Shrek the Third

In the most Shrekian episode yet, Caitlin and Jamie examine Shrek the Third!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
in best start changing it with the Beck del Cast.
Welcome to the Wow Wow Happy New Year, Caitlin, Happy

(00:23):
New Year to you, Jamie. We are in good sorts.
As you can tell, We're in good we're in good starts,
we're in high spirits, and we're covering Shrek three. I
feel like we like to bring in the new year,
you know, just kind of like on a good on
a good vibe. We want to give people something that

(00:44):
they're like familiar with, something that makes them smile, but
also something that makes them think exactly. We want to
set a precedent, and what better way to set a
precedent for than with Shrek the Third. Yeah, this is
a very cerebral podcast, and you can tell because of

(01:06):
our s tier movie selection. I was being driven home
by a friend last night because I don't have a
driver's license, and I was thank you so much. I
was mortified at how many times in the space of
one conversation I said, well, that would require reading a
book and I'm just not going to do that. Um,

(01:27):
we famously don't read books, so we don't read books.
But this is ultimately an intellectual endeavor and we're trying
to change hearts and minds. Um, Happy New Year, h
n y as it were? Oh my gosh, yeah, Um ditto,
right back at you. Cute. Okay, we're using phrases this year.

(01:50):
I don't know what I'm trying to say. Welcome to
the Betel Cast. My name is Jamie Loft Tech, my
name is Caitlin Darante, and this is our show where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist end, using the
Becktel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate
a much larger conversation about representation and such. Of Justin
Timberlake in animation, God, I feel like this was the

(02:14):
justin Timberlake stunt casting era, and he really was giving
it a hard in this movie. He is stinky, stinky, stinky.
And that's an example of a conversation that would not
pass the Becktel test. Can I tell you what it is?
Please do. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Alice and Bechtels, sometimes called the becktel Wallace test. Originally,

(02:37):
it was created as a one off, jokey kind of
metric in her iconic comic Wow Okay, her iconic comics
comic Maybe Tania I Frankenstein I Robot, And now the
juices are kind of flowing right okay, okay, am I awake.

(03:02):
It started as a bit uh in in her iconic
comic Dikes to Watch out for highly recommended, but it's
since become a kind of commonly accepted metric. Uh. There's
a lot of different versions of it. The one we
use requires that there are two characters with names of
a marginalized gender that speak to each other about something
other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue,

(03:23):
ideally an impactful few lines of dialogue. This movie, I
was frustrated with how they did it, but they did.
They did do it. It was mostly women negging each
other at a baby shower, but they did technically do it,
and then each other in a dark corridor, which is

(03:44):
actually where I would feel more at home. Is good.
I'm no stranger to getting negged in a dark corridor.
You do stand up long enough that will happen? Do
you actually? Kind of like on a constant basis, and
it maybe happened to me yesterday. Oh no, last night
I failed to win a dollar gift card to Red Robin.

(04:11):
Oh my gosh, I had a stand up comedy show.
I'm so sorry. You have what it took? You know
who won? Who? The pianist? None of the stand ups one?
What not fair? Yeah, the crowd really liked the pianist
and well, um, not to completely blow up your spot, Jamie,
but yes, someone was gifted a little something from a

(04:34):
certain other someone. Are you shouting out your Christmas gift
to me? Yeah? Because plugging your gif. I'm plugging the
Olive Garden gift card that I bestowed upon you. It's
true for xmus it's true and we and I'm going
to use it on you with you. I cannot wait.

(04:55):
Oh my god, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. Thing, I'm crying.
I'm ready to discuss Shrek the third, Shrek rate Okay,
what's your history? Sorry, Shrek the third, Shrek the third,
get it right? And that was fine? It was funked
up with me. I'm sorry. I mean Shrek the third,
What can I say? I mean they if you if

(05:16):
this is the first episode. You're listening two of this show.
That's very funny. I guess you know. I would say
I am a Shrek head. I think I would have
seen this in theaters. I think this would have been
I didn't start seeing the Shrek movies in theaters until
it was like as a joke. If I remember correctly,

(05:36):
I would have seen the first two on like home
video under dress with some cousins, I think, And then
you know, this one I would have maybe seen in theaters.
The fourth one I strongly remember seeing in theaters because
I believe that I let my high school boyfriend finger
me at the fourth one. Um, but that was in

(05:57):
two thousand and ten and I was not quite an adult.
I was still a child getting fingered at the movies.
But uh, well it was by another child, so it's okay,
Am I awake? UM, I would have seen this in theaters.
I will say that this is my least favorite Shrek.

(06:17):
I am a I feel intimately linked with this franchise
for many years now. UM, I've given my body too.
It's also cannon to the show we are. The Bechtel
cast is synonymous with Shrek. It's there's no way around it.
It's true. The first time I went viral and my
whole life was Shrek related, like it's all connected. I

(06:39):
went to Actually I was thinking about this because I
went back and looked at some of my notes because
at the end of I was really depressed. And you
will understand why I did this when I tell you
I was very depressed. I went to a ten hour
long zoom in conference on Shrek and there were a

(07:01):
lot of different speakers. There was a lot there was
actually kind of like a lot of good ship, not
to you know, send you into a panic, but I
learned a lot. And Shrek three not a heavily discussed
shruck because I feel like it wasn't well reviewed and
it isn't very beloved in spite of almost making a
billion dollars but eight d and thirteen million at the

(07:23):
box office kind of absurd. But there was talk of, like,
you know, a lot of feminist discussion about Fiona and
Shrek three does come up quite a bit because of
how she is, um she is mommy in this one.
She's mommy fied, she's mommy pilled, and yeah, it's just

(07:43):
like it's honestly in my least favorite Trek I feel
like all the characters are underused, and I feel like,
at this point in I'll say the franchise, we're like
running out of things for Shrek to be bad at.
And yeah, this one feels a little, a little forced. Oh,

(08:04):
I totally agree. All of the conflict in this movie
is very contrived and it's so bizarre to me, like
how far this movie, like the gymnastics it has to
do to make it about fathers and sons when it
just like did not have to be about fathers and sons.
They make a whole new character so that the movie
can be about fathers and sons. When at the beginning

(08:25):
Fiona loses her father, there's the conflict. There's the thing,
why are we creating and why are we making some
like justin Timberlake character with Banks to have this plot
rewriting the Arthur legend. It's like, I'm sorry, he becomes king,

(08:46):
not because Shrek is like you should be king. He
famously pulls a sword out of a stone. No sword,
no stone, but pro of this movie, Donkey has a
son named Bananas, which and I liked that ties the
minions into I did like, yes, exactly, Egg you man,

(09:09):
we really are close friends. So I was like, wow,
there is a shipwreck. So I was like, okay, Titanic
is here and I was like hey, donkey Son's name
bananas and like okay, and so there, so the minions
are here. Um, but ultimately, yeah, this is this is
a challenging entry. But you know, I think that it's
it would be silly to cover Shrek four with without

(09:32):
kind of muscling through Shrek three. That's true. Went your
history with this movie? I had only seen it once before,
and I could not tell you when it was sometime
between two thousand seven when this movie came out, and
I would guess like I probably saw it around when
it came out, maybe like or it could have been

(09:54):
like two thousand fifteen. I don't know. Time is a
very much a flat circle. Did you like it when
you Did you like it when you saw it? I
don't think so because I never returned to it after that.
But you know what I will return to is Puss
in Boots the Last Wish, which I saw. It is
so good. It's like my third favorite movie. Yeah, I

(10:18):
know that people are really loving Yeah, we I guess, um,
I don't know why I'm I feel constantly defensive for
no reason. Um it has something to do with my childhood.
But um, we were supposed to see Puss and Boots
together on Christmas Day and I both recently had COVID.
So if you hate this episode, it's because we literally

(10:40):
have brain damage, we post COVID brain fog. And yes,
that's gonna be my excuse for everything moving forward in life.
And the scary part is you may not even be wrong.
I know, and that's been on my mind constantly. Anyways,
Shrek three, sorry s also, my aunt died, but it's

(11:06):
my condolences. The beginning of Shrek three reminded me because
I'm the protagonist of the world. The beginning of Shrek
three reminded me of my birthday party at medieval times.
I had the same exact thought. Yes, I was thinking
about Red Knight vibes. Yeah, folks were friends. Uh, I

(11:29):
was thinking about the Red Knight. But I was like, wow,
Prince Charming can't hold a candle to the Red Knight.
I do like that, Like I do. I think it's
like a trope, but a trope that I generally like.
An aggrieved actor becoming a villain kind of never gets old.
For me. I enjoy it, but I just don't like
Charming as a character Paddington too much. Hello Hello, kind

(11:53):
of the peak of that trope. Yeah, nothing's done it
better than Paddington too. I didn't I should have thought
of Paddington too, but that is I guess that's technically
your department at the office. Thank you, the Bechtel cast
office and the the director of the Paddington to department
I thought of. I thought of the villain origin stories.

(12:14):
At the opening scene where Prince Charming is working in
a medieval times z restaurant, it's clear that they're pulling
from that, and you know, he's like, I'm too good
for this ship. I don't you don't appreciate me. Blah
blah blah. Things that reminded me of Donald Trump at
the White House Correspondence dinner, being made fun of and
then deciding to ruin the world. Reminded me of that.

(12:36):
Not that I mean not I and I don't like
to make a Trump joke, because good lord, but it
also kind of reminded me of the Joker. And it
definitely reminded me of that episode of SpongeBob SquarePants. I
watched it just the other day where SpongeBob or the
Krusty Krab is putting on a talent show. Have you

(12:57):
seen this one? I'm so sorry to say this, but
I've never seen a single episode of SpongeBob SquarePants. I
I know it took a second to hit me, but
like not even one, really sorry, like not even bubbles
or jelly fishing or I don't the one where they
play the halftime show at the football game. No, not

(13:19):
even the Krusty Crab training video. This this but I
do remember. This is a lot I know that. Okay, okay, yes,
no go. There's an episode where you, I frea something
else reminded you of an episode of SpongeBob square Pants,
and I just think remember you saying something like, it's

(13:40):
like when maybe squid Word eats a crabby patty and
then he eats a hundred crabby patties. Yes, that's a
classic episode. I don't know what it means, but it is.
I need to rewatch that. I think that there's maybe
a bit of fat phobia in that episode. But the
the line is squid Word can't stop eating crabby patties,
compulsively eating the crappy patties and SpongeBob's on the other

(14:03):
side of the door. He's like, you have to stop
eating the crabby patties, and Squidbver says, what am I
going to do? Blow up? And then SpongeBob says, no,
it'll go straight to your thighs, and then they have
indep gun straight to his eyes and then he says,
and then you'll blow up, And then squid Red bloss
up the best shover and that's comedy. That was not
the episode I was thinking of. SpongeBob heads will know

(14:24):
this one. It's a classic. I made someone watch it
with me after I had sex with them, which was
very powerful of me to do. Yeah, yeah, it was,
but the sex was reminded me. It was not reminded
me of that, but it was just on my mind.
It's an episode where the Krusty Crab is putting on
a talent show and squid Word he wants to be

(14:45):
a respected artist. That's kind of a big part of
his character, and so he's like, I'm gonna do a
huge dance routine and everyone hates it. They think he's terrible,
and then SpongeBob comes up and mops a little bit
and people start cheering. But it reminded me of that
because squid Word regularly feels so artistically rejected that he

(15:06):
seems like he may in fact kill someone. And he
runs out on stage on this one and he says,
you don't even no talent, and then the audience starts
yelling back at him, no talent, no tell do you
get it? I get it. It's very names, but I understand.

(15:28):
The person I had s swith also wasn't cracking up
at that, and I thought that was interesting, and then
I kicked him out of my house. Um, well should
we be? I truly feel like I've entered a new
area of my brain today. I am now just constantly

(15:48):
in an altered state of reality. Well we don't use
what is it like, we don't use our brains, But
today that changes. Yeah, I am now able to access
the other of my brain. That was a Scarlett Johanson
movie once. Yeah, Lucy, she's I think when Yeah, alright,

(16:11):
chruck three, let's do it. Here we go. Actually, let's
take a quick break and then we will come back
for the recap and we are back. Okay. We open
on Gingi Pinocchio and then also it's Pinocchio War's time,

(16:34):
and I was triggered when I saw Pinocchio. I was like,
he had another Pinocchio. Well, okay, so this is not
a spoiler or anything, but in Puss and Boots the
Last Wish, Pinocchio makes a little cameo. So there are
three Pinocchio movies in well, there's there's four, because there's
like the Crummy, there's a there's a fourth one. Maggie

(16:57):
Maykors sent it to me, and it's it's not like
the animation you find at the gas station, but it
looks like the animation you find at the gas station.
Not a theatrically released Pinocchio, but a really cheap so
it's like the Legend of Titanic version of Pinocchio. Yeah,
except it came out last year, which is kind of wild.

(17:19):
I'm clear who it's for, no idea. Um, okay, So
we've got Gingi, Pinocchio, the Big Bed Wolf, and the
Three Little Pigs. They are watching Prince Charming do Dinner
theater because he's a loser now and his life is
in shambles, and he is bitter because he thinks that
he's the rightful King of Far Far away. But guess
who is king or at least filling in for king

(17:42):
while the real king is sick. It's Shrek. Oh, and
I bet he's going to be a little awkward, random,
and uh, not quite at home being the king. Yeah,
you would be correct. Yeah, So he and Fiona are
sort of like stepping in as king and queen for
the time being. Donkey and Puss and Boots are obviously around,

(18:06):
they are still the sidekicks. And like you said, Shrek
is bad at being king. And he's like, Fiona, we
are leaving and going back to the swamp, and she's like, yeah,
and maybe when we're there we could start a family.
And Shrek is not thrilled by this idea because of trumps. Yes.

(18:28):
And then the king is on his deathbed and he's like, Shrek,
you're next in line to be king, and Shrek is
like an ogre king. That sounds like a bad idea,
and the king is like, well there is one other option,
cousin Arthur. Okay, bye bye, and then he dies. That
scene is so frustrating to me because Fiona is standing

(18:53):
right there. We spend so much of Shrek three acting
like Shrek to literally never happy because Shrek two is
a lot of like Fiona coming into her own as
a person and like figuring out her role in this.
Also it's like, this is a very pro monarchy. If
we can't deal with it today, we can't deal with
it today. I understand it's very pro monarchy and more

(19:16):
pro monarchy as as it goes on. And it's like,
I'm just I'm assuming that they're colonial. You know, they
tried to colonize Shrek Swamp. Hello the plot of Shrek one,
we know what, we love it. I don't think that
we had the cultural know how at the time to
say that in our first episode about Trek, but I
do think that there are like actively truly serious brain

(19:39):
returning to the brain. I no, um, they're a colonial force.
It's a monarchy. But if we're going with girl Boss
logic of like girl is king is good whatever, Fiona
is right fucking there. We've spent so much of Shrek
two of her coming into her own and then the
third movie acts like nothing happened. Nothing happened, because I

(20:03):
did think that, Like I was like, I wonder if
her father will even suggest that she could be you know,
in power as a joke. I wonder if she will
say what about me as a joke, But it doesn't
even it doesn't even come up. It's we have a
new character, we hired justin Timberlake to do it, and
why and and why? But yeah, that's that's what happens.

(20:26):
And then he dies. Oh the king dies, Yes, as
a frog. He's a frog. He's in his frog state.
Sees Trek two for why that is we've got brain fog.
The king has brain frog and then he doesn't because
he dies and then he's brain his brain is dead. Okay. Meanwhile, meanwhile,

(20:56):
Charming goes into a tavern where a bunch of Fairy
Hill villains are hanging out, and I do not appreciate
the implication that only villains would hang out at a pub,
or like that a pub or tavern would be full
of only villains and no one else as a frequenter
of pubs dark corridors exactly. Yet another way that this

(21:21):
movie kind of like feels like it's contradicting prior entries
to the franchise is that like Charming. Okay, well, let's
let's say what Charming is doing. He's trying to like
galvanize the villains. Yeah, he's like, hey hook, Hey evil
Queen from snow White, Hey rumpel Stiltskin, join me in

(21:42):
this cause of kind of reclaiming our own narratives, and
it's our turn to get happily ever after, which I
feel like it's not anywhere close to like one for one,
what's happening in Shrek one, but the theme is similar
of like these like classically villainized characters are trying to

(22:04):
like prove that there's more to them than how they've
been classically characterized. That is literally Shrek's arc all the
time in every fucking movie, but this time it's bad,
and you're like, well, what I would say that this movie,
Shrek the Third is not particularly shreky in And I

(22:27):
can't believe it took us over twenty minutes to say
Shrek I in in this episode about a Shrek movie
merch plug, We've got Shreky and March. I'm looking at
my Shrek pillow, my shreky and pillow. I have my
shreky and sweatshirt not on because it's in the wash
because I can't stop wearing it. And that's heap off

(22:47):
dot com slash the Bechtel cast. Yes, um, but this
is the least Shreky and entry. It's like this, It's
like Shrek three doesn't even know what happens in Shreks
one and two, which is wild because they fucking lived it.
It's absurd. Um Okay. So, so Charming is is rallying
the fairy tale villains to, you know, be like, hey,

(23:08):
it's it's our turn to be the heroes or whatever.
So then when we cut back to Shrek, he is
about to go on a voyage to find cousin Arthur.
But before he leaves, Fiona is like, Shrek, I'm gregnant.
But also I was, I was considering experimenting with shreknant

(23:29):
or shregnant. I like, shregnant. Well, you coined the term
shreg in our Shrek two episode. I don't know if
you remember this, Jamie. No, I just have so many
good ideas that I just kind of forget about someone though.
I that was so good of me to do. I'm

(23:49):
so glad I did that, So proud of you. So,
so Fiona is like I'm shregnant and is like yeah,
but he's very worried about being a bad dad because
ogres are not known for being nurturing. Oh my god,

(24:11):
such a forced plot point. I'm like, enough with the
ogre lore. Oh my goodness, it's a lot. I also wait,
quick question, So the timing of like when they're in
Far Far Away, do you think that they fucked raw

(24:36):
the day her father died? I'll ask it. Do you
think they fucked raw the day her father died? Or
do you think it was before? Good question. It seems
as though Shrek leaves on this journey very shortly thereafter,
but then that introduces like, well, we don't know about
ogre gestation. Well, yes, true, so maybe they fucked raw

(24:58):
and then two days it or she knows she's shregnant,
she's shregnant. I would have actually, because this movie likes,
you know, it's very shreky in to show something that
happens in the real world, but like covereding goo and stinky.
I would have liked to see a stinky pregnancy test. Oh.
I would have liked to see it, say shregnant on

(25:21):
the clear blue or the clear green, more like clear
green test. Okay, okay, now we're talking. We're writing a
movie right now there, So I want the clear green
to show two gooey lines and it says. She says,
oh no, I'm shregnant. Um and then to you this
my piece smells horrible or whatever. Yeah, but we don't

(25:45):
get that. We just get the scene where Fiona is like,
I'm shregnant, and then Shrek is reacting with apprehension. He
has a nightmare about it, where hundreds of little shred
eggs are like running around. He's scrambling to take care
of them and to keep them safe, his scrambled shreggs.

(26:07):
They're uh, like I did like when that whole that
whole nightmare sequence is annoying because you're just like, Okay,
this is well, I don't know, we'll we'll talk about
it in the discussion, because I do think that like
exploring the theme of like anxiety around being a parent,
very valid theme to explore. I think this movie just

(26:27):
does it in a kind of like bizarre and like lazy,
half asked way, like a trophy gendered way. Yeah, exactly,
Like it's we're not saying that, Like I mean, if
I found out I was shregnant, I would be having
dreams about Donkey with my face on. Yeah, I would
just be beside myself. But yeah, I don't know it

(26:49):
just it's they're like worthwhile themes being explored in the laziest,
most boring way possible in this movie. Yes, indeed, So, Shrek,
Donkey and puts in Boots arrive at their destination, which
turns out to be a high school, and cousin Arthur
turns out to be a teenager voiced by Justin Timberlake,

(27:12):
who everyone thinks is a huge loser. Terrible twist. Yeah,
I also think Justin Timberlake is a huge loser. Same.
Do you think that David Fincher saw Shrek the Third
and was like, we gotta put him in the social network? Yes?
Or now he's got the chops you can do. I
think I think he saw Black Snake Moan and was like,

(27:33):
I gotta put him in the social network. I don't
know if that movie came out before the Social Network,
but I haven't even seen Black Snake Moan. Is that
that's Samuel L. Jackson and Christina Ricci right? Yeah? And
I think, if I'm remembering correctly, Justin Timberlake is also
in it, or maybe he is. I'm looking at his
filmography right now. I regret to inform you. Or maybe

(27:53):
David Fincher saw Southland Tales and was like, I gotta
put justin Timberlake in the social network. I feel like
David Fincher did see Southland Tales. That movie sorry for
anyone who likes it, but I think is the And
this is not an unpopular opinion, but that movie, in
my humble opinion, is a turd. Whoa Anyway, I haven't

(28:15):
seen it, but I just I looked at the poster.
I'm like, yeah, I think David Fincher seen it, but
I don't know. I don't really know what he's like.
I'll have to mean text him. He does seem mean,
but not like funny, mean like James Cameron just mean yeah,
like do seventy takes until you're crying? Mean yeah, Like

(28:36):
I like like a like a kuber kind of mean.
Not James Cameron being like if anyone wants my attention
on set, they have to sound the auga. That's like,
did you see that? No, Oh my god, that's I'm
I'm not making that up. That is something that he said.
He's just like do he's the He's the worst, He's bad,

(29:00):
and like we could get into that because there's I mean,
we will when we cover another Titanic episode this year. Actually,
I think we really should because there's been a discourse
around Avatar tooth that I feel like it's very much
worth discussing, even though we just talked about Avatar for
a very long time with Ali Naddy. But it's just like, okay,
compartmentalizing my feelings just to share this. The film crew

(29:24):
on Avatar Way of Water has to play an a
wuga sound effect of a submarine diving alarm to get
James Cameron's attention on set. Cameron quote, I don't even
respond unless they do the auga unquote embarrassing. That's funny,
mean embarrassing. Yeah, moving on anyway. So Justin is in

(29:47):
the movie is the point, and we don't love Shrek
is like, guess what, Arthur your first in line for
the throne, And so Arthur leaves with Shrek, excited by
the idea of being king. But when Arthur realizes how
much responsibility it requires, he freaks out and tries to
turn the ship around because he and Shrek start fighting.

(30:10):
The ship crashes on an island, where Merlin famously a
wizard voiced by which I'm always delighted to see Eric
Aile but I'm like, oh my god, what is happening there?
Just the doing back bench to tell me more things

(30:31):
about masculine responsibility, like shut okay. So Merlin is like Shrek,
I'm not going to help you until you stop being
so angry, and then he has all of the characters
do some soul searching, and Shrek is still clearly anxious
about being a father. We learned that Arthur was abandoned

(30:55):
by his father, and Shrek and Arthur have a heart
to heart and they are bonding almost as if they
are father and son. And but Shrek does say something
interesting that I think. I was trying to figure out
if there's any way that Shrek the Musical, which is

(31:15):
my favorite Shrek Shrekian shreky in property, because I believe
that Shrek the Musical debuts in oh eight, the year
after this. But I was curious if like this was
being developed alongside Shrek three, or if like Shrek three
wasn't able to be like to get into Shrek the

(31:36):
Musical because they were kind of close together and it
takes so long to develop a musical. But Shrek does
say that his father tried to eat him, yes, when
he was a little Shrek a Shrek he just hatch
out of his Shrek and and his father says, I'm

(31:56):
gonna eat you. That's not good, but I leave. In
the musical, the way that Shrek's childhood Shrek's childhood trauma
is actually like a huge plot point and Shrek the Musical,
and it's why it's the best Shrek. They are examining
Shrek's sensitive side with farts, of course. But what happens
in Shrek the Musical is that Shrek's parents kick Shrek

(32:21):
out of their house when he's seven and say, go
make something of yourself, and you look like shit, and
like that's kind of They're like, it's going to be
hard to be an ogre in the world, which is
why we're kicking you out of our house. Question mark.
But so he was like badly parented in a different
way in the musical. Are Shrek's parents also ogres or

(32:44):
was there like an adoption thing? Okay, So that's why
it's confusing that they kick him out there like the
world is hostile and so are we, Like I don't understand,
but in the musical it's very effective and I feel like, again,
just another way that Shrek is lazy. He's like, um
my dad tried to eat me. That won't be coming
up again. Yeah. The point is, uh, Shrek is now

(33:08):
justin Timberlake's daddy um back in far far away. And
to be clear, like, and I don't want to speak
for you, Jamie, but I don't have a problem with
the idea of a story being about a father son relationship.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. And I think there
should be more stories that at least feature a positive

(33:32):
and like meaningful story about a father son relationship, because
so many of the ones that we get on screen
are actually very toxic relationships, but the movie doesn't present
them that way. It's just like, yeah, this is how
fatherhood is or whatever. I am inclined to agree with that.
I just feel like it's like not in first position

(33:53):
for me. I feel like they've had no people that
a lot of shots to get it right, and if
they haven't at this point point, I'm like, well, that's
none of my business, right, But but I also I
do agree. I think that there are there are versions
of this story that have been historically ignored, but unfortunately
this movie is not doing anything. And when we're coming

(34:15):
down on like father son movies, which are almost all
of them. Yeah, I'm just coming down at the sheer
volume of them, and they're like, it's I feel like
it's just like a classically I'm more saying like, and
there's not a lot else. It's very rare to see
any other parent child relationship of any sort other than

(34:37):
fathers and sons because of who's been historically who's been
historically put first. So I actually am very sick of
fathers and Sons movies. But if the movie is really good,
then fine, good for that. But it just this movie.
Yeah right, yes, So back in Far far Away, Charming

(34:59):
shows up with his army of villains. They storm the castle.
He claims the throne as his own, and he plans
to basically kill Shrek and Arthur upon their return. Fiona,
her mom, and her friends such as snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella,
and Rapunzel, try to escape, but Rapunzel betrays Fiona because

(35:23):
she turns out to be Charming's his girlfriend and something
that they also do basically nothing with. It's yeah, and
so Charming locks Fiona and the others in the dungeon. Meanwhile,
Merlin uses his magic to transport Shrek, Arthur, Donkey, and
Puss in boots back too far far away. But also

(35:46):
during this teleportation Donkey and Puss his bodies are accidentally switched.
And that's comedy and does that lead anywhere? Of course
not does about boring jokes? Ye? Yes, So then Shrek
goes to stop Charming and to save Fiona, but Charming

(36:09):
captures Shrek and his friends, and this is when Arthur
finds out that he isn't really next in line to
be king, that Shrek is, and that Shrek just didn't
want to do it. And Shrek calls Arthur a fool
and a loser and tells him to leave, and he's
really mean. So Arthur does just that, he leaves, and

(36:31):
it's just and at this point you're really like struggling
to care. Yeah, I'm like, what's happening? No, justin Timberlake
has exited the movie, darn uh. So then Charming puts
on this show. It's similar to the dinner theater show
we saw him doing at the beginning of the movie

(36:52):
where he vanquishes an ogre, because Charming's plan is to
kill Shrek onstage during the show, which is both lazy
and iconic. I don't hate it, and it plays out,
I couldn't decide if I but then I, but then

(37:13):
I did hate it. As the scene was happening, I'm like,
this is so ridiculous. Okay, all right, he's gonna kill
him on stage. Yes. Meanwhile, Fiona and the others break
out of the dungeon and storm the castle with the
help of Donkey Post Pinocchio, GINGI the whole gang. Along
the way, they bump into Arthur and Post some donkey

(37:34):
tell Arthur that Shrek said all of those mean things
to protect him so that Charming wouldn't kill Arthur. Cut
to the play. Charming is about to kill Shrek, but
Fiona and the other ladies bust into save the day.
But oh no, I mean there is the classic another

(37:55):
I think something very shreky in is um a moment
of woman empowerment that goes nowhere correct a classic shreky
and thing to do. It's like and now it's it's
the woman is kicking. And now back to your regularly
scheduled Shrek doing stand up, Like, what the funk was

(38:17):
that he's doing a tight five? He's he's he's doing
a roast of Charming. He's in the roast battle, yeah,
and he won. He won, of course gets safe. Um,
so Fiona and the other princesses show up to save
the day, but it doesn't go anywhere, and Charming in
the villains get the upper hand again, but then Arthur

(38:39):
shows back up and gives a speech about how they
don't have to be villains. They can be whoever they
want to be, because even though everyone might think they're
a monster, it's about who you think you are. And
you're like, oh yeah, sort of like exactly what happens
in Shrek one, but makes less sense, and it's from

(38:59):
Justin timber Like, I'm so not interested in Justin Timberlake's
journey towards becoming a diplomat like. But his speech inspires
the villains to throw down their weapons, but Charming isn't
having it, and he tries to kill Shrek. But then
Charming gets crushed by a tower and presumably killed, And

(39:24):
then Arthur takes the crown and accept his role as king.
I can't believe it. Then Merlin switches Donkey and puts
back in their rightful bodies, and then we cut back
to the swamp where Fiona has three little shreds and
they've hatched, They've hatched out of their out of their
Shrek eggs, and Shrek is good daddy and Fiona is

(39:49):
a good mummy and and they have a nice ogre
family the end. Yea, I love that. Yeah, so let's
take a quick break and come back to discuss and

(40:10):
we're back. Yeah, yeah, what shall we talk about first? Well,
I feel like we actually have um touched on quite
a bit of stuff already, I think, I mean, but
let's I guess close the loop on the every movie
is about fathers and sons thing I do stand by
way I said, And I feel like this movie is
kind of a classic example of why that can be

(40:32):
so frustrating, because it's like, I just feel like there's
so many more interesting parent child dynamics in this movie
that to some extent it is supposed to be about
parental anxiety, and like, I just think it's really, um,
it was a huge missed opportunity. And and you know,

(40:55):
I guess missing an opportunity is very shreky in in
a way, UM true to say something impactful, UM, but
introducing a new character instead of like focusing on the
characters we have just felt like a huge mistake because
it's like, not that I want Direct the Third to
be about grieving a parent, but it's I just like

(41:18):
I truly was baffled, and I feel like it really
spoke to how poorly Fiona has been characterized historically and
really reminded me about how it took five white guys
to write this story that we are given like a
really strong thread that should be playing into the whole movie.

(41:40):
At the very beginning, Fiona's father dies. Is it funny
when he dies? Yes, I kind of like the frog bit,
Oh he's not dead yet. It went on for so long.
I was so over it after the first time, I
was over it because I was feeling for Fiona. But
I do think that the few people I've told I
was watching Shrek the Third, that scene is the only

(42:01):
thing anyone remembers there, Like, is that the one where
the frog dies and it takes a long time like shocking?
But yes, yes, But yeah, I just like that's like
a really strong thread and it's not called back to
at all like Fiona. I feel like it's it's so
it ties into like a huge issue with Fiona in
this or just like a very heavily gendered trope in

(42:23):
this where it's like it's never considered that Fiona might
have anxieties about becoming a parent, Like that's such so
part and parcel too, like lazy motherhood narratives that are
generally written by not mothers, where it's like, oh, well, yes,
it is her feminine duty not only to want to
get pregnant but not have a single worry in the

(42:44):
world about the little shregs um like nothing nothing, nothing, nothing,
And the fact that she has just lost her parents
would be another sort of way into exploring that anxiety
of like what was her elthood? Like does she have
any anxieties about like her children being a part of

(43:05):
this like royal fucking mess? Does she have anxieties about
shreks ability to parent? Is there? Like there's just like
so like a ten year old could come up with
a bunch of different ways for Fiona to be more
active within this story, and it's just like completely ignored

(43:25):
so aggressively that they feel they need to introduce a
character that no one cares about in order to like
get Shrek to the same place, but like in a
worst less effective way, like she's right there. I feel
like that's every shruck discussion. Like Fiona is right there,
she has the narrative thrust. Why can't she fucking like

(43:49):
have us an actual story and not just like and
to the point where, like when she comes out and
I forgot that there was like the princess fight scene,
and I guess, like theoretically, like that's better than nothing,
but I was actually really annoyed by it because it
was just like, Oh, cool, You're going to do the
one thing Fiona is ever allowed to do, which is

(44:11):
one fight scene per movie. But it's like, even that's
fucking lazy at this point because it's not really leading
anywhere and she still doesn't get to do anything, Like
I just for sure. Yeah, just touching a little bit
more on the like parenthood through line of the movie,

(44:32):
reiterating how easy of a choice it is to put
the woman in the role of being so hyper enthusiastic
about becoming apparent to the point where she has seemingly
no anxieties, no hesitations, nothing like that, because I think
it's like leaning into this trope of like women are

(44:55):
quote unquote baby crazy, whereas men are so often presented
in media as being extremely reluctant about becoming a father
because they think it's gonna like, I don't know, ruin
his life or something, as if to say in hetero couples,

(45:17):
women don't experience like doubt and apprehension about becoming a parent,
and that men don't experience enthusiasm when we know that
the full range of emotion is available to people of
all genders as it relates to parenthood and everything in
the world. Right like it it's not like we're even saying,

(45:37):
you know, like this is not like a woman never
has never felt this way about parenting, and a man
has never felt this way about parenting. Obviously, Like tropes
don't come from nowhere. We're not saying that no one's
ever reacted this way to a Gregnancy or even a shregnancy,
but it is so so done to fun and death

(46:00):
and I and I think it's like this is something
that always kind of bugs me about the Trek movies.
It's like they're so aggressively marketed as like an alternative
to like the tropes that you're used to, but it's
like very much not like lean yeah, in terms of
its values. I feel like the first one is like

(46:21):
the closest to actually subverting something and like, you know,
like with beauty is more than how you appear, and
like all that stuff like that felt genuinely subversive for
a kid's movie, But by the time they get to
the third one, it's like it's just like no one's
even trying. It bums me out. And it's because I

(46:43):
do think that Fiona is an awesome character. She's awesome,
and like I felt like she was disrespected in the
second one because they literally try to like roofy her,
and then in the third one it's even worse. They
Like I was glad that at least we I don't know.
There's like large chunks of this movie where she's completely

(47:05):
absent because shreks going off on a quest with Donkey
and Puss in boots, and we only cut back to
her to see her baby shower, like, which again is
just so lazy and gendered. It's so and it also
is my impression of that scene. I've been to. I've
been a many many baby showers. I love being an auntie.

(47:29):
It very much read to me as like five men
trying to imagine what a baby shower would be like,
and it's like, oh, it's just women insulting each other
and giving each other gifts, and like it's so it's
so lazy that I didn't play any games. No one
had a like all the princesses, the way they're characterized,

(47:50):
they're basically indistinguishable from each other because they're all character
I think the subversion that they're making is like they're
actually vapid, evil bitches. Isn't that funny? And you're like, no,
why are Fiona's friends mean? Like I hate it? And
also shouldn't we cut back to a scene where like

(48:12):
Fiona is making choices about the kingdom like she is
right now the de facto leader of the kingdom, Like, yeah,
shouldn't we see here be doing stuff? You know? Not
that again, not that we're pro monarchy here, but like
even so, but the movie is so like so like,
can she do something? Cold? You do something? I felt

(48:34):
the same way about. Queen is a Queen Gertrude? Get
that right, Fiona's mom? Yes, I don't know. Queen Lilian.
Queen Lilian, Oh my god, I'm so why did I
say Queen Gertrude? I think it's literally from Hamlet. I'm sorry,
I'm so smart um, so, okay, Queen Lilian, I feel

(48:54):
like she again was just like not she was a
bigger part of Shrek to than she is Shrek the Third.
But again, you have like a really really strong like
I would totally understand if like a Shrek movie doesn't
really want to explore grief. Fine, it's for eight year
old I get it. But even if you take that

(49:17):
out of the equation, why isn't Queen Like? It just
feels like theoretically, because I don't there should be like
some little snappy little title for whatever this this trope is.
And I feel like it is really like thriving around
this time where it's like the character has all of

(49:37):
the trappings of a quote unquote strong female character, but
it means nothing. It's like strictly symbolic because it never
has any bearing on the plot, and they'll always sort
of go towards the traditional feminine expectations, but sometimes they
get to kick right, but they're not really subverting anything.
And I feel like Queen Lillian is the same thing

(49:58):
where it's like she gets her like fighting girl Boss
moment where she like slams her head against the wall
and the walm brakes great love that, but like, why
can't I don't know. It's like Lillian and Fiona are
We're told repeatedly, these are empowered women, these are strong
female characters, but it's never brought up between the two

(50:19):
of them. Why couldn't one of us? Like why not
Queen Lilian? Why is she like disqualified? What are the
rules of this monarchy? Like? It never comes up that
she would have any interest in like but we're told
she's like this girl boss, but she has no interest
in the boss portion. It just doesn't make sense to

(50:40):
me here, it doesn't make sense. Here's a pitch for
a snappy name. Yeah for this trope, because these characters
are so or because it's like presentation of like quote
unquote girl power is very hollow and never like leads
to anything. What if it's hollow? Holly, thank you, thank
you so much? Oh my gosh, cheers, applause. Wow, people

(51:04):
are getting out. I'm screaming, crying. Anyway, Jo had an orgasm. Um,
I'll keep work shopping it. But I think that's kind
of perfect. I feel like a hollow. That's a strong hollow, hollow.

(51:24):
We'll figure it out. Listeners sound off, What the funk?
Or maybe someone has already like attributed a label to
this and we just haven't heard about it, but like
because we have been, you know, it's like it like
ties into like you're just saying like girl power feminism,
where it's insisting that it's really subversive feminist thing, but

(51:45):
it's falling into traditional values pretty cleanly at the end
of the day. But they're allowed to say one swear
or something. Um, yeah, it's very symbolic hollow pepe poop
who I don't like it, and that's my pitch. Um
I love that too, but yeah, I just was really
frustrated by like you know, and and and to the
point where it's like Queen Lilian and Fionna are like

(52:08):
standing in the background of a lot of these scenes
and they never say anything. It's really frustrating. I want
to go through beat by beat as far as what
happens with Fiona as they're like escaping the castle and
like doing this like again quote unquote girl power part

(52:30):
of the story. So Charming breaks into the castle, Fiona
takes initiatives. She leads the other women to safety, which
include snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Rapunzel, who are
four of the most damseled characters in fairy tale lore,
which will come back in a moment, and then also

(52:50):
an ugly step sister and an ugly sub sec and
Fiona's mom. Yes, yeah, and I do feel like that.
I don't know if if Shrek is the first franchise
to do this, but like that has been. It feels
this actually feels quite shreky in. I don't like how
they're like, let's create an alternative to the aggressively damseled

(53:12):
characters by making them horrible. Like that just felt like
there's so many ways to do that. Why would you
choose that direction? Whatever, that's the creative choice they made,
and I don't have to like it, um, but um,
I feel like that is like very shreky in, because
that's why the movies exist, is to like make fun

(53:32):
of disney Ship, because it started with Jeffrey Katzenberg wanting
to spite Disney. So it's like that is the formula
of like find Disney tropes and then put them on
their head, even if you're making it bad in a
different way. So that feels very in line with the
shreky In stuff. And then that's like kind of weirdly

(53:56):
like something that Disney also starts to do, because that
that whole sequence where my to me of like the
wreck it Ralph thing where it's like the Disney princesses
appear as themselves, but now they're like different, and it's
like it's Shrek's impact. Look, Shrek the Third not very good,
but Shrek's impact really kind of culturally cannot be overstated

(54:17):
because it's like Shrek did so well at making fun
of Disney that Disney had no choice but to make
fun of Disney, and that really makes you think, Wow,
the shreky and impact on the world is palpable. It's
like I can smell it. Um. Okay, so we've got
this this group of women. Fiona is leading them to safety.

(54:40):
We see that scene in the dark Corridor where the
princesses are bickering. They seem to be jealous of each
other's beauty. Fiona's mom even has to say, like, let
go of your petty complaints and let's work together. Fiona
leaves them out of the castle and that seems like
they're safe until Rapunzel betrays them and the rest of

(55:00):
them are captured and thrown in the dungeon. And then
Fiona is like, we need to find a way out,
but she only says that after she learns that, like
Shrek is in danger, So like why wouldn't she try
to like be more adamant about escaping just because they're
locked in a dungeon. But it's not until she was like,
oh my god, my husband and my husband, I have

(55:23):
to get out now. I don't know, like I truly
think that, Like Fiona's plotline is like comically underthought, like
truly her mote like it just this is like a
bizarre gripe, but just like another way where I'm just
like wow, like the guy's writing this movie. It's just

(55:43):
like Fiona is having a baby shower, it seems like.
And then which made me ask myself, how long has
Shrek been gone? If we're to believe that, like Fiona
has basically the gestation period of a human, which I
think she went because she was human for a very
long time. But also I don't know, I don't know
how that works, right, But it's like a shark ban
gone for six months, Like baby showers generally don't happen

(56:06):
until pretty far into the pregnancy to the shregnancy yeah,
the shregnancy. But again, it's just like these are just
not things that the writers know or care about, or like,
her motivation from scene to scene makes no sense. It's
just like it feels like they are like, Okay, there's
a scene where she's kicking, and we can call it
a day. I found that her bringing her friends and

(56:27):
mother to safety to be the most effective motivated Fiona
moment because it didn't feel forced. All the other stuff forced.
But unfortunately, as we've said, goes nowhere because what happens.
So she's like, we need to escape. And then the
other princess is the very traditionally damse old ones assume

(56:50):
the position of waiting to be rescued by a man,
and Fiona is like, what are you doing? And they're like,
we're waiting around to be rescued, and snow White says
something like, you know, we're just a bunch of hot
princesses and a pregnant ogre and an old lady, like
what are we supposed to do? And that's when Fiona's
mom is like bashes her head against two stone walls

(57:12):
to break them down, and you know, Fiona is like,
we're gonna take care of business, we're gonna actively do something,
and that's when we have this like quote unquote girl
power montage where they're like tearing their dresses to make
them easier to move around. In Cinderella is like sharpening

(57:33):
her glass slipper, there's like a bra burning moment, which
is like when you think about what that's symbolic of, right,
I again, you're like, I mean, I guess it's very
shrekky and to present an empty reference that makes no
sense within the story. So I sure, but yeah, I mean, well,

(57:56):
brad branding is like a whole other thing because like
that that's like a cultural myths like I didn't even
but didn't happen, but not that five white guys in
a room would know that. I'm sure they're like, oh,
that definitely happened, and that meant that they're like, um,
girl power, feminism. What does it look like they burn
a bra? Okay, let's put that in the movie. Done, done, done,

(58:18):
write it down like it's it's so yeah, it's just
like really really um lazy easy lazy lazy doesn't make sense.
Then the women storm the castle and fight, using their
specific skills to the best of their ability. I guess
in terms of like didn't hate it, Yeah, because it's

(58:40):
like snow snow White uses the animals. Yeah, she summons
a bunch of woodland critters and has them attacked the guards.
Cinderella uses her glass slipper as a weapon. Sleeping Beauty
passes out and trips some people with her body, and
then they all invade the castle during Charming's show, and

(59:00):
Fiona's like, Shrek, I'm here to save you. But then
Fiona is immediately tied up and damseled. It's up to right,
and so it's up to Shrek to like fight the villain,
and then it ends up being Dragon, who was also
basically written out of the movie, who swoops in and

(59:21):
lands the killing blow by knocking a tower over onto Charming. Right,
So not that she gets any like recognition for doing that,
because she's really like mommyfied by this story as well,
where like she's basically only mommy, Like she's she's now
mommy to bananas, Yes, bananas the donkey Dragon, which and

(59:44):
there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, yeah, it's
I feel like it is a very tropy thing. I know,
it's a very tropy thing that once a character is
a mother. They are like and that's the whole character. Now,
mother could not possibly have another facet to their life,

(01:00:05):
and that is very much what happens to Dragon, and
then it's eventually what happens to Fiona. And don't we
love that? We do not? Um. Yeah, Ultimately it's the
veil or like the facade of women being empowered and

(01:00:26):
like doing something, having some agency, but it's all extremely
hollow because when the moment comes where they can actually
like affect the story in some significant way, such as
Fiona saving Shrek, that doesn't happen. She's tied up, she's
damned old. So just it's like super empty. It's just

(01:00:47):
a facade of empowerment for women and nothing actually meaningful
or real. Yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah, it's
it's a bummer. I do think that, Like, you know,
this movie came out in two thousand seven, and I
think if it was made today that would be less

(01:01:08):
of an issue. I do feel like children and maybe
correct me if I'm wrong, but like I think the
kids movies specifically have come a very very long way
and they last like fifteen to twenty years, and I
think like more so than a lot of genres for adults. Like,
I think it's come further than rom coms. It's come
further than action movies. I think, honestly, if I'm poking

(01:01:30):
a little fun at current movie tropes, if this movie
came out today, it would be about Shrek's childhood trauma,
and it would be about Fiona's childhood trauma, and it
would be beautiful and it would make us cry. And
that's why I'm excited for Shrek five. Um. But but yeah,
like I think that like this era is, it's so
bizarre and it makes you feel like you me much

(01:01:52):
like Queen Lilian and banging my head against a wall.
But the wall is not breaking. It remains much the same.
Because you're telling me that this is an empowered female character.
But then, but that's not what's happening. Um. But you know,
I think that I don't know, there's there's better Shreks ahead.

(01:02:13):
I can feel it. I can just feel hello, oh
my god, and that I shouldn't have said that. Yeah,
there's an emergency happen anyway. Don't get this out of
the It's an emergency. Everyone's getting scary set of Shrek
five because we're going to add a female character. Oh

(01:02:35):
my god, because Shrek five there's a set. Because Shrek
five is live action, they're doing it's Brian Darcy James
and Sutton Foster don't the musical um and it looks normal.
It doesn't look scary. Okay, So did you have anything
else to say about the hollow feminism of this movie? No,

(01:02:58):
I don't think so. Okay, We've we've talked about this
before in Shrek episodes. There are so many of the
era UM I wasn't picking up on quite as many
um gay jokes in this one. I think that there
was a queer coded stylist, which we've seen a million times.

(01:03:18):
It was very lazy troupe. But the Shrek franchise, especially
in earlier installments, excuse transphobic like all the time. And
it's tricky because it's like, I don't know how the
ugly step sisters are. I mean, they're coded as like
looking more masculine, and therefore they are ugly, like they
have masculine features, and so they're ugly and are voiced

(01:03:41):
by male voice actors exactly, and not just male voice actors.
I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.
Their voice by Larry King, and we just filled in
I did not recognize those voices, and so you're like,
and why on earth is that? I Like? I just

(01:04:02):
was like, well, like, for what I mean? I don't
think that this movie is as aggressively transphobic as the
first movie, and not as aggressively transphobic as Shrek the Musical,
which had to have several lines removed um for subsequent productions,
which I think we've talked about on the show before,

(01:04:23):
and Shrek two. This was a big part of our
discussion because Shrek two is still leaning into a lot
of very transphobic gender normative jokes, and because this is
a sidebar, but because Shrek three is called Shrek the Third,
I think Shrek two should have been called Shrek Jr.

(01:04:44):
It's only right. But we can move on from that. Um.
But yes, want bananas did get his own movie off manners. Um, Okay, No,
but I I think it's it's I think frustrating that,
from what I can remember, is the least transphobic Shrek

(01:05:04):
movie and it's still pretty transphobic. Yes, and indeed, um,
And it's baffling to me that in a movie franchise
that's all about beauty is found within that being the
sorry to say thrust again, but being the thrust of
the narrative. Do not just don't include characters from literature

(01:05:29):
who are called the ugly step sisters because like or
if you're going to include them, subvert like you know,
subvert that or like anything, just do something. But because
these ugly subsister characters are presented as not conforming to
rigid Western beauty standards, and it seems like the intention

(01:05:53):
of the joke is something along the lines of these
women are masculine and therefore ugly, right, horrible statement to
make in any movie, but especially when targeted towards children,
And why include about accepting yourself? Yeah, it's so it's

(01:06:14):
just like these movies are like it's very shriky and
for something to mean nothing because yeah, I was really
I was really frustrated about that. It's so like, I
guess I apologize if if we're not like having the
conversation that deserves if we had about like transphobia inside
of this franchise, this one for me famously uh this

(01:06:36):
person with one brain cell. So but like there was
so much like weird coding that it was like difficult
to like, there wasn't an outright like the characters were
not never declared to be anything, but uh, this woman.
But like because of all these creative choices, you're like,

(01:06:56):
the coding is there, the coding is for sure, they
absolutely and like I just yeah, it's just so fucking
ridiculous that. Yeah, like you're totally right that this franchise specifically,
it's just nothing means anything. No, Nope, this is a sidebar.
But like, also, why do people want Prince Charming to

(01:07:19):
come back? I couldn't stand him in the last movie.
Why is he back? I don't because they need a villain.
I'm not sure you know who should be back? More
is Dragon again basically written out of this movie. This
was also part of our discussion on the Shrek two
episode where she's not in the movie because someone, maybe Fiona,

(01:07:43):
is like, hey, Donkey, where's Dragon And he says, oh,
she's really moody, So I'm like distancing myself from her.
She's on her Dragon period, so you're just like, oh
my god. In this one, when Donkey is about to
embark on his ernie with Shrek, Dragon is there with
their five babies, and Donkey says something like, oh, yeah,

(01:08:07):
I don't want to leave either, but you know, Shrek
he needs me. So Donkey is just like leaving Dragon
with their many babies. He's shreking his parental responsibilities. Well,
I will say I think that Donkey appears to be
a good parent, which that is, he's very nurturing, he

(01:08:28):
seems supportive and loving. Yeah, I think it is like, again,
very trophy and shitty that it's like, well, the father
needs to go on a quest and like the stay
at home. I don't think it's even bad that Donkey
goes on a quest, but it's like, well, but we're
never going to see that in the reverse in these movies,
and that is more the issue. I was happy that

(01:08:51):
he that Donkey was enthusiastic about parenthood in opposition to Shrek,
and I was happy that he was excited to be
an uncle. Like I have no real issue with Donkey
in this movie, and that's partially because he doesn't really
do anything. He see Shrek's dick. That's that's the last
thing that happens before the title sequence. This is very true.

(01:09:13):
I also found it fascinating that so there's a moment
where Pus starts explaining sex to Shrek to be like,
this is how babies are made, and Shrek is like, yeah,
I know, because Shrek Fox, this is canon. We know this. Yeah,
but he sucked his wife raw the day her father died. Yes,

(01:09:36):
he's serious. Yeah, grow up people, and that's cannon Like
put it on the Wikipedia page, Shreck, if you had
a fun immediately after receiving the news of the death
of her father. It's how they blow off steam, and
you're rude to judge them for it. It was making love.
It's not weird anyway. Okay, So so grief can look

(01:10:00):
like anything. So pusses explaining sex and Shrek is like,
I know. But then Donkey is like, wait, how does
it work, as if Donkey doesn't understand sex or like
conceiving of babies. Meanwhile, Donkey is the father of five children,
so he presumably had sex. It does appear again, this

(01:10:22):
is a very like it appears that Donkey's kids are
all the same age, which and and Shrek eventually has
I think triplets, which leads me to another thing that
happens when five straight white guys write a movie together,
which is that they seem to believe that women give
birth in litters like like cats and dogs and um,

(01:10:45):
and I celebrate that that is a level of not knowing.
I'm like, I have to assume because they're all like
in their thirties and forties, statistically probably one of them
is a parent, And like, how could you still say that? Um,
it's really bizarre. No, not sure. No person with the
womb gives for the gist. One. It's a bunch, it's

(01:11:09):
a son of children. It's a heap what I will say.
Going back quickly to the very like trophy gendered way
in which the like Shrek and Fiona, parenthood storyline is represented,
I did appreciate that the story takes it in the

(01:11:30):
direction of Shrek not being worried about his life being ruined,
because I think so much of that like trophy narrative
is like, oh, you know, I don't want to get
married to some ball and chain, I don't want to
have kids. They're just gonna drag me down and not
let me live my like whatever dick swinging lifestyle I
want to live. But I at least appreciate that Shrek

(01:11:54):
is like, I'm not worried about my life being ruined.
I'm worried about not being a good parent and that
I'm going to like mess up my kids, right. But
his reasoning is, you know, ogres are not known for
being sweet, nurturing caregivers. But the whole premise of the
movie is that ogres are misunderstood and they are vilified

(01:12:19):
for no reason and all these things. So it's curious
why he I mean, I get why he's still why
he thinks that, And again, I understand apprehension and reluctance
as it relates to parenting. This is something though, that
people of all genders experience, which we've talked about. But
I think, yeah, again, it's like, it's not it's the

(01:12:41):
same thing with um with Donkey going on a quest,
It's not The issue isn't that he goes on a quest.
The issue is that Dragon. It would never happen that
Dragon would go on a quest. It's not an issue
that Shrek has anxieties about what kind of parents he
is going to be. Is that the franchise would never
let Fiona have those same anxieties. It's an equitable environment

(01:13:02):
for storytelling exactly. The final thing I want to say
is that Ginger there's a scene where he is scared,
surrounded by villains with weapons, and Gingi poops and what
Gingi poops out is a little purple gum drop which
is identical to the two purple gum drops on his chest.

(01:13:26):
Does that mean that Gingy wears his own poop on
his chest as nipples as two vertical nipples or or
does he poop nipples? WHOA? Okay, these are some interesting

(01:13:48):
thoughts that we have posited. Yes, don't rule it out.
There's there's a lot to think about. Okay, this is
maybe maybe maybe this is our new scabs dry scabs.
Does Gingie poop nipples? Or does he wear his ship
as nipples? It's a good questions, a valid question. Did

(01:14:08):
Shrek and Fiona actually we answer that question? Yes, And
there's a tape. I've seen the tape. Have you ever
seen the Colin Ferrell sex tape? Because I have no,
I haven't seen that one. It's good. Oh okay, nice. Well,
I guess you can leave that in the episode or not,
and I guess I'll just be surprised. All right, Okay, um,

(01:14:33):
do you have anything else you want to say? Let
me see what else? I mean? I think that like
there's probably more to, oh, I guess um, Merlin. I
feel like there's a bunch of like very of the
time mental health jokes made around Merlin, where the Justin
Timberlake character is like, oh, yeah, they sent Merlin out
here after he had a mental breakdown, and it's like
Merlin is using like mental health terms and Shrek is

(01:14:56):
like shut up, Like but then he's also using extremely
ablest language and a few examples, and he's also with
that he's insulting other characters for their struggles with mental health.
But then at the same time, like what Merlin does
is helpful in like further characterizing Justin Timberlake. But then

(01:15:21):
once Justin Timberlake uses the mental health exercise that Merlin
has him do, Merlin is then like you're a basket case.
And I was like, all right, which like, oh gosh,
And all that happens there is that we learned that
Arthur has abandonment issues because he was abandoned by his father.

(01:15:46):
Of course that would lead to trauma for a person.
But yeah, for Merlin to be like, Wow, what a nutcase,
And then it's so ridiculous. I really can't stand it.
Shrek the third, it's a stinky more like Shrek the Third.
But is it more Shrek than nipples? We don't know.

(01:16:08):
I think I smell some new merch coming. I think
I smell some nipples. I oh god, no one wants
that merch, Caitlin, Um oh subverse Okay, I did say
subversion a plot Warlock, because we usually have plot witches
a plot witch, but this time it's get Wizard, so

(01:16:29):
it doesn't do anything, but it is something that happened. Um.
And then I think. My last thought on this one
is that this movie convinced me that Fiona would be
not unreasonable to leave Shrek. I agree, Yeah, because if
I'm Fiona and my husband doesn't even say, doesn't even say, well,

(01:16:52):
you could do the job, because she we've just seen
a whole montage where she's doing the job better than him.
It's her family. Yeah, if I'm married to someone that
it doesn't even occur to them. They would rather go
on a quest and bring back justin timber Lake, then
suggest that I could do a job that I had
been doing to some extent for a huge chunk of
my life. I would not stay with that ogre. Yeah,

(01:17:17):
I wouldn't. I think that, and I certainly wouldn't let
them intred nate me. And that's and that's my feminism. Yeah,
I want to be with someone who tells me I
can do it a job, nothing else. Brave of you. Um,
thank you. Some people will say that's extreme, not me.

(01:17:39):
I support it, thank you. At the end of the day,
Shrek and Shreky in properties, I think they are being subversive.
But now that we've covered three Shrek movies, and you
better believe we're gonna at some point cover Shrek four
and make no mistake, we're still absolutely wild about this
franchise in spite of only really having negative things to

(01:18:00):
say about it. Um, it's hard to explain. You wouldn't understand.
I'm sorry that was that was needlessly combative. You might
understand that people have been listening to this show for
seven years. You wouldn't understand. I bet there are a
lot of people who would understand. I think I think so,

(01:18:22):
And I'm sorry I came in too hot and I
shouldn't have. I'm going to issue a notes ap apology
for coming in too hot on the strike the third episode.
I already forgive you, Jamie, but um, the point is
to be Shreky and is to be subversive, but not
but never in quite the right ways, never in ways

(01:18:44):
that are actually commenting on things, or like championing marginalized people,
or are using effective comedy things like that, except for
the frog thing, which apparently really stuck with general audiences. Yeah,
I did kind of. So right after the frog King
dies there's a like kind of funeral procession scene where

(01:19:11):
it's like raining and dark and sad and some is
playing and I did. I was like, damn, that is
sad about that king. It was pretty Yeah, And again,
like we were saying at the beginning of the episode,
that could have been and you can kid the movie
if I this Pixar movies exist, you know, like not

(01:19:34):
that I want Shrek to be a Pixar movie. That
would be so fun. Actually yeah, I actually don't want to,
Like I don't really want Shrek to plumb the depths really,
but like if you're going to have that whole funeral scene,
you can't like never bring that up again. Like Fiona
has lost her father, who we know because of Shrek too.

(01:19:55):
She is a very complicated relationship with there's a whole
like a huge chunk of Shrek two as about her
father being convinced by the evil fairy Prince Charming's mother,
the fairy Godmother, to force his daughter to change species again.
And then like they find out at the end of

(01:20:16):
that movie that they have this commonality where her father's
a frog. Okay, I just I'm sounding too serious for
the sentences I'm saying, no, no, no, no, keep going.
Her father's a frog, Fianna is an ogre. They choose
to stay in their natural forms. They don't want to conform, right,
This is a huge thing they have in common. And

(01:20:38):
it was a hard one thing for her dad to
be able to admit that about himself. And I believe,
if I'm remembering correctly, he owes a lot of his
willingness to be in his natural form to seeing how
happy his daughter is in her natural form. So it's
like it's a whole like I mean, and Shrek two
is like not good, but you have all that fucking raw,

(01:21:03):
grizzly material and then you kill that character and the
first ten minutes after this huge arc between them and
she's like two seconds later it's like, well I'm gregnant now,
Like it's it's it's like Fiona is always treated like
only one thing can be happening with her. Um. That
is not how Strek is treated. He's struggling with a
bunch of different things that wants, and he's on a

(01:21:24):
quest and he's da dada like. He's allowed to be
very kind of multi. Yeah, yeah, he can have more
than one thing going on at one time. But it's
like Fiona can't be grieving and shregnant and interested in
having a job. That would be too much. It's too
much to ask for. I just you know. And the

(01:21:45):
movie is only like two minutes long. There was room
ten minute long credit. Are you joking, babe? It's I
mean not that I'm gonna knock a movie for being
eighty two minutes long. That's iconic. I love it. Please
let there be more short movies. But yeah, that's to say,
make it ninety minutes and give Fiona or cut out

(01:22:07):
just a differently. I don't, Okay, we gotta get out
of here. We gotta get out of here. You might leave.
It passes the Bechtel test. It does pass when the
princesses are insulting each other incessantly, and it does pass
um when they are I believe, when they are planning

(01:22:30):
the the attack, it does also pass, so there's I
would say most of the passes are frustrating because it's
like women insulting each other at very gendered events in
very gendered ways like oh, you're not prettier, I'm prettier.
To be fair, we are always saying that to each other,

(01:22:51):
and that is true. I'm popping out shreds like a
T shirt gun at a basketball game. So you know,
like it passes the battle test. But the one true metric, yes,
oh my god. And now is it the nipple scale
or is it the ship drop ship scale? Hard to say, Okay,

(01:23:15):
so our nipple scale or the scale formerly known as
the nipple scale the artists formerly known scale zero to
five nipples. Examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lenses,
I would give Struck the third. I would give it
a half nipple, just in case there are like small

(01:23:35):
children out there, maybe little girls who saw that sequence
where it is a very hollow girl power sequence or
it ends up being hollow because it doesn't lead to
any thing really, But in two thousand seven, you know,
it's like in two thousand and seven that the pickens

(01:23:55):
are slam and maybe you know, yeah, if you've if
you found it, I powering more power to you and
you've got better options now I agree with you there. Yeah,
so just for that like little sliver of something that
could be empowering for viewers, I will give it a
half nipple. But because of everything else we discussed, it

(01:24:20):
does not deserve more than that. I feel it doesn't,
so I'll give my half nipple too. I don't know
if I should give it to Fiona, who always deserves
more than she's given in these movies, or if I
should give it to Gingi's possible gum drop nipple slash
possible piece of poop. I mean, I think you know

(01:24:42):
the answer, and it's feminists will be furious, but it's
the gum drop poop slash nipple. Yeah, it is very
much is what do you think you know? I think
I'm actually I'm gonna match you and and so that
Ginge and have a full poop nipple, full hot shit.

(01:25:04):
I will. I will bequeath the same half nipple. There's
really not this is I think allow for the franchise,
but I also don't really remember what happens in Shrek
four because someone was someone the hands inside of me
and so it may get worse. I feel like it
gets better. I think the fourth one involves time travel.

(01:25:29):
That's incredible. I can't know, or or the prequel or
the prequel it doesn't like justin Timberlake is not in it. Okay,
good and and we thank our lucky stars. Yes, he
was too busy. He was doing so set right. I
have never seen Shrek four, so I am excited to
watch it. And once again, I'll just be plugging puts

(01:25:50):
in boots the Last Wish, which was an incredible piece
of art and cinema, cinema cinema. On that note, happy
New Year to all and to all a good but
also that was subversive. That subverse notes incredible. Jamie, before you,

(01:26:18):
but before you have to all a good Shrek. Scoot
on over to our Matreon, where we have the Pinocchio
Wars about to happen, actively happening. It's coming, especially if
you enjoy um these kinds of episodes. We do them
pretty rarely on the main feed, but um, most of
our Matreon episodes are just me and Caitlin tend to
be a little looser. The movies tend to be generally

(01:26:41):
pretty light, um, except for this month when we're doing
the Pinocchio Wars, which is actually really serious. We're covering
both the bad Robert Samakis one and the allegedly good
Del Toro one. I still have yet to watch them,
but I can't wait. I love that Tom Hanks is
in his flop era. It's so interesting. He's he's flopping around.

(01:27:05):
He's about to be a man called Auto and I'm like,
I'm not seeing that. I'm gonna see Megan five times.
I already have my tickets. I have my tickets. Do
you want to go to Marrow Night? Maybe because my
ticket already? Oh wait, sorry I forgot your busy. Okay, anyway,
we'll figure it out. You'll go again, and I'll go
with you. So the Matron is five dollars a month

(01:27:25):
and you get to bonus episodes and access to a
bad catalog of well over a hundred episodes. We've been
doing the Matreon for around five years, it's true. Also,
you can follow us on social media. You certainly can
on Instagram and Twitter, and then you can go to
t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast, where we
have none other than a brand new shreky in shirt

(01:27:49):
pillow phone case, other items, well, probably for promo images
post with our with our shreky in merch. Yeah, because
we have some brag. We also have other new designs.
We have the Flubber Mambo by Danny Elfman, which is
a design honestly I wanted and so it had to happen. Also,

(01:28:10):
I think it's a really fun design. It's great, it's wonderful.
And we have feminist icon Paddington's and much demanded. Um.
I drank tea from my feminist icon Paddington mug this
morning because I don't recognize who I am as a
person anymore drinking tea. Oh my gosh, Jamie, Yeah yeah,
I changed well, uh and that so that you can

(01:28:32):
get that over at tea public dot com, slash v
beck del cast. If you participate in Valentine's Day facori
and so forth, they're fun little gifts, give them to whoever.
I was not sure where that was going for a minute,
because I forgot I was take me on a date.
I forgot that like people love each other and they

(01:28:54):
give each other gifts romantically. For Valentine's Day, I got
a hat for the HOLID got a hat for the holidays,
and it's from It's from a livestock contest that happened
in Ventura County. Most romantic gift I've ever received. It's like, wow,
you get me, even more romantic of a gift than
the give Carl. Okay, we gotta go, We gotta go.

(01:29:23):
Bye bye bye