Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
High Bechtel Cast listeners. This is Gen and this is Caitlin,
So we just wanted to do a quick explainer at
the top of this episode. We're doing something a little
different this time. UM. We're covering Tangerine, a movie that
you know us. We have a lot of blind spots
going into analyzing this movie, so we wanted to get
a number of perspectives on it. UM, so you will

(00:22):
hear not one, but three different guests today. Kai choice
is with us for the majority of the episode, but
we also have UM analyzes and input from two other
incredible guests, Dhalia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward
to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that

(00:43):
we talked with Um Dahlia and with Violet after the
recording of this original episode. Yes, so UM enjoy the episode.
On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and um are all they're just gassions, just boyfriends
and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef

(01:05):
in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello
and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
My name is Jamie loftus. It's us. This is our podcast.
This is our feminist movie podcast, where we lead our
discussion and our analysis using the Bechtel test, which is

(01:25):
a media test made by queer writer Alison Bechtel, sometimes
called the Bechtel Wallace test. But Caitlin, it's been a
couple of weeks. What is the Bechdel test? Simply don't
remember she is? I'll see if I can remember. Um. Now,
historically we have and many people have used a version

(01:47):
of the Bechtel test. That it's funny to use the
word historically in as it pertains to us a show
that's been on for four years historically though, No, historically,
I see where're going, I see whe're going this than
you so much. But like with us, and then also
on a larger scale, many people use the Becktel tests
in terms of do two women speak to each other?

(02:10):
That's what we've always said. Now, in in our ongoing
effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way
we see the Bechtel test, and rather than two women
or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about
something other than a man, the version of the test
that we are going to use moving forward is two

(02:33):
people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that
includes non binary people, that includes intersex people, that includes
trans men speak to each other about something other than
a cyst man that says maya, because if there's anything
we don't need more of in cinema, says its men. Right,

(02:58):
So that is our back tests moving forward. Uh, shall
we try to make it pass? Okay? Yes, okay, this
is a special dystopian edition of Betel Test. Ready, Uh,
let's run it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I don't know why,
but the National Guard just flew a drone over my house.

(03:22):
Just something terrifying to think about. Um, then we're talking
about a drone that's an example of the mental test
being passed. Yeah, that is scary. We live in a
police state and um fuck the police. Defund the police. Yes,
if you, if you, if you're pro cop log out, yeah,

(03:43):
go do some reading. Anyways. Um, yes, I'm very excited
for the movie that we're covering today. This has been
a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this
movie for a long time. Um, but I'm glad we're
doing that. We'recovering Tangerine, Yes, we are, and we have
a guest with us as always a special guest. He
is a comedian podcaster host of Women Who Kill podcast

(04:06):
It's Kai Choice. How's it going? It is? It's it's going,
it is, it is going. That feels like, yeah, it
feels like the right. But was that a real That
was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually
happened to you know. I was on the phone with
Caitlin before you jumped on the zoom call and it
was like it became really loud all of a sudden,

(04:28):
and I looked out the window and there was just
a gigantic, like low flying drone just going over my
neighborhood that I need to do some googling about. I
was like, I thought, are they still here? Like I don't,
I don't know, but it was very close and very
I've never seen one in real life me either. Yeah,
shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time

(04:50):
this episode airs, I will know more, but given who knows, Yeah,
you'll be fine. Keep us posted, Yeah, I will. Were
excited terrifying drones aside. We're happy we're here. Yes, like
we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine Kai. What

(05:11):
is your relationship with this film. I love this movie.
I saw this movie for the first time a couple
of years ago, and the only thing that made me
want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy,
but also I heard they shot it on an iPhone,
and I was like, I need to see how terrible
this is. And it wasn't. It's great. No, It's like

(05:36):
I I think that if I didn't know that this
movie was shot on an iPhone going into my first viewing,
I wouldn't have guessed it. I would I would have
been like, oh, it looks like a d I Y movie,
But I never would have guessed it was shot on
an iPhone. Yeah, I would have thought they just they
did something weird to stylize it. I'm like, no, that's
that's just how it looks when and that's what you use.

(05:56):
But it worked. Also, two white guys to guys produced it. Yes,
that impressed me. We'll talk all about that. But the
director of this movie is a white man named Sean Baker,
and then he co wrote it with Chris Berg Go Brogock. Well,
we'll talk about that though, because I think that I

(06:17):
think that the writing credits of this movie are a
little are are a little bit belonged to other people? Yes, yes,
impro well yeah, and we'll we'll cover this more when
we get into this discussion. But the central conflict of
this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one
lead actor, in particular Katana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy,

(06:41):
actually a few things that happened in the movie a
few pretty major plot points or like again the whole
story are like experience. Yeah, yeah, things that either happened
to her or friends of like happened to friends of
hers that she just kind of like relay the information
to these white sis male screenwriters. And I mean there's

(07:04):
there's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to
be had. But okay, yeah, the production of this movie
I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect.
I didn't know much about the production of this movie.
And there's there there were a lot of twists and
turns for sure in production. There's a there's a do
plass brother that gets involved. You're just like whoa, whoa, whoa.
There's well, Jamie, what's your relationship in history with it?

(07:28):
I have seen this movie before. I really really enjoyed
it UM the first time I watched it, just because
I think it had come to streaming recently and I
just wanted to see it because it means like, it's
the iPhone movie and it's great, and I was like, okay, UM,
and I really really enjoyed it the first time I
watched it. UM. I wasn't at the time, I wasn't
watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it

(07:49):
for UM for the show. And I guess what, I
still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same what
about you, Caitlin. Yeah, I saw it it came out. UM.
I probably didn't watch it for the first time until
a couple of years later. I think I saw in
SEV the first time, and I had heard similar things
like they shut the whole thing on an iPhone, isn't
that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like, who cares

(08:11):
about that? Like it's such a monumental film for so
many other reasons, Um, And it's so fun. It's so funny.
It's I mean a romp, you know me. I love
a good romp. UM. But it's Yeah, I loved it.
I watched it. I've seen it a few times now.
Over the years, and um, big fan. But I think
it's kind of selfishly. It's fun because it takes place

(08:33):
near where we all live. Oh I know where? Oh cool?
I think I know every driven past, don't a time before.
But also there there are parts where you're like, you
didn't walk there, you didn't walk from there, There's no way.
I was like, I'm cutting two hours later. Cool, So

(08:55):
should we jump in? Yeah, let's do the recap. So
it's Christmas Eve, It's a Christmas in Los Angeles. It's
a Christmas movie, right, it is? Oh, this is good.
That should be added to the like official holiday movie masterless. Sure.
And one of many reasons I like this movie is

(09:15):
that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time,
that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It
kind of sometimes like lighting. I feel like that the
main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun
holiday lighting and something you're like, but for the most part,
everyone's just like, I don't really give a funk that
it's Christmas. And I'm like, that's how I feel. As

(09:36):
the resident um Scrooge mcgrinch of the group, Um, did
you just yes? That is what I said, and I'm
so sorry, everybody innovating, innovating all over life. Thank You's
actually the name of my new screenplay, Um Scrooge mcgrinch,
The the Anti Christmas Story, The Anti christ Mass Story. Yes,

(10:04):
it starts. Who does it start? Who does it start? Oh? Um?
Oh my gosh. Honestly, if Alfred Molina is not in
this movie, I'll pitch a fit. So you belong to
somewhere in this universe. I'm assuming it's an expanded universe.
There's a lot, you know, grant I need. I need
at least four movies the un fact. You'll get them.

(10:28):
I'm working on it. Um okay. Anyway, So it's It's
Christmas Eve in Los Angeles? Ever heard of it? And
we meet West Hollywood, specifically in West Hollywood. Yeah, we
meet Cindy played by Katana Kikei Rodriguez. And you got
to spell it. Yes, it's not the like c I
N d y spelling that you might be conte. It's

(10:53):
s I N d E last name, last name Rella.
So Cindy Rella, yes, or is our protagonist's name? You
don't call a protagonist. I can do that, though I'm
not sure I will. Um and then, um, she is

(11:14):
with Alexandra played by Maya Taylor, and they are best
friends and they are both trans sex workers. In their conversation,
Alexander lets it slip that Cindy's boyfriend and pimp Chester
has been cheating on her with a white CIS woman
whose name they're not totally sure of, but they think

(11:36):
it begins with the D And this was happening while
Cindy was gone for the past few weeks, and we
found out later that she was in jail for possession
of drugs that she was holding for Chester. She was
in jail for twenty eight days, right, Okay, yeah, this
is actually the sequel to twenty eight days later. By

(11:57):
the way, r I p donut time. I know it
was a simpler time. It was a donut your time.
There was a donut your time. Wow, you're not wrong.
Um okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady
the Fish the Fish, and Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her,

(12:22):
and she's also handing out flyers for a show that
Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at seven pm. Yes,
this is where the walking comes in. You're just like
how do we get here so quickly? Right? Meanwhile, we
meet Razmic Rasmic, a cab driver, and we see him

(12:43):
driving some people around hill. Is this before? Is this before?
Is this bu? Is this before? Uber? Or Uber was
definitely a thing at this point, it was just kind
of new. Maybe wasn't a gigantic threat to the cabin
district yet. I don't know, because he seemed busy, right,

(13:05):
he was always driving, and it was like, yeah, I
guess it would have been cab times. I also, I
mean this movie was like shot Wait, let me get
the exact dates of when this was shot, because it
might have been shot like at an even more cab time.
Let me see. Okay, it was filmed at the end
of So I feel like that is pretty firmly like

(13:27):
before uber really really caught on, right, it was still
it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't
know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and
lift was it wasn't super popular. But um, Kyle, you
said be you, and that provides an opportunity for me
to bring up something that I hated to college. Um no,

(13:50):
that's b why you I went to bust you. Yeah,
and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting. There, Um,
thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose.
I hate to bring it up, but you left me
no choice. Um. Okay, So we meet this cab driver
and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash

(14:10):
played by Ian Edwards, who um as a comic an
actor of course, but super funny. Yeah. She asks Nash
if he has seen Chester and he tells her to
go to a food line where she might be able
to get some more information from people. That leads her
to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile,

(14:35):
Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get
into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he
completely short changes her. Um from the jump, and then
the situation escalates because cops get involved. And because this
is fiction, the cops are hell of cool. Yeah, the
cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas

(14:59):
right right, Like I'm going to let this one slide.
And you're just like, okay, really would you do that?
I don't think So it's still fucked up. So then
we see we're back to Rasmick driving around cruising. He's
looking for a sex worker to pick up, and we
learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. Uh.

(15:22):
And then he and Alexander cross paths because he is
a regular client of hers. Then Cindy finally finds the
woman she's looking for. Her name is Nina, pulls her
out of this party room at this motel and starts
dragging her part. Excellent, that's such a nice that's a

(15:44):
nice way of putting it. I know that motel by
the way, Wait, where is it Hollywood? And okay, oh yeah,
I used to drive past there all the time going
to Nerd Melt. I used to work at it. The
only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that
provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone

(16:09):
knew that that motel is like legit, that's all that
motel does is they rent by the hour two sex workers.
And it was it was nice to see that, you know,
they're still doing business, they're still doing really well. Got
some some full frontal male nudity. We see at least
one dick. Yeah, it's a it's a scared dick. It's

(16:29):
a dick against the wall. And you're like, yeah, she
finds Dinah. She finds Dinah and pulls her out, like
drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her
across town towards donut time, where she finds out that
Chester is But then she realizes it's a little past
seven pm and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy

(16:52):
drags Dina to Hamburger Mary's to get on a buss.
You never see That's like one small representation thing that
I always really appreciate it, but you never see like
protagonists use public transit like it's and when you actually
see it, you're like people people of course like there,

(17:14):
but yeah, they they hang out on a real life
l a city bus. What a dream and everyone has
seen that. You know, if you've ever like taken a
bus for more than a couple of days at a time,
you've you've seen a situation like that, You're like, I'm
gonna pretend this isn't happening right now, this is none
of my business. Someone is probably in danger, but this
is a low key hostage situation. There, it's a hostage drump.

(17:40):
Everyone minded their own business. It was nice, we all
got to where we were going. Um so Meanwhile, we
see razmake at home and realize that he is married.
He and his wife has a small child. His mother
in law lives with them, so we realized basically he's
kind of living this double life. There are Armenian yes, there,

(18:03):
Armenian there. I mean, it is like there are so
many elements of this movie that make it like an
awesome l A movie because it's so many like underrepresented
communities in l A specifically are in the end, it's
it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them
like actually characterized and not just like in passing is

(18:24):
for the amount of movies that take place in l A.
It's like a super rarity is cool totally um. So,
he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's. Then
we see her singing at the show, and then we
also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less
antagonistic than they were a little bit. I wanted to

(18:45):
see Dina continue to be beaten because the only two
white people in this movie are the kind of white
people who use the N word because they think it's cool,
and so anytime something bad was about to happen to them.
I'm like, yes, bring it more and Chester and Chester. Yeah,

(19:08):
it's it is wild because there is such a huge
build in the movie to you meeting Chester, and then
when you meet Chester, you're like what you expect? You're
just like, this is who we were. So this guy,
all right, maybe he has a great personality. And then
he doesn't know, doesn't this is who everyone was fighting for,

(19:30):
right Literally Chester has no idea how good he has it? Right? Yeah,
their their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke.
Was that is that crap? Me? Okay? Yeah, I don't
know drugs? Embarrassing? How do you live in l A
and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square.

(19:54):
It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing l
A Is known for. So that happens, and then Cindy
also fixes Dina's smudgy makeup, so it's like maybe they're
starting to be sort of friendly toward each other. The
makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until

(20:14):
she cried it off. Correct. It's very sweet, it is.
It is like that. It ends up being a very
tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too,
where it's just like things are like happening, happening, happening.
It's a rob We're going from place to place very quickly,
and then every once in a while you get like
to really hang somewhere. And it's not always with the

(20:35):
characters that you expect, like I wasn't expecting a longer
scene with Cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom, right,
but but it just feels right, and it gives you
a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together.
You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. M So
then they head back towards don't time to link up
with Chester. We can talk about how terrible the show was.

(21:00):
Oh yeah, it's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes, um,
no one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians, um,
we understand. We get it, especially around like the holidays
in l A. And if you're like still doing shows,

(21:20):
you're just like there's four lonely people and they're so
into it, and then other than that there's no one
and you're just like, uh, you know what I wish
they had done? I wish that in the middle of
her song they had turned on a blender. You're someone
started shaking a drink really hard every time every time
someone orders a fucking daker. Who's ordering a dabt? Who

(21:46):
and whoever it is then is like heckling from the back.
You're just like god, right, And then we find out
that she had to basically like pay to get stage time.
We've all I definitely have paid five dollars to participate
in an open mic before. But it's an audition, right,

(22:09):
it's valuable. You're being charged in experience there. I thought
Alexandra's performance was lovely. I was, it was really sweet
and really nice, and I was just I don't know. Yeah,
it's just like a holiday time show field where you're
just like, be so nice if there were people here. Okay.

(22:31):
So then so they're heading back towards donut time. Meanwhile,
Resume is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he
missed them at Hamburger Mary's, so he asks their friends
where they might be, and then he also heads towards
don't at time. But he lied to his family. He
lied to his family and his son. His mother in

(22:53):
law is suspicious, so she gets in another cab and
hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra, and Dinah arrive
at doughnut time and Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet
on screen for the first time, about cheating on her
with Dinah. Chester is all like, no, Cindy, I love you,

(23:14):
you or my fiance And then everyone's like, wait a minute,
what you're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time, y yep,
and then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah
and just then um Rasmiek shows up because he wants
to spend time with Cindy, but right then his mother

(23:36):
in law also shows up and she realizes what Resmuk
has been getting into this whole time. So there's a
lot of yelling, and then she calls her daughter, Resuk's
wife and she shows up, and then there's more yelling.
Woman who owns the donut shop, like why does this
keep happening? She keeps she keeps threatening to call the
cops um, which again would have in real life resulted

(23:59):
in everyone dying. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up.
That's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency, Okay,
we'll be there in six hours. But anyway, so Rasmus
wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife
has to look the other way because he is the

(24:23):
sole breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call
me down here? I know, trying to pretend this isn't happy.
Now you have to embarrass everybody, right, But anyway, so
it seems like everything's going to be okay after all
this chaos has just erupted. But then Chester is like,
wait a minute, Alexandra is the one who told you

(24:43):
that I was cheating Cindy. Well did she mention that
she and I had sex? And then Cindy is devastated
that her best friend would betray her like that, so
she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's
not having any of it. And then she's tried to
go to work. Uh, some awful bastards throw a cup

(25:03):
of urine on Cindy, and then Alexander runs over and
helps her get cleaned up. They go to a laundromat
and she knows she washes her off, and then she
gives Cindy her hair and then they make up and
that's the end of their night, and the end of
the movie. Why is Chester the what? Why can can

(25:25):
no one do better than Chester? I don't understand, Yes,
zero redeemable quality because you see these women like knowing
their worth a lot, Like throughout the whole movie they're like, no,
like you have to give me more money, Like I'm
not doing that. Like there's a lot of them knowing
their word. Not to defend Chester, but and I'm not

(25:49):
defending Chester, but there's a lot of strong women who
know they're worth who are inevitably like kind of inexplicably
with a Chester drawn to forty year old who still
have skateboards, right, And you're just like, okay, so this
is just this is there's something that you know, like
Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's you know, everyone has a

(26:12):
I have a certain kind of shitty guy that I'm
to have a chance. It's not the Chester type, but
I have my Chesters. You know, I've had my share
of Chesters. Sure Gus hasn't had a Chester too. Yeah, Well,
let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
back to discuss the film. And we're back. So where begin.

(26:42):
There's there's so much, so many wonderful things to talk about.
Does it make sense to get into some of the
context in terms of like the production and development of
this movie. Sure thing first, yeah, so, so I think
that the surprising thing for me because again, when I
was watching this movie the first time, I'm I didn't
do research on the director. I was just watching it

(27:04):
to enjoy it. But the director and one of the
two credited writers on this movie is a director, Sean Baker,
who is like a white guy who went to n
y U. Which I don't know what I was expecting,
but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to
n y U. And so I think that that is like,

(27:27):
that's worth discussing here because I think that this movie
is um is and is considered a step forward in
trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films, let's say,
and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have
been made if Mark Duplas hadn't gotten involved and if

(27:49):
this guy, Sean Baker hadn't directed it. So he made
movies before. I think this was his first like big,
really popular movie, and then he went on to he
also made The Florida Project, but same same writing team,
same director, and same font on the poster even say

(28:10):
I think so, I mean, it's it's nothing. I mean,
I don't know of anything negative about Sean Baker, but
I do think that that is something that has come
up on our show before. Where um, sometimes in movies
that are like pushing forward in some ways, you still
have a lot of the old guard, let's say, behind

(28:33):
the camera, which kind of which sucks. Like you, I mean, ideally,
there should be more black directors being able to direct
black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans
stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need
for a white guy who went to n Y you
really involved at all. In this case, a beautiful movie

(28:57):
was was turned out by it. But that kind of
it into what we were talking about a bit at
the top of the show, which is the writing process.
And once you find out that like a do Plas
brother is involved, the writing style kind of all comes together.
You're like, okay, so yeah, You're like, okay, so this

(29:18):
movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written
because that's a very like do Plas brothers. They're the
they're the mumble core kings whatever, and it seems like
this movie had a very similar approach to writing. So
my understanding, based on just the production history and on
interviews I read at the time that the movie was

(29:38):
coming out, was that Sean Baker did not wasn't ingratiated
in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He is.
He was just kind of a guy who made movies
and was looking for stories to tell and lived in
West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community.

(30:00):
He was aware of the trans community, but he you know,
obviously he didn't have any experience there himself. And so
he started to um talk with the two women who
eventually started this movie, uh, Katana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor,
and through Caitlin you were saying this earlier, but through
talking with them, getting to know them, uh, spending time

(30:21):
with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right
to tell through talking with them, and like you were saying,
a lot of the major plot points in this movie
are based on the experiences that either they or their
friends had had. Because they are both former sex workers,
they are both trans women, they like very much lived

(30:44):
this experience their characters are depicting in the movie, which
On one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters
played by trans actors, which is unfortunately historically in Hollywood
pretty rare. Red Maine, I feel like he still hasn't

(31:05):
had to answer for that. Oh for the Danish girl.
Um and the fact that, yeah, I mean they are
black trans women. They have this experience of being former
sex workers. It's there kind of real life story that's
being told through this movie. That again was as far
as the credited writers go, is these two sis white men. Yeah,

(31:30):
it's a really long way of getting to the fact
that Keiki and Maya should based on everything I've read
and seen about this movie, they should be credited as
writers of this movie just as much, if not more so,
than Sean Baker and Chris berg BERGA sure how to
say it? Question mark? Who's this? Chris guy? Who is?

(31:54):
There's no Wikipedia? But this is also in addition to,
like again, major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences. UM.
I also read that a lot of the dialogue that
was written into the script got basically altered, improvised, adapted

(32:14):
to be more authentic, to be more authentic, right, So
it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue, I
could tell that Chester's lines were written by a straitcist,
like that that was written on a fucking MacBook Pro.
Those lines right there. Final, Yeah, it's true, And I

(32:40):
feel like, yeah, when you when you know that going
into watching the movie, the viewing experience is it's still
a wonderful movie, but it's a little different because you
can hear those written scenes in there, like under this
like very authentic, like natural feeling dialogue from Kiki and Maya.
And I was also saying reading and hearing in the

(33:00):
interviews that they gave around this, the Kiki and Maya
were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker
and pushing to make the movie funny and to make
it a romp. And they're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah. Sure,
Like their line readings were ridiculous. It's hilarious, so perfect,

(33:21):
and it seems like and I think that a tendency
a lot for white filmmakers telling non white stories is
to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy,
and even though there are sad things that happen inside
of this movie, it doesn't feel like a weighed down,

(33:41):
tragic story, and that sounds based on all the interviews,
it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and
Maya pushing for that. So there, I cannot find a
reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not
credited as writers right on this movie. So to speak

(34:03):
to that a little more. Um. This is a quote
from an article in The Guardian where it says quote
the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more
downbeat and dramatic had Rodriguez not put her foot down. Um,
looking back, he realized how right she was. She was
asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream

(34:25):
audiences in a pop culture way so that they could
identify with them. End quote. So then pay her for that.
Like it's just it's so annoying when people pull this
ship and continue to pull this ship because m yeah,
I mean it seems like they wrote more of the
story than he did. I know, He's like, eventually I

(34:47):
realized that, you know, she was kind of right about
like how the story that she basically created should be told,
you know, like she had she had good instincts, I guess.
And He's like yeah, I'll put my name on that. Sure.
It's just like Jesus Christ there, and it's so many

(35:07):
things at once because I just like it's frustrating because
it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker
is a bad person, and I think that he made
a lovely movie, but it just doesn't seem like Kiki
and Maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence
and work that they did and had over this movie

(35:30):
that the actors made it totally. And yeah, especially because
like a writing credit would have meant that they got
more money, they would have been paid more and and
things like that, they could have been nominated for writing
awards like there. And another thing that this movie I
think was like considered as like a milestone that Tangerine

(35:50):
pushed forward was some of the first Um, the oscars suck,
so of course they slept on it, but um, some
of the first like acting nominations for trans women were
because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean there
there is a lot of if not first, um, some
of the best in recent memory progress for for representation.

(36:14):
But it's still just the fact that at the end
of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white
guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating, and it's
like I wish I could say I were surprised. Um,
I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this though,
because it was the Boy. They shot it on three

(36:37):
five s right, and they edited it and I think,
just like I movie, probably no, it was it was
super I mean, it seems like they used equipment that
they already had to make it. But even that aside,
it's like they still have a whole crew they have.
There's a lot of performers in this movie, and you

(36:58):
have to imagine they're not making a ton of money
to do it. And it's like Mark Duplas, you have money,
come on, Mark, sir. In any case. Yeah, Well, something
that has been coming up for us a lot is
we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be

(37:22):
inclusive in the writing. And we've been saying again this
more often more recently. But you know, we we're not
saying that a white ciss man couldn't make a great
movie about black trans sex workers. Because we saw that
they did that did happen? And um, I have a

(37:45):
quote here from another article entitled What Tangerine taught Hollywood
about how to tell trans stories. From the publication them
quote to craft a story about a world with which
they had little experienced, director Sean Baker and his writing
partner Chris Berg um new when to ask for help

(38:09):
right away. The humility demonstrated by Baker and Berg in
copying to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject
upfront is essential for any syst filmmaker who wants to
incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. All and
the quote there, and we'll post this article because I
think the whole thing is worth reading. But um, that's

(38:31):
what we always say, like, do your homework. You can
represent communities responsibly even if you do not belong to
that community. It is going to be much harder for you,
and it will take a lot more homework. Um. But
I guess and I don't want to, but it must
sound like I'm giving these guys too much credit. But
the bottom line is, yeah, definitely that like these two actors,

(38:53):
the lead actors in this movie should have been given
far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie,
way more than they were. Yeah. I mean it's like
if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important,
but you also need to like give credit where credited
is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is

(39:14):
also something that you do financially, and it's something you
do by like using your own influence to continue to
like provide a platform and provide Like it's just I
Sean Baker is more on the right track than I
think a lot of sins white guys are. But it's
still the fact that I'm just like they should have

(39:38):
been paid more, they should have been credited more, and
because like this movie was nominated for a lot of
behind the scenes stuff too, and and and they should
have you know, gotten a cut of that as well.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, what have they done after this? Uh?
Not too much? And for intunately that this is um

(40:01):
Kiki Rodriguez is only film credit, and Maya has been
in a few other things but mostly short films. And
then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came
out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Lou
and Adrian Grenier. I don't so so she's she's she's working,
but it but Kiki isn't as much And I feel like,

(40:26):
that's something too. It's it's the fact that Sean Baker,
you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a
springboard and go on to make The Florida Project, a
movie that I mean, I haven't seen it. I know
it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget
and a movie like he was able to leverage Tangerine
into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women

(40:46):
whose story he was literally telling with Tangerine, And did
they get left behind in in an unfair way? And
and what meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience,
however well told, as a springboard for his own career.
Yuh um. This is a good time to cut to

(41:08):
our next segment with another one of our special guests.
She is a stand up in improv comic, a dungeon master,
and sometimes freestyle rapper. It's Violet Gray. Hello, Hello, thank
you so much for having me, Thank you for being here.
So more or less, we just wanted to hear your thoughts,

(41:29):
specifically on the representation of black trans women in the
movie Tangerine. Sure, so, I was just telling my partner
that my position on this has evolved quite a bit
because if you had asked me fifteen years ago what
I thought of the representation of black trans women in
the movie Tangerine, I would have talked about this uncomfortable

(41:54):
consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as
like drug addicted prostitutes. But since then, in the last
fifteen years or so, I've really evolved on what it
means to be a sex worker and what it means

(42:15):
to have addiction, and um, I would say, there's nothing wrong,
there's nothing shameful about being in the sex industry. And
one thing I did like is that I mean, there
was a scene where they're using drugs, they're smoking crack,
and it didn't happen until much later in the movie,

(42:39):
and I thought that was good because it established them
as humans. First, they're not drug addicts, they're humans who
do drugs um uh and and it took them out
of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood
that that in ironment is is some people's realities. I

(43:03):
was thankful that they were humanized the way they did.
I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me
of myself. So there's a scene where she where Cindy
is in the subway train and she is looking out
of the window. I don't think a lot of people
realize that if you're a trans person, that can be

(43:27):
a sort of defense mechanism, because you're pretty much locked
in a box with complete strangers for a while, and
when you're looking out the window, they can't see your
face and they can't see your features. Yes, so I
guess that there's something to be said about how black

(43:48):
trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is
a conversation there, but I also think that hey, sex
workers and people who have substance of these issues are
humans too, absolutely, and I think ultimately this movie was
more about friendship and adversity than any of that. Definitely,

(44:12):
to speak to the um SO, I was just talking
about how just last night, at the time of this recording,
this documentary just came out on Netflix. But the doc
Disclosure that um Laverne Cox, among many other people, executive produced.
They touch on this specific thing in the documentary about
how the representation of black trans women, especially in media,

(44:37):
that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately, and
there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many black
trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out,
there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine
why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate

(44:59):
for black trans women is very high because of discrimination,
and many black trans women have no choice but to
turn to sex work because no one will give them
a job. Absolutely, yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge
any of the systemic reasons why black trans women might

(45:20):
be sex workers. And it's just like, well, that's just
what black trans women be, and right right, as if
when everyone was going to elementary school and one person
wanted to be a police officer and the other person
wanted to be yea, yeah, no, no, no, little kid
is in it. And when people want to know about intersectionality,

(45:41):
black trans women are might go to example because it
is the intersection of being a person of color and
being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think
that a lot of people, especially people who push this
uh personal responsibility narrative as if it's a false dichotomy.

(46:06):
It's an either or you're either taking personal responsibility for
your situation or you're blaming external factors, as if external
factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for
for your current situation, whatever that situation. Maybe, But yes,
I think what most minority groups need above anything else

(46:29):
in film representation is to be humanized, and I think
that Tangerine did do a good job of that. Yeah,
I'm also curious of UM going off of Tangerine a
little bit, what would you like to see more of
in terms of representation. What is UM something that you

(46:52):
would like to see more of that that isn't quite
I don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet
as far as black trans women, or just in general,
as far as like Okay, so, one of my favorite
sci fi books, and one of the stories that I
point to as one of the best representation of a
trans person is a book called The Fifth Season by N. K.

(47:18):
J Emison, And there's a trans character in there who
you don't find out is trans until two thirds of
the way through the book. But until then, mostly what
you know about her is that she's this sort of
terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and

(47:42):
she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the
technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this
thing in it, we could do this thing. And she
comes from a well to do family, but she is
pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because
she was supposed to be the man of the house
who was supposed to marry you. Well, and she's like, well,

(48:02):
I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't
be what you need me to be. And so I
really liked a story where a trans person her transness
is not her defining trait, but at the same time,
it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. So when you're saying, like,

(48:23):
what would I like to see more of, I would
like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness
without it being the defining trait for sure. Yeah, that's
a balance that it seems like Hollywood, at least, even
though slow and slight progress is being made in terms
of trans representation in Hollywood, it seems like still so

(48:45):
many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever
are still very much contingent on well, this is a
trans person and that's the thing we know about them. Yes,
that there was a controversy about a video game. I
believe it was one of the Boulder's Gate or Ice
wind Dale Games, and um, there was a trans character

(49:07):
and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans
person disclosed their transness, their trans status. They mentioned it
in like the opening sentence of meeting the character, the
main character, So it would be the equivalent of going
up to someone it's like, Hi, Caitlin, nice to meet you.

(49:30):
I'm trans, so anyway, um and so yes, yes, and
so they were like, you know, yes, there is something
to be said for It's it's evolving, is the point
that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters
and games now that aren't so in your face, but

(49:51):
but it's it's like, um, do you remember Atari, Remember
how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation five
it is coming out and it looks damn near like
real people. Right. I think dialogues we have a sort
of the same progression. I like this metaphor. Yeah, it's
like this is this is good ship? Uh yeah. I

(50:14):
think that they're still figuring out. And me being having
Gothic tendencies, I don't usually lean toward optimism, but I
think that I think that they're they're working it out. Yeah,
And that's a lot of what that that documentary Disclosure
is about this sort of slow evolution of trans representation

(50:37):
in media, and how for decades and decades it was
all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really
harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals
as well as culture at large, and how it's really
only been in the past like maybe five years, that

(51:02):
there's been any kind of headway made in terms of
progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people
in popular media. I think that once the Internet came out,
Once we had the Internet, it was a rap because
knowledge is the bane of ignorance, and now with the Internet,

(51:27):
we can just know things at such a rapid pace.
A lot of people can know a thing very quickly,
and so I don't really think that there would be
a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate, or Black
Lives Matter or trans issues without the information age that
we now live in totally and we would, I mean

(51:50):
we What we were talking about in the episode is
it's it seems like Tangerine is a good step in
the right direction, But I hope in a couple of
years we're at a point where it's like a sci
fi story with a trans protagonist, that would be fucking incredible.
And just like you were saying, just you know, centering
the story on a trans character in a way that

(52:12):
isn't like and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no,
we're in a sci fi world with a trans character, right. Absolutely,
the normalization is still something we need to normalize. If
that makes any sense. Yes, it really makes you think.

(52:36):
I mean, it's it's a process, but it's something we'll
just have to keep working on. Because I remember watching
a documentary on the representation of black people on the
screen back when they were black and white movies, and
there was a time when if a black person was

(52:56):
on the screen for a couple of seconds, black families
would call out to everyone in the house and say,
look a black person on TV. And they would all
run to the TV to watch the black person on TV.
And this was before say Living Single or The Cosby
Show or What's Happening or Family Matters, and so yeah,

(53:20):
I think most groups, probably when it comes to representation,
uh go through this process as we talk about on
the show. Often representation will kind of come in waves
or there will be stages to it where First of all,
any marginalized group will be more or less just erased,

(53:41):
pretend that they don't exist in media. Then there will
be an acknowledgment of their existence and an inclusion of
it on screen, but that that representation will be horrifying, racist, transphobic,
you know all yeah, just like really damaging. And then
when we when you know, enough people realize that that's

(54:03):
not good, then there will be more progress to something.
And then and then that's what injurin even is like
that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like, Okay,
we're going to center this story on black trans women
in an authentic way. The director is still some random
white guy who went to n y U. But you know,

(54:24):
it's like the story is still not like given to
the people who need to be telling it. So it's
like a step like inching inching, inching forward. Yeah, a
lot of people don't know that the writers for Good
Times were all white, Oh wow, yeah to begin with.
And so yeah, yeah, that is definitely a process that

(54:47):
it was the source of some tension between the actors
and the writers sometimes, I'd imagine, so yeah, but yeah,
it is, it is part of the the evolution something
that I think most of us believe in. Yes, yes,
but yes, but um but yeah, I do think it is.

(55:10):
It is one of the things that is part of
a normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation,
and then small stepping stones, and then someday, hopefully very soon,
we have just no one could take any issues with
the representation that we see because it's at a place
where it's positive and good and yeah, a sci fi

(55:34):
expanded universe, right and that and that will come with
trans people being the ones to tell their own stories.
Absolutely absolutely. I look forward to the day when when
the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche,
right and yeah, and not because she's like a weird

(55:56):
trophy murderer. Yeah. M hm um. Do you have any
other thoughts, any other things you'd like to share in
terms of Tangerine specifically or representation in general. One thing
that I thought was particularly poignant about Tangerine, and I

(56:16):
think this is true of many minority groups, but I
think trans women and trans women of color in particular
is so. Towards the very end, she found out that
her best friend cheated with her boyfriend, and she was like,

(56:37):
too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry,
and she's trying to walk away, and then she's a
victim of this hate crime. And then Alexandra takes her
to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her
her wig, which is wow, which is a major gestre

(57:00):
And one thing I thought was very poignant was about
how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because
they have to because the at the end of the day,
the rest of the world is against marginalized people. And

(57:21):
um I thought that it ended on a note that
expressed the value of sticking together and being there for
each other. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking
the time to chat with us. Thank you so much
for having me. It was so much fun. Give us
your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you?

(57:43):
And oh sure on Instagram I'm Chaotic Violet. You get
to see all my weird Renaissance Fair costumes. And on
Twitter I'm Violet Silver. And this Monday, I'm going to
be on the butter Boy comedy Zip show. Yeah with

(58:05):
a partner punches. Yeah, that is where you can find
oh Violent Gray on YouTube and yeah, that's it. Incredible, amazing,
Thank you so much, so much for joining us, Thank
you for having me. Wonderful. Yeah, let's take a quick
break and then we'll be back for more. Um, we're back,

(58:32):
We're back. And another thing that I love how this
movie like chose the line of you so often see
like characters defined by their own trauma. Like, I think
that that's a lot of like when sis hat white
guys are writing outside of their own experience, and when
like a lot of like when any writer is writing

(58:52):
outside of their own experience, I feel like it is
a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone
by their trauma. And I think this movie, for the
most part, toes the line really well of portraying that,
like there are very very real struggles that these characters
are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put
in jail it seems like for not a good reason. Um,

(59:15):
And and the kind of looming presence of the cops
that never fully explodes, but it's always there, like you
you see the unfair ship that they have to deal with,
but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that
defines them. What defines the story is how you know,

(59:35):
it is primarily like Alexandra and Cindy's friendship, which is
so like fun to see and that that's a whole
journey as well. And yeah, it's also I mean, the
characters themselves, many of them are not I guess, for
lack of a better term, woke. Like there's there's slurs

(01:00:01):
that I know, there's you know, there's reductive and offensive
name calling that gets thrown around. There's I mean, a
large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent
toward another woman and not holding Chester accountable enough perhaps
for cheating and really and targeting the other woman, you know,
which is a thing that always you know, dings are

(01:00:23):
little bill. But at the same time, like I I
give all of that a past just because again that
that these characters feel. So I'm like, yes, that would
probably happen. And of course this Dina is such an Dina,
I mean, and she she has her own like sub
story as well, but like when you meet Dinah, she's

(01:00:44):
such an antagonistic asshole, like you know it it doesn't
necessarily justify the violence against her. But I also it's like,
I don't know that Cindy is already upset. Uh Dina
does not approach the situation in a way that does
remotely like cool or calm or anything, and so I

(01:01:04):
feel like it's justified in story of like, you know,
particularly when you first meet her, before you get those
like more tender moments and you get more context for her,
You're like, oh, I get why Cindy is like pissed
at at at this lady. But also as as shitty
as all the men are in the movie The Men,

(01:01:25):
you never really get the feeling that any of the
women are actually threatened by them, though in real life
that might not be the case. Um in the film,
you don't. You don't get that impression, right, that's true,
I guess. Yeah, with Alexandra's um client early on, where
he only has forty bucks and he's like trying to

(01:01:47):
short change her and like she's she has none of it,
and it ends up like if the situation flares up,
but eventually it's fine and she has control of the situation.
She gets her forty bucks, right at least, I forget.
I don't think she ever does she not because the

(01:02:08):
cops in fear. Yeah, but then she she does meet
up with Resumek, who gives her money, but resume is
also um, it's complicated. Yeah, but that's I mean right.
And then also, like I wanted to mention that even
though Cindy is literally dragging Dina by her hair and

(01:02:29):
being violent towards her and all this stuff, I can't
speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she,
as a black trans woman, would feel very betrayed by
Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And
I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it, Like I'm not
necessarily pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, I am.

(01:02:54):
I totally was, Yeah, if anyone's going to do it, it
it should be her, right, right. It feels like it's
not it's not it's not really abusive. Yeah, She's just
she was betrayed and they were having fun. It just
looks it looks like it looks good. They smoked myth together.
It's fine. It is. It's like different rules. It's so

(01:03:17):
because it's like not not to excuse a kidnapping, but
it seems like a pretty light kidnapping because because by
the time they're on the bus, like even Dinah is
kind of like joking about it. She's like, oh, can
I pick up my hair tie, is that okay, I'm
still your captive, But like, can I put my hair back?
And Sandy's like, yeah, fine whatever, and it's like, okay,

(01:03:39):
this is a very friendly kidnapping. They go to a
show together, they you know, it's um yeah. When they
went to the bar and the door guy said she's
she's only got one shoe, she said she's from the hills,
She's a hillbilly, and the door guys just like sure, fine, whatever, great. Yeah.

(01:04:01):
I mean, I keep having to remind myself that, like,
these are people whose survival instinct and is just like
survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs
to be because of my privilege, Like I don't need
to be out on the streets where the risk of
danger and violence against me is much greater. So I

(01:04:24):
have to remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another
woman out onto the street by her hair, like I
am not put in danger every day. Also that the
stakes are a little higher when you consider that going
back to jail for either of these women most likely

(01:04:44):
means being put in a jail with men, right, very true,
I think that. Yeah, And and the fact that that
that even though they're not credited as writing it, the
fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from
their own experiences. You know, they're presenting true experiences and

(01:05:06):
they're presenting it in a way that is very fun
to watch. And I mean, yeah, that's why the movie
is good, Like it's it's because of them and their
performances and their input and there lived experiences that get
adapted to the screen. Like yeah, that's why this movie
was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if
we had just let Sean and Chris like, yeah, guess

(01:05:30):
their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah
would be, they would have gotten it so wrong, like
it would have been recoiem for a Dream with a
song exactly. It would have just and and so yeah
everything and this movie that it just that you're just like, oh,

(01:05:52):
I don't but it's like it's they're they're telling their
own story in an authentic way and it's based on
true experiences, and it's just like okay that that it
is what it is like they're they're telling their story.
M hmm. Now it was a good time to cut
to our next segment with another special guest. She is
a comedian, a writer for The Portland's Mercury. She's an

(01:06:16):
associate producer of the Portlands Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dhalia Bell. Welcome,
thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for
having me. Of course, of course, so we just wanted
to hear your thoughts on the representation of black trans

(01:06:37):
women in the movie Tangerine specifically, and then if you
had any other thoughts on trans representation, black trans representation,
the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah.
So um, to be entirely honest, I did have to
go back and watch the movie about two nights ago,

(01:06:59):
and yeah, it did not wrote me. Well, I will
say that, And I really had to do some personal
soul searching because you know, initially I'm like, am I
so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability

(01:07:20):
that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans
women as sex workers? And I thought about that and no,
I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends
are full service sex workers. So I'm like, no, that's

(01:07:41):
not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use, I
would say, No, I do understand where drug use does
play a role in both trans culture and the broader
queer culture. Um simply you know, being stuck in situations
where we're trying to find ourselves, and in many cases

(01:08:03):
I've been a pro drug advocate. However, the representation I
feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar
troops that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women
are guilty of. For example, the image of so First

(01:08:26):
I do want to come in the movie for casting
what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women,
as opposed to even a program I love like Pose,
where you have the obviously over glamorized methods that people
want to see, but all the same, I feel it's

(01:08:48):
a very messy image of trans sex workers. It kind
of paints us as buffoons, sort of the old step
and fetch it. Addition, then the trope of you know,
fighting over the affection of some ne'er do well sis
male you know, yeah, exactly, like why is that always

(01:09:14):
our ultimate prize? You know, like surely there's nothing else
that trans women could possibly want than some random CIS losers.
And that is putting it nicely, honestly, Like chester Chester sucks. Yeah,

(01:09:34):
he's garbage. I mean, I I I speak only for myself,
but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of
especially contemporary trans women, when I say many of us
do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles

(01:09:57):
or ways of being or identities, because our experiences with
six men are so negative and at a certain point,
you feel like, is this worth my time? Is this
something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never
really raised in any depiction of trans women that I

(01:10:18):
have ever seen. There's always this element of us longing
for the affection of this class. I I don't know why. Yeah,
I totally see your point. The first I've seen this
movie a few times now, Um, I love it. I
think it's such a long romp, And of course I'm

(01:10:41):
coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming
at it with blind spots, with our backgrounds. So I
hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of
buffoonery that is arguably displayed. I always sort of interpreted
that is, Oh, but they're fun, and they're they're just
you know, they're goofy, and we're seeing like rather than

(01:11:05):
a tragic story, which is how many transnarratives play out.
We're seeing a fun a fun romp. So that was
like always my kind of like, you know, just interpretation
of that. But I totally see your point. And I
had to look at that, you know, numerous times, because
is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know,

(01:11:31):
slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would
be very problematic as well. Um, but I think for me,
it's a matter of looking at that intersection of black
heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation,
and when you really look at the then diagram of that,

(01:11:54):
I think there are some issues raised. You know, we
were we've been talking a lot about how, I mean,
the fact that the movie is written and directed by
sis white guys as well. Um, yeah, likely you know
if factors into a lot of what's going on within
the movie that maybe doesn't match up quite well, and

(01:12:15):
how to lead actresses in this movie. We're not credited
as writers even though they had a huge influence on
what happened in the story, and then ultimately all the
credit going back to you know, the the tissue grad
um is exhausting So that was the first time you
had seen it? Is that right? Is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?

(01:12:38):
And it was interesting. Is My partner is also non
binary trans their gender fluid though, but it was their
second or third time saying it. And they're more a
fan of like queer cinema. So we've been they've been

(01:13:00):
like taking me on this tour of all the queer
classics and you know, kind of realizing some holes and
blind spots and a lot of the films that a
lot of us felt were formative, you know, just because

(01:13:20):
at that time the people that were in the writing
room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the
people in the writing rooms who are part of the
community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative
that makes That makes a ton of sense. We hadn't
even come at it from that angle. That makes a
ton of sense. Um, Is there any I mean not

(01:13:42):
to we don't want to put you on the spot,
but what would you like to see more from in
terms of trans representation in in film in general and
black trans representation. Yeah, I guess what I would really
like to see would be I guess the happy medium,
you know, the happy medium, even if we're we're going

(01:14:04):
to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I
I get why that trope is still useful. Um, but
even if we're going to do that, I would like
it to be maybe a happy medium between say Tangerine
and Pose, where you have these realistic, average looking, perhaps

(01:14:25):
quote unquote nonpassable trans sex workers who are empowered, not
necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or
you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but
actually flourishing, thriving. Maybe a montage sort of show where

(01:14:48):
maybe you have the U trans call girl and then
you of the trans businesswoman and you know, the trans
whatever this dude does, he's a but you know, just
allow us to be human being and not just the

(01:15:09):
sort of trout either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity
or sexualization things of that sort. Absolutely. Yeah, And as
we've been discussing, you know, representation is often unless it's
representation of like assist white wealthy men who there's an

(01:15:34):
abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talked
about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It
goes from erasure to negative representation, two steps in the
right direction to positive representation, and it feels like we're
still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase

(01:15:57):
in terms of trans representation in film and t and
Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the
right direction, but maybe not what we want to see ideally,
especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit
for writing the script and things like that are white
sis men telling the story of black trans women. Yeah,

(01:16:19):
I don't know, would you would you agree with that
assessment that, you know, Tangerine's a step in the right direction.
I think it will definitely be included in the cannon
long term. You know, I think Tyler Perry still has
his place within black cinema. That doesn't mean I'm going
to necessarily watch a Tyler Perry movie on purpose. Um,

(01:16:41):
media isn't your favorite? Yeah, you have to spring Tyler
Perry on someone get to walk in the room and
it's already been on for forty five minutes and you're like,
all right, it's too late. Um. Any other any other

(01:17:04):
thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep
most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep
you friends well. Thank you so much for joining us.
This has been so wonderful. Um, give us your your plugs.
Where can people follow you online? Anything you'd like to plug?
Oh yeah, well I'm gonna behave um. So I think

(01:17:27):
one of the more fun places to follow me is
on Instagram at mixed at Dahlia Bell, Mix thing an
x dot Dahlia Bell. You could also follow me on
Facebook at Dahlia dalis Bell or mix Dahlia Bell when
it is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram.

(01:17:48):
This is way too long of an exploration us. Keep
keep going. We want to keep me want to follow
you everywhere. Okay, if you follow my personal Facebook page,
it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that
I experienced every morning around two am, of course. But

(01:18:10):
my instagram are really cute pictures of me, so that
that's really where you should get. What a great balance though,
of depending on the vibes that you're seeking, there's always
there's a lot of options, there's always thank you, Thank
you so much again, Thank you you were wonderful. Have

(01:18:31):
a good day. Yeah, thanks again, Dahlia And now we're
back with Kai Choyce. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings, feelings. Yeah,
I talk to us about your feelings. Kind So I
just think everyone should should know that. Um, if you
got to go to donut time, you're very lucky. It was.

(01:18:53):
They actually have really good donuts there. But it later
became a tray host tacos, and then it became a
tray host donuts, and now it might be nothing. Sue,
I don't know. I don't think it's doing very well.
I could be wrong, but I just I don't see
people there ever. I haven't either. I know, I passed

(01:19:13):
there a couple of days ago. No aim that we
were going to watch this movie. I was like, goddamn,
seven years. Seven years makes all the difference. I feel
like a lot of a lot of stories that portray
sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency
from the characters and to kind of denigrade the experience.

(01:19:36):
And you don't see that happening here. In every situation,
the women seem to be very in control of the situation,
regardless of whether or not that is always the case
in real life with these characters. Like even with with Resumek,
you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women, and
the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up.

(01:19:58):
It ends up, you know, getting this ship kicked out,
which is sure karma baby, uh yeah. And and and
that the story. I mean, the story covers a lot
of ground, but every character gets a full arc, And
the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between
Cindy and Alexandra. And like, I just it's really fun

(01:20:22):
to see, especially like a female friendship that you see
have ups and downs and it's not just like a
perfectly written like we're best friend, we always get along,
everything's great, la la la. It's like they disagree with
each other every other second, but there is such a
clear bond. Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry um

(01:20:46):
as performers that it just like it just holds the
movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot
picture two different performers in this movie like they make
the movie. I mean they were like good friends in
real life too, yes, before they were cast yep. Yeah.
I feel like the the iPhones got more more airtime

(01:21:06):
than they needed to in this Like people talked about
the iPhones more than they talked about myan Kiki is
we gotta we gotta turn that around. Another thing kind
of piggyback on um, what you were saying just a
moment ago, Kai is the way sex work is often
portrayed in movies and media. Another thing will do I

(01:21:29):
think it's like a plot device is treated as like
a plot device that a character needs to overcome, right that, Um,
you know, a life that the characters are trying desperately
to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but
that isn't really a component of this movie, at least
not on the day that we see these characters. But
then another thing is, like I think that sex workers

(01:21:50):
will often be characterized in such a way that they
are shown as having like no moral compass almost or
that they wouldn't care sex means nothing to them, or
they don't they can't form real human relationships, so they
would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or you know,
anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie

(01:22:13):
is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on.
Just yeah, another thing that humanizes these characters. And this
movie also does a thing that's kind of subtle, but
every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker
characters tell a story like from their childhood. Like there's
one little anecdote where Alexandra is like, Oh, I had

(01:22:35):
a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub,
and then I think maybe she's like the Madame of
the party room. But she says something like, yeah, me
and my sister would always like I would. Is that
what it says? I'm her LinkedIn like like it. Yeah,

(01:22:59):
I don't know exactly what the best terminology is, but
I love the embellish credits. Fancy she um. She says
something like, yeah, me, my sister would go to these
dances when we were kids, and we're supposed to bring
a boy, but I could never find boys. What I
would take. I had to go dance with my sister
and it was just like stories of them like and
it's like, yes, like sex workers used to be children.

(01:23:20):
They have interiority, they have feelings, they have jealousy, they
have like the whole range of emotions. That's a right,
that's the trip. They say, if you're ever kidnapped by
a serial killer, you should tell them a story involving
your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself
to a complete stranger, because being a kid supposedly it

(01:23:44):
works much better than screaming let me go. So in
this kid, the movie is the kidnapped and we are
the serial killers. It's it's true. That's I feel like
a common misstep in movies in general, as just um,
when you're trying to subvert a narrative. The message is

(01:24:08):
more like I'm not like the other girls, I'm like this.
But what this movie does is just say these are
these characters. They're like this, They're the movie is not
comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is
a night in the life of these characters, like take
it or leave it, and it seems like everyone wanted
to take it. My cat is, be honest, someone's cat.

(01:24:31):
She's so cute. Awflee. I wanted to really quickly touch
on Resmique and his family. Resmik is not the central
character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to
um just bring up because he is. He is an
Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a

(01:24:53):
large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see
them represented. And I did a little out of research
on this because I mean, you do get this movie
does such a great job of giving every character like
an interior life. And so for Resmique, he's dealing with
his mother in law. You know, he's he's perhaps misrepresenting

(01:25:16):
how he spends his time to his family. We're not
exactly sure, um, but we we see that he has
a home life. We see that he has his own
interior struggles, and that is not something that is usually
lent to an Armenian character, because Armenian characters. UM. I
did a little research just to kind of confirm. It

(01:25:37):
was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've
seen on in pop culture really at all, And representation
for Armenian people Kardashian's aside is extremely low. Most of
the examples you'll find are on TV UM, and they're
usually characterized rather violently. UM. You'll see Armenian characters often

(01:25:59):
pop up on like shows like The Sopranos, as like
mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters.
When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a
very particular way. And so you know, again Rasmik and
his family are not the center of the movie. But
I do think it's like many things this movie does,

(01:26:20):
it is a step in the right direction, because I mean,
in in movies about l A in general, you are
seeing one zip code in a gigantic city, like you're
seeing Beverly Hills, usually the Class Warfare zip code, and
it is a gigantic and many parts of it are

(01:26:40):
are wonderful and cool, um, but you don't get to
see most of those parts. And so I thought it
was really nice to see an Armenian family represented, and
I sincerely hope that um, that continues to happen moving
forward and we get to see all sorts of Armenian characters.
I would have loved to see more of Rasm's wife. Um,

(01:27:00):
his wife, No, she does, she does have a name,
her name is Eva, but I would have loved to
see more of her. And like, so, yeah, that's a
yet another thing that this movie does that most movies
about Los Angeles do not. I agree, and UH to
our Armenian listeners, UM, if you have any other other

(01:27:22):
examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of
Armenian people, let us know, because we'd like to check
those out and refer us to UH works and characters
that that are that are worth covering. We're always listening.
But yeah, there there have been some pieces written in
the past several years about how extremely limited there's one

(01:27:46):
character on the Sopranos, there's a series of characters on
the Shield. Okay, there's a character on Weeds, and then
there's the Kardashians. End of list. Um, so we do
need more Armenian representation. Yes, Um, does Tangerine pass the

(01:28:09):
Bechdel test for sure? Lots lots and lots between a
bunch of difference between all sorts of pairings of characters.
And again, the main like, like we've said, the relationship
that's really at the core of this movie is the
friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And they talk all the

(01:28:30):
time about I'm sure they're talking about Chester sometimes, but
other times they're talking about fish, they're talking about Dinah,
there's talking about like Alexander's performance and singing and you know,
all all kinds of stuff. Dina and Cindy talk at
length as well. Uh. There is conversation between Resumeque's um

(01:28:52):
wife and her mother that is usually concerning him, but
there are a few line exchanges that don't and they
it can earn their daughter. And there's a lot of
This movie passes a whole bunch for sure. All that
to say, Yeah, also another rare example of a movie
that passes the Vito Russo test passes then a test

(01:29:14):
the Vito Russo test um. It basically examines if there
are any queer characters in the movie at all, and
if removing them would impact the plot at all. Basically,
they have to be essential to the story and they
can't be They cannot only be identified by their queerness.
They have to have like other characteristics and interiority. So

(01:29:37):
this movie very handily passes that test. Like I said,
the DuVernay test um, kind of all of them, it
really hits all the marks as far as our nipple
scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its
representation of women. And also part of me wants to
kind of retool our nipple scale a bit, I know,

(01:30:00):
but I think it would behoove us to kind of
just reword it or like read to a little bit
to it being more about like, how does this movie
fair from an intersectional feminist point of view? So either way,
looking at it from either version of our nipple scale. Um,
it gets pretty top marks. I think I'm going to

(01:30:21):
give a bit of four point five. The fact that
it is a what I think is a good step
in the right direction of trans representation, black trans representation specifically. Also,
we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro Latina,
which is another representation we often don't get in media
in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character

(01:30:44):
as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot
of things very well, as we've discussed the humanization of
sex workers and sex work and the focus on the
friendship between Cindy and Alexandra, and um, the fact that
a story, again a story about black trans sex workers

(01:31:05):
is fodder for like tragedy porn, and that's not what
this movie was at all. It was a funny genres
in one. Yeah. I I loved all those things. I
love this movie. I'm gonna watch it every Christmas and
this is the Christmas movie, right. Yeah, So where it

(01:31:25):
gets taken off for me is again this idea of, well,
the only way we're going to be allowed to tell,
like learn about trans people or hear their stories is
through the lens of sis white men at this moment
in history. You know, this should have been a movie
made by trans filmmakers. So um step step um. So

(01:31:49):
yeah four point five and I will give I'll split
my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Yeah, I was going
to go, I think a four play to five on
this movie. I I feel weird marking it much higher,
because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going

(01:32:13):
for it in terms of representation, I do still feel
like I always get a bit of like a when
you look up the director and you find out, okay,
this is and um. Something that bugs me that we
we discussed a little bit as well, is that the
director goes on to leverage the success of this movie

(01:32:34):
into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does
not involve any of the cast from Tangerine, and we
haven't seen um really many actors from this movie since,
even in that same director's work. And I do feel like,
particularly if you are an n y U guy who

(01:32:56):
and I'm not saying that you know he didn't do
a great job. I think he did, but I do
feel like you you you cannot in good faith use
to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own
career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like
that is just you can't. You can't, you can't. Um.

(01:33:17):
Other than that, I do um agree with everything you said, Caitlin.
I love the representation of black trans women. I love
the friendship. I love that it's a romp. Uh just
there's it's so so, so so funny. Um and I
credit you know of it to the lead actresses. They're

(01:33:39):
so so good. And and also you know, you get
a representation of just a lot of Los Angeles that
you normally wouldn't. You have the picture of an Armenian
immigrant family, you have their you know, sex worker representation.
This movie has got everything. Uh so so yeah, I'll
go uh four point too fun five. I will give

(01:34:02):
two to Cindy, two to Alexandra, and one quarter two
Rasmics baby. Oh oh. I thought you could say resmics dog,
but that's probably I would have given it to the dog.
I mean that's just me different people. Yes, how about you?

(01:34:23):
I want to I want to say a four, and
I would say the only reason I'm not giving it
a five is because of the issues that you guys
brought up, but also because there was a little bit
of a Tarantino is um going on here where I
think that anytime you have a white characters using the
N word to display how terrible of a person they are,

(01:34:45):
it should at least there should be a black person
directing it or writing it or or something, because by
all appearances they got that pass from which was not necessary.
They were terrible enough as it. As it went right,
you could replace the N word with a monster energy
drink in the hand, and you know, we get the
same impression, and we get it. We get it. Yeah, well, Kai,

(01:35:10):
thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having
me this fun. Yeah, good to good to see you.
It's been a while. Um, Where can people follow your stuff?
Check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my
podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill.
It is a true crime comedy podcast and the focus

(01:35:31):
of each episode is a lady who is a murderer,
so we don't talk about any dudes who rape and
murder unless they're part of a couple, which it's only
happened a couple of times. You can also find me
on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's k A.
I c H O y C E and uh, I

(01:35:53):
mean that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days.
Maybe one day we'll be back to it, but otherwise
you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me
being highly inappropriate on social media. I really thoroughly enjoy
your social media presence, if I may say thank you.
Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter
and Instagram at bachtel Cast. We've got a Patreon ak Matreon.

(01:36:16):
It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus episodes,
plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes.
And um, you guys gotta start using protagonist. By the way,
Protagonia it in. You can have it. Thanks, thanks for
tuning in, See you next time. Hi,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle