The Secret Life of Bees with Maya Williams

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlyn, biz.

Speaker 4 (00:20):
Wha, it's me a secret b wait a second with
a secret life?

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Is that a metaphor for something? I bet it is.

Speaker 5 (00:29):
I honestly thought you were going to take a completely
different route.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
Wait what did you think I was going?

Speaker 5 (00:34):
Oh goodness, I thought you were gonna go like the
darker route with like with like t ray don't ask
me why.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
No, I wait, like that guy. I mean, we'll talk
about it, but.

Speaker 5 (00:48):
We'll talk about it.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Also, the fact that he's played by real life piece
of shit Paul Bettany or just like, oh wait, I
don't know about oh my, he's I mean, short story,
we'll tell you the show is in a second. But
he's Johnny Depp's best friend. And there was I was
like following that case very closely two years ago now,

(01:11):
and yeah, there's a lot of texts between him and
Johnny Depp that came up in court that were sort
of Paul Bettany being like, I agree, she's horrible and
like and much worse. So you know, this is your
public bulletin to.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
Paul Bettany and Nate Parker suck.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
Yeah, we talked about Nate Parker on the last episode
that you were on four.

Speaker 5 (01:33):
It's true.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Also Nate Parker is playing I think a horrible character too.
Like they're both at very least the two real life
bad men in this movie also play bad men in
the movie I don't know two thousand and eight. I
don't know. Yeah, we'll talk about it.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
They're telling on themselves. I think in their performances.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
They're like I can relate.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Caitlin Durda, my.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where
we take a closer look at your favorite movies using
an intersectional feminist lens. And today we have I just
want to get I mean, we already sort of started
this breeze. Yeah, let's bring our guess. Is this her
third fourth appearance? I can't even third? My gosh, wow.

Speaker 5 (02:20):
Thank you ell so much for that. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Pat Trick hat Trick Hat trick. We've done it.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
So the movie is The Secret Life of Bees. The
guest is They were the seventh Poet Laureate of Portland, Maine.
You can check out their poetry collections Judas and Suicide,
Refused a Second Date, and What's So Wrong with a
Pity Party?

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
You can also see their work in LGBTQ, Nation, Stylist,
and Full Stop, as well as interviews in Black Girl Nerds.
And you've heard her on our episodes on Perks of
Being a Wallflower and Beyond the Lights. It's Maya Williams.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Welcome.

Speaker 5 (03:00):
Thank you for having me back, and thank you all
for your patients, for how there's always a crappy masculine
presenting person.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
In the movies we have, I mean, for your patients.
Oh god, it is kind of inevitable. Yeah, unfortunately.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
Yeah, but every single.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
One I know in three very different movies too.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:22):
Tell us about your relationship with Secret Life of Bees.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:27):
I read The Secret Life of Bees in the eighth
grade after I saw it in the movies with my family,
and I remember I remember this being like a comfort
movie at some point, and then I revisited it when
my first book came out because of its analysis on
like religion and black communities and suicidality, and I had

(03:49):
the opportunity to talk about it on the podcast Black
Girl Film Podcast. I am not a black girl, but
I will always support Black girls as a former black girl,
and so there's some things that I'll definitely repeat from today.
But I'm especially excited to talk about the religious landscape

(04:09):
from this book because I have book commentary and film
commentary notes to get. We're back on commentary's baby.

Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah nice, So you have read the book? I have, Yeah,
good to know because I have not, but I have
read the Yeah. We would never read a book on
this podcast. As we've said, I did read the Wikipedia synopsis.
So I feel so you've been very prepared to discuss
I mean, I think Mayo Wee can agree they basically

(04:37):
read the book.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Proud of you, Jamie.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
What about you? What's your relationship with the movie?

Speaker 3 (04:47):
I also don't have a relationship really with this at all.
I was like, where do I remember this title? From
the airport? This was like a major Like this book
probably to this day is like at the airport. It's
at the airport, it's upfront, and you're just like someday
I'm gonna know what happens in these books that are

(05:08):
at the airport. And today was the day I learned
about what happened in this book that's at the airport.
I don't know, I'm very excited to discuss it. I
have like some interesting I'm excited to talk about, like
movies of this era too, because I feel like there
are two movies that and I don't mean to like compare,
I mean that have like a similar through line of

(05:31):
that came out within a couple of years of each other.
That are all movies that take place in the civil
rights era that I believe are all based on source
material by white writers that are ultimately somehow about white
teenage girls. I was also thinking of a movie I love,
but Harspray Very Guilty of This and The Help, which

(05:51):
I haven't seen but I double checked. So this was
very much like something that was in media at this time,
and I was kind I mean, I was torn because
I think the performances in this movie are really lovely
and I am not immune to the powers of baby
Dakota Fanning. I think like that scene with her at
the end is pretty incredible for a thirteen year old,

(06:13):
but it just it just felt like I don't know. Ultimately,
I was like, why is this movie about her? Like
it was just I don't know.

Speaker 5 (06:21):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, I was like, Jennifer Hudson just won an oscar
and where and she disappears for half the movie? Like
make it make sense? And I'm excited to talk about
the production of this movie because I was, I mean like,
I mean, this is the second Gina Prince Bythwood movie
we've covered with Maya, but I think the fourth on
the show overall, because we've also done there with a
Woman King and love and basketball. Oh right, yes, yes, yes,

(06:45):
So this was this was not my favorite of hers,
and I was also like, I wonder what And then
I looked into like why there was an eight year
gap between her first and her second movie. I think
that there's a lot to say and I did a
little bit of research there. So I'm excited to talk
about like the context of how this film came together.
But yeah, I don't know. I was like a little

(07:06):
conflicted because there were some scenes, in some moments in
this movie that really got me. And I think if
I saw it when it came out I would it
would have also been a comfort movie.

Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah. I hadn't seen this movie before. I hadn't read
the book, as I said, so this was my first.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
But you read the Wikipedia page, but I read the
log it on Goodreads. You did it.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
It's true. I'm an academic, I'm a scholar. I'm a
genius for having done that. And yeah, I wasn't totally
sure what to expect. And because of how my brain works,
when I hear the title of this movie, I confuse
it with Akila and the b Oh.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
I was confusing it with a Secret Life of Pets.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
I mean, yes, that too, Okay.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
Brittany from the Black Girl Film podcast also said that, like, like,
oh no, it's not pet.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
It's a different movie. And now I know that.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
We still haven't covered Aequila in the Bee No, but
we should. There will come a day.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yes, so I was kind of confusing Secret Life of
Bees with that movie, but now I know the difference
and Secret.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Life of the American Teenager. Like, oh yeah, anyways.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
True, anything with the title the Secret blank blank blank,
if it doesn't have to do with pets, as you
pointed out, Jamie, like it has to like it has
to do with something about like some struggle with womanhood
or girlhood.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Oh that's true.

Speaker 4 (08:38):
I mean a woman's heart is a deep ocean of secrets.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
The secret life of Titanic. Oh yeah, that's really interesting.
I hadn't ever connected that, but you're totally right, that's bizarre.
I also we this is also my earlier this week
we covered b movie, so.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
We've just excited for that episode.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Is on the brain this week. And I also, I mean,
I can't decide if I am being overly like I
wish the movie just said this, but I'm like, bees
are a matriarchy. The community in this movie is a matriarchy.
Why aren't we talking more about it?

Speaker 5 (09:15):
The book is more explicit about it, and like, okay,
and in the commentary they talk about how like, oh,
this is one of the few film sets where we
got to work with a bunch of women not only
on camera but behind the camera. But but yeah, in
the book there are all these like epigraphs about about
the matriarchy of bees and how like you don't need

(09:36):
the male bees until you need to reproduce and stuff
like that.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah that's like, yeah, the I mean we were talking
about it the other day, like the male bees, you know,
fuck and then their dicks explode and then they're gone,
and you're.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
Like, yeah, they die, all right, and they serve that
one purpose.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
How I feel anyways. Yes, okay, so we're all kind
of coming from slightly different places here. Yeah, I'm excited
to talk about it.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
There's lots to talk about. Let's take a quick break
and then we'll come back for the recap. B We're back.
W Yeah, I'll watch out.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Well, I mean, at least, here's what I'll say for
Secret Life of Bees. It is the best movie about
bees we've covered this.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
Week, and I believe it.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah, at least. Uh, you know, I have gripes with
this movie, but it is not about a capitalist, patriarchal
conception of bees starring a zionist bee. So you know,
not a high bar to clear, but you know, we're.

Speaker 4 (10:49):
The saying, yeah, this one is far better at least. Okay,
So here's the recap of Secret Life of Bees. I'll
place a content warning at the top here for anti
black racism and violence, child abuse, domestic abuse, and suicide
and suicidal ideation. So we open on a scene where

(11:11):
a four year old girl, Lily is hiding in a
closet while her father is being abusive to her mother.
A gun is dropped in front of Lily and she
picks it up and shoots it by accident, killing her mother.
We cut to ten years later. It's nineteen sixty four.

(11:33):
Lily is about to turn fourteen. She's played by Dakota Fanning.
She lives on a peach farm with her father t Ray,
played by a piece of shit Paul Bettany, who is
still cold and cruel. For her birthday, all Lily wants
is for him to tell her what her mom was like.

(11:55):
And all he has to say about Lily's mom is
that she was obsessed with saving bugs, and Lily seems
to have the same kind of fascination with insects. Bees
seem to be just kind of like swarming to her
and they're drawn to her.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
I do like the literary concept of being a bug
girl as like a hereditary trait.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yes, yes, true.

Speaker 5 (12:21):
Well with her mom it was cockroaches, and we'll get
into why that is and like and yet.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
With Lily it's bees, Yeah yeah, and roach girl is hardcore.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
I mean, wouldn't be me. I'll say that I do
not like bugs.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
My OCD and bugs are not impatible.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Not a big fan myself, But that night, Lily goes
outside and digs up a box where she keeps some
of her mom's belongings, including an illustration on a small
plaque of wood that depicts a black virgin Mary and
baby Jesus and it says Tiberan on the back, which

(13:04):
is the name of a town in South Carolina where
they are. Tray finds Lily outside at night and reprimands her.
He makes her kneel in dry grits.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
He also thinks that she's been like having sex with
someone too, that's he implied.

Speaker 4 (13:23):
Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah yeah, and so he's, you know,
abusively punishing her. We also meet their housekeeper, Rosaline, played
by Jennifer Hudson of Cat's Fame.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Of course, like Cas Jennifer Hudson, fun fun Jennifer Hudson.
In fact, she stays at the hotel that my fiance
works at. Your fiance, my fiance, and she is very
nice the end.

Speaker 4 (13:53):
Oh yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (13:55):
So President Johnson has just signed the Civil Rights Bill
into law, which makes it easier for black people to vote.
So Rosaline and Lily go into town. So that Rosaline
can register to vote, but on the way, three white
men harass and attack Rosaline, but because of anti black racism,

(14:19):
Rosaline is the one who is arrested. Back home, t
Ray and Lily argue. Tiray tells her that before her
mother died, she had left Lily and that the night
that she was shot, her mother had come back only
to collect the rest of her things before leaving forever,

(14:40):
and Lily refuses to believe this and wants to think
that her mom was coming back to take her with her.
So Lily runs away from home.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
And writes a note that says something like liars like
you sure, rotten Hell.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
I that was like, yeah, I appreciated that. No, and
I was like, good for you.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
I mean, not to keep invoking Titanic, but it's similar
to the note that Rose leaves to cal where she's like,
now you can keep both of us locked in. You're safe.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
I know, but like, but I do like that this
like it also feels so like I don't know, it
just very empowering to see her be like bye dad,
rotten Hell. You're like, whoa fuck? Yeah, because she's right.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Yeah. So she runs away. She goes to the hospital
to collect Rosaline, who is there recovering after having been
beaten before she's sent to jail, so they escape together
and they head to that town of Tiberon. They stop
for some food and Lily sees all of these jars
of honey that have that same label on them that

(15:49):
she's seen before, that same image of the Black Mary
and Jesus that was on the wood in the box
of her mother's belongings, and the shopkeeper explains that a
black woman named August Boatwright makes this brand of honey
and it's the best honey in South Carolina.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
August but the boat right, sisters, is so literary, you're
just like, it's good, good literary names.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
So Lily and Rosaline find August's big pink house amazing,
and they knock on the door and Lily tells August
played by Queen Latifah and her sisters June and May
played by Alicia Keys and Sophie Okonado that they need

(16:41):
a place to stay. But Lily lies and says that
both of her parents have died and she and Rosaline
are on their way to stay with her aunt, and
they'll work for August until they can afford a train ticket.
June is suspicious of this story and she doesn't like
the idea of them staying understand, but August is more

(17:04):
kind of like warm and sympathetic, so she's like, sure,
you can stay in the honeyhouse and cook and help
with the bees. So Lily and Rosaline settle in. August
starts to show Lily the ropes of bee keeping, and
Lily really takes to it. She is not afraid of
bees or anything. And it made me wonder and I

(17:26):
forgot to look this up, but I'm like, I wonder
if like Dakota Fanning is or is not afraid of bees.
I wonder if Queen Latifa is or is not afraid
of bees.

Speaker 5 (17:35):
Oh so Queen Latifa, Tristan Wilds, who plays Zach, and
Dakota Fanning each had to go through bee keeping training
for the film.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah. I also read that Gina Prince Bythwood is deadly
afraid of bees as well. Yes, And it was like
they had to sort of all get through it together
of like, Okay, if I can be near the bees,
that you could be near the bees. And I guess
that there's only there's only one cgi shot of bees
and I don't think I would have been if I
had directed this movie, I would not have been that brave.

(18:04):
I'm like, na, you know it's gonna know, no, it's
gonna be yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
And I didn't even notice what was cgi and what
yeah wasn't so that good job there, But I am
I am so afraid of bees. I would not ever
be in a b movie me neither. I'll say that.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
I don't know. I want to be brave. I our
our friend Alex who was recently on the show, used
to be a bee keeper, and like, some day, some
day I'll be. But yeah, I know, I'm terrified of them.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
They're so scary.

Speaker 5 (18:32):
Love their work though exactly, I don't want to be
scared of them, and because of their work and and
I just just a yeah, and I know they were
here first. I'm still afraid of them.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
I'm not trying to get in their way, I'm not
trying to disrupt them.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
But it's just like I would never kill a bee,
let's be clear. I mean they're important to the world.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
I got my first beasting last year, which is like
wild that it took that long, Oh my god, but
it was when I was in Yeah, I was I
was at the beach and it like it was trying
to sting me in and so I swatted and then
but it was just like no, no, this is I'm
literally dying on this hill and it stung me in
the middle of my forehead. It was so bizarre. Yeah,

(19:16):
oh my gosh. Look much like many people in this movie,
I've learned to forgive and move on. But yes, a
difficult be experience.

Speaker 4 (19:28):
Okay, so we learn more about the sisters, the boat
right sisters and their lives. June is with this guy
named Neil played by Nate Parker, also real life piece
of shit, who wants to marry her, but she doesn't
want to be married, so she keeps saying no.

Speaker 5 (19:47):
And in the books she got left at the altar
by a different man.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Interesting, Oh so that's why.

Speaker 5 (19:53):
Yeah, And like, there's even a deleted scene where I believe,
I believe Rosaline like tries to call her out and say, like, listen,
you need to need to live your life. I know
your husband left you at the altar or whatever, but
you need to get over yourself or whatever. But that
scene got deleted.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Interesting. I don't know if I would like that better
or worse. I feel like if they removed that plot point.
I wish they had changed the ending for this character because.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
I find it very frustrating.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
In my notes, I wrote, like, so help me if
she marries this guy at the end, and spoiler alert,
sure enough, she does.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
She does it. Yeah, so that's June. She also plays
the cello.

Speaker 5 (20:39):
And Alicia Keys studied the cello.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Yes, gosh, I didn't even know has Alicia Key's been
in other movies. I didn't know that she had a
like she has been in other movies.

Speaker 5 (20:48):
Really, Oh my goodness, And okay, I knew that, and like,
oh my gosh, I'm blanking. I'm blanking on the title.
Oh no, I just I just saw this with my
friend with my best friend a month ago. She and
Taraji p Henson play in the very silly action movie
and they're a lesbian couple and it's so entertaining, Like,
oh my god. They're not the main characters of the story.

(21:08):
There are other characters in it. Ryan Reynolds is in
it and stuff. Ray Leota was in it.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
She was in smoking aces, smoking aces things.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
That's the one. Okay, wow, good for her. Yeah, she's
in a few things, big fan. So that's June. May
is very sensitive and deeply empathic. She breaks down crying
quite often. We learned that she had a twin sister, April,
who died when they were younger, which was incredibly devastating

(21:40):
for May.

Speaker 5 (21:41):
There's very necessary context that they meant that they left
out from the book about April, and they don't even
touch upon it in the commentary either, which makes me
very upset in either commentaries that I watched for this. So,
April and May are twins, and then there is an
incident of at a candy store and she expresses upsetness

(22:04):
with her father about it, and then her father's like,
that's life, April, You're gonna have to put up with it.
And then so then April just feels so much of
the weight of the world after that incident, to the
point where she takes a gun and takes her own life.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (22:17):
And so when we talk about May later, there's a
part of the book where June says, it's just like April,
and it makes me this really upset that they took
out that context from the movie. Yeah, And granted, like
I'm pretty sure some of it has to do if
like Gina Prince Fyke would saying things like we shouldn't
have to over explain ourselves, which they talked about a
little bit in the and the commentary about certain plot

(22:39):
points such as like June's backstory about being left at
the altar. But yeah, I hate it.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
That the adaptation changes sound so bizarre, like I don't
need what is even the I guess it's yeah, like
we have to quote unquote keep it light, and it's like, well,
in that case, she's a different text. Yeah, I don't know, right. Interesting.
I also just wanted to really quickly shout out Sophie
Okinado because she is like so unbelievably accomplished. She's been
nominated for every award under the sun. I saw her

(23:08):
most recently in Janet Planet.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
Oh yeah, but she's.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Also she was like nominated for an Oscar for her
performance in Hotel Rwanda. She's won a Tony.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
She's like such a good movie.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
She's done everything. But I feel like people don't really
talk about her very much. I feel like she usually
plays supporting roles, So just shout out to her.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Definitely. Yeah, so we learned this about her character May,
and Lily has also discovered that May wedges these little
pieces of paper in a stone wall behind the house,
and it's her writing her like feelings on the paper

(23:48):
and putting him in the wall. So we learn these
things about the sisters. We also see them often discussing
things like racism and depression that they observe and experience
at the hands of white people. So there's a number
of conversations to that effect throughout the movie. Then Lily

(24:10):
meets Zach played by Tristan mac Wilde's. This is August's godson.

Speaker 5 (24:16):
Who is Adele's love in. Tristan, Hello, I'm sorry I
keep inter.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
Rept Oh my god, no, can't wait. Fun fact. Never
never would have known.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, I don't think. I never watch music videos, so
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
He wasn't seen that one in years.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
So Zach is close to Lily's age, I think a
couple years older because he has a driver's license and drive,
so he's at least sixteen.

Speaker 5 (24:42):
Yeah, in the book he's sixteen. By the time this
was being filmed, Dakota Fanning was thirteen going on fourteen
and Tristan was eighteen going on nineteen.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Oh oh that is yeah, then that's upsetting based on
something that happens later, which is the kiss on screen. Okay,
well we'll go back to that.

Speaker 5 (25:06):
Yes we will.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
So Zach helps August with bee keeping as well, and
he and Lily become friends. He tells her that he
wants to be a lawyer when he grows up. She
wants to be a writer. They're vibing, but a.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
Quick, quick thing. Yeah, how okay? How is it that
the same girl who is willing to watch things about
like the Civil Rights Act passing with Rosaline not know
who third Good Marshal is.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
Yeah, it's ok.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
There's a lot to discuss about.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
That, and it's it is like one of the things
that I feel like, you can you know, however well intentioned,
like if you can feel that like a white lady
wrote the source material, because sometimes it just feels like
very broad in a way that like is like this
young white girl learns about racism, which is also basically

(26:03):
Hairspray and The Help. It's like, why can't it just
be about Roslyne? Unfortunately? I mean I don't even dislike
the character of Lily. I don't dislike her journey. I
think that there is it's a very but it just
feels like she overshadows so much of what is it? Like,
I think you could write her out of the movie

(26:24):
for sure, pretty easily. It just feels like there's two
different stories that Yeah, Roslyne and the sisters are just
like not getting the amount of narrative real estate that
they deserve exactly.

Speaker 5 (26:35):
And then the commentary, Gina talks about how in the
in the scene where she's first having breakfast with the
boat right sisters, she was all like, we really wanted
to showcase Lily being taken care of for the first time,
where she's not making food for her father instead others
are making food for her. And I have such mixed
feelings about that because I'm like, if you really want

(26:57):
to show a loving, collaborative thing when you have this
young white girl as the as the centerpiece, you could
have made the scene where they're cooking together, right and
that being loving, Because yeah, I'm not a big fan
of like all these black women, with the exception of June.
June is like I don't have time for this, but
like a lot of these black women being like, oh

(27:17):
are you okay, Let's make you food and da da.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Da, Right, Yeah, I agree, which is it's just like
such a media fixture of this decade.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Right because at the end of the day, it's still
a story about black characters like servicing the white main protagonist.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
And raising her and yeah, you know, and that just
obviously doesn't sit well. And then you're also like, it's
not that I don't want Lily to be loved and
cared for it, but like, why was this the narrative solution,
Like you're saying, Maya, there's like simple things that the
story could have done to I don't know, rectify it.

(27:57):
I don't know. Maybe it's not a completely solvable thing, but.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
Yeah, we'll discuss that further as well. So it's been
about a week since Lily has arrived at the Boatwright
House and June continues to be skeptical. She's like, why
are you still here? Lily's just like haha, idkay, And
then she asks about the honey jar label that depicts

(28:22):
a black virgin Mary and baby Jesus and August. With
the help of her church friends.

Speaker 5 (28:30):
The Daughters of Mary.

Speaker 4 (28:32):
Yes, yeah, they have their own religion.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Question Mark.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
I wasn't super clear on that, but I'll touch.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
On that when we get It's like, we have the
right guests.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
So August tells a story about an enslaved man who
had come across this wooden figure of a woman who
God sent to protect him. August now has this wooden figure.
You're in her home and they touch her heart and pray,

(29:05):
and Lily's about to go do this like touching the
wood figure's heart, but memories of her past and her
mother's death come flooding back and she faints and.

Speaker 5 (29:16):
June stops playing the cello right then and there, Yeah,
I like, don't I don't want you touching her?

Speaker 3 (29:22):
I yeah, I was like, I have a lot of
empathy for Lily. But yeah, my note there was like,
it's not about you right now, Lily, chill out there.
You traumatize thirteen year old how dare you?

Speaker 4 (29:36):
And Lily, you know, recovers. Things continue on as they
had been. She's you know, crushing on Zach and wants
to smooch him on the face. Then there's a scene
where they harvest purple honey and she licks it off
Zach's finger, and I was so scandalized by that scene.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:57):
In the commentary, they had talked about like, so do
we portray this do we not portray this? D Dakota
Fannings's mom was there that day and she was like,
I'm not gonna look at the screen. They decided to
do it because it was it was a scene from
the book.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
So well, now that I know that he was legally
an adult and she was thirteen, I'm like even more
horrified by it.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
And that's like a production issue too, It's like that's
on the production to make sure that that doesn't happen.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
Yeah, so that's you know, awful, but that happens. And
then there's a scene where Lily and August tend to
the bees, but they're not flying around their highs like usual.
They're inside the hive and August says, yeah, bees have
a secret life that we don't know anything about, and
we're like, that's basically the name.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Of the movie.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Then there's a scene where there's like a water hose
fight and June kind of like finally loosens up and
plays with them, but then she breaks down crying because
she and Neil recently broke up because because.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
He calls here a bitch.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, Like she's like, I don't want to be married
and he's like, well, you're a selfish bitch. Then and
he leaves, so a horrible character.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
And then you're like, surely we won't be seeing him again.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
Well JK.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:20):
Then one night Lily asks May if she knew a
woman named Deborah Owens. This is Lily's mother, although Lily
doesn't mention this, but she sees May luring cockroaches with
Graham crackers and marshmallows the same way that t Ray
had described Lily's mother as doing. So she makes this

(31:40):
connection and May says, yes, I knew Deborah. She stayed
in the Honeyhouse many years ago, and she was the
sweetest person. The memory of Deborah makes May tear up,
and she leaves. But now Lily has confirmation that her
mother stayed in this house. So the next day, Zach
invites Lily to go into town with him, and while

(32:04):
they're hanging out, Lily relays this information of yeah, my
mom stayed here, but I didn't tell anyone because I
was afraid the truth would wreck everything. And he's like,
you know, empathetic towards that, And then they go to
the movies together in a segregated theater, but Lily and
Zach sit together which.

Speaker 5 (32:25):
In the colored section, not the white section.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
Right, yes, and these racist men come in and abduct Zach.
So Neil and this other man who's like a family
friend go out looking for Zach. August and June decide
not to tell May that Zach is missing because they
think it'll be too much for May to handle emotionally,

(32:48):
but May finds out anyway. It does gravely affect her,
especially because they all know that when a black person
is taken like this, they often never come back. May
go out to her wall spends several hours there. Then
they can't find her, so August, June, Lily, and Rosaline
go looking, and they discover May's body in a stream,

(33:12):
after having died by suicide, and everyone is devastated. Sometime later,
against all odds, Neil and that family friend find Zach
and they bring him back, and so there's a tearful reunion.
Neil and June seem to rekindle their relationship in that moment,

(33:33):
and you're like, no, Jim, get away from him. You're
so close. Then August finds May's suicide note, which says
that it's her time to go, but it's the rest
of the family's time to live, so don't mess it up.
And it's such a heart wrenching moment in the movie.

(33:54):
They hold a funeral from May, and then Lily shows
a picture of her mother to August and August is like, yeah,
I knew her and I figured out that you're her daughter,
and Lily breaks down crying. She feels that she's to
blame for what happened to Zach and May, that she's

(34:15):
to blame for her mother's death, saying that she's unlovable,
and August tells Lily that she's not unlovable. There's love
all around her. And then August reveals that she used
to be Lily's mom's nanny when Deborah was a child,
and that August knew Deborah most of her life. And

(34:35):
she describes Deborah and Tray's relationship early on that he
wasn't abusive at first, but Deborah fell out of love
with him after a while, married him anyway because she
was pregnant with Lily, and then Deborah left him after
a few years and came to stay with August in
the honeyhouse, and Lily's like, and she brought me with

(34:57):
her right and August as no, sorry, she came by herself.
So it seems like what t Ray had said about
her mom leaving Lily might be true, which of course
upsets Lily, and she goes to the honeyhouse and smashes
a bunch of jars of honey.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
I really, I mean, I want to talk about it
more fully. I really appreciated parts of this scene, especially
with I don't know. I was trying to put myself
in august shoes of like what would I tell a kid?
And I found her like honesty very touching, even though

(35:35):
it was painful, where it was like, I really appreciate
about her character that she doesn't you know, like she's gentle,
but she doesn't sugarcoat stuff, and she treats Lily like
an adult in that moment, which you know isn't always
the right call, but it's I just I don't know.
I was really surprised at that choice, and I really

(35:58):
liked it because I feel like when you're that often
adults will just you know, bullshit, yachd because I think
you can't handle something. And even though it's painful, I
was like, Wow, that was like a really powerful and
risky thing.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
That was really cool for sure. So later Lily and
Zach have a conversation he says how angry he is
about what happened to him, and Lily is basically like, well,
just make sure your anger doesn't become you know, like
hatefulness and violent, and then they talk about their future

(36:35):
plans again they kiss. As we alluded to, there's kind
of some more moments of like tying up of loose ends,
where Rosaline says that she successfully registered to vote. June
is like, hey, Neil, if you ask me to marry
you again, I'll say yes. They get engaged. You're like

(36:57):
that no, and then there's a knock on the door
and it's Lily's dad, t Ray. He had figured out
where she was. He demands that Lily come back home
with him. He's being very aggressive and violent.

Speaker 5 (37:11):
Whereas she's being like, oh, won't you come in to
have a seat if you want to like ooh like
the need to be polite.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Like them, Yeah, right, Well, because she doesn't know how
he's gonna behave, and it turns out he blake. He
behaves horribly.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
He's still a bad guy.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yeah, he's still horrible. Lily refuses to go with him,
and August is like, yeah, I know, Lily has a
home here as long as she wants, so, you know,
t Ray realizes he has lost this battle and he
goes to leave, but before he does, Lily asks him
if it's true that when her mother came back, like

(37:53):
back home to Tray's house, if she was only coming
back for her things like he said, or if it
was something else, And he's like, no, she was coming
back for you, Lily. He drives off out of her
life forever, and Lily embraces her found family slash found

(38:14):
Mothers of August, June, and Rosaline. She writes about this
experience and puts the notebook that she wrote it in
on May's wall, and that's how the movie ends. So
let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
And we're back, and we're back.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
So in the books ending, yes, it's August, Rosaline and
the daughters of Mary crowding around t Ray going like,
you're not gonna take this girl with you. And I
assume that because like there's not as much character development
in the film, and like you can only do so
much in a films. It's the it's the three main moms,
and I'm and I'm okay with that. But what she

(39:04):
asks Tray before he leaves, because some somewhere along in
the book this whole thing she's not only is she
trying to figure out like whether or not her mom
came back for her, she's also trying to figure out
did I really kill my mom? Because all I remember
is the gun going off. So she asked t Ray,
did I really kill my mom? And he's like, I

(39:27):
know you don't want to hear this. I know you'd
want it to be her who did it to herself,
or me who did it, But it was you and
it wasn't your fault. And then he takes off.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yeah, which again is like another I don't know, just
like a very unsugarcoated truth for Lily.

Speaker 4 (39:45):
Yeah, the movie's ending feels much more like hollywoodified.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I mean, yeah, it does
feel like a very I mean in a lot of ways.
I think all the way from like the Nate Parker
character back and they're going to get married, and that is,
you know, a Hollywood signifier of a happy ending. And
the mean guy goes away, but not before she knows
that she I guess there's so many places to start.

(40:12):
I was kind of I don't know, I was thinking about,
this movie is a lot about mothers and mothering, et cetera,
and I feel like a lot of like there are
missed opportunities in there. But I guess the hollywoody ending.
Not that I wanted Willy to be abandoned by her mother,

(40:33):
but I thought it was getting like in that scene
where we're just talking about with Lily and August, like,
I thought it was getting at something that we don't
see in movies very often, which is that like mothers
are not inherently, you know, naturally gifted, amazing perfect parents.
And because the movie goes out of its way to

(40:53):
make it clear that Deborah had a lot of struggles
with mental health, she was abused, yeah, and you know,
was like set up to not really be able to
be a good parent to Lily. But I feel like
we so often see characters that you know, in spite
of whatever they're going through, being a mother is a
quality that will transcend any struggle you've had, and that

(41:15):
is like so often not true. And I not that
it's a great thing, but I always think it's interesting
when imperfect mothers are shown in movies. But it felt
like the ending kind of undercut that was like, no,
she actually was a perfect mother. I don't know. I
don't know. I just thought that they're you know, I

(41:35):
feel like I sound mean for being like I wish
Lily was abandoned, but I feel like we don't hear
stuff like that very often.

Speaker 5 (41:41):
Yeah, and like, and August does tell Lily about how,
like depress people often do things that they may not
comprehend at times, they may because they may not feel
like themselves. And they talk about this briefly about May
about how like, oh, a lot of doctors just told
us to institutionalize her, so we made the whaling wall

(42:02):
instead so we don't have to put her away. In
the book, they talk about that for May, and they
talk about that for for Deborah too, out how they're yeah,
so yeah, this's for for white women and black women
who are like I'm struggling. It's like, just we'll put
you away for a minute to calm down.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
God, I'm curious in general. Yeah, because you've written about
mental health and depression so extensively, Maya, how do you
feel like this this movie does with those topics?

Speaker 5 (42:35):
Oh my gosh, I because like I talked about this
in the Beyond the Lights episode about how how I
wish Gina Prince Backwood had more space to do more
about mental health in her and her film work, because
that is a topic that she's so interested in. And
when it came to filming May's suicide scene, in the commentary,

(42:58):
they said they only did it and in one take
because some of it had to do with like all
of the actresses being in the water longer than they
were supposed to, as well as Dakota Fannings hours like
she can only be kept until like nine pm. And
at the same time, it's like, I'm grateful that that
scene was only done in one take because of like
the actor's mental health and that, and that the scene

(43:22):
turned out well. And this was also before a time
because now we see movies whenever there's content about suicide
at the end credits, there's all like, if you're if
you're ever, if you have a loved one is struggling
with suicidality, call this number, And no one thought to
do that at the time, in like two thousand and seven,
two thousand and eight. So I just I just think
a lot about how for its time, it was so

(43:44):
meaningful to see, uh, to see a black family struggle
with suicidal loss and to struggle with it during a
time such as the Civil rights era even And there's
this scene where May has more time the wall to cry,
and I like that scene, and I like the Gina
Prince Bythewood really wanted that scene. And at the same time,

(44:06):
we don't spend enough time with may or May and
Rosaline's friendship either, and that makes me upset. I wanted
more time with that. There's so much there to talk about,
and there's so much there to talk about when it
comes to religiosity and mental health too. In the book,
they also talk about how how not only there's the

(44:28):
Whaling Wall, there's also there was one time she was
watching the news to the point where she was like
hitting herself in the face, and they decide to carry
her and put her in a bathtub, and they're like,
just watch the troubles away. And it's like they're using
the tools they have at that time. And I have
a lot of respect for that. I love that the
Whaling Wall is so public in their backyard. I love

(44:49):
that people can see it, and I love the visibility
of it, the visibility of that sadness, while also at
the same time I have so many questions about what
my therapist once called spiritual passing, where you're like, well,
everything's fine because God has me. Everything's fine because I'm
writing to God now and that's okay, rather than actually
sitting with the sadness. So I do have so many

(45:13):
follow up questions about whether or not that was a
discussion able to be had at the time or and
also to be fair when talking about this on the
Black Girl Film Club, like it could be that like
maybe maybe that was the best way for May so
that she could spend time on her own. Maybe that
was the best way, like because maybe she's not a talker,
Maybe maybe she does need to cry and just write

(45:35):
it out. So yeah, I get how when I was younger,
how this movie was a comfort movie for me, while
also at the same time, as I get older, just
continuing to have questions about the tools that we have
to take care of ourselves versus how to use them
or do we need to come up with more tools

(45:56):
and things of that nature, and how and how much
lateiency can we give for the time putting the phrase
the time in air quotes. People can't see me, they
can hear me.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
No, but one thing that really struck me was how
supportive her sisters were and how they gave her space
to emote and grieve and do anything else she needed
to do with her emotions. And there were never any
moments of judgment or as it's May being May again,

(46:32):
you know, and.

Speaker 5 (46:33):
She still chose to leave, and she still chose to
take her life. Yeah, even with all that support, Yeah
for sure.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
But it was like really heartening, I think to see
an example on screen of family members supporting another family
member who you know is prone to depression and you know,
a very empathic person who feels so deeply and for
them to be supportive and patient and all that, Yeah,
I was really nice to see.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
I mean, and particularly and this isn't like harp done
or should it have been, but just how you know,
you think about like in the mid century, how horrifically
both black patients and women were treated in institutions where
it's just like it's a it's very very clear that
given the options at the time, this is by far

(47:22):
in May's best interest, in the family's best interests, and
that that is never you know, called into question, because
I feel like sometimes there is the like, well would
she be quote unquote better off. And it just like
always irritates me when talking points like that come up.
But it's just very matter of fact. It is very
clear that this is the right environment or you know,

(47:42):
the best environment available. I love May Yeah, and I also,
I mean, I think that this ties to a larger
point that we've already referenced. But I also is bummed
to not see her and Rosalie's friendship develop more because
I was bummed that we didn't see more Rosaline, Like
it's so frustrating. I mean, the thing that, in really

(48:07):
any context, not that I'm like more character should interact
with Lily, but even Roselyne isn't interacting with Lily as much.
By the end of the movie, Like I feel like
she kind of gets it's we are told but not
shown that she is now a part of the boat
right sisters family unit, but I don't. Yeah, and I'm
glad that happens, But again, yeah, I feel like we're

(48:28):
told that more than we see that grow. There's a
part of me that's like, why doesn't Rosaline get to
learn how to do be keeping, you know, just in
the way that we can like kind of write Lily
out of this story. Yeah, Like I think the story
favors Lily so much that Roselyne kind of gets lost
in the shuffle, which is a shame because like I

(48:50):
actually do I think in a lot of movies that
take place in this era where it's like the little
white girl needs to learn about racism.

Speaker 5 (48:58):
And it doesn't help that like sum sumanc kid like
has said that wrote that some of Rosaline's mannerisms is
inspired by her own nanny that she grew up with.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Oh wow, Yeah, it's just really bizarre to me. Yeah,
because it's like I understand at the beginning of the
movie what Rosaline and how Rosaline and Lily, you know,
rely on each other to some extent. Lily needs an
adult in her life who cares what happens to her,
and I mean Rosaline it seems like also needs someone

(49:31):
in her working environment who is kind to her. Like
I understand their bond, but it seems like as the
movie goes on, Rosaline's connection to anybody just feels more tenuous.
And then she shows up to be like this is
a great situation for me, and like I believe you,
but I haven't, Like I don't get all iver really
is you really only see her kind of cooking.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah, I mean, Rosaline's arc is going from certainly working for,
if not living with, this white family. I don't would
It's not even clear if she lives there or not.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
In the books she does not.

Speaker 4 (50:03):
Okay, we don't even know in the movie. The movie
doesn't really care enough about her character exactly. But either way,
she spends a lot of time at this Owens household
taking care of Lily, so much of her life is
tending to white people, and she goes from that situation

(50:24):
to now living among other black women and that very
drastic change in dynamic. That's a far more interesting story
to me, exactly.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
It just seems like two different stories. Yeah, yeah, I
mean I think Lily's story is interesting. I just don't
think it belongs in this movie. It just feels like
a different movie.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
Right, Yeah, So yeah, I definitely clocked Rosaline's narrative importance
diminishing as the story goes on.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Which happens to Jennifer Hudson. That's the story of Jennifer
Hudson's life, And because she's also in the Sex and
the City movie, she's like the most poorly written characters
of all time. And you're just like, she just won
an oscar for fuck's sake.

Speaker 4 (51:05):
Anyways, exactly, Yeah, that's nuts.

Speaker 5 (51:08):
In the commentary, she talks about how uh what side
by she I mean, Gina Prince Bythewood. She she talks
about how she's like so at first we see Rosaline
like very very nervous around t Ray and like not
as outspoken, and then like she becomes more outspoken by
the end, like especially when she says, well, I guess
I'm back now at Tray and I'm like, no, give

(51:30):
us more, right, more, I want more. I want more
scenes like when she was telling Lily off in the forest, right,
like that's that's that's what I want more.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
She had a strong establ I mean, and it's horrific
seeing the racist abuse of that character endoors of course,
and also there I don't know if either of you
saw that. There there's a weird anecdote production anecdote about
Gina Prince Bythewood like basic like had.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
Oh the method acting bullshit, that's.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
Right, they met that. Yeah, they had a bunch of
white actors harassed Jennifer Hudson in like a convenience store
and call her the N word and like all of
this like pretty nasty stuff, and but genafrinces Bythewood sort
of was like, well, she had just won an Oscar,
so she had to understand what it was like to
feel not respected. And I was like that kind of

(52:22):
I don't Yeah, that's she's a great actor. You don't
need to like yeah exactly.

Speaker 5 (52:27):
She said that in the commentary too, and she and
also in the fight scene, Jennifer Hudson is doing her
own stunts and like, actually does get punched in the face.
And I don't like that. I don't find that impressive.
I don't like, no, found that so impressive.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
And I'm like, no, I know, I want to chuck
it up. I want to share that. Yeah, because I
have that quote here and I had to read it
twice and be like what this is from? And I'll
be quoting from it for other reasons. But an interview
that Gena Prince Bythewood did with Essence at the time
this came out, she said, we had very little rehearsal time,
and Jennifer was coming off the whole Oscar experience and

(53:05):
was in a whole other world so she could get
in Risally's head. I set up an improvisation and hired
some white actors to be in a drug store and
told her in Dakota to meet me there. I told
them it was an improvisation, but I didn't know Jennifer
thought it was real. My only direction to her was
to not hit anybody. The shopkeeper followed her around and
accused her of stealing. When Jennifer would ask for help,
another one would turned around in answer to Dakota. The

(53:27):
third guy used the N word, and I saw Jennifer's
had whip over to him, and I got scared for
a second. She said all she remembered was to not
hit anybuddy. When I talked to them afterward about what
they got out of it, Jennifer said the hardest thing
was feeling invisible. It was great bonding for Fanning in
Hudson and I was just like, no, that's like, that's
deeply fucked up to Jennifer Hudson. And I also think
it's pretty weird to do to a child actor too.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
Oh yeah, she Dakota. Fanning is actually kneeling in real
grits in the film.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
Oh, which yeah, seems very painful. Yeah, so okay, weird
choices directorially.

Speaker 5 (54:05):
Yeah, and Gina Prince Bythewood was was all like, oh,
I need to I need to kneel in the grit
so that I know, like if I if I can
handle it, Shirley Dakota can handle it.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
But Gina, you're an adult, like right. Anyways, the production
around this movie, I mean, do you mind if I
take a quick side quest. So something I thought was
interesting was this movie, It May Not Chalk You was
originally going to be.

Speaker 6 (54:31):
Directed by a white director date white man, Yes, David
Gordon Green, which also is like, I can't imagine a
weirder like Dan and McBride's best friend. Do we really
think he's the best suited for this? Like I like
his work, but like.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
What the why would you do that? Anyways, Gina Prince Bythewood,
this is her first movie after Love and Basketball, but
it came out eight years later, And I feel like
this so often happened to directors of color, to women directors,
and specifically this is like reeks of kind of misogynore
in terms of getting a good second project. What I

(55:09):
think is interesting is I believe she originally turned this
down because she's pretty picky with the project she wants
to do as is her right. She had taken some
time off to have her kids. But what she'd been
working on for five or so years that never ended
up happening was an adaptation of this really long book
about mental health and about bipolar specifically. Let me find

(55:33):
the title of I Know This Much Is True by
Wally Lamb. I'm not familiar with it. I don't know
if you are. The description is it's a nine hundred
page epic tale about an unhappy house painter and his
institutionalized identical twin brother, a paranoid, schizophrenic and like Gina
Prince Bythewood, I guess she grew up. I know, we've
talked about her extensively on this show, but she was

(55:56):
adopted and grew up in a white family and had
a bipolar brother. So this book really resonated with her.
She wanted to make it, she wrote to the author,
she got permission, It took years, but then when it
finally came to Fox. This is from a DGA article
from like fifteen years ago. When the brass at Fox

(56:18):
two thousand demanded an A list actor to play the
dual role. The projects fell apart because none of the
movie stars approach would say yes to working with a
relatively new director, which feels very telling to me, And
the fact that so it seems like, you know, even
though she speaks highly of this film, it just anecdotally
doesn't seem like this was her first choice for her

(56:40):
second film, and that this movie was made for a
smaller budget than Love in Basketball. It was made for
eleven million dollars and every actor had to take a
pretty major pay cut to be a part of it,
which I feel like is so often true in movies
that spotlight black women specifically. I mean, I think we
most recently talked about this in relation to the Color

(57:03):
Purple musical film of like how These there was a
huge salary issue with how undervalued the black actresses were,
But in any case, it just felt, I don't know,
I felt frustrated for even though I have notes for
Gina Princepipot on this movie, I was frustrated for her that, Like,
I mean, I think if you put a white male

(57:25):
director in her shoes, they have no problem getting first
of all, their second movie, but also their second movie
on source material of their choosing exactly, And I you know,
I wish she had gotten to make the movie that
she wanted to make because after love and basketball, she
should have been able to do fucking anything, and the

(57:46):
fact that she wasn't is just very you know, state of.

Speaker 4 (57:49):
The industry for sure. I and we've alluded to the
overall narrative, and we're like, why is it about this
white girl, or if it is, if it's a movie
about a young white girl and her you know, journey
figuring out what did happen with her mom, and you

(58:09):
know that narrative, why is it nestled into this other
story about these black women that movie right, rite that too,
So that is an issue in and of itself. I
do think that this movie does handle some things well
as far as identifying the varying degrees of micro and

(58:36):
macroaggressions directed toward black people and the different ways that
racial prejudice can manifest, because we see many examples of that.
And I did appreciate at least that this movie does
portray a white protagonist that like is a participant in

(58:56):
the racial prejudice and that like it gives her room
to grow. I think a white director would have been
inclined to be like, oh, well, sure there's racism, but
my protagonist who is a white child who grew up
in the Jim Crow South. She has no racial what

(59:19):
the hell. She understands everything about white supremacy and how
it oppresses and marginalizes black people because like white fragility
makes it so that white people have a very hard
time acknowledging their participation and complicity in white supremacy. So
this movie being directed by a black woman, she's able
to very easily identify those things, and it does make

(59:42):
for I think a better and more authentic movie than
it would have been if it had been directed by,
for example, David Gordon Green. So those are some things
that I think are handled better.

Speaker 5 (59:57):
Sure, Like even in the Tiny Thing to like they're
all referred to as as miss, whereas in the book
they're not. So that's it's it's a tiny thing, but
it still makes a huge impact. But also at the
same time, like Lily doesn't call Rosaline miss until after

(01:00:18):
she says like she's a registered voter, which I take
issue with.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
What it's true, Yeah, And I mean I don't know.
I mean, one one movie can't take on everything. But
it's again, it's like, I feel like we got some
strong stuff towards the beginning of the movie that kind
of goes away where you know, again from Rosaline who's
kind of bailed on, it felt a little like okay,

(01:00:45):
that like her happy ending is like I'm going to
vote for Lyndon Johnson and you're like, like, okay, better
than the alternative.

Speaker 5 (01:00:54):
But like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
It just felt a little like, you know, YadA YadA,
we're at the beginning, we're getting more complex stuff from her,
where you know, it felt more grounded in like, you know,
I would never buy that Dakota Fanning's character didn't have
a lot of internalized racism based on her upbringing, but
I did buy that she wouldn't understand that the civil
rights bill being passed doesn't mean everything is better overnight.

(01:01:19):
And I liked that moment with Rosaline where she's like, yeah,
technically maybe, but it's a piece of paper and like,
I don't know, like it felt like we were being
set up for more complex conversations that ended up happening.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Sometimes. There's another one that worked for me, where it's
this scene where Rosaline is attacked by the white men
and they're demanding that she apologize and Lily is begging
for her to comply with this request and to apologize,
and Rosaline refuses, and then she is arrested, and then

(01:01:57):
a little later, Lily says something like, well, yeah, you
were foolish for, you know, pouring your tobacco spit on
that white man, and even more foolish for not apologizing
if apologizing would have saved your life, And Rosaline's response is,
I know you don't understand this, but apologizing to those
men would have just been a different way of dying,

(01:02:19):
except I would have to live with it. But then,
like after that, any of those more nuanced conversations like
kind of don't happen at least between at least with Rosaline,
because she just sort of disappears mostly from the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
One thing I appreciated that I think, just again we
are we don't often see represented in movies is a
black family that is like a middle class, upper middle class.
I mean, their house fucking rocks. I don't know what
that white class that is in nineteen sixty whatever, But.

Speaker 5 (01:02:59):
The book they explained that they're dad was a dentist.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Okay, but yeah, I mean I think that that you know,
to this day is still a fairly underrepresented class. And
so it is. It was it was nice to see.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
Another example of like Lily's racial prejudice is she's like, wow,
I've never seen black people who are so cultured and right, I.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Know, like Rosaline, mean, while Rosaline sitting right there, I
would have been like like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
But then but then Rosaline is like, actually, neither have I.

Speaker 5 (01:03:32):
And yeah, there's even a part where Rosaline's all like,
I ain't never I have never heard of it. And
I'm like, you didn't have to change anything, you don't
change anything. But at the same time, I feel like
that comes from comes from the book. Like I feel
like like we just see a lot of Lily's internalized
thoughts about Rosalne in a way that just that just

(01:03:54):
makes me mad. Like she like wrote, Rosaline just does
not give a crap, and that's seen a lot more
in the book. And Lily's all like, oh my god, Rosaline,
I wish you'd care more. I wish you'd like not
like do that in front of the boat, right sisters
or whatever. And she's internalizing all of this, and I
think some of that carried into like how to portray
her in the movie, and I wish that didn't happen.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Interesting, gosh, it's Rosaline was done dirty Jennifer Hudson in
two thousand and eight, Like, it just was not fair,
not a fair time to our friend Jennifer Hudson and
the fact that she'd have to wait until it's twenty
nineteen to play her greatest role in Cats. You mean
of Grizabella the glamour Cat.

Speaker 4 (01:04:36):
Yes, yes, of course.

Speaker 5 (01:04:37):
Wait when did when did Aretha come out?

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Aretha? I think Aretha came out afterwards. But I was
also just being an asshole. Cats as hard.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
Yeah, no, we imagine if we were like Jennifer Hudson's
greatest performance in the greatest movie of all time Cats,
although she she is the best, I mean she she
has a great performance. You think she's in a way
better movie than she's actually in, which is like, how
was she to know?

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
But yeah, she's They didn't know that, they weren't gonna
edit out her human body, like couldn't have known?

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
Yeah. Can we talk about June and her relationship with Neil?

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Yeah, I hate it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
I hate it. It's him constantly asking her to marry him.
She says, no, I don't want to be married now
or ever. Like you mentioned, Maya, the movie deletes the
context for why. But even if honestly I appreciated that
there was no context, Like I didn't mind that that

(01:05:43):
context wasn't there, because people are allowed to not want
to get married and to not have true, you know,
any traumatic backstory that informs that they can just say,
like I don't want to get married. So I actually
was like, hell, yeah, June, you don't want to get married.
And she doesn't have to give a reason, and a
lot of people around her are like, you're so scared.

(01:06:05):
What are you so scared of? And she's like, I'm
not scared. I just don't want to get married. But
Neil keeps like pestering her. He then calls her a
selfish bitch, and then they break up about it and.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
He never apologizes.

Speaker 5 (01:06:17):
He never apologizes, And Gina Prince Bythewood had talked about
like while directing Alicia. She said something along the lines
of like, oh, it's so oh, it's amazing. How how
even though she's very firm and talking about how she's
not scared of anything, you can see the fear in
her eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
And like, and this is the couple we're rooting for.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
Are you to disagree?

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
Because like a lot of that just come from and again,
I know I talked about this in the Beyond the
Lights episode, like it just goes back to like Gena
Prince Bythewood's view of romantic relationships in a way where
I'm like, yeah, ah, buddy, And like there's a scene
where where Lily sees June and Neil kissing, and I
bring this up because this is connected back to Lily

(01:07:03):
and Zach's kiss scene and how Gina Prince Bithwood said
in the commentary, she was like, it was nice to
portray this form, this form of this form of innocence.
It was nice to do this at the at the
Wailing Wall because of because after Lily and May's scene
where they talk about kissing that's not in the book
but was an addition added to the story, and then

(01:07:26):
talked about like oh, she she caresses Zach's face, similar
to how June caress is Neil's face, and it's like it's.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
Yeah, don't don't talk about my friend Zach like that,
like that's Zach. Is seems like a really nice, a
nice kiss.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
And I also just I'm getting very bored with like
people asking actors what was it like kissing your co
star because like there's a commentary with Queen Latifa and
Dakota fanning the producers and Gina, and both Queen Latifa
and Gina asked Dakota, what's going through your mind? And like,
to paraphrase what Dakota said, she was just like had

(01:08:05):
a job to do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Child, he should be illegal, Like I I also, yeah,
I always think that, especially when you ask a child
like that, it is like the creepiest thing one could
do in that situation, especially like, hey, that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
Right, especially when and I only just learned this about
an hour ago, that she was kissing. You said he
was eighteen going on nineteen the actor, yep, and she's
thirteen certain going on fourteen. Yeah, let's not do that.
Don't cast an actor who is that much older if

(01:08:45):
you do insist on having an on screen kiss like that.
But also like is it necessary she's a choy, Like right,
let's not.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
There can be yeah, like there you can get across
their bond without doing that. Like, yeah, this was a bummer.

Speaker 4 (01:09:02):
To go back to June and Neil real quick to
just like close the loop on that. So he calls
herselfish bitch. They break up. She changes her mind for
reasons that are not clear. You could maybe say that
maybe it had something to do with what May had
said in her suicide note, where she's like, you know,
it's it's my time to go, but your time to live,

(01:09:24):
implying that the only way to live as a woman
is to get heterosexually married to a man.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
A person doesn't like it.

Speaker 5 (01:09:31):
Yeah, And granted August does say like, oh, there was
a time I was in love and like I loved
him enough to marry him, but I loved my freedom
more so I like, so I appreciate that contrast, and
at the same time, it again, it just doesn't help,
like like this idea of like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Come on, June, Mary Neil, marry yeah, like let him
wear you down so much that, for reasons that aren't clear,
you change your mind even though you were so like
headstrong about not getting married prior to this, and it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
That really has struck me of like why is August
able to have that grace? But I feel like June
is like often presented as like being cold and like
mean for not wanting to get married, and August is
not portrayed that way, even though their reasoning sounds basically identical.
So I just thought that was like bizarre mud.

Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
And then, as we've alluded to, and we talk more
about this on the Beyond the Lights episode, I don't
think it's we don't need to like rehash it in
a lot of detail. But and will place another trigger
warning here for rape and sexual assault. But Nate Parker
is a rapist. He raped a woman in the late
nineties while he was in college. He denied it, charges

(01:10:47):
were eventually dropped. He was able to go on to
have a an acting career, and for some reason he
gets cast in movies despite this being pretty easily accessible knowledge.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
So who can say why? Who can say why these
things have.

Speaker 4 (01:11:03):
Who does it have something to do with? I don't
know the patriarchy anyway, you whispering patriarchy if we if
if we whisper it, it'll go away.

Speaker 5 (01:11:17):
Welcome, welcomed to my smar gonna talk about the patriarchy.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Caitlin, is the patriarchy in the room with us right now?

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
It's behind me, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
Yes? So yeah, yeah, it's every male character except I
mean it's it's so because I in my notes, I
was like, at least we have Zach. But then the
casting age disparity is like, well kind of we don't
I like the character, Uh yeah, really really good character.

Speaker 5 (01:11:48):
Zach's mom was Lafonda in Napoleon Dynamite.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
And whah my god, that's but I want to be
I share.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
I have not thought about Napoleon Dynamite in so long.

Speaker 4 (01:12:06):
I feel like it's another movie we need to cover.

Speaker 3 (01:12:08):
I know, but I'm almost afraid to. I was like,
what there?

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
I mean, yeah, could.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
It possibly have aged? Well? I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:12:17):
I just don't think.

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
Only one way to find out.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
I used to have a vote Pedro shirt and an
I Love Lamp shirt. I mean, yeah, I was. I
don't want to talk about it. Yeah yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
I mean Zach as a character is a character I enjoyed.
And you know, the interactions between him and Lily or
another example of her like harboring these racial prejudices, because
there's that scene where they're talking about their future hopes
and dreams and she's like, oh, yeah, are you going

(01:12:54):
to be a professional football player? And he's like, why
do white people always think that the only way black
people can be successful is to play sports? And he
says he wants to be a lawyer, and she's like, oh, really,
I've never heard of a black lawyer before. And then
he's like Thurgood Marshall hello, and she's like, yeah, I
don't know him, and it's just another way of like

(01:13:17):
her being isolated and not knowing about the world.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
I'd say, see, I kind of had a different read
of that scene where where I do like appreciate that
you know she again, it's like she's not made out
to be immune to racism, because that would make no
sense given her lived experience. It just feels like sometimes
in like this subgenre of movies that like Zach was

(01:13:44):
there in that moment to teach her about racism, I mean,
versus to have it be more of like a character development.
And I feel like that is like so common to
movies that managed to center a young white person. Is
that like a lot of the black characters like struggles, ambitions,
whatever it may be, is like they're there to characterize,

(01:14:06):
but they're also there to be like, guess what you naive,
Dakota Fanning, they're good. Marshall exists.

Speaker 5 (01:14:14):
Another thing I'll point out, the boat right sisters are
older in the book then than who is casted to
portray them. In the film, and granted they sort of
kind of age Queen Latifah up, but not by much.
So I just find that fascinating around how much of

(01:14:36):
it had to do with having to sell a movie
and having like Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith be
be producers on it and like and stuff like that
or Yeah, but I'm also aware that like Gina Prince
Bythwood and Alicia Keys are our friends, so that's sort
of connected to like, Alicia Keys is casting in the

(01:14:57):
in the.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
Film, but she's really good in it. I really I
liked her performance.

Speaker 4 (01:15:01):
Absolutely, But another examples fantastic of you know, Hollywood favoring
younger women. Yeah, what else we got? Fulk I mean,
as you mentioned Maya, the book draws a clearer metaphorical

(01:15:23):
parallel between the lives of bees and what the women
in the story you're experiencing. But the movie is just like,
here are the logistics about how bee keeping works, and
it's far less like thematic and metaphorical.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
The only moment where it really comes back is when
may is sort of foreshadowing her own death by talking
about worker bees. Where that was like the only moment
where it felt like making an explicit connection to this
community of women, to the beemmunity.

Speaker 5 (01:16:01):
It's one of the few epigraphs from the book that's
that's said.

Speaker 7 (01:16:03):
In the movie Oh no kidding, Okay, Yeah, And also
going into MHM is now where I do the big
religion deep.

Speaker 5 (01:16:14):
Dive play, Okay, because the because again the the bees
are connected to the religious landscape as well. So so Sue,
my kid had been spending a lot of time writing
non fiction before she wrote fictional books. And she has
written a lot about progressive, progressive spirituality, the divine feminine.

(01:16:38):
I will unpack that and like in a minute, because
I have mixed feelings about that. But but yeah, this
is her first fictional book. And she has been doing
this project for years of like looking up different artistic
sculpt sculptures of like different Madonnas of different racial identities
and different cultural backgrounds. And she and then she did
find a piece from a ship that was supposed to

(01:17:01):
embody the Virgin Mary and which letter to write this
book and letter to like think about her own time
during the Civil rights movement at the age of fourteen,
and also what I like about the Secret Life of
be is it It's one of the few film representations
I've seen of black folks within within practicing Catholicism, because

(01:17:23):
usually it's it's in Protestant Pentecostal churches or like or
if there is Catholicism represented, it's because they go to
a Catholic school. It's not because they're necessarily Catholic or
they're of of Afrolatin X descents as to why they're
practicing Catholicism, and with with this practice with the daughters

(01:17:43):
of Mary, the ship head that they that they call
Mary had been in the boat Right's family for quite
some time, like the book describes their mom even talking
to her going like going like, oh my goodness, you
should have had a girl, have been a lot less
trouble and stuff like that, and uh. And their so

(01:18:05):
their mom is Catholic and their dad is an Orthodox Eclectic,
which is a denomination that leans more specifically to Eastern
Christianity rather than Western Christianity. And also they even the
book also talks about Rosaline's spiritual background too, like she
she engages in an altar work that that lily is

(01:18:27):
fascinated by Antiray is like, no, don't don't mess with
that food, with that voodoo shit, which is very racist
of him to say. And and at first Rosaline's not
into the Daughters of Mary thing, but she eventually gets
into it, even though she just most of the time
just sits there. And I think she's only like touched
the heart of.

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
Mary one time.

Speaker 5 (01:18:49):
And and they also talk about the connection with with
bees as part of their religious tradition too, like they
talk about like so this So the scene in the
movie where August puts the black covers on the bee hives,
that's the only thing from the book that they show.

(01:19:10):
And apparently it wasn't written in the script, but Gina
Prince Bithwood wanted a shot of that before they were
before they were done. I'm glad that shot exists. And
so when it comes to death rituals, honey used to
be used for embalming. They used to shape tombs in
the shape of bee hives when when early Christians were

(01:19:31):
hiding from from Romans. Not only was there like the
fish symbol, there was also there were also bee symbols.

Speaker 4 (01:19:37):
Oh okay, And in.

Speaker 5 (01:19:38):
The book, August says covering the hives was supposed to.

Speaker 8 (01:19:41):
Keep the bees from leaving. You see, the last thing
they wanted was their bees swarming off. When a death
took place, having bees around was supposed to ensure that
the dead person would live again. She also says, back
when the Christians hid from the Romans down in the catacombs,
they used to scratch pictures of bees the walls to
remind each other that when they died, they'd be resurrected.

Speaker 5 (01:20:06):
And she said, and she also says something about about
how like this figure came from came from a ship,
and the people wanted to believe about the Virgin Mary's
spirit within that, within that figure and see and see
themselves in in that figure, because because she says something

(01:20:26):
along the lines of how people deserve a God that looks.

Speaker 4 (01:20:30):
Like them, which gets referenced to some extent in the
movie where the label of the honey jars has black
Virgin Mary and baby Jesus. And there's a part where
Lily is like, what's that about? And June says something like,
you mean, like, why is Mary black? Or why is that?

(01:20:54):
And that's that's what prompts the scene where August and
the is it the daughters of Mary?

Speaker 5 (01:21:01):
The Daughters of Mary, it's the it's how they're described
in the book I recognize that they don't say that
in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:21:08):
They probably do.

Speaker 5 (01:21:09):
Yeah, in the in The Daughters of Mary, sugar girl
has a husband named Otis who's mostly quiet and just
sits there.

Speaker 4 (01:21:19):
More men should be like this.

Speaker 5 (01:21:22):
It's easy to get rid of Otis in the movie.
But yeah, when going into like the whole divine feminine
thing that sumanc Kid talks about, Like, like on one end,
I appreciate that the progressiveness of it because of how
often women are under underrepresented in religious and spiritual conversations.

(01:21:42):
But then at the same time it crosses into like
turfy territory, trans exclusionary radical feminism type territory and doesn't
make a lot of room for for religious or spiritual
trans folks. I remember in the Color Purple episode, y'all
talked about Alice Walker siding with JK. Rowling and like

(01:22:03):
she's also she's also a spiritual writer, and like she
she came out with an apology question mark, I don't
know how I feel about it, And also like I'm
too scared to look into like how sumanc kid feels
about trans people. I'm too nervous. But yeah, but yeah,
typically like whenever there are folks specifically women with some

(01:22:29):
form of a Christian background, even as they tried to
make it progressive or try to lean into womanhood of
it by by calling things like the divine feminine. I
do get scared at times, where as far as like
like like I don't I don't want to take your
journey away from you. And at the same time, if
you're if you're divine feminine doesn't include trans people, I

(01:22:50):
don't know how I feel about that. So yeah, that's
those Those are all my notes and feelings about the
religious landscape of Yes, this movie, in the book that
inspired it.

Speaker 4 (01:23:02):
That's very interesting, most if not all of that gets
left out of the movie, Like all of that right
kind of historical context and b significance isn't really in
the movie. It's just Queen Latifa being like, yeah, and
then we put smoke on the bees to masks they're
pheromones and calm them down, which the movie gets wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
They're like smoking the bees, they're killing us, and it's
like all the bees have like emphysema, and you're like,
it's not it's just not.

Speaker 4 (01:23:37):
In conclusion, being movie sucks. But yeah, there is there
chemicals in this In the smoke.

Speaker 5 (01:23:44):
Is that the problem or is it just a matter?
They're like, Oh, it's smoke.

Speaker 4 (01:23:47):
They're suggesting it's like tobacco smoke in B movie.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
Yeah, they're acting like it's cigarette smoke. It's so Terry
Seinfeld IQ of zero, Like it's just yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:24:01):
The producer, one of the producers of this movie kept
getting letters from people saying that they wanted Queen Latifah
to adopt them.

Speaker 4 (01:24:10):
Seeing this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Who could relate? Who could relate?

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:24:15):
Yeah, does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss
about the Secret life of Bees?

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
I think that's everything that I had it. I don't know. Ultimately,
I'm like it was. It feels very much a product
of its time.

Speaker 4 (01:24:30):
To me, you could parse out different parts of this
story and isolate them and they should just kind of
be their own thing. And the fact that they're overlapping
just means that the narratives of the black women suffer
for it. So yeah, uh, Well, the movie does pass

(01:24:51):
the Bechtel test for sure for large swaths of the
movie between many different characters, so no problems there. As
far as our Nipple scale, though, where we rate the
movie on a scale of zero to five nipples. Examining
the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, Hmmm, I'm kind

(01:25:19):
of leaning toward like a two and a half or
three for the reasons that we've discussed throughout the episode
and like what I was just talking about as far
as like, yes, the black characters are important narratively, but
at the end of the day, it's still very much
a story about a white girl's journey with like black

(01:25:43):
characters as the backdrop, almost and there's nothing inherently wrong
with a story about a white girl.

Speaker 3 (01:25:51):
You know, loved the substance.

Speaker 4 (01:25:56):
Exactly, but yeah, it's it's a It's what we've already said.
It's just like, let you know, these other characters have
their own story. I'll give it three nipples, one to
Queen Latifah, one to Jennifer Hudson, and one too Sophie

(01:26:16):
Oknado nice the end, I'm gonna go three as well.

Speaker 3 (01:26:21):
I mean, I love Gena France Bythwad. This movie did
not super work for me, but I think a lot
of that is connected to the source material as well. However, Yeah,
I mean, even just like some of the directing choices
she made, putting Jennifer Hudson through that bizarre or a
deal like without making sure that even if she did know,

(01:26:44):
it was fake, Like, I just Jennifer Hudson should have
had the opportunity to be like no, thanks, Like you
don't need to teach me what racism is for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:26:52):
Yeah, just because I've won an oscar doesn't mean I'm
immune from racism, Like what even?

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
Yeah, And I also think that that's that's a really
weird situation to put a kid in as well, Like
it just yeah, like some of her her choices I
have questions about. But I also feel like, as we've
talked about with Gina Prince Bythewood before, that she has
never gotten the opportunities that she's deserved, especially the earlier
in her career. You go, but we talked about this

(01:27:20):
on the Woman King episode where it was just completely
snubbed at the Oscars for her work, And so, you know,
I think that while I don't agree with a lot
of the choices she's making here, I also think she's
put between a rock and a hard place constantly because
she wasn't able to make the movie she wanted to,
And that is also deeply unfair. Yeah, in terms of

(01:27:43):
being a product of its time, a civil rights era
story adapted from a work of a white writer that
centers a white teenager, very popular thing to do in
this stretch of five years. And while I think that
Lily is a you know, fairly well written character all

(01:28:04):
things considered, and it's not that I dislike her, again,
it just feels like this, but but her being centered
in the story means that the majority black cast becomes
supporting characters, and that just doesn't feel right at all.
So I'm going to give it three nipples. I'm going
to give one to Jennifer Hudson, and I'm going to

(01:28:27):
give one to Jennifer Hudson and dream Girls, and we
to give one to Jennifer Hudson and Cats.

Speaker 4 (01:28:32):
Dream Girls another movie we have to cover. Wow, so
much to do the.

Speaker 3 (01:28:37):
Last time, the last time I dream Girls. This is
so loser coded. After my junior prom when you're supposed
to like go out and like get drunk and kiss,
they were like, hey, for any any loser kids, you
can come back to the high school cafeteria and we're
going to show dream Girls on DVD. And I've watched

(01:28:59):
dream Girls and drank milk. I was like, it was
so fucking pathetic. Anyways, I liked the movie, but I
just that movie I associate with being like a gigantic loser.

Speaker 4 (01:29:13):
Wow, I love that story. Thank you so much, Maya.
What say you?

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
Maya's still recovering from what a loser I was in
high school. No.

Speaker 5 (01:29:25):
But but here's the thing though, when you cover dream
Girls on this on this podcast, non loser status.

Speaker 3 (01:29:32):
Right, I mean step into the bad side. I step
into the bad side is just like and I love
that song so much. That was my favorite song at
the time, dream Girls. Anyways, Anyways, I will.

Speaker 5 (01:29:44):
Give this movie three and a half nipples because I
do love that May's portrayal in the movie is a
lot better than the book. And again, a lot of
it just has to do with like Lily's fourteen year
old voice talking about things she doesn't understand and using
ablest language about May in a way that I didn't like.

(01:30:05):
So I love that there is. Even though more space
could have been given to May, I do love that
May does get some space and even some original content
added to her character in the in the hair braiding
scene with Lily and I, Oh my gosh, I June
deserved so much better and some of the behind the

(01:30:25):
scenes details they talk about, like we wanted to make
June a more accessible character, and that made me mad,
especially when it came to like how more context would
have made her a more accessible character. And like another
thing in the book, she plays music for for people
for the dead, whether they're dying in hospice or like

(01:30:47):
or like they're playing she's playing at funerals, and she
used to work as a mortician, and like and not
having a history about like having that history when it
comes to like having a younger sister die by suicide
and then in your adult life having a sister died
by suicide is like would have been incredible context to
give Are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 (01:31:08):
I sorry? I was like, I just realized my brain
is soup because I was like, I was like, the
Grateful Dead weren't were they performing? Then she worked with
the dead, like as in the Bodies, not not the band.

Speaker 4 (01:31:22):
I was like, do people refer to the Grateful Dead
as the dead?

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):
Yes? I only know that because my brother is a
huge dead head.

Speaker 4 (01:31:29):
He's a dead head.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
Oh he is. And I think I'm going to this
is I think I'm going to a concert with him
for his birthday.

Speaker 4 (01:31:39):
A Dead concert.

Speaker 3 (01:31:41):
Yeah, they're supposed to be twelve hundred hours long. I
can't wait, can't wait. Oh my gosh. Wow, Well, I'm
sure my brother would be proud of me. I was like, whoa,
the Grateful Dead should have been in that movie. That's wild.

Speaker 5 (01:31:53):
Anyways, all the performances are fantastic. It makes me so
uncomfortable watching watching some of the special features continent of
like Paul Bettany and Nate Parker being like the the
nice guys and like when like, clearly they're not so nice,
and it makes me uncomfortable. There are many things I

(01:32:16):
love about this movie. There are many things I continue
to interrogate about this movie. So I'm gonna give it
three three and a half. And I often I notice
I've been noticing this. I tend to make people share
a nipple and then the event for the half one
one person gets okay. So I'm gonna give one nipple
for Queen Latifa and Alicia Keys to share one nipple

(01:32:40):
to be shared between Jennifer Hudson and Sofio Canido. I'll
give a nipple for Oh my gosh, I'm blinking. I'm
blinking on the actual actress's name, Oh, the one in
Zachary's mom Laonda from Napoleon Time. Oh yes, I know,

(01:33:02):
I'm going to look up her name. I need to,
I need to get this right.

Speaker 4 (01:33:05):
Her name is Chandrella Avery.

Speaker 5 (01:33:07):
Thank you. I'm gonna give a nipple to Chandre Chandrella
Avery and Sandra Hernandez, the costume designer. Oh, I love
all of the boat Right's sister's dresses, especially that purple
dress that August wears when talking one on one to
Lily with like her Debor's Box of Things. And then

(01:33:29):
the final half nibble to India Ari for her song
beautiful in the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
Lofe Maya. Thank you so much for coming back.

Speaker 5 (01:33:40):
Thank you so much for having me back. We still
need to do something on Dear Evan Hansoon.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
I know y'all are.

Speaker 5 (01:33:45):
Like, oh no, but I'm over here like, oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:33:48):
It's time, it will happen. I still have never seen
that movie. I don't know what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:33:55):
So Caitlyn, I think you'll think it's I mean, it
is kind of funny.

Speaker 4 (01:33:58):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
Ultimately that of a comic guy who's.

Speaker 4 (01:34:02):
In it would later go on to be in does
that movie called Band Camp Theater camph Theater Camp Theater Camp,
which I enjoyed very much.

Speaker 5 (01:34:12):
So it's a fun mover.

Speaker 4 (01:34:14):
Yes, Maya, thank you so much for joining us. Come
back anytime. Thank you for Dear Evan Hanson.

Speaker 5 (01:34:20):
Or any other movie or listen, listen, I'm I'm willing
to wait for Dear Evan Hanson if need be, we'll no,
it's it's always an honor talking about films with y'all.
So thank you very much for letting me come back.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
Course, thank you so much for coming back.

Speaker 4 (01:34:36):
Where can people check out your work? Follow you on
social media? Plug anything you'd like to plug?

Speaker 5 (01:34:43):
Yeah, I am on Instagram, Blue Sky and Twitter at
e M M dubb one sixteen, so M doub sixteen.
I have a website Maya williamspoet dot com. M A
y A Williams Poe dot com. You can buy either
one of my poetry collections from that website, or you

(01:35:05):
could read any of my other published work, whether it's
poetry or essays or stuff like that. So yeah, I
have a chatbook out now called What's So Wrong with
a Pity Party Anyway? Via a garden party collective, my
best friend came out with a book called The Space
Between Men, Yes, through Penguin Random House. Miaus Willis wrote

(01:35:30):
The Space Between Men would highly recommend this beautiful poetry collection,
which also touches on suicidality, gender, spirituality, mythos for folks
who are interested in that.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
Amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:35:43):
We'll have to check that out.

Speaker 5 (01:35:45):
Oh I forgot one more thing. I'm so sorry, I
forgot one more thing.

Speaker 4 (01:35:47):
Oh please.

Speaker 5 (01:35:48):
I am open for poetry commissions if you are looking
for a poem for an upcoming event or for a
loved one. I also audio record poems for performances such
as drag performances, less performances, theater performances. So if you
were interested in that, you can email me at Maya
Williams one six at gmail dot com or use the
context form and my website.

Speaker 4 (01:36:09):
Thank you, Oh my gosh, that's so I love that
you do all of those performances. You can follow us
on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon,
where we cover two movies a month based on an
amazing theme, such as Insecttober, which we just finished up

(01:36:31):
in which we covered b movie, which, as we've said,
absolutely sucks.

Speaker 3 (01:36:37):
Not enough bees. Well go over to Yeah you need.

Speaker 4 (01:36:41):
More bas movie content, Well, we've got lots for you.

Speaker 3 (01:36:46):
Hell, you can get our merchover at teapublic dot com
slash the Bechdel Cast and uh, until then, folks, let's
go harvest some honey. Tell me bye, okay, bye bye.

Speaker 4 (01:37:04):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by mo La Boord. Our theme song was composed by
Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and
merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks
to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

(01:37:26):
visit linktree slash Bechdel Cast

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

The Bechdel Cast News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Secret Life of Bees with Maya Williams