Videodrome with Melissa Lozada-Oliva

On this episode, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Melissa Lozada-Oliva talk about Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

And please order Melissa's book, Candelaria -- https://bookshop.org/p/books/candelaria-melissa-lozada-oliva/19732642?ean=9781662601804

(This episode contains spoilers)

For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast

Follow @ellomelissa on Instagram.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechde Cast, the questions asked if movies have
women and them all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism, the patriarchy and fast start
changing with the Bechdel.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Cast, Hey Jamie, Yes, I'm gonna try something, Okay, Caitlin,
Long Live the New Flesh Dull Cast. On the Flesh
Dol Cast, the questions asked, why is there a vagina
in my stomach? Someone remix it?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
We don't have much time there.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
And that's past that, and now.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
We get to we should do that every time we
do a body horror movie, is did it pass the
fed the flesh do test?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Is it fleshy enough? I think this movie is gonna
be a hard guest, although I honestly, I mean maybe
this is me being unwell possible. I was kind of like, wow,
I thought there would be more flesh.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
You know, the it takes a while for the flesh
to get going, and then it doesn't ramp up quite
the way I was remembering. I guess I'll talk about
my history. This is the kind of movie I never well,
yeah I dnt. But like whenever I watch a Croninberg
movie or a David Lynch movie or any movie that's
just like, it's a weird it's a weird auteur guy.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Most of the time the David's, the David's are out
there making weird shit.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Lynch is head or miss for me. David Cronenberg almost
never misses. For me, it's it's a whole lot of yes.
But I always picture my like I was doing it
yesterday because Sarah was staying with me, And I always
picture my uncle trying to describe a body horror movie,
and it really enhances the experience for me. It's like,
so there's this.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
Guy and his television has boobs and he's motive boating it,
and I'm supposed to know what the fuck is going
on and I don't.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
It's I highly recommend just having an I do the
same thing with Black Mirror episodes where he's like, this
guy is having sex with his computer in the port.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I mean, that's bry episode. Internal monologue is watching all
of these things in that exact accent.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Also, Uncle Caitlin, Okay, this and this is a show
that exists. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, this is our show where we examine movies through
an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test and sometimes
the Fleshtel test when when needed, when needed, simply as
a jumping off point to initiate larger conversations about representation, inclusivity,
all of that kind of stuff. What is the Bechdel test, though, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Well, the Bechdel Test is a media metric crew I
just created, created by queer cartoonists. I understand where the
words were getting mixed up. I just wanted to say
queer so badly for some reason.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, of course, okay.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel
Wallis Test. A lot of versions of this test. It
originally appeared as a joke in an eighties comic anthology
called Dikes to Watch Out For, but it's since been
adopted as a way to sort of see how gender
is treated in movies, which is usually bad. The version

(03:40):
of the test we use requires that there'll be two
people of a marginalized gender with names who talk to
each other about something other than a man for more
than two lines of dialogue. That's it, low bar. This
movie does pass in a way that I thought was funny.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Oh, I'm glad you paid attention because I didn't as
per usually.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Okay, well, yes it does. But we'll get there because
we have to get our guest in here a returning
three timer four timer three three.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, that means.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
You get a hat. I wish we had hats.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
This means you get a fleshy VHS tape that will
mail to you.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
At five. We start promising that we'll get you a jacket,
but the jacket never materialized ever comes.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, it's true. Anyway. Our guest is a writer. Her
newest book, Candelaria, which is about a Guatemalan grandmother at
the end of the world and how her granddaughters started
it started the apocalypse. It was just released, so you
can read it and buy it and do all the
things with it now. And you know her from our

(04:45):
episodes on is It thirteen? Going on thirty and Spanglish? Right, okay,
what a legacy.

Speaker 5 (04:51):
We also made Manhattan.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
No, no, you made that up. We did cover that movie,
but that was with a different person.

Speaker 5 (04:59):
All right.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Anyway, it's Melissa Losanta Leiva.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Hi, welcome back, welcome back. We love her.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
First of all, tell us about your book.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yes, it's so good. So tell us about it.

Speaker 5 (05:14):
Yes, So my book is it is about a guatemal
and grandmother at the end of the world over the
course of the day, and then it goes back a
year later and you see her Guatemalan American loser granddaughters
and the ways that they start the end of the world.
And there is a fair amount of body horror stuff
with the television screens. Cannibal, Unwanted Pregnancies. Yeah, that's my book.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
So we asked you when you're coming on to promote
the book, we asked you to send us a list
of movies that felt Candelaria adjacent, and you sent Martha,
Marcy May, Marlene Prometheus, Videodrome, and Splice. So we are
covering Video Drome by mister David Kroneberg himself. What is

(06:07):
your connection to Video Drome? When did you first see it?
What's your relationship with David?

Speaker 5 (06:13):
Actually, I've never seen this movie before except to come
on this podcast. But my friend Oz Rodriguez, who did
Vampires Versus the Bronx cool and he was like, oh,
you must love Video Drome And I was like, I
don't know, I've never seen that, and he was I
think you would really like it because there's a lot

(06:34):
of there's like scenes that are similar in my book
to Videodrome with TVs and flesh. So I was like,
talk about it, that could be fun. And I'm from
what I've seen from the clubs I saw of video Drome,
the body horror effects are super goofy, and that's that

(06:55):
was fun.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
I can't wait to read it.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
It's so good. It's the read of the year. I
love it. Wow nice, it's so and also it just
I don't know, it's so I love reading books where
I'm like, I know where they are. Yeah, I'm easy.
I'm easy in that way. It's like I know they're
going to college quarter theater while they're just like me.

Speaker 5 (07:16):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
It's so, it's so so good. That's so funny that
you haven't that you hadn't seen it before. Yeah. I
feel like that comes up pretty frequently, where everyone assumes
that everyone's seen every movie on the planet and you're like, no,
I guess that me and David Cronenberg just both like
the same kind of perverted stuff.

Speaker 5 (07:34):
Yeah, Yeah, it was nice. I wonder why I thought
of this. Also, Yeah, Also, I think I feel like
I've seen I mean, well, we can talk about it.
I feel like movies like an ancestor for a few
other horror movies like The Ring, and I.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Was getting strong Ring vibes from this movie because both
of them are about you watch a mysterious videotape and
then bad things start to happen.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah, I love both of these. I guess that this
is just a subgenre that I love. Kitlin, what's your
history with video drome? Slash the David Cronenberg Expanding Universe?

Speaker 2 (08:15):
So I'm not much of a Kronenberg head. I don't
mind body horror if I feel like it's there for
a reason. But I feel like, at least in videodrome,
I'm like, what does a vagina in your abdomen that
you put VHS tapes into have anything to do with

(08:36):
the like corruption caused by the media kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
I don't know that he knows, and I find that enjoyable.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
I had no idea what he was doing. It's kind
of fun.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
It's so circuitous. It reminded me of like listening to
my pediatrician talk about why watching TV is bad for
you when I was little, and he's like, and I
was like, why is it?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
He like, it's just it just is definitely not good, right,
So I don't really know why the body horror is present.
I know why it is in something like The Fly,
which I've seen, and I haven't seen that one in
a while. I also hadn't seen Video Drum in a
really long time. I watched a handful of actually probably

(09:22):
only two Kronenberg movies in college, and then I was like,
I don't think this is for me, so I didn't
watch any others. But I have a limited experience with Cronenberg.
But I had seen Video Drome, and I really only
remembered the abdomen vagina VCR and the bulging TV that

(09:44):
like throbs and is horny, and that's.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Pretty much it. Love the horny TV.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Jimmie, what's your history with Cronenberg in general? And Video Drome?

Speaker 3 (09:57):
So I haven't seen I had not seen Video Drum,
so I'm not I don't know. I'd like Letterbox users
do not come for me. You can like a director
and not see every single fucking thing they've made. It scarce.
I'm so afraid of movie fans anyway.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Scary.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, but I'm a David Cronenberg fan. I'd seen I mean,
i'd seen The Fly, I'd seen Shivers, I'd seen both
Crimes of the Futures. I'd seen a movie of his
that I don't think people talk about very much, and
I just I don't remember if it's good, but I
definitely remember being affected by it. Dead Ringers. Have either

(10:34):
of you seen that one?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (10:36):
Oh it is Uh it's Jeremy Irons and Genevieve Bougold.
I don't know who that is, but they played twin
twin kind of collegists. Oh my god, and it's just
like the most Cronenburghie thing of all time because they
you just start at kind of like you don't need
to like go through leap through any hoops to get

(10:58):
to where he wants you. To be sure. I love
body orror. I don't need a reason for it. Really.
I do think Cronenberg is so so mommy, like in
the way that like where you're like, well, I think
that that's where his problems lie. That's my guess. It
seems like maybe he has some things to work through

(11:22):
and and maybe he hasn't. But it's been fun to watch.

Speaker 5 (11:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
I liked Video Drome. I love that it's gross. I
love that it's short.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh, I do like that.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Love the horny TV. And I think my general opinion
is I felt like the back half of the movie
moved way slower because I don't care about the James
Woods character. I care about all of the women that
he's meeting that call him ugly. I liked that part
the best, But then you get the horny TV at
the end, so you know it's like it's where it's

(11:53):
worth it, It's worth the ride.

Speaker 5 (11:55):
Sure, I was like, why does this guy look so familiar?
And I realized he played Hercules and I think he
played Hades and her Es. Yes, he modeled his face
and did it kind of look.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, he's the I mean he is the absolute worst
as as a person. Yes, yeah, he.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Has horrible politics, just a troll ghoul of a man.
And I also just hate him as a performer. Him
and like Kevin Costner are just if they're in a movie,
I won't see it because of them. I just hate
seeing them on screen.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
I don't know which one is Kevin Costner. I can't
mix up all I know I like. I mean, obviously
no dispacey, but I think I like Kline. I like
it's Kevin.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah. Well, and then of course Kevin lemonnon my Ken Kevin.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
He belongs in He's an actor named Kevin. I'm being ridiculous. No,
you're not Kevin Klein. Yeah right, Kevin Lemignon. Now we're talking. Yeah, okay, okay,
let's talk about Video Drum, the movie by David Cronenberg
that came out.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
In nineteen eighty three. Thank you, you're so welcome. And
before we do that, let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back and talk about it. We'll be
right back, and we're back, and here is the recap
for Video Drome. We meet Max Wren. That's James Woods.

(13:35):
He's the president of a Toronto based TV station, Channel
eighty three, which shows kind of anything ranging from softcore
porn to violent smut type stuff. And we see him
going around wanting to buy various videos to put on

(13:56):
his channel. Some of it he feels is too soft
and not tacky enough.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
I'm just like, can you do like, could you do
this in Canada? Is it a Canada thing? I feel
like on American TV this would not fly. I'm not
I mean, you show snuff movies on TV in Canada.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
I doubt it. I think this is just like it
takes place in a world where poor like our easily
accessible on television.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
I love, I love a strange and ominous, distant near future.

Speaker 5 (14:31):
Yea, it's nice.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, okay, So this is a Canada where you can
show it's not films on TV and James Wood's job
is to find the scariest ones.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, yes, yes, and so Max Wren finds a show
called video Drome where a woman is being tortured and
eventually murdered, and he thinks this is awesome. He thinks
this is a great fit for his Channel eighty three,
and I like with it.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Once they start saying video drome in this movie, then
people are saying video drome at least once a minute,
and it's used as a noun, and it's uses an adjectivist,
uses a verb. As the movie goes on.

Speaker 5 (15:10):
I don't hear it at first, and they're like what,
and then he's like video drome and then he spells, wait, I.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Have I took a screenshot of one part where I'm like,
this is getting ridiculous in a good way, but it
was James Wood's like, tell me about my video drome? Problem,
and you're like, what are you talking? Like, I really
loved it. They talk about it like it's a place.
At one point it's a brain tumor. Sometimes it's just
kind of a general vibe. You just don't really know.

(15:38):
And by the end, I'm like, I'm no clearer on
what was going on with videos.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
It's like what is video drome? But also what isn't
video drome?

Speaker 5 (15:47):
You know?

Speaker 3 (15:48):
And that's what makes us think.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Yeah, so goofy, I love it.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
So this guy Harlan is helping Max pirate video drum
and what's going on with him?

Speaker 5 (16:03):
Is he he keeps calling him patron.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah right, that's kind of his thing. Yes, and he
wears interesting shirts and that's kind of all you need
to know about. Well, actually no, there's there's a good
twist with him.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Later, there is there is They think video Drome is
coming from Malaysia, but then they realize it's coming from Pittsburgh.
Shout out to Western Pennsylvania.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
Oh my gosh, I'm like, does Pittsburgh claim this movie?
They like, yeah, that's where all the fucked up stuff apens.
If it's too fucked up for Canada, you gotta go
to Pittsburgh. I love Pittsburgh. Shout out the Ketchup Museum.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, yes, of course. Okay. So then Max is a
guest on a talk show along with a guy named
Professor Brian Oblivion.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Great character name, yes, and a.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Woman named Nicky Brand played by Debbie Harry.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
Debbie Harry, she was this.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
She was I think maybe it's just her general hairstyle.
When I looked at her first, I was like, is
that Michelle Pfeiffer. But I think it was just her
hair shape. I love when pop stars are in movies,
and this was like a good pop star role because
it didn't she didn't need to be amazing.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
It's kind of like when Jennifer Lopez was in the Cell.

Speaker 5 (17:23):
Oh yes, I love this.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
It's a bizarre one.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yeah, that's like a subcategory pop pop girlies who cannot
really act. But if but if cast correctly, it's a
fun time.

Speaker 5 (17:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Uh okay. So all of these guests on this talk
show are talking about erotic media and its effect and
influence on society, and it's making me think and we're
thinking about it. But Max is horny, and he's like, hey, Nikki,
you want to go out to dinner?

Speaker 5 (17:56):
With me, he asks her on air television.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, that scene is I think I really liked it.
It's so bizarre. I had to rewatch that scene several
times to be like what, because it's I mean, it's
it's interesting that like, we do know say what you
will about how women are portrayed in this movie. We
will say things about it, but we do know what
everyone's job is, and everyone's job is very weird. It's like,

(18:24):
and she don't. It's so bizarre because it's in that
scene Nikki says the right thing and has the right
values and then immediately does the opposite. And I was like, oh,
I feel kind of seen by that, right, Like I
also know what my values are and constantly disobey them
right the second I get one percent horny.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
So not to mention, because she's just like, we live
in an over stimulated society, and I think that's bad.
And then he's like, well, what about that red dress
you're wearing, you hypocrite, And I'm like, excuse me.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
She's She's like, yeah, the red dress is a bit
much like Oh my god. I thought I really appreciated
the host of the show. I thought she she was
really trying to keep things on.

Speaker 5 (19:11):
Jack while James woods, Yeah, they're the.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Guest like was being actively sexually harassed, but was like, no,
this is cool. And poor poor Rena, she's just trying
to keep things. She's she's talking to a dead guy
on a videotape, doesn't even know it. Marina is just
in it. She's trying to say that sex and violence
on television in Canada is not good.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, damn anyway, So they go on the date Max
and Nikki and she's like, let's watch porn. It puts
me in the mood. And then she puts on Videodrome
and despite its violent nature, she really likes it. Cut
to them naked and while they're having sex or like,

(19:55):
you know, I don't know, hornily canoodling.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
She corn swear to God.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I'm like, I don't know if he's inside her, but
they are canoodling and it's horny.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
So I was I rewatched The Fly recently, and I
wonder Jeff Goldbloom's character in The Fly has you know
his his mattress is basically on the floor, which makes
sense with the character James Wits. I'm like, all these
men have beds that are very low to the ground.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
And you would think if he owns a TV station,
he could do. He has a ford I have.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
He has the budget for it. But I'm just like,
what is it with all these bed frameless protagonists.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
He must Cronenberg, must sleep on the floor himself.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
Oh yeah, it gets it's something something creative. Juice is Yeah,
I used to sleep on a mattress on the floor.
I feel like that is unfairly gendered.

Speaker 5 (20:56):
They're like, oh yeah, dead beat god like a series
like Plastic Tubs from Mikia.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Ooh.

Speaker 5 (21:03):
I was like, and that's.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
That's craft, that's elevation. It feels like a very late
twenty tens kind of meme of like, ugh, this guy
doesn't even have a bed frame. I was like, look,
I can't talk. I slept for a full year. There
is a mouse that crawled in my bed, and then
I had to sleep in the bed with my roommate
who I shared a room with.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
The struggle is universal. If you don't have a bed frame,
you are seeing yes.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Anyway, back to horny canoodling. Oh god, now Max cannot
get video Drome out of his head, and now he
wants all of the shows he buys for his TV
station to be more scandalous and violent, like videodrome because
he's he thinks that's what's next in adult entertainment, and

(21:52):
he wants this woman who he works with, Masha, to
find out who makes video drome so that he can
acquire it legally.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
I guess, okay, Masha, Yeah, awesome character.

Speaker 5 (22:04):
I know.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Why didn't we get more Masha serious? One of the
many I like. Again, one of the things that I
like about this movie is James Wood's character is a
scumbag who sucks, and I feel like Cronenberg loses track
of that because he expects us to care about him
the whole time, which I didn't. But whenever he encounters
a woman, she lets him know that he's a scumbag

(22:28):
who isn't as hot as he thinks he is. And
I really liked that Masha does it. She's like, yeah,
you're a little old for me and Debbie Harry She's like, well,
this has been a fun, you know, two time hookup,
but I'm moving to Pittsburgh. Fuck you, Like you're just
like good, good people should bail on this guy. He's
the worst.

Speaker 5 (22:46):
I also, when you're talking about Cronenberg's mommy problems. I
was like, maybe ma Sasha.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, He's like, even my mom doesn't want to hook
up with me. Maybe my mom thinks I'm old.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah. Isn't there a part where he's like, ooh, we
could take a shower together? And she's like, how about
this hot young waiter who's next to me, I'm going
to hit on him instead.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
I loved Masha, I wish yes more, not enough Masha,
not enough any of the women because I also I
also loved Bianca, but we'll.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Get to her, yes. And I liked Bridi too.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Anyway, So Nick and Max are still hooking up, and
she tells him that she's going to Pittsburgh to audition
for Videodrome, but he doesn't think it's safe. He doesn't
want her to do it, and then she deliberately burns
herself with a cigarette to show him that she means
business or something. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
I don't know. He's just sort of crown and bringing
out that one. That was a fun scene to watch too,
because it just keeps cutting between them, and James Woods
is like, I don't know, She's like, stop us stop,
I won't stop up. Cool. Awesome. Good job you guys.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Good job. So the next day, Max meets with Masha
again and she's like, look, Video Drum is bad news.
What you see on the show, the torture, the mutilation,
the murder, it's not acting. It's real. And then she
tells him that a guy named Brian Oblivion is connected

(24:33):
to Video Drome in some way, and he's like, oh,
I know him. I was on a talk show with him.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
With him, right, He's like, oh, actually, I was sexually
harassing someone while he was talking. So we're basically friends.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
On a TV screen.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, So then Max goes to pay a visit to
Brian Oblivion, but his whole thing is that he refuses
to be in the same room as people. He's only
willing to be seen on a TV screen. Or he
has his daughter Bianca be his liaison. And then Max

(25:10):
is like, okay, well, mention Videodrome to him, and then
I think he will want to talk to me. Then
Max's assistant Bridie comes to his house to bring him
a videotape, and he's now like hallucinating this like bizarre

(25:30):
violent stuff. He has this vision where he assaults Bridey,
but then it's actually Nikki, but then he actually didn't
assault anybody.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
It's we'll come back to that scene that was yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And then she leaves and then he watches the tape
and on it is Professor Brian Oblivion telling him about
video drome.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
And at this point they're saying video drome about every
one seconds?

Speaker 5 (25:59):
What's video Oh, and the tape is breathing when he
puts it in, it starts to breathe.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, it's like pulsing.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's great. It's the effects in this movie. I mean
it like kind of goes without saying the effects in
this movie are absolutely they're cool, wonderful.

Speaker 5 (26:13):
What did they use? Do you think? Have you?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
I haven't looked into who does his practical effects, although
when I was rewatching The Fly recently, I wonder if
it's the same person, because the Fly won an Oscar
for special effects because it was whoa so, I mean deserved.
He really did turn into a fly, if you recall
let's see. Indeed, Yes, I think I think it's the

(26:39):
same guy, Rick Baker.

Speaker 5 (26:41):
Everything's so slimy, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
It's slimy.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
It's throbbing, grabbing ballooney.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Oh wait, no, sorry, he didn't do. He did another
movie that I watched recently called rat Boy. Whoa, but
that's for another day. I'm having a hard time right now,
so I'm watching a lot of watching things like rat Boy.
He's really good. It's essentially Yes, it came out the

(27:08):
same year, so I feel like, you know, the.

Speaker 5 (27:09):
Fly, he was like using the same materials.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, Unfortunately, he did Baker do.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
He didn't do Video Drome, Okay, but he did.

Speaker 3 (27:18):
He did. He did Video Drome, Okay, got it. Other
things he's done include The Exorcist, he did Rat Boy, awesome.
He worked on Star Wars. He did the Thriller music
video special effects. He did that Freaky Beauty and the
beast Ron Pearlman TV show that I love. That was
Hamilton yea, yeah, I love that. Oh my god, so good.

(27:42):
He did Gremlins to the New Batch. Yeah he's got
he Oh my god. He did Jim Carrey Grin Okay. Yes,
he did the Haunted Mansion two thousand and three, which
we just covered. He did the Ring he did Yeah,
he did Molificia.

Speaker 5 (28:01):
So he did the ring and video drum.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
And video drum. It makes you think.

Speaker 5 (28:06):
It all comes back together. We all go through the
abdomen slid together and out Pittsburgh.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
We wear the slits we bore in life. Anyways, not
the same guy as the fly. Okay, accomplished guy, And yeah,
I hope the answers your questions.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
You Okay. So we're seeing Professor Oblivion talk about video
drome and how he started having hallucinations that caused a
tumor in his brain, not the other way around, where
like a tumor that he had was causing the hallucinations.

(28:46):
And then he's like, and then when the doctors removed
the tumor, it was video drome.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
And then you're like, what, so what is no? No,
I just thought I figured out what video drum was.
Now I'm back square.

Speaker 5 (29:00):
So it's like Hakuna matata. It's it's just a feeling.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
That's like part. I mean, that's what's fun about David
Cronenberg's movies is like, very often people are just saying shit,
they're just saying whatever. They're just like all right, and
then we cut to the to the stomach vagina. You're like, yeah,
it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Okay. So then Nikki shows up in this video and
strangles Brian Oblivion and then she's like, we want you Max,
and then his TV starts throbbing and bulging, and then
he makes out with it.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
So then the lady from Blondie is in the television
television has boobs. It's horny. You can stick your head
in it. I had no fucking clue what was going on?

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Five stars yep, okay. So then Max discovers that Brian
Oblivion died nearly a year ago, that he helped to
create video Drome, but then when he realized what it
did to people, he tried to shut it down. But
Bryan Oblivion's business partners didn't want that, so they murdered him.

(30:15):
And then Max starts having even more visions. He hallucinates
that this huge gap opens up in his abdomen aka
his vagina VCR and he shoves his whole hand inside
and puts a gun gun in there?

Speaker 3 (30:34):
What and then that's a I mean, that's a perfect reveal.
There's that he's just dated a gun. Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
I wonder if it's like the metaphor is like the
video tape is just as dangerous?

Speaker 2 (30:52):
WHOA again?

Speaker 3 (30:55):
I was like, did I was? It's so funny because
you're like the intent who knows.

Speaker 5 (31:02):
Yeah, yeah, it wouldn't be cool if there was a
gun in the stomach slit and it's like, yeah, it
would be cool, and it was.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
I liked it, but I was like, yeah, menes date
violence and destruction.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
And then it's like we're just smarter than the movie.
Probably Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
I think it's just just like rick, could we fit
a gun in?

Speaker 5 (31:26):
Yeah? Yeah, or like put a videotape in the well
what is it called? Now? I just want to say, slit?
What was it called? In the video scene in the
VCR in.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
The in the you put the video drome in the
video drome to watch video drome. As a result video.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Then you start video druming all over the place.

Speaker 5 (31:46):
But the action is a little bit like fucking.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yeah, and it feels all very video droum yea. Yes,
the more we talk about this movie, the more I
like it, unfortunately, and the more I just like it
so that a color different flesh doel cast conversation.

Speaker 5 (32:04):
So I had a great time.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yes, well glad somebody did. Okay. So then a man
named Barry Convex approaches Max and very Convex works for
a corporation that makes video video Drum question Mark.

Speaker 5 (32:24):
And they also when did they were the glasses always
are like, I was like, wait, what, how when did
we go to a glasses store?

Speaker 2 (32:31):
So he's like, yeah, my company manufactures and supplies eyeglasses
for I think he said like developing nations or third
world countries or something like that, and we work with
NASA to make like missiles or something I don't know.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Video drum.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
And also they make video Drum. And Max learns that
the videos he has previously where just tests and that
they will be launching Videodrome to the public soon. And
Barry Convex wants to record one of Max's hallucinations and

(33:13):
analyze it because he's concerned for Max and what might
happen to him. So then they like induce this hallucination
and Max has a vision where he's whipping Nikki, but
then we pull out to reveal that he's actually whipping
a TV set that has Masha on it and she's

(33:37):
like feeling the pain of being whipped. And then suddenly
he's out of the hallucination or is he? But he's in.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Bed the drome and that's video drum, classic videodrome moment.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
But he's He's in bed next to Masha, who appears
to be dead, so Max calls Harlan to come over
and take pictures, but then Masha's body is nowhere to
be found, almost as if Max also hallucinated that. So
then Max goes to the video lab where they pirate

(34:17):
and record video Drome because Max wants to see last
night's broadcast. I think he thinks that maybe his hallucination
would be video Drome or something. Again don't understand, but
he learns that there was no video Drome transmitted last night.
In fact, there was never a transmission of video Drome

(34:43):
because what was happening was Harlan was playing Max pre
recorded tapes to get him involved in video Drome. So
it's also a recruitment tool, huh. And then Barry Convext
shows up again. He's like, yeah, Videodrome is a scum

(35:04):
show and only degenerate losers would like it, and that's
why we're going to use your TV station to start
broadcasting Videodrome to a wide audience.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
Are they try? So it was like they they're like
you like this, We're going to kill you? Or like
are we gonna Are they trying to kill the viewers.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Okay, So I didn't quite understand until I consulted scholarly
journal Wikipedia. Okay, And I believe Barry Convex's goal is
he wants to like put an end to this like
media induced cultural decay by.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Giving pediatricians message, right.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And they're gonna do this by giving brain tumors, like
terminal brain tumors to anyone who is so obsessed with
sex and violence that they would watch videodrome. So they're
liberately killing people who they think are like degenerates by
showing them video drome knowing that it will kill them.

Speaker 5 (36:08):
Like I watch this movie, it did not get that because.

Speaker 6 (36:11):
It's not very clear whoa which at least is a
part of this movie's legacy is that it's I was
reading about the production history and like how the first
time the original cut of the movie was like under
eighty minutes long and you really could not tell what.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Was going on. And David Kreunenberg, I mean, I really
like his interviews. He was like, yeah, I guess I
cut the part where you learned that Max works at
the TV station. So people got really confused. I do
feel I don't know, I don't that also wasn't clear
to me on the first viewing. It took me that
till the second viewing to like have it come across clearly,

(36:47):
which is so bizarre because they're talking about video drome
all the time, but because you can't really understand what
it is based on how they talk about it, You're like, well,
I don't how could I possibly? Maybe my brain is
too small.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
No, but no, I think it's it's not super clear.
It's not clear. And because those guys also, like Barry Convex,
makes it seem like video drum is awesome until he's like, no,
it's not. I want to use it to kill people.
And it's like, but wait.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
What Yeah, yeah, okay, I love it.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
So then the vagina slit VCR thing in Max's abdomen
opens up again, and Barry Convex shoves a videotape of something.
I don't know if it's Max's recorded hallucination into it
or it's something else, or if it's just video drum.
What is video drum? Anyway, whatever's on the videotape seems

(37:39):
to be telling Max to kill his business partners and
give Channel eighty three to Barry. Because Barry wants to
use Channel eighty three to broadcast video drum so that
people will watch it and die. So then Max reaches
into his vagina VCR in his abdomen and pulls out

(38:02):
the gun from.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yeah, that he stored in there just wasn't ready before
it was it was still he still had a gun
in the oven or like gun in the oven. Oh no, oh,
I knew that was gonna.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Kick Kaylen Wow, I love a pun in the oven. Also,
so he's like kind of Gregnant with a gun if
you think about it.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Yeah, the gun's name is greg Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So he pulls the greg the gun out, and the
gun kind of permanently fuses to his hand, but only sometimes.
Sometimes it's attached to his hand. Sometimes his has a
regular hands.

Speaker 5 (38:47):
It's a normal gun.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
It's really confusing, but I love. I love the reveal
when he goes to like the dance show. Shortly afterwards,
he's just sitting at a table. He pulls out his
gun hand and you're like, yeah, yeah, really really cool.

Speaker 5 (39:03):
And it's looking like slimy and like it looks like
it really hurts.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
I've been enjoying recently whenever I watch a movie and
something is like so dramatic but doesn't quite hit for
me to just sell say like wow, really cool to
the screen. Cool just to take him down a peg,
got his ass, got his as Wow, really cool, James
Wood gun hand really cool?

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Nice try.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah I really was watching this like that was awes.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
I mean it's a cool effect, it is, Yeah, okay.
So then Max goes to his own TV station and
shoots his business partners with his gun hand, and then
he goes to kill Bianca oblivion and she's like, no,
don't because videodrome is brainwashing you to do this. And

(40:01):
video Drum killed Nicki Brand or someone killed Nicki Brand.
But anyway, she's been dead the whole time, yeah, I think.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Which is also like, well, then how the hell do
we talk about her on the fucking show. She's been
dead the whole time? And I video drum you.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Know, yes, okay, And then a TV set reaches out
with a fleshy hand and shoots Max, but it doesn't
kill him. It just switches the channel away from the
video drome. That's you know, kind of controlling his thoughts

(40:42):
and movements. And now he's compelled by the idea of
death to video Drome Long Live the New.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Flesh, Yeah, which is what is he saying but also
sounds cool, and he says it.

Speaker 5 (41:01):
Also it's like the first time that they've said it,
and there's like ten minutes left and they just.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Keep saying it for the next ten minutes and you're like, oh, yeah,
that phrase we know and love and just hear it.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yes, okay. So then Max goes back to Harlan, who
puts this like fleshy throbbing VHS tape into the vagina VCR.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Cheering, cheering, we love it.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
We're like woo hoo. But his slit eats off Harlan's
hand and then Harlan explodes.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Very teeth two thousand and nine vibes.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Very teeth true.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Then Max goes to Barry Convex's trade show where people
are dancing that's what you were talking about, Jamie, and
Max shoots Barry Convex while he's yelling death to Videodrome,
long Live the New Flesh.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
He gets on the microphone and says it yeah, and
then he doesn't mic drup.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
He's like, Okay, whoa what are you saying at that
trade show? Is just like, well, this weird thing happened
at one point, but other than that, it was a
lovely event.

Speaker 5 (42:15):
I love my new glasses. Yea.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
So he kills Barry Convex, and then Barry Convex's guts
and brains are like wriggling their way out of his body.
And then Max runs off and goes to the harbor
and goes into this like condemned ship and inside is
another TV set and Nikki brand is on it and

(42:39):
she's like, Okay, you damaged videodrome, but you didn't kill it.
It still exists, and to fully destroy it you have
to move on to the next phase Jesus, which means
that he has to become the new flesh and get
rid of the old flesh aka he has to kill

(42:59):
his human body so that he can live inside of
a TV or something.

Speaker 5 (43:06):
Has risen, you know.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:10):
At the end, it was like, Jesus, I.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Despise this character so much. You are not gonna sell
me on a christ allegory at the very end of
this damn movie. Nice try, David, I don't think So.

Speaker 5 (43:23):
He died twice for our sins.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, I got I go sins.

Speaker 5 (43:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
Jesus also famously had a gun in his stomach, so
it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Okay, So Max realizes what he has to do, which
he does. He puts his gun that's fused to his
hand up to his head. He says, long Live the
New Flesh, and then the movie cuts to black as
we hear a gunshot and that's the end of the movie.
So let's take another quick break and we'll come back

(44:01):
to discuss to video drum and then video drum.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
Video drum. We're back. It's video drum to video drum.
You're watching video drum and that's messed up? Or is it?
But it is?

Speaker 2 (44:19):
What if?

Speaker 3 (44:20):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
What if the Bechdel cast has the same effect on
people as video drum and it's like brainwashing.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
It makes them want to kill people.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Let's hope not. Anyway, where do we start?

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Oh boy, well, I kind of. I mean, let's let's
start by talking about women, as we have been known
to do from time to time over the years. Yeah, yeah,
I think that, Like it's Cronenberg. I was sort of
reviewing the many waves of discourse that has gone around

(44:55):
about David Cronenberg's movies because they're so body horror focused,
because they're very often body horror focused in a way
that feels like explicitly like things are happening to women
or it's about women. And there's been a few different ways,
like some I think I read some mid twenty tens
discourse that argues his entire body of work is inherently misogynists,

(45:20):
which I disagree with. But then there's moments where I
don't like. I think I just find him confusing enough
that I'm maybe overly excusing things. But there's I don't know,
as far as videodrome goes, I'm not like offended by
anything that is being explored. I just am like, Wow,
this guy really has some things to figure out about

(45:44):
how he feels about I don't know, I don't know
what did What did you all think about? I guess
especially like the body horror specifically, and then we can
sort of go character by character A stomach vagina, I say, sure.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
I mean, I mean we've talked about vagina monsters in
a lot of movies, and specifically which horror movies.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Which he is a huge proponent of, and I think that,
like I guess, the closest you can get is with
the with the various vagina monsters we've covered. It's like
usually a male hoteur that maybe sees a vagina as
something very threatening and confusing that wants to destroy, and
there's elements of that here, because it's like that is

(46:29):
like the thing that you are inserting the tape into
very heteronormative body horror in order to like destroy.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
But then he like uses it. It starts being this
like freaky thing and then it becomes him and then
the character like accepts it and it's almost good. I
don't know, right.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Well, yeah, it's like by the end of the movie,
this movie's so confusing, yeah, because it's like there are
certain we've got a variety of slits here. We've gotten
the video drome slit and that that is like a
source of evil and chaos. But then by the end,
the James Woods stomach slit is a source is like
what saves him, but also he kills people with it.

(47:10):
So you're like, I don't know, I don't know. I
think it is safe to say that David Cronenberg's a
big fan of the vagina monster. There's I really want
to rewatch the Twin Gynecologist movie because there maybe that's
a Patreon thing, but it's just bizarre, and like I

(47:31):
think part of because I just rewatched The Fly as well,
it's interesting that these are Usually it's like the male
protagonist that's undergoing the body horror physical transformation, and women
suffer as a result of it. Women bear witness to it,
but it's mostly like the body horror is their problem.

(47:51):
It's not something that they are experiencing.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
Yeah, Like at the end, Nikki's like, you're still changing,
and it's like she's talking to like a little sister
getting her period or something like there's still you're still
becoming like the woman you need to be or I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Or like Geena Davis in The Fly, like she's just
taking care of Jeff Goldblum as he turns into a fly,
showing him compassion and sympathy and like, you know, stuff
that good qualities. But it's just like, yeah, this is
just her problem. This, Yeah, And I think that that
is like an interesting thing to explore. I don't think
it's done particularly well in video drum, though, I.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Guess I appreciate that because so much body horror in
horror movies is at the expense of women, and it's like,
look at this woman who is like over fifty, right
and or not attractive by traditional Western beauty standards, and
therefore she's a hag who is like slimy and rotting,

(48:58):
and all the body horror is like right at the
expense of her like size and age, and it's just
like a very heightened grossness that is attributed to or
like connected with or conflated with like an older woman.
That's what so much of body horror is. So I
appreciate that the movie isn't doing that, but I think

(49:21):
it's just.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
I think that women are just like sort of incidental
to this story in a way that makes it and
so I think, like, yeah, having and again this is
like very obviously we'd like, I don't want to be
overly prescriptive in describing women as inherently connected to vaginas,
but it the way that like, it's it's bizarre to

(49:46):
see so much vagina specific body horror while most of
the women are incidental to the story, right, You're like, yeah,
it feels like having it both ways in a way
that feels undercooked. I don't know. I feel like there
are some directors in their body of work where you
can feel kind of an open hostility towards women, and

(50:06):
I don't feel that in David Cronenberg's work. I think
he just kind of like doesn't understand them well enough
to write them.

Speaker 5 (50:12):
I wonder he seems really like fascinated because I mean,
I mean, I feel like I would argue that he's like,
I don't know, having the slit is making him like
a woman. Again, not saying that having a vagina makes
you a woman, but it seems like he's like really
fascinated by like female suffering and he's like it must
be so hard to have all these holes and like things.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
And things come out of them like igor and I
don't understand. Yeah, I think he's like I get the
impression that he's like scared of women.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, right, which is like good he should be. He
should be afraid of us, But like, I don't know,
it feels like a curiosity fascination that never I mean really,
and even though I'm a fan of his work, he
never quite he never gets it. It's so funny because

(51:06):
it's like when you watch like a Julia du Cerno movie,
she gets it frame one and that's but like I
feel like Chroniberg has like spent a lot of his
career being like women, what's going on there, what's going
on with their bodies? And why he doesn't quite get there.
But I don't think it's like an offensive or for

(51:27):
the most or at least in the space of this movie.
I just am like, he's just a little all over
the place with it. Yeah, and I guess I wish well, actually, Kaitlyn,
speaking to your point, Yeah, that, like you see, I
always think of the Shining when we talk about like
making a woman over fifty just inherently grotesque, the scariest thing.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
The Shining VI Suspiria eighteen Ye just discussed. There's countless examples.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
So so many in a way that feels just like, oh,
this is a reflection of the values of who's making it.
They're like, oh, yeah, well, older woman equals scary, grotesque, nasty.
But yeah, I mean you have in with Masha. You
do have an older woman in this movie who is
I mean, she does experience. That's the tricky part, because
it's like Masha is just kind of generally a fabulous

(52:14):
character and like she is not subject to the kind
of like leering cruelty that you would often see older
women be subject to.

Speaker 5 (52:27):
She's almost sextualized also like.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Yeah, like she's like a cool, hot, horny older lady.
But then as the movie, it's the same thing with
the Debbie Hairy character, where it feels like they're being
presented pretty non judgmentally, but then they experience suffering later on.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Well, right, so this is what I don't I mean, well,
this is what I don't get, and I also don't
get everything else. But so every woman you see is
brutalized at some point in the movie, either by Max
Wren actually physically, or it's a part of his hallucination,

(53:04):
or maybe it's always him hallucinating but some of it's
self inflicted, or is it just Max when hallucinating that
because you see various like when Nikki burns herself with
a cigarette and or she wants Max to like inflict
cutting on her. So I don't know what to make

(53:27):
of any of that, because the movie is also asking us.
The movie is like, hey, let's root for this guy,
or at least the movie is following a man who
is obsessed with snuff film where women are being brutalized.
He thinks it's awesome. He hears that it's real, and
that women are actually dying. He doesn't deter him. He

(53:50):
is like, yeah, more of this and then yeah, you
see various scenes where he assaults a woman or hallucinates
that he has assaulted a woman.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
But it's like, that's what It's so confusing to me
that by the end we're supposed to be like yeah,
James Woods, because it felt are we like I don't,
I don't know, that's the confusing.

Speaker 5 (54:12):
Like well, I feel like in like a like another David,
the other David Lynch who's like like Twin Peaks, that
Bob character is supposed to represent like the evils of man,
you know, and I feel like maybe David Cronenberg is
like James Woods is like the evils of man.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
I think he's I think he's trying to do like
a pro woman thing in this movie, but like in
a really goofy way that not necessarily effective, but him
being like you see how bad men can be.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yeah, well and that came through. That came through for
me at a bunch of points. But yeah, it's I mean,
it's whatever. This is just like kind of classic ou
tour man director thing where it's like, yeah, this is
a pro women movie where all of the women are
brutalized and they disappear halfway through the movie. But it
is very pro women and I have proof in your

(55:04):
like exact whatever. But like, yeah, I mean I don't
think that we're supposed to be like cheering for James Woods.
I think it's just because the movie becomes so narrowly
focused on him specifically as the movie goes on, because
we get this spread of a lot of interesting characters,
but then they're you know whatever, killed off, brutalized, We're
dead the whole time, all this confusing stuff And yeah,

(55:24):
there are so many which is wild because there's so
many interesting women in the space of this story that
kind of like get lost. I think Nicky I don't
love her arc but she has one, but it's like Masha,
she kind of disappears. Bianca like that sort of gets
dropped a little bit. I'm like, bring back poor Rena.

(55:45):
The host like Bridey is just sort of a witness
to violence and keeps showing up for James Woods. Anyways,
there's a lot of women in this movie, but they
but like they don't have And I liked h with
the Bianca character. I liked where you sort of start
with her where she's you know, I mean, it turns

(56:05):
out she's saying this because her dad has been dead
for a year. But she's like, my father and I
don't have conversations he has, we have. He does monologues
and like examining that and like that father daughter relationship,
and you're like, that's interesting. But then it kind of
gets dropped as well. I don't know. There was so
much interesting stuff presented in this movie, and I think

(56:26):
I just was sort of bummed that it ends up
zoning in on what it does, because it felt like
there was a lot to explore.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
A if it's if the movie is like commentary on
you know, the corruption and the moral decay of society
that is caused by mass media and like excessive violence
and like exploited sexuality on TV, which I was like, Okay,

(56:57):
what is that? What Cronenberg trying to say? Like what
has he said about this movie and like what his
intentions are with it? And I found a quote in
an interview where Cronenberg says, quote, it's very hard for
me to say what Videodrome is about. In a sense,

(57:17):
I think it's totally misleading to say it's a criticism
of television or that it's an extension of network. I
think he's referring to another movie he made called Network
of Blood, but I also don't know what he means
by that anyway. Back to the quote, I think it's
totally misleading to say that it's a criticism of television
or that it's an extension of network or something like that.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
It really is.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Exploring what I've been doing all along, which is to
see what happens when people go to extremes in trying
to alter their total environment to the point where it
comes back and starts to alter their physical selves.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
Unquote, I think he's referring to them movie Network, which
is also about TV.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I thought that too, maybe right exactly, so that is
possibly what he meant as well. In any case, that
quote is just as confusing to me as the plot
of the movie. So I still don't know quite what
he's saying or what his intentions were with Video Drum.

Speaker 5 (58:19):
He's just like, I just have ideas that I want
to floor.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
I just thought horny TV and kind of just like
went from there.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
But because like everyone else left for the day and
you're home all alone and you get horny because you
want to watch.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Horn But like, what if that was like a cool,
smart movie. Yeah, I don't that's surprising to hear because
I felt like that was like what the movie was
circling around, which I don't even think, Like I don't
even disagree with that message. It feels dated in a
way where it's like, I don't know, sex and violence
on TV is corrupting our children. Yeah, it's very like

(58:55):
Reagan era kind of messaging, and it's interesting seeing it
in kind of like an art movie. This like sort
of it feels like a very like I don't know,
authoritative like this. I remember having to write an essay
about why violence on TV was bad for me in
the fifth grade in like whatever, the two thousands, and
it's like this is just like messaging that's been coming

(59:16):
out as forever and it's I mean, it's obviously a
more complicated issue than that. I like, yeah, I don't think,
you know, young people should watch a shitload of sex
and violence on TV, but I think when it's like
prescribed to everyone where it's like no one can watch
sex and also the fact that and I think that

(59:37):
Kronenberg I don't know, maybe he isn't trying to say this,
but like conflating sex and violence as like equally damaging
images to take in, because those are always the two
things that are brought up as like, well, this is
what's fucking people up. And you're like, I'm I'm willing
to say violence is, yeah, but sex not so much.

(01:00:00):
But I don't. I mean, apparently he didn't mean any
of that in that way, and so so who I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Know knows, But I still think, like, you know, he's
focused on the extreme of what people might do in
response to like being influenced by sex and violence. I
keep thinking of the theme song for Family Guy, where
she's like fine lanced in movies and sex on TV.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Oh, yes, we should cover Family Guy on this show.

Speaker 5 (01:00:30):
Oh okay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
But I guess he's like criticizing the extreme of what
that might do to people. But I also, I don't know,
I'm just like it feels like a weird Oh you're
you're blaming people for being corrupted by media without stopping
to think, like, Okay, who is making most of mass media?

(01:00:57):
Why are those people making this media? What their values?
What do they think is marketable?

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
And the answer is that the Max character is doing
though right, like he kind of represents the like curator
aspects of like and and this shame like I guess
going back to like him not being a character we're
rooting for, is that, like he is the one that
is curating all of this, like with with no care

(01:01:27):
about like who's going to see it. It's just about
profits and keeping the station on air. So I feel
like there is like common but again it's it's it
gets so muddled that it's confusing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Especially by the end, where it's like, right, if he's
like an I guess not even an anti hero because
we're not, like, I'm not on board with anything he's doing.
But if the movie is trying to comment on something,
then why do we keep following his journey? And then
it's like, Okay, he has to destroy video Drone, But

(01:02:04):
it's not because of any conclusion he draws himself. It's
because like his brainwashing just got switched over to now
Bianca Oblivion is brainwashing him or kind of controlling him
or something, and it's all just too I don't know.
It's just one of those movies where it's like it's
it's too experimental. Almost to I actually have like a

(01:02:27):
clear narrative, so it's hard to analyze in any meaningful way.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Yeah, it's hard to meet the movie where it's at,
because I have no idea where it's at.

Speaker 5 (01:02:36):
I know, yeah, I think it's like a part of
a League of or just like a string of movies
where men are concerned about technology becoming autonomous, and I
don't know, maybe in a way technology is woman video
drone right right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Well that's like the other thing too, is like yeah
woman is machine. Was like, yeah, yeah, okay. We talked
a little bit about Nikki. I wanted to go back
to her for a second because she's a very confusing character.
And then you're sort of told like, well, don't worry
about how confusing it was because she was dead and
so she was a hallucination, so like, don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
The inception effect, yes always yes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:21):
I kind of thought that they knew each other already
in like a better call soul way where I was like, oh, there,
they're just.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I'm confused about like how she could have been dead
the whole time if we see her in person so much,
it's like she was on TV. I'm assuming other people
could see her. She couldn't have been in a hallucination way.

Speaker 5 (01:03:39):
She was dead the whole time or when she went
to Pittsburgh not.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Clear anyways, So it is it is the inception effect
where you're like, well, can we even talk about this
character as a woman if she strictly theoretically exists as
the projection of a man? Right? Oh, we don't really know,
but for the sake of doing it anyways, one thing
I did, like, I don't know, and I probably accidental

(01:04:05):
from Cronenberg, but how she like said like, yeah, there
is too much sex and violence on TV, and I
worry about how it affects people. And then she like
immediately bails on anything she was saying the second that
she gets horny, and I was like, okay, I've done that, yeah,
fair enough. But and then like she's you know, into

(01:04:25):
like sato masochistic stuff. Yeah, I feel like, I mean,
I've seen that presented worse in movies where it's like
at very least like in the scenes where it happens,
there is I I was like, okay, nineteen eighty three,
like there is like consent involved, Yeah, And she says

(01:04:46):
like this turns me on I want you to do
this to me, and so it it. I don't know.
I think in a way that if that those conversations
hadn't happened, it would have been creepy gaulish and the
stuff that we see pray frequently.

Speaker 5 (01:04:58):
It's something that she wants.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Yeah, it's something that she asks for and uh, you
know whatever, he's happy to do it and that's the business.
But I don't know, I just wanted to give that
little crumb of like, all right, good job movie. Consent,
Yeah took place.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
But I don't know exactly what the movie is saying.
But it also seems to be conflating like like a
sado masochistic kink with corruption, right, yeah, for sure, and
that she's doing this because of like she has this
kink because she's been corrupted.

Speaker 5 (01:05:35):
In the hypnotizing and oozled right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Like it's part of the moral decay of society.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
You can only be kinky if you've watched video drum,
you're like, well, no, some people are kinky and then
they go to work. Yeah. I don't know, again, a
mixed bag, but I was surprised at consent being presented
at all in a movie from the early eighties true,
and then we have I mean we've talked about Masha.

(01:06:03):
I feel like she's just like a generally under serviced character,
and then she comes back to be like we she disappears,
and then she comes back to be abused, and then
she's really gone. Bianca, I think, is a really interesting
character who is also kind of dropped throughout the movie.
I don't know, Yeah, we just had a lot of
interesting beginnings and.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
No follow through. I mean, I guess Bianca comes back
around because she's the one who's like, I release you
from your control. Videodrome has over you, but now you
have to carry out my agenda, right death to Videodrome.
Long Live the New Flesh, which, like you know, I

(01:06:45):
don't know what that means, but it's a woman in
chard but.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
It's active, it's active. Yeah, I mean she's like running
her dad's weird business question mark after he dies. I mean,
she's she definitely moves the platforward quite a bit. But
just like like with most of the characters, you're like,
what is going on with her?

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Like, yeah, despite knowing that her philosophy is long Live
the New Flesh, because I don't exactly understand what that
means or what her actual values are. I could not
like ever get a handle on what she actually wants
or what she's trying to do because she's so cryptic

(01:07:27):
in the way she.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Talks, right, which she takes after her father in that way. Yes,
but yeah, I mean I think it would have been
interesting and again was just given her more to do,
and like if maybe she had had a different vision
for video drum than her father. Wasn't just carrying out
his wishes and was like had her own vision. I mean,
there were so many ways that this movie could have

(01:07:50):
been eaten just as like gross and confusing, and the
many women we meet could have been like more meaningfully
involved than it had, like moved the plot along in
a more interesting way.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Especially because like all of the I mean videodrome whatever
it may be, but when we see it, when it's
the version of him watching a videotape or some like
broadcast or what he thinks is a broadcast, where it's
a naked woman being brutalized, and it's unclear if it

(01:08:29):
is acting, it's unclear if it's actually real. It's unclear
if this woman is like consenting to what's happening or
if she's not whatever it is, because it's so unclear,
you just sort of have to maybe guess that she's
being tortured against her will and then apparently murdered. And

(01:08:52):
I guess my point is, like, because so much of
the violence we see is directed at women, why then
do we not see like women try to rise up
and fight against this? Or I don't know, it's just like, right,
everyone seemed I mean, speaking of oblivion, Brian oblivion, everyone

(01:09:12):
just kind of seems oblivious as to what's happening, or
like when, for example, when Masha finds out like it's
not acting, it's real, why does she not do something
to try to stop it?

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Or yeah, it's it is confused. Yeah, again, it's obviously
very different because the time is different and the director
is so unique and I like him a lot, but
like it reminds me of yeah, like the wave of
movies that came out post Me Too from famous male
directors that were like, all right, I gotta say something,

(01:09:49):
but what am I gonna say? And you're just girls,
We've been pretty mean to him, right, and like just
it's all kind of is like even if the intent
is good, which it isn't always necessarily. I think in
Cronenberg's case, I don't feel animosity towards women. I just like,
what do you really have to say?

Speaker 5 (01:10:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
About you know? But that's fine. I don't know. Is
there anything else people? I wanted to talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Nothing that I can articulate into words because I can't
understand what I saw. But fun fact, so I think
a couple of years before this, Kronenberg directed a movie
called Scanners, which was a box office success, which led
him to be offered Return of the Jedi. Wow, people like,

(01:10:40):
you should direct Return of the Jedi because Scanners was
a hit, and He's like, no, I don't want to
direct any material produced by other filmmakers. So he turned
it down. But can you imagine what a Kronenberg Return
of the Jedi would have been? I cannot. Another fun fact,

(01:11:00):
different endings were shot this movie. Yes, I was once
again consulting scholarly journal Wikipedia.

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
Yeah, I was.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
One of them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Was the ending we see in the film, which was
apparently James Woods's idea. He's like, what if I shoot
myself on the ship?

Speaker 5 (01:11:19):
So Jeremy strong of him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Another ending was Max Bianca and Niki appear on the
set of Video Drome, and Bianca and Nicky also have
the slits in their abdomen, out of which come like
mutated sex organs, like they pop out of their slits

(01:11:45):
like that, and that would have been cool. And then
another ending featured an orgy where Max, Bianca and Nicki
have sex and there's different like I think body horror
sex organs that are they're using in the orgy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
I feel like this is just like a really fun
h illustration of how like, yeah, Cronenberg is just like horny.
He's like, well, here's three different horny endings and we'll
just kind of see which one is.

Speaker 5 (01:12:19):
The horn that ended with the ladies. If the ladies
came back.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
That would be yeah, I mean, that would be closer
to what it seems like he wanted to do now
that I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:12:29):
Like, if the girls had slits, do you think Cronenberg
is thinking of it as a vagina or just a slit?

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:12:37):
I wonder if you've never never even occurred to him.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
Oh, that would be embarrassing for him, But I don't.
I genuinely don't know. I like because all of his interview,
all the interviews around this as illustrated are baffling and
do not support what I thought he was trying to
say so hilarious.

Speaker 5 (01:12:58):
I don't know, have you seen Brandon cherryfle No, it's
a show. I think I'm one of three people have
seen it. But there's a scene where she keeps throwing
up these cats and because like a witch put a
curse on her, and I want to stop throwing up
these cats, like stop it, and she's like, fine, you
won't throw up any cats. And then she gets a

(01:13:18):
slit in her rib cage and it's like this rib
cage vagina, and she keeps like birthing these little cats,
and then eventually she gets fucked in her rib cage
vagina with a hand. Oh it's very similar.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
I see.

Speaker 3 (01:13:31):
I love body horror so much.

Speaker 5 (01:13:32):
I feel like, why would you do that?

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
Stop.

Speaker 5 (01:13:37):
I went to the Medieval Museum and I was like,
oh my god, people are putting boobs on necks. You know,
a slit can go anywhere. I mean, yeah, uh.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
The only other thing I wanted to comment on was
and I think these characters are supposed to like represent
the like industry and how the values of like the
entertainment industry are usually weird because it's run by sis
had white men mostly, but it's those guys who are

(01:14:11):
like watching that porn in the beginning that they think
is like too soft and innocent, right, just like the
way that they're talking about like porn from East Asia
and how they can like capitalize on like fetishes and
stuff like that. It just like felt icky, but I
think it's supposed to be icky, but no one really
challenges it in the scene, so I'm not totally sure.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
And come back either well, and then you have that
like that exchange at the end that also felt very
Reagan era where he's like North Americans are too soft, yea,
And it just felt like they were talking about stuff
that supernationalistic people still talk about today of like you know,
everyone out east is coming for us, and I'm like,

(01:14:56):
I don't even know if he was thinking about. Yeah, yeah,
it did feel exactly. And then you're like, and that's
why we need to have snuff films in Canada, and
you're just like, huh, a little convoluted, a little bizarre,
but yeah, it just felt like that scene in particular
was like so eighties in a way. And I'm not

(01:15:17):
trying to suggest that I think Cronenberg feels that way obviously,
like the bad guys are the ones saying it. But
it was just like, well, what's all this? Then? What
is he trying to say? And then in the interviews
it seems like he's not sure. He doesn't know, however,
says that this movie passes the Bechdel test in a
fun way to tell me it passes. During the TV

(01:15:40):
broadcast between Rena and Niki Oh right, Rena says, what
about it? Nikki? Is it socially positive? And she says, well,
I think we live in overstimulated times. We crave stimulation
for its own sake, We gorge ourselves on it. We
always want more, whether it's tactile, emotional, or sexual. And
I think that's bad. And that's the exchange the passes.
I mean, James Woods, is there no one is talking

(01:16:00):
to or about him?

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
True, But then right after that, he's like, you hypocrite,
You're wearing a red dress, which is like the whole like,
oh but what was she wearing? Did she was she
asking for?

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
It? Is like the.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Vibes that conversation gives off.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
That's why I thought it was a funny pass because
she immediately is hit on and never speaks to a
woman for the rest of the movie. Again. Right after
that exchange.

Speaker 5 (01:16:26):
It is it's so true to life. You can pass
the Bechdel test in real life and then base yourself is.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Great relatable yeaheah, Well, what about our nipple scale though,
the perfect metric on which we write a movie zero
to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46):
Lens like bo.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
But I'll give the movie one vagina slit ooh and
interpret that how you will. But what I mean by
that is I'll give the movie one nipple because I
think there is commentary to be made on the way
media influences individuals and society. In fact, that is what

(01:17:15):
our show is. We are commenting on that media influence.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
But this is basically video drum.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
We are video drum. If you were wondering what video
drum was the whole time, the answer is it's the
Bechdel cast. But I think we usually make sense and
present a clear analysis, whereas I don't really know what
Cronenberg is saying half the time, and he's often showing
a bunch of brutalization of women in a way that

(01:17:47):
I don't really know what his intentions are, and yeah,
just not really characterizing the women in a way that
makes any sense, and not letting them have fully fleshed
out stories or really contribute anything to this story aside
from and twist they were dead for a long time,

(01:18:08):
or twist they were a hallucination, or you know whatever.
None of it makes sense to me, And I'll give
it one nipple and I'll give it to w Harry.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
I'm gonna I'm gonna go two and a half on
this one. I agree with you, Caitlin. I think that
this movie is like kind of like I mean, it's
visually incredible, but story wise really messy and confusing, and
it sounds like Cronenberg struggled to get this movie to
a place where it even sort of made sense, and

(01:18:42):
it still kind of doesn't. But I'm gonna give it
two and a half because I like the women that
we meet. I think that at least the first half
of this movie I really enjoyed because you get a
wide spread of women, they have a widespread of opinions,
we know what their jobs are, they're cool, it seems
like the movie respects them. And then in the back

(01:19:04):
half that kind of goes away in a way that
I found really frustrating, and then tried to end on
this like sort of pro woman's sort of anti media
message that fell flat because I just feel like the
James Woods character is just like so repugnant that I

(01:19:25):
struggled with it. But I think it was like an
attempt to say a lot of things. I think I
agreed with what he was saying for the most part,
and I just like David Cronenberg's I'm probably ranking it
too high. Two and a half nipples from me. I'm
going to give one to Debbie Harry, I'm gonna give
one to Masha, and I am going to give one

(01:19:45):
to the waiter that or the half to the waiter
that Masha had sex with.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
Melissa.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
How about you.

Speaker 5 (01:19:53):
I think were given three stars, and I think the stars,
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, believable. I'm so sorry, the stars
are over the covering them up because.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Because because we can't be seeing sex gets too scandalous
and it will corrupt us.

Speaker 5 (01:20:11):
All exactly, and we're not in Canada and we can't
see lude stuff on local access television or whatever. I think, well,
I think I just like I don't know if he's
like the first guy to like do this, but it
is interesting seeing like similar imagery like in movies now,

(01:20:33):
like in Cam or like even in Big Mouth where
kid gets so like addicted to his phone that the
phone starts like horny talking to him, and like I
found it fun for him to. I like seeing him
like explore these ideas of like like addiction to screen
and sex and corruption and in like a almost not

(01:20:54):
primitive way, but just like in it's like the beginnings
of someone thinking about this, and it's never like fully
formed thought, but I'm like, oh yeah, like people are
still thinking about this and you know, worried about like
brain damage with screens and horn and that kind of thing.
And I also I really liked the DeBie Hairy character,

(01:21:17):
the Masha character. It was it's cool to see an
older woman be be funny and sassy. And I think,
I mean as like fugged up as it is. The
scene where he's like whipping the screen and she's on
it is like really a tour interesting. But yeah, I
mean I think, like I'm like, what if a woman

(01:21:39):
did this, I think maybe it would be better.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
Yeah, Well, it's like and I feel like Cronenberg's work
at least paved the way for women's body horror that
I like much better. I feel like, without Cronenberg, you
probably wouldn't have a Julia du Cernaut down the line.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (01:21:58):
So I appreciate it from that because yeah, I just
feel like because she's.

Speaker 5 (01:22:03):
My favorite, right, Yeah, and I think she's a lot
more successful and like talking about grand unified theory of
female pain or whatever or whatever or whatever. So yeah,
and I watched it and I was like, oh, yeah,
this is kind of a similar to my book, but

(01:22:23):
as a woman, a woman a video drum experience, I'm like, oh,
I think I I explored it in a different way,
but you'll have to booth to understand what I mean.
And Okay, so the three nipples go to Debbie Harry
and oh the girl who wakes him up in the morning,

(01:22:45):
and it's like, this is your.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
Own oh BRIDI his assistant.

Speaker 5 (01:22:47):
Yeah, yeah, she was cool, and I'm going to give
one to the to the chest pussy the amins lit
she so hard.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
It's our video cassette recorder, more like vagina cassette recorder.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
Hell yeah, Melissa, thank you so much for coming back.
On the show.

Speaker 5 (01:23:10):
Thank you for having me again so fun, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
My gosh, and remind us where we can get your
book and where we can find you on the internet.

Speaker 5 (01:23:17):
You can get my book wherever they're sold, preferably not Amazon,
local bookstore, bookshop, dot org, eBay. And you can follow
me at E L L O Melissa on all social
media platforms.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
O hell, Yes, you can follow us on social media
platforms at Bechdel Cast. You can go to our Patreon
slash Matreon at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where
you'll get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access
to the back catalog of well over one hundred bonus episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
Yeah, and you can also get our merch at teapublic
dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. With that, let's pull
a gun out of our slits and videodrome.

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
Whatt's video drome all the way home.

Speaker 5 (01:24:17):
Boom boom, bye bye