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May 30, 2024 126 mins

This week, we're playing a little game and unlocking an episode from the Patreon aka Matreon on the movie Saw!

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephy Beast, start changing it
with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Jamie, let's play a game.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
What the game is? I just woke up. I don't
know where.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
You have to play the game and play by all
the rules. And the game that you're playing is releasing
a Matreon episode about Saw, which will be the inciting
incident that we have to cover all the rest of
the Saw movies on the Bechdel Cast. And if we
don't do that within six months, jicks I will kill us.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Usually, I feel like if there's one thing Jigsaw loves
is to chop off a leg. It's his favorite. It's
one of you, it's one of his favorites. Welcome to
the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jigsaw, Jamie whoa.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
My name is Caitlin Sawante.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
WHOA?

Speaker 1 (01:10):
No, I like it, Sae. Let's let's fucking go.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
And it's true. Today we're playing a game, the game
being unlocking a Matreon episode.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Because the way that the characters and Saw movies have
to unlock little chains and and shackles and boxes.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
And uh yeah, we do this every so often. And
if you enjoy this episode, it's just Caitlin and I
were talking about Saw. Obviously. It was recorded last year
obviously obviously, And if you like the sort of like
more casual tone of this episode, that's what you can
expect from our Matreon hot plug incoming. Yes, we have

(01:58):
a Matreon Patreona slash Bechtel cast where every month Caitlin
and I based on a theme that always definitely makes
a lot of sense. We talk about two movies. So
if you go over there right now and you enjoyed
this episode, you can go and get over one hundred
and fifty episodes that are not on our main feed.

(02:21):
And it's only five bucks a month. Come on, a bargain,
Come on.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
So, yes, this is our Saw episode that we released
around two years ago. But since two oh my goodness,
it was your birthday. You did it for your birthday
month in August. I believe I was right to coming
up on two years ago.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, so quickly, before we get to the episode, let's
do a little bit of a housekeeping. This episode is
a little more informal, So in case you haven't listened
to the show before, weird place to start, but hey, welcome,
This is our podcast where we talk about your favorite
movies using an intersection feminist lens, but this time it's

(03:02):
like a spiky little lens that could kill you.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Oh no, yeah, oh no. The Saw test, where if
you don't play jigsauce game, he'll chop off your limbs.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, he'll do something really terrible to you because he
is not an ally, which is actually true. I feel
like I've seen people be like, actually, Jigsaw is an
ally because he hired a woman, and you're like, that's
not how that works. Jigsaw is lawless, he's anti everyone. Yes,

(03:39):
he's anarchy, he's chaos.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's true. So Jigsaw plays by the Saw test. We
play by the Bechdel test, except we don't even really
do that except for talk about it for three minutes
every episode, and then the rest of the time is
us having serious discourse but.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Also goofing sorriest discourse.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Whoa, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
What if Jigsaw had an air horn? That would be
so that would have to be like and then we
can't make any more movies, if we give Jigsaw, okay, anyways,
what's the Bechdel test.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
It's a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test
that first appeared in queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel's comic in
nineteen eighty five, Dikes to Watch out For And it
was intended as a bit as a goof. And there
are many versions of the test. The one that we
use is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender

(04:34):
have names? Do those characters speak to each other? And
is there conversation about something other than a man? And
then another little caveat we give is is it a
narratively meaningful conversation which we prefer over like throwaway dialogue
that might pass the Bechdel test?

Speaker 1 (04:53):
And that's where they get you, and that's where they
get you. And we'll leave it at that. But before
we cut to the episode, because and I are very
invested in Saw, Yeah, the franchise spoiler alert, we're talking
about Saw because we really like it and it's been
almost two years, so let's just like rapid fire some
Saw updates. I think the first thing that comes to

(05:15):
mind is we just saw Saw the musical together that's right.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
I saw the musical on Broadway, and by Broadway, I
mean a very small theater in Los Angeles, California. Ever
heard of it?

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Very small space, impossible to pe mid show.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yes, And that's why I missed the last like twenty
minutes of the show because I had to piece about
I was so close to pissing my pants and so
I had to like dive over a row of people
as like the show's climax was climaxing.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
And and it was climaxing because it was a very horny.
It was a parody musical, so it's like horny and
queer and like it was great.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
I highly recommend if you live in LA. It goes
up in New York, and I believe a few other
cities around the US.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
San Diego, like it's it seems to be making the rounds.
If it's still making the rounds and it's in your town,
you gotta go see saw the musical.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
And I need to see it again because again I
missed the last twenty minutes because I had to go pee,
and then I didn't feel comfortable coming back in because
I felt like it would have been disruptive to the show.
Because it was a rather small theater. So I was like, well,
I'll just have to guess at what happens. I'm guessing
someone saw the off.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, it doesn't severely deviate from the narrative, but like,
don't take my word for it. Ye, Seesaw the musical again,
Seesaw the Musical. Okay, your turn for a Saw update.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Okay. I dressed up as jig Saw for Halloween. We
did you the most recent Halloween that we had brag. Oh,
and I went to a party that was within bicycling
distance of my apartment, so I wasn't a tricycle and
that was my horrible blunder. But I did write a
bicycle to the party. So I'm like, rolling up as Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
I did not know that. That's so funny. Yeah, I forgot.
I forgot because didn't we pick you up from that party?
Or I'm trying to remember.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
It was a different one. Wow, because we just I
get invited to so many freaking parties.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Oh yeah, my others Saw update is that And you
can watch it right now in HBO Max, unless by
the time you listen to this HPO Max has.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Deleted more stuff. But I was a writer and producer
on a show called Teenage Ethanasia. It's a great show,
two great seasons, and in our second season, I pitched
and successfully executed a character named jug Saw. And I
think by the name you can sort of guess what
Jugsaw's whole deal is, girl.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Jigsaw jug is in like jugs is in, big old hawkers.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, big old honkers. Yeah, I mean I would say,
I can't say anything else. I refuse to say anything else.
Let me just grab the name of the episode in
case you need to go watch jug Saw. She has
a whole story. Come on, trust me, we've been doing
this podcast. You think I'm not gonna write Jugsaw a

(08:17):
complicated backstory and a problem with her mother, of course
I am.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Of course, from now on, all stories are about Jugsaws
and their moms.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
And their moms. It's drama. Okay. So the name of
it is Viva la Flappanista, Season two, episode six of
Teenage Euthanasia. Go check it out. Amazing, and just check
out the whole show. It's fun. We got canceled.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
That's fine, Sorry about it?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Whatever the Saw episode? Do you have any other Saw updates?

Speaker 3 (08:53):
I have two?

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh? Okay, Well, I guess we also didn't talk about
Saw X.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, yeah, that's one of them. So since this episode
was released on the Matreon, Saw X aka Saw ten
came out. We both saw in theaters, not together unfortunately
saw We saw Saw X.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Now what did you? I don't remember your review of
Saw X.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
I thought it was bad, but I still loved every
second of it. Like it was not a well written movie.
I think it was one of the weaker installments in
the French highs. But I did pay money. Well, no,
I probably didn't pay money. I went to see it
with my amc A list stubs membership. I know I
always because we come to this place for Saw for magic.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
You know, these days Nicole's watching She's watching Austin Butler Elvis.
I saw her watching Lady Gaga Star is born the
other day. Oh they have even more. They just keep
switching out her movies. WHOA Okay, I also saw Saw X.
I also thought it was maybe not so awesome, sauce
so like, but like a not Saw. Some Saw movie

(10:05):
is still better than or. I'm gonna enjoy myself more
than ninety percent of movies because it's just really fun
to like show up in a movie rubbing your hands together,
being like, now, what is he gonna get up to?
And it's always something. He's always gonna get it up
to something. So I thought it was good conclusion. I

(10:26):
thought it was an awesome, perfect movie. I love Tobin Bell.
I love that he's still sawing after all these years.
He's eighty one. Whoa yeah, so he is like he
is in it to win it. I hope we have
a lot more Saw movies with Tobin Bell. Same, okay,
do you have any more? That's all my songs?

Speaker 3 (10:44):
It's okay, yes, my final one is that. So our
mutual friend Briant and I often watch movies together and
we kept being like, should we watch a Saw movie?
And we would go and see if it was available
to stream anymore, and most of them are only available
to rent, and so you pay three ninety nine to

(11:04):
rent it. We're like, Okay, there's got to be a
more cost effective way to do this, because I don't
want to spend three ninety nine on like ten Saw movies.
So what I did instead is I bought one of
those like Blu Ray bundles with the first eight Saw
movies on Blu Ray, and it was.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Only like it just makes sense.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
It was like twelve dollars, So that's violent. I know
it's kind of an insult to the Saw franchise, but
I made the investment of a lifetime and bought this
eight Saw movie bundle on Blu Ray, and Brian and
I are working our way through it. You're welcome to
join us at any time.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Jamie, please. I think you're out of town. I think
I was out of town when that started. Where did
you guys leave off?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Well, you have so far only watched Saw two together.
Oh so there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh oh so the doors wide open?

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, okay, until Jigsaw slams it says.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Game over Sam, Sam, Okay, well, yeah, I'm in. I'm
joining in Saw three a second your home.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Okay, great, I can't wait. But yeah, those are all
my Saw updates. And so what we also do generally
when we release a Matreon episode to the main feed
is we'll just kind of edit it a bit, because
we're sometimes matreoning out a little too hard in different

(12:27):
points of the episodes.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
A lot of sidebars, not like what we've been doing
for the last ten minutes, which is all very on topic,
all feminism.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Well, it's on topic for Saw at least, So yes,
we'll edit out some chunks here and there. Some of
it's like references to something that's like a year or
too old that kind of dates the episode, so I
kind of I try to get rid of as much
of that as I can. So I cut out a
little bit at the beginning where I pretend to be
Jigsaw and I say that we have two hours to

(12:57):
finish the episode, or else the episode will be too
long and the consequences will be dire. So when you
hear references to that later on, that is me doing
that hilarious little bit.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Why don't you just do it now?

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Well, okay, tell us Jamie what it's me Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Oh no, I'm also Jigsaw, but but you're in charge.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
And it's also we're playing the game for ourselves. Oh,
we have to complete this episode within two hours, or
else the episode will be too long and it might
be annoying for some listeners.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Oh no, we've never made an episode too long. It
will be a new experience. Yeah, and we better get started.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, we better. Oh and then right when we cut in,
is us talking I guess questioning if Saw one is
actually a good movie or not. So this is where
we will I know, how dare we even question it?

Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's as close as we get to being edge lords.
We're like, is I have one even good? I regret it?
I regret it.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah it's great, and you'll hear us say many things
to that effect. But yeah, that's where we cut in.
So enjoy the episode.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Saw is Oh no, now I'm getting nervous. I was like,
I thought the first Saw was like pretty well written, Yes,
but I refuse to acknowledge any of the plot holes
in Saw.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Okay, here are my gripes with the writing of Saw,
although I think most of my gripes have to do
with the acting, which is atrocious from most of the
characters or the actors.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Who is your least who is your least fing? I mean,
I feel like we we have to make an exception
there for the legend the icon Tobin Bell as Jigsaw.
His performance is kind of untouchable, sure, and I can't
really be hearing anything negative about it, But everyone else
is doing a horrible job. Who do you think is

(15:15):
doing the worst job.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
I think the guy who is clearly not an actor
and who co wrote this screen or wrote.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
The screenplay Lee Wannell, Yes, I think he's doing his
house we Stanell Leannel. But yeah, he is not very
He's not a very good actor, is he.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
He's not. But Carrie, you will.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Oh my god, Elle. I listened to the hat. I
didn't finish it. I'll be full disclosure, but I listened
to Uh. I watched this movie last week and then
I watched half of it with the commentary track with
Lee Wannell and James Wan And it's so cute because
they're such good friends. But they say Harry el's ellis,

(16:02):
elsls ols, wait os, but they're Australian, so it could
be a pronunciation thing. It tripped right off the tongue
for them. It was very easy for them. They're like,
carry elwis. The thing about him is he's really British.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
And that's true. And you can tell that he's a
British person because he's letting his accent slip through on
almost every word.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Oh, they're fighting for their lives with the accents. I
don't know why they I don't know why they had
to be canonically American, because Lee Wennell is Australian and
once you know that, you're just like, oh, he's like
criking out the whole time, like just let them speak
in their natural accents. And it's so wild because you
know that, like Lee Wanne literally made that choice for

(16:42):
them on purpose. Yeah, they were young though, Like it's
so wild. Like James Wan is a like a middle
schooler when he directs his he's so like he's like
twenty six, but that's like wild.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, they're like pretty fresh out of film school, right
because they because James wan and Lee Wonnell, I feel
like also there's like.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
Is it wonle Wannel? Is it stanyel Wannel at all?

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Well, I'm trying to do like a benefit thing where
it's like love that we're kind of marrying the two
names together as just like Wonnle love that. Flee okay hello,
oh and Flee freaking loved it too.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
And you know that's gonna that that's gonna be loud
and that's gonna pick up. Yeah, you know that. Sorry,
he's stressed out because there's been someone next door just
absolutely hammering something for about six days.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Do you think it's someone building a saw room? Do
you think it's Jigsaw's production designer? That is like one
of my I'm sure that there's either a very good
or very horrible sketch about that somewhere, like who's setting
up Jigsaw's traps?

Speaker 1 (17:53):
You know that they tried that on Mad TV. I
would I would bet money on it.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
And if not, Jamie, you just wrote a sketch.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Oh god, it's almost like it was almost too easy.
But yes, they're so young when they make this movie.
I just think it's beautiful to set James Wand on
his journey to you know, being one of my favorite
directors ever.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
He Oh my gosh, he's the best. What was the
other movie of his we covered on the show, Aquaman?
Oh my gosh, I always forget that that was his movie.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Me too. I meant, I always forget that he's Aquaman man.
But he is Aquaman man. But but yeah, he Okay,
so his directorial resume is pretty wild. I'm just gonna
rattle some stuff off please Saw Saw three Okay, Okay,
he only directed Saw and Saw three, which not coincidentally

(18:50):
are ones. Saw two is pretty iconic as well. Saw
one through three are good, and then so the rest
are also good.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
I've I'll get into this when we talk about our
histories with the Saw franchise. But I've seen way more
Saw movies than you might expect.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
I'm very excited.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
I'll tell the full story.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Oh I can't wait. But okay, so sorry, Saw Saw three, Insidious,
The Conjuring, in Citious, Chapter two, Furious Seven, question Mark,
The Conjuring Too.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Oh yeah, Fast and the Furious Seven. He directed one
of the Fast and the Furious movies.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
I did not know that. Yeah, I knew Aquaman, I
knew the Conjuring franchises. All him. Malignant one of our
faves from last year, Maignant. It was the we got
a comfortableness of twenty twenty one one. Yeah, I think
we should cover that this October. Malignant was kind of

(19:50):
perfect film critible. I didn't really have any negative thoughts. Well,
actually I had a lot of negative thought, but like
in a good way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't have
a single critical thought. I was like, all I thought.
All I thought on a loop was he did it again? Anyways?
But enough about how I was essayam with James Wand
even though I forgot one of his biggest movies in

(20:12):
the space of the last minute. What's your history with
the Saw franchise?

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Okay, I saw Saw Oh, I used to make a joke,
and this might even be something that if I like
dug through my Twitter I could find. But it's like
a little dialogue where someone says, like not a little
blog like person a sees I've seen Saw too, And
then I respond by saying, I saw Saw too too.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Okay, that's good.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
That's a good joke if I do say so myself. Okay,
So there's no way around it. That joke rules. I
saw Saw right when it came out. I don't think
in theaters though, But like is ah, but I don't
remember it was two thousand and four. What month did
it come out.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Let's see, let's see.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
It was October. I think it was like Halloween season.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yea makes sense. It's pretty scary. I mean I would
say it, yeah, pretty scary.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
So I would have just started college. I would have
been like a month into college, and I feel like
I was like probably too stressed out to go to
the movies. So I don't think I saw it in
the theaters. I think I would have remembered that.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, I mean I don't think that. I don't think
that this movie would have calmed you down.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
No, but I saw it on DVD as soon as
it came out on DVD, probably a few months later,
because I remember like all the buzz about it, and
so I saw it and I remember thinking the twist
at the very end when Jigsaw gets up off the
floor the dead body you thought was a dead body

(21:52):
the whole time he starts to stand up. I was like, Oh,
my freaking gosh, the biggest whist in cinema history.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
We're not saying, oh my freaking god, it was. It
is good. It's one of the it's one of my
favorite twists ever.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
It's still unexpected. It's it's truly Do.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
You think Tobin Bell was in the room the whole time?
Is he that good? Oh?

Speaker 3 (22:16):
He's like, I'm committing to this. I am in character
all It's he's like method acting.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
This may have been in nine thousand movies, but his
most iconic role is Saw. Interestingly, he lives in Massachusetts.
He's like the king of a town in Massachusetts. Whoa
and then they have to like fly him out. They're like, oh,
you want Jigsaw. He just lives in whatever Jigsaw mansion
in Massachusetts. One of this is this information comes from

(22:45):
a very credible source aka my brother's friend.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Okay, all right, okay, I.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Was talking to my brother cashing up with my brother's friend.
Side note, my brother's friends are getting hot. Don't love that?

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Oh okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
But but he was like, did you know that Jigsaw
is local? And I was like, relevant to my interests?
So continue?

Speaker 3 (23:06):
Okay. So I saw Saw shortly after it was released,
and I remember thinking it was pretty awesome, especially oh
my gosh, like the music is Jigsaw's standing up and
it's like ding d D.

Speaker 5 (23:19):
D D D.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Iconic.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
John Williams could never in his life John Williams found
dead in a ditch after hearing it being from Saw. Unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
So I took it upon myself to continue to see
the Saw movies. I'm not sure if I ever saw
any of them in theaters, but there was a span
of time where I was, I mean, and it was
a long time, and longer than maybe anyone else was
getting Netflix DVDs delivered to their mailbox.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yes, that's true. You were getting Netflix DVD's while this
show was airing.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, I since stopped, but I was getting them well
into probably like twenty sixteen. I mean, you know, Blessed
twenty seventeen, maybe even so blessed. I saw Saw two, two,

(24:18):
and saw three, and saw four and saw five. I
think I stopped at five.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
I think I stopped at six, but I but then
I was reading the description for six, and I was like,
honestly I could have seen this. But also right, my
recall after three gets a little fuzzy. I had to
read through some of the things. And then did you
see Spiral? I did not watch Spiral.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
I did not see Spiral. I wanted to, but it
came and went in theaters in like a blip, and
I completely missed it.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
And it was also, I think, still not a great
I think it came out like right before people were
actually comfortable going back to movie theaters. Well maybe that's
I think it was like there was a COVID timing
where they are just such a streaming kind of thing.
I didn't watch it. I heard its actually very very good,
but I read I read a piece about it today

(25:11):
and now I'm like, oh, I do I have so
many SAW tabs open right now? My god. I read
an article on a screen rant that I thought was
quite good by a writer named Cathol Gunning. Also a
great name, but I guess that the deal with Spiral,
my understanding is a Jigsaw copycat killer, and they're trying

(25:34):
to flip the franchise so that this new copycat killer
is targeting cops, which is a good modern like I think,
a better you know take. But then but in doing so,
and this is a small gripe, I don't think it's
a bad thing that Spiral is killing cops. And you
can put me on the record there, but but basically

(25:55):
it was done with the ethos of like, well, Jigsaw
never killed I'm like Jigsaw spent whole movies killing cops.
Jigsaw tortured detective Donnie Wahlberg, corrupt cop.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Jigsaw slashes the throat of Danny Glover cop.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Jigsaw famously does not like cops. Jigsaw said a cap
but he also said all innocent people are bastards also,
so he's just sort of like, he's like, all cops
are bastards, but only because they fall under the umbrella
of people. All people are apab except my wife. Okay,

(26:35):
so kind of Jigsaw's approach.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
So I saw so many of the saws up to
five maybe six, because I remember being like Caitlin, what
are you even doing, but I kept watching them because
each Saw movie has the most unexpected twist you've ever
seen in any movie.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Like they just know wow, they keep doing it. I
know they keep movie after and like the movies do get.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Worse and worse.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Sure, as with any franchise I like, horror franchises are
commonly associated as often getting much worse and more convoluted,
But I don't think it gets as bad. If we're
doing pound for pound next to other horror franchises, it
could have been much worse.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
I mean the Halloween franchise, Oh my God, the most
recent two after they tried to reboot it. The most
recent Halloween movie is one of the worst movies I've
ever seen in my entire life.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
I didn't see the second one. I thought the first
one was fine and I was like, oh, it's I liked.
I liked hearing Jamie Lee Curtis say trauma. And other
than that, I was and I love Danny McBride right,
I love David Gordon Green, and I love Judy Greer,
but I didn't like the movie.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
That one was like okay ish to me, but the
second one one in their reboot series, Pep Peepee pooh pooh.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Wow. Yeah, disappointing, and there's still one more and no
one's got to see it.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
But Saw, even though the storytelling, you know, gets a
bit wonky, you know, the movies decline in quality, the
quality of the twists stays top notch, a great So
I felt compelled to keep watching Saw movies because I
was like, oh my gosh, there's no way they're going

(28:29):
to top this twist in the movie prior to this one,
and then they do. It's just like, oh, so I
am a Although I hadn't seen the first Saw since
like two thousand and five, and I remembered very little
about it except for Jigsaw standing up at the very
end being like, hey, it's me Grabe over and then

(28:52):
you're like, so that in a very long story, is
my history with the sawt franchise, Jamie, what about you?

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Oh? I was a late comer to the Saw franchise.
I was not I mean, as I've said on the
show before, I was not a horror girl growing up.
I've become a horror girl as an adult. My franchise.
So I only had like, I don't know what this
logic was, but I only had room for one horror
franchise in my formative years. Sure, and I was a

(29:28):
Final Destination girl. I didn't have room for Saw. It
was a hardline final Destination girl. Started seeing them with
Final Destination three, iconically the Tanning Bed one, Slash, the
roller Coaster one. It's awesome. And then I proceeded to
see the rest in theaters and loved those movies. Did

(29:49):
they hold up not even a little bit, nowhere close
to Saw, I will say, but there was one my
first serious relationship in high school, Thank you so much.
So it'd been in two thousand and nine or ten,
and story time, I've probably told you this story before

(30:13):
and then sometimes I forgot. I'm like, oh, people are
listening to this, so I do have to say it again.
So in high school, I worked at a skating rink.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Ice skating or roller skating.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Ice skating, thus the Sambony culture. Well, also, my dad
is a hockey reporter. Grew up around Zamponi's a lot
of formative experiences around Zamboni's. But yeah, I worked at
the snack bar and then on Friday nights I had
to work in this skate like high schoolers would hand
do their stinky shoes and then you had to give
them skates. And it was all my classmates, and it

(30:46):
was maybe traumatizing and humiliating because people would really delight
in giving Jamie their stinky shoes while they were going
on dates with my crushes, and I had to smell
their shoes nasty. Anyways, I'm over it though. So anyways,
had a crush on a boy who his name is Steven.

(31:11):
I've literally made shows about him. So anyways, he came
to the skating rink one day and we were not
yet dating, and he was like very sweet, awkward high
school boy and like tipped me one dollar and I
was like, wow, oh my god, what I'm bad at
this job. And then he was like, hey, I don't know,

(31:32):
like have you seen the Saw movies? And I was
like no, I haven't seen them, and he was like,
oh well. I was just thinking, if you ever want
to come over my house or something like we can
watch the Saw movies or I don't know, and I
was like okay, and then whenever later I went to
his house and thought he spent five Saw movies, five

(31:55):
whole Saw movies, no pea breaks getting the nerve up
to kiss me. I was there I got there at like, wait,
one pm. Yeah, and it was like ten at night.
And then we finally kissed. But we watched five Saw
movies in a row. We did take a pee break.
I was being dramatic, but like, but we wave.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
You marathoned five Saw movies in one day.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, and then and then and then I got a kiss.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
I mean, perfect day.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
It was kind of an awesome day in the end. Honestly,
by the end, I was a little by the time
he put in because he had all of them on DVD.
It was a weird Ultimately, it was a weird date,
but it was very sweet that it took someone five
Saw movies to give you a little kiss.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
But yeah, it takes me five minutes into a Saw
movie to give someone a kiss these days.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
I mean I would I wouldn't even get to the twist,
but yeah, in this case. So anyway, I saw all
five and one day, and then I just kept revisiting
them over the years. I think I saw six. At
one point. I definitely fell off the Saw franchise. I
don't think I'm alone there.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
So wait, how many are there?

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Now? Oh? Boy, let's see, because I think that there's
through They're like the titles are confusing. Wait, let's see. Okay,
So we have Saws one through six. Then you have
Saw three D, which is technically Saw seven, and that
one I don't think i've seen, but i've heard is
quite bad. Then there's Jigsaw, which is supposed to be

(33:26):
the worst one and that's like an origin story question Mark.
And then there's Spiral, which is a post Jigsaw copycat
killer and that's the one with Chris Rock.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Right, Okay, I don't know. Jigsaw was on my radar
as something that existed.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
He is one of the Hollywood reporters stars to watch.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
It was on the you know, like eight Saw movies
that you can't miss. Saw three D. I had no
idea was a thing.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
They did the same thing with Final Destination I supposed
to say Fatal Attraction. What. Yeah, they did the same thing.
I think that that was just like during the three
D boom in the early twenty tens, like after Avatar
came out, they're like, oh, everything successful needs to be
three D now, and they all kind of sucked, including Avatar.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Right, Okay, So there's Saws one through six, and then
Saw three D, Jigsaw, Spiral. Yeah, so that is nine
Saw movies total.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
In the Sauna verse.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, the Sauna verse.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
I think it's I hope they make more. They gotta
make more. Sometimes you're like, kill the franchise. Enough is enough.
I can't imagine getting to a plant like I probably
won't see them, but I would be sad if they
stopped making them.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, I'm now tempted to for Halloween this year do
a Saw marathon.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Ah, that would be so fun. Oh oh, we would
have what a time. We'd have what a time? We
watch songs and then we would have to kiss after
the fifth one, just because I don't know how else
to act after five Saw movie.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
I mean, consistency is important. So yes, I consent, thank you.
Uh yeah, let's let's do it. I'll have a Snathan yay.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Oh okay, So our history was it's hard, Like, I
think we'll try to stick to the first movie. There
are like certain elements of Jigsaw that I feel like
you can't not discuss further installment because you find out
I mean Jigsaw. Look, do I agree with the actions
he took? No? Did he have some points? I think so,

(35:49):
I think he had some points. Now did he need
to lash out like that? No, that's I had this
whole jokey premise that I was going to try to
start the episode with by being like Jigsaw's male privilege.
What where does this guy get off thinking he can
just set up all these elaborate little games that take

(36:11):
twenty seven days to set up canonically according to the
production design department, and then start killing people. That's patriarchy
and actions.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
But see, my version of that is like, you know
how like Viola Davis's Instagram feed is just a lot
of like very like inspirational or like mid, hey are
you struggling, Like then remember this these five things to
help you, you know, get through the day, or just like.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
I love very much like Instagram.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
It's great, yeah, and it's just very like healing and
like I want to help you. And then Jigsaw, his
whole thing is like he seems to want to help
people or like show them how to be appreciative, but
he's doing it in the most violent way possible, and
I'm like, that's toxic masculinity. You know.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Literally, he's like he is like I don't see people
practicing gratitude very much, better kill them, Like it's he ultimately,
you know, it's we hear at the back at Bechdel
Cast Industries cannot endorse the actions of one John Kramer,
Like that is not okay. No, and we want to

(37:28):
go on the record to say that was not okay
what John Kramer slash Jigsaw did. But did he look
good doing it? Kind of indisputably yes, did he sound
good doing it?

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Oh my gosh, Jigsaw's voice.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Don't get me started. Do doo dooo do doo dooo
doo doo dooo. Tobin Bell, who plays Jigsaw. Okay, so
for a Massachusetts local, as we've learned, I want I
wanted to confirm. I didn't want I didn't want to
speak out of turn. It's Weymouth, Weymouth, Massachusetts, Okay, A
good town, A good town, I think. But he so

(38:03):
he's like one of the he's like an iconic character
actor who eventually became best known for being Jigsaw, which
is incredible. But I'm trying to think of another example
of this where he like came up with a ton
of like prestige actors and like he studied like the
Strasburg method in New York and he's like he's like

(38:24):
very classically trained. He did Meisner he did all of
the random acting things that I know zero point one
percent about, But he was like on Broadway. He came
up with Ellen Burston and Jessica Tandy. He like came
up with all these kind of legends, did small character
parts and then didn't pop off until his sixties when

(38:48):
he began to play the iconic role of Jigsaw. So
it was a role he was born to play. He's
a lifetime member of the Actress I just love that
Jigsaw is a lifetime actor member of the Actress Studio.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
That's like, yeah, and you know what else, That's the
type of thing that on her Instagram, Viola Davis would
be like, Hey, if you're worried that, you just like
haven't quite made it in your career yet. Tobin Bell
didn't become Jigsaw until he's.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Sixty two years old. Don't stop dreaming me. Honestly, I
was thinking about this because I just had my LA
anniversary and I was like, Oh, what if me seven
years ago knew what I would be doing now? And
I'm like, hmmm, I would kind of be on the fence.
And that's how that's how I think that might be
the unintentional reaction of like, well, if you work really

(39:40):
hard for forty years, one day you can be Jigsaw.
And I think I would be like I might just
like have a family.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
I don't know, but good to know anyways. Yeah, James Tobo,
I mean, but why not both?

Speaker 1 (39:54):
He does have a family. Is his name Tobin Bell? Okay,
I said James Tobin one am? I I don't know
that James wand mixed with Tobin Bell is what I was.
What just happened.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Also, there's a comedian named Tone Bell, yes, who I
keep wanting to call instead of Tobin Bell.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Look anyway, So the point is Jigsaw iconic? Yeah, little
Jigsaw more iconic.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
The puppet you mean who rides a tricycle.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
The way they try to explain the doll, I think
it's in like Saw three or something, it's a mess.
I'm just like, just let the Jigsaw doll be a
doll it's supposed to. He's like, oh, well, I made
a doll for my son, but then my wife had
a miscarriage. Because this franchise has serious issues with like
needing to punish and abuse people suffering from addiction issues,

(40:52):
that's a big note I have for the Salt Friend cheese.
But there he's like, yeah, I made this doll for
my so on, but then my wife had a miscarriage,
and so now I'm the doll. You're like, oh my god,
it's Jigsaw. Jigsaw the thing, Okay. I was gonna propose
the Jigsaw.

Speaker 5 (41:13):
Test, Oh yeah, please, and it states if Jigsaw a
fears un screen, he's gonna want to play a little
game and it's gonna be a little sick and twisted.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
I mean, every Saw movie passes this test.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Every Saw movie passes this test, and I hope that
it stays that way. I don't want that's you know,
some things need subversion that I don't think.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
So yeah, I don't want to see the movie where
Jigsaw goes to therapy and learns that he should stop
playing games.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
I do feel like the Saw franchise was ahead of
its time in many ways, because I feel like right
now we were talking about it with the Halloween franchise,
where they're in this process of and I know some
people like it, so people don't. I'm ambivalent towards it,
but like, you know, examining post traumatic stress for horror
movie characters and like introducing the idea of trauma into

(42:10):
horror that like didn't exist in the original franchise as much,
but I feel like Saw that's canonical Saw Too. You
find out the source of Jigsaw's pain, you find out
that he like, I mean, don't get me started. What
happened to Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
See I don't remember. Despite having seen many of the Saws,
I don't remember. The only thing I remember about Saw
Too is that there's like a bunch of people who
are trying to escape different scenarios and they're like, we
were brought together for a reason, and it's like kind
of them trying to figure it out. But beyond that, it.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Has to do with corrupt cops. It Saw Too, okay,
but the approach I need I didn't rewatch Saw Too,
So I hope I'm not mischaracterizing it because I had
to reread the I haven't seen Saw Too easily in
ten years. But the premise of it, it is that
Jigsaw again. I'm just like, it's convoluted. He's gonna play

(43:06):
a little game. He's gonna So there's all these people
trapped in a house that's slowly filling with gas. They
seem to have nothing in common. Detective Donni Wahlberg's on
the case and Donnie Wahlberg's son is in the house.
Turns out Donnie Wahlberg is a corrupt cop. The house
is full of people that he is knowingly and wrongfully

(43:28):
framed for crimes who have since been incarcerated. An interesting premise.
Why does Jigsaw feel comfortable furthering the torture of these
innocent people by filling a house with gas? Look, his
methods are convoluted. It's a sick, twisted game. And do
most of the people who have already wrongly served time

(43:48):
in prison die in the house? They do? But there
was an idea there. It was like, what I was saying,
is the soffranchise attempted to comment on corrupt cops at
several times? Now was it done successfully? And the case
was Saw too absolutely not. Didn't really make a lot
of sense. But they reveal Jigsaw's backstory and Saw two

(44:12):
and sort of at the end of Saw one because
they're like, he was a patient of Carrie Elwis and
he had an inoperable tumor, so that's his whole thing.
But there's a whole convoluted story that happens with his
wife and a miscarriage and his marriage falls apart, and
they all blame it on one recovering addict, who then

(44:34):
Jigsaw later kills in a very brutal way. But that's
Jigsaw's way. He finds, like, I didn't remember this one.
There's a whole saw dedicated to letting a father exact
revenge on the drunk driver and the judge and the
lawyer and jury because his son died in a drunk
driving accident. And it's just like Jigsaw's like, go nuts

(44:57):
kill the cop killed, the judge killed the driver. Like yeah,
so that's focused, okay, Jigsaw's whole thing.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
We've been recording for thirty nine minutes.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Jigsaw also commentary on American healthcare. For some reason, Jigsaw
has a bad doctor who like gives him a like
doesn't I forget if it's if they either catch a
tumor too late or they tell him a tumor is
inoperable when it is not. Either way, it's like a

(45:37):
negligent doctor situation that Jigsaws found himself in. So he
believes he has an inoperable tumor, his marriage has fallen
to shit, and he attempts to take his own life
by driving off a cliff. He lives, and then he
has a realization, which is that he's Jigsaw, and so

(45:58):
he So I think that for the most part, he
spends the rest of his life, which I believe ends
in Saw three. And I remember there's a scene where Amanda,
who's in the first movie, I believe she has she
has to do like brain surgery on him or something. Anyways,
he dies, but he spends the rest of his life
being like, people are so ungrateful and yeah, I'm God

(46:25):
and that's male privilege.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Anyways, that's Jigsaw's deal, not that it really becomes relevant
during Saw one until the very end. Wait, we should
recap the movie. Yeah, let's do that, jig Saw JIGSA.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
Okay, So this is the recap for Saw one from
two thousand and four. We open on a guy waking Also,
this is one of the longest recaps I've ever written.
I tried to condense it. I just but like, there's
just so much and there and most of the movie
happens in one room, and yet so much happens.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah, it's genius. Anyway.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Okay, So we open on a guy waking up in
a bathtub full of water, in a dark room. He
doesn't know where he is or what's going on. He's
very freaked out. Yeah, he hears a voice, the lights
come on. It's Carrie ill when McGregor, I.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Love that you. I forgot that. You also can't say it.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
I yes, I can say you and McGregor, I cannot
say Carrie Coloss.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I had a physical response to hearing you say that
man's name correctly because I just know I can't do it.
It's just you wining'. It just happened again. Like my
stomach turns. I had just have like a physical response,
even like looking at his name makes me just nervous.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Okay, So so Scaryl els els elbows ls ls. I'm
not sure. Okay. So there are two men in a room.
It's a disgusting, dilapidated bathroom. Both of the men are
chained to the wall or to something pipes by their

(48:22):
one of their feet. They also see a dead body
lying in a pool of blood in the middle of
the floor.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
We don't think about this. We don't think about this
for hours.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
We know it's there, but yes we don't. It's in
our periphery, but not in our main line of sight.
For most of the movie.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Oh, Henry couldn't come up with this twist. It's the
greatest twist it is.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
I don't disagree.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
In one hand, the dead man is holding a gun
and he seems to have shot himself in the head,
hence the large pool of blood.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
He appears to have lost Jigsaw's game exactly.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
In the other hand, he is holding a tape player. Now,
Carrie Illas.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
I think we should always refer to him as his
as his full name, and I don't want to remember
what I was, like, what is his character's name, because
I just keep thinking carry el Wez Well, I'm going in, Adam.
I do think of the other one as Adam did
you as you were watching this, where you're just like
this is is this the is Nathan Fields or Jigsaw?

(49:33):
It was a passing thought I had, it was I
could just I was like, fast forward twenty years in
Nathan Fielder's career. Is he Jigsaw? And let's not rule it.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Saw movies are just long episodes of Nathan for you?
Is that perhaps.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Rehearsal Season nine has stunning parallel. This is a clickbait
piece for the future. This is the rehearsal Season nine
has stunning parallels to Saw three. In this essay, I
will ugh, I feel like Nathan Fielder. He doesn't have
Jigsaw energy, but no Jigsaw methods. It could get anyways.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Okay, so Carrie you Wills is like, I'm doctor Lawrence Gordon,
I'm a surgeon, and the other guy is like, I'm
Adam and he is played by Lee Wannel Wannell.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Le Wannell Sure, I'm just I'm going Wannel.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
To me wrote the screenplay and co created the story
with James Wan Anyway, Lawrence and Adam introduce themselves, yes,
and they try to figure out why they might be there,
who their captor is, and what they want from Lawrence
and Adam. They then discover envelopes that were placed in

(50:51):
their pockets. Adam's envelope has a tape, Lawrence's has a tape,
a bullet, and a key. They try to un their
chains with the key, but it doesn't work, so then
they get the tape player in the dead guy's hand.
Adam plays his tape first, and it's a creepy voice
who we will learn belongs to Jigsaw. I like how

(51:18):
every time I refer to the voice, you start humming
the theme song as if it's the voice, which.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Which it famously is. Not that I I want a Jigsa.
I'm unfortunately on eBay as we speak. I'm paying attention,
but I'm also shopping for a Jigsaw doll there.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Oh yeah, of course. Well, hey, it's your birthday coming up.
Maybe hold off on buying your soul. I almost I've
bought you a Jigsaw doll yet.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Please bring it to my birthday party at medieval times.
Bring a Jigsa do to Medieval Times. I feel like
it would be a hit. I almost bought adult earlier
this year when I was working, when I was in
the trenches on my my with my female Jigsaw character. Yeah,
and I almost bought something off of Etsy called Baby Jigsaw,
but then I decided too scary didn't buy it.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Oh my god, I think it's time to design some
new merch similar to the queer icon baby Grinch.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Baby Jigsaw's so funny. I feel like in the same
way you're like, baby Grew is not gonna work, but
it works better than Adult Grew. Baby Jigsaw, I don't know,
could work better than it would? You know it would.
It would kind of fuck with Cannon, but give me
a chance, James wand let me write the baby jigsaws.

(52:46):
I guess that's kind of chucky adjacent, but I'm okay
with that. Yeah, hmm, all right, sorry to what's happening.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
So the creepy voice on the tape player is saying
to Adam, basically, you're a pathetically loser and you've done
nothing with your life and maybe you'll die today. Now,
Lawrence's tape is the harsh, really harsh.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
That's classic Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
You know, it's it's it's tough but fair.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
He's a fair he's a he's a vengeful god, but
but you know he's a fair god. Okay.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
So Lawrence's tape is the voice saying, you have to
kill Adam, and you have until six o'clock to do it,
and if you don't do it, Alison and Diana will die.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
So we are already in we're damseling the whole family.
There is a version of that later on, but for
the majority, we've we've doubled damseled the Elwhiz ladies.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
Correct, Yes, So it says that, and then Jigsaw is like,
by the way X marks the spot for treasure, Let
the game be gin.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
What is he talking about? Whoa? And then I love
this guy?

Speaker 3 (54:05):
And then in a whisper, he says, follow your heart,
and then they notice a heart.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
My mom says that.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
They notice a heart drawn on the toilet next to Adam,
and inside the tank are two handsaws which they used
to try to saw through their chains, but the chains
are way too thick and strong. And then Lawrence realizes
their captor doesn't want them to cut through the chains,

(54:39):
he wants them to cut through their feet.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Awesome. What was that horrible James Franco movie where he
had to do the same thing and it was like,
nice try, Oh that was based on a true story.
I think someone really had to do that.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yeah, that is definitely a true story. Correct.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
If I had to cut my own limb off m hm,
I would take comfort in the fact that.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
It's what Jigsaw would have wanted.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Jigsaw vibes. I'm channeling Jigsaw right now, But it would
not it would not be good. Yes, all right, now
that I've made that insight, will comment.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Yeah, all due respect to the real life person who
had to cut off their arm.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
In Yeah, I know, I'm mostly saying I hate James Franco.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, he James Franco should cut
off every appendage on his body. Got his ass, Yeah, okay,
he should cut off too, exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
All right, So.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
Lawrence starts to realize, he starts to you know, kind
of suspect who might be behind this. We flash back
to various crime scenes where a few detectives, including Detective
Tap played by Danny Glover and Detective Sing played by

(55:59):
Ken Lang, they find the victims of the Jigsaw Killer.
And this killer's whole thing is that he wants to
punish his victims for something they did, some vice they
have or something, and he will.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Bigsaw loves to punish people struggling with addiction. It's one
of my least favorite things about Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Yeah, he's got some work to do. Yeah, So what
Jigsaw will do is devise an elaborate and horrific escape
room like scenario.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
They forgot iconic and iconic.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
He basically builds little escape rooms and he puts his
victims in them, and they are usually unable to escape
and they end up doing something to kill themselves in
the process because they have to climb through razor wire
or they accidentally light themselves on fire stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
I feel like he kind of I wonder how inspired
that was by like Charles Manson kind of stuff of, like, well,
I didn't do the how can you prosecute me for
being a killer? I didn't do it myself? When it's
like no Jigsaw, no, no Jigsaw, you are a killer?
Do you remember at some point? Well, I guess you weren't.

(57:17):
I was, embarrassingly back in the day a big Gilmore
Girls fan, and I think it's Saw four where Luke
from Gilmore Girls enters the Saw universe and you're just like, what, Yeah,
he they really rough him up? They you thought you
thought they roughed up his heart on Gilmore Girls. Well,

(57:38):
all I'll say is, if you were team Christopher on
Gilmore Girls, you were loving Saw four or five and
maybe six because they were they were really handing Luke's
ass back to him. He was like an associate of
Detective Donnie Wahlberg these movies. Describing these movies does make
you sound like really disconnected from reality, but they put

(57:59):
like he was the guy that I also have a
list of like best Saw kills, and it was kind
of refreshing my memory a little bit. He was this guy,
the guy that they put the cue the cube on
his head? Do you remember cube head?

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Was that from Saw two?

Speaker 1 (58:15):
No, I think it's from like four.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Oh then, But they all really blend together.

Speaker 5 (58:20):
For me.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
It's it's funny because you can see his like bad
hair plugs even in this like grainy shot. I also
feel like embraced Balding Luke. Right.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Here's the thought that I just had, which is that
I feel like a lot of what they do on
Jackass is not unlike what Jigsaw does to his victims,
because well I didn't see the Jackass movie, but I
just remember, like I saw the trailer a million times,
and there's like a scenario where they like poor honey

(58:52):
on a guy, strap him to a chair and then
put a grizzly bear in the room with him. Or
there's a part where like the puts a box around
someone's head and then they put a tarantula in a
tube getting toward it. So I'm just like, this is
Jigsaw stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
The new Jackass movie was I thought pretty fun, and
also it now the parallels are are kind of blowing
my mind because I later had sex with a guy
as an adult in Boston, who made me watch two
Jackass movies before he would kiss me on the map.
Whoa do you remember and then bleep that out.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
I don't remember this person though.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Oh well, he uh did improv and he didn't have
a bed frame and I watched two Jackass movies with him.
He had he had also like not, I mean what,
we were all broke, but there's different ways to be,
you know whatever. He was a real. He was a
real I think classic maybe w Yeah, because his he'd

(59:55):
in lieu of a TV stand, he had a stack
of JFK conspiracy books. Anyways, absolutely was in love with
him for some reason. Nice. Oh. The last thing I
was gonna say was I feel like, on one side
of Saw adjacent you have Jackass, which predated Saw, and
I wonder if you would imagine that the writers at

(01:00:18):
some point would have to go to the Jackass well
for inspiration. And then on the other side, I think
you have kind of the because I mean, correctly probably
Saw was criticized in its time for being torture porn.
Now this is this is a good point, but I

(01:00:38):
think that the success of this movie, because this movie
made its budget back one hundred times. Yeah, So fucking wild.
But it influenced a lot of other horror franchises that
I think like leaned into the torture porn with no
attempted commentary. And I'm thinking of the Saw franchise.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Yeah, same, Yeah, I know it. I was reading The
Wan and Wannell, So what I'm gonna call them?

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
The boys, the best Friends, the W's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
They drew inspiration from seven, which is one of my
favorite thrillers.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Is that What's in the Box? Yeah? What was it?
What was in the box?

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
I'm not gonna spoil it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Oh okay, that's really funny. There's like a ton of
listeners that were.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Like, no, okay. So we learn about Jigsaw's m O. Yeah,
we get another flashback of doctor Lawrence talking to med students,
maybe about a patient who has terminal cancer and yeah,
like an inoperable tumor.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Put a pin in that. Yes, it turns out he's
the problem. He too busy cheating on his wife to
give Jigsaw a correct diagnosis.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
And then we also meet very briefly, an orderly named
Zepp good name, who comes in and he's like that
patient you're talking about. Actually his name is John, and
he's very interesting and when you're watching the movie, you
don't think much of it as you're watching it, but then.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
When watching it, you're like, yeah, I would say John
is a little interesting. I guess I would say that
because he's Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Yeah. So then detectives tap and sing question Lawrence because
he's a suspect in the Jigsaw case because his pen
light was found at the scene of one of the
crimes at one of the escape rooms. But Lawrence has
an alibi that checks out, and it's implied that he

(01:02:48):
is having an affair.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Yeah, but he's deeply ashamed of the affair. Yeah, and
that's a whole thing for him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Lawrence is then asked to listen into the testimony of
one of Jigsaw's only victim to ever escape, a woman
named Amanda, who.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Turns out to be his associate.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Uh what, I don't remember that. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Amanda's in a bunch of them because she ends up
because you know how, she's like, Jigsaw helped me, and
then she like kind of becomes his sidekick for several
I think up until his death.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Okay, I do kind of remember that, and.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Then I don't know, I don't remember. Assuming she dies
at some point Buck because she's in Saw movies.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Right, Everybody dies.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Yeah, I mean yeah, every whether you're in a Saw
movie or not. Guess what, you're gonna die. Someday you're
gonna die, just hopefully not in a Oh I was
thinking of this one. I don't remember what Saw movie
it was. Do you remember the pile of syringes, the
syringe like kind of yeah, someone had to crawl through
the syringe Like, ooh, baby, that was not that was

(01:03:55):
that was unfortunate. Yeah, sure thing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
This is also when we see the little Jigsaw puppet
guy who comes pedaling into the room on a tricycle
and we're.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Like, we're like, yeah, we're standing, we're cheering. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
We cut back to the present with Lawrence and Adam
in the room. They figure out that there's a camera
in the room and that they're being watched, presumably by Jigsaw.
Adam finds a polaroid of Lawrence's family who have been
like kidnapped and tied up, and there's an X written
on the back of it, but Adam doesn't show this

(01:04:35):
to Lawrence right away. Then we get another flashback with
Lawrence and his daughter. She's talking about a scary man
that's in her room. Lawrence comforts her and puts her
to bed, And there's I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
The only one that felt that. I felt that I
was I didn't look this up, but Carrie el Wes
is parenting I found to be patronizing and creepy. He's like,
what do you mean I would never abandon you and
your mom? And I was like, Okay, this girl's she's
too old to be spoken to like that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
I wasn't sure if you could like chalk that up
to just like his poorly written character or Carrie Elle,
was this really bad acting.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Or genuinely, I mean his character and this is giving
him too much crep but like his character is full
of shit, So maybe he's like, I should sound like
I'm kind of lying because it sounds like he kind
of maybe could bail on his family, like he doesn't
care about them as much as he should. Although I'll
say my least favorite actor in the movie in like
this scene specifically, but there's a few scenes where the

(01:05:38):
woman what is because I don't want to spend the
whole time saying his wife what is his wife's name? Alice?

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
Allison?

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Alison. Yeah, So the first scene, Alison is in. I
don't know what was going on there, but she that
acting was what was going on there. She was like,
she was like Carrie el was, you can't this is bullshit.
I can't believe that you are You're you're messing around
on me. Like it was just like total dead fish's

(01:06:07):
energy that she was bringing to the role. Her perform
it gets kind of good once she gets a gun,
she kind of kind of wakes up. I agree, I
thought she was good in those scenes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
But earlier, Yeah, there's a scene where she's like, don't
stand there and try to convince me that you're happy.
Scream at me and tell me you hate me. At
least then there would be some passion and like that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
All delivered at the same like that was her delivery also,
at least then there would be some passion. I'm like, oh,
I'm like, I'm breaking up with this lady. This is
not helping there. Also, how did they get Danny Glover
to be in this movie? And how dare they kill
him so early? And they're how his character is also

(01:06:48):
like bizarre, weird, and at some point they're like, this
character's kind of like Jigsaw. You don't want to hand
it to Jigsaw. But Jigsaw is like, this guy's a weirdo,
and I'm like, oh, no, I kind of agree. He
is acting a bit weird.

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
He yeah, it's very cartoonish. Yeah, okay. So we're in
this flashback where we see Lawrence interacting with his family.
We see him and his wife Alison have an argument.
Their marriage seems to be very tense. It seems like
she suspects him of cheating and storms out, and she's right,

(01:07:26):
he storms out. Then a scary man who is hiding
in the little girl's closet abducts Lawrence's wife and daughter,
torments them a bit, and then we see that it's
Zep that orderly from the hospital, So we are thinking, okay,
Zepp is Jigsaw, I guess. Then we flash back to

(01:07:48):
Detective Tap studying the video that Jigsaw made and showed
to Amanda, the woman who had escaped, and Tap discovers
a clue that leads him and Detective Sing to what
appears to be Jigsaw's secret layer in an abandoned mannequin factory.
So that was my I was again iconic iconic, and

(01:08:11):
I'm like, oh, he found that a mannequin and then
made it into the little Jigsaw puppet. That was sort
of what I was thinking must have happened.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Which is the easiest explanation, But I don't think that's
ultimately the one they go with. I think that they're
just like, no, it had to do with his they made.
They connected it to like Jigsaw trauma, like he could
just find a mannequin. It seems like they were all around. Yeah,
but also the Jigsaw doll, what would that have been
for at any point a haunted house, Like that's the

(01:08:40):
only thing I could think.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
Of, right, because also Jigsaw has this this mask of
like a pig's face that he puts on to abduct,
right people, And then there's also the puppet. And then
Jigsaw also just sometimes wears like a hooded trench coat
kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
He's got a lot of different personas, I guess, is
what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Yeah, he's got all the fifth You've got all of looks.
The fashion My Cursed YouTube video the fashion evolution of Jigsaw.
There another great sketch. I really love Cursed YouTube. And
like there's those videos on like I think it's like
the Vogue channel where they bring in huge celebrities when
it would be interesting and more interesting if they brought
in Jigsaw and they're like whatever, Like, Nicole Kidman breaks

(01:09:27):
down ten iconic looks from across her career and it's fine.
But if you brought in Jigsaw, Jigsaw breaks and ten
iconic looks from his career as a murderer.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
Hang on a second. If we're talking about Nicole Kidman's
iconic looks, obviously the most iconic one is the one
that she wears in the AMC theaters.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
Oh you know it commercial, the pinstripe suit with a
little bit of glitter. And did you see that she
got picked up for an additional year for that. I'm like,
what does that even mean? Is that they're gonna be
an you're shooting another one? I don't know. They just
need to like license her likeness so they can show
it forever. I kind of would be like sad if
there was a new one, I'd be excited, but I

(01:10:07):
would miss the old one.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
What if there was a whole franchise AMC one, AMC two,
AMC three up until AMC six and then AMC three D.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
And then they'll be like, Okay, we had to ease
off this franchise. This is getting to be a bit much.
Oh my god, I look, Saw is so fun. Okay,
so wait, where do we leave off in.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
The story of Saw, Jamie, you've been recording for seventy
two minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
No, oh no, the clack is too Did I show
you my picture with Jigsaw? I posted it earlier this year.
Oh here, you keep talking, I'll send you my Jigsaw picture.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
Okay, thank you so much. Okay, you're welcome. So they
go to Jigsaw's secret layer. Yeah, there is a man there,
another one of Jigsaw's victims. He's about to be killed.
Jigsaw shows up. There's a big where the detectives save
the victim they're chasing. After Jigsaw, Sing is killed in

(01:11:07):
a trap. Jigsaw slits taps throat and ultimately escapes. So
then we cut back to the present where Tap has survived,
which is wild because his throat was cut so deep.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
I always kind of forget that because it defies logic
by so much. Like I was. I mean, don't get
me wrong, I was happy to see that Danny Glover
was still in the movie, but it really is against
all logic that he's still in the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
That injury would almost certainly kill. I'm not a doctor,
but I really I'm no doctor. Lawrence Gordon played by
Carrie il Whizz.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
Well good because then you would misdiagnose Jigsaw and then
you and then you'd be in for a real ride.
I oh god, Jigsaw, he's so COMPLI he's so complicated.

Speaker 3 (01:12:03):
Okay, So Tap survives. He now has a big scar
on his neck and he is now obsessed with this case.
It has completely consumed him. And this is where the
character gets very cartoonish and weird, and just some weird
choices are made there. Okay, so we cut to the

(01:12:24):
room again. Lawrence is like, Okay, we need to figure
out this whole X marks the spot thing, which they
find by turning off the lights and they see an
X on the wall and glow in the dark paint.
Lawrence busts open the wall and finds a box in
which is a cell phone, a couple of cigarettes, and
a lighter. Adam is desperate to smoke the cigarette because

(01:12:47):
he's stressed, because he's so stressed, but there's also this
ominous note from Jigsaw for Lawrence about the cigarette and
how Lawrence could maybe poison Adams with the cigarette and
the poison that's in the blood and blah blah blah.
So Lawrence first he tries to make a call. He

(01:13:08):
tries to like call nine one one, but turns out
this phone it's only for incoming calls. So then Lawrence
hatches a plan to make Jigsaw think that he's poisoning
the cigarette with the blood from the dead guy. Lawrence
has Adam play along. He smokes the cigarette, he pretends
to die, but.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
It's horribly faking job. Yeah, it's like such a bad job.
I think that he's supposed to be bad at it
in the movie and I was like, that's a good
bake death. That was a good bake death. Yeah, he
really phoned it in.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
You would have thought, though that because Lawrence is a doctor,
and you would think he would know how long it
would take for like a poison to take effect.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
And you would he be a good doctor. He's a
canonically doctor. And meanwhile he and also if anyone's gonna
know a bad actor, it's Tobin Bell. He studied Meisner.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
As did the character Jackson.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Bo I wish, wouldn't that be great? I we don't
have time there yet. Jigsaw is not is not falling
for it not having it, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
He doesn't, and he punishes Adam by electrocuting him via
the chain, which is also apparently has an electrical current
going through it. Who knows. So then we get the
reveal that Adam has been photographing Lawrence and he knows
who Lawrence is, even though he pretended not to. Then

(01:14:42):
the cell phone rings it's Lawrence's daughter and wife, and
Alison confirms this that Adam knows who Lawrence is, and
it turns out that Adam had been taking pictures of
Lawrence's indiscretions the past few nights.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
For Danny Glover question Mark.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
And so I don't know if that's supposed to be
another red herring where it's like maybe tap, maybe it's Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
I guess I never even thought it. Maybe that is.
I don't even know. At that point, You're just like,
I'm just I kind of forget that we're supposed to
be wondering who Jigsaw is. I'm like, I almost don't care.
I just I just am like waiting for Karrie el
West to have his ass handed to him. That was
another interesting like I do think the swings that the
Saw franchise takes it trying to say something but never

(01:15:27):
quite saying anything is interesting where like, you know, Jigsaw
is so lawless that it's like he doesn't really have
a code of ethics other than like practice X games
gratitude at all times. But like, but I do think
it's you know, he he Jigsaw does not like cops,
probably partially because he's wanted. But on that front, Jigsaw

(01:15:49):
and I are are a united front. But he does
not like Danny Glover for being I don't even know
all cops are corrupt. In this specific case, he's just
like acting really weird. He's too into it, and you're like,
why are you like spending possibly your own money. But

(01:16:10):
then also like kind of taking on like surveillance and
like Adam deserves to die because he colluded with the cops.
But then also you do get from Adam the fact
that he's like, well, I've been put in this position
because of a class issue. I don't have any fucking money.
What am I supposed to do? And then with Carrie Els,

(01:16:30):
you have the idea of like shame and like is
it right to surveil someone against their will even if
they are doing something fucked up? No, it's always wrong.
But Carrie el is also not a great guy. Like
just everyone in the Saw franchise is complex and bad.
I just think it's good, like it's good, it's simply good.
They're but they're like they're not. There's no I mean,

(01:16:54):
I guess there's It's not that there's no value judgments.
It's that there's only value judgments.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
And they're mostly coming from Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
And Jigsaw Jigsaw kind of above criticism in Jigsaw's opinion.
Who's never having to play a little game Jigsaw until
the until I think Saw three.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Anyway, I cannot wait to rewatch all of these movies. Okay,
so we've learned the detective tap Is is no longer
a cop, first of all, and he's paying Adam to
surveil Lawrence for reasons.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
For reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I think tap still thinks that Lawrence is Jigsaw. I
think so, yes, I think he thinks that the whole time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):
And I mean that is I guess true to shitty
cop logic of just and that is explored and later
so wait, this is blowing my eye. That's explored and
later Saw movies where like Danny Glover has in his
mind who he thinks did the crime, and he's exhausting
every possible resource to arrest who he thinks did the
crime so he can close the case, which happens all

(01:18:00):
the time. And then Saw two is all about how
detective Donnie Wahlberg does the same thing, and it's like
put people in prison and ruined lives and then unfortunately
Jigsaw fills the house with gas and they all die.
So that again, that part was confusing. But Jigsaw does
not like lazy cops. He does not.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
Yeah, wow, okay, where are we were almost done with
the recap? Okay, So the clock strikes six, which is
when Lawrence was supposed to kill Adam.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
By Jigsaw has got an early bedtime.

Speaker 3 (01:18:43):
He's like, I've got a dinner, He's got to watch
Two and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
Men is on at eight and I'm not missing it.
So we gotta wrap, we gotta be done. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
So Zepp calls the cell phone and has Alison tell
Lawrence that he failed since he didn't kill Adam in time.
But Alison has untied herself and fights back against Zepp
and there's a struggle. Detective Tap comes in, who had
been monitoring the whole situation, so he goes over to

(01:19:17):
see what's going on. There's a big shootout and Alison
and Diana have a chance to escape, but Lawrence is
listening on the phone. He hears all the gunshots, all
the screaming, and he assumes the worst. He thinks that
his family is being murdered. Sure, he doesn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
It's almost like he forgets so that there's a little
game going on and that's on him.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
He does seem to forget. Yeah, So, thinking that his
family is perishing, he takes the saw and saws his
foot off so that he can escape.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
No way around that. He then he does so.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
Takes the bullet, crawls over to the dead body, loads
the gun and shoots Adam, thinking that that will be
a good idea.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
I'm like, really not. Sometimes I'm just like what was
he going for there? And Adam seems to sort of,
i mean understandably, kind of feels the same way. He's
like no, He's like, what are you doing? Don't And
he's like, yeah, wait a second, what is happening right now?
Are you doing? Could you staw excuse me? Could you

(01:20:33):
stop stop? Oh jig saw? Okay wait okay.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
So meanwhile, Tap is chasing Zepp who we still think
is Jigsaw. Yeah, he catches up to Zepp. There's a
scuffle and Tap is shot and killed. So then Zepp
comes into the room to kill Lawrence because he was
too late. He didn't follow the rules. He didn't kill
Adam by six o'clock. But oh wait, Adam is still

(01:21:05):
alive and he attacks and kills Zepp. Yes, so then
Lawrence crawls away to find help because he's bleeding to
death and Adam has been shot and he's like, I
need to go find help.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Terry Elwis is the last girl in this movie, which
is interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
Well, no, I feel like it's Adam, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Oh, yeah, that is true. Yeah, but also I'm thinking
that because Cary el Was, I believe is later revealed
to still be work, I think he goes to work
for Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
What that's a hold on?

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
No, wait, I might be I might be mis remembering
that there's some there's a cast member that you think
couldn't possibly come back but does.

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
And those are the twists of the Saw franchise and
that you love to see.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
And these are the Saw moments we love the most. Yeah, No,
he doesn't, he doesn't die. Yeah, he I think later
goes to I think that I don't know if he
does it willingly. I don't know if he like I forget,
if he like joins the like Jigsaw Ethos, or if
Jigsaw is simply punishing him for having told him that

(01:22:14):
his tumor was inoperable when it wasn't, which was you know,
he was right to be mad.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
He was right to be mad.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
Yeah, because if Carrie l Was had been a less
shitty doctor, Jigsaw wouldn't even be a thing.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Is that the catalyst that gets everything going for Jigsaw?

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Yeah, it's when Jigsaw is so he attempts to take
his own life after learning he has an inoperable tumor. Ok,
it wasn't actually inoperable, right, and then it's after he
survives that accident that he becomes Jigsaw. So no, Carrie
el was Is being a shitty doctor kind of sets

(01:22:53):
off the chain of events that leads to Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
But we don't we don't learn that until a later
saw a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
Yeah, that's not that's I don't think that they thought
there was going to be morisaws, but they made up
for it by making some of the best movies ever.

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
Okay, so Lawrence has crawled away. He's bleeding to death,
although apparently doesn't die. Then Adam searches Zep's body for
a key to try to unlock his chains, but what
he finds is another tape player. He hits play and
it's Jigsaw's voice, a message to Zepp, Yeah, giving him

(01:23:38):
a game to play woo. So Jigsaw had poisoned Zepp
and said I have the antidote and you have to
kill Alison and Diana in order to get the antidote.
So basically this is the reveal that Zepp wasn't Jigsaw
after all?

Speaker 1 (01:23:59):
But who is? And then can't then get ready for
a mighty.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):
The dead man who has been lying in the pool
of blood in the middle of the room throughout the
entire movie stands up. He's Jigsaw, Yeah, but who is that?
He's John, the patient in Lawrence's hospital who has terminal cancer.

(01:24:29):
And he gets up and he's like, Adam, you fucking loser.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
What this says carry Ela was forgetting he's doing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
So Jigsaw is all like, Adam, you suck and you
are gonna die, and then he says game over and
then he slams the door, leaving Adam to perish.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
A top one hundred movie lines game over over slam.
Oh my god, yeah, my blood pressure is spiking. Okay,
So I just looked at Lawrence Gordon because I was like,
it doesn't come up for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:25:07):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:25:08):
So Lawrence Gordon in the Saw neverse, Yeah, still canonically alive.
So what Lawrence Gordon? This is from Scholarly Journal Wikipedia.
Lawrence Gordon is the man who diagnosed John Kramer's terminal
cancer and was initially a suspect in the Jigsaw murder case.
Of course, John targets Lawrence for being cold and on
carrying to others and for cheating on his wife Alison.

(01:25:30):
Lawrence is placed in a trap blah blah blah. His
fate is unknown until Saw three D, when it is
revealed that Lawrence passed out after using a hot steam
pipe to cauterize his ankle stump. John found him unconscious
shortly after and congratulated him for surviving. He then helped
Lawrence recover and gave him a prosthetic foot. John recruited

(01:25:53):
Lawrence afterwards and used his medical skills to prepare other traps.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
And this we don't learn until Saw seven.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
Until Saw seven. What, Yeah, because I was I was
scanning Wikipedia earlier, and I'm like, oh, I guess he lives,
but he like they there's also like flashbacks to the
first Saw movie in almost every Saw movie, right, which
gets confusing. So after even though Jigsaw's in every movie,
Jigsaw dies in the third movie, Yeah, but you see flashbacks.

(01:26:24):
So Tobin Bell is still getting those checks, but he's
canonically dead. Carrie el Was could be brought back at
any time. Really, I think that that is such a
wild but yeah, so then he's like brought onto the
production design team for Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Basically, yeah, who's on Jigsaw's team? We don't Okay, we
have to talk about the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:26:48):
Okay, there's actually we've we have like say what you
will listeners, We have had some interesting discussions. So I
think that, like truly, again, I don't think that the
Saw franchise until apparently Spiral, which I now want to watch,
was never like trying to explicitly tackle one social issue

(01:27:12):
because Jigsaw is it sounds like such like an understatement.
It's say, morally ambiguous, Jigsaw. It's hard to kind of
know what is moral code is and you can quote
me on that, but I do think it's like interesting
that in a movie from two thousand and four that

(01:27:34):
there are these attempts to I think, subvert classic horror
tropes where it feels like it's playing on our expectations
of you know, in horror movies. I feel like we
are often it's often assumed that we are going to
side with the police detectives, assume that they are good
at their jobs, that they are morally upright, all this

(01:27:58):
stuff that is like inherent to Copagan, which I kind
of was like, I wonder how I forget how on
Danny Glover's side we're supposed to be. It's pretty ambiguous,
like it is pointed at like, I don't think that
we're supposed to hate him. I don't think we're supposed
to be rooting for his demise.

Speaker 3 (01:28:14):
I think we're supposed to be on his side, even.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
He's also like really, I was sort of struggling with
it this time. I could believe in two thousand and
four year we're supposed to but I think I can
be read in a lot of different I think.

Speaker 3 (01:28:28):
The intention is that sorry, I mean defending a son.
I think the intention of the filmmakers is for Danny
Glover's character to be even after he gets like booted
off the force and he's doing his weird like ongoing
investigation where he's mostly.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
Just like hires like TMZ to like spy on Carrie
Elwa's for.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
Right, And he also seems to know that because he's
like surveilling ZEP and it seems like he because he's like,
what's this guy doing in I don't know that all
got confusing, but sensing how I think the filmmakers intended
for the audience to perceive the various characters. I think
that we are supposed to be rooting for Detective tap

(01:29:14):
slash Danny Glover, not as like the protagonist, but.

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
Which does make sense because casting Danny Glover right, I
feel like, also, yeah, it does kind of tell you that,
like you're not gonna put Danny Glover in a movie
and then be like we hate him because he's so
canonically loved. Right, Okay, then I guess I'll I totally
see what you're saying. But I do think that in retrospect,
there's a lot of different ways to look at it. Sure,
and as the series goes on, there are more explicit

(01:29:41):
criticisms of police brutality and like corruption propaganda, yeah, like
and also there are tropes at play in this movie
that are subverting nothing. So so there's a pretty intense damseling.
I mean, I guess that you could argue everyone in

(01:30:02):
Saw is a damsel to an extent, because that's kind
of a Jigsaw's whole thing. But it does seem like
Carrie el was his family, his wife and his daughter
are damseled in the more traditional sense right there, kept
captive in their own home, and they don't appear to
have skills to get out of the situation.

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):
Which like the I mean, why would they kind of thing,
But that's true for me.

Speaker 1 (01:30:24):
They didn't go to Jigsaw boot camp like me, I
dare you put a bear trap on my head? Not
a problem, Not a problem. I'll be at dinner on time.

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
There should be sort of like kind of like a
self defense class, but it's like a Jigsaw defense class.
Like if you get trapped in a Jigsaw trap, this
is how you get out of it, and that should
be a class.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
This is another Mad TV sketch from two thousand and
seven that we should have written. It's just not fair.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
Okay, So my I see what you're saying, and I think,
what this is, This is the big thing for me
in this movie that I think otherwise holds up pretty well.
It's that the female characters, and particularly his wife and
his daughter, are mostly there to provide stakes for one

(01:31:12):
of the male protagonists. They get captured, they get held hostage.
I would say, at least his wife, Allison, fights back
against Zepp. She gets herself untied.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
And in a way that's like realistic and didn't seem
like magic, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:31:29):
Right right, Like she manages it because it kind of
like happens gradually and it all feels like attracts. So
she gets herself untied, kind of tricks him a little bit,
you know, waits for the opportune moment, springs a little
trap on him, grabs the gun from Zep, holds him
at gunpoint, fights with him because he kind of fights back,

(01:31:50):
and grabs the gun again. She then grabs a pair
of scissors and stabs him in the leg. He while
he's kind of pretty awesome incapacitated and then also distracted.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Is a household object kill It is like it's not
it's yeah, it's not good.

Speaker 3 (01:32:08):
It's not one of those like traditionally, like seminin ones
that we see a lot where it's like, oh, well,
a woman is would be in the kitchen cooking with
a frying pant.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
Frying pant kind so it's scissors because women be crafting.
That's my that's my that's my disingenuous.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
Read honestly, if I if wanted.

Speaker 1 (01:32:28):
To be scraped, therefore.

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
Exactly so. So she stabs some scissors and then he's like,
you know, injured. And then also I think this is
when Danny Glover comes in, so so Zepp is distracted,
and this gives Alison a chance for her to grab
Diana and run away. So she manages to like fight
back and escape on her own. Again, Danny Glover comes

(01:32:54):
in right around then, but he's not he doesn't save them,
She saves herself and her daughter. Yes, So I felt
like that was kind of out of the ordinary for
what we would generally see.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
Partial credit. Give partial credit on that, because I do
agree that they are they're like Damsel for the majority
of the movie. They're not characterized outside of giving Carrie
Elwa's steaks.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
There is kind of an attempt made at that, especially
with the relationship between Lawrence and Alison. But it feels
so just like Half Baked and Tropy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
It's mostly like off screen too, it's mostly just like
what you hear an argument they're having while Diana's in bed,
and like, yeah, you know, an attempt, sure, but not amazing,
not amazing. It's not amazing, controversially not amazing. Did you
know you want to know something about Lee Wannell? Tell

(01:33:53):
me he wrote and directed The Invisible Man. Oh yeah,
he's still at it to these days, to this damn day,
to these days, to these days, to these day. Thank
you for I was like, maybe I didn't say that there,
but I did. I love that Lee Wannel and James
wand they are friends till the very end. Because Lee

(01:34:16):
Wannell's eventual, he writes, He writes the first three Saws honestly,
wan and Wanall or Wanell, depending on your mood. They
really they really set a strong foundation for the Saw franchise.
The first three Saws, the original Saw trilogy is incredible.
It's the full story of Jigsaw. Sorry women, yes, no,

(01:34:42):
it's it's there was an attempt made, and I guess
the best that you can say for it is it
was good for two thousand and four.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
Yeah, I guess, but maybe I think some tropes were subverted,
some were very much leaned into as far as like
the characterization of women in a horror movie. Yeah, so
I found that to be the most kind of glaring
issue with this movie. Other than that, like I kind

(01:35:12):
of the other trope that stood out to me, I mean,
I think that this movie is still a majority white cast.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
There is some diversity in the movie. However, it did
sort of like this is a trope I think we've
discussed on the show at some point, but the frequency
that people of color and like black actors specifically are
cast as cops, Yeah, as a way of kind of
tacitly endorsing the police industrial complex, which obviously has an

(01:35:41):
adverse effect on the black community in a massive, massive way.
And so you see a lot of characters who are
cops who were played by people of color in not
to pull a page from Jane's Want book, but in
a bit of an insidious way.

Speaker 3 (01:35:57):
You might also say that it's kind of malignant.

Speaker 1 (01:36:01):
Yes, and it's conjuring some doubt for me, But that
is I mean, that is a t that you know,
I'm not gonna say that this was done intentionally to Like,
I don't think they were trying to do that. I
just think it is like a common trope that is
often kind of overlooked, and they die. They both die,

(01:36:23):
Like the two main characters who are people of color
are cops who die, so right, we don't love that.

Speaker 3 (01:36:30):
I have a feeling that James wand his only intention,
i'd imagine was to just have some inclusive casting as
a person of color himself.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
And also have Danny Glover in your movie by any
means necessary, like obviously, and also I will say in
because I'll defend James Wan until I absolutely die. Like
Lee Wannel Wannell and James Wan are Australian, They very
well and young. They may not have been familiar with

(01:37:02):
the dark history of the American policing system outside of
just like movies, many Americans were not aware who were
not directly affected by it, you know, sure, So I
don't think this was done intentionally. I just wanted to
point it out because it is. It's like, I don't
want to knock inclusive casting, right, but all are you know?

(01:37:24):
I mean, I guess in the context of the police
and industrial complext Danny Glover is supposed to be a hero.
You know what I'm saying. It's a complicated issue that
this movie is like, not a particularly bad perpetrator of
it's just whatever, very complicated discussion. Sure, but I did
want to point out that our two main characters who

(01:37:45):
are people of color are cast as cops who die.

Speaker 3 (01:37:49):
Yeah, and I did that did ping for me too,
But then I thought about everyone else who dies or lives. Well,
although I mean as far as the people who live,
I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
It apparently Lawrence lives. Jigsaw, I mean Adam.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
As far as we can tell in this movie. Just
isolating this movie, Adam, I think we assume will die
because he doesn't escape the escape room.

Speaker 1 (01:38:14):
It's kind of it was kind of giving some x
mac in a pre x macina. Right. Yeah, he's fucked
in a similar way to Dominic Aeson.

Speaker 3 (01:38:22):
Uh huh. It really seems like Lawrence is going to
die because he is so close to bleeding out. Wait
till twenty ten comes around. Turns out he cauterized the
wound and passed out. Kind of the only people who
survive are Alison, Alison and Diana and Jigsaw and Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
So we do have whatever I not to Again, this
is like, I don't think intentional in the story. I
doesn't seem like any of these parts were written for
anyone of any particular race, right, But it's just yeah,
I just always feels like worth noting it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:01):
Yeah, I mean it's worth pondering for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:39:05):
Oh. Also, the other character who we haven't talked about,
Carla Song, who is the student that Carrie els is
cheating with. Right, so that is we know nothing about
this car I mean it is basically all of the
women in this movie except for Amanda, who we should
talk about, are there to flesh out Carrie el Wes's

(01:39:29):
failures as a man. Sure, and Carla Song in particular
is sort of there just to be like the student
that he's having sex with. She has a couple of lines.
He's mostly mean to her. It is framed as bad.
That is why Jigsaw, like Jigsaw, is very pro Carla Song,
you think, because guess what, this isn't the last saw

(01:39:51):
thing she appears in per Wikipedia, this had this. She
shows up I think in a video game. So here's
what happens. Oh WHOA Carlos is a medical student at
Saint Eusta's hospital and doctor Lawrence Gordon's mistress. She plays
a larger role in the video game Saw Too Flesh
and Blood, where she is targeted by Jigsaw. Okay, so
Jigsaw is actually not team Carla Song.

Speaker 3 (01:40:12):
Let's find out why damn?

Speaker 1 (01:40:14):
Where she is targeted by Jigsaw for stealing vital pharmaceuticals
and selling them on the street for profit. She is
found by Michael Tap. So this is like, is this
a prequel? She's found by Michael Tap with her arms
secured to the ceiling of an elevator shaft and her
legs secured to the roof of an elevator. Oh my god.
Michael is tasked with completing a test in order to
release her safely. If he fails, the elevator will lower

(01:40:36):
and tear Carla in half. It is revealed that she
is a part of a criminal conspiracy. Carla.

Speaker 3 (01:40:43):
Oh wait. Stanny Glover's character's name is David Tape.

Speaker 1 (01:40:48):
So who is Michael?

Speaker 3 (01:40:49):
Maybe Michael is.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
His brother's brother. Tap is a very specific Okay, wait, Michael,
Who the hell is Michael Tap? This is so awesome.
He No, Michael Tap is Detective David Taps a strange son.
There is the Saw universe. Don't underestimate it. You think

(01:41:14):
Carla Song was a throwaway character, Well I did too.
Guess what. She gets ripped in half by an elevator.
She was not forgotten by Jigsaw, and.

Speaker 3 (01:41:22):
That's why the Twists and Saw are the best in
the business.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
She shows up in a video game five years later.
Are you joking? The most brilliant cinematic universe ever created.
Last female character that also Amanda, survives. I do think
we have. We have a lot of mostly white survivors. Yeah. Yeah,
and they are mostly women, which is good. And they

(01:41:46):
do all I think eventually die because it's so you
just give it a couple of years. They their days
are numbered. Diana, I actually don't know what happens to her.
There's there. Maybe there should be a reboot. Maybe that's
maybe that's what I do. Maybe that's what I'm working on. Oh, okay,
is they're alive? Okay? So all I have to say

(01:42:11):
Amanda is our last female character, and I think our
last character that we haven't really discussed very much.

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
Right, which I think will be a conduit by which
we can I.

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
Mean, we're approaching the two hour mark. Dreamie.

Speaker 3 (01:42:25):
I've been recording for one hour and forty eight minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
Okay, the Glaucus took. The clock is ticking, and at
the end, Fleet tears his own fur off and it
turns out it's Jigsaw.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
Oh what a twist.

Speaker 1 (01:42:45):
Okay, So Amanda, Yeah, Amanda is an interesting character. I
feel like, for as much as I love talking about
the Socks Bandit universe, let's just talk about her in
the context of this movie, because in the subsequent movies
she turned, she becomes an association, comes like one of
Jigsaw's minions stream Rise of Grew.

Speaker 3 (01:43:06):
Well, do you think she's more of a Kevin or
more of a Stuart or more of a Bob.

Speaker 1 (01:43:10):
Oh, that's a good question, Thank you for asking. I
would say she's not She's not a Kevin. I wouldn't
say that she's like, well, no, actually she may. She
may be close to Kevin because she does have leadership
qualities later on, but she doesn't need to be in charge.
But she is kind of the head minion. And that's
how I would describe Kevin. I think she's got a
little bit of Kevin energy.

Speaker 3 (01:43:29):
Sure, because Bob is like the baby one.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):
Bob is the baby. Gotta love him. Stuart is the
rebel and the rock star. Kevin he is he's funny,
but he's you know, but he's the one that picks
up the phone. Does Kevin le Mignons such a good
part Bello, It's so funny. Amanda. I think is interesting

(01:43:57):
because she is the only woman in the movie whose
steaks are not directly tied to Carrie el Was. She's
like the only woman who stands on her own as
a character, which kind of bears out throughout the franchise
because the other women don't come back. She does as
Kevin le Mignon. But I also think that it's like,

(01:44:19):
I don't know that she's necessarily treated in a I
don't know, what do you think. I didn't think she
was treated in a particularly gendered way by Jigsaw. I'm
more an issue with how they were treating her character
as a recovering addict.

Speaker 3 (01:44:32):
I agree, although her bear.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
Drop on the head doesn't feel particularly gendered to me.
It just feels like, Hey, don't do that to.

Speaker 3 (01:44:40):
Me, because she's only in one sequence and it's in
a flashback where she doesn't really interact with our main characters.
My main note about that was, why do the detectives
have Lawrence watch her testimony.

Speaker 1 (01:45:01):
Amazing question.

Speaker 3 (01:45:02):
If he's a suspect, that does I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:45:05):
Ultimately, Danny Glover is estrange from his son for a reason.
He's bad at his job, and I wonder, I guess
that if you play the video game wrong, Danny Glover's
son is also a bad cop because Carla Song gets
torn in half by an elevator.

Speaker 3 (01:45:20):
Oh shit, yeah, yeah, so my when I was examining
the Amanda piece of the puzzle, if you will, if
we're looking at this movie as if it's a puzzle,
uh huh, why would the detectives have Lawrence watch her testimony?

(01:45:41):
Doesn't make any sense? Good question, But yes, I don't.
Nothing pinged for me as far as like the treatment
of her character seems sexist. But yes, and again we
are trying to examine the logic and morality of Jigsaw's
code of ethics, which often doesn't make much sense.

Speaker 6 (01:46:07):
Yeah no, but I think the movie approaches He's chaos kadochy.
I maybe would have to see more of the rewatch
more of the franchise, But I wonder how much of
this story is the filmmaker's asking the audience to be
like well, yeah, these victims, like they're sort of deserving

(01:46:30):
of where they're at, and whether or not they managed
to escape is going to sort of determine, like and
like how they feel about if they've you know, reevaluated
their life, if they're gonna be like deserving of a redemption.
So I'm not really sure where the movies land on,
Like I.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
Feel like it is kind of like left up to
you because it's like, I don't know, I mean, it's
like one of those things where we were like, well,
no one's leaving the theater, being like Jigsaw was one
hundred percent correct, but except for except for the people
who were are on a list. But I don't know.

(01:47:09):
I feel like it's supposed to be ambiguous in a
way that I think is like kind of interesting. And
the more time that goes on, I think the more reads,
whether it intended at the time or not, kind of
become possible for the modern saw connoisseur.

Speaker 3 (01:47:25):
Sure if you will.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
I wanted to say something really quickly about the guy
who designs the saw traps, so Saw one, you don't
they're all it's such a I mean, this movie was
made for a million dollars, which is wild because you're like,
isn't that just like how much Danny Glover would make
for showing up? Apparently it was a labor of love.
Carrie Elle Was and Danny Glover both very big stars,

(01:47:49):
Danny Glover more so, but Carrie Elle was, you know,
a well known actor, like kind of wild that they
were in this Australian movie by two twenty five year olds. Also,
but I think that that's beautiful. I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:48:03):
Yeah, I also like I don't know enough about like actors' salaries.
You hear about like Tom Cruise gets twenty million dollars
for every mission Impossible movie, and then I think people
assume that like most stars make that on every movie
there is sure, but I feel like, you know, like
not as bankable of stars, and like character actors and

(01:48:25):
stuff like make a far more modest living, you know,
and like I think Glover pretty bankable, pretty bankable for sure,
But I don't I don't know, I don't know how
much she was paid for this anyways.

Speaker 1 (01:48:37):
I wonder if he was kind of like in a
I don't know, or maybe it's one of those one
for me, one for them, and the one for me
is saw could be Saw one two thousand and four. Yeah,
that would be the one for me. Uh, make no mistake.
What else was he in around this time? Yeah? I
guess that this wasn't like a.

Speaker 3 (01:48:54):
Well, his heyday was more in like the eighties with
like lethal weapons.

Speaker 1 (01:48:58):
Eighties and nineties. Yeah. So he's making his indie comeback
and Saw one, and I think he I mean, his
character is so weird, but I always love watching Danny Glover,
So there you got. I mean. Yeah, So, anyways, Saw one,
the budget is very low. James Wand literally makes the
Jigsaw doll himself with paper mache. Kind of amazing. Saw

(01:49:18):
two and onwards. I believe they get a guy to
design the traps, which is really cool. They have this
art director who comes on Saw two through five, which
is where all the iconic ones are. His name is
David Hackle. I just wanted to give him a quick
shout out because he designed some of the most horrific
shit I've ever seen in my entire life. They describe

(01:49:40):
from Saw too the pile of needles that I remembered.
He and his department had to spend two weeks with
one hundred and twenty thousand syringes individually removing the needle
and replacing it with something that wouldn't hurt the actor.

Speaker 3 (01:49:55):
Whoa, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:49:56):
What the craft, the raw craft been of the sawt
franchise iconic. It's iconic. Blow, it blows one's mind, not
to be underestimated. In conclusion, I think this is an
amazing movie. I love that it launched James Wand's career.
There are I mean, it's It's also rare, unfortunately in

(01:50:20):
Hollywood filmmaking for an Asian director to be making movies
on this scale. But again, this movie kind of isn't
on this scale. He only is making Aquaman movies now
because he, you know, was up till four in the
morning in Australia making a little jigsaw at his house.
I think it's inspiring. Yeah, it makes me want to

(01:50:41):
be better.

Speaker 3 (01:50:42):
It's the kind of inspiring thing that again would be
on Viola Davis's Instagram feed.

Speaker 1 (01:50:47):
It's true and apparently this was like Saw was. Also
there's something called Saw zero point five which I've never seen,
but I guess this was like similar to what we
do in the Shadouts. It was a short film they
made that was then turned into a few, so that's
how they got a million dollars to make the feature.
What they made a Saw short and that's why Lee
Wannel is in the movie is because he was in

(01:51:09):
Saw zero point five.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
Right, Yes, I did read that on scholarly journal Wikipedia.
I have a quick list of just kind of stray observations.

Speaker 1 (01:51:20):
Okay, I'm gonna just to the listeners. It is almost
two hours, but we'll edit it well.

Speaker 3 (01:51:27):
Ed recording a hour.

Speaker 1 (01:51:30):
And what are yours? I want to know your strays.

Speaker 3 (01:51:35):
Okay, real quick. I appreciate that there is representation on
screen of men being really bad at throwing and catching
because they are tossing around keys, tapes, saws, cigarettes, lighters,
photographs and the only thing that either of them actually

(01:51:58):
catches is one time when Lawrence catches the tape player.
Everything else they throw and catch terribly. It's bad, and
I thought it was hilarious to watch. Another thing, Adam
does not wash off his hand after sticking it in
the toilet bowl, which seems to be full of liquid shit.

(01:52:18):
There was like clean water in the toilet tank, but
he does not clean off his hand and he just
keeps it all poopy for the rest of the movie. Disgusting, horrible,
Alison runs so slowly to her daughter's room when she
hears Diana screaming when she's being abducted, she does a
brisk walk. Shout out to the diorama that mister Saw

(01:52:44):
aka Jigsaw made of the bathroom escape Room So funny,
which we see.

Speaker 1 (01:52:51):
Are you up to well? Are you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:52:54):
I like to think that James Wand also made that himself.
He was like, I just need this.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
Honestly, not unlikely based on what I have heard and
read about this movie. Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:53:07):
Shout out to the line where Adam says, my last girlfriend,
a feminist vegan punk, broke up with me because she
thought I was too angry.

Speaker 1 (01:53:19):
And then you're like, okay, time to kill him. Yes, exactly, Okay, Jigsaw,
game over Slam done.

Speaker 3 (01:53:26):
There's a part where Danny Glover yells at Zepp. Also
the fact that there's a character named Zepp. So Danny
Glover says, I'm going to kill you, you sick ass hoe.

Speaker 1 (01:53:40):
Amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:53:41):
Okay, here's a fun thing I rewound.

Speaker 1 (01:53:46):
Maybe that's not.

Speaker 3 (01:53:47):
What he says, but it sounds sound.

Speaker 1 (01:53:49):
No, let's just say, let's just say it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:53:52):
Carrie you Willis plays a doctor in the movie New
Years Eve, and I like to think that he's playing
the same character in that movie and in the Saw movies.

Speaker 1 (01:54:07):
Because he lives right, he cauterizes world right.

Speaker 3 (01:54:11):
Oh my gosh, he has a prosthetic foot. So I
think that the Saw movies and New Year's Eve take
place in the same universe.

Speaker 1 (01:54:18):
I believe that. Okay, I'm in, I'm in.

Speaker 3 (01:54:21):
I had a quick question did escape rooms exist before
the movie Saw, because they didn't really become popular until after.
But I goog I did some research and it turns
out kind of the first like modern escape room with
something called True Dungeon in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. It premiered

(01:54:44):
in July two thousand and three, but they didn't become
popular until like the twenty tens. I would say, and
I wonder if Saw help popular.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
You have to imagine escape rooms Saw how a hand
in it. I think so, if not Patient zero. I
also wanted to shout out the guy who plays Zep
was on Lost, and then once I learned that I couldn't.
I didn't notice at first, but then on my rewatch
and we're like, wait a second. I was forced to
watch Lost ones He's on like a lot of the show.

Speaker 3 (01:55:15):
He's definitely in Lost. Also in Lost is ken Ling,
the actor who plays Yes Detective Sing And I was like,
is the whole cast of Lost in the movie Saw?

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
And if so, did jj Abrams just watch Saw and
be like, Now, this is a hell of a cast
because Lost premieres in late two thousand and four. So
what do you think about that? The jj Abrams James Wanstan,
I would believe it. I hope so he knows what's

(01:55:46):
good for him.

Speaker 3 (01:55:46):
And then my final thing is The soundtrack of the
movie Saw was reviewed by Johnny Loftus AH.

Speaker 1 (01:56:01):
And five stars. Right, Okay, it's my pseudonym. This is hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:56:07):
Johnny Loftus of AllMusic gave the soundtrack of Saw three
out of five stars, AH, saying that the composer whose
name is uh oh shit Klauser, don't know his first name.

Speaker 1 (01:56:22):
Though, Look, Hans Zimmer couldn't do it. Hans Zimmer couldn't
make it happen the way that whoever this person is.

Speaker 3 (01:56:30):
Yeah, so the composer of the Saw score quote really
nails it with his creaky clammy score, which makes you
think that if he thinks he nails it, why only
three out of five stars.

Speaker 1 (01:56:43):
That shit makes me so mad when someone writes you
essentially a good review and then they're like, I give
it a C minus and you're like for what.

Speaker 3 (01:56:51):
Yeah, who were you said you liked it?

Speaker 1 (01:56:54):
Scottish theater reviewer or whomever sounds like you liked the
show in you'd give it three out of five stars.
Table flip unbelievable. Johnny loftus Johnny Lofts, It's interesting that
you would say that when Jigsaw is still at large.

(01:57:14):
I'll say that, what are you implying je or is
it Johnny Lofts Jigsaw Lock.

Speaker 3 (01:57:26):
Jiggy Jiggy Loft. I'm sorry that I just made you
spit out your diet coke.

Speaker 1 (01:57:36):
It's all right, it's He'll be okay. Oh boy, well
would you look at that. It's time for me to
cut my foot off. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:57:48):
Oops, we did record for two hours and six minutes,
so we both have to cut our feet off.

Speaker 1 (01:57:53):
There's someone at the door and it looks like the
game might be over.

Speaker 3 (01:57:56):
The game is over?

Speaker 1 (01:58:00):
Can we start playing that? At the end of every app.

Speaker 3 (01:58:05):
Game over slam and then the episode's over.

Speaker 1 (01:58:09):
That's basically how every That's how every podcast episode should
game over slam. Oh god, okay, So does this movie
pass the viable test? I don't think so there's okay,
hang on, Okay. So Diana goes to her mom's bedside

(01:58:29):
and Allison says, are you okay?

Speaker 3 (01:58:32):
Can you hear me? And Diana says mommy, and she says,
what is it, sweet pea? But then she's like, there's
a man in my room. And then I talk about
the man in her room for a little bit, and
then she's like, I want Daddy to get the scary
man away. So that one is up for debate because
it starts out passing, but then the ultimately the conversation,
the whole conversation is about the scary man, and then

(01:58:53):
Daddy's saving them.

Speaker 1 (01:58:55):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:58:55):
There's another interaction later on where Alison is like, I
need you to be really really strong for me, but
like Diana's just kind of like crying. And also the
context is like they're scared because a scary man has
abducted them and might kill them. So I feel like,
probably no. But there is some interactions and.

Speaker 1 (01:59:17):
There's some healthy debate over on Bechdel test dot com
about whether this passes. There's like two people go absolutely
going at it in the comments, trying to decide whether
those two scenes you just describe constitute a past or not.
I'm gonna say it doesn't constitute it. Unfortunately, I agree. Yeah,
I look, it's a flawed metric and yeah, but it's

(01:59:41):
also not a feminist movie. Like you know, this movie
is an ally to no one because it's about Jigsaw,
who is an ally to no one. He has no
love in his heart except he does, except he practices.
I feel like he does. Jigsaw is the bad side
of wellness culpture because he's like practice gratitude, but he
absolutely diabolical, scariest person in the world, but always screaming

(02:00:04):
about gratitude. Okay, nipple scale who tough?

Speaker 3 (02:00:09):
Wow, I feel like this movie defies the scale.

Speaker 1 (02:00:13):
I honestly kind of did too.

Speaker 3 (02:00:16):
I mean, there's not that much that made me feel horrified.
From a representation standpoint, I felt horrified.

Speaker 1 (02:00:25):
No, it's mostly I mean, especially for a movie of
this era, I was expecting to us to have way
more non ambiguous bad shit to talk about it because.

Speaker 3 (02:00:34):
It was this era. I feel like especially that regardless
of what the movie was about or what genre it
was in, you would just have characters randomly dropping homophobic slurs,
making racist comments seemingly randomly, like just absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:00:53):
Needless on one in one El's.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):
Watch, certainly not so not that that one.

Speaker 1 (02:01:00):
Except for that one disparage and comment from Adam. I
think that that was.

Speaker 3 (02:01:04):
Literally the feminists are angry.

Speaker 1 (02:01:06):
But that was like and also that character sucks. So
I could also see it being like, oh, here's a
reason to not like this guy.

Speaker 3 (02:01:12):
Yeah, and he presumably dies at the end. We're not sure.

Speaker 1 (02:01:16):
I don't think he does in the universe, but who does.

Speaker 3 (02:01:19):
Ultimately, Okay, I think I just need to give this
like a.

Speaker 1 (02:01:25):
Is it like a two nipples? It's so hard because
you're like, but I don't, Yeah, I guess, yeah, I
guess I'll just go right down the middle. I'll say
two and a half. There's nothing wrong. But it's also
not like its mission is not to further a discussion
of anything, except like.

Speaker 3 (02:01:45):
I beg is a feminist masterpiece.

Speaker 1 (02:01:50):
I mean, that is kind of what I believe, but
I know that it's bad practice to say so, and
it will decrease my credibility in the eyes of a listeners. Ultimately,
I do think that this is still one of my
favorite movies. I had no.

Speaker 3 (02:02:04):
Idea you were so into the Sauna verse.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
It's weird because I really just like Saw. One is
such a classic and it's not like a comfort movie.
But I watched Saw about like once a year. I
enjoy Saw quite a bit, and I love James Wand
And the more I feel like James Wand I got
really into late last year because I was working with
Sarah Marshall on something about the couple from the Conjuring movies,

(02:02:29):
and so I got deep into the Wanta verse. And
those movies are not good, but I still love James
Wand So what can you do? I would get this
movie two and a half nipples and five hundred little jigsaws.

Speaker 3 (02:02:41):
Oh oh yeah, what was I thinking? Yeah, a five
hundred piece jigsaw puzzle.

Speaker 1 (02:02:47):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (02:02:47):
See, I'd give it a thousand pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

Speaker 1 (02:02:53):
I really want there to be more jigsaws.

Speaker 3 (02:02:56):
Here's what I'm going to do, because you gave me
an idea just the Saw movies for my movie marathon
this Halloween season. I'm going to do Hallo Wan and
then we can watch more Lignan again because I've never
seen Insidious. The insidious movies.

Speaker 1 (02:03:12):
Insidious is pretty fun. I say, let's I would advocate
for us watching Conjuring one and maybe then calling it
a day. By the time you get to the Conjuring
the Devil that made me do it, you're like, this
is too much, too much, too much. But we could
watch Annabelle because that's pretty good. I was not James
want directed. But this is part of the Wanaverse, part.

Speaker 3 (02:03:34):
Of the universe. Yeah, exactly. Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:03:37):
And then he's got the new Aquaman coming out at
some point, question mark, I don't.

Speaker 3 (02:03:42):
Know, true well anyway.

Speaker 1 (02:03:45):
And I love that Lee Wandell, Like I really enjoyed
the Invisible Man. I didn't realize that it was Adam
from Saul question why? Good shit. Also, they're such good
friends that Lee Wannell had a cameo in Aquaman. Oh
is that cute?

Speaker 3 (02:04:00):
That is very cute. I like that they're still friends.

Speaker 1 (02:04:03):
It's cute. Okay, Well, Caitlin, thank you for talking about
Saw with me for my birthday. I love Saw.

Speaker 3 (02:04:12):
Hey, happy belated birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:04:15):
It's it's over now, but look but but but I
live on until Jigsaw gets me. What an amazing movie.
I had a great time listeners. We hope you had
a good time, because we sure did.

Speaker 3 (02:04:30):
We sure did.

Speaker 1 (02:04:32):
Please found off in the comments with what I'm sure
was me getting canon incorrect. Let's discuss if anyone has
a baby Jigsaw doll. I do have buyer's remorse for
not getting it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:44):
Wait does such a thing exist already?

Speaker 1 (02:04:47):
Some sicko on Etsy made baby Jigsaw and I failed
to buy it, and then when I went to check,
someone else, bafflingly had purchased it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:57):
So it was just like a one time one done
and want it done.

Speaker 1 (02:05:01):
An independent creator, an artist made baby Jigsaw and I
fucked up, and I was like I would be afraid
of that, which I would have been, but it would
have been nice to have.

Speaker 3 (02:05:12):
Wow, I know, I know. Okay, that is the end?
Uh or that's where we're cutting out of the Matreon episode.

Speaker 1 (02:05:24):
Kaeln Yeah, Jamie, Oh wait how much how much time
do we have? Less?

Speaker 3 (02:05:28):
We're definitely over two hours?

Speaker 1 (02:05:31):
No?

Speaker 3 (02:05:32):
No oh, no, here comes someone. Hi, it's me No Jigsaw.

Speaker 1 (02:05:39):
No wait, Jigsaw, just make sure first before you kill us.
Please subscribe to the Matreon. Please cut a patreon dot
com slash bectl cass if you enjoyed this episode and
get over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes not available
on the main feed for the low price of five
dollars a month. Jigsaw please oh consider it.

Speaker 3 (02:05:59):
But but since the episode was over two hours long,
guess what what? Game over?

Speaker 1 (02:06:09):
Swam Bye Bye.

Speaker 3 (02:06:25):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch
is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(02:06:47):
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