Suspiria (2018) with Alissa Nutting and Alyson Levy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechde Cast, The questions asked if movies have
women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
Beast start changing it with.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
The Bechdel cast. Hey, Jamie, Heyklin.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Sorry, that's mother Caitlin to you.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm I'm definitely not a mother.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Also, no, no, yeah, it's it's in a way. We're
all mothers and we're all here at this dance academy and.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Something something World War two, it's something something Cold War,
and it's all feeling kind of profound, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
And we're witches. Surprise.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I mean that's not really a surprise. You figured that
out pretty early.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
The real question is why does Tilda Swinton look like
the six Flags guy when she's playing the I could
I could not. I guess I went into the movie
knowing that she plays the psychologist, which great, But why
does she look like the six Flags guy?

Speaker 4 (01:15):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
She does as the psychologist? Or yes, yeah, I think
she looks more like the Six Flags guy for that
character who doesn't speak and stebs herself in the neck.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Oh that's true because that has the glasses element. Yeah,
she's so versatile. That is Till the Swinton in that
role too, right, Yes, that one I think is more
obviously Till the Swinton. That would be an interesting piece
of clickbait to read is Till the Swinton characters ranked
by how much they look like the Six Flags guy. Sure, sure,

(01:49):
she should play the Six Flags guy in a biopic.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
Oh I'm not mad about it. Okay, hello, and welcome
to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, that didn't pass.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
It well, yeah, six Flags, But I think if if
you're talking about the Six Flags Guy as played by Till.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
The Swinton, I think it does. But she's playing a
male character. I don't know. Six Flags Guy, tricky. Let's
get semantic right at the beginning of the show. I
think that's that would really hook in listeners. It's just
like Dakota Johnson hooks her vagina question mark. We'll get
into that later.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Oh my god, the hooks. Yeah. Anyway, this is the
Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlyn Derante, my.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where
we look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist
lens using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point
for discussion. But Kitlin, what is that?

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, it's just a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Allison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test, originally appearing
in Alison Bechdel's comic Dikes to Watch out For in
the eighties as a bit as a goof. It's since
been used as a popular media metric by people such

(03:07):
as us. But again, we only use it as a
jumping off point. Our version of the test is that
two people of a marginalized gender must speak to each
other about something other than a man, specifically the Six
Flags guy, for two lines of dialogue or more preferably,

(03:28):
some narratively substantial conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah. A lot of movies don't pass. This one does,
and so you know, you can just sort of wash
your hands of wondering. Passes very early and consistently, and
no one talks about the Six Flags guy. And that's
actually one of my bigger criticisms of the film. Yeah,
but historically they couldn't. I think he wasn't, you know,
a popular figure till the nineties. Let's get our guests

(03:53):
in here talk about two guests who love to expect
foor grotesque motherhood in a very different way.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Indeed, yes, they are the creators of Teenage Euthanasia, which
is currently available to stream. It's Alison Levy and Alyssa Nutting. Hello, welcome,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
I don't think they talked about any man in this
movie at any point alone for two lines in a row.

Speaker 5 (04:25):
I am wondering if the six Flags guy is its
own marginalized gender perhow.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
And then what if Tilda Swinton actually is the six
Flags guy? That was my like, do we know that
she's not?

Speaker 3 (04:41):
We don't know that she's not.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
That would be a really good long con. It's like
when you learn that JK. Simmons is the Yellow Eminem
and you're like, what it all comes to? Oh, Kitlyn,
I love that. I got to tell you that he's
been the Yellow Eminem for like at least ten years,
probably longer. I yes, I know.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
It's also like when that one stormtrooper in The Force
awakens who has like two lines of dialogue and is
getting like force mind controlled by ray as she's like
discovering her powers. Is Daniel Craig what but you never
know because he's in a stormtrooper costume.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Good good for him.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
I find that fascinating personally.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Anyway, it's it's no yellow eminem for me, but I'm
happy for him. Yeah, that's a fun. Okay, Okay, we're
talking about Suspiria, the twenty eighteen adaptation by Oh God,
Italian name I am not, I'm gonna fuck it up.
Luca Guagnino, Y Guadanino, Ewen McGregor. Ye, just list of

(05:50):
names I've never said correctly, Luca Guadnino, most famous. It's
his first movie. I didn't realize this was his first
movie after Call Me by Your Name. It's kind of
a wild follow up, but obviously not the first adaptation
of this movie that was in nineteen seventy seven by
Dario Argento. And will sort of talk about the like
changes made to the twenty eighteen movie, because it's a lot,

(06:13):
it's about an hour's worth of their stuff.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
They're very different movies. Yeah, and I imagine we will
just cover the nineteen seventy seven Suspiria in a different
episode at some point.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah. It's very it's very very different. Yeah, but first
I guess with I would expand this to either Suspiria Alyssa.
Let's start with you. What's your history with the Suspiria
expanded universe.

Speaker 5 (06:41):
Okay, I do want to Like, I read that Tilda
wore a prosthetic penis when she played the German Psychoana. Yeah,
and that that kind of eclipses a lot of sort
of like what I I don't know thoughts I had
about the film. And there's a great gift of her

(07:03):
from this movie eating Wings. That's also just like a gift. Yeah,
I want to put out there if people haven't seen
that gift, like, you can send it. You can send
it for almost anything. It's kind of one of those
universal it's like, oh blood, you know what I mean,
Like any any situation can use Tilda eating Wings.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
But yeah, I mean I loved.

Speaker 5 (07:26):
I loved the original and was really excited for the
new one. I didn't I didn't expect it to be
as different.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
I guess I'll begin there.

Speaker 5 (07:38):
But you know, I like being aroused and frightened at
the same time, So I'm a I'm a big fan
of both.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
Sure, it's a horny movie and it's a scary movie.
It's accomplishing a lot of emotions.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Check check Alison, what about you? Either Suspiria both very
uns well.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
I see like two horror movies a decade. I'm like,
I don't like the feeling of being afraid. I don't
like the manipulated feeling of fear. But for some reason,
I did see this movie when it came out in
the theater, which again highly you know, not regular for

(08:23):
me to do, and I liked it a lot, which
also at the time seemed, you know, people just decided
they hated it or something, but I don't know, but
I liked it. And I watched it this morning at
kind of yap speed to Prayer for Today, and I
liked it at yap speed too. It's I don't know,
it's really beautiful. And I also think I didn't realize

(08:48):
how much mother stuff was in there actually, And now
that's probably why I liked it too, because that is
one of my more favorite topics.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Jamie, how about you.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
I had seen both suspir before, but not for a while,
and I know that when I saw the Luca Guadnino one,
I was like, probably not fully paying attention because it's
streaming on Amazon Prime, which means if a movie's long
and it's streaming, I'm gonna be in and out of
the room. I'm gonna be peeing and not pausing. I'm

(09:20):
gonna be missing some things and not really worrying about it.
So it felt like a fresh look at it. I'd
seen the ar gentle One I don't know when, but
I remember, like, I don't know, like it's not really
doing much in the way of like subverting slasher tropes
as as much, but it's beautiful and the score rips,

(09:40):
and I just remember liking, like, even though it wasn't,
like whatever, doing much in the way of subverting any
sort of witchy tropes or whatever, because we've been talking
about so many witch movies recently that I feel like
on Witch Patrol, where I'm like, nothing really new there,
but it just like the way it's stylized is pretty

(10:02):
incredible and really memorable, and so I liked it. I
rewatched it before watching the New Suspiria just to get
a full idea of like how complicated the new narrative
is in comparison, and I don't know, I feel like
I'm I I was not expecting to be like mech

(10:22):
on this new one, and I am open to being swayed.
I didn't really like it very much. I thought it
was like doing it's so weird because it's like art
whatever this show was airing when this movie came out.
It's only five years old, but it already feels like
kind of funky to me, of like a male o
tour trying to craft a reaction to the me Too movement.

(10:47):
I think if I watched it in twenty eighteen, I
would have liked it more than I liked it now.
But now it just felt like, oh yeah, that was
like the series, like the you know, stretch of a
couple of years where all of our male o tours
were like, don't worry you, guys, I get it and
like it. I don't know, like parts of this movie
were from certain angles. I really liked this movie. I

(11:08):
liked what it tried to add with like historical context
and like giving you more than just sort of your
standard slasher characters. But then there were other parts that
I was like, what is he on about? What? What's
all this?

Speaker 5 (11:22):
Then?

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like not loving this movie
the way I was expecting to. Anyways, Caitlin, what's your
history with Suspirias.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
I saw the first Suspiria in the early two thousands,
and I've seen it a few times since, and I
generally like it, although I find the story just sort
of like what is this about?

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Again? But which is there?

Speaker 5 (11:47):
Mean?

Speaker 2 (11:48):
And they need new ones right right?

Speaker 3 (11:52):
It's a tone poem, I would say, between like the
color scheme, the lighting, the score. You know, it's like
it's just sort of something you put on and kind
of like vibe to in a horror way, you know.
And I appreciate that. The new one I find more

(12:12):
narratively compelling, because I feel like it tries to have
more of a plot. But I have similar gripes as you, Jamie,
as far as I mean, we'll get into it. But
I did see it in theaters. I was one of, like,
I don't know eleven people who saw it because this
movie tanks.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah. I also saw the theater the same show.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
It was just us.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah. I think I would have liked it better if
I had seen it in the theater the first time, too,
because it's like, it seems like it's the sort of
movie where it's like, if you're like in it, it
probably hits harder.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
That dancing too is really cool.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, I mean I don't know the dancing.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
And again, as much as I dislike horror, I also
dislike dancing, and so it like sort of doublely seemed
problematic for me. But no, I maybe like they cancel
each other out. But I liked all the dancing on
the big screen because the sound is really cool too
that you probably don't hear if you're like wandering around

(13:11):
your apartment watch it. The sound is pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, there's cool stuff. I mean, there's there's things to like, certainly, and.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
The dancing's amazing. The costumes are incredible. It made me
realize that there's apparently a whole like subgenre of horror
that's like ballet or dance horror. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
Center parts, a lot of center parts.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yes, middle parts. Yeah. So I'm excited to get into it.
I feel even though I watched the movie twice and
did a bunch of reading, I still feel underprepared because
there's just there's so much. There's a lot of lore
that was established by Dario Argento and Daria Nickelode who

(13:59):
coote the first Suspiria movie.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yes, So there's all this lore and then this Suspiria
movie from twenty eighteen, being set in Cold War mostly
West Berlin, and a bunch of stuff that I still
don't understand. Every time I try to learn about the
Cold War, I read so much and I still do

(14:25):
not really quite understand it.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Let me paint the picture for you. I'm just kidding you.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
That's fortunately the three of us are Cold War. Said,
I know, it's like we mutually figured. I don't know
as because I was texting you while I was watching
the movie as well. I'm like, I just it's just
not coming in. It's not coming in.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
I mean, I actually can paint the picture a tiny
bit of the Berlin part, if this is If this
helps at all, I've been to Berlin a lot of
times and I had friends there, so I think why
it's set there and why it was interesting to me,
and the whole bider monhaff stuff. It's like, you know,
the seventies in Germany, they're like the people who were

(15:09):
born after the war are like confronting. They're disgusting parents
who were Nazis, right, so they're all like coming of
age and realizing they have to confront this. Like not
in some theoretical construct but with their actual families and
so that it's like there it's like a whole seventies

(15:30):
like apocalyptic you know, political thing or everything's like busting apart,
and there's like actual terrorists that are you know, creating havoc.
And then the whole East and West is this like
crazy schism, right you guys know, like you couldn't go
from one to the other. It's like families are divided again. Yeah,

(15:52):
and then the whole the whole East part, like when
he goes there. The other thing I thought was kind
of cool is because it's famous for like the Stazi,
which was like Google before Google, like irl Google, where
there's like people keeping track of every single thing you're doing,
what you're saying, You're being recorded all the time, but
there's like actual humans writing this down, where did she go,

(16:12):
who she's meeting with, and everyone's telling on each other.
So it's like this absolute state of paranoia, which I
think is what the therapist thing is about, but it's real.
It's like how this is real. There really are riches,
and there really is this entire state of paranoia that
they're all living in. But that's you know, that was

(16:33):
why I thought it was set in the Germany this time.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, No, that's that's super and I think that like
it it. I thought it was a cool concept for
them to set the twenty eighteen movie in Germany at
the time that the original came out, with like the
benefit of knowing what happens and like how to Yeah,
Like there's so much talk about generational trauma through like

(17:01):
World War two specifically, and also just how generational trauma
exists between mothers and daughters, and I like all of that.
But why don't I like this movie?

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Let's explore I wouldn't even convince you that you should.
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I don't know, but I doesn't like And maybe it
was just too long, but I don't It's very long.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
And not very quickly paced.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
There was a post credit sequence, yeah, which I don't understand.
It's doctor strange ass approach.

Speaker 5 (17:32):
To the message.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Well, let's take a quick break and then come back
for the recap. Here is the story, which is set
in mostly West Berlin in nineteen seventy seven, and we

(17:54):
meet a young woman named Patricia played by Chloe Grace Moretz,
who pays a visit to her psychologist doctor Klemper, who
is an old man, although it's Tilda Swinton in makeup,
one of the many characters the Six Flags guy, some
would say, one of the many characters that Tillda Swinton

(18:17):
plays in the movie. And Patricia tells him their witches,
although we don't know who or what she's referring to yet.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
We also hear Chloe Grace Moretz say the iconic line,
They're going to eat my cont on.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
A plate, my hollowed out kunt on a plate.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yes, it's a fun crossed it, you know, as like
that's the fun that maybe is the first time that
sentence was written down, and I like that.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
I'm like, I'm in it. Now.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Did you get points for that?

Speaker 5 (18:52):
Right? I will. I'll be as a defense attorney, right, Like,
I mean, come on, like, how many points for that?

Speaker 4 (18:58):
Right?

Speaker 1 (18:58):
I mean?

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Even if it's even if it's do anything else?

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, on a plate?

Speaker 4 (19:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
The steaks are high.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Okay. So then we cut to a Mennonite family in
rural Ohio. We meet a young woman named Susie Banyon
played by Dakota Johnson as she sits by the bedside
of her very ill mother. Then we cut to Susie
in Berlin. She arrives at the Marcos Dance Company for

(19:31):
an audition, and even though she has no formal dance training,
she gives an audition that impresses the people in charge,
one of them being Madame Blanc also Tilda Swinton, and
Susie is accepted into the company in a building where
like the dancers also live, so like the performances are there,

(19:52):
the dormitories where the dancers stay are there. It seems
like all of the matrons who are like faculty and
staff of this place, everyone lives there.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Right, and there's when she gets in, there's sort of
this like definitely does not appear in the Argenta version,
but it's like taken. They take a moment to emphasize
that all of your needs are taken care of, and
that a woman's financial independence is not lost on them
and is very important to them, and that is originally
what makes I mean Susie almost bursts into tears upon

(20:25):
hearing that, because it seems like she grew up with
not very much. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Then Susie meets a few of the staff. There are instructors, administrators,
a house mother. Again, the matrons not to be confused
with the matrons of our Matreon.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yes, Patreon has a patriarchal plan that we don't like. Yeah,
I would say that about maybe one third of the
women who run this school are till the Swinton, yes.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
But well and the rest the rest are more conventional hacks,
which is again I'm pretty into that. I'm really into hagc.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Or in general.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
It's a wonderful and diverse body type of hack.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
I do like, yeah, like all of the like older
women in this I mean I it reaches a point
sometimes where it's like, I don't know, but as far
as the administration goes, I'm like, oh, yeah, women that
are like look their own age and are not constantly
bilittled for it.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Yeah, yeeha. Imagine all are welcome at the dance company.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
You assume they're all ex dancers. So they seem they
seem pretty lithe is that the right word. They're pretty
they seem like they can move pretty good. It's been
kind of jealous of that.

Speaker 5 (21:46):
But anyway, there's the witchcraft too that probably.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
That's probably helping that keeps you limber.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, if I could, I would cast spells on myself
so as to not wake up in pain every morning. Anyway,
So Susie meets the Matrons. She also meets another dancer
named Sarah played by Mia Goth, and they become friendly.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I like Mia Goths so much. I forgot she was
in this movie.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
She's great.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, she's an incredible like horror actor, specifically, like, I'm
excitedly like.

Speaker 5 (22:21):
One of the best.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, I just saw Infinity Pool.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
Oh, she's a standout, beyond beyond standout.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
And I know that people really like ex and Pearl,
neither of which I've seen yet.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
But afraid to afraid, I really liked of the two.
I loved Pearl. I thought Pearl was awesome. We should
cover Pearl at some point. And she was great in Emma. Anyways,
I hope she's well.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
I hope she's well.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
She's well, I hope she's well.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Also worth noting that everyone at the dance company, the dancers,
the matrons, et cetera. Everyone is a almost as if
it's a.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Coven, of which is yeah, there wouldn't. Surely there wouldn't
just be a group of women.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Never a group of women equals a coven.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Not in the seventies. Something's afoot.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Okay. Then there's a scene where the matrons are casting
votes for either Marcos or Blanc, and it's voted that
Mother Marcos will remain in charge. Then there's a conversation
about how they have to choose the right girl to
perform some ritual because Patricia aka Chloe Grace Moretz didn't

(23:38):
work out and now Patricia seems to be missing. The
other dancers, particularly Sarah, is worried about her and they
don't know where.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
She is, which is interesting because in the in the
original version, that is Susie. I mean, there's like Susie's
whole narrative in this movie is unique to this movie.
But originally it's like the American girl shows up and
finds out something's afoot and immediately starts investigating it and doesn't.
I don't know, it's just like the character is totally different.

(24:08):
But that's more Mia goths vibe in this movie.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, and they're wondering if Mia Goth's character Sarah might
be the right choice for this ritual that they will
be performing. Sarah then helps Susie get settled into her dormitory,
and then the dancers start rehearsing for an upcoming performance
of a dance called Vulk, which and they're doing like

(24:33):
contemporary dance slash German expression. There's some modern dance. I
don't know exactly what genre this is, but it's not
ballet like it is in the first Suspiria movie.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, they're pulling from like this specific German choreographer named
Mary Wigman, and I guess that that is like who
Dakota Johnson studied. She's a modern dancer during the time.
But the reason she is not explicitly credited or referenced
within the movie is because I think a lot of

(25:08):
what you were like referring to of like the kind
of one of the narrative complications of this movie Alison,
where she was likely connected to Nazism in some way.
So she had a lot of influence in German dance
but is not really discussed today, although I think it's
her work that's being pulled from for this choreography.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Interesting. So they're doing they're prepping for this performance for
this dance called Volk. The one dancer, Olga, is upset
that Patricia is gone and she calls Madame Blanc a
liar and a witch, and she runs out intending to
quit the company, so now they don't have a protagonist

(25:51):
because Olga was supposed to dance that part, but Susie volunteers,
even though she's brand new and people are skeptical of
her skill level. He's like, I can do it, and
she starts dancing.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
She's so Christine die in Phantom of the Opera, where
she's like me, I guess I could, and then she
fucking kills it.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, she's dancing, and as she's dancing, we see Olga
trying to leave, but she gets trapped in a room
and it's as if Susie's dance movements are puppeting Olga's
body and so it's contorting her in this really gruesome,
violent way. It's breaking her bones and twisting her all around.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
I know this movie came out afterwards, but it reminded
me very much of a similar dance scene in US.
Oh yeah, that's right, that came out the year after this,
So I think it's a coincidence, but wild that this
setup was on people's minds. Right.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
We are also occasionally following doctor Klemper around he visits
I think it's his old house in East Berlin where
he used to live.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
With his wife.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Who went missing many years ago. We also see him
looking through Patricia's journal and he sees some peculiar stuff
about this dance company and he calls the police and
reports Patricia missing. Now back at the company, some of
the matrons find Olga's grotesquely contorted body. They barely react.

(27:28):
They stick some large hooks in her and drag her away.
So it seems like this is just par for the
course at the old Marcos Dance Company.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
A lot of hook imagery in this.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Movie, yeah, truly. Then we hear a conversation, which so
some of the conversations in this movie seem to be
happening telepathically, where the matron slash witches are communicating with
their minds.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
You didn't like that part, Jamie, Oh no, I did
like that part.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
That was a good part. I thought that was really good,
Like when they're just dinner but then they're so fang
is happening. I kind of love that.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I thought that was great. Yeah, No, that like there,
I didn't hate this movie, let me be, I just
feel like, I don't know, I'm excited to talk about
it later in the episode where I felt like there
were so many elements of this movie that I liked
and I didn't really I don't know, like I just
where it landed. I found confused. I was like not
happy with the way that it.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Ended, I guess anyway, So we hear this conversation where
they are rethinking their choice of Sarah and instead maybe
they should try the new girl, Susie for the ritual
they're planning.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Then two cops show up to the dance company trying
to find Patricia, but some of the matrons seemingly put
them in a hypnotic trance. They're taunting them, they're taking
their pants off and like touching.

Speaker 4 (28:58):
That was my other favorite part.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, they're and they're touching them with the hooks like
they're like kind of prodding the one guy's penis with
one of the hooks, and it's release something. The dancers
continue to rehearse with Madame Blanc instructing them. She's working
closely with Susie, training her up. She's like jump higher.

(29:22):
Then we see this hand, this like close up on
a hand with these like long growth fingernails, and apparently
it's mother Marcos from like the depths of this building
wanting to feel Susie's energy. Then doctor Klemper approaches Sarah

(29:43):
about Patricia and her belief that a coven of witches
is running this dance company, and he's like, Sarah, maybe
you should check this out, and she's like, I don't
know what you're talking about. I see no evidence of this.
Leave me alone. But Sarah starts to get little suspicious,
and she does start investigating the building and finds a

(30:04):
room with some weird stuff, including those large hooks, and
she also hears some screaming coming from another room. And
that screaming, I think is that other Tilda Swinton character
with the big plastic framed Six Flags guy glasses who

(30:24):
we had seen picking up a knife and stabbing herself
in the neck for reasons Yes that we definitely understands.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
And yeah, I think that she and the psychiatry should
have hung out because they had a similar till this
wint and six Flags guy aesthetic, Like they would have
made sense together as friends, even you know exactly.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Okay, So Sarah is, you know, hearing and seeing this
freaky stuff. So she runs out and she goes to
see doctor Clemper again, who tells Sarah about what Patricia
had written in her diary about the three mothers, and
I'm going to try to pronounce their names. It's mother Tennenbroum,

(31:15):
the Royal tenen Broughms. It's mothers.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Like being at a party and trying to remember the
name of a movie.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, mother, Oh god, I don't let letch not lockreamham Marum,
I don't know. And then mother suspiriorum or something. I
don't know if I said that one right. Anyway, Mother
Marco's claims to be one of the three, but there
is descent among the group of matrons, hence that vote
we saw earlier as to who should be in charge,

(31:46):
and it seems like modern Blanc is also insisting that
she's one of the mothers.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
This is kind of the bitchiest part of the Movie's
kind of like in cat fighting between them. Which old
witch in charge?

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Which witch yep. Then Sarah confronts Susie, accusing her of
making some kind of deal with the witches, and Susie's like, no,
nothing is wrong, everything is normal te he and we're like, wow,
gaslighting much. Then it's the night of the show that

(32:23):
the company is putting on, and as the dancers are
getting ready, Sarah snoops around the building again, and she
finds Patricia and some of the other dancers. I think
Olga maybe the one who had been like badly contorted.
They are alive, but their bodies are badly injured and

(32:45):
they're like decaying. They're kind of being kept in storage.
It looks like, yeah, they're like being held against their will.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Kind of catacombs underneath.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
The dance school.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, it's really scary. And Sarah is freaked out and
she's trying to escape, but she falls and breaks her
leg because like the witches are preventing her from escaping,
and then some of the matrons find her and put
her into a trance and heal her leg. Meanwhile, the
performance is going on upstairs with Susie dancing the lead

(33:18):
and Sarah, in her trance joins in, but she falls
and cries out in pain, and doctor Klemper, who is
there to watch, is like, Wow, something weird is definitely
going on. I was right.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
They changed eye color too, Yeah, girl, yes, which is
very weird. You don't realize what is happening, and then yeah,
you sort of realize it.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah right, I know, Like toward the end of the movie,
I was like wait, was Dakota Fanning's eyes were they
always brown?

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Dakota? Who?

Speaker 3 (33:52):
What did I say, Dakota? Did I say, Dakota Fanning?
I knew I was going to do.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
That, Dakota straight.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Oh my god, I'm so sorry, buddy.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Back inside of everyone, there are two Dakota's.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
North inside or east and west like the Berlin anyway. Okay,
So then there's another day of rehearsals, and Madame Blanc
is like, okay, it has to happen tonight, this ritual
with Susie, where Susie will be some sort of vessel
for Mother Marcos, and Susie seems to be in on it.

(34:28):
She is a willing and knowing participant. Meanwhile, doctor Klemperer's
his wife, who again went missing decades earlier, suddenly reappears
and she's played by Jessica Harper, who played Susie Banyon
in the original Suspiria from nineteen seventy seven.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Who has been on this chef friend of the cast.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
On the Rosemary's Baby episode. Ye anyway, so uh, doctor
Klemperer and his wife Anka have a tearful reunion and
they're walking through this city at night, and then She
brings him to the dance company and then immediately disappears
because it was a trick. The witches tricked him into

(35:09):
going there because they're going to use him as the
witness for the ritual. The ritual starts. We're in this
big underground room. The dancers are naked. They're dancing and
writhing around. Sarah is getting disemboweled. Mother Marcos is there.
We finally see her in the flesh. She is also

(35:32):
played by Tilda Swinton, and she is a sight to see,
a vision of a vision, a legend. You know, we'll
talk about that character more, but basically she's made to
look very.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Many times we talk about that happening. Yeah, seriously reminds
me of I feel like that goes back to not
like cinematically, just like times we've talked about it. I
feel like the shining maybe.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Shining, we talked about it and the Vivich We've got
countless times. This conversation is always coming up midsommar. Yeah. Oh,
and then Susie is like I'm ready, and we think
she's going to be sacrificed, and then Madame Blanc is like,
something doesn't feel right. We have to stop this, but
before she can, Mother Marcos kind of like half decapitates

(36:22):
Madame Blanc and then Marcos is like, okay, Susie, let's
keep going. And by the way, you have to kill
your mother back in Ohio because I'm the only mother
you need. But then another super witch I don't really
know who this is supposed to be, but a very

(36:43):
scary being shows up, and Susie's like, hey, Mother Marcos,
for which mother were you anointed again? And she's like
Mother's Suspiriorum and Susie's like, well, that's interesting because I
am Mother's Suspiriorum. And then the super witch kills Mother
Marcos and anyone who had voted for Marcos by exploding

(37:09):
their heads into a burst of blood. Then Susie goes
to Patricia, Olga and Sarah and they all ask to die.
They're you know, in pain and they've been you know,
brutally tortured and stuff. So Susie slash the new Mother

(37:30):
Suspiriorum releases them from their mortal coils, and the other
dancers are still dancing, and Susie's like, yes, keep dancing.
She also rips open her own chest at some point
for reasons.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's because she's got like a heart of darkness. Yes,
mother suspiriorum vibes truly.

Speaker 4 (37:55):
I think she's like, she's not a person, So you're
just like, it's whatever, where this is?

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, the spirit, this magic, it does sort of look
like a hollowed out kunt hit in her chest. Sorry,
I'm just quoting the movie anyway.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
Oh I'm open to it.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah, thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Then we see the aftermath of all of this, where
one of the matrons escorts doctor Klemper out of the building.
We see the remaining matrons whose heads didn't get exploded.
They're cleaning up the bloody mess from the night before.
Madame Blanc is still sort of alive, but who knows.

(38:41):
Then Susie pays a visit to doctor Klemper at home,
and she's like, you deserve to know the truth about
what happened with your wife, and she tells him that
she was killed in a Nazi death camp in nineteen
forty three and that she was thinking of him when
she died. And then Susie erases his memory of his wife, Anka,

(39:06):
of Patricia and Sarah, and Susie herself basically all of
the women that were his undoing. And then the movie
ends with an image of the house he lived in
with Anka, and this like engraved like their initials engraved
with like a heart drawn around it, which he will
never remember because the witches don't want him to remember.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
The end.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and
we'll come back to discuss, and we are back, all right,
Where should we start?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Where did we start with this movie? I mean, I
guess just to for people listening who have not seen
either movie or have a only seen the twenty eighteen movie,
the differences between the two suspirias are pretty significant. I
would say that there's obviously a lot of love and
care put into the twenty eighteen version to pay homage

(40:15):
to the original. The protagonist's name is the same. Susie
comes from America to a dancing organization in Berlin in
both times. The dance company is full of witches both times,
but the Argenta version is plot wise pretty cut and
dry as far as which stories go. I think that

(40:37):
what makes it different is, you know, unlike most slasher
films of this era and still to some extent now,
depending on what you're watching, it's not men butchering women,
it's women butchering women. Although it's shot very similarly and

(40:58):
it's sort of a straightforward an innocent young woman comes
to Berlin and finds witches and she survives till the
end and is sort of this pure figure throughout. This
one is obviously very different, but for those who haven't

(41:18):
seen the Argento that's basically what it is, and it
has all these separate issues that the twenty eighteen movie
does not share with it, So we'll save that for
another episode.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, I also want to share some of the lore
of the Three Mothers, which I didn't realize until I
started researching for this episode, but it's I wasn't sure
if like the Three Mothers were based in some sort
of myth thought like existing mythology, and it was inspired
by existing mythology. But basically Dario Argento conceived of this

(41:53):
trio of mothers and made a trilogy about the Three mothers.
So Suspiria from seventy seven is one of the movies
of this trilogy that focuses on, you know, mother Suspiriorum.
He also made a movie called Inferno and another movie
called Mother of Tears, which each of those movies focuses

(42:18):
on the other two of the three mothers, and throughout
the course of this trilogy you learn that it's these like,
you know, ancient witches who I think invented It was
like three sisters who invented witchcraft and then started just
like going around Europe amassing wealth throughout the centuries, amassing power,

(42:41):
leaving death in their wake wherever they went. They were
able to manipulate world events on like a global scale,
you know, killing anyone who got in their way or
discovered who they actually were, and they were determined to
rule the world. Now the witch is wanting more world

(43:03):
domination doesn't come across super clearly in this movie, which
is actually one of my criticisms about it because I
kept being like, oh, okay, what is their motivation? Like
why are they doing what they're doing? I wish there
was I don't know, I guess, and we'll talk about
this the way, like these witches are feminists, which obviously

(43:25):
I mean further discussion, but like I was like, are
these witches like trying to smash the patriarchy quote unquote
or like what are they doing exactly?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
It's it.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
It never becomes quite clear, and so I was left wanting,
I guess, more of a reason or an explanation of
like why they're doing what they're doing. But we can
get further into that.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Sure, Yeah, does anyone have like I mean, I sat like,
I think the way that I think about this movie
changes depending on like which perspective I'm looking at it
from where.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
Which perspective.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Witch, But there's I think that there's a lot of
like generational stuff going on in this movie, and that
it see or I sort of took away that like
this coven was just trying to sustain by any means necessary,
which you could say of like basically any societal setup,

(44:24):
but this one is hyper feminine and also supernatural. But
it just seemed like for me, like I don't know,
I was not I'm surprised I did not know that
about the Argento expanded like lore because it Yeah, I
think I just read especially because of like the historical
context that they were However, like however they had to

(44:48):
survive as even like an idea or a structure that
they were not above brutalizing or getting rid of anyone
who didn't sort of fall into line with what they needed,
which is like, you know, a patriarchal structure, even though
this one is dominated by women. But anyone who falls

(45:11):
out of line in this world, and I think this
is true of the Argenta movie too, but like anyone
who falls out of line with the big leaders is
not just eliminated, but like tortured and humiliated and then
eliminated and like discredited. And that felt clear to me.
I just like I don't know, I guess I'm less

(45:34):
sure of like what the goal was of showing this
happening in a strictly like matriarchal world.

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Well, I mean, to me, what I thought it was
a back which was very interesting to me was like
female creativity because to me, like it really they were
a dance studio. They weren't just like a schoolhouse or something.
And I think that's their thing. They're fucking amazing at dancing.
And that's a super interesting tension of like their creativity

(46:07):
and the woman who's kind of in charge is the
kind of creative, the most creative one, but they're all
kind of buying for like who's you know, can kind
of get into it the best or the best dancer.
And I thought like that was their point, but maybe
that's just you know, what interests me is female creativity,
and there's very few movies about female creativity, and so
I like that a lot. And then again, so I

(46:29):
have teenage daughters and I'm an elder hag, and so
the tension between the hags and the young women is real.
I just a personal story. I had just spent two
days at my fourteen year old daughter's overnight camp where
all the mothers come. It's called Mother's Weekend, and it

(46:51):
was mothers with their daughters for two nights at an
overnight camp. And you see these like daughters and then
you see them walking with the mothers and they kind
of look alike, but there's kind of some I don't know,
like they're all like the mothers are kind of like
swollen and sweaty and like you know, wearing shorts that

(47:13):
don't fit them, and the daughters are all just sort
of like these like glorious like young, full of life,
you know things, And it's like real to me. When
I just watched it again, it was super like that
tension of like older women younger women. The kind of
physicality of it, I don't know, I mean, does it

(47:35):
all like is there like a straight line that you
can call, you know. But it made me think about
all that stuff and that's all interesting to me.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah, well that's like one of the things. So like
Mother Marcos and when we finally get her reveal on screen,
and there's been kind of there's been hints about like
what this ritual is gonna be fool or like why
it's happening, and you eventually realize that she's basically looking

(48:05):
for a new body to inhabit because the body that
she currently has is and this is what we were
alluding to as far as like the discussions we've had
about this trope. But it's like a woman who is
not young or thin is therefore disgusting. And the way
that like this character is designed where she's got like

(48:28):
extra appendages growing out of her it seems like there's
like a baby head like kind of drooping from her belly.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Oh, I was thinking about the baby hand on her arms. Oh,
there's a lot of extraneous Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, so there's like it's it almost seems like she's
like externally pregnant is the best way I could describe it.
Either way, Like she's she's just characterized as being this
grotesque hag and her goal here the reason this ritual
is happening, I don't know, Like it's so that she

(49:01):
can inhabit this new, thin, young body. Is it for
vanity reasons? Is it for just that she needs a
body that will like last longer so that she can
keep ruling as like mother suspiriorum.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
That's sort of what I interpreted that as was like
that she is trying I guess that that was going
with like how I was viewing the movie by like
how do I sustain We're weirdly we were talking abou.
I don't know why we were talking about the Star
Wars rebooths, but it's on like a similar thing with
like Emperor Palpatine is like you need to go on

(49:38):
and like you know, he's kind of similarly characterizes very
very grotesque, although not in the same way he's wearing
a robe, but like is trying to maintain this immense
power that he has that not most people see or
recognize by enlisting younger bodies. But then there's like I

(50:02):
think that, yeah, like the fact that this older body
is a woman's body that complicates things because there's like
the way that like any older woman's body has been
shown specifically, and horror tends to be really pointed, and like,
aren't older women's bodies horrific and therefore evil? Which is

(50:22):
like what we talked about in you know, when Jack
Nicholson sees an old lady's but in the Shining he
can't handle it. It's it's too evil stuff like that.
I don't know, like it's tricky, I I And then
with like younger women's bodies, I mean, I think that
the younger women in this movie don't have a lot

(50:43):
of power and like they h and it feels like this,
I don't know how like effectively it's done, But I
guess I don't know, like how the older women in
charge have the actual power, but they need to execute
it through the bodies of these younger women, which theoretically,
on a long enough timeline, these younger women will do

(51:06):
two other younger women and it's like this, you know,
whole churning cycle of power and manipulation. Yeah, so that
or maybe that's mommy, I don't know, I'm not bad.

Speaker 4 (51:20):
Well, there's mothers. There has to be daughters, I guess, right.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Or children?

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah, well, yeah, of any gender but yeah, in this
case of this movie, it's like, yeah, the mother quote
unquote the mother generation and then like the daughter generation
and like the tension they'rein, which I do want to
talk about further. But so the thing with me for
this movie is that throughout the story there's this idea

(51:48):
of this dance company is a matriarchy. It's women looking
out for each other. It's like, you know, the mother
is nurturing this younger generation, and these witch are feminist
icons where you get like lines of like when one
of the matrons is explaining to Susie that you know,
like you mentioned this already, Jamie, like at this company,

(52:10):
we understand the importance of a woman's financial autonomy. There's
a scene where Susie and Sarah are talking about Madame
Blanc and how she's awesome, and Sarah says, like, when
the Third Reich wanted to shut off women's minds and
keep their uteruses open, Madame Blanc was there to like

(52:32):
provide a safe space for women to have like freedom
and bodily on autonomy. The matrons b rate doctor Klamperer,
saying like you had years to get your wife out
of Berlin before she disappeared, like it's your fault that
your wife is dead. And then they also b rate
him for not believing women when they come to him

(52:55):
about like their concerns, and he instead, you know, says
they are delusional. So it sort of presents this idea
of like, wow, look at this matriarchy who's all about
women's autonomy and you know, believing women and women looking
out for each other. But then like any woman who

(53:17):
doesn't want to be a part of the witch stuff
is imprisoned and tortured, and there's like this one true
leader and if you don't pledge your undying loyalty to her,
she'll explode your head off. So there's like this power structure.
To me, it's like like even that scene where they're

(53:37):
hypnotizing and taunting the cops, who are the only other
two male characters besides doctor Klemper who have any kind
of like narrative significance, And it seems like on the
surface that could be some kind of like feminist win,
but I don't know, Like me, they're.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
Just having fun, Like I really good and it's kind
of nice to see what take some laugh. That was
like they had like the best time ever but I
don't know if it was that.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
But yeah, I don't know, Like women abusing men the
way that men have abused women is not feminism, as
much as I like to goof around and joke that
it is. It's not. Like matriarchy is not just gender
swapped patriarchy. Like smashing the patriarchy doesn't mean we're going
to like replace it with an equally toxic and violent

(54:31):
power structure, and like a power structure where some women
have way more power than other women that they violently
wield over the women who have less power. Like, that's
not feminism, that's not matriarchy. So I don't know exactly
what the movie's trying to say. And I feel like
the director thought he was making a feminist movie, but

(54:54):
I just I feel like the takeaway from this movie
is everything you've heard about a group of women and
actually being a coven of witches, well that's true. And
a group of women, especially one who is like not
dependent on men in any way, that's something to be
feared because those women are evil and their power hungry.

(55:15):
They want power over the world, over men, and over
each other because women be petty, And that is my takeaway.
I am willing to entertain other reads of this movie,
because I do think you could look at this movie
and read it as a feminist text. But to me,
it's just like there are too many tropes of women

(55:35):
as evil witches present that I don't know what the
movie is doing to exactly challenge that that I come
down on the side of, Like, so, what's the point, Like,
what's the takeaway again?

Speaker 4 (55:50):
I mean maybe I'm just I don't think it is
a feminist movie.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
I wouldn't really bad. Yeah they're bad women and it's
a bad matriarchy. Yeah they're.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
Yeah, it's not a feminist movie. I just still it
tracks for me all like a million levels, like actually
because my dearest.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
Level, you know, And that's like kind of what I
see this movie, you know, like in a lot of ways,
you know, don't know.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
I was just saying. When I came up, I was
a visual artist, and I was in New York and
worked for a lot of really amazing middle aged female
artists who were hella me. I mean, the meanness I
could ever be would like be like one tenth of
how mean they were, but they what they had to
get through to be even in the position they were

(56:43):
I was just like in awe of them and like
whatever they you know, I really could identify with the
young dancer to the old woman thing. And you know,
I don't think the movie's feminist, but it's a it's
a it's an it's an experience. But like, I don't
think it has a point like you're saying, I don't
think we should be like, oh, this is really insightful

(57:05):
about some you know, changing the face of feminist thought.
But it does sort of track with the timeframe of
what it's about women creativity, women artists that is potentially,
you know, at least I feel like it wasn't like
science fiction, so no, I mean.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
Familiar. I guess I'm just like annoyed. This movie that
was written by a man and directed by a different
man has women valuing things like women's financial unbodily autonomy,
or at least saying that they value that on the surface,
and then like saying that people should believe women, and

(57:48):
then they turn around and they're like just kidding, which
also does happen where like people have a very like
public facing feminist persona, but then they turn around and
are like evil sexist capitalists and stuff. Like that, So
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Maybe I'm just like, yeah, I guess I'm sort of
coming down somewhere in the middle here because I also
think that this, Yeah, I agree with you, Caitlin that
like the most evil characters in the movie saying the
most progressive things definitely does not bode well. I don't think,

(58:26):
and I would have I think appreciated. I think it
would have maybe made I don't know. First of all,
I cannot really tell what the intended effect was for
the writer and the director. I truly could not figure
out what they wanted me to take away from it,
which is fine, but I just couldn't tell. But yeah,
some of the most technically progressive statements in this movie

(58:49):
are made by who end up being the most evil characters,
and that is I guess it would have been. I
don't know, like I would have appreciated more of some
sort of diversity of opinion among the older women and
if there was someone who had sort of like dissented
to the general like, because I think that existed in
a younger cast, where the younger women tend to feel

(59:11):
a variety of ways about a thing, the older woman
tend to sort of fall in line with the same thing,
and that sort of muddled the takeaway for me. The
thing that like really genuinely bothered me about the way
this movie ends. And maybe and I think that there
is some like worldly truth to this, but because the
end of the movie was so jumbled for me, I

(59:32):
just didn't like it was that, you know, at the end,
in a way that is like knowingly self serving, Susie
goes to the six Flags guy and presents him absolution
and men in Black Memories apps him from the horrific
things that he has seen, and he, you know, receives

(59:53):
this sort of full arc of he learns this horrible
thing that has happened to his wife that he he's
clearly carrying a lot of guilt about. That seems to
be implied why he is attempting to help women, even
though he is applying rationality to an irrational world. All
this shit, right, But the fact that, yeah, that he's
the only character in the movie that gets that grace

(01:00:17):
and that absolution just in general bugged me. Maybe that
was the point though, maybe that's like, you know, men
are extended a level of grace and absolution that women
are not. I don't know, really and maybe Susie was
just acting, you know, in the best interests to sustain
the coven and for someone on the outside to know

(01:00:41):
anything about the inside is bad for business, and so
we're not going to do it. But that was the
thing that like, I don't know, going out, especially because
there's so many like characters inside of the dance studio
that I feel like did not get a satisfactory arc
to like go out of the way to give that
to the literally the one male character in the movie

(01:01:03):
and give him kind of like a happy Smiley ending.
I just like that. That was the thing that really
bugged me about the ending, Like do you.

Speaker 5 (01:01:12):
Think it's happy Smiley though if like he has no
memory now of like his wife and like the love
they shared, that's true, you know, I mean I don't know,
Like to me, it's like the ending is prioritizing like
the history you know, in the atmosphere, over the dance,
you know, like over the witches, you know, like even

(01:01:32):
essentially right, it's like reaching out like just you know,
to me and my interpretation to like this like larger
metaphorical you know space that sort of like engages like
the you know, the whole like context and setting and
the Holocaust and you know, all of it, you know,
and so I mean, yeah, I think like that's kind

(01:01:54):
of and and like I mean this in a caring way,
because I appreciate, you know, sort of all of the
larger historical contexts that come into the film, but I
think that there is like this like essential like both
wayseness that it's trying to have, you know, like like
being sort of you know, like taking the story of

(01:02:16):
like this coven and you know, this dance troup and
these women that you know, like ultimately it has to
leave them to serve that you know, kind of like
level I guess of like thematics.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:30):
So so that that was kind of like my yeah,
my thing with the ending, it's like I understand, but
it also did feel like a historically male narrative choice,
you know, to leave the female characters behind, you know,
like in favor of capital h you know, history and

(01:02:50):
you know, yeah, just kind of like saying what we'll
say about war.

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
I don't know. Yeah, I thought it was also maybe
I was reading too much into it, but I thought
it was like some kind of like collective psyche that
that guy like embodied of like being because he doesn't
really feel like a person. No one does in the movie.
But you know, it's not like it's a realistic portrayal.
It's so like stylized and heightened. But he, to me

(01:03:17):
was like you know whatever. And Freud and I talk
about Lacan like they're like deep into like European intellectual
you know, theory within the film and they're letting you
know that. But I think, like that's what I thought.
It was some sort of like she's now maybe the
whatever her reign as you know, if you have to

(01:03:37):
have the witches, she's gonna sort of coming in now
it's her thing. And it's like she seemed more benevolent
because the other woman was clearly batshit, the one that
she got rid of, like she maybe was the one
causing so much chaos and we don't choose a fraud, Yeah, right,
that lady's the fraud. So when Dakota not Fan Johnson

(01:04:00):
like put to you know, and clearly her mother was
so fucking mean, which we didn't talk about at all,
like whatever, that was that to you know for Alyssa,
and I think that lady tracks the most from our world.
The actual mother who's like cursing her one curses her daughter.
It's on her death.

Speaker 5 (01:04:18):
That was a real bummer. That was a real bummer
for me.

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
Yeah, that's a bummer. And so I just felt like, Okay,
this girl is like gonna maybe bring upon this like
more benevolent thing because she gets rid of all the
people who voted the other girl. Oh, keeps her people
on and a bunch of those tags. Yeah, they seem
like maybe the hags that were always kind of like you,

(01:04:42):
they would always cut away to them like, oh no,
what's she doing now? You know, the ones that lived
through to the end, they seemed a little more suspicious
of the original witch hag.

Speaker 5 (01:04:53):
Oh no, definitely, So maybe she's a better Yeah, Oh
I think she is. I mean I do think that
it's like about, you know, a sort of like come
up and right to those in power who abused their power. Right,
But I'm also just kind of wondering like what it
says about, you know, like like secrecy is such a

(01:05:14):
thing you know, sort of like within even like the building,
you know, and like the mirrors and like reflections and
like who people literally are and lineage you know, with
like the mother you know, and just sort of like, yeah,
where we came from being like so hidden, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
That's the whole lacon thing, right, It's like you see
your mother, you see yourself, and as it was saying
on the camp where you see the mothers and daughters together,
and it's this weird funhouse mirror between the two. I mean,
the movie's not a feminist movie, but it's it's like
they went for it in this movie, and I personally
I like people who really go for it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Yeah, it did not hold back.

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
And they they did not take the easy road here, No,
they did not.

Speaker 5 (01:05:58):
They did not.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, I mean it's like, I don't know, it's so
weird because it's like the stance, like he comes in
at an eleven this entire movie. But I'm still that's something.
But there are still whole sequences where I'm like not
sure what he's trying to say. I like that, Like
with this psychiatrist, I don't know, Like I liked a
lot of what was going on with him until the

(01:06:20):
very end. The ending I just found frustrating. But towards
the beginning it's clear that he's like trying to like
apply this very like I guess new Ish European psychological
standard to his patients that is not working because Patricia
is telling the truth and he's like, well, you just

(01:06:41):
have issues with your mom, and so like let's work
this out, which I think is like an issue I
have with my therapist as recently as tomorrow. Sometimes I'm like,
I hear you, but it can't just be that, like
we cannot just keep going back to my mind, you know.
I think he's like applying a lot of theory to

(01:07:04):
patients who are kind of just telling him what is
happening to them. And I thought that that worked, and
I like that he's sort of like his come up
and being forced to witness the reality of what Patricia
was telling him in the first scene of the movie
felt appropriate and like, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:07:26):
Almost feels feminist, right Like like at that moment, I'm like, okay,
you know, like I think it does, you know, approach
it in moments I.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Think part of my.

Speaker 5 (01:07:37):
Like I don't want to say, you know, like I
want to appreciate it on its own terms, right, you know,
like not everything is you know, like a vehicle for
feminist theory. But I think what's so frustrating to me
about the movie is like it's so easily could have
been right, Like there are so many you know kind
of like moments and windows and avenues that you know,

(01:08:00):
like do get it right or you know, do point out.
I mean it's also like a really fun takeaway, you
know that like in you know, nineteen seventy seven, like
Berlin like to be as evil as a patriarchy, like
to get enough power where you can like express that
power and be that evil, like you literally have to
be supernatural witches. Like it's the only way you know

(01:08:21):
that like women can like amass that much power, you know,
and that much like independence and you know, financial freedom
and et cetera, et cetera. You know, I think like
there are a lot of like feminist vectors right in
the movie. So I mean I think like maybe like
that was kind of one of my peeves, I guess,
you know, at certain points where I thought it was

(01:08:41):
like gonna you know, like realize this.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
And then it doesn't.

Speaker 5 (01:08:46):
But I do feel like it's also kind of like
saying you know, something interesting about history and atonement, you know,
or even just kind of like validation of kind of
yeah witness and hollowed out counts, you know, like I mean,

(01:09:07):
it's bringing good stuff to the table in other ways.

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
In other ways it felt like, I guess at the end,
I felt like the what this movie seemed like it
was trying to say about history and what this movie
was trying to say at different points about women felt
like it got kind of muddled and jumbled, which I
guess is true of the world. But it is a movie,

(01:09:32):
and so I was just sort of like, it felt like,
you know, there was it was like the culmination of
this psychiatrist's view of his women patients that comes true
when he's forced to witness it, but the way that
his arc resolves is more related to history and less
related to the other stuff. And it just felt like
I just was frustrated by it. But I get that,

(01:09:54):
you know, like everyone will feel yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:57):
Well, I mean the other thing is I mean I
was reading little bit about them. How the second one
came to pass and it took It was in development
for a very long time. First of all, this is
not like a slam dunk movie to make. It was,
you know, and it made no money, so clearly they
were you know, had some problems. But it was originally
David Gordon Green was going to direct this, which is

(01:10:18):
like mind numbingly confusing to me. Even though I really
love David Gordon Green, I just don't. I don't somehow
get it. And that would have been fascinating to see.
But I mean, the people who did make this movie, like,
did choose to make an entirely female cast of this movie.
That's whatever you want to say about the context of
what it is. That's a choice, that's an unusual choice.

(01:10:41):
And then again, I'm going to harken back to the
whole concept of like female creativity. I think, like there's
you know, and my one of my daughters is an athlete.
There's so few movies about female creativity and female athletes.
I'm considering how many movies are about male creativity. It's
like it's mind blowing to me and would have been

(01:11:02):
interesting if a woman made this movie. I'm sure it
would have been. But I think it's still an odd
choice for anyone to want to make a movie about
this much about you know, with this whole women cast.
You know, it is like whether or not it's a
feminist movie. There certainly tried to make something. They tried
to do something. They took some big swings here, and

(01:11:24):
I don't think it was. I think I don't know.
I think that's interesting, like if they had that, these
were the people that got the script, which this guy
like got Argento to give them the rights to the
movie to make it, you know, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, Dario Argento is way problematic. We haven't gotten
into it, but in terms of his own personal behavior,

(01:11:46):
which I is, you know, slightly more upsetting than the film,
I guess, but yeah, anyway, Yeah, well.

Speaker 5 (01:11:52):
I mean another reason I had, you know, like another
soft spot I guess, you know that I have for
the movie. That's you know, kind of like one of
my own like problematic trials.

Speaker 4 (01:12:04):
I guess.

Speaker 5 (01:12:04):
I guess a creative is like how you represent you know,
female like evil and female violence without you know, falling
into like stereotype and trope, you know, and things that
like reinforce messages that are out there you know that
are are already very harmful and you know, have historically
been very harmful.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
You know like that.

Speaker 5 (01:12:25):
Yeah, that that's just something like I'm really interested in
and that I struggle with a lot. So I mean,
I guess like I also appreciate both sides of that struggle.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
M right. It makes me I want to go back
to something I think, Alison, you were talking about it
earlier about sort of the complicated and generally bummer with
you alyssa message around or just around Susie's specifically arc
with mothers and motherhood that goes back to me for

(01:12:59):
another I guess, like chafing, I was having with how
this movie portrays witches because I feel like there's a
few different examples in arcs in this movie where we're
seeing this horrible thing happened between Susie's mother and Susie,

(01:13:19):
where Susie's mother is saying that her youngest daughter is
this agent of Satan, that she is her sin, that
this is the worst thing that's ever happened to her,
which is essentially like it. You're led to believe Susie's
been at least emotionally abused, and it's also implied physically
abused for most of her childhood, which makes total sense.
You want to get the fuck out of the country

(01:13:40):
if that were the case. But then at the end,
Cuzie's mother is kind of like quote unquote proven right,
because actually Susie has been an agent of Satan. This
whole time she is evil and she is horrible, and
so you're like, well, what is that trying to say?
If we're shown this horrific parent child dynamic and then

(01:14:02):
at the end the abusive parent is correct, Like, it's
just bizarre to me. I like couldn't get my head
around it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):
Okay, I thought it. And again I'm just my own
like dark sided soul in my own experience. But I
read it as Susie is an artist, right, Susie's dancer,
Susie's this artist person growing up in like some kind
of I don't know what that was, honest, Menon, menonit right,
mennonit thing. And you know, I had parents who were like,

(01:14:31):
you want to be a what you know, you're going
to be an artist? Like, you know, just this real
like negative super And again I don't know how how
bad she is a bee the you know, we could
agree to disagree on that one. But to me, I
don't know, Maybe you know, they just couldn't handle her
levels of like ambition and creativity back there in Ohio,

(01:14:53):
you know, but maybe I'm just you know, that's just
the way my brain goes on it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
Alternatively, is it the abuse that Susie endured from her
mother that led her to become the witch she now is, Like,
did she start out as like a well, because I
do want to examine Susie and her arc more closely,
because like we meet her, we see her. I don't

(01:15:20):
know if she's like tending to her sick mother, but
she's like sitting by her bedside, and I feel like
the movie maybe I'm just sort of like reading into this,
but I feel like it's implied that the reason her
mother is ill is because Susie has been making her
ill with her like witchcraft this whole time. That's not

(01:15:41):
clearly stated one way or the other. But anyway we
meet Susie, she is set up to be this, you know, innocent.
She's pretty shy, quiet, she's kind of awkward. She comes
from this Mennonite family, the implication being that she has
lived a pretty sheltered and modist life. But then she

(01:16:02):
comes to Berlin. She's like at the dance school for
a day and she's like, hang on a minute, I
can dance the lead in this thing. Because I saw
a documentary about it. I went to the library and
watched it one hundred times.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Was like me when I was starting stand up there,
so be careful.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
I'm not judging her.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
I just think I can do this because I watched
it on TV. I thinks a lot of the I mean,
I think that that is like a lot of young
artists where it's like, especially if you are Susie and
you grow up with very little access to art like souls,
do you learn you want to be an artist other
than watching it and whatever's available?

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Oh yeah, no, I'm not passing anywhere or help you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
Chats to you about it at night.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
Yeah, Alyssa. Alyssa grew up in a very religious household
that as an artist. Yes, so that you know, did
you how did you feel for Susie escaping?

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
You know?

Speaker 5 (01:17:00):
So I think that there can be a Okay, I
don't know that this is like the right opinion to have.

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):
I'm just gonna lay it out there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Let's go on the assumption that it is.

Speaker 4 (01:17:13):
Well, it isn't.

Speaker 5 (01:17:16):
Like there was something kind of refreshing about seeing like
the that you know twist and that reversal leaned into
like in a way that like exists completely outside of
like religious propaganda, you know what I mean, Like just
like to to be like yeah, you know that this
was actually like true, and you know, like maybe all

(01:17:39):
of those assumptions right that we have about you know,
like our like willingness to kind of like see this
you know, young woman as a victim, YadA YadA, you
know how in your face like I know that that's
that's kind of like an overdone and and like dirty trick.

(01:18:01):
But I don't know, I mean there's just something about
like going for it at eleven, like you say that,
I don't know what kind of interested me. And I
liked thinking back then on the movie, you know and
being like okay, well was I seeing you know, like
how was I seeing this? And like how would I
see it if actually like she was a vehicle for

(01:18:22):
seeing this full time, you know, or like actually like
she was tuning into this or you know, like her
mom did see you know this this in her or
this was her life, or you know she wanted to
be here for like all of these different reasons, or
she was lying to her friend when we thought that
she was you know, being like completely honest and vulnerable,

(01:18:42):
like I don't know, you know, it was just kind
of a fun little like rewind and I don't know
that that I don't know that that you know, even
like led to like a good read of the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
I don't know, I mean I do. I mean I
think that like something like a huge difference between The
Argentle One and this one that I liked was that
like in the Argentle One, Susie is like the like
American girl next door character. You you are sort of
like led to believe she's inherently trustworthy because she is

(01:19:16):
like young and pretty and white and from America, and
so you're like, well, yeah, sure, this is a little
sweety pie. I trust her, And I like that the
that the twenty eighteen one is like, yeah, I did
sort of assume that of the Dakota Johnson character when
I was like, oh, she's just a little girl from Ohio,

(01:19:36):
like she's out of her element, and and to like
give her more intention and more power than I had,
like it challenged whatever my assumption of that character. And
that was cool because it's like, you know, not every
and and like this movie, I'm all over the place
about it. But this movie does clearly have an interest

(01:19:58):
in the idea of like what purity is and what
it means, because it's something that comes up over and
over and over. And one of the things that like
was I think like easiest to get rid of from
the seventies one is like there's sort of a vague
implication of like a love interest for Susy from a
male dancer because it's an all genders dance studio in

(01:20:21):
the first one, and they get rid of that really quickly.
But I don't know, just like the idea that like
being involved in this coven in a meaningful way also
has to do with some sort of purity, and that's
kept pretty vague. You don't know like what you need
to be pure of or about. But it felt like

(01:20:42):
the twenty eighteen one had some interest in the idea
of purity. I'm not really sure where it fell, but
I thought it was interesting that it brought that idea up,
because that was something that in the first one I
felt was like assumed and very much like played on
your assumptions about who you're looking at. Where esca Harper
character you're like, oh, yeah, sure, I trust.

Speaker 4 (01:21:03):
Her, And this one too, there was no like exploitation.
I didn't feel of their sexuality at all, like male
gaze women sexuality, like whatever was going on with them
sexually which was something quite vague, was also something very internal,
which I can you know, I'm there for that, you know,
like it had nothing to do with almost other the sexuality,

(01:21:26):
and this film is very self generated and not that much,
which is really rare when that many beautiful women like
naked in a film. I can't really think of another
that didn't even broach that barely. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
I like that a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:21:48):
And whatever. We didn't talk at all about the dreams
that she's having, which I thought were really cool visually,
whatever that is in this light and whatever, the like
indoctrination thing that there's spell they're putting on her. I
don't know. I really enjoyed that. And that again was
whatever this like auto sexuality that's happening. I don't know.

(01:22:09):
I thought that was very unique to this film.

Speaker 3 (01:22:12):
Yeah, because so well, I brought up the like her
she's like I can do it, because I watched a
documentary just to demonstrate that. She's very confident and she's like,
so for her to be like, yeah, I can dance
the lead and it turns out she's right. I mean,
she ends up being the best dancer it's implied at

(01:22:34):
the company, and which just feels, I guess, like kind
of foreshadowing of what's to come. As far as like twist,
I'm mother suspiriorum and I have been all along, but
I just, like you were saying, Jamie, like playing to
people's expectations of like a you know, a soft spoken,

(01:22:54):
quiet woman being trustworthy and just apparently nice and the
person we're going to root for. I feel like was
set up to better serve the twist that she's actually
the meanest witch of them all. But is she the
meanest because she does like show compassion to you know,

(01:23:18):
Sarah and Patricia and Olga who are like begging for
death and she's like, yeah, babe, got you, no problem.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):
May we all have a friend so merciful to provide
the sweet release of death?

Speaker 5 (01:23:34):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
So I don't even know if I have any kind
of like conclusive thoughts on this, as far as like
the way Susie is portrayed and her arc and the
way she's initially characterized versus like her coming into her
own power, and like you were talking about Alison, like
her sexuality in a way that is completely separate from men,

(01:23:59):
and it's just like her kind of having sex with
the ground sometimes like kind of writhing around and just
sort of fucking the ground here and there. And then
there's that scene where I mean we've all done.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
Yeah, I mean if you get too close to a
dryer and it's in heat, a dryer in.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Heat, Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then there's like that scene
that conversation between Madame Blanc and Susie where where Madame
Blanc is like, how did it feel to dance? And
She's like it felt like what I imagine it feels like
to fuck? And she's like, oh, like to fuck a

(01:24:42):
man And Susie's like, no, I was thinking of an animal,
which I don't quite know how to inter.

Speaker 4 (01:24:51):
That's that's my language. I was like in it with that,
like I was way more interested than if it was
about fucking a man, Like.

Speaker 5 (01:25:00):
Thank god, yeah, like that's a redemption.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
Yeah for sure, we.

Speaker 4 (01:25:05):
All know that.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
I feel like, yeah, I don't know, and I mean, like,
let me just say something else awful, Like they're like,
there's so I just as a viewer, you know, now,
it's like I see so many things that you know,
in a good way, you know, are are trying not
to equate female sexuality with you know, being like out

(01:25:30):
of control or you know, morally wrong that like sometimes
it's just maybe especially like in like if you can't
do it in Horror. I don't know, Like in Horror,
I think sometimes it's just fun that like you're really
horny because of the devil. I was raised Catholic, Like
I don't know, but like for me, that was just
kind of like yeah, you know, like you you leave

(01:25:52):
the farm, you know, like you get the devil and
like then like you know, you are like an erotic
fucking dancer, you know, and I mean like they they
are dancing like so fucking erotically. Yeah, yeah, like maybe
because of Satan and I just enjoyed that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Sorry so sorry, no, no, I'm just processed it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
We're pretty dark sided. So like you know, you just
you should have known who you were discussing this movie.
We should have done truth beverly because it would have
been a much better take.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
We would have had a had it little do.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
You know that? I am mothers.

Speaker 5 (01:26:33):
Spira, You are the hollowest comfortable.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Thank you finally somewhere welcome. I admitted it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
I don't know. I think that's like, especially with scenes
about sex and purity, there's like a bajillion ways to
look at it, some of which I think are really
horny and cool, and then it's like others are not,
and and that's part of why it's a movie and
you can see it however you want.

Speaker 5 (01:27:01):
But it's on the costumes help, Like I I mean,
I think they're like show Girls level, you know what
I mean, Like I feel like too, if you're like
sexy and like an interesting enough costume.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
This is just me.

Speaker 5 (01:27:14):
I just feel like you like transcend gate like somehow
you just like you go outside of like the like
normal realm of just kind of like sex objectness.

Speaker 4 (01:27:24):
And even the middle aged woman as a middle aged
women were really sexy too in this movie, in a
completely unusual take on you know, no plastic surgery, no
like I'm trying to look young but I'm actually sixty
years old. Like they were all kind of sexy and
this really fun different I don't know European people get

(01:27:46):
to do that or something way that I was personally
very impressed by and got some maybe style tips like
again for the age, super cool and you know, I
don't know, I thought they were.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
It's all about the middle part, baby middle part, Yeah,
I mean it's because I read I tried to read
a fair like swath of criticism and praise of this movie,
and I read some writers who came down firmly that
the way that Susie's sexual awakening is framed kind of

(01:28:21):
plays into tropes of how women's sexuality is seen as
dangerous and devious, and how like women's confidence is seen
as like inherently bad. If you view the ending as
Susie being inherently bad, but you can also see it
in a way that's like really fucking cool, and a

(01:28:42):
way that the fact that, like the way that sex
is or even just like horniness in general in this
movie is shown is very like individual, like no one
is hooking up at all, like the way that people
view sex like they're fucking themselves and they're fucking the ground.
It's like women figuring out sex in a very individual way,

(01:29:06):
which you don't really see a lot, and like I
kind of I don't know, it's kind of fun to
see a gorgeous woman fuck the ground. I liked that part,
but then I read criticism of it, and I was like,
was I wrong for liking the part where Dakota Johnson
fucked the ground and I was like, no, I'm not No,
two things can be true.

Speaker 4 (01:29:25):
We're all I didn't read any criticism of the movie,
but I will say no.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
I will say no. I have a quote here. I
wanted to share it because I was looking for sort
of like if there was any sort of thesis statement
that Luca Guagnino had made about this movie, about what
we were talking about specifically, And there was an interview
he did when the movie around, when the movie came
out on movie that sort of addresses this, and it

(01:29:53):
also addresses his hyspiia in relation to Argento's suspiria. So
this for the room. He says this in twenty eighteen quote.
The focus of Dario's movie was the idea of older
women recruiting younger women. The relationship between the girls and
the matrons of My Dance Academy is quite different, as

(01:30:13):
they are terrible mothers aside from casting their magic spells
ideal in the concept of the uncompromising force of motherhood,
a mother is supposed to be caring, nurturing, unbiased, and devoted.
But what if that is all our own prejudgment? Even
if you are the most radical person you think of
motherhood adhering to accepted norms, but real danger lies in

(01:30:34):
that presumption, as motherhood comes from deep conflict, the banality
of postpartum depression, the refusal to bond with the child,
and the complexity of the relationship between mother and daughter
that can often turn into a competition. If you make
a movie about witches, basically a group of women bound
to a pact of solidarity and sorority with power within themselves,

(01:30:56):
you have to be open to the possibility that they
aren't just simple evil care characters. They are very complex
ones and it's not all about nature and nurture unquote.
So that's what I've got with Luca and the girlies.

Speaker 5 (01:31:12):
I wish I hadn't heard that.

Speaker 4 (01:31:15):
Also, Yeah, that's I really usually read absolutely nothing about movies,
and I don't like to read what people say about it.
But yeah, no, that's not less interesting than my thoughts
on it, just you know, because I don't think at
least I was an understanding like that any kind of
like mothers have to be one way or another, Like

(01:31:36):
there's a lot of ways to be a mother, and
I don't you know, So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
I apologize for sharing that quote, but I did it
on purpose, because I just feel like I don't know,
Like I'm not trying to imply that it is impossible
for a man to make a feminist movie. We have
found on this show that that is absolutely not true. However,

(01:32:01):
it is statistically unlikely, and sometimes if they do it,
it is sometimes by accident, or maybe it is like
the way that the movie is received in the general sense,
or received by women and feminists is not necessarily the way,
Like it's sort of a mistake and you kind of
stumbled into this, which is like still net good for

(01:32:22):
the world if there is a feminist movie out there,
even if you didn't mean to. But I just do
I think that I'm trying to think of I know
that there's at least one other example of a movie
we've covered on the show that it's like a movie
about women that is two times over been adapted by
only men, and I feel like that more often than
not results in kind of what we've been bumping up

(01:32:44):
against this whole episode, like for better or worse, like
a lot of dissonance and like not a lot of clarity,
which can be fun because it means it's sort of
like a fun house whatever it's Olga's death Room. It's
a fucking fun house mirror full of ways to view
what you think is being told based on who you
are and how you feel about it. But it just

(01:33:05):
feels like I don't know this movie for all the
parts that I liked and all the parts I did,
and it just felt a little ultimately kind of muddled
and unclear. And I cannot definitively say it's because it's
a story, like it's a story about a coven of
women that is only that has been told conceived of,
and I did even deeper research all of the texts

(01:33:27):
that are cited as being influential on like psychology also men.
It's just like in the way that we I think, oh,
I'm thinking about Carrie, about how Carrie's written by Stephen
King and adapted by Di Palma and other men, where
there's a lot to love about that movie, and there's
a lot that we loved about that movie, but there's
a lot of dissonance because it's sort of men guessing

(01:33:49):
around women's experiences in a way that when it hits,
it's great, and when it doesn't, it's completely baffling because
you're like, what are they trying to say. And that's
I think kind of ultimately where I come down in
this movie. Yeah, there's like it really is.

Speaker 4 (01:34:06):
Yeah, this isn't like the super insightful movie about mothers
or women. I would definitely not, like, you know, for me,
that maybe be like terms of endearment James Brooks, Like,
you know, that's like a great Mother Daughter by a
Man movie.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Okay, I haven't seen that movie in forever.

Speaker 4 (01:34:25):
Yeah, that's a really it's one of my favorite movies.
I also watch a lot of stuff about mothers and
daughters and it's like a whole you know again, I
like the Gilmore Girls will have too, But I don't
think this is that, And I wouldn't want to hear
whatever the director's name is thoughts about motherhood. But I
you know, I personally am often more interested in, like,

(01:34:47):
you know, the bad mother's story than the super wonderful,
redeeming isn't she just the greatest mother ever?

Speaker 2 (01:34:55):
Story?

Speaker 4 (01:34:56):
Yea, even something like Everything Everywhere, which is a mother
daughter's story very little sacraine for somebody like me, but
like so just for my own personal taste, like I
prefer like a big you know, swing at just an
insane rabbit hole of motherhood. Then, like, you know, let's
just really try to as a man, get into that

(01:35:17):
mother daughter bond. I'm gonna I'm gonna crack the code
on that one. You know, I don't know, just stay
out of it. But if you if you're gonna get
into it, like I'd rather see this, I guess.

Speaker 5 (01:35:29):
I mean, everybody comes out unscathed, right, you know motherhood
Nobody you know, like, yeah, he got that part.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
We all have baby hands on us the end of
the day.

Speaker 4 (01:35:42):
You don't know what's underneath this moomo who I'm wearing.
You have no idea what's underneath?

Speaker 3 (01:35:46):
Yeah, you don't want to, I guess. Like for me,
it's I think there is room to examine stories about
mothers and their children, and specifically mothers and daughters and
every way that dynamic could possibly go Like that is,
those are relationship dynamics worth exploring in movies that rarely

(01:36:08):
are explored because most movies, as we always joke about,
but it's true, are about fathers and sons, and so yeah,
it is rare to see a mother daughter relationship or
just like a depiction of motherhood on screen period. Even
attempted to explore right and then and then often when

(01:36:28):
it is it's it is sometimes still told by men,
which means it's probably not going to be very nuanced
or it's going to come from a very male perspective.
Is like, well, this is how I saw my sister
interact with my mom, and they were always fighting because
women are mad at each other all the time. So

(01:36:49):
that's what my movie is about, you know, that kind
of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:36:52):
And that even that's rare. But I'm like, oh, if
my brother made a movie about how he thought my
mom and my relationship was, it would just be incorrect.
It would just be all made up. But that's on him,
and that's a personal call out.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):
Yeah, all that to say, like, there should be more
stories about motherhood. There should be more stories that explore
nuanced relationships between mothers and daughters or mother figures and
a younger generation, you know that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
But I felt like, not totally virtuous perfect moms the
way that we see that mothers. Maybe watcheth Asia.

Speaker 4 (01:37:34):
Better things. Pamela Adlon show is one of my other
personal favorite mother daughter, her mother, you know, like a
three generation mother story. This one had, I guess other
than the creepy, super malty witch woman was maybe their grandmother.
I don't know. Anyway, I do like a sort of

(01:37:54):
multi generational mother story.

Speaker 2 (01:37:57):
Yeah, another one we I'm trying. I mean, like Gilmore Girls.
Another really fun one we just covered recently, Miss June teenth.
That's a great mother daughter story. Like there's so many
good ones, and you know, I think sometimes even though
this movie was, you know, technically a flop, men work forever.

(01:38:18):
They it's very hard for them to fail. And so
even though this was technically a fail, like a financial
failure for this director, he's fine. He has three production
He's fine. I haven't seen this is unrelated. I haven't
seen his next movie, Bones and all. Oh I did
hear it's horny and bloody. Is that true?

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
That is true? Okay, would other words to describe it,
mostly that I didn't like it very much, But that's.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
Just my personal opinion either way. I mean, it's I
I like stories about motherhood, and there's I feel like
it is not a hot take to say that the
best ones and to be written by mother's I think
that's fair to say. So brave of you, we have

(01:39:12):
evidence in this very zoom call that that's the case.

Speaker 3 (01:39:19):
Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss.

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
No, that's it for me.

Speaker 5 (01:39:25):
I would just say that, like, I love the extremity
you know of this movie, and I love how like
like the depths of how horrible a lot of the
mother figures get to be are just two things, two plugs.
Since we talked about a lot of antis, I want

(01:39:50):
to make sure I represent that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:53):
Hell yeah, I just want to touch on that this
is a very white cast. Th There are a few
members of the staff and dancers who are women of color,
but they rarely get lines of dialogue, they get little
to no characterization. All of the important characters to the

(01:40:16):
narrative are white, and it just feels especially pointed that
the cast does include some women of color, but they
are really only there to be in the background. Yeah,
and not at all in the foreground.

Speaker 2 (01:40:31):
Yeah. Only the white characters get any manner of character
arc in this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:40:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40:37):
Yeah, I've never seen any other films by this director.
They're Italian, but I don't know what their deal is
on that topic. Is one off of that or yeah,
you know they're cast in their movie.

Speaker 5 (01:40:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
I honestly don't either. I still have controversially not seen
call Me by your Name, So I don't know. I
did not see Bones and All. But yeah, I also
found it frustrating that it's like if the director clearly
wanted to have a diverse cast but didn't have an
interest in any character outside of the white actors. So

(01:41:13):
that feels double bad to me.

Speaker 3 (01:41:16):
I will say, Bones and All the Crown the main
character is a woman of color, so he course corrected
in that movie.

Speaker 2 (01:41:23):
Yay, Luca.

Speaker 4 (01:41:25):
I think they probably got the money for this for
Tilda Swinton and Dakota Yeah being in it. I assume
that's how this thing was funded. Yeah, and then moved
out from there. But yeah, I doubt this was an
easy funder. Whoever paid for this? I whatever? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
Can you imagine like finance bros who are like, yeah,
i'll help fund your movie. Wait it's about a group.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
Of women, or even we're gonna have Tilda Swinton play
the six Flags guy, we need twenty million dollars.

Speaker 5 (01:42:01):
All they would have had to do is show a
clip of the floor, fucking like, honestly, now I think.

Speaker 2 (01:42:09):
You think that I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:42:11):
They didn't even show anyone breasts. That was the major people, right, Like,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
An outline of Dakota.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):
It's until the end in the freaky blood covered security
footage that you see pretty much everyone that you see
me a gothnake, you see. But I mean whatever, Now
it sounds creepy and like, I'm keeping counts, so I'm
removing myself from this. I've seen him.

Speaker 5 (01:42:36):
Throw money, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):
Last Yeah, I was keeping account of how many nips
I saw and that's feminist, just kidding.

Speaker 3 (01:42:45):
Well, speaking of nips, though, first will before our nipple scale,
we will pass once again remind you that the movie
definitely passes the Bechdel test.

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
Almost over and over. Yeah, yes, yes, except for Flags
guy or exchanges about the six Flags guy, that's pretty much.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
It, which again played by a woman. And we talked
about gender swapped casting recently on the Hairspray episode because
John Traval took place a woman and how it's very
rare for a woman to play a male character, and
this movie is actually one of the few examples I

(01:43:24):
can think of where that happens. And I think till
Swinton does a great job in that performance and in
every performance in this movie, and just in general, in
every movie she's in. But she does such a convincing
job that there were members of the cast of this
movie who didn't know that that was Tilda Swinton. So

(01:43:45):
should that be allowed?

Speaker 2 (01:43:46):
Like should that be allowed?

Speaker 3 (01:43:48):
That does seem to see what do you mean?

Speaker 4 (01:43:51):
Like in like a brad grandpat kind of way, like
you know, like what do you mean?

Speaker 5 (01:43:57):
I like, I just wonder if I'm like at work
doing my job, not consenting, you know, to like not
know who people really are, that's fair.

Speaker 3 (01:44:09):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:44:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:44:11):
Oh so if you're like, oh my god, till such
a bitch and then you like you tell the old guy,
You're like.

Speaker 5 (01:44:17):
Yeah, and I'm like, thank fucking god, I'm not paint
in the barn until the Swinton today.

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):
And then you're like, oh no, I'm fired. It could happen.
She's a chameleon to everyone else's professional detriment. I don't know. Yeah,
that's the only thing, because yeah, that's the only thing
I specifically remember about this movie's like press run was
that at some point it was revealed that till the

(01:44:44):
Swinton was the six Flags guy, and once it was
in like the New York Times, like till the Swinton
announces she's the six Flags guy, and once you know.

Speaker 3 (01:44:54):
You don't see the resemblance the sixth Fox guy doesn't
have hair.

Speaker 2 (01:45:01):
Once you see, once you know that that character is
played by Tildeswinton, it is very clear in like the
voice mostly but I just thought that was funny that that.
I don't have an opinion on it, but that's like
the thing I most clearly remember. I don't remember it
being like it's a reinterpretation of this beloved slasher film.

(01:45:23):
It was like, did you know that till this Winton
put on a lot of makeup every day, just like
when Jim Carrey was The Grinch? And I didn't know that,
and then I proceeded to not see it in theaters?
So what does that say about me? Anyway?

Speaker 3 (01:45:38):
So onto our nipple scale, where we rate the movie
on a scale of zero to five nipples based on
examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Again, I
am still not quite sure how I feel about the movie.
I think things are presented that allow for a read

(01:46:03):
of like, this is a movie about almost entirely women
who are powerful and who are expressing themselves creatively, and
the dynamics between and among them are interesting, you could argue,
And there are strong themes of motherhood and of female

(01:46:26):
creativity and other things that we tend to talk about.
So on the surface, I think it's like pretty cool
a lot of the things that this movie is doing,
but I can't shake the feeling that it I think
if this a similar premise was handed over to a
writer and director who was a woman and who had

(01:46:50):
a much closer relationship with motherhood, or being a daughter
who had a mother, who has a mother, of being
a woman who expresses creativity, like and just like knowing
how groups of women as witches are so often represented
in film, and maybe trying to subvert some of those

(01:47:13):
tropes and subverting the tropes of an older woman being
grotesque and wanting to steal the body of a younger woman,
you know, things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:24):
But I do.

Speaker 5 (01:47:25):
I'm old, and I want to steal.

Speaker 4 (01:47:27):
Till you get there, wait till you get there. I'm
just saying, gimme, gim me, gim me, gimme.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
But but here's what I'm gonna I'm just gonna suck
the blood of young men. And that's how I'll stay youthful.

Speaker 4 (01:47:44):
They're not as nearly as beautiful. I'm sorry one woman's opinion.
I wouldn't cross the street to.

Speaker 5 (01:47:58):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:47:58):
I I don't know. I think this movie there's interesting things.
I think visually it's cool and beautiful. I just still
don't know quite what I'm supposed to take away as
far as like the filmmaker's intentions. I think there's some
muddled stuff there that to me appear to just be

(01:48:19):
relying on tropes of well, powerful women who are near
each other, Well, they are witches and they're gonna kill you.
But also it could just be an examination of power
regardless of gender, of the gender of the person who
is wielding that power, like that power needs to be
kept in check, and you know, just because a woman

(01:48:42):
has power doesn't mean that she should abuse it or something.
I don't know. There are a lot of different ways
to read the story of this movie, But I don't know.
I just I'm so tired of like women are witches
and evil stories. So I think I'll give the movie, like,

(01:49:03):
I don't know, two two and a half nipples, and
I will give one to Dakota. What is it not
Fanning Johnson Coda Johnson, I will give one to alec Weck,
who plays the one of the matrons. She is I

(01:49:25):
think the only black woman in the movie who has lines,
and she only has like two of them, And I'll
give my I'll give my half nipple to friend of
the cast Jessica Harper.

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
Kay. Yeah, I'm gonna go down the middle on this
movie as well. I do think I am like, maybe
this opinion I will will be changed, as with most
opinions that we've had at various points on this show
over time, but this does feel very much to me,
even though it was in reduction and in development for

(01:50:01):
so long, the way that it came out feels very
of a very specific cultural moment where I think you
get a lot of male o tours attempts at having
women meaningfully included in their movies, and I think that
this very much depends from director to director level of success,

(01:50:24):
level of possibly pandering or guessing their way around an
experience that they don't share. It's just like, it just
feels very men are making movies post me too, and
look at this one a lot of like we've been
talking about for the past two hours, not all of
it works for me. I think that, yeah, there is
a lot of saying the right thing, but the theme

(01:50:47):
kind of undermining the right thing quote unquote that was said.
And then there is a lot of like I think,
interesting ideas in this movie. I like the historical context
it puts everyone into building out the worlds of the
women that exist within this coven. I like the fact that,

(01:51:08):
like I like the just general idea because I feel like,
in this same span of time and I think this
is continuing now, there is this sort of very naive
assumption that if if women ruled the world, everything would
be perfect, and you're like, well, that excludes literally every
other possible element of being a person in a way

(01:51:28):
that is ultimately I think reductive to women to think
that women would completely get it right when there's still
very much human and there's all of these other elements
that factor into being a person. So I like that
the women in this story are imperfect in different ways,
but overall, especially after reading how the director was kind

(01:51:49):
of gaming it out, I think a lot of it
doesn't work and it's not something I will revisit, but
you know it I would love to see as much
Like I like that Luca Guadnino did this but I
would love to see more Coven stories that are written
by women. If they're going to majority include women, it

(01:52:12):
still feels like that isn't happening on the level it
should be. And in conclusion, I think that's why people
should watch teenage Euthanasia. And so I'm going to give
this two and a half nipples. I'm going to give
one to Dakota Johnson's architectural digest house video, which you

(01:52:33):
can watch on YouTube. It is so funny. She's lying
out her ass the whole time. She's some of the
only good nepotism available. As far as I know, I
love her. I'm going to give one to me a goth,
and I will give the remaining half nipple to the
Six Flags guy, the actual one.

Speaker 3 (01:52:54):
Oh sure do do do do?

Speaker 2 (01:52:56):
Do?

Speaker 3 (01:52:56):
Do?

Speaker 5 (01:52:56):
Do? Do?

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
Yeah? Exactly and so on.

Speaker 4 (01:52:59):
Well, I'm not going to defend this this movie to
the end of the earth. But I enjoyed watching it,
and I enjoyed watching it the first time, and this
time I like things that are kind of a mess
that you don't know what to make. It's again a
personal preference. I don't like a I don't like a
straight line. I don't like a I like a pretzel,
and I don't like when people tell me what to think,

(01:53:21):
because then I immediately stopped thinking it. So for those people,
you might like this, and then I thought it was
again I'm all into anything about women creativity. So I
don't know. I'm gonna give it a three nipple. I'm
not going more than that, but I'm gonna go a
little higher, and I'm going to give one to me
a goth, and one to the production designer and the

(01:53:45):
wardrobe hair team because it was really fun. Editors were
good too. It was a well made movie.

Speaker 2 (01:53:53):
Yeah, technically, no denying that.

Speaker 5 (01:53:55):
Hell yeah, can I can I give hollow counts instead
of nipples? Yeah, okay. If it didn't have Tilda eating
chicken wings, I I think then I would give it
a three. But it does have have that, And it

(01:54:17):
was really hard to watch all of the bone breaky thing,
you know, like it's very very difficult, you know, to
to make me look away. And I thought that, yeah,
a lot of like the bone breaky horror.

Speaker 4 (01:54:33):
Was good, and bone breaky stuff was about the chicken wings.

Speaker 2 (01:54:41):
The most painful views.

Speaker 5 (01:54:43):
I mean, if we could have extended that sequence, yeah,
then it could have been five hollow cunts. I'm gonna
I'm going to go three point five hollow cunts.

Speaker 4 (01:54:53):
I'm going to do that.

Speaker 5 (01:54:55):
I like, it's just a weird one, you know, it's
a it's a problematic weird one.

Speaker 2 (01:55:00):
And I liked the ride. And I'll give all.

Speaker 5 (01:55:04):
Of the hollow cunts to the super witch Mother creature.
She needs all the teats and the cunts that she
can find, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:55:15):
Hell yea.

Speaker 3 (01:55:15):
Yeah, she's collecting them for an undisclosed.

Speaker 2 (01:55:18):
Later project, so that she's had in development for the
amount of time this movie was in development exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:55:25):
Well, thank you both so much for joining us for
this discussion.

Speaker 4 (01:55:30):
Yeah, this was funny.

Speaker 2 (01:55:31):
Time tell us about teenage Euthanasia and where you can
check it out.

Speaker 5 (01:55:36):
Well, you can check it out on Adult Swim. New
episodes drop on Wednesday nights at midnight, and then they're
available the next day on Max. You can slide right
into season two. You don't need to watch season one first.
You can you can kind of like dip, you know,

(01:55:58):
to your hollow count in the water with season two,
and then you know, if you like how it feels,
you can watch season one. But they are Season one
is up in its entirety on Max to stream and
available and it is about, yeah, we have we have
definitely the dysfunctional matriarchy family funeral home that is run

(01:56:23):
by a woman. It's three generations of you know, female
characters passing their trauma down to the other in kind
of like a parallel universe post apocalyptic Florida.

Speaker 4 (01:56:37):
And if you like hollow cunts, you might be disappointed
because the main character's vagina is filled with crotch, beetles,
magical ones. She's a zombie, reanimated corpse and who has
death powers. And also it's animated. We don't have Suspiria
level budgets here, so this is an animated program.

Speaker 3 (01:56:58):
Yes, no, still amazing it is.

Speaker 2 (01:57:01):
It is if you like the opposite of a hollowed
out cunt and just one that is so full, just
an over a cornucopia of various with insight, is a
teeming cunt, well then do we have the show for you.
I feel like I should also full disclosure, I'm a

(01:57:24):
writer on the show and I love it very much
and I think you should watch it because it rocks
and it's teeming with you know, vaginas full of beetles, and.

Speaker 5 (01:57:35):
You, I've got to say, have just brought the grossness
and the body hord to a level that I think
Alison and I could have only dreamed of in our
conception of teenage usanasia. So we are just so in
our gratitude to you for that.

Speaker 4 (01:57:52):
Yeah, a tip of the cunt to you, Jamie. It's
just an absolute pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:57:57):
Oh my cunt runneth over, Thank you so much. No,
it's it's the absolute best. I love shoving new disgusting
insects into our characters.

Speaker 4 (01:58:08):
It's the greatest.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
And you can find the Betel Cast in all their
regular places. You can find us on Instagram and whatever
they're calling it now on at Bechtel Cast. You can
follow our Patreon ak Matreon Wow, pretty scary German dance
study of us. For five dollars a month, you get

(01:58:31):
two bonus episodes a month. Imagine that.

Speaker 3 (01:58:34):
Imagine that. You can also grab our merch at teapublic
dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your
merchandising needs. And just a little reminder that all of
our merch is designed by a one Jamie Loftus, so
even more reason to get it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:52):
Cunt run of Over, for merch with them.

Speaker 3 (01:58:57):
Many talents you go, okay, let's all right, go with
into the basement and dance around shed top rotting hearts.

Speaker 2 (01:59:09):
Bye bye

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Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

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