly to Paris to mind trick Et t Enn, like

(52:58):
he can afford that and like a massive fortune. But
you're like, yeah, I mean, first of all, whatever, I
mean the there's multiple government agency there's like multi level
copaganda going on in this movie. But like on your
average police detective salary, how is any of this possible?

(53:19):
I don't know? And yet cops are still paid too much.
But there's all played far too much for a job
that shouldn't exist, but like, but they're not paid like
MGM Vegas five nights a week money, Like it's just well,
it's so baffling. What about the Eye, Like you know that,
you know that club that completely makes sense? What about

(53:40):
their budget? Because maybe they have a big budget that
we just don't know about. So I couldn't even figure
out how to work this into the recap. But there's
also this like secret society of magicians called the IE.
They're vaguely using tarot cards for reasons. You're like, so
apparently Mark Ruffalo's character is like one of the members

(54:03):
of the I and he is trying to induct the
four Horsemen. I don't know. I couldn't make sense of it, really,
so I left it out of the recap. But maybe, yeah,
maybe the I was bankrolling this whole thing. Point is
Mark Ruffalo, in a big twist, turns out to be
the mastermind of the whole thing because Lionel Shrek was

(54:25):
his father and he is avenging his father's death because
all movies are about fathers and sons. Of course, yeah,
famously they are, but also I would love a movie
about Shrek's son avenging Shrek's death. That is the one
time I will majorly make an exception for my annoyance

(54:45):
at the fathers and sons troupe Hey struck five at
the beginning, and Shrek Jr. Has to avenge Shrek Sr's death. Yeah,
I would love that fingers crossed. Um. Okay, So the
reason that Mark Ruffalo was like targeting these people specifically.

(55:07):
It turns out that the ensurer who denied Shrek's family's
claim was Tesla a k a. Michael Caine. The bank
is related in a way that I didn't understand even
a little bit. And then the company Elkhorn started as
a safe manufacturer and they made the shoddy safe that

(55:30):
Shrike wasn't able to escape from, and that's why he
died doing that trick. So that's why Mark Ruffalo is
targeting these people specifically to avenge his father's death and
get back at these people. So that's the story. Let's
take another break and we will come back to discuss

(55:57):
and we're back. Okay, Kayla, is there anything that jumps
out to you right away of like, well this is
weird or wrong, or like, is there anything that you
wanted to kick off with? Oh? Boy, if not, that's fine,
We've got plenty to go through my notes. Obviously, Like,

(56:17):
obviously the representation of magic is not great in the movie,
and we've discussed that, but also the representation of women
is pretty horrible. It's also very bad. So I know
you talk a lot about this on your podcast, Kayla.
How as far as the representation of women as magicians
just as a career, it's not the most common thing.

(56:40):
When magicians are represented in media, women are often excluded
women who are magicians. You've told us stories about how
there's just so much sexism in the industry. This movie
does include a woman as a magician, but no, also no,
because you don't see her doing magic ever. Really she's

(57:04):
I felt like she was, and I that my feeling
on I just felt like it's so I feel like
this also like specifically happens to Isola Fish or a lot,
and she's very talented and she's always like I like
Cassidy's roles where she's just underutilized in a way that
is very unfair to her talent. But even like, it
just felt like they fucking arranged this group like it
was the fucking Chucky Cheese band. They're like, okay, three guys.

(57:28):
Well there's this guy, and then there's this guy, and
then there's the goofy guy, and then there's girl. No
further personality traits. She's just sexually harassed, and we're told
that she's interested in the main guy for reasons that
are unclear and honestly baffling given the way he talks
to her. That's very true. So funny enough. I actually

(57:48):
used to be in a tour. I was in a
tour for four years exactly like this, where there were
five magicians. I was the woman. But I will say
this tour, the producer and the magicians would go out
of their way on a regular basis to make sure
I could never be portrayed as an assistant. And the
best example I can give, besides the fact that like

(58:11):
I had my own stage time for twenty five minutes
by myself and not like doing magic without anybody else
being a part of it. That's great, But I remember specifically,
we were taking promo pictures and we were standing on
this illusion and I just like put my my arm
on one of the magicians, just like because the show

(58:33):
is very about our camaraderie, so I would put my
arm on that magician, and he goes, I really like
that idea. However, I'm very concerned by the fact that
you're doing that that some people will think you're my assistant.
And I was like, whoa, I didn't even think about
that great idea. And because just the idea that I
would like put my arm on his shoulder, someone could

(58:54):
see that and go, she's clearly the assistant because she's
attached to the male magician. So that is the level
at which we have to think in order for people
to not automatically think the woman's the assistant, because that's
the knowledge people have right now. They all they also
don't always think like, oh wow, I'm seeing a woman

(59:16):
perform magic. That's cool. That must be rare. Not all
audiences go to that length, but they definitely will assume
that if there are two magicians performing together, one presents
is a male, one presents is a female, that the
woman and must be the assistant. And there's a lot
of work you have to do a lot of the

(59:38):
duos in magic. They have to do a lot of
work to make sure that she is seen as a
magician and in this partnership. So when you look at
this movie. I make the argument that the only time
she actually does magic is in her solo show. She
even references how she was Jesse Eisenberg's assistant, and a
lot of women who are solo performers now start off

(59:59):
as assist and so that's actually really common. But then
going into the show, we see her carry the bunny,
she puts the bunny in the box, right, who does
the magic? Jesse Eisenberg waves the wand who blows up
the bubble that she then levitates in It's the same
as who shows off the table and moves their hands

(01:00:19):
as the woman gets levitated the magician. She's not seen
as the magician. She's the prop that's being levitated. It's
the same exact thing we have on Shasanne. We created
our own little test, which is called the table test,
which is can a woman be replaced by a table
with wheels? And if the answer is yes, she's not

(01:00:40):
a magician. She's an assistant. The script doesn't matter because
you could put the script with anybody. But if all
she does is the same that a table does, she's
the assistant. There is no point in which she actually
could not be replaced by a table and narratively who
like not just her role as a magician who is

(01:01:05):
not doing magic in the movie. I believe that Whatdy
Harrelson's character with sexually harass a table where like so
as we pointed out, like in that interrogation scene towards
the beginning, there's a lot of focus in the movie
placed on the two horsemen, Daniel and Merit, where Henley
and Jack often fall into the background, which makes some

(01:01:29):
sense from a screenwriting point of view. You can't have
like tons of focus on like a bazillion different characters.
There's often not enough real estate for that. But the
fact that like Henley is one of the ones who
falls by the wayside and doesn't get to do much
again narratively speaking, and then even Jack, who is kind

(01:01:50):
of right along is with her in that sense of
like he's not given much focus. But then he is
sort of towards the end where he's the one in
that fight scene, he's the one in that car chase
to think that he dies. He definitely ends up having
more narrative impact then, I mean, it's like totally definitely

(01:02:10):
by the end, like he's I mean, it's it's still dissonant,
but like you're like, oh, Jack took on I mean
it's like not like I preferred that you would think
that Isla Fisher died like that's not but but it's
like he definitely took on more narrative meaning as it
went down, because went on right, because then he's the
one in the flashback who had broken into the safe

(01:02:30):
and he steals that half a billion dollars and yeah,
so he's doing way more than Henley, and certainly Daniel
and Merritt are doing way more. So she just ends
up being the one character in these four horsemen who
basically doesn't get to do anything and kind of you

(01:02:51):
could write her out of the script and it would
not change the story and it really at all it
felt to me like of the many dissonant but as
it like pertends to her character, it felt like there
was kind of this like empty movie feminism gesture made
at the beginning of the movie, because she says in
her first scene with Jesse Eisenberg, like, I'm not your

(01:03:14):
assistant anymore. You can't boss me around, like and it's
kind of this like girl but like and it's like,
you know, it doesn't become an empty girl power moment.
If the story then follows through on that. But that
gesture at the beginning was completely hollow because, like you
were saying, Kalis, she's completely treated like an assistant for
basically the remainder of the movie, and so it's like, well,
why did they even bother to have her say like

(01:03:36):
leave me alone, I'm not your assistant anymore when that
is very much how the movie views and treats her
so and also she has no problem with it ever
again and in the same way where it's like this
is movie ship that is really like, I find it
so frustrating, especially because it's like, oh, that has to
suck for the actor who has to do that too.
For like Aila fisher Um when she's being sexually harassed

(01:03:59):
by the Woody Harrelson character, which is all the time,
she'll like, there should be like a term for what
this is in movies, where it's like she pushes back once,
but by the end of the conversation she's like, ha, ha,
you're you're wild you that's our Woody, you know, Like
at the beginning she's like, oh, I guess i'll when

(01:04:21):
he basically says like, well, I know you're in love
with Jesse Eisenberg, which is the only way that we're
told that she's in love with Jesse Eisenberg is by
Woody Harrelson claiming it's true. I don't see it in
the story or the characters at all, because is it
even trapped shaming her in spite of the fact that
she's very thin, like does all of this wild fucked
up stuff. He treats her like shit. But Woody Harrelson's like,

(01:04:42):
y'all love each other, and they're like, well, I guess
we do, and like, which is weird in itself. But
then he's like, oh, well, you're a tight like you're
you're a tightly corked, like you think funked up, like
you need to fuck me. Like he's saying, I'll fuck you,
don't worry, And she's like, oh well, I like she
she deflects, which kind of like, I mean, she could

(01:05:06):
have thrown something at his head, but in that situation,
you're like, Okay, she's trying to brush him off, like
leave me alone, fuck you. But then by the end
of the conversation, the script, which is written by three men,
has her be like ha ha, that's how it ends.
She goes t he she goes he over and over,
and it's and and then we're led to believe it's

(01:05:27):
not like a subtext moment of like she's doing that
because she doesn't know what else to do. I think
we're when we see that, we're supposed to think it's
funny and the character is fine with it, right, because
I mean, we're all familiar with the horror of being
harassed by someone, but you work with that person or
you know there's some circumstance that it makes it really

(01:05:49):
difficult to push back on it because you know your
job is at steak, or you know something's at steak,
but the movie doesn't acknowledge that in any way. And yeah,
like you said, Jimmy just like presents her being harassed
as something that actually she might kind of secretly like
a little bit. And at the very least it's a
silly joke. It's I think you're both nailing it, and

(01:06:10):
with this particular issue because women are so few and
far between in magic. It's probably about seven percent of
anybody that's a magician, from like a hobbyist to a
full time professional or magicians, but only two of professionals
are women, So the number is really low already, and
you don't see that that number is not reflected when

(01:06:32):
people are first starting out in magic. When people are
first starting out of magic, the maturity of the classes
are often women, are often people of color, and you
watch those people quit slowly as they go through magic,
and it's because of it. They either don't see themselves
reflected in magic. They come up against too many barriers, like, oh,

(01:06:54):
my skin is not white, so I guess I can't
use these props and there's nobody that makes them in
my skin in tone, I don't know what to do
moving on, Or oh, I don't have pockets and I
need like some massive pockets in order to do this trick.
I guess I can't do that trick, and eventually I
guess I can't do magic. This happens all of the time.
But then when you start to add in more of

(01:07:16):
the horror and harassment and bullying that exists because magicians
are have a mentality that's still in the fifties, you
end up having and you have a movie like this
of a young girl sees this movie and it's like cool,
a woman like she's doing magic. This is awesome, whether
or not they see her do magic. But they see

(01:07:37):
this scene, that young girl is one hundred percent going
to be spoken to like that by an older magician
at some point in her life. It just it's going
to happen at a magic club meeting, at a convention.
It's gonna happen. And now she has watched this movie
and it's in her head going, oh, I should just

(01:07:57):
laugh it off, and like that sucks. That's such trauma
that she's later going to need to work out in therapy.
I know, so right, Like that is it's so impactful,
and already in a world where the lack of diversity
is astounding and the lack of inclusivity is even more astounding,

(01:08:19):
You're like, this movie doesn't help, doesn't help us. Go hey, actually,
like that's not okay, And actually here's a woman doing
her own magic, and you know, of course we can
get into it. But I also have in my notes
like Morgan Freeman, the black magician quit magic to sell

(01:08:40):
out for money and then got framed and arrested. What
you know, the one the one magician of color in
the movie. What are we doing? So this movie just
it just doesn't help issues that we're constantly seeing optics
are so bad. The optics are terrible to me. What
you think about this, Kayla? So this is such a

(01:09:02):
brief moment in the movie where if you blinked, you'd
miss it. But I feel like there's something significant here
where when the four characters are being introduced at the
very beginning of the movie, and we see Henley's solo act,
you know, she's and I'm about to jump in this
tank of water and if I don't escape in sixty seconds,

(01:09:23):
I'll be eaten by piranhas and then her two assistant
So I think our men rip off her clothes and
then she's wearing this like sparkly bathing suit in a
way that makes it seem like her act is sexualized
to some degree? Is there, Like, do you find that
there is like pressure among the women who are operating

(01:09:47):
on a professional level as magicians to do stuff like that,
to like have to kind of sexualize their act or
like present as more quote unquote sexy, to have audiences
engage with them more or like take them more seriously,
Like is ah is that a thing? The first time
I was told I needed to be more sexy on stage,
I was thirteen. That doesn't surprise me, but I am

(01:10:10):
still horrified and there. I mean, it's like that ship
existing comedy as well, but it seems like this is
it's like even more intense in magic, good lord. Magic
is a couple of decades behind comedy. If that kind
of helps give you an idea, is like, it's everything
that stand ups and comedians have experienced. Magicians also experience,

(01:10:35):
but we're a little behind the progress, and so it
is a thing. A lot of women have just either
chosen for themselves to be more sexual on stage or
they feel like that's the only way they can get
work because that's who they see getting work. And what

(01:10:56):
ends up happening, unfortunately, is that there's more effort put
into appearance than there is the skill, and then a
lot of people start to create the buzz of like, well,
she's she's beautiful, she's hot, she's sexy, but she's real
bad at magic, and then that becomes well, all women
are bad at magic, and that's sort of how the

(01:11:17):
narrative kind of continues. I remember when I wanted to
become a professional, I sat down with my friend who
for her entire life, she's been the sexy one, like
she's always been stunning. That's what she's worked on. And
I said to her, I don't want to do that,
but I feel like I have to in order to
get work, because that seems to be who gets work.

(01:11:40):
And she was like, don't do it. She just like
she was like, don't do it. I'm aging people won't
book me anymore because I'm forty and not pretty anymore.
And you know quote, I'm not pretty anymore. Right, of
course she's beautiful, she's freaking stunning, but because she's getting
older and you can tell, people didn't want to book
her anymore. And so she's like, if you can avoid

(01:12:02):
having work because of how you look, then that's brilliant.
And that's where I went, I think I should be
funny because I like being funny. But comedy doesn't rely
on how I look. It doesn't have to write. And
so that that was a really big turning point for me,
where I was like, oh, thank god, I don't have
to do that. But it's really really big in magic

(01:12:24):
and it's like the fact that that even needs to
be a discussion is like a you know, testament to
where that particular industry is at. And it's like that
that happens in many industries, but it seems particularly agreeous
in magic, like the fact that that's something that either
of you even need to consider, where it's like, that's
not a conversation that men in that industry are having.

(01:12:46):
They can just do magic right. And to be clear,
if someone wants to in any kind of performance like
lean into sexiness or sexuality, that's totally fine. If that's
what then it's more about like the pressure on specifically
women to hyper sexualize themselves in an effort to get

(01:13:07):
booked on shows and get work and all that stuff. Yeah,
and I love like. There was an act that floated around.
It was a viral video many many years ago, and
at the time I really didn't like it, but I
was quite young and didn't have a good headspace for
this yet. But she's a burlesque dancer and stripper who
would do a magic trick where she would make us
red silk vanish, and then she would pull it out

(01:13:29):
of an item of clothing and then take it, take
that item of clothing off, and then make the make
it vanish again and pull it out of a By
the time she's completely naked and she's pulling it out
of her vagina and it was it was It's a
brilliant act. It was so clever and smart and had
nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with
just be wit. It was like wit and even though

(01:13:51):
it's still very sexual And it's like, that's to me
the pitome of an act that can combine good magic
with good sexuality city and what ends up. And it's
unfortunate that there are so many women in the industry
that just care about the sexuality and really don't try
to do good magic because the sexuality is a crutch

(01:14:12):
so they're happy to use it. That's where I start.
I'm like, oh, man, I wish that that wasn't the reality.
But there are tons of women in magic that do both,
and they're so good and it's such a great show
that I super support being as sexual as you want to,
as long as the magic is also something you care about. Sure,

(01:14:32):
And it's like even I'm sure they could be people
who are perceived to be like leaning too much on
any given thing, Like there's a greater context for that
as well of like, well, you don't get there in
a vacuum and how you're you know, conditioned to value
yourself and an like there's just it just seems like
there's an incredible amount of layers in a way that again,
this movie does nothing to move the needle on and

(01:14:55):
just present the trope without any commentary or any indication
on how it makes the person being asked to execute
the trope, like, no indication on how it makes her
feel other than that one line of dialogue that has
not followed through on in any way. Yeah. Um. The
last thing I'll say about Henley's character, which is like

(01:15:15):
the other big yikes thing, is several comments made about
her weight where it's suggested it suggested that Daniel stopped
working with her because she was too heavy or too
big and couldn't fit through a hole for a trick.
It's kind of you have to speculate here, but it's
also like did he fire her because she was too fat?

(01:15:36):
Quote unquote, And then later in the movie when he
catches her on stage after the bubble pops and she
falls into the bubble, uh, he says, Oh, I guess
you have lost some weight. Mind you, we're talking about
Isla Fisher. Just the suggestion that like Daniel was like, yeah,
I had to fire Isla Fisher because she was too fat.

(01:15:59):
It's just completely absurd and just like insulting top to
bottom and baseline makes no sense. And also and it
was like, on top of being extremely fat phobic in
a way that in regards to this actor doesn't even
make sense, it also just like makes you hate Jesse
Eisenberg's character, which I don't think we're supposed to. So

(01:16:22):
it's like, right, just like how we're supposed to be
endeared by Woody Harrelson's character even though he's making transphobic
jokes and slurs and homophobic joke like that whole disaster.
The other major thing I wanted to touch on was

(01:16:43):
what I felt to be an extremely wedged in romance
between Rhodes and Alma. So again, Alma is the agent
from Interpool, she's brought in. She's also made to seem
kind of like a red herring for a while, like, oh,
what are her motives? Why is she some ways, I
genuinely felt was an excuse to let Mark Ruffalo continue

(01:17:06):
yelling at this woman, because it was like any time
you were meant to be suspicious of her, he would
have a rude confrontation of her with like belittle her skill,
which you're like, Okay, they're all fucking cops, so who cares.
But it's like the movie took on a lot of
opportunities to be like, let's yell at her again. It
was like what I mean, how many how many times

(01:17:26):
did they mentioned like, oh, this is her first time
off the desk, she doesn't know what she's doing. I
sit in the car, sit in the car. It was constant.
It's like part misogyny, part bad writing, part both. You're
just like, this is just a mess, even though she
has the best instincts and is the best at her
like detective job. But which I mean is is realistic

(01:17:49):
where you know, oftentimes the person who is overlooked and
mistreated on the job is the best at it, but
because of their gender or race or any other number
of factors, they are disregarded and not taken seriously. So
that was at least realistic, I guess. But then it
just means you have to see this woman mistreated by

(01:18:09):
this character who turns out to be someone who were
also meant to be endeared too, because it's like, oh
my god, Mark Ruffalo was behind the whole thing. He's
the genius who wrote the blueprints or whatever. So that's
and then the romance between them. I've never seen a
more wedged in romance. Suddenly they're kissing in the third

(01:18:29):
act and it's like they even seem confused as to
why they're kissing, and they're like gay. And then at
the end he's like, I have to come back for you.
I'm like, no, you don't. She's an Interpol officer that
you kissed one time. What's wrong with you? So that
was very bizarre, and I like that only happened because

(01:18:51):
she's a woman. There wouldn't be some random wedged in
romance otherwise. But it's just like, oh, well, we have
a woman and a man next to each other in
a story, and heteronormativity dictates that they have to kiss. Yeah,
that was egregious. It's also slightly similar with the Jesse
Eisenberg and Isla Fisher situation, which obviously, what when was

(01:19:14):
that a romance? They hold hands at the end. Oh,
I didn't even notice that. I believe it is one
of Isla Fisher's last lines in the movie. It was
so bad that I was like laughing where she's giving
her like corny end of movie line where she's like
even if we go to jail and even if everything
blah blah blah blah blah, and then Jesse Eisenberg interrupts her.

(01:19:35):
He's like, I know what you're thinking. And then and
then it was like, oh, okay, well clearly they belonged together.
He's being fucking horrible to her again, cool magic, so obnoxious.
The Jesse Eisenberg character, I have no I have nothing
good to say, what a nightmare. Hated him, hated the

(01:19:59):
Woody Herold. I like when movies make me dislike Woody Harrelson.
I resented He's so likable and his character is awful, awful. Honestly,
the character who like the least sleazy, most likable character
is probably Isla Fisher's character, which is wild because you
don't know anything about her like they like. She's also

(01:20:21):
the least characterized person in the whole movie. I think,
if we if we ever were wondering, like, what's a
quick example of how the writers feel about women. The
line of when Morgan Freeman says to Mark Ruffalo, what's
the role of a magician's assistant? And Mark Ruffalo goes
she distracts the audience while he sets up the trick

(01:20:42):
and it's like, well, that's all you need, that's all
we needed to know how you feel. Thank you very
much done. The thesis statement of the movie. Does anyone
have any final thoughts? Got it all out? The last
thing I'll I will say is that a better movie

(01:21:03):
about the descendant of a magician seeking revenge by stealing
things of great value? Is Paddington too? Abracadabra. Yeah, good twists.
That's the real twist. Mark Ruffalo, God, the Mark Ruffalo twist.
I was dying. It's really funny because even like Mark

(01:21:26):
Rufflo doesn't look totally sold in his performance that what
is happening makes sense. He's like, yeah, it was me,
it was it was me. Things a carous all. You're like,
I gotta get me out of here. Altogether, it doesn't
even pass the factual test. No, I don't think so.
I don't think women interact. What I thought was interesting

(01:21:49):
was and this is not a compliment, but there's a
number of we've referenced some of them. There's a number
of female characters who the movie does go out of
the way to give names to audience members. Are given
names almost every time. Other officers that only appear in
one scene get names. The woman that um Interpol lady

(01:22:10):
rents an apartment from in New Orleans gets a name,
Like there's all of these women that get names, but
then they never speak to other women, and sometimes, like
in the case of the woman who rents the apartment,
never speak at all, which is especially egregious because I
don't think that there's like any there's there's no women
of color that have a significant roles in this movie,

(01:22:32):
even though they're cast in like one offlines or like
in a single scene. And then I and then it's like,
I Love Fisher's kind of like being Princess Lead in
this movie, where she's like she's not given anyone to
talk to, or it's like Isla Fisher and the Interpol
agent are like Princess Lead in different storylines. Could have
so easily passed if Isla Fisher was to ask one

(01:22:56):
of the women in the audience what their bank account
number was, but that did not happen, or if we
see like Alma interrogating Isisle Fisher's character, but that also
doesn't happen. Also real quick the second show where they're
stealing from Michael Caine and redistributing it to the audience
who had been affected by Hurricane Katrina. There is a

(01:23:17):
black woman who has a bank account balance that increases
by seventy thousand dollars, and we're like, oh wow, this
is great, everyone's going to get seventy thollars, but then
everyone else. The next thing that happens is a white
woman gets two hundred and eighty thousand dollars, and it's like,
you can't just if you're going to redistribute the wealth,

(01:23:39):
you can't what I think that's like, it's the subjects
of that was. I think that they were trying to
give each person what they were owed from Hurricane Katrina insurance,
but it's like it doesn't scan at all, and it
seems and it comes off very aggressive for no reason,
like yeah, and then like the optics of like giving

(01:23:59):
one of the few you woman of color in the
movie at all with line like way less like a
quarter of money that than a white woman gets, Like
what also she had seven hundred dollars? Like why did
we need to make the black woman living in poverty? Yeah,
that too, That's how she came in, That's how she started,

(01:24:20):
Like we did not help. What is happening this movie sucks.
It's so fucking lazy to the pot where I'm like,
did the screenwriters even like register the optics of what
they're doing? It just seems like it was written in
this bizarro white guy vacuum. I don't know. This movie
sucks so bad as most movies are so our scale

(01:24:42):
of zero to five nipples, based on examining the movie
through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this movie
zero nipples. Now you see no nipples, I'll meet you there.
No no nipples for the movie. I can't imagine how

(01:25:03):
frustrating it is to be constantly asked questions about this movie.
It's it's just constant. Listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna be
a little controversial here, and i'm gonna give it half
a nipple. And the only reason why is that there
was a woman in the magic show who spoke like that.
That's already a leg up then most magic things that exist.

(01:25:28):
So the fact that she had a microphone during the show,
I'm gonna give it a half. That's fair. Yeah, but
what what a low bar to set. I know, what
a stinky ass movie. I'm now you three me canceled, ruined.
I hope that this episode this destroyed and then there

(01:25:49):
should be a movie about women doing magic. For crying
out loud, are there are last question for you? Are
there movies about magic that you would recommend to our audience.
I like The Prestige. I like The Prestige too. I'm
glad I have to watch it again. But I wouldn't

(01:26:10):
I wouldn't say you should watch The Prestige for like
any sort of intersectional feminist fund. I think it's just
I love Hugh Jackmant. But other than that, no, not
that I can think of. I'd imagine if we covered
that movie on the podcast it would similarly get I
don't think it would do very well. I just it's
just at least a competently made movie. It's a competently

(01:26:33):
made movie. I So I'll tell you the most accurate
magic movie to ever exist is The amazing Bert Wonderstone.
It's a not a good movie, but it's the most
accurate to the magic worlds. Like the opening scene where
Steve Carrell has the biggest bed in the world. That's
like a straight ripped off of Chris Angel's life. So

(01:26:53):
there are a lot of that is very, very accurate.
So if you want to know, like what magic actually
looks like. Not a bad one to watch, all right,
Thanks for that wreck, and thanks for coming on the show.
It was such a treat to have you come back
any time and tell us where people can follow you,
plug your podcast, etcetera, so you can find out more

(01:27:15):
about what I'm doing. My website is magic in Heels
dot com and that's also all the social media's Magic
and Heels. And then my podcast if you're interested in
finding out about more about diversity and inclusion in magic
and Allied variety arts or lack thereof of diversity and
inclusion in Allied variety arts. Uh, it's she's am pod
dot com or she's am on all your favorite podcast places.

(01:27:39):
Thank you both so much for having me. I'm so
glad we finally did this. This is awesome. Appreciate you.
We're very very happy. Thank you again, and you can
follow us on Twitter and Instagram at pecktel Cast. You
can subscribe to our Matreon at Patreon dot com slash
pecktel Cast. You get to bonus episodes every month, plus
access to the entire back cattle, all for five dollars

(01:28:02):
a month. Get merch at tea, public dot com, slash
the back tel cast if you are so inclined, everyone,
I have a confession to make. Yes, this may not
make any sense, but um um it was me. Oh
my gosh, Jamie, is your dad Shrek? My dad is Shrek?
And he died. Oh no, And so I became a

(01:28:25):
cop and then I waited twenty years and now I'm
avenging Shrek. Wow. What a compelling story, What a perfect
setup for a sequel that actually happened wild well, goodbye,
bye bye,

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