Raw with Vanessa Guerrero

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best
start changing it with the bec del Cast. So, Kitlyn,
we're basically podcast sisters, right, Oh yeah, of course. Okay, So, uh,

(00:23):
I can tell you anything, right, Yeah, that's what podcast
sisters are to each other. Okay, so I have to
tell you that the other night when you give me
that Brazilian I did eat your finger? Are we still cool?
I do remember my finger getting cut off. I know

(00:46):
you like came to and you're like issiating my finger,
and I was like, you're dreaming, but I did do it,
and I just kind of wanted to like check into
your people are feeling about that. I'm glad you felt
comfortable enough divulging that to me. Sisters, right, yeah, yeah,
of course. Now is my turn to tell you that

(01:09):
I didn't eat your finger, but I ate the finger
and the other body parts of a lot of people.
You know what, I actually forgive you because that makes
me feel better about what I did, which is not
comparatively as I think we're good. Our mom probably did it.
I'm assuming it's somewhere in the bloodline. Like I'm not

(01:30):
even worried about it. I love you, Love you too,
Jamie Enjoyed Jail. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast, Jamie Lawfus.
My name is Caitlin Durante and this is our show
in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens.
Using the Bechtel test simply is a jumping off point,

(01:52):
that being, of course, a media metric created by queer
cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires,
for our purposes, two people of any marginalized gender with
names have to speak to each other about something other
than a man. Ideally that conversation is meaningful to the

(02:16):
narrative right, which you would think would be hard to do.
For many movies, it is hard to do, but guess what, Baby,
Today we're covering a movie where it is not hard
to do, because there is so much to talk about
in this movie between characters who are not men, and
they're doing all manner of fucked up, funked up stuff.

(02:38):
I am so excited to be where first of all,
I wanted to just give us kind of a little
ribbon and say. The movie today is from Frost. It
is a Lesma to movie. So I felt like a
genius watching this movie because we are socially conditioned to

(02:59):
think that French equals sophisticated. I felt very chic today
as I was preparing for this episode, and I could
not be more excited to talk about the movie. It
is tens Raw, directed by Julia Ducorno, and we have
an incredible returning guest who brought this movie to us,

(03:24):
and I could not be more grateful. Yes, she is
a host of Kicking and Screaming podcast. She will soon
be on Behind the Monsters on Shutter and do you
remember her from our episodes on Maide in Manhattan and
Atomic Blonde. It's Vanessa Guerrero. Yeah, wellcome back, welcome back.

(03:45):
Thank you for freaking us this movie. Thank you for
watching this movie. Because pitching to people a movie that
is like minutes of Cannibalism, is it the easiest thing
to do in the world. And the fact that we're
all this hype to talk about it, I am thrilled,
so excited. I also would argue that when a woman

(04:10):
eats another woman's finger, that does pass the Bechdel test.
That's true. I mean that is an intimate communication of
the mind and body. I mean it's kind of transcends
the Bechtel cast in many ways. Yeah, that's true. Yeah,
So let's talk. Let's get get into it. It's a
it's a pretty recent movie, came out five years ago. Vanessa.

(04:34):
What is your connection to this movie? How did it
come into your life? Um? So the way, I have
a lot of fondness for this movie because it also
kind of started with like my relationship and my husband
who I'm married to now. So it's one of like
the weirder First Few Days movies. But basically when we
had met, I was working on an article about sex

(04:57):
and horror and how for some people kind of an
entryway into like safely figuring out for themselves like something
off kilter that they might be into. And at the
time we met as friends, and he came over and
recommended a movie called um Southbound, and it's an anthology series,
but one of it includes like a medical horror moment

(05:20):
um and it has a lot of like specifically, it's
like a lot of like sound and sensation. And I
proceeded to get too breathy on a couch next to
a man that I just brought into my house for
the first time that we were definitely not dating, like
embarrassingly breathy about it, literally blushing talking about it now,

(05:41):
and uh, he was super chill about it. It was
just like, that's weird. I just learned something that I
like right there. And immediately he was like, have you
seen the movie Raw, because he's basically like knocking on
people's doors, being like, this is my Lord and xavior
Julia Dick right now, and he's like, this is so
like perfect for the piece that you're working on. And

(06:02):
so he'd been waiting for her to watch it with me,
and we finally watched it together, and then the entire
time I kept looking at him and I was like,
this is the closest thing that has ever felt both
terrifying and right to like my experiences with sexual awakening,
especially like growing up in a very repressed household in
school system, so like this became so valuable. Like the

(06:26):
last time I felt like this watching a movie was
American Psycho, when I was like, Oh, this is what
it looks like when a woman does something terrifying. This
is what it looks like when a woman like examines
something like this and like this where the intimacies changed
based on who's behind the camera. The last time I
felt that way was like seeing Mary har And do something.
And now I'm just like all about whatever Julia Dickerno does.

(06:48):
She could she could just do like a weird TikTok accidentally,
and I'm like perfect art cinema. Yeah, we were talking
about the new movie of hers that is either already
has come out depending on when this episode drops or
is about to come out. It's like the releases like
right around this time. Uh, we're not sure of the pronunciation.

(07:08):
It could be. We kept saying type tannic pane. Yeah,
we're not exactly sure, but it is her new movie
and it looks pretty cool. It really does. Yeah, yeah,
this this movie is I just I'm so thrilled about it.

(07:30):
I had never I had heard of this movie. I
had heard of Julia Ducornet, and it was just like
not something that I and this is I feel like,
especially in the past year or so, this has been
like changing pretty rapidly. But I never thought of myself
as a horror fan or someone who is naturally drawn
to horror. But seeing a movie like this. It is

(07:52):
absolutely a horror movie, but it's also like a coming
of age movie, which is very much something that give
almost any coming of age movie a fair shot. And
I was pleasantly taken off guard by how much I
loved this movie from almost every alex. I'm just I'm

(08:12):
so excited to talk about it. I'm so glad that
it exists, and I'm so glad that directors like Julia
Ducarno are working at such a high level. I wish
that like this had I was happy that. I mean,
this movie is pretty accessible, like you can watch it
for free a number of places to be I believe
is one of the ones. Yeah, yeah, I was. I
for one was a to be head for this. I

(08:34):
watched five tied commercials in a row and then continue
to watch raw whatever by any means, but I hope
that this, as time goes on, becomes like a horror
classic that is like not out of left field to
say that you've seen because I just thought it was wonderful.
Thank you Vanessa for bringing it. I truly can't thank

(08:56):
you enough. It's so good. I also love that you
specifically brought like coming of age because horror is such
a perfect vehicle for that, Like you've seen it used
with both like um, I mean as literal as like
werewolf stuff where it's like suddenly I'm getting hair everywhere
and it's awkward to like more horrifying, visceral things. And
I feel like we have this collective amnesia about how

(09:18):
awful and gross and terrifying but also exhilarating puberty was,
and oftentimes when we like examine it, it's usually with
like a ukulele and like butterfly knesses, and it's it's
something that kind of takes away this like feral nature
that we all kind of adopt as we're learning all
of the weird things our bodies do and how we

(09:39):
want to interact with other people. And I feel like
there truly should be more horror coming of age things,
because I cannot tell you how many times I'd like
pull down my pants or look in the mirror and
be like what is as a teenager? And it's the
scariest thing I've ever seen. My life was a horror

(10:00):
movie once a month when I got my period, because
I've never been in more pain than every time I
get my period. Yeah, So I grew up. I didn't
get sex said in school, and so I thought I
was shipping myself for a while because it feels like

(10:21):
you do because your internal organs are just like flexing
and unflexing. If you pull down your pants and it's brown.
I just felt like it was a reasonable I'm like,
that's so bizarre because I don't remember shipping myself, but
I guess that that's just what's been happening. They don't
prepare us for clots, No, they don't at all prepare
you for blood clots or the fact that some days

(10:42):
you might just have a jellyfish in your panties. Like
they were like, it's just like a little bit of
blood every month, and we are all wholly unprepared for
the first time it gets nearly. And also it's like,
if you don't have someone on the ground to let
you know what's going on, all you see on TV
is it's blue. It's not even the color is done

(11:02):
weird blue stuff onto pads, and it's like, in what
world is this helpful? This kool aid jammer fell into
your panties? What do you do? Like cool? Not to
pull out the kool Aid jammer reference, but that was
at thirteen, I knew more about kool Aid Jammer than
I did about my own body. Um good grief. Um.

(11:28):
I had seen this movie before a couple of years ago.
I remember it. It has gotten kind of more and
more buzz since it came out, so I wanted to
say I saw it in like en ish. I was
surprised by how much I remember it, because usually if
I see a movie once and then a few years passed,
it's I might as well have never seen the movie

(11:50):
because I simply remember nothing. But as I was rewatching
it for this episode, I was like, oh, yeah, and
I remember that, and I remember that I remember, was
like so much had made an impression. I was like,
oh cool, there's a lot of perspectives you don't see
enough of so that when you do see it, it's
just in your brain forever. Yeah, it really like leaves
a lasting impression. So yeah, I was excited to rewatch

(12:13):
it for this and yeah, we've got a lot to
talk about. By that same token, though, I Jamie, we
were talking about this where we're like, I like kind
of don't. I didn't write down any notes for this
because I'm just like, yeah, it was good. It was
handled well, end of note, and it really is. It's
like I feel like it's rare to find a movie

(12:34):
that so like sucks you in. Yeah. That I found
it hard to like pause to take note because I
was like, I don't really want I really want to.
I'm having too much fun. It's very fluid. There aren't
really any moments that like slow down or like maybe
that the pacing is like, oh here, I can like
look at my phone for a second. Because I think

(12:55):
this is just like another benefit of having a woman
behind the camera. The main character has always looked at
with like curiosity instead of like judgment or like what
is this small delicate creature? Uh, to where it feels
like a very intense nature documentary about a person. Yeah, yeah,
Oh my gosh. I felt like there was a lot

(13:18):
of camera choices that were so I mean, we're so
like every time you see Justine, she's hunched over and
if she's like she looks like she's the subject of
a nature documentary. The entire movie. It's. Yeah, the first
time you see like Alexis in the intro and she
like runs into the street and you know, causes the
car accident. She sprints like a dog or an animal

(13:41):
that's like running into traffic. She's like on all fours
and it's so deliberate, Like it feels like the way
an animal hunts for something and you see her from
far away, and it does have that like far enough
removed thing to where by stripping all of these characters
of humanity and treating them like animals, it just makes
it feel all the more human it was. Yeah, this

(14:05):
movie in particular just feels like you can just feel
that it is like women perceiving other women. Yes, like
in a way that it doesn't feel like it's bopping
you over the head with a mallet, but it just
like intuitively feels that way. Like if I saw this
movie knew nothing about it would be like this movie
had to have been made by someone who intuitively understood

(14:29):
Justine's experience and like where she would be coming from,
because I don't know, like you can just feel it.
I had that thought when I watched the peeing standing
up scene. Yeah, oh my gosh, because I knew never
in a million years would a dude ever include something
like that. And that's like a very specific kind of
camaraderie that would be considered gross that like men would
be like that's too gross, and they don't really understand

(14:53):
how down to be disgusting. We are like quote unquote disgusting,
but like I also like deeply like as somebody that
like has a vagina wanted to learn how to pee
standing up so bad when because I was like, it's cool,
like anyone of the penis can just like run off
and then like piss in the bushes and then come
back and keep playing. I want to pee standing up.

(15:15):
So like when I saw that scene, it felt so
close to like similar experiences of like other girls being
like you want to see what this does? That it
like I was like, I've never seen anything like this
that scene. What I really enjoyed that scene, and I
thought that the way that it was shot was perfect.
It's like I don't know, I mean, and for a

(15:36):
movie that is about cannibal ism, it feels bizarre to
be like, oh, you know, it didn't feel exploitatively shot
at all, but it really didn't like it was. It
felt like you got what you needed there, which is
the sisterhood at and also just like how many people
are you going to be that comfortable enough around to

(15:57):
be like, let's peace standing up even though it's going
to be messy. I don't know. I every time I
pee it sounds like a helicopter is landing and it's
like all over the place. But I certainly did try
at different points in my life. I never realized how
powerful my stream is until I pee outside, Like I'm
so used to hearing it in the bowl, and then

(16:17):
the first time it hits dirt, I'm like, I'm doing that.
If you're just like, wow, I'm so let's bring that
strength to other areas of my body and life. We're
going to get those muscles everywhere, because my god, that's forceful.
I'm just like, this could knock someone out. But I
don't know who knows. Wow. Anyways, when we're talking about

(16:41):
that's so excited about talking about peeing outside forceful peas, Yeah,
I love a good forceful pe Uh. Let me let
me just not on the recap mp in take a
little bite out of the recap. Shall we look at her? Go? Um? So,
the movie starts on an open road where we see

(17:05):
a woman running into the road and seems to be
deliberately causing a car to crash into a tree, and
then we see her approach the crash, and then it
cuts to a young woman, Justine. She's dining with her parents.
We learned that they are all strict vegetarians. Then they

(17:26):
drop her off at her first day of veterinary school,
and the first night there, she and the other like
freshman students get hazed by the upperclassmen and they're brought
to this big party. There she meets her roommate Adrian.
Adrian Audrian, I don't know the French France there, I was.

(17:51):
I It made me laugh a little bit, and we
talked about we we recorded an episode earlier today about
Revenge of the Nerds, so there's been this like related
but deeply unrelated through line of hazing to what we've
been talking about all day. But I just thought it
was so like, not unbelievable, because it's like I certainly
haven't been to veterinary school, but I was like, wow,

(18:14):
is hazing that intense among vets? Fuck? Yeah, it seems intense.
Where I was just like, I don't know anything about
the world, so I'm just going to have to believe you.
I guess I know. I was looking for I literally
I was seeking out vet insight because I was just like,
is it that intense. They're like, are you Are you

(18:34):
all okay? Should I bring my cocker spaniel to the
likes of you if you're dumping blood on each other? Like,
we don't know? Yeah, hard to say, Yeah, I could
not speak from experience, believe it or not. Wait, Caitlin,
are you not a betted yourself to me? I did
not go to a French veterinary school. This is the

(18:56):
foremost French veterinary feminist podcast. So that's interesting. I don't
have a master's degree in veterinary study then from France
University where you can only work on French horses and
French dogs. Yes, very very they're they're wearing hats. It's nice. Um, okay.

(19:17):
So Justine's older sister, Alex also goes to this school.
She's an upper classman or an upper class woman. I
did write that in my recap, by the way, in
case anyone was curious. That was brave of you to
say thank you. They catch up with each other if
we find out that their parents also went to this

(19:38):
vet school. They kind of don't totally see eye to
eye on things, but they're excited to see each other.
And then Justine starts classes the hazing continues throughout the week.
They all have to eat a raw rabbit kidney as
part of their hazing. Are the vets of the world

(20:00):
doing this like, it's not It didn't bump me at all.
I was. I'm just genuinely curious if there's hazing in
veterinary school. Vet's sound off in the comments. I didn't
go to college, so that's what I'm assuming all colleges
like I went to loser college, and so I don't
know anyway. So she's presented with having to eat this

(20:22):
raw rabbit kidney, and Justine is like, I can't eat that.
I'm a vegetarian. But her sister is like, no, just
eat it, be cool, So Justine does. Uh. Then she
seems to have a reaction to having eaten the rabbit kidney.
She develops a severe rash all over her body. She
goes to see a doctor about it, who tells her

(20:45):
it's probably food poisoning and that she should fast for
a day. But Justine's like, well, except I'm very hungry.
And then we see her steal a burger patty from
the dining hall and we're like, wait a minute, is
isn't she a vegetarian, what's going on? And then her
roommate Adrian takes Justine off campus to like eat her

(21:07):
first meat meal. On the way, they see the scene
of that car accident from the beginning of the movie.
They passed that, and then they get their food, and
justin gas station food representation, I feel like there's not
enough gas station food in movies for how prevalent it
is in the real world. I mean, as a frequenter

(21:31):
of both sheets and Wahwas in my days in Pennsylvania,
Wow Mayra vastown over here at the Wahwa. I grew
up in mostly sheets territory, so I've been to many
more sheets than Wahwas. But Vanessa, what was your what
was your go to gas station food? Growing up? Man,

(21:55):
I didn't really experience like full on gas like actual
like meal meals that weren't chip bags until I was
like an adult in Los Angeles. But many of the
ones by my high school would do like literally open
any chip and you can just dump it under the
chili and cheese, and so those with hot cheetos and

(22:17):
pickled Hallo pengos and then a bunch of Chilian cheese,
and then I would just eat it with chop sticks,
and now I wonder why I have ulcers all the time. Oh,
I'm sure this is completely unrelated. No, that's completely unrelated.
It has to be. But it was like the popular
like get that and then walk home from school. And
then because we also like went to a private school,
we were like dying to eat garbage by the time

(22:39):
school got out. So then we were just like double
down on those. Hell yeah, Jamie, what's your go to
meal or experience? It's improved over time, but in uh,
at least in I don't even know if it's all
of New England, but there's Cumberland Farms is the gas
station of note and you go to Compies, you get
a slushy, you get they have really good hot dogs,

(23:02):
which is like part part of my early adoption to
hot dogs was Cumbies hot dogs. They actually kept them
sort of hot, which felt very chic and novel because
they did cost seventy nine cents. So I love Cumbies
food to this day. I was getting like a lot
of like they because I feel like the gas stations

(23:23):
in the last ten years have been trying to like
make their food at least appear more healthy. Because now
when I go to combies, when I visit home, they're like,
would you like a grilled chicken wrap? I was like,
there's no way, there's no way. But it's like hot
dog as like, I don't come here for the grilled
chicken wrap, but I appreciate a for effort. Anyways, anyway,

(23:46):
gas station hot dogs and same thing. So she we
see her hungrily eat a bunch of meat, and then
later back at her dorm, we see her eat some
raw chicken. We're like, Wow, something's really happening to Justine.
And then she coughs up a bunch of her own
hair that she chewed on, which was gross. Got that scene.

(24:09):
I loved the audio mixing on that scene had me
skin crawling the entire time. Yeah, there's a I got
really into this. Not into but I read a book
about It's. I guess it's a type of like ulcer
tumor like thing I'm not a doctor, called a teratoma
that can form inside of people. I read a memoir

(24:31):
of someone who had something like this that her body
just started acting ways that she didn't recognize, and it's
just this kind of like it sounds like a horror movie.
It is a combination of like hair and half grown
teeth and just like my aunt had one of those. Yes, yeah,
like and it's like it's filled the teeth. Yeah, it's
a hairball full of teeth that grows inside of people.

(24:55):
And it's like it is I don't know, it's very
it's very visually fast and he but it also was
like so under discussed that when it happens to someone,
they're like, this doesn't sound real, Like how was what? Yeah,
it reminded me of that Tara Toomas. If you want
to fun google rabbit hole, Wow is your Did it
work out okay for your aunt? And it got removed

(25:17):
and everything? Yeah, she got that one removed. And then
I was just like obsessed with Tara Toomas. I didn't
know that's what it, but like the idea of like
hair and stuff like that growing and like that's seen
especially yes nails. And then I had a hat a
pe teacher where she grew an extra road teeth in
her mouth. She said that that I can't remember. She
said that her doctor said it was like she had

(25:37):
like a pregnancy or something and like the extra hormones
went a little crazy before like she like lost the
baby without realizing that she did, because she wasn't even
trying to get pregnant, and so she just like had
a quick influx of hormones and then she just woke
up one day and found like three little teeth coming
out of like the bottom of her mouth, like behind
her bottom jaw. And the second I heard that, I

(25:59):
like checked my mouth in the mirror every day and
I was just like, do I have teeth now? And
like do you never really think about how much body
horror happens just because of hormones? Right? Like It's just
I love body horror so much and it's there couldn't
be more grounds for it to exist, Like it is

(26:20):
such a real thing. It's wow. Yeah, my birth control
makes my mouth bleed spontaneously. Oh, I love that. I
didn't know that it was a thing until one day
I just tasted copper and they're like, yeah, some people
protest their own. Birth control just makes their mouth, their
gums just start bleeding bleeding. My birth control made my
libido go away for like five years. That was that

(26:43):
was body horror. That is I've ever heard it. Bodies
are horrible and that is where rock comes in. Oh,
does it want to tell you that, right, And I'm
just pulling a hairball like it's a shower in your throat. God. Yeah,
everyone listening, google Taratoma if you want to have some

(27:04):
wild dreams for the next two to three months. Pass hard,
pass for me. Um. Okay. So, then Justine hangs out
with her sister Alex. They bond a bit. This is
when we get I think the peeing standing up scene.
Alex also gives Justine a bikini wax, which goes wrong.
Scissors have to be involved, and then there's a mishap

(27:25):
with the scissors which leads to one of Alex's fingers
getting cut off. Alex passes out, and as Justine waits
for the paramedics to arrive, she starts to lick the
blood off of the severed finger and then whips it daisy.
She eats the finger. Also, the music that's happening in

(27:47):
this scene is mesmerizing. Yeah. Yeah, the score for this
movie is so good. Yeah. There's an actual sex scene later,
and it's not played the same like it was. It
was weirdly sensual the way she like shot the eating
of the finger more than like actual sex scenes later

(28:08):
to where it was like This is the awakening moment.
This is the moment like in most movies where a
girl was like I feel tingles, and now it's this,
except she's eating a finger. That feeling when you eat
a finger for the first time. You know who can
relate that? Yeah, that whole scene, The way that that
scene is executed on every level was like in the

(28:30):
hands of someone less competent would have been So I mean,
I guess it still is can't be in a way,
but it doesn't feel like you're so like you know
that she's probably going to eat the finger, but it
still feels so shocking when she does it because the
actress is doing such an incredible job. That direction is
so good. The reaction when the sister wakes up is

(28:52):
so fucked like it's just so good. The score like, yeah,
I was literally like pulling my sheets the entire time
because I knew it was going to happen. But like,
she very much does the thing where it's like taking
the little bites and like the little tastes before and
you're like, I know she's gonna fucking do it, but

(29:13):
the tension, I know, it's so good, it's so good.
So yeah, then then Alex wakes up and sees Justine
eating her finger and gives her this like, what the
funk are you doing? Look? And then we cat to
the hospital. The parents have shown up, Alex's taken care of,
and then she blames her missing finger on their dog Quickie,

(29:34):
having eaten it, even though she knows it was Justine.
Because Alex has a secret of her own. I know.
At first, I was like, Alex, you're just gonna kill
a dog over this, that's me, But then but she
has her reasons. It's because she's protecting this family secret
where she has also developed a taste for human flesh.

(29:58):
It turns out she was the woman at the beginning
of the movie who had caused that car crash, because
she does this again and brings Justine with her, and
she she causes another car to crash and then kind
of goes over to eat the people. But Justine's like, no,
that this is not what I want for myself and

(30:19):
she storms off um. But then she notices how hungry
and or horny, but mostly hungry she is for her
roommate Adrian, and later at a party she's making out
with this guy, she bites part of his lip off,
he freaks out about it, and then she hooks up

(30:40):
with Adrian and the whole time she's trying to bite
at him and eat him, and he's like stop that.
So then she bites her own arm and draws blood
by gnawing on her own arm. Then Justine goes to
this party and she gets really dry sunk, and she

(31:02):
kind of again like surprise kisses, slash bites, surprise bites
a few people, and then Alex finds her and takes
her out of the situation. And then the next day
at class, everyone's looking at Justine all weird, and it
turns out the night before someone had taken a video
of Alex kind of taunting a very drunk Justine with

(31:23):
a cadaver. That's one way to describe that video that
that video is so dark and again so well composed
because it's so fucked up to watch, because Alex is
basically like, here, eat it, eat the dead body, and Justine,
who was like kind of too drunk to really do anything,

(31:44):
is still like trying to like lunge at it and
bite it and like eat it, but she's like just
way too drunk to do anything. But there's a whole
crowd of people watching this, and now everyone thinks that
Justine is a is a week, so she confronts Alex
about having done this to her, and they get in

(32:08):
this big fight on campus. They're biting at each other,
Alex bite a chunk out of Justine's face, but eventually
they stopped fighting and then they kind of make up
and Alex tends to Justine's face bite, and then the
next morning, Justine wakes up in bed with Adrian, who
turns out to be dead a huge chunk of his

(32:29):
leg has been eaten. That reveal was also so devastating.
You've really you can guess that Adrian's probably fucked, but
I was still I was still folding out hope for him. Yeah,
it's really gross to look at, really gross. And it
turns out he's been He was spiked in the abdomen

(32:50):
by a ski pool and then eaten, and Justine at
first thinks that she did it, but apparently it was
Alex who had stabbed him and eaten him, and then
Alex goes to prison for murder. Then we cut to
Justine visiting her parents, and her dad reveals that what
happened isn't her fault. Nor was it Alex's fault. Their

(33:15):
hunger for human flesh is something their mother passed down
to them, because he opens his shirt and reveals a
bunch of scarring from when their mother had eaten chunks
out of him, and he's like, don't worry, Justine, I'm
sure you'll find a solution to your cannibal problem. The

(33:39):
end cut to title amazing ending because the dad's literally
just sitting there like kind of calm, looking like, Yeah,
I love your mother, so she could just take hunks
out of me whenever she wants, I guess. So let's
take a quick break and then we'll come right back
to discuss. And we're back. So is this like a

(34:07):
reverse Twilight situation? What's going on here? I was truly
shocked at the reveal at the end that again, the
first time I watched it, I did not see like
so stark a reveal made and realizing how much it
had been like seated in the beginning with their like

(34:30):
interpersonal family relationships and you just kind of like view
it as like, I don't know their parents that are
kind of intense, I guess, And it tracks the entire time,
but like side swipes you to where it's just like, oh,
we all have to do this. She did it, I
did it. We just have to do this in order

(34:51):
to become like a fully formed adult, we have to
go through this period. It makes me wonder like, would
they have ever developed this hunger for human flesh had
they not eaten the rabbit kidney? In which case, why
do their parents insist on sending their daughters to this
place where they know they'll eat this and then like
that's like a hazing technique, yeah, and then they will

(35:13):
develop these cannibalistic tendencies. I did have some questions walking
away from the movie, but I do feel like I
mean something that I because when when this movie ended,
I was like, Okay, this is the kind of movie
where like you have to just like go to the
source and figure out. Okay, what was the writer director

(35:34):
thinking when she made this? What has she publicly said
this movie is about. I'm just I was so curious
about her perspective on it. And I know that all
of us have have spent some time. I mean, I
think I've probably spent the least out of everybody. But
but I as I was watching interviews with her about
this movie, I really appreciated and thought it was very

(35:55):
fucking cool how she would engage with questions like that
to an extent but would not give the yes or
no answers that she was being asked. And as that
kind of pertains to gender, it like challenged some stuff
that I had gone into these interviews kind of assuming
that she was trying to say. And I felt very

(36:18):
challenged by Julia Ducarnov of how she responded to those
questions because I don't know, I felt a little silly
by the end where she was asked, you know, like
is this a women's horror movie essentially? And which is
like if you flipped that question for almost any profession,
it's uh, pretty insulting. And I was just like, oh, yeah,

(36:39):
how many times have any of us been asked like, so,
what is it like to be a woman comedy? And
you're like, well, that's a shitty I object to the
premise of the question, and I realized that I was
sort of asking myself that question as a viewer of
a horror movie, and she was sort of like, well,
I don't you know, I don't really want to say
either way. I don't think that will ask this question

(37:00):
two men. I think that, you know, the protagonists of
this movie could be a man potentially, and the movie
could play out the same way. But this is the
movie I wrote, so interpreted as you will, and I
don't know. I just thought her attitude towards I think
the very and current questions that are asked of filmmakers

(37:22):
who are not white guys was very like punk rock
and cool. I loved it. Yeah, It's something I love too, because,
like I feel like in horror, especially when like marginalized
people do manage to obtain the funding that they want
to make something. Oftentimes, if you're like if you're a woman,
or you're queer, or your trans or your POC, you're

(37:43):
kind of expected to like sell your tragedy once you
get the foot in the door, and you can't just
tell a story to where it's just like I'm going
to tell a horror story. But it's like, because horror
is such a good vehicle for empathy, it's gonna be
like I want you to like see what my experience is.
But half the time that isn't even the stories they're
trying to sell. It's the stories that they're being asked
to sell. And because if you go back to the

(38:06):
eighties and nineties. In the early two thousand's, you have
these examples of like I've brought her up before, but
Mary Hearn working on an American psycho, Or you have
pet cemetery, you have like slumber party massacre, or where
they're like just directed by women that want to tell stories.
And there's almost this like sinister turn by like men

(38:30):
in horror that hold the keys to the money towards like, oh,
I'm implying that I want to like encourage more voices,
but it's only a certain kind and like I want
you to reaffirm that I'm a great human, and I'm like,
I'm giving you these the money, but it's only to
be like, look, how great of a human I am.
I'm letting women tell their stories, but it's only like

(38:50):
the stories I want them to tell, but only if
they're talking about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. Yeah, Yeah,
I totally agree with you. And that's something that I
feel like I've I've been trying to like check and
challenge and myself as a viewer to where it's like, yeah,
is wouldn't it just be the actual equal approach would
be like here's money to make the movie you want

(39:12):
to make. Exactly. It doesn't need to be a one
to one analogy for something you have lived through, Like
that is such an absurd qualifier. If that were true,
sci fi wouldn't exist, like just most horror movies wouldn't exist.
And yeah, I don't know, Julia, do Karna put me
in my place and if I loved every second of it,

(39:34):
it was great. She also speaks to how she's not
like I'm a female director making female movie. She's like,
I'm a filmmaker making movies that could speak to any
audience member. And she's like, I don't want to genderize
my audience or my movie. And then she kind of

(39:54):
equates people's tendency to like put female directors into boxes
like that and like, oh, well, you're a woman and
you're making movies for women, and only women are going
to connect to this because woman's can only like women things,
and she like equates it to like how ridiculous it
is for like razors marketed to women have to be

(40:16):
pink and have to like cost more, and like pens
that are marketed to women that are pink, and like
she's like, no, like I'm not. I'm just making a
movie that happens to focus on a woman and be
about that young woman's experience. But it's a movie that
literally any audience member could see and see humanity in

(40:39):
and be compelled by in some way. Yeah, And like
I noticed a lot of the criticism for raw usually
for men. Um We're critiques that I see only when
it's a woman directing, because I see men do the
same thing and they're usually praised for it. There's a
lot where it's like I felt like hyper stylized for
no reason. It felt like, you know, very like colorful

(41:02):
and poppy for no reason. And that's like something that
you hear them say to like Sofia Coppola, or it's
like why is it so fim? Because it's pretty? And
I love self indulgence in filmmakers. I love it when
you give me something that might be like a little
bit unaccessible or like, you know, very flashy for the
sake of flashy, because you get to you're behind the helm.
But when it's like David Lynch making something an eternity long,

(41:25):
or like gas bar Noa making something that looks the
same fucking way their geniuses but for women, it's like
too stylish. Yeah, right, And then also people were saying like, oh,
it's so nice to have a woman director brought to
this genre because it adds like a softness to the industry,

(41:46):
And she was like, what are you talking about? Have
you even seen my movie? Like this movie soft toilet
paper is soft. I'm not soft. This is a direct
quote from her, which is amazing. That's an amazing one,
like T shirt, She's so good. I love her. Yeah,
I really appreciated how like and and also this is

(42:08):
like an unfair thing, like if she were a male director,
this would not be a problem that she would be having,
Like there wouldn't be this level of loaded question lodged
to her every which way about what she's making. And
so yeah, I mean I hate that she has to
do it, but she navigates these questions and issues. I thought, like,

(42:28):
so in a way that made me want to be better.
Like she's she's just awesome. She's intimidatingly French. Yes, she's so.
I was like, even though I know, like I don't
think I actually saw an interview where she was smoking
a cigarette, but I felt like spiritually she was smoking
a cigarette every time I saw her like long drags

(42:49):
and like, yeah, there's so many points in this movie
in which oftentimes I call something ugly and people think
it's a negative, but like I love a lot of
ugly things. Like my favor show as a kid was
Couraged with The Cowardly Dog because all of the characters
were like pretty ugly in Michieven looking such a massive
fan of it, So like anything that's kind of ugly,

(43:09):
and I feel like puberty tends to, like we brought
it up earlier, have such a lens to it that
when she shows those ugly moments, I have more of
a wistful romance for my childhood than if I had
watched something like The sand Lot to where I remember
the last time I was free enough and felt safe

(43:32):
enough to explore these things. Because there's a specific scene
that felt like a literal one to one of a
childhood experience I had, and I know it wasn't on purpose,
It was just a very fun coincidence. Um it's that
scene where she's like covered in blue paint and the
guy that she's making out with his covered in yellow
paint and they're essentially doing like the seven minutes in
heaven and they're like, don't come out until you're green,

(43:53):
and the guy runs out screaming. So because I had
like a very religious upbringing, I did everything very differently.
And it was also like measured with like excitement for
the new, but also like this weird sense of like
guilt and morning for like what I deemed the quote
unquote innocent parts of me, because again I was like
reckoning with that. And I remembered there was a class

(44:16):
in Bible class where we came in and there was
three lumps of plato on the desk, and he started
the class by saying, like, you know, you're getting older
and you're getting urges and even if you're like not
acting on them when you have a partner, and he
like mushed the two platos together and it was like
purple and yellow. He was like, you like mix your

(44:37):
colors in each other, but when you separate, you leave
little bits of color in each other, and then eventually
you start to lose your original color as you end
up with your person. And so it was like, let's say,
like you like end up with blue and then you've
got all these bits in you and like a lot
of the kids in class because like galaxy, it's galaxy

(45:00):
brain charifying projection. It's massive shame projection. And like a
lot of the I was mostly there because my parents
had no idea what the school's deal was. They were
just like, it's a private school, and we're from a
developing nation, so it feels like it's a good deal.
And a lot of them were kids whose like parents,
very much like believed that kind of thing, and so
they were very much like, yes, of course. And I

(45:21):
got this terrifying, like intrusive thought the entire time where
I was like, I want to be a rainbow. I
want all the colors. I want to mix with all
the colors, but I shouldn't because that's bad. And the
next weekend, I was at a pool party and I
noticed that there was this new kid in school that
was staring at my chest. But I liked it, and
we were alone in the pool later because everyone went inside,

(45:43):
and he was like, can I like touch him? And
I was like sure, and then he was like can
we make out and maybe I can see him? And
I was like, you know what, I'm good And then
I left because I had gotten exactly what I wanted
because I was like I just want to see what
this is like and if that's cool, then I'm done.

(46:03):
And he was utterly flabbergasted. And then in my mind,
I just went on this mission where it's like I'm
going to get the experience that I want and if
I don't want it, and then I'm fucking walking away.
And it was just the rest of high school, the
amount of stuff that I did because I was curious.
Before I actually had a first kiss, I like never
I was talking to my husband about it, but I

(46:23):
was like, I had most things that you would like
try much later before I even let someone kiss me
on the mouth, because I was just curious and like
I saw that there. Yeah, yeah, I feel like this
movie speaks to a lot of that, just like coming
of age curiosity, and that's what I like really, and

(46:46):
especially like after hearing the director speak about it, it
was like, oh, yeah, this is a very skillfully told,
like body horror coming of age movie that yes, there
is a woman at the center of but like there's
no mission statement related to the gender of the protagonist.
It just like I don't know, like I just thought

(47:07):
it was so because it it felt like at its core.
The more I watched it, and the where I was
sitting with it, it was like, whatever, this is a
character who is going back and forth with a very
eighteen year old problem, which is like who is the
image that I have constructed of myself? And who am
I becoming? And like where am I? Like what directions

(47:29):
am I being pulled in? And what compromises am I
willing to make as I become an adult? And like
what am I actually very naive about that I'm afraid
to admit And how does that relate to my family
and how I grew up? And just all this ship
that is very universal and to see that I've it
made me just I don't know, like think about how

(47:52):
rarely we see a very universal message channeled through a
woman as a protagonist, which I feel like might be
some of the cognitive dissonance I was experiencing of like, well,
surely she must be trying to say something about woman
and when what what happened to women? When women become women?
But it's like, no, it's a very human experience. But

(48:13):
I feel like we're conditioned to see these very human
relatable heroes or I mean whatever, just need it's not
a hero necessarily, but the person at the center of
the story as usually men, and we're kind of expected
to meet them where they're at with their experience, and
the opposite is kind of rarely asked of people. But

(48:35):
it's it's it's easy to do with this movie. Yeah,
it's it's one of those things where it's so much
better to aim for specificity than trying to please everyone
and automatically like be for everyone for the sake of
being for everyone, instead of like telling us specific as
of a story as you want. I for how much
I disagree with like many, many, many reviews, all of
his horror reviews and his thoughts on The Lake House,

(48:58):
which were mostly positive, which is bizarre. There's a Rogerty
review that like lives in my brain all the time,
and it was a review for Brokeback Mountain, and he
was talking about why telling a specific story will resonate
with more people because you're telling something that is detailed
and authentic versus something that's like trying to be for

(49:20):
every experience, even once you don't fucking know. And he
was like a lot of filmmakers try and like tell
a queer story by being like, here's a little bit
for everyone, even though I don't actually know the experience.
And then it doesn't even like land with queer people,
and so it's just like vague. It's just vague. And

(49:40):
he's like, Brokeback Mountain was such a specific story about
these two people, but he's like, you're watching like straight
guys call people that they haven't called in years, as
like the ones that got away. You're watching like women
do the same thing. And it's like, because it was
so specific, it resonated harder with like the idea of

(50:01):
lost love that everyone knows versus something that's just like
I don't know what, what do analytics say? Everyone will
like right right right? Oh that is yeah. Also hate
to hand it to him, but that right, that hit
because he's got a lot of opinions I do not
agree with. But but yeah, you're you're totally. I mean,

(50:22):
I feel like this movie kind of does scratch that
same itches, Like if if Justine's story was less specific,
the story wouldn't work the way that it does. Yeah, which,
speaking of scratching itches, the sound design, Oh my god,
oh my god, that rash that she develops, and like

(50:46):
the scene where it's like getting peeled off, like it's
a lot I I also really I wanted to just
kind of shout out the scene between her and the
doctor who is spoking at the appointment, which I was like, hilarious.
I was hilarious to me because I am such an

(51:06):
American du fist that I'm like, is this a joke
or like, is this just what French doctors are like?
I don't know, but that scene I thought was so
that was like one of those scenes where it's like, oh,
there was points were made in that scene, but it
wasn't in a way that was I don't know that
felt preachy or overwritten or anything like that. But the

(51:29):
scene where Justine is going to get her rash looked
at after it breaks out and she goes to a
doctor or a nurse and has it looked at, she's
not diagnosed correctly. They have a conversation and they have
basically a conversation about how women are not taken seriously

(51:50):
by doctors and specifically fat women in the context of
the conversation, and it seems like Justine's take away from
that conversation is like, well, this is a broken system.
So this is not where I'm going to get the
answers that I need and I thought that the way
that Julia, I mean, I would be curious what other
listeners think. I thought that the way that Julia Dukerno

(52:11):
like illustrated that point by the doctor saying that she
had had a fat woman as a patient who had
been repeatedly not just misdiagnosed, but like refused medical care
based on a like an issue that had nothing to
do with the size of her body, and having that
be sort of a wake up call for Justine of like, well,

(52:31):
this isn't a system that's going to serve me or
like treat me fairly basically. I just, yeah, I thought
that was like such a cool, effective way to make
that point. It's truly mind blowing. Like some people, I think,
I like blew a few minds when I told a
few friends that there's a weight limit for Plan b OH,

(52:53):
I did not realize that either. Yeah, it's only effective
up until I think two pounds. And then like I
saw that scene and I've like watched it. I watched
it with my husband and I brought it up to
him and he's like seen it himself. From like it
took me a very long time to get diagnosed with
a combination of like endometriosis and PCOS because I would

(53:13):
go to the doctors all the time and they're just like, well,
you're fat, lose weight and that's why you're having a
bad period. And I'm like, this feels significantly worse than
what you're describing. I'm like this, this feels like I
need some medical intervention soon because I'm like now dealing
with chronic anemia. And it wasn't until an e R
doctor was like, have you never been tested for either

(53:36):
of these things? Like has nobody ever considered it? I'm like,
I've never even heard of it. I've been having these
symptoms since I was like eleven years old, and I
think I was like nineteen at the time, and it
was like the first time I gained diagnosis. And now
to this day, I will like go to doctors and
get the same answer and I'm like, no, actually, I
have these two things and my ovaries looked like a
bunch of grape clusters, so if we can get that

(54:00):
taken care of, and they're just like no, no, no,
it's fat. To where I was just like whole, it
just doesn't work. It's just like it just doesn't work.
I did a lot of research on this topic for
a podcast that I have abandoned Sludge an American healthcare story.
It ended, you don't need to abandoned it because I'm

(54:22):
done hiatus. Yeah we'll say that. Um, but yeah, I
started to examine all the ways in which particularly marginalized
people have been completely failed by the American health care
system on the basis that they are fat, or they

(54:42):
are trans, or they are a person of color, or
any number of things. Yeah, it's a real bias that
a lot of healthcare professionals harbor and people die as
a result. So absolutely, and that doesn't even begin to
bring in the insurance component of it, and how discriminatory

(55:04):
that is on top of everything, Like it's even if
you can find a doctor who's going to give you
a proper diagnosis, can you will you be quote unquote
allowed to have the issue treated? And I mean Justine's
character is a sis white girl from a family of
veterinary doctors, like she is very privileged and even so,

(55:27):
I mean it was like the frustration and futility of
that scene just like I don't know it it really
hit for me because it was just like, oh, this
is just a zero sum game. Where even though Justine
is talking to a doctor who fully was outraged and
recognized like why would a fat woman be refused medical treatment?

(55:49):
Like that's absolutely ridiculous. But even so, the doctor who
is saying that is also dismissing Justine's concerns that she
has about her own and is misdiagnosing her. So it's like, well,
even the doctor that quote unquote gets it is fucking
up and not listening to their patient and taking their
issue seriously. So like, who the fund do you turn to?

(56:12):
In that scene, Justine does not get diagnosed with cannibalism,
and that's up. You need to start letting smoking doctors
tell us where cannibals is. It's also like why she
runs into Alexis arms. Yeah, for sure you're gonna go
to anyone that's like, hey, this is what I think
is going on with your and like, I guess you

(56:32):
know more than me. I don't know. Yeah, that scene
I thought like that scene was so I just have
never seen a scene like that before that made a
very legitimate and impactful point about something and also advanced
the protagonist story in doing so. It feels weirdly rare

(56:55):
that that happens in the way that it does in
this movie deeply, so I hadn't like already in a
series of things that I hadn't quite seen anything like.
It was yet another one, and especially that in her
her dynamic with her roommate is another one that I
keep bringing up American Psycho. But like, I love it

(57:16):
when women shoot men the way men shoot women because
it feels so fucking rare that you're just like I
have stumbled upon something, because you never see them shot
in like the same like slow pan down examinations, and
like the best part is every time you watch Justine

(57:37):
watching him, she looks like Jack Torrence in the Shining. Yeah,
She's got like eyes low and she's just like kind
of scoping him out and nose starts bleeding, yes, like
very intently looking at him. And then like the possessiveness
that she gets between her and her sister about him
to where she doesn't even register any information. It's like,

(57:58):
don't talk to him. I called him. It's mine now.
Like it's always interesting when you get to see like
the lens of objectivity moved in a different direction. Right, Oh,
I just thought of this, And it might be because
we talked about this also on the other episode we
did with you recently, Vanessa, where we talked about the
kill your Gaze trope. But I was like, oh, wait

(58:20):
a minute, that does happen in this movie too, because
even though Adrian and Justine have sex, he identifies as
gay and he like tells her several times. Yeah, so
he's kind of, as far as I could tell, he's
the only identifiably queer character in the movie with any

(58:41):
kind of narrative significance. And he also dies at the end,
so part of it fell up very like. I watched
that scene a few times, and then the thing that
I found the most interesting about it is it made
me think about puberty and that very scary moment that

(59:02):
I think everyone has either like experienced or is afraid
to admit that they've experienced, in which they turned someone
into an into not not even object, into a tool
for exploration and don't really give any regard to like
how that person is affected by that, to where it's

(59:24):
just like, I'm gonna engage in something really intense with
you and then I'm going to disappear completely, Because that
was my intent the entire time, and I just wanted
to see what that felt like, or like I want
you because I decided I want you even though he's
mostly just the one time he was into it was
because he was like kind of fucked up in horny
and like not into her the entire time, but like

(59:47):
she decided that he was something that she wanted, so
she was going to take it anyway. And it's this
very uncomfortable but human look into like the inherent selfishness
that springs up during puberty that we kind of either
learn to reel in or let it spin out of
control in terrifying ways and become awful adults. Yeah, that's

(01:00:10):
a great way to put it. Yeah, I I I
had that sort of bookmarked as just something that I
wanted to to talk about because yeah, Adrian is the
only identifiably queer character. I do feel like the writing
takes care to tell us who he is. He certainly
has a lot like his His impact on the plot

(01:00:30):
extends beyond his sexuality by a lot, because he's, you know,
to an extent, the only person who is like quote
unquote onto her and like but also very much cares
about her and is trying Like, Yeah, I was kind
of I was kind of stuck on his character because

(01:00:50):
it didn't feel like a cut and dry, kill your
gaze trope. But he is certainly I mean, he is
a queer character who is dead by the end of
the movie. Yeah, it's It's definitely one where like I
keep wondering to myself, like is it deliberate? Is it deliberate?
And what is that deliberate action trying to say, because

(01:01:13):
there's so many elements to this that are like thoughtful
enough that I'm like, either this was like something included
and that was just like the trajectory for him, or
there was a deliberate reason for that, right. Yeah. Yeah,
I also had I was just like I'm not sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the intent is here. Nothing
struck me as so like, oh my god, I can't

(01:01:34):
believe the director made this choice and I'm offended by
it or anything like that. It was more just like,
oh I did notice that, but it's quizzical. Yeah, I
just it's like I wonder how much yeah, like like
you're saying that, how much thought and like what the
decision making was behind that? Because I felt like ultimately
what was important about Audreyan's character was that he which

(01:01:56):
we see in that awful scene where Justine realizes that
he's dead and he's not just her the person closest
to her who isn't accountable, that's like laying next to her.
And it felt like the most impactful thing about his
character was that he was someone who was close to her,
who gave a ship about her and cared about her.

(01:02:18):
And it felt it felt like the significance of his
character was, you know, just unrelated to his identity. It
was like, this is the person who matters to me
the most, who is not my family and accountable, like
and so you feel you like feel that loss when
she and also the I mean the performance from um

(01:02:39):
Garant Marallier very French, very French, but like her performance
in that scene I thought was just so like gut wrenching,
lee awful when you realize that he's dead and she
thinks that she's done it and like all this ship
and yeah, I just I I ended that character's arc
with with just question marks. I don't know, I think

(01:03:03):
this could be. This is just this is a new
thought that I'm just having right now. But I've been
trying to figure out what his character like reminds me
of and what it echoes of, And it kind of
reminds in terms of like when I've felt like that.
He reminds me of any time I've told a man
that I've been wholly uninterested in him, but I was

(01:03:24):
kind to him, and that was a green light enough,
Like it makes me think of every time I've been like,
there is no sexual appeal here. You're a friend and
roommate or you're like schoolmate or co worker that I'm
kind of nice too, but like me looking out for
you no matter how much I say I'm not interested

(01:03:45):
in you, is the green light to be like, but
we're into each other, right, you mean as far as
like how Justine, Like she's the one who's like, oh,
I've I've got this green Is that we mean? Yeah,
because I noticed, like even after they have sex, he's like,
I'm fucking gay, and even before that, everyone else is
telling her like she knew that, and she knew that,

(01:04:07):
and everyone else is telling her like, this will not
end the way you wanted to with him, like because
she looks at him very like dreamy eyed, and even
when he first pulls her into the bathroom, he has
made it so fucking clear I am gay. I do
not want you this way. We are friends, but when
he first pulls into the bathroom, he's trying to show
her a video of her on the phone that like

(01:04:27):
uncomfortable video, but she literally looks at him and smiles
and even raises an eyebrow and is like what are
you doing and is like, oh, maybe he's trying again.
And it's like he has made it so clear to
you that he's not into you, but she's still like
maybe now. The entire time also just emblematic of the

(01:04:48):
confusing nature of coming of age sexually and how we
like to say, as someone who has been in love
with a gay man before, you're just like, oh, yea, no,
he told you. He told you, Like stop stop. I've
definitely had like a boyfriend who's been like I'm fucking gay,

(01:05:08):
and I'm like, does this mean we're not going to prom?
And it's not registering. Oh, I'm glad. That's such a
universal experience. Ye yeah, And and that is like that
is a I mean, I guess even that conversation alone
is like that is such a messy aspect of being
for both of them, of like being a young person

(01:05:32):
figuring your sexuality out and like Adrian does have it
figured out and he's clear, and also like Justine is
like but like you know, and it's I don't know.
I mean again, I want to know what our our
listeners think is it's a pretty like gutsy dynamic for
the writer to take on because it's I mean, just

(01:05:56):
based on the last two minutes of discussion, it is
like certainly a thing that happens and exists and can
be confusing to navigate, you know, like some whatever. Like
in the situation, in my personal experience, we were able
to get through it. It's all good, We're still friends,
it's like fine. And then other situations and differently, it's

(01:06:16):
a real life dynamic that exists, but it's not one
that I've seen attempted in movies very often, and I
kind of get why because it's a like risky, messy
thing to attempt in a story. It's a fucking mine
field that doesn't really have enough discussion or examination to
like figure out how to approach and what those dynamics are.

(01:06:39):
Because I can I feel like anyone that's ever been
in that situation, it's like the first time you truly
realize what a big spectrum gender and sexuality is to
where you're just like, I don't know where my rigidity
is and I'm still figuring it out and maybe it's
like kind of solidly somewhere, but I'm still not sure,
and the language doesn't exist for it, and my birds

(01:07:00):
in the Bees conversation is so heteronormative and for baby
making that I have literally no guide for this. Like
I remember sitting down with my mother and being like,
were you at all prepared for two of your daughters
to be queer when you're giving us the sex talk?
And she's like, I just learned about dental damns from
your thirty three year old sister a year ago. I

(01:07:24):
was not fucking ready for any of that. Nothing prepared
me for it. And so when that's like one of
your first formative romances and society isn't advanced enough to
help you navigate it, everyone is messy and everyone makes
the wrong choice. Well, that's what's so cool to me
about this movie, or at least one of the things
where the character that we are watching and identifying with

(01:07:48):
because she's the protagonist, is someone who is like fucking
up a lot and like making mistakes and like not
behaving very well to the point where she's eating people.
But this movie has this rooting for a cannibal, Like
that's like the writing if you, as a writer can

(01:08:08):
get us to root for a cannibal like your good
writer period, especially because like the cannibalism can easily be
seen as an allegory for things that are perhaps more
relatable to your average person who isn't engaging in cannibalism, where,
you know, a lot of people have discussed how this

(01:08:30):
movie is allegorical for, you know, just a coming of age,
sexual awakening, just the kind of general idea of discovering
your identity. Some people are even like it's about experimenting
with drugs, probably other things that you could see it
as an allegory for. To me, the main one was
like the coming into your own as a sexual person,

(01:08:51):
and like starting to mature sexually and the whole kind
of like sexual metaphor, where that is a messy thing
to now the gate as basically any person, especially because
of the culture we live in and how we are
all products of our environments and how culture does not
adequately prepare really anyone to especially like when we were

(01:09:16):
coming of age sexually and everyone in generations before us like, yeah,
the boomers were not read. I mean, it's like van Efa,
you just like said it very cular. It's like the
boomers were not ready, right, So it's just yah, it's
a very interesting thing to explore. So it's not as
though like the movies and being like the movie, we're

(01:09:37):
not like, oh wow, look at Justine. What a model character,
what a role model I can look up to kind
of thing in that way. But it's more just like,
let's examine how messy and complicated and often confusing and
sometimes shameful this processes for everybody, and especially because again

(01:10:00):
our culture where sex is still kind of taboo, especially
in certain contexts, and rape culture is still pervasive, and
a lot of people's understanding of consent is still pretty murky,
and there's very little emphasis on female pleasure and women's
sexual autonomy, and any sex that isn't sis heterosex has

(01:10:22):
historically been demonized, and people are shamed for having kinks
and just like all this stuff that makes navigating your
own sexuality a difficult and again messy thing that again
a lot of people are conditioned to feel shame about,
and cultural expectations make it so a lot of people,

(01:10:44):
like we see Justine doing in the movie, funk up
and make mistakes and push other people's boundaries and comfort levels.
And yeah, so I just think that it's really cool
that this movie explores this awakening process for this young
woman and that you can see it in all these

(01:11:06):
allegorical and symbolic ways. And yeah, I mean the idea
of shame where I was just thinking about, like I
was trying to just like think through I was like, Okay,
why cannibalism for this story specifically? And I feel like
shame is the key there where there's so few things

(01:11:27):
that to everyone essentially is like you would be ashamed
if you ate another person, Like that would be a
universal feeling of shame minus a very very very very
very small fraction of people who exist. And I I

(01:11:49):
liked how it's like not liked. I mean, it's very
difficult to watch, but how it in the context of
a coming of age story. It's like, how can you
make anyone watching this movie if the feeling of shame
And it's like, oh yeah, like evoking the feeling of
doing the most shameful thing that no person is ever
supposed to do. Of course that's going to like bring

(01:12:11):
a universality to this character. That is like such a
smart use of the idea of cannibalism. Like it's just
so good. It's so smart because it's one of like
the last taboos. It's one of like the last things
that's like we don't talk about this, and if we do,
like the person choice, we like looked at a certain
type of way, like sex is far from like the

(01:12:35):
last one, but it certainly still is one. And by
like merging the two and like piggy backing it together,
you end up I was going to say odd, but
I'm not going to say odd. Um, it's fucking beautiful
that a movie about cannibalism makes me like feel a
little bit more in awe of humanity by the end

(01:12:55):
of it, towards like, oh, this is such a collective
experience we pretend isn't real, that we're all like completely
united by that by the end of it, I'm just
like humans or something else. I would recommend if you
haven't already read it. Vanessa and listeners. Um. There's a
Guardian interview with the director Julia Duquneau entitled Cannibalism is

(01:13:17):
Part of humanity because she rocks this is what her
whole thing. She's like, Yeah, I made this movie because like,
cannibalism is extremely a part of humanity, and that's what
I'm going for with this movie. I desperately want to
know her thoughts on like meat consumption and farming now

(01:13:42):
that is I would be hilarious if she is like
like militant vegan right where she's like, it's not, We're
not that far from it. Like, I desperately want to
know where she thinks, because she shows it in the
movie as well, Like where do those lines blur for her? Yeah, right,
let's take another quick break and then we will come

(01:14:03):
right back and we're back. There are two other things
that stuck out to me about this movie. I guess
I'll go for the more obscure one first. And maybe
this is like it's like hit for me personally. I
don't know, but the ending of the movie took me

(01:14:25):
off guard plot wise, because it is such a good
ending to the movie to be like, oh, this is
like the idea that it's like this isn't your specifically's fault.
This is something that was passed down to you, and
I'm sure like you can make the argument for like
a generation, like it's a generational trauma in this family

(01:14:45):
that women eat people um or or even just the
offspring this bloodline eats people. We don't know, because the
two siblings in this family are are girls. It could
it could be you don't know, but it is the
generational inherited trauma. And so in a way, it's like
Justine can feel relief that it's like this is not

(01:15:07):
an individual shame or flaw. It is coming from somewhere.
There's a context for it. And I thought that was cool.
But then also the idea of like the last line
of the movie is her father basically saying, but you're smart,
you'll figure it out. And so it's like, now there's

(01:15:27):
this context for this huge like shame and humiliation and
sadness in her life, and she's also being told by
the person providing that context, who she loves and trusts,
good fucking luck. Like you know, I just thought that
was such a just again, just like a very human
frustration and experience to be like, oh no, no, no,

(01:15:50):
our whole family is fucked up. But like, uh, I
don't know, like good luck, hope you figure that out,
Like it I just I loved it. Maybe it'll be you, right, Like,
maybe you'll be the one to resolve general like who
knows how far back this goes, like you would assume
further and he's like, no, Justine, you're a smart kid,

(01:16:10):
good luck whatever, brutle. It made me think of every
time an older cousin would like, note something funked up
in our family and then be like, but we're betting
on you, kid, And I'm like, that's a lot of
weird bloodlines to depend on me to rectify. It's a
lot of pressure. You're like, oh, yeah, I've got like
taking a Like it just felt so like in and

(01:16:33):
out and in of like, oh, this is a generational issue,
it's not an individual problem. But then her dad is
also taking the extra step to make it an individual
problem for her and say so you should probably figure
this out or this is just going to keep happening.
It's such a I don't know, It's like every family
has their version of whatever that is. It's also like

(01:16:56):
this terrifying moment when you find out this very intimate
thing about like your parents relationship dynamic because like her
mom is so aloof the entire time that I'm sure
in her mind that she's like the colder one that
leaves a lot of things up to Dad, and then
finding out that Dad is just kind of a midnight
snack for mom sometimes, Like, yeah, it's that moment where

(01:17:22):
you're like, oh, there's just stuff behind the curtains the
entire time that I haven't been privy too because everyone
decided that I couldn't handle it, right, Yeah, I do.
I think it's kind of interesting the choice to really
not include her mom very much in the movie and
then the reveal it comes from the dad, and like
there's another earlier conversation where she talks to her dad

(01:17:46):
outside the hospital after she's eating her sister's finger, and
I guess that like more effectively sets up this big
reveal that it's like and it was her mother who
is responded like she passed down the annibulism gene whatever.
But um, yeah, it definitely made the reveal more shocking

(01:18:07):
because I guess we don't don't really know that much
about her mom, if anything, so at first I was
sort of like, what is that? But then also it's like, oh,
it's good. I mean they have to withhold that from you.
And then in red and then when you walk it
back the second time, you're like, oh, that was like
absolutely the right choice and you understand it. Watching a
second time, it makes me want a like prequel to

(01:18:28):
Raw that we where we focus on her mom and like,
I want to focus on her mom. And I'm also
like fascinated by the dad because I feel like the
dad could be such a fascinating exploration into like kink
as well to where it's like what what in him?

(01:18:48):
That like? Because he was like, I pursued her and
then we finally kissed, and then you find out that
that scar on his lip came from their first kiss
in which she bit him. But he was like I
want more. I know this, and I want more and
I want to be around for more. So I'm like
what in him was like not only like this is
something that I can like love her in spite of it.

(01:19:11):
To have a relationship that long and have it be
like something that happened that young and adolescents, it can't
be in spite of He's there has to be an
additional appeal. He's got to be into it. Yes, yeah,
You're not in a relationship for decades for nothing. Getting
eaten actively eaten by your spouse if you're not kind

(01:19:32):
of like this is hot, right, Another just like familial
relationship thing I wanted to talk about was the relationship
between the two sisters. Yes, yes, that was the other thing. Yeah,
where I'm realizing like how rare it is to see
a relationship dynamic between two sisters be at the center

(01:19:55):
of a movie. And it was just like, first, just
like refreshing to se you that because of the lack
of that relationship dynamic that we don't get that much
of um. And then on top of that, I just
thought it was really well written. It felt like a
very authentic dynamic to me, where sometimes we see them

(01:20:16):
getting along and bonding and getting closer, and then other
times we see that they're pissing each other off. The
like kind of older sister thing of like her being
overly critical of her younger sister is something that like
I very tragically identified with because I'm like, oops, this

(01:20:38):
reminds me of of all the times that I was
really critical and mean to my younger sister. Sorry a
movie too, yes, like because it really like it's I
this again felt like I God, damnit, Roger Ebert, Like
I feel like it connects back to what you were

(01:20:59):
saying earlier than I of like the specificity of this
is a relationship between sisters, and the fact that it
doesn't shy away in vague ify that relationship strengthens the
universal connection that people are going to take away from it,
because I was thinking about my little brother when I
was watching this, and it was like, well, obviously, like

(01:21:20):
we're not you know, like both like let's pe together
because that's just not what our relationship is. But but
the dynamics and the you know, fierce loyalty that many
people feel towards their siblings and the like that's such
a like Justine fox up so bad and Alex welcomes

(01:21:41):
her back and Alex murders just a best friend, and like,
you know, that's an individual journey of can I forgive
and forget? But like the whole like concept of like
the thing that binds them and the reason that they're
fucking up is this generational problem that they both have.
And they're both individuals, they have different personalities, they have

(01:22:04):
this very sibling e dynamic, but they're kind of like
haunted by this same generational issue in different ways. And
it seems like that's that, and also like the just
intense bond that a lot of siblings have is what
makes them able to forgive each other and navigate things.

(01:22:25):
I just I thought it was so again, just like
making cannibalism, the generational trauma is such a weird, cool
creative decision right down to like I really love the
detail of when they're saying bye to each other, when
Alex is in jail and Alex flips off Justine and

(01:22:45):
you see the stump of her finger and then Justine
like pushes the scar like against the window, and it's
so intimate, and then they're like having this little interaction
even if it's like uncomfortable and the rely eving, but
also that they're deliberately like showing each other like you
did this to me, ha ha. That I think only

(01:23:07):
exists the amount of times I've like waxed poetic with
my brother about the like dangerous ship that they used
to do with my tiny young body because they were
like ten years older than me, and they would like
stuff me into toy boxes and push me down the
stairs or like let's go sledding. Oops, Vanessa slid into
the road, and then now we're like ha, ha ha,
you almost killed me, And I'm like, yeah, because we

(01:23:31):
were weird children around each other. We're so fucked up,
we like love each other fiercely and put each other
through the wringer because like we're getting our baby brains
cooked up into adult brains and then just acting out
on each other because we in our heads default to
like they're going to be there forever. They can't unsibling me,

(01:23:54):
so they will be far more forgiving of my worst
moments than anyone else. But instead that means we put
each other through more hell than we put anyone else
with the right, like, yeah, the the highs are higher,
the lows are lower, and it's just so siblings, Like
siblings are inherently fucked up in the way they treat

(01:24:14):
each other throughout their lives. Like, show me a healthy
sibling dynamic, you just like it doesn't exist, and then
birth order makes hierarchy. Yeah, oh yeah, that's just built in,
so you just have this little cast system coated into
you in your house where it's just like, all right,
Louise got cheerios before me, so that clearly means fuck me.

(01:24:35):
I guess this is why I was just like God,
the idea of parenting is so stressful because it's just
a small, perceived slight that sends your children on a
careening like freight train of emotional distress because it's like, well,
but yeah, I mean it was and and the betrayals

(01:24:55):
that Alex and Justine make to each other are severe.
But again, I feel like it just like speaks to
the writing of the movie that I never questioned why
would they still defend each other in this situation? Like
it's so obvious why they would. And it doesn't mean
that it's morally right or that it's but it's like,

(01:25:16):
of course they're going to be there for each other.
Who else are they going to talk to about this
awful thing that exists in both of them? And who
else do you have that kind of intense bond and
loyalty and love for in their lot? Like it's it's them.
So yeah. Again, It's like another thing that I feel

(01:25:37):
like is not really explored in many movies this effectively. Yeah,
for sure, it's it's usually far more traveling pansy Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.
I love that as an adjective. Traveling panty, traveling pansy. Um,
does anyone have anything else they want to talk about.

(01:25:57):
I do want to say the soundtrack is amazing, great
soundtrack rate, score, the music is incredible. I wanted to
share a quote from Julia from this Guardian article slash
interview that I referenced before, in which she says, quote,
I didn't want to glamorize anything, especially with the girl's bodies.

(01:26:21):
A body is a body, and every movie we see
women have to be beautiful and fit or whatever the hell,
and they have to fit a certain box. And no
women fart, poop, pe burp. This is why you can
relate to them, because they are not these heavenly creatures.
They are real people with real feelings. And when they
go down, they go down. This is something we don't

(01:26:43):
see enough of. Always in movies, when people cry, they
cry like this. And then apparently she uh, Julia mimes
a sorrowful weep um saying like St Mary crying, We're
all equals with our bodies. So fun golf. I love her,
Oh my God, like that she wonderful. That said, like

(01:27:08):
I wish that there was like more. It's it's interesting
for a movie that acknowledges medical issues as it pertains
to fatness in the size of your body. It is
like still very very like generally white thin movie, which
again I wonder what the because it seems like Julia

(01:27:29):
Ducurno is very aware of these issues and very conscious
that feels strongly about them. So I do under like
kind of what the casting stuff is. It does seem
like particularly with the lead, this is like a longstanding
working relationship between the actress and the director. But I
mean that was like kind of the only thing in
this like the only thing in this movie that I

(01:27:52):
was like, is this a France thing? Like, but there's
diversity in France like that, it's not a France thing.
So I was curious about that, and I'm I'm really
curious to see more of what Julia Ducarno does and
how she like what do you do after raw? Like
that's get it get pregnant by a car? I'm so

(01:28:18):
excited to see it. Is that what titan Nick is about?
So the premise is a young girl who gets into
a horrific car accident and instead of like you know,
growing closer to her parents and seeking comfort there um,
she has like this crazy scarner head and instead becomes

(01:28:40):
obsessed with cars with a desire to romance them. Um
becomes an erotic car dancer and gets pregnant by one
and then breaks the law and has to run on
the lamb by dressing up as a pre pubescent boy
and convincing a man that she is his long lost son.
Like she takes big swings and people love this movie.

(01:29:01):
Like all the early reviews of this movie where like, Wow,
she pulled it off. I'm like she did that? How
that concept? Oh do you execute that? And here we
are talking about a movie in which a girl plucks
fat from a lip out of her teeth and eats it,

(01:29:21):
and we're like, remember when we all got our periods?
So now I'm like I have to see whatever this is. Right.
By the way, the actor who plays Adrian is Arab, Yes,
but I think he comply. I mean, it's not it's not.
I'm not saying it's a completely white cast, but it

(01:29:43):
is a close to whitecast. Yeah, that is true, but
just wanted to acknowledge that. Yeah, does anyone have anything
else to mention? I'm also sorry I'm on the Wikipedia
because I've been trying to not spoil Titan Titane for myself,

(01:30:04):
like even pre knowing we were doing raw for this episode.
It just the premise was so intriguing to me. The
I'm like, I don't want to know anything, I just
want to see it. But I'm on the Wikipedia page,
so turn off the podcast. But Garant Marillier, who played Justine,
is credited on the Wikipedia page for Titan as a

(01:30:25):
character named Justine. What so this might be an expanded
universe thing, like I don't know, the Chrono extended universe.
How fucking cool would that be if this is like,
oh my building out an outour freaky universe. Oh, I

(01:30:47):
would be so excited. I'm very excited to see this movie. Now. Sorry,
I didn't mean to like, but yeah, she's credited as
Justine again. What I'm going to look out for that.
I'm going to look out for that. That's so exciting.
I'm very health Okay, So that was all I had
to say about this movie. I love it so much.
The movie, of course, passes the Bechdel test. Justine talks

(01:31:11):
to Alex quite a lot, as well as to her mother,
and many, if not most of those conversations past. They
do talk about Audrean sometimes, but they're mostly talking about
vet school and eating people cannibalism, so at a passes

(01:31:33):
as far as our nipple scales zero to five nipples.
Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens um,
I would give this like a four and a half.
I think there's just like a few little things that
pinned for me that we mentioned throughout the episode, But

(01:31:56):
by and large, I appreciate a movie is not afraid
to explore via cannibalism slash cannibalism as a metaphor, a
movie that is not afraid to explore parts of her
life and body and sexuality that feel extremely authentic to
that experience, even if a lot of what she's doing

(01:32:19):
is like fucking up and making mistakes and like being
gross and like surprise, biting people and you know, stuff
like that, Because even though that that's a new one, um,
Because even though that behavior is not okay, and kissing

(01:32:42):
and biting people without their consent and pushing people past
their comfort level are all wrong, we relate to the
humanity of her experience in a way that most movies
don't even attempt to do or couldn't do, because they're
made by people who simply don't understand. So it's just

(01:33:02):
very refreshing too to watch a movie written and directed
by a woman that is not afraid to explore the
messier side of life. And cannibalis, Yeah, the messy side
of cannibalism. That's a good that's a good elevator pitch
for this as a like a rob com cannibalism, it

(01:33:26):
gets messy. What a great tagline. Um. So yeah. I
think that there's a lot of cool things happening in
the movie as far as like what it's examining, and
you know, different interpretations, as far as like symbolic allegorical stuff.
And I think it's really cool. And I will give
the movie four and a half nipples. I'll give uh

(01:33:50):
one to Julia Ducarno, one to each Justine, Alex and
their mother, and then I'll give my half nipple to
the poor dog Quickie who had to be put down.
I'm really sad about that, poor Quickie. I was sad
about Quickie to forgot, although it led to one of

(01:34:10):
my favorite interactions, which was her reading the text from
Quickie and not even responding to the dog dying and
immediately going, why does my sister have your number? Loved it.
It's this movie is wonderful. Okay, I'll meet you at
four and a half. It's like the rare one that
it's like it extremely passes the vectil test, and it's

(01:34:32):
also like very near a movie that is like I
just would watch this a million times. I want to
show this movie to everybody. I'm very excited to preach
the gospel of Julia Ducarno. I wish, I mean, there
are certain things that I just was like curious about
I wish were explored a little more. I do wish
that there was more diversity in terms of race and

(01:34:55):
body in the movie. But this movie fucking rocks, Like
it's just so good, and I feel like it's for
so many reasons that we've described. I think it's so
wonderful and cool and should not feel this rare or
unique to find a woman at the center of a
story who is very you know, specific in her experience,

(01:35:20):
like in this, like it's very like she couldn't be
anyone else but who she is. She's not a like,
you know, focus tested, vague ified protagonists that I think
we see very very often when we see female protagonists.
Right now, I think that like it would be whatever
however you feel about it, It's like it would be

(01:35:40):
naive to say that Black Widow wasn't focused, tested to
relate to as many people as hugely possible. This is
a character who is who she is, but because of
how skillful and thoughtful and risky and cool the writing is,
anyone can put themselves in her place because what she's

(01:36:01):
feeling is becoming an adult struggling with her relationship with
her family, and like, we've all done eating a person
here and there, so it's great. I just I'm so
excited about this movie. I'm so happy that's in my
life now. Four and a half nipples, I'm going to
give all of them to Julia Ducarno. I'm so excited

(01:36:24):
to see her next movie, Vanessa, what say you? I'm
also going to do the four and a half because
I love this movie. I love this movie and I
am so happy that it exists and just exist as
like a testament to like, why you want to diversify
who's behind the lens because the stories are just more
interesting and the perspectives are rare. The half star is

(01:36:49):
for pretty much the same reasons as y'all, and that
um I would like especially like to see both more
diversity and body diversity, because like, if you're going to
mention like a fat person and a fat person's plate,
I'd like to see one. It's it's Chekhov's fat person
at this point, like let let me, let me have one. Um.
But at the same time, it's such a concise, well

(01:37:10):
told story that doesn't really waste any time, but like
luxuriate's where it needs to. And I love this movie
and I love how specific and odd and real this
character is, which, by the way, if that's the kind
of character that interests you. On HBO, Max Soon is
a movie called We're All Going to the World's Fair
that has a teenage girl that is the closest to

(01:37:32):
any teenager that I've ever felt familiarity with. I feel
more like her than any like glistening hair teen and
anything that's ever existed. And it's one of my favorite
horror movies of last year. Um I literally cried because
I was just so excited at something like it existed.
And that's how I felt the first time I saw
ras so like definitely for a half stars. Yes, love it. Vanessa,

(01:37:54):
Thank you for joining us truly, Fripple, thank you for
bringing us one of our new favorite movies. Thank you.
I love being on here. Yell are amazing. You are
tell us where people can check out your stuff. Um,
you can find me. I've recently changed my Twitter handles,
so you can find me under An E. S. S.

(01:38:15):
Guerrero on Twitter and S and S. Guerrero on Instagram,
and starting October you can find me on shutters Behind
the Monsters. Um, yeah, I think us about it. Amazing.
Thank you again for being here. Come back anytime. Oh
I have a podcast. Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
I was like both like, wait, hold on, I'm literally
about it. Edit right now. Um, I have a podcast.

(01:38:36):
It's called Kicking and Screaming. It's you can find it
under kick Screen Pod and it's where I specifically talk
about horror and martial arts because they're my two favorite
genres and I think they're very frequently discredited and are
also one of the few industries in which marginalized people
can get their foot in the door. So I love
talking about it and if you like about those like
those genres, definitely check it out when you get a chance. Yes. Absolutely.

(01:38:58):
You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At Bechtel
Cast you can subscribe to our Matreon at Patreon dot
com slash Bechtel Cast where you get to bonus episodes
every month plus access to the back catalog, and that
is five dollars a month. You can also get our

(01:39:19):
merch on t public dot com. At t public dot com,
slash the beck Doel Cast for all of your merchandising needs.
And if we don't see you on the merch store,
well we're going to eat you. Yeah bye,

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