Starship Troopers with Jonathan Braylock

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women inum, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
start changing it with the bel Cast, a podcast after
five years releases It's four million episode, but the twist

(00:25):
this time it's about the weirdest ship I've ever seen
in my life? Would you like to know more? Honestly?
Based on that? Um? No, I'm good, okay, exactly exactly
if only we had known. Welcome to the Bextel Cast.
I'm Gammie Lad, I'm Caitlin Darante and this is our

(00:47):
podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Simply, Jamie,
I would like to know more? What is the Actel test?
The Bechtel test is a media metric invented by Weir
cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. Would

(01:09):
you like to know more? I guess please? For our purposes,
the Bechdel test requires that two characters of a marginalized
gender with names speak to each other about something other
than men I honestly, I am not sure if it
happens in this movie or not. So confused was I

(01:31):
by the movie? Would you like to know more? Uh? No,
I'm good for now. Okay, well, Jamie, you're a natural
at that. Yeah, I'm a I'm a natural propagandists. Good
to know? Which is good to know? I okay, wait,
uh this is this is going to pass the Bechtel test.
Did you notice that there's a golden girl in Starship Troopers?

(01:55):
I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me
by this video essay that send me the link to,
which was I found very helpful. Thank you so much.
But yeah, I didn't notice because, like, I think the
makeup department makes her face looks somewhat disfigured or something,
and then she's also wearing these like goggli I believe
this is Yeah. I I wasn't sure if we were

(02:16):
supposed to think her character was blind. I wasn't totally sure.
I think that that might have been the implication. But
either way, Rue McClanahan is in the damn movie playing
a mean science teacher who's like, dissect this bug, like
I mean that in a good woman in Stem though
a woman. There's okay, there's a lot of this. This

(02:37):
episode is like the case against women in stem Uh
when it's used for fascism. So yeah, this is the
Starship Troopers episode of the Bechtel Cast, and um, listen,
bear with us because we were not expecting this movie. No,

(02:58):
we weren't excited to discuss. So let's introduce our guest.
He is an actor, a comedian. You know him from
Astronomy Club on Netflix and as the co host of
the podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood. It's Jonathan Braylock.
Thank you so much for having me. It's exciting. Thanks

(03:20):
for being here. Thank you for bringing up this terrifying movie.
It was on your list, so it seems like you
guys it was. Yes, it feels kind of random, But
we've gotten this request a bunch of times, and now
I I now, having seen it, I understand why. Even

(03:42):
less I was gonna say, why why have you gotten
the requests? I wonder if I have a I guess,
I guess I have a couple of theories. But I mean,
literally every movie ever made, including dozens we've never heard of,
we've gotten requests for. But this one came up enough
that we like, like we like added it to a

(04:02):
list and everything. So I people who have requested this movie,
I did demand an explanation. Jonathan, what's your history with
with this movie? Well? It's interesting because, like I've said
this on my podcast, but like when I was growing up,
I wasn't really allowed to watch rated our movies for

(04:24):
a while, and so like any time I saw what
it was either like a TV version of it, which
is like edited down but still kind of pretty graphic,
like verbal cop comes to mind and that kind of sense.
Same director, Yeah, exactly, like just hyper violent. But I
was super into sci fi, so I always wanted to

(04:45):
watch this movie, and I think I wasn't allowed to
when it had come out, But then I'm like, I
don't know. At some point in high school I was
able to like watch it, and I was kind of like,
I was like, what is I was like just kind
of confused because it was because I wanted to watch
like a you know, just a regular sci fi like
Star I thought like I was going to get into

(05:06):
like some Star Wars kind of thing, and this is
this movie is very much not that um but it
I don't know, there's something there was something about it
that always stuck with me about how like it felt
like the movie was kind of like making fun of
what the movie itself was to a degree, but also

(05:27):
but was still being that kind of movie. And so
I don't know, I just it's I wanted to rewatch
it because I was like, I wonder how that holds up,
Like I wonder if it was saying more than I
caught at the time, or you know, was it like
being more subversive than you know, people gave it credit for.
I don't know. I don't know if it was, but

(05:54):
but I wanted I wanted to examine it for me,
still inconclusive of and like you brought up Star Wars,
like this movie is like if Star Wars was told
from the perspective of like the Empire. Yeah, just like
a very uninquisitive Empire story. Trooper just being like, yes,
seems like they have a great idea exactly, Um, Jamie,

(06:20):
what's your history with it? Truly nothing like I had
seen other Paul Verhoeven movies like but by that I
mean Basic Instinct and Show Girls, which were his two
movies leading up to this. So I've never seen Robotop
I guess I don't really know this side of Paul Verhoeven. Sure,
And I didn't know it was a book until when

(06:43):
I mentioned we were covering this. They're like, you have
to read the book, which is the thing I hate
to hear the most. But I listened to the audio
book and I watched the movie, and both of them
are so fucking fascist and bizarre to me. Um, but
that's my that's my entire history. It started on Monday,
what about You, Kim Incredible? I had like volant. I

(07:07):
was like, I'm going to reread the book because I
had read the book in a class I took in
like a SCIE, a sci fi literature class I took
in college. It was like one of the required readings.
But I was a really bad student in that class.
And while I did like sort of read the books,
I also didn't entirely. I would like read the first
fifty pages, because we had to read a book every

(07:29):
week in that class, and I was like, I don't
know who has at the time, so I would like
read the first fifty pages and then usually like skim
the rest. And I think that's what I must have
done for this book, because I truly remembered nothing about it.
And then I also I thought I had seen this movie,
but as I was watching it, nothing about it was familiar.

(07:49):
So I think I just had one of those like
false memories of having seen it. So I also have
a very limited history with it. Um, I knew the
part of the history behind it. Of like, when it
first came out, critics were like, this movie sucks. It's
just a mess of like gratuitous graphic violence and uh,

(08:14):
weird themes and da da da da, and then and
then like kind of in retrospect, a bunch of critics
were like, oh, wait a minute, actually, this movie is
freaking a brilliant, awesome satire and if you don't notice that,
then your brain is bad there. And just like I like,
I love that cycle of like people think it sucks,

(08:35):
then they're like actually, and then they're like Galaxy brand,
They're like it's genius, and then three years later they're like, no, wait,
it does suck. It was We've come full circle, right, Um.
I think that like the way there's the framing, I like, okay,
the beginning, the beginning, like the propaganda framing, Like I

(08:58):
feel like that is as close to the like that
satirical framework, like those are the parts of the movie
that I like the best, but then all the plot
that happens between those seem to just be very unquestioning. Yeah,
it's very much just doing the story. Like when I
when I was starting it again, I was like, I
was like, yeah, it is wow, look at this, like

(09:19):
this is really fun. Like the scenes where like the
guys like giving his gun to like children, and the
children like and like fighting over the gun, and you're like,
it's like pushing it to the edge. But then when
we actually like get into I mean, there are small
things dropped here and there, but for the most part,
the movie is just doing the thing that the movie

(09:40):
is always do, And it was made in an error
where people were literally making and consuming these movies at
such a high degree that it's like, how would anyone
know that you were even if you said it, which
I think he he explicitly said it, like in interviews
and stuff, but it was like nobody knows. Nobody, Like
the the general audience doesn't know or care. They're like

(10:02):
they've been watching movies like this all the time, and
Robot I don't. It's funny because like I I don't
know if he feels the same way about RoboCop, but
like RoboCop is also like extreme, extremely like pro police,
pro like very racist, like very like. I don't know,
it's it's it's what it like says. What it says
is terrible and if and if you're trying to say,

(10:23):
like no, well this is a commentary, it's tough. Yeah,
I find those arguments always a little tough. Paul Verhoven
is his quotes are like weird to the context for
this movie being made. Is like he the screenwriter. He's
working with the same screenwriter that he did RoboCop with
Ed new Meyer. Ed new Meyer loves the book Starship Troopers.

(10:48):
Paul Verhoeven hates the books Starship Troopers. This makes so
much sense. He literally says, I stopped after two chapters
because it was so boring. It is really a bad book.
I asked ed new Meyer to tell me the story
because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very
right wing book. And he's right, But then, like, why
would he make this movie? It's so so strange. Um,

(11:10):
oh gosh, well should we Let's get into the recap
and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it, Hi, listeners,
Just a quick note about the recap. The way our
recording schedules worked out, we had to record the recap
separately without our guest Jonathan. So if you're wondering, hey,

(11:31):
why isn't Jonathan saying anything during the recap, that's why. Okay,
enjoy Okay. So, Um, this movie is set in a
distant future where the people of Earth are at war
with an alien species known as bugs or arachnik a.
Definitely not communists, definitely not. Uh and okay, So in

(11:57):
this world, the only way to be um, a citizen
of the Federation, the Federation being this government that rules
it's Earth, and yeah, it's little like the military state, right, Um.
And the only way to become a citizen with voting
rights and all that kind of stuff is to serve
in the military a k a. The Federal Service. So

(12:20):
the movie opens on a military propaganda commercial which we've
already perfectly demonstrated you amazingly replicated, um, And this commercial
is about how it's awesome to join the Federal Service.
Then we cut to a battle scene where we see

(12:41):
the reality of kind of the situation and this war,
which is soldiers getting brutally killed by these aliens, which, again,
like those first few minutes of the movie, with this
like military propaganda commercial which glorifies war, Jack stupposed against
these scenes of graphic violence that show the reality and

(13:05):
the horror of war, makes it seem like, yeah, it
looks like some interesting satire is emerging here, but then
it just kind of stops and doesn't really go anywhere, right. Um.
Then we cut to one year earlier where we meet
some high school students. Johnny Rico is our hero. He's
played by Casper Van Dying. I'm not really sure to

(13:28):
what his name is. Fun fact, he was married to
an actress who was in the vow because she joined
that terrifying cult. Oh whoa, he's one degree removed from
a terrifying cult. Wow, Casper, that's and that's all I
have for context corner Um. His girlfriend is Carmen Ibanez.

(13:52):
That is Denise Richards. We also meet their classmate, Dizzy Flores.
She's played by Dina meyer Um, who is obviously interested
in Johnny romantically. Then we also meet carl A Neil
Patrick Harris in like full doogie mode in this movie,
Like he's like what if Doogie was a fascist and

(14:16):
this this is a question no one asked, but this
movie answers yes indeed, um. And they are all about
to graduate and they're all considering joining the federal Service.
They have a teacher, Mr. Ross Check I also don't
know how to say his name. He is teaching them
about how military violence is actually really good and cool

(14:39):
and necessary. Hell yeah. Then we see a football game
where Johnny and Dizzy are playing football and then also
sometimes doing gymnastics. I was like, what is that was
one of the Paul Verhoven little touches that I was like, yeah, sure,

(15:00):
why not? Yeah? Um. The reason I bring the football
game up is that this is where we meet a
guy from the opposing football team, Xander. He becomes important
later and he's trying to flirt with Carmen and it's
a whole thing. He's exhausting. I mean, everyone in this
movie is exhausting, but him especially Right then, the next day, Johnny, Carmen,

(15:22):
and Carl all join the Federal Service. Carmen will train
to be a pilot. Carl will be military intelligence because
by the way, he has psychic abilities, he can talk,
which he shows us by being like I know what
every card in the deck is. Also, I can talk
to my ferret. You're like, huh, okay, I guess that's

(15:45):
technically showing, not telling, is sure, Yeah, I guess that's planting.
That's a Checkov's ferret um or something perfect. And then
Johnny will be infantry. Johnny begins bootcamp with Sergeant Zim, who,
of course, is best known as being one of the
villains from Flubber. Yes, okay, I was. I was like,

(16:10):
I wonder who's going to bring up her first? Um, yeah,
I mean the parallels between Um, what is the name
of this movie Stormship Troopers not storm troop Troopers. I'm gonna, yeah,
I need to do a disclaimer where I'm gonna accidentally
call this movie stormship Troopers because of Stormtroopers, even though
it's called Starship Troopers. I mean, this movie. My first

(16:32):
note for this is literally like Starship Troopers is if
there was a biopic made of a stormtrooper who never
questioned the military and viewed the rebellion as literal cockroaches
Like there, yeah, fascism. Okay. Anyway, so Sergeant Zim, um

(16:53):
Dizzy shows up to boot camp. She had requested to
be transferred to this particular unit, probably because of how
in love she is with Johnny Rico. Gary A. Bussey's
son is also there, which is once you know it's
Gary A. Bussey's son, You're like, WHOA, that's really Gary Son,

(17:14):
I know h. And he's playing he's playing the violin.
He's That was another thing where just so much of
this movie is so ridiculous as it watches over you
that you're like, yeah, Gary Abussey's son is here. There
was already a golden girl. I guess we just like
jumped the shark immediately right. His name is Ace. Boot

(17:37):
Camp is tough, but Johnny shows promise and eventually he
has made squad leader. Meanwhile, we see Carmen learning to
be a pilot. She crosses paths with Stander again. Then
Carmen sends a message, a video message, breaking up with Johnny,
and shortly after that, Johnny is relieved of squad leader

(17:58):
duty after the of a teammate, which was his fault.
So he quits the military and he's about to go
back home, but just then war breaks out. When bugs attack,
they like throw a meteor at earth. I don't know
if it was supposed to be funny when he's skyping
his parents and they're like, come home, we love you.
Oh no, what's going on? And then it goes boop boop.

(18:22):
I was like, okay, like there's so much of this movie.
They're like, was that supposed to be campy or is
that just Paul Verhoeven trying to be serious? Well that's
the thing. Like a lot of people will be like,
this movie is brilliant satire and it's so hilarious, and
then I'm over here being like shrug. I'm like, I

(18:42):
think that that it definitely wants to be a brilliant satire,
but you know, kind of like I'm not totally sure.
I'm not convinced. Um So, because of the war that
has just broken up, Johnny Rico's like, I'm going to
join back up, So he and other troops are are deployed,
but the battle goes horribly wrong. They underestimate the bugs.

(19:05):
Hundreds of thousands of troopers are killed in action, Johnny
is badly wounded, uh and Carmen thinks that he's dead
and she's all sad about it. So then the military
has to reevaluate their battle plan and the teacher Mr.
Razcheck shows up and he's like, by the way, I'm
a lieutenant. Were like okay, um, and then let's see

(19:30):
Johnny's injury gets fixed via sci fi science. That was
kind of fun. He's in like a goop a goop
tank and then they're like, okay, you're good to go. Uh.
Then they go back into battle and have a few
successful missions where they kill a lot of bugs. Raz
Check promotes Johnny. Johnny and Dizzy kiss and have sex

(19:51):
and things really seem to be looking up. And guess
who loves that they're having sex? Mr raz Check for
some reason, He's take an extra ten minutes to have
sex with each other. I'm like, um, you were my
history teacher at Growth, right. Um. So then they go
out on another mission to Planet P and things go

(20:14):
horribly wrong and they start to figure out that there
must be like a brain bug that is controlling the
other bugs and making intelligent choices and setting traps and
things like that. Oh also, we should say, I mean
it goes without saying that because this is a sci
fi movie made by a man, that the and the
monsters are vaginal, especially this brain bug which we are

(20:38):
about to see. I kind of was like back I'm like,
you know what evil brain pussy? Sure, you know iconic. Yeah,
So they learned about the brain Bug and a bunch
of soldiers are killed, including roz Check and Dizzy. So
then Carmen and Xander fly into rescue them, and Carmen

(21:05):
is like, oh my god, Johnny, I thought you were dead,
and he's like, uh no, surprised, surprise, And then Neil
Patrick Harris comes back dressed as a full Nazi. Was
not prepared, Neil Patrick Harris to become a full Nazi,

(21:25):
nor was I. And he's like, by the way, you
have to go back to Planet P and kill the
brain Bug Johnny Rico, who is now a lieutenant I
think because he had to kill his his his teacher um.
And Johnny's like cool, sounds good to me. So then
they go back in for one last battle. Meanwhile, Carmen

(21:49):
and Xander's starship has been like shot out of space
and then they crash land onto Planet P right into
the nest of the brain bug convenience. And the brain
Bug definitely is the most vagina ish vagina monster if
any movie I've ever seen that Yeah, yeah, and it

(22:12):
sucks out Xander's brain as vaginas do as vaginas do,
and it's about to do the same for Carmen, but
then Johnny and a couple other troopers show up and
save her, and then they capture the brain bug, and
then Neil Patrick Harris uses his psychic abilities to learn
that the bug is afraid, and then everyone cheers because

(22:35):
the bug is afraid. They're like, oh wow, we are
really gonna commit a lot of atrocities soon, like, and
that's basically the end of the movie, so shockingly, Yeah,
let's take a quick break and then we will come

(22:55):
right back and we're back. Can I give a quick
book recap, please, because I just need to justify the
time spent listening to the audiobook on one point five Okay,
so the book, the book, and the movie are both fashy,

(23:18):
but in kind of different ways. So I guess make
of that what you will. In the book, Um, there's
a whole like whitewashing discussion to be had about this
movie because in the book most of the main characters
are Filipino. Um, and I believe they live in Canada,
not Buenos Aires, even though Buenos Aires still does get

(23:39):
bugged in the book. I don't know but the but yeah,
it's Um, it's Juan Rico and his father Emilio Rico.
And so that's the first huge difference. UM and as
well as like Carmen and Carl, they're all in point
to be Filipino characters that live in the same community
in Canada. There are class differences in the book, unlike

(24:01):
in the movie where Um they still call him. They
like americanized his name to Johnny midway through the book.
Once he's in the military, he's called Johnny. At home
he was called one UM. But once he gets to
boot camp, like he he grew up in a really
rich family. Uh, and Carl and Carmen grew up in
a lower class family, which which is implied why that's

(24:24):
why they're joining the military. So there's like more push
and pull there. There's like actual class stuff going on. Uh.
They did that a little bit, like you knew that
he was rich. And there was that scene in the
bat like the shower where they're all taking a shower
together U where they're like talking about why they why
they joined, and there is like a lot of people

(24:44):
are like joined because they didn't have money or they
like were farmers or whatever. So like it was there
a little bit with him, but definitely not Carmen. They
didn't they didn't make it seem like Carmen didn't have
money in the movie. Yeah, and it seems like carl
was doing just fine because he's like in his like
science deck ster's lab basement or whatever. He's got a
pet ferret, you know, he's got like all the rich

(25:05):
people do. I'm sure, but yes, so there's that. But then,
I mean, the book does in the middle, uh take
a pretty hard right turn where it just sort of
starts through the teacher character just starts kind of spouting
right wing philosophy. Like there's just whole chapters that are

(25:27):
about how the like there's no such thing as life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There is only loyalty
to the state. The most freedom you can get is
a willingness to die for the state. And it just
gets really hardcore. What what I The only thing I
think it really does better is the class stuff, and

(25:47):
like it's more of a coming of age story. Even
though it's like Juan Rico is coming of age into
a fascist super soldier, he at least undergoes some sort
of like change where I feel like in the movie
he's kind of just like there, he's like hot and
he's there, he likes he likes Carmen, he likes car

(26:09):
and oh yeah, Krmen is barely in in the book.
There's no love story in the book or anything like that.
That was like the whole thing for this movie. Yeah,
I guess that that's we're saying, is there's all of
all of the sexes of that appears in the movie
is very of the movie. It's that in the book
at all. I would say that that's one of the
issues that the book actually like doesn't really super fumble,

(26:33):
but it's it's implying that it's this fashion that it's
this like militaristic utopia. That's why I think what the
author wants you to think, like because he was in
the military himself. He is actively pushing children reading this
book to go into the military, so he's like, the
military isn't sexist, the military isn't racist. We're all fighting

(26:54):
against the bugs, which is just communism. So it's very
nineteen fifties like it was. It is it written as
like a dystopian world? Like is it written like a
nine four where it's like warning against this type of thing,
or do you does it? It feels like it's very
pro this it's full, it's it's full utopia to the
point where I was like reading of like it's so

(27:16):
fucking weird because you think that I just didn't see
that coming. Where like the more into fascism he gets,
the happier he becomes, and he becomes fully self actualized.
By the end in the book, his dad doesn't die.
His dad gives up his richie rich business and joins
the military with his son. And at the end they're like,

(27:37):
we're so happy, Like who wrote this book this? He's like,
I never like literally he's a former Nazi wrote this book. Unfortunately,
a US veteran who really got into it. It's really
fucking weird, Like I it's and and I guess even

(27:59):
in its time, people like this is right wing like
man of Propaganda. Yeah, because it it is. But it
was also one of the most like successful, influential like
sci fi books of its time. There were a lot
of like posts and stuff I found about like, oh,
when I first read this, it maybe want to join
the military because that's literally like what it is supposed

(28:20):
to You're it's supposed to make you want to just
die for the state and view your enemy as just
a lifeless evil husk Uh. So it's a fucked up book. Uh.
And Carmen and and Dizzy. The name Dizzy has brought
up literally once in the first chapter. She doesn't go
to school with them. She's not a character that exists

(28:41):
in this world. She's just one of his like squad
friends who's killed at the beginning. And so there's no
love triangle, none of that ship. It's just truly all
right wing ideology, um and a child being radicalized. So
that's the book I read. The author, Robert A. Hind Line,

(29:02):
wrote this book in response to right Um wrote this
book in response to him being mad that the US
was suspending nuclear testing. He's like, no, we should be
blowing and shut up and you know, having nuclear bombs

(29:24):
dropping all over the place all the time. He loves war,
the more casualties better. Looking him up on Wikipedia, he's
six generation German American. Look, I'm not saying that all
Germans are Nazis, but this guy wrote a fascism. He
wrote a famous fashio. I don't know, I don't know.

(29:48):
It's so yeah, it's it's fun. Like the book is
fucking scary because it's like it does start to pull
you in of like, well, it's a coming of age story,
and then in like a third of the way through,
it's like, fuck you is scarier sh it you'll ever read.
There is something interesting about because he's I think this

(30:08):
guy's like this is very anti communist. But there's a
similar way in the movie does this, and I'm guessing
the book does something similar where they at some point
where they're talking about the bugs, they're like kind of
I don't like idealizing them. They're like, oh, there's like
they're actually I don't know. They they don't have fear,

(30:28):
they follow orders, they do this, they do that, and
like there is this way in which like fascist, very
right wing even though they're like against left wing, they like,
you know, they they actually like dream about like wow,
could you imagine having that much power where you know,
people would just conform to the state and do this
and do that, like for the good And you're just like,

(30:49):
so you're the same thing. You're the thing that you
think that you think you're fighting against, Like that's what
you want to be, Like what it's it's such a
mindful It's like that does up and in the book
as well, and it's like it's such a mind funk
because when you're listening to it, you're like, this sounds
like brainwashing. This sounds really bad. But the book is like,
and isn't this amazing that we've shaped this young man

(31:11):
to think this way? But it is. Yeah, it's like, uh,
as he spends more time in boot camp, and the
boot camp thing is very different in the book. I
won't even get into it because it's like more fucked
up and worse. But uh, they're just like slowly it's
worse there. It's yeah, I don't don't read the book,
but the they they're just slowly sort of like encouraging

(31:33):
him too and everyone to you know, not view the bugs.
Individuals view them as this mass organized and it just
encouraged to like the soldiers, to view them as beings
that do not have emotions, and so you will feel
less bad about murdering them, like and in the I
feel like the movie and the book you find out

(31:54):
really nothing about like the bugs, what their goal is, like,
what they're defending against, just so you don't feel bad
about watching Johnny Rico kill them even the like even
though they have all this intelligence and like you know,
weapons and this kind of things like that, like whenever,
like every planet that they're on looks like completely lifeless.

(32:15):
They're like even though even when they go underground, it's
like they're just like living in tunnels, like they're just
kind of doing this thing of like yeah, they just
all they do is reproduce and spread and they and
they're trying to kill us and that's it, Like that's
all they are, just like this living organism. That's all
it's trying to do is like spread and destroy. But again,

(32:36):
there's a reflection to us that could happen here, you know,
in that. But the movie as subversive as people want
this movie to be, and like, yes, there there are
certain things where they're clearly like poking fun. The movie
never actually goes there, Like it never actually goes there
because you could do that, but nobody had no None
of these characters have any real realization that's happening. At

(32:58):
the end, they're all you victorious, just cheering literally look
at how much of a hero we all are, And
it's encouraging the audience to fascist Doogie is so scary. Um. Oh,
also that is a that's a that's a big change
from the book. Carl is uh not psychic and is
not uh not, No, there's no there's no psychic through line. Unfortunately,

(33:28):
Carl dies about two seconds into the book, like they
all enlist at the same time. Johnny Johnny enlist because
he wants to prove that he's more than just a
rich kid, which is like exhausting, but he doesn't enlist
because of Carmen, and then uh, Carl dies almost right
away and Carmen disappears until the very end of the book. Wow.

(33:49):
Going back to the bug thing really quick, there's like
a very brief suggestion in the movie that humans have
been basically just call alonizing all of the like outer
reaches of this entire galaxy, and then they came upon
this like species of aliens and they didn't like to
be colonized, and then they fought back. And now that

(34:14):
that's sort of like what instigated this entire war where
the humans are like genociding these aliens, but it's just
because of the humans being colonizers, and like there's just
like a sliver of that in the movie. It's like
you could do something with that, but then they're like, no,
they're not gonna do anything. It's truly a sliver. There's

(34:35):
one person who there's like a report, like a nameless
reporter who's like some would say that the humans are
actually the ones that provoke the attack, and they're like
shut up. And then and then you're like you're like
like that's funny, but when you don't actually do any
of that, it's like, um, I don't know if you've
guys noticed this, but like there are times where, like

(34:57):
especially now, where like shows like pretend to be woke
by like adding a line in Like I remember reading
this pilot where it was like it was a space
kind of start, not Star Trek, but like something like that. Um,
and the captain of the of the ship becomes like
this dude who's like not as smart and like they're

(35:21):
they're like jokes made about how he's not as smart
as like the woman he passes up or like the
other people, but it's like he still becomes the captain
And I was like, Okay, so you guys pretend you're
being woke by by like being like yeah with like
man the like how did you become captain usually women
are captains, and I'm like, okay, but this show is
going to be in our universe with a male, white

(35:46):
male lead, So what do we So you're not actually
doing the thing that you're you're commenting on, like you
just assuming that by stating that, it's like we know
we're doing it again and do it anyway. It reminds
me of the Last Avengers movie when there's that moment

(36:06):
where like all the women superheroes that they've only just
introduced him to the universe within the past like two years.
We're like, wow, look at them, they're all walking together
and just like feminism, right, women's like danting next to
each other. Yeah, right, yeah, this this movie does because
it's like I feel like, at the end of the day,

(36:27):
if if the movie is at no point that I
feel like the movie was having you question Johnny ricas
like motivations, question his journey or like root against him
in any way, So it's like, well, then is it
really saying anything if the whole journey is Johnny getting
like really lost in the fascism sauce, and we're just

(36:50):
supposed to be like really rooting for him the whole time,
Like you're never supposed to be rooting against him or
the Earthlings. So if you had died, right, I can't.
I wish he had died. I wish he had died,
or there was like just some sort of like yeah,
the movie to me feels completely void of like commentary

(37:12):
and like, yes, there are these ends of satire with
like the propaganda commercials that are being sprinkled throughout, but
it feels like what you're saying, Jonathan, it feels like
like the closest they get to be like, isn't this
fucked up? But then just doing the fucked up thing. Yeah,
I read the director Paul Verhoeven said that his intent

(37:35):
with this movie because again everyone wants to you know,
lots of people are like, but it's brilliant satire. So
Paul ever Hooven was like, well, my intent here was
to seduce the audience into rooting for these fascist characters
using the same military propaganda that like the Third Reich
was using for propaganda. And then also his intent was

(37:59):
to chaw lenge the audience too, kind of consider, Okay,
why are we rooting for fascism? That's an interesting idea.
I just don't think he pulls it off, it's not
executed well. And I didn't see that intent until he
explained it to me personally. So it's like, then you're
not if you're that's not effective satire. Think, Yeah, the

(38:22):
reason that it's not affective to me in the slightest
is that one we don't. First of all, the reason
that the book uses bugs as the enemy is because
as human beings, we do have like in an a
kind of we're like we look at insects as like
they're gross, and we don't feel like people, even people

(38:42):
who love animals, you know, will be quicker to kill
a roach or an aunt, you know, or be than
they would and maybe not bees anymore, just because now
we know their environmental impact. But but like, but you
know what I mean, Like we're quicker to kill insects
than we are any other really any other kind of
animal species. So so we're watching this movie and we

(39:05):
don't feel anything for the bugs, Like nobody, you're you're
not you're not thinking at all, like, oh, that bug
had a family, or what if that bug was just
like what if that bug is a civilian that's just
like trying to live its life, Like it's it's so
hard to like get there, and there are sci fi
books that actually kind of make you think that. I mean,
Enders Game is supposed to be that kind of book too.

(39:26):
I don't know if you guys have ever read Enders Game.
Not from high school. I saw the movie though, but
that was a similar thing where they're like training these
like child soldiers to like kill things and like the
bugs are the enemy, and then like at the end,
he realizes, like he that this wasn't a trading mission,
that it was the actual thing, and he's like wiped

(39:48):
out in the whole planet of of bugs and he's
like and the kid kind of feels like, wait a minute,
what did I just do? But it's also one of
those things where it's even that like it's it doesn't
go far enough, because people who look at the Nazis
who are bad, like as bad guys, like people who
sympathize with like fascism will also you know, use the

(40:10):
Nazis as like some symbol of like, yeah, those guys
like the Nazis are bad, you know, but our brand
of fascism is good, you know, which is what this
movie is. You know. It's like, yeah, I don't know,
I guess I don't know how anyone who wasn't who
didn't already know the things that he's like trying to
point out, is going to come to that realization themselves. Yeah,

(40:33):
it's like Paul Verhoeven, it just seems ill equipped to
do what he says he's trying to do. And he's
also just chosen like if he wants to make an
anti fascist statement like this is not the book to
adapt into a really expensive movie, like it's a fascist book,
so using a using a screenwriter who likes the fascist book,

(40:54):
right if you yeah, it's it's it's pretty wild. The
other thing that's like, Yeah, the other thing that's annoying
is that I actually do think there was a chance
in here to do something like like if you do
have like these characters just like be like smiling over
just like the most horrendous stuff. But like at the

(41:16):
end of the day, Rico gets to stay alive, he
gets the save the girl. Like he's failed upwards so
many times that he's now a lieutenant just through his
history teacher. He's like experiencing a history teacher nepotism. Yeah,
his his history teacher who told him to come in
is like is the other hero, all the things that

(41:38):
like the all the people who are against him, like
his parents who are against them joining the military. They
they get wiped out. And then motivation for him to
stay there. You know, the girl that he is friends
with but he doesn't really like. She winds up dying
for her only purpose was for her to be with him.

(42:00):
Dying words are at least I got to be with you.
And then and then he gets and then the and
then the guy who stole his girl he dies too,
So like everything's a okay for this dude. This dude
is living the life. So how are we supposed to
ever think that this movie is saying anything bad about this?

(42:21):
It's I feel like it's especially like the Johnny Rico,
Like he's just his last name is Rico. It's ridiculous,
Like and then and then but like in the movie
that I found like Carl to be more frustrating than
anyone else. He literally becomes like a Nazi psychic doctor
and at the end he gets like that. I was like,

(42:41):
how did Carl not die or experience any sort of
like like you just see like these high school kids
getting radicalized. And then the movie ends like and so
like there's You're never supposed to be like was that good?
Like were we supposed to feel good about that? As
it's just assumed that you want, like you hate the bugs.

(43:03):
We know nothing about them. They all look like vagina
monsters like every sci fi movie from this era, like
and that's and that's it. I don't know. Yeah, I
as much as I appreciate the in between segments of
like would you like to know more? But it's like,
literally I would Paul Verhoeven I put that in the story. Um. Yeah,

(43:28):
there's one point that I kind of the one Paul
Verhoeven quote that I was like, that's kind of interesting
because I don't know, he's like he is a guy
who just loves when anyone is naked right like, and
doesn't know how to have sex. I mean that's just
basic ast thing that off the basic inst thing. I'm like,

(43:49):
what do you think sex is? Like? What is such
a weird man? The one quote that because there is
like that cod shower scene that is pretty important to
like understanding the world, and I feel like it's like
one of the only scenes that I felt like got
close to saying something and then ultimately didn't because it

(44:10):
was just basically explaining, like like what a barrier not
serving in the military would be to like achieving any
dream you'd have, whether you want to be a parent
or a politician or a writer, or like, you have
to serve in order to just like live somewhat autonomously.
So it's a helpful scene to include they're all naked,
which is very Paul Verhoven Like, I don't know. I

(44:33):
guess I wasn't like particularly bothered because everyone was more
or less framed in a similar way, But I liked
so Pulver I guess that that was the scene that
he had the most difficulty getting through, not the five
trillion gory brutal deaths um not people being ripped limb
from limb, not someone's brain getting literally sucked out of

(44:56):
their head. He's like, so this is okay. I'll give
you the quote, and then I'll give you the context
because it's a fun twist. So he says this quote
about that kind of editing struggle. He said, uh, because
he's Dutch. He says, Americans get more upset about nudity
than ultra violence. I am constantly amazed about that. I mean,

(45:16):
I haven't seen any sex scenes in American film that
are anything other than completely boring. A bare breast is
more difficult to get through the sensors than a body
riddled with bullets. I think that's a very valid point, right,
Like that's and and and I feel like the nudity
of this movie, at least compared to other movies of
its time, I didn't think it was like particularly, I mean,
it didn't need to be there, but it felt like

(45:38):
gender was. It was just like, I guess we're all
naked in this scene. I wasn't super bothered by it,
but okay, but the twist in this scene, um is
that So apparently they he was having trouble even getting
permission to shoot the scene, and then the cast. It
says on scholarly journal Wikipedia, the cast agreed to do

(46:00):
the co ed shower scene only if Verhoeven agreed to
direct the scene naked, which he did so respect which
which is like, I can't imagine a world in which
having Paul Verhoeven naked would make me more comfortable. But
that was that was what the cast said. And so

(46:22):
that was how he got the topless scene through was
by being also topless. I mean, there is something about
that like you you're in this with us, you know,
kind of thing, like we're all going to share in
this like experience that could feel embarrassing. Yeah, so you know, Paul,
he was, he was, you know, at least willing to participate.

(46:43):
It's like the more sexual version of when Greta Growing
wore the prom dress during the Ladybird Prom scene. Right.
I don't know, this scene felt to me like gratuitous nudity,
especially because most of the new ditty you see is
women's breasts, and it just felt to me like an

(47:04):
excuse to show some titties. And I just wasn't sure
why it was happening. But I don't know, maybe that's
just me being a puritan. I disagree on this specific scene.
I don't know. I feel like that all the bodies
in this scene, especially when you compare it to other
like I always think of like the shower scene that

(47:25):
opens carry exactly. I was thinking the same thing like
that is that's so it's so predatory too, because it's
like these are high school girls and there's no reason
for us to see this, like it doesn't add anything
to the movie, whereas this and it's like it's like
it's voyeuristic, right, Whereas this this, it's like they're all

(47:45):
taking a shower together and none of them are sexualizing it.
Like there's a way in which I can see I
can see or Hoban's like kind of thinking of like
we gotta just you guys, gotta calm down with like
how like both repressed and over sexualized you are in
your society and one of the wait one of the
ways to do that instead of like seeing nudity in
like some sexual context, it's like we're all just like

(48:08):
everyone's showers. They're all showering together, no one's making comments
on other people's body parts, and they're having actually like
a real conversation right there, talking about their hopes and
dreams topless. And I'm like, well, I guess that's as
close to enjoying this group of people as I'm going
to get. I mean, yeah, it's like I think that
it's a little bit different when it comes to that
like weird sex scene with uh with Johnny and Dizzy,

(48:32):
Like I think that I would argue as a little
more or do it is, But the shower scene I
was pretty unbothered by, I don't know, but also I
was reading that test the way that like, I don't know,
just I'm just like, wow, America is so fucking broken, right,
But like test audiences for this movie um did not

(48:54):
comments on the brutal violence at all. They were just
like I can't believe that people were topless. And then
they also felt like the original notes were that they
felt it was immoral for Carmen to choose a career
ahead of being loyal to Rika, and they wanted like
audiences wanted that change, not even Paul Verhoeven, and that

(49:16):
Carmen shouldn't immoral, and that Carmen should have died instead
of Dizzy because she made the sin of choosing a
career over some fucking guy. Uh And and I guess
that was like overwhelmingly they're like I hated that I
saw nudity, and you should have killed Denise Richards for

(49:39):
wanting a job. And you're like, oh my god, no,
you should have killed everyone for being a fascist. Like
we're missing the thing here. So I don't know. Yeah,
all all the sexism in this movie has been added,
but it seems like audiences wanted more. There was a
high demand for the female characters to be treated. Uh, worse.

(50:04):
That is absolutely wild. Well, let's take a quick break
and then we'll come back for more discussion, and we're back.
Should we talk about these gals. Let's talk about the gals.
Should we start with Carmen? Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.

(50:28):
Everyone in this movie is a bad actor, right, like
pretty much or like all the not Neil Patrick Harr.
I mean I feel like, didn't okay, Denise Richards and
Casper Van question Mark are bad actors. But watching Denise
Richards pretend to steer a spaceship was like I was
losing it. It's so funny she's because she her eyes

(50:50):
are just kind of glazed and the eyeline doesn't quite
make sense, and then she just like pulls, like gently
pulls a little. I was like, I've seen Star Wars.
I think it's harder to drive this thing that you're
making it look I attend to. I think she was
maybe miscast for this role. But at the same time,
every time I love Denise Richards, but this movie gets

(51:12):
brought up, Everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's that movie that
like Denise Richards is in for some reason, and then
like people are like, I feel like unnecessarily cruel to her.
So then so then I'm like, I guess I kind
of feel bad for like dumping on her her performance
in this I'm just as happy to dump on almost
anyone in this movie. Gary Busey's sons, the lead of

(51:36):
this movie is like, I'm not getting anything from him.
He's just a blank slate. But but it is this
weird thing where it felt intentional for them to be
like these like very young, conventionally attractive, very very wide,

(51:56):
very arian, like like, oh you know here, these are
these are the the men and woman we put on
our our poster board, you know, for for Nazi Germany. UM.
And I was like, I was kind of like, I
kind of like, didn't I don't know the acting. I
didn't like it didn't necessarily pull me out because of
what I was watching, you know what I mean. Like

(52:17):
they're like, it wasn't like there was something. I guess
that's two fold that I didn't feel like the script
was giving anything deeper. But I also realized that better
actors probably could have done something that the script wasn't doing,
and that even the director maybe didn't wasn't even trying
to do um and make these characters feel more you know,
three dimensional, but they were. It was very two men

(52:41):
and most of these, I mean most of the main
quote unquote teen actually thirty year old cast, Like most
of them are nineties TV stars, So they were just
like people who were on TV at the time, because
like Neil Patrick Harris was Doogie Houser, Dina Meyer was
on like Beverly Hills nine O two one, Oh Didn't
Richards was one. Like these were all just kind of

(53:02):
like teen soap stars that were put in this movie
about militaristic fascism. So I don't really understand the expectation
for any of them to thrive in this environment. That said,
Deniece Richard driving a spaceship. As far as her character
goes in general, I was not impressed with the way

(53:24):
that she was written, believe it or not, um because basically,
like so, it's the type of character who's like, Okay,
she's really smart, she's really good at what she does,
she's able to work her way up through the ranks,
but she like just has absolutely no dimension or like
nu once to her character, like she has no flaws,

(53:47):
she never makes any mistake. Her main journey is like
picking between two assholes. Like that's her journey. Well, I
guess our journey was to become a pilot, like and
then like by the end is a captain right like
her her her journey is is the career path and
then like this romance thing. It is funny. I will say, uh,

(54:11):
none of the female characters are written very well at all.
But I also don't think any of the male characters
are written well in this movie out, so there's like
a there's at least a parody in the in the
sense in the sense that they're all two dimensional characters
that said, like, it's still Rico, still the lead. Yeah,
I I think this is I don't know, like I

(54:33):
like that she's it feels like kind of like an
empty gesture of like she's an amazing pilot, which is like, okay,
that's great, but she kind of achieves her goal immediately,
like the first time she gets in the pilot seat
there like you're amazing at this, and that she just
continues to succeed at it um and her main thing
is like Zander versus Johnny, And it seems like I
like that she's the one to break up with Johnny,

(54:55):
Like it seems like she's being pretty realistic about everything.
She's like because she's bare into him at the beginning,
Like he has to keep reminding her that I love you,
do you love me at all? And she's like, I guess,
she's like, we're in high we're in high school, man,
Like yeah, like chill, like we're high school boyfriend girfriend.

(55:15):
We're literally not going to know each other when we graduate.
She's just kind of being I appreciate that she's being
a realist about her high school relationship. And I was,
and I don't know, I don't like dislike harmen. I
just like we know nothing about any of these kids, right,
And also it is very jarring when all of their
families die and they don't really react. I got react barely.

(55:38):
I mean there's yeah where she's like, you know, every
time I think about it, I'm crying, but like she's
not crying in that moment, and it doesn't seem like
she's actually that sad. Uh Anyways, like oh my god, Yeah,
their entire families die, which I feel like really gets
glazed over, which it's again it's just like, well, then

(56:03):
don't have them live there if you're not going to
have them react to their entire families dying. I don't know,
it's very straight, but yeah, it's like Kerman the most,
like we don't really know. She kind of achieves her
goal right away, and then it's just kind of like
she's I like that she's like present and there's definitely
she has her own storyline, but I don't know. It

(56:25):
was not very moved by the Zander versus Johnny Rico
uh decision. And she also didn't seem she seemed pretty
set on like what she wanted, so it wasn't even
really a struggle for her really at a point, right,
she was just like she was like, yeah, we're like
I'm going to be in a career and you're in

(56:46):
the mobile infantry, like we're not going to see each other,
so blah blah. And then he gets upset because he
sees that other guy. And it wasn't even like she
was like I'm leaving you for him. It was just
like we're never going to be together. And also there's
somebody else here that maybe I'll have a thing with,
you know, right, and I just like generally annoyed by
like the whole Xander thing. It's like added for the movie.

(57:07):
And also adds nothing. It's like it was. It's always
so frustrating to me when a random guys added into
a scene where there's a more interesting female character literally
sitting right next to him for the every scene he's in,
like her captain, Like, I'm like there could we could
she could we talk to her? You know, she gets

(57:28):
killed and then it's just about this guy Xander, like
are they gonna kiss? Or are they going to hit
an asteroid? And that happens like forty times. He also
has no personality, like we we literally know nothing about him.
He's introduced in the most like basic way of like
they're playing some weird new version of football gymnastics Football

(57:51):
gymnastics football was fun. That was like one of my
favorite parts. And they're all right, if we all right,
we're gonna prove who's the better guy for you're a
girl by who wins this sports game, and you're like,
first of all, she doesn't care at all, and also
why do you what is happening like? And then the
two of them have another fight later on where he's like,

(58:13):
you know what, let's punch each other. Rank doesn't even matter,
and then they just like have this like BROI fist fight,
and I'm like, yeah, I was like, don't care about this.
And it's also like even Carmen looks bored during this
scene because she's like this is just like is this necessary?
And it's like, yeah, I wish I knew what was

(58:33):
on your mind. I don't know. And also it's like
in general, I don't know. It's we sort of we
weirdly talked about this on our Cadet Kelly episode, but
it's like, you know, I don't know. In this movie,
it's like, I guess you don't often see women in
combat in movies, but like this, I don't want to
see fascist women in combat. How is that? Like that's

(58:57):
not the representation win I think this movie. I was
gonna say, if if fans of yours suggest that this movie,
I'm wondering if it's because because of the little crumbs
that you're still getting there is a there is a
way to look at this and be like wow, like
they had women in so many in high ranks of

(59:19):
like every part of this military. Like she becomes a pilot,
Like she does better than him. She becomes a pilot,
Like you know, you have Dias who's like really great.
She has her captain is a woman, like when the
general gets taken over, that's like a black woman. Like,
so there's like there are and like there are women
in combat, and there's never um no one's ever saying

(59:41):
things like you're you fight pretty good for a girl,
or like there's nothing like that, like I've I grew
up one of the boys, like you're not getting any
else on the football team, you know. Like so like
in a in a certain way, like if you're just
looking at the like kind of general setting that this
world is placed in your like, Okay, it seems like
women have some sort of parody in this world. But

(01:00:03):
then the movie is still following the guy, you know,
and and because of that, any real conversations are always
about him or happening because of him, or as the audience,
we're supposed to be thinking about what is going to
happen to him because of what else is happening, you
know what I mean. So, and the women are still
framed as like basically just being romantic prospects for him

(01:00:28):
supposed to be like a love triangle that we don't
care about because that's his story, and his whole story
is a is a romantic story, Like even at the
end where he's like rab military, Like what does that mean?
What does that even mean for him? Like what what
decision has he come to outside of just like fascism
is good? I guess I don't know, but he he

(01:00:52):
only has that like the whole journey, that whole character
arc because he joined the military for Karen's like otherwise
he was going to go to Harvard or something. Just
another super weak decision too, because it's also like they
knew that they were going to get separated immediately, Like
his motivation in the movie makes no sense. He knows
he's not going to go to pilot school. He might

(01:01:13):
as well just be going to college, like they would
still be communicating the same way. Like, I don't know.
That was one of the things I thought the book
did better. Is it at least like he was motivated
by something that wasn't just like sure, why not? Like
it just just so strange. I don't know. And then
on the other hand, you have Dissea's character. Oh my god,

(01:01:34):
I'm so fucking frustrated because there's I had to like
text Kaitlin to make sure I didn't miss something. But Diz,
he clearly joined the military to follow Johnny who joined
the military to follow Carmen, And I'm just like, why
are we all? What are we doing here? And then
Dizzy denies that. She denies that she joined the military

(01:01:55):
to follows. Yeah, but then it's like, but clearly she did,
and there's no other nothing else has ever presented. So
I'm like, oh, I guess her dying words are at
least I got you, So she clearly that's exactly why
she She literally had no other purpose in life. That
was also a really weak, bizarre death. See, like both
actors are giving me nothing, Like She's like, at least

(01:02:17):
I saw you, and he was like, oh, like You're like,
oh this is so gross. She's like, at least I
got to fuck you one time in a sleeping bag
like so bleak um. But but yeah, I don't know.
Dizzy is so such a frustrating character because I feel
like Paul Verhoven is almost trying to do this flip
thing of like, look, she's aggressively pursuing him and ignoring

(01:02:39):
his boundaries that he's setting, and it's like that's not
something you need gender swapped. Really, you don't just swap
it and be like is it woke there, like not really,
But what's the interesting is that it's riz Right. That's
her characters. Why did I say rizz her name isn't

(01:03:04):
right Disney. Out of all of them, she seemed like
the one best equipped to be in the military. And
then there is that part that happens to where well, yeah,
I was wondering your your takes on that, where like
they're doing the obsotitcle course and she like knocks the
two guys, you know, into the mud. And then like

(01:03:28):
even like when they first they did something, it was
like her plan that like got them to win whatever
combat training exercise they were doing. And then he was like, well,
you know, like Disney does, he helped. But then like
when it came down to when he got to Pick,
like when he was in command again and he like

(01:03:50):
needed whatever I don't know if it wasn't lieutenant but whatever,
like right hand Man Corporates, he needed a core full
and then he Picks is like, no, I already already
screwed it up, dude. I I love that he is
being honest with himself. He's like, I am ill equipped,

(01:04:12):
I am just a nepotism pick. I just showed up here.
I'm just Gary Busey's son to please don't pick me. Yeah,
and and only then after Gary Busey's son he's probably
got a first name, but Jake. Yeah, So only after
Jake Busey's character, Like it's like, no, I'm not I'm

(01:04:34):
gonna mess this up again? Does Johnny then turned to
Dizzy and be like, what do you want this? Do you?
How about I guess you're right there? So but it's like, yeah,
she has proven herself to be capable, but it seems
like she keeps getting passed over for promotions and on

(01:04:54):
top of that, because I sometimes get kind of like
frustrated when it's like the movie is like I am
feminist because for something like justin almost Mary suing a
female character. But but that doesn't even happen to Dizzy
because we know that she's like a better football player
than Johnny at the beginning, like she's she is the
most athletic character, but then she's like never. It's I'm like,

(01:05:17):
I don't know why they go so out of the
way to have her never be anyone's top pick for anything,
because it was like we're supposed to be in this
post gender world because other women are getting opportunity. So
I was like, well, then, what why is it her
that we don't see, like what's her name? Is flying
up the ranks? I mean Carmen is like Carmen's flying

(01:05:40):
up those She's driving a fucking forward focus in space.
Like it's yeah, I I hadn't even thought about like
comparing their careers, but it's like there's I don't understand
the reason why Dizzy wouldn't be kind of flying up
the ranks because she's more capable and this is supposed
to be a world where it doesn't matter. Yeah, And

(01:06:02):
then I also wanted to talk about women getting fridged
or damseled in this movie, because Dizzy is fridged because
she's killed in combat. And then going back to Carmen
really quick she there's a similar sort of like damseling
scene at the end where it plays out in a
less bad way than I thought it would, where I

(01:06:24):
thought she would like really have to be like, you know,
Johnny would have to swoop in and really save the day,
but she like holds, she chops off the bit you know,
the brain bugs brain sucking tube, uh, and like kind
of like gets away herself. But even so I'm like, Okay,
these women are friends in such a way where they
are horny for the men around them. Whoever is closest

(01:06:48):
to them is like whoever they're most horny for, and uh,
then they are killed or damseled. Usually I choose to
interpret Carmen as never being that interested in Johnny because
it seems like Johnny's bullying Carmen into being in a
relationship with it. It's again that same weird chain of command.
Johnny is trying to bully Carmen into loving him. Meanwhile

(01:07:10):
Dizzy is trying to bully Johnny into loving her. And
then at the end you're like, I'm I don't want
any of it. And then Karl's just like I'm a fascist,
like he's interested in no one. I don't think this
is any credit to the movie. But at the end,
they're not like together. They don't have like a one
of those like kiss, you know, victory kisses that we

(01:07:31):
see at the end of movies a lot of times,
Like she's not She doesn't say anything like we should
have always been together anything like that. It's just like,
you know, they still care about it. It's I think
in the reality of what was presented they wouldn't get together.
Like at the end, she'd be like, you're such a
great friend and we should still remain friends. By the way,

(01:07:52):
just just in case you were, you were must be
friends and fascists like all three of us are. Yeah,
we all the war for you know, killed the bugs.
When ultimately, like Dizzy being fridged kind of like I
feel like feeds into this narrative of like she was
the right girl for him because she was willing to
die for him in the state, unlike Carmen who wanted

(01:08:15):
to fly a chip Like I don't know, the test
audiences thought that, like you should have killed the woman
who wanted a job. I don't know. Ultimately, I was
very uncomfortable looking for feminist messaging inside of a fascist movie,
and that was I was like, women can be Nazis too,

(01:08:36):
I know, it was like this is the reader. If
the reader taught me anything, it's that women can also
be Nazis. This I mean, I appreciate that Paul Verhoved
wanted to say something with this movie, but I just
don't think that he was successful. Yeah, going back to

(01:08:58):
the world building of the story and like the quote
unquote utopia that this movie is taking place within There
does seem to be gender parity in the world of
this story. Sexism doesn't really seem to exist. They tell
us that the movie makes sexist choices because it's a
movie from the nineties, but the world it is depicting

(01:09:21):
seems to be less sexist, and I feel like a
similar thing is happening regarding race, where again the movie
makes racist choices, but like, part of the world building
in this story is that racism doesn't seem to be
much of a problem, which also none of this tracks
for fascism, Like the racism and sexism wouldn't exist in

(01:09:44):
a fascist society, so I don't really understand that. But
the movie, like, yeah, it's making some some weird choices
regarding race. Jamie, you had mentioned that in the book
the characters are Filipino and then that gets whitewashed for
the movie. Yes, And the way the director explains whitewashing

(01:10:06):
it was like he essentially says that he doesn't think
that an audience will understand a world like he's like, oh, well,
if they're fascists, it would feel weird for them to
not be extremely white, which is like I see where
he's going with it. I see where he's going to it,
but but whitewashing the entire movie seems like an extreme

(01:10:27):
end to go to to. I don't know, Like, well,
once again, it's like, sure, but your movie wasn't really
anti fascist in any real way. So like, like again,
it's just one of those things where it just seems
like a it's like a nice thing to say, but
it's like, but that's not really what you were doing.
You know you were you weren't making much of a commentary.

(01:10:48):
Just adding a couple of scenes doesn't make much commentary
on like why we shouldn't be anti fastest, especially when
that everyone wins in the end, Like I don't write
the fascist switch. I uh, that's I feel. Most of
my problems with this movie go back to the fact
that like everything that director describes of like what he
wants to do sounds like pretty interesting and sounds but that,

(01:11:11):
but he just failed at all of those things, like
none of the things happened. I found a quote from
an article in screen Rant entitled Starship Troopers meaning explained
what it was really about love These kinds of articles,
they're like what happened at the end of that'sh I

(01:11:35):
read so many of these articles and reviews being like,
oh my gosh, Star Show Troopers is brilliant satire and
if you can't see that, then well there's something wrong
with you. Um So, as this title suggests, this is
another one of these articles. I've yet to find anything
in any of these articles that gives any kind of

(01:11:58):
convincing exam couples or arguments about saying why and how
the satire is clear and effective. None of them have
been able to exp They're just like, well, you know
a lot of the audiences took the film at face value,
but they're missing the point because well, the movie puts
the characters in Nazi regalia, So that's obvious satire, get it,

(01:12:21):
But it's not obvious satire if the Nazis win, Like
I don't understand how hard that is to explain, because
it's like he's explaining Star Warship that like it's clearer
in Star Wars because they're the bad guys, or if
like even if they do win, if it's so obviously horrible,
like if it's so obviously horrible to us, but again,

(01:12:44):
the motivation, like even having the motivation for Johnny change
because his parents were killed by the bugs. Like that's real.
That's a real thing now, Like now I'm in now
I'm like, yeah, I mean like maybe the reason this
war started wasn't great, but these bugs just like destroyed
an entire city, like millions and millions of people. Like

(01:13:04):
that's a real reason to go to war, you know
what I mean, Like that's a real reason to like
join an army and be like I'm gonna be like
either defend Earth or enact revenge because like you're everyone
you knew was killed, like you know, whether that even
the revenge part, even if that's wrong, you can there's
still like a you know, a touch point that we
all we can relate to it like yeah, man, if
like if everybody I knew was wiped out, like and

(01:13:27):
I had nothing else to live for, like you know,
so that's that's what I'm talking about, Like we and
then we don't get any of that. Like like there's
like a slight satirical thing for him, like when he
when Neil Patrick Harris is there and he's like that's
what we're infantry for. We do the dying, you know,
and blah blah blah does the flying. But then like

(01:13:48):
but then they win and like the guy was proven right,
Like he was like, all right, we captured the like
all of my everything I did worked, you know, and
it was like, okay, so it just like it does
and land at all like it. Well, here's the quote
from this article. Quote in a two fourteen interview with

(01:14:10):
the Adam Corolla Show, a Great Start, Okay, said the
king of perfect takes. What did he say? Michael Ironside,
who plays Um rass Check in the film, Um, who
played a militant officer in Starship Troopers, said that he

(01:14:31):
asked Verehoven why he was making a right wing fascist movie.
To that, Verehoven told him, if I tell the world
that a right wing fascist way of doing things doesn't work,
no one will listen to me. So I'm going to
make a perfect fascist world. Everyone is beautiful, everything is shiny,
everything has big guns and fancy ships, but it's only

(01:14:53):
good for killing fucking bugs. End quote. So the director
clearly wanted a message that was more subtle and like
not super preachy, which I totally understand for certain things,
but I don't think that subtlety is necessarily the way
to go when speaking out against fascism. The other thing
that's hard about this is like it's not like everyone

(01:15:17):
in that world was like we need to kill Like, yes,
the people in the army were like that, but like
we get a sense that there is a world to
fight for, you know what I mean, Like there's a
world to defend for. And the intro to all this
is like the bugs are like hurling asteroids at Earth,
and we know that like an asteroid in real life

(01:15:39):
like killed all of the dinosaurs, So it's kind of like, yeah,
they're trying to commit like a genocide of the human race,
so that's a legitimate reason to fight people. And then
the only suggestion that we get that like humans start
at the war is like these like one liners I
think that come at like two differ in points and

(01:16:00):
it's not explained at all. So and we don't relate
to the bugs at all. So I don't know why
anyone would look at this movie and go, I don't
want to live in this world, because at the end
of the day, I'm like, yeah, like maybe I wouldn't
want to join the military, but I'm glad we have
a military. I'm glad they're doing what they do. So
that I don't get wiped out by an asteroid being

(01:16:21):
hurled at, right. It's like even because it's like we
we have not covered many movies about war on this show, uh,
and I do think like it is like I have
like a lot of different feelings about war movies, but
it's like there are war movies that are well done
that make it like clear the like brutal nous and

(01:16:44):
the different sacrifices and the different reasons that everyone comes
to be in a war, whether they want to or not,
depending on what the war is. And it's like this
movie starts that and then it just doesn't do anything
with it. Like I really do like the group shower
scene in this movie that I feel like it's like

(01:17:04):
the strongest start you get into like some insight into
like why people are you know, why people in list
and like what the different circumstances are that kind of
bring you there instead of doing a wide sweeping like
war and everyone who participates it in is bad. Like
that is like an easy point to make for someone

(01:17:25):
who has never been involved in a war, like I don't.
But then it just all falls apart. Man, it's a bummer, yeah, um,
And then to go back to that conversation about race. Um,
so we have these whitewashed characters, which, like I understand
the intention behind Verhoven's choice to do that. Instead, though,

(01:17:47):
he has the characters be from Argentina and they maintain
their Latin names from the book. So you know, you've
got like Juan Rico, Carmen Ibanez, Dizzy Flores like, but
they're all played by like white American actors. It's weird
and I don't like, I'm just like, well, I don't
know what Argentina is, like you know, seven hundred years

(01:18:09):
in the future when this movie takes place or whenever
it's supposed to take place. But that just felt like
another peculiar choice. And again it's not even like he's
like saying this, but it's like, yeah, but there are
black people. There are people of color like in the film,
Like it's just that they're not they're all supporting characters.

(01:18:31):
Like they're all like minor supporting characters. Like, so you
just had all your leads be white. I don't know,
you can say whatever you want, like, it's like it's
not like you had it's not like some genocide had
taken place in like all of like in this world
there are no black people anymore, you know what I mean?
Or whatever. It is like it's like they're still there.

(01:18:53):
They clearly can serve, like they can reach high ranking positions,
just that we don't know who any of those people
are because you're not focusing on any of them. And
it even seems like to the point where there's kind
of like a revolving door of non white characters where
we meet who's the who's the woman we meet in
boot camp who is partially responsible for the for the

(01:19:13):
guy's head being blown off, and like it's her Johnny
that they're like they're the two people, and then she
leaves the military. Fair enough, I would also be like
this is clearly not for me. But it's like we
we had a strong introduction to her, like she was
like I want to be in politics and like I
have this dream and I was like, oh cool, But

(01:19:35):
then ten minutes later she was like I'm out of here.
I feel like she didn't leave on her own ac court.
I feel like she got like discharged, Like yeah, I'm
not even sure, because then Johnny has to like fight
to stay exactly well, they were going to maybe boot
him and they were like they were like, look, we
already lost two soldiers for this, let's not lose a third.

(01:19:55):
And then it was kind of like, what why do
you want to say that, dude, not that right, black
just kicked out. But the fact that it's not even clear,
because my read was she left on her own accord
because she was just so upset over the death of
this team member of hers so like. But the fact
that it's not clear means that we, like the story

(01:20:16):
doesn't bother to check in with her and like see
how she's feeling or what exactly happened because of the
movie has no vested interest in any of the characters
who are people of color. Yeah, there's no explanation. It's
the basically, we get one image and it's her with
her backpack crying looking at everybody in the background of

(01:20:37):
the scene, like you're like that that was so freight
and then our other I like that. The other black
characters we get to know well are Corporal Sugar Watkins.
And then who is that that there's the dude from
The Walking Dead. Yea, to you, he's dude from the
Walking Dead. To me, he's the guy from Teen Wolf.

(01:20:59):
He's been a lot of TV. I guess he was
also on the wire, but unfortunately, yes, that's right, he's
on the wire. He's a cop on the wire. My
brain doesn't work, and therefore I know him from teen Wolf,
the series that's hilarious. But yeah, Watkins, that character. He's
the guy who sacrifices himself at the end for all

(01:21:20):
of the white people. And we don't meet him till
halfway through, like there he just he shows up in
the middle of the second act, and it's like there's
no there's no non white characters that we get to
see their storyline all the way through at all. I
don't even think any of them survive that, right, I
wonder the other one because there are two black people.

(01:21:40):
It was like him. It was like him and the
and the and that woman right, yeah, whose name? I
feel like I said out loud once what is her name?
So many people die? I can't believe, how did Johnny
live through that attack? By the way, did we ever
talk about that? Like, how did he how did he
possibly vibe? How did they get him out of there?

(01:22:02):
He's not even hood like, he's not even how did
he possibly live? They were gone, everyone had fallen back,
there was like legions of bugs swarming. There was one
that comes crawling on top of him when he's completely pinned,
and we're supposed to we're supposed to believe that not
only did they get him out of here, but they

(01:22:23):
but he survived, right right? Who saved him? I feel
like I I've already stated I do not I'm not
a fan of Xander, but he was definitely better at
war than Johnny was, and he got his brain sucked out,
but when he was surrounded by like one tenth of
the amount of bugs, he got his brain sucked dry.

(01:22:44):
I love the idea that sucking like they can find
out information by sucking the brains like live like because
it's like, oh, they're still alive. So like if we
suck there like live brains will like it's ingestre in formation.
Like I don't even know what that was supposed to be.

(01:23:04):
I will say I do like of the things I
do like about this movie. Uh, I love nasty, nasty
body horror effects, and this movie really does deliver if
you're a fan of nasty body. Dude, people are getting
slow my god like cartoons slaughter. Yeah, Like it wasn't
even close like like they just ripped apart limb from limb,

(01:23:29):
just impaled constantly, just like they're the brains suck that.
You're just like, oh, so it's so I'm hard to
like get grossed out, but there was something I was like, fuck,
that is absolutely disgusting, and I feel like, you know,
it's so funny. I feel like I feel like I've

(01:23:49):
seen I saw this movie a couple of times, and
one time I didn't watch it all the way through,
and I just thought that they just all died at
the end because I was just like, well, there's no
chance they're getting out of this, like when they're well,
like when they get trapped in that like desert things
like there's there's zero chance you make it out of here.
And I feel like that's how this movie should have ended,
which is like everyone die, like just everyone dying, and

(01:24:11):
then it would have been then I would have been
like it is kind of a critique on fascism, isn't
it right? Yeah, fascism doesn't work. The bugs will kill
you one, Um, what a disaster. Truly. Also worth noting
that there are a couple disabled characters, the main one
being roz Check, who is played by an able bodied

(01:24:34):
actor Michael Ironside. His character has an arm that's been amputated. Yeah,
and it's like very very of this era to not
even consider having a disabled actor play a disabled character.
But on top of that, it's like it seems like
his disability is mainly used to scare people, which is
uh also uh not very thoughtful. Uh. Top to bottom,

(01:25:02):
it felt like intentional to be like look at like
the like this is what war does to you. It's
like just dismembers you. And but these people are all
still serving, you know, and they're like you should be
lucky to like go to war and lose a leg,
you know. Yeah, and there's some interesting commentary to be
had there. Did the movie make it? Yeah? Again, any

(01:25:23):
commentary this movie makes is is like passing and suggestions,
but like never the actual point of the movie. Yeah,
you know, I was. I was truly surprised at how
many writers and critics and like have just like kind
of put it all on the line to say that
actually this movie is saying everything. But it's like, well,

(01:25:45):
I don't know, I guess we will just have to
agree to disagree there with all the people who wrote
what you don't understand about Starship Troopers. You tiny brained fool, Like, right,
what did you get your brain sucked out? You don't
even know that this movie is awesome satires, get your
brains gone by a bug? That's the thing is like,

(01:26:05):
there's just like, yeah, there's a little again, We've said
this so many times. There's a little bit, but it's
not enough. It's just I don't know. Yeah, I have
to imagine that this was hard to get a lot
of stuff approved. And it's like, I will give Verhoven
the fact that it's like, especially with the movie with
this big of a budget, like I'm sure that he

(01:26:25):
that stuff that would have he would have liked to
have in the movie didn't end up in there, and like,
but but there's so many high level decisions that fail
that it's like, well, he's got to take he's got
to take the l to some extent. Yeah, it's disappoint
it's disappointing. It's like I was actually hoping that there
would be a lot more commentary than it feels like that.

(01:26:47):
It feels like there was, and it's just like one
of these things where I'm like nobody who believes in
this stuff is going to watch this movie and think
that their way of thinking is incorrect. Like, if anything,
this movie we just reaffirms what people believe, you know,
Like yeah, because that's what that's that's the consequences of
the movie. The gods because of the movie are like, Yeah,

(01:27:09):
this guy is a hero and he saved a bunch
of people, and he, you know, was dedicated to the cause,
and if everybody works together and we're militaristics, they will
always defend our home. Like I don't know, like, there's
no there's nothing else presented for that to for that
to not be thee I totally agree. Yeah, I don't

(01:27:31):
see a fascist watching this movie and then being like,
oh my gosh, I was so wrong. I need to
change my mind. Has a fascist mind that change by
Starship Troopers. That's the true yardstick. And like, I want
to be clear that people are welcome to disagree with us.
I'm sure there are listeners who see this movie as

(01:27:53):
clear and effective satire, especially because, like as director Paul
Verhoeven has stated, that was his intent with the film.
So I'm not arguing about his intentions. And he's coming
from a particularly he's coming from a place where he
is better qualified than a lot of people to make

(01:28:15):
art critiquing fascism because he was raised in Nazi occupied Amsterdam.
My argument is that for me, his intentions did not
come across as clearly as I think they could or
should have if you're trying to condemn militaristic fascist ideologies.

(01:28:38):
I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I and I also like,
I I really, I really love the intent behind this movie,
and I think it's like a really ballsy idea to
be like, I'm going to take this source material that's
really fucked up and I'm going to say the opposite
while using the same story. Like, I don't think that
that's an impossible thing to do, but it just it

(01:28:58):
just didn't work out for this one. We should do
more Paul Verhoeven movies, though, he I mean, what a catalog,
what a legacy. How have we not done show Girls
at this point? Oh my gosh, she simply must shocking.
We'll get there. That's a good one to do for
this podcast, for sure. Yeah, does this movie pass the

(01:29:20):
Bechtel test? I don't know. I think it does. I
think it very very briefly. Does they are standards which
are like, I mean the standards of the test in
general are pretty a little bit. Carmen and her commanding officer,
who is named, but what is her name? She is? Oh,
that was my question. She does get named, but I

(01:29:41):
could not tell you exactly what it is. Dizzy talks
to a corporal as well. That's the other thing I had.
And then Dizzy and Carmen do have one scene where
there at least one scene um where uh, Carmen's like, hi, Disney,
and Disney says Carmen, we know their names, face me
to each other. The like subtext behind that is connected

(01:30:05):
to a boy. Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, who, like,
are you dating my ex boyfriend? Oh my god. The
looks that Dizzy shoots Carmen while Carmen's minding her business
is very funny. But it's it's a loose pass. It's
a barely pass. Yeah, it's a it's a loose pass.
Yeah all right, Yeah. I think something I want to

(01:30:27):
do moving forward, just for like my personal Bechdel test
um analysis is could the conversation that arguably does pass
the Betel tests be removed from the movie and the
movie is no different or like the plot is not effective,
Like is it an important conversation that like informs the story.
If not, then it's like a not good pass. I

(01:30:50):
like that, thank you so much. I mean, it's so
hard for this film because there's like a part of
me that's like, does any like what is the story
really at the end of the you know what? What
is the takeaway? It's so hard to care about any
of these characters. But I guess in terms of like
Carmen's journey, her relationship with the captain, even though it's

(01:31:12):
so barely there, is like informative to like her character
arc in some way, and she does become the captain. Yeah,
so like her the captain like talking to her about anything,
which is generally about her career. It's like because that's
kind of her motivation. So yeah, I guess in that sense,
it's because if her captain wasn't it wasn't a woman,

(01:31:34):
then that this movie would have no shot, right right,
it's not. It simply is not. I don't know, like
I should Should we just do the ratings? Yeah, let's
just do a nipple rating, which is a scale of
zero to five nipples based on an examination of the
movie through an intersectional feminist lens So all things considered,

(01:31:59):
everything we talked about, I'm going to have to give
this movie maybe a half nipple. The women in this
movie are framed in relation to like the men in
their life, or like they're there because they know Johnny
Rico kind of thing, and I just didn't find really

(01:32:19):
any of their arc source storylines very compelling. And then
again the execution of this political satire not being very clear.
I think here's here's what I wrote in my notes,
Team America World Police is more effective satire and condemnation

(01:32:40):
of like military practices than Starship. Absolutely thank you is
like because it's so the intent is so clear. You
can disagree with like the jokes that they do and
and that kind of stuff, but there it's it's it's

(01:33:02):
such an obvious thing of being like, this is how
America sees itself. It's so absolutely and utterly ridiculous that
we see ourselves as the world please because that's really
absolutely yeah. And that's not to say that like that
satire can't be subtle, but if it's so subtle that
it's not really there, such as Starship Troopers, it doesn't

(01:33:25):
really work. Yeah. Um, well anyway, yeah, half nipple and
I'll give it to the bugs because you know they've
just they were just colonized and what did they do wrong? Right? Yeah?
From from intersectional feminist Lens. I I'm giving good zero.

(01:33:47):
I don't want, I don't like, I don't I don't
want to root for a fascist girl boss and I'm
not going to. So I'm giving good zero because even
when the women are portrayed with arcs and with dreams
and with ambitions, um, they're they're fascists. I don't. Yeah,
no nipples, no nipples, none to distribute. Come on, I appreciate.

(01:34:08):
I appreciate the Verhoeven effort. I am. I I like,
I think his work is really risky and and bizarre.
And this just what this one didn't didn't hit for me.
Um yeah, I feel like I'm graving grading it on
a curve and also based on my own expectations coming in.
So I was going to give it one and a

(01:34:30):
half only because I did think that for what the
world was like, they did have women in different positions
and like they had black women too, and like you know,
she like took over the military, and you know they
were like good, like they could hold their own there wasn't.
You know. I just feel like this time period, there's

(01:34:52):
there's so much of that like, oh, your sporty spice,
you know what I mean, Like you're the oh you're
a tomboy like and that that conversation like just truly
didn't even exist in the film, and like people seemed
to acknowledge everyone's skills for what they were and they
didn't like add gender on top of that. Yeah that said,

(01:35:13):
like it's still I mean, it was just completely like
the movies, like like everything the movie says is not Yeah,
it has nothing to do with any of that. But
I don't know, I just I just feel like it
still did more than a lot of films at the time,
which wasn't saying much. But yeah, yeah what a time.

(01:35:34):
We did get Titanic, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, all right,
so that's Starship Troopers. You asked for it. Yeah, but
for the people who ask you happy now, I hope
you're happy. I bet they're not, though, I bet they're
not that they wanted us to be, like it's secretly genius.

(01:35:55):
They're furious with us. Yeah, the people who asked for
it aren't happy, and the people who didn't ask for
our like I didn't ask. They're really unhappy. They're not
listening right now. They're like, I'm upset, amazing, how this
is our worst episode ever. I'm I'm actually genuinely very
glad that we went down the rabbit hole in this

(01:36:15):
one because I feel curious about it for a long time.
And uh, it is, I mean, it's it. I don't
think it accomplishes what it's trying to, but it's definitely unique.
I've never seen a movie like this, and I so
there is that indeed. Jonathan, thank you so much for
being here with us, for joining us in this discussion.

(01:36:39):
Where can people check out your stuff? Follow you on
social media? Yeah, you can follow me at John Braylock
j O N B R A Y L O C
k uh podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood's available
where we get your podcasts if you want to. We
also we talk about films with leading black actors in
the context of race. Um, that's super fun And if

(01:37:01):
you've never seen Astronomy Club on Netflix, check it out.
It's fun. So on Netflix six episodes, a quick binge.
We'll finish it maybe in one city. You simply mus
it's very funny the best. Yeah, yeah, that's it cool. Thanks,
thanks so much for hanging out with us. Yeah, thanks
for having me. This was great. I would love to
Yeah and uh yeah. You can follow us on social

(01:37:24):
media as well, Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You
can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon, patreon dot com
slash Spectel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it
gets you access to two bonus episodes plus the entire
back catalog. So and then you can get our merch
at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. Uh

(01:37:46):
go bugs, bugs Hi

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Starship Troopers with Jonathan Braylock