She's Gotta Have It (1986) with Kenice Mobley

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and
best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Jamie please, Jamie, please,
Jamie wait. Let' trying to get Jammy please, Jimmy please, Jimmie,

(00:22):
Jamie wait? How does it go? You have to get
the cadences an iambic pentameter is baby baby, please, baby baby?
I forget their order now anyway? Hi, Well, I'm dumping
you anyway, so it doesn't matter. Sorry, I'm dumping you
on the bridge. I deserve it, honestly, who in this

(00:43):
movie doesn't Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante, and welcome to
our I don't know where that was going to our podcast.
We're okay, so we are like there's a bit of
a frenetic, exciting energy to the episode today be us
and we'll let you in on the biggest secret that

(01:05):
is allowed is we're recording together today, which it were
physically together with our guest. This has not happened in
almost two years, and I'm truly like, I'm excited, and
I also like it's like weird and different, I know,
and we have such and we have such an like
there's so much to talk about today too. On top,

(01:28):
and we watched the movie together and our guests made
was incredible dinner. Twice Caitlin got ice, scream, I got wine.
That's just okay, And and we're here, we're together. I
don't know, it's all very excited, truly. So what is
the podcast about. It is our podcast in which we
examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, we use

(01:51):
the Bechtel test as a inspiration, a jumping off point
to initiate a larger discussion. And the Bechtel Test of
worse is a media metric created by a queer cartoonist,
Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Beckdel Wallace test. It requires
the version that we use that two characters of a
marginalized gender have names, they speak to each other, and

(02:14):
that conversation is about something other than a man, and
ideally it is a meaningful, narratively relevant conversation. Right, um,
And today, I mean I think we we uh, we
have a movie that's been requested for many years. We're
very excited to be covering it, and even more so

(02:34):
than the movie. We have a guest who is I mean,
so amazing. But even as it pretends to this show
record breaking guests shattering through through things, we didn't realize
we're possible, I know. And we should be presenting her
with a jacket that we promised a year ago. We

(02:55):
had plenty of time to get this jacket, but we
sucked up. It's because we actually contracted some moths to
make some silk for the jacket. And it's a supply
chain issue and the moths are on strike and that's
this whole thing, and we want to reach in equitable
contract with them. Yeah, so it's all good. Jack us

(03:17):
on the way, Like, where is this going? As soon
as you said moths, moths make silk? Do they? Yeah,
that's a spider thing. Oh my god. Wait I just
started to be like, am I oh no worms silk world?
No moths do they? They they'll just tear it up

(03:38):
cheap wine. And now I think that moths make silk.
That's okay, Well, Kenneth, that's why we don't have a jacket,
because I hired moth Yeah, Thatstmas and they're on strike. Yeah,
because they're like, why are you asking us to do
I can't And they're like, you need to be paying
us more because we cannot physically do what you're asking. Wow,

(03:58):
they've got a subcontract with the worms and that costs money.
I'm gott in the middle of God and this is
the life of a she e o and it's turns
out moths don't make silk um well. Recovering, recovering, She's
gotta have it today six film Vice Spike Lee and

(04:23):
we're bringing back the whole time. I really fumbled your intro,
but Kaitlin, you have the correct I've god, yes, I've
got all the details. She is a Vulture comic. You
should know she's got some headlining shows coming up in
February on the East Coast. You know her from our
episodes on How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Casino Royale,

(04:45):
among others. It's Kenny smoably five timer, five time. I'm
so excited you're back. Welcome to l A. By the way,
do you I told you guys it was because sketches
was rescheduled, but really it was because of this here
to do this I love this pot, let's do it.

(05:06):
We've really reached s to your podcast where we fly
our guests out. We flying guests out and don't say that.
People will request to be um excuse trip, Like, oh
well no, but but we were so stoked they are here.
It's still I'm still like acclimating to be in the
same room with other you know, it's like I have

(05:27):
to look over here, and then I have to look
over here. We were doing this for years, I know,
and it and I've lost the skills, but we are covering.
She's got to have it. We just watched it together
two times in a row. We had a two course meal. Um,
and here we are and we're doing great. All right, Denise,

(05:49):
what is your history? I was like, how does this
show here? But I'm too excited. I was like, wow,
I wonder what's going to happen. I shouldn't get us
your your history, your relationship with this movie. So I
saw this movie for the first time in college. I

(06:09):
think I took my first film course junior year and
we watched this And I'm beginning to think that the
guy just had us watch movies that he liked. Because
we watched this movie in the two thousand and five
Pride and Prejudice and maybe like two other movies, and
I'm like, I don't understand what this class was. But
we watched that movie and we talked about it and

(06:31):
like in the history of like black and white New
York movies, where we talked a little bit about what
the Allen as well, and I was like, oh, wow, okay,
well I like this more than that. Yeah, so yeah, yeah,
nice Jamie. What about you? What's your relationship? I had
ever seen this movie. Um, I I knew it was

(06:51):
like it was one of those I don't know, I
have a very poor track record with watching oh toour movies.
I get overwhelmed, and I feel like will bring so
much to tours that they love that I I'm like,
you're probably right. And then I never watched the movie. Um,
which is why, like I never watched a Wes Anderson
movie before this show, Like I've seen very little, like

(07:14):
all of the tours of this era, I hadn't seen
and um, I've seen a number of Spike Lean movies now,
but I hadn't seen this one. And so I saw
it for the first time with you both, and I
was really on board with it for a for a
chunk and then and then and then it was like,
oh my god. Um, But there's I mean, I'm I

(07:36):
generally like really enjoyed it, and I think it's like
I mean, especially for like the way it was made too,
It's just like kind of an unbelievable accomplishment. I'm excited
to talk about it. Long story short, I hadn't seen it.
Caitlin same, I've never seen this. Yeah, I had seen
other Spike Lean movies, but this one, I don't know.
It just never came across my desk. Your dask there, Yeah,

(07:58):
Caitlin's desk. It's just full right now. Accurate. Yeah, thanks,
there's um. But yeah, I watched it for the first
time a few days ago, doing knowing that we would
watch this, and I just had to be extra prepared.
But and then I started watching the series as well

(08:19):
because this correct and I got like four episodes into that,
and I have a little bit of like stuff to
mention about the series at some point. But yeah, generally
I enjoy this intellectual property, be it the movie or
the TV series. But yeah, I'm also excited to talk

(08:41):
about it. I'm very Yeah, there's so much, especially I
don't know, like Speke Lee is such a fascinating figure two,
and it's like he's one of the few oh Tours
that I feel like is very willing to interact with
conversations about his past work in a way that most
men are. Like, No, I was right, which I mean,

(09:02):
we were just talking about one of them. What Allen
is an excellent example of someone who has made a
movie in this aesthetic style and refuses to acknowledge any
of the problems with this passwork. And that's the most
problematic thing about him. Um. But in any case, I'm
very excited to talk about this movie and and the history.
Should I just dive into the recap and we'll go

(09:24):
from there. Yeah, let's do it. All I still can't
get over this. I know so wild. I have to
make sure here it's that's so nice. Okay. So we
open on some still images of Brooklyn taken by Spike
Lee's brother. Spike Lee's family is very present in this
movie movie. Then we cut to Nola Darling played by

(09:49):
Tracy Camilla John's. She's waking up in bed and then
begins to directly address the camera, saying that she wants
to clear her name. She considers her self normal even
though other people have called her a freak. And then
she's like, but here's the deal. Then we cut to
a man named Jamie over Street and the Jamie representation

(10:13):
with this character Jamie. I think very poor Jamie representation
in this movie. You bring in a Jamie character automatically,
I'm rooting for them, and things really take a turn certainly.
He's played by Tommy Redmond Hicks. He's also addressing the
camera saying that he believes each person has only one

(10:34):
soul mate, and for him, Nola was that person. We
see a very sensual sex scene between Nola and Jamie.
Then we cut to Nola's ex roommate, Clorinda Bradford played
by his sister. Yes, how is her name? I thought
it was Joy, but then it's Jually she's telling us

(10:57):
that when she lived with Nola, there'd be all these
strange men in their apartment that Nola was having sex with,
and it caused day falling out between Nola and Clorinda,
and then put a pin in that character because she's
not gonna be back for so long. One of the
problems with this movie, it's like, let's introduce a woman
and then disappear her. Can I don't want to interrupt

(11:18):
the we can, but the first scene, the first sex scene,
Jamie is so sweaty, and to pick that up in
low light, in black and white, that he's truly dripping
sweat on this poor woman. You're right, that is can

(11:39):
You pointed out all these incredibly insightful things about shooting
on film as we were watching this, I was like, oh, yeah,
it would be really hard to like, you have to
be sweating a lot for it to pick up through
so many yes things. I was just like, oh, no,
poor her, because she didn't look that sweaty. Like she
touches his back and you can see like droplets move,

(12:00):
moving and being spread out over skin. And I was like, look,
not all Jamie's have sex like that. Some Jamie's are
very dry. It's also weird because they almost not everywhere,
not where it counts, but in other areas. You know,
it's fine, but they would have only been simulating six
So like, why is he so sweaty? Was there some

(12:22):
was there someone like with a spray bottle? Like maybe
we need to make this realistic. Maybe that yeah, I
don't know. I mean not to shame sex sweaters. Your
body is your body, but it was a lot of
sweats of sweat. There humans, human bodies, you know. Yeah,
there's a lot of naked ones in this movie. Um, okay,

(12:45):
So Nola tells us about how men come up with
some really off putting pickup lines. But Jamie was different.
And then we see the scene where they first he
had that. He was absolutely not different and in fact,
was maybe even weirder than you see. This really funny, um,
this really funny montage. Oh my god, I can't remember

(13:06):
any words today. For the listeners. I was starting to
ken he said the word alter and I was in
my notes four different times. It says Nola's meaningful shelf
and I'm just suffering. Um. But yeah, that the montage
of like shitty pickup lines, but with the guys who

(13:26):
were like locking eyes with the camera and trying to
like fuck you through this. It's just so funny. It's
really good. Some of those lines have not changed. I
live in Brooklyn now, and I'm like, yep, he still
lives there. He still lives here. This guy definitely still here.
What's up. He's just fifty five now, he's hanging out
at the same bars. Yeah, this movie is thirty five
years old. Came out in eighties six, which is also

(13:48):
the year I came out. Wow, nasty way to put that.
I came out of my mom's I was like, okay,
you could specify what kind of coming up, but Laurie,
you know you're listening anyway. Okay, So right, Jamie meets

(14:08):
her by spotting her while he's waiting for the bus
and then following her to a to a fun jazz
soundtrack by Spike Lee's dad. He goes from what I
presume to be j Street Metro Tech down Fulton Mall.
These are all New York places, but you can still
go shopping there if you want to, and that it's
like they're not like right beside each other. Just to

(14:29):
be clear, they're like So he's following her for a while.
He goes from the f entrance and he walks down
this Fulton Mall road to an entrance of the two three. Okay,
so that's totally different train lines to get Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I can relate, and I understand same you. And then yeah,

(14:55):
but did you live in Manhattan? I did. I lived
in East Harlem. Then I take back the that's normal, Okay.
So then we meet Mars Blackman played by Spike Lee himself.
He talks about how Nola was a freaking the sheets
quote unquote, and he's like, well that's something that men want, yeah,

(15:16):
but not for our wife. You can say the most
vile things in character, and he's so lovable, like just
you're just like I can fix him. Yeah. He's also
I put this in my notes, he's more attractive than
the other guys, like more than Jamie, more than everyone
in that weird montage. And it was just kind of

(15:37):
like what a self centered thing to do as the director,
to be like, is he hotter than me? Well he's not.
In the picture of it, No way would happen'd stand
next today? I thought that that was no. I mean,
I feel like that's a good use of power. I
would be like, no one hotter than me in the movie,
I'm gonna look amazing. Well he got over that because

(15:57):
in the show everyone is the most beautiful person you've
ever seen, but he's not it, and he stopped being
people kept getting hotter and hotter, and he's like, I'm
just gonna stay back here, I feel But Spike's hot.
It's like to this day, he's hot. He looks the
way he did in this movie. So then we cut
back to Jamie over Street, who mentions a woman who

(16:20):
seems to be interested in Nola, though Nola denies that
anything that's going on between them. Then we meet this
woman Opal gil Strap. Everyone you said this while we
were watching. Every character in this movie has such a
good movie name, Like it's so movie it's great. Nola
asks her what it's like to have sex with a woman,

(16:42):
and Opel is like, well, you should just try it
parentheses with me, which Nola does not do. Then we
meet Greer child's played by John or Canada Terrell, which
is an even faker name somehow. Oh my god, I
need to like put a pin in that and be like,
just name you give your kid the middle name Canada,

(17:03):
and just see what happens. What happens, like, see how
they turn out. You know, that's fun, probably gonna be cool,
you know, like I feel like it will elevate someone,
not a middle not a middle girl, Nada. He talks
about how he molded Nola into a refined young woman.
He's very judgy and elitist. He has a perm he does,

(17:27):
and a series of suits that he wears. I think
each and every time in a situation that that does
not call for it. Yeah, not at all. Every Mars
is wearing a jersey of some kind. Yeah. I was like,
I'm sorry, but Thanksgiving at a studio apartment, you don't
need to don't wear a suit. He don't. And just
for the listeners, A PERM in the way that black

(17:47):
people use it, not in the way that white people
use it, which makes hair curlier. A PERM in the
way that it relaxes the hair, a relaxer or a texturizer. Okay,
now you guys got someone else would be like, I
don't notice, like Sigourney Weaver used to do. Honestly, it
kind of meets in the middle there because his hair
has a little bit of wave to it that some coirrels.

(18:10):
There are some Sigourney roles. Yeah. Then we see a
sex scene between Greer and Nola, which is mostly him
taking his clothes off very slowly and folded. That was
I like. When I got there watching that scene, I'm like,
not enough sex scenes are funny. I agree. Yeah. So
then Jamie gives Nola a birthday gift he had hired

(18:35):
some dancers to do a dance scene. That is the
only scene in the movie that's in color, because the
rest of the movie is in black and white, which
I guess was I read a little more about it,
and I guess that Spike Ley was really into MGM
musicals when he grew up, and so that was like
his MGM musical moment. He wanted to have like a
musical dance scene because that was like what he liked
growing up. But I thought that was really cool. Nice. Also,

(18:56):
the song that the dancers are dancing too is about
howla Fox a bunch of dudes. Unfortunately, the song absolutely
sucks ship. It's not that sorry Mr Lee, Mrs Dad,
but I don't like it. He's listening. His name was
Bill Bills Alive. He's ninety three years old and kicking.

(19:18):
When I get back to Brooklyn, I'll reach out and
I'll say, but it's also just wild. That's the song
that they're dancing to. That like about something that Jamie
is very threatened by. He's like, yeah, my girlfriend is
sucking a bunch of other dudes, And I constantly bring
up how I hate that, but I wrote a song
about it. I do think that like ties into I mean,

(19:42):
especially because we watched it back twice, and watching that
scene back the second time knowing where Jamie's storyline goes,
is like, this is a very fucked up way to behave.
But even so, it's like so much of this movie
is like knowingly so this isn't even a criticism of
Just like different men with different backgrounds and different personalities
lash hang out at the same woman for not giving

(20:02):
them what she wants, even though she repeatedly tells them
that's not what she's going to do. And it's just
like they become more and more conniving and like strategic
and expensive like what he composed and like rented out
space and hired dancers. They had to rehearse, probably to
criticize her at her like that was her birthday President,

(20:24):
but hey, you funk a lot and I don't like it.
Happy birthday, and you're just like this is so much
work anyways. Meanwhile, Greer is recommending that Nola see a
sex therapist because he thinks that she has a sex
addiction because but and she thinks that because she's not

(20:47):
giving him what he wants. Yes, then Nola invites her
three boyfriends over for Thanksgiving dinner so that they can
all meet each other, and again they're all quite reatened
to buy each other. Can we discuss how this seems
like a nice thing to you and a truly terrible
thing to wee. I was like I would do that.

(21:14):
Oh my god. I think we really learned about each
I truly, like in a good friendship way where Kenneth
and I were like, oh wow, this is the stuff
of nightmares. It's like, this is kind of a sexual fantasy.
It's true, but you know, it's good to know now
we know each other and now so facilitate that. You know,
I will if one of your ex is or currents

(21:37):
is like, hey, we'll do that for your birthday. Yeah,
thank Yeah, We'll get all your ex is in the
room and then be like we're going to see ourselves exes.
You have to have partners to have an ex Okay,
now it's getting personal. I'm gonna no anyway. So they
have Thanksgiving dinner together and then they all play Scrabbled together.

(21:58):
That's my favorite part list. Okay, So then Nola has
a dream that Jamie's greers and Mars's girlfriends all come over.
Accused Nola of stealing their men and then set Nola
on fire, but it's just a nightmare. Then Jamie confides
that he started to see another woman and that he's

(22:19):
not like Nola and he can't see multiple people at once,
so she has to make a choice. So she's still
kind of like, as far as he sees it, she
is stringing him along, so he leaves her. Then Opal
tries to make a move on Nola while she's like, hey,
I'm having a tough time. I know I'm not working
out with the guys. This is the moment, yeah yeah,

(22:44):
and like does fully surprise kiss Nolah, who is not
responsive to the kiss at all, and then it's like, hey,
you should go uh. Then Nola calls Jamie and tells
him to come over, she really needs him. Then he
does him over and trigger warning, he rapes her. Unclear

(23:05):
if the movie really understands what's happening or not, which
is like the whole discussion will have yes. Then Nola
reconnects with her former roommate Clarinda, she breaks up with
Greer and Mars. She goes back to Jamie and asks
him to take her back, which he presumably does, but
the next and final scene of the movie is her

(23:27):
addressing the camera one last time, saying that it didn't
work out with Jamie. She's not a one man woman,
and she's like, you know, this is my mind, this
is my body. We can kind of unpack the whole
monologue later, but she gives this like powerful monologue and
then she gets into bed by herself, and that is
the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break

(23:49):
and then we will come back to discuss, and we're
bad back in the same room. While we're still all
here together. Wow, we didn't leave. Where shall we start?
Is anything jumping out? There's so much to talk about,

(24:12):
I know, I guess just to kind of generally speaking,
I appreciate that it is a movie about a woman
who likes to have sex. She wants a number of
different partners, something that like most people judge her for.
But as she's constantly staying in the movie like this
is my life, my body, my choice, and ultimately like

(24:37):
the movie allows her to do whatever she wants. She's
not judged by the movie. She's judged by the other characters.
You know. It's just like it's her setting the record
straight and showing people that she's not some like quote
deviant or like quote freak, and that that's a perfectly
fine thing for a woman to have a large sexual appetite.
I have a weird question who is Like I know

(25:01):
Spike Lee is the maker of this movie, but the
person behind the camera has like even an interaction with
Spike Lee where he's like bone in, oh, you know,
like this, so it indicates that there is someone there,
And I I was just like, what is this? That's
a really good question. I don't really know the answer,
like who was who was supposed to be making this?
And is it because this is such a strange thing

(25:21):
that this woman has sex or like yeah, I don't
I didn't totally get that. I didn't even I think that.
I think I that didn't even register for me because
it's so normal for someone to talk to like talking
head and avoid now where it's like what was the
office being filmed for? Um, I don't know. I didn't
even think about that, and like a woman whose sexual

(25:42):
habits are so abnormal for that we're making a documentary
like I WHOA, I don't know. And then because I
asked that partially because at first I was a little
bit confused about the chronology because everyone's scenes where they
are looking directly to Cameron talking seemed to be happening
after the events of the film, right they're telling the story. Yeah,

(26:05):
so then they jump back and I'd be like, wait
where part of me was like maybe I'm just like
not smart enough, but like I was like a little
bit thrown in some scenes like when is this is
this when we see her sleeping with these different people?
Is this before the other thing? Oh, this is all
happening simultaneously. Okay, No, I think you're too smart because
I didn't even then, didn't even occur to me. I

(26:26):
was just like boeing, Yeah, the way that like a
reality show will have, like the talking head interviews where
they're talking about something that clearly happened in the past,
but they're talking about it like it's currently happening, where
it's like Kim is like Chloe obviously has an issue
with shirt and like which could be a person or

(26:46):
a shirt, and then and it's like making it seem
like this just happened or like they're just talking but
it's like clearly it's weeks later, but the tense of
it talks about like I don't know. Yeah, but now
that con that's a great question as far as like
who is like the characters who are directly addressing someone
who is presumably asking questions, who is that person? Who?

(27:09):
What is that entity? We don't have to answer, but
that is a really good question. I feel good about myself.
But yeah, I mean I think especially like having to
like repeatedly put myself in the mindset of this movie
and these themes coming out in six it's like that
is a pretty huge thing to have happened and to

(27:31):
have been extremely successful. And we'll talk about the production
of this movie. Basically this movie was made for like
very very very little money and then ended up making
seven million dollars in nineteen eighties money and like became
this huge thing and like launched Spike Lee's career and
the fact that his first movie was about the sex
life of black woman who was very empowered and like

(27:55):
was I don't know, Like it's like this just didn't happen.
Like it's really cool. And I think, like from like
a male otour, I've we got to think of a
better way to say that, because it feels bad coming
out of my mouth, but like from from an otur
who's a guy, you know, A first movie where it's
like Spike Lee puts a lot of his own himself

(28:16):
in his main character, who is a woman, and like
gives her the agency he would give himself in that
like where it's like there's just like details of Spike
Lee's young life that are in Nolah's where it's like
he's raised by artists and like I was raised with
this very strong sense of artistic integrity and like was

(28:36):
you know and what you can tell because his family
is literally in the movie supporting his art and contributing
their own art into it, and it's like those are
all qualities that he gives to Nola And I feel
like that's like I don't want to like over credit.
But also it's like you just don't see it a
lot of like a male or turn not one to

(28:57):
one ing themselves into a movie, which as I feel like,
I mean, oh, tours in general are kind of just like,
well here I am, this is me pretty interesting, right,
And it's like he's like, you know, thinking, I don't know, yeah, imagine.
I totally agree. Although that said, would I like to
see a movie about a like very sexually free and

(29:18):
empowered woman having been written and directed by a woman. Yes, yes,
I would like um because they're like, there are specific
things about this movie that like aren't great, they're very
of the time, but the general promise I can still
get behind, like a dude like come in Spike Lee
for you know, like not having such an enormous ego

(29:39):
that he ye what it is, because it's like, I
mean the scenes that are between women in this movie,
of which there are not many. I you know, even
if I didn't know this is a Spike Lee movie,
I'd be like, I don't think this was written by
a woman? Does I'm not feeling that I don't know.
I do want to say before we moved past it
that a apartment has twenty foot ceilings at least full windows,

(30:06):
multiple windows. I looked for an apartment in Brooklyn at
the beginning of last year, and they would be like,
you have one window. Okay, it's the living room window.
And we actually built a wall halfway through the window
so that technically the bedroom also has a window, which
is required by law. Okay, So the idea that this
woman has, like I wasn't counting, but I did. I

(30:26):
think I clocked at least like six windows, twenty ceilings,
enough space for a queen size bed to have a
whole altar built around it. And that's not well phantom
of the opera style, like burning candles. It's a it's
a big old metaphor, but it's dangerous. It's dangerous. I
believe the word is meaningful shells and it's overlooking the

(30:51):
Brooklyn Bridge. Today. Today they would have that would be
that would have been divided into like four one bedroom
apart because they would have built up the floor like
millions of dollars now and she lives there by herself.
As someone who does layouts in magazines, I wished her

(31:12):
I think, so, yeah, she's a graphic designer and it's
like I do. I'm like, I wonder it sounds like
based on your description that it was also unrealistic when
it came out. But I wonder how unrealistic, because I
think it's hard. How do I put this? Now? White
people live in Brooklyn, and I guess in the fifties,

(31:32):
based on the movie with Churcheronan they did too, but
like for a while, right for a while, they did
it heavily, heavily gentrified. Yeah, yeah, so I was like,
maybe maybe this is sucked up, but we're like white
people so afraid of black people that they were like, no,
not even with good real estate. No, I wouldn't do it. Sorry, Nope,
not gonna do it. Just there is some commentary in

(31:56):
the show in the in the series that got adapted
from this movie about like because it takes place in
the same neighborhood. But there's a lot of commentary online gentrification,
and there's a lot more like class commentary and stuff
like that. So a lot of the things that I
don't care for about the movie get course corrected in
the show. Although the show is not perfect, and I've
read some criticism about that that I was like, oh, yes,

(32:18):
good point, but does it have the language of like polyamory, ethical, nonmonogamy,
all that stuff. Yes, So in the show, Nola Darling
identifies as a sex positive, polyamorous pan sexual okay, got it, okay,
which does not happen in the movie. And I and
I don't even like personally fault Spike Lee for that.

(32:40):
That just wasn't popular. Lee understood language and not that
it wasn't being discussed, but it wasn't being discussed in
popular movies. Yeah, I mean should we should we talk
about that element of the movie. Yeah. Again, Like, this
is a story about a woman who like embraces her
large sexual appetite. It's not like demonizing a sexually liberated

(33:04):
woman the way that like whole genres of movies do,
Like we talked about like film noir, this happens in
a lot of like horror slasher movies. But this is
just like a character study about a woman who likes
to have sex. She's extremely open not only about her sexuality,
but like with her partners, about the other partners. She

(33:25):
has the names giving together like I yeah, and again
it's like I'll qualify this by saying I'm not polyamorous,
and I might not get things right, and I apologize
if so. I want to understand more. But it's it's
interesting to see a character who, like Nola is so

(33:48):
it's it's part of what makes the three men so
frustrating is Noah is extremely straightforward. She's very honest, Like
even in moments where in my head, just with movie brain,
I think she's going to lie she doesn't like and
there there's a there's a moment where she's in bed
with Jamie and Mars calls her and they have a

(34:10):
quick talk. She hangs up. Jamie says, who was that?
And in my movie brand I'm like, she's gonna lie,
but she says it was Mars. I was like, she's
giving you all the information. She tells Mars, Mr. Police,
I gave you all the clues. She's literally writing a
snowman note every morning, noon, and night, multiple people so much.
Sometimes she's reveling in it, just being like when he's like,

(34:31):
do you want to go to the Caribbean with me?
And she's like, I don't think I could stand being
alone with you for more than for two weeks and
a time, and she's like smiles and she said it
like you're the worst. I was like, damn. But she
like she's very honest and upfront with all of her partners,
and so the fact that they are like in that

(34:52):
whatever like mental loop of like let me try the
same thing over and over even though I have all
the information I need and I'm expect a different result.
It's like until they become angry at her for something,
listen like they weren't listening, and they trust that they
know her better than she knows her, and it's this
thing that's like the underlying assumption is like you're saying that,

(35:14):
but you don't really mean it. And I'm going to
go based on because I know you so well, I'm
gonna assume what your actual intentions are. I'm going to
assume what you actually mean, and I'll go based on
my assumption. And when you don't do the things that
I assumed, I will accuse you of being sick. Like
in the case of Greer, I mean, that's like something
that really I mean it is. It's I don't think

(35:37):
it's like callously played for laughs. I think it works
in the way it's presented. But it's very clear because
the three men in this movie are just like in
different ways, also embarrassing and like hard to watch. Um.
But Greer, I mean his I mean, he has he
has a lot of stuff going on, but like he's
very very classist. He is insulted that um, that Nola

(36:01):
would have sex with someone of a lower class than
he does. It clearly really really bothers him. So it's
like you just watched all these different characters find ways
to attack each other and the woman that they are
saying that they're in love with and to shame her
into being with them exclusively. And there's a scene where
Greer's new approach is that he's going to say that

(36:23):
she's addicted to sex and that something is wrong with her.
And that's something that comes up again again with Nola.
That the movie for the most part, and but like
the most part, seems aware that it's like the people
accusing Nolah of deviants are projecting their own insecurities on
to her. She's not deviant. She is a horny person
who is being very honest, like, so what do you

(36:46):
want from her? She's giving She's giving you all the clues,
Mr policemen Um. But in that scene, like Greer says, like,
I think you need to see a doctor, Like cut
to Nola, I'm like, why did Nolah agree to go
see the doctor? That was a rushion I had of
Like she clearly knows, but she like whatever, if she's
appeasing him, whatever it is. She goes to the sex therapist,

(37:07):
who's also this very like comedy character and very like
I feel like in the way that a lot of
eighties and nineties and even like two thousand's and sometimes
two thousands tens therapists are like stylized of like they're
very arrogant and they're talking down to you and they
think they know it's best for you. But even so,

(37:28):
even though it's like you have this like therapist who's
like n y U accreditation is very prominently displayed on
the wall, and it's like when I Spike Lee went
to n I, I'm sure that's a loaded thing to
do whatever, But even so, the arrogant therapist is like,
there's nothing wrong with her. She's a perfectly healthy person.
Cut to Greer being like women doctors right, like so

(37:52):
just like these men could not have more information, and
Nolan is being I think like in some cases over
really generous with her energy to like put their minds
at ease and to accommodating. She's I'm just like who accommodating? Yeah,
Because they're either like accusing her of saying she's sick,

(38:13):
she's a freak, she's a sex addict, saying things like
she's not capable of loyalty or devotion or commitment or love.
Even they're all threatened by each other, and just like
they're constantly attacking her for things that again, she's always
been extremely upfront about and that they just refused to
understand because, like he said, cans, they are making assumptions

(38:36):
about her and they think that they know her better
than she knows herself. But I also think that they're
probably they're just like pulling from stereotypes about women in
general police because that's not allowed anymore. They're like, we
didn't have all the clues where they're like, you know,
just like the idea that like women want marriage and

(38:57):
babies and to have a very domestic life and to
want it. So from the moment you see Jamie, you're like,
this guy wants to be a wife, guy so fucking hard,
which is just like and there's nothing wrong with that,
but the fact that he's like weaponizing that and projecting
that onto a person who keeps telling him that's not
what she wants, at least at this phase in her life.

(39:19):
Because I do like how the script gives us like
little insights into into Nolah's life, where like she hints
it like I want a family someday, but I just
that's not where I'm at right now. That's not how
I want to live right now, and so have five
kids right which I'm like, well, run that back and
see how you feel in a couple of years. She's

(39:40):
in her like mid twenties. You know that'll scale down
over time. But even so, it's like she repeatedly was like,
that's not where I'm at right now, Like I don't
I want to it's so frustrating. I want to unpack
her like closing monologue. Sure, so she starts by explaining

(40:02):
that the celibacy thing didn't work out because she had
told Jamie that she was gonna be celibate for a while.
And then she says that she shouldn't have gone back
to Jamie in the first place, implying that things didn't
work out with him, and she's absolutely correct that she
shouldn't have gone back again. And then she says about Jamie,
he wanted a wife, a mythic, old fashioned girl next door.

(40:25):
But it's more than that. It's about control my body,
my mind. Who is going to own it them or me?
I am not a one man woman. And then she
goes on to say, you know, so there you have
it from a number of people who all claim to
know what makes Nola Darling tick. And then she says,
I think they might know parts of me dot dot
dot and then she gets into bed and the great

(40:47):
I really love the ending, and it comes after such
a tumultuously frustrating ten to fifteen minutes before that. It
is shocking to me that he sticks the landing at
the end of something that Okay, so should we do?
Do you have more to unpack on that just to
say that, like, I'm pleased that that is like the
final note of the movie, that that's like the button

(41:10):
we end on, because again, like the movie had been
building up that we're seeing her, like we see the
men that she's with getting worse and worse as the
movie goes on. She's getting more and more frustrated with them.
She breaks up with all of them at one point,
but then gets back together with Jamie in a decision

(41:31):
that we all find baffling. But then for the final
moment to be like, Yep, that was a mistake. I
shouldn't have gone back to him, Um, setting the record straight.
This is who I am. It's about me, my body,
my mind, my choices. I own all of this. So
I was very pleased that that's like Kenny's I mean,

(41:51):
the more that he's like, I'm just going back to
what are they filming her for? Because that brings me
back to I was just looking at I had some
of the opening monologue in my notes, and she starts
by saying, I want you to know the only reason
I'm consenting to this is because I wish to clear
my name. I'm like, so whoever has a vested interest
in her having more than one boyfriend? Like it's so confusing,

(42:15):
But I do think like those whatever that the movie
very intentionally begins and ends in the same place, and
I like, there's now I find the beginning of that
monologue at the start of the movie to be I
have questions, but she ends it on like some people
call me a freak. I hate that word. I don't
believe in it. Better yet, I don't believe in labels,

(42:36):
which is like another great thesis statement for her character.
And then also when any other time you cut to her,
like talking head in her bed, she's really like reading
these men very very clearly, where she's just like, you know,
I found two types of men, the decent ones and
the dogs. She calls them weak, she calls them all
these like and I feel like it's implied in that

(42:58):
montage that she's so aware that all of these men
are shitty that she's just like, yeah, I'm I'm not
in no rush to settle down with any of these guys.
Like yeah, Like, I I like how she is. She
has like those moments, and I wish that she got
I mean, she does get a lot of opportunities to

(43:19):
stand up for herself to these men, but they just
stick around. And it's like to the point where I'm like,
I don't know why she keeps talking to them. I
don't know why they're still hanging around. We gotta break
up this group. It's not working because there are moments
where it's like when Greer is aggressively like you are
sick for having sex with people who aren't me, and

(43:39):
she she like fires right back, and it's like, well
fuck you, I'll never see you again basically, But then
she goes to the doctor anyways, and I'm just like,
this is a little confusing. I love the scene when
she does finally break up with Green at the end
and he's like, I'm so, He's like, you don't mean
any but you're the worst. You don't know anything. They
don't like woman. It was like, Wow, he's a terrible person,

(44:06):
but he was I think maybe one of my favorite
characters in this but yeah, because like they're on the
roof and he's like, come to the Caribbean with me
and she's like no. He's like whatever, you it's right now.
You gotta tell me yes or now. And she's like no,
and he's like, okay, you don't have to rush, like
you let me know. By the way, took some time
think about in the same way where it's like in

(44:27):
that scene where she's like, okay, I'm having sex with
too many people. I'll start by not having sex with you.
He's like, well that's not rush. I don't know. Maybe
maybe I only have sex with me. I don't know,
Like it's yeah, there. The writing of the movie is
so fun and like we we kept talking, I mean
whatever Mars's character, how he can't not repeat back what

(44:47):
it's just been said to him or what also what
he just said. Um, it's so good, Like all the
characters are so distinct and it's so like again it's
like you don't want to like hand it to a
man for identifying male behavior too much, but it's like
it is so funny to me how and funny in
the bad way, But how like all three of these men,

(45:11):
they're so different, but they all have a different version
of the same problem, and the way that it manifests
is very different, which is just like what you're saying.
They think that they know what this woman wants better
than she does, which is of course not true, and
so it works out for none of them because why
would they? I just wish um before we move on

(45:32):
to like the heavy heavy discussion, I would like to ask,
did you guys feel like there were any scenes that
set up these relationships in a positive way? Like I
feel like all of them were set up in like
a here's clearly a failure, or like this is like
how it's incongruous, But like, was there a moment and
I think it's supposed to be after he stalks her

(45:52):
down the street and they have a conversation. Is that
the moment we're supposed to see them together and have
something positive that we then root for. That was one
of the moments in the movie where I didn't necessarily
feel like the movie knew that that was fucking mixtreme.
That movie doesn't understand that because there's like dodel do
do do do? And there the man actively stalking and

(46:14):
even the shots are kind of like leering and you're
seeing her from behind like it's true crime footage. And
then at the end, Nola's just like waiting for him
near a subway stop and she's like like TV, you
were following, you get here, and then he's like, I
gotta see you again. You're like, this is not this
is not good. So what happens here is that before

(46:36):
we know how they met, we see a scene with
them together. It's a very like sensual scene where they're
like making love. I'm so sorry I just said that
I'm a virgin again. We grew. I'm sorry. It's cos
a lie. I get that, but it's but and she

(46:56):
says something like, you know, most men don't know how
to like touch a woman, but like you're really good
at it. Whatever his massage, look, his hands are angles,
you can get the strength to get like that was awesome.
So I felt I thought as though that their relationship
was like from the first scene, I was like, oh,

(47:16):
this does seem like mutually respectful, and you know, it
seems sweet and nice. And then that's when Nola is
like she makes a comment like it seems that men
are taught not to be in touch with themselves and
their true feelings. I was like, cool, yes, generally very true.
Then she says, and then you should hear some of
the things that men say. And then that's when we

(47:38):
get that montage of a bunch of different men delivering
very corny pickup lines. There's a hot dog joke in there.
Us a certified tenage premium beef tubes steak steak. Oh,
I forgot the tubes stick. I don't want to think
tube when I think of a penis. I really don't.
I think about tubes steak a lot. But it's not sexual.

(48:02):
It's because that's my job. All this to say, Nola
is clearly not impressed with this tactic of picking up women.
And then she's like, but one guy was different, And
then we cut to a scene where Jamie stalks her,
and then you're like, this is the different guy. It
is different, but in a horrible way. But yeah, like

(48:25):
those guys were creepy. This guy is stalking you. It's
a different I was kind of I mean, and I
honestly thought we were being set up with something a
little bit different with Jamie that I mean, well, this
isn't a criticism of the movie. But I sort of
thought it was like the premise of the movie was
something that you wouldn't see in movies of the eighties,
of like a woman who is not interested in a

(48:47):
monogamous relationship and a man who very much is like
that's not something you get very often. And I was like, Oh,
we're being set up with these characters that you know
don't have the socially prescribed desires. But then Jamie just
turns out to be a rapist, and so I didn't
see that happening. But but I do think that that
is like I don't know, I mean, it's so complicated,

(49:11):
because I do think that in some ways, and I
wouldn't include the rape scene. I just I mean, I
feel at least better than Spike Lee regrets it because
I think it just like complicates so much in the
movie in a way that is not necessary and turned
my stomach and was triggering. So but um, but in

(49:32):
the way that like, Okay, I'm talking to this on
real time. But when you're presented with a character who's
like a man who wants an anogamous relationship, I feel
like they're almost presented to you like they're from then
on or above criticism because that's so unusual and like, oh,
a man who just wants to be with one person, well,
then I guess we love this guy. So the fact

(49:54):
that Jamie wants an anogymous relationship and turns out to
be a fucking despicable person like also not something that
you see in movies very often. However, I think that
he's still a despicable person even if you don't include
a rape scene of our protagonist. That is upsetting and
shouldn't be in the movie totally, because again, the whole

(50:16):
movie is him and the other two men constantly sucking,
sucking and being mean to her. It's like she sticks
around even though your meat, Like, come on, it's very
frustrating guys. But can we uh we got that discussion
out of the way. Yeah, I you know, trigger warning again,

(50:38):
because we do have to talk about the rape scene
in this movie that I just did not see coming
at all. There's been a lot written about this movie,
but like this scene in particular, because it is like shown,
I mean very clearly, it is a rape scene where
and it's a violent rape scene. And when you mate

(51:02):
or whatever, when when you see like that decision being made,
You're like, what is even more important is like what
happens in the scene after, And like, how is this
movie going to handle the Because if you're making that
creative choice, you better fucking know what is going to
happen after and you better deal with that hugely triggering
creative decision you just made. And this movie does not

(51:25):
do that. They make you know, they make you really
sit in this horrible moment for Nola and then the
next scene and this just felt like a knife twist
in a way that was so frustrating as a viewer.
Is the only scene you get with her and her
friend is her name and Clarinda who you've seen Clorinda

(51:46):
before because she's participating in this grad students documentary about
some lady he met um and we find out that,
you know, the Clorinda and no Lower roommates. They had
a falling out, and then it seems like Nola reaches
out to Clarinda in the fallout of this rape, and
I was like, Okay, maybe this is going to be

(52:07):
a scene where let's see what happens, you know, like
let's see how Nola brings it up. But she kind
of doesn't like what happens is very I don't know.
This was a scene to me that I was like,
this was written by a man who did not know
how to write this scene because Nolah is saying things

(52:27):
like I think I really fucked up this time, Jamie
really hates me, and Clarinda replies by saying, oh, I
don't even want to know what you did to make
him feel that way, and it's like they're kind of
like circling around. They don't even talk about what actually
happened really, and it's implied in the scene that Nola

(52:50):
feels like what happened to her was her fault, which
again is something that a lot of people who have
been assaulted like feel. But this movie is not in
sit in that conversation, and that's not what's happening in
this scene. It's I think one of the few and
like a really egregious moment of the movie being out
of its own depth, Like it's just not equipped to

(53:11):
handle this plot point and I don't understand why fucking
put it there, Like it's so yeah, It's what did
take me by surprise is that she then in the
scene after that, I think is talking to Jamie uh,
and she's saying, she's telling him that she wants to
be celibate for a while he's questioning why, like this

(53:35):
rape like prompts a change in her and like inspires monogamous,
Like that happening to her is what changes her mind
quote unquote between wanting to date multiple people into just
wanting to date Jamie. Like it's just such a it's
a dangerous creative choice to make to be like okay,

(53:55):
and then he, I mean, he rapes her, and then
all of a sudden she's like, you know what, I'm
dismantling my Phantom of the Opera bed. Like there's all
these symbolic things that happened to indicate that her getting
raped was actually a good thing, like the wake up,
She's the wake up or something like that. So you
guys both saw this movie more recently. I saw it

(54:16):
well before me too, and just how we discussed it
was fundamentally different, as though like this is this is
kind of like what you play with firing get burn.
It was just like very much so like the discussion was,
this is the wages of Hordom and if you whore around,
this is what's going to happen, and just I'm so
happy to rewatch it under like a not super Christian,

(54:40):
not super like southern, not all of these other lenses
that I was viewing it. So because yeah, that was
And like so when she meets up with Clarinda, Clarinda
is playing the upright based or the cello. It's gotta
be the upright base based on the thing ring. But
she's playing that song Nola, And so for it to
go right from like a violent rape scene to be like,
here's the theme of a movie, you know, just to

(55:02):
the natural course of progression and the song about how
she she focks around. Oh, Mike, I didn't even connect that.
God that is I would love to hear. I mean
the nature of the discussion you were having in school.
That's like, I feel like we've had stuff like that
pop up on the show quite a bit of Like
just the conversation that we had like ten years ago

(55:23):
was just so fucking wildly different. Um. I went to
UM and a lot of the like modern and most
of them were written when the Netflix series came out.
About how this plot point was originally reviewed when the
movie came out in six I think it's also very
telling about just where discourse was at at this time,

(55:48):
and and also keeping in mind that in six the
vast majority of movie critics were white guys. So this
was from the New York Times. In eight, he says,
Mr Hicks, the actor who plays Jamie. Mr Hicks gives
Jamie a depth and passion that escapes other men. It
is telling that when Jamie's patience gives out and he

(56:10):
turns rather shockingly brutal to Nola, his violence seems natural
and does not diminish interest in or sympathy with the character.
Uhlass review Uh, Mr Times, I don't know, but it was.
It was a white male film reviewer at the at

(56:30):
the New York Times at that time. Um. But even
the fact that it's like it was such a prevalent,
like it's exactly what you're describing, kinne of like, well,
she took things too far, and this is what happens
to women who take things too far, where it's like
they just, uh, you've lost your power, where here was
a way to get it back, like right, like and

(56:53):
just implying that like yeah, he implied, like, well, of
course that would happen when it's like there's not I
don't think a him of this movie where she's being
dishonest or not completely straightforward with him, and it is.
It's it's interesting because I think that there's moments in
the movie where it felt clear to me that the
movie was like he's getting in his own way, his

(57:13):
false expectations and his like ego and his masculinity is like,
what's preventing him from listening to her? But then but
then it takes this turn at the end and like
gives him the power back and then at the last
second gives it back to Nola. But it just doesn't
deal with what happened, and I just don't understand. Yeah,

(57:36):
should we tell? So? Spike Lee has been asked about
this in at least two interviews that I found. One
was from fourteen and then another was from m seventeen
when the show came out. He's he's basically it was
a question that he was asked about, like, do you
regret anything any to quote my favorite misspelled tattoo, any regrets? Um?

(58:00):
So he says, it's, you know what, my biggest regret
is the rape scene, and she's got to have it.
If I was able to have any doovers that would
be it. It was just totally stupid. I was immature.
It made light of rape, and that's the one thing
I would take back. I was immature, and I hate
that I did not view rape as the vile act
that it is. He qualifies in. There will be nothing

(58:24):
like that, and she's got to have at the TV show,
that's for sure, which it sounds like is very true, right.
I mean, I've only seen the first four episodes, but
I don't imagine. There is a scene in which Nola
gets street harassed and then assaulted, and then that's actually
what prompts her female friend to suggest that she starts

(58:44):
seeing a therapist, and that therapist character becomes someone that
Nola sees in multiple episodes. So that whole thing was
handled differently. Is it handled perfectly? I would say no,
but it is certainly handle handle better than it was
in the movie. The Sorry I cut you off earlier.

(59:04):
You were talking about what happens in the last scene together,
where I think, do we get to the point where
Nola does say to Jamie, like, so that's what took
me by surprise? Yes, where so she calls it a
near rape and she's saying that's why I'm going to
be celibate for a while, or that she says like,
that's you know, I'd rather not get into it. But

(59:25):
don't you think that your near rape of me is
a good enough reason. I was surprised that, yeah, it
even gets mentioned and identified, although near rape is not
how I would response by saying, I've never done something

(59:46):
like that in my life, which I think implies like,
well maybe if you hadn't like it just implies that
she her behavior forced him to do that to her. Yes, yes,
I agree, which so he's still acting like on that bench,
he is still acting very much so like the wrong party. Yeah, yeah,
like the blame is on you, Nola, and you've got

(01:00:08):
to convince me to let you back into my life.
And then that weird slow motion shot that isn't slowly
not it's not slow enough. It needed to be slower.
I think that they're just like um our editing budget
we ran out just walk real slow. But then Kenisi
pointed out there's a bird that flies past, and I

(01:00:32):
was like, I don't I don't like it. I was like,
I get the spirit of it as a budget movie,
but yeah, So in conclusion, the handling of the assault
in this movie was really wretched, and but at the
very least Spike Lee acknowledging that it was a mistake,

(01:00:53):
saying he regrets it didn't view it the way it
should be viewed. You know, It's more than you get
from most director you're back in their work. Like again,
it's like, I don't mean to over do it, but
I just like, no one is willing to have that discussion.
It's so frustrating, Yeah, exactly. And it's another like ego
thing where most you know, towards who are men, are

(01:01:16):
unwilling to acknowledge that anything they ever did was wrong
or a mistake or they're constantly defending their choices and
that is horrible, like to the detriment of their life.
Like it's just so um. Yeah, So I'm glad that
Spike Lee is willing to have the discussion and just

(01:01:39):
and also like apply it to the next version of
of the of the intellectual property almost. I know, I
was like, I don't want to say I p out loud.
That makes me feel ill. It's the world we're living in, baby,
I p universe. Baby. Let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. Okay,

(01:02:08):
let's banish Jamie from the should should we have? And
I think we've kind of covered me And I was like,
but I'm leaving. Let's Spanish Jamie. I'm Jamie. I'm I'm tired.
I'm going home. We've covered I. I think it. Does

(01:02:32):
anyone else have anything for the Jamie character. I'm gonna stay.
I'm glad you're saying thank you. I will now call
air quotes nice guys toxic nice guys, you know, I
will now call them Jamie over streets because that was
a wonderful example of exactly things. So like when she's
talking about like how lame other dudes are who asked

(01:02:54):
her out and how he was different, it is also
this psychotomy that she's talking about where like air quotes
nice guys, and because like the dogs are coming up
to her and like you want to touch my penis,
but the nice guy will literally stalk you, take everything
you do personally, and then like, yeah, that's that's a

(01:03:15):
nice guy. That's the sweet guy. I think it almost
like it. It almost feels like it ties to like
the nerd thing too, of like feeling like, oh, I'm
not the traditionally extremely egotistical masculine personality. Therefore, you should
be thrilled that I'm interested in you and in fact

(01:03:35):
you belong to me and like, and he gets so
I think that he like, yeah, like almost overestimates the
value of his performance of niceness. Nice guys always do that. Yeah, Like,
I'm not like those other guys. I'm a different kind
of unstable. And if you don't respond to me the
way that I want you to, I will lash out

(01:03:58):
in ways you couldn't imagine. Like it's just it's yeah,
it's not like a one to one there, but it
does feel like just in terms of a level of entitlement,
it feels kind of similar. And and then with Greer
you've got something totally different where he literally refers to
her as an object in his opening monologue, where he's like,
she was the clay, I was the sculptor. Like he's

(01:04:19):
literally like, women in ways are hunks of horny clay.
And you make him a statue, and sometimes they don't
want to be a statue. It's like it's weird, like
a statue. I put her on a pedestal. Um. But
we haven't talked very much about Mars, who is another

(01:04:42):
fun flavor of Mars black Man. That is his name.
I'm not just saying that is his name, It's true.
And he's like immature misogynist like that like asogynist. Yeah,
where he's like his his whole thing is like mean,
I think that he we're supposed to think, you know,

(01:05:03):
he's like the character that's closest an age. It is
more I think that it's implied that like Greer and
Jamie are like in their thirties and that like Mars
is a little bit younger, and like he's kind of
a mess. He doesn't have a job. He's like he
has more of a traditional ego where he's always like
over like clearly overstating his impact on the world and

(01:05:26):
like making ship up and like saying he knows famous people,
but like doesn't have a job or has nothing going on,
and so it's like, well, well that's not true, you know.
Like the movie also immediately undercuts because he's like women
who act like this is problems that they're dead, and
then they do this wonderful nice thing about her family
and how she was raised very well, and it was
very effective commentary. Right, there's like this he says something like,

(01:05:50):
I think one of the reasons Nola was having all
that sex is because doing all that boning. He says, right, yeah,
he's he's the baby, He's the baby. It's because her
doing that is because she has a bad relationship with
her father, um, which is obviously like a very common
attitude that like, you know, women have daddy issues, especially

(01:06:11):
the ones that are out there fucking um. And then
we cut to a scene where we meet Nola's dad,
who was played by Billy spike LEAs cut from son
to dad this is kind of fun um, and Nola's
dad is saying how much affection and love they gave
her when she was growing up. They paid for music

(01:06:32):
lessons and dance lessons and all this stuff. And then
right after that is a scene where Nola was like,
you know, reminiscing about her childhood and the love her
parents gave her and all that stuff, which is obviously
like dispelling the issue, right the Yeah, yeah, that like um,
mars is this belief that he has, you know, like

(01:06:57):
horny women seek the affection of men because they have
a daddy issues. Women are the devil. And I think
that like he takes that opportunity to kind of like
go a step further to in a way that isn't
totally necessary, but I kind of liked it. Um of,
like what Mars is implying is like she's not marriage material,

(01:07:18):
which he says in his opening monologue. He is like, oh,
you you know, you want to be around a freak,
but you don't want her to be your wife or
that's whatever. I think. That's like basically what he says.
And he's implying that, like, oh, this woman is not
family material. And then at the end, Nola is like,
and I want a family someday. I had a great
childhood and I love my parents and they love me,
and we see that that's true. And then she's like,

(01:07:39):
and I would like kids of my own someday. And
so it's like it's like, well, this guy is just
fucking wrong. What a goof Um he also uses the
very ablest our word word and seen he's in so
eighties word and then yeah, that was kind of all
I um Mars, Okay, yeah, that's all I had to

(01:08:04):
I mean I also think just like he in the
same way that the others guys do, just like can't
take the hint and keeps pushing back on stuff. Like
there's one scene where he I don't even really fault
him for this, but he's just like, I love you,
I think of falling in love with you, and she
sets the boundary again. She's like, well, that's not where
I'm at, Like we are like, yeah, yeah, that's how

(01:08:26):
you feel, like hit the bricks kind of and then
he said he accepts it in the moment, but then
in the next scene is still like, I hate these
other guys you're dating, like protecting on her again and
like it's just trying to find all these Like he
and Jamie have this bizarre rapport between the two of
them because Greer is like so classes towards Jamie and

(01:08:48):
uh and and Mars that that's a nonstarter. They're they're
never going to talk about. Jamie and Mars kind of
have this like weird anger based friendship misogyny being because
they meet up again. They talk about basketball, they talk
about Larry Bird is ugly, they have a whole I

(01:09:10):
thought it was a fun way for spect Lea to
get his basketball opinions into his first movie. Um I'm
doing that. I know He's like you might as well,
but you know, to the point where Mars is like, oh,
let's split her up by days of the week, and
you're just like, oh my god, you're so sick. And
so we did not involve her in this conversation. No,

(01:09:32):
of course not, because he's like, you get it for
four days, I get it for three. And it's like
that means that Nola has to see one of you
every day of the week, Like what about the alone
time she needs? And also, I mean and I think
that like his character is such a goof that it's
like he's half joking, but he's not totally, which doesn't okay,

(01:09:54):
he'd be like cool and just again I read I
get weekends. I told you that on a it's awesome. Wow.
Men are so funny, they're so cool, they have such
good ideas. And we talked about the other women in
the movie. With the other women in the movie, there's

(01:10:15):
not that much just say, it's like, let's just roll.
Let's we get Clarinda, who is the former roommate that
Nola had, and right away, yes, um, they've stayed friends,
but she's like I couldn't live with her anymore because
she was just always having different dudes over at the

(01:10:35):
apartment and then they, like you said, Jamie, they don't
even interact until the end of the movie. They looking
past the scene that had just happened right before it.
If you can kind of like just isolate that scene
between Nola and Clarinda, you know, it's fairly sweet. It's

(01:10:56):
you know, Clorinda seems like a supportive friend. Although and
I think that it's like and I don't wanna because
I don't necessarily think that the movie is like operating
on this level of like thinking of how women relate
to each other. But I was like, I could see
Clarenda's point of view from like an annoyed roommate stance
of like, if your roommate is having really loud sex

(01:11:18):
all the time to the point where it's interrupting with
your quality of life, that's a discussion. But it doesn't.
But it sounds like he wasn't maybe thinking about it
that hard. It made it sound like you're having too
much sex, and it bothers me as opposed to like
I'm you know, maybe and I'm not pulling from my
own experience here. Maybe you podcast for a living, and

(01:11:39):
so audio quality is actually kind of important here and
then someone's just fucking, fucking, fucking you know against and
you're just like, well, this is actually a problem, and
then it's a discussion and then you and then you move.
I will admit I would be pissed if I was like, Hey,
I truly don't feel safe because of the I don't
know any of these men. I know none of their tales,

(01:12:00):
and they're in my bathroom when I'm in a robe
and I'm coming in and given what I know that
you've told me, and for that roommate, you just be
like you're not down, You're not cool. I'm on the
lea's I would be kind of like, You're like, well,
can we have a discussion? And it also did I
mean again, I just I'm like, is it even worth
because I'm like, I just think that like maybe Spike

(01:12:22):
Lee is not thinking about it that hard and it's
like women don't like when other women have sex multiple
sexual partners. Like I think it's more like he is
assuming it's a monogamy brain thing and I could be
wrong there. That was my read of it. Well, we
would know maybe if we had just seen more scenes
between Nola and Clarinda, which which we don't get. I

(01:12:45):
will say this is another thing that the series improves on,
where we meet several of Nola's friends who are women.
Some of them even have like arcs throughout the show,
although I did read some criticism about that and other
aspects of the show. Again, so it's I don't want
to be like the show is a perfect and it
fixes all the problems of the movie. Um, but it

(01:13:06):
certainly does improve upon them. Um. But yeah, with Nola
and Clorinda, we like, well, yeah, it really almost nothing.
It's the thing. It's like to the point where I
guess we do have to like be grasping at straws
here to be like, what does she mean when she
said that? Because you just have no information of why
she said that. Um. The other women that we see

(01:13:27):
in the movie, we see the therapist for one scene, um,
which is kind of more of an extended joke about therapy.
I thought of like, it's not a completely negative interaction,
but it's like whatever, I just thought it was like
playing on a lot of like therapists be like this
and they're always like they think they're so much smarter

(01:13:49):
than you, and you don't want to go back, which
is I mean there's way more egregious versions of that commentary,
but it wasn't my favorite. And also it's like that
the character never comes back. Sure, um yeah. What struck
me about that is the therapist Dr Jamison says something like,
you know what we're Jamie energy on this. Yes, seriously,

(01:14:12):
she says, what we're all looking for is love and
if you if what you want is total female sexuality,
the beautiful sex organ is between your ears, not between
your legs, and it's like your head right, it's just
like again, as Nola clearly states she's not necessarily interested
in love. Again, she's like, I want a connection with someone, sure,

(01:14:36):
and I want to have sex with people. Yes, it
doesn't necessarily have to be love. So I was like, alright,
sex therapists seems like you don't really understand your drop
that well. But then I do believe that eighties sex
therapists we're saying. I was like, I don't think it
still existed in the eighties. Yeah, I think they're still
out there. All of them have gotten no additional training,

(01:14:56):
and I've talked to them as they're arapists. They don't
give you booster packs. I was told I had a
porn addiction because I watch porn when I masturbate. Oh
my god. Yeah. He was like, do you think you
I think we should start talking about addiction here, and
I was like, addiction addiction because I wanted Okay, I

(01:15:18):
there there's I do think that that's well. If we
have therapists who listened to the show, I would actually
be curious of like, are you encouraged to get booster
packs because and I know that that's not an act term.
And then I'm talking in pokemon terms because my i
Q is too, but um, but I have curious because
it's like my mom is a teacher, and teachers have

(01:15:40):
to get booster packs all the time to remain employed,
like that you have to be con like to the
point where it's like, you know, a burden to the teacher,
of like you have to be constantly taking new classes
and learned about new educational techniques, and like, if you're
the same teacher you are when you start and when
you end, you weren't doing your job correctly because you
should be getting booster packs all the time. Therapists should

(01:16:00):
be getting but are maybe some of them are, I
don't know. I'll look at the a p A guidelines
for certification please hit us up. And that's just for psychologists.
It's like different for psychiatrists and counselors. Right. I have
the same question for medical doctors. Are you getting updated
information because it seems like sometimes you really aren't. They're

(01:16:21):
getting boosters from the pharmaceutical companies. Okay, I'm not going
to go with a whole I guess what I'm saying
is teachers are godlike figures and they're paid significantly less
than therapists and doctors. Um, not that we don't love
therapists and doctors in in theory. Listen to the episode

(01:16:44):
that you were on on Sludge, a podcast that I
did retire from. I mean, and we say this, you know,
as God's True Soldiers podcast podcasters. So you have to
take what we're saying really seriously because we went to
school for twenty years. I have a master's degree in

(01:17:06):
screenwriting from Boston University and I have a master's degree
in film production from Boston University. We do hate to
bring it up. That was okay, I feel like ship
and I think that I went to the university that
graduates people who actually work in the field. Emersy, you know,

(01:17:32):
I don't disagree. I had a terrible experience there. I
don't like it. Um, that's okay. I I enjoy saying
it on Mike. I relish saying it Mike. I owe
them so much money. Um, all right, let's talk. Should
we talk about Opal? We were talking about openly? That's
that's I think our last remains woman big thing, I

(01:17:54):
would say, So what, as far as my interpretation goes
with Opel, you have pretty standard predatory lesbian trope at
play here, where Opel also says some very strange, very
incorrect things about human sexuality. She says that you are
neither born a lesbian or heterosexual. We all have the

(01:18:16):
capacity to go either way, because those are the only
two choicest sexuality goes and the most nineteen eight six
like Guide dialogue, and again suggesting that sexuality is a choice.
So that's of course sexuality is fluid, but um not

(01:18:37):
a choice. So there's a scene early on I think
they are. There are only two scenes between Opel and Nola.
The first one is Opal actively coercing Nola to have
sex with her, because Nola is expressing curiosity about like
what is it like to have sex with a woman
as another woman, and Opal is just being like, well,

(01:18:57):
you could find out if you just have sex with
me right now? Um as perfect perfect. At no point
did they actually describe the ways in which lesbians have sex,
And so I'm wondering did Spike Lee know? Was he
like I also wrote that, I was like, asks the

(01:19:19):
question does not have a character answer question right where
he just put it in the movies, He's just like,
he's like, I'm listening in the original, Yeah, and the
original cut his addresses at the end of the movie
in because you want to write him. It's like a
po box of like, if you know women have sex,

(01:19:41):
do you send a self addressed stamped envelope to the
following so? And then in her later scene when we
touched on this, where Nolah is upset about her relationships
falling apart, Ople seems to take advantage of Nola's vulnerable
state and kisses her without Nola's consent, and then that's
the last we see of Opal. She like walks out

(01:20:03):
of this scene and the movie, so obviously that's extremely
toxic to portray a queer character this way. The series
again does update and improve on this, where Opel is
still a character, but rather than being coercive and like
always trying to get Nola to have sex with her again,
Nola is pan sexual and gets into a like loving

(01:20:27):
and consensual relationship with Opel for a while. Yeah, so
I do. I mean, I think that again, it's like
when you say, like Opal's character is a stereotypically predatory
lesbian trope character, like it couldn't be more true. And
it also like it doesn't feel like the movie has
any idea that that trope even exists. And I feel

(01:20:47):
like it's because it's an otura movie that was made
on such a low budget. I'm assuming that Spike Lee
was not consulting with anybody about this, and so it's
like the very nineteen eighties prejudices are coming to the
table in a way that has a cultural effect. If
your first movie made for you know, as happens to be,

(01:21:08):
you know, put in the fucking Library of Congress, which
I believe this movie is. Um. Yeah, I found I
found that to be so frustrating. And also because it's
like there's moments where it seems like the script is
trying to characterize not care I mean not really characterize
her very much. But there's that scene with Jamie and
Opal where Jamie is so clearly in the wrong and

(01:21:30):
again projecting onto Opal and yeah, he says, Opal, you're
a very beautiful woman. I never would have thought you
were gay, like saying things that I think the movie
does recognize that he is the prejudice asshole and that scene,
but then there's other but then the way that Opal's
character behaves, the movie doesn't have any idea that because

(01:21:50):
like Opal responds to that comment from Jamie saying like
how a person looks has no bearing on their sexuality,
and then he's like, yeah, I guess you're right, which
I think, yeah, as the movie's attempt to be like
I know about lesbians. See, but then the but then
everything else about Opel's character is like, no, you don't,
and then Spike clearly does not. Again it's just like

(01:22:12):
it just seems like Spike LEAs out of his depth
with that storyline. Um in a way that has a
consequence because it's a very famous movie. UM, I want
to I just wanted to give a little bit bit
of context for the movie and how it was received
because we were talking about this off Mike, but this
movie was made for very little money. It was originally

(01:22:34):
shot on a budget of around twenty ish dollars and
then eventually raised enough money for it to have I
guess a total budget of a d seventy five dollars.
But it just mean we've talked about this with a
number of filmmakers in the past, but just how marginalized
filmmakers have such a steeper hill to climb to have
their first project produced. Um, I forget what our last

(01:22:56):
conversation about this was. And but in comparison to Ann
Burt of White Male Au Tours, I think that Wes
Anderson is always the one that we jumped to because
it was like he got a multimillion dollar project based
off of a two minute short film that he made
and they're like, King, like you've done it. You're a
wonder kid. Give it to his child, because I think
he was like twenty six when he made his first movie,

(01:23:18):
and it's and it's just like framed as like this
hero's journey and Spike Lee is in his twenties when
he makes this movie. But it just like listening to
the significantly more difficult time that he had in getting
the movie made. Um, I'm seeing here from our favorite
scholarly journal Wikipedia. The original like twelve day shoot began

(01:23:42):
with eight dollars from the New York State Council on
the Arts, a ten dollar grant from the Jerome Foundation,
and five hundred dollars from the Brooklyn Arts and Cultural
Association Crafty for the day. I'm sure that's all they
could have word who knows, but um, and then consulting

(01:24:03):
I'd be like, keep it, use it, um. And then
that wasn't enough to get the movie through post production.
So then Spike Lee showed a rough cut at n
y U and he said, I'm Spike Lee, and I
hope you liked this film. I'll be calling you soon
about money. You can give me money, which I mean,

(01:24:26):
it's the money he had to. He did what he
had to do. But it's all that to say it
shouldn't have been that hard. I just that Wes Anderson's
story always breaks my brain. It makes me so mad.
I'm never gonna get over it. It haunts me so yeah.
But I meanfortunately this movie was extremely successful. It like
made seven million dollars at the box office off of
a shoe string budget and then completely you know, like

(01:24:49):
launched Spike Lee's career into the stratosphere. Another word that
I feel like it is a kind of like goofy word,
but I meaningful sky bitch. I was gonna say with

(01:25:11):
my words that I have control of her. Um that
we didn't mention this when we talked about the Mars character,
But this is just such a bizarre I'm like, I
don't even know what to do with this. The Mars
black Men character was later used in Nike commercials with
Michael Jordan's so like someone at Nike. I mean, I'm

(01:25:31):
sure a lot of people in Nike he saw She's
got to have it, and their takeaway from the movie was, Wow,
Mars black Man is such a cool character and he
wears Nikes. We should have him make commercials with Michael
Jordan's for shoes. Like it's such a weird idea, but
the commercials are really funny. Isn't okay? Correct me if

(01:25:53):
I'm wrong? I might be completely misremembering this. But wasn't
the movie Space Jam basically made because there were commercials
with again Michael Jordan's and like Bugs Bunny, and then
they were like, we should make a whole movie about this.
Am I is that something, or am I I completely
remembering that incorrect? I don't know. I was literally like,
ask Princess, I don't know. I like, I assume that

(01:26:16):
Princess knows most fun facts about space jams. We might
have talked. I'll just go back and listen to the episode.
But I'm like that. I was like that, and if
that's true for like Mars black Man in a commercial
with Michael Jordan Michael Jordan in a later commercial Bugs
Bunny Space Jam. Michael Jordan is an effective marketer, It's
always been. But just like, I just think it's so

(01:26:38):
bizarre that I don't know, Like just the cultural impact
of this movie is so gigantic that a a b
character from an indie movie was in a Nike conversion.
That's so bizarre. I love it. I say, oh my gosh,
that's so wild. But like, truly, the show that has
one best comedy for like two years is based on
an ESPN two commercial. You know that we just have

(01:27:06):
to accept Yep, this is going to be the basis
and sometimes the result of art. I love intellectual property.
It's beautiful. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts on
the film of two Hit? A small closing. Did you
guys like her art? Her art? I thought it was

(01:27:28):
very eighties, Okay, cool. I was like, I'm watching this
and I'm looking at this art, and I'm like, I
don't think this is supplementing her income to the point
where she could afford this apart bit I just looked
at it. I'm like, I think I literally looked at
it and it it was like, I guess that's what art
was like in the eighties, which is wild because I've
seen art from the eighties and it doesn't look like that. Um,

(01:27:50):
I've heard that is one thing that we didn't say.
It's like, I appreciated it sounds like that it's given
a lot more narrative significance in the TV show, but
that we do know what Nola does, even though it
is kind of a Cary Bradshaw situation of like how
could this lead to this home? But we know what
she does, and we see that it matters to her.

(01:28:11):
We see her working on it, and we see enough
of it that we can be like, it's not even
that good. I wouldn't hang it in my apartment. Think
it's not for me, but I'm happy that it's afforded
her a million dollar apartment. So that's so someone's loving it.
And then what was your other I've completely forgotten it.

(01:28:32):
It's got I'm so sorry. My last thought was the
real protagonist sosist movie is New York City. I love
what don't you love? I love let her to the City.
But also seriously, Spike Lee like used his own brother's
photography of like Brooklyn to like mark the passage of time.
I just the family elements to this movie I thought

(01:28:54):
were very sweet. That's like nepotism I can get behind,
because it's not even nepotism if you need your family
as employees on your movie, like he had like multiple
people in his family he had working as like production assistance,
and it's like I will pay you if I can
get the money. And so it's like it just seemed
more like a I don't know, like Mickey Rooney, Judy Garland,

(01:29:16):
like we gotta put on a show folks, like by
any means necessary, and like got it done. And then
I I mean, I hope Spike Ly at this point
has paid his family for working on She's got to
have it right. He is a multimillionaire. I guess my
final thought is that and I'm also I'm like basically
horizontal right now. I'm like lying down so much. You

(01:29:38):
have started to you were eye to eye and not.
Part of it is I and I might cut this out,
but part of it is I have to poop so badly,
and I'm just kind of like sitting here trying to
like lead in it. I made those vegetables and chocked you,
and I've got blowing our asses up. I'm gonna go

(01:30:01):
home and haven't experienced Yeah, So mostly this posture is
me just holding God. Okay, let's it passes. The Bechtel says, No,
I have this important thing to say that okay, okay,
which is that that this is a movie again directed

(01:30:23):
by a man in the eighties, a famously not very
progressive time, that is mostly commenting on the toxicity of
a lot of different types of men and empowering a woman,
especially in a way that women have historically been so disempowered.

(01:30:45):
That's very cool. Again, there were missed deps along the way.
It wasn't handled perfectly in every regard, but that that
is like what this movie boils down to. It's cool.
I agree, And I also this was something that like
was again and this is like extreme grain assault because
this is what was brought up more in the time
when it was first being reviewed. But a movie that

(01:31:07):
focuses on the sex life of a like middle to
upper middle class black women, which is like, wasn't really happening,
And um, a lot of reviewers sort of made note
of like many of the popular stereotypes around black American
characters at this time, and how this movie just like
existed outside of that world entirely, and it's like, here's

(01:31:28):
our protagonist, here are three shitty dudes. Let's go right,
And it always goes back to like who's making the
movies that perpetuate those stereotypes shitty uneducated white people, right,
and sometimes highly educated. They're like, I have so many
degrees and I still have not learned what black people are.
What are they? Do? You know? Any looking? And then

(01:31:51):
they put their po box at the end of the movie.
If you have any insight, please s A s s um. Yes,
it does pass. The Bay still tests, but not too much,
very much, not enough that it gets scary. I would see.
It's mostly between her and Opal, and those conversations are

(01:32:12):
again Opeal trying to coerce her into sex so it's
not good. And then as far as our nipple scale
zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through
an intersectional Femis lens, oh, I would go with like
a three and a half. I think for this one. Um,

(01:32:32):
it's obviously getting some nippleage docked off for the extreme
mishandling of the sexual assault and the predatory lesbian character,
the failure to further explore Nola's relationships with any female friends,

(01:32:53):
and only just like getting a very small glimpse of
that aspect of her life. This is a small thing,
and I'm sure it is like related to budget stuff,
but I just thought it was like interesting that they
showed her dad and they made mention of her mom
being alive and well but at work and like could
not comment. Can we get like a shot shot that was?
It would have been nice. Weird when he said that,

(01:33:16):
he was like, my wife, we're still together. She's I
kind of wonder if that was like a production thing
of like we were supposed to but like Spike's mom
couldn't make it today and so they're like he's like
just say she's at working, or like if if spike
Ley's mom is anything like my mom. She does not
want to be photographed. So maybe she was just like

(01:33:36):
I shouted at your mom's vagina on Mike today, Caitlin,
what's no wonder? Oh that was the other thing. It's
not about, although I do think she was like, if
you can't pay me, honey, I'm gonna go to my
job where I support was at work, Like I'm not

(01:33:59):
gonna take at day off to not like the rest
of the family is working on your little projects, so
someone's gotta go to work. But the other thing that
I wanted to say is bold move to have your
first movie feature like a nice close up of you
sucking on a nip. That is something that it was,
you know, the movies choice. I don't know, like I

(01:34:22):
wasn't like I feel like sometimes when again, God, we
gotta when men who make movies by themselves, there's another
tendency usually when you're not inviting a lot of feedback
that sometimes the sex scenes are leering and creepy and gross.
I didn't think that this movie fell into that, even
though I did, I mean Kidney's and I think it

(01:34:44):
was a personal preference thing. We didn't love the belly
button thing. I don't think it was offensive. Sticks his
tongue fully into a belly button, inclined a swizzes it
around belly button. I just love it. But again that's
not criticism, that's just a well it didn't it didn't

(01:35:07):
feel good for it. But that's you know, but that's
why there's all sorts of people. That's true. Three and
a half, you were saying, reminder, I have to poop
no um. Yeah, so three and a half nipples. I

(01:35:27):
will give one to Nola, one to Clarinda. I would
have loved to see that friendship more on screen. I'll
give one to Nola's mom, who presumably would have been
played by Spike Lee's mom, but she was like, no, thanks,
I don't want to be busy. And then I'll give

(01:35:49):
the half nipple to the scene where Nola and her
three lovers are playing scrabble together, which is again a
sexual fantasy. I have, I will, I'll meet you there
at three and a half. I think this movie is
doing so much that no movie in six with doing.
I think that the mistakes we have unpacked and are

(01:36:11):
extremely glaring and I found very upsetting. I was gently
encouraged that at least Spike Lee has you know, engaged
in the discussion around it and has admitted where he
is wrong, and it seems like has course corrected in
his future work. I haven't seen all of his future work,
but um, I don't. I don't think that this is
a recurring problem for him. So I think that we

(01:36:32):
sort of I want Caitlin to be able to poop,
So I'll say three and a half. I'm gonna give
I'll give two tenola, and I will give one to
the Phantom of the Opera bed and I will give
the last half nipple to New York City. M hmmm,
I ever heard of it? I ever heard of it.

(01:36:53):
I am gonna ride this three and a half. I
think if you had asked me when I first saw
it ten years ago, it was more than ten years ago.
You said, like ten years ago, and I was like,
I wish, I like being my agent's great, but I'm
gonna hurry up because I need to poop. So it's
honestly fine, Okay, I really do want you to to tell us,

(01:37:14):
because now we're so invested, we will sit around while
you do it. And I wonder how hashtag going in there?
Girl women supporting women let's get a hashtag going. Let
Caitlin poop, Let's get I'll get I'll get the merch
drafted tonight. I know I haven't made new Merchant two years,
but I think that this is really going to bring
me out of retirement. I would love that. Yeah. I

(01:37:37):
would have been given it three nips when I first
saw it, just because I was like, well, this seems
kind of fucked up, but because we were interpreting it
as her getting her comemuppets versus like her. Like it's
still again very dad, but at least she has like
power and agency at the end of this, and it
is her story throughout. So right now three and a half.

(01:37:58):
Okay to to Nola half. To Mars Blackman as a character,
because that was he was in a Nike commercial. I mean,
you can't take that from him. He does suck, but
he's also so likable as a just like Spike Leaves
is extremely likable. The closing track because they do like
the cast basically like introduces themselves with the slate at
the end and then Spike Leaves the last one. You're like, man,

(01:38:19):
he's a fun Yeah, it's fun because he's like action. Okay,
my name because he's the director, and you're like, that's you, dude,
is your That's like the correct amount of ego. I
don't know how he struck the balance, but that is
like the exact you can't go more, Yeah, you can't
go more, but that was perfect. So and the that

(01:38:40):
was two Mr Police, the police. I can't I just
have to say something bad and then I'll give one
to Okay, the remaining nipples. I can't do maths, so
don't ask me to the remaining nipples. Go to the
scene between well, actually all of the sex scenes, because
even now, it is not super common for like a

(01:39:02):
black woman and a black man to be naked together
having sex, especially like neither of them is light skinned,
and that's always like a thing. They're like, we got
a black person, I mean, and then you can barely tell,
but come on, we got one. But this is like, no,
these people are definitely black. They're they're dark, dark dark.
Although Spekey is the only one who doesn't show us,
but and I was like, we see everyone else's but

(01:39:23):
but we don't see how can we catch wow? See,
Now that's the kind of ego that it's like everyone
else showed there, but do you want to be in
the movie or not. It's like you can't be hotter
than me, and you all have to show your butts
and I don't. Okay, and I'm the director, Okay, but yeah,
I like that because I feel like she's strong, she's
empowered so many other images, especially at that time, of

(01:39:45):
darker skin black women, and darker skin in American sense,
not in the African sense. You get it. We're like
these like sex crazed, deficient people. And to show someone
who's like I had a good family, I had a
good childhood. I like sex. I know how I live.
Is it for everybody? But this is how I live,
and I'm very upfront about it. And I really, I

(01:40:05):
really appreciated that she's not getting her value from them
and she's having sex with which is what a lot
of portrayals of black women were before that. Okay, I'm done,
please go poop. Well, you gotta tell first of all,
thanks for being on the show, Cannie. Tell all those
other people who were like close to me in the
number of times that they've been on the show that

(01:40:27):
they Okay, they can try to come from me, but
come on, come on, we will have to set up
a duel. I will fight them. Um. So, yes, thank
you for coming back for a fifth time. Always such
a treat to have you. How can people follow you
online and check out your stuff? Plug all of your
upcoming show dates? Okay, I will, Okay, so you can

(01:40:49):
find information about me at cannesemli dot com. That's why
you'll see show dates and were information. Okay. First off,
on Thursday's ten pm, check out my show Caitlin's Done
It Twice. You're the only person who's done it twice.
Make yourself smoking. It'll be a jacket good at Will.
I'll get it at good Will and I'll sew a

(01:41:09):
little patch on in anything. Yeah, if we gotta get
I mean, you gotta figure out your union. But I'll
let you know. I'm I'm busting it. So it's been hard.
But yeah, the show is called Make Yourself Cry. It
is on Planet Scum, which is Chris Gether's Twitch channel.
I did not know those words before, but you should come.
You should watch it. It's funny, it's heartfelt, et cetera.

(01:41:31):
Watch the episodes of Caitlin. I think one of them
is still on my Instagram, so check that out on February,
come see me at club coming in New York City.
I will be running my hour in preparation for an
album recording. Also in Boston, February whatever, the weekend of
Valentine's Day. I don't keep it in my heart because
I don't have someone I love. I will be in

(01:41:53):
Boston doing comedy. So come there. And then if you
happen to live in Tennessee a city called Bristol, if
you haven't lived there, I'll be doing a weekend there
in March, so you know incredible. I bet we have
at least one listener who lives in Bristol, Tennessee. You
do please come because your presence will make me feel safer.

(01:42:15):
I'm one of those terrible city people that is terrified
as soon as I go to a place with trees.
So I need women and I need black people. Please
come so I feel safe. Okay, I haven't wait. Can
I plug your show? I just go, Oh my god,
I do have to poop, but I took no. Please Jamie, no, Caitlyn,

(01:42:37):
please please, Ji please, you can come see my solo show.
I never I don't know why I don't play it.
You can come see my solo show that I'm working
on in Los Angeles at the Allegian Theater. It's called
Mrs Joseph Chestnut America USA. I play hot Tag eating
champion Joey Chestnut's ex wife and he steals my intestine

(01:43:00):
and then I kill him and that's what that's the
whole show. UM. So if you can't see it, that's
what happens. But that's gonna be on February seventeen at
nine o'clock at the Allegian Theater and we would love
to have some betel Cast listeners there. And you know,
perfect way to come off of Valentine's Day is watch
a show about hot dog divorce. UM. And as far

(01:43:23):
as the backtel Cast goes, you can find us everywhere
that you get your social media addiction scratched. UM. We've
got an Instagram, we've got a Twitter. They're both backtel Cast.
You can sign up for a Patreon ak Matreon at
patreon dot com slash backtel Cast. You get two extra
episodes every month. We're doing what are we calling it
Jane Debruary, Jane January, slash Austin August, Ember, and so

(01:43:52):
we're covering um ONNYA Taylor Joy Emma and Pride and
Prejudice the other movie. Um, so, for everyone who's been
requesting Jane Austen episodes for five years, we finally decided
to listen once. Yes, and then you can get our
merch at t public dot com slash the Epectol Cast.
Be on the lookout for hashtag let Caitlin poop shirts.

(01:44:18):
I'm going to get these texts every day. Where's my
poop shirt? What an amazing friendship? Oh wow? So yeah,
that's you can get our merch. Um and wow, what
a what a joyful time. Our first in person recording.

(01:44:42):
I couldn't have asked for a better one, probably honestly
our last for a while. That's very often. We all
got tested. We're all very satter, etcetera. Please don't come
from me. Okay, yeah, no, we were. We were saying
about this. This This just worked out perfectly. So, um, you know,
happy day you're having and Caitlin's got a poop b
by Nas

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