The Hunger Games with Kelly Nugent & Lindsay Katai

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start
changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to
the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Torante is Jamie Lofton,

(00:21):
and we talk about the representation of women in movies. Yes,
it's our job. It's our job. We're making millions of
dollars doing this. There's some I play. Sometimes people get
the wrong idea of how much podcasters make, which is
zero dollars. It's wild Anyways, those our show at the
role of the portrayal of women in movies. We use

(00:43):
the Bechdel test as a starting off point. Becktel test
being a media metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes
called the Bechtel Wallace test UH that requires that a
scene in a piece of media have two meal identifying
characters with names that talk to each other about something

(01:04):
other than man. Sounds simple enough, but most things don't pass.
It sees Daisy Let's demo it shall we Hey, Jamie,
what kitle do you you feel that the odds may
ever be in your favorite Um, you should have would

(01:25):
say no, I feel like I would have. I mean,
I know this is true of all survivalist movies. Wh
I'm like, oh, I died forty five minutes ago. I
was like, oh, there's no fucking way. But I also
felt that way about uh many characters. And I won't
specify the gender so it passes the test. And conclusion
that passes the test, I'll how about a conversation that

(01:47):
won't pass the Bechdel test. I hate Josh Hotcherson's hair
in this movie fair fare um mine was going to
be Jamie. Did you know that the actor who plays
the game anchor in Hunger Games is neither Jim Cavizel
nor Milo Ventimiglia. I thought it was one or the

(02:08):
other of them. Turns out neither. It's vent Amelia. Shit,
we need to talk about men more. Uh No, we're
We're super excited to talk. We're talking about the Hunger
Games today. Higher games one. So Hunger Games stands slide
to our mentions asking why we didn't refer to Hunger Game.
How many were movies? Were? There are nine? Too many?

(02:29):
There don't ask us about the other three. I am
not prepared to answer this questions. So we're talking about
the first movie that came out in two thousand twelve today. Yes,
and here's to join us in our discussion. We've got
the hosts of teen Creeps podcasts. It's Kelly Nugent and
Lindsay Katie Hi. Hi here, sound of a cannon there

(02:54):
or hopefully not. I'm gonna kill all of you over.
Oh yeah, what if by the end of this there
can be only one Victor left? I wish I had
known that ahead of time. I don't think I would
have agreed to do the show. I volunteers tribute to
be killed first. They're like, that's not what you're like.

(03:16):
I wanted to make it happen. Yeah, I want to
be the girl in the crowd that raises her hand
is like, please kill me. I'm ready to die. That's
a fun fan fick version. And then that's like galaxy
brain because if you're like Elizabeth Banks, step on my
neck and kill me and then she's like no, you're
gonna live, and you're like, oh no, and then you

(03:37):
live forever. Dystopian people are so easily confused, So for
the two of you. What is your history relationship with
this movie the franchise? Have you read the books? All
that kind of good stuff. So I did not read
the books or the movie or read the movie to

(04:02):
be and I did watch the book. I put it
on a chair and stared at it for hours. I
wasn't great. Um. I didn't do the movies or books
until like later, after they had been out for a while,
because I was very like and tie at the time.
I think I was just like, I only like adult fiction.

(04:24):
This was obviously before Lindsay and I started our podcast,
because all you guys read stuff for y audience. But
then I finally gave in and I like watched the
first movie and I was like, oh dang, I like this.
And then I went and found the books and read
the books. But I don't really remember the books. So
that's kind of where I'm read the books. First. They

(04:45):
were recommended to me by a friend who thought that
I would like them, and I did like them. I
liked them fine, and then I liked them fine, very diplomatic.
I truly don't have a terribly negative opinion about them
or like, I'm not super ampt about them either. You

(05:07):
know solid, I feel like that's a common room towards
this franchise. Respectable, Yes, Jamie, how about you? This is
one of the many franchises that I just completely slept on.
I don't know what I was doing when these books
were coming out. I don't know. I mean maybe I
was taking yet another foray into being a guy's gal

(05:30):
and just missed the entire thing. I just started seeing
movie three years ago when we started this podcast, so
I remember the books were popular, and I also felt like,
I'm like, oh, I'm too old for this, because I
feel like I was just like a teen and wanted
to be too old for something. Did you think that
they were similar to like Twilight? Kind of No, but

(05:51):
they can't. They were like the same era of right,
Like I think that Twilight might have been the last
y A fiction I read before I decided, like arbitrarily,
that I had aged out of it. But I don't know.
I think that maybe if I were a few years younger,
I would have read these books, but I didn't, and

(06:11):
then I don't. I just like had really no desire
to see the movie, even though I had a very
weird formative crush on Josh Hutcherson that I I no
longer stand by interesting, but he was in this movie
called Firehouse Dog, and I was there for Firehouse Dog
for some reason that's familiar, but I can't think what

(06:32):
it is. I couldn't tell you one thing that happens
in the movie Firehouse Dog. I was really there for
Josh Hutcherson and the rest of the people there were
like nine. Um, yeah, I have no history with this franchise,
is what I'm saying. What about you, cait I read
the books, I want to say, must have been like
twenty or maybe a little bit late. I think I

(06:54):
read them in preparation for the first movie coming out,
so that would have been probably a little bit sometime
in like twelve, I guess, I don't know in that
frame of time. And then I since then have seen
each of the movies in theaters. And that makes me
sound like I'm a big fan of this franchise, which
I again would not call myself. I just I just

(07:17):
tend to see most movies, especially ones that are big
and that you know people are going to talk about,
because you know, I like to be a part of
the conversation. Caitlin's addicted to the discourse. I sure am
so I love a cultural moment, but I think I've
only seen each movie once aside from the first one

(07:37):
to prep for the episode, And I remember thinking the
movies are better than the books in a rare case
of me thinking that because I feel like the movies
are just more streamlined story wise, especially the third one
gets really sloppy in the book, and I'm just like,
what is even happening? I heard that. I don't think
I actually read the third one, but I did hear

(07:59):
it. It It was very oppy, and the movie was better. Yes,
wait what happens? Well, yeah, she becomes like Catness becomes
a symbol for like the revolution of like them trying
to overthrow this totalitarian government. And then but like she's
very moody for a lot of the time and doesn't
really do much. You know what? This is a classic

(08:21):
Harry Potter book. What is it for? Five? Is it
the one where he gets really moody and like temper
in a teacake shop or something where I was I
remember getting to that part and being like, I don't
need any part of this, but I I don't think
I could be there for Katness being that moody. Yeah,
she is always that moody. She's a pretty moody She's

(08:43):
like mood zero percent personality. Interesting. She I do agree
that she does not have much of a personality, which
I don't like. I mean, and again, I haven't read
the books, and so I'm like, I don't know how
much of this is just Jennifer Lawrence. May I mean,
it's Jennifer Lawrence is weird. I feel like she's a
polarizing actor for many I always kind of like get

(09:08):
leary around conversations like that because I'm always because you know,
people are more critical of actresses one of actors, mediocre
actors flourish all the time. I don't love her performance
in this movie. I feel like she I don't know
if the character is written to be kind of like boring,
but I found Wortten to be boring. Unfortunately. Well, I
don't think she did a great job. I don't think

(09:29):
what's her face sat down and went, I'm going to
write a really boring character. Yeah, but that is what
ended up being on the page. Um. Yeah, her personality
is I'm hungry, Yeah, I'm scared. Oh no, what if
I gotten myself into this time? Like the part. I

(09:50):
definitely felt that feeling a lot, like right when Lenny
Kravitz is like thirty seconds and she's like, oh no, right,
I think this is this is high visibility for strong
female protagonists that are also boring as fuck. I will
say she's a little less boring than like the most

(10:10):
boring female protagonist, which is Bella Swan for sure, because
she at least like has opinions, which is like I
don't like that, and a skill like she has. She's
good at hunting and tracking, and she doesn't trip nearly
as much Swan. Yeah, yeah, she's not as clumsy, but
when she does trip, the stakes are high, that's true.
She falls down a freaking giant hill. Yeah, I was

(10:33):
like very high chat, but it's like right at the beginning,
so she falls for so long it felt like, what
is that movie that's supposed to be parodying uh Kung Pal?
Is that that like karate parody movie where there's like
there's a scene in that movie where a baby falls

(10:54):
down the same hill and it's clearly a puppet and
it falls for like five seconds and it's really funny,
or it's like Princess Briane, so Catness is just like,
oh yeah, it's with yeah, a strong character that I
was not emotionally compelled by even for a moment, except

(11:16):
for the stuff with your sister. But we'll get to that. Sure,
I'll do the recap and then we'll dive into the
discuss and everyone feel free to talk over her. So
she gets stuffing out. Yeah, I'll just talk about my day, okay.
So we open with some like text information about the
Hunger Games, which Jamie, as you pointed out, is in

(11:39):
Helvetica font. Oh my gosh, okay, wait at least just
not Papyrus it miss Well. I was so shocked. I
was telling Caitlin and Aristotle upstairs and Sophie as well
that I made I had to stop and make sure
I was watching the right movie. I'm like, oh, maybe
this is like some weird, like off brand version of

(12:02):
The Hunger Games, but like they had a seventy eight
million dollar budget, and the movie opens with six sides
of Helvetica literally the same font. I was, let's not
worry about why. But I was looking for a video
of someone playing through the fire and flames on expert
mode on Story and I clicked on it and it

(12:22):
was like I think I got ric rolled because then
it was like a picture of a cat and then
like font over. I was like, thank you for coming
to my channel. But it was that fun, like that
is what's happening on Hunger Games. It's a thirteen year
old please like and subscribe slide. At the beginning, I
was shaken to my I feel like that is the
most emotion I felt in the entire movie was how

(12:45):
viscerally I responded to the hell vtic upon at the
beginning and the end, because the movie ends on it
and it fades out and says like directed by Gary Rouse,
and you're like the heal veticas bat Like it's so jarring,
true dystopia. Yeah, like this is not making commentary, like
how Vetical will sort of outlive us all. The last

(13:07):
I'll say about the font is like, if you've got
seventy eight million dollars, at least use a seraph like ridiculous,
kind of fair, unreal anyways, so I hear you. So
the content of the we learned that there are twelve

(13:28):
districts of pan Am, which sounds like an airline and
but it's it's it's the country that used to be
the United States of America, and each district will offer
up a male and female between the ages of eighteen,
twelve and eighteen at a lottery selection ceremony type thing
called the Reaping, and the children who are selected, also

(13:50):
called the Tributes, are sent to the capital and then
transferred to an arena where they will fight to the
death in what it's called the Hunger Game. And they're like,
what if The Bachelor plus Survivor plus Apocalypse plus A
is so so Elizabeth Banks performance This franchise answers that
because the Hunger Games are televised as a like reality

(14:14):
TV show for everyone to see, and everyone fights to
the death until a single victor remains. And I don't
mean a person named victor, of course, because that would
not pass the higher games, but will he be the victor?
That'd be a great Like I kept trying to I

(14:35):
just got into the Bachelorette, which is my shame, but
I keep trying to. I kept trying to, like picture
the contestants doing like talking heads, because that's the only
element of reality TV they shared for this. It would
be so fun if Josh Hudgerson were like, yeah, I'm
kind of starting to catch fields for or if he's
like if he's like um, like, so we see him,

(14:56):
you know he's decided with the bad guys and he's like,
so I might have been on the wrong side of history. Okay,
So we meet Catness Eberdeen. That's Jennifer Lawrence's character. She
is from District twelve, which is like a poor coal
miner part of the of pan Am, and Catiness is

(15:18):
a skilled archer. She hunts for food for her and
her family, which is her mother and sister Prim, who
she loves dearly and who is stressed out about this
upcoming reaping. Can I can I just say Prim is fine,
but like, I just don't see Like from what I

(15:39):
saw Prim, I would not have volunteered distribute for her.
I would just let her. But I think you need
to keep in mind that the person who was like
I couldn't possibly let her go with Catiness, who's possibly
even more of a vacuum of personality. True, like Prim
showed emotion, so she had that going for her, but

(16:01):
that little I thought that the actress who played Prim
did a great job with being given nut too much.
Also the name, I'm wondering, like if Suzanne Collins had like,
if she's released any like insight into her naming conventions,
because naming a little girl prim seems weirdly pointed and

(16:21):
prim Rose it's a shortcut to get to Prim though
for sure. Yea. Anyways, so her best friend is Gail.
That's Liam Hemsworth's characters. Fleming's kidding, I get it, um
and the two of them talked about how fucked up

(16:42):
the Hunger Games are and how they should just leave,
and then Catness and Prim go to the reaping and
Effie Trinkett is there. That's Elizabeth Banks character. Oh okay,
really quick, what Elizabeth? I possibly? I like Elizabeth Bank.
I do not like her in this part at all.

(17:02):
I think she's doing a terrible Helen A. Bottom Carter impression.
How many times did Helen and bottom Carter turn this
part down? And then how many times did Parker Posey
turn it down after before they arrived at letting Elsa
Banks do a terrible impression of both of them. It
bothers me. I So I was I was fine on
her performance. I thought she was like a seven out

(17:24):
of ten performance wise. Really you mentioned Helena bottom Carter
and I was like, oh, that's what it is. She
simply wasn't available because Helena would have killed it. That's
like a role she's born to play. Yeah, that's her
in her film career. Yes, I needed somebody who can

(17:47):
actually play like out of it. Yeah, because her character
is not that forever Elsa thanks isn't isn't really a
character actor in that way, she was trying something. I
appreciated the f Ultimately, it did make me just wonder
what if Parker Posey had gotten she seems to be available.

(18:08):
She was doing Parker Posey's character from Josie and the Post.
That is exactly what she was doing. Those are the
things we see girls. Oh god, great movie anyway. Anyways,
So Effie Trinkett is from the Capital. She represents the
Hunger Games essentially, or like she represents District twelve, for

(18:32):
she is the District twelve Hunger Games like read being
like representative. She's by far the most dystopian looking of
everyone besides Stanley Tucci and Stanley Tucci are the only
ones delivering looks quite that dystopian. And then you've got
Guy Fieri beard, and then everyone else kind of looks normal.

(18:56):
Oh yeah, but except for like the non speaking extras
that will like occasionally everyone in the capital, but people
who is yeah speaking right anyway? Sky. So for we're
at the reaping for the girls, prim gets selected to
participate in the games, but Ketness can't bear to see

(19:18):
her little sister compete, so she volunteers as tribute and
an iconic scene and then it goes like this, I
vad I volatiers tribute and then like lots of shaky
camera which urgently scary. I actually I liked this part.
I thought that I was a little bit moved by it. Sure,

(19:39):
I like the parts with her and her family. I
wish there was more of that. And Peter Peter, speaking
of Peter gets selected for the boys, and that's Josh
Hutcherson's character. So Catness and Peter Hutcherson. I thought I
would have be ten Hutchinson. Did I say it? I

(20:02):
might have said, didn't know. I think you're right. I
think it is Hutcherson. I feel like Jamie would definitely
know actually had a sexual awakening as a former stand
it is Josh Hutcherson. And that is hound spelled in
firehouse dog. Okay, okay. So they go and meet their
mentor hay Mitch, which is Woody Harrelson and and his

(20:24):
four dollar wig feminist icono middle part most and least. Yeah,
I liked Woody Harrelson in this movie. The wig was wild.
I didn't see there's a lot of wigs in this
movie and this is it was like an anime causeplay wig.
I don't know what was happening, but it was very bad.

(20:45):
It was like PC could not keep drycause it was why, like,
just blow some wind on him. I don't understand why
it was constantly wet and PC it was so bad.
I like that They're like, he's an alcoholic, therefore he
has a dirty wig on all the time. This leap
of logic doesn't quite make sense, but sure a visual language. Well,
the costume designer is like, look, I know it's kind

(21:08):
of cliche, but I'm just going to go with a
cheap wig because he's an alcoholic. It's just like a
short cut of storytelling, like you know, like that the
caller is undone and the wigs wet. Every alcoholic I've
ever known has a soaking wet wig, and that's a
dead it's a dead giveaway that you need help. So
he's a previous like victor of the games, which is

(21:31):
why he's helping them, but he doesn't really have much
interest in helping him. The main thing that he tells
Catans is that she needs to be more likable so
that she'll get sponsors who will send her stuff during
the games survive, which at least is framed as a
bad thing because you don't want to hear that from
someone wearing a soaking wet wig like likable really, right?

(21:53):
I appreciate I appreciate that the movie went out of
its way to frame this is like, this is not
the right thing to be saying to this character. That's important.
So then they get to the Capitol and Catnist meets Sinna.
That's Lenny Kravitz hot, what a what an I didn't
I didn't know the cast of this movie outside of

(22:13):
Jennifer Lawrence and and the Hudge. I know that my like,
my best friend from high school, Lois listens to the
show and she went to Firehouse Dog with me and
she is losing her minder. I keep thinking it's like
fire House Dog. That's what I keep thinking too, because
of the emphasis of how you're saying, my fuse sorry,

(22:34):
I've been saying it for thirteen years since it was released.
I just can't step. I have it on DVD, the
only DVD I own anyway. I watched it every day.
I love it. I don't have a DVD player, but
if I ever get when I'm ready, Um there, what
were we even talking? Oh? I just had no idea
Lenny Kravitz was in this movie. And what a pleasant

(22:54):
surprise I know. Yeah. Something my boyfriend said was how
many steps did it take in the process to get
to casting Lenny Kravitz's first choice? No idea, but I
think he adds in this movie. I think casting Lenny
Kravitz a style icon as a dystopian stylist rules, and

(23:15):
that was real fun. Yeah. I like that too, and
I liked his relationship with Katness the same. He's one
of my favorite characters. Him and the Tooch and everyone
else touch don't really care anyways, A can and then
it's like whatever the rest of the baby. Um, so
he's her silas there's a tribute parade that he makes

(23:36):
her all fancy, and I mean, speaking of Firehouse Dog,
it's more like Firehouse were you freaking girl? When with
her fire? Yeah? I mean, I was like, this is
Josh the boy on Fire. You start calling her that weird?
So the girl Girl on Fire was that that that
has that had to have come out after this movie

(23:58):
came out, right, otherwise you're like a weird reference that
would have been really into. Josh Patterson isn't even on
the poster for a house dog. It's just a dog.
That's so it's really so embarrassing. He's the star of
the movie and he's not on the poster. That's funny.
It's just a dog in sunglasses. So there's the parade.

(24:21):
Stanley Tucci is Caesar Flickerman, but he's Stanley Tucci and
he's the commentator of all things Hunger Games. Um, we
meet the GameMaker, there's President's no, who's Donald's Sutherland? And
who expected you to say Stoke? Oh because because of

(24:41):
Star Wars. Um, So they're all there. And then the
tributes they train a little bit. The tributes from District
one and two were always like really really good because
they like go to like training camp and there it's
a whole thing. There's like a whole class discussion we
can have there. Um, and Peter is worried that he's
going to died because he sucks it everything except that

(25:02):
he's strong and he can throw heavy objects like John
Hafferson is not strong. How this movie are you trying?
He looks crazy. It is so weird that they're like
he's so strong. I'm like, stop gaslighting me. I'm looking
at And when she's like you should throw that big ball,
he like walks over to it. I was like, he
You're like his arm is going to fall up. He

(25:25):
don't show him throwing it, but like seen or Peter
tells his story about how like he's like, no, like
even my own mother knows that, like you're gonna win Catus.
And she goes, well, you're like really good at throwing flour.
She's like, I've seen you do it many times. It's

(25:46):
like a Baker's son superpower that he has. It's it's
two superpowers, both baking related. Yes, they're take decorating. And
does Susanne Collins understand bakeries? Has she ever met a
poor person? I have a lot of questions based on
her portrayal. And I love, I mean, I love short men,

(26:06):
and I love when short men are cast in leading roles.
End and it's like or shorter. I don't know his
exact hide. I think it's a round five seven if
I remember correctly from my Firehouse Dog days. Oh boy
short a k a girl tall, right, yes, And but
I like when when they don't Tom cruise it and
the movie is like, no, he's shorter than her and
we're not going to call attention to it. That said,

(26:28):
he visibly could not be that strong. I mean, he
has some arms, arms, muscle, but his little T shirt
was No. I wasn't going to support I was very
worried about the about the ball throwing. And you do
notice too that they never they show a lot of
cut twos, the like flashbacks of like him throwing a

(26:50):
piece of bread air. Honestly, I believe that Josh Hudgerson
would have gotten two into cross fit to get ready
for this movie. He kind of has the resting face
of someone who is two into cross He does and
CrossFit resting, but they never show him throwing those hundred
pound bags of flower around. Jen's shooting the arrows, what

(27:12):
throw the iron ball? So like at this we are
maybe to believe that at the same time Catness is
hunting that deer that Gail totally sucks up. He is
somewhere just like lifting backs, like in his version of
the movie. That's what's taking place a lot of theorious
at Alright, we meet Rue. She is a younger kid

(27:36):
from District eleven. I think Catness. She's impressing the judges
with how good she is with the bone arrow. She
gets a score of eleven because they're like rating all
the tributes, and she gets the highest score because she
throws an arrow at them. And every time cat Is
gets a great score, Peter is extremely emasculated and retally.

(28:00):
It's and that's why he's the romantic lead of the movie.
So it's the night before the Hunger Games and all
the tributes to a TV interview, and Peter during his
interview says that he is in love with someone who
came to the Games with him. I hate this, yes,
so much. We'll talk all about this. It's like when

(28:21):
the people on the Bachelorette say they're in love with
her in the first episode. I like, you just want attention.
I'm like, you're not falling stop or a few arts
because they've given you too much layer and not enough food. Yeah,
the Hunger Games of its own time, I mean we
know there was booze because Hayman is drinking a lot

(28:43):
of it, very demonst I mean, there's enough to dip
his wig in it. That's why. That's that's why from
always like liquor sweats, Yes, constants. You know, now it's
toime for the games. Let the game speak in both

(29:06):
of you. And right away, like half of the tributes
are killed. This is the part of the convenience where
everyone would have died. I was like I would as
they were standing around, I was like trying to put
myself in the position. I'm like, no, I think at
this point I would have been like, well, I had
a good run. It's always nice. Set like this will

(29:26):
be on my IMDb page and it might kind of
be like the crow and I had. Yeah. So Catne
survives and runs into the woods, and then she learns
that Peter is alive too and pretending to be an
ally to the District one and two people, and they
are using him to try to find Catanus because they

(29:49):
want to kill her. She continues to survive. She escapes
a fire. The bad guys find her, They chase her
up a tree, and then she drops a wasps nest
on them. Um, which her and her friend Ru had
been the one to like alert her to the presence

(30:09):
of the nest, so Ru is her her. Ally, they're
also LSD wasps Yes, which which like Stanley Tucci kind
of pops in sometimes like over the loud speaker like
a vice principal and just like gives you exposition. You like,
by the way, there's LSD in the wasp. But you're
like right, because he's the host of the reality show

(30:30):
that everyone's watches, like Home. He's Jeff Crisp sting it.
He's like live narrating what is happening during the challenge.
It's also kind of like he's doing the post show
talk show while it is still happenings like the Talking
Days Talking that's where that show got into name yeah,

(30:54):
talking about who died so horrible. Also, Toby Jones is
there with him, very like how do you underutilize Toby Jones.
He's like he doesn't speak, like he responds like two sentences.
Maybe he's like blah blah blah. Tracker Jackers or whatever
they're called. Toby Jones is on the left, looking like

(31:15):
a weird Mozart and he's like yeah, he literally is
just like you got that right. That's it sounds like
a good part. I would ship out of that part
like he got that right. I would be like moving
a lot, got your online. I would be really just
like I got like two seconds on camera. I'm gonna

(31:37):
make it work and I'm getting my SAG card for this.
You're gonna see it. Yeah, okay. So then kas finally
gets her hands on a bone arrow and she and
Ru have like formed this alliance and they destroy the
supplies that like all the bad guys from District one
and two are hoarding. But then Ru gets killed prize.

(31:59):
Then there this incites some riots in District twelve or sorry,
District eleven, and an announcement is then made that they
will crown two victors in the Hunger Games if they
originate from the same district. So then Catanis goes and
finds Peter, who has disguised himself as a rock. It
was so weird. What where did he get that stuff?

(32:22):
I don't know. It happened to be in his pack.
He had a cake decorating kit. That was the moment
that shook me, like the second most after Helvetica. Front
was like she found him disguised as a rock, and
she's like, you know what, I think I am in
love with him. You're like in the next scene she
kisses him. I was like, what this is? What? That

(32:45):
was part of the act. He wandered onto set of
nailed it and was just like, I've got all the
stuff I'm gonna paint my face and they were like, actually,
you did you look like? He didn't really look like
Tenda ten rock painting looks like they're their mirrors, and
it's like, how didn't you know if? Also he has

(33:06):
like an infectious cut on it. Also, I laughed out
loud when he's like, hello, you know your man's is
disguised as a rock and has a critical wound. He's unwell.
He's like, am I winning? He at that point like

(33:28):
he should have he should be dead, he should not
feel he's close. But she gets him to safety and
then they kiss. We'll talk all about this, uh, and
then everyone's rooting for them to make it so, and
then they're like, okay, we're the only team left with
just the two of us still alive from the same district.
We can win this together. And then at this point
there's only one other tribute left, which is kato colored hair. Yes,

(33:53):
oh yeah, he looks like a thumb guest. They fight him,
they kill him, and then just then there's another announcement
that says, just kidding, there can be only one winner.
So Peter is like, catn this killing me and she's
like no, let's both die. So they're about to eat
these poison berries and then the announcer comes back and

(34:14):
it's like, wait, wait, wait, just to stop, don't do that.
You both win. So they're announced to be the victors
of the Hungry Games. And then they go back to
the Capitol. They have like post show interviews and they
have to make her dress belly interesting and just like

(34:37):
you piss them off by like doing this whole double
victory thing. So now you have to pretend like you're
really in love with Peter because everyone's just gonna gobble
that up. They do that, and then that's the end
of the movie. We'll take a quick break and then
we'll come back to discuss and we're bad gods. All right,

(35:06):
Well we're a start. There's so much to to talk
about this. I feel like, okay, So this movie is
like often cited when people are talking about movies with
strong female protagonists because you do get to see, you know,
a young woman who has a lot of agency, she

(35:28):
has skills, the stakes are high. The series becomes about
her being like a symbol for the revolution. Like it's
a whole and it's a female lead action franchise, which
is cool indeed, But there are some things that I
wish wouldn't have happened. The romantic subplot and its entirety

(35:50):
by any chance, Yes, that's the big thing. Hey. For me,
I was like, and I wonder how much of this
was supposed to inspire or like dread because for me,
I was like, oh no, she's like being told that
she has to fake this relationship with this guy. I
don't like that. She kind of seemed to like him back, Yeah,

(36:13):
because what I would have liked was for her to
like not really know how much of it he's faking,
because he is more duplicitous than she thinks like he is.
She has seen that he knows how to play the game,
so I disagree. I don't think he is at all duplicitous.
I think he really going to the other side purely
to save her. No, not for that, I mean like

(36:34):
he knows how to play this game, so he is
faking being in love with her. I mean, maybe he
likes her, but I think because we see from the
next movies that he he like fully is in love
with her. I think it's a little bit of both.
I think it's so I don't know, yeah, but he's
like fully in love with her. But also I mean

(36:55):
I think you're right too, and that like you see
in that moment in the parade when they're on the chariot,
like he goes to surprise, not kiss, but grab her
hand and she pulls away and he's like, no, come on,
they'll love it. And then so she's like okay, but
then they hold hands and then people are like I
was a little confused about like the same debate of like,

(37:16):
because at first it does seem like I was assuming
that he was very calculated in the ways, especially because
of the whole like it felt like the first episode
of The Bachelor, where he goes on he doesn't tell
her that he likes her, he tells the entire world
in this very performative way, and I was like, that
seems calculated, Like that seems like some you know, something

(37:38):
that just to gain attention and good will, but then
they sort of try to spin it later as if
it were actually totally sincere and not calculated at all,
And I just I don't know, like I don't hate
that the TV show tries to push them together because
I feel like there's some commentary there of like the
way that's really like realistic. Yeah, like the way the

(38:00):
TV show treats Cat and is I think is meant
to be like commentary of like when she goes up
for her first interview, like Stanley Tucci make sure she
has to show off her outfit and like she has
to and when what he Harrelson advises her and what
to do, it's very like reality TV calculated. I'm like, Okay,
I'd like that works for me because there's commentary being

(38:21):
made and we believe at the time that she doesn't
care for this guy at all, so there's like some
interesting tension. But then I feel like they kind of
throw it away by it being like, no, they actually
do like each other, so because she initiates the kiss
when they're in the cave, right, so, but then even
then I was just like, is she doing this because
she knows there being on camera? I don't know which

(38:45):
would be smart. That would be interesting to my interpretation
based on the book and the movie together, because I
think what it comes down to is it not working
in the movie is casting. They have no chemistry, They
not in chemistry whatsoever, and neither of them have very
many shades to their performance either. So when he is

(39:08):
playing Sincere in love with Catanus, it reads exactly the
same as when you are supposed to kind of wonder
what his motives are because you were supposed to wonder
because she is wondering. But then as the book goes on,
it's like, no, he was a hundred percent since here.
It is shitty how he announces it, which is not
something I even thought about. Watching the movie last night,

(39:33):
I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, like and also I think
I think, deep down maybe he does love her, but
he might be like one of those guys that's like
doesn't understand to love someone truly is to love them
how they want to be loved, and rather he's just like,
this is how we express it, and like that's why
he announced it, because I think partially he's doing it

(39:54):
because he's like, oh, I feel love her, I should
just say it. And then like partially he's he knows
the only thing he's got is knowing how to play
the game, because he from the beginning they get in there,
she's like sulking, and he's like we should wave at them,
because like you've got to get people to like you.
That was like an interesting moment for me at least,
because you're just like, Okay, this is like h Like

(40:14):
I almost like I wish that they if if the
tension were constantly from like them doubting, like oh is
this not how do I actually feel about it? But
it's like I don't know yet it is partially a
performance thing. And then setting aside there like lack of chemistry.
If we just take it like the events of the

(40:34):
story at face value, what happens is that the more
the movie progresses, the more this romantic storyline gets entangled
into the main story, which is their survival, which I
feel is really unnecessary, Like they made a conscious choice
because there's like, all right, this is a y a book,
this is you know, a movie franchise for largely like

(40:56):
teen young adult audiences, So we've got a wedge this
not only a romantic storyline into here, but it's a
love triangle story because gayl otherwise care because in this
first movie, and I wonder if the book makes this

(41:17):
more clear or not. I can't totally remember, but Gail
and Catness are framed as being best friends, and there's
no reason to assume that they have anything besides a
platonic friendship apart from being very attractive, apart from both
being near each other and both hot time. But but
then when you when Gail is watching the Hunger Games

(41:38):
from his TV or wherever, at the projected at the
Hunger Um, he's seeing Catness and Peter Kiss on TV
and he's like visibly upset. So we're supposed to understand, like,
oh no, he's also in love with Catness because in

(41:58):
a Why novel and movie, sure a woman gets to
be the main character sometimes, but if she is, she's
got to have not one but two boys who love her,
which is like both adds nothing to well, I mean,
it's I feel like it's supposed to add stuff to
the story. But there's just multiple elements of this movie,

(42:19):
and I think this is like the most sinister one.
Also introducing Daddy issues ninety minutes into the movie. I
also found to be very unnecessary. I forgot that that
was part of her She's like hallucinating after getting bit
stuff with the mom and the dad being dead and stuff. Right,
I feel like it's like there's too many crutches involving
male characters when it's like this movie does not want

(42:42):
for steaks. The steaks are high enough the whole movie,
and like adding in this like love story that doesn't
work really and then throwing in some daddy issues on
top of it, it's like we are like catness is
already in trouble and the daddy stuff doesn't really pay
off at all except in like a passing comment to
her mom. And I don't know, like there was just

(43:05):
most of the like adding a problem on top of
a problem that was already life or death. It's like
it's just like it's just not necessary. Also, it's also
interesting and how they show like they introduced these like
daddy issues is because what it actually comes down to
is it becomes an issue she has with her mom.
She doesn't think about her dad that much. What happened

(43:26):
is her dad died and the mom shut down emotionally
and she had to take care of herself and she
had to take care of prim so it's actually a
mommy issue, but it doesn't really present that way. It's weird.
I mean, I feel like it kind of glory like
the way mothers are presented in this movie are is.
I mean, it's very limited, but I feel like it
is telling where it seems like we're supposed to assume

(43:48):
because Peter has a bad, possibly abusive relationship with his mom,
that that's why he treats Cat and is like shit
at first, which is kind of like a one to
one and I was like that it should If you're
going to do that, then you have to explore it.
You can't just be like, that's why you shifty two
women so you can like him. I thought he was

(44:08):
like shitty to her because he was embarrassed about being
like bonked on the head with a rolling pin. I'm
not sure what happened, but he got bonked or whatever,
and I think he just was just in a shitty
place and like, I didn't I don't want to keep
being the in the book person. But again, this is

(44:31):
another weakness of the movie. So it's like, on the
one hand, it seems like a really good adaptation, and
on the other hand, it totally doesn't convey at all
what the book version of this was, which is that
he was like, really, you putting himself on the line
by throwing her that. But you're not supposed to give
food to other people in the Hunger games, right in
those worlds, I mean, everyone's hungry. It was like he was,

(44:55):
everyone's so hungry, and so it's hard us to You're
so you're allowed to bread at pigs, but not at people.
It was like that bread was to feed their pigs
that they need to survive, I think. And then so
he's like really risking a beating by even throwing her
some bread, and she remembers this so when he steps

(45:16):
up on stage, at least in the book, she's like,
it's kind of the sense maybe I'm remembering this wrong.
That would be amazing if I'm remembering this wrong. But
but when he steps up on stage, she's like, oh, no,
the only other person who's been nice to meet my
whole life, Like, I don't want it to be him.

(45:36):
He like, was he like gave me bread once? Oh
I read it as she was like, you threw bread
at me. She's like, you sad that it's Peter. Ah,
I did not see that in the movie. The movie,
it seemed like she was like you threw bread at me,
you think you're better than me, and like you saw
me at my worst when I was like hungry and

(45:59):
leaning on a tree in the rain. So she does
not seem bad off. It seems like she was like, yeah,
I was just like having a nice day on the rain.
Those flashbacks are badly done. It's like none of us.
I feel like we all had different takeaways from them.
I just I'm so disinterested in their romantic connection that
I like, honestly wasn't even so is Catnets like she

(46:23):
interested in him. She's not fish to fry, like not dying,
she's too hungry to be in love. Also, this is
what I think about a lot in these types of
love triangles stories where it's like, Okay, you've got her
best friend Gayle is apparently in love with her. Um,
this guy Peter is apparently in love with her. But like,
what if Kenness was a lesbian, like because she's just

(46:43):
been like yeah, it's like she's not because of heteronormativity
in media, But like, where's the story where she was
like character, I would like if she was queer, But
it's just like all the romantic stuff. I feel like
it's just really over done and like not necessary, and
I would love for the movie to have been fifteen

(47:04):
minutes shorter. Um, So if they end so they could
just cut it out, I'll be fine with it. I
agree now as an adult. But if I was reading this,
then I'd like all I wanted at was for two
boys to be in love with me at the same time.
It would be like, oh my god, dream come true.
And so if I was reading this books, I'd be like, yes,
two boys are in love with her and I am her. Yeah,

(47:27):
maybe that's why she's still born. Because we talked about
this sometimes where there will be a boring I mean,
this is not this can be applied to any gender,
but there will be like a boring main character, especially
in like y A and teen fiction, where it allows,
you know, the young person who's reading it or consuming
it in whatever way to plug themselves into that character.

(47:50):
But like, yeah, which is you know and you don't.
I guess maybe that was why I was a little
thrown by, because normally they're not female protagonists that get
this boring plug in treat man, because it's usually like
you're getting a Harry Potter or you're getting a neo,
or you're getting just like a Bland dude. But I guess, yeah,
just getting this is progressive taking all that, like the

(48:13):
pendulum has to swing. I like, I like romance both
as a genre and as like a thing in other movies,
and I like a love triangle. I did not like
this one because I think it was poorly done, Like
there weren't any seeds that the best friend in her
were like a thing. And so when he was like,
oh I can't watch you in the bar, I was
like what why. I was like, oh, you like her,

(48:35):
like okay. And then when that's another thing where it's like, oh,
I guess deep down, I just like always assumed tweet
end up together, which is like, yeah, like it's like
what you guys don't even seem to like each other
until you cosplayed as a rock and then all of
a sudden she's in love seriously when he does that
cosplay as a rock and she's like, oh my god,

(48:57):
like let me drag you into this cave and like
and he's like, oh I have to paint myself as
this cave. Now She's like put it down, like relax
just to Pitai. I'm just can you imagine how many
Instagram followers Pete would have had though? If he could
have just painted himself like various surfaces like he been

(49:21):
insanely popular, many sponsors, many parachute he would have got. Yeah,
he would have been an influencer. Um, that's we've got
to go to another break. But to to wrap up
on the relationship, I guess it makes sense in a
y A thing. I think it could have been more
thoughtfully adapted. And I think it's also like because the

(49:41):
love triangle or just like a romantic storyline is so
pervasive and why fiction, it's just like, can we have
one where there's not? And I'm sure there are And
you know, it's been several years over a decade since
these books were published, so I'm sure I haven't read
much much why A fiction since then. But it's just like,
can't we just have a story about like a badass

(50:04):
young woman like doing cool stuff. And I'm not kissing boys.
I'm mostly compelled by like Peanut and catness relationship as
like them faking a relationship to please the masses and
then actually either not liking each other or like working
together and realizing like we have to fake this for

(50:26):
reality TV, and then we then were full fucking burn
the world down, and then it turns into the America
that that's what it is like, exploring that like expectation
of why a fiction and faking it and having the
reader know that, Like, I think that that much better story.
And the stakes are very high because each of them

(50:46):
could be holding that kind of as like both a
carrot and stick, as like because you better do what
I need you to do, because otherwise I could just
tell everyone that like we don't like or if like
they the powers that be find out that they're faking it,
then they'll, you know, like be mad, don't we have
we have punch ups, Suzanne, uh. And with that, we're

(51:06):
gonna go to a break. We'll be right back. So
I think this might be a good transition into There's
been a lot of discussion surrounding race in this movie.
Um and as always, we want to open everything up

(51:26):
to our listeners who may have info and insights that
we don't. But there were two main subjects that I
found in the coverage of In two thousand twelve when
this movie was coming out, there was very upsetting. Yeah,
the first thing was catanis as being a whitewashed role
by Jennifer Lawrence having been cast um fans of the book.

(51:49):
I mean, it's this is a little trickier to discuss,
but but it does seem like to an extent, there
is something to that because in the books, Um, she's
described as having all of skin and straight black hair,
which leaves it to open to interpretation. But Jennifer Lawrence
is not. She does not have all of skin, nor

(52:09):
does she have straight black hair. No, and whatever whatever
raised Susanne Collins was trying to imply, it doesn't seem
like was was reflected in the casting at all, which
was sort of a discussion around then, but it didn't
seem to for fans at this time to disqualify her.
I know, it's so weird of the seven years ago
and was a different time people barely so that's so

(52:34):
that's where that's worth discussing. And also the fact that
Susan Collins didn't overrule it because she was very integral
in the making of this movie and she had the power.
She's one of the producers, she's one of the writers
of the script. I can imagine because it's not like
she was coming off of another very successful franchise. I
can imagine a situation in which she fought for that

(52:57):
and just could not was overrule, get them to budge
on it. I could say, I mean, yeah, it's it's unfortunate.
And it seems like they were this was like a
very hot time for Jennifer Lawrence. I think she was
like coming off of Winter's Bone and so yeah, so
she was coming off of like it makes sense that

(53:17):
this would be the time to cast her in a
huge franchise. But that was a subject of discussion, and
it seems like, um, some fans were pretty upset that
she had been cast, because that happens all the time.
And then the other main subject of discussion that I
think has changed quite a bit since the movie came
out is the discussion around the black characters in the movie,

(53:39):
particularly um there was a lot of to the point
where there is an in depth New Yorker essay written
about it, Yes, about fan backlash when black actors were
cast as these parts that it is worth saying they
were written as black care Yeah, that was wild watching

(54:03):
that happen. I wasn't I wasn't aware of you. Yeah,
I remember, just like actually like just very dumb. So
you're reading this book and you're like, this character is white, right,
But yeah, So basically there was a bunch of racist
ship heads on mostly Twitter, I think, but kind of
just ve being so upset that ru was black. I

(54:29):
remember this, And yeah. So the article that we referenced
from The New Yorker is called white until Proven Black,
Imagining Race and Hunger Games by Anna Holmes. Um, at
least that's the one I read it. Okay, so check
that out, um, because it provides some good insight about that. Yeah,

(54:49):
it gives I mean it gives like the full like
a scope of fans, like someone who scouted out like
all the racist tweets made around it, there were, Um
let me let me read one directly, just to give
you the idea of what, uh it was like. I mean, basically,
it was just tweets that said, first of all, that

(55:11):
they were surprised that they had cast a black actress
to play Rue, and second that they felt less bad
when a black woman was killed then if a white
woman was killed. So just a lot of really hideous
biases that have absolutely everything to do with the person
making the comment because if they you know, and and

(55:32):
I think it's a lot of toxic fandom stuff of like, oh,
it should have stuck to the book. But it's like
Blenny didn't read the book because it was always written
as a black character, and and it's nuts that it
would be like you read the book and Catness is
like not white question mark, and everybody's like, how dare you?

(55:52):
And then you cast a very obviously black character to
be a black actress and people were like, oh, she's
not white, and it's really the red is white. And
then it's also really interesting to look at it in
the lens of today, which like I had actually forgotten
about that whole controversy with the casting of the character room,

(56:13):
And when I was watching it just with the lens
of twenty nineteen, I was like, man, just as a whole,
it does kind of suck that like a character of
color helps this white protagonist and like points out all
the things that she should do to survive. She points
out the wast and she puts like medicinal leaves on her,

(56:36):
like wasp bite. Yeah, and then dies and then the
white character survives to two white characters survived, which is
not by any means malicious. It's not anything like that.
It just reveals an implicit bias that like people don't
know they have, which is like, oh, well, what's wrong
with that? They were? It shows that the black character

(56:56):
was smarter, and it's like, yeah, but the winner to
have the only girl who's a person of color and
the entire movie be killed. I mean, she's really only
involved in the movie in a meaningful way for maybe
twenty minutes and through the like the lens of how
does it affect our main character? Right, which I know
this is not an ensemble film, and that literally everyone

(57:19):
dies except for two people, but it's still there is
still I think that kind I mean, the cast is
still predominantly white when you consider Elizabeth Banks, Woody Harrelston,
for sure, Stanley Tucci, like the GameMaker, the President is
not like most of the people are white, with the

(57:39):
exception of Lenny Kravitz and some extras you see who
live in District eleven, which is apparently the only place
where the black people live. It's so because I mean,
it's and again it seems like that is uh all,
I mean, that seems like it obviously is a Hollywood problem,
but from what I could find about the book series

(58:00):
is that the books were written to be far more diverse.
It's like implied that they're like most people are mixed
race at this point so far in the future, which
they would be. Yes, it makes sense, but it's still
casts as like an extremely white cast. And if they
hadn't done that, Ru's death would not have been so
rubbed us the wrong way exactly. But also we can

(58:22):
all agree that the relationship between ruined Catness is very compelling.
It's whereas she has like no chemistry with anyone else
my favoritely her sister, the actress who plays Rue a
man less Stenberg. I think I'm saying that right. I'm
not totally sure. I have I have some cool quotes
from her reflecting on this role. But um, my favorite

(58:45):
example of like how that is the most compelling relationship
in the movie is that a man Lestenberg and Jennifer
Lawrence won the Teen Choice Award for Best Chemistry that year,
just like fu J Hutcherson, Like apparently all of the
teams felt that way. Yeah, so just a few words
from a man Listenberg, who, um, if you're if you

(59:08):
I wasn't following her social media or her like activism
very closely before I stumbled across this, but she um,
and she's also a non binary. She goes by she
her and they them, but predominantly she her came out
in like she's just she's a really really cool She's
really cool. And so she did this interview last year

(59:29):
when she was promoting uh movie that I don't think
it was super well received, but it was called The
Darkest Minds and it was a sci fi movie that
she was the lead of. So she was reflecting on
the Hunger Games and some of her thoughts quote, it
does feel really special to have begun my career with
The Hunger Games and to be in a place now
where I can be cast in the lead of this

(59:50):
sort of thing. I don't know that that would have
been possible. At the same time, in the same way,
she continued, noting that it's only recently that Hollywood and
audiences alike have begun to see the effects of big
pushes for on screen diversity, and then she comments on
how she viewed the racist backlash against her character because
she's only like twelve or thirteen to have to deal

(01:00:13):
with that. Yeah, Um, She reflects on it now and says,
quote there was resistance to having black girls in films
and that black women are dehumanized and their lives are
seen as less valuable than white lives. Uh. She This
is from a BuzzFeed interview. By the way, she she
remembers that one of the main complaints was that Rue's
death became less sad to some viewers when they saw

(01:00:34):
her as a black girl. Quote. While it was hurt
full when I was twelve, it wasn't shocking. The irony
of the whole situation was that Rue was one of
the only characters I could find in the content I
loved that was literally written as black. So that is
that her thoughts. She's really cool. She is like also
a major She speaks out about colorism in Hollywood a lot.

(01:00:55):
She turned down a role in Black Panther because she
felt that the should have gone to a darker skinned actor.
She's just she's really cool, so check her out and
support all of her stuff. Amazing. Also, speaking of non binary,
it made me wonders because, like they say, like a
girl and a boy is selected from each district, and

(01:01:18):
it's like, okay, does that mean like non binary gender
queer and like intersect, people are off the hook, like
maybe this could be spun as good. Absolutely mad, but yeah,
just to to wrap up on the conversation about race,
like there's black people in District eleven, there's some black

(01:01:39):
people in the capital, but like in PanAm, there are
no Asian people. There are no like Latin X people.
I think there might be one, maybe two Asian tributes,
but the movie could not care less about those characters,
Like they die immediately, Like it's just such a weirdly
predominantly white cast or a movie that takes place in

(01:02:01):
a world where people would be much browner. I was
going to say, um, perhaps I can provide some perspective
having been alive in like what the world was like then.
It's like we just didn't know, Like we were raised
a certain way with certain ideas about race and gender.

(01:02:21):
So like you guys might not understand. But in just
six it was still six years old. Yeah, I don't know,
so just keep that in mind. It was a very
long time. That's what this this director. I mean, I
don't know how involved Gary Ross was in the creative
writing decisions of this movie, but um, you know he

(01:02:43):
doesn't have a great track record on race. He's also
directed Pleasant Pills. So yeah, um much diversity and black
and White was black and white, I take it back,
and then it had a lot of color at the end.
One of our most beloved episodes anyways. So, um, there

(01:03:08):
was like a scene where Catanets is trying to impress
the judges. It's at the end of the day. It's
like mostly older white men who are like observing and
like no one's paying attention to her at this point,
so she like has to do this like drastic thing
where she fires the arrow like right near them, and

(01:03:28):
it just reminded me of an all too familiar situation
where women are not taken as seriously as other people,
namely straight white men, and she has to like work
much harder to like garner the same respect that someone
like the Cato character just like comes with that privilege

(01:03:49):
of like being respected immediately. I feel like that at
least is one of the things that was effectively commented
on in the movie. At least, Yeah, I think. So
there's a couple of the things that I um enjoyed
too about the movie where this is a rare occurrence,
but you get to see a woman using real weapons

(01:04:12):
when the situation warrants it. Because we talk all the
time about how in movies, if a woman has to fight,
she's given a frying pan to bank on a guy's head.
Just lady things, the kitchen appliances and you know, stuff
like that. This is a pervasive trope. Um. So the
fact that she we see, I mean we see lots

(01:04:35):
of weapons, lots of weapons in this yes, and she
makes them herself. She makes them herself. She's got a knife,
she's got a bone arrow. We get to see a
woman do things that we rarely get to see a
woman doing movies, which is stuff like hunt, use tools,
climb tree wrap, wrap a little rope around your legs
so you can sleep on a tree, be better than

(01:04:55):
her male counterpart at all of the except for decorates.
He's given a traditionally what I would say is a
feminine skill, which is like a decorating and really yeah,
like cooking and really elaborate makeup and being weaker, yeah,

(01:05:18):
and being shrill. Honestly, I find Peter to be shrill.
He was shrill. I just wish he would calm down.
He's hysterical because I didn't mention his hair at the
top of the show. He also suffers from a wet
hair issue. Yes, very bad hair. Bad hair. Sometimes sometimes
I wonder. I'm just like, maybe it's just that Jennifer

(01:05:39):
Lawrence has perfect hair, because that's how that's where all
the hair budget, right. Yeah. Yeah, her wigs were too
good and then everyone else's suffer. I mean, but like
female protagonists need to look clean, she barely looks. I
mean there is a makeovers too cute in District twelve.
I was I would like blue bad dress. Yeah, her

(01:06:03):
kicky boots, leather jacket, her leather jacket that she got
from H and M. What was that? It was very
I liked the jacket to cute. I have almost all
of those articles of clothing I considered like showing up
and caused playing as you do have that. I've seen
that jab, I've got jets that are similar. I've got

(01:06:25):
the jeans. I don't know, but anyways, I say I
didn't buy that. They were poor. Her clothes were like
I do not feel sorry for her. Where is she
shopping you? You just mentioned the makeover. That was one
of the things I actually did like because I feel like,
again the movie frames the makeover as unnecessary and wrong.

(01:06:45):
I feel like there was commentary there, right because again,
there's like this whole ongoing theme throughout the movie where
everyone's telling her catness, you need to be more likable.
Oh by Peter saying that he has a crush on you,
that makes you seem desirable, which is good. I feel
like the movie maybe could have done a little bit
more to suggest that that was a bad stance to take,

(01:07:09):
But I think I would say it does enough. But
I think that maybe for like younger viewers, it was
perhaps too subtle for like pre teens, but it could
all have been the author's intent maybe to comment on like,
she is great at what she does, she isn't like likable,

(01:07:31):
but she can win these games on her own. But
the only way she's going to get outside help is
if she seems like softened by somebody being in love
with her. Right, Like, I think that that, like that
was parts of the movie that I totally agree now
that you mentioned it that it was if I was
like thirteen seeing this movie, would I have picked up

(01:07:51):
on that? Yeah? I don't think I wouldn't I fairly
picked up on it yesterday. Well, and you guys have
provided a lot of insights, like at the end to
what I really liked at the end, at least for
me as an adult woman, was how scary the end was,
because like it was very like girl, what you get

(01:08:14):
yourself into? Trap? And when he grabs her hand and
pulls it out like that, and like the weird fakey
like interview part where she's like, I just you know,
I couldn't imagine that, like I think. Me now, I'm like, dang, okay,
that's like I get it also commentary, But as a
thirteen year old I would have been like, uh huh, yeah,

(01:08:39):
like idiot. I wouldn't have picked up on like the
whole like aesthetic thing like and how she's made to
be cute and how and how Stanley tis like show
us your dress. I would have been like, wow, awsome dress,
Like it wasn't clear enough. You're right that like doing that.
Even though it's like as an adult that watches movies exclusively,

(01:09:00):
this way I picked up right. But that's you know,
we're watching it through the lens that we've trained ourselves
to watch looking for. Also, does Stanley Tucci play the
same character in this movie as he does in The
Devil Worst Product? Question answer, yes, yes, yes, yes, a
thousand times. Yet I love the tuch but I do

(01:09:21):
think that Alan Common could have played this just as well,
and Alfred Molina could have played just as well. Alfred
Molina interesting. Interesting for Melina is our best friend. I mean,
he's great, but he just wouldn't have gone first. And
it's real crime that I wouldn't. A lot of people
make that mistake. A lot of people make the mistake

(01:09:42):
of not going to Alfred Molina first. He's available to
do podcasts, so he can be in your movie. I'm
really growing as a person just talking to you, guys.
You're welcome. It's amazing. That's the true mission of this
podcast is to get Alfred Molina cast in more roles.
Just to go back to the weapons discussion very quickly. Um.

(01:10:04):
According to a study from the Gina Davis Institute, which
does a lot of great work, Fell and Olympic archer,
which is what this is about. UM, I forgot about they.
The institute conducted a study that concluded that seven in

(01:10:24):
ten girls who had taken up archery say that Catanets
from The Hunger Games and Princess Meridith from Pixar's brave
influenced their decision to take up archery. That's great and perfect.
I buy it because I want to do it too,
write I mean, and it shows something that we talk
about a lot, which is that representation matters. And this

(01:10:48):
studies specifically about archery, but similar studies have been done
about like showing women in computer science and other like
stem fields and showing those women in those roles in
media and not influencing girls and young women to pursue
careers in those fields and stuff like that. So, I mean,
the more you're represented, or the more a specific thing

(01:11:09):
is represented, the more people, especially young people will think, oh,
I can do that too. Female ghostbusting has gone up
nine um no, but that totally I mean, And that's
why we're always like pushing for more movies about like
women who are also athletes and stuff like that, because
it does. It does make a difference. I think that

(01:11:31):
one of the strengths of this movie is that so
it is based on source material from a female author
who also was allowed to adapt her own work for
the screen. There's three credited writer Suzanne Collins, Gary Ross,
and a man bafflingly named Billy Ray Cyrus it's not
we do not have the cyrus on me was like,

(01:11:53):
finish the sentence they're hanging, Um, who I mean? And
but it seems as if because they're both prolific screenwriters,
that they probably had more of a role in just
helping uh Suzanne Collins adapt. But she also has a
history of she was a TV writer. She wrote for
Clarissa Explains It All and a number of other and

(01:12:15):
the Mystery Files of Shelby woo, oh my god, so
many female Yeah, so it is, and it is cool
of like, I feel like it's not very common that,
especially when there's like I think that this movie definitely
benefited from her adapting it. Like, god knows what would
have happened if three men had adapted this work, and
it would have made her too sexy and it would

(01:12:37):
have rosy, which is another thing that I wanted to
real Grossy Josie Grossy. And there's also a legendary female
producer involved in this, Nina Jacobsen, who was one of
the only women to head a Hollywood film studio ever. Um,
so it seems like there were like women in power

(01:12:58):
who were steering this movie in the right direction. And
then the last thing I wanted to mention was although
there is a male cinematographer animal director, I felt like
the way that Jennifer Lawrence, who is very often objectified
and uh in movies like her body, is not made
a feast of in this movie. Yea for a moment. Yeah,

(01:13:22):
props to to movie for not you know, just making
it about her body. Most of the time, she's in
full like I mean he talked about mother exclamation point
and that's just like out of your relationship, Aaronosky, I
don't want anything to do, but yeah, I mean, well
instead it's just like a million, like very very tight
close up shots of her face and yeah, yeahs. I

(01:13:48):
would just like to throw out there real quick that
the album that came out that is not the soundtrack,
but it's Hunger Games songs from District twelve, which are
just like a lot of like kind of blue grassy
and it's all that. It's just one that it's just
that it's really good. That's so weird. Now there's this

(01:14:11):
whole album where it's just like inspired by and it's
really good, like Arcade Fires on their Nico Cases on
their District Must Be. It's like Coleman in country. It's
like Appalachia, which is like where I grew up. Brag
damn um proud, brag, proud Appalachia. Just like a quick

(01:14:34):
fire list of of last thoughts I had. Hamage calls
Catness sweetheart no less than like six times in the
movie very annoying. He is not a feminist icon, and
I don't think he's framed as one. No, No, he's
supposed to be a shout out to the I don't
know if we ever learned her name or what district
she's from, but the girl with red hair, oh double bun,

(01:14:56):
double b that's a name. It is makes it almost
all the way to the very end. Loved her and
she's like another type who like doesn't want to kill anyone,
but she's just trying to outlast. And that's another thing
I want to say, is that, like I was kind
of worried that because female characters are so often presented
in movies, is like having to be this polite, nice,

(01:15:20):
never would do anything wrong because women are high held
to a higher standard than men of like just being
perfect and polite all the time, that like Catnets wouldn't
kill anybody, that she would, or just like maybe passively
kill someone, but she like she kills different people, and
I was like, does does does Peter kill anyone? I'm like,

(01:15:41):
Peter does not kill anyone. I don't think it's too
busy painting he is. He had took him six hours
to paint himself like a rock, like he should have Realistically,
he should have been killed in the time it took
him like a paint And the only reason he got
stabbed was because he wouldn't, like stop painting himself as

(01:16:01):
a rock. When somebody attacked him. It was so he
was fully painted as a rock. And that guy was
like running and tripped and fells like but he's like,
he's like keeping together, got me again, don't feel rocks
to last things real quick? Um. On the train to
the capital, Hey, Mitch asks Catnis if she will pass

(01:16:24):
the marmalade. So, mich is basically Paddington. So I mean,
but I mean, I know Paddington is a million times
better Stare. But so let me rephrase um feminist icon.
I mean, you're not wrong, he is a feminist icon.
Mitch is trying to emulate Paddington in this scene, but

(01:16:45):
he does not succeed because Hay Midge sucks and Paddington
would give him a hard stare, and Paddington would never
wear that wigton or be drunk. Paddington wears raincoat. I
was gonna getting prepared to be wet there. Really he
should have been in the Hungary game. He would have
died immediate, almost instantly. And then finally there is a

(01:17:10):
cat that belongs to I think prim that hisses a
catnet at the very beginning, just reminder that cats do
have eight nipples and cat and I actually wow, I
was on how many nipples does a cat miss have?
I was on the phone with my boyfriend and I
accidentally called her cat call Everdeen three times. I was like, yeah,

(01:17:33):
cat call and he was like no, no, no, any
other final thoughts. That's all right, let's does the movie
pass the Bechtel cats? It does, doesn't It never not
pass the I mean when women are talking, it's rarely
about a man kind of trying to say, like being hungry,

(01:17:56):
what they should do if kind of dies, right, how
they should not be Dystopia is going to be doing
a lot for the Bechdel test. We just will not
have time to talk about men. Yeah, talking about survival
does that happen even once that that that it does
not pass that, like two women talk about men. I
feel like maybe the dad comes out that what's her name,

(01:18:19):
Elizabeth Banks? I think is maybe talking to her about
the peta fakery something. But most of the time between
like Catinus and prim Catiness and her mom Catiness and
Effie and Rue, it's passing is always passing, which is
which is very impressive for a movie this popular to

(01:18:40):
like more often than not be passing for sure. Movie,
let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to
five nipples based on representation and treatment of women. I'm
gonna go with the I suppose us three because on
one hand, it's like, okay, it, you got this like

(01:19:01):
kick ass young woman who the young people who this
franchise is for can like plug themselves into and see
an awesome, kick ass, strong female protagonists represented on screen.
Really bugs me about the love triangle and the romantic
relationship that feels very wedged in and unnecessary, the failure

(01:19:25):
to be more inclusive when it comes to race and
the casting choices, stuff like that. But it is cool
that she gets to, you know, use a weapon to
kill people with and not a frying pan, So points
for that. Um, I'll give one nipple to Rue, I'll
give one nipple to the tooch, and I'll give my

(01:19:49):
last nipple to two buns, the girl with red hair
who survives almost the entire time. Clever clever Bus, I
would watch a cartoon called clever Buns. Clever Buns. I'll
go three point five on this one. I liked it.
I liked it just like in general, I enjoyed the

(01:20:10):
movie way more than I was expecting to, and like
I had a lot of fun watching it for the
most part. And yeah, I mean I think that they're
this movie. It makes some pretty egregious errors in regards
to how race is depicted, when it seems like the
source material was there for that to not happen. Um,
so don't like that. I like Catness is character. I

(01:20:33):
feel like she checks a lot of boxes, even though
I found her to be boring personally. I guess the
the thing I'm really deducting nipples for, if we're getting
into the weeds on it is I just like I
wish that Ru was not sacrificed to give Catness more,
which again I think is sort of like if she

(01:20:54):
were not the only woman of color. That would be
a less egregious thing. But because of the way it's presented,
it's it's like it just seems like you're sacrificing one
of your only black characters to reinforce the white woman
woman's mission, which is like I don't love that. Uh,
and and just kind of what we were all talking
about with I feel like there's a lot of stuff

(01:21:15):
that we picked up on in this movie that the
intended audience might not necessarily pick up on. So hitting
I mean, in y A movies, you got you gotta
really kind of hit the points rather hard for them
to get across. Um, so I'll go I'll go three
point five. Though I enjoyed it. I'll give one to
prim because I liked her. I'll give one too clever Buns,

(01:21:41):
give one to ru, and I'll give my happy to
Mr Kravitz. Yes, very good, Kelly, I'm gonna do at
three point seven five. Um love them when I gets
the exact Yeah. Well, because I'm a little more okay
with the romance, just because I do like romances. I
wish it was done better. All of my deductions are

(01:22:03):
going to be because of mostly because of how race
is kind of handled. I just think you can't help
but look at this and with the like the things
that we know now, the wetness of the wig is
I'm that's maybe a full nipple that I think, So
the bulk of it is the wet wig. But like
you know, I think because I actually I almost hate

(01:22:26):
it more when things are too ham fisted and when
things are too like bonking you on the head with
like this is feminist, Like I am okay with it
just because I'm being selfish and just purely rating this
on how I'm liking it rather than like how I
would have liked it at thirteen. To me, I think
it did handle like, hey, this is kind of how

(01:22:48):
the patriarchy is treating women and like kind of parading
them around and that kind of thing. So for me,
that's that's why it sits at a pretty three point seven.
So I'm gonna do one one for ever Buns because
they did like her. She really ended up being the
hero of this unsung hero. I was going to say
she's the MVP of Hunger Games. She was. She was.

(01:23:11):
She was really hustling, hustling. Um one for oh Catness's
leather jacket at the beginning, UM one for Rue because
I did really love Rue and I wished I also
wished she didn't die. And then point seven five to
the touches teeth, they were so good. Thank you for

(01:23:36):
not letting that drop off. Irresponsible of me as a
Vineers scholar to not point out, yes, I mean just
very like chick Lidy, Veneers really hold on. It's amazing
you can understand a word. He says, yes, But he's
a professional, professional, always a professional. What if he, like
had to train ten hours a day. Tod talked with
those Veneers, I went to Veneer training, filming began. Um

(01:24:03):
I so as far as like just full on movie review,
I would do three nips as far as ethnic diversity,
a mere one nip as far as female representation. And
this is mostly based on the actual content and intention less.

(01:24:24):
So on direction. I think direction is where the messaging
fell short, perhaps and where things got muddy. I don't
think it was the writing. I think the writing was
very solid. So I'm gonna give it four. I'm gonna
give it four nips for just female representation. And that's
one of the things where the Hunger Games fall short,

(01:24:44):
where the Twilight franchise does not because the first installment
of the Twilight franchise was directed by a woman, where
you would think that the Hunger Games would benefit from
a female director, because it would, and they did not
make the right choice. We gotta do more Twilight movies
on the podcast, I think, but well, but then I
don't think Katherine Hardwick ever directs a Twilight movie again,

(01:25:06):
because sexism. Right, it's true, but it's true alright. Anyway,
two to clever Buns, thank you, One to rue and
one to Ruise. Really artfully done funeral bed. Oh, beautiful
funeral bed. It's a suitiful funeral bed. Found a lot

(01:25:27):
of good fan arts surrounding that honorable mention to Peter
as a rock. He doesn't, No one gave, but it's
just it's just because rocks. He was in disguise so well,
and rocks don't have nipples, so that is always concealed,

(01:25:47):
that is covered in nipples. We're clever buns, buns just nipples,
I mean a deep feminist reading desert real clever nips. Uh. Well,
thanks to the both of you for coming on the podcast.
Thank you so much for having us. This is very fun.
What would you like to plug? Where can people follow

(01:26:10):
you online individually as a podcast you name it? I
am Kelly Nugent. You can find me on Twitter and
Instagram at Kelly nugi k E l l y n
U g e E. If you have l Ray Network
on your cable package, you can watch me on l
Ray Nation that is Thursday nights, seven thirty pm Pacific,

(01:26:35):
where I talk about all things pop culture. UM. You
can listen to my podcast Same Day Shipping where I
ship everyone with everyone, um. And you can also listen
to me and Lindsay's podcasting Creeps, where we review y
pulp fiction like Christopher Pike, arl Stein and many many more. UM.
I'll have to get you on the podcast. Now are

(01:26:58):
come full circle? So I'm Lindsay Katie. You can follow
me on Instagram and Twitter at l I N D
s A y K t A I. And please check
out the Cartoon Network show Infinity Train, which is out
there to find. Now. Finally, I'm very excited. I think

(01:27:19):
everybody who watches it will like it. Hell yeah, incredible.
Thank you so much for coming, Thanks for having and
may the odds ever be in your favorite Oh we
off the plug stuff to u you can follow us,
but it was like, um, are we going to keep going?
You can catch us on all the social needs at

(01:27:39):
back dol cast. You can uh sign up for our
Patreon at Patreon a k Matreon at patreon dot com,
slash batel Cast, where we're serving you two extra episodes
a month four five dollars. What a bargain. And you
can get our merch on our merch store at t
public dot com slash the Bectel Cast. We've got stay

(01:28:02):
tuned for clever Buns, March, feminist icon, Peter as a rock. Yeah,
that would be so good if you cause somehow get
the like do something with a Chevy logo, like painted
as a rock and then like Peter popping out of

(01:28:23):
it or the huge gaping wound in his thigh. I
love living in niche culture. That's a lot good. It's
maybe that'll be in our roach store, but yeah, check
us out on all those places. Also bechtel cast dot
com for our live appearances and things like that, because

(01:28:44):
you know we have live shows here and there. Uh
and once again, may the be ever in your favorite

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Hunger Games with Kelly Nugent & Lindsay Katai