Reality Bites with Bridget Todd

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlin,
my Sharona is playing Turn it Up and Let's dance. Caitlin,

(00:23):
did you know that My Sharona is a song about
an underage girl? I did not know that, like extremely underage,
like thirteen. Yikes. Well, well, welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
That was my That's one of my favorite bubbles to burst.
Not because but that was something I learned while I

(00:45):
was making Lolita podcast, because I was just making a
superlist of popular songs that are actually about exploiting young women.
And My Sharona is I mean, look, if you want
to pause the podcast and take a gander at the lyrics,
be my guest, but it is, uh, it is a
rough road. My my dad. That was one of my

(01:06):
dad's favorite songs. And I was like, Dad, you gotta
you gotta take a peep at these lyrics, and he
was like, oh my, oh my. Now look this is
just a sampling of one of the elements of culture
that maybe don't age very well. Welcome to the Bexel Cast.
My name is Jamie Lofts and my name is Caitlin Durante.
And this is a podcast where basically we take media

(01:30):
that you love and point out everything that's wrong with
it from an intersectional feminist lens. I think that's a
little harsh. We we take a look at it from
an intersexual fevtist lens. We're not a part of the
ruin everything culture. We take a look at things that
just happens sometimes as a byproduct of what we do,
because a lot of things kind of just ruined themselves.

(01:53):
I guess so is that fair to say anyway? Um So,
we used the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point
to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course,
is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel,
sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, originally conceived as a
just kind of one off joke in a comic by

(02:15):
Alison Becktel called Begs to Watch Out for Uh, and
has since been kind of repurposed as this media metric.
There are many versions of it, the one that we
use requires that two people of a marginalized gender who
have names must speak to each other, and their conversation
has to be about something other than a man, and

(02:36):
ideally it's a narratively meaningful conversation. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
And today we have a long time request with a
much beloved guest, so let's get to it. We're covering
reality bites directed by one bend Still are written by
one Helen child Dress Childress. Don't know, sure, don't know,

(02:58):
and we'll never know. And that's on in hernalized misogynt
we know how to pronounce Ben Stiller's name makes you think, okay,
uh so look at her wonderful returning guests in here. Indeed,
she is the host of the podcast There Are No
Girls on the Internet. She's the host of the new
podcast Internet Hate Machine on cool Zone Media. Check it out.

(03:22):
And do you remember her from our episode on Eve's
by You. It's Bridget Todd. I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me, Thank you for bringing us
reality bites. I'm very excited, too excited. Did did to
discuss us us us this movie? Um that you have
brought us? I feel like This movie is very often

(03:43):
held up as like this is the gen X movie, which,
as many you know, and we can bitch all day
about jen X and we will, but I will say
it must suck as a generation to be told like
this is you when you like it or not. Like,
I don't think that millennials really have a movie that

(04:05):
is like made like this is your defining thing. I
think I would resent it on. I would just resent
it automatically. So to our gen X listeners, whether you
like this movie or or not, I think it's just
I feel like it's the only generation I know of
that is like, there's one movie about gen X and

(04:25):
it involves one of the most toxic relationships I've ever seen.
Committed to film. Oh, brother, um that said, I'm excited
to discuss this movie. There were elements of it I
liked very much. So bridget to kick us off. What
is your history with reality bites? Oh, I have a
long history with this movie. That's why I suggested it.

(04:47):
I loved it when I first saw it. I saw
it as a young person, maybe I saw it in
high school. I even had the soundtrack that I bought
from the Salvation Army, which the soundtracks, slaps sound it
really is. Yeah. I loved it, And I also think
it was a movie that when I was young in
the suburbs, I thought, when I'm an adult, this my

(05:10):
life is gonna be like this. It's gonna be cool,
creative young people hanging around in a group house, you know,
smoking weed out of cans and quitting with each other.
It really presented a life that I found aspirational at
the time. And it's funny because watching it now, I'm like,
thank God, that wasn't my eye. Yeah, not a great

(05:34):
fate as it turns out. Jamie. What is your relationship
in history with this movie? Um, I don't have much
of history with it. I had never seen it before.
It never really never came across my desk as a youth.
I have worked with one of the producers of this
movie before, Stacy Shure. She's really really awesome. So I'm

(05:55):
coming in a little bit biased here because I just
think that she's like championed so many movies that centerr
women and queer stories, and like she She's done a
lot of really really cool work. But I never actually
like sat with this movie before and watched it, and
honestly I was coming in thinking maybe I wouldn't like

(06:15):
it very much at all. They're definitely like I mean,
I think that this movie, like I didn't know much
about the history. I didn't know it was like written
by a young woman that is like very much pulling
from her own experience, which I think is really cool
and especially in would have been super rare. And then
just like I don't know. I mean, my main issue

(06:37):
with this movie, which I'm sure we'll be talking about,
is it's like hyper focus on this shitty relationship that
I mean, and amongst other things. But it felt like
there were a lot of things that that this movie
was commenting on that even when characters sucked, they sucked
contextually in a way that felt like there's a lot
of satire and a lot of commentary on like why

(06:59):
people are making the choices they are, Like no characters
goats completely uncriticized by the movie except for like this
relationship that I just have Like oh um, But but
I'm very excited to talk about it. I feel like
there's a lot of it resonated more than I was

(07:19):
expecting it too. For me, Caitlin, what is your history
with reality bites? I Honestly, I am not sure if
I had seen it before, because there were parts that
were very familiar to me, the my Sharonas scene in particular.
I that scene is really fun. It is. But what
I remember even more than them dancing to that song

(07:41):
was the line where they're like, Avian is naive spelled backwards.
I don't know why Corny jed x line. Ever, why
did I remember that so much? I'm not sure. I
think there's a very real possibility that I had only
ever seen that seen probably from that movie Trivia Game.

(08:02):
Seen it, Oh my god, And that's just why I
remember seeing it. That's the millennials true movie. Oh yeah,
Oh you just a lot to memory for me of
how much I love seen it and I haven't played
it in years seen it kind of rules. Yeah, oh yeah,
that's so much cultural osmosis. Um. Maybe that maybe I

(08:23):
had seen that scene that way too. Also, this is
like Janine Garofolo being I was like, that's the true
harbinger of of a gen x um classic. Is like
Jennine Garofolo in a supporting role. Yeah, we've done it.
That's how you know. Um. But yeah, the rest of
the movie wasn't super familiar to me, so I think
I had actually seen the whole thing, and it was

(08:46):
just that scene in the gas station that I saw
and then thought I had seen the whole movie. I'm
not really sure. So, yeah, not super familiar with this movie.
But but there's a lot to talk about there is
This is not the primary thing to talk about. But
I didn't know Steve Zon was in this movie, and
as a known Zon head, I was like, who, well, well,

(09:08):
look who we have here, Stevenson. I love Stevenson so much.
The fact that anyone would say in a movie that
no one wants to have sex with Steve Zon, I'm like,
you're gonna want to check your notes on that one.
I do love Steve Zon. Do you remember when he
played the cat Stewart a little? Of course. I remember

(09:28):
when he played Stewart Little. Yeah. He played Nathan Lane's
best friend and his only line was snow volume of
best friend. God, he's so delightful. It's such a delight
when he like, no one's ever sad to see Steve's on.
He's what was your Is that your favorite Steve's on movie?
Stewart Little Yes. I'm trying to think of where I

(09:49):
first fell in love with steve 'son, it would have
been I remember this is I don't think where I
fell in love with him, But he was in a
Christen Early Christen Stewart movie called Speak, which is about
a very traumatic it's very traumatic, but Steve's On plays
the nice teacher of a middle schooler who experiences pretty

(10:12):
horrific abuse. And so Steve's On, You're like, oh, nice,
Mr He's just always Mr Nice. He's always Mr Nice?
Is Mr Nice? He cannot play a villain. Um, I've
accept in White Lotos, where he definitely does. Oh that's
I didn't finish that series. Um. I first saw him
in the movie joy Ride. What's that? It's basically a

(10:35):
remake of the movie Duel where a scary truck driver
terrorizes Steve's On, Paul Walker and Lely Sobieski And it's
pretty cool. What else is Stevenson is also and You've
Got Mail? I think maybe that's the last time I
got thrilled to see him on the show in a
movie I had. The Whites did not like. It's funny.

(10:55):
I'm looking at his IMDb reality bites. Was only that
like the fourth movie he had ever been in he
was in an episode of All My Children, a movie,
a TV movie called First Love, Fatal Love, another movie
called Rain Without Thunder, an episode of a show called
South Beach, and then reality bites like that was his
This was like early Steve's On. This was his break,
this big break. I read that because the casting process,

(11:17):
for I mean, the production of this movie is just
like wild in general. But I read that Ethan Hawk
had just like done a play with Steve's on and
was like, he's cool for human and then Steve's on
being Mr nice Um was really enthusiastic about playing a
queer character who is like who comes out of the
closet and is loved and accepted for it because he's

(11:40):
Mr nice So the only movie I've ever seen him
being not nice in is um a perfect getaway. He's like,
I don't want to spoil it, but it's got I
think Mila Djovlovich maybe uh. And he's very much the villain,
like not just like the villain like in White Lotus
where it's like, oh, he's rich and has a lot
of privilege, A villain villain like a bad guys. Good

(12:03):
for him. He's got range. I also remembering he's Mr
Nice And I don't know if anyone else was a
baby sitter and saw the Diary of a Wimpy Kid
movie series, but he's he's Mr Dad in that one,
and yeah, sure he makes some mistakes, but at the
end of the day, he's Mr Nice. Well, shall we

(12:26):
move on from Steve's on? The beginning of the ence
is in this movie this is a feminist movie podcast,
which you wouldn't have guessed from that conversation at Tirade
about Steve's on about how he's nice. Yeah, let's recap
the movie, shall we? Let's do it? Okay, So we

(12:47):
open on Lelna. That's Winona writer. She's giving a speech
at her college graduation, which effectively sets up the theme
of the movie, which is like, Hey, there are all
these problems in the world, but what do we do
about them? I don't know that. I like how every
generation will, especially now that like we're no longer the

(13:10):
youngest generation and we're growing crustier with each passing day.
I do think it's like funny how that this is
the question of literally every generation. But everyone is like,
but it was my idea. We're kind of the first
people to have this problem and it's like, wow, Dan
getting old is punishing. It was not our idea, and
we are also fumbling it. So amazing. Yeah, Okay, So

(13:35):
then we see video footage because Lelena is making a
documentary about her friends. Her friends are Troy Dyer. That's
Ethan hawk Hot mm hmmm. His character is despicable. His
character is horrible. Yeah, Vicky, that's Janine Garoffalo and Sammy
Steve's on of the Zones sence Hot. There's I just

(14:00):
I'm going to be annoying today. Um there was. I
was thinking of just like other very gen xy movies
and things in general, and I was thinking about Rent,
which I feel like also goes in this category very much.
Also features I think, a visibly terrible documentary about someone's friends.

(14:22):
It was a very niceties thing to do to think
that you were. I mean, I guess it's like how
millennials and gen z use social media to be like
get ready with me, and it's like, God, everyone's so
fucking boring and you all have the same instincts exactly. Yeah,
And I think that to document our lives and make
them public. I do think that Winona Writer's fake documentary

(14:44):
in Reality Bites seems more interesting than Anthony Rapp's fake
documentary in rent That's a professional opinion question. I mean
his documentary is just videoing his I mean, Lena is
like act them questions about like what's it like to
be worried about AIDS? What's it like to do this?

(15:04):
Like she's asking them their perspective the documentary. If I
haven't seen Rented a long time, so excuse me if
I'm misremembering, But if I recall correctly, he's just like
got a camera in his friend's faces and they're just
living their lives. Yeah, he's trying to do him more
Like I'm just like, is who's getting releases for these things? Logistically?

(15:25):
Like who's getting releases for this? Yeah? He was just
bringing his camera to like like support groups in a
way that you're like, this is illegal mark following this
person's anonymity or whatever. Yeah, she's anyway, Here's They both
probably would suck, But I think when known as this
is more interesting and it seems like at least everyone

(15:46):
is willingly participating. That's true time. Here's my hot and
potentially terrible take, is that the TV network in your
Face version of who are not think is like not
that bad? Totally agree, I'm so I would that. I
was going to totally say the same thing. I thank you, honestly,

(16:08):
I truly so. I'm sure we'll get to this and
I maybe I'm jumping the gun. But the scene when
they show it, I was like, it just seems like
the bumper or the teaser, like you don't even what
was so bad about it they I truly don't get it, Okay,
my As I was watching that, I was like, how
different is this from the trailer to reality bites? It's
pretty similar and very similar, but that's like I feel

(16:31):
like that's kind of like one of the bizarro like.
I mean, I know the word irony is used really
heavily in this movie, but that's like kind of the
weird irony of this movie is like a movie about
selling out, but like you would have had to have
sold out in order for it to be made. It's
a studio movie, right. I don't know, Jamie, define irony.
You can't. It's undefinable. Literally, I was as she was

(16:55):
fumbling with that, I was like, oh, I would have
I would not have been able to do that, would
have sucked it up. I also think that what Ethan
hawks characters definition is like also not quite the right
definition of irony? Was this before or after the Atlantis
Morrissette song This exchangees I was like, could no one
in this generation correctly define that word? We don't know anyway. Okay,

(17:21):
So Lene is making this documentary about her friends. We
see footage of them talking. They're goofing around, they're speaking
on their lives and their future plans, and they all
seem kind of aimless and they they're not really sure
what to do or how to proceed. Then we cut
to Lelena having dinner with her parents. Her dad gives

(17:43):
her a gas card, which he says he'll pay the
bill on for a year. He also gives her his
old BMW. There's some debate about whether or not she
should take the BMW because she mentioned being more morally
opposed to BMW's in her graduation speech, but ultimately she
takes the car and loaded the privilege these kids have,

(18:08):
um I know. Yeah. So then Lena we see her
at her job as a I think production assistant on
a morning talk show for Frasier's dad. Oh my god, right,
second only the two times I gasped, No, three times
I gasped. First Steve's on reveal, second, Fraser's dad revel,

(18:31):
Third she chooses ethan Hawk reveal just just just. But
Frasier's dad absolutely killing in this movie. And his character
is a menal jerk he learned, just like in Frasier,
except in Frasier it's complicated. I mean, he's he's like

(18:51):
a softie that we love, but he does run for
like an extreme like he doesn't even vote for like
an extremist candidate, and might have some and not so
great political positions. I would not because I think, isn't
he like a former cop? Like you? You're like, I
don't want to know how this guy votes, but I
do love the just the character setup of I love

(19:14):
my fancy sons, my fancy lad son, my I love
my weird fancy sons. You're like, well, someone's gotta a
little aside. I I only I watched Fraser for the
first time in The Pandemic and my partner loves the show,
and I was like, oh, isn't it about a gruff
guy who has two sons who are British for some reason?

(19:35):
And he was like, no, they're not British, They're just fancy.
I always, for whatever reason, I did assume they were British.
I would say that Kelsey Grammar and David Hyde Piers
do sort of affect a like movie like Transatlantic accent
for their roles. It's not they don't sound like they're
from Seattle. They sound like Rose DeWitt Picater from Titanic. Yes,

(19:59):
they sound they sound like they're from a place that
never existed. But I mean, look, the Fraser reboot, goddamn
if I'm not going to watch it. They shut down
one of my favorite local bars to film, which is weird.
That's a thing that's happening. A Fraser reboot. Oh yeah,
I don't know about this. There's going to be a

(20:19):
Fraser reboot. And they shut down this bar near me
called the Thirsty Crow, just like a fun but like
grimy little bar. I was like, what is Fraser going
to do there? Get killed? Like I don't know. Okay,
So so we see Lena at her job. Then she
gets into a minor car accident with this guy named
Michael played by Ben Stiller, and they meet via this

(20:44):
car accident and they kind of hit it off and
he asks her for a date. Meanwhile, Troy slash Ethan
Hawk has been fired from his newsstand job for eating
a Snickers bar, so he has to move into Lelena
and Vicki's apartment and he crashes on the couch for
a while. We also learn more about the dynamic between

(21:05):
Troy and Lelena, which is a bit contentious. It's a
bit will they or won't they? The friends are hanging out,
we see more documentary footage Lelena and Vicky and Sammy
dance to my Sharona in the convenience store. Troy is like,
I'm too cool to dance. You're like, shut up. I

(21:25):
hate him. I can't stand Troy can't stand. He reminds
I'm discovering that a lot of nineties ethan Hot characters
are really deplorable. Because Before Sunrise is one of my
favorite movies. But I went back and rewatched that recently.
I was like, oh my god, his character is awful
in that movie. He gets a little more mature and

(21:47):
Before Sunset, but I still haven't seen it. I mean,
it's like there's I I'm it's it's so confusing. I
wish I could was anyone able to find like because
I read that this script was written like sevent dy times,
so it sounds like there was like studio notes on
notes on notes on notes. Um. So I'm just like

(22:07):
because it seems like the final script goes all the
way up to like, yeah, fuck this guy, but then
at the last second it's like, nah, he's great, he's great,
and you gotta marry him. And I was like, that
has to be a studio notes. Like I cannot conceive
of a world because it's like the movie goes all
the like she does the she does the right thing,

(22:28):
she bails. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, So then Lelena goes on
her date with Michael Ak Ben Stiller. They make out,
which Troy sees and he gets upset about this and
he picks a fight with Lelena and she's like, if
you have a problem, just say it, and he's like,
I love you, and it seems like he's being sincere,

(22:49):
but it turns out he's just being an asshole, even
though it is clear that he is in love with her,
but he won't admit it. Anoying Can I Can I
ask a question there? Because that's something in rewatching this movie,
I was sort of like, what is this? And I
know people are complicated and I've certainly been there, what
is the vibe of like being in love with each other?

(23:10):
It's also in plan that they've hooked up drunkenly at
least once in the past, at least once. Like why
are they so against admitting it, talking about it, communicating
about it? Like I understand that in in the in
the universe of the film, it's supposed to be like
they can't admit it, you know, they don't want to
ruin the friendship. Why not, Like why it's communicating openly
about how you feel such a villain in the universe

(23:32):
of this film. I feel like my assumption was like
they're twenty two and extremely emotionally immature, Like that was
sort of mine. And like especially Troy, like I mean,
we can we'll talk about Lena and all the ways
where like she's very messy and a lot of regards,
especially with her own privilege, and like she's just like

(23:54):
bad at navigating it. But like Troy especially, I feel
like he's like I don't know, like I'm trying. I
was watching this movie, I was thinking, all this bad
advice my mom has given me at different points in
my life, but where she's like, well, sometimes like people
run away because they know that they can't handle a
relationship even if they care about you. And I was like, yeah,

(24:18):
like I can sort of see that in Troy, of
like he knows he's a piece of ship to some extent,
and like even if you love someone and you know
you're a piece of ship, but then but then he's
also so unwilling to work on himself that you're just like,
I don't know, I don't know, what do you guys think? Well,
I would have definitely had the hots for Ethan Hawk's
character when I was in my early twenties, No question.

(24:40):
I would have let him suck up my life, suck
up my credit, crash on my couch, no question in
my mind, I would have gotten sucked up in that
Troy tornado. Happily, I would have been in love with
steve 'son and then he would have come out to me,
and then I would have been like, I'm happy for you,
and then I would have cried for weeks and then

(25:01):
we would have been friends forever. But yeah, I mean
I don't get the whole Oh, we love each other,
but we refuse to admit it thing. I mean I do.
But for me, at least, if I like someone romantically,
I go out of my way to tell them, see
I will, I will be quiet about it forever. So
I do understand like where he's coming from. But also,

(25:24):
but but I feel like that gets conflated with like,
and so he's allowed to be an asshole and neg everything.
She says. It's like, well, it's one thing to not
express your romantic feelings to someone, but that doesn't automatically
translate to like, and you get to be at evil
villain because you can't. But i'fe like that's where a
lot of the masculine issues that Troy has, that's where

(25:48):
a lot of them live. The film really like validates
his antisocial dick behavior, And it's supposed to be like, well,
he's an artist, he's tortured, he's emotionally unavailable, and we're
supposed to not find that problematic as of you. We're
supposed to like empathize for him being in that state,
as opposed to be like, well, you're an adult and
you are responsible for communicating the way that you feel.

(26:09):
If you can't, we're not all supposed to find it
charming or whatever, right, And it's like there are moments
where Laney like does explicitly say that where she's just like, oh,
you're a fucking artist. Then like where is the art at?
Like what are you doing? What? You don't do shit?
Like she calls him out on his ship, but then
like the but then she just ends up with him anyways,

(26:31):
and the I don't It is a tricky movie because
sometimes you're like, you know, there's a lot of criticisms
I would have of these characters that I'm like, yeah,
I probably did something like that when I was twenty two.
I probably did something emotionally volatile and weird. Um. But
it's it's tricky. Um. There's this through line in the movie,

(26:55):
or this kind of like subplot where Vicky we learned
that she has a lot of casual X and then
she becomes worried that she is HIV positive because a
friend of hers tested positive for HIV, so we see
her going to get tested. We then see a scene
where Lena's boss aka Mr. Fraser's dad is an asshole

(27:17):
to her, so she retaliates by humiliating him on air,
which gets her fired. So now she's worried about money.
She's worried about paying rent. Troy consoles her and in
so doing, he surprised kisses her and she's like, no,
it'll ruin our friendship. And also I'm dating Michael. Troy's
ability to make anything and everything about himself is um

(27:42):
infurious staggering. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lelena shows Michael her documentary and
he is like a VP of programming for this TV
network similar to MTV called in Your Face, and he
thinks this documentary would be great programing for the network,
but Lena isn't sure about that. Um. We also see

(28:06):
Troy after having been rejected by Lena. He's being pretty distant.
Then we see Lilena trying to get a new job
in television, but she can't get hired for anything. She
then considers a hot dog job's hot dog David Spade
hot dog cameo, Hello there. And I also like that

(28:29):
she can't hack in the world of hot dogs. She's
that I found to be good hot dog representation of
like not just anyone can work in hot dogs, which
is true. And on the other end, I appreciate that
there's a through line with Laney that she is a
smart and creative young woman who is constantly thwarted by

(28:51):
being bad at math. Um don't know that? Yeah, it's
like I know this, I know this struggle. I know
this pain at math, bad at money numbers in general
or not her strong suit like no way either. Let's
be real, could either of you to add two numbers
like that in your head? Like he he throws her

(29:11):
like three dred and sixteen plus twenty nine, Like you
couldn't add that in your head quickly without a piece
of paper, right right? And she also like I do
like how I mean, like when not the writer's the bet,
Like I love this character like just buckles under like
one milliss thing of pressure at any time. They're like
to find a word, she's like and like explode And

(29:34):
he's like, what's stupiless too? And she's like, I don't
know that is that doesn't have My favorite line of
the whole movie when she can't add the numbers that
she's guessing and David's fate is like it's not an option,
and then that that seems, I mean, it is a
well written like the line that it ends on. Rai's like, look,
I've been at this job for six months, for a

(29:55):
reason like that's honestly the funniest scene in the movie.
The scene that proceeds that we'll talk about. But there's
some really fucked up ablest language and ideology that's happening there. Yes, Okay,
So Lena, she's struggling to get a new job. She's

(30:17):
bumming around for a while. Then she calls a psychic
cot line and racks up a huge phone bill. So
now she has to figure out how to pay it
off and get her life back on track. So she
basically starts running a scam where she pays for people's
gas with her dad's gas card but makes the customers
give her cash. So she's collecting the cash knowing that
her dad will pay off the gas card, and that's

(30:39):
how she like earns enough money to pay for this
phone bill. She she taps in and out of her privilege.
It's wild, It's wild. Yeah. So then Michael tells Lena
that his network wants to buy her documentary and make
it a series. Um, and she's very excited about that
because she's like, this solve my money problems. And then

(31:02):
Michael and Troy argue because Troy is being an asshole
and he's like, you don't know what Lena needs, and
Michael's like, I know what she needs in a way
that you never will, and you're like, oh my god,
put your dicks away and stop trying to measure them.
And then and then the fact that they go back
for round two before the end of the movie. I'm like, you, guys, this,

(31:26):
this is such a bad look. She shouldn't pick. I
was really hoping she would do the thing where she
is like, wait a second, I'm twenty two. I picked nobody.
I picked myself right, Yeah. Yeah, Sex in the City
finale style. I mean I I do I in the
universe of this film. I always wonder is Michael such

(31:48):
a bad guy? Like what did he do that was
other than with the movie? Like what do you do
that was so wrong? I have the same thoughts. I
don't hate Michael. I think it's very interesting that the
movie seems to want I mean, I feel we're supposed
to dislike Michael because he works for a corporation, but
he's like a yuppie sellout. Yeah, he's a yuppie sellout.
But the messaging of this movie is so muddled where

(32:12):
it's like it's okay if some people are sellout, but
it's not okay if other people are. Again, I just
like it makes me want to read earlier drafts of
this movie because I found Michael to be a pretty
sympathetic character, and I liked that the movie went out
of its way to characterize him as like a guy

(32:32):
that had dreams but was bad at math, and like
he's like, I don't know, it's so weird because you
put yourself in gen X brain and we you know,
we all work for fucking I heart radio. We don't
have a like to stand on when it comes to
like being yuppie fucking sellouts here, we are not even
a little bit. I take what I am. I am,

(32:53):
I have a price, people have met it. You know
what can I say? Right like and and it's a
very twenty two year old mentality. And I don't even
mean that in a negative way. I think, like young
people being vehemently anti capitalist is always a net good thing.
But but to put all of the evils of capitalism
onto like one benz Diller, who is the only person

(33:17):
in the movie, or the only man in the movie
who seems to a be willing to apologize for when
he fox up and be like accept Laney's decisions and
like seems to like genuinely respect and love her. I
felt like a sellout for kind of being like is

(33:38):
he not bad? But like is he saying I don't know?
Are we are we old by saying is he that bad?
But I don't think he's that bad. He is sweet
to her. Troy treats her like shit, Like there's a
noble difference in the way that those two guys treat her.
And I also feel like he is you know, he
like wants to siphon off corporate money to get her

(33:58):
art out into the world, which again you would think
is exactly what's happening by reality bites being made and
by producers championing this young writer and like, so there's
all these like interesting parallels that I'm like, I don't
hate Michael. I understand people's criticisms of him, like ideologically,

(34:19):
but like he seems like a pretty nice guy. I
don't know, Yeah, I would let him take me to
the aquarium restaurant. I'm just saying. Watching that's when I
was in high school. But I first watched it, I
was like, Oh, he's such a yuppy fuck. Troy is
the is clearly the right match for her. Watching it
recently in my thirties, I was like that, Michael seems

(34:41):
like a nice guy, probably got a furrow one k
taking her to dinner. Guy, Like I literally was like, dude,
I don't know. I was like at this point, like
you can't be emotionally abusive and make me pay your rent,
like you make a fucking lane man, And like, anyways,
he really I think he really has choice number in

(35:03):
that scene where he's trying when they have their second conversation,
like you're like the Jester, like holding a skull, Like
it comes out terribly, But I think that he really
is the only person in the movie who really see
Stoy for who he actually is, which is just somebody
who wants to make crafts jokes while really offering not
a lot himself. Is that Yeah? And I also was like,

(35:24):
would I ultimately date a guy fumbling that hard to
make a Hamlet reference? Yes, of course I would. Where
he's like in the Clown and the Skull and he's alone,
You're like, yeah, man, yeah, okay, we're all I guess
we're all on team Michael. It doesn't feel like a

(35:45):
great place to be but what's the alternative? But here
we are. Yeah, apparently it's she has to end up
with a guy buddy movie, right, There's no alternative, So
these are the choices. Okay, So, speaking of selling out,
Lena sees what the In her Face network did to

(36:05):
her documentary footage, which basically makes a mockery of her
and her friends. So she's furious and she storms out
back home. She and Troy talk and he's like, I
do love you for real this time, and then they
smooch and then they frick. But then the next morning,

(36:26):
Troy is very distant and he bails, and Lena goes
to his show that night, I think where Michael shows
up and apologizes to Lelena for the whole network mishap.
He's like, let's go to New York and we'll show
the network the series the way that you want it
to be. But then Troy pops up and he's like,

(36:47):
I panicked this morning, and yeah, I know him an asshole,
but I'm the only real thing you have. Oh my god,
that speech a legendary, a legendarily bad. And she well,
this is like, what what drives me up a wall
about this movie is she reacts appropriately, She's like, go
fuck yourself, because he literally is like, yeah, I'm gonna

(37:09):
treat you bad. Yeah, I'm gonna disappear out of nowhere. Yeah.
I don't play by anyone's rules, and I don't respect you, God,
but I love you. And dude, oh my god, imagine
that a man like said that to you, all defiantly
expecting you to like marry him because of that pet
or something, or like run away with him. The audacity

(37:31):
of straight man. Let me tell you, Oh my god,
I was. I was a pretty exceptionally um bad decision
maker at twenty two, but even I wouldn't have gone
for that bullshit. He's he's literally telling on himself in
a in a way that it's like almost doing her
a favor because then you're like, okay, you're telling me
who you are. Now I can walk away. There has

(37:52):
to be a version of this movie where she walks away,
like I would hope. So, what the hell do you think?
It's like one of those situations like I was it
Pretty in Pink or Sixteen Candles where there's two apparently
two versions where she chooses the one guy and then
she chooses the other audiences didn't like it, Like, do
you think there's a cut of the scripts somewhere where
she doesn't choose him. I think it's pretty in pink.

(38:15):
I'm guessing if there were seventy drafts, the coin couldn't
have flipped in his favor and all seventy right, I
don't know what you would think, right, Yeah. Anyway, point
is that this love triangle slash like competition between Troy
and Michael for Lolene's affection. It's like reaching its peak here.
Then Troy leaves town. We find out it's because his

(38:37):
father passed away, but he doesn't really tell Lolena that
he's leaving, and so she's looking for him. She's thinking
about him, she's moping around, and then Sammy's like, oh no,
Troy went to Chicago. So she's about to go after him.
But before she can, Troy shows up at her doorstep
and he's like, I love you, and I wish I

(38:58):
had behaved differently the morning after we smooched and fricked,
and then they smooch again, and then we flash forward
in time. They're together, it seems like they live together,
and then the movie ends with Lilane's dad calling and
being like, why is there a nine dollar bill on
my gas card? Yeah? The end, Can I say something

(39:18):
about that? Because the scene where Okay, they smooch and
they frick, he wakes up, feels weird, bails Okay. Then
Laney is like where is Hei. There's like a montage
where it's like that's sad you two song is playing
and it's like have you seen him? Like she's like
going to all his old haunts and like finding his laundry,
and then Steve's on it is like, oh, his dad
is sick. He's in Chicago. I ever heard of a

(39:40):
fucking phone? Like, I guess I feel like, I mean,
he does call her, but then he's like I can't.
Oh that's all right. I hate it. It's like I
guess i'd just be like in the universe of the film,
him not being able to physically express himself verbally even
this to be like, Yo, my dad is really sick.
I'm gonna be gone for a couple of days. Talk
to you. Then I don't think we're weird. When he

(40:02):
shows up unexpectedly at her door, we're supposed to be like, wow,
this is so heavy, and in reality, it's like he
just skipped town for a legitimate reason, but couldn't even
leave her a voicemail letting her know, Like, and why,
I guess I feel like why is it treated as
deep in the movie or like like a weighty emotional
choice all he had, Like he couldn't leave a message, right,

(40:24):
and then him showing back up is like, oh my gosh,
it's so romantic that he just showed up on her
doorstep and professed his love after he's been an asshole
to her for the entire movie, which is like, it's
so it's such an abrupt way to end it, because
it's like if there was a draft of the script
produced where the fact like it's it's referenced twice early

(40:48):
in the movie that Troy is dealing with a terminally
ill parent, and like the I can't imagine, thankfully, I
can't imagine the existential stress that comes with that, especially
when you're so young. Like that is a real thing
that I'm sure, I mean like causes people to act

(41:08):
out and like you know, like that grieving process is
a real thing, but like there's no emphasis put on it,
and it's made to seem like well, because the horrible
thing happens that excuses how poorly he's treated people this
entire movie, when it's like there's I don't know, like
I always we've talked about this a bunch on the show,

(41:29):
but there's like such a dearth of like movies that
address grief in a in a thoughtful way, and it's
like that there is an opportunity to like explore it
with Troy's character, but like it just doesn't really go
there because it's like you obviously like feel for him,
he's lost a parent, but it doesn't mean that he
hasn't been treating Laney like ship seemingly before his dad

(41:53):
was even sick. Like it's like he's just been an
at Like he's an asshole going through something horrible. That's
an interesting thing to explore, but you can't just like
forgive the behavior. I don't know, he does nothing to
redeem himself. That's exactly it. We we as the audience
never see him, Like what is the thing that we
don't see him grappling with any of that, like coming

(42:14):
to realize, you know, I have treated her badly and
I have like not treated her the way that I
wanted to treat her, And you know I've learned from
my behavior. You don't you don't see any of that,
you know where you just are spant to be like,
oh his dad passed away, that was some sort of
emotional block or weight lifted, and now he's gonna show
up at her door and she's gonna be thrilled to

(42:34):
have him. Like I think if the movie had shown
us a little bit or like built like built that
out a little bit more, I would be more willing
to accept it. Also, sign oute Jamie, how many beverages
do you have? Because I've seen now the coffee whatever
than the kids. This is I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Look
we've got we've got three. We've got three on rotation

(42:57):
right now, pretty cool, or or any of the diet cokes,
because you know who loves the diet coke. Jamie's got
a diet coke. I was like, wow, quirky white girl
drinks too many big gulps. Someone has my fucking number,
Like ridiculous. By the way, we need to take a
quick break and then we will come right back. And

(43:26):
we're back and we're so hydrated and we're doing great.
I would say that most actually the things I'm drinking
are not contributing to hydration. Um, by the time this
episode comes out, I will have already said something about it.
But I've been working at um Haunted hey Ride, and
so I just I forgot I had all all of
my last night's hay Ride beverages, and so I've just

(43:47):
kind of been draining them throughout the morning and afternoon. Beautiful. Um,
so we we've we started talking about the Lana slash
Troy slash Michael love my angle. What else needs to
be said about that? Yeah, let's let's kind of tackle it.
So I this kind of gets into my curiosity about

(44:10):
like how this movie was written and made. Okay, so
a lot of this revolves around the writer, Helen child
Dress or Childress I'm truly not totally sure, but there's
a there is a piece that came out a couple
of years ago from Atlantic writer Sriah Roberts, um work
I really like, but about sort of the legacy of

(44:32):
this movie and um, how it's remembered because I guess
when this movie came out, it was not popular with
its target audience nor which I feel like is a
very gen ic thing of like fucky, you don't make
a corporate movie that me, you know, so like whatever,
I get it, But how Helen child Dress is like
kind of been left out of the narrative even like

(44:55):
it just feels like a very hollywoody story where studios
were like, Okay, gen X, like they're now viable consumers
or whatever by the early nineties, and we want to
have a like generation defining studio movie because there had
been a couple of indie movies that had done well.
There was a a Richard link Letter movie that I've

(45:17):
never seen that, but like they were like, Okay, there's
an audience for this, let's do a studio version of it.
So they bring in this young writer, like Helen child
Dress is is Laney in a lot of ways, which
she's very much admitted to. And so she's like being
given five hundred dollars a week to write this movie.

(45:39):
Laney makes four dollars a week. She's pulling from her
own experiences and her own friends. But by she wasn't
even invited to the twenty five year reunion of this movie,
like it got swallowed full by Hollywood, and like, I mean,
I don't know, like whatever, I can't make a character
judgment on Ben Stiller based on this, but it seems

(46:01):
like this is more remembered as like Ben Stiller's first
directed movie and not like Helen Child. Dress's experience is
committed to film. She also has not gotten a script
produced since, which feels relevant. Um, we just wanted to
share a quick quote from her from nine also to

(46:24):
tie it back to the love triangle that was ben
Stiller's suggestion and idea. Helen Child just early versions of
the script gave fuller pictures of all I guess four
main characters live, so there was more Steve's on, there
was more Janine Garoffalo, but ben Stiller was like, let's
keep it focused on the relationship, which is what we
all have hated the most. Interestingly the note from the

(46:46):
male director. But um, yeah, she said. Um. Helen Child
was said, I have worked consistently and constantly for twenty
nine years. Um. They estimated she's written forty screenplays since
Reality Bites. Um. She says. Of the handful she wrote
on Spacked, half were sold er optioned. Most of them

(47:07):
feature female protagonists. In all sincerity, I think that was
a problem. Um, which is I mean, nineteen is a
stretch we have well covered, and so that is definitely
a thing. So yeah, and and to be clear, so
she she went for like two decades or slightly more
without any writing credit. So if you look at her

(47:29):
I am dB, she does have some writing credits from
like I think sixteen and beyond, I think for mostly television.
But yeah, she made this movie that ended up being
this like cult classic, like people still ride for this movie.
But ben Stiller hasn't had trouble directing more movies. And yeah,
she's not given the credit where credit is due for

(47:52):
like telling her own story and for example, like the
I'm also pulling this from that Atlantic piece. But um,
the iconic my Sharona dancing at the gas station scene
is like one of the producers of this movie, Michael
Shamberg credited that scene to Ben Stiller entirely. He's like, yeah,

(48:12):
that was Ben Stiller's idea. But Helen Childress was like, um, hello,
I wrote that into the screenplay in the script, So
how and what why was it his idea? It wasn't.
It was just this male producer failing to give the screenwriter,
Helen her Duke, credit for writing that scene into the movie.

(48:33):
And then when that was pointed out, this guy Shamberg
was like, oops, uh, yeah, I guess she does. And
then he said something like, so she deserves credit for
guiding Ben's direction. And then he says, I think the
reason that I mistakenly gave Ben all the credit was
that he was determined to give this feature film his

(48:53):
feature film directorial debut a strong visual style. So the
guy can't even like her, But like, what does that
have to do with Like it's again bare minimum ship, Like, oh,
he directed the script, like that's that's his job. She
wrote the scene like it's hurt. So yeah, It's just
all of this is very indicative of the way that

(49:16):
women in Hollywood are often erased from the narrative, forgotten about, ignored,
not given do credit, all of that stuff. All that
to say, also, this movie is produced by Danny de Vito.
Just wanted to throw that out there. Danny. I don't
have any more information than that, but to bring it
back to the love triangle. Focusing on the love triangle

(49:38):
was very much a Ben Stiller note, and it's the
thing that we that bothered us the most. In that
Atlantic piece, they do talk a little bit about Michael,
but in a way that I thought was interesting where
like that character it seems like went through a lot
of different drafts and Ben Stiller wasn't originally supposed to
play the character, and then eventually he's like, oh, I

(49:58):
can pull from my own experience as you know, like
not even to insult it, but like you know, as
like a working sellout basically to you know, kind of
flesh out this character and like, I feel like I
can relate with some of these moral dilemmas. And I
guess that he and Helen Child just would improvise as
the two characters to like figure out what that relationship was,

(50:21):
which I thought was kind of a fun way to write.
I'm sure that that's part of the reason why Michael
does come out as a more sympathetic character than if
he was just written as like, this is the guy
you don't want to end up with, this is Mr Business,
this is Mr Evil. Right, I'm seeing not to bring
up Titanic again, But what choice do I have? I mean,

(50:43):
I think it would have been, yeah, kind of an
easier or like maybe a lazier choice to have like
the Ben Stiller character be like cal Hockley, and then
you have your like Ethan Hawk being more of the
Jack Dawson who is artsy and poor and who isn't
some cog in the capitalist machine like the boyfriend at
the beginning of every lifetime movie, where like, this woman

(51:06):
is uptight, woman is dating like a guy who only
cares about his job, and she needs to date someone
who is free and wants to save this Christmas tree
farm or whatever. She needs to move back home and
start a Christmas tree farm and that's uh, and and
go to church tomorrow while you're at it. That's a
more respectable outcome for a woman. Yeah, but yeah, just

(51:28):
to put I guess a button on the love triangle thing,
it feels like such a trophy choice to have a
woman be in this like hetero love triangle where she
has to pick one or the other and the option
of like not picking one of them isn't presented, and
then ultimately she picks the worst option of the two

(51:51):
guys because again, both aren't great options, but at least
Michael is nice to her and Troy enjoy such an asshole,
and it just kind of sends this message that so
many movies and in so much media has delivered to audience,
which is that, oh yeah, a man can treat a
woman like shit, uh, and he doesn't have to apologize

(52:13):
for it, and she will still pick him for reasons unclear.
I personally blame the studio executives for that. I feel
comfortable blaming the studio executives for perpetuating that because it
just feels like very nineties Hollywood studio notes in general,
because it sounds like Helen Child just wanted to take
it in a totally different direction that would have allowed

(52:37):
you to explore these side characters who I think are
like really interesting, and there's a lot like the you
do get a fair amount with Lena and Um and
Vicky and their friendship, but like, I just like I
wanted to see more of that because there's so I
was trying to think of other friendships that It's like,

(52:58):
it's a loving, supportive friendship that is constantly challenged by
like class issues, which is like something I have you
don't really see in movies very often. I was like,
I'm you know, I want to see the version of
this movie that's more focused on that. I want to
see the version of this movie where you know, our
only openly queer character gets more than like mentioning three

(53:21):
quarters through the movie by the way I'm coming out,
I mean great, but you know, you just don't get
a lot. Where's Where's my son? Yeah, and I think
the point that you make about flushing out those those
side characters more, I think is so apt, especially with
somebody like Vicky, because you know, they allude to the
fact that Vicky is obsessed with like seventies pop culture,

(53:43):
and so if she's you know, just graduated from college,
that's probably her childhood. So are we supposed to under
We're supposed to like what's going on there that she
is someone who is a you know, sexual libertine, but
it's perhaps obsessed with the ideality childhood of her youth.
Like I feel that there's a draft of the movie
that made that flushes that out, But in the in

(54:04):
the version that we see, we're left to connect these
dots that are not really connected for us in ways
that I think just don't really work. It's confusing. Yeah,
it's like I would love to know why she's so
fixated on disc and I bridget You're probably right that
it's just like a childhood nostalgia thing, but we just
don't even get I didn't even think that yet, that
thread is never really connected. And then that, I mean

(54:29):
is one thing I did like is that like much
like us and I probably for generation ever because whenever
special as we think we are. Um. I did like
how these characters are constantly trying to contextualize their own
experience using pop culture. Where even when Vicky is talking
about her stress about waiting for to find out if

(54:50):
she is HIV positive or negative, which I thought was
I mean, I wasn't expecting that to be tackled within
this movie, and I thought it was pretty tastefully and
thoughtfully done. Um. But the way that she explains her
anxiety is like imagining herself as a character on Melrose
Place and right, but like the way that it's presented

(55:13):
isn't condescending. It doesn't make her seem silly or like unintelligent.
It's like, oh yeah, that's like, not only are you
worried about potentially being very sick? Like also I feel
like that in that like simple exchange, she's describing how
she thinks the world will perceive her if the results

(55:35):
come back a certain way. Because pop culture trains you
how to see the world in so many ways, and
like moments like that, I was like that is awesome.
You never get stuff like that that's interesting. I have
mixed feelings about the way the movie handles HIV and AIDS.
Um the movie seems to be quite obsessed with it.
Number one, there are several references and like sometimes kind

(55:57):
of like offhand jokes made about it, or like characters
will make an offhand comment or joke about HIV and AIDS.
And then the kind of main conflict that the Vicki
characters is dealing with is that she is worried that
she might be positive for HIV, and so she goes
to get tested. And this is based on her having

(56:20):
you know, multiple sexual partners. She has a little book
like a sex diary, seems, where she like writes down
the names and the dates of the people she had
sex with. She doesn't always remember their names. I used
to do that based on this movie because I saw
this movie when I was a version and when I
started having sex, I was like, oh, you're supposed to

(56:40):
keep a diary. I don't have it anymore, but in
my early days of being sexual, I love it. It
could be a helpful tool, I feel like, But you know,
so she gets tested, she's waiting on the results. Um
Prior to her getting the results, she you know, expresses
a lot of concern about, you know, yeah, the way

(57:01):
she might be perceived or what her life might be
like if she is HIV positive. I just felt that, Okay,
for this to be an issue that a hetero sis
woman is dealing with, when HIV and AIDS is something
that largely affected the queer community, it just feels like

(57:24):
a weird erature of that. And obviously I'm not saying
that hetero people cannot become HIV positive and have AIDS,
but it's an issue that was famously not handled well
because it disproportionately affected the queer community, and you know,
like Reagan and and other administrations and institutions didn't give

(57:45):
a shit about the queer community. So it was just
like very mishandled basically every administration. Right. So for a
straight character to have a storyline where she's concerned about this,
it just felt kind of maybe indicative of that erasure.
But I was like, well, what's the alternative to have
the one queer character in the movie to be concerned

(58:05):
about that. I wouldn't want that either. I mean I
think that that then you could really easily skew into
tragedy porn. And my understanding is that um Helen Childress
is not a queer writer, and so it's like, would
it have been her place? I also was not sure.
I mean, I wasn't surprised that this movie had a

(58:26):
preoccupation with the AIDS epidemic because it was started being
written in It makes total sense to me that this
would be something that these characters would realistically be talking
and thinking about. But I mean, yeah, I I wasn't
quite sure where to place it. I thought it was
like interesting that they tackled the subject at all. I

(58:49):
think it would have been a really easy issue that
this group of friends would have been thinking about to
erase from a major studio movie. I don't know. Yeah,
I guess it's like with this specific writer in this
specific movie. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have preferred it
if the steves On character was if his whole storyline

(59:09):
was defined by that. But then I guess that that's
also the thing with having only one queer character in
your movie. Like, I don't know, it didn't bother me
that much, but also I'm completely open to that story
point not being yeah, yeah, curious would if any listeners

(59:30):
have any insight on that. Um, can we talk about
the steves On character, Sammy, Let's talk about on Baby,
that's gonna be a new segment on the show, and
then talk about the steves On intersections. Okay, So it

(59:51):
didn't even register with me that he is a queer
character for a while, which does a few things. Signals
to me that he is just allowed to be a
queer character without that being like the first or defining
thing you know about him, So his queerness is normalized
in the story and in the world that he occupies.

(01:00:12):
I also didn't notice any stereotypes of gay men being
used with his character. But also he's kind of barely
in the movie. He's the only character of the friend
group that we see that we never see with a
romantic or sexual partner, except there's maybe like one quick
little scene where Sammy's in a diner with a guy

(01:00:33):
named Lance. Yeah he's he, and he does introduce him
as his boyfriend. Oh okay, I missed that. Okay, but
that's such a quick throwaway moment, and clearly because I
missed that part. So the fact that he like he's
just not allowed to have any kind of like romantic
subplot the way that other characters that's kind of like

(01:00:53):
the focus of the movie. I did really like the
scene where you see him and Vicky kind of like
doing this bit where they're rehearsing him coming out to
his family. Um, it's cute. And then you see the
aftermath of him coming out to his family and they
did not receive the information. Well there, they don't seem

(01:01:14):
to be supportive, and you see how that affects him.
You you see him talking about, you know, the reasons
that he has chosen to be celibate, that he you know,
hadn't been honest with himself about who he is, and
you just like you see a lot of his kind
of him expressing his inner struggles in a way that

(01:01:35):
a lot of movies, especially from that era, never bothered
to do or just like never handled well. So I
thought that was it's queer representation in a movie at
a time where there was very little on screen queer representation,
and when it was there, it was usually really grossly mishandled.

(01:01:56):
This representation isn't necessarily the best. Again, his character is
kind of the of the four friends, like he has
the least screen time and I think it's Helen Child.
Riss did indicate that she wrote many versions of this group,
wasn't the case. So again, it's like a studio issue
of like, well, sure we can have an openly gay character,

(01:02:17):
but not too much where. And this also feels like
an era where I mean, even going back to Rent
of like queer characters are or like the movie Philadelphia,
which I've never seen but I know what happens in it.
We're like, Okay, we could have gay characters on screen,
but only if the worst possible thing happens to them.

(01:02:37):
And so it's like we're not interested at this point
in pop culture of like just exploring a queer person's
day to day life in the way that this movie
seems to be interested in. But then the studio doesn't
let you go all the way of just like letting
a gay man be a person, like and Steve's on
such as sweetie, where's his first line? Where he's like

(01:03:01):
such a He's just like, I don't know, I want
a career. Oh, Mr Nice, Mr Nice. Yeah, let's take
another break and then we will be right back and

(01:03:22):
we're back. I wanted to go back a little bit
to the so this is a very white middle to
upper middle class. I think maybe spans because the middle
class existed when this movie came out, which is kind
of like confusing to navigate. I think that. I mean,
obviously they're all young white people who have done some college,

(01:03:44):
and it seems like Ethan Hawk didn't finish college, not
because it was financially struggling, but like because it was
like a that was his ideological preference. So it wasn't
like he had to drop out because he couldn't afford it.
So as far as class, because I think it's like
interesting and telling that this is like hailed as the
gen X movie, even if Janet's audiences didn't like it

(01:04:07):
at the time, and it's still so centered on the
white middle to upper middle class experience. Oh yeah, there's
a lot of like social issues that get brought up
in the movie that the characters talk about, Like so
many movies ignore societal ills that are affecting you know,
people across the globe. But they're talking about like the

(01:04:29):
energy crisis and the environment. They're talking about class and
wages and workers rights, they talk about world hunger. Like
these things get brought up and the movie is largely
about a young woman who's like optimistic and she wants
to make a difference in the world and she wants
to try to help fix some of these societal ills.
But then she ultimately like doesn't really do anything and

(01:04:51):
she just like kind of marinates in her privilege and
makes a documentary about her friends what happens in Rent. Also,
she acts like working retail after college it's the world,
like the worst thing that, Like everybody works retail after
college and it's not that like she makes it seem
like it's the worst thing in the world. Okay, So

(01:05:12):
I had so many feelings about that plot point, and
that was another thing where it's like that to me
was like what was really interesting about Like the tension
between Vicky and Lena is like something that does genuinely
suck about Lelena is she like wants to have her
like cool, burnout friends, but she always there is an

(01:05:32):
element to her character where she always has to view
herself as a little bit above them, which is complicated
because like there are things she says them like you're
being an asshole. I know you're technically correct, where especially Troy,
Troy is not paying rent. He refuses to look for work,
like he's just being He is like actively mooching off

(01:05:53):
of her and then negging her all the time, which
is like go fund yourself. Situations very different with Vicky.
I feel like it's telling that the only two people
who live in this four person apartment are the two women. Um,
I don't think that Sammy has a job for most
of the movie. Yeah, Also, I don't think he lives
does he live there? I think he lives somewhere else,

(01:06:14):
But I don't know ifwhere he lives somewhere else because
at one point he comes in and um, went Ona rogers, like,
what are you even doing here? You don't live here?
But she says that's Detroit too, and he does, and
they call it the Maxi Pad, which leads me to
believe that it's a house where only women live. Yeah.
I don't know, I might been reading too much into that. No,

(01:06:34):
I like that, But like with Vicky, I mean, like
she I don't know, like there is kind of this.
I wish that we could have explored it more because
it's like Lenna is, you know, trying to like live
life on her own terms while being while actively denying
her own privilege, but you know, capitalizing on her own
privilege when it suits her. Where Vicky it seems like

(01:06:56):
she's from the lower middle class baby, it seems like
she doesn't have of a safety net in the way
that Lolena does. And she's working at the Gap, she
becomes a manager. She's like taking pride in her work
in a way that I thought was like really cool,
Like she was just like, oh, you know that sort
of shy, like I feel like a corporate sellout, but
I'm also like I've never taken pride in my work before,

(01:07:19):
and like that's a cool feeling, and that was like
a cool element to that character. And then Lolena thinking
she's a little too good for it and and like
openly expressing that to Vicky and Vicky being local, fuck
you, you you elitist break. There's there's there's like a couple
of different times in the movie where someone calls another
character out and you're like, yeah, good for you, and

(01:07:42):
then it's just kind of dropped, and then we cut
to the next scene and everyone's getting along again. Yeah,
what that gap thing? In particular, when La lana Is
thinks that she's high and mighty, she's like, I'm not
going to work at the Gap for Christ's sake. But
then when she's at her low moment, when she's on
the couch, chain smoking, racking up money to the mine,
she's like, oh, you think you're hot, ship because you

(01:08:02):
work at the Gap. Like it's interesting how for her
the gap is like beneath her. But then also she
feels like it's being lorded over her later, right, Lena,
So yeah, I wish that Vicky we just got a
little more Vicky context. But I do like the peaks
you have into her life of like, I don't know,

(01:08:23):
it was sweet that her parents, uh love each other,
but she's very grossed out by their relationship and like, oh,
good for you, Vicky, good for you. Your parents love
each other. Oh I didn't read that that way at all.
I read it is that they don't like each other
and they like the romance is completely dead. We shipped
with the door open. I thincause that's how dead the
romance I think shipping. I think that you can have

(01:08:45):
romance and ship with the door open. I agree the
two are not mutually exclusive, but I think it's a
very naive take on Vicky's part. It's like, well, I
think maybe they're they're in super love because you can
if you can see someone take a ship and still
be like you like, let's smooch and frick um. So

(01:09:05):
I mentioned this, but so as Lelena is like trying
to sort out her money troubles and trying to get
another job after she kind of like puts down working
at the Gap. She then goes to her mom for
a loan, and her mom suggests, well, why don't you
work at a fast food restaurant. This is the scene
where the R word is just casually thrown around by

(01:09:26):
multiple characters. Several characters. Yeah, and not just in this scene,
although it gets it gets said other times. And Lena
dismisses a job at a fast food restaurant citing a
very ablest reason. I do. I do appreciate that the
movie kind of makes a point to show that a
job at a fast food restaurant is harder and takes

(01:09:48):
more skills. She cannot she cannot add eighty five together
quickly or whatever the numbers were. Because the movie does
have little moments of commentary like that, like kind of
class commentary, and I think it has a lot of
good moments. Yeah, there's a scene that seems to be
satirizing networks like MTV and the entertainment of that era

(01:10:12):
where Laney's watching a show and I forget what it's called,
but it's this woman. She's like the host of this show.
It's like a fashion fashion it's meant to be House
of Style. Did y'all watch that? Oh my god? Empty.
I might be older than you all, but it's it's
clearly meant to be MTV's House of Style. Cindy Crawford
got her start on that show, like it was like

(01:10:33):
it was that checked that but I think so it
was like in the nineties it was MTVS Fashion and
it was always kind of like edgy hip hop fashion.
But yeah, it was their fashion show. Okay, So what
happens in this like you know this like kind of
spoof version of that on the In Your Face Network
is it's this woman, she's the host of this show.

(01:10:56):
And she's like today we're in I think they're in
Compton and she's where in Compton? And you can buy
this this Bandanna. It's got red for crips and blue
for bloods or I don't even know if I have
the colors right, And she's like and it's only seventy yeah,
and it's made by Donna Carro and famously a bougee

(01:11:16):
white woman. I actually love that comment. It's like the
movie does try to do some nineties commentary of like
that was the vibe of the nineties, like corporations and
white rich people co opting like black folks and like
Latino folks and like like working class like fashion and
like making it a thousand dollars and then selling it

(01:11:37):
back to people exactly. Yeah. I thought that, like especially
for some reason, like the TV stuff especially, I thought
was really really effective with the I mean, even with
the Frasier's Dad Show, where it was very clearly like
parodying a lot of daytime TV where it was like,
you know, exploitative thing and tragic thing where you know,

(01:11:57):
he's like today we have this amazing child and and
someone with Alzheimer's disease and you're just like it, that
is clear like what they're trying to do. And then
I also thought it was like interesting that how when
on a writer is like duped by a TV psychic
and like that that was just a little montage of

(01:12:20):
like predatory TV scams of the nine nineties because it
was like TV College, TV Psychics and like just little
ways that the culture of this time preyed on desperation
and loneliness, which is like there's a different generational reboot
of how to prey on desperation and loneliness. And I
thought it was like kind of a fun comment on it. Oh,

(01:12:44):
the TV Psychic scene has my favorite line of the
movie where when her roommate is coming to talk to
her about the phone bill over the phone, the TV
Psychic is like, Laney, I said that you're in great danger, dangerous,
And then and then Jean in Gruffalo is like, we
have a four phone. What the fuck it's from this
nine number? And then you just see when on a
writer like very slowly hanging up the phone. That's comedy.

(01:13:10):
I thought it was good. Yeah, Like it's like part
of the reason that the ending to this movie bumps
me out so much is I feel like there's so
many like strong threads of like ways this movie could
have gone. Characters, they could have expanded on more topics,
they could have taken a little further, because it's like
with Troy and Laney, like they're both shitty in their ways.

(01:13:30):
Troy is by far worse, And I would hope that
if Laney had done what I wanted her to do
at the end and just like got her shipped together
and figured out who she was as a person and
worked a retail job and wasn't a total snob, I'm
sure that these would be issues that hopefully would course
correct later in her life. Troy maybe permanently broken. But

(01:13:51):
like how Troy's central, Like it feels like what they're
trying to ask with that character, I don't know, let
me know what you think, because I was like, it
seems like Troy is trying to do the thing where
he's like saying something valid, but his methods are shitty
and like don't make any difference for anything. Where it's
like he wants to exist outside of capitalism. He resents capitalism,

(01:14:15):
he resents that you are expected, you know, certain things
are expected of you to exist in a society and
be considered someone worthy of respect. A valid question and
like fair, but like he sucks and like he's useless
and he's mean, and then in the end he's kind

(01:14:36):
of like rewarded by getting everything he ever wanted. So
why I mean, because he's a white guy who had
a safety net the whole time. That's why I like,
at one point it's like a throwaway thing. But I
think that Lena's dad set up a cushy job interview
for Troy that he didn't go to, and I think

(01:14:57):
he didn't go to it because he was like hanging
out with her. I think that like her dad definitely
is like I said, I'm a job interview and he
couldn't even bother to show up. And so you're right
that it's it's as someone who is a former like
slacker knew a lot of like slacker types that were
anti capitalists. It's really easy to be that way when
you have a safety net, when people are looking out

(01:15:17):
for you and someone can make a call and get
you a job. And I think Troy is very good
at presenting his his rejection of all that stuff ideologically
on the outside, but not so good at acknowledging what
he actually has access to, which is not nothing. Right. Yeah,
And it's like Troy's life, I mean, his life would
become so much more difficult if Laney and Vicky weren't

(01:15:40):
constantly doing what he's yelling at them for all the time,
which is working so that they all have a place
to live, which Troy is not contributing to and is
in fact actively hostile to them for like working so
that he has somewhere to yell at them at. Like
it's just it's so messy, and it's like the movie
seems to know that, but then the ending it's it's wild.

(01:16:02):
It's wild. I also find it fascinating and maybe this
is some irony that the movie loves to talk about.
But like the the like paradox of this being a
movie about characters who are like, oh my god, selling
out is like the worst thing you can do, and
like it might be tempting, but ultimately your loser if

(01:16:26):
you sell out. But then this was also a studio movie,
and Ben Stiller said something like it's a strange thing
because it was a studio movie about the ideas of
commodification and descent or whatever. And the idea that it
was a universal movie, meaning like the movie studio universal,

(01:16:47):
a universal movie that was really sort of independent minded,
was something that we struggled with. So it's like the
same studio that released Jurassic Park the year before was
also releasing reality Bites and clearly made a bunch of
script changes, and like all, they had all these studio notes,
and it's probably the reason that Lelaney ends up with

(01:17:08):
Troy at the end, because that's kind of like the
more like right gretty romantic choice for her to make,
which I mean, I was glad that at least, like
the major players and this who worked in this movie,
I'll seem aware of that because it's like it's a
pointed to just truly like what are you going to do?
Like what the like? Because all of the you know,

(01:17:31):
like they're all of the resources are in the hands
of big studios, like, right, what the funk are you
gonna do? And it it's I don't know it. Have
either of you ever seen SLC Punk? I have not
know I have. I've seen it many times. Do you
like it? Um? I liked it when I was in
high school. I rewatched it maybe two years ago. I

(01:17:51):
actually think about it. I like not to kind of
spoil the ending. I don't know if you'll have like
a philosop I was. I wanted to talk about the
ending to SELC Punk because I think I like it better. Yeah,
the the ending is great because it's like, oh, this
whole time, all of that ideology was BS and you
sold that in the end and turns out you just
like we're a poser like everybody else, and that's fine.
It's called growing up. The end, like, I kind of

(01:18:13):
love that. Yeah, like so, I the only time I've
seen Slski punk I was on Molly Nights, but I
really loved him. But but the ending, in spite of
me being high out of my mind, the ending really
stuck with me as one of the more like, you know,
it doesn't feel good to watch, but it is an

(01:18:33):
honest depiction of like. And also it's a Matthew Willard
joint Caitlin, Oh, I I've unfamiliar. I just have yet
to succeeded. And unlike Reality Bites, it's a true indie movie.
It made like two dollars and it like premiered at
Sundance And but but yeah, like the the way, I
was sort of wondering if Reality Bites would take that

(01:18:53):
sort of option where it's like, you know, it seems
inevitable that this grew at least you know, two or
three out of the four are gonna end up selling
out in the way that adults are forced to under
capitalism more often than not. But I was wondering how
self aware it's like that it didn't do it in

(01:19:14):
a very self aware because even in the like the
closing line of the movie, Laney is like, it's acknowledging
that Laney has used her privilege to get to where
she's at with Troy, because it's her doubt on the
phone who you know, like all four boomer criticism of
like look at this, you know how they opened the
movie with like your revolution, you know, you traded your

(01:19:35):
revolution for shoulder pads. Fair, fair criticism. But it's like
our characters are well on their way to doing the
same fucking thing by the end of the movie, but
it's not quite willing to like go there and admit
it in a way that s LC punk was like, yeah,
little or to suit Now he's uh, he just got
to the law school. He went to law school. He

(01:19:55):
went to play shaggy. He's a corporate stooge. I mean,
Lillard's taking that Scooby Money can't even blame. It's funny,
like we're like, okay, so in the universe of the film, nobody,
only certain people are allowed to sell out if if
the clock spins five years later, like are we to
believe that Troy is still under employed and like blowing

(01:20:19):
off job interviews and sort of intentionally getting fired. And
Lena is like, certainly they would have, like you would
have to get a job at some point, Like that's
life and life is unsustainable otherwise. Right, It's like he's
not gonna If there's one person who's not going to
singlehandedly dismantle American capitalism, it's Troy for Reality bite like

(01:20:40):
he's gonna have to do something at some point. And
I feel like such a like a mom saying that,
where I'm like, get your life together, young man. But
you know what I do starts a podcast. No, he
starts a podcast and we're a part of the problem. Yeah,
you think Troy from Reality, but it's wouldn't be fucking
podcast two he's got. He's probably got two podcasts he has.

(01:21:05):
Oh you know who he is. I know exactly who
he is. He is like the leftist podcaster who was
all like, oh, like class solidarity but makes three dollars
a year via Patreon, but you would never know it
because he talks about like class workfare every week in
the podcast. That's who he never volunteered a weaken his life. Yeah,
absolutely no. No. Oh, look, we're all a bunch of

(01:21:30):
fucking sellouts. We're a feminist podcast on the I Heart
Radio network. At the end of the day, if it's like, well, shit, fuck,
we're the end of SLC punk. Um, okay, yeah, does
anyone have anything else they want to talk about? It's
everything ahead that might have been it. Yeah, the same.
Does this movie pass the Bechtel test? It does. Yeah,

(01:21:54):
We've got We've got some conversations, We've got some various combinations.
It's a lot of Lelaney and Vicky I think is
most of the Bechtel test passing convos. But what about
that nipple scale, the famous flawless nipple scale where we
write the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples.

(01:22:16):
Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens,
I feel like it's maybe like a two or a
two and a half, just one of those kind of
split down the middle ones, or maybe it's less than that.
Let me talk through this. Um. I appreciate that this
is a movie, like written by a woman writing about

(01:22:37):
her own experiences. It's coming from a pretty privileged place
because at least the characters it's like, yeah, they're broke,
but they're broke in the way that white college graduates
from supportive middle class families working entry level jobs are
broke broke, not poor. Right, So it just feels gross

(01:22:59):
to make a movie where things like money and labor
and socioeconomic class are major themes of the movie, but
the movie only features educated, middle class white people. UM.
I do not like that the movie is predicated on
which of these two guys is she going to choose
because she has to pick one because hetero romance must prevail,

(01:23:25):
and then she picks the guy who has been actively
cruel to her throughout the entire movie. I hate that
for her. Um. There are some things I do like. Um,
there's some interesting satire. There is a queer character whose
queerness is normalized within the story, even though that character
gets the least amount of screen time in this version

(01:23:46):
of the story at least. Um, But it's you know,
queer representation that was I would say, generally more positive
than you would tend to find in this era. Um.
And yeah, as I think I like Trailed Off, But
it's a a woman writing this screenplay about her life,
about her experiences and her relationships. It seems like it

(01:24:06):
got studio notes to death almost uh seventy different drafts
kind of thing. But um, I don't know, it's just
have I come to any conclusion. No, I'm gonna give
it two nipples. I'll give one to one on a
writer because I do love Oneona, and I'll give the

(01:24:26):
other nipple to screenwriter Helen child Dress, who again has
been kind of like left out of the conversation about
this movie and like isn't given credit where credit is due. Yeah,
so there you have it. I'm gonna go two and
a half on this one. Maybe maybe I'm talented to
do three, but I I the the centering of the

(01:24:49):
relationship is just like so frustrating that I guess I'm
going to do too and a half. Um again, yes,
like this is yet another you know, quote on quote
generation to finding movie that solely focuses on you know,
middle class uh six white people. I do appreciate that
there is some different class backgrounds and discussion of class.

(01:25:11):
I feel like most movies like this, just like or
most you know, coming of age movies, class exists in
a complete and total void. So at least then that's
not the case. Um, this movie asks a lot of
interesting questions. I think that, you know, the answers are
really complicated because we also like our generation is not
going to have the answers and uh, you know gen
Z best of luck, but and then there's no more generations.

(01:25:36):
Uh So Ultimately, yeah, I think that this movie asks
a lot of interesting questions. It challenged me in some ways,
it frustrated me and others, and uh it made me
want to rewatch SLC Punk um. But I do appreciate
that this movie, um is you know, written by a
woman who has lived out a similar experience. Um. I

(01:25:57):
think that her career since is very indicative of how disposable, um,
women creatives can be in Hollywood, especially during this era.
I'm glad that there has been some motion against that
since it doesn't seem to be something that happens quite
as much, and that there are a lot of women
in high positions in this production. You have a woman
editor of a woman writer, you have a woman producer.

(01:26:20):
But yeah, I don't know if this this Honestly, this
movie is like challenging for for me, and uh, you know,
being an adult sellout is fucking embarrassing and it's also
unfortunately kind of a part of being an American and
it Uh I guess that that's all I have to

(01:26:42):
say about it. Uh yeah, So I'll go two and
a half and I'm giving them all to Helen because, um,
it's ridiculous that justice for Helen event Stiller is getting
credit for ship shoot it. Yeah yeah, bridget Yeah, I'm
going First of all, I love that we're just explicitly
identify playing as adults sellouts, and this feminist adults sell

(01:27:03):
out is going two and a half nipples, and I
completely agree, mostly for Helen children. It's like justice for her.
I had no idea about the ways that she was
sort of written out of her own experience, and that
just sucks that this is a movie about her life
that is so accredited to Ben Stiller, a man, that
she just gets written out of it. Like I was

(01:27:24):
googling pictures, it was difficult to even find pictures of
her with the cast, and like, this was her story,
So most of those nipples are going to her. Also,
Jeanine Garoffalo, I have a soft spot for je Garoffalo
supporting casting. Yeah, in this movie, I once loved it
as a youth, watching it as an adult, it's I agree,

(01:27:45):
it's challenging, but yeah, I I like a movie that
makes it attempt to show queerness in the nineties in
a way that it's not so traumatic and Steve Zon
doesn't die or something like I Think for the time,
I'm gonna go too and a a half of fair. Yeah, Bridget,
thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for returning.

(01:28:07):
Come back any time. Oh it's always a blast. Anytime
you're you're about to get sick of me? Impossible, can't happen,
won't happen? Tell us all about your your new show
on cool Zone. Oh yes. So Internet Hate Machine is
an exploration of kind of an unpleasant topic, which is
the online harassment of women, specifically black women, but women

(01:28:27):
of color in general, and how I believe that is
connected to our current sort of political and social healthscape.
I guess I'll say, uh, and so yeah, it's it's
but it's I swear it's not dark. It's not a
start of it sounds, but yeah, it's an exploration of
the ways that all of these things online, the way
that black women have been treated, have gotten us to

(01:28:48):
a place where those same tactics and those same ills
impact all of us and really make it hard for
us to have a functioning democracy. So if that sounds
like something that you're interested in exploring, please check it out.
The new season or the first season drops October. So excited,
thank you, thank you so much for coming back. We'll

(01:29:08):
be we'll be plugging the hill out of the show
and anything else you want to plug. As far as
your social media handles, yeah, you can follow me on
Instagram at bridget Marie in d C or on Twitter
at bridget Marie. And I have my own long running,
long running two years podcast, podcast World. I'm I'm proudly
claiming that's a long time. Two years. That's a long

(01:29:29):
time called there are No Girls on the Internet. Please
check it out amazing and you can follow us on
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(01:29:53):
bonus episodes. You can also get our merch at t
public dot com slash the backtel Pass. This is such
a funny way to end the episode after reality bites
or like in conclusion, capitalism our exclusion. Give us five
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(01:30:13):
platforms that are actively running the world. Um, you know,
or we can just go fund ourselves whatever you want. Uh.
On that note, let's go watch Fraser's dad's TV show. Honestly,
I would watch it if I had pneumonia. Yeah, let's
let's do it. Okay, Bye,

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