She's the Man with Samee Junio

Caitlin and Jamie invite special guest Samee Junio to discuss She's the Man and whether or not we like cheese. We're brilliant! Shh!

(This episode contains spoilers)

For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.

Follow @Samee_Junio on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beckel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to
the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name
is Jamie Loftus. I'm sick today. You're sick. Everyone should

(00:21):
feel so bad for me. I feel so bad wondering
the streets, just getting passed by to be like, are
you sick? I'm so sorry. So we are the Bechtel Cast.
We talk about the portrayal of women in movies. We
use the Bechtel test as a test that just initiates
a larger conversation for us, a larger conversation about the

(00:43):
representation of women in cinema. The Bechtel test is a
test that requires that two female identifying characters in a
movie have names, they speak to each other, and their
conversation is not about a man. Yes, Hey, let's demo it.
Let's Caitlyn. Hey, Jamie, have you ever tried pedal light?

(01:06):
I don't think that I have. I've had two jugs.
They only sell them in jug form. For some reason.
We've had two jugs of po Light in the past
twenty four hours, and I started very anti pedia Light,
But like in movies, the PDA light wore me down
and I'm fully in love with Polite. It's my beverage

(01:26):
of choice, replacing Mike's hard lemonade. Even Okay, now it
doesn't pass anymore because you brought Mike into the conversation.
Unbelievable might be. Yeah, I think that pel It's my
new chaser. Okay, good, Yeah, just take a swig of
vodka and a swing of Pedi Light. You're basically sober now.
Ped Light is like a children's beverage, yes, but you

(01:49):
also drink it when you're sick. It's supposed to keep
you hydrated and and safe. You know what other occasion
you might need to be hydrated, like playing soccer. See
where this is going. For example, you did that this morning.
I did that this morning. It was fun my team
one really yeah, sorry, that was that's exciting, thank you? Yeah.

(02:11):
And also soccer related is the movie we're talking about today, Well,
you're talking about She's the Man. This is like our
second soccer movie and our second Shakespeare adaptation we've discussed recently. Yes, indeed,
observation campaigned second movie recently, also by the screenwriting duo
of Karen McCullough and Kirsten Smith. Oh I didn't know that. Yes, wow, oh, yes,

(02:35):
they're you know they're the Shakespeare gals? Right? Is that
what their podcast is called? Just kidding? So to join
us in our discussion about the movie, our guest today
is the producer of Historical Roast and Fictional Roast, the
producer of many podcasts including Forever thirty five and Mother
May I Sleep With Sammy Junia. Hello, it's me, my

(03:00):
dear friends, man, it's me reboot Sammy one. Have you
tried the Electrolyte. They've rebranded Polite to be electro l
y t, Electrolyte or Electrolyte, and they sell it at
seven elevens and I've consumed crates of it. It's great. Well, yeah,

(03:22):
so you don't have to buy a jug. You can
just buy it. I was feeling the stigma of the
plighted jug because that's just like carrying it outside and
Saturday night and everyone's like, she's very sick because she's demented.
If I'm gonna buy it. Everyge hydrated, be careful, she's
demented and very hydrated. So Sammy, tell us about your relationship,

(03:44):
your history with She's the Man. Well, I've seen it
maybe thirteen times in the past day. I was like
once every two hours watching it right now, it's in
Google glass. I watched a lot when I was younger,
and I just I think this movie is so so

(04:04):
flawless and perfect and wonderful and magical. And that's a
that's a relationship. I'm married to the movie. Okay, great,
I can't twelve years strong unbe inspiring. Yeah, truly, congratulations.
I'm also cosplaying you are as an Illyrian. Yes you are.
We will take a photograph. We will post it on

(04:24):
our Instagram. Sammy is dressed as Sebastian and She's the Man.
You're looking very dapper. Thank you, Jamie. What's your history
with She's the Man? It's this morning? Yep, yep. Thoughts
loved it? Yeahs yes, it's so fun. And because it was,
this was like one of the many, like the decade

(04:46):
preceding this, and I think that they sort of like
peter out after this. But this was one of many
Shakespeare adaptations coming out in the late nineties into the
two thousands for teenagers, it was like this bizarre movie
fat and this was kind of the last and the
best that I've seen of all of them. Where were
the other ones? I've got? I've got a hot list

(05:06):
ten things I hate about you in episode the True
Romeo plus Juliet that bas that bazaster as I like
to call the disaster piece called klet is horrified with
the disastrous piece. There's others. I have a power list somewhere.

(05:28):
I'll find it. God, what's happening? I just turned into
who's the Who's the nerdy girl in this movie? I
just sound like her? Oh? Unice, Oh, I can't wait
to talk about Unice. Um. I saw this movie I
think when it first came out in two thousands six,
and I really enjoyed it. But for some reason, it
was not a DVD that I ever added to my collection,

(05:49):
so I didn't watch it throughout the years, which was
a mistake, because I have seen this movie maybe four
to five times in the past, like five days. Addicted, yeah,
and obsessed. Now I'm surprised because you are you. You
are such a soccer head. That right, thank you? That

(06:09):
is stripper name soccer Head coming to the stage soccer Head. Yeah,
I don't know why I didn't latch onto it more.
And this movie is certainly not without its flaws. There
is a whole lot to discuss. Also, motocrossed Twelve Night adaptation.

(06:31):
They all end up having the same stupid like boy hair,
though just like a really weird like flat mop did. Admittedly,
there's also an adaptation of Twelfth Night called just one
of the Guys from five and a gender swept one
called Ladybugs. Oh I didn't realize that was what that was. Yeah,

(06:53):
look at that? Is that another soccer movie? No, Mio
and Juliet locks, that's just another movie that's not Shakespeare. Well.
One of the fun things about Twelfth Night. In shakespeare days, uh,
women weren't allowed to perform as actors on stage, So
in this still are right, right, I mean, are allowed

(07:16):
to do anything. So the actor who played Viola in
Shakespearean times would have had to have been a man
playing the role of a woman who then pretends to
be a man. So it's like gender swapping and then
gender swapping back, like to see what that actor thought
that looks like? Right? Yeah? Well and then and there

(07:37):
are a few we don't need to talk about Shakespeare,
not much. But like, this is like such a good
adaptation of a Shakespeare play because first of all, you
can't necessarily tell that's a Shakespeare adaptation. The names aren't
goofy except for Melvolio, the snake, feminist icon. It's just

(08:00):
like all the like stuff that sounds really Shakespeare was
taken out. Like originally Viola thought that her brother died
at sea, which would have been an interesting thing to
introduce it to this, but I'm glad that they're just like, Oh,
he's in London with his freaking shoegaze band. Have either
of you read the play? Oh no, I can't read
Oh sure, sure, sure, sure I have read it. Okay,

(08:22):
I haven't read it. Um but again I WICKI pediod
I know, so again I'm a scholar. But it seems
as though the story in Twelfth Night is much more
romance oriented, and there's no attempt to like dismantle any
sort of like gender norms or anything like that of soccer,

(08:45):
No soccer at all. It's I think File is just
trying to literally get a job, which is kind of upsetting. Wow. Yeah, well,
shall I do the recap of the movie. Let's do
it all right? This is another this is a complicated one. Okay.
So Viola played by Amanda Bindes, No, no, noa. I

(09:07):
know the beginning song. I know all of the songs.
I sorry, Sammy, this is a no shame zone. You're right, yeah,
please When the moment where Sam's a sharty little secret
starts playing, I haven't encouraged due to just releasing the
whole song. Guy's noticed that there are two all American
reject songs in even it's basically an Apper crownbeat it is.

(09:29):
I bet they smell like that. You know that. The
set of She's the Man reeked of Hollist. Frances absolutely
I used to work at a Hollister. Anyway, it was
the worst month of my life. Okay. Viola is played
by Amanda Bindes and she loves soccer. Her boyfriend Justin
tells her, oh my gosh, you're like better than half

(09:50):
the guys on my team. But then her school cuts
the women's soccer team due to lack of interest. Right, so,
when Viola one to try out for the men's team,
her boyfriend, who had just told her, yeah, you're really
good at soccer. Is like, you're a girl and you're
not good enough. So she breaks up with him toxic.

(10:10):
Now she's got something to prove. Dar Let me. Now
when Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, who I thought for a
second was Drake Bell and that would have been perfect casting. Also,

(10:30):
I was telling Kitlin the other day that I discovered
that Jesse McCartney was supposed to be that guy. Jesse
would have also been both have those soft, soft childlike features.
Were you all into Dreams Street? No, I don't know
what that is. It was Jesse McCartney's boy band, so
I didn't know he was in a boymand. I thought
he was so low. Oh my gosh. You have to
listen to Dreams Baby, because baby down on Dreams Street

(10:55):
and it's like Jesse McCartney as a boy soprato. It's unbelievable, incredible. Yeah. Well, anyways,
so Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, decides to go to London
for a couple of weeks instead of going to school
at a private school called Allyria, which is nearby to Cornwall,
where Viola goes to school, which is a fun Shakespearean

(11:18):
reference for all you shakespeare heads out there. So then
Viola decides to pretend to be her brother so that
she can play soccer on the boys team at Illia
and beat her ex boyfriend Justin, who had told her
that she was a girl. So she's not good enough
in the rival game that they have coming up in
two weeks or twelve days, twelve nights really quick. Yeah,

(11:42):
why does no one at Viola's school notice that she's gone?
Good question, Jamie. The movie does not address that, and
it is a plot hole, but I think the divorce parents.
But I was like Viola straight up, there's another world
where they is like gone girl, because if a white

(12:04):
girl does not show up for her first day of
junior year, it's gone girls, right or a recent release Searching,
which I did see in theaters the other day, brag,
I enjoyed it you anyway. So Viola as Sebastian meets
her roommate Duke played by Channing Tatum, and I'm brilliant.

(12:29):
Oh this would be so funny. Um Duke and everyone
else basically thinks that Sebastian is lame. Viola as Sebastian,
I think, for the sake of clarity, and ease of talking.
When I say Sebastian, what I mean is Viola pretending
to be Sebastian. And then when I say the real Sebastian,

(12:50):
that's that's the right. So so Sebastian tries out for
the soccer team, the men's soccer team, and makes second string,
second string. This is all, this is all I'm doing
during just recap. I'm so sorry. I'm not sorry. Don't
become to hi. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,
welcome to Alliria. So thank you. So then in order

(13:16):
for Sebastian to seem cooler, he uses her. She uses Violet.
It's this confusing. Viola uses her friends Kia and Yvonne
to pretend to throw themselves at Sebastian, and then it works,
And now Duke and all of his friends were like, wow, Sebastian,
she's the man. That's the name of the movie. Yeah,

(13:37):
they all say that in Unison and we're like, what
it's like forty five minutes in. So meanwhile, Duke likes
their classmate Olivia and Dreamy asks Sebastian for help to
try to get with her, and then in exchange, Duke
will be like, I'll help you improve your soccer game, Sebastian,

(13:59):
so that you can first string. So then Olivia starts
to like Sebastians. Now we've got this whole love triangle
like Sebastian pretty much the second she meets right right
right those dropped books in the hall and she gives
him a look, oh my god, twitter painted I wanted
them to kiss, So that that is my That is

(14:20):
my biggest beef is that they don't kiss. And then
we don't see the repercussion of Olivia recognizing that she
had a crush on a girl playing a boy, like,
well what about that, Olivia? Yeah, what what does that mean?
I feel like Olivia is ultimately kind of short change
because she's like, I just love whoever was named Sebastian.

(14:41):
Like that seems a little reductive and confusing. Yeah, So
then Sebastian a K. Viola starts to like Duke and
Viola as Viola I mean, and Duke is Likerea me, yes,
Channing Tatum normally not my type, but he's all so
like a comedic genius. He's so funny. He's so funny.

(15:04):
Every time I talk about Janning dadem I turned into
a woman I hate, Like he's just so he's like
you wouldn't think, but like he's so funny. It's true,
I know. Anyways, So then Viola as Viola and Duke
kiss at a kissing booth at a carnival, which is
a fundraiser for Debutante Ball, which is a whole subplot

(15:26):
that we'll talk about later on. Yeah, the kissing booth,
tenuous loved every second, right, kissing booths? Are they even
legal nowadays? Like at all? Ever? Yeah, there's I don't
think they exist anymore. And I feel like it's like
a real big stretch presents like oh, this is a
fun game of carnival assault, Like what the fuck is this?
And also the fact that like Viola's mom was like, yeah,

(15:49):
this rules, Like I don't know if I believe that.
So now Viola likes Duke, and Duke kind of likes Viola,
but he still has feelings for Olivia, so he's confused.
Kiss her will crap out of her. Thank you for
your contributions. Hey, you're welcome. You can't cut me out

(16:09):
of this one, baby, So Olivia to make Sebastian jealous
starts to pay attention to Duke, and then there's this
whole thing where she marches up and kisses the real
Sebastian who comes back from London a day early, and
then he plays in the first half of the big

(16:31):
rival soccer game as Monique is there the whole right,
there's a Monique situation. Viola as Sebastian is like, hey, brother,
I've been impersonating you. Sorry, but I'm going to play
the rest of the soccer game. And Duke is mad
at Sebastian because he thinks that he betrayed him by

(16:53):
kissing Olivia, and then Sebastian is a fucking idiot from
being like the soccer team like what sir, Like you
just have to suspend your disbelief. So then in the
middle of the game, the real Sebastian shows is drunk.
Viola as Sebastians like, actually, I'm a girl, and Duke,

(17:16):
I love you, and he's like, what's happening, okay, and
the whole click con is revealed. Duke's like, this is weird.
I feel weird about this. So the jig is up,
but there's still the Debutan ball, so Viola is like, hey,
would you want to come to the ball with me,
And he's like, oh no, but then he goes and

(17:37):
then I kiss this slurp. Can I just like, for
your consideration, the day of the big game, let's just
walk through Sebastian's day. The night before, he walks into
a room he's never been, finds out all of his
stuff is already there and appears lived in. He's fine

(17:58):
with it. He's like, well, I'm tired, So he says, like,
you set up on the stuff for me. Cool, So
he addresses it, but it's like it is like what weird? Fuck? Okay,
he goes wakes up a whole soccer teams like the
game is happening, and he's like, okay, maybe I'll see
the girl who kissed me at this soccer game. Why
would that be true? We don't know, because she says

(18:20):
he at the game marrow. She also, surprised kisses him,
which we can mention. But but he goes to the
game except that he is one of the best players
on the team, and then in the middle of the
game someone challenges his gender and he's like, you know what,
I know. This day has been all over the place
so far, but I'm just gonna go ahead and drop
my pants in front of a stadium full of people

(18:42):
because David Cross, I'm not sure what's going on, like
absolutely insane. Anyways, that's excellent point, Jamie. But if you
had that kind of day, wouldn't you roll with it?
I mean, by the time he's asked to drop his pants,
I'm like, you know what, at this point, this day
has already been confusing, right, And on that note, we're

(19:04):
gonna take a quick break and we'll talk to you
in a second and we're back, all right. So for
this movie, you can kind of just like boil down
the story of in order to prove that a woman

(19:24):
is as capable and is equal to men, she disguises
herself as a man to prove a point. If you
can't join them, baby, I love it. So it gives
us a lot to talk about. So on one hand,
there's like in the very beginning of the movie there,
you know, they go to try to try out for

(19:45):
the boys soccer team, when the girls realize that they've
been cut, and the coach of the boys team is
all like, uh, actually, um, girls aren't as fast as boys,
or as strong or as athletic. H this is just science.
So and we in the audience were like, who wha
what excuse me? Pump those brakes and then justin the

(20:08):
boyfriend agrees with the coach and then he is immediately dumped.
So at least we get to see some like misogyny
and sexism being punished right away. And I think that
that is like a moment. I don't know, that was
a moment that I connected with quite a bit of
like dating someone in high school who would be like,
you're awesome, you're smart, you know, but only in one
on one situations, and then in front of guy friends

(20:32):
or friends in general, their attitude towards you shifts because
they're insecure. Right, We've got this like misogyny being punished,
and then we've got a headstrong woman seeking to dismantle
this idea that women aren't as good as men at
soccer specifically, and then she goes undercover, she puts on

(20:54):
the disguise. There's a whole makeover mont but but unlike
see in most movies where if it's a woman getting
a makeover, it's like, oh, you weren't as physically attractive
as you needed to be, so let's make you hotter.
The utility of this makeover montage is very different, yes,

(21:15):
because the mission right, it is mostly just her trying
on mustaches, which she never ends up bummer. I feel
like Sebastia Violas Sebastian would kill with a mustache. Well,
push broom on top of there, boom could do anything.
There was like a there was a I forget what
cartoon villain. She had a few cartoon villain mustaches, like

(21:38):
the long Droopers, the whiskers. Yeah, any ways, they threw
in Jesus in there too. They did beautiful. That was
a fun because I wrote I was in the middle
of writing down month and then I was like, oh,
but wait, it's good. Yeah. So she's the man kind
of puts this, like, I suppose so feminist spin on

(22:01):
the narrative that like Twelfth Night doesn't have, where it's like, yeah,
she's she's showing that she's just as capable as men
and that she's equal to men. But I would argue
that there are several instances where different characters Viola As
Sebastian included, participate in either sexist or homophobic behavior that

(22:26):
often goes completely unchallenged. So for example, there are several
moments when boys behave badly and Viola doesn't do anything
to challenge it. Viola as Sebastian Um. For example, there's
a scene where Violet as Sebastian first goes into her
dorm room. There's like all the soccer player guys there,

(22:47):
and they see tampons and they're like very grossed out
by it. Later on, like Duke can't even say the
word tampon, and but he does use one. He doesn't
feel like kind of commented on a a little bit there,
But I do agree where there are like oftentimes the
hurdles Viola has to get through are rooted in or

(23:09):
she'll get out of by behaving in a misogynist way.
And then they're so like overcome by like misogyny is
so fucking cool that they forget what the thing they
were about to be critical of was. But well, yeah,
I'm I don't know, so it worked for me several times. Yeah,
And in at least whenever she participates in the misogyny,

(23:33):
it's because she's trying to maintain this disguise, because there
are several times where she's like feelings and you know, sensitivity,
you're not going to say a nice thing, and they're like, oh,
what are you talking about? She's like, Oh, I mean,
which one would you rather see naked? So but then
in that same scene, Duke counters that by challenging that idea,

(23:56):
which is something that I really liked about Duke's character.
And they're our flaws in every character, and there are
moments that feel off with pretty much everyone at some
point for me anyways, But that scene I really liked
because Viola was kind of falling on the crutch of like,
let me behave or say something misogynists and that will

(24:16):
distract from what I was just doing. And then that's
one of the few times that it doesn't actually work,
and we find out that Duke is a sensitive man
feminist icon well, yeah, who's who? I feminist? He and
so handsome and sorry, my face is like leaking up

(24:36):
a storm and I'm like no, but turning Tatum is great.
But that scene I thought was really effective where Viola
falls on the crutch and and and then Duke counters
by saying like, well, that's not all relationship is for me,
as I want to be able to talk with and
then he literally says to her to Sebastian, why do
you always say stuff like that? Like why do you
why do you always talk about women that way? And

(24:59):
it's like, oh, And That's one of the things I
like about Duke's character in this movie a lot, is
that the setup of almost every high school movie is
that someone needs to be someone needs to change someone
else in order for relationship to happen. And it's not
like I think it would be very easy for this
movie to be like emotional labor thrust up on Viola. Uh,

(25:21):
some have emotional labor thrust upon them. Uh? Is that
you know, Viola would have to cure Duke of his
own internalized misogyny, but that doesn't really happen where it
comes out in private moments usually, But Duke already is
pretty respectful towards towards women and doesn't need to be

(25:43):
like changed in that way. There's another there's a similar
moment earlier on where they're at the cafeteria and Viola
at Sebastian is again attempting to fit in with the
guys by like that we're seeing he sees Olivia or she.
I don't know what pronouns to use. This pronoun expert

(26:04):
Sammy Juno just kidding. Um, I think, well it should
just be her because she's still she's still identifying as
Viola as a woman. But I mean, yeah, I guess
I think that that's probably it. So experts expert, that's all.
That's all the time I have Goodbye, Okay, So fake
Sebastian sees Olivia and it's like, oh, look at the

(26:29):
booty on that bondie God, such twenties vernacular. A lot
of g money is being tossed about, like lord, just
like Viola trying to be a boy, just like overly
does it all the way. And I think that that's
just like whenever Viola overcompensates by being like super massages

(26:50):
like after being like sensitive or whatever, all of the
boys around her are like, I don't think that's that's
not it though, Well I would argue for inducing the well, yeah,
because they're they're I mean, I think it's because of
the presence of a of a woman that they're like,
oh yeah, like we can really do this with because
it's about a girl. But like every other time they're

(27:11):
kind of just like that, you're weird, Yeah, so do
whenever like Sebastians like, oh, check out the booty on
that blondie. And then Duke is like, don't talk about
her that way, and so we're like, okay, Duke feminist icon, right,
But then his friends Toby Andrew say like, oh, yeah,
she was just dating this college guy but he dumped her,
so now she's like super vulnerable. Her confidence and self

(27:35):
esteem are really low, so like now is the time
to pounce, and they're like and then like Duke, Duke
doesn't respond at least verbally to that. So it's like,
I'm not really inclined to give Duke a point there,
because the only woman he stands up for is the
one he has feelings for, true, and that same respect,

(27:55):
he doesn't stand up for Yvonne or what's the name
of the other friend okia, Like, he doesn't stand ups.
He just stands up for the girl that he's had
a crush on for his whole life. Right. And then also, um,
anytime he has to interact with the Unice character, he's
always like, oh, like, I don't want to talk to Eunice.
That's also everyone she's that's true, And except at the ending,

(28:18):
which I need to watch the movie again, that comes
totally out of nowhere, right, or is that foreshadowed in
any way? What the units ending up with? What's that
character's name? Oh that's I think Toby. Oh no, he says,
he says something about Unice. Uh oh does he? There's
two other times so he once they think that Sebastian

(28:38):
is the top dog. Oh no, no, no, it's before that.
When Duke is paired up with Unice in lab he goes, yeah,
you just go something something. And then and then also
in Cesario's when it's the double date between Duke and
Olivia and Viola and Unice, he goes, looks like you

(29:01):
is like cooler than we thought. And he goes, oh,
what I've been saying that for years? I hate high school? Right?
But so the the scenes, look I those are all
direct quotes. It probably I've also watched this movie with commentary,
so to speak. On Channing's sensitivity, he actually the ring.
He wears a ring around his neck, and he said

(29:23):
that there was a character choice because it's his He
wanted it to be his mother's ring, just to like
play on the fact that he's like super sensitive and stuff.
And if you watch him through the entire movie, he
does like react really weird when Sebastian goes like nutty
because he defends Olivia in the cafeteria, but also when
they're setting the trap that Sebastian is really cool, like
he's also like this is gross, Like he gets really

(29:46):
interpreted that way. I feel like he was like, oh, well,
like Sebastians the man. So let's talk about that scene.
So that's the first scene we see in like the
pizzeria where Cesario has another fun Shakespeare rap wish. So
Austian fake Sebastian is trying to seem cooler to their peers.

(30:07):
I'm just going to use their pronounced but that's the
easiest thing for me right now, it's not it, so
hold on next. So we should we we should be
saying shape because yeah, also maybe to not come off
as offensive, I'm non binary and my pronouncers sam they there.
So I feel like I've like I've gone through a
pronoun journey myself when I feel like the appropriate thing

(30:29):
is right, Okay, come at me. If that's not true,
it's okay, I'll learn as well. The mentions are open, right, Okay.
So fake Sebastian sets up this whole. It's actually her
friend Paul is like, yeah, we're gonna make you seem cool.
So then Kia and Yvonne violence friends pretend to throw
themselves at fake Sebastian, and then the guys on the

(30:52):
soccer team are like whoa, Like Sebastians have fucking stood
like he's getting all kinds of women and they just
think that he the'se the cats me out then sorry,
I'm listening speaking of cats though, um, this is not
an intentional segway, but cats do have eight nipples cat

(31:13):
facts with Caitlin. But anyway, so he had to do
it to them, right, So this whole like scam basically works,
and now Duke and his friends are like, Wow, Sebastians
the man. But that whole scene requires fake Sebastian to
heavily objectify these women. To me, it seems like Duke
is like, oh wow, like Sebastian is so cool. It's

(31:35):
like it's a quick cutaway and he just like does
this for a second, like before he dabs, before all
of the hooplack comes, Like he's just like what is this?
Like it's a very quick thing. I watched this movie
so closely so many times, so you think he's but
after after the girl's situation, then they're like, oh, yeah,
make room for the man because that's it. But like

(31:57):
there's a there's a second. I feel like that's not enough.
I feel like he's still subscribing to miss shot. Yeah,
because I I'll screenshot it to you. I totally believe you.
I just yeah, that whole scene knows us like is
anyone acting like anything here, like what is happening? Which
is just like, it's really unfortunate that that's the way

(32:18):
that a boy has to fit in is to be
this gross dude that has many girls and insults and
just uses them clearly, and then everyone's like, oh, yeah,
you're a really great guy. It's like why right, And
I know misogyny is alive and well now two thousands
in my experience, really, I'm sorry this somehow escaped, right.

(32:45):
But but the fact that that ends with Viola confronts
Monique because Monique is in this scene too, which is
like the closest call because Monique would know who Sebastian
isn't right, because Monique is real Sebastian's girlfriend, and that
character is also all over the place where she is
like a bit but we don't really know why or

(33:07):
know anything about her um and it does seem like
she's perhaps being emotionally abused by Sebastian. But anyways, uh,
she shows up and she's like, where's Sebastian and then
she doesn't recognize that it's not her own boyfriend, and
Viola is like, you're ugly, I'm breaking up with you.
And then byola fully everyone's like, yeah, that hot ladies

(33:30):
you yelled at her, and then it end of scene.
So it's insane. So I think the point here is
that it's unfortunate that we see in in a movie
that has the opportunity to have more challenging of sexist
ideals of like, yeah, a guy is a stud whenever

(33:53):
he has slept with a bunch of women. And that's
the approach that they use for sebad Question to seem
cooler to her peers. But that could have been an
opportunity for Viola to be like, no, I'm not going
to like subscribe to this, I'm gonna like fine. I mean,
I get it. It's it was an easy choice and

(34:15):
it worked, But I don't know, Like, I just have
higher hopes than is reasonable to expect out of a
movie from two thousand and six. So it's just it's
kind of a bummer that that's the scene that plays
out to get Viola as Sebastian to be accepted by
her peers, but could also be seen as a very

(34:35):
heightened version of what would be realistic because they like,
for the second argument, the group of guys, the soccer
dudes are like interpreting Sebastian's masculinity is abnormal, that he's
like a weird dude, because Viola s Sebastian is acting

(34:56):
very weird like and it is acting like crazy person,
and you know that is like the example of the opposite,
like if you can't beat them, join them, where Biola
is playing to what they do understand to be masculinity
in order for them to be like, well, yeah, he's
a freak, but he folks like that is all that

(35:16):
that is trying to accomplish and it's successful. Um yeah,
it's I don't really know where I land on it,
because it's also a very funny scene and it's like, well,
the fact that except for mooning, the moaning thing made
me feel bad for her, but Kia and and Ivan
are like so in on it that it's like fun

(35:36):
for them, and it's like you don't have to feel guilty,
which is maybe like a horrible loophole, is like you
don't have to feel guilty watching these women be kind
of like yelled at and groped because it's their friend.
But like, but that is so funny. I don't know. Yeah,
it's it's complicated. Well, let's take a quick break and
then we'll be back to talk more. Okay, and we're back,

(36:04):
all right, So the next thing I wanted to talk
about is God, there's so much Okay, really quickly. I
really like that Olivia likes who she thinks of Sebastian
because Violet as Sebastian is sensitive and isn't this like
big tough, macho guy. And that's like the main thing

(36:26):
that appeals to Olivia about Sebastian. Relatable, yes tbh, But y'alla,
Sebastian pretty good looking kids, I hear it. Yeah, cute
and sweet and yeah, like not threatening and not like
just like carrying around a bunch of like machismo everywhere.

(36:46):
That's how I describe myself. Mugging to speak to what
you texted me earlier on Caitlin. Mugging maybe a few
too many times. So the one where it's like, is
this a feature film? Maybe, yeah, Amanda Bind's mugs a
whole lot, but like also works, it works for me.
And then Viola and Olivia have a conversation whenever Violet

(37:12):
as Sebastian is trying to get Olivia to date Duke
and she's like, no, Like, he just seems like another
one of these dumb jocks that you know wants to
hook up with a girl so that you know, you
can tell us friends about it. But we learn that
that isn't true about Duke, and then that's one of
the main reasons that Viola is into him then because

(37:33):
they have these like long discussions like what Duke thinks
is like a man on man pow wow, but what
he doesn't know is Sebastian's real identity. But yeah, I
like that in many cases in this movie, and not
all the time, because we just talked about the times
that this doesn't happen. But sexist behavior is punished and

(37:54):
the opposite of sexist behavior behavior behavior is appreciated and rewarded,
I suppose. So that's nice because in a lot of
movies like this where let's go back to like Ten
Things I Hate about You. For example, in that movie,
it's like, Okay, we've got a feminist, headstrong character, but

(38:18):
those qualities are seen to be very shrewish, and so
no one likes her because of that, and then the
guy lies to her throughout the entire movie, and then
he is rewarded even though he's been behaving badly. I'll
say it again, Uh, ten Things I Hate about you.
It's a stinker. I know everyone's attached to it, but
as someone new to the ten Things I Hate about You,

(38:39):
fold it's stinker. Well that's a boo from Jamie. Okay, well,
I get it. It's uh. It does not handle a
lot of things well at all. Don boo boo boo boo. Alright,
I feel like you were singing a different tune a
few episodes ago when we talked about it. I feel
like you said you liked the movie. Can I watched

(39:02):
it again and I liked it even less the second
Oh interesting, Yeah, that'll happen anyway. So back to she's
almost caught it. She's all that okay, also a good one. Yeah, well, sticker.
But and another example of a movie where bad behavior

(39:22):
in misogyny is not punished and is instead rewarded. The
only thing that you need to do to get a
boyfriend has changed literally everything about you. Yeah, that's what
I have to do up, dang it. So anyway, I
like how this movie handles a lot of things, and
that the whole movie is like a quest for a

(39:43):
woman to prove that she is as capable as men
and then succeeds in achieving that. But there are more
problems here. They are For example, there are quite a
few no homo moments. It's usually between Duke and Viola
as Sebastian, So for most of the movie Duke thinks

(40:06):
that Sebastian is a ciss het man, But then there
are moments where Sebastian will like linger too long on
a hug or be like you're not going to talking
to girls? How can that be? You're hot? And then
Duke always responds, well discussed, what yeah? And then there's

(40:27):
like a moment where the tarantula, the spider the eight
legged female or spider facts with Caitlin feminist icon Melvolio
shows up in their dorm room and then they both
scream and get on the bed and they're like holding
each other and then then when which starts as a
good moment and then it's kind of sold out. Yeah,
so Duke's are like, oh gross, and don't ever do

(40:49):
that girl voice again. That freaked me out. So why
can't they does both be afraid of the Spider? Also,
why don't they sit down and listen to what Melvolio
has to say because he's read the feminine mystique and
he has a lot of really good points he'd like
to make, and he's a feminist iChon. And I think
that there's a direction of this movie where if they
just sat down and had discourse with the Spider, you know,

(41:10):
he's would have been a different Yeah, we should invite
the Spider on the podcast to see what was a
queer icon as well. I mean this is like I've
had great talks with Amalia anyways. So and then during
the soccer game at the end whenever Viola is like
I love you, Duke, and he's like what this is weird?

(41:33):
And Viola was like, I'm Viola, I kissed you and
he's like, oh, girls, no you didn't, because he again
still thinks that Sebastian is a boy. So there's these
different moments that like I it is very like to that.
I mean, it still happens now, but like two thousands queer,
panicky moments, right that didn't need to be there, And

(41:56):
you could argue, oh, well, you know, it's in line
with character. But they also had an opportunity to subvert
that trope of casual homophobia in movies and they didn't.
So one of the things I liked best about this
movie is that for the first half of the Big Game,

(42:17):
which why I don't all movie, then with the Big Game,
uh so they're at a big game and the first
half is just like real Sebastian being chaotic and it's like, yes,
I am soccer, Now here's my dick, and you're just like,
what is happening? And then but the fact that Viola
gets to finish the game as herself and playing with

(42:39):
her hair down, not in a ponytail. That's unrealistic. But
I I was going to ask you that, okay, But
but the fact that she gets to finish the game
as herself with total acceptance of her team and her coach,
I thought was so great. I didn't think that that
was going to happen. Yeah, I thought she was going
to finish the game as sebast That is really cool.

(43:01):
And then we see that moment where she reveals her
true identity. She's like, I'm Viola. I played on the
team to you know, prove this point. And then the
coach of the opposing team is like, girls can't play
in this league, and he's he's the same guy at
the beginning who was like, girls are scientifically bullshit, right exactly,

(43:23):
And then we get the great line read from coach
what is it dinkly away on what manual here? We
don't discriminate based on gender? Beautiful, Thank you very much.
That's my sad. So my blood pressure is like rising

(43:45):
with each beautiful. So, like you said, Jimmy, the team
at all, area, the coach, they're all on board to
have Viola play as herself. She gets the goal, she
gets the goal, she scores the game winning goal, there
by proving she set out to prove. Here's here's a
question the fact that and these are like small gripes

(44:07):
with with a movie that does so much right, but um,
justin her ex One of the like things we know
about him is that Channing Tatum made him cry during
a soccer game. And that is like, you know, not masculine.
And then at the end Viola makes him cry. But
I still feel like it's like kind of that for
all of Justin's toxic masculinity is played for a laugh

(44:30):
in a way that I was like, a man, that's
they missed that one of like this boy crying looks
like so fucking dumb. And then when they talk about
it before the time that Duke makes him cry in
an earlier game, Yeah, it's all like, I mean that,
what a pussy cry? And then they address him about
it in person and he's like or something like we're

(44:51):
going to do drowned me in your tears. In a
movie that at least attempt to celebrate like male sensitivity,
it also does that mistakes were made. Mistakes were made,
and there's more. There's that. There's also the mistake of
if the situation was presented to the headmaster that a

(45:16):
person was trying to pull off being the opposite gender,
and they decided to out them during this big old
soccer game, a big game with with the loudspeaker megaphone,
Why would that? Why is that the choice? Right? There's
a lot of the big game mistakes, Like there's a
big bird act kind of for sure a little bit

(45:39):
because for all they know, this Sebastian person is trans
and then for yeah, for them to be like he's
actually a girl and the girl and then he pulls
down his pants, everyone sees his penis. Unice is having

(46:00):
a wonderful time. It has a conniption, even though I'm
pretty sure she is facing his butt and not his
but anyways, whatever is action until now she's got like Toby,
who's like a cutie to he's cute, he's cute. Tricks.
But yeah, Sammy, to your point, not only would that

(46:24):
be very problematic for them to out Sebastian because they
don't they don't know what the circumstances are. Right. The
other thing that this movie subscribes to is the idea
that if you have a penis, you're a man, and
if you have breasts, you are a woman. She's the man, right,
super cisnormative because both fake and real Sebastian to prove

(46:48):
that they are the gender that they identify as they reveal,
you know, bathing suit parts will say mom, stop, wow,
cut that out. Hope I'm keeping it. So yeah, it's
just subscribing to this idea that your genitals determine your gender,

(47:09):
which we know is false. And it's the second Shakespeare
adaptation from this pair of screenwriters that has a character
flashing their boobs, which it's like, get a new trick,
Kirsten and Karen. Um and that's all. This movie was
also co written by you and Lesley, by Malfolio, the

(47:32):
famous spiders that kind of louder voice in the writers room. Um, no,
by you and Leslie, although Jamie you you would probably
call him but anyway, but that's neither here nor there.
So yeah, another mistake that this movie makes is the
sith normative bullshit of your genitals determining your gender. The

(47:56):
only points I'll give that because it's just like not necessary.
And also this movie was listed for containing nudity, which
it doesn't know either way. The only thing, the only
improvement that makes upon ten things I Hate about you
as it leaves you know, Sebastian shows his parts and
Viola shows her parts as opposed to just a titty flash,

(48:20):
but I say, we we we we do away with
it in that context all together exactly. And then David
Kross as the Headmaster who participates in a number of
very funny visual jokes where throughout the movie he is
handing out food in the cafeteria. He comes in with
a plunger. At one point he's like snipping a shrub.

(48:42):
He's like cleaning the windows. He just does all. He's
the headmaster, but he he's so involved in his school.
He does it all anyway. Very funny, he says, as
he's like outing Sebastian as a girl, he says, you know,
actually he's been impersonating his own sister Viola for reasons
which will become very clear after extensive psychoanalysis, kind of

(49:04):
implying that if you present as a different gender from
the one that you were assigned at birth, you need
psycho analysis. Something's wrong with you psychologically. Um so bad, bad,
bad bad. He does have a good I feel like
it was kind of a good moment when he's talking
to what's what's the squirrely bad guy's name, Malcolm. Yeah.

(49:29):
When Malcolm is talking to the headmaster and Viola as
fashion passes by, talking in normal Viola voice about wearing
a dress and high heels, there is a moment where
it could have been where Malcolm is just like, that's weird.
But then the Headmaster is just like, have you ever
tried running away? Running down? Yeah? I was like, well,
that's that's that that that was a good opportunity to

(49:50):
not be a dick, and he wasn't. Yeah. And also
what Violen is saying on the phone is great. Yeah.
Feminist icon says, yeah, heels were invented by men to
make women's butts look smaller and to make it harder
for them to run away, which is something I've been
saying for decades. So thank you for let me look

(50:11):
at your stiletto heels. Wow, I played soccer in them
today and you were not slowed at all. And the
reason she's talking about heels is because of the debutante
ball and I have a lot to say about this. Okay.
So in the movie, Viola's mom wants her to be

(50:32):
a debutante, wants her to be a lot more feminine.
Isn't thrilled with the whole soccer playing thing reminiscent of
Kira Knightley's mom's character and bend it like Beckham where
she's like, oh, like soccer's growths and you should wear dresses.
So for most of the movie, Viola rejects the idea
of needing to present as super feminine, and that ranges

(50:55):
from wearing sporty, pretty gender neutral clothing, not wanting to
be a debutante and these like frilly gowns, and then
that ranges all the way to literally dressing as a boy.
So I think it's cool that she is, like she
spends the entire movie rejecting these sort of gender norms.
That is to say, if you want to present that way,

(51:18):
that's fine, and that's anyone's choice, but society's expectation has
long been the more feminine a woman presents, the better,
which is unfair and unrealistic and yeah, not great. But
at the end of the movie, after Viola has spent
all this time, you know, rejecting these norms of needing

(51:38):
to present a super feminine, then she goes to the
debutante ball. She wears the gown she presents as super feminine,
and the idea of women expecting to present as feminine,
men expecting to present as masculine, there being no room
for anyone to fall anywhere else on the spectrum. It

(51:59):
would have been better if she know showed the ball. Yeah,
because those like rigid gender norms that have been challenged
throughout the movie go back to like being intact. I
feel like a lot of the statements that are made
about gender throughout the movie feel like they're almost kind
of undone by this ballroom scene. I mean not really,
but it's just like, why did this movie have to

(52:20):
end with this ball My theory is that the trope
that I do not like of like high school movies
always ending in prom or like a spring formal. It
doesn't make sense for this movie to end in prom
because it happens two weeks into the false school year. Also,
we were just at a big game, we had the
high school at the moment. Yeah, So for then there

(52:43):
to be another basically prom event at the end of
the movie just feels unneeded and it like reverts back
to all these like weird, rigid gender norms that the
idea of, like being a debutante really in stills. So
I didn't like that. I had something I wanted to

(53:04):
discuss really quickly about the reception this movie received when
it was originally released. This movie has a forty three
percent on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm not surprised, which right, but
not because as we have been discussing, it is a
well written movie. There's not that I mean considering the

(53:29):
fact that it's a successful, well done Shakespeare adaptation, which
is so hard to do, and the characters are explored
and well realized for the most part, with this movie
didn't fare very well. And this goes back to something
that we recently found out. The Annenberg Inclusion Initiative did
a study on film criticism and this year, and I

(53:52):
can't imagine how much worse this issue was in two
thousand and six, of almost sixty movie reviews written between
and teen s were written by men were written by women.
Uh So in film criticism there is a massive gap
and who decides what's good and and and that informs

(54:12):
what people see a lot of the time. And in
two thousand's and six, I have to assume this issue
was even worse and and and that is telling in
the way that this movie was reviewed. There was one
stuck out to me as particularly annoying. Where is it?
It was from not Ebert what's his name? But there

(54:37):
are a lot of the criticism of this movie was
focused on that Amanda Binds did not play a man convincingly,
which betray is far more about the writer than the movie,
because that just is, you know, evidence of how rigid
their view of masculinity is. Joel Siegel, in a lame
attempt to amuse older teens, She's the Man, manages to

(54:58):
alienate the parents of the younger one with tampon and
gender jokes. Richard Roper Mere words cannot convey how awful
Binds is at playing a girl playing a boy. Uh So,
I mean, and and this movie was financially successful, had
a budget of twenty million dollars, made uh fifty seven
million dollars at the box office. But you have to

(55:21):
think if it were better reviewed or reviewed by a
more diverse pool of people, that the reception of it
would have been quite different, and it wouldn't have a
rotten tomato so much lower than it deserves, I know.
And then think about the I mean, but like also
think about the movies that we've done, and I mean,

(55:43):
for example, Devil's Advocate, Let's see what Love actually has
on rotten tomatoes, a movie that performs horrifically bad with
gender issues, uh actually has sixty Um So there there
are movies that are extremely misinformed, border unhateful towards gender
and gender roles that are considered classics versus this movie

(56:06):
that for the most part, performs very well across the board,
and it was sort of at the time not quite panned,
but not received very well. Yeah, yeah, that's so upsetting.
So this would be a reminder to our listeners that
if you're reading a review of a movie that deals

(56:26):
with issues like this, or for instance, if you're reading
a white writer reviewing a movie with a diverse cast
and directed by someone other than someone exactly like them,
take that criticism with a grain salt, because they may
not actually know what they are talking about. I wanted

(56:48):
to talk a little bit about Unice. She is the
not I just Unice is great. I just I think well,
like she moon walks into the friend steps that was
her choice, like a lot of I read. David Cross
improvised a lot of his stuff. Amanda Bindes also improvised

(57:11):
a lot, and then Unice didn't. Un who plays unsh
I don't know her name, but she has some of
the most famous person in the whole world and act
just named Emily Perkins, who has since been Oh she's
the receptionist in Juno. Oh, the one who's like, whoa,

(57:32):
there are condom flavors. Whoa and that is what pretty much. Well,
she's great in this So the thing I want to
say about her is that she's also in this movie.
She's dirty, yes, a lot of things. Um Well, the
thing I want to say about her is that this movie,

(57:54):
and so many movies, take a character who is not
conventionally attractive by Western beauty standards, and sometimes it's something
as simple as she's wearing glasses. In this case, she's
got glasses and braces and some headgear, but the movie
will like turn her into a punching bag. Basically, it's like,
look at this disgusting woman, just like makes a joke

(58:16):
out of the whole thing, when in reality we should
be critical of her for being thirty and in high school. Also,
Channing Tatum this Sea, but yeah, I don't like that
because pretty much everyone else in this movie is conventionally attractive.
So to take like the one character who the movie

(58:37):
has made to seem not as conventionally attractive and then
put her in scenarios where like she's on a date
with someone, or you know, like Channing Tatum has to
talk to her, it's always like, oh, I can't believe
I'm stuck talking to this super lazy I think this
falls into the same bucket of lazy writing that like

(58:57):
Liz Lemon would fall into of Like, here's a woman who,
if you took this weird prop off of her would
look completely like conventionally attractive, but we're just going to
have everyone in the movie ship on her and call
her not hot to distract from the fact that that
is not actually the case. And like it seems like
a more egregious version of like the Lis Lemon issue

(59:20):
of like down to the like I like cheese, like
shot up like funk off. Anyways, that's a funny line
though almost more than any other animal byproduct. I could
like that. And then I'm like, what if Channing Tatum
is like tell me more instead of being please? Right, Yeah,

(59:43):
so I didn't care for that. That happens a lot.
I feel like that happens with like Aquafina's character her
brother in Yeah Crazy Rich Asians, where like he's not
conventionally sorry, um, he is not as conventionally attractive. Oh,
he's like the weirdo creepo guy. When like it's I

(01:00:05):
hate these like tropes that it's a microaggression. Yeah, and
movies need to stop doing that. Yeah, but also, I
mean everything Units does I'm on board for. It's just
the way the movie treats are exactly. That is not fair, right, right, right, exactly.
There's a there's a weird moment. I don't have any
particular view of it, but at the end, it's almost

(01:00:28):
like they accidentally did a little parent trap. Uh where
the parents are? You know, it's clear they've been divorced
for a while. That seems to be why no one
notices that their teenage daughter hasn't gone to school for
two weeks. But that the end, Viola is like, well,
why don't we all discuss this issue over dinner tomorrow
all four of us and the parents are and the

(01:00:50):
parents are like, yeah, can I have your number? What's
your email address? It was like, it's literally Quate and
Richardson over here. It's that's true. A couple of fun
little things I wanted to mention. Channing Tatum is wearing
a Duccatti jacket for part of the movie. Um, he's

(01:01:10):
a bad boyfriend life, he's a bad boy. He's not
like the others. If anyone out there is keeping track
of my name anagrams, which you might be familiar with
if you've listened to a few recent episodes that I
guessed on of the Daily Zeitgeist. I'm Latin dancer U
t I. I am a cat turd inline Caitlin Durante

(01:01:33):
also anagrams to internal Duccatti. So that's a good So
watch out. I have I have one more observation about
parents that I should have said while you were talking
about the debutant Paul, but then I didn't because I'm
flawed too. But I think that that was yet another

(01:01:56):
missed opportunity that this movie has to have some sort
of And this is something and I'm only thinking of
this because it happens in another soccer movie very effectively,
bend It like Beckham, where Kira Knightley's mom in Bendett
like Beckham, and Amanda Buyds, his mom and She's the
man are very similar type characters where they want to
force a very traditional idea of femininity onto their daughter,

(01:02:19):
and Bendett, like Beckham, they have a dialogue about it
and there's some conversations had between the mother and the
daughter that doesn't really happen in this movie. Granted, there's
a lot of stuff going on I don't know if
we necessarily have time for it, but in in you know,
for instance, in lieu of Viola going through with the

(01:02:40):
debue tant ball, why is there not a conversation between
her and her mother that could probably be pretty productive
about why she is not interested in doing it? Um, So,
there is a very short conversation early on where her
mom's trying to get her to like agree to this
debut tap ball thing, and Viola says like, I have

(01:03:00):
no interest in being a debutant, Like I think they're archaic,
so could have been spoken, but then she ends up
appeasing her and do exactly. So that felt like kind
of right, that's yeah, that's one of my big problems
with the ball scene. But oh, one last thing I
wanted to talk about is the Paul character being being

(01:03:27):
what I interpreted to be queer coded. Well, yeah, at
the end, he's with not Toby, the other one and
kind of like grooming him a little bit, which is like, okay, yeah,
there's like a very quick glimpse, and then before that
he's sort of like the Harvey fire Steam character from
Mrs Doubtfire where he like does the whole makeover of Viola,

(01:03:51):
and the queer quoting in this movie isn't as horribly
done and egregious as it is in some movies. But
but queer codd dirt equals makeover is kind of like
a fairly standard lazy writing. Yeah, it's very tropy. Yeah
they could have again another thing that could have been subverted,
but instead was like, you know, double down on. Paul

(01:04:12):
does deliver my favorite line of the movie, hit it
and he goes be a good boy and then Boyle
has to walk off. I got goose bumps every time.
It's like, oh, that's nice laying along. I mean, all
of Viola's friends, uh, in spite of their kind of
shoddy writing, are good friends. Yeah, very supportive friends. And

(01:04:34):
when they're blocking. We didn't really get to Monique, but
she's so all over the place that I don't even
know what we could say. Well, that is an example
to me of a like female rivalry in a movie
that there's no groundwork laid for why that would be.
So they hate each other and it's not totally clear why.
I mean, it's like Boyle is like, oh, I don't

(01:04:56):
like her because she's dating my brother, and well, Monique
is pretty mean, but I feel like that's such an
underthought character. I don't even want to give the writer's
credit for thinking about it this hard. But there is
like sort of a tendency in some movies for a

(01:05:17):
female character like Monique, who when you think about it,
you know, her boyfriend keeps disappearing and not telling her
where he's going. He's constantly bailing on her. It makes
sense she would feel insecure and neglected in this relationship
because she is neglected in this relationship. How that translates
to a dislike of Viola isn't clear to me, But

(01:05:37):
I didn't love that the movie treated her genuinely being
neglected in a relationship as like what a bit psycho
exactly where I mean, I think the story would like
for you to feel that way about her, but it's
just totally it's just a total misfire of like, yeah,
it's like a combination of the female rival reach out

(01:05:59):
and just like demonizing a woman having needs. Yeah, that
I didn't like. And there is that like a girl
fight scene that happens in the bathroom of like the
debutante training that is an fight, But then I was like, oh, like,
why do we need to see that. But then there's
also like a boy fight at the carnival, so I'm like, okay,
at least there's like a balance struck. I love the boyfriend.

(01:06:23):
This is a lovely children's carnival. Doctor. We should watch
the movie together again, just so you can like yesterday night. Oh,
I glitter in the entire time. One last thing I
want to say is that Viola as Sebastian in biology

(01:06:44):
class is like dissecting some sort of animal and faints
because women, but Olivia didn't. That's true. Yeah, Olivia seems
to do have done like most of the work women's stem.
Viola's a woman in stem sort of. She's a nice call,
but I always a bastly like said that in the beginning.

(01:07:05):
Once they pair it up in class, I was like,
you know what this stuff, I can't really do it,
and all of you is just like I love you. Yeah,
She's like, you're so sensitive. She unicsed him. Then take
oh one more final shout out to Channing Tatums. I'm sorry,

(01:07:28):
I'm a wine mom again. Channing Tatums impeccable comedic timing
on the when he's on the flip phone and he
bonks his big old meat head on the thing and
he's like hello, Like, it's just it's such a good scene. Oh,
I love he's a comedicus. He's so funny. I don't know,

(01:07:51):
I need to call my mom about this. Does anyone
else have any other thoughts about She's the man? You know,
overall mistakes were made, but a modern classic. So let's
talk about whether or not this movie passes Bechtel test.
It does. There are scenes between in the very beginning,

(01:08:13):
whenever Viola is talking to her teammates Kia and Yvonne
about like having their team been cut. They're talking about
like where she wants to play soccer in college. She
and his mother talk about the debutante b oh, they
do mention justin in that they do mention yeah. Later
on that scene, but there's a few lines why don't
you do a mom? And she's like, I couldn't. That

(01:08:35):
reminded me of my mom Horny moms representing horn So yeah,
there's quite a few conversations that pass the Bechtel test
between several different combinations of characters. So that's cool, Um,
good job. It's like when first time listeners of this
podcast think that that's what the whole podcast is about there,

(01:08:58):
like it's the whole time, are we we're trying to
what figure out? Like wait, but does it? It's like
it's pretty clear that it's not too hard to figure
out totally. Anyways, Shall we read the movie on our
nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal
and representation of women. I'm going to give this movie

(01:09:23):
I think three. I'm docking off a couple nipples for
all the mistakes that makes, which is the casual homophobia
that for the most part goes unchallenged for some of
the moments of misogyny that go unchallenged, most notably the

(01:09:45):
scene where in order for Violet as Sebastian to be
accepted by her peers, she has to objectify women and
seem like this awesome stud to be cool and to
be the men the sis normative idea that your genitals
determine your gender identity, things like that. This is also,

(01:10:08):
as most movies we come across, a very white movie.
The few characters who are people of color are for
the most part sidelined, but just the story of a
woman seeking to prove that she is equal to her
sort of male peers and then succeeding in that quest

(01:10:31):
is just a cool story that we don't really get
to see that often, and I like that in the adaptation,
even though there is like a romantic subplot with Duke,
the main story still is largely like proving that she's
a capable soccer player, whereas in the original play it
seemed like it was mostly just entirely about the romance.

(01:10:54):
So I like that it deviates from that quite a bit. Um.
So yeah, I think three nipples, and I'm gonna give
one to the scene in the gym where Channing Tatum
is the best comedian ever to have lived that whole scene, yes,
exactly two. And then my other two nipples I'm going
to give to Amanda Binds for um being a comedic

(01:11:18):
powerhouse in this movie. For uh, you know, we didn't
talk about this, but her sort of fall is very upsetting. Yeah,
I love her. She's great, and this is a fun movie,
not without its flaws, but I really enjoy this movie.
Three nipples. I'm also going to give it three or

(01:11:40):
actually I'm gonna give three and a half nipples for
for all the reasons you stated, Caitlin, Um, it is
a very white movie. There are a lot of blind
spots in terms of homophobic jokes, etcetera. But by and large,
I think that it's almost tricky to rate on its
treatment of women because we spend most of this movie
be with men. However, I don't necessarily think that that

(01:12:03):
is a bad thing. I think that that works and
still accomplishes quite a bit where it's mostly we are
seeing Viola as Sebastian among other men, and it's kind
of an examination with varying degrees of success as we've discussed,
of looking at masculinity and how do men interact and

(01:12:26):
you know, like what are the shades of gray there?
And again there were some hits and there are some misses,
but ultimately it does well, certainly better than most teen
movies of this era. It's a very effective adaptation where
the the you know, original play it does not look
upon women that kindly, where that was somehow you know,

(01:12:47):
made into a movie that makes women part of the
narrative and very capable. And I do wish that there
were other women in this movie included in a more
meaningful way. Um. I think it would have been really
awesome to have give Viola someone to talk to more
often so that she could be reflecting on this experience

(01:13:09):
in real time. I think that there could have been
a lot of cool things to get out of that.
But for the most part, the fact that we spend
most of this movie with men, unlike most movies where
we're with men almost all of the time, is done
with a lot of intent, and four two thousand and
six is handled generally pretty thoughtfully. However, I wish we

(01:13:30):
were with women for more of this movie, and and
also the mom character in general kind of missed for me.
There's a lot of cartooning characters in this but I
just like because the whole time I was thinking of
the other hyper traditionally feminine mother character in a soccer movie. Um,

(01:13:52):
I just think that that was a big missed opportunity.
You know, maybe if we there was a portion of
this movie that had to do with why the fund
isn't five Fola at school? That could be a conversation
between Viola and her mother right like there there There
are definitely, as with most movies, this movie is like
littered with missed opportunities, but the ones that capitalizes on
generally I think do pretty well. So three and a

(01:14:14):
half nippies from me and to give two of them
to Amanda Bynes come back, we need you. I'm going
to give I guess I'll give. I have to give
one a Channing Tatum because you know you wouldn't think
that he's so funny and um, and then I will
give my final half nipple to um My queer King Malvolio. Sure,

(01:14:37):
of course, do spiders have nipples? As a nipple expert
over here, UM, I would say, now if each of
a long ass nipple, spiders are just basically cats who
walk on their nipples. I'm sorry, that was the worst
thing I've ever said. Sammy, oh hi, I would say,

(01:14:59):
I think even though it is my favorite movie all time,
and I did say that it was flowless, I think
that I'll give it probably three point five nips. The
thing with gender swap movies is that it really does
result in focusing on leaning into gender norms, which you
know those aren't my bag, baby, So I mean, but
you have to do it for the story whatever. But yeah,

(01:15:22):
three and a half. I think one to Unice Sure,
one to Amanda Bindes is mugging MH. One to Amanda
Bindes is inconsistent accent boy accent southern sometimes southern, and
then something like with all of her like money. It's
like I love it. Like if you guys ever want

(01:15:43):
to know what I'm like in my daily life, I
am Viola as Sebastian without that was such an probable
the scene where the one like debutante lady is like
Viola true, like you have a secret, and then she
just to like that all the time because of that
scene when yeah, how many nipples are think about three

(01:16:06):
and a half? You got a half or a half
to dinklage. All right, Yeah for not being well, Sammy,
thank you so much for being here with us. Thank
you for inviting me. It's time. Where can people find
you online? Is there anything you'd like to plug? Um?
Follow me on Instagram? At it your sam underscores it

(01:16:29):
between those words, so I t underscore? Why oh you
are underscore? S A M Twitter Sammy Junio s A
M E j U and I oh if your local
to Los Angeles are coming to visit, uh see a
historical roast or fictional roast show at Dynasty, Typewriter or
the comedy Store. Jamie and Caitlin, we're both on and
killed it. Oh, so good. It's so good to see them. Also,

(01:16:52):
I do have a podcast unreleased, but it will come
out called non Binary Code, which is me going through
the non binary journey and inviting guests to talk about
their experience, which in what I call a living blurry nice.
Thanks love it. So be on the lookout for non
Binary Code and you can follow us at bechtel Cast

(01:17:15):
on social media. You can go to our website bectel
cast dot com and there you can find episodes. You
can find our merch store. We've got all kinds of
apparel and mugs. Speaking of you can drink out of
a Cat Facts with Caitlin mug or whatever. Oh speaking
of which, Alfred Molina could have played Malfolio. Malfolio with

(01:17:42):
this spider. I mean he's a chameleon. He can play anything.
That's true. Yeah, yeah, Get your merch um rate and
review us on iTunes. That will help us a lot,
especially if you give us a five NIP rating and
join our Patreon ak Matreon. We do to bonus episodes
every single month, can you believe it? And it's only

(01:18:03):
five dollars a month. Oh my god. So I check
that out of paton dot com, slash Patreon dot com,
slash Beckadle casts excellent, So and thank you, we love you,
and we're all. The Man's the Man. Yeah, he's the Man.
By