Space Jam with Princess Weekes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have wouum,
are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do
they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast. Everybody, get up, it's time
to cast. Now we got a podcast going down. Welcome

(00:22):
to the Bechtel Cast. It's your chance. Here's some rants
on the Bechtel Cast. Alright, alright, we have to keep going.
Come on and cast, and welcome to the cast. Come
on and cast if you want to. Caitlin, Jock Jams Durante,

(00:45):
thank you. I love a good jock jam. Oh so good.
If I'm having trouble getting started in the morning, I
find a Spotify list of jock jams and I get
to it. It's very effective, very good. Yeah, well, well,
welcome to the podcast. It's it's we've been waiting for.

(01:09):
This day has been a long time coming. It's Space
Jam days. We've been talking about covering it forever. We
were originally going to wait until the sequel came out. Yeah,
but the sequel is just I mean maybe it's coming
button and now who knows, you know where the productor

(01:29):
it simply couldn't wait a moment longer. True. Um, this
is the Bechtel Cast Our Feminist Movie podcast, in which
we examine films through an intersectional feminist lens inspired by
the Bechdel Test, but we we do a far deeper dive. Yeah,
good grief. What's the Bechdel Test, Jamie? Well if if

(01:53):
you recall, it is a media metric invented by Alison Bechdel,
sometimes called the Beck dol wall Us Test. She's a
queer cartoonist who invented this media metric that requires that
to uh, female identifying characters that have names talk to
each other about something other than a man for more

(02:14):
than two lines of dialogue, female characters or just anyone
of a marginalized gender, right, I mean her original with
the version we use anyone of a marginalized gender speaking
to each other about something other than you know, let's say,
for this movie Bugs Bunny. Uh spoiler alert. Most movies

(02:35):
don't pass, and this movie doesn't pass. No, ye, right
up front, So I know it's like, well, I feel
like we always like like do a big drum roll
at the end, but now as time goes on, doesn't matter,
not much. It doesn't like most likely no, most likely no. Okay,

(02:58):
So that's the podcast today. Like we said, we're covering
Space Jam. We have a wonderful guest. She is a
writer for The Mary Sue. She is the co host
of pbs is It's Lit. She has a great YouTube channel,
It's Princess Weeks, It's towns Land and love Them see
their Jam. I have been waiting for this. I I feel,

(03:23):
I feel like to be able to cover Space Jam
on the Back Deal cast is like my purpose in life,
Like I feel like kill Manger in in Black Panthers,
Like I've been trading my whole life for this. You know,
I've your hero's journey has led to this. Here we are.
This is the final challenge. It's finally here. And it's

(03:46):
so funny that you bring up that this movie fails
the beach Del test, because the first thing I wrote
in my notes is like the only terrible things about
Space Jam or that it doesn't pass the Back Deal test,
And it opens within r Kelly song like those are
those to me are like the un givable sins of
this movie that I love so much. I'm like, yes,
I started watching it and it was like, oh, oh no, right, yeah,

(04:10):
and the other things as well. I'm so there's this
is a not I mean, I guess not even surprisingly
this is a dense text. Yeah, I was truly. I
feel like as time goes on, I'm always it's always
the movies. I expect to not have a ton of
notes for that, I have like seven pages of notes

(04:31):
for and then other movies like We the Vich I'm like,
I have fourteen words about this movie? What is there
to say? And yet our episode on that was over
an hour and a half. Yeah, it's like I do.
I want to live deliciously absolutely, but let's talk about
capitalism and Space Jam? Like what is that? Because exactly?

(04:51):
Oh it is so, I mean there's so, but like
the layers of marketing. I mean, this movie is marketing,
but the submarketing levels of this movie goes so deep
it was it made me uncomfortable. But then I also
was like, but it's still space Jam, right, So how
uncomfortable could I get? It's the inception of like vanity

(05:13):
projects because everyone's like, oh, because I was like looking
at the older reason, They're like, what two weird concepts
to mash together? And like, no, it's perfect because You're
getting two very popular things to meet where they should
never meet, and yet it made millions. Just worked in
a way that people have been trying to emulate since

(05:36):
it's so I feel like, if things had gone even
a little bit differently, this movie could have been a
total disaster, Like if Michael Jordan's career had gone a
little differently, if the plot had I mean, the plot
is nonsense. It's such a finely tuned like it. I'm
so happy that it came together the way it did

(05:58):
because it could have been such a disaster because it's
it's adapted from two Nike commercials from the early nineties.
What else is there like that? That's Hasbro. Hasbro's whole
ploy was like, let's make toys and turn them into
TV shows the spatial like, we can go beyond. We
can take sneakers and the hip hop community's love of

(06:18):
looking tunes and really fine tune that machine into a
multimillion dollar operation. I and I do appreciate that this movie,
like it does not go halfway and telling you exactly
what it is. Because well, on the Post or Bugs,
Bunny is first build. In the credits, he is second build.

(06:40):
But the fact that these are the two main cast evers,
and there is you know, they eventually credit the voice
actor voicing Bugs Bunny, but it is Bugs Bunny who
is sharing the It's I mean, it's a big swing. Yeah,
it's great. It's like when the Downton Abbey movie, like
didn't put the cat sin the trail. They just put

(07:00):
the names of the characters from down to Nabby. They're
like Robert Crawley, just like you sons it. But I
was there, I was like, I will see Mrs Hughes.
I want to know what she's doing. It's a miracle
that this movie isn't the worst movie of all times.
But it's so good. I'm very excited to talk about it.

(07:21):
And I'm so excited that you're here to talk about it. Yes, Well,
what's your what's your relationship with it? What's your history
with it? For me? All right? So I was four
years old when Space Jam came out, and I have
loved it ever since. I've always been obsessed with Lola Bunny.
I She's an icon to me and I just I
just love it. It's my every time I'm sad or

(07:42):
have like a really bad depressive episode, because I deal
with a lot of that. I put on Space jam
or just listening to the soundtrack, and it like sues me.
It's like being swaddled by a film. And like when
I was rewatching it, I really had to like turn.
I was like, all right, princess, you have to like
forget that you're in love with this product, forget to
take off my nostalgia goggles and put on my like

(08:04):
feminist Bechdel goggles and like, and I always had to
be like, you know, I have notes, I have notes
on that, but overall, I just I love this movie.
I think it's it's a black film in a lot
of ways, from like the soundtrack and the music choices,
and just how you have Michael and like his beautifully
melanated family and um and also like even though he's

(08:27):
not in a lot his encouraging father who's like, yeah,
you can go to school, you can be whatever you
want to be. I just think that, like, you know,
if you're gonna do like marketing vanity project the movie,
those little bits of inclusion that are like in the
weird subtext of the film are like make it worth watching,
even with the critique lens on, Yeah, Jamie, what about

(08:49):
what about you, what's your history with it? I also was,
I think for when this movie came out. I love,
I really liked this movie growing up. I've seen it
a lot and then I like, remember I watched it
with my cousins. I my mom was so like militant
about certain cartoons and there was no like if a

(09:13):
cartoon was too sexy, I couldn't look at it. So
I would have to watch Space Jam at my cousin's
house because there was too much like Rabbit koivish to
watch it it my I can't really like track the logic,
but that was I think what it was. It was

(09:34):
like the bunnies were too horny, and so I couldn't
watch it at home, but I could watch with my
cousins because horny bunnies were okay at their house. So
I watched it a lot on and off in secret
growing up. But I haven't seen it in a long
long time, like at least since high school, I think,
And so it was really fun to rediscover it because

(09:58):
since then, I like know a lot more about animation
history and I'm like way more like I have a
little bit better of a framework about like the history
of Looney tunes, But at the time, I was just like,
I want to see the Sexy Rabbits and they were
kind of forbidden. So now you know, I'm an adult,
I can watch sexy rabbits whenever I want, and so
that's exciting for me. Um. But yeah, it was. So

(10:20):
it was kind of funny too. It was when I
think Caitlin and I we were texting about this, where
it was like if someone had asked me two days
ago to recap the plot of Space Jam, I would
have gotten it completely wrong, like same like mon Stars
versus Michael Jordan's, which is basically it, but there's also
a lot of other stuff going on. Um, yeah, I

(10:41):
love it. What about you, Caitlin. I was ten when
this came out, so I was, I think, like the
Target demo. Um, I loved it. I saw it starting
at age ten, watched it a ton, but probably haven't
seen it since I was eleven or twelve, So there
was like a year or two that I was like
watching it constantly and then I guess I felt that

(11:03):
I had grown out of it and then stopped watching it.
So I yeah, I haven't seen it in well over
two decades, and really there's I remembered almost nothing, except
there was one shot where as soon as I saw it,
I was like, oh yeah, that it would have been
like burned into my memory forever. And it's when Michael Jordan,

(11:24):
when he first arrives in like Looney Tune Land, they're
like doing like a metal medical examination of him, and
one of the Looney Tunes looks into his ear and
then you cut to like an animated like shot of
the inside of his ear and there's like a paper
clip in there, and I was like, and that always
haunted me as a child, and I saw it again.

(11:46):
I thought about that shot when I was watching it
as well, because I was like, you know, Michael Jordan's
is very like scrupulous about his image, and I'm like,
I'm honestly surprised it got past his pr team to
be like, my the inside of Michael's ears has paper
clip sending them was like he I guess that he
was okay with that, right. A lot of the people
in this movie really let themselves be really silly and

(12:07):
it which surprised me. I was like, Wow, Charles Barkley
really got into this performance. Charles Barkley his physical acting,
pretending to forget basketball is really convincing it. That was
Patrick Hewings whole, like I can't do Like they did
a really good job for non comedic actors. I'm like,
was Bill Murray giving you all tips on set because

(12:28):
you guys were really doing quality quality vaudeville right there. Yeah,
it was really that every I mean, and like I mean,
athletes acting can be so all over the place, but
it's like pretty consistently on point in this movie, Like
it's Michael Jordan's kills it. Charles Barkley is like, I
might disagree with that Michael Jordan is a little clunky

(12:51):
because I was watching him he he's wouldn't but when
he actually is having fun, you can tell. Because I
just feel like if I compare this to like the best,
the best has ever done with this kind of concept
is like still who framed Roger Rabbit and like that
was like acting with the cartoons and like Michael Jordan
is acting at the cartoons and so but you know what,

(13:14):
I expected a lot worse to be quite frank, watching it, Yeah,
I was like, I guess, I guess in the framework
of athletes acting, I just like I wasn't expecting like
Andy Circus green screen performance here, it was just like
I was like, if the eyeline is hitting and there's
like sort I was like, wow, amazing, the bar is low. Yes,

(13:36):
but it's funny because I've watched Space Dams so many
times in my twenties, but the last huge time I
watched it was for like my twenty one birthday. I
was like, I just want us to get pizza and
drinks and watch Space Jam and Men in Black back
to back. Like I was like, that's my idea of
like a perfect birthday, and it was an excellent twenty
first birthday. I was like, this is it and it
went very well. What a great double feature? Yeah, truly?

(14:01):
Should I do the recap? Yeah, let's just get into it. Okay,
we'll get into this. This this uh classic Heroes Journey
narrative tale as old as time, in which cartoon characters
are about to be forced into amusement park servitude by
aliens from outer space, and then they recruit Michael Jordan
to help them play basketball because if they win, they

(14:23):
will not be abducted by aliens. So that's why why
did they almost get abducted by aliens? Well? Capitalism right,
Like they're like, well, they're the way that bugs. Bunny
like recaps their plight to Michael Jordan's. Once he gets
into the Loony Tuns the world, You're like, that is
kind of really bizarre. He's like, well they were they

(14:44):
were small, so we were like we could probably do this,
but then it turned out they got big, so now
we're scared. Like he also explains the Steaks to Michael Jordan's,
He's like, we're gonna be basically abducted into slavery, in
which we will have to do stand up comedy every
night and tell the same jokes over and over again gasp.

(15:10):
And then we'll have a next Flix special that no
one watches because Kenna gats people have dropped hers and
everyone will be like, well that's actual content, not this
lead tunes thing. Again. Good gree Okay, anyway, so the
story opens with Michael Jordan's as a child. He's very
good at basketball, and he's like, I'm going to play

(15:31):
in college and then I'm going to be in the NBA.
And then his dad is like, do whatever you want,
you can do it, and then kind of like the
Michael Jordan's legend, right, like that was how I learned
about the Michael Jordan's legend was as portrayed at the
beginning of Space Chap Yeah, that's exactly what happened. And

(15:51):
then we cut two a five minute montage of him
in the NBA, like under the credits, the opening credits.
It is very long, especially as because the last dance
just came out. I'm like, yeah, I know, I know this,
and I know what happens after. I haven't have either
of you seen it. I haven't had a chance to
see it. I haven't finished it, but I started it. Um,

(16:12):
I paused to watch this. I'm like, I don't want
it to ruin my interpretation of Space Tom to know
about Michael Jaman's gambling habits, well that I mean, it's
a very generous documentary towards him, but it's really good,
and the behind the scenes taste you get at the
production of Space Jam is really fun, fun, all very
pro Space Jam the documentary, Thank goodness. Um So, anyway,

(16:37):
we he as an adult. He's in the NBA until
he announces his retirement from basketball to play professional baseball. Meanwhile,
in outer Space, the head of an amusement part called
Moron Mountain, a character voiced by Danny de Vito, Wayne
Night and Danny DeVitto in the same movie My God,

(17:00):
How did we get so lucky? Could we be so lucky? Um?
He says, what is his character's name? It's Hammer, Smack
or something. I just as what I called him. I
was like, Dato, that's like, couldn't tell you. Wait now
I need to know. Let me look at it. I free.

(17:20):
He's so Mr swack Hammer. He's in the movie very little.
There's at one point he's getting a massage at the
basketball game, which I remember very clearly being like, oh, yeah,
the villain is getting a topless massage at the basketball game. Yeah,
he's in it for like five minutes maybe. But um,

(17:40):
but was Bunny so everyone hated her. But Mr whatever
his name is, is like, we need new attractions at
this amusement park. We need something wacky, something looney, We
need the Looney Tunes. You're like, sure Mark Incorporated. Now

(18:04):
back on Earth, Michael Jordan's is playing baseball. He's not
great at it. He strikes out during his game. And
then this guy stand a k Wayne Night is like
the team's publicist, and he's like, Michael, let me know
anything I can do to make you happy. I'll do
I'll give you rides to places, I'll do your laundry.
He's just there to support Michael. His name is literally yes,

(18:27):
he's stand and he's a Michael Jordan stand. Dan have
no choice but to stand. Also, this just occurred to me,
but I think this is a rare example of a
white character who only exists in the story to serve
a black character, because normally it is the opposite base

(18:49):
jam is woke. Um. So meanwhile, the Moron Mountain Aliens
arrive at in Looney Tune World to try to abduct
Bugs Bunny and his friends, and Bugs Bunnies like, you
can't just do that. You have to give us a
chance to defend ourselves, and the aliens are like, yeah,

(19:10):
of course, we're reasonable, we'll do that. And then the
Looney Tuns decide that they should challenge them to a
game of basketball, as you do. And even though every
Looney Tune is like, what's basketball? And then and then
Bugs Bunny shows them a black and white video of

(19:33):
basketball in the nineteen fifties and they're like, okay, we
get it. And then we're not up to that part yet.
But it's so funny because they're like, these are like
tiny guys. And then when they do like the sizes
for the loot is like at three foot four, and
I'm just like, y'all are not sent it out here,
like calm down, bugs, Like if you think of a
live action reab it, if you think a rabbit that

(19:55):
is three ft four, that is a gigantic rabbit. That's
a hair. That's a hair. At this point, it's just
like it's too big. But even relatively speaking in terms
of relatively speaking in terms of basketball players, three ft
two or whatever is still very short. But the whole

(20:17):
logic behind the Looney Tunes wanting to play basketball is
that they look at the aliens and they're like, well,
they're so short and flimsy and small, let's play basketball
against them because we're sure to win. And then that
is the moment when you realize that an eighth grader
wrote this screenplay. No, there's it is very funny to

(20:39):
me that there are four credited writers on the screenplay,
Like it takes four men to do. It's a really
long commercial. Everybody there, we needed four people? Uh there?
I loved Okay, a plot point that I forgot at
the beginning is when the aliens get I forgot how
they get big, and it's because they steal talent which

(21:04):
is stored in a Spalding branded basketball, and the alien
brings the basketball back into the stands and it's like,
I did it. I took their talent. It's like a
weird thing. Like so it's like the scouts of this
corporation take these mostly black players, steal their talent so

(21:27):
that they can get other corporations. And it's like it's
like it's like it's like you don't know if it's
like high brilliance or like high ridiculous. It's like, yeah,
and this evil corporation is going to take all of
their talent so that they can abuse other people and
absorb more of it. And it's like it is the NBA,
Like is it? It's so hard to tell what is

(21:51):
completely sneaky brilliance and what is just a total mistake, Like, well,
how are we going to get them big? Okay? They
steal talent? Okay, So of the NBA players who get
their talent stolen from them are Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing,
and then three other people who I have no idea

(22:12):
who they are, but if you wouldn't, he would probably
know Sean Bradley, Larry Johnson and Muggsy Bogues. Muggsy Bogues,
I know, just because he's like one of the little
little players that like was really popular then and like
as a and I knew it wasn't a real Knicks
game because I couldn't or maybe I was looking for
Spike Lee because he's always at New York Knicks game

(22:34):
and I was like he maybe was like you can't
put me in space, dam And I was like, did
anyone ask him? Because what a cameo that would have
been if like he's the one I know. It's like
he should have been the one that like is like
where the everybody loves Raymond wife is. I'm like that
should have been Spike Lee's. He should have been there
just being like, man, what's going on here? That moment

(22:57):
with her is also so like I think it's it's
definitely supposed to be funny, but it's very jarring. Her
moment of like because she she's the one sitting next
to the aliens when they steal the talent, She's like,
I think someone's masturbating under their coat, and her husband's like,
shut up and you're like her husband. Her husband played

(23:19):
by Dan Castellanetta, who's famous for voicing a bunch of
Simpson's characters, including like Homer, Krusty Barney, etcetera. So you know,
it was nice to see his face on screen for once.
I guess. He also filled in for Robin Williams in
the Aladdin television show and in a Laddin The Return
of Jaffar before Robin Williams came back for Aladdin and

(23:42):
Nicking of Thieves, because I'm also an Aladdin expert, so
that you get to two things I can do for you. Well,
I didn't. I forgot that. Yeah, he didn't. He didn't
come back. I wonder if Robin Williams also kept his
talent in a basketball, oh or a lamp what? Personally,

(24:08):
even though I'm not good at basketball, I keep my
talent in a basketball just because it's a useful receptacle,
keeps afresh. Um. Okay. So then the Looney Tunes and
the Aliens start, I guess like they're kind of practicing
for their upcoming game. But the Aliens, using the talent

(24:30):
that they stole from the NBA players, transform into these
giant athletic mon stars. So the Looney Tunes abduct Michael
Jordan's while he's playing golf with Bill Murray and Larry
Bird and they bring him to Looney Tunes Land. My
favorite part is when after he gets absorbed in the
hole and like Bill Murray is like, what kind of

(24:52):
camera is that? He's like, don't point it at me.
It's like the talents, which is the closest thing we
get to them reacting at the sudden disappearance of Michael Jordan's.
They're just like, huh, I wonder where he went. Maybe
the cameras that had something to do with it. And
then similarly, when Michael Jordan's shows up in Looney Tune Land,

(25:16):
he's like what's going on here? Like like, no reactions
from these people, It's confusing. I was trying to justify
that too. I was like, well, we already know canonically
in the movie he's a big Looney Tunes fan because
he turns it on for his kids and he goes
see and then he leaves, and so you're like, okay,
so he wouldn't well you know, he's not. We don't

(25:39):
have time. The movie is only seventy minutes long, right,
which what a what a length of time that a
movie could be. It's like, man, I missed those days.
This is in two minutes and that's including like the
longest credit sequence and the longest closing credits, like to
five minute credit sequences at the beginning of and I

(26:01):
Love It. Um Okay, So then Bugs is like, hey,
Michael Jordan's you have to help us, And then they
hold try outs for the Tune Squad basketball team, and
all the Looney Tunes are terrible until Lola Bunny shows
up to try out for the team to the queen

(26:23):
and she's really good at basketball, and Bugs Bunny is
like Hubba, Hubba, who's that? And we just have to
breathe right past this for now because there's so so
so much to unpack that we'll get into later. But
then the tunes Um. There's a scene where they have
to go and pick up Michael's basketball gear from his house,

(26:44):
which is a scene I guess we needed, um And
then you know, I was like, I like, you know what, sure,
sure they have to do this great? Well, I will
say this about this scene. So I had the Space
Jam video game for a PlayStation, and this is like
a thing that you do in the game. So this
is like to me, it's like, this is just a

(27:05):
sequence to like have the kids be with the looting twins.
At the same time, it's our target demographic and they
should maybe get one moment of glory. It's very constructed.
I remember watching him like, so not to jump ahead.
I'm like, so it takes fifty minutes for them to
actually start playing basketball. They're so far set up in

(27:25):
this movie, and I'm like, I don't want I didn't
remember it taking this long for us to get to
the to the to the basketball bits. It's also once
we got to the basketball game, I'm like, there has
to be more than one basketball game, but it's just
the one, just one, just the one. There. The pacing
in this movie is truly wild. Like I but Act

(27:49):
one is fifty minutes long. There's no act too, and
then Act three is like thirty minutes long. It took me.
It wasn't until Michael Jordan's, in another brilliant acting moment,
turned to the clock and he's like, there's ten seconds left.
I was like, wait a second, is this the climax
of the movie? And he says it so because he's like,

(28:10):
you know, in a green screen room, and who would
have prepared him for this moment. He doesn't say it
with that much urgency. He's like, there's ten seconds. He
just is great, there's ten seconds left. I was like,
oh my god, the movie is almost over. I didn't realize.
I thought that was a second game. I was wrong.

(28:32):
I forgot. Well that brings us to the beginning of
the game, where the Tune squad is ready to play.
The game begins. Lola made the team off screen. She
right the whole thing to talk about there no one
else tried out right. Um. The Month Stars are beating
the Looney Tunes pretty badly for like the first half

(28:54):
of the game. Then during halftime Stan who has showed
up Wayne Night, and he spies on the Monsters and
he's like, oh, they're winning because they stole the talent
from these NBA players. Of um, so that's a discovery.
He also accepts this very passively. He's like, yes, yeah, well,

(29:14):
I guess I better go tell Michael Jordan that this
is what's happening. And then he tells Michael Jordan, and
Michael Jordan's like, oh, so that's what happened. To those guys.
I guess we'll just have to go from there. The
humans are very passive in movie. They're just like, okay, well,
let's think of a solution. Here's not a moment of
like what right. So they start playing again, and the

(29:37):
Looney Tunes are able to catch up in the score,
and now they're only two points behind. But Michael Jordan's
says to the owner of the of Moron Mountain, who
has been getting a massage presumably this whole time, says
that if the Looney Tunes, if the Tunes squad wins,
then the Monsters have to give their talent back to
the NBA players. But if the Monsters win, they can

(30:00):
of Michael Jordan's for more on mountain. Um, so the
stakes have been heightened, tightened, the stakes very loud, and
there's ten seconds left, nothing to everything. Michael jordan indentured
servitude to save the single tear runs down here and
you're like, that's right or do they keep referring to

(30:24):
it in the movie slavery? So okay, Um, So then
they play the last ten seconds. Oh um, a lot
of people have gotten injured, so they need a fifth player. Yeah,
Lola Bunny has required rescuing. We'll get to that. Bunny
gets squished and then and then kissed. Wayne Night has

(30:47):
been squished and then inflated, and now all Michael Jordan
has to do is make his arm really long. Right.
But first Bill Murray shows up again. Basically, thank goodness, um,
he's there to day s x mockina the plot. This
doesn't do much for high like changing the steaks, but

(31:08):
he does show up just as the fifth body that
they needed. Yes, it just feels good. And also he
has a line. We're like, oh, yeah, they did just
drop me in here, like I have connections. I was
just like, it's like I love him. So so it's
the last ten seconds Michael Jordan outstretches his arm all

(31:29):
cartoonishly and they child will ever forget, Like it's not
I mean it's I guess it's technically body horror, but
for me it wasn't. I'm like, yeah, that's like superhero ship. Um.
So he scores the game winning point, so the Tune
Squad wins. The Monstars have to give their stolen power

(31:51):
back um, but not before they kick their boss's ass
um and then Michael Jordan brings the NBA players or
talent back. He quits baseball and returns to basketball, and
that is the story. So they're hearing Michael Jordan gives
the NBA players their talent back. I mean, it's all

(32:13):
the hero's journey, beat by beat. I mean nothing about it.
Joseph Campbell could say anything about let's take a quick
break and then we will come right back to discuss
and we're back. Okay, Well where does start? Oh boy?

(32:34):
Uh yeah, princess kick it off. No, before we get
into like like the beck Deli parts, I wanted to say,
what's interesting is that, like, so these are why Michael
Jordan's quit basketball to play baseball in real life is
because his father had died three months prior and his
father had played minor league, I believe, minor league baseball.

(32:55):
And that was like a whole way of him being
able to like be close to him and like pay
troopy to him. I mean, he was also terrible at it,
and I appreciate that the movie shows that, like he's
really bad that people just like him so much. Like
good job, Michael, I mean you failed, but like you
look so good doing it. And I just watching that
part again, Like that opening sequence is like really sad

(33:16):
and touching in retrospect that he chose to immortalize like
his father's legacy in like a film for children that
he probably made to show his own children. So I
just think it's kind of had like a little bit
of sweetness to um why he probably chose to make
such a weird film. But he absolutely did not have

(33:36):
to make this movie. No. So I learned, um when
I was watching The Last Dance that because I was
I didn't know. I mean I knew a lot, I guess,
like what I had absorbed through cultural osmosis about Michael
Jordan's career, but I didn't know like linear, like you know,
the exact timeline until I watched the documentary and bass

(34:00):
Jam comes at a like really interesting time in his career.
Because I was like, why besides money, which we know
Michael Jordan's is, like he has a lot of it,
and besides legacy, I was like, is there any other
reason that he did this movie? And I guess a
part of it is that Warner Brothers like provided him,

(34:21):
like he had a lot of stipulations in his contract
of like shooting can't take up too much of his
time because he was like retraining as he was shooting
this movie. So Warner Brothers like provided him with his
own like private basketball court to use throughout production of
this movie. And like, I guess that I don't know
that the documentary would have you believe that this having

(34:43):
this private space and having this very flexible schedule, um
was part of what allowed him to make a huge
comeback because he was like this movie was shooting as
he was kind of like relaunching his basketball career, which
is interesting. I don't know. There wasn't a negative word
set about Space Jam, and it sounds like everyone had

(35:06):
the time of their lives and it was good bonding
for everybody. It's just the whole Sychael and Bugs are
best friends to this day. Yes, of course I love
I Actually that makes me happy because because of Michael
Jordan's reputation, you could think that he could have been
I mean they could probably they might not have said
it that he could have been a real diva on shed,

(35:28):
but it sounds like that wasn't the case. And to
like have it pull in so many other really famous
and like in their prime NBA players to be like
do you want to just be silly in like a
children's movie for like a whole like twenty minutes. It's
like it's it's That's one of the things I like
about this movie. It doesn't take itself too seriously and
like a lot of the things that were like are

(35:50):
weird about it. I was like as a kid, I
remember thinking like, oh, yeah, like I totally believe the
Lily to just live like a billion feet below ground
like and also like I don't know, I think about
how like hell right, it's also implied that they live
in hell, which means more on mountain is more on
mountain heaven then, And I just can't help but wonder

(36:12):
like if if I if something happened to me and
like I got like I was pulled from the backdell
cast and it's like, oh, you need to help the
Looney Tunes, like you know, with an anime contest. A
part of me would be like what the hell is
going on? With A part of me was like this
is kind of awesome, so I think I will do
this roll with it. It's like if this is a
fever dream, I don't want to be a waken from it.

(36:35):
The Looney Tunes they came into Michael's life at a
pivotal moment in his life, and he's like, all right,
you know, everything happens for a reason, so here I am.
It's very the secret the way he approaches the fun
of this movie. It's like I manifested this, so let's
just let it happen. I mean, so, I guess one

(36:56):
of the more fun and bizarre and princess you've already,
like we've sort of been talking about it already, is
the fact that this movie, which it never I don't know,
I'd never framed it this way in my head, but
the more I was reading about production and then just
watching it, You're like, this is a seventy five minute commercial,
Like this is top to bottom a very effective and

(37:17):
entertaining marketing ploy for so many things that I almost
lost count. It's like relaunching the Looney Tunes into like
the popular as I guess. It is a commercial for
Michael Jordan's comeback. It's a commercial for the NBA. It's
a commercial for five hundred different brands that they mentioned.
It's like it's a commercial for so many things, to

(37:37):
the point where the director, Joe uh Pitka, he's only
directed two movies ever, and then he's directed five hundred commercials.
He's a commercial director who has like all he's only
directed commercials, including and music videos. Um so he's like
a marketing guru. He's not necessarily like your traditional tour

(37:59):
film maker. He has he had previously made commercials with
Michael Jordan's he had directed a number of Michael Jackson
music videos. Like he was an iconic marketer, and the
fact that he's hired for this is like, well, this
movie is like is selling you a lot of stuff
all at once and people bought all of it. Like

(38:21):
there's there's a there's a line where like stand goes
to like, you know, put on your hande like if
your nikes, get your gatorade, you know, eat yeah, And
I'm just I know, and I'll get back and I'm
just like and it came out so weirdly organically, but
as an adult, I'm like, oh, that's so funny. But
as a kid, I would like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I do the thing. And I've never eats before in

(38:42):
my life, but i know I've seen him on boxes
of wheaties, so I'm like, oh yeah, like he of
course he would eat cereal with your face on it
and It's like in retrospect, Wayne Night is just listening
off various Michael Jordan's endorsement deals. You're like, oh, this
was a business thing. And then they're also like, you know,
if we're putting like you know, the Looney Tuns versus

(39:03):
Disney cartoons, Looney Tunes are far sillier and far more aware,
like self aware that they are cartoon characters that are
owned by a company. But it's also very on display
in this movie because there's that like a shot where
Daffy Duck is showing that he has like a Warner
Brothers tattoo on the grass, and then he kisses it
and he's like, I love being property of the Warner

(39:24):
Brothers company. You're just like this movie is so weird
because it is so flagrantly pro capitalism, but it also
seems to be making fun of it and critiquing it
in moments. But then you're like, but is it I
don't know, I don't know. It's weirdly pro union, like
they brag up. Someone said like he's like it's like

(39:45):
we're a cartoon union members discussion about what's gonna happen,
and I'm like wow, like like wait, they have a
union meeting in Hell where they live. There's also a
moment where um ugs so something like, hey, you know
all the like posters and lunch boxes and stuffed animals
that have our faces on them, have we ever seen

(40:07):
any money from that? And Daffy's like, not a cent,
We're getting screwed. I was like, oh my gosh, but
I love the Warner Brothers, the asked tattoo. I did
not remember the asked tattoo shot and it really stuck
with me this time around. And like, even to get
into Looney Tunes Hell, you have to pass through a

(40:28):
Warner Brothers logo, so branded on top of branded, on
top of branded. It's like it is wild and it's
a commercial for University of North Carolina. Yeah yeah, I
watched them after every game and Michael's dad is like, wow,
that's a good school at the very beginning, So yeah,

(40:49):
good education their son. There are so many elements of
essentially on display in this but it's just like a
pure period of such flagrant spending and capitalism and like
glorifying that, uh in a way that the movie is
like I think that maybe that's what hits a little

(41:10):
different for me, Like looking back on it is most
movies that are really glorifying capitalism don't seem quite as
aware of it as this movie repeatedly references that it
is very aware that it is selling you something. And
they'll break the fourth wall to sell you something. They'll
have an ask tattoo to sell you something, and so
it's like everyone is so aware of what they're doing

(41:33):
because they're commercial directors. Like it's just I don't know,
it's fascinating. There's nothing else like it that's just popular
or long and has been so successful. Like I always
said that like Spam is like a black movie because
I feel like it does tap into that. Like hip
hop culture loves Luony too. It's like Jay Z wrote

(41:54):
a whole Bugs Bunny wrap and helped curate the soundtrack
for this movie, and like that is like it's everyone
loves it in that sense. But like I think like
the black community and like the hip hop community really
latched onto the aesthetics of this space. I like, I'll
see like Bugs, Bunny, Hoodies, Taz, like Daffy, Like those
characters are very much tied to that. And I think

(42:14):
that even by like just putting Michael Jordan in a
production of that just kind of shows how Michael Jordan's
the public figure had sort of been elevated to this
place of like success because I can't because even now
I'm like, you know, the next time they made this
kind of like crossover lud To movie, it was like
with like Brendan Fraser at the end of his career

(42:37):
and it didn't go well at all. Yeah, And it's
like and it's like, you really can't imagine someone besides
like a Beyonce with her now with her Disney stuff,
being like a black celebrity being attached to like such
a brand this popular, because like it's a risk for
Warner Brothers too to be like, yeah, we're gonna make
this a movie where like most of the people who
are actually people in this are like black people, and

(43:00):
like the black actors are hold most of the power
um and and influence, and like you were saying, Caitlin,
like that, Wayne Knight is completely his plot is completely
subservient and dependent on whatever it is Michael Jordan's is doing.
If Michael Jordan has dragged to hell by cartoons, Wayne
Night must go to help to rescue him, like yeah,

(43:23):
and then we've got like Bill Murray, who's just like,
can I be in the NBA too, Like that's his
whole thing. And then he's like, is it because I'm white?
And they're like and they like Larry is white. He's like,
Larry's not white, Larry is clear, funny the and and
even like Bill Murray seems to sort of be playing himself,

(43:47):
where like his whole persona is that I just show up.
I'm just around, I'm at your wedding, I'm at your house,
and so he's sort of like, I'm at space Jam.
I'm in the movie playing myself. Why I don't know.
So he's like also just doing Bill Murray. And doesn't
he also play himself in zombie Land. I feel like

(44:07):
there are several movies when he placed himself, but I'll
say he did a much better, like when her britend
Zombielane is a land where they're like they asked him, like,
do you regret anything? And he says, garshield him like
that's right because he knows Space dam is like up there.
It's like the top ten of what he's done. No
regrets truly, it is, so I mean, and and it's
it's good to have Bill Murray in the mix for
the green screen scenes too, because I feel like I

(44:29):
found out that the people who are playing the monstars
for for Michael Jordan to play against where people from
ground lengs. They just put groundlings people in green screen
suits and they're like run play basketball with Michael Jordan's
and then so like a bunch of improv heads from
the nineties were just running around like with Michael Jordan's.

(44:51):
This is just something that happened, which they were the
stand ins for the Looney Tunes, and then they hired
pro basketball players to be to like be the standards
for the month stars for the month Stars. Yeah, but
for for like Lola Bunny was like a groundling in
a green screen suit, and then Michael Jordan had to
be like, wow, this girl has skills. Amen. Um, let's

(45:15):
take a quick break, a quick time out, and then
we will be right back and we're back. Uh. And
we had just mentioned Lola Bunny, which is a good
transition to talk about like the weird place that Lola
occupies is like the token chick who's like invented to

(45:40):
be the new token Lily Tune chick. And how like
as someone who's always really attached and loved that character.
I'm really interested to see what you guys have to
have to say about her, because I I'm very well
and dear to her. Oh and I was I mentioned.
I want to say this. So the biggest reason why

(46:00):
I love Lola, besides all the things that I think
are like you know it can be problematic about her,
is that there is something about seeing the only other
good player on this basketball team is a female character.
Because the w n b A had just formed in
this movie came out and they wouldn't play another game
until next year the year after this, and like you

(46:24):
get the scene with like Charles Barkley like going up
against those women and they like dominate him and they're like,
you're a scrub, get out of here. And like Lola
is like the most competent player on the team. But
yet whenever I read like critiques of her, they're always
like she's too sexy, and I just don't know. I

(46:47):
guess it's because I don't really look at her and
sexualized her instantly that I always was like, is that
really like a problem with like her? Or is it
just like that a lot of men of that age
will just asside sex, two boobs, and then it's just
like Okay, we're going to go from there. But I
would love to hear what you guys think about it,
because I know it's like one of those hashtag. I

(47:11):
am also very attached to Lola because it's like and
it's weird because I feel like, in like rewatching it
for this recording, I'm realizing that I projected things onto
Lola that maybe weren't actually there because she's not she's
she's on screen for a total of five minutes. She
doesn't come in until almost forty minutes into the movie.

(47:32):
So I think that I like, because she is like
the female character who is active, I projected so much
onto her that like is sort of there, but also
kind of isn't where I view her to be like
really important in this moment where like you're saying princess,
Like women's athletics are actually being televised at this point

(47:54):
and they're actually like being spotlighted, but there's still a
lot of like there was like a controversy see around
this time where when like men were narrating stuff going narrating.
I don't know how sports worket, but likeinggging during the Olympics,
like they would only refer to women just using their

(48:16):
first names and kind of infantilizing them and commenting on
their bodies all the time. So it was like women
were actually being shown, but they still weren't being treated
with respect. And it feels like Lola kind of exists
in that same space where she is like a gifted
basketball player. She knows this, she is active and like

(48:37):
asserting this for herself, but she's still presented so sexually,
and I don't like it's hard because it's like that's
not her fault. It fucks with my head, right because
it's like, this is a female character who is created
by five hundred men and and conceived for this movie.

(48:59):
She did not exist in Loney Tunes Cannon prior to
this movie. She was created to be on this basketball
team so anything. So this is like there's no prior
cannon for her, So she's very much a product of
this exact time. And I do feel like I like,
really I watched her introduction scene like four or five

(49:19):
times just to just to catch everything, and I don't know,
I feel like there are it has a lot of
like nineties nineties like feminism about it. Because I feel
like she is saying one thing and then like she's
doing another thing where she's like there's that moment where

(49:39):
she walks in and she's like, I wanna try out
for the basketball team. Look what I can do. But
then the way that she's animated is like she's moving
in a way to like titilate other characters. It's just
so it's really confusing. You can tell that they're very
much pulling from Jessica rabbit um to like you know,

(50:00):
with this movie format. I don't I love her so much.
I love her so hard. Lola Bunny is the Megan
Fox of Looney Tunes to me, because there's an element
of like it's like the thing of like framing versus action. Yeah,
and then at the same time I think of, like,
you know what the thing that buzz means. I remember

(50:20):
one reviewer kept on like she's got bunny boobs, and
I just kept thinking, like, why are you guys so
weird about sexy female animals. I don't understand it because, like,
like as someone who like I remember watching like the
Lion King to Simba's Prime thing, and like Covu is
kind of hot for like a lion, but I don't
like sexualize him. Like in Gargoyles you have Goliath who

(50:44):
was like a male anthropomorphic lizard person in a loincloth,
but that doesn't distract you from like all the other
things that that character does. It's like, obviously a hottie,
but like here to do gargoyle things. And the thing
about I think you hit on so well is that
she is going to let that girl power like don't

(51:04):
call me doll thing, but she also has to be
an object of the lust for bugs, which is weird
because you can tell her. She's like, oh, you're cute,
but you called me a name that I don't like,
so I have to like disrespect you to your face.
And then he's like, I'm into it, which makes me
respect bugs a little bit. But it is that, but

(51:25):
it is weird because then later on she's the only
character you see not get injured on screen. Yes, okay, yeah,
which bothers me more than her being rescued. But yeah.
The way that cartoon violence is dealt with in this
movie and the way that the female characters are designed.
We've talked about this with animated movies before, where it's
like the way that male identified cartoons can be designed

(51:49):
almost in any way, and they can look super goofy,
or they can be really tall, really short. There's any
amount of body diversity that can exist within male coded cartoons,
but when it's a female coded cartoon, that is not
the case. It looks like a sexualized human woman period.
And the violence is much the same. Like she's she's

(52:09):
not squished in the way, like she's not treated the
same rules of gravity don't apply to her. It's there's
really nothing. She's not looney. It's a matter of like, yeah,
like the same rules don't apply to her. I actually, okay,
I kind of want to like take the few beats
that she has in this movie, just sort of like
beat by beat examine them because, like you said, Jamie,

(52:30):
she shows up in the movie about forty minutes in
for the first time because they're all the liney tunes
are in the plot. Yeah, there's not so much exposition
before this. They're in a gym preparing for the game,
like they're all playing. They're all proving to be very
bad at basketball, and Michael Jordan's says, has anyone around
here played basketball before? And then lolad Bunny shows up

(52:53):
and she says, I have bugs Bunny is immediately attracted
to her. He has like hearts in his eyes. I
have a lot to say about that too, because bugs
Bunny is not like a hyper like sexual creature history right, like,
but bugs Bunny wasn't like testosterone like super hetero over

(53:13):
masculine eyes before this movie. It's just so anyways, sorry right, So,
So he's patronizing in sexist to her because he says
something like I want to play a little one on
one doll, basically being like, want to go fuck me
right now, please doll, please doll. And she's like, I'm
about to just dominate your ass, right yes for the culture,

(53:38):
because yeah, she's infuriated by this suggestion of his and
her like you know, fire springs up in her eyes. Well,
she says she's infuriated, but then the way she's framed
implies that she is not infuriated. It's so confusing. It
is like Megan Fox is the perfect comparison of like,
like on paper, what mackay of Banks says is very

(54:02):
oh cool, this is a motivated female character, but then
the way you see her doesn't back that up. It's
so confusing. There's like an identical moment in the first
Transformers movie where like her sexist boyfriend, Megan Fox's sexist
boyfriend says something like get in the car, a little bunny.
I think he calls her a bunny, and then she says, like,
you can't tell you how much I'm not your little bunny.

(54:25):
So maybe a reference to Space Jam No, but you know,
Transformers and Space Jam Alike proceed to really over sexualize
her the rest of the time, and you know there's
a we can talk about her character design more, but
um back to back to the story beats. So she
dominates him in basketball, proves to be the only good

(54:48):
tune player. She leaves bugs says, oh, she's obviously nuts
about me, and then Michael Jordan's, on the other hand,
is like, that girl's got some skills and recognizing a
woman's talent. Wow, that girl has skills, right, that's find
that second incredible oscar skills. So she's only on screen

(55:12):
in this scene for probably like twenty seconds, and then
Tweetie Bird also says she's hot and also tweet doesn't
have sex. Tweet doesn't believe in sex. Please. I was
so disgusted Why that I was like me is a
sexless character. You're just like, why is Tweetie horny? I
didn't like a sexual icon. Tweet Bird did not need
to be dragged into this, like just like just like

(55:35):
let him be, let be whatever. That is of all
the weird things that happened in that scene, that is
the worst part for me is tweety Bird going, WHOA,
she is hot. You're like, tweets this is I friend
better from you? I thought you were an ally so

(55:58):
then um as I think Jamie, it was you who
mentioned that she off screen gets a spot on the
basketball team. We don't see this. This has never made
clear that she like officially makes the team, because the
focus of the scene quickly shifts back to you know,
bugs bunny sexual attraction to her, rather than her basketball skills.
Although I do feel like, in an inadvertent way, I

(56:21):
will give the movie a little credit by saying, you know,
she has to be infinitely more skilled to be on
the team than her male counterparts who do not know
how to play basketball at all. But that falls into
the there's this trope and I don't know what it's called,
but it's basically when any narrative will have one main

(56:45):
female character. She's surrounded by less only other men. What
is it principle? Yes, yes, So she's shown to be
super competent. She is usually very conventionally attractive um but
ultimately never gets to do that much except you know,
maybe have a few kick ass cool lady moments and

(57:07):
then the rest of the movie will be about someone else.
Like she falls squarely into that for me, And that's
even in that Like I feel like there's a million
versions of the like Lola Bunny entrance moment when she
you know, like bugs Bunny is clearly not expecting her
to be good at basketball, and then every you know,

(57:27):
like a man on the court has to be like
whoa she did thing like which happens all. I feel
like it's most common in like action movies, where it's
like what that mixed we need article we can't stop
sighting for five years, where it's like I am a
woman and I kick, and then when when she kicks,
everyone goes, oh my god, she made a kick, And

(57:49):
I guess she hangs out with us now because she
made a kick. But mostly she'll just be you know,
a love interest. Yes, but she's a really good basketball player.
I know, and it a weird thing because like, when
I think about the mostly male critics I've heard, like
SKay Little, They'll be like, she's just an excessive character
that like doesn't fit into the movie. And I'm like,

(58:11):
she's on screen for five minutes, yet you have whole
think pieces about how she ruined space jams for you,
or like how she ruined Bugs Bunny. And it's like,
I think it's fair to critique, as Jamie points out,
like how they use Lola to sexualize bugs in the
way it like I think he only had one other
girlfriend before, named Honey Bunny, who basically just looks like

(58:33):
really like Bugs Bunny but in drag. But like, overall,
he's always like paying the seductress or something like it.
In his own self is like a wacky character. And
the only way they knew how to introduce a female
character was to be like, well, she has to date somebody, um,
And so you have this catch money two where like
you can't spend a lot of time on this character
that no one came to see, but you have to

(58:55):
do enough to establish their presence. And because they have
chosen to make Lola the girl friend, they have to
spend one of her five minutes of fame in having
a scene in which she gets rescued by bugs, which
wouldn't even bother me as much because we'll get to
in a second, it wouldn't even bother me as much

(59:16):
if she had a wacky moment anywhere in between that, right, yeah,
where it's like she is set up in this huge
way where you hope that you're going to get some
sort of b plot with her that is not the
love story, but she doesn't get that. You know, most
of the things that happened with her seemed to happen

(59:36):
off screen. And then yeah, you get this big moment
at the end where she has to be rescued by bugs.
That was the moment where I realized, I'm like, oh,
the rules of gravity that apply to the Looney Tunes
are not extended to her for some reason. And then
she has to go over to Bugs and say, you're
the nicest guy I've ever met, and now I give
you the kiss that you've earned by being squished, and

(59:59):
then she kisses him, and it's it's just like, yeah,
she deserved a better landing point than that, because we
I do appreciate that at very least you get to
see her like be very skilled. She contributes a lot
to the game. She's like a big reason of why
they catch up. She's like the second best player in
the team after Michael Jordan's. Maybe she's even better than

(01:00:21):
Michael Jordan's, right, I mean she can do she could
jump much higher than him because she is a bunny.
But you're right, especially because we established it, like they
don't hurt for a long time, so it's not as
if her getting squished would matter because she's gonna be
fine because she's a cartoon character. And like that's and

(01:00:41):
that's the like, there's a lot of things that I
don't really have issues with with Lola, but that is
the that is literally the only thing that I hate
about how her characters can see is like, and even
the rescuing, I don't I wouldn't mind, because I don't
think that being rescued one time inherently invalidates like a
female character's agency. But it's like it's because there is

(01:01:02):
nothing else that shows that she has the same versatility
of because they harmed the grandma, they harmed the grandma. Oh,
we have no issue harming older women. Yeah, And like
you know, the which was in there that she would
absolutely get her ask kick. But it's like Lola's like
the hottie, so she can't even like have like a
weird uh boob like clamp like Jessica Rabbit did in

(01:01:25):
that one thing. It's like it's like nope. And even
the way she's like introduced in the game small forwards
standing at a scintillating three ft two like they're just
like a heart throb of the hoops. I like, I
want to give the movie credit and be like they're
commenting on how commentators treat female athletes, but absolutely, there's
no way that's the truth. That's how people were commenting

(01:01:47):
on female athletes at this time. And the same thing
with her. I mean, granted iconic. Did I google Lola
Bunny crop top just to see if they're so available
in my area today? Yes, But her uniform is, let's say,
perhaps different from everyone else's, and like the reasons are
and and it's it is like that thing where I'm like,

(01:02:08):
I love the uniform, I want it, but it's there
for a very specific reason. I like a lot of
like nineties female heroes that we were kind of brought
up with. There's some real, like good at the core,
and then the way the plot treats this character is

(01:02:28):
generally not fair. I don't blame like Lola Bunny for
any way that she's treated. It's the characters around her
and the way that the story treats her that is
my issue. And it's what I was looking up because
this is I mean, I feel like, you know, creating
a new Cannon Looney Tunes character is a huge opportunity.

(01:02:50):
They have existed since the nineteen thirties, Like this is
like over sixty years into a very you know the
Looney Tunes have I mean, we can brush on it,
but a very sordid history. Uh. And and there's you know,
there's like this famous these famous eleven racist Looney Tune
cartoons that have been buried. But then they were like,
we're going to release it on DVD and then everyone

(01:03:11):
was like, don't do that, and I said, okay, Uh,
But the Looney Tunes have this whole like history going
back all this time, So introducing a new character is
a huge opportunity to make a statement and like do
something new and different, and it doesn't really go that far,
especially when like the most recognizable and familiar Looney Tuns

(01:03:33):
characters are all male. H there aren't many female leaning
Tuns period, like I think. I think even with Tiny
Tunes when they had that show, they only had like
I think one or two female characters, and it was
like a female elm or Flood type and then like
another like proto Lola Bunny type. It goes back to
like those Anita Sarkisian videos from ten years ago, where

(01:03:56):
it's like just making the MSS version of an existing
male character throw a bow on her head and now
she's now we have another character, and which was like, uh,
you know, Bugs Bunny's original girlfriend. At least Lola Bunny
is an original character. And then I did a little
bit of reason because I was like, what is Lola

(01:04:16):
done since Space Jam? This is a topic that I've
excited to get into because I have like I'm very so,
I'm very new to this. I did not know a
ton about the second iteration of Lola Bunny, but it
is fascinating and very telling. Where So she is brought
back in in a big way for the Loony Tune Show.

(01:04:38):
This time she's voiced by Kristen Wigg and her character
is somehow stripped of agency significantly significant. Yeah, where I'll
just read off her character description as opposed to her
personality and space Jam. She has portrayed as a scatter brained, indecisive,
gabby young rabbit who tends to obsess over bugs, whom

(01:04:59):
she referred to as bun Bunny. She is very dedicated
to achieving goals, but oftentime tends to forget what she
was doing. Like it's just she is portrayed as being
obsessed with bugs and he has no interest in her
and he tells her to go away all the time.
It's like what, I can't even tell you how this
infuriated me because I would see male critics that hated

(01:05:21):
Lola Bunny and Space h and be like the Litte
Tune Show fixed Lola. They finally made her Louie, and
so I went to go And this is why I
don't trust people who don't like Lola for like that
our men sometimes, because I'm just like, I can't trust
you because your opinions are whack. Because then I go
to like wash the show, and I'm excide, I'm like, okay, Lola,
and then she's like obsessed with bugs Bunny, and so
I was like, so was this the problem that you
had with Lola that like she's the one who doesn't

(01:05:44):
really care about bugs until like he does something for
her that should make her care, because you guys seem
to be totally fine with her just being like completely
obsessive with him and like, oh, well, now she's wacky.
I hated it, and I hated how I saw some
people like finally because for me, in between that period,
there were these comics with Lola Bunny where she was

(01:06:08):
like a pizza delivery girl, which is like really weird,
but I have one of them somewhere, and she got
to be basically like a mischievous like bunny. He was
trying to trick people, like I think she delivered some
pizzas and they don't want to tip her, and she
was like, oh, I want to torture you until you
tip me. And I'm just like worker rights, yes, tipier

(01:06:30):
delivery person. But like I was like, okay, So when
they bring back Lola, that's how she's gonna be. That
she's gonna be like an actually demoded Yeah, she's gonna
be like a zany character that like is on the
level of bugs. And then they just made her an
obsessive girlfriend who like broke down bugs until he liked her.
And I'm like, that's the kind of female that's usually

(01:06:51):
like the opposite of the smurfet. There's always like the
smurfet character that everyone wants to date, and then like
the loser girl usually as pigtails that like really wants
to a league character and they're like, not you, childhood friend,
I want the other one. And I was just like,
this is not how you were vamp a character that
was kind of very male gazy. This is not the

(01:07:13):
way to do it. It's it is, I mean, and
it speaks to a lot of I mean issues at large,
but also specifically an animation where it is just it
is still so siss had white male dominated in so
many ways that it and it has improved over time,
but the fact that like sixteen years after this movie

(01:07:34):
came out, that this character could somehow be forced backwards
speaks to how there has not been a ton of
progress in the animation space of how like really any
non siss Had white Meryl coded character is treated, and
it has possibly slid backwards in a lot of ways.

(01:07:55):
I was so disappointed to learn that I've never seen
that twelve Looney Tunes iteration. Well, I would argue that
that evolution of her character that we see over the
years is hinted at by the end of Space Jam.
And again, this is not a critique of her character
so much. It is, as it is a critique of
how the movie frames and treats her. But in the game,

(01:08:19):
we don't see her play that much because there's you know,
they have to give screen time to all the Looney
Tunes and see all the little things that they get into.
But there will be a few cutaways to you know,
her dribbling or making shots and stuff. And then there's
one moment in particular where one of the month stars
is like, try to get by me, doll, and then
she does get past him using her basketball skills, and

(01:08:41):
she scores, and then she says, don't ever call me doll,
which is the same exact thing that you know, bugs
Bunny did to her, except she's about to fall in
love with him, because the next thing that happens is
like the he saves her, and then she's so enamored
by being rescued and she's like, that's the nicest thing
that ever then anyone's ever done for me, she kisses him,

(01:09:03):
and then a little bit later in the movie, he surprised,
he surprised, kisses her, but she's all like, hubba, hubba,
I'm your girlfriend now, yeah, I mean for me, that's
like es feminism is just catchphrase. Feminism is just repeating
an aphorism that sounds empowering but actually isn't and then

(01:09:23):
going and then kissing the male lead and going to
the next scene. Well right, but that like, even over
the course of those few scenes, like it feels to
me like her character gets demoted because like again the
focus shifts away from her basketball skills to being rescued
by a male character kissing him. He's kissing her. The
focus shifts to like their romance, and that's the last

(01:09:47):
we see of her because even to do it, like
my it is weird because I'm like, I also really
like them together, because because i feel like I'm just
a child and I'm just like they're cute. But I
do like the one part in between that is like
after she liked dunks on the monster, guy Buzz comes
up to her and it's like nice shot and they
high five, and I'm just like and I'm just like
and I'm just like, and that is the moment where

(01:10:09):
he respects women and then I waste But in between
he was like, all right, I read bell hooks in
between what happened, and I recognized that I respect you.
And it's like so funny. It is like it's it's

(01:10:30):
so nineties in the way it addresses like progress of yeah,
very bare minimum and very catchphrasy, and I think it
also says a lot and contextualizes Lola a lot when
you're also considering that this movie is of commercial and
not you know, necessary. I mean there it is very artful.

(01:10:52):
It is there's a lot of amazing art involved, but
it was you know, art wasn't the top priority in
the production of this movie. It was it was marketing.
And so I feel like it says a lot about
the marketing of this time too, in the way that
Lola is presented. Maybe if you're making an art house
bugs bunny film, which god willing I would love to see,

(01:11:12):
but like you know, Lola is created from character designed
to character choices to every way she's presented is marketing,
and so this also speaks to like what needed to
appear on merchandise to sell at this time, and you
know it was titties, it was rabbitty. You know, they

(01:11:36):
did the thing and it's weird because it's too. The
other thing I think is interesting is that like I
found that, like when I would talk to my female
friends at that age group that loved Lola, they just
they loved her because she was a girl and they
liked seeing a girl and environment. And I like, as
much as I totally agree about like we should absolutely
critique girl power feminism because it was like marketed so
have like I like how this feminism is now, it's

(01:11:58):
like it's just very easy. People will be like empowerment
and it's like, yes, i'll give you money now. But
I think what was always really telling for me, like
even within that realm of critique, that the boys only
ever saw her as sexual that I knew, and the
girls were like, I like having a cool girl that

(01:12:18):
plays basketball in this movie and her being hot was
just kind of like, oh, well, female characters are supposed
to be hot in animation. And I think it's kind
of that Cash twenty two because now as an adult,
I'm sitting here like I really like this character. I
wish she hadn't been Michaeladin Transformers, where like she's clearly
supposed to be empowered, and I don't even like, and

(01:12:39):
I always say this as a black feminist, I don't
care that she's a love interest of bugs or that
like that's part of her character, because it's like, you know,
Daisy is a Daisy is also a feminist queen, and
she's often with Daffy. But I think that it's the
fact that they clearly were are afraid to go all

(01:13:02):
out with her character. They were clearly afraid to like
make her be ugly, and they also didn't want to
give her too much screen time because she's also hashtag
like new kid on the block. So it's like you
don't want to take away too much attention from like
the true star of this movie, Daffy Duck, who is
who remains unmatched. He has the best bars um. But

(01:13:24):
it's like it puts it puts us in a place
where like we have two extra critique things that were
always supposed to be for us, but we're like made
by a committee of like men, like what do what
do girls want? And how can we just make boys tolerated?
And then you get Lola Money, a super competent female
athlete who also can be like a love interest. But

(01:13:46):
I think is also an interesting thing in the context
of like female sports, because female athletes are so hyper
masculinized in real life compared to like Lolo, who is
like hyper sexualized, and it's it's weird, it's not anything,
but it's just interesting for me to see. But then
you still have to make sure that we have a
slow wet of her going like to the side so
that you can see that she's got like bunny titties

(01:14:09):
and like bunny and which cat facts is about to
pay off. Finally, after all these years, if we la
Bunny was animated to be and designed to be anatomically correct,
she would have six ten titties. That crop top would
have been lit. That would have been thrilling if they

(01:14:31):
were like we have this ten titty rabbit entering and
she's amazing at basketball. I mean, can you imagine how
like how thrilling it would have been to be like
this rabbit is not just a gifted basketball player, she
has ten rabbit titties, like she what can't she do?

(01:14:52):
I Well, here's some some thoughts from Space Jam animation
director Tony her Phone said that Lolo was intended originally
to be more of a tomboy, but the production team
feared that she would appear to masculine, so the animators
emphasized her feminine attributes. Quote unquote, I think we're in

(01:15:16):
that quote. The use of the word tomboy is very loaded.
I feel like when men in the nineties use the
word tomboy, it the definition is a little skewed and
there's like a little bit of subtext to it, and
it has more to do with like, by tomboy, we
mean not sexualized, like as opposed to the actual like

(01:15:39):
use of the word in the ninety nineties. They're like,
she would have looked like Tatum O'Neil instead of like,
you know, kimpossible. They were like, yeah, we're gonna give
her like a baseball cap that goes backwards. You know,
she's going to have like a little like a like
a like a band aid across her eye, just like
the ham hardcore and then going at that. We we've

(01:16:02):
talked about it a little bit, but just it is
kind of frustrating where it seems like the nineties treatment
on Bugs Bunny is also frustrating to me because bugs
Bunny is I think kind of was, in retrospect considered
to be at certain points pretty like progressive character in

(01:16:23):
terms of like a cartoon character that played around with
gender quite a bit and was not disempowered for playing
around with gender, And so there was like there's a
number of classic Bugs Bunny cartoons where he's in drag
and he's basically a very empowered character in drag. He
is not the butt of a joke. He is like
using it like just because and he looks hot and

(01:16:46):
it's exciting, and there's like that whole Waynes World quote
of like were you ever like titilated? But like what
is the what is the quote? I think it's did
you find Bugs Bunny attractive? When he put on a
dress and played a girl bunny? Like it was iconic
that this character played around with gender. It even gets
mentioned in um the documentary disclosure about like how trans

(01:17:09):
people saw that representation on screen and to some degree
and in some cases like felt empowered by that. And
so for the like relaunch a Bugs Bunny to be
the opposite of that and to be so intensely heterosexual
coded to the point where he like is like kind

(01:17:32):
of selling that character out in a kind of bummer
way where it's like there's already so much established cannon
that this is like a gender nonconforming character. And then
they again kind of like rolled that back, much like
they did with Lola Bunny later on, like it would
have been so much fun if they had done like
a Jesse James thing from Pokemon, and like, I know,

(01:17:55):
that's like another new lay tune show where Lola is
more like Bugs in terms that she's more of a
mischievous character than like boy crazy. Look. Yeah, so I'm
gonna go watch that later. And it's like the same
voice actress from is that like the HBO Max like
the New Ones? I think, so it looks that's what
it looks like. Or let me, I have little Wikipedia's

(01:18:16):
in front of me, so I don't know what I'm like,
I don't know it came out. Oh yeah, it came
out from like UM twenty. I'd never heard of it. Um.
But apparently she's a lot more like she has more
tune qualities and she's more designed to be like she's
more boxing and design, so she looks more like a
tune UM, but she's got more of the autonomy and

(01:18:37):
agency she had from space jam does she have ten titties? Though?
She didn't have ten titties though, but they all But
it was funny because I was like, when I was
watching it, I was thinking, this is the first time
I've ever seen Bugs and Daffy were pants, Like they're
just out to the out and about um, but this
time they had to wear pants. But I would love

(01:19:00):
them to have Lolo play with gender too, Like it'd
be so cool if they went on on a date
but both in drag Warner Brothers hire me, I'm giving
you free ideas for space. But yeah, I I agree.
And I think it's also I think the thing about
bugs in that iteration what I've kind of noticed from
what I think a lot of like sis men feel

(01:19:21):
about bugs that they like that he's like he's like
an ultimate male type, you know, like he's smart, he's
clevering it a situation like and I think that a
lot of people, a lot of dudes I saw, were like,
there's no way that bugs would be like whipped by
some girl. And I'm just like, I don't know why
you care so much, dude, Like I mean, like I don't,

(01:19:43):
I just it's so it's but I also agree it's
weird that they like picked Bugs to be the one
to have a girlfriend, when Daffy is thirsty every day
and when that boy love to have a sip of water,
Daffy was like canonically the horny ist, and so like,

(01:20:04):
I don't know, yeah, bringing Daphne Duck more free material? Right,
all this free material? Or just stop like girlifying existing
male characters and create a female character for once. But
that is sometimes too much to ask, and so I'll
stop asking, We'll just start creating. There's also, I mean,

(01:20:26):
there are It is very worth mentioning that there are
several women appearing in the live action section of the
Space Jam. Michael Jordan has a his wife played by
Teresa Randall. He has a his mother, and he has
his daughter. So they all appear, and do we meet

(01:20:49):
his mother or we we meet someone's mother? I think,
I think, I think that woman is like their housekeeper.
I thought that she was assumed that she was his mother.
Oh that's on me, Okay, I know she's the one
who's like making dinner for them as they're getting home. Yeah, yeah,
I also assume that was like a housekeeper. But I
they don't specify. They don't make it clear. So that's yeah,

(01:21:10):
I guess we just really don't get to look into
what's going on there. But there are there are a
few female characters that that are mostly at the beginning
of the movie with Michael Jordan's and then they come
they come back at the end. I mean, I wish
that they had gotten more screen time. They're based on
obviously like Michael Jordan's real family, uh and and people
in his life, but they're not given much to do

(01:21:33):
in this case too much to another thing that's too
much to us, because Michael Jordan's dragged to hell. Right. Um.
There's also that scene where after the NBA players have
lost their talent, they are being sort of like medically
and psychologically evaluated. Um. And there's a scene where Charles
Barkley goes to play basketball with a bunch of women

(01:21:56):
and um because and he plays against them and he
doesn't have his talent anymore, so he can't play. They
like embarrass him on the court, that kind of thing.
And later when he's talking to it, right, I like it.
But then when he's talking to like a psychologist later
he says something like and then this girl five foot,

(01:22:19):
nothing blocked my shot. And the whole implication that scene
was even a bunch of girls could beat Charles Barkley.
So it's still it's sexist, is what is happening there?
I agree, I mean I was, I guess reading that
scene a little generously of him saying like, I'm one
of the best basketball players in the world. Why did
a bunch of twelve year old beat me? But I

(01:22:39):
do agree that there is like a gendered element to
it as well. It is very satisfying to see them
beat him at basketball, and I think it's I think
I thought about that the same way you did, Jamie,
because they show they show them being very vigorous players
and like a little bit that you see before Charles Barkley,
like when he's watching them, they're like really like going
at it, and I'm like, oh, so these are like

(01:23:00):
good street ballers, you know. And I definitely thought he
was just like she's so tiny, She's so small, Like
it's I understand. And then the psychologist is talking to
Patrick Ewing and he's like, are you having trouble performing
anywhere else in your life? Basically like does your dick
still work? And which is like I'm like, it's like

(01:23:20):
the psychiatrist relaxed. But then also Patrick Ewing was like, um, yes,
my dick works. It's like no, yeah, that's a very
different movie. And he's like, I would actually like to
talk to a doctor about that. Thank you. Like, And
there's a part where Charles Barkley he's praying. He's like,

(01:23:41):
I'll never sleep with Madonna. I'll never go out with
Madonna again, and which is how I learned that that
even happened. I was like what, And Moby's like, Muggsy's like,
you think I'm trying to dispect my mama And he's like,
I didn't say that, you did. He's like, but I
love my mama. It's such a weird sequence. Like the

(01:24:03):
sports side is very I mean in in the real
and the animated world, the sports world is hyper masculine
and and and like not very attempting to question that.
And I feel like it's very of its time in
that way, where like the masculinity of professional sports is
not really called into question in any way. Besides Lola

(01:24:24):
Bunny in this movie, which I was not extremely surprised by.
I honestly wasn't like me because it's seen it, and
also because it's I wasn't expecting this movie to uh
challenge that very much, especially because it's a movie that
is like starring Michael Jordan, who was like so of

(01:24:45):
this like hyper masculine, hyper disciplined sports moment and so
well that brings me to talking about the monsters, and
there is like a masculinity component to it. But I
also can't help but feel and and Princess tell me
your thoughts on this. But the monsters are coded black, right,

(01:25:09):
they definitely get more like stereotypical urban aesthetics and like
how their mouths are designed, like they get the kind
of like, um, I always call them the like minstrel
outline of when you like hyper like line the lips
to make them look darker, and like some of them
start using kind of a a V like language, except

(01:25:31):
for the one that stole the talent from a white guy,
who just becomes like adobe white dude, um, like the
Charles Barkley one. Like they all like you heard the
Dream Team where the Mean Team was like like who
you guys didn't sound like that before you have this talent? Yeah,
So they definitely urbanized them because I think that they

(01:25:53):
like the audience can like understand the codification of that
of like, now they're dangerous because before they were like
nebbish and tiny, but now they're like big urban street ballers.
So now we've got to be afraid. And I also
become kind of hot not gonna like that green one.
I was like, he's kind of cute and that's my favorite.

(01:26:15):
And I was like, that's a good shade of green
on him. I was like, I was in for it,
but I'm trash, so which it is. I mean, like
and and this is because we're talking about space jam primarily,
like I won't get too into this, but given the
history of Looney Tunes and race, I mean, it goes
back to the early nineteen thirties, so for our listeners,

(01:26:37):
feel free to look it up and and do the
math on how they've treated. But there's been a number
of deeply racist Looney Tunes cartoons that have been buried,
and so for you know, just seeing the evolution there
in character design and then seeing that early Looney Tunes
animators like Chuck Jones, who I get is like, oh,

(01:26:58):
I guess along with tech savery like the iconic Looney
Tunes guy hated Space Jam and how a lot of
issues with it. It speaks to the I guess, I
guess just like the slow update of a franchise, and
like calls into question, is it possible to effectively update
a franchise that was started so long ago? And like

(01:27:20):
what are the I guess stumbling blocks in attempting to
do that? And I feel like some of those are
kind of really pushed against in in Space Jam. And
it's also interesting because like as you kind of touch
on like lue Tune's design, just like making Mouse is
like rooted in minstrelsy. So you basically have these two
kind of like two kinds of black codifications combating each other,

(01:27:43):
featuring like the biggest black athlete at the time featuring
in it. And it's this weird hodgepodge of like how
at that time, at that time, like in the nineties
kind of like the pinnacle of like black urban cool
really being elevated in like mainstream pop culture, which is
why I think those choices were made. And like why

(01:28:05):
Bugs Bunny himself is so popular in so many different
like places, is because he also can adapt that coolness
because like Mickey Mouse was never cool, but like Bugs
Bunny very much has. Yeah, but Bugs always had like
a swagger about him, and I feel that that comes
from them very much emulating the popular culture and vibe

(01:28:28):
of an era, and that usually is a black vibe,
you know, and even like even with the drag culture,
like you know, a lot of that comes from like
black queer environments and like so I think even in
Space Jam they can't help but like, all right, well
they're not going to be scary if they're not a
little bit black coated. Yeah, ke Um, I wanted to

(01:28:52):
bring up um. Wayne Knight's character is constantly fat shamed.
Basically every moment that he's on screen, He's is made
to seem just like this bumbling, smelly, clumsy like Douf
the giant fart joke is like, even as a kid,
I find it uncomfortable. I was like, this is weird

(01:29:12):
and this is even like a little like I mean,
this is a little bit as side comment, but the
fact that even somehow Wayne Knight is subject to the
same gravity laws is cartoons and still Litla Bunny isn't
is very straight Like he could be squished, Yeah, he
could be squished, but Lola Bunny can't be squished, Michael
Jordan gets turned into a basketball and bounced around by

(01:29:35):
the monstars, but Lola Bunny can't. Like she's just too
delicate and too feminine to have any sort of cartoon
I'm not that I'm advocating for like violence to be
done against her, but like that's the whole thing about
Looney Tunes. It's cartoon violence and get physics is inherent
to Looney Tunes. And they don't feature any women, right,

(01:29:57):
And it's like she's an athlete, like she would be
used to getting hurt, and i mean, like again, it's
like it's like they have get it, you know, they
have for like we need to have a care at
female cattery that does the thing. But then they forget
like female characters trained, they get hurt, they get more injuries.
Like Lola Bunny was a cheerleader, she would have gotten more,
you know, injuries than any of these basketball players because

(01:30:18):
chilian is the most dangerous sport around. And it's like
it's it's like it's so frustrating because like and you're
totally right about way Night, which is weird because it's
like Elmer Fudd is not skinny, Like there's so many
like fat characters and like differently kind of big is
right there. He even coming into the defense, he's just
like doing like you know, I'm just like dishonor. And

(01:30:42):
then I wanted to bring up something that you discussed,
Princess in a Merry suit piece that you wrote about
Space jam merch Care to talk about that? Yeah, So,
like I tend to only want to bude space jam
merchandise with low La on it, and so frequently she's
left out or she's like pictured not in costume, or

(01:31:04):
like she's like I remember like Forever twenty one was
having like a huge Space Jam culcution. I was like, yes,
I'm about to just have like you know, number ten
Lola Buddy crop tops all day. I was like, that
would be obvious to have for a site that is
mostly frequented by women and from folk and other people
who are from presenting, And yet everything was like Taz

(01:31:26):
Daffy Bugs, Michael Jordan's and I'm like, but the second
best player on the tum squad is Lola Bunny. So weird,
there's so little merged to the point where like I
was looking at this up merchandise that features her from
this era is like worth a lot of money because
they didn't make a lot of it, and those that
did became very you know, valued by certain types, myself included.

(01:31:50):
And like, there isn't a lot of merch of her
from like that era where she's like in her outfit,
and even now if you try to find like Lola
Bunny like pins or anything like that, they're all very
hyper sexualized and you really can't find anything. It's really
upsetting because I do genuinely love that character. I don't think.

(01:32:12):
I went to like some fan con and I had
someone draw like a little bit of fan art of her,
because I'm like, I want to be able to own
one piece of non sexy Lola Bunny fan art in
my lifetime. Um, But yeah, she doesn't get a lot
of merchandise. And even when even when she was in
other things like Baby Looney Tunes or Lunatics Unleaked, which

(01:32:34):
was like this weird futuristic show that featured like Lexi Bunny,
who was like the future version of Lola, there wasn't
a lot of merch for her there either, because just traditionally,
people don't make out of merch for girls when it
comes to those kind of toys and when you know, well,
only boys play with toys, didn't you know exactly? And

(01:32:54):
so like it doesn't surprisely, but it upsets me deeply
because I just really it was just like a really
frustrating double edged sword too, because we like it is
pretty clear that Lola Bunny was created to be merchandized,
and then for her to not be merchandise when she
was created to be merchandises, like, well, then why are
we doing this? Like if you're not going to merchandise her,

(01:33:18):
then why we're all those very specific decisions made. It's
just like it's very confusing that and like the picture
that you presented in the piece that you wrote had
it was like a glass, like a drinking glass that
had Lola Bunny off to the side in like plain clothes,
not in her uniform, even though she's the only Looney

(01:33:40):
Tune who's any good at basketball, Like, why would she
not be in uniform like front and center. It reminds
me of like when you get like Mulan merchandise and
she's never in her warrior outfit? Would she wears the
majority of the movie? Why do I have a long
haired Mulan doll. That's not what she looks like like
it's it's it's absurd And I don't even know why

(01:34:03):
they put her in that outfit because that's not an
iconic outfit her. You in aform is the iconic outfit
that she wears that Jamie herself even had to try
and like, where is it? I would wear it in
the house like it's a it's a look, and yet
they don't market that at all. Mm hmm. It's yeah,

(01:34:23):
it's so frustrated. Its like even today, when I went
on Etty and searched a little Bunny, I hesitate to
share with you the results I found because it was
mostly uh T shirts of yeah, a bugs bunny having
sex with a little bunny on a shirt, which was
not what I wanted. I was hoping more for just

(01:34:44):
a shirt, just a regular shirt with no sex happening
on it. Harder to find than you would think. Uh
so there's that. I lost that gud A little bit earlier,
I was when we were talking about Looney Tunes history.
I also wanted to quickly bring up a character who's
very majorly sidelined in this era of Looney Tunes and

(01:35:05):
has been off and on sidelines and regarded in a
number of ways, and that is Speedy Gonzalez is on
the team at different points. I don't know if you
ever really get to hear him speak at length at
all in this movie. But that's like another example of
Looney Tunes character who is built on racist stereotypes, who's like,

(01:35:29):
I guess whose significance has been kind of argued back
and forth over the years, because Speedy Gonzalez is a
character who has been reclaimed in many ways but also um,
you know, criticized rightfully so in many ways, to the
point where there was a feature film starring Speedy Gonzalez
in production as recently. And it's just with a franchise

(01:35:52):
that goes back this far, the process of claiming and
disclaiming a character goes back so much. And in the nineties,
is at this point speak Gonzalez? I think that they
were the franchise didn't know how to handle him or
what to do with him, so they were like, well,
he's here, but he's not speaking, so is that okay?
Like it's just such a bizarre moment for this franchise

(01:36:14):
in with the changes they choose to make and then
the things that are left over from fifty years ago
that they don't quite know what to do with, and
so they just sort of do nothing. Meanwhile, like the
like the date Raby Peppy Lap, you can still have
like two speaking it's like canceled Peppe. Canceled Peppe, Like

(01:36:40):
so why why? Yeah, the fact that he got a
line right after the Lola Bunny scene, You're just like
this is unjust rights, Like this is gross. I don't, yeah,
I don't. I hate him so much. It's just like
he's such an annoying character. Funny thing I heard is
that in France his dub voice is in Italian. Oh

(01:37:03):
that's funny. That's so funny. Shame They're like, we do
not claim Peppe. Yeah, he's not ours. We will not
stand for this slander. I love it, but I will
say after watching Knives Out Foghorn Leghorn, his voice was

(01:37:23):
so funny to be because all I could hear was
like Chris Evan's going like what is this c S
I KFC and I oh, good time. Parkhorn Leghorn, who.
I don't know if I've ever mentioned this on the
pod before, Probably we've it's existed long enough. But my

(01:37:46):
high school my first boyfriend ever. We broke up. He
broke up with me for the saxophone, and then years
later I saw him again and he was exactly the same,
but the one difference was that he had bicep tattoo
of foghorn leghorn, and that was the one different thing
about him, and that I have no update on him

(01:38:09):
since then. He got a fog horn leg horn tattoo. Um,
So you know, I guess still culturally relevant in the
last ten years. It was such a huge tattoo. I'll
never get over the shock of being like, oh, no,
one's expecting a full bicep the end. That's bonkers incredible. Well,

(01:38:32):
it sounds like a dodge a bullet by getting broken
up with. I was gonna say this, like, you don't
need that. I don't know. I didn't. It turns out
I didn't need that in my life. Um, but there
it is. Um. There's another Okay, we talked about this
on our Who Friend Roger Rabbit episode that's on the Matreon. Um.
But there's a moment and this is I feel like,

(01:38:53):
very common in specifically movies that combine live action and
animated stuff. But I think this is also just a
general animated trope where a male character will kiss another
male character and it's meant to be this like, ha ha,
isn't isn't it so funny and wacky that I'm kissing you?

(01:39:15):
But then the recipient of the kiss, while understandably is
not happy and it should be because it is a
surprise kiss that they did not consent to, is usually
instead played as like a queer phobic like, oh no,
I just got kissed by a man, But is it okay?
Because it's a cartoon and it's just like this weird

(01:39:36):
thing that happens in this movie when Bugs kisses Michael
Jordan's upon like immediately upon seeing him because he's like
if I wasn't real, could I do this? And then
just lays lays one on him. He's like I don't know,
and they're like, why why is this here? Yeah, it's weird.
I got of who from Roger Rabbit as soon as

(01:39:57):
I saw it again because I was just like, yeah,
they do that a lot, because even at the end
when uh, I forget the male character's name, but when
he kisses Roger back, it's supposed to be this moment
of like Roger's like what just happened. Like it's like
it's like, oh, that isn't fun. I shouldn't be surprised
kissing people. Um, but yeah, it's just it's a very

(01:40:19):
interesting thing that is so part of like that era
and like so part of like what people didn't really
understand about like that being a thing that you shouldn't do.
And it's only ever framed as doing a thing that
you shouldn't do when it's two men, you know, it's
never ever like it was like the same sex thing.
It's like surprise kiss like you know, or like it

(01:40:40):
was two women, it's like surprise kids, you know. But
like when it's two minutes, like yikes, because Bugs surprise
kisses Lola at the end and she's like habbah habba,
showing like and it's like, no, you didn't. You didn't
consent to that kiss. Does oh I have a question.
When Lola kisses Bugs Zach also count as a surprise

(01:41:01):
kills I feel like that could easily be classified as
a surprise kiss. Yes, because they're in the middle of
a basketball game. There's not killing basketball. You put that
romance on the on the side. Yeah, So just all
the kissing in this movie shouldn't have happened because it's

(01:41:22):
it's three surprise kisses in a row. I mean, the
thing is like, I have no that I like. I
there's a lot of ways to come at it, and
and we've almost been talking to for two hours, so
I won't go, which is longer than the movie. But
there is like I don't want to completely say that
Lola Bunny should be de sexualized, because I feel like
there is, Like Princess was saying earlier, there's a lot

(01:41:45):
of de sexualization of female athletes that is equally sexist,
and like, if you are an athletic fem you can't
be a sexual being as well, and that's an equally
unfair thing to have forced upon you. Of like total
if you are athletic, it's inherent that that is all
you can be. It sounds so complicated, but you just

(01:42:07):
need to strike the same balance that you would for
most male characters and that's all you would need to do. Um,
But this movie it doesn't quite do that. Yeah, I
mean it's not so much that I like if the
fact that she has written primarily to be a new
love interest of Bugs Bunny, like that is not I
don't love that, but the fact that they end up

(01:42:30):
in a romantic relationship together, like whatever. I'm fine with that,
Like if they like each other, if they admire each
other's basketball skills, whatever, fine. It's more that the nature
of the kissing, which is just like three non consensual kisses,
is what I take most issue with. But you know
that's still well. That brings me to a quote from

(01:42:51):
another Mary Sue piece from Maddie Myers entitled Hay Space Jam.
To give Lola Bunny the respect she'd serves this time,
says quote. The way she is in Lila Bunny I
was framed taught kid me a pretty depressing lesson about
what it takes to be accepted by a group of guys.
If you're lucky and if you're hot enough, maybe you'll

(01:43:14):
get to date one of them. Unfortunately, I know that's
a lesson that I internalized very early on in my life,
the idea that male male validation was the only thing
that really mattered as opposed to winning games and excelling
at my chosen hobbies. It's a lesson that took me
years to unlearn. Unquote. So that's kind of the whole
thing with with Lola Bunny again, like as a character,

(01:43:37):
isolating her character is like, she's a great character. A
lot of young girls saw her and looked up to
her and and found a lot of value in her
character rightfully, so like she was the only good basketball
player on the team aside from Michael Jordan's. But the
way that she is framed by the story, like the
story doesn't like her and and then she's her character

(01:43:59):
suffers as a result. So and I agree. I did
hear that for Space Jam two that they have brought
in some w NBA players, So I'm hoping that that means, yeah,
I was, I remember hearing something about that, So I'm
like hopefully. And Lebron James has been very good about
supporting female athletes, so I feel like he definitely wouldn't

(01:44:20):
want to produce a movie that was like token woman
in this era, Like I don't think. I think that absolutely.
If they don't do Lola right in Space Dam two,
it's gonna be like, it's gonna break my heart so bad,
like that'll be that'll be ruining my childhood. I wonder
if she'll get the Oh my gosh, I don't even

(01:44:43):
remember her name, which tells you how important this character is,
but the one female character in the Toy Story franchise
made her like yeah and to History Story four. She
I wonder if she'll if, like Lola Bunny will get
the bo peep in Toy Story for treatment. We'll find out,
I guess whenever that movie comes out. You can keep

(01:45:05):
the crop top. But I just want her to have
like some real shorts this time, like some like you know,
knee high, knee length. I think we need to, we
need to. We need her to have like knee length shorts,
knees top eight of them are exposed um them, we're

(01:45:27):
covered up at the top. I mean, yeah, I I
hope that the question mark um iteration of Lola Bunny
is you know. I I feel like at this point, yeah,
with with Lebron involved and with how far hopefully we
have come, since there will be more to see and

(01:45:49):
more for Lola to do and reclaim. And I mean
it is interesting this this uh, this franchise is like
entering it's ninetieth year and it still evolving, which is
pretty I mean, there's not a lot of franchises that
you can follow for that long and track growth. So
I'm excited to see what what she does next? Exactly?

(01:46:12):
And yet and somehow we managed to talk nearly two
hours about a seventy seven minute that is the that
is the power of space Jam, that it edited, that
it has capitalist messages, anti capitalist messages, it's pro union.
It's like weirdly to nineties girl power, but also reinforces
nineties sexism, all in just under ninety minutes. It's like,

(01:46:37):
it's they don't make them like that anymore. Well, it
does not. We set already does not pass the Bechdel
test to female characters don't interact at all. Well, his
wife and his daughter, his daughter and his daughter interact,
but it is not shockingly only about Michael Jordan's right, Yes,

(01:47:01):
I forgot about that, and yeah, the very brief moment
there um, and then I think, like his wife and
his housekeeper or his mother, We're not sure. Um. I
think also interact with each other, but we don't know.
Do we know any of their names? I don't. I
think like it is her name, Sheila. I feel like
they say her name once, but I don't remember. I think,

(01:47:23):
and I think they say the other woman's named too.
But it was funny because when that scene happened, I
was like, will this be the scene? And it's not.
But it's about food. But it's about food, and all
I could hear is women be cooking because she's making
because she's like making something with like collar greens and something.
And I'm just lating. That does sound good? Women be cooking?

(01:47:45):
It's yeah. Unfortunately, on the live action side, there's there's
not much happening for women, And on the animated side,
it's complicated. Are we are we at the nipples? Girl?
Are we there? Yeah? Ten rabbit nipples. I'm gonna give

(01:48:06):
this like a half nipple. Well, maybe I'll give it
one nipple for Lola Bunny. Is she very tokenized? Is
she hyper sexualized? Is any of that her fault? No?
But you know she's at the mercy of these four
male screenwriters, whoever the hell We've got a Leo, we've

(01:48:27):
got a Steve, A Timothy, and a herschel Um who
wrote this movie and had an opportunity to introduce an
interesting female loony tune character into the cannon, and they
did to some extent. Because Lola is awesome again if
you just isolate her, but the movie, the way she
is framed all the more that she gets to do

(01:48:48):
in the movie, all the more screen time she has
doesn't do her any justice. And then, just like with
Charles Barklay's comment of like, you know, I was beaten
by a bunch of girls like I don't, this movie
doesn't respect women. Um. The fact that it's a of
the live action characters, that it's a predominantly black cast

(01:49:09):
is worth noting. That's not common for a hugely mainstream
movie as this was that made over two million dollars
at the box office, and this whole franchise, including merchandizing,
which again does not include a little of Bunny enough,
is estimated to have made something like six billion dollars

(01:49:30):
since the movie was released. A lot of croptops. So
you know, there's pros and there's cons. But you know,
from the lens of intersectional feminism, I can't say that
it does very well. So one nipple and um, I'll
give it to a little of Bunny. Okay, this is

(01:49:52):
maybe over over rely generally, I I'm cutting this movie breaks.
Maybe it doesn't necessarily deserve, but I'm going to go
for one and a half and maybe I want I
almost want to give it it too, because I feel
like we've we've touched on this throughout the episode. The
fact that there is a female athlete icon at least

(01:50:13):
for young girls to project onto, was not a small
thing at this time. Is she hyper sexualized, yes? Is
she not on screen enough? Absolutely not. But I do
feel like a female athlete who is extremely competent and
is confident. In spite of the fact that that is

(01:50:34):
really only appears in one scene. It seems like the
cultural legacy of this movie. It doesn't feel like there
was just one scene because um, like, girls of this
generation projected so much onto her, because what else was
there at this time to project onto? You had basically
Disney princesses who were like, had really no agency that

(01:50:55):
much at all, because it Mulan hasn't come out at
this point. So I so, I I I'm being overally
generous to it, But I feel like Lila Bunny does
bring a lot to the table. Having a predominantly black
live action cast was a huge thing at this time,
and I just, I mean, maybe I'm giving it extra

(01:51:17):
points for nostalgia doesn't deserve, but I'm going to give
it one and a half. I also, it's also worth
mentioning that Um, there is. There are predominantly, as usual,
white men behind the camera for this movie, but there
is a black writer credited on this movie. Um, oh,
where are my notes? Oh? No, I have too many
notes because I feel like it is Timothy Harris who

(01:51:43):
is at the black writer on this movie. He is
the writing partner. It's like two male writing partnerships that
wrote this movie. So it's Timothy Harris and Herschel weinrad
great uh and then Leo bien Venudi and Steve Rudnick
are the two teams. Leo and Steve also wrote Santa
Claus shout Out, and Timothy and Herschel also wrote Trading Places, Kindergarten,

(01:52:07):
Cop and Twins. So now we know why Danny DeVito
is there. So there. I mean, it's I honestly, and
I'm like, okay, so there there is a black writer
on this project. Is it proportional representation? Absolutely not. Um,
I don't know. I just I love this movie and

(01:52:28):
I'm probably giving it too much credit, but I'm gonna
give it a nipple and a half and I'm giving
them both to Lola Bunny because we gotta get her
to ten. So Princess um give her seven point five
and give them up for seven point five nipples. I'm
definitely gonna I think I'm gonna be a little bit
more your generous and Jamie I gave it to, I
thoughtfully gave it to both of them. Are Lola's nipples. Um.

(01:52:52):
But I think for me, the thing that I was
thinking about in context of like female athleticism is like
the all only other movie I remember that featured like
a female athlete in this way, whereas the priority was
like loving basketball that came out and like in two
thousand and I feel like when I think about what

(01:53:15):
it meant for me to have like a Lola bunny
doll when I was a kid, and like, even rewatching
that movie today, I was like, there is something about
the way that she just was so effortlessly cool that
meant so much to me. And I think when I
think about even now, the way like and even a

(01:53:37):
Lola is not black, the way I've seen black girls
attached to that character, the way I've seen like that happened,
especially when you think about how the w n b
A talks about women, treats women, how underfunded they are.
I think, even though she doesn't get enough screen time,
it does mean something to have a competent female athlete

(01:54:01):
in a movie who gets to be a love interest,
because that kind of thing de sexualizes you in a
way that's very like queer phobic and misogynistic. At the
same time, it's like they're like, oh, she must be
like a lesbian, as if a that's a bad thing,
like shout out to her. But I think that the
tricky things that Lola is like a made by committee

(01:54:23):
design character, and so like that's why it can't be
like more than two. I love it that it's a
black movie, I love the music in it, and I
hope that Space Jam two does better. But I think
in terms of like the legacy of what Lola has
meant to a lot of people is still a good thing,
and that's why I'm bumping it just lightly up to um.

(01:54:46):
But I also agree that, like I'm probably giving it
a lot of nostalgic credit because literally this movie has
like genuinely saved me from like the worst like times
in terms of depression. It's like, my sweet smot Daffy
remains undefeated. He has he's so funny, he's so funny.
I just I love him so much. And the only

(01:55:08):
character in this movie that appears in drag if only
for a second. Yeah, because he's doing like a little
runway fleeting moments and he looked great, you know, like
that we can pull off a wig um oh Looney
Tunes look incredible and drag. Yeah, it's like that's kind
of well. Princess, thank you so much for joining us.

(01:55:29):
Thank you so much for having me. I was like
when I got that, when I got the d M,
I was like, I think. I was like, I was like,
my time is come finally, I think. I think. When
you asked me, I responded blank. I was like, Google play, Yeah,
by us, you're featuring Luda Chris Well, we'd love to

(01:55:51):
have you back anytime, so this will happen again. Thank you.
That means so much. But thank you so much for
having me this. This was so much fun. I turned
off my fans for this, and I don't feel like
I switted at all, even though I absolutely have so much.
I love you guys much. You have clean audio, and
everyone listening please follow Princess's work. I've been binging your

(01:56:14):
YouTube channel. It is so fucking good, Like, just get
into it, listeners. If you're not already into it. Yes,
and tell us where we can find you and where
what anything you want to plug? Yes, I am at
Week's Princess on Twitter, no spaces and it's Week's w
E E K E s um. And then on YouTube

(01:56:36):
my user name there is Molina Pendulum because I was
sixteen when I made it and I don't want to
change it. And my last video was about Gone with
the Wind, so you know, super topical, casual, you know,
just have a little it's about the book though, because
I'm not sitting through that movie for another four hours,
like because it's too long. Thank you so much for

(01:56:57):
having me, and let's go and jam. Well, welcome, Welcome
to the Jam, to the Jam. As always, there, may
the Jam be with you. We should rebrand as the
Jam Cast. Yes what if? Oh no, punch Up the

(01:57:17):
Jam is our new I'm just kidding. You can follow
us on social media on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast.
You can um subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon. It's
five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus
episodes every single month, including our entire back catalog of

(01:57:38):
all the bonus episodes, with which is like around seventy
now um seventy bonuses, so if you're if you're running
out of content, there's there's plenty more to go through
on the Matreon. You can get our merch at t
public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast get all year.
And we have new designs coming in the store soon
because I'm going to make them soon. So guess what,

(01:58:01):
They'll be there soon as soon as I make them,
which will be soon, so look forward to that soon. Incredible. UM,
thanks for listening, and UM, come on and slam and
to the jam, and welcome to the jam. Come on
and slam if you want a jam. Bye

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