Say Anything

On this episode recorded live in Portland, Caitlin and Jamie *say everything* about the movie Say Anything. Here's the link for the 'You Must Remember This' series on Polly Platt: https://www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com/episodes/2020/7/pollyplattarchive28 

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On The Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and Beast start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Wow wow, wow Wow, look at us, We look at us.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
We're saying anything, Kitlin.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
One of the things I've always loved about you is
that you'll say kind of anything.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
You know.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I feel like there's a version of say anything that's
about like a shock jock. You know, this guy'll say.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
And he's not afraid to say it like it is.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
It's actually a Joe Rogan biopic title when you think
about it, because that man simply does be saying anything.
He really does, he'd be saying so many things. Welcome
to the Bechdel Cast. My name is jam Loftus and
my name is.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Kaydarante, and we are doing a little intro for a
show that we did live in Portland. So most of
this episode is the live show, and I think that's
kind of really all we need to say to introduce it.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think so yeah. I mean, we were in Portland, Oregon.
We were at one of our favorite places curious comedy
theaters support them if you're in the area. And we
didn't have a guest on this show, and that's because
we are special.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Weird, so strong and independent.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
We watched this movie and we're like, it's a love
story between a father and his daughter. We've got this one.
We've got this one, and we put on our little
outfits and we do do doot it out to stage.
And actually, what I will say before that, if you
want to see us do doot dude out on stage,
we are asking a bunch of tour dates for next

(01:56):
year coming up soon as well as in Los Angeles
on December tenth. If you're in town, we're covering It's
a Wonderful Life.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, at Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it?
On December tenth. Tickets for that are on sale. You
can grab them on our link tree, link tree slash
Bechtel Cast and uh yeah, stay tuned for more tour dates.
And also if you want to see us out on

(02:25):
stage for this specific show that you're about to hear
the episode for, Let's say you want a visual aid
or you just want to see more stuff because we
cut out some like fun and games from the audio
version of the episode, but that you can see in
video format you can buy on demand tickets. The link

(02:48):
for that will also be on our link tree.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
So yes, and we looked so so please enjoy that.
But but if you know, if you want to just
listen in the ca we had to stand and here
we are saying quite literally.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Any anything.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
The bedellcast.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
So before we started the show, I just want to
do some housekeeping. We've received some really excellent treats. I
feel like, Okay, first of all, we love being in
Portland so much. It's the city we have come to
most in the country.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, we.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Absolutely love doing shows here. We literally do shows here
more so than where we live. Yeah, it's we really
love it here. We we love get to hang out
with you guys here. And I will say consistently because
we were here earlier this year, and give it up
if you were here earlier this year, all right, welcome
back some returning friends. Yeah, and so you'll remember that,

(03:53):
you know, there were a number of hot dogs brought
and I threw a knife at the audience and Portland
did not a point this time around, because early I
gotta I gotta, I checked my other folder the other day,
and that's a dangerous place to be.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, yes, this is.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
But I got one of the most pleasant messages in
the entire world from a man named Julian from Old
Town Pizza next Door give it up for there, saying
what I have been waiting for someone to say to
me my whole life, which is, do you want a
hot dog pizza hot and ready next door?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
So I would like to present to you and offer
to the audience hot dog pizza like it's and like
you can if you're within fifty feet you can smell it. Yes,
does anyone want some? Okay? Wow, Okay, I'll give them
out during the recap. I'll come out into the eye.

(04:51):
We've got some plates. I just really want to spread
spread the joy here, all right, all right, okay, we're here.
It's a chaotic start to the show.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
It sure is. Yes, So thanks once again to you
for being here. Thank you so much. Give it off yourselves,
and give it up to the people watching the live
stream from wherever you are.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
They're like, oh, how stinky is that pizza? And You're like, oh, baby,
you have no idea. It is a stinky pizza. And
I mean that is a big compliment. Yes, yeah, so
has anyone here never listened to our show before? Oh?

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Oh, you raised your hand? A couple of hands coming up.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
This is really fun because I've never heard someone put
their hands together. It's just just a shameful, shaky race
of the hand. It's fine, Like, it's just a podcast.
It is not a big deal. It's probably you're like
mentally healthier than most of the people here. If you don't,
if you don't listen to podcast, it's fine. We should
we should tell we should let those three people know

(05:53):
what that is so true.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
We are the Bechtel Cast. We analyze movies through an
intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping
off point. Well, Jimie, what is that? Oh?

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I will tell you. It is a media metric created
by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test.
There's a lot of versions of the test, but basically
it was made as a bit in the eighties for
the incredible comic collection Dikes to Watch Out For. I knew,
I knew we would get a whistle for that because

(06:27):
Portland is cool. Yeah, there's a lot of versions of
the test, but our version of the test requires that
there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names
who speak to each other about something other than a
man for two lines of dialogue or more. We prefer
if it is an interaction of meaning. But I am

(06:48):
I was requested to make an exception for this movie specifically,
which we will get to. But yeah, that's our whole deal.
Do the three of you feel satisfied? Okay? Oh me
a really meaningful nod, yes, thank you king. We do
need the permission before we can move forward. Uh and uh,

(07:12):
today we recovered we've we've covered a lot of movies
from the Pacific Northwest. I know it's like technically disrespectful
to cover a Seattle movie here, so we do apologize. Uh,
but we are covering say Anything for this show. Who
here has seen Say Anything? Give it up? By round
of a par Yeah, hands, hands, folks, hands, all right,
all right?

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Who has not ever seen the movies? By round of applause. Guys,
it's not a second grade classroom. You get you can class.
It's fun. Okay, it seems like kind of halfway split.
So we're gonna have to do a really good job,
we're telling them what the movie is.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I guess, well, well, let's I think there's a halfway
split on stage as well. Because had you seen this
movie before?

Speaker 3 (07:54):
I had?

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yes, Okay, what was your history with it?

Speaker 3 (07:56):
I saw it in college, maybe even in high school,
but I don't know twenty years ago or so, and
not since I didn't feel compelled to watch it again.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Interesting? Interesting?

Speaker 3 (08:09):
And how about you, Jamie, what's your history with it?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Nothing? Nothing, I had not seen. Yeah, this is like
you know, I love Joan Cusack. So I was really
excited to see her in this movie. And then unfortunately
I did not really see her in this movie, which
was a letdown. No, I didn't. I didn't grow up
with this movie. I didn't have my dad had like
a unique dislike of Peter Gabriel. Oh, and so this

(08:36):
was just like never gonna make it into our rotation. Ever. Sure, ever, Ever,
I don't know what it was though, Like I should have.
I should have asked him before the show. But there's
sometimes there were just like certain is he British? Ah?

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Does Peter Gabriel British?

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Is my friend is nodding yes, and she's saying yes
audibly Okay, there are just like certain British people my
dad doesn't fuck with. Is that weird?

Speaker 3 (09:01):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
I don't know. Okay, well i'd never seen it and
now I have, and and I have some things to say.
I will say I do not dislike this movie. It's
it's a weird movie. There's a lot of weird stuff
going on. I was most tickled, thrilled and delighted to
find that Fraser's dad plays a major role in it. Yes,

(09:26):
I was shot. I heard his voice and there was
like a sense memory that shook through my body. And
he's in Seattle. I mean, hello, we gotta get Mahoney
in Seattle. Do you think someone saw Mahoney in Say Anything?
Was like, we gotta keep this guy in Seattle. He's
so Seattle. We gotta make him the dad of the

(09:48):
fanciest two boys. I just oh, I love as a
Fraser Head. I really appreciated his presence. Okay, so Say Anything.
It's a movie. It is uh. It's written and directed
by Cameron Crow. It's produced by James Brooks and poly Platt.
Give it for poly Platt, and you must remember this

(10:09):
head's in the house. Okay, not enough interesting. Interesting, But yeah,
it's from nineteen eighty nine, kind of a gen X
classic stars John Cusack, sort of Joan Cusack. Okay, Caitlyn,
I have Do you know how to say the lead
actress's name in this movie?

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (10:27):
It was a real Owen McGregor for me.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Oh yeah, because I really didn't.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
I didn't want to be the first to say her
name out loud, because I will.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
It's just a lot of owls. I meant to look
it up. It is spelled Ione.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Is that Owen M. MacGregor. I can't do it Eon? Ion?

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Does anybody know Ione?

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Unbelievable? Wow? All right, all right, we'll take your word
for it this time. Can you say McGregor just for me?

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Do you mean you and McGregor.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
I just don't know that my mouth can make that shake?
Can I wash your mouth? Can you do it again?

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Let me help you break it down. Yeah, you win,
you and McGregor. You win, McGregor, Ewan McGregor.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Close you you you win when you win, you win,
you win.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
We have to move on.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Okay, okay, all right?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Shall I do the recap? Are we ready for the recap?

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Caitlin's famous recap? All right, and while you do that,
just in the front hands up for who wanted I have?
I have three plates, so it's gonna be well, I
guess it's just you too.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
There's someone.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Oh that's oh okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, Caitlyn, don't
worry about it. Don't worry about I'm just servicing my community, all.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Right, Okay. It's the day of high school graduation for
Lloyd played by John Cusack. He is telling his two
best friends, who are women, what their names are, Corey
and DC. He's telling them how he wants to take
a girl named Diane Court out on a date. And

(12:37):
Lloyd's friends are basically like, good luck with that. She's
too smart for you. Because Diane Court played by Ione
sky Eman McGregor, she is the valedictorian of her class.
She gives a speech a graduation. Lloyd is like a wooga,

(12:59):
what I he.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Literally is doing? He's he's really doing the cartoon wolf
thing in uh in in that where he's like talking
over her speech, which we were talking about as we
were watching it today. It's one of those incredible movie
moments where she gives a speech that I think is like,
inarguably mid like, oh, it's like gen X's nonsense. It's like,

(13:24):
aren't you scared about the future? Me kind of scared
about the future. And then all the kids are like,
oh my god. Kurt Cobain like you're just like what
the fuck is she talking about? There? What is she saying?
And then later at the party, everyone's like, really cool speech, Diane,

(13:45):
and you're like that speech was that was like a
second draft at best?

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, you know, it was a flop.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
I would say I really wish that she gave one
of those like really incredible high school valedictorian speeches that
always like the cadence of them is so beautiful to me,
where it's like, hello, students, my name is Diane Court.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Wow what a year? Uh huh twenty ten? Are you
resigning your own graduation speech?

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Jamie?

Speaker 1 (14:16):
President Obama. He didn't become the president this year, but
he did while we were in high school. I have
so many good memories of it, Like, I love high
school valedictorian speeches and hers was garbage. Yeah, And then
meanwhile John Cusack is screaming over her, being like look
at our eyes, and you're like, wow, I hope they

(14:39):
end up together.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yes, Okay, So Diane's dad aka John Mahoney aka Fraser's dad,
he is so proud of Diane. He gives her two
graduation presidents. One of them is a car and the
other one is an engagement ring.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Her dad is trying to like Fraser's dad is trying
to marry his daughter. The whole movie, it.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
Does really feel like that.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
It's very bizarre. The car, You're like, Okay, this is
like kind of a classic. I mean, it becomes plot relevant,
but like it's sort of a classic, you know, like
upper middle class moment. But then when he sort of
proposes to her later where he gives I'm like, imagine
your father giving you a diamond ring.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah, I know, I could not imagine that. And then
he's like, your mom gave this to me as it
so his wife gave him a diamond ring.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, but we're not told what the occasion was. Also,
it doesn't I also like, I don't, I mean, whatever,
anyone can give anyone a diamond ring. Question. I don't
know why I'm fighting for this right. Give a ring
to whoever you want. But there's no way he and
his daughter are the same ring size.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
True.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
That to me was unbelievable. Yeah, and I was just
really focused on Yeah. It seemed like he really wanted to.
And anytime they're on screen together, there's this like romantic
music playing. Yes, You're just like, why are this strings
swelling when this father it's giving his teenage daughter a
diamond ring? Don't.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
I don't know, but it does happen in the movie,
so sure talk about it.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Sure does.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Okay, So then Lloyd calls Diane. Her dad picks up,
so Lloyd leaves a message. Diane then gets another call
saying that she won a fellowship to study at a
prestigious school in England. Ever heard of it?

Speaker 1 (16:40):
I love the vagueness of both the scholarship and the school. Yeah,
we don't know what she's going to do or where
she's going to do it, certainly not.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Diane calls Lloyd back and he's like, go out with me,
go out with me, come on, And she's like, I'm busy,
and he's like, please, please please about a graduation party
that's tonight and she's like, okay, you wore me down,
I'll go.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
And I think that scene is interesting in a lot
of ways because it's like she she later calls back
to this scene being like, why did you go to
the party with Lloyd? Because he made me laugh? I
didn't see I didn't see her laugh a damn time. Nope,
on that call, and I just you know, it's fine.
It's like she wanted to go to a party, she

(17:26):
wanted to get out of her you know, out of
her comfort zone. So okay. But and it's very funny
that she has to look up who he is in
the yearbook. In the yearbook, pretty humiliating for him. But
he does not he does not make her laugh.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
No, no, not on screen.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
And I do feel like that is representation of women
pretending that men are funny when or not. Yeah, there
is this incredible like I've done it. I've been guilty
of this. Like if you're like, if you're a woman
who dates men and and bless your heart, and you're

(18:06):
like filming them like for an Instagram story or something,
and they're doing something, and then I'm behind the iPhone
eight doing this menacing laugh right, like a breathy laugh,
pretending that someone's funny. It's disturbing she's I think that
that was representation of that, whether Cameron Crowe realizes it

(18:27):
or not. Cameron Crow probably thinks he's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
I'm sure he does.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, I'm sure he does.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
But is he anyway? Okay, so he picks her up
and they go to the party, and everyone there at
the party loves Lloyd, and he is also made to
be the key master. That's a thing. Diane meets a
bunch of people. Lloyd and Diane do not hang out
at the party at all.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, that is my worst nightmare is going to a
party thinking I have an ally and then being suddenly
left out to dry. Yeah, but they seem fine with
it whatever. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
The party ends, Lloyd and Diane drive around all night.
They're trying to give this kid a ride home who
does not know where he lives. They finally drop him off,
and then Diane is like, Wow, going to that party
was awesome. I finally feel like I fit in And
also you're a great date. But also you're basic.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
And I really liked that. That was She feels bad
about it later, but I was like, that's kind of
like the most metal thing Diane does in the entire movie. Yes,
besides bust her father for tax fraud. That's a spoiler there,
but but like that I really appreciated that because he
was so into it. And then she was like, I

(19:46):
don't know, maybe the parlance was slightly different then, but
she was just like, you're boring, you fucking suck, and
let's go out again.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Fine by me.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, he's dancing in the street. I think you know,
if we if we Bouchemmy test a lot of the
behavior of the John Cusack character. Yeah. Again, the Bouchemmy
test being if Steve Bouschemmy age forty five was doing
what the character in the movie is doing, is it
weird or is it still romantic?

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (20:19):
You Bouchemi does that. It gets it, doesn't it doesn't
bear out in his favor.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
No, certainly not. Okay. So then Lloyd goes to drop
her off and he's like, I want to see you
as much as I can before you leave, and she's like, okay,
call me. And then the next date is Lloyd going
to Diane's for dinner with her dad and some family
friends and they're like, Lloyd, what do you want to
do with your future? And he's like, I want to

(20:45):
be a kickboxer.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
But I is that like is that like nineteen eighty
nine DJ or ah or like ticked. I've been making
these TikTok videos and they're really gonna people are gonna
watch them any day now, I think.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
So, yeah, I'm clear because they're all like okay. And
then during dinner, a couple IRS agents show up accusing
Diane's dad of tax evasion. So now Diane is very upset.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
I think Frasier's dad, you know, kind of takes it
in the stride. He was like, excuse me, I'm having
a fucking party. I'm like, can you say that? Can
you say that to the I R S. You're like,
I'm busy.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
I don't know. So now the family is like going
through this turmoil. Diane is upset, but she and Lloyd
keep hanging out, and we see her at work where
she works at a nursing home that her dad owns.
Put a pin in that.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, Lloyd comes through. He shows them Cocoon on VHS. Yeah,
that's one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, I really. He's like, I've never seen it, but
you might like it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
It seems like the old folks love cocoon.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
So one day, Lloyd and Diana are getting coffee and
she's like, I'm just like really overwhelmed and I don't
think I can have a social life right now. And
they agree to be friends, but then he's like friends
with potential and we're like, that's not what she said.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, but it's really not what she said. But then
he says it and she repeats it back to him
because a man wrote this movie.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yes, And then there's a scene where he's teaching her
how to drive her new car because women don't know
how to drive. I don't know, and I mean, oh,
because you don't know how to drive.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, Unfortunately, don't awe me. I'm doing fine. I'm dressed
like Barbie for no reason. Oh, now that's patronizing. There
continue Why am I being so rude?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
I don't know. But they're in the car together and
they're smooching. They're just going up, and then there's a
montage of them kissing, and then they have sex in
the backseat of a car that is near a body
of water, and we're like, what is this? Jack and
Rose in Titanic.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
She literally says you're trembling, yeah, yeah, or she doesn't
say I mean, she says you're shaking. Because she's in
she lives in nineteen eighty nine, not nineteen twelve. They
don't use trembling anymore. But I was, yeah, I was.
I was bowled over and how similar the scenes are.
And we mutually agreed that even though this movie came

(23:53):
out in eighty nine and Titanic came out in ninety seven,
Cameron Crow is somehow ripping off Titanic. Yes, in this scene.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Absolutely yeah. And also let's just put a pin in
the similarities between Titanic and say anything. Maybe that'll come
back later. I don't know, hmm. Okay. So there's a
song that's playing in the car while they're having sex.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Oh, you sing it in your Eyes. I'll do the drums.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Uh No, number one I don't really know the words.
And number two I'm a bad singer. Okay, but it's
in your Eyes by Peter Gabriel. And she's like, listen
to it. It's a really good song. And he's like, okay,
I just busted and.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
That and that is always the answer to like why
are you trembling? I'm like, wow, yeah, you were there.
Like not to blame women, but like I think you
know why I'm trembling.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Uh okay. So Diane comes home and she's like, by
the way, Dad, I just had said.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh my god, Okay, we need to talk. Okay. I
know that, Like I've seen this movie praise repeatedly for
like wow, a positive like father daughter relationship for a
good chunk of this movie. But I's just like, okay,
im okay, Caitlyn, I'm gonna ask you a question. When

(25:27):
you lost your virginity?

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:30):
How long was it until your parents' news slash? Did
they ever know?

Speaker 3 (25:35):
My mom never never found out about the instance of
me losing my virginity, but she did found out find
out when I was sexually active when I was in college,
because she was like, you're getting a lot of UTI's.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's a great conversation starter. Go Lriie. I hope she
didn't even I hope she didn't even say hello.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
She's like, I have a question to ask you. Are
you sexually active? And I was like, yeah, did you?

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Did you Shaka?

Speaker 3 (26:16):
She was like, Fucky bro high fived me and.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
You chest bumped and then you guys exactly.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
We took like twelve shots of Jamison.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I told so I was trying to like figure out
my head, how weird is what happens in this movie
because I told my mom before I lost my virginity
that sometime in the near future I would hu but
I needed help buying a plane ticket, and so she

(26:53):
I needed to use I needed to use her credit
card to buy a plane ticket so I could lose
my virginity, and so she like it was like a hole.
It was like, you know, an FBI operation for me
to ultimately get a UTI as you were saying, and
find out I was allergic to latex. But there it's

(27:14):
I lived. But but what happens here? I feel like,
whether it's like before after whatever. In this scene, Diane
is coming home to her father, who is Fraser's father, yes,
making her Fraser's sister. Before she has like taken a
shower after losing her virginity, She's like, Dad, I have

(27:38):
to tell you something. I fucked John Cusack. And then he,
like to his credit, is like oh, because how do
you react to that? He doesn't slust shame her. He
doesn't say anything. He's just but he also seems to
find it we doesn't she say anything? He didn't. I

(28:06):
guess he doesn't, does he? He does not say anything.
He instead stares at her saying with his eyes anything,
which is, why are you telling me this before you've
take in a shower. I'd like, I just feel like,
you know, be as open with your parents as you're
comfortable with. But if you've just if you've just fucked
at any time, yeah, shower before talking to your dad.

(28:30):
And maybe that's old fashioned of me. No, I think
you want to walk in the house stinking of come
But I just I was just I was beside myself
and then and then that scene resolves by her being like,
I feel so much better.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, because she's like, I can say anything to you dad.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
It is, I mean, operates on my theory that the
central weird romance in this movie is in fact between
Rasier's dad and Diane.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
A dad and his daughter. His daughter is daughter.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
I just rewatched Mystic River and so I was like
mainlining my daughter for like seven hours or however long.
That movie is just Sean Penn swaling, My.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
God, why didn't you watch that?

Speaker 1 (29:22):
I was homesick, Fair popped it on.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
The point is, yes, if you've just been dicked down
in the backseat of a car, if you want to
tell your dad about it, fine, I guess, but take
a show.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
You gotta hit the showers, and your dad shouldn't be
like I don't know again, but like I would be
if I if I was sharing that information with my
with my one father, I would not want him to
be like thrilled, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
It.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
That scene really is going to stick in my craw
for a long time to come.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Let's talk about it for they're in a bit. In
the meantime, Diane has told her dad that she has
had sex. Meanwhile, sniffing the air, He's like, oh growth. Meanwhile,
Lloyd's friends find out that he had sex, and his

(30:18):
friend Corey is like, you have to do something really
romantic for Diane now, So he writes her a letter,
pouring his heart out to her.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Again an incredible moment because Corey reads the letter. It's
two sentences long. I love Corey. I think is like
my favorite character in the movie, and we'll talk about her.
I really adore her. But her function in most scenes
is to tell Lloyd he is awesome. Yeah, tell him
he's the most amazing person to ever be born. And
she reads this bogus letter he's written where it's like, Hi, Diane,

(30:51):
you are pretty I love you yeah, and loves Lloyd.
She's like, oh my god, She's like, okay Shakespeare and yeah,
she's just like her function is to gaslod up when
he's being you know, kind of just like.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
A guy exactly. Okay. So he sends off this letter,
but it's not long before Diane leaves for England to
go to uh school that we don't.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Leave to city, England to go to school subject.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
And so she's confused about what to do because she
loves Lloyd, but she decides to break up with him,
and she gives him a pen as a parting gift.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
She's a stone cold, which is also her dad's idea. Yes,
the breakup also her dad's idea.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Here's a little fun little story that relates back to
the person I lost my virginity with in high school,
which is like.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Government name gut No King.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
So I broke up with him at some point and
you got brave of me, and he was really heartbroken
about it. And I was so cold because he sent
me this like essay that he had to write for
English class and it was about how he was so

(32:24):
in love with me and he he cheated on me
back when I believed that monogamy was a thing. Anyway.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Wait, now give me his government anyway.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
So he sent me this letter and I proofread it,
made a bunch of like red pen marks, and I'm sent.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
It back.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Brutal.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's incredible. Yeah, did you return it to him?

Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah? Yeah, I said, here, we're all of you are
errors and grammar and spelling.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
That's the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life.
That's really exciting. Thank you, Thank you very mucham. Yes,
I got broke. I got the guy. I lost my
Virginia too, broke up with me because I was taking
up the time he needed to practice the saxophone. So
I guess you know, it takes all kinds.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, okay. So Diane has broken up with Lloyd. She
is upset about it. He's devastated. He's driving around in
the rain, he's trying to make sense of things. He's
kind of recording a podcast at one point he is,
and then he's like, well, let's see what some men
have to say about this. But they give him bad

(33:49):
advice on how to deal with that.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Including a jump scared Jeremy Piven, Oh, Jeremy Piven in
like a fedora, being like women are bitches, and you're like, whoa, okay,
very scary. Yeah, so he is.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
You know, he's driving around and having feelings. He tries
to call Diane several times. He's leaving messages, and then
we get the iconic scene where he goes to her house.
He stands outside the window with the stereo over his
head playing in your Eyes, which is the sign Blade
when they were having Sang and his Avis one hundred

(34:29):
us room. And then you watch the scene and you're like,
she doesn't even get out of bed, she just stays
in bed. He just stands there for a while.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Cut to inspiring hey militia of creepy teenage boys to be.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Like, oh, just show up, show up, She'll stay the
play loud music that's waking up the neighbors.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Okay, okay, so nimbi vibes.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Then we cut to Diane going to see this IRS
guy who tells her that they have proof that her
dad has been stealing money four years from people at
the nursing home that he runs. So Diane goes home.
She snoops around her dad's stuff and finds a huge
stash of cash.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
He thought he was going to fool the Valedictorian mistake
number one. She also at no point takes off her
diamond ring, even though it's clear that her diamond ring
was purchased with dead people money.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
So she confronts her dad, being like, you're a liar
and a thief and he's like, what's the big deal?
I did this for you.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
It's like, Fraser gets a lot of residuals. We'll make
up for it. It's fine.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
So she storms out, and then she goes to the
gym where Lloyd is trying to have a kickboxing career,
and she's like I want you, I need you, I
love you, and he's like, okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I really like that scene. It felt like very kind
of close to authentic of like how weird teenage doomed
relationships work, where he's like, are you saying this because
you want me or because you want someone? And then
he like thinks about it for a second and is like,
I don't want to know the answer to that question.
Can we have sex again? And you're like, you know

(36:29):
that is the referee response.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, yes. So then h Frazier's daddy gets sent to jail,
Lloyd pays him a visit to be like, by the way,
I'm going to England with your daughter and the thing
that I want to do for a living is be
her boyfriend.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Okay, so you know, let him cook because that's a like,
that's the idea of someone whose job it is to
be my boy boyfriend is incredible and there are no
benefits to it.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
No, you do not get dental.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
No, there's no dental for boyfriend. But I was like,
all right, cool, good for him.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Right, And then Diane shows up to the prison yard
and she gives her dad the pen that he had
that she had originally given to Lloyd.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, because like Lloyd, she's in love with her dad.
This scene also plays out very romantically and breakup scene. Yeah,
and Lloyd is like on the sidelines being like nice,
she broke up with her dad and now we can
be together.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
And then she and Lloyd go to England. There's a
scene where they're in the plane. She's a nervous flyer,
but he's like, don't worry, babe, I'll keep you safe
ding the end.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
The end and not say anything there.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Thank Shall we discuss, let's discuss, shall let's let's discuss.
Should we start with I don't know Diane and Lloyd
in their relationship.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yes, okay, so I okay with Diane. I is interesting
watching this movie because I feel like the way that
it's written, because I hadn't seen it, and based on
all of the marketing, based on like the most famous
image from the movie and all this stuff, you're led
to believe that like Lloyd is the you know, undisputed

(38:40):
protagonist of this movie. But like, I feel like it
is pretty clearly Diane and the way of like who
has the arc, who are we spending the most time with,
whose feelings changed the most over the course of the movie,
Like Lloyd is pretty like consistent throughout the Like I
don't think that he I mean, I think he does

(39:00):
grow and change a little bit. But like Diane's the
one who's really like going through it the entire movie,
and she's not, like I think that the you know,
the most famous images from these movies, like you, she's
not in it. And it feels like a weird example
of how it's it's not necessarily a fault of the
movie itself that Diane is kind of sidelined in the

(39:24):
way this movie is remembered, but the way that the
marketing is, and the way that it's publicly remembered doesn't
include kind of the most impactful character.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Right, Yeah, it treats Lloyd as if he's the protagonist,
and I think I wonder if that has anything to
do with like John Cussett going on to have a
more substantial career, the way the way that like many
male actors are like you get to have a career
because men are actually written parts in movies and women
aren't so much, so it's harder for them to become

(39:57):
like notable actors.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
But like it's frustrating because Diane does have like an interest.
I think she's an interesting character, and I think it
is just more what is focused on That feels weird
because there's a lot of interesting stuff with Diane. I
feel like she and I guess I don't. I don't
fully think I know how aware the writing of the

(40:21):
movie is of this, But it feels like Diane is
this like character. She's like a like brilliant young woman
who and the two main men in her life are
trying to like live their lives through her by their
own rules, and that is like the main thing that
she is struggling with throughout the movie. Is like she's

(40:42):
with her dad. She wants to you know, she loves him,
she wants to make him happy, she wants to meet
his expectations, but it doesn't quite match. And then with Lloyd,
she's repeatedly trying to set boundaries with him. Uh and
you know, timmy Fair, it does seem like she wants
to be around him and is doing what she things
she needs to do, but it's like she's just struggling
with the expectations of men she cares about for the

(41:05):
entire movie, which is an interesting premise, but it like
it just kind of bears out in this weird way.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yeah, in a way that I don't find very satisfying. Yeah,
I as far as like teen romance movies go, because
the bar is Solow and some of them are very
predicated on an extremely scary and predatory you know, lie
or bet or some kind of just like stalker situation.

(41:33):
This one feels on the less problematic side. Yeah, that's
saying something because it's still like, well, he's not respecting
her boundaries a lot of the time, and he keeps
kind of like being like, well, yeah, you just said
that you don't want a social life, and that you
just want to be friends, but what if we kiss
a bunch and then have sex in the back of

(41:53):
a car?

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Right? I agree that it was like Lloyd is not
the most respectful Boundaries character ever, but it also felt
like he is, Like it at least felt reflective of
reality enough, and like I remember having teenage interactions like
that and Diane. I don't know, I just feel like
Diane kind of gets lost in the shuffle sometimes in
a way that's frustrating. And then for me, like for

(42:16):
teen romance, it's really frustrating that Lloyd is not a
one hundred year old vampire, and so it's already kind
of like, so, why would I watch this? I don't understand.
Did that occur to you at any point? He wasn't

(42:38):
really a member of the Cullen family, I would say, yeah,
And so it is kind of challenging to get invested
in that romance.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
So why even set the movie in Washington States?

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Fucking exactly, don't waste my time. If it's in Washington State,
I'm assuming there is a level of immortality. There's simply
one of the characters. And I was really disappointed that
it did seem like they were you know both Mortal Mortal. Yeah,
and so that was that was a bummer, but but yeah,

(43:11):
I mean it's it's I think Diana is like a
really interesting character, but the yeah, the way she's treated
by the story is kind of I don't know, like
it's disappointing. She doesn't have any friends to bounce stuff
off of. Not that that doesn't happen in high school,
but I think like for the sake of the movie,
it would have been I think helpful for the audience

(43:35):
and good for just developing a character to have her
have someone outside of these two men in her life. Yeah,
to get an idea of who she is. It feels
like Princess. Like I feel like we talk about Princess
Leiah in the terms in terms of that where it's like,
here's this really interesting lead character who is a woman,
but we're only going to give her men to talk to.

(43:56):
We're not going to give her an interior life outside
of her really reationship to these men for reasons unclear.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Right, And then the movie does kind of address the
fact that she does she hasn't made any friends in
high school and it's because she sort of like secluded
herself or she didn't put herself out there, and this
party was like her first chance to meet people, and
now she finally feels like she like some people know her.

(44:25):
But then after she comes to that realization or she
has kind of like taken herself out of her comfort zone,
she proceeds to then get to know exactly one person
and it's a guy who's just extremely persistent at her.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Right. Well, that was I felt like there was promise,
and we have exactly because I think that in Lloyd's
I mean, in spite of the fact that if like
Lloyd has less of an ARC, we know more people
in his life and in his circle. We know his sister,
who is his actual sister, Constance. I think her name
is played by John Cusack. We know his best friend Corey,

(45:02):
we know his other friend DC. We know a number
of people in his life, and he mostly has close
relationships friendship family wise with women. But yeah, interm and
we get one scene between Lloyd's best friend Corey and
Diane that I felt like was really cool and promising
of like, oh, maybe they will become friends and that

(45:24):
would be a way to bring her closer to Lloyd
if you know, they become friends. But The only thing
that happens in that scene is like, is Corey does
the function of her character, which is to be like, wow,
wouldn't you say that Lloyd is like the most epic
awesome guy in the world. And Diane's like, hmm, you're
right about that, and then like that's that's the only

(45:46):
scene we get them together, which sucks because it's like
it's seeing like two interesting women just pass like ships
in the night, you know, on to more boring plot
points and you're like, no, stay talk about your feelings
on Roe v. Wade, you know, like give me something,
but they give me nothing.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
They don't.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, it's disappointing.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Yes, so I guess where I land on. It is
the romance. We've seen worse examples in teen rom coms.
But like you said, it's just her. It is Diane's story.
She feels like the protagonist to me, but it's all
about these men who are just kind of like inserting

(46:29):
themselves in her life or just like inserting their expectations
in her life, and she doesn't really challenge them very much,
and she's just like, yep, all allow it.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Well, it's not even I would I would say that
she does challenge it at different points, but she is
like doesn't successfully push out of it right in a
way that does. The script doesn't feel fully aware of,
like it's it's we're made to believe that like this
ending for Diane is kind of the best case scenario
when there I feel like are of opportunities for her
to push back more, make connections with other people, and

(47:04):
I don't know, I just feel like there were more
interesting things. And then also watching the relationship, I also
think the most interesting relationship in the movie also does
not involve Lloyd. I think the most interesting relationship is
I know, we've like talked a lot of shit about
it because he is trying to marry her. But like
Diane and her father's dynamic is really interesting, and I

(47:26):
feel like there is like a really I don't know,
I can't think of a lot of I mean, except
the entire series of Succession. I can't think of like,
I mean, there's not a lot of stories about like
a daughter getting to know like who idolized as a parent,
having that illusion completely shattered and having to deal with that,

(47:47):
Like that's a really interesting thing to explore, especially because
like Diane has really dictated the way that she has
lived and we know this about her because she says
it to Lloyd at seven eleven in which incredible detail.
I'm like, did they get stuff off the rollers? Like?
When did they get a white claw? Did white claw exist?

(48:09):
They're all these things right, Yeah, I had a lot
of questions. They left seven eleven, but they weren't holding
a delicious snack. That was interesting. Yeah, I went to
seven eleven the other night and brag, thank you, I
was on a date. It's like, I need to make
a stop to get candy corn in a buffalo roller.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
And sorry, that came up involuntarily.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
I just wanted to know what their order was there,
And that is my biggest problem with the movie.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
But the focus is more on well, what the thing
you're about to say? But then also the parking lot
moment where he was just like, watch out, there's glass
and he just kind of kicks it out of the way.
She walks around it, and then later in the movie
she's like, the reason I know that he's such a
good guy is that he didn't let me step in glass.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
That that was so okay.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Those scenes are so fun to watch because they are
like nonsensical and you can just imagine like Cameron Crow
at his like computer being like, yes, this is so good,
like this is what women require. He really thought he
was he was he was doing something there. I just

(49:38):
and it's like, I mean, truly the old A great
cinematic example of accepting crumbs is like, Wow, that guy
didn't want me to step on glass. I could see,
like I better let him follow me around like just
a real a real bummer. But yeah, I mean, I

(49:59):
think ultimate the more interesting relationship, if if this movie
absolutely has to choose, a relationship between Diane and a
man in her life is the relationship with her dad,
because in that same scene, she explains to Lloyd that, like,
it seems like part of the reason she feels so
connected to her dad is because she was put in

(50:19):
this through this horrible custody battle where she had to
choose which parent to live with. She chose to live
with her dad, she says, because it was easier. We're
not given any information, but I don't know. Maybe she
wanted to be able to see Frasier. She's like, she.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
Was like it felt like the safe choice. We don't
know exactly what she means by that, but that's that's
the only information we have.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
But it's like she's very like at a base lettl
very invested in making her relationship with her dad work,
which he seems to, you know, want he wants to
marry her. But like examining that felt more interesting to
me than this teenage romance. It just but I don't know.

(51:03):
And then you get a scene, one scene with Diane
and her mother and that scenms very What did you
make of that scene? Because to me, that was another
scene of like Cameron Crow sitting in a room probably
with his spouse, not asking her what women might talk about.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
This is one of the scenes I listed under the
does the movie past the Bechdel Test column? Yeah, because
there are a handful of interactions with women in the movie,
and one of them is this scene where Diane is
talking to her mom. Here's how it goes. They are
talking about her dad being a criminal, and then the

(51:47):
mom is like, no, I'd rather talk about you. I
don't even know if you've got a young man in
your life, and Diane and Cameron Crow's like yeah. Diane says,
what's more important than what's going on with dad? And
then her mom replies if we could just talk about boys,
everything would be so much easier.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
And you're like, well, that's back to back. There's this
scene is not going anywhere, and then the.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
Mom's new husband, I forget his name, he shows up
and then oh, I mean uh huh, and then he
he's like about to show up, so they start talking
about him, and then he shows up and cut to
the next scene. So I didn't like it, is what
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
No, And it's that's especially frustrating because that relationship like
never comes back, which is bizarre because the reason that
that scene happens is because Diane is going to her
mom to say, hey, dad is getting investigated by the
I r S. If the I r S comes to
your door, please say something nice about him, like and

(52:57):
she's and Diane like I and I really like I
feel for her in that because she's very invested in
like protecting her father. She very much believes he is innocent,
and so she's like and that's part of why she
like originally breaks off the relationship with Lloyd is because
she's like, I'm kind of like really focused on my
dad not going to white collar jail right now. Yeah,

(53:19):
And so it's like she's really spending a lot of
time trying to protect him, and we know that, Like,
I mean, I don't know how much the mom would
know about what's going on, but it seems like it
would be relevant to Diane's mother that Fraser's dad goes
to jail. Yeah, but she never comes back and we
never get any closure on like where that relationship was left,

(53:41):
or like any which is frustrating if we are viewing
Diane as like the protagonist of the movie, but it
just like leaves all of these loose threads in favor
of you know, watching Lloyd, I don't know, turn in
a circle. What does he even do?

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Well, he's kicking and he's punching, doing he kicks.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Well, let's let's talk about Lloyd.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Sorry, Well, first I spent the past like two minutes
trying to is it okay? Which Durst is it? Is
it Robert Robert.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Not Fred okay? So I'm always happy to answer that question.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
So basically, when when Diane is like, my dad innocent,
it's like how you respond to Robert first, Okay, I
was trying to make that joke. It has come and gone.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
It's anyway, if there's no point in arguing Robert Durst
is innocent anymore, because not only is he dead, he
was guilty. So just kind of a challenging time for me.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Sorry, but I found that the relationship with her dad
and just the dad character in general. His name is James, right,
Jim James Court, James.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I love that your last name is Court and then
he goes to jail. That's that's iconic writing. That's some
Larry gee Lee level naming of a character. I liked it.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, I found him to be maybe one of the
most nuanced characters in the movie because I guess he
just defies a lot of just stereotypes when it comes
to like dad characters of a teen girl of that era.
We already talked about the scene where she comes home
after having sex for the first time with Lloyd. He

(55:28):
is like, where were you? You didn't call, but he's like,
like he's in love with her. He's like, I want
to make sure you're safe, and then he goes he
like goes on to just explain, you know, I care
about your safety. It doesn't matter what you were doing.
And then she says, like, I was having sex, Dad,

(55:50):
and he's like, I okay.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
I would just be like, all right, can we talk
about this like after you like sleep, but they have
to talk about it now because it's a movie.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
And she's like, I'm just so eager to say anything
to you. A yay. But I guess, you know, a
typical dad character in a movie like this would have
a very like slut shamey response and try to like
exert all of.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
That either either a slut shamey response or like where
is he? I'm gonna kill him?

Speaker 3 (56:21):
That's my thune, you know exactly.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
I just watched mister Grimver. That's what he does.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
So he doesn't do that. He's just mostly concerned about
her safety because she doesn't she didn't call like she
always calls, right. And then there's a later scene that
also his behavior surprised me where she is saying that
she's not sure if she should take this fellowship in
England after all, and I will say, I guess going

(56:49):
back to the relationship between her and Lloyd, I was
because I didn't really remember how this movie pans out,
and I was worried as I was watching it this
time that she would be like, never mind, I don't
need to go to England. I've got my professional boyfriend
who professionally wants to be my boyfriend and.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
I and as that is not a paying position, I
will suppose I will have to support him in his
endeavor to be around.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
So I was really worried that like she was not
going to take the opportunity, and like pursuer education, she
does do it. He tags along, which you know, you
can feel about any which way, but I was happy
that at least she like went through with her plans. Yeah,
in any case, So she's like, I don't know if

(57:36):
I should go to.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
School, college, school, university to study question mark, Oh my god,
which again is like that's a really easy detail to
give and we were not given it. And I feel
like that if it was Lloyd, we would know what
he was studying and what he was interested in, because
we know that he wants to be a kickboxer, even
though that has no relevance to fucking anything. Diane's like,

(58:03):
you know, ambitions have a lot to do with the movie,
and we don't know what they actually are, right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Wonder if like Oxford University read it was like originally
that in the script and then they're like, don't besmircharge.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Your fucking mouth crow. That would be really funny. That
would be such a weird, uh weird antagonistic thing to
do in any case, Okay, I don't like fast times
at Ridgemont High.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
So she's saying she's not sure if she should go
to England, and she does kind of it seems like
she's implying, oh, maybe also one of the reasons I
don't want to go not only are you under criminal investigation, dad,
but also I love this guy. And then when he
finds that out, when when her dad realizes that she

(58:53):
loves him, he kind of pivots because prior to that
he was like, oh, he's not good enough for you.
He's always just kicking and punching, and you're too smart
for him. And then which is true, to be fair, true,
But then he like when she says I love him,

(59:13):
he respects the gravity of the situation, He respects her feelings.
He doesn't like try to question her feelings. He is like, oh, wow,
maybe I'm being like really selfish here, Why am I
fixated on this? Like I owe you an apology, he says.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
But then the one sentence we never hear it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Yeah, but and then a few minutes later he turns
out to be embezzling money from a very vulnerable group
of people. So so it's complicated. You know, some of
history's greatest monsters were pretty decent parents. And Fraser's dad, well,

(59:56):
Fraser's dad was a great dad, but he was a
retired Seattle So you know, they're this is a sort
of a through line. Thank you for your heads for
I was proud of making that connection as well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, I felt like it was a unique father daughter relationship.
But again, I don't know, I don't know. I feel
like coding it as romantic was so avoidable, and I'm like,
not even joking because like down to post production whoever,
I don't know off the top of my head, who

(01:00:32):
can pose the music? But what the fuck were they thinking,
like when they were like all right, all right, father, father,
all right, we're gonna need something a little sexy. Why
like some sort of like longing romanticizing?

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
The blocking is often weird, just the writing choice to
make her I'm sorry the way of your dad's have
given you a diamond ring.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
No, if your dad is giving you a diamond ring,
like you have to consider he could have been embezzling
money from old people. I think, I hope this is
a wake up call for anyone in this room was
received a diamond ring from their father. It's weird. It's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Weird choices were made all around. Let's talk about Lloyd
really quick, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
I Lloyd is an interesting character to be because I
do think that like I don't know, like Lloyd and
this movie have been through so many rounds of critical appraisal,
or I think this movie was pretty beloved when it
came out. I think Lloyd does sort of defy a
number of common rom com stereotypes with a male lead,

(01:01:49):
where like you're saying, there's no bet, there's no central lie,
but he still is pushy and still you know, push
past a lot of Diane's boundaries and is rewarded for
that behavior. And then on the other hand, you have
What I like about Lloyd is the fact that something

(01:02:11):
we I think very rarely see in teen movies, which
is that he has a close friend who is a
woman who he is not. Like there's no subtext of like, yeah,
she's in love with me, or I even in love
with her, Like Corey is his closest friend. And she's

(01:02:32):
an interesting character in her own right, but like there
is no like it presents the simple truth that men
and women can be friends. Yeah, in a way that
is like not you know, like longing coated or that
there's not this like deep heterosexual you know, physical pain

(01:02:52):
that comes with them being around each other. And then
on top of that that, like when that friendship is
presented to Diane, she's like, that's it's nice to meet
your friend versus like meeting that with extreme jealousy orich.
Just like all these tropes we very ordinarily see where
it just seems like Lloyd is a male character who
connects with women easier, which is nice, and that is

(01:03:16):
like not presented as a bad thing. And I also
like how Lloyd is from. Like Lloyd's parents aren't really around.
They're in the military in Germany, and you're like, well,
I don't like this sounds like that there.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Right after the fall of the Berlin.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Wall, and then their politics are not made clear, but
they're in the military in Germany in the eighties, and
uh so they're you know, out there, and so like
Floyd and his sister there there. You know, Floyd's sister
is a single mom, uh, there's no judgment passed on that.

(01:03:56):
I think my main issue is that they don't let
her be a character at all. She's just like vaguely
like shrill coded to do Lloyd. In the first she's like,
why can't you be an uncle and not a plane mate?
And he's like, you used to be fun. Yeah, But

(01:04:16):
but it was like he has like a I think,
like kind of like a latch key kid kind of
upbringing where his parents weren't really around, and I feel
like those characters are very often portrayed to be maladjusted
and not people to be around, and I like that
Lloyd sort of presents that upbringing in a way that
it's like he's generally a thoughtful person and I don't know,

(01:04:41):
like class wise and just upbringing wise, it's like not
something I was used to seeing. Sure, So I don't
know Lloyd. Lloyd was hidden miss for me, but I
do I was rooting for him, especially when he something
is so vulnerable about whipping a VHS copy of Cocoon,
where I was like, oh, he's really going for it. Yeah,

(01:05:02):
he doesn't know what he's doing, but he wants to
do something.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
And this is after and we have to wrap up
very soon. But this is after Diane has challenged him
for his ageist beliefs. Yes, and she's like literally calls
him out with that exact language. She's like, you're being agist,
and he says his ass down and then and then
he was like right, He's like, wow, you're really making
me reconsider and maybe I shouldn't be agist. And it's

(01:05:27):
not clear if he actually is like changing his mind
about this or if he just wants to bust.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Right. It's October and busted makes you feel good, Uh, precisely.
But but I mean, unfortunately, with due respect to men
in the room, I feel like, you know, it is
a fake it til you make it situation where it's
like I will make you repeat my politics back to
me until you somehow believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
And uh uh huh.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
And you know it's that's how I wear people down, yeah,
by talking about housing justice until they believe in it.
And that's how I've weaponized my vagina for good. The
other thing I like about Lloyd and I know we
have to move on, is there is a critical scene

(01:06:19):
where Lloyd is so he, like you mentioned, he is
recording a podcast. He's driving around in his car, recording
his thoughts on a cassette player for Corey, for his friend.
He's recording a podcast for an audience of one. It
is like kind of true crimey where he's like, I'm
in the streets and you're like, oh my god, I

(01:06:42):
know people who sound like not know. I've listened to
podcasts like that that the people are millionaires for saying
equally fucking nothing. You know, I'm in the streets. It's
duck out.

Speaker 3 (01:06:56):
Like he said something like the rain on my car
is APPTI. We're like, well, brilliant metaphor, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
When you think about it, I am I do him
christ like go off king. But when he is doing that, yeah,
like you you alluded to this in the recap. But
he says like, maybe I should talk to more men.
Everyone in my life is a woman, and you're like,
well that's going to be a non starter, but let's
see what happens and he But the movie bears that

(01:07:28):
out where it's like he goes to this group of
like guys is like high schools with any group of guys,
Jeremy Piven is there. If you're going to go meet
up with some guys, he'll be there and he'll be
wearing a little hat. But the list, I know, we

(01:07:50):
were both ready to get down as we were watching
it together because, uh, you know, he goes to this
group of men. They're hanging out at a gas station
talking shit about women, which which is beautiful, beautiful, right.
One says you can't trust them. They spend your money
and they tell your friends everything. And I'm like, and
is that a bad thing there? All you gotta do

(01:08:12):
is find a girl that looks just like her nailer
and then dumper. You know what's the mistake. You should
have dumped her first. That's Jeremy Piven. Diane Cord is
a show pony. You need a stallion man. Literally, Jeremy
Piven objectifying women. We hate to see it. But Lloyd
does not respond to this by being radicalized by these

(01:08:34):
like gas station losers ideas. He instead challenges it and
he's like, oh, that's interesting that you have all these
thoughts about women when women aren't hanging out with you
and you are at a gas station at night, and
that's awesome. I mean, like that exchange is really cool.
And then and then he responds and then like after
realizing that talking to men his age is a non

(01:08:58):
starter and that they hate women and don't understand why
he goes back to his friends who are women and
ask them for advice, and like, I liked that. I
thought that was cool.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Yeah, yeah, I you know, he does blame Corey for
Diane breaking up with him. Basically, she's like, I hang
out with too many women and it's your vote, Corey.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
This is your podcast for You'm yelling at you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
But I do like that the movie recognizes that all
the advice that the men give him is terrible advice,
and that yes, that Lloyd openly challenges.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Them absolutely, And then, uh, because we do have drap
up Corey, we'll we'll talk more about her. We'll do
we'll record more about her in a later time. But
Corey is the fucking coolest character in the movie. Do
we have any Corey heads in the house. Okay, she's
the best. I also feel like she's a very like,
uniquely nineteen eighty nine character where she is Lloyd's best

(01:09:59):
friend and she I feel like, I was like, oh,
the character closest to me in high school is Corey,
where she has had her heart broken by the same
loser repeatedly and is writing horrible poetry about it, and
like that is a very recognizable thing. I think that
like we'll sort of talk about later on about like
the way it's presented. But I just I really liked her,

(01:10:23):
and I felt like we were given some crumbs on
how she like on her her personal stuff towards the
beginning of the movie, where it's like there is this
one guy who later appears at a gas station being
a misogynist, so huge loss for her, but like this
this fucking loser who she's written sixty five songs about,

(01:10:44):
and who among us you know that, Like she eventually
kind of cuts loose because she realizes that like he's
a loser and a liar, and like I thought that
was a really interesting start to her care But then
the remainder of the movie, she mainly shows up to
tell Lloyd various plot points mm hmmm, and to tell

(01:11:08):
him he's cool. Yeah, and that's kind of the most
we get from her after like the thirty minute mark.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Yeah, it's true, very frustrating.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Yeah. The last thing I wanted to say is just
the production of this movie. It is like an interesting
movie production wise, but I wanted to just quickly shout
out one of the main producers of this movie, Polly Platt.
We've got a picture of her here, let's get it.
This is She's really cool. I would if you haven't
listened to the season of you must remember this about

(01:11:37):
Polly Platt, I would highly highly recommend it. It's so cool.
Give it up for her. She is. She had a
fucking incredible life, like she I mean, she was done
a huge disservice by show business. But this movie came
out during this sort of second surge in her career
where she was working with James L. Brooks. She worked

(01:11:59):
on this movie, she basically discovered Cameron Crowe and Wes Anderson,
so you're welcome if those are guys you like. She also,
iconically for everyone, discovered The Simpsons and handed it off
to James L. Brooks, So we wouldn't have the Simpsons
without Polly Platt. She's fucking cool. And she also appears
in a cameo in this movie, which is the next slide.

(01:12:22):
You can see that she is in the graduation scene,
so there she is. So yay Polly. And we'll link
to Karina Longworth's season about her when we release this episode.
But Katelin. Yes, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
I think maybe on a small technicality, but I would
say spiritually no.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Spiritually no, But it does pass between DC and it's
not a very impactful exchange. But between DC and Corey
there is an exchange in the record store where it
be the large context of the conversation is that Diane
and Lloyd had sex. Yes, which is, you know, not
passing the backful test whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
P and V.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
It doesn't pass. But Corey's talking over DC, and DC
is like, you never let me talk about anything. You
never let me speak. And Corey's like, oh, I'm sorry,
what do you want to say? And DC is like, well,
I forget. And that was impactful to me. Yes, that
passes to me. I can relate to that. I've had

(01:13:30):
many interactions like that, demanding yeah, demanding a platform and
then being like, oh, I have nothing to contribute.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
But generally, the few times that women do interact in
this movie, they are usually talking about Lloyd, they are
talking about Frasier's dad, They're talking about some other guy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
It's particularly this is disgusting, Joe, this is it's particularly frustrating.
In the conversation between Diane and her mom where there
is potential to talk about most anything, and they aggressively
only talk about men.

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
Right, Or the scene the one interaction between Corey and
Diane where they talk about Corey's ex boyfriend Joe for
a while and then Lloyd.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Yeah, but what about the most important metric to ever exist,
which is the Bechdel cast nipple scale?

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
Yes, a zero to five nipples based on sound. Examining
the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I think I'll
give this movie. I would say two nipples. I think
someone gasped. Is that what happens?

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
When you guys listen to this, They're like, they're like, Oh,
they're so wrong for that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
How could they were you expecting me to say higher
or lower? I made a mistake and this happens.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
Oh my god, No, this happens everything. This is why
like live shows are nuclear for us, because if I
look at you the wrong way, you're like, no.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
God, no, Well here's my reasoning. Yeah, sounds familiar, And
I'm judging this on nineteen eighty nine standards, and it's
like slightly less problematic than teen rom coms that came
out ten years later.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Yeah, for sure, there's that the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:25):
Father daughter relationship, while it is rife with a weird,
possibly romantic tension. I do I know two is wrong.
I'll go down to one and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Stop contributing. We'll never leave. Yeah, we got no, it
should be one point like six four.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Just because we have to wrap up. I will simply
say one and a half nipples, and I give one
to what's her name Antigony.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
What? Oh my oh wait, I get it, I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
Got it, sorry, Iony.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
Antagony. Okay, like this is.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
We gotta go, we gotta go. Mm hmmm, so Iony Sky.
And then my half nipple goes to Lily Taylor, who
plays Corey An Tikeny.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
I can't. I'm gonna give this. Yeah, I'll give it.
I'll give it, like, I don't know, one and a half,
maybe even a little one point two five something like that.
I think that. Yeah, Like, there are things that this
movie is I need to stop looking scared.

Speaker 3 (01:16:54):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
There are there are ways that this movie is avoiding
a lot of troopes that we see in the same
era and for decades after. But it is still doing
you know, the pushy thing. It's still doing that, giving
us an interesting central woman who is not allowed to
know other women or care about other women. And I

(01:17:15):
truly I do think that like the writing of the
father daughter relationship being so bizarrely romantic, is just a
demonstration that the writer does not know how to write
a healthy relationship between men and women, and I find
that weird. It's also I mean, I mean, it's nineteen
eighty nine, so but it's like it's it's not an

(01:17:37):
inclusive movie whatsoever. It's very much like a movie in
the white middle class in Seattle. There's no you know,
attempted inclusion in any way, shape or for him. It's just,
you know, it's it's a really white hetero movie. And
I'm going to give it. I guess I'll give it
one point two five and I'm giving them giving it
all to Antagony Beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Well that's our show.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Yeah, thank you for coming.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
Oh okay, that was the show. Thank you again to
Curious Comedy Theater, to Stacy who runs the venue, to
all the staff there, and to the All Jane Comedy Festival,
which this was the final All Jane Comedy Festival. However,
it was something that I was aware of since I
started comedy as just one of the few festival spaces

(01:18:32):
that was reserved specifically for women and fems. It was
very welcoming and cool, and it felt it was an
honor to do the festival and it's a testament to stacy.
So indeed, you can't go now, but you really missed out.
It was cool. You can't go to the festival, but
you can still go to Curious Comedy Theater, So check

(01:18:53):
them out if you're ever in Portland or if you
live in or nearby. And also just thanks to everyone
who came out to the show, who watched the live stream,
and then once again you can grab on demand tickets.
You'll see some of that extra stuff that we cut
out of the audio only episode.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
I think some of our best fits.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
Yeah, some really good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
One of our best on stage bits, you'll want to
see it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
A few things that we didn't get to in the
live show really quickly. I would be remiss not to
mention the guidance counselor showing up to the high school party.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Yes, why a trope we still have not gotten rid
of today. As recently as Books Smart, we still had
teachers showing up to the party uncritically. It is so
fucking bizarre. And also, I mean, to that point not
really fun live show talk, but I feel like really
encourages an unhealthy relationship between teachers and students. That kid,

(01:20:01):
you know, sort of normalized grooming tactics. So yeah, I
don't know the teacher at my high school that went
to parties was a groomer.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
Yikes.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yeah, teachers don't go to student parties if they're regular.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
Yes, And then we touched on this in the episode,
but I feel like it might be worth just saying
a little further. The gals in the movie, Uh, you know,
We've got Corey played by Lily Taylor. She's Lloyd's best friend,

(01:20:38):
mostly just characterized by being obsessed with Lloyd and also
being obsessed with the guy who broke her heart. She
plays all those songs that she's written on the guitar
about him.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
And I also, I mean I think that, yeah, speaking
to Corey's character, I think that a lot of people,
I mean, at least I was seeing just like what's
been written about this movie and what our audience said
after the episode was that a lot of people saw
themselves in Corey. And also like to the point where
it's like we would have even more people would have

(01:21:13):
seen themselves in Corey if she had been given a
proper arc, because I love like we were talked like
I think we talked about during the show, like it
is cool that she and Lloyd have a truly platonic
friendship between a man and a woman, something we never
ever ever get to see without it being like will
they or won't they? It never is like she I mean,

(01:21:34):
it is an issue that her defining character trait is
that she thinks Lloyd is a great guy. But I
do think it's cool that they both really like and
respect each other and it's a friendship and it like
and it's not presented as a threat or a will
there won't they? Or something that you know, even today
is still a pretty rare dynamic to see in movies.

(01:21:55):
But I think that, like again, we just have the
case with Corey because I like Corey's character a lot,
but we only see her really in spite of the
fact that if like we see her mostly talking to women,
she exists mostly in relations to men. Because I have
no issue with like writing torrid shitty poetry about a

(01:22:17):
horrible relationship, like you know, most people have done it
at some point. Sure, sure, but for that to be
like the only thing we get to know about her,
when it would it would have been so easy to
build out a friendship between her and Diana, between you
know her and and DC or like you know people
we see her with, but we don't know what the
friendship dynamic is other than hanging out all day and

(01:22:38):
being like Lloyd is slaying so hard today yet again?

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
Uh DC, a character who we know even less about,
Oh for sure. So that was not great and I
just wanted to take a little bit more time than
we had in the live show to examine that. But yeah,
that's our episodiode on say anything.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
And I think you'll agree we said whatever in that
is it?

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
We kind of said anything, but we also said everything.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
Wow. Whoa, Well goodbye? No wait, you can follow us online.
It's on Instagram, ed, still Twitter sometimes at Bechdel Cast.
You can sign up for our Patreon aka Matreon at
patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. Five dollars a month
gets you two bonus episodes a month. Yay, including access

(01:23:33):
to one hundred and fifty episodes of backlog. Of backlog
makes it sound like backwash, which makes it sound not good,
it's quite good. All bad.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
And then also check out our link tree for tickets
for the on demand video version of this Say Anything
live show, as well as our upcoming live shows that
were doing kinda anywhere everywhere, Say any say anywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
Say anything everywhere, all at once.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
That is that is so true.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
The people needed to hear my message. All right, Well, hey,
we will talk to you next week. We'll see you
next week.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
We'll see anything later, you later.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
It didn't work, Free Palestine, Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast
is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and
Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board.
Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals
by Catherine Vosskresenski. Our logo in merch is designed by

(01:24:52):
Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For
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