June 7, 2018 • 46 mins
Inspired by this week's movie, Ocean's Eleven, Jamie and Caitlin and guest Edgar Momplaisir plan an elaborate heist to steal and destroy the patriarchy!
(This episode contains spoilers)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the Bedel Cast. Hi, and welcome to the
Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. His name is
Jamie Lofts, and we talk about the portrayal of women
(00:21):
in movies podcast that you're listening to. That's right. Oh
my gosh, oh that was a little chip and a
little chip that was reminded me of your slurpers. My
kissing sounds um alright, So anyway we talk about women
in movies. We determine if movies pass the Bechdel test,
which we do more than that. We do so much
(00:41):
more than that. Yeah, But for those who aren't in
the know, the Bechtel test is a test that requires
that a movie has two female characters in it who
have names, they talked to each other, and they cannot
be talking about men whatsoever. Let's pay a test. Okay,
Hey Jamie, hey, kit, do you like apple juice? I
(01:03):
can't take it or leave it? And that passes the
Bechtel test. Wow, and what an exciting premise for a
movie will make content. Yeah, I see like a six
or seven sequel franchise really fully bankrolled by Mots. We're sellouts. Mots.
You listening all right? So we're here with a guest,
(01:23):
as we always are. Um, they say, a friend of
the show. But this is kind of an enemy of
the show, my personal enemy. None of the show of me. Okay,
so enemy of Jamie friend of me. Uh. He is
a writer, a comedian and co host of the Culture
King's podcast that's on the house Stuff Works Network. Edgar
mon plus here and whoa coming in hot? Caitlin. Thank
(01:49):
you so much for having me. Caitlin. You're an old
friend of mine. It's been so good. I was talking
to Caitlin fine. Thank you for saying Jamie and I
have a long running beef because she has outdone me
as a guest how Stuff Works podcast. You know you
(02:10):
have to wow. Should I be like the referee of this?
That means a new outfit? That sounds fun. Well anyway, Edgar,
We're so happy to have you here, and we are
talking about Oceans eleven, the two thousand one version directed
by Steven Soderbergh. Yeah, Edgar, when did you first see
this movie? Probably when I was a kid. My dad
(02:32):
and my uncle's are big fans of the Channel Networks
USA and T n T, so I would watch this
movie and many other movies like it rotation. Yes it is,
Yes it is. So i'd watch this movie as a
kid all the time. I do have a problem with
this movie and that I don't know the difference between
(02:52):
the three very well. So when watching it, I kept
waiting for that Elvis scene and it never happened because
that's not in this one. And I was like, Oh,
this Elvis scene is going to happen at some point.
Wait which one is that? I think it's in twelve
If I'm not really because I just also rewatched that
and I don't remember it might be. I don't know.
(03:13):
There's a scene where it's a bunch of elvis Is
and then they all do and then that's when Bernie
mac dies. Am I crazy? That does happen? I think
maybe it is. Yeah, I don't think it's twelve, definitely
not eleven. All right. Well, the only reason why I
remember that scene specifically is because there was one time.
This is a terrible story, but I'll tell this part
of the story. Anyways, I was having sex with a
(03:34):
person the day of my best friend's funeral. We were
in a hotel and that movie was playing on the TV,
and I think as a way to cope with the
death of my best friend, I became immediately more focused
on the movie and I was trying to see whether
it was eleven, twelve or thirteen based on various clues. Interesting,
I believe it was thirteen. I'm still not sure until
(03:54):
this day, but probably the worst sexual experience I've ever
had in my life. Yeah, you can never enjoy like
you Trauma Bond speak for yourself, Jamie. That's true. I
didn't enjoy it at all. Something very upset. Yeah, I
had a really bad breakup. My boyfriend came over to
be like, hey, I've been cheating on you. In the
middle of a John ban A documentary I was really
(04:14):
excited to watch, and I was so sad. Katie Perry, she, well,
I'll never know how it ends, was she, Katie Perry. No,
it was a really bad one that came out that
where they smashed a pink said with a hand like,
this is what it would have been like that. That's
a very popular internet conspiracy is that John Baniy Ramsey
grew up to be Katie Perry. What. I have never
(04:36):
heard that before. The other good one is Avril Levine
that she was dead and replaced with a body doublet
I have heard that one. That's a good one. Interesting
all right, Well, anyways, speaking of long cons wowsition, Jamie,
what's your what's your history with Oceans eleven? I know
(04:59):
that I thought it was the Big Chilly. It's not
the Big Chill. It's actually a different movie. But I
have seen it before. My mom made me watch it,
and she was horny for various cast members, and so
I think we probably watched that tant or something I
guess I would like in middle school or something. Sure,
I understand that particular attachment to it. Don cheatles like
(05:20):
Cockney accident really really inspired a sexual awakening for me.
Really not like a good Cockney accent though, right, Like
it just sounds really fake. He's very hot in this movie.
Don't in this movie? Don't you always? But his his accident?
I was like, is that right? I don't know. I
was struggling with I bought it. I have a clarification
(05:42):
to make It's not Oceans eleven. It's a different two
thousand and one's Las Vegas highest movie called three Thousand
Miles to Graceland. Oh oh, well, that explains the Elvis
is Yeah, why have I seen that scene? I mean,
maybe you've seen that movie. Maybe I have seen and
it's not Bernie mac who dies, it's bochim Woodbine. I
(06:04):
would like to apologize to any Bokim Woodbine fans who
were just like, how dare he disrespect him? There? I
mean they're listening. They're listening. Get a lot of a
lot of tweets. Thanks for your clarification. Community is gonna
go fucking wild. I saw this movie in the theater
Huge Break in two thousand one. At the time, I
(06:24):
really liked it. I didn't know what this movie was about,
or hadn't heard of the original nineteen sixty versions, so
I like had no context for it, and I just
went in kind of blind and I was like, oh
my god, this is the best movie ever. So cool.
I wrote like a paper about it in college. I really,
for the longest time, really really loved the papers about
(06:45):
so many It's because we went to college so much.
It's because I went to so many colleges including Boston
University four master's degree in screen writing. I hate to
bring it up, but but yeah, I really enjoyed this movie,
but I haven't rewatched it in quite a few years,
so I am excited to talk about it. It's interesting,
(07:07):
and we have for some reason, covered a lot of
movies that came out in the year two thousand and
one on this podcast, because every time you talk about
something that happens in two thousand one, you have to
figure out what part of two thousand one it came
out in, if it was pre or post Shrek exactly.
That is where that is, of course, the major event
of two thousand and one. Yeah, Shrek was the last
(07:28):
knell of innocence that because I was like July and
then this came out in December, which I you know,
it's just worth saying because when you say two thousand one,
you want to know. And also it in you know,
nine leven, unfortunately informed all media consumption habits forever after that.
That's so interesting that it came out post eleven, because
(07:48):
it's a movie chalk full of explosives. Yeah. Yeah, and
then I was I was wondering that I had to
stop it in the middle to be like, but it
did so well, Like it was super sich like the
highest grossing film two thousand one, right right, yeah, and
like I don't I wonder why this movie like did
so well, and it's I mean, I mean, it's an
all star cast. It was like everyone hans of a
(08:09):
listers in this movie. One of the reasons we're doing
this movie is because Oceans eight is coming out, and
of course there you can only have eight because there's
only eight actresses total total in the word originally there
aren't eleven actresses, so they can only have eight. Well,
my guess is that they're gonna they're planning this as
a trilogy, so they're going to do Oceans eight, nine,
(08:31):
and ten, and then there's already eleven, twelve, and thirteen,
and then they're going to bring it back around with
a co ed cast. Is my guests for fourteen, fifteen,
and sixteen. But if they're going to have to cut
out so many people, I mean, I guess some of
them are dead so they don't have to worry about that.
But like, or they just totally recast it altogether, or
(08:53):
they can just stop. I'm I'm tired, I'm tired. The
extended Ocean in eleven Universe and then and then it's
gonna be where do we leave off his four? Then
it's going to be seventeen, eighteen and nineteen comprised entirely
of non binary, gender fluid, gender queer people. Can they
(09:15):
just make a movie like? Why does they have to
be in? Oh? Okay, so we're well, let's let's get
into the movie. But I just have to say that
everyone hates Jeli right, but Danny Ocean is a worst
name for a protagonist than Larry Jeelie and I will
die on that hill. I couldn't. I was like when
(09:36):
he's like, my name is Daniel Ocean, I was like,
this is a fucking dumb name name. I disagree, I think,
and honest I really do. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm surprised
by this because it's not good and you thought I
had better taste. I came in here being like, man,
they're going to really dislike this movie. But then I'm
(09:57):
surprised to see that. I'm more with Jamie being like, yo,
this is this movie is kind of wild in some ways,
and you're like, you're defending I'm kind of well, here's
the thing. I love a good heist movie. And this
is a fun romp. This is a romp and I
love a good romp. And hey, all tender matches taken
(10:19):
up this woman. Yeah, Daniel Ocean worst name than Larry
ge sound off so my mentions, Look, Larry is a
fun name, Larry with really terrible Okay, I'll do the recap. Yeah,
(10:43):
let's do it. So Danny Ocean best name in Hollywood,
the best name of a character ever, mixing up up
with played by George Clooney. He's released from prison. He
was there because he's a comm man. He's a thief. Yeah,
he's that. But he was handsome. He was handsome. So
they're like, here, you can be in prison for four
years and we'll just let you go. It's handsome and
(11:06):
white privilege. And so he's like, I have an idea,
and he gets a gang together to rob three casinos
in Las Vegas. Ever heard of it? And they're all
owned by Terry Benedict. So that is a great name.
Hate Danny Ocean. Love Terry Benedict. I don't know. I
had an issue with his name being Terry Benedict, and
(11:27):
I was like, yeah, I was just like, how do
you get pet Nade. He sounds like a breakfast. Give
me the Terry Benedict, I wish, I wish that. Okay.
My two favorite character names for men, Dan Mansion, I
think is a better name than Danny Ocean Dan Mansion
and then Mike randoma from what's that from? You say it?
(11:51):
Say it, Mike Randma. My grandma sounds like my grandma innocent?
What an innocent joke. I'm gonna edit that out. Okay, Okay.
So Danny is getting his gang together. They form a plan.
They're like, we gotta get past all this security. We
gotta get inside the vaul. Then we have to get
(12:12):
back outside the vault with all this money. They have
to heck into the main frame. And everyone has this
like certain specialty. There's eleven of them total, get it.
That's the name of the movie. Everyone's playing a few
different roles in this whole heist thing. And then Frosty
tips others don't, such as Rusty Ryan played by Brad
(12:32):
pitt Uh. He and Danny are bros. They are BFFs.
But he figures out that the reason that Danny Ocean
is going after these three casinos and Terry Benedict is
because Terry Benedict is dating Danny Ocean's ex wife Tests,
She's fully lost in the Benedict sauce she loves. She
(12:53):
orders him for breakfast every day. Oh, I'm on Terry's team. No,
I'm kidding. He's bad. He's real bad. Okay. So then
Rusty's like, Danny, what are you doing bros? Before hose
And Danny's like, no, this isn't going to affect the plan.
(13:13):
And then they do the heights. There's like some twists
and turns, mostly everything goes according to plan and they
get the money. And then at the end, Test basically
learns that Terry Benedict is a capitalist who loves capitalism
and capitalists. He loves his money more than he loves women.
(13:34):
So Tess leaves him to go back to Danny and
then they all live happily ever after. It's competent because
I love money more than men. So in that way
I can connect with Terry Bennedict's point of view. Yeah
you're yeah, I'm a Benedict apologis. So not surprisingly, there
(13:55):
is only one female character in this movie, the entire movie,
the entire there I I made a list of all
the women with speaking roles, and I think it's only
four of them that we see on screen, and then
a couple of disembodied female voices at the very beginning,
and a lot of disembodied female body parts, yes, that
are not given voices. And I would, with some exception,
(14:18):
to probably extend those criticism to like most movies that
take place in Las Vegas, of like using women as
set dressing in a major way. Like there's literally the
first big card game in this movie. You can just
see like legs, yeah, in a window, like you, but
just legs. One woman is allowed to be playing cards,
but she can't say, you know, she's and we I
(14:40):
don't know if we ever learned her name. I think
her name is Holly, the woman playing cards. Yeah, oh no, no, no,
she's a celebrity. Well I don't mean to explain, but
like she's like she's a celebrity, and I think she's
the lead from Charmed and the ideas that Bratt Pitt's
character now is teaching, yes, famous people how to play cards.
(15:01):
So she's one of the famous people playing cards. But
again I put an asterist on that famous because not
a single one of the people playing cards at that
table are relevant anymore anymore. The closest a long yeah,
and josh Joshua Joshua Jackson and Shane West. And then
(15:23):
I didn't recognize any of the other people, so I
didn't he's the lead from Charmed, like not Shannon Dartie, Holy,
Marie Combs. Let's see holl Marie Combs of One of
my favorite was Pretty Little Liars. Oh, I think that
I guess that could have but then she just, yeah,
she was like she wasn't allowed to talk very much.
She basically just says call over and over again because
(15:43):
she's playing poker. So yeah, it was okay, okay, Yeah,
she is one of the four women who we see
on screen with speaking role, but yeah, she's only in
the movie for a couple of scenes and then we
didn't never see her again. Another one is the is
a blackjack dealer in the very beginning that Danny Ocean
talks to for maybe thirty seconds. That's frustrating too, because
(16:05):
the first like a couple of minutes of the movie
you see there's like a few female characters. One of
the people interviewing Danny when he's like getting out of jail. Yeah,
like you can tell, like it's a female voice, but
you're just looking at George Clooney the whole time. And
then the black jack scene you hear the voice. I
think you see her once in like one shot, and
(16:29):
then you just look at George Cluney the whole time,
and then once Bernie Max on screen, then you cut
back and forth. But for the first couple of women
who could appear on screen, they just like to be like,
or we could just look at George Clooney right, like,
we don't need to see women women. Well, the fans
paid to see George Clooney, and dammit, thir they spent
(16:49):
their to this blackjack deal there they everyone saved up
their hard earned clune bucks Clooney cash. When I was
hitting it hard at that gas station in two thousand one,
I wasn't saving my money to see some blackjack. You're
saving for some Clooney. Do you guys accept car fresh
(17:11):
off of that Batman and Robin fame. Oh sure, Yeah.
So that's half of the characters already, women who we
immediately cut away from and then don't see again. Another
one who named Charmaine. She's a stripper who plays a
very very small role in helping them get an access
card that they need to like hack into the main frame.
And she's also very important because she is, to my knowledge,
(17:32):
the first mother and daughter strip repair I've ever heard of.
M met me and my mind go to the Foxy
Lady and Massachusetts. When I heard that joke, I was like,
this is such a weird joke to be making. Was like,
say hi to my mom. Right, well, I want to
talk about that conversation a little bit later. But so,
(17:52):
the main female character is test played by Julia Roberts.
We do not see her on screen until forty four
minutes into the movie, and when she does come on screen,
Matt Damon's all like, who's the best part in my day?
And then we cut to Julia Roberts wearing like a
(18:14):
foxy red outfit. There's like sexy music playing and she's
like walking down the stairs like very so it's like
very male gaze, like, oh, look at this foxy lady,
And then we learned that basically the plot of the
movie is that Danny Ocean is targeting these three casinos
(18:37):
because Terry Benedict stole his woman and he wants to
win her back because he sees this woman as something
he can steal, just like any other like con that
he wants to pull, Like, yeah, classic, I see romance
in this, I don't know, and I don't know, I
truly do see romance in this. Is like it is
(18:59):
an interesting version of the plot of so many movies,
which is like, I'm gonna trick her into loving me again, right,
like the little road, you know, George Cloney's rebin is
a little pause together, He's gotta he's gotta a rack coloon,
a little rack Cooney a little He's like like a raccoon.
(19:20):
But yes, sorry, let me keep explaining. He's gonna out
Benedict Terry at his own game. And there I forgot
that that was the setup of the movie. I just
remember that they were stealing stuff. I forgot that it
was like and then she'll have to marry me like wright, right,
(19:42):
So like that's a big romance. I mean, like it's
a big romantic gesture. It's a wide swing. You could
look at it that way. You could also look at
it and that he basically views her as property because well,
I mean, we don't know how necessarily Danny Ocean feels
about the situation, but I think it's pretty clear that
the movie is coming from a standpoint where she's essentially
(20:04):
a plot device, because it doesn't really make any sense
that she is with Terry Benedict, but it's convenient for
the story because then that motivates Danny Ocean to pull
this heist, because we as we see in so many movies,
we don't necessarily understand why Tests and Terry Benedict are
together because they don't seem that compatible. Because Tests is
(20:27):
not actually a fully realized, developed character. She's with him
because it serves the story and it's convenient for the plot,
and Test is a really poor, like underwritten character where
a lot of like the tropes they lean into, and
and every character in this movie is underwritten, maybe with
(20:47):
the exception of Danny, like he's the only character that
you were like, okay, I think I fully get where
this guy is coming from, even though you know, I
don't agree with it, but whatever, But there's just like
too many bull in this movie in general, where nine
out of the eleven men blend together. For me, I'm like,
oh there, why would you put Matt Damon and Bradbitt
(21:08):
like they have the same face. It's confusing, But like
Test Ocean classic. We gotta give this woman a job.
She's an art curator, like that's so many movies, or
like she runs you know she like because I I
wonder why that's like a classic, like more of like
a rom com trope of like, oh, she's does business,
(21:29):
but like girl business, you know, like not it's not
too threatening if she runs a gallery. I don't know
if you know this, but women can only be museum curators,
or they work at a magazine in New York City,
or they own a bakery, or they're a wedding planner.
I love when they're journalists, but then they get a
(21:51):
little too into this story and then the lines blur
in there that kiss. Those are all good jobs as
high paying job was Okay, they're good five figures a year.
It's true. They have gorgeous apartments all the time. Listen, Okay,
I mean she was baiting a casino mogul, you know.
(22:12):
I mean that's a good place to be. The terry
they say that he's worth nearly a billion dollars, So
is that in usd S or Benedict? But I did
want to say that, like I found it a little
bit interesting that like a trope that I hated movies
is that, like the person that she's seeing is like
(22:32):
a bad person. Like I've always hated that in movies
because it's just like they broke up with you originally
because you were a douche are like you know, like
I don't like the idea of like you can steal
someone away from their partner may be based on my
own insecurities of that happening one day, but like, um,
I was like kind of rooting for it to happen
because I was like, yo, you know this Terry Benedict
dude's kind of a douche. But oh sure, I mean
(22:54):
we don't like him as the audience of course, right,
but like the Terry Benic character being so flat out
like cartoon villainy mustache, twisty evil. I feel like the
reason that's done is because Danny is not a good guy.
And so you know exactly like you have to make
someone wearse and the rules of this cinematic universe is
(23:15):
girl has to be with someone so rofully, the one
that is more handsome and less bad like, and that's
just sort of what the rules of engagement are. There's
never there's never a moment in the movie where it's like, oh,
she's gonna she's gonna strike out, you know, yeah, and
then open up her own museum. But no, yeah, exactly.
So we find out at the end that Danny has
(23:37):
set it up so that she will have a choice,
but the choice is to pick between two men. So
it's either do you want this ex con criminal who
steals and lies about it or do you want this
capitalist who treats you poorly and doesn't want to kiss
you in public, which, like, what was that all about?
(23:57):
I don't I mean. Also, it's like maybe Terry thatgic
just like shy, maybe he does. Maybe maybe he doesn't
defense of about it? Now all people like PDA makes
some people uncomfortable. Who knows. Basically he is a bad
guy and it doesn't make any sense that she would
be with him. But yeah, So the movie sets it
up so that she has given a choice, but her
only two options are to be with one guy or
(24:20):
different guy. And that's that's the thing with so many movies.
They're like, oh, do you want to be with the
vampire or the wear wolf? Do you want to be
with the boy who bakes cakes or the boy who
calls you cat nip, I just see good choices here.
I I'm so stuck, guys. I'm truly you know, I
truly said Edgar, come onto this podcast with an open mind,
and I did, and all I'm hearing are good choices,
(24:42):
you know. Like I think about Juno in the very
very good movie Juno, where she had to pick between
a high school senior or married Jason Bateman, and like,
that's a good place for a pregnant underage girl. Good choice,
good choice icon Jason Bateman really ally to all. The
(25:03):
bottom line is that this movie, like so many movies,
if they have a female character, it's usually just one
of them in the movie treats them like they're a
prize to be one. To borrow a phrase from Aladdin,
where Jasmine says, I Am not a prize to be one,
but she sort of is, but is like so many movies.
(25:24):
But um, no time is spent developing her character. If
she is on screen, she's usually like seems mean and
yelly and like naggy. I wonder how much, like okay,
if we did screen time, how much Julie robertis on
screen versus how much time of this movie is used
with long shots of a large pack of men walking
(25:45):
down to hall ominously like it has to be three
times longer in walking down halls. This movie cut out
all the men walking down all the halls. Toymn is
long A short film, a short film best, But there's
just we've seen this peg and I was like, this
is this is scary. There might be more security camera
(26:07):
footage than Julia Roberts screen time. Honestly, yeah, absolutely, Like
they're caseyf like problematic. Cacyf like probably has more right,
right right. I just yeah, there, this movie didn't And
I still love a heist movie, and I hope that,
like I hope Oceans eight like knocks it out of
the park and it's a fun, highst movie that you
(26:27):
don't have to feel shitty watching because heist movies can
be so fun. But I mean, obviously with Ocean's eleven,
they're adapting it from an even more problematic version that's
has anyone seen that one from I've seen it once
a long time ago. I haven't seen it, so yeah,
(26:47):
but like so basically, yeah, we've got the all female
reboot coming out. Oceans eleven from two thousand one is
already a reboot, and it's like forty years later, but Mr.
Hollywood was like, let's make an Ocean's eleven reboot, but
we're still going to keep it all men. So it
took another almost twenty years later for them to be like, actually,
(27:09):
what if women this time? Yeah, Frank Sinatra plays Danny
Ocean otherwise known as Larry Jalie in the original version,
and I don't remember how much is changed from that
version to this. I'm assuming that some changes are made
and hopefully this movie, right they Yeah, And the first
(27:31):
time it's just was just Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah, it's
just so dumb because all like all eleven dudes, like
nine of them are so criminally underwritten that literally any
of them could be women because they're not even written
as like toxic male character. They're just written as like
nothing right there. It would be so easy to have
(27:54):
And I'm kind of surprised that by two thousand one
they weren't doing like a wink wink. Even this is
like set in the bar Sola, but like you can't
even tokenize the woman in this part of Like there
were so many opportunities where it was like, oh, this
would be if there were one woman on the team
where she would prove her competence and all the guys
would be like, WHOA love that scene and that well
(28:17):
that sort of happens in Ocean's twelve. I haven't I
didn't watch Ocean's thirteen, so I can't totally remember who
the extra person is. And yeah, so Tessa's character is
introduced as one of the twelve in the sequel. That
movie is I would say, even worse than this one,
because even I think that's two four see and that
(28:39):
to me, I would like to applaud Steven Soderbergh because
he said, you know what, just wait three years and
I get you guys frustration and you guys anger of
your lack of representation, but like progress does take time,
and to get Julia robertson there three years later, I mean,
that's pretty impresive, stunning turnaround. Well, there's even a couple
more female characters that one, because Catherine data Jones is introduced.
(29:02):
We meet someone's mom eventually, but so tests becomes one
of the twelve, one of the people pulling off the heist.
But her skill, the thing that she contributes to the heist,
like the only thing that she has to offer is
her physical resemblance to another woman. So it's not as
though she has like this great skill like, you know,
because everyone like don cheatles good at um like explosives.
(29:25):
There's a surveillance guy, there's Yen who does like all
the like fitting into tight spaces, which isn't that glamorous
of the job. True, it seems very claustrophobic. Um, but
they all have like a distinct specialty. Whereas yeah, TESSAs
just like, oh, you look like another woman, so you're
going to help us out, and also we're going to
(29:45):
make you seem pregnant time. And then the plot of
that movie is basically just one big dick measuring contest.
At least Ocean's eleven has the decency to not even
really mention whom in one time. There's it was interesting
watching um and I don't even know what this indicates
(30:07):
about the movie or at this point in time at all,
but you know, you keep seeing obviously these scenes with
like eleven guys talking to each other, and I was like, Oh,
they're gonna say something sucked up there. It's gonna be gross,
it's gonna be whatever. But they don't. They really just
talk about the heist. That's all they talk about. Women
don't come up in this movie really ever, which is
weird because it's the thrust and the reason they're doing
(30:30):
it is because George Clooney want him wife back. But
the dialogue of the movie largely like, you never know
women existed. That's because we don't. And I don't know
if you guys have ever hung up with ten or
eleven men, but it's something I do every other day.
We don't talk about women in those times. We usually
(30:51):
are talking about heist. You know, different casinos that we
want to hit. Any group of ten and see ten
or eleven men together, they're probably planning a heist or
hoping that a woman who looks like another woman comes by, right,
just just to help out the team, you know Julia
Real Guys Galt and Oceans Well in Oceans eleven. Whenever
(31:15):
they are talking about a woman, that's usually Brad Pitt
confronting George Clooney basically being like, you're not doing this
for tests, are you were? You're just doing this because
you're also a capitalist and you want a bunch of money, right, Basically,
like Brad Pitt sees her as a complication, like she's
poised as this thing that's potentially going to funk up
(31:36):
their plans. And I do agree that one should not
steal from casinos for the purpose of tricking. Julia Roberts
pits point there, but I think there it's like an
interesting like that's made another way that the test character
is like used by the movie and then never developed.
(31:57):
Because it's fine for characters to have specific reasons to
be in the movie, pure you also have to write it,
and they forgot they slipped. But the fact that, like
George Clooney, displaying emotion or attachment to anyone is viewed
as this massive liability for the for the group. Another
thing I wanted to say in regards to Tests is
(32:20):
that at the end, whenever she makes her choice, the
very important choice that the movie presents her with where
she only has two options to pick one man or
a different man and not Oh, maybe I should leave
these men all together and move to somewhere else and
pursue Maybe I'll go and date someone who doesn't have
(32:41):
a silly last name, or maybe I'm going to go
back to school and study art history and open up
my own museum. Anyway, basically, what's going to happen to
the economy in seven years. She's basically made to look
stupid at the end, where whenever she is like, oh
(33:02):
my god, I didn't know what you were doing, Danny,
and he was like, well I did, so it's fine.
So the whole movie she's who are my wife? Again?
When she's on screen, she's like yelling and seems really mean,
and then she makes her choice to go back with Danny,
and then she's like, oh, wow, what a stupid mistake
(33:23):
I made dating Terry Benedict. I should have been with
you all along, Danny. And it's just very frustrating her characters.
I wants to talk about their first their first conversation
together Danny and Tess, because he is looking for her.
She does not want to see him and expresses that
several times in the conversation. This is like another where
(33:46):
there's like a bunch of rom com tropes inside of
this highst movie where the guy shows up, he is
not welcome. That is stated. She says, don't sit down,
go away, Like there there's a bunch of different indicators
that she doesn't because Terry fucking Addict is on the
way a god among men is blazing down the hall,
you know, but like she she doesn't want him to
(34:07):
be there, and him staying there is like, oh what
a you? You little devil? You like it's not made
to seem inappropriate. It's just like George Clooney cluning the
fuck out and it's like, no, but she actually wants
him to stay, which is like implying that subtext and
an underwritten female character happens all the time, and it's
(34:29):
like super damaging and bad for sure. Get out of
their clue, get out. I just wish that Clune with
like two do one match dot Com is around. He's
George Clooney. You can't but listen, okay, you can't. You
can't gather up your boys for just some match dot
Com like person. You know what I'm saying, Like it's
(34:50):
got to be somebody special. I'm just saying he should steal,
absolutely steal from Terry Benedict. But like, but also, I
have an interior life. If and have your match dot
Com profile, and that's a separate thing. Don't involve your
don't don't mix work and and play. Have you ever
had unrequited love before? No, I'm I've only been loved
(35:13):
by who I want all the time my whole life.
I've only had unrequited love in my life. And I
can tell you that there are so many things I've
done that have never resulted in the woman. And uh,
to see this workout was you know, very very continued
in't like not good behavior. No, I didn't say that.
(35:34):
I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I wanted
to be very clear that I'm not telling young men
out there to do anything. Actually, I'm telling most young
men out there don't do anything. Please. Still, bad things
happen when you do things. But I want to be like,
it feels good to see a man win for once,
(35:55):
you know what I mean, like an even better see
eleven men win Jesus. I mean I had to contain
myself while watching this. Yeah, I mean there's a reason,
I know, what look groundbreaking cinema to watch a group
of men win. I mean, there's a reason I like
(36:17):
this movie and I still like this movie. Um yeah,
I mean I was entertained while I was rewatching it. Yeah,
I don't know. It's just the fact that he does
this whole thing to basically prove his masculinity over another man.
He's like, I have to like make sure that my
ex wife, who doesn't love me anymore because she filed
(36:38):
for divorce, I have to prove to her that I'm
more of a man than this new man that she
has chosen for whatever reason, and I'm better than him. So,
I mean, just so much of his behavior is like
not like that when when someone slips her a phone
terrifying behavior and then called and like and and then
(36:59):
the fact that it one of his big romantic gesture
moments is like, I've been secretly taping your new boyfriend,
Terry Benedict. Like, if you apply this to rettal life,
you're like, holy sh it. This is if your ex
comes out of the woodwork to be like, actually, your
new boyfriend is not a good guy. I know because
I've been secretly surveilling him for weeks. And well, then
(37:19):
I would ask you, Jamie and Caitlin, what would you
propose us to do? Would what would you propose? What
would you say that he Danny Ocean should approach Tess
and say, hey, look, I've done really bad things in
the past. I've been a jerk, I've manipulated you, I
lied to you, and I'm sorry I'm not expecting anything
in return for this apology. I'm just saying that, is
(37:40):
that what you're proposing he should do, right, That sounds silly,
That sounds dumb, because I mean, that sounds like a
lot of work. And if she says, if she is
open to the idea of maybe rekindling a thing like
a romance, there probably doesn't need to be a huge
grand gesture. Maybe he just needs to pay attention to
her and cater to her emotional needs. Well, I counter that,
(38:01):
Caitlin by saying, every piece of media I've seen since
I was born tells me otherwise. Then you're right. You
should do what media tells you to do, because it's
always right there, I don't, I mean. And then part
of the reason she didn't want to be with him
is because he went to jail for like stealing, stealing,
and thenlined her right, and then he wins her back
(38:23):
by once again stealing, un lying to her, and then
it's like, but this time nothing, It's exactly. The only
difference is he does not get fully caught, like he
pulls it off. That the only difference. But we all
know that things are only bad when you get caught
and you get. Well, that is true there, but the
(38:44):
the lesson there of like no women want you to
keep doing exactly what you were doing, but just be
the best at doing it. And it's like the terrible
behavior that caused her to you know, he went to
jail and then I don't know if they broke up
forfore he went to jail, or if they broke up
because he went to jail. I don't know if that's
explicitly stated. He says that he received the divorce papers
(39:07):
the last day he was inside, so they were technically
married for a for the most of the time he
was in jail, which I think we're led to believe
is a few years, right, And it sounds like she
wasn't like visiting him, right, but like just setting that
precedent of like do the exact same thing, but as
long as you get away with it, she'll love you.
Like it's Yeah, it's a dangerous message to send it rules. Yes,
(39:32):
I'm in love with Criminals. Does anyone have any other
final thoughts about the movie? Uh, it's weird. There's there's
really just test to talk about. Uh, this movie largely
ignores women and a way that's so blatant. I find
it almost adorable where it's like we've got eleven men
(39:52):
in every scene and women don't exist. Like it's just
very very haisty, hive mind. I think this movie could
have done with more hacking sequences. I would have loved
to see more hallway walks. I would have loved to
see more emotional repression. And I think Alfred Molina would
have been a great Terry Benedict. Oh, sure, see. I
(40:15):
think there should have been more Danny Ocean standing in
front of Trump Plaza. I thought they also should have,
you know, between like Casey Affleck and then like Matt
Damon saying tone deaf stuff all the time. I think
they really could have gotten more problematic men in there. Yeah. Yeah.
And the fact that we get shout out to Trump,
(40:35):
very pro casino, pro gambling movie. I loved that we
were seeing women's legs but never their faces or hear
their voices and not know if it was attached to
a body at all. Just the mystique, the feminine mystique. Really,
I think it's fair to assume, and I'll say it,
(40:55):
Oceans eleven a feminist text, definitely hundred sent. One other
thing I wanted to say, just in regards to Steven Soderberg,
I do think it's interesting that he goes on to
direct movies that are far more progressive and far more
sex positive. He directed Magic Mike. Oh yeah, so it's
(41:16):
Girlfriend Experience and the Yeah yeah. So It's like, it's
interesting and encouraging to see that the same director who
could direct this competent but ignoring basically everything kind of
movie can go on to make better, more conscious and
just like generally those two I like those two movies
way better in general. Um so, uh so that's good.
(41:40):
Is Steven Soarderburg Sex Criminal are winged? Not that I
have heard, But it's also hard to keep track of
them all because there are so many. One last thing
that I wanted to say, this is very important is
that inside of the briefcase that ends up in the
vault in the movie Oceans eleven inside is basically four
mean Heart of the Oceans from Titanic. They're like little
(42:04):
green jewels. And also Danny's last name is Ocean, so
his heart could technically be called of the Heart of
the Ocean. I don't know. This movie just completely swooned.
It's so confusing to me, um, does it pass the
Bechtel tests? Not even close? But okay. So I wanted
(42:27):
to call back to that conversation that Brad Pitt is
having with that character Charmaine, because the closest thing this
movie has two women interacting with each other is Rusty
saying to Charmaine, say hi to your mom for me.
So he's encouraging her to talk to another woman. But
she responds and says, tell her yourself. She'll be on
(42:47):
stage in five minutes. So she's like, I don't want
to talk to another woman. That can't happen in this movie.
You talk to her. I want to see that movie, Like,
that's the movie that is more interesting than the one
I'm wanting. All right, let's write the movie based on
our nipple scale, based on its portrayal of women zero
(43:07):
to five nipples. I mean, gosh, it's confused, zero nipples.
Like the one woman who has any significant screen time,
which is still hardly any, and who has any sort
of bearing on the story is basically just a plot device,
a prize to be one. She's given no character development. Yeah,
(43:30):
She's really just there to serve as motivation for one
of the male characters. And to make him seem more
complex and more sympathetic. So yeah, I have to give
it a zero NIP rating. Even though I do enjoy
this movie, I almost want to say, like not applicable
(43:50):
because women are just not in this movie or mentioned
in this movie, which I don't think we've ever had
a movie quite like this, where usually if we give
something zero poles, it's like it treats women terribly. This
movie doesn't treat women like anything. They don't exist in
this world. For Julia Roberts, who is you know, a
(44:11):
prop I would give this movie five nibbles because I
think that a woman could watch this movie and if
there's a woman out there who's just like, you know,
I'm in this relationship with this person that I'm not
sure I like, or I had this career that I'm
stuck in, that they can know there's a man out
there who's been purposefully keeping her in the dark and
you know, manipulating her and stuff like that, but with
(44:32):
good intention, and that it's all going to work out
in the end. We're all looking for art. Terry Benedict.
I mean, I'm looking for mind, Terry Benedict, and I
hope that he's listening right now. Well, I'll do you
one better and hope that you get a Danny Ocean.
I don't want to Danny Ocean if you've been listening.
But it's not about what. I'm an art gallery, I'm
(44:56):
an art curator, I'm an art I'm in Please marry me.
Uh well, Edgar, thank you so much for being here.
It was my pleasure. Where can we Where can we
find you? On the web? You can find me on
Instagram at awful gram, on Twitter at Edgar Mope. Was
here on the Culture Kings podcast on how self works
(45:18):
and I got this project coming out soon call sad
Boy Edgar. Make sure to check that out and you
can follow us on social media at Bacto Cast. You
can rate and review us on iTunes. You can go
to our website where you can buy our merch and
also sign up for our Matreon and check out Oceans
(45:38):
eight if you want we didn't really talk about. If
you want more more well, speaking of our matren, if
you want more of a take on female reboots and
whether or not they are useful at all, check out
our Ghostbusters episode. The two thousand and sixteen all female
reboot episode of that only on our Matreon for more
(46:00):
discussion on the all female reboot concept we get into
it and otherwise. Jamie, I just want you to know
that I would never steal a hundred and sixty million
dollars from you. Thank you so much. I aspired to
be your Tarry Bennett. I will betray you, all right.
Thanks for listening.
On the dol cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
it with the Bedel Cast. Hi, and welcome to the
Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. His name is
Jamie Lofts, and we talk about the portrayal of women
(00:21):
in movies podcast that you're listening to. That's right. Oh
my gosh, oh that was a little chip and a
little chip that was reminded me of your slurpers. My
kissing sounds um alright, So anyway we talk about women
in movies. We determine if movies pass the Bechdel test,
which we do more than that. We do so much
(00:41):
more than that. Yeah, But for those who aren't in
the know, the Bechtel test is a test that requires
that a movie has two female characters in it who
have names, they talked to each other, and they cannot
be talking about men whatsoever. Let's pay a test. Okay,
Hey Jamie, hey, kit, do you like apple juice? I
(01:03):
can't take it or leave it? And that passes the
Bechtel test. Wow, and what an exciting premise for a
movie will make content. Yeah, I see like a six
or seven sequel franchise really fully bankrolled by Mots. We're sellouts. Mots.
You listening all right? So we're here with a guest,
(01:23):
as we always are. Um, they say, a friend of
the show. But this is kind of an enemy of
the show, my personal enemy. None of the show of me. Okay,
so enemy of Jamie friend of me. Uh. He is
a writer, a comedian and co host of the Culture
King's podcast that's on the house Stuff Works Network. Edgar
mon plus here and whoa coming in hot? Caitlin. Thank
(01:49):
you so much for having me. Caitlin. You're an old
friend of mine. It's been so good. I was talking
to Caitlin fine. Thank you for saying Jamie and I
have a long running beef because she has outdone me
as a guest how Stuff Works podcast. You know you
(02:10):
have to wow. Should I be like the referee of this?
That means a new outfit? That sounds fun. Well anyway, Edgar,
We're so happy to have you here, and we are
talking about Oceans eleven, the two thousand one version directed
by Steven Soderbergh. Yeah, Edgar, when did you first see
this movie? Probably when I was a kid. My dad
(02:32):
and my uncle's are big fans of the Channel Networks
USA and T n T, so I would watch this
movie and many other movies like it rotation. Yes it is,
Yes it is. So i'd watch this movie as a
kid all the time. I do have a problem with
this movie and that I don't know the difference between
(02:52):
the three very well. So when watching it, I kept
waiting for that Elvis scene and it never happened because
that's not in this one. And I was like, Oh,
this Elvis scene is going to happen at some point.
Wait which one is that? I think it's in twelve
If I'm not really because I just also rewatched that
and I don't remember it might be. I don't know.
(03:13):
There's a scene where it's a bunch of elvis Is
and then they all do and then that's when Bernie
mac dies. Am I crazy? That does happen? I think
maybe it is. Yeah, I don't think it's twelve, definitely
not eleven. All right. Well, the only reason why I
remember that scene specifically is because there was one time.
This is a terrible story, but I'll tell this part
of the story. Anyways, I was having sex with a
(03:34):
person the day of my best friend's funeral. We were
in a hotel and that movie was playing on the TV,
and I think as a way to cope with the
death of my best friend, I became immediately more focused
on the movie and I was trying to see whether
it was eleven, twelve or thirteen based on various clues. Interesting,
I believe it was thirteen. I'm still not sure until
(03:54):
this day, but probably the worst sexual experience I've ever
had in my life. Yeah, you can never enjoy like
you Trauma Bond speak for yourself, Jamie. That's true. I
didn't enjoy it at all. Something very upset. Yeah, I
had a really bad breakup. My boyfriend came over to
be like, hey, I've been cheating on you. In the
middle of a John ban A documentary I was really
(04:14):
excited to watch, and I was so sad. Katie Perry, she, well,
I'll never know how it ends, was she, Katie Perry. No,
it was a really bad one that came out that
where they smashed a pink said with a hand like,
this is what it would have been like that. That's
a very popular internet conspiracy is that John Baniy Ramsey
grew up to be Katie Perry. What. I have never
(04:36):
heard that before. The other good one is Avril Levine
that she was dead and replaced with a body doublet
I have heard that one. That's a good one. Interesting
all right, Well, anyways, speaking of long cons wowsition, Jamie,
what's your what's your history with Oceans eleven? I know
(04:59):
that I thought it was the Big Chilly. It's not
the Big Chill. It's actually a different movie. But I
have seen it before. My mom made me watch it,
and she was horny for various cast members, and so
I think we probably watched that tant or something I
guess I would like in middle school or something. Sure,
I understand that particular attachment to it. Don cheatles like
(05:20):
Cockney accident really really inspired a sexual awakening for me.
Really not like a good Cockney accent though, right, Like
it just sounds really fake. He's very hot in this movie.
Don't in this movie? Don't you always? But his his accident?
I was like, is that right? I don't know. I
was struggling with I bought it. I have a clarification
(05:42):
to make It's not Oceans eleven. It's a different two
thousand and one's Las Vegas highest movie called three Thousand
Miles to Graceland. Oh oh, well, that explains the Elvis
is Yeah, why have I seen that scene? I mean,
maybe you've seen that movie. Maybe I have seen and
it's not Bernie mac who dies, it's bochim Woodbine. I
(06:04):
would like to apologize to any Bokim Woodbine fans who
were just like, how dare he disrespect him? There? I
mean they're listening. They're listening. Get a lot of a
lot of tweets. Thanks for your clarification. Community is gonna
go fucking wild. I saw this movie in the theater
Huge Break in two thousand one. At the time, I
(06:24):
really liked it. I didn't know what this movie was about,
or hadn't heard of the original nineteen sixty versions, so
I like had no context for it, and I just
went in kind of blind and I was like, oh
my god, this is the best movie ever. So cool.
I wrote like a paper about it in college. I really,
for the longest time, really really loved the papers about
(06:45):
so many It's because we went to college so much.
It's because I went to so many colleges including Boston
University four master's degree in screen writing. I hate to
bring it up, but but yeah, I really enjoyed this movie,
but I haven't rewatched it in quite a few years,
so I am excited to talk about it. It's interesting,
(07:07):
and we have for some reason, covered a lot of
movies that came out in the year two thousand and
one on this podcast, because every time you talk about
something that happens in two thousand one, you have to
figure out what part of two thousand one it came
out in, if it was pre or post Shrek exactly.
That is where that is, of course, the major event
of two thousand and one. Yeah, Shrek was the last
(07:28):
knell of innocence that because I was like July and
then this came out in December, which I you know,
it's just worth saying because when you say two thousand one,
you want to know. And also it in you know,
nine leven, unfortunately informed all media consumption habits forever after that.
That's so interesting that it came out post eleven, because
(07:48):
it's a movie chalk full of explosives. Yeah. Yeah, and
then I was I was wondering that I had to
stop it in the middle to be like, but it
did so well, Like it was super sich like the
highest grossing film two thousand one, right right, yeah, and
like I don't I wonder why this movie like did
so well, and it's I mean, I mean, it's an
all star cast. It was like everyone hans of a
(08:09):
listers in this movie. One of the reasons we're doing
this movie is because Oceans eight is coming out, and
of course there you can only have eight because there's
only eight actresses total total in the word originally there
aren't eleven actresses, so they can only have eight. Well,
my guess is that they're gonna they're planning this as
a trilogy, so they're going to do Oceans eight, nine,
(08:31):
and ten, and then there's already eleven, twelve, and thirteen,
and then they're going to bring it back around with
a co ed cast. Is my guests for fourteen, fifteen,
and sixteen. But if they're going to have to cut
out so many people, I mean, I guess some of
them are dead so they don't have to worry about that.
But like, or they just totally recast it altogether, or
(08:53):
they can just stop. I'm I'm tired, I'm tired. The
extended Ocean in eleven Universe and then and then it's
gonna be where do we leave off his four? Then
it's going to be seventeen, eighteen and nineteen comprised entirely
of non binary, gender fluid, gender queer people. Can they
(09:15):
just make a movie like? Why does they have to
be in? Oh? Okay, so we're well, let's let's get
into the movie. But I just have to say that
everyone hates Jeli right, but Danny Ocean is a worst
name for a protagonist than Larry Jeelie and I will
die on that hill. I couldn't. I was like when
(09:36):
he's like, my name is Daniel Ocean, I was like,
this is a fucking dumb name name. I disagree, I think,
and honest I really do. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm surprised
by this because it's not good and you thought I
had better taste. I came in here being like, man,
they're going to really dislike this movie. But then I'm
(09:57):
surprised to see that. I'm more with Jamie being like, yo,
this is this movie is kind of wild in some ways,
and you're like, you're defending I'm kind of well, here's
the thing. I love a good heist movie. And this
is a fun romp. This is a romp and I
love a good romp. And hey, all tender matches taken
(10:19):
up this woman. Yeah, Daniel Ocean worst name than Larry
ge sound off so my mentions, Look, Larry is a
fun name, Larry with really terrible Okay, I'll do the recap. Yeah,
(10:43):
let's do it. So Danny Ocean best name in Hollywood,
the best name of a character ever, mixing up up
with played by George Clooney. He's released from prison. He
was there because he's a comm man. He's a thief. Yeah,
he's that. But he was handsome. He was handsome. So
they're like, here, you can be in prison for four
years and we'll just let you go. It's handsome and
(11:06):
white privilege. And so he's like, I have an idea,
and he gets a gang together to rob three casinos
in Las Vegas. Ever heard of it? And they're all
owned by Terry Benedict. So that is a great name.
Hate Danny Ocean. Love Terry Benedict. I don't know. I
had an issue with his name being Terry Benedict, and
(11:27):
I was like, yeah, I was just like, how do
you get pet Nade. He sounds like a breakfast. Give
me the Terry Benedict, I wish, I wish that. Okay.
My two favorite character names for men, Dan Mansion, I
think is a better name than Danny Ocean Dan Mansion
and then Mike randoma from what's that from? You say it?
(11:51):
Say it, Mike Randma. My grandma sounds like my grandma innocent?
What an innocent joke. I'm gonna edit that out. Okay, Okay.
So Danny is getting his gang together. They form a plan.
They're like, we gotta get past all this security. We
gotta get inside the vaul. Then we have to get
(12:12):
back outside the vault with all this money. They have
to heck into the main frame. And everyone has this
like certain specialty. There's eleven of them total, get it.
That's the name of the movie. Everyone's playing a few
different roles in this whole heist thing. And then Frosty
tips others don't, such as Rusty Ryan played by Brad
(12:32):
pitt Uh. He and Danny are bros. They are BFFs.
But he figures out that the reason that Danny Ocean
is going after these three casinos and Terry Benedict is
because Terry Benedict is dating Danny Ocean's ex wife Tests,
She's fully lost in the Benedict sauce she loves. She
(12:53):
orders him for breakfast every day. Oh, I'm on Terry's team. No,
I'm kidding. He's bad. He's real bad. Okay. So then
Rusty's like, Danny, what are you doing bros? Before hose
And Danny's like, no, this isn't going to affect the plan.
(13:13):
And then they do the heights. There's like some twists
and turns, mostly everything goes according to plan and they
get the money. And then at the end, Test basically
learns that Terry Benedict is a capitalist who loves capitalism
and capitalists. He loves his money more than he loves women.
(13:34):
So Tess leaves him to go back to Danny and
then they all live happily ever after. It's competent because
I love money more than men. So in that way
I can connect with Terry Bennedict's point of view. Yeah
you're yeah, I'm a Benedict apologis. So not surprisingly, there
(13:55):
is only one female character in this movie, the entire movie,
the entire there I I made a list of all
the women with speaking roles, and I think it's only
four of them that we see on screen, and then
a couple of disembodied female voices at the very beginning,
and a lot of disembodied female body parts, yes, that
are not given voices. And I would, with some exception,
(14:18):
to probably extend those criticism to like most movies that
take place in Las Vegas, of like using women as
set dressing in a major way. Like there's literally the
first big card game in this movie. You can just
see like legs, yeah, in a window, like you, but
just legs. One woman is allowed to be playing cards,
but she can't say, you know, she's and we I
(14:40):
don't know if we ever learned her name. I think
her name is Holly, the woman playing cards. Yeah, oh no, no, no,
she's a celebrity. Well I don't mean to explain, but
like she's like she's a celebrity, and I think she's
the lead from Charmed and the ideas that Bratt Pitt's
character now is teaching, yes, famous people how to play cards.
(15:01):
So she's one of the famous people playing cards. But
again I put an asterist on that famous because not
a single one of the people playing cards at that
table are relevant anymore anymore. The closest a long yeah,
and josh Joshua Joshua Jackson and Shane West. And then
(15:23):
I didn't recognize any of the other people, so I
didn't he's the lead from Charmed, like not Shannon Dartie, Holy,
Marie Combs. Let's see holl Marie Combs of One of
my favorite was Pretty Little Liars. Oh, I think that
I guess that could have but then she just, yeah,
she was like she wasn't allowed to talk very much.
She basically just says call over and over again because
(15:43):
she's playing poker. So yeah, it was okay, okay, Yeah,
she is one of the four women who we see
on screen with speaking role, but yeah, she's only in
the movie for a couple of scenes and then we
didn't never see her again. Another one is the is
a blackjack dealer in the very beginning that Danny Ocean
talks to for maybe thirty seconds. That's frustrating too, because
(16:05):
the first like a couple of minutes of the movie
you see there's like a few female characters. One of
the people interviewing Danny when he's like getting out of jail. Yeah,
like you can tell, like it's a female voice, but
you're just looking at George Clooney the whole time. And
then the black jack scene you hear the voice. I
think you see her once in like one shot, and
(16:29):
then you just look at George Cluney the whole time,
and then once Bernie Max on screen, then you cut
back and forth. But for the first couple of women
who could appear on screen, they just like to be like,
or we could just look at George Clooney right, like,
we don't need to see women women. Well, the fans
paid to see George Clooney, and dammit, thir they spent
(16:49):
their to this blackjack deal there they everyone saved up
their hard earned clune bucks Clooney cash. When I was
hitting it hard at that gas station in two thousand one,
I wasn't saving my money to see some blackjack. You're
saving for some Clooney. Do you guys accept car fresh
(17:11):
off of that Batman and Robin fame. Oh sure, Yeah.
So that's half of the characters already, women who we
immediately cut away from and then don't see again. Another
one who named Charmaine. She's a stripper who plays a
very very small role in helping them get an access
card that they need to like hack into the main frame.
And she's also very important because she is, to my knowledge,
(17:32):
the first mother and daughter strip repair I've ever heard of.
M met me and my mind go to the Foxy
Lady and Massachusetts. When I heard that joke, I was like,
this is such a weird joke to be making. Was like,
say hi to my mom. Right, well, I want to
talk about that conversation a little bit later. But so,
(17:52):
the main female character is test played by Julia Roberts.
We do not see her on screen until forty four
minutes into the movie, and when she does come on screen,
Matt Damon's all like, who's the best part in my day?
And then we cut to Julia Roberts wearing like a
(18:14):
foxy red outfit. There's like sexy music playing and she's
like walking down the stairs like very so it's like
very male gaze, like, oh, look at this foxy lady,
And then we learned that basically the plot of the
movie is that Danny Ocean is targeting these three casinos
(18:37):
because Terry Benedict stole his woman and he wants to
win her back because he sees this woman as something
he can steal, just like any other like con that
he wants to pull, Like, yeah, classic, I see romance
in this, I don't know, and I don't know, I
truly do see romance in this. Is like it is
(18:59):
an interesting version of the plot of so many movies,
which is like, I'm gonna trick her into loving me again, right,
like the little road, you know, George Cloney's rebin is
a little pause together, He's gotta he's gotta a rack coloon,
a little rack Cooney a little He's like like a raccoon.
(19:20):
But yes, sorry, let me keep explaining. He's gonna out
Benedict Terry at his own game. And there I forgot
that that was the setup of the movie. I just
remember that they were stealing stuff. I forgot that it
was like and then she'll have to marry me like wright, right,
(19:42):
So like that's a big romance. I mean, like it's
a big romantic gesture. It's a wide swing. You could
look at it that way. You could also look at
it and that he basically views her as property because well,
I mean, we don't know how necessarily Danny Ocean feels
about the situation, but I think it's pretty clear that
the movie is coming from a standpoint where she's essentially
(20:04):
a plot device, because it doesn't really make any sense
that she is with Terry Benedict, but it's convenient for
the story because then that motivates Danny Ocean to pull
this heist, because we as we see in so many movies,
we don't necessarily understand why Tests and Terry Benedict are
together because they don't seem that compatible. Because Tests is
(20:27):
not actually a fully realized, developed character. She's with him
because it serves the story and it's convenient for the plot,
and Test is a really poor, like underwritten character where
a lot of like the tropes they lean into, and
and every character in this movie is underwritten, maybe with
(20:47):
the exception of Danny, like he's the only character that
you were like, okay, I think I fully get where
this guy is coming from, even though you know, I
don't agree with it, but whatever, But there's just like
too many bull in this movie in general, where nine
out of the eleven men blend together. For me, I'm like,
oh there, why would you put Matt Damon and Bradbitt
(21:08):
like they have the same face. It's confusing, But like
Test Ocean classic. We gotta give this woman a job.
She's an art curator, like that's so many movies, or
like she runs you know she like because I I
wonder why that's like a classic, like more of like
a rom com trope of like, oh, she's does business,
(21:29):
but like girl business, you know, like not it's not
too threatening if she runs a gallery. I don't know
if you know this, but women can only be museum curators,
or they work at a magazine in New York City,
or they own a bakery, or they're a wedding planner.
I love when they're journalists, but then they get a
(21:51):
little too into this story and then the lines blur
in there that kiss. Those are all good jobs as
high paying job was Okay, they're good five figures a year.
It's true. They have gorgeous apartments all the time. Listen, Okay,
I mean she was baiting a casino mogul, you know.
(22:12):
I mean that's a good place to be. The terry
they say that he's worth nearly a billion dollars, So
is that in usd S or Benedict? But I did
want to say that, like I found it a little
bit interesting that like a trope that I hated movies
is that, like the person that she's seeing is like
(22:32):
a bad person. Like I've always hated that in movies
because it's just like they broke up with you originally
because you were a douche are like you know, like
I don't like the idea of like you can steal
someone away from their partner may be based on my
own insecurities of that happening one day, but like, um,
I was like kind of rooting for it to happen
because I was like, yo, you know this Terry Benedict
dude's kind of a douche. But oh sure, I mean
(22:54):
we don't like him as the audience of course, right,
but like the Terry Benic character being so flat out
like cartoon villainy mustache, twisty evil. I feel like the
reason that's done is because Danny is not a good guy.
And so you know exactly like you have to make
someone wearse and the rules of this cinematic universe is
(23:15):
girl has to be with someone so rofully, the one
that is more handsome and less bad like, and that's
just sort of what the rules of engagement are. There's
never there's never a moment in the movie where it's like, oh,
she's gonna she's gonna strike out, you know, yeah, and
then open up her own museum. But no, yeah, exactly.
So we find out at the end that Danny has
(23:37):
set it up so that she will have a choice,
but the choice is to pick between two men. So
it's either do you want this ex con criminal who
steals and lies about it or do you want this
capitalist who treats you poorly and doesn't want to kiss
you in public, which, like, what was that all about?
(23:57):
I don't I mean. Also, it's like maybe Terry thatgic
just like shy, maybe he does. Maybe maybe he doesn't
defense of about it? Now all people like PDA makes
some people uncomfortable. Who knows. Basically he is a bad
guy and it doesn't make any sense that she would
be with him. But yeah, So the movie sets it
up so that she has given a choice, but her
only two options are to be with one guy or
(24:20):
different guy. And that's that's the thing with so many movies.
They're like, oh, do you want to be with the
vampire or the wear wolf? Do you want to be
with the boy who bakes cakes or the boy who
calls you cat nip, I just see good choices here.
I I'm so stuck, guys. I'm truly you know, I
truly said Edgar, come onto this podcast with an open mind,
and I did, and all I'm hearing are good choices,
(24:42):
you know. Like I think about Juno in the very
very good movie Juno, where she had to pick between
a high school senior or married Jason Bateman, and like,
that's a good place for a pregnant underage girl. Good choice,
good choice icon Jason Bateman really ally to all. The
(25:03):
bottom line is that this movie, like so many movies,
if they have a female character, it's usually just one
of them in the movie treats them like they're a
prize to be one. To borrow a phrase from Aladdin,
where Jasmine says, I Am not a prize to be one,
but she sort of is, but is like so many movies.
(25:24):
But um, no time is spent developing her character. If
she is on screen, she's usually like seems mean and
yelly and like naggy. I wonder how much, like okay,
if we did screen time, how much Julie robertis on
screen versus how much time of this movie is used
with long shots of a large pack of men walking
(25:45):
down to hall ominously like it has to be three
times longer in walking down halls. This movie cut out
all the men walking down all the halls. Toymn is
long A short film, a short film best, But there's
just we've seen this peg and I was like, this
is this is scary. There might be more security camera
(26:07):
footage than Julia Roberts screen time. Honestly, yeah, absolutely, Like
they're caseyf like problematic. Cacyf like probably has more right,
right right. I just yeah, there, this movie didn't And
I still love a heist movie, and I hope that,
like I hope Oceans eight like knocks it out of
the park and it's a fun, highst movie that you
(26:27):
don't have to feel shitty watching because heist movies can
be so fun. But I mean, obviously with Ocean's eleven,
they're adapting it from an even more problematic version that's
has anyone seen that one from I've seen it once
a long time ago. I haven't seen it, so yeah,
(26:47):
but like so basically, yeah, we've got the all female
reboot coming out. Oceans eleven from two thousand one is
already a reboot, and it's like forty years later, but Mr.
Hollywood was like, let's make an Ocean's eleven reboot, but
we're still going to keep it all men. So it
took another almost twenty years later for them to be like, actually,
(27:09):
what if women this time? Yeah, Frank Sinatra plays Danny
Ocean otherwise known as Larry Jalie in the original version,
and I don't remember how much is changed from that
version to this. I'm assuming that some changes are made
and hopefully this movie, right they Yeah, And the first
(27:31):
time it's just was just Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah, it's
just so dumb because all like all eleven dudes, like
nine of them are so criminally underwritten that literally any
of them could be women because they're not even written
as like toxic male character. They're just written as like
nothing right there. It would be so easy to have
(27:54):
And I'm kind of surprised that by two thousand one
they weren't doing like a wink wink. Even this is
like set in the bar Sola, but like you can't
even tokenize the woman in this part of Like there
were so many opportunities where it was like, oh, this
would be if there were one woman on the team
where she would prove her competence and all the guys
would be like, WHOA love that scene and that well
(28:17):
that sort of happens in Ocean's twelve. I haven't I
didn't watch Ocean's thirteen, so I can't totally remember who
the extra person is. And yeah, so Tessa's character is
introduced as one of the twelve in the sequel. That
movie is I would say, even worse than this one,
because even I think that's two four see and that
(28:39):
to me, I would like to applaud Steven Soderbergh because
he said, you know what, just wait three years and
I get you guys frustration and you guys anger of
your lack of representation, but like progress does take time,
and to get Julia robertson there three years later, I mean,
that's pretty impresive, stunning turnaround. Well, there's even a couple
more female characters that one, because Catherine data Jones is introduced.
(29:02):
We meet someone's mom eventually, but so tests becomes one
of the twelve, one of the people pulling off the heist.
But her skill, the thing that she contributes to the heist,
like the only thing that she has to offer is
her physical resemblance to another woman. So it's not as
though she has like this great skill like, you know,
because everyone like don cheatles good at um like explosives.
(29:25):
There's a surveillance guy, there's Yen who does like all
the like fitting into tight spaces, which isn't that glamorous
of the job. True, it seems very claustrophobic. Um, but
they all have like a distinct specialty. Whereas yeah, TESSAs
just like, oh, you look like another woman, so you're
going to help us out, and also we're going to
(29:45):
make you seem pregnant time. And then the plot of
that movie is basically just one big dick measuring contest.
At least Ocean's eleven has the decency to not even
really mention whom in one time. There's it was interesting
watching um and I don't even know what this indicates
(30:07):
about the movie or at this point in time at all,
but you know, you keep seeing obviously these scenes with
like eleven guys talking to each other, and I was like, Oh,
they're gonna say something sucked up there. It's gonna be gross,
it's gonna be whatever. But they don't. They really just
talk about the heist. That's all they talk about. Women
don't come up in this movie really ever, which is
weird because it's the thrust and the reason they're doing
(30:30):
it is because George Clooney want him wife back. But
the dialogue of the movie largely like, you never know
women existed. That's because we don't. And I don't know
if you guys have ever hung up with ten or
eleven men, but it's something I do every other day.
We don't talk about women in those times. We usually
(30:51):
are talking about heist. You know, different casinos that we
want to hit. Any group of ten and see ten
or eleven men together, they're probably planning a heist or
hoping that a woman who looks like another woman comes by, right,
just just to help out the team, you know Julia
Real Guys Galt and Oceans Well in Oceans eleven. Whenever
(31:15):
they are talking about a woman, that's usually Brad Pitt
confronting George Clooney basically being like, you're not doing this
for tests, are you were? You're just doing this because
you're also a capitalist and you want a bunch of money, right, Basically,
like Brad Pitt sees her as a complication, like she's
poised as this thing that's potentially going to funk up
(31:36):
their plans. And I do agree that one should not
steal from casinos for the purpose of tricking. Julia Roberts
pits point there, but I think there it's like an
interesting like that's made another way that the test character
is like used by the movie and then never developed.
(31:57):
Because it's fine for characters to have specific reasons to
be in the movie, pure you also have to write it,
and they forgot they slipped. But the fact that, like
George Clooney, displaying emotion or attachment to anyone is viewed
as this massive liability for the for the group. Another
thing I wanted to say in regards to Tests is
(32:20):
that at the end, whenever she makes her choice, the
very important choice that the movie presents her with where
she only has two options to pick one man or
a different man and not Oh, maybe I should leave
these men all together and move to somewhere else and
pursue Maybe I'll go and date someone who doesn't have
(32:41):
a silly last name, or maybe I'm going to go
back to school and study art history and open up
my own museum. Anyway, basically, what's going to happen to
the economy in seven years. She's basically made to look
stupid at the end, where whenever she is like, oh
(33:02):
my god, I didn't know what you were doing, Danny,
and he was like, well I did, so it's fine.
So the whole movie she's who are my wife? Again?
When she's on screen, she's like yelling and seems really mean,
and then she makes her choice to go back with Danny,
and then she's like, oh, wow, what a stupid mistake
(33:23):
I made dating Terry Benedict. I should have been with
you all along, Danny. And it's just very frustrating her characters.
I wants to talk about their first their first conversation
together Danny and Tess, because he is looking for her.
She does not want to see him and expresses that
several times in the conversation. This is like another where
(33:46):
there's like a bunch of rom com tropes inside of
this highst movie where the guy shows up, he is
not welcome. That is stated. She says, don't sit down,
go away, Like there there's a bunch of different indicators
that she doesn't because Terry fucking Addict is on the
way a god among men is blazing down the hall,
you know, but like she she doesn't want him to
(34:07):
be there, and him staying there is like, oh what
a you? You little devil? You like it's not made
to seem inappropriate. It's just like George Clooney cluning the
fuck out and it's like, no, but she actually wants
him to stay, which is like implying that subtext and
an underwritten female character happens all the time, and it's
(34:29):
like super damaging and bad for sure. Get out of
their clue, get out. I just wish that Clune with
like two do one match dot Com is around. He's
George Clooney. You can't but listen, okay, you can't. You
can't gather up your boys for just some match dot
Com like person. You know what I'm saying, Like it's
(34:50):
got to be somebody special. I'm just saying he should steal,
absolutely steal from Terry Benedict. But like, but also, I
have an interior life. If and have your match dot
Com profile, and that's a separate thing. Don't involve your
don't don't mix work and and play. Have you ever
had unrequited love before? No, I'm I've only been loved
(35:13):
by who I want all the time my whole life.
I've only had unrequited love in my life. And I
can tell you that there are so many things I've
done that have never resulted in the woman. And uh,
to see this workout was you know, very very continued
in't like not good behavior. No, I didn't say that.
(35:34):
I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I wanted
to be very clear that I'm not telling young men
out there to do anything. Actually, I'm telling most young
men out there don't do anything. Please. Still, bad things
happen when you do things. But I want to be like,
it feels good to see a man win for once,
(35:55):
you know what I mean, like an even better see
eleven men win Jesus. I mean I had to contain
myself while watching this. Yeah, I mean there's a reason,
I know, what look groundbreaking cinema to watch a group
of men win. I mean, there's a reason I like
(36:17):
this movie and I still like this movie. Um yeah,
I mean I was entertained while I was rewatching it. Yeah,
I don't know. It's just the fact that he does
this whole thing to basically prove his masculinity over another man.
He's like, I have to like make sure that my
ex wife, who doesn't love me anymore because she filed
(36:38):
for divorce, I have to prove to her that I'm
more of a man than this new man that she
has chosen for whatever reason, and I'm better than him. So,
I mean, just so much of his behavior is like
not like that when when someone slips her a phone
terrifying behavior and then called and like and and then
(36:59):
the fact that it one of his big romantic gesture
moments is like, I've been secretly taping your new boyfriend,
Terry Benedict. Like, if you apply this to rettal life,
you're like, holy sh it. This is if your ex
comes out of the woodwork to be like, actually, your
new boyfriend is not a good guy. I know because
I've been secretly surveilling him for weeks. And well, then
(37:19):
I would ask you, Jamie and Caitlin, what would you
propose us to do? Would what would you propose? What
would you say that he Danny Ocean should approach Tess
and say, hey, look, I've done really bad things in
the past. I've been a jerk, I've manipulated you, I
lied to you, and I'm sorry I'm not expecting anything
in return for this apology. I'm just saying that, is
(37:40):
that what you're proposing he should do, right, That sounds silly,
That sounds dumb, because I mean, that sounds like a
lot of work. And if she says, if she is
open to the idea of maybe rekindling a thing like
a romance, there probably doesn't need to be a huge
grand gesture. Maybe he just needs to pay attention to
her and cater to her emotional needs. Well, I counter that,
(38:01):
Caitlin by saying, every piece of media I've seen since
I was born tells me otherwise. Then you're right. You
should do what media tells you to do, because it's
always right there, I don't, I mean. And then part
of the reason she didn't want to be with him
is because he went to jail for like stealing, stealing,
and thenlined her right, and then he wins her back
(38:23):
by once again stealing, un lying to her, and then
it's like, but this time nothing, It's exactly. The only
difference is he does not get fully caught, like he
pulls it off. That the only difference. But we all
know that things are only bad when you get caught
and you get. Well, that is true there, but the
(38:44):
the lesson there of like no women want you to
keep doing exactly what you were doing, but just be
the best at doing it. And it's like the terrible
behavior that caused her to you know, he went to
jail and then I don't know if they broke up
forfore he went to jail, or if they broke up
because he went to jail. I don't know if that's
explicitly stated. He says that he received the divorce papers
(39:07):
the last day he was inside, so they were technically
married for a for the most of the time he
was in jail, which I think we're led to believe
is a few years, right, And it sounds like she
wasn't like visiting him, right, but like just setting that
precedent of like do the exact same thing, but as
long as you get away with it, she'll love you.
Like it's Yeah, it's a dangerous message to send it rules. Yes,
(39:32):
I'm in love with Criminals. Does anyone have any other
final thoughts about the movie? Uh, it's weird. There's there's
really just test to talk about. Uh, this movie largely
ignores women and a way that's so blatant. I find
it almost adorable where it's like we've got eleven men
(39:52):
in every scene and women don't exist. Like it's just
very very haisty, hive mind. I think this movie could
have done with more hacking sequences. I would have loved
to see more hallway walks. I would have loved to
see more emotional repression. And I think Alfred Molina would
have been a great Terry Benedict. Oh, sure, see. I
(40:15):
think there should have been more Danny Ocean standing in
front of Trump Plaza. I thought they also should have,
you know, between like Casey Affleck and then like Matt
Damon saying tone deaf stuff all the time. I think
they really could have gotten more problematic men in there. Yeah. Yeah.
And the fact that we get shout out to Trump,
(40:35):
very pro casino, pro gambling movie. I loved that we
were seeing women's legs but never their faces or hear
their voices and not know if it was attached to
a body at all. Just the mystique, the feminine mystique. Really,
I think it's fair to assume, and I'll say it,
(40:55):
Oceans eleven a feminist text, definitely hundred sent. One other
thing I wanted to say, just in regards to Steven Soderberg,
I do think it's interesting that he goes on to
direct movies that are far more progressive and far more
sex positive. He directed Magic Mike. Oh yeah, so it's
(41:16):
Girlfriend Experience and the Yeah yeah. So It's like, it's
interesting and encouraging to see that the same director who
could direct this competent but ignoring basically everything kind of
movie can go on to make better, more conscious and
just like generally those two I like those two movies
way better in general. Um so, uh so that's good.
(41:40):
Is Steven Soarderburg Sex Criminal are winged? Not that I
have heard, But it's also hard to keep track of
them all because there are so many. One last thing
that I wanted to say, this is very important is
that inside of the briefcase that ends up in the
vault in the movie Oceans eleven inside is basically four
mean Heart of the Oceans from Titanic. They're like little
(42:04):
green jewels. And also Danny's last name is Ocean, so
his heart could technically be called of the Heart of
the Ocean. I don't know. This movie just completely swooned.
It's so confusing to me, um, does it pass the
Bechtel tests? Not even close? But okay. So I wanted
(42:27):
to call back to that conversation that Brad Pitt is
having with that character Charmaine, because the closest thing this
movie has two women interacting with each other is Rusty
saying to Charmaine, say hi to your mom for me.
So he's encouraging her to talk to another woman. But
she responds and says, tell her yourself. She'll be on
(42:47):
stage in five minutes. So she's like, I don't want
to talk to another woman. That can't happen in this movie.
You talk to her. I want to see that movie, Like,
that's the movie that is more interesting than the one
I'm wanting. All right, let's write the movie based on
our nipple scale, based on its portrayal of women zero
(43:07):
to five nipples. I mean, gosh, it's confused, zero nipples.
Like the one woman who has any significant screen time,
which is still hardly any, and who has any sort
of bearing on the story is basically just a plot device,
a prize to be one. She's given no character development. Yeah,
(43:30):
She's really just there to serve as motivation for one
of the male characters. And to make him seem more
complex and more sympathetic. So yeah, I have to give
it a zero NIP rating. Even though I do enjoy
this movie, I almost want to say, like not applicable
(43:50):
because women are just not in this movie or mentioned
in this movie, which I don't think we've ever had
a movie quite like this, where usually if we give
something zero poles, it's like it treats women terribly. This
movie doesn't treat women like anything. They don't exist in
this world. For Julia Roberts, who is you know, a
(44:11):
prop I would give this movie five nibbles because I
think that a woman could watch this movie and if
there's a woman out there who's just like, you know,
I'm in this relationship with this person that I'm not
sure I like, or I had this career that I'm
stuck in, that they can know there's a man out
there who's been purposefully keeping her in the dark and
you know, manipulating her and stuff like that, but with
(44:32):
good intention, and that it's all going to work out
in the end. We're all looking for art. Terry Benedict.
I mean, I'm looking for mind, Terry Benedict, and I
hope that he's listening right now. Well, I'll do you
one better and hope that you get a Danny Ocean.
I don't want to Danny Ocean if you've been listening.
But it's not about what. I'm an art gallery, I'm
(44:56):
an art curator, I'm an art I'm in Please marry me.
Uh well, Edgar, thank you so much for being here.
It was my pleasure. Where can we Where can we
find you? On the web? You can find me on
Instagram at awful gram, on Twitter at Edgar Mope. Was
here on the Culture Kings podcast on how self works
(45:18):
and I got this project coming out soon call sad
Boy Edgar. Make sure to check that out and you
can follow us on social media at Bacto Cast. You
can rate and review us on iTunes. You can go
to our website where you can buy our merch and
also sign up for our Matreon and check out Oceans
(45:38):
eight if you want we didn't really talk about. If
you want more more well, speaking of our matren, if
you want more of a take on female reboots and
whether or not they are useful at all, check out
our Ghostbusters episode. The two thousand and sixteen all female
reboot episode of that only on our Matreon for more
(46:00):
discussion on the all female reboot concept we get into
it and otherwise. Jamie, I just want you to know
that I would never steal a hundred and sixty million
dollars from you. Thank you so much. I aspired to
be your Tarry Bennett. I will betray you, all right.
Thanks for listening.
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Caitlin Durante
Jamie Loftus
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