The Princess and the Frog with Lexie Grace

On this episode, Caitlin and Jamie turn into frogs to discuss Disney's The Princess and the Frog with special guest Lexie Grace!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the be Dol Cast. The questions asked if movies
have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and
best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and
welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Durante
Ja Loftus, and we're doing the Princess movie today. Well

(00:26):
that was a good intro, one of our best. Good job.
I think that we've been recording a lot lately, and um,
when we're recording more, I feel like the intros were
just like, um, the show is starting. I hope that's
okay with your permission. The show is starting. Um, but
this is our Betel Cast is a feminist movie podcast

(00:48):
that analyzes the role of female identifying characters in the
famous movie It's True and what do we do Well?
We use the Bechtel Test I ever heard of it?
Sometimes called I Don't Know Her, It's sometimes called the
Bechdel Wallace test, and it's a media metric created by

(01:09):
cartoonist Alison Bechdel, who knows who we are now confirmed
she has, but like she knows, she knows, she knows
we exist and that step one maybe steps yes, yes,
but Alison, if you eventually, you know, probably in when
you get to this episode, you'll hear this invitation for

(01:29):
you to come on the show anytime. Her favorite movie
is Groundhog Day, so there's I've just been like tapping
all my sources to find her favorite movies Groundhot Day,
so she'll hear that episode first. Yes we should. We
did to cover that one, but like re upload it
and be like, we know you're listening. Anyways, what's the
Betel test? Jeez, who knows if he said that and
then we didn't know what it was. Um, two female

(01:52):
identifying characters with names have to speak to each other
about something other than a man for at least two
lines of dialogue. That is our specific bar. Yes, so
let's let's demonstrate. Let's do it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,
Um do you? Oh no, wait, that wasn't going to pass.

(02:12):
It's so hard to pass the backtel tests that passes.
We did it. I was literally about to bring up
the firefly's funeral and like that was a male phone. Yeah.
I just can't get over the fact that they killed
the firefly. We're talking about the princess and the Frog today. Uh,
shall we bring our guests in? Yes, let's do it.
She's terrific. She's a wonderful comedian. She's so funny. It's

(02:33):
Lexi Grace. We're so excited to have you. I'm glad
to be here. I'm very excited. Yes, there's so much
to talk about today, starting with Lexie. What's your relationship
your history with this movie? So Princess and the Frog.
I actually saw it when it first came out, like
Christmas Day two thousand and nine. Yeah, yeah, and I

(02:58):
was in New York. I watched it with my mom.
We we did two movies back to back, that in
Sherlock Holmes and then well but yeah, I went and
saw it like I saw it opening It was either
opening week or like the second week. I think it
was opening week because like I feel like, as a
black woman, like it's really important to support because she
was like the first animated African American princess. But my

(03:22):
favorite African American princess would definitely be uh Brandy, Yes,
Oh my gosh, Brandy. Cinderella. Yes, that's that was like
my formative Cinderella. She's so good. And then it's isn't
it Whitney Houston is the Fairy Godmother. Oh, that's a
special movie, special movie. And then and then I know
Whoopie Goldberg and the Prince have like an Asian Son, which, yes,

(03:45):
but that that movie was great. That's like the Rogers
and Hammerstein one too. Yeah, baby's got to see it.
You've never seen it, it's so. But I have seen
and this is not This is not a princess movie
because I don't think was sort of oz is Dorothy
is considered a princess, but like in the in the
extended universe, she's a princess adjacent. I would say, I

(04:08):
have seen the Ashanti and Queen Latifa Muppet Wizard of
oz which is it's okay, No, it's great, It's okay,
it's it's it's it's one of the better like Muppet adaptation,
I think. So, yeah, I love that movie. I love Ashanti. Yeah,
but yeah, you have to see Brandy Cinerella. Okay, oh

(04:30):
it's really people love it. But so you saw Princess
and the Frog in theaters. Awesome, So so did I.
I also saw it as a double feature, and for
some reason, I thought the other movie was Terminator Salvation,
but I looked up the release date of that movie,
and the timing doesn't line up because that movie did
come out in oh nine, but it was in May,

(04:51):
so that wouldn't have that doesn't So I don't know
what the other movie was. But I did see The
Princess and the Frog in theaters, and I hadn't rewatched
it until this week to prep for the episode. But
I'm very excited to talk about it, Jamie, what about you,
Sam sutt in theaters. Haven't seen it since I double
featured it with Avatar, which so it was like that day.

(05:16):
That day was a lot. That day was an absolute
lot um, but it was because I remember, like we
had tickets to Avatar. I think that we saw Avatar
first and then saw Princess in the Frog, which is
a weird order to do that. And I remember liking it,
but I wasn't watching it critically at all, but I'm like, oh,
I like it. Diana is cool. Um, the songs are
pretty good. Is that Oprah's voice? Yes? Um, that's what

(05:41):
those are the thoughts I remember? Um, And then yeah,
I hadn't revisited it in in a while, but we
get a ton of requests for it and so it's
it's long overdue. I'm excited too, I mean, and it's
like it's it was frustrating to rewatch because you like
the elements of a movie I could like are there,

(06:01):
and then just everything kind of agreed. Like when I
watched it, like I was so excited for this, like
this like African American princess, and then I was like,
why does she have to do the most? Like she's
got a clean she's got a cook she's like handling business.
Everyone's like why are you working? So like it's like
why can't she just be like a regular princess? You

(06:24):
know what I mean? Right right? And and she doesn't
get to visibly be a black woman for seventy of
the movie and why is this happening? Like every god?
And then she's got like the worst prints out of
a lot of them, because like most prints are like
generals or they have like an army, or they've got

(06:45):
some sort of wealth. He's like a broke for his
like the Prince is like not dissimilar to like Lena
Dunham's character and girls. It just like start to like
he's like I've been cut off. Now I'm going to
go to the city and see what happens, because I'm like,
I hate this parallel. This is horrible. It also reminded
me of Eddie Murphy and coming to America. Yeah, that's

(07:09):
a way better comparison. That's way more favorable, right, And
in that movie, like we know why he's coming to America.
In in Princess and the Frog, Navine is just like,
for some reason, I'm in New Orleans. Anyone's doing anything
except you know why Tiana is doing things even though
men are constantly trying to distract her from doing the
clear set goal she has. Um everyone levels You're like,

(07:32):
what is what are they doing? Yeah, everyone in the
movie is just like telling Tiana, They're like why are
you working so hard? Like why are you? And it's
not like she's working so hard that it's like detrimental,
because like I could understand, like she's working hard and
she's like missing like you know, birthdays and like her
you know, her dad's funeral or something like that. But
she seems to clearly have like a good work life

(07:54):
balance right right, Like it's she's working towards a clear goal.
Like that element of the story, You're like they're making
her do the most, but we know what she wants
and she's like capable and working really hard and she's
going to achieve your goal. And then they're like, well,
you can't achieve your goal until you're you get a
man a frogman involved, and you're just like, really, in

(08:15):
two thousand nine, we're still but we're still on that,
are still on that frustrating and also like, I mean,
there's so many issues with the shadow Man that Will
will talk about. But just like story wise, he didn't say,
like at first, you're just like he's just doing evil
Ship because and then he says if he almost exact

(08:35):
halfway mark of the movie, he finally reveals what his
motive is. You're like, why is this coming up? An
hour into the movie. He's like, oh, yeah, you know
how I've been doing all this evil ship for an hour?
Actually I just remembered it's for I hate John Goodman.
And you're like, what, Like it just is a mess?

(08:57):
Is a mess? Well? Should I try to describe the plot? Yeah?
In the recap, Yeah, we'll talk about what's there. Okay,
So we meet Tiana as a young girl. The year
is nineteen thirteen, and I know this because someone is
holding a newspaper that said Wilson just elected, And I
looked up what year Woodrow Wilson was elected in and

(09:17):
it was so I feel like they were trying to
tell us it was the nineteen oh But fast forward later. Yeah,
when she when she's um, I think when we see
Tiana as an adult, she's I think nineteen years old. Damn,
he's really counting on. You know. When Woodrow Wilson was
elected in like a very like throwaway visual, children will

(09:38):
be like, I guess Woodrow Wilson he was elected in
nineteen thirteen, So Titanic has been sunk for one year.
When the story the nation is in distress and we're
in New York, New Orleans is how you say it.
I don't know New Orleans. It's not how you say it.
And she loves cooking. It's her dream to open up

(10:01):
a restaurant with her father. Her mother is a seamstress
who makes dresses for this rich white girl, Charlotte, and
Tiana's mom also reads the Frog Prince to the girls.
Cut to Tiana as a young woman working two jobs
waiting tables. She's saving up money for this restaurant. She

(10:22):
sings the best song in the movie. I like almost
there a lot, that's a fun that's the that's the
banger for me. And this one, I like the song
at the very beginning, and I don't remember how it goes,
but it's something like there's a studio in the south end.
Oh yeah, that's like they're like poor provincial town. Yes exactly,
They're like, this is where we are. And that's so

(10:44):
she's saving up money for her restaurant. Her father has
since passed away. Um, so in this movie we have
a dead parent, but it's a dead father instead of
a dead mother. They really galaxy brained this one too,
because they're like, Okay, we're going to subvert the narrative
by killing her father instead of her mother. But still,
somehow her father and her relationship with her father is

(11:05):
the most. She's like stam, like every five seconds, it's like,
my dad, why did she even kill him? Why? If
he's going to be so looming over the story and yeah, sneaky,
Like even when the mom comes over, she brings like
it looks like a new pot and like it's sorry,

(11:25):
I'm jumping ahead, and she's like, oh, it's dad's pots.
And then her mom has the most regressive you and
oh yeah, there's a whole thematic thing that I want
to talk about. But there I really felt like they
pulled one over on us with like that. No, we
killed the dad this time, but don't worry, he's still
the most important parent. Okay. So then we meet Prince

(11:49):
Navin of Maldonia, which is a fictional country which I'm
guessing is right now Genovia and Aldovia. It's right between
Genovia and Aldovia, as mal Dona, Maldonia is not the
Prince Levin is from. Yes, he shows up to town
and Charlotte is trying to funk him, so she hires

(12:10):
Tianna to make a bunch of Beignet's for a ball
that she's throwing I guess in like Prince Novine's honor
or she's inviting him to the ball or something. I
don't know, but it's happening that night. And with the
money that Charlotte gives Tiana to make all these bennets,
her horny beignets just like Jesus, She's definitely Charlotte is

(12:34):
definitely like Blanch from Golden Girls, person like like younger,
like just chaotic, horny. I found that character to be
so profoundly annoying. Well again, I feel like that was
Disney trying to make commentary. I hate when Disney tries
to comment on their own work. It just always comes
off really annoying, where they're like, Oh, in a normal

(12:55):
Disney movie, she would be the princess, but now she's
a stupid jackass. You're like, that's not the direction with
that's why, right. But anyway, so with this money, Tiana
now has enough money too. I guess put a down
payment on the building that she wants to turn into
her Restaurant's huge, huge, It's like a million square feet.

(13:18):
I don't know how square footage works. Meanwhile, this creepy man,
the shadow Man, Dr Facilier, is like, hey, Prince Navine,
you're broke and you're here in town to marry a
rich girl. Let me help you with that. And at
first I thought he was there as like Mr. Exposition,
but then he gets to do stuff, but he does.

(13:40):
Like his first five lines are like, as we all
know you are a prince and you are here now,
but you don't have any money, Well what should you do?
I'm like, oh my god? And also the prince right away.
It's like you're a fat man, right. Oh yeah, just
like fashion fashion fact. Right, And that character is I

(14:03):
guess Prince Navine's valet or something, Lawrence. So Dr Fasilier
goes to Lawrence and he's like, hey, you're tired of
being pushed around by all these rich people, right, let
me help you with that, And then Navine and Lawrence
kind of separately make a deal with the devil quote unquote.

(14:25):
Then it's the night of the ball and Charlotte is
dancing with Prince Navine and Tiana learns that her offer
for the restaurant that she put in what has been
outbid and unless she comes up with the money kind
of right away, the place will not be hers. Also,
the guys who are the realtors are dressed up as
a horse. Yes, I did laugh at that. There are

(14:48):
a few things I'm like, all right. What I like
is they retracted their offer right after like her and
her mom had like cleaned the place. Yeah, I guess
she had the keys. Yeah, And I think they're like, well,
it's cleaner now, so it's more valuables. Sell it for
more money. That's not with with that, Tiana sings when

(15:11):
she's cleaning stuff. I mean, I hate that she has
to be clean while she sings it. But that has
a pretty good song too. Yeah, it's not not almost there,
so it's almost there. That is almost there. Okay, yes,
that is almost there. And there's so many there's too
many songs. There's a lot of songs. There's a lot
of songs, and I would say most of them are
not good. Went there almost their slaps, not a good

(15:33):
villain song, not a just mess. Yeah. Anyway, So Tiana,
learning that her her bid has been outbid, causes a
big spill and she gets food all over her. So
Charlotte loans her one of her fantasy dresses, and Tiana
is lamenting about losing her opportunity to own the restaurant.

(15:55):
And suddenly there's a frog right there, and that frog
can talk because he's Prince Navine. So we're like, wait
a minute, who's that guy who looks like Prince Navine
dancing with Charlotte downstairs? What? Anyway? So the frog is like, hey, Tianna,
please kiss me, and if you do, I will give
you money for the restaurant. Because he was like, this

(16:17):
is fine, this is fine, and he was hurt. It
seems like a fair offer. He wants her to kiss
him because because she's dressed up in this fancy gown,
he thinks that she's a princess, and I will break them.
I mean, he of all people, should know right that

(16:40):
not everyone he's ever met who's wearing a dress is
related to him, like or his royalty in the US.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there
has ever been any royal family based like there are
no monarchies, there's any time. Thank you so much. I
just wanted to make sure. What if I was like,

(17:01):
actually there is a king? How did you do? We've
got we've got I mean, now that we've got Megan,
maybe she's gonna I seem she hates being royalty, but
maybe she'll bring it over here and be like, hey,
for your consideration, for it's about time. And at this
point we're like, yeah, sure, I mean, our presidency isn't

(17:23):
really working out. Why there's well switched to maybe better
than right anyway, So um the frog is like, hey, Tiana,
let's kiss and she's like, okay, fine, if you're going
to help me get my restaurant, i'll do it. But
when she kisses him, he stays a frog, and Tiana

(17:43):
also turns into a another frog. This is one of
the well I have things to say about this. Later
they're just like, okay, magic is supposed to work for
distey princesses. I hate this subversion to where they're like,
you know, our first black and says we're gonna get
the magic to fuck her over here. Like why, I

(18:04):
don't know. I'm just supposed to help. Okay. So now
they're both frogs and they have to and everyone's like frogs.
So they have to run away and escape this party,
and then they fly away with some balloons into the swamp.
Then we find out that Lawrence the Valet or valet

(18:26):
is who is occupying Navine's body, and Navine was turned
into the frog. This was all done by Dr Facilier,
who I think just around this time is about to
tell you why he's doing everything. Yeah, he for the
first half of the movie. You're just like chaos. I

(18:47):
guess it's just his outfit. He has to be mean
like the boy, so I guess. So he doesn't. He
wants to be rich, he wants to control the town,
and so he needs to This is again like one
of those I mean, and this happens with Disney Villains
a lot, but like the things he's doing to accomplish
his goals are so round. Yeah, you're just like why

(19:08):
would this be because he says like, I can't conjure
anything for myself, so I guess he was waiting for
this opportunity, even though it seems like he could have
killed Popa at any point, right right, Like it seems
like he always I got confused, especially in the back
half of this movie. There's so many like talismans and magic.
There's multiple magical items introduced to like supplement plant that

(19:30):
doesn't make sense where I lost track of the items.
I was like, oh, there's the thing where you got
to get the frog blood. Then there's like the voodoo
doll of John Goodman, and then there's like a necklace,
and then you're like, there's too many things going on,
and there's a whole conversation that will have about any
portrayal of that's the whole thing. But yeah, I was
losing track of all the different like the various magical

(19:53):
items that they're like, oh, well this is happening because
frog blood, and you're like, what but what his plan was.
He he wants like money and control of New Orleans,
and so he has to kill John Goodman. Is that
because he will inherit the He's doing like a sixty
forty split with Lawrence, who will inherit the money from

(20:16):
Charlotte once her father has died, and it could happen
to a long the money. Yeah, because women don't have
any right. So he's like, as soon as she gets married,
He's like, okay, women can just about now, so I
feel pretty comfortable, like this will work out in my
favorite oh yeah. And then also like also too, it's

(20:38):
weird because like there's no, like you said, in his plan,
there's no like afterthought, like okay, like after they kill him,
like then what like what will they do in Charlotte? Yes,
Like I feel like it's assumed to turn her into
Oh yeah, I guess that they could do that. I don't,
I don't know what. Like, it is a very convoluted plan,

(20:58):
for sure, and to the point where he even like
towards the end, when the plan starts to funk up,
he's like singing about how the plant is convoluted. He's like, well,
this is a small part of a much larger plan.
You're like, yeah, we know they're hard to be a
more direct way, right, but alas um. So then we
cut back to the frogs in the swamp and they

(21:19):
find out that they can talk to all animals, but
most of the animals want to eat them, so they
have to get away from all these like alligators and stuff.
But then they meet this friendly trumpet playing alligator, Lewis,
and he tells them about Mama Odie, who is a
who who does voodoo. She's a plot which and he's like, well,

(21:43):
maybe she can turn you back into humans. So they
embark on this quest to find Mama Odie. Meanwhile, Lawrence
is trying to marry Charlotte. So there's the whole like
Lawrence as Navine is trying to right and then did
that have to be there? Like I feel like you
can kind of do away with a part of that,
Like if you take Lawrence out, and then it's just

(22:04):
like Prince Navine is missing. I feel like you kind
of accomplished the same thing with a way less convoluted
still in this plot, but that's just you know, who
am I who are stupid? That's not true. But they've

(22:24):
hit a snag because the talisman that contains Navine's blood
is running out. So um dr Faciliate calls upon his
friends from the other side, which are like these shadow
demons to go find Frog Navine. Um So, back in
the swamp, they made this Cajun fly named Ray who

(22:47):
helps lead them to Mama ODIs and they get there
and Mama Odie is like, well, if Charlotte kisses Frog
Navine before midnight because she's technically a princess before midnight
because her father was voted King of Marty, and yeah,

(23:09):
like where who controls the magic that it would work, don't.
I also like that her gumbo pot is like a
crystal ball. Wait, You're just like wait, could it always
do that? And then like for a second when they
had the tibat, like when she puts the Tabasco sauce
in there, I was like, wait a minute, but then

(23:30):
I was like, that's kind of accurate though, sauce um.
But anyway, so if all this manages to happen, then
both Navine and Tiana as frogs will turn back into humans.
But meanwhile, Navine is to use an expression that the
kids are saying, he's catching some fields for Tiana, right,

(23:53):
and he's about to tell her that he loves her
and then also proposed to her. Question which is another
thing that's very treated as like, of course, because the
second that Charlotte meets Prince Navine, who's actually the other guy,
she's they dance once and she's just like, I'm ready
to get married, right, which is like a weird like
movie trying to have it both ways, where it's like

(24:14):
they're subscribing to the Cinderella logic of like we met,
we're getting married, but it's also trying to be modern
and it's like kind of failing at both right. But
before Frog Navine can express his feelings to Tiana, he
gets captured by the shadow creatures and they steal more
of his blood so that Lawrence can turn back into
Navine so that he can get married to Charlotte during

(24:37):
the Mardi Gras parade, and then Frog Tianna sees them
like about to get married, and she thinks it's the
real Navine and she's like, no, that's my boyfriend, because
I guess she also loves him. Question Mark, right, when
do we know? Well, Caitlyn, of course she loves him.

(24:59):
He legs her for most of the movie that subscribing
by the rules of the game. And then Ray the
Firefly helps Frog ven he escapes, and they steal the
magic talisman that's holding the blood and then Ray gives

(25:21):
it to Frog Tianna, who smashes it and Dr Facilier
is like no, and then all the shadow demons kill him,
but not before he squishes Ray the Firefly and kills him,
and I guess we're supposed to be sad about that,
and I was just like, I don't care about this character.
But they throw the whole funeral for it. But how

(25:44):
wild is it that they commit to killing the Firefly
so shocked? That's like ifs Flounder got shocked. You're like,
that doesn't happen to the fun sidekick? Right? There? Is
there any precedent on which I mean, it's like in
Disney Princess movies. Any in Disney beside Bambi's mom, who
wasn't that who didn't feel that role? Like parents die

(26:08):
but but or are already did? But yeah, kicks don't die.
Like I was, I forgot about that and I was shocked.
I was like, oh my god. And then I was like, well,
something's gonna happen with the magic. He's gonna come back
to life. But then they're like, no, he's a star. Now,
he's a star. He actually and they throw a whole
funeral for him, and you're like, first of all, I

(26:29):
don't care about this character. Seven of all, it's just
I was so shocked that they It's like if, yeah,
if if Sebastian had actually been like caught by the
chef and right, and they're like, he's happier now, Like, no,
he's not. He's not. There's gonna he's now a shell

(26:51):
on the island. Oh my god. And then it also,
I mean this it's I know it's a cartoon, but
the when when when the bug does, You're like, oh no,
and then it starts raining. I'm like, realistically, this Bug's
corps would be like like like the corps would not
have survived at the funeral, like bug when you when
I when a dead bug is rained on, it just

(27:12):
turns to goop. Also, like like Danna just like crushed
his dreams before he died. She was like, it's a star,
it's not even a real thing. But again, he's not
really an important character arguably didn't need to be. Yeah,
but who is Raymond? I didn't understand whatever shrug sug

(27:36):
he dies. So then frog Novine is like, Okay, Charlotte,
it's almost midnight, Please kiss me so that Tiana and
I can turn back into humans. And you have to
make sure you give Tiana the money for her restaurant,
which arguably Charlotte should have done at the very beginning.
But anyway, she kisses him, but it doesn't work. They

(27:58):
don't turn back into humans. So then, in the wildest
plot twist of all, Tiana and Levine decided to just
stay frogs and then get married and gives up on
her dreams. So wasn't So it's so funny because she's
so hard working throughout the whole movie that for her
to be like, yeah, I think this is just how

(28:20):
it's going to be now trays her entirely. They're like
she's like this could work, and then you're like, oh no,
Like what about Oprah, where's my daughter? Like open? No
one ever is is no, we never get to open
to be like where's Tianna? Where she go? No one's
asking where she is because Tiana still lives at home.

(28:43):
Yeah no, she Oprah is missing her? Like but you know,
she works eight ships of a job, you know, so
she's probably like there, oh my god, like I just
but like, you know, if this were like any lot like,
she would have hopped on over to Oprah and then
like hell right, I think for something. Right, But that's

(29:03):
how little like the movie values their relationship. Also, her
frog wedding, there's all these animals from the forest and
it's like, you don't know, all these animals all been
friends with like three animals, and one of them died
after you yelled at it like that. Oh boy, it's
I still kick it over that they killed the bug
they killed. They get married as frogs, but here here's

(29:25):
the okay, off a cliff there. It's just like I'm
just think of all the different ways you could murder
Disney sidekicks. Just I can't handle it, Okay. So then
they get married as frogs, which Mama Odie officiates the wedding.
But because they get married, and because Navine is a prince,

(29:46):
that makes Tiana a princess. So when he kisses her
at their wedding, he's kissing a princess, which is the
thing that needed to break the spell. And that's what
turns them back into humans, so other humans standing in
the middle of a swamp kissing, and it's a his
wife based plot twist at the end too, because they

(30:08):
also have to explain it to the audience because you're
like what uh, and like, well, you did kiss a
princess because when I became your wife, I became a princess.
So now I'm a princess. You kissed me and now
we're hot again, and everyone's just like yay. And then

(30:29):
where did they get the money? Is it from? You
see his parents? For two seconds, I'm like, I guess
maybe they're cool now. And then she but I don't
think they get the money. I think they have an
alligator that intimidates the bankers, Like yeah, she uses the
money that she had earned through all of her serving jobs,
and so they just but what about the person that
outbid her? He's dead. I don't know. It was the

(30:52):
firefly firefly hup. Hum. Fortunately he was killed, and so
that was just just I mean, so many threads are left.
She gives up at the end and then she's like,
now that I'm your wife, I can achieve my dreams.
You're like a cool message that pissed me off. So much. Well,
let's take a quick break and then we'll get really

(31:15):
a deep dive into the discussion gritty and we're back.
Where should we start, Lexie? Where do you want to start?
Where should we? But I mean, there's so much. Well,
let's first talk about how in the opening they had
the six year old feed like the entire Yes, she

(31:36):
fed everybody on her block and she was like six
years old, and that was like, I mean, this movie is.
I tried to do as thorough as I could of
a context corner for this because it's like I think
it's a really bizarre because Disney is so determined to
never make a meaningful comment on anything, it is weird

(31:58):
to me that they chose to set this movie in
a very specific place and time like Jim Crow era
Jim Mouth just sanitize it to death. It also like
upset me that, like it also is like a weird
class thing, like like it's it's supposed to be a fantasy,
Like it's like a it's a princess story, like there
shouldn't be Like it felt like oh, there's like everybody

(32:20):
that was bad was like kind of like they were
like mostly white except for the voodoo man, and then
there was like very classism where it was like rich
white people and then poor black people, and then we
only had like Navid who I don't know exactly. He's
from Maldonia. He's like ethnically ambiguous, yes, but it just
I don't know. It also bugged me. This is where

(32:43):
I had like the biggest crocs with the movie is
like she works so hard, and like everybody is always
pooping on her working hard, right, I mean, it's it's
confused because I feel like Tiana is so she lives
in this non existent new or lends where Jim crow
Law has never happened. Uh, rich white people are just like, whoops,

(33:04):
we forgot to Like it's it's like that. I feel
like that is like a very common thread in Disney
movies when they're trying to avoid discussing systemic racism in
any way. They're like, oh, well, the rich white people
are kind of goofy. They're like a little bit dumb,
but they're nice, but they're they're just kind of like
they didn't they didn't think of it. Um. It's just
like it's such a bizarre decision to set this in

(33:26):
the Jim Grows South because it's like, first of all,
like Charlotte could not have legally married Prince Navie, like
interracial marriage is not legal at this time. There's a
lot written on how like Tiana and Charlotte being able
to be friends that share clothes like that would have
been very unlikely, and just the white people in this

(33:46):
story wouldn't have been like, oh, we're goofy, like they
would have been enforcing systemic racism. But but in this
like no one challenges the class system set up in
this movie, no one challenges the racial politics of this world.
Everyone's kind of friends, but all the people who are
poor just happened to be black, Like it's the choices

(34:10):
that were made to contextualize, like the setting and the
time of this story are very bizarre. Like the fact
that this is like the first black Disney princess is
that's important representation that means a lot to a lot
of people. And the character, at least at the beginning,
is like a good character, Like she has more agency

(34:32):
than most Disney princesses do. She has a dream that
doesn't involve getting married, like she she has more from
the jump than a lot of Disney princesses do. But
then it's just like sold out so through and then
to take all that and then like yeah, put it
in this bizarrow the fantasy world. Does I think the

(34:52):
first black Disney Prince as a huge disservice And then
like you already said, like she we don't even see
her as a black woman from most of the movie,
which doesn't. Yeah, yeah, they had to Disney. I was
I was reading that they had to change it because
originally they had it named the Frog Princess and so
there was like a lot of backlash of that. And
then they also tried to name her Maddie, but it

(35:14):
came to it sounded too close to Mammy. And then
she also was a maid at some point, like I
think to like Charlotte's family. Yes, yeah, that was like
the original plant. I mean, it will not surprise anyone
that this movie was directed by Whiteman. There is a
credited black writer on the movie, along with two white writers.

(35:36):
The music was somehow written by like it's a movie
that takes place in New Orleans and Randy Newman wrote
the music. Kid can't figure it can't crack that one. Uh,
And it's just when you see the production team that
was behind this movie. It's very easy to understand. Of
course they funked it up. It also was funny, like

(35:58):
as like a weird side note, the people that wrote
this movie actually also wrote Aladdin. And it's interesting because
I feel like the shadow Man, like his intro kind
of sounded like the Genie is a little bit, and
then I feel like they were did it feel like
visually they were referencing the Genie song at the end
of the shadow Man song where it's like, you know,
at the end, like the Genie like there's all these

(36:20):
other chid just popping up and then he's in the center,
and it just felt really similar. No, it definitely did.
And also the other thing that kind of like was
annoying as like, is that like she kept having this
dream and like even when she raised the money and
it was like, oh, you finally raise the money for
your dream, her mom was like, well what about a man? Like,
oh yeah, okay, let me break this down because I

(36:41):
was like, what is this. So there's a recurring theme
throughout the whole movie, basically saying like all you need
is love to quote the famous song. So it starts
with Tiana's mom, whose name we do learn you, Dora,
she's like your dad never you know, lived out to

(37:02):
see his dream to have the restaurant, but that didn't
matter because he had love in his life. So and
that's and that's what I went for you, Tiana, to
meet your prince charming and dance off into your happily
ever after. And then Tiana is like, well, I don't
have time for dancing, and then you doors like, but
I want grandchildren. So it's like this theme is established
that like having hopes and dreams is kind of stupid,

(37:24):
especially if they relate to your career and are not
really necessary as long as you have love in your life.
And this is again, I think, like a bizarre choice
to ignore the time period so thoroughly, because it's like
I feel like maybe it's a more nuanced conversation if
her mother is saying basically like these opportunities aren't afforded

(37:46):
to women, much less to black women who are from
a poor background, Like I feel like that is more
like there's an opportunity to make commentary. But then she
just comes off sounding sexist because this world, the world
of this movie is such a that you like sucking
void of messing nous that She's just like, you can't
open a restaurant, not because of all this oppression, it's

(38:07):
because I want a grandkid now. And then this goes
double down on a little later when the frogs reach
Mama Odi and she sings this whole song about like
who cares about what you want? It's it's about digging
a little deeper and figuring out what you need. And
the implication here, at least as far as I could tell,
was what you need is romantic love. Ye. Also, by

(38:29):
the way, when she kept saying dig deeper, I was like,
is she shanty? Like? Am I supposed to squat? Like
from insanity? It's just like it It is just like
one of the first Disney I'm trying to think of
if prior to Tiana, like were there Disney princesses that
really had dreams outside of romantic love, Like like it's
like you look at Mulan, but like Mulan like everyone

(38:52):
else is like you're a badass, like that's really cool,
like your your kick butt, whereas her everyone's like you're
a killed joy. Tiana got that scene with her friends
at the beginning where they're like, are you gonna come
out dancing? She's like, no, I work seventeen jobs. And
they're like, Tiana is so awful. I can't believe how
hard she works to open up business, and like this

(39:13):
this doesn't happen. This is like absurd, and it happens
like literally all the time throughout the whole movie. Are
like why are you working? Including Navina, And then I
love that Navina is like, well, you know, I'll take
jobs so that you can get your restaurant. It's like,
well she's doing good raising the money on her own. Yeah,

(39:34):
she's like such an I mean, and and it's not
lost on us either that like she has to work
ten times harder than any Disney princess has ever had
to for anything. Like I mean, Cinderella technically had a
job sort of, I guess, but like, but you know,
like Tiana is under way more pressure and she's made
fun of for it, and you're just like this, you

(39:55):
can't do both. You can't do you know. One is
like people should be hiring how hard she get it.
Everyone's just like you fucking idiot with your dumbass dreams.
I mean, her having to work so hard to get
access to anything is one of the only things that
lines up with the world that they are putting you in,
but then everyone's reaction to it takes place in nowhere land. Yeah,

(40:16):
just like in the Disney Void. It's so frustrating because
it's it is. I mean, I am at least glad
that you get to see that like determined side of
Tiana at the beginning. No, for sure, I like I
am glad that, Like I feel like I have a
complicated relationship because I do like that she is a
hard worker and she does have goals, but I don't
like that she was like goal shame throughout the whole movie. Yeah,

(40:39):
it's and the fact that, like the movie ends with
her opening up the restaurant after all, and she does
it with money that she earned waiting tables and not
that like Navine was like, here are my riches to
give to you, Like she worked hard for it and
she earned what she got. And then it does seem
like she's the breadwinner of their relationship because she's the
one who's like running this restaurant and Navine's parents had

(41:02):
cut him off. But then they're also at the wedding
in they're life hi, and you're like money again, probably
a wedding gift, but before that, um To kind of
continue on this theme of like dreams are pretty silly
and love is what you need. When Dr Facilier is
like showing Tiana what she could have and he could

(41:23):
grant her this wish and he says something or she's like,
you know, my father never had what he wanted, but
he had what he needed. He had love. And it's
like so another like doubling down on this theme. So basically,
like Tiana learns the lesson that all you need is
romantic love in your life. And then at the end,
Navine is like, well, I have to marry Charlotte. It's

(41:45):
the only way for you to get your dream Tiana,
and she's like, well, my dream wouldn't be complete without
you in it. And it's like since when like you
met him earlier today, that's I mean, then that's like
the Disney Princess. But it is like of all the
places that Disney tries to subvert in this movie that
you're like, why would you do that, that's the one

(42:06):
place that they don't subvert from like we met and
now we're in love. It's funny. Out of all the
Disney princesses, I felt like this was like the most
heavy handed about like money is bad. I love when
Disney says money is bad and you're like, I don't know,
I'm going to go to Star wars Land. What I mean,

(42:27):
the message of this movie is so convolated because it's like,
I mean, there's been a lot, a lot, a lot
written on the impact of this movie, how it's aged,
even in the ten years it's been released, and it
is like, I mean, there's more to be said about
the production background of this movie where I mean John

(42:48):
Lasseter was at the head of this production, which that
that fact doesn't age well. Um and and he hired
a bunch of like legacy Disney white guys to come
in and right and craft this movie because New Orleans
was his favorite city. But you're just like, uh, there's
no like it seems like very little research was done,

(43:10):
very little consideration was done because there was no one
in the room too, Like they wouldn't allow anyone in
the room who would say something when this movie came out,
So two thou same year that Barack Obama has taken office,
and there were a lot of movies that came out
like shortly after Obama is elected that sort of are
touting this like color blind world and that like this

(43:31):
movie very much subscribes to that of like, well, now
that we have a like our first non white president,
racism is fixed and no one like the the the
legacy of racism doesn't affect this country any at all anymore.
And also there was a lot of upset when this
movie was announced as taking place in New Orleans because

(43:53):
while especially while it was in production and still in
two thousand nine, New Orleans itself had been so thoroughly
affected by Hurricane Katrina that it like forced like hundreds
of thousands of black residents out, And I was like,
and now we're gonna we solved racism in the nine twenties. Here,
It's just like there's a lot of yeah, every like

(44:14):
almost everything about the production of this movie is a
is a very bad look. Yeah, for sure, some of
the sequences are pretty though. Can we talk a little
bit more about the love story component of it? So
we already kind of hinted at this, but this is
another example of a love story that starts with a
man negging and undermining a woman. Uh, he first says like, oh,

(44:40):
I thought you were a princess but you're just a waitress.
Then he calls her a kill joy, a stick in
the mud who doesn't know how to have fun, and
then moments later they are suddenly in love. Like I
don't know where this comes from. He's also like the
slimiest dude. And I'm not talking about like the frog
trap the mucus. The mucus plot point. I was like,

(45:03):
are you serious or at the Antiana is like, actually
it's Lucus, Like what, yeah, yeah, he's actually he's such
an asshole for sure. And it's interesting too, like throughout
the movie, like in regards to him, they keep talking
about like women are going to hold you down, like
when he's at the shadow Man the shadow Man is

(45:25):
like he's like, oh, if you get a wife, you
won't be able to live your life or something like that.
It's it's frustrated because it's like his whole character indicates
to young people watching the movie that you can have
all the ambition in the world, you can get seven
percent of the way there, but you still need a

(45:46):
man with resources negging you to achieve anything. And then
another thing is that when Navine mistakes Tiana for being
a princess, she clears it up right away, and she's like, no,
I'm not a princess. I'm a waitress. If the genders
had been swapped and it was the woman mistaking the
man for being a prince, I feel like it almost

(46:07):
certainly would have been a story about him lying to
her for the whole movie and being like, yes, I
am my prince who's also a frog um. And I'm
not saying that, like all men are liars, and I'm
not saying that women never lie, but so many movies
are about a man lying to a woman and not
coming clean until the very end. So I guess I

(46:29):
liked that, you know, Tiana was like, no, I'm not
the person you think I am. Tiana is she's the best.
She's honest, and she's nice and she works hard. And
also there's a joke where it's implied that frog Navine
tries to have sex with frog Tianna when they're like
hiding in the stump from the alligators. He's like, well,

(46:52):
we could get cozy, and then she's like get away
from me, and it's like you're trying to funk when
you're a frog. It just I feel like there's so
many like you could do a drinking game about all
the times he's mentioned women in the thing where he's like, oh,
I've dated thousands of girls, and there's a boy. He

(47:13):
has a boy, I mean, and and a lot of
a lot of Disney princess I mean, at least he has.
He has more of a personality than many Disney princes do,
but um, his personaliz is bad so that I also
don't even know. Like it's interesting because I feel like
in the past whatever twenty years, Disney princess have been
imbued with personality more and more frequently, which is good

(47:37):
in one way, but in another way, you're like, well,
what if we give the you know, princess more personality
and more things to do instead of being like, we
have to know this man's interior life. Like I don't,
I don't know. I don't feel any particular way about it.
But it is interesting. Also there was like like you said,
like I don't understand why she fell in love with him,

(47:57):
Like there was they didn't have he like ja, she
seemed like okay about jazz, Like she didn't seem obsessed,
she wasn't like super into yeah yeah, and then she
like taught him how to like and then she was like,
now I love him. It's well, they comes out of nowhere.
I feel like where they tried to set that up
and it just doesn't work, and it comes off a
little like is at the beginning when she's serving Charlotte

(48:21):
and Big Daddy also Big Daddy Jesus where she says, like,
the way to a man's heart is through his stomach.
So I feel like we're supposed to connect the dots
of like when she cooks for him because woman, she
realizes that she loves him. Right, That didn't track at all.
I don't follow the logic there. Also, did you catch

(48:43):
the part where when he's trying to propose to her,
I guess while they're still frogs, He says, you could
not be more different. You're practically one of the guys
A k A. You're not like the other girls, says it,
and she's like, according to this movie, that's she is
not like because she's the girls hate her or are

(49:06):
like lobotomized like they did to Charlotte. God, everyone has
just done a disservice. Yeah, um, we got to take
another quick break, but we'll come right back. Where shall
we go from here? Oh? Let me see. Um, well,
shall we talk about the representation of voodoo in the film. Yeah, yeah,

(49:30):
let's do it. So I did a little bit of research.
I found a piece from the Huffington's post entitled great
Source entitled what is Voodoo Understanding a Misunderstood Religion by
samya Aria hass I probably mispronounced most of that, but

(49:53):
she is a writer and also a priestess of both
Hinduism and Voodoo, which, um, the preferred spelling of voodoo
is v O d o you for just anyone who's curious.
The quotes that I will share from this piece only
really scratched the surface of what there is to know
about the Voodoo religion. But I do have a few

(50:15):
quotes that I found to be the most relevant to
our discussion. Starting with quote, Voodoo isn't accurately portrayed in
most movies, TV shows, and books. Voodoo isn't a cult,
black magic, or devil worship. People who practice voodoo are
not witch doctors, sorcerers, or occultists. Voodoo isn't a practice

(50:36):
intended to hurt or control others. Most voodooists have never
seen a voodoo doll, unless, like you, they saw it
in a movie, Voodoo isn't morbid or violent end quote. Um.
So the reason all this is relevant is because the
character of Dr Facilier is framed as being I don't
even know if he's like a voodoo I don't know exactly,

(51:00):
but he participates in this Hollywood Disney version of voodoo. Yes,
And interestingly, I feel like they try to contextualize their
interpretation of voodoo. They also make it directly correlate to
Christianity by indicating that there's something having to do with
the devil and like demonic experience, which is not even

(51:22):
a part of this, but they I feel like Disney
almost makes the assumption like we're going to have to
talk to people on a Christian level, so we have
to connect these two things that are not related. Right.
The way that voodoo is depicted in this movie and
many others is that it's like this scary CULTI mystical,

(51:44):
but in like a nefarious mysticism way, And that's not
what it is. I've got another few quotes from this author. Quote,
racism clouds our view of voodoo. It is rooted in
slavery and intricately connected to this hemisphere's political and social evolution.
Voodoo was first practiced in America and the Caribbean by

(52:06):
slaves of African descent, whose culture was both feared and ridiculed.
Slaves were not considered fully human, their religion was dismissed
as superstition, their priests were denigrated as witch doctors, their
gods and spirits were denounced as evil end quote um,
which explains a lot of why voodoo is depicted the
way it is in media, and it has everything to

(52:28):
do with racism. Believe it or not. Go figure Uh yeah,
I I did a little research on this as well,
and it basically does very clearly boils down to racism,
specifically a very American kind of racism that's very specific
to this region um where Louisiana. Voodoo is something that's

(52:49):
very commonly cited. And it's like there's been from what
I can tell, and if any listeners are out there
that have seen a positive, measured depiction of voodoo in
popular culture, it doesn't seem like it's happened. And there's
also been. There was a whole season of American Horror Story.
I don't watch that show, but there's a lot written
on how there was an entire season that hinged on

(53:11):
this very racist view of Louisiana voodoo um and what
it boils down to is um. I think we've had
similar conversations about Disney villains in this regard, where a
lot of Disney villains are coded women in stem with
women with power and this is kind of an an

(53:31):
analog for black people with power and making it as
villainous and threatening as possible. Uh So, it's it's not
only like a very specific type of racism that has
never really been challenged in popular media yet, but it
also like fits right into it. It's like, just based

(53:53):
on Disney's history, it makes a lot of sense that
they would go for this because that's how they treat
like some of their white of Just like, how can
we make power that isn't big daddy like the big
daddies of the world. How can we make it threatening
and evil and villainous? And Yeah, that's a very interesting

(54:13):
point because like even on the flip side, like you
have Mama Odie and she's still like very cartoonish. We
don't actually see like none of her magic actually helps.
It's kind of just like, yeah, it's just like good
luck kids, Dig deep. That was the closest I could
get to be. I mean, I'm like, well, I guess
that there is an example of a black character with

(54:34):
magic who is using it for good. It's still completely
misunderstands everything, but at least it isn't painting the company.
But then it's like, yeah, you're right, she doesn't do
she doesn't really her magic doesn't work. Yeah, and she's
also like not like she she's kind of senile. Yeah,
they make her out. Does not seem super like competent,
I guess, and not particularly I mean clearly not particularly

(54:56):
good at what she does, because what she does doesn't
really affect the plot until the end, where it suddenly does.
She's just like, uh, just fucking fall in love and
then you'll get everything you want. High magic is the
magic of a head rolla. Just like that's not a thing. Yeah.
So so it is complete misunderstanding. It could have been

(55:17):
her song could have been like shared do you believe?
Oh it's it's so it's so frustrating, and I mean,
like Disney has never set something in the American South
and had it gone well, ever, like there there's also
a lot written about this movie comparing it, I mean
with less egregiousness, but still with some of the same

(55:37):
themes that people are very critical of. Uh In Song
of the South, which is like the only Disney movie
that's ever been truly buried, and there's actually past guest
of the show Carein a Longworth did a great um
I think like five or six part series on like
the history and the legacy of that movie on her
podcast you must remember this. It's really good, but basically
because most of us haven't really seen that movie, and

(56:00):
with good reason, that takes place in the American South
and has the similar vibe that we have with Tiana's
family and Charlotte's family, where it's like, yes, the white
people are very much in control, the black people in
the story are mostly working for them, but there's no
problem here. Everything's fine. And so a lot of writers
at the time of this movie's released interpreted this, I

(56:21):
think pretty correctly as an updated version of this world
that never had like like the most Disney approach to racism,
and they're like, but it didn't really happen, like because
like that relationship, especially between Tiana and Charlotte, that dynamic
is so bizarre because they seem to be pretty good friends.

(56:44):
But like Charlotte seems to be completely blissfully ignorant of
any of Tiana's struggles. And then she also seems to
treat Tiana as like someone who works for her and
serves her rather than like a friend in in an
equal like Tiana wasn't even invited to the ball as
a guest. Like, yeah, also, can we just quickly sorry side,

(57:07):
can we just talk about this scene when she gives
Tiana the dress and she she fixes her girls and
like puts them up. And I was like Disney usually
never acknowledges like they might have, but never like she was.
Just every Disney princess has like a uni boob. They're like,
this is just a feminine area. That is true. Their

(57:29):
their friendship is I mean, outside of the historical context
we've already discussed, it's a bummer because it's like they
seem to be very close friends, but really yeah, like
Tiana is very attentive to Charlotte's needs. Charlotte does things
for Tiana, but really only when it serves herself. Um.
And I also think that Charlotte's character is kind of

(57:50):
very like Mired in Tropes as well, where it's like
kind of this failed attempt for Disney to comment on itself,
I think by doubling down on like at misogynist tropes
of like all she wants is marriage. Look at how
stupid she is. This is all she cares about, and
like that doesn't help anything either. Also, wasn't it so
gross in the end when Charlotte is like, I didn't

(58:12):
know Prince Navide had a brother and it's six year old,
and she goes, she goes, well, I waited, you know,
for one Prince, I could wait for I'm not quoting
it directly, but she's like, I can't wait for you
to be legal so I can have sex with you.
Like this gives in the first grade there, that was
that was getting some real Jacob from Twilight vibes. She

(58:36):
printed on, Yeah, that was the only thing in the
movie that I mean, well that's not true. A lot
of things in this movie that you're like no, but
like the only thing that I was like, this is
just this is bald face like madness, um, other than
killing the killing the bug and sending the bug to

(58:56):
Star Heaven. So so, I mean, I I don't really
have much to say about Charlotte outside of like it
seemed like they were trying to make a commentary on
the criticisms of past Disney princesses of like why do
they want to be in love so bad? Why don't
they have any dreams outside of this? And instead they
just doubled down on it and made a mockery of it.

(59:16):
And what purpose did that serve? It didn't serve any
narrative purpose, Like they just were like women her, especially
because it's like her goal that she's friend was having
is like she just wants to marry a rich a prince.
She's already rich. She just wants I guess, the status
of being a princess. But like boiled down, it's like

(59:37):
she just wants to be married, and that's seen as
something that's like what a fucking idiot for just wanting that.
But then on the other side of things, they're like, well, Tiana,
your dreams, I mean, good for you for having them,
I guess, but really all you need is love. So
bithology of this movie all women are stupid. Yeah, it's
it's a lose lose situation. Also, how fast that Charlotte

(01:00:00):
like agreed to me, Like as soon as he proposed
he was like, I gotta go make plans, and I mean,
Tianna seems to be like living in a more modern
version of the world of like you just met him,
and Charlotte's living in another version of the world where
she's like, yeah, so we're getting married and you're just
like what is And I don't know. Also heard her

(01:00:21):
dad have like it seemed like they had no concept
of money, Like they just were handing out hundred dollar
bills to people, being like this will cover it because
he does it to the newspaper boy, and then she
does it to Tiana and for the beignets, And I
was like, Tiana, why didn't you get on these beignets earlier?
It seems like you could have he could have, Just
like why didn't Charlotte give Tiana a business loan? Because

(01:00:42):
their friends like I don't understand, like, and I feel
like that just plays more into the like they weren't racist.
They were just these bumbling duphaces of like, yeah, John
Goodman trips and a million dollars falls out. It's not
that he was withholding money from anyone if that, he
just she just didn't see them. He just Also Charlotte

(01:01:05):
was like mean to like some random boy, Like in
the thing she just said to him, she said, if
I say later, that means never loser. Right, I don't.
I don't, Like, I do understand why they're doing it,
but it just makes you even more So. I think
that Charlotte is I mean, she's she's not just none

(01:01:26):
of the female characters are well now. The characters are
well reading. Which brings me to the Animal Friends. Um,
I think that there's a big section of this movie
that nothing happens in basically the second that Tiana becomes
a frog, nothing happens for a very long time. Uh,
They're just kind of hopping around the bio. It's it's like,
it's beautiful. The animation is great, but I would argue

(01:01:48):
that most of the animal friends that they meet in
this long stretch of nothingness are admired in tropes that
are either of like poor people or black people. And
then it just it just gets like, why are we
doing this? I think that Raymond the firefly who was killed,
is the worst example of this. Were the way that

(01:02:11):
he's animated, the way that he's stylized. He's given like
a Cajun accent, right, and then his teeth are all
fucked up, Like I feel like there's a lot of
stereotypes as particularly of like poor people in the South.
We also see humans who are supposed to be poor
in the South like like like, oh, when you don't
have money, you just are falling all the time, like,

(01:02:33):
but also the rich people are following, and you're like,
who does anything here? She's the one holding down the city,
the only person who can do a fucking thing in
this town. It's ridiculars, I mean, but it's like, I
think that this is another through line in Disney movies
of even because like I love animation so much, and

(01:02:53):
it's people telling themselves so easily in animation, where like
the people you're supposed to care about are drawn to
be you know, Western beauty standard hot people, and the
people who you are not supposed to who are a
joke are drawn very differently. And that applies to other
I mean that the way that people are like Belle
looks very different than everyone in the French town, and

(01:03:16):
they're drawn like cartoons. They're like they're they are not
drawn to be sexy princesses, and the way that they
drew like people who didn't have as much money, the
way that they drew the animal friends who were supposed
to be stand ins for other trupes. It's just ridiculous. Yeah.
It also also to add to the firefly thing, I
thought it was really interesting that the reason he loves

(01:03:38):
Evangeline the stars because she's so bright, like it's brittain beautiful.
She doesn't talk, and he's like, she's shy, but I
love her. And it's like, oh, I didn't even think
of that. That was like the first thing I picked
up on. I was like, I was like, she you
don't know who what her personality is because she's a star,
and yet you love her. Oh my world, like feminie,

(01:04:00):
this icon Evangeline what I kind of like, they're god feminist.
I mean, we don't know her story, another woman robbed
of a coherent plot. And then also when when Ray
dies and becomes a star next to her, like what
if she didn't want that? She never got to speak,
she didn't consent to Ray the star. Let's be honest,

(01:04:20):
it was just another star. The bug died. The bug
dies like the full dead. No, he's a start. What
if I died on this? Rose dies like the end
of Titanic. Rose falls asleep and has a dream. At
the end of Titanic, she does not dies what I meant,
she dies, But but you know who else dies? Ray

(01:04:42):
and he doesn't come back as anything. He just dies.
He stepped on by the villain and he dies. And
why did he do that? It? Also yeah, it just yeah,
it was it was unnecessary death. Also, but I do
like what you said about Philander dying, just like, have
you got harpoons in the third act of the movie

(01:05:03):
and they're like, oh, no, Ursula harpooned flounder and then
Flounder They're like, oh, but look he's up, he's the
sun now, No, he's not harpooned. Also, did you notice
how like we were touching on the like animation a
little bit and like the design when they're frogs. I

(01:05:24):
feel like Tiana, they're still designing frog Tiana as like
Western beauty standard frog because she's like, yeah, visibly much
thinner then Navine frog. So it's like, what do you
They found a way to make the frog fam they
fam I mean, and they do that thing that there's

(01:05:45):
like all those great Anita Sarkisian videos about where they
like basically gave her the like miss pac Man treatment.
Where it's like she's a slender, curvy frog with long
eyelashes and you're like, it's a frog, but the fucking frog. Um. Yeah,
they just they just really find ways to do Tiana
and every female character dirty in every way. We sort

(01:06:06):
of discussed this already, but the way that her relationship
with her mother is treated is like just again takes
place in this void where the mother is allowed to live,
but all she does is neg her daughter or talk
about the father like there's no the father is still
the driving influence in Tiana's life. It was it was

(01:06:28):
like she didn't have a dream of her own. It
was like her dad's dream. And then she gave her
dad's dream up so that she could have the dream
with the v right, I give up on her dad's vision.
It's so, I mean I like it. Terrence Howard is
the dad, and the dad Dad is like such a
lovely character. But but yeah, she's just carrying out her
father's vision. And then yeah, I mean, yeah, like I

(01:06:50):
agree with you. Like the dad does say like some
great things where he's like, don't just wish like actually
be in action. He wants her to be somebody who
does something in the town, and it's not just which
is then nothing for there's a lot of Disney dads
that are like, you don't you can't do anything, so
that again it's like a little subversion. But then also
another character stuff or says with the results of that subversion,

(01:07:13):
I still I love Tiana. I just it's so I
feel like, Okay, correct me, if I'm right. I feel
like the general vibe around Tiana is that we all
love her, and we all wanted better for her, yes,
a hundred percent. Like I did not want her to
marry a mediocreman, and that's what she did. Right. I'm glad.
I mean, I'm glad that she got her beautiful restaurant,

(01:07:35):
don't I don't know. I mean this this fucking movie
ignores the fact that women just got the right to vote.
Maybe depending on when in the like, you're just just
like because if this was like set current day, you know,
because like n he like explains like when they're in
the when she's helping him mince the thing, He's like, oh,
I lived with all these servants. I don't know how
to do anything. And it's like, you know, if this

(01:07:59):
was like Wney should be helping him fill out of
W four right, it's uh there there's also I mean,
if you go beyond just the actual movie itself, it's
really frustrating that, you know, any time that there is
especially in a company like Disney, anytime that there is

(01:08:21):
a protagonist that isn't like a thin white someone, there's
so much more writing on the production's success. Um, then
if there's a so so Disney princess movie that's like,
you know whatever, a French white girl and it does okay,
people were like, whatever, we'll make another. It's fine. But
there was so much pressure put on this movie that

(01:08:43):
was in some ways. I mean, it was successful, it
made its money back and then some, but it wasn't
the gigantic smash hit that they wanted, which is a
great excuse for people who don't want black leads and
movies to not make movies anymore. When the problem was
that they wrote an incoherent movie that liked like it's
so it's like you wrote a bad movie. That's why

(01:09:04):
it didn't make as much money as you wanted. You
also released it the week but like at the same
time as Avatar. That's another reason that it didn't do.
And the marketing around this movie. I mean there's some
isolated examples of like some pretty like racist marketing of
of this movie and the way it was marketed to
young girls. I mean it was sexist and racist, it
was just everything because men be marketing shit. Uh and

(01:09:28):
it's just and and even as recently as two years ago, um,
when Ralph Breaks the Internet came out, there's that scene
where all the princesses show up and they're like blah
blah blah meta commentary, and you're like, fucking whatever. But
in the original trailer they had like lightened Tiana's skin
and changed her facial structure to hair. Yeah, and and

(01:09:50):
then people were like, um, excuse me. And then they're like, oh, sorry,
we thought we could get away with it. Sorry, and
then they changed her crazy. I remember that they did that.
I can't remember which actors, but they did that on
like a magazine cover where they like lightning and like
a real life person. I can't remember who. It was
fucking ridiculous. And there there are also stories from two

(01:10:12):
thousand nine, when you know, it's always this big deal
when princess is added to official canon, because that is
like a thing, and this is very granular, but Disney
princess merch sells like fucking hotcakes. It's back Pagas's lunch boxes,
as t shirts, as everything. But just because you're a
Disney princess, doesn't mean that you're on the merch, right,

(01:10:34):
So Mulan is often not on the merch. Pocahon's is
almost never on the merchants, and so Tianna. They were
basically like, guess what Tiana is going to be on
the merch, which is like, whoo, she should be on
the merch. So they said to put on the merch.
But then there were all these things that have happened
to multiple Disney princesses, but it was especially egregious with Tiana,

(01:10:57):
where they changed the color of hers in by a
little bit, they changed the structure of her face just
to make it quote unquote fit in with the merch.
And just, I mean, this happens every time, Like it's
just ridiculous. It's just it's just such a bummer that
the this could have been such a monument I mean
it is a monumental movie. The fact that it's it's

(01:11:19):
features the first black Disney animated princess. The movie barely
makes sense. The plot is either not much as happening,
or what's happening is too convoluted, Like I want to
like it so much more than I do. Well, it's
just like it's a behind the scenes problem. They didn't

(01:11:41):
hire the people who needed to be hired for this
movie to be coherent or good. Exactly. No, it definitely
like the one good thing is we all loved Tianna.
We love Tianna. But other than that, other than that,
yike yeike yaike um, there's a part of me that

(01:12:04):
just like wants Tiana to get a redo. I'm like,
can we can we just do something for her? Can
we do something for Tianna? She didn't deserve to have
to be in this movie, right, I know? Also worth
mentioning the like queer coding of the villain Dr Facilier.
It happens, and well there weren't enough tropes associated with

(01:12:26):
that character already, so well, yeah, we talk a lot
about this concept on various other Disney movies, so you know,
check out those episodes for more, but it's definitely present here.
I love the part where big Daddy le Buff shoves
up Ben his daughter's mouth. No, you know, like Dad's

(01:12:54):
do And that's oh, I meant to say that earlier.
That's like another troupe on top of a troupe on
top of a trope for Charlotte of like dumb woman
obsessed with daddy that I'm like, listen, I'm smart and
I'm obsessed with my dad. We exist, We're out there.
To me, the only really moment I could identify as

(01:13:15):
the movie acknowledging race at all, And this isn't even
an example of a time that it does it directly,
but I feel like it's implied. Where the white real
estate agents tell Tianna when she gets out bid for
the restaurant property, they say, a woman of your background,

(01:13:36):
you're better off where you're at. And yeah, that's the
only time that I noticed that this movie acknowledges like
her race or her background at all. But it's like, again,
just that one tiny moment. It's not explicit, so you
don't necessarily know exactly what they're implying. Yeah, it's just

(01:13:59):
like you didn't you didn't even take step one. There
were some and it's like, I mean, I'm not gonna
use too much time getting super into it. There's a
writer named Serena McCoy. Gregory who wrote about this movie
in depth and found some references to the racial politics
of this specific area at the specific time. But they're

(01:14:21):
so small that it's like no one would have known.
I'll just read quick quote. Most of so it has
to do with the masquerade ball and who's allowed to
wear masks and who isn't. I guess was a law
at this time. Quote. Most of the attendees are costumed
to mask, with noted exceptions of Charlotte and Eli and
the black attendees. The band performers in Tiana are not masked,

(01:14:44):
reflecting local law that prohibited blocks from covering their faces.
At the end of the scene, we realized that Dr
Facilier has broken with custom and law hiding behind a
white Janus faced mask. So apparently they referenced this very
specific but it's like that also, I also am like
that could have been an accident. Uh. But yeah, I

(01:15:07):
don't know the the any attempt to express I mean,
Disney is never going to try to express realism. But
if they're that committed to not expressing realism, why put
it here? Like it's just yeah, really bizarre. I mean,
I do want to wanna shout out to Rob Edwards,
the black screenwriter of the three, the other two being

(01:15:29):
um Ron Clements and John Musker, who are also the directors.
So because there's like at least one black person involved
in the production of this movie, even though it doesn't
seem like a lot of stuff got through. But he also,
I didn't realize this wrote one of my what I
think is a very underrated Disney movie, which is Treasure Planet.
Oh you wrote Treasure Planet. I liked Treasure Planet. No

(01:15:52):
one else like Treasure Planet. It was a problem. I've
seen it. Oh it's okay. First of all, for someone
who hates steampunk, I like all steam things. So it's
like steampunk Treasure Island. And like Jim what's his name
has like a buzz cut and bangs, remember the trailers,
and he can fly. It's good. But anyways, shout out

(01:16:15):
to Rob Edwards, um and I wish he could have
like written this movie by himself instead of you know,
I have a black woman rite this movie. I have
a black woman direct this movie. That's I mean. And
and it's still like women much less Black women are
still like not given access to animation in particular. And

(01:16:36):
it's just I read that Oprah in addition to being
cast as the voice of the mother, was also brought
on as like a technical consultant, but only after they'd
already received criticism for the movie being racist, so they
pulled the hail Oprah and which again is just like
it's just so disingenuous of like, yeah, we'll hire a

(01:16:57):
black woman on this story about a black woman, but
only after you've been yelled at. It's like, wouldn't it
just serve the production of whatever? Animation? There's not a
lot of women just in general. Sure, Like it's it's
very uh because yeah, I used to I used to work.
I used to work in animation, like not in the

(01:17:19):
drawing aspect. I used to work more in like dealing
with the day to day logistics of like voiceover people.
So it actually is funny. I've worked with severally actors
in the movie that are very nice and very sweet.
But yeah, you don't see you have like a few
women who are like up at like the decision making level,
but not so many, you know. So hopefully as I

(01:17:41):
exited animation, there's like more people coming to the top,
so hopefully they will continue. Yeah, let's hope. So, I
mean it's still like the two women that I'm aware
of that have directed Disney animated productions, they're both white women.
Ones Jennifer Lee, who I think has gotten promoted pretty
high up in Disney animation, which is good. She co

(01:18:02):
directed Frozen because you gotta have a boy with you,
And then Brenda Chapman, who directed Uh, well that got complicated,
didn't it? Listen to our brave episode? Yeah, she did
direct it, but she is again credited as a co
director with a man. Because people get nervous when women

(01:18:25):
have too much power of doing anything. They're like, oh,
we gotta get someone name mark in here. I believe.
Don't quote me on this. I believe though, that Pixar
does have like one person of color. That's a director
that did like a short film. Oh is it the
one fun? What's it called? Uh? I think it had
something to do with like food. Yes, yeah, I think

(01:18:47):
I think that's it. Does this movie pass the back
tail test? Yes? Yes, um few times definitely. Between Tiana
and her mom, Um, you doora talk about you know,
opening up the restaurant and all that stung children, grandchildren,
It barely passed. But then they that's followed by them

(01:19:11):
talking about Tianna's dad, and then a hypothetical prince charming. Um,
do any conversations between Charlotte and Tianna passed? Because I
feel like a lot of them are about men and princes.
And I caught a few two line exchanges, but it
doesn't pass by the margin you would want it to write.
And then I was like, does her talking to Evangeline
count Evangeline shimmers? Yes, so that is her that was

(01:19:37):
in the script in Shimmers. In response, Um, I mean
the women in this movie are are very much outnumbered
by male characters. Um, which is again very And then
Mama Odi doesn't I don't know if any of those
I feel like most of those conversations are still about
like it's like the love interest exactly right. Like I

(01:19:58):
feel like almost everything Mama Odi says is the subtext
of like head rolla We'll change your life or maybe
the Tapasco sauce thing that that I mean maybe Again,
it's like all the passes are quick. They're all like
they're very very quick, and it's against like so not
unusual for in a princess movie for the like female

(01:20:20):
characters to be vastly outnumbered all the animals we meet
are male identified animals. They're let's rate it on our
nipple scale, um zero to five nipples based on its
representation of women. UM. I know this is such an
important movie to like young black girls and other the

(01:20:44):
world in the world, but it really subscribes to a
lot of weird tropes and stereotypes between uh, you know,
weird racial stereotypes. This movie doesn't like fat people. This
movie doesn't like poor people. This movie doesn't like any
dreams or this movie really mishandles what the religion of

(01:21:06):
voodoo is. You know, it's got a lot of problems,
but it is important. Representative, as we always talk about,
like representation and inclusion and progress in general, is a
slow process that has to start somewhere, and usually the
place that it starts is not necessarily very good or

(01:21:29):
very nuanced, but it's a stepping stone for other more nuanced,
more inclusive and progressive things to be made from there,
usually when the first thing that's not very nuanced proves
to be financially successful, which this movie was. But yes,
we've had better representation, not necessarily of like black women

(01:21:54):
royalty in much cinema, but the fact that this is
like the first Black Disney Princess is not nothing. The
fact that it was made almost exclusively by white men
is not the choice that should have been made, as
we've talked about. So there's all these factors. I don't
know what nipple rating to give it. Is it like

(01:22:16):
a two and a half is it's kind of right
down the middle. I'm giving it. Uh uh, I'm between
the one and half and it too. I think that,
like the behind the scenes representation in this movie is
so pissed poor and Tiana, Like Tiana is the wind,
Trianna is the win. Tiana is everything that is good

(01:22:37):
about this movie is Tianna in the first half hour,
right and not Yeah, because she's a fucking frog. There's
not enough. It's not enough. I'll give it. I'll give
it one and a half nipples one for Tianna and
a half because it was the first black But other
than that, that's that's it everything. I'm like you, really,
there's no other character with redeeming progressive anything. Okay, I'll

(01:22:58):
follow your lead, Lexi into one and a half. One
and a half. Yeah, cool, Well do better world. Well,
these directors, these directors did direct Mahanna. You know a
few years later, So not that that's who should have directed.
Marianna is a more progressive text. The world is a

(01:23:20):
confusing place. Um, Lexie, thank you so much for me,
Thank you for having Where can we Where can we
find you online? Um at smile Alexei on everything. So
but Lexi has spelled l e x i E wonderful
and then go see the best. Yes, yeah, thank you.
You can follow us on social media at becktel Cast, Twitter,

(01:23:40):
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(01:24:05):
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(01:24:25):
in the Prodcast