Stepford Wives (1975 and 2004) with Zoe Ligon

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start
changing it with the Bedel Cast. Caitlin, Yes, why would
you do this? I thought you were my friend and

(00:21):
I was just about to make you some coffee. Oh geez, well, women,
get back in the kitchen. Wait, am I your husband?
Or remind your friends? Okay? Right? And I didn't just
wanted to make you some coffee. Why would you do that?
Truly high comedy? Well, I was gonna try. I should

(00:44):
have added the word like, a word like podcast into
that there. There could have been a transformative joke and
it didn't come. Hey, but this is the Bedel Cast.
Here's the thing I've been. I've been switched out with
an inferior model, and that's why I did that the
way I did. Yeah, well, I here's the thing. I

(01:07):
love you so much more now, thank you so much.
I've given up my dreams of being a photographer. And um,
I am wearing a sheer nightie at all times. She
cooks as good as she looks. Today's episode, I feel
like It's been a kind of a long time coming.

(01:29):
We've been getting this request pretty steadily over the years,
so I'm excited to talk about it. This is the
Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is
Caitlin Toronte, and this is our podcast where we examine
movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test
simply as a jumping off point, and that what is

(01:49):
it even? I don't Oh my god, I've been I've
been turned into a robot, and I don't remember the
things I used to know. Oh my god. Okay, the
seventies robot is so much scarier than the two thousand
four robots. I'm just saying the alien eyes, Okay. The
Bectel Test is a media metric originally created by queer
cartoonists Alison Bechdel, is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test that,

(02:13):
for the purposes of our show, requires that two people
of a marginalized gender with names talk to each other.
Uh for uh, Well, I guess we're kind of changing this.
They're talking to they have to talk to each other
about not a man. Uh. And we're we're switching it up,
aren't we? Caitlin, I mean that we have I guess,

(02:34):
two different ways because we used to say for two
lines of dialogue, but then we were making a change
so that it's like some sort of plot impactful interaction. Yeah,
so as to get rid of the like what would
you like for dinner? Cheese? Like, you know, like non
interactions kind of Yeah, I hadn't that was like something

(02:56):
that I was going to pay attention to it. Yeah,
if we but if we want to implement it for
the whole show, I'm down. Yeah. I feel like it
could just be cannon because what There's been so many
movies over the years that have gotten away with some
really like heinous ones that like and sometimes they're really funny.
But I feel like, um, yeah, it should at least

(03:19):
like I don't know, I guess it's kind of the
like you'll know it when you hear it, Like it
doesn't need to be like influencing the next plot point,
but it's just a meaningful interaction. Whatever beautiful means. What
are interesting the movie to apply the test to, because
arguably the conversations they are having most of the time

(03:42):
are about what nefarious plans the men have and more
they're already robots, So if they've already been impacted by
the men, can they really have a conversation about anything
that isn't related to house cleaning. Let's take this, Let's
take this new version for a spin. Does sounds good

(04:05):
to me? And with that, let's properly introduce our our guests.
She is a sex edutainer. She is the owner of
Spectrum Boutique and author of Carnal Knowledge. It's Zoe Ligan
been so excited to talk about this, well, these films.

(04:31):
I'm a huge horror and thriller fan. And while the
two thousand's version of this film is hardly spooky, um,
you know it's it plays on some very real world fears.
You know that the men in our lives are secretly
plotting against us at all times, like could be some

(04:54):
truth to it? Hard to say. This is also one
of the I would say, one of the better Larry
and so, so okay, we're talking about Originally we were
going to just talk about the two thousand four movie,
but then we all watched both, so it's an episode
about both. But I would say that this is one
of my top Larry King cameos, not on b Larry

(05:19):
King in B movie level, I think that's kind of
the golden standard for Larry King cameos. But this was
a pretty good one. At the end, I thought, agree
that it's nowhere near his his peak, which is of
course in B movie. I mean, unbelievable Christopher Walkin Christopher.
I just so many good at Midler, so many good, good,

(05:42):
like wonderful actors in this two thousand four version, and like,
but they're just like they're not given very much. They
are not. So what is your history with the Stepford Wives? Um,
just overall any of the movies interacting with the property
in general. Absolutely. I watched the two thousand and four

(06:06):
movie probably right when it came out. I then was
such a fan that I owned it on DVD, watched
it many times. I was so excited to rewatch it
for this podcast because I knew it was going to
be one of those films that was like deeply embedded
in my psyche, and and it was exactly as I expected.

(06:28):
There was like little moments that like I like unlocked
parts of my memory, Like especially the Docy dough scene
where she's twirling out of control. I was just like,
I'll never forget this part O. My god. I hadn't
seen the seventy five version and decided to watch it

(06:50):
the night before. I watched the two thousand and four version,
and I am so glad I did, because what a
different film. I mean a premise. I mean the main
difference between a comedy and a horror is people living
versus people dying. So you know, very different outcomes, similar premise,

(07:13):
And now I want to read the book. I haven't
read it. Same yeah, same. This is the second adapted
I mean, like really famous adapted property from this author,
because this is the same author as Rosemary's Baby that
we've covered covered a couple of years ago. Um Ira
eleven so kind of an iconic writer who very often

(07:36):
wrote about the expectations of women. Um So there you go. Yeah, Caitlin,
what's your history with this stuff? For wise, I saw
the two thousand four movie at a drive in movie
theater in two thousand four when it came out. This
is a good drive in movie. Yeah yeah, I had

(07:58):
just graduated high school because it came out June two four,
so I think I probably like went with either some
friends or my mom, who knows, But I saw it
at the drive in, and I think that was the
only time I had ever seen it, and I did
not I had not seen the version, but I did
watch it the other night, so I'm fully prepped to

(08:23):
talk about others. Just oh my gosh, there's so much
to cover, Jamie, really, what about you mine? I think
kind of similar. I remember watching The two thousand four
when at a sleepover shortly after it came out. Good
sleepover movie, Yeah, yeah, and really liking it. And I
remember being like, oh, it's like, I don't know, being

(08:45):
like young enough that I was like, oh, it's Inspector
Gadget and Carella de Ville and the lady from Milan
Rouge and oh. I remember my aunt being like Faith
Hill in a movie because she well, really this was
the two thousand four. One was a fun rewatch for
the high volume of two thousand four themed jokes in it,

(09:09):
like a Vigo Mortenson joke, Orlando Bloom, Orlando Bloom, Meredith
Vieira Is has a really strong cameo like early two
thousands reality shows, just a kind of a lot of
stuff I did that felt was like normal at the
time that I'm like, whoa, this is David. I'm really
getting old. Um. And then I saw the seventies when

(09:31):
over the summer, I kind of just like watched it
on a whim and like really really really liked it, um,
And it was like it was fun to go back
and watch again because they feel like it. I don't know,
it's it's the strengths that these adaptations have are very different.
Where it's like it feels like the two thousand four
when the pacing of it, in the look of it,

(09:52):
it's like it keeps it moving. It's it goes quick.
The seventies one can drag a little bit. But then
I mean, I'm are excited to talk about how the
like the two thousand four one got studio notes into
saying nothing by the end, Like God, I honestly forgot. Yeah,

(10:14):
I forgot how the two thousand four one ended so differently.
I was like, damn, they really thought they were doing
something there. That's wild. Um. Yeah, And I should read
the book, but I simply we don't read books on
this podcast. Before we'll stay it again. I almost reread

(10:35):
the Da Vinci Code, but it wasn't It wasn't available
at the library, and they're too busy with your rhinestone Swordfish.
My rhine Stone Swordfish is killing me. Like I'm so,
I'm so late on so many things. But I have
you know, I have like two hours left of my
rent Stone Swordfish and then I can move on with

(10:56):
my life. So what I've done for this is I'll
recap the two thousand four one. But I feel like
then we can just go into in our discussion, we
can just like note the differences and similarities and stuff
like that. That's that's my plan. Okay. So the two
thousand four adaptation of Stepford Wives opens on Joanna Eberhart.

(11:20):
That's Nicole Kidman. She's the president of a TV network.
She's literally dressed like Elizabeth Holmes. It's like the girl
Boss while she's in full girl Boss made. She's at
an awards show presenting a few like popular reality shows
that she has worked on. Um but everything goes hey

(11:41):
wire when a man who had been screwed over by
one of her programs, Yes, I can do better the show.
I can't believe they made Nedge s Neebly the Assassin
to move. What a plot line that just throw in there, really,
because hell, what happens is that he shows up and

(12:04):
tries to shoot Joanna and had also shot his wife
and several of her lovers that she met on the
reality And it's like all of all of Joanna's reality
shows are very early two thousands in that they're like
the theme is a very rigid gender binary like and
that's the whole show. But the movie wants you to think, like, oh,

(12:27):
look how empowering these shows are for women, But it's
like by early two thousands standards. So see, I wasn't
even sure. Like there was so many moments in this
movie where I was like, is this like I know
that they is it satire to them? Or is it
am I supposed to? Like? It's so totally confusing because
it's like looks like a satire. Everything is so over

(12:49):
the top and how it's stylized and presented, but then
like most of the story doesn't. It's so confusing because
I was like, oh, they're like you know, like you know,
pair readying this era of reality TV at an eleven,
but like I don't. I didn't understand what my takeaway
was supposed to be. Right. Uh So, basically, the network

(13:11):
not wanting to be associated with Joanna any longer, they
fire her, and being fired gives her a nervous breakdown,
and her husband, her husband Uh Walter Cresby played by
Matthew Brodrick, comes to visit her in the hospital and
she tells him that she wants to get away and

(13:33):
start over. So Joanna Walter and their two kids moved
to Stepford, Connecticut, which is this extremely wealthy, extremely white,
gated community. They arrive and are greeted by Claire Wellington
played by Glenn Close. She shows them around the neighborhood

(13:55):
and she points out the Men's Association, which is this
giant country club type place where the men of the
community hang out. Uh and then she says that the
women slash wives of the community hang out in this
day spa. So Joanna meets all of them and they
are all rocking this like nineteen fifties housewife aesthetic. They're creepy,

(14:21):
they're weird, except for one woman who she meets who
appears to be normal. Bobby marco Witz and her her
husband Dave played by John Lovetts and John high school
high um. And then they also meet a gay couple

(14:48):
Jerry and Roger, and Joanna and Bobby befriend Roger, but
then something happens at this Fourth of July party where
one of the wives Sarah Sunderson, that's Faith Hill, right,
I think, yes, yeah, I could not pick Faith Hill
out of a lineup to save my life. That's kind

(15:08):
of her thing. She is. My aunt was obsessed with
Faith Hill. So I've got I've got the radar, God,
i gotta got it. So Sarah Sunderson, she can't stop
spinning around this is and it's almost as if she's
a robot whose malfunction. That was another thing that struck

(15:33):
me about the two thousand four when they give it
away so early there's no mystery to it at all.
To find that in the first scene, you're like, oh, yeah,
Faith Hill is clearly a robot. Well I have a
theory about that. So yeah, the main narrative device and
the two one is suspense, whereas the is mystery. And

(15:56):
for anyone, for any listeners out there who were like,
what's the difference, but satically suspenses when the audience knows
more than the characters, and mysteries, when the characters an
audience know the same amount of or no or don't
know the same amount of information, that distinction. Thank you
so much. Um I teach the screenwriting classes. Anyway, I
would just starting. I mean, I just think that it

(16:17):
fails in this one. It's well. My my theory for
that is that because Stepford Wives as a concept was
already so familiar to everyone, there's no point in trying
to like make it a mystery in this in this
movie by two thousand four, even as a tween, I knew,
I knew what I was signing up for going into it, right,

(16:38):
So they were like, well, let's just do it suspense
because everyone already knows has a general idea of what
a Stepford Wife is. So that's I'm guessing why they
did that. But anyway, so Mike Wellington ak Christopher Walkin
shows up and he fixes Sarah Sunderson. Um, Joanna is like,

(17:00):
what the fuck? Um, she's also wearing like all black
to this like Fourth of July party where that's covered
in pastels, and she looks she's like wearing like a
cocktail dress. That's right, I do love it. And then
Joanna's husband, Walter gaslights her and makes her think that
everything's fine and that she has to change herself and

(17:24):
fit into this community. So Joanna starts wearing pastels and
doing household chores. And then she, Bobby and Roger go
to visit Sarah Sunderson to see if she's all right,
and they find what is clearly a remote control that
controls Sarah. I would love to have one of these,

(17:46):
just like a replica prop at remote. It's a good
prop it is, yeah, But they're like and they're toying
around with it, and we see like Sarah b controlled
by it in the background, but they are not privy
to what's happening, so they still don't know. It's still suspense. Meanwhile,

(18:08):
Walter does learn what's going on, which is that the
Stepford women are robots, but we find out that that's
not even true, that they've just been like nano chipped
in their brain way more way, more friendly too, because
you know, there is no death and murder occurring. It's like, oh,
it just modified your brain. This is a comedy now, right,

(18:34):
because in the in the book and in the seventies version,
the wives are being murdered and then replaced with lookalike
and like androids that only have like huge pupils for eyes.
They're so scary. Yeah. Um, but anyway, so the Stepford
women or Stepford wives are being turned into these like

(18:58):
perfect little housewives that look hot and wait on the
men hand and foot. So Joanna and Bobby they know
something strange is going on, so they sneak into the
men's association to investigate, but they get caught and have
to run away. But then it seems that Roger, their
friend Roger, has gotten the like step for treatment because

(19:21):
he's suddenly completely different. He's running for political office now,
even though he's an architect. He's a yeah, he's suddenly
a Republican. Yeah, to appease his husband, yes, what is
the husband wanted from him all along? And another Republican
husband never? Oh god, so scary. And then Joanna is like,

(19:45):
that's it, Walter, we're leaving, and he's like, okay, we'll
leave tomorrow. And that night Joanna finds the remote control
with her name on it, and so she starts to
do some research and she discovers that all of these
Stepford women were formerly powerful career women. They were CEOs,
they were judges, there were a bunch of girl bosses.

(20:08):
But obviously they are completely different persona wise, looks wise,
et cetera from who they are now. So Joanna goes
to Warren Bobby, but oh no, they've already gotten to Bobby. Yeah,
Bobby's portrayed as like borderline horder when we first meet Bobby,

(20:28):
to really emphasize the dichotomy, I mean, you know, not
that bad. But there's this dramatic scene. It's like, oh,
where's the floor. I can't see the floor. It looks
like she's like a freshman in college. More like a
freshman in college. Yeah. Um. So the next thing that
Joanna knows, she is surrounded by all the men, and

(20:50):
Walter's like, I'm tired of you being better than me
at everything. And then Mike Wellington Christopher Walkin explains the
whole process or they take the women, they insert nano
chips into their brains and program them to be these
complacent trophy wife women. They then do the process to

(21:12):
Joanna and turn her into a Stepford wife, or so
we think this scene, this is where it's like, what
is going on? That scene? That scene where it's imagined
like I will get there. I was so I was
so frustrated by the end of this movie. Yes, but
then Walter, I guess, realizes the error of his ways

(21:36):
or something. They make out. They kiss, and which like
upsets me because I'm like, oh, you just learned your
husband wants to make you a robot and you just
go kiss him like this. But this is what wakes
him up, and he's like, oh, I shouldn't have gone
like all of a sudden, it's like, wait a minute,
I love my wife nothing yet, like for even that.

(22:00):
But it's like when they're sinking into the floor, we
have to think that Joanna does think she's about to
be turned into a row. There's telepathically communicated, and he's like, actually,
I'm not gonna It's like Jamie, a kiss is telepathic communication.
If it's true love between a husband and wife, of
course it's oh my god. I was like, how is

(22:22):
she not breaking up with him? He was so ready
to turn her into a robot? Like, so why is
it she running away? No consequences here, right, Oh there's yeah,
there's so much to talk about their um but anyway,
so there's this big ball that happens, and Walter speaks
away and hacks into the main frame and starts reversing

(22:43):
all of these stufford programming in the women's brains, and
it turns out that Joanna had not actually been transformed
into a Stepford wife. She was just faking it too.
I guess, create a diversion. Um. And then Mike Wellington
is like, well to you suck and he goes to
attack him. But then Joanna hits Mike not coming. Um.

(23:10):
She she knocks Mike Wellington Christopher Walkins head off because
it turns out he's a robot. This was more fun.
This was like more fun. Yeah, this this is a
fun moment. So it turns out that Claire Wellington had
programmed her robot husband Mike to do her bidding. The

(23:31):
whole Stepford wife thing was her idea. She like explains
her master plan and her motivations and stuff. It mostly
makes sense kind of. How she managed to get away
with a double homicide and then take over a small
town is just we don't know. We don't know what
I mean. You have to hand it to her. Women

(23:54):
are powerful, um and I have fruit feminist icon when
you think about it. Um. Then she accidentally electrocutes herself
to death I think by kissing Christopher Watkins robot head.
Oh yeah, the disembodied head. Yes, this is hilarious. Then

(24:17):
we cut two six months later, where Joanna, Bobby and
Roger are guests on Larry King at the rest known
as b Larry King be Larry King. Um. They've done
this whole like expose about the Stepford community. Um. And
then we cut to the men of Stepford now doing

(24:38):
all of the domestic chores because they're like under house arrest.
And then now they they're the ones who go grocery
shopping bern the And let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. We're back.

(25:00):
Should we go over just kind of like the some
of the broader differences between the two movies before we
kind of jump in because they Kaitlie, you like broke
down perfectly how the genres are different and how it's
you know, unless you had rent the book, you know,
you would go into the movie not knowing that the

(25:20):
women is robots now and so it really like builds
that tension throughout of like, well what is going on here?
But I really like what I liked so much more
about the one is that you get to like know
the people who live there in a meaningful way. And

(25:41):
so it's it just like I think that that's like
the main that and the way that it ends is like, oh,
this is clearly satire. This is clearly saying something. Because
at the end of the seventy five movie, um, there
is no secret Walter was good the whole time, and
she's turned into a Stepford wife. That's how it ends.

(26:02):
She's murdered by her alien double, which is super fucking scary,
and she becomes a Stepford wife and it is like this,
you know, commentary on womanhood at this time, and there's
you know it. It certainly has its flaws, but at
least it's like there's a clear point, uh there's I
feel like you got a lot more out of the

(26:23):
Joanna Bobby friendship in the seventy one as well, because
they are like actively investigating what's going on for the
whole like they like try to start a women's club
and they and I also thought that Joanna's I don't know,
I'm curious what you what you both think here. I
thought that Joanna's job situation made more sense to me

(26:45):
in the seventy one as well, Like, I think it's
funny that they chose for her to be a high
powered reality show producer in the two thousand four one,
but it doesn't really come in anywhere like where in
the seventies one. Joanna isn't a aspiring photographer, and it
felt to me kind of like she she was not
yet successful. She's kind of nagged by her husband for

(27:08):
having this dream. She's insecure about it, and it's like
a part of her character. And then she she like
gets closer to her goals, and the closer she gets
to her goals, the more her husband resents it like
it just has like an active part of the story.
I mean, there weren't as many women's CEOs in nineteen Also,
I think you're a percent right that it's a sign

(27:29):
of the times and how it was portrayed. Yeah. The
other thing is the one thing I do like about
the two thousand four version, which, as you would expect
from a movie made in two thousand four, doesn't get
this quite right or go all the way. But the
two thousand four version focuses more on like the commentary

(27:51):
being made, because both movies are providing commentary to varying
degrees of you know, efficacy and success. But the two
thousand four version focuses on male fragility and like comments
on male fragility in terms of like the men feel
inferior to and emasculated by their powerful wives, so they

(28:13):
basically turn the women into these complacent, trophy wife like
domestic robots with no personality and no autonomy so that
they can feel superior again. And that's like a very
real thing because you know, the patriarchy conditions men to
think that they should be like superior and if they, like,
if they make less money or if they don't have

(28:35):
as impressive or powerful as a job, then they are
inferior to you know, the women in their lives. So yeah,
there's a power imbalance in the two thousand and four
one that doesn't exist in the seventies version, right, And
I think that's like an interesting and worthwhile thing to
comment on. But again, like the two thousand four one
makes a bunch of other really weird choices that make

(28:57):
this like not the most effective. Jerry, Yeah, I felt
like on this rewatch, I felt I was kind of bummed.
I left like not liking the two thousand four one
as much as I feel like I poked a little
my little nostalgia balloon for it, because it's just I
feel like we we really don't know that much about

(29:18):
any of the characters to the point where it's like,
even when they're making those like really you know, clear
points about like you know, Walter feels emasculated and like
all this other stuff, it just the pacing of how
we got there felt really strange. Like the way the
characters reacted to things was like just kind of I

(29:40):
don't know, it felt off where Joanna, you know, Walter
is like I need you to completely change who you are,
and Joanna, who we are led to believe is this
like really headstrong person, is like, oh my god, you're
right okay, and then all of a sudden, like Walter
flips to super filling really quickly, and it's like I

(30:00):
just wish I knew a little more about both of
them to understand like how that happened. It just felt like,
I don't know. Even even though it's it makes sense
that you need to update the roles and try, you know,
try to like reflect where gender roles were at in
the year the movies being made, like of course it
should be different from the seventies one, but it just

(30:22):
felt like, I don't know, like things just happened so
like clunquily, like when he was were either of you
thrown off when Matthew Brodrick was like, you can't wear
black anymore, and and then she's like, okay, I guess
I'm never going to wear black again. I'm like, this
isn't who I was told this character was. Like. He says,

(30:43):
only high powered, neurotic castrating Manhattan career bitches where black,
It's that what you want to be. And she says,
ever since I was a little girl, which is funny.
I'm like, okay, that's like girl Boss canon. Okay, that's horrific,
but also it's like who funck Like it's I don't know,
it's it seems like and I guess. Reading about the

(31:04):
production of the two thousand four one, it seems it
seems like Frank Oz who also this movie was directed
by Yoda Um crystal Um, it seems like he really
wanted to go full satire in lines like that, You're like, okay,
that's like where the full satire is, but then it

(31:27):
it Scholarly journal Wikipedia indicates that Paramount was like, really
not okay with the level of satire he wanted to
do in the level of over the toppiness, and so
they made him change the entire ending, which kind of
undercuts everything. And I would, I mean it, I bet
that there's like a funny satirical movie that was like

(31:47):
shot but it just like was not really ended up
on the chopping floor. Whatever's bummer because it's like there's
a ton of like potent. I would. I would like
to understand their relationship a little better because it it
end up kind of like I don't know. I liked
that scene where Walter was like, I feel emasculated and

(32:10):
threatened by you, And I liked that Joanna in that
scene didn't apologize and she was like, yeah, like you're
really lucky to be married to me. You're lucky and
I am better at sex and I was not going
to didn't mine that the line I remember from the
original watching as well, that's so funny. I just wish

(32:33):
I understood more about their relationship, or their relationship made
more sense to me. I don't know, because like, how
could the husband turn on you know, it's like if
we're going to believe, okay, like he could turn on
her in this instant, Like I want to know more
context for what that relationship was like if they have
kids together, Clearly they've been together a few years at least,

(32:55):
and they also disappear their children in this one, I
was like, what did you even bother having them? But also,
like Walter, it doesn't make sense because he leaves his
also very high powered job as a TV network vice president.
He's just like one step below her. Also, if he
leaves that job, how do they afford living in this mansion?

(33:18):
But anyway, like why would he got good severance after
ed sneeply came after? But if his whole thing was
like I want to be more powerful than my wife, like,
wouldn't he keep his powerful anyway? More importantly, I think
the problem here is that in the two thousand four version,
which I didn't see in the nineteen version, was that

(33:40):
Joanna's character is so wildly inconsistent in the two thousand
four versions because like, first she gets fired and then
she's like, maybe the man who tried to shoot me
was right, Maybe I've become the wrong kind of woman,
And it's just like, okay, well, like there's nothing wrong
with self reflection, but like for you to be like

(34:00):
the man who shot me he was right, uh, is
because she's unbothered right after it happened, as well as
unbothered to like two minutes after, she's like, oh my god,
I'm totally fine, going like you need to sit down, honey,
just like capitalism has enshrouded me and a bulletproof vest

(34:20):
of money. Like it's so I I thought that maybe
what my guest was of what they were going for
was that like, she's a very high powered executive, but
she also has this deep insecurity, which is like that's
worth exploring, but it just it doesn't come through, and
it does come out as like inconsistent, right because the

(34:42):
next thing is they arrive in Stepford, she like right
away notices that things are weird, especially with the women,
but Walter's like, no, things are actually really normal, and
like part of this is like I don't want to
fault her because she's very clearly being gas lit by
her husband, but she just keeps kind of flip flopping

(35:03):
where like then she's like, Okay, you're right, I'm a mess.
I'm gonna start, you know, wearing pink and doing and
like baking cupcakes. But then a few scenes later she's like, no, way,
things are really weird. And then a few scenes later
she's like, no, I'm going to join the book club
and then a few scenes later she's like, no, I
should investigate, Like it's just like she's just going on

(35:24):
this like loop of doing one eighties all the time.
But in the version, the Joanna character is like consistently
like something is really fucked up about this community. She
doesn't like ever waiver from trying to figure out what's
going on or like thinking that something is amiss. So

(35:46):
I think it's just like kind of a poor writing
choice to make Joanna so inconsistent. I agree, even though
it's like, I mean, in the seventies when we're clearly
in you know, second wave feminism, and there are so
many elements of it that kind of dated. But it's
I just liked her journey a little more because it
was even though there are moments in the two or

(36:08):
in the nine seventies one where she does kind of
try to appease her husband. She's like, I'm sorry, like
I I didn't, but it makes sense in context at least,
Like it's it doesn't seem like she's just like doing
a one eighty for no reason. It's like, oh, she
feels guilty because her husband is telling her she should

(36:29):
feel guilty, and like just kind of this like the
subtle negging that takes place in their relationship over time,
I thought was like pretty effective and like more realistic
than than you know, how the two thousand four characters
interact with each other one. It's also set up in
such a way where the husband Walter was plotting all

(36:50):
along to have her turned into a robot. There's this
revelation in the one that he'd already put a down
payment on the house before she had even signed off
on the house, and she brings that up as you know,
their dirty laundry that they've clearly, you know, been having
arguments about. But it's very clear that he was pulling
strings to influence her to move out to Stepford, whereas

(37:14):
in the two thousand and four one it seems like,
you know, there was no ulterior motive all along, and
it just they just stumble into this world of robots
instead of like, I'm gonna blackmail my wife and convince
her to move out to the country. And also we
don't really have any contexts for as to why they
leave New York in the one. We see this scene

(37:37):
in the beginning of one where they're loading into the car.
Somewhat random person is carrying a mannequin around in New
York City and one of the kids goes like, I
just saw a guy carrying a naked lady daddy or
something like that, and one of them goes, Yep, that's
why we're moving to Stepford, so we don't have to

(37:57):
see that anymore. Like it's like the depraved city of
New York is what has scared them away into the
safe suburbs. Almost. Yeah, I kind of was wondering. It
was like I wonder I sort of assumed that that
was like a commentary of the time of like the
suburban culture of the seventies and like the ways that
people would like the reasons people would have for justifying

(38:19):
a move like that, and even it's like it's interesting
to watch Joanna kind of slowly be like I didn't
want or that. She's kind of right away like I
don't really want to be here and like I can't
pursue my dreams the way I want to here, and
he's kind of like, no, no, no, you did this
was like basically your idea, and this is a good idea,

(38:41):
and you can take pictures wherever, so like shut up
and go to bed. Yeah, we can make a dark
room for you, like right right, and like it's I
don't know, I thought that. I mean, the one is
like a William Goldman script, so it's like also, I think,
just in the hands of a really icon incapable writer.
But like the deterioration of their relationship is more trackable.

(39:08):
I don't like, I don't understand why she's married to him,
but I never understand why, why why straight couples are married.
So it's like that's kind of a wash. But in
the in the two thousand four one, I totally agree.
So it's like the fact that Walter is not clued
in from the beginning kind of like makes his character
really confusing, Like I don't know it just they go

(39:31):
from playing battle bots in the men's club, they literally
have these battle bot robots, and then directly following that
and again in the two thousand and four one, another
one of the guys like, hey, let me show you
a party trick. Hey, wife, come on over here, and
then we have the infamous scene that is what stands
out in my mind the most from my original viewing,

(39:52):
is inserting a credit card into the wife's now a card,
you know, and with drawing cash all of a sudden,
all the men look to Walter to like see how
he's going to react, because this is the big reveal
like look our wives or robots um, which also makes
no sense with the fact that they're not really robots,

(40:12):
they just chips in their brain. But so then after
a long pregnant pause, he goes she she gives singles,
and then everyone like you know, bursts into laughter because oh,
thank god he's one of the boys and he gets it. Yeah,

(40:32):
And then with him he he they give him this
redemption arc because even though he's been gaslighting and just
awful to Joanna throughout the whole movie in both movies,
but I'm talking specifically about the two thousand four version.
He again, will you touch on this, but so weird
that Joanna is just like willingly going to go down

(40:56):
into like whatever the the lab or she is going
to be turned into a Stepford wive. She's just like, well,
I kissed my husband and I guess now she just yeah.
So for her to like again so much, that's another
part of the inconsistency of her character, where like she's
going like, oh, something's weird. Actually no, I should assimilate

(41:18):
and then to the point where she's like, all right,
I'm gonna go down here and get turned into a
Stepford wive. Whatever. I guess, I accept my fate. Yeah,
And then at the end where she got I forget
what the exchanges. But it's so corny and like Nicole
Kidman's like that's a man talking about did not turn
her into a robot? Like, oh my god, because he's

(41:41):
a real man. Yeah, what is this the artist stick?
Where he using? What a disaster? Yeah? This is the
bar is that's so low for our husbands. Now it's subterranean.
It's in the robot basement. Is where the bars. That
made me furious because so I like, I get I well,
I don't like it, but I understand why this choice

(42:03):
was made from like a screenwriting point of view, where
like they need the reveal that Joanna isn't actually a
Stepford wife, she was just faking it. But what that
does is it gives Walter the opportunity to like basically
redeem himself and then like it just gives him more
agency because he's the one going around and like liberating

(42:23):
all of the women while Joanna is just kind of
like sidelined. And then like you said, like it gives
He's like, I didn't marry someone something from Radio Shack,
and then Christopher Walkin goes like, oh, that's a shame.
And then Nicole Kidman is like, no, that's a man.
Why should make her say that? But yeah, the movie

(42:46):
wants you to be like wow, feminist icon Walter, what
a hero, and we're like no, Like why is he
getting this redemption arc? He's a piece of shit. It's
so like it's I I don't even super mind. It's
like we're going into this the two thousand's one with
with like a cultural understanding of what a Stepford wife is.

(43:06):
We need to find a new way to like the
reveal can't be that their robots, because we know that
if we go to see the movie. But this choice
specifically is like, oh my god. Like the early two
thousands was such a I feel like, as a lot
of media is coming out right now, the late nineties
and early two thousands was such a horrible time for

(43:29):
for really like any marginalized group. But it's like stuff
like this the I'm like, wow, we were like thirty
years prior, there was so much more productive discussion in
this same story about you know, gender roal expectations, Equal
Rights Amendment was happening right then. The book was written

(43:51):
in seventy two, and you know, I don't know when
one was filmed, but you know, there was this discussion
and like revival of the Equal Rights Amendment for the
first time since the twenties. And you know, here we are,
and there really hasn't been any revisitation of the Equal

(44:11):
Rights Amendment up until the Harvey Weinstein Me Too era.
So it's almost like in the early two thousands there
was this idea that we were so much further ahead
than we really were. I think it's interesting because it's like,
I so we've covered these two IRA eleven adaptations, and
it's his I really like, I don't know anything about

(44:32):
him personally. I hope he's not horriful he's dead. But
in terms of like these two stories, I do think
his approach is pretty consistent in that he writes these
stories that are that make pretty sharp commentary about the
expectations of women in this time. And also in his stories,

(44:53):
the women normally lose. They like fight valiantly against the
oppressive patriarchal force, and in both stories they fail, and
it's and We like had this discussion a couple of
years ago on the Resemaries Baby episode where it's like
we were like, well, what does that mean? And it's like,
I think it just kind of unfortunately was like a
reflection of a lot of efforts for equality, and like

(45:17):
it's not that you know, Rosemary or Joanna were not capable,
and it wasn't that they were like you know, not intelligent,
were able to figure out what was going on. It
was the great point in both of those stories. Even
when they figure out what's going on, they just have
that knowledge and then they're crushed by the opposing force anyways,
which is like really bleak, but it feels like a

(45:41):
more like it's just saying something, whereas like this update
of the story is like saying what I don't know,
here's what it's saying. It's saying that because what happens
is Claire Wellington becomes the villain, this mastermind of this

(46:01):
project in her in her motivation, she explains her motivation
and it's then m my, my husband cheated on me
with a younger woman, so I had to kill them,
and then I had to punish every woman I've ever
met ever since then I liked this better when it

(46:21):
was vill mkelly in Chicago. That I mean, and I
see what they're trying to if you if I want
to give them credit and be like, oh, what's this
commentary saying it's like, yes, women can be a huge
opposing force, uh, you know, against the liberation of and feminism, etcetera.

(46:41):
Um so totally, but just like such poor execution if
that was indeed the intended takeaway, right, yeah, we're like
even like story wise, like I honestly it's like corny
and it's not really accomplishing what it's trying to. But
the Glenn Close reveal at the end, I'm like, fine, sure,

(47:03):
Like it kind of reminded me of like the caitl
was was the like the Cabin in the Woods reveal
at the end where you're like, it was this woman
the tie, isn't it Sgourney Weaver at the end of
Cabin in the Woods where she was like, I'm the
bad I'm the spy, and you're like, alright, I guess, um,
like it's not. It's Glenn Close and she's clutching you know,

(47:26):
Christopher Watkins like decapitated head, like android head, exposed wires, sparking,
which makes no sense again if it's brain chips, Like,
how does any of this happen against gotta suspend your
disbelief here. Yeah, it's so I just wish like even
story wise there unless I truly was like watching this

(47:50):
at zero percent, uh, Like I don't. I didn't feel
like there were really many clues given that it just
come for me. It came like out of nowhere. I
was like, like, there's no foreshadowing for that twist, which
you would think the movie would benefit from. But yeah,

(48:11):
like Zoe, you were saying, there are women who are
very much a part of like upholding rigid gender roles
and like patriarchal standards, like that is unfortunately something that
still happens. But and I don't know if this I
don't think this movie is even trying to comment on that,
or if it is, it doesn't know how because like
Joanna is doing the same thing with her fucking girl

(48:33):
Boss acts. It's like inadvertent perhaps, Well it's that thing
that we always talk about where like there have been
a bunch of movies written by men that show women
being just like really petty and jealous and in competition
and like catty toward each other, but they don't take
a like even step one to examine why that might be.

(48:56):
And they're just like, well, women are petty, so obviously
they hate each other. It's the same kind of thing
were like. And I mean I don't even know enough
about this about like why certain people, you know, just
have ideologies or like vote in certain ways that are
in direct opposition of their own self interests. Like that's
a very complicated issue. I have theories about why, but

(49:18):
like it's a lot of factors involved. Yeah, yeah, there's
a lot of things. Um, but this movie only goes
so far as to say, well, Glenn Cloak Claire Wellington
loves romance and beauty and Chiffon and her husband cheated
on her. So yeah, so now she just wants to
turn every woman into a beautiful robot lady who will

(49:39):
never misbehave it says, yeah, Like it's a very like
I was like, we should have put this justification through
a few more drafts, like because it's I don't if
we have to get to Glenn close is the big bed,
like and we have this like woman who's working against
the interests of other women. Find but it's like just

(50:00):
come up with a different story that was such a
week justification. But I guess she dies two seconds later.
I don't. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's
so it's like, so this movie is so like campy
and fun and then but then plot wise it's so boring.
I'm confusing. It doesn't make sense. Very yeah, bizarre movie.

(50:23):
I did appreciate the Glenn closest character says that she
created robot Mike because she says that she here's what
it is. She kills real life like her husband and
like her husband's mistress or whatever, and then she turned
she does create a robot because she was like an

(50:43):
engineer and brain surgeon or something like that in the
former world Higher and another another girl boss, I guess.
But she another also like vilifying a woman in stem Um.
But I was gonna say, yeah, um. But so she
creates a robot version of her husband, So I think
he's the only one who's like a real robot except

(51:05):
for the A T M Lady. I don't know if
it's confused, we're boob inflation lady. Oh is it faith? Yeah?
I think it's faith. Like she there's when they find
her remote they like play around with the buttons and
in the background they're not able to see this, but
Faith's boobs are like inflating and deflating and like being

(51:27):
controlled by it. I think my impression was that they
were all robot, Like it's not all the men because
they're like, oh, the men are next, but yeah, he's
like the one male robot. All the women are becoming
robots and then she's gonna but to the men. I mean,
it doesn't make sense, and like it just this. I guess,

(51:48):
like I kind of struggle to understand where the two
thousands movie lands on women in position of powers in
the end, like it is it just again a friend
that's really inconsistent because it's like, well, everyone in the
movie seems to agree that um neutralizing a powerful woman's
brain is bad, but it's also implied that Joanna being

(52:10):
really into her job was bad, and it's implied that
or it's like, I mean, the Glenn closest character clearly
feels and there's no time to challenge it because then
the movie is over that her being too invested in
her career lead her to murder somebody, which is something
that happens to Glenn close in movies all the time.

(52:31):
I like, I feel for her so much. She's like
just thrust into the fatal attraction ship all the time
for sure. Yeah. I it is super confusing about like
are these women just like humans who have been nano chipped?
Because when like Matthew Brodwick's character liberates them at the end,
they seem to like go back to their human self.

(52:53):
It's like the technology disengages all of a sudden, which
is why you know it can't be both. So I
don't know. So which what isn't movie robot? I don't know,
But I did appreciate when Claire Wellington is like explaining
her whole master plan. She's like, well, then I created

(53:13):
my robot husband, Mike because I needed a man that
other men would listen to. And it's like fair. Yeah,
that reminds me of um oh, that story with Penelope
gaze in from like five or so years ago when
she was starting her clothing or when she was starting
when she was working on a project called which C,
which is like a UM shopping site, like as an experiment,

(53:37):
she and her business partner um and I might be
butchering this anecdote, but she and her business partner, like
didn't experiment where they answered some vendors as themselves and
others with this fake male CEO they made up. And
the responsiveness that they got to the I think like
they they would just sign their emails Ken and the
way and the white people would talk to them was

(53:58):
like different way, better results, and they're like, thank God
for Ken, because I mean, as a CEO myself, I
can't tell you how many emails I get that begin
dear sir all the time, you know, and it will
be like a mass email, but it's always dear sir,
you know, oh my gosh, yeah. Or people, you know,

(54:22):
people make all kinds of assumptions about me as a CEO,
Like you know, people think, oh, you know, I must
have a money man, or oh, like, who's the guy
who need this happen? You know, it's it's wild all
the assumptions people make about you so frustrating. There was
that other story. There's this story that came out where
like a man and a woman had the same job

(54:43):
at the same company, but people were always getting frustrated
with the woman because she didn't seem to be as
efficient as her like male counterpart. And then they looked
into why this was, and it was because her correspondence
with people, because people like, we're like, oh, I'm dealing
with a woman, so I have to like, I don't
trust her that she's like saying the right thing or like.

(55:05):
So there was just so much more like back and forth,
whereas when the man was corresponding with with people, people
were just inclined to be like, all right, if that's
what you say, then okay. Um, And so he was
able to be more efficient in his job. That's not
even yeah, that's not even God. I hate that. There
are so many examples of this that it's approvable track record.

(55:28):
Well that was so okay, good points for points for um,
what's their name, Beef Wellington? Uh for that for that.
But but that's almost just like a throwaway line. Um. Anyway,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
for more discussion. And we're back. I really want to

(55:55):
talk about the inclusion of a gay couple in the
two thousand and four one, which there is not in
the seventies. It's Tina Louise in the seven Yeah. I again,
while I have not read the book, I was researching
the differences between the book and the movie, and the
book actually has a plot point that was left out
of the seventies rendition. So in the book there is

(56:20):
the first and only black residence of Stepford, Royal and Ruthan,
and they are not included in the two thousand and
four one either. That plot line has changed into Roger
and Jerry. And while I think it was likely chosen
to change that because it was two thousand and four,

(56:40):
like the cultural moment of talking about lgbt Q plus rights, etcetera,
but that's also like, clearly we know that the issue
of racism I personally have felt would I wanted, I mean,
I didn't want to see that tackled certainly by either
of these adaptations. But I did find it in interesting

(57:00):
that there is a very clear point made about the
whiteness of Stepford in the book that seems to be
completely left out of both film adaptations. That's why I
wasn't aware of that. It's the in terms of the
I think that the fact that there is a black
family moving to Stepford is in one like it's mentioned

(57:22):
in the seventies mention. But then that's okay, that makes
more sense to me because it's like then you never
meet those characters. Uh, that's that sucks. I mean, it's
not I mean, obviously, Hira Leven is probably not the
most qualified person to be um leading that discussion, but
the fact that there were black characters and obviously like

(57:47):
the extreme whiteness of the Connecticut suburbs, it's like there
is more than enough opportunity to have a productive discussion
there if either of these movies were actually the hiring
black creators that could speak to it. Um, which neither did. Um,

(58:08):
that's that's so frustrating. Yeah, I mean, and again it's like, yeah,
they tried to change it into shining a light on
homophobia instead of shining a light upon racism, but it
really didn't even have that much to say about homophobia,
to be quite honest. It was just like, oh, let's

(58:30):
randomly include a gay couple, okay, and in fact it
just does a homophobic thing where the movie suggests that
it's like kind of reinforces this problematic notion that in
a gay couple there's still like one person's the man
and the other person is the wife, because like Roger
is kind of like foisted into this like Stepford wife

(58:53):
role because he's he gets the treatment, he gets changed
his his husband husband, Um, uh, what's I forget his name,
Jerry like wants him to like tone down his just
like more conservative. Yeah, and like he wants him to
kind of assimilate into this straight, heteronormative Stepford lifestyle. This

(59:17):
made my head hurt because it was like the way
that Roger was treated. First of all, he's played by
Roger Bart, who is a street actor who has played
a number of iconic, very stereotypical gay roles. He also played, um,
the I don't remember the name of the character, but
the guy from the Producers, the gay character in the Producers,

(59:40):
that's also Roger Bart. So I don't know, it's I'm
sure that there's a wide variety of opinions, but it
seems that Roger Bart is very commonly cast to play
a stereotypical gay character. He is not a gay actor,
So there's there's some ship going on there. Uh. And
and the fact that there's just like Roger as he's

(01:00:02):
written in the movie is like a Vario stereotyped character. Um, definitely.
And then it's sometimes the person making the point of
like like when he's post stepforded and now he's a
gay Republican. Uh. Then the person who makes the point

(01:00:23):
of like, wow, this character was really stereotyped. Are the
people you're supposed to be angry at. Like there's that
moment where Walter is kind of gaslighting Joanna because Joanna
is like Rogers different, like they got to Roger and
he's like, well, what do you mean. You know it's
a don't stereotype him, blah blah blah, and it's like
it was so weird, like the flaming hoops. Yeah, it

(01:00:48):
was mind boggling. An interesting thing that I read reading
about the differences between book and movie, and this is
from a blog called Beyond the Front Cover. It seems
like one commentary that is made in the book, and
again I haven't read it, so this is just this
blog's take on it, is that ruth Anne, the black

(01:01:10):
woman who has moved to Stepford, thinks that the wives
are being cold to her, not because they have turned
into robots, but because she is black. So she believes
that the reason they are so anti social is because
she's black, not because they are robots, which I don't
know how I would be very curious to see how
that's written into the book. Again summary from a blog

(01:01:31):
I literally just googled. But you know, that seems like
it's more than just a cursory like, oh, let's just
randomly include a non white couple, let's include a non
straight couple, etcetera. It seems like maybe there was a
little bit of thought put into it. But again, I
have to read the book to get to do my homework.
It seems like, I mean, it's like, yeah, again, we

(01:01:53):
were not a book reading podcast here, but it does.
It does seem like Ira Levin has a good track
record as a writer of including social issues thoughtfully, and
it's it's so telling that, yeah, that that was just
in both nineteen and two thousand four, like had included

(01:02:13):
we're not gonna we're just gonna skip that. I don't know,
I I it's really hard to watch movies with and
let's be real, so many like look at the Golden
Globes or the Oscars, it's all white nominees. But it's
like watching these films that you know, whiteness is such
a large part of the oppressive suburb conformity, and that

(01:02:37):
is just a whole chunk of it completely left out right,
which is frustrating because the setup of this story is
uniquely suited to comment on like oppressive whiteness. You're in
a Connecticut, a rich Connecticut suburbs, Like where is a
better place to kind of make those points? Which is
where I feel like it. You know, even when both

(01:02:59):
of these movies are making the occasional like feminist point,
it's still very centered in upwardly mobile white women the
way that you know, most movies UM tend to be
when they get this far, Like it's just really it's
I kept writing down, like this is the perfect setting

(01:03:19):
to address like this so much, and they just don't
even try, Like yeah. Jordan's Peel said that he was
largely inspired by this property by the like Stepford Wives
kind of premise and get Out, And I feel like,
you know, that's obviously a movie that like does yeah,

(01:03:42):
because there are some pretty um interesting similarities between you know,
Stepford Wives and get Out, um the creepiness of conformity.
And I love watching Stepford Wives as someone who like
I definitely as someone who sells sex toys for a
living m A. You know, I have an unusual career,
but when I was a teenager, all I wanted to

(01:04:03):
do was fit in and be normal. I just wanted
to wear ugs and a north face and be normal,
and you know, and then I became a little alternative
later on. But uh, I think that's such the beauty
of it is. I think so many of us are
either aware of or are trying to fit in, or

(01:04:24):
we are aware of how painfully we don't fit in.
And there's so much to explore with this concept. It's
a wonderful premise. I would love to see you further adaptations.
And I know that there were some like eighties and
nineties spin off like The Stepford Children, the Stepford Husbands

(01:04:45):
that were like TV series. I think, um so t
B d on Like what is or is not explored there?
I'm not going to hold my hopes high, but it's
I think it has stood the test of time or
you know, at least forty fifty years, because there's so
many universal themes of otherness, of perfection being something impossible

(01:05:11):
to attain as a human yet we try to do
that anyway. Um, and also just having that be something
that's synonymous with a very narrow way of living your
life and conformity even in the way you make your
home you know that's there's a lot there. Well, while
the movie, these movies don't tackle well, the one thing

(01:05:34):
that they do is very lightly mentioned how Bobby Markowitz
is Jewish in a community that is largely probably like
Protestant Christian um and the two four movie more than so.
In the nineteen version, Bobby introduces herself to Joanna as

(01:05:55):
Barbie Marco and then say something like it's like the
upwardly mobile version of Marco Witz, so she's basically like
christianizing her name. I missed that, um. And then in
with that Middler in the two thousand four version, there's
that whole scene where they're like talking about like the

(01:06:15):
Christmas Collectibles book at their book club, and she's making
a bunch of jokes about how she's like unapologetically Jewish,
and then all of the other women are like, well,
you can make a minora out of pine cones, and
like they're just like not getting it. Um. But that's
really all the movies do as far as like commenting

(01:06:36):
on any kind of diversity or lack thereof. It's like
one mentioned, one mentioned, one joke, and then it never
kind of comes back. I al thought it was kind
of I mean it was at least even if you know,
we've talked a lot about like the level of effectiveness,
but I think that it's possible. One of the reasons

(01:06:59):
that this story endures as well as it kind of
like is I don't know, I feel like gender, like
expectations of gender, even though they change over time, and
they have become fortunately far less binary over time, and
there's a larger discussion being had, but there is kind
of like this I don't know, like historical tendency of

(01:07:19):
like that you see like different versions of the same
theme popping up in the seventies and the two thousands
of at least I mean in the US. And then
I think, generally I'm not a historian. I don't know,
I'm a comedian, So throw an egg in my head
if I'm wrong, But like a tendency of when society
is like kind of at quote unquote low, there's a recession,

(01:07:41):
there's a war going on, women and marginalized people in
general get more power because it's like, oh, we all
need to band together. And then when there's times of
kind of excess and economic growth, um, the binary kind
of creeps back in a in a pretty inside yes, way,
and it's like you see that in like World War

(01:08:02):
two years and then in the fifties when there's this
big economic boom, all of a sudden, women are back
in the house, and you see it again in the eighties,
and then you know, in the nineties and two thousands,
the economies in a slightly better place, and you see
these like stories about you know, just domesticity and like
expectations for women kind of come back. And as much

(01:08:25):
as like I think we've like moved certainly in the
right direction over the years, it's like almost depressing to
be like, oh, I understand why these two move, Like
I understand why this movie would make a comeback. In
the early to mid two thousand's, it seems like a
time where those like pressures were kind of making a return.
I mean, even just like with Black History Month, where

(01:08:47):
now in Women's History Month, and as like as long
as you need a you know, history month for it's
it's you know, as long as that is something, it
means that yep, there's still a power and balance and
ship is still fucked up. If you know, we're gonna
just emphasize this one marginalized group during a certain period
of time, you know, yeah, there's and with the two thousands,

(01:09:12):
it's like the movie does reflect that women have more
power than they did in the mid seventies, but the
the you know, reaction from the patriarchy is worse, and
they're like, you know, taking going to even further extremes,
and they're like, you know, threatened to a greater extent

(01:09:34):
than like my wife wants to take a picture on
her nicon, should I kill her? Like, yeah, that makes
it a lot more. Uh, it's a difficult pil to
swallow that there was like really, I mean again, not
that being a CEO means you deserve to be turned
into a robot, but at least at least we're like, oh,

(01:09:54):
he was feeling emasculated and had to set the record
straight versus like my wife, who already was pretty much
a housewife, I'm going to make into even more of
a housewife. Right. Well, I imagine that part of it
was that Joanna in the seventy five version mentions that
she was dabbling in women's lib when she was living

(01:10:15):
in New York, And it seems like a lot of
the women in the community were into women's lib before
they were murdered and turned into robots. Um, because there
are mentions of different women either leading or participating in
like a woman's group in Stepford, and their husbands were

(01:10:36):
clearly threatened by that, hence turning them into robots because
a lot of men do not like women having freedom
and autonomy. Um. I made a list, classic me, I
made a little charge. Um. Some of these we've already
touched on, but I wanted to just kind of go

(01:10:57):
through the differences between the two thousand four in nineteen
seventy five versions of the movies, just kind of reiterating
that Joanna in the two thousand four one keeps trying
to like assimilate and adopt the Stepford Wives lifestyle, even
before there's any indication that oh, did she or didn't

(01:11:18):
she gets like actually converted, but she keeps being like, no,
I am going to wear pink, and I am going
to make a million cupcakes and I'm gonna do like
She's like trying to assimilate power of positive thinking right
for like four question mark reasons. We're never quite sure why.
Part of this is also that she expresses no interest

(01:11:38):
in trying to return to her career or do professional
work of any kind. There's no like, well, maybe the
TV thing wasn't actually for me, but I'd like to
pick up this other thing. There's just like absolutely no
whereas in the nineteen seventy five version, which I feel
like is more realistic or at least more consistent with

(01:11:59):
the character that joe Anna has been established to be,
that she does continue to pursue her like career ambitions
and her passion for photography. She and Bobby try to
start like a women's group to help liberate the women
of the community. And I really one of the scenes

(01:12:19):
that stuck out to me about the one, I really
do I love frank Oz, I love the production design
on the tooth as of her one, but the seventies
one is like, I don't know, I just like it
so much better that this scene in. I also like
the Joanna almost cheats on her husband in the in
the first one too, even though it kind of goes
nowhere and they make it seem like it's Raymond Chandler.

(01:12:40):
But that also it was confusing. But the scene in
in the first one where she is talking with the
gallery owner, she's trying to like she's really nervous, she's
feeling really insecure about her work. He's kind of like,
even though he's like, I like your work, he's kind
of dismissing her as like being hysterical to an extent.

(01:13:02):
But she like says really clearly this thing that it
was like, oh my god, Like it doesn't. She says like,
I just don't want to be forgotten, like I I
want my Like she just wants her life to have
meant something beyond being someone's mom and someone's wife, which
is like, you don't get that moment for like that

(01:13:23):
updated moment for Nicole Kidman Joanna, and I feel like
you could really use it and it could have made
an interesting statement on the time period it was coming out, definitely,
And then yeah, just like the large chunk of the
movie is Joanna and Bobby like going around to the
different women in the community being like, hey, we're forming
this women's liberation group basically like a place where we

(01:13:46):
can bond with each other and speak freely about, you know,
our issues and concerns. But it it ends up fizzling
out because the women who join only want to talk
about cleaning and baking um because is unbeknownst to them,
these women are actually robots. But like they put so
much more effort. Basically, this whole list is like reasons

(01:14:08):
why the nineteen version of this movie is better, but
like they actually like put in effort, and like Joanna
is a more consistent character throughout another than we touched on,
but like Walter gets a redemption arc for no reason,
and like is the one to like liberate the wives
and save the day, Whereas in the nineteen one, like

(01:14:33):
Walter becomes abusive and it's clear that he's bad, and
he is, and in that way she gets a hit
him in the head with a fire poker and that's fun, yes,
And then that kind of connects to like the main
villain in the two thousand four one is this woman
who wants to punish all women because her husband cheated

(01:14:54):
on her with a younger woman, Whereas the main villain
in the n is the Men's Association an a k a.
The patriarchy, which makes more sense to me. Yeah, let's see,
I think we've Yeah, we've gone over everything else pretty
in depth. I have some notes from the one that

(01:15:15):
I'm looking at my notes on each movie, and the
notes I took on the nineteen just like are just
make more sense it feels like I'm like looking at
like a more complete like piece of work here, because um,
there was like more subtle imagery. The whole thing is
a little bit more subtle. But like one thing that
really stood out to me is right when they move

(01:15:36):
into the new house, Walter in he is just like,
oh what if we have have you ever had sex
in front of a fireplace? Oh? Like what if? Like
let's christen every room in the house. And like there's
this really big theme of like I view you as
a sexual object, and that is in line with me

(01:15:57):
basically wanting to turn you into a human sex all
um that is living and breathing, and you know, again
as a sex toy salesperson. I think the idea of
sex dolls is definitely something that just kept popping up
in my brain. Um, how a Stepford wife is like
the You know, I'm not saying that people who buy

(01:16:17):
end use sex dolls are looking for anything remotely like
a Stepford experience, but I think it raises questions in
the average person that are much similar. It's like, oh, well,
you know, why would you want a full size doll?
Like what does it say about how you feel about women?
If you want this, doll um. Another thing I noticed

(01:16:38):
in the seventy one is that the things that qualify
as accidents seem very mundane. Like there's a scene where
there's like that fender bender in the parking lot in
the and they're like, oh, call the ambulance, and you
just get the sense that like, nothing bad ever happens here,
Like like the most delicate issue is a one call

(01:16:58):
which I think, you know, boz us the suburbs. And
then um, finally a line I wrote down from the
see and I believe this is Joanna talking to Bobby
earlier on when they're kind of like trying to figure
out what's going on. Joanna says, it's perfect. How could
you not like it? But I don't like it? And

(01:17:19):
I love that line because she's like not able to
put her finger on what's creepy about it and recognizing like, yes,
this is idyllic, and like, I know I'm supposed to
want this, why don't I want this this? I just
thought it was a very telling line that was really
well written. And I don't know if that was directly
out of the book or whoever adapted the script wrote that,

(01:17:42):
but I thought that was a beautiful line that is
kind of the pinnacle of the creepiness of Suburbia. I
totally agree. Yeah, there's just there, there's just so many
elements in the in this in one that just felt
more botful and like subtle in a different and it's like, well,

(01:18:03):
you know, the Frank ozz movie is not trying to
be subtle. That's not its mission. But I just thought
it worked well and I wish something that I think
could have carried over into the two thousand for adaptation
but didn't was the fact that, like Joanna and Bobby
are like really good friends in the seventies when you
like understand like you get to see them kind of

(01:18:24):
form this bond. They're very much on the same page.
They're very complimentary to each other, They're like rooting for
each other. They're kind of each other's main source of
like you know, just feeling like reality. Yeah, and it's
and so I feel like in the seventies version, when
Bobby turns and she's Stepford, it you really feel it,

(01:18:47):
and you're like like you can feel how devastating this
would be for Joanna. But when it's funny, when that
middler turns, but you just don't have that same level
of relationships. They're kind of ever on the same page
because Nicole Kidman can't she's too inconsistent seconds. So they
don't really get that bond because they're they're never really

(01:19:09):
on the same page. Um yeah, I don't know. Was
there any other stuff we want to Does it pass
the back del test? And I think I think even
with our with our new caveat of meaningful conversations that

(01:19:29):
do not um mentioned men, I think it happens much
more in the seventies one. But it does happen in
both definite. I will say that. And I said this
earlier on when we're talking about it. It's like funny
to put the back dealt test to a movie where
there is like this, you know, even if you are

(01:19:51):
talking to a robot about cooking and cleaning, it's like, well,
the brain is their brain is being controlled by a man,
so are you really talking to you know? So it's
like that's a fun little caveats to throw in there. Sure, Sure,
And then there's I mean, there's plenty of conversations between
two women who have not been yet turned into right

(01:20:12):
robots about it's mostly about do you think we'll be
robots soon. But in the in the seventies, when they
talk about like Joanna's career ambitions, they talk about like, hey,
I was a women's libert like there's like a lot
of ship going on, like you get good. They talk
about their kids, they talk about like talk about a

(01:20:35):
lot of good stuff. Oh, I guess that was my
Like I guess the way that the kids are treated
and that I think they just should have written the
kids out of this. There shouldn't be I mean even
in the seventies when the kids kind of also disappear
a little bit, I feel like it was like kind
of telling you. I think that there is this like
I can't describe it, like there is this impulse. I

(01:20:57):
feel like maybe we've talked about this before where if
you're like, if your female lead is a mother, she
has to be like a really good mother and it
has to be pointed out by the story. Like I
think that that's something that kind of happens a lot.
I don't know what it is. It's not necessarily bad,
but it's just okay. Like yeah, if you're if you're

(01:21:19):
listening to this and you're like that makes sense to me.
I feel like I've read about this somewhere before, where Yeah,
it's like pointing out that, like, not only is she
our hero, she's an amazing, flawless mother, like because that's
how the patriarchy sees went in, Right, you're a mother,
or you're a daughter, or you're a sister, or you're

(01:21:39):
a lover, but never all at once. Madonna whore complex
for sure. Yeah. Yeah, and then I guess I guess
it's cos without saying unfortunately that both of these movies
were written and directed by then um, why is this?
I honestly think this is a story that could be

(01:22:00):
adapted well again, definitely by people who would have any
insight into what this could feel like. Truly. Yeah, I
guess that brings us to our nipple scale, which is
our scale of zero to five nipples based on how

(01:22:21):
the movie fares. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens,
I I think I have to like give two different
scores for the two different movies here. While I appreciate
that both movies attempt to comment on the kind of
rigidity of women's expected roles in society under like what

(01:22:49):
the patriarchy expects of women and how that's like a
very interesting thing that is extremely ripe for discussion for
our show, especially uh seventy version, while it's not perfect
and there's some you know, things that it leaves out,
and it is both movies are very much like these

(01:23:10):
white families, ignoring any kind of what a black family's
family's experience would be, or any family of colors experience
would be living in a predominantly white suburb. So yeah,
there's there's there's things that it could have handled better.
But for the seventy one, um, I want to give
it like a maybe even like a free h Yeah,

(01:23:36):
that's hard. I was trying to think what I'd give it.
I don't know. I think like a three or three
and a half, especially for for like a movie like
kind of adjusted for like time inflation, since it's like
a nineteen movie. I think it has a lot of
really interesting points to make and just it handles like

(01:23:57):
the satire in the allegory, in the tone of it
all way more effectively. Whereas the two thousand four version,
I think I would only give like a one point
five or maybe a two. Like I think there are
again the examination of like male fragility and like the

(01:24:18):
fragile male egos of like all the husbands who couldn't
live up to their wives and who felt threatened and
emasculated by them. That's a real thing that happens, and
that's worth you know, examining. But again the movie it's
just like, well, but you know, the patriarchy isn't actually
to blame. You know who's to blame, Glenn Close, Yeah,

(01:24:43):
I did. I am never like a big fan of
that decision. It works for me in the two thousand
four one because of like, well this, you know, all
the other points failed, so I guess it's one ship
should at least fail in a way that is funny
to me. Um, yeah, I'm gonna go three and a
have on the seventies one and one and a half
on the two thousand and four one for for mainly

(01:25:05):
the reasons described. I'm honestly, I'm like, maybe I'm just
a big fan of the seventies one. I almost want
to read it a little higher. But I think for
for its time especially, you know, it's kind of like
that rare, rare one where it's like a movie written
and directed by a man, adapted by a book written
by a man about women that somehow didn't end up

(01:25:28):
being deeply condescending and horrible to women. Our bar again
is such so low. I mean it's like I give
I give the New one a half nipple, and I
give the seventies one like one and a half nipples,
because while it's addressing, like like the women's rights aspect,

(01:25:49):
it's just like there's so many I think if I
read about what was left out, that really just rocks
my my judgment of that as well, um the fact
that it was written into the book and then you know,
seemingly intentionally left out or maybe edited out, who knows,
but uh, yeah, I'm I'm a generous reviewer, so I've

(01:26:12):
been trying to like batten down the hatches and be
a tougher reviewer these days. I do. I think it's
worth mentioning that on letterbox, which I am an avid user,
of the seventies one has like an average rating of
three and a half stars and the two thousand and
four has an average rating of two and a half stars,
so it's a full star less so average viewer would

(01:26:35):
agree that the seventies one is overall uh the Rotten
Tomatoes score for the two four movie the critics scores
on Rotten Tomatoes so quite rotten that and only only
a thirty percent for the audience score. So audiences also
don't like this movie. Yeah, I don't think people liked this.

(01:26:57):
I think that like we we I think like Stalgia
for us, maybe yeah, nostalgia nostalgia and like I like, yeah,
I liked Sleepover, I liked driving movie theaters. The best
thing about the frank Oswind for me is like the
set design. It's so cool and so like gorgeous and

(01:27:17):
like dated and kind of ways that are appealing tonight. Um,
so I think, like, yeah, that that design is way
better in the new one. It's really expensive looking, and
it had a ridiculous budget, had like a ninety million
dollar buy and made only about that much at the
box office, like it was a big profit turner. Turns

(01:27:39):
out like generally, you know, it's uh, Women do like
movies that are promised to be about them, to actually
be about them and not this bizarro matth Matthew Broderick
Redemption arc. How many times am I going to have
to watch a Matthew Broderick Redemption arc. I also read that, um,
the set of the two thousand four movie was really

(01:28:01):
tense and no one liked each other. Yeah, I read
that too, Oh my god, juicy Frank Ozz was kind
of throwing shade. He's like, well, I wish Bette Midler
wasn't bringing her problems onto the session. Like okay, sir, okay,
there's who knows, who knows, but it seems like no
one liked each other. And Matthew Broderick has also bad

(01:28:24):
mouth the movie. No one enjoyed it? Oh I did
not know that, I know, right. It kind of made
me a little more attached to it. I'm like, oh,
was so this was hell for you as well as
uh me watching it now chaos on off screen? Yea, truly, Zoe,
thank you so much for joining us to talk about

(01:28:46):
I genuinely thank you so much for having me. I
loved getting to do this deep dive and really like
think critically about the films I watched instead of just
like god, I've been watching so many movies that taking
notes intentionally on them was really a nice change of
pace for me. Thank you. You're so Welcomeme. Yeah, thanks,

(01:29:08):
thank you. This has been uh what what a what
a wild journey this property has been through over the years.
I feel like I've been turned into a robot and
then turned back. So we workn Where can people check
out your stuff, follow you online? Et cetera? Great question.
I am thong Gia on social media, so the word

(01:29:31):
thong with r I A after it. Uh. My sex
Way store is shop Spectrum boutique on Instagram. And a
new thing that I a journey of an embarking upon lately,
which may appeal to some of you listeners, is a
Disturbing movie discord, which I've been calling the ft up
movie heads thread. So if you want to join that discord,

(01:29:57):
please feel free. We'd love to have you talk about
some weird movies that disturb us. Nice well, we'll link
to it. You can follow us on social media Twitter
and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our
Patreon a k a. Matreon. It's five dollars a month.

(01:30:17):
It gets you access to two bonus episodes every month,
plus the entire back catalog, which is up to nearly
eighty bonus episodes. Now it's out of control. It is
um and uh yeah, I would say um. Check out
The Suffered Wives if you've never seen it on YouTube

(01:30:42):
and and also get out another watch just for the
hell of it. Skip Skip the Frank oz One. I
had to pay three dollars to watch it, and I'm
never gonna get over it. Sorry, ridiculous. Um. You can
check out our march at t public dot com slash
at the Epactel cost You can get masks, you can
get stuff. You can live your life or not, we

(01:31:03):
won't know. Um. And on that note, I'm gonna go
down to my basement and just pull my head off.
Oh yeah, I'm gonna figure out how to get an
eight GM and I want to get a cash system
set up in my stomach. Just spit up. I'm I'm

(01:31:26):
a feminist icon. So I'm gonna find a man robot
and I'm gonna make him do all my bidding for me. Wow,
I love it. I'm gonna go tell my boyfriend to
pick up the groceries at Costco, just like the end
of the actual two thousand and four movie. I'm gonna
go say, hey, go get all my groceries for me. You'round, man,

(01:31:48):
and it's time for that tables to turn things. They
are a little different these days, I know. I'm like,
that's what a shitty punishment like the grocery store rocks.
It's fun. Yeah, Colm, We all love anyway anyway, you
know why? Fine, Bye bye

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Stepford Wives (1975 and 2004) with Zoe Ligon