What's Love Got To Do With It? (2022) with Saadia Khan

This week, we have an arranged recording with special guest Saadia Khan to discuss What's Love Got To Do With It? (2022).

(This episode contains spoilers)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and Beast start changing
it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey, Caitlin, yeah, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Do you want to go to a to a treehouse
and smoke cigarettes and or makeout?

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (00:25):
But I do. For some reason, one of us should
pretend to not remember it happened until the end. It'd
be like, no, I totally remembered it, and then we'll
start making out again.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then do you want to watch
a whole TV series with me?

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Honestly no, but I don't want to do that with anybody.
What if, also, I was sort of it depends on
the series, right.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Well, what if it's the Jinks.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
If it was, of course, pursue this jinx, I would
watch it again. But what if she was like SVU
and You're like, no.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
That's such a commitment thirty thirty years worth of TV.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
I can't do that.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Shout out to the episode of Law and Order SVU
that I was an extra in, Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Do you know how I mean? It's just so like,
there's so many episodes. How would we find it? I
would watch that episode with you and then we could
make out we can't smoke cigarettes. I hate cigarettes?

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, me too, right, I.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Think was how the negotiation should have gone in the
tree house. Anyways, Welcome to the Bechel Cast. My name's
Jamie Loftus, my.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show where
we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate
a larger conversation about representation in film. And such a
freaky little diving board.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
And yeah, we are covering. I think this is one
of the more recent movies we have covered in recent months.
I feel like for some reason, we have been really
not trapped, but like really in two thousand and three
to two thousand and six. It's just kind of where
we've been living, which is interesting because it was such

(02:11):
a bizarro time. So I'm thrilled to be propelled into
the present with a modern rom com. I think a
genre that isn't getting much love these days.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
It's true, I think that the whole genre needs an update. Honestly,
and I think that this movie What's Love Got to
Do With It? Question Mark from twenty twenty two does
interesting things to give like a modern spin on rom
com tropes, and I'm excited to talk about them.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
I agree. Yeah, this movie. It's a very sweet movie.
It's a very realm commy movie. But there's way more
to it. And it's also I mean, it has an
interesting backstory and it also it's so nice to watch
a roalm com where you don't need to, at least
to the same degree, like trudge through these dated tropes
and be like, Okay, I have to make excuses in

(03:06):
my head. I have to like do a mission impossible
like laser thing to get to be able to enjoy this.
It's it's a modern rom com, yes, imagine.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
And to be clear, this is not the What's Love
Got to Do With It? The nineteen ninety three biopic,
I don't know, I've never seen it. It's a drama.
It's a mute Tina Turner. This is not that movie.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's a really incredible performance. I will say. I think
maybe one of my biggest notes with this movie is
why did they call it this when that is already
a famous movie. It's so confusing and it's so hard
to find. However, you should find. I honestly think that
you should. There should be a double feature programmed somewhere
where you just watch both what What's Love Got to

(03:54):
Do It? It's especially I think I would do ooh,
this is my Barbenheimer for What's Love Got To Do
With That? Both? I would say that the Tina Turner
biopic first, and this as as a lighthearted palate cleanser,
because What's Love Got to Do with It? The first
one has pretty pretty, it gets it gets intense.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Sure, I've never seen it, so I can't speak to it.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
We'll cover it on What's Love Got to Do With It?

Speaker 1 (04:20):
March over on the Matreon.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
But so anyway, we're covering the twenty twenty two film
written by Jemima Khan, directed by Shaikhar Kapor, and we
have an amazing guest here to discuss this movie with us.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
We certainly do. She is the producer and host of
the podcast Immigrantly and the co producer and co host
of the podcast Invisible Hate. It's Sadia Khan. Hi, Hi,
how are you look so good? How are you?

Speaker 4 (04:50):
I am good and I'm so excited to dissect this
movie with you, but justin if I. When I recommended it,
I realized it's only available on Prime with like you
have to rent it, and I felt so bad. I
was like, oh my gosh, do we have to really
rent it? I don't know how you washed it away

(05:10):
you watched it, but I I rented it, watched it,
and then recommend it.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes, we all gave Jeff bezos are four dollars.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
I gave I don't remember who missus YouTube is. I
gave missus YouTube four dollars.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Wow, okay, nice.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
So it could be an equally evil transaction. I'm not
really sure. It probably is, probably, you know, statistically.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah. I had to detox myself after that, but that's fine.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Right right, Yeah, anytime you give Jeff Bezos money, you
just have to take like a long, a long shower
and feel like, right right, it will be better, I
know it.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
And then like donate to a local mutual aid effort.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
So, Sadia, what's your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 4 (05:58):
So it's interesting how until I was finalized to come
on your show, I wasn't really thinking of watching this.
I had heard of it. There was so much buzz
around it. The screenplay is written by Jemi Makhan. She
is ex wife of former Pakistani Prime Minister Imraan Khan,

(06:20):
who was a very very famous cricketer in the eighties
and nineties and I had a huge crush on him.
I still do, but he's alust seventeen now I think
he is. He used to be a lot harder, but anyways,
So for me, this movie embodies so much that we

(06:41):
don't see in mainstream media in the West. It's a
rom com that features a Pakistani British family. It's outside
the stereotypical representation of Muslims, Muslim man being a terrorist
and Muslim woman being oppressed, and so I was. I
was drawn to it from the get goal and then

(07:04):
when you guys approached me and I thought, why not
discuss something that people are probably not aware of or
is not part of their consciousness, and maybe we can
talk about something that's fun, but at the same time
they can go watch it and just see a different
side of a Muslim family.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Totally. Yeah, I wasn't aware of this movie until either
you pitched it to us, even though it has some
like pretty big names in it in the cast. I
was like, Oh, what's this little indie comedy.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Right, and then you're like, oh, no, everyone in this
movie is very famous, famous. I also had I mean,
it just came out in the US two months ago
or so, I guess it was released in the US
in May. But even so, I feel like I should
have heard more about it. But I'm very glad I

(08:01):
watched it, and I'm really glad that you, uh, you
brought it to us, because yeah, I think, certainly growing
up in the US, the anti Muslim sentiment in the world,
and also especially in I feel like a lot of
media that you consumed voluntarily or through just cultural osmosis

(08:24):
when we were, when we were younger and still now
is just not inclusive. It's very clear what the point
of view is when talking about Pakistani characters. And yeah,
this this movie felt like a breath of fresh air totally,
and I was really interested in sort of the background
of how it was, how it was made. And I

(08:45):
just love rom coms so much, like I just am
a sucker for people kissing in a treehouse. Unfortunately, it
is pretty cute. It's pretty cute.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I am less thrilled by rom comms in general,
as listeners of the show probably know. But I I
like them in theory. It's just that the execution of
them is often like riddled with so many problematic things,
as we've also discussed a lot on the show.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
But this movie is not immune too. I feel like
there's no such thing as a perfect I don't know,
I've yet to see a rom com that completely subverts tropes.
It is so trupe. I not that I don't believe
it's possible, and not that I wouldn't die in the
pursuit of making the first perfect realm com, but it's

(09:40):
it's a genre that's so I mean, the idea of
like true love is so tropy that like accessing that.
I feel like it's so tough without without some level
of troping. Not to excuse it, but I was like
not not shocked that when any realm coom, you're like, oh, there,
there it is. There's the wise grandmother imparting advice. This

(10:03):
is what happens in this genre.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
It's true. So yeah, shall we just dive into the
recap and go from there?

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, let's do it all right?

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Okay, So we are in London, England. Ever heard of it?
And we meet Zoe played by Lily James, who goes
to a wedding where she reconnects with her childhood friend,
Kaz played by Shazad Latif. Kaz, who was born in

(10:36):
the UK but whose family comes from Pakistan tells Zoe
that he has asked his parents to arrange a marriage
for him, or rather like assist in his pursuit of
finding a partner, and Zoe cannot wrap her head around
anyone wanting to marry someone who they don't already know

(10:59):
and already love. She is looking for love and she
dates around but has not been able to find the
right guy for her.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yes, which we find out through one of the tropier
elements of this movie that was making me laugh because
I'm like, well, this isn't hurting anyone, it's just corny
where there's this like through line of she's telling her
niece's fairy tales in this like I don't know it was.
It was really giving twenty twelve to me, where it

(11:31):
was like once there was a beauty and there was
a beast, but wait, this beauty was trying to break
the glass ceiling.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
You're like, yeah, she's like once upon a time Cinderella
cared more about the glass ceiling than glass slippers.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
I was like, wow, like wow, interesting hearing from Lily James,
who literally played Cinderella.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Wow, feel like there's.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
A little wink. There's a little wink going on.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Okay. So Zoe, who is a documentary filmmaker, pitches and
gets like studio backing or like production company funding or
I don't know. She's talking to some suits who are
very I.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Liked the film bros. Those are like some of my
favorite trophy because especially because the writer is a documentarian
and so you just hear these like two like I
don't know, it didn't feel totally overwrought where it's just
like two white guy executives being like, ooh, women movie, Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Let's do it, and that's they're so hot right now,
so let's make money off it.

Speaker 4 (12:36):
Could you could see that they were just you know,
checking different boxes and they were a bit ass wholey,
But then the depiction was realistic in some ways as well.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Totally like so many industry people are exactly that way anyway.
So she pitches this documentary about Kaz's arranged slash assisted marriage,
and the film bros Are like, yeah, go for it,
and then Kaz, after some convincing, reluctantly and eventually agrees

(13:10):
to be the subject of this documentary, and so Zoe
starts filming and interviewing him. They're talking about this relationship
dynamic where Zoe says, like, what about love and Kaz
says the name of the movie. Basically, He's like, what's
love got to do with it? He's like, you don't

(13:31):
always have to start in love. You can grow to
love someone over time, and she just again continues to
have a hard time wrapping her head around this. She
also films Kaz and his parents Aisha end Zaheed played
by Shabana Asmi and Jeff Mirza. They're all meeting with

(13:54):
this matchmaker guy whose name is Mo and they're going
over the various criteria that they want in a partner
for Kaz. Then Zoe films Kaz going to this Muslim
matchmaking event, but he doesn't meet anyone there who he
clicks with because he is still looking for some kind

(14:16):
of spark or click.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
It was making me like, I I this was this
was so goofy, like journalist brain. But when she is
filming the whole like mixer as like Okay, she's gonna
get three hundred releases today. Best of luck with that,
Lily James. That's a lot of paperwork, lady, But we
never see her do any of a lot of my

(14:41):
criticisms of this movie is the way.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
That she makes her documentary. I'm like, this is not correct.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
You know, you're right.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
It's they keep telling us how big a documentary and
she is, but then you don't see it reflected in
the movie. And I also want his crew she's not.
I don't know what she's doing right. And then I
also want to go back to most scene where Cosim's
parents are basically sharing a list of you know, traits

(15:13):
that they want in their daughter in law. Not that
that particular scene is pretty much emblematic of problematic cultural
norms that exist within South Asian culture and also in
the context of arranged marriage. And Cosin keeps saying that
he wants to click, but then fast forward to the

(15:37):
bride to be he he just settles like he doesn't
even want to have any shared any common interests. And
we'll come to that, I'm sure, But yeah, yeah, they
had a lot of contradiction.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
They don't click at all, Like it's really.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
And why I settle for somebody a decade younger, Like, dude,
you could you could say no to that.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Yeah, you could take a second skype call. It seems
like very passive. I was confused. Yeah, I feel like
there were times where kas would say something but then
do something far more passive. His character was interesting, yeah,
because he was like, oh, he had like this list
of like this is what I would want in a partner,

(16:20):
and like the click. But yeah, but then the way
that their meeting is their first meeting. I mean, it's
fine that it's so awkward, but it stays that way,
and he seems to resent her for being her age,
which he knew, and he's like, why does she like
to dance? You're like, because she's twenty two, that's why.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
That is why.

Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
So we're about to get to that car a lot
where Kaz's parents want to introduce him to a woman
named Maimuna who lives in Lahore, Pakistan, and he meets
her skype. She's played by so jall Ali. They made
a for Skype, and she's very quiet and reserved and

(17:08):
it seems very awkward at first, but they eventually find
some common ground off screen apparently off screen.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
He's like, no, you know, we've been texting and calling
and we we like each other now. And it's like,
believe it when I see it.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
Right, you can see from the get gool that she's
not interested in him, Like she is totally totally out
of that.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, and we'll find out why shortly.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
But I was honestly relieved when we found out why,
because I was like this, I just felt for it
because he was like judging her so kind of like
not like overtly, but like behind the scenes, he definitely
was judging her. And I was like, she she did
nothing wrong.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
She just wants to be a human rights attorney.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, And ultimately, Ultimately and Zoe deserve each other because
they're both so boring and kind of judgmental.

Speaker 4 (18:05):
I'm glad you said that Zoe is so judgmental, and
we could do an entire episode on how judgmental she is.
Like it's not like she thinks there's something good about
assistant or arranged marriage. She's not. She's not trying to
approach it from a place of curiosity. She's judging it
throughout the film, right.

Speaker 5 (18:26):
Every scene in a way that is like it's so
funny because it's like, I know that Jemima Hunt is
a very like talented, decorated documentary producer, but I'm just like,
but then she would know that you can't just press
pause and be like you're wrong, Like that's not how
that's not how that works.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
You're that's that's not impartial.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, there's no objectivity to her approach. But yeah, we'll
we'll discuss that further. Meanwhile, Zoe pays a visit to
her mom, Cath played by Emma Thompson, who is pressuring
Zoe to get married and start a family, and she's

(19:12):
trying to set Zoe up with her vet James, but
Zoe isn't really having it. There's also a scene where
she considers freezing her eggs not bad for James. James,
he seems sweet, another person in this movie who did nothing.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Wrong and is just judged. And ooh that scene where
Lily James is taking is doing her goofy thing she
does with her nieces where she tells them boring stories
that are about her secretly, where she's just talking shit
about James to her nieces. I was like, what are
you doing? And then he's standing right there because it's

(19:49):
a rom com like.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Man, and he's like, damn, she doesn't love me.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
It's like, and she feels comfortable sharing that with a
seven year old for some reason, and for.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Some reason, this seven year old is so interested in
her story.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
These seven year olds are missing the bride. But now
I'm gonna now, I'm gonna lazer in on the seven
year old to be like they were. And then she's
like and then she was in love and Lily James
is like, no, she wasn't.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
She's even judging seven year olds, by the way, Yeah
she is.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
So it's so frustrating when it's like, I don't know,
because there is such a having a The likability of
women characters across media is so often discussed in a
very disingenuous way, and you hear it because from people
who just generally don't seem to like women very much. However, Uh,

(20:42):
Zoe is not. I did not find her to be
likable at all. I did not like her.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, especially again, she spends the whole movie being like
this cultural practice of yours is weird and I hate it.
And it's like, yeah, wow, maybe don't be like that anyway.
So yeah, her mom's trying to set her up with
James the Vet. She's not really having it. She also

(21:10):
considers freezing her eggs because she does she says she
wants to be a mother, although she'd rather be a father,
which I thought was pretty funny. But she decides that
freezing her eggs is not a good option for her
after all. Then her best friend Helena tells Zoe that

(21:30):
she found out that her husband Harry, has been cheating
on her for a while. Also, Zoe hooks up with
a man who she later realizes is married and cheating
on his wife with Zoe. So Zoe is losing more
and more faith that this whole love and family thing
could pan out for her or anyone really. Then Kaz

(21:57):
reveals to Zoe on camera because she's still making her
documentary with zero crew, only one camera, no microphones, no lighting,
et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
I didn't mind that they romcomified the documentary job, especially
because the writer knew damn well that that's not how
you make a documentary. But I was like, yeah, it
is kind of fun to be like a documentary is
when you watch back film you shot while drinking a
gigantic glass of wine. That's how that works.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, that'd be fun just editing on iMovie on
your personal laptop. Anyway, So Kas reveals that he has
gotten engaged to Maimuna and the wedding is in a month,
and he invites Zoe and her mom Kath to come
to Pakistan where the wedding will be, to just hang

(22:51):
out for a bit as he and his family gears
up for this wedding. So they all arrive in Lahore
and and Cos meets his bride to be Maimuna in
person for the first time. It's a bit awkward, and
Zoe continues to question if he wants to go through

(23:11):
with this, but he says he does, and Kaz takes
Zoe to a bizarre he puts a necklace on her.
It feels very romantic, even though I would argue that
these two people have zero chemistry on.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Screen, as is so common and that is the make
or break factor of any rom com where it's like,
I will watch absolute dog shit if I believe the
two leads want to fuck each other.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
True, it's such a beautiful thing to watch, it is.
The point is it seems like they're vibing a bit.
Zoe is like, remember how I was your first kiss
in the treehouse and he's like, no, I don't remember that.
But then later he's like, I've never forgotten. I was
lying before.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
They're like, why the hell was he lying there?

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I did not get that. Is he just like denying
his feelings for her because he knows that he's about
to get married to someone else. Yeah, maybe it's.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Like it sounds like they were like fourteen when this happened.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Right, they were like tweens or something.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
He wasn't cheating on me moonas she was a baby
when that happened.

Speaker 4 (24:26):
Yeah, she was four when that.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah. So Caaz and Zoe also talk about his sister Jamila,
who the family has more or less disowned because she
married a white, non Muslim man and that broke her grandparents'
hearts and it just really upset the whole family, which

(24:53):
is there in the story to imply that if Caaz
and Zoe were to get together, it would be a
huge disgrace to his family. Right, so the steaks are high.
Then that night is the Mendy, the like pre wedding
party where Mamona is no longer the timid, soft spoken,

(25:18):
modest woman that we all thought she was she parties.
Oh she's drinking. Oh she's smoking weed. Oh she's tearing
it up on the dance floor. Oh she has gay
friends and so she's also.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
Sinner. I loved this scene for her where she like
basically calls Zoe a loser. Like she's like, Okay, if
you're not fucking chill, I guess I'll go over here.
She like she calls her cousin Zoe old losers. Good
for her, She's like, I thought you would be modern,
you know, living in London and everything, but you guys

(25:57):
suck and I'm gonna go get sucked up on coke
massalas on the dance floor. I love Memuna and the
maymuna defense for us.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
She at first I was just like, who is this
woman who like she barely says a single sentence at
a at a time, like one word responses. And then
all of a sudden she's like, I'm a wild child,
I'm a girl's gone wild, and I'm like, yes, more

(26:29):
of this, please.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
You know. But what I did not get was this
this transition or this change in her behavior from the
way she appeared on Skype versus the way she acted
because if she is studying to be a human rights lawyer,
her family seems pretty modern. She should have been less

(26:52):
timid having those conversations with him, So why was she
acting the way she was during those skype calls? Not
get that?

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I was curious about that, Yeah, because I thought that
they were setting up a different character where I was like, Oh,
she's like socially awkward or that was like how it
felt when we met her. I was like, Oh, she's
really shy, maybe like she's not comfortable. But then you're like, hmm,
clearly that's not true. Maybe I don't know. The closest
I was getting was like her family was like watching

(27:24):
her have that, but I don't know. Yeah, it's felt
like a mismatch where it seemed like she has this
big personality but when we're introduced to.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Her, she's suppressing all of it. Right that skype call
I thought was establishing like she's another like not good
match for Kaz because they barely have a conversation and
she's saying she's giving him nothing and he's having to
keep the conversation going, and I'm like, oh, they're not compatible.

(27:53):
He has to find the next person. But it's like no,
that's who he ends up marrying. Okay, anyway, so Kas
learns all this stuff about Maimuna, that she's, you know,
a party animal, and it comes as quite of a
shock to him. So he spends most of the evening
hanging out with Zoe, whose feelings for each other seemed

(28:14):
to be bubbling closer to the surface.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Then the following day is the marriage ceremony, where prior
to the ceremony, Zoe tries to convince Caause not to
go through with it, and she's just like everyone's pretending,
Like you should stop pretending, Like what about Jamila, your sister,
She's not even here, Like this is a facade. And

(28:41):
he's like, just because you have horrible taste in men
and you always end up with the wrong person doesn't
mean that I will.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Oh, he goes, he really, I was like, oh ouch,
what is he? I wrote down? I wrote down what
he said because it hurt my feelings, he says. He says,
I have a question, does it hurt less when you
aim low? And miss as.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Like, oh out, wow?

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Is bad? Gnar? Really? I mean to be fair, She's
been really judgy towards him for weeks. At this point, yeah, true,
but I was like, ooh ooh that was I felt
that in my gut.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Also, he says something like, if the first guy you
date is a dick, that's like a hymn problem. If
the next ten guys you date are also dicks, then
maybe you should like look inward and see why that is.
And I'm like, okay, as someone who has dated exclusively
horrible men one after the other and it's not my fault,

(29:40):
I resented that statement.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
And also the beautiful irony is like, you're being a
dick right now? Show me, like, how are you being
better menor awhile, Yeah that was. I was like, you know,
there's a lot of things I don't care for in
Zoe's behavior, but as like dating men and them all

(30:03):
sucking like common experience.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, it's so true. Anyway, So Kuz and Maimona get married,
although Maimuna is crying an awful lot and we're wondering
what's happening there.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Yeah, So here's what I would say though, And the
statement that Cosim's mother makes eyeshop that a lot of
women cry, even if they're really happy that happens. It's
a tradition, like you just have to show how devastated
you are leaving your family behind, your parents, and those

(30:38):
who don't cry, it's like it's kind of frowned upon,
and it used to be more intense obviously twenty thirty
years ago, and now nobody really gives a shit. But
I remember I did not cry at all, and I
am telling you I was judged. I was judged for
not crying. Like there was, you know, a lot of

(31:00):
gossip and conversations around it. So yeah, you kind of
you kind of have to pretend to cry sometimes you
really do cry because you're leaving your bab in solme
and you have this strong attachment do your family, coming
from collectivist societies. But yeah, so I wouldn't dig this
as a signal that she was unhappy, because a lot

(31:22):
of Pakistani girls do cry.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Sure, yeah, we do find out that she is crying,
at least partially because she is unhappy entering this marriage.
But yes, cousin's mom was like, oh, it's it's tradition
for Pakistani women to cry as they leave their family, So.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
That's good to know. Yeah, because I wasn't sure because
of what we learned later if Kaz's mom was just
saying that to be like, it's all good. But okay,
that's I didn't know that CAD weddings are so like
across cultures are so entrenched in performance. Yes, like all
weddings are performance.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, it's true. So then Zoe returns to the UK
and starts dating James the Vet and.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
It's such a sweet guy. Though he is my favorite
character in this movie.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
He is sweet, he treats her well, he seems to
be emotionally mature.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
But in the she's like, boom, let him go. Yeah,
dates someone who likes him.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
I don't know why she stays with him because she
clearly isn't in love with him and he's not the
right guy for her.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
I think I know why, but it's she's it's misguided.
She's just such a dufus.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
She truly is. Then it's time for a screening of
Zoe's documentary, which has a mixed response, where Maimuna thinks
it's beautiful and she loves it, but and his family
are outraged that Zoe included his sister Jamila and her
non Muslim husband. On top of that, James breaks up

(33:10):
with Zoe because he knows that she's not in love
with him and he doesn't want to be her like,
yeah he advocated yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Right, I was happy for him, mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
And then Zoe gets word from the Broe suits who
are like funding the documentary that they are not going
to move forward with the project because it's quote a
diverse subject, which is great, but through a white lens,
which is not so great. And it's like, well, why

(33:44):
didn't you say that before she made the documentary? Like
why is this just now coming up?

Speaker 3 (33:50):
That was my confusion too, because I was like, okay,
fair point, but weird time to bring it up.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah, because they already knew what it was going to
be about as she pitched it.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
So but they were so bold over that by the
fact that she was a woman, that they forgot that
she was white.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
Yes, so they don't get the intersectional box, right, They
didn't get that. Maybe the funders pointed out maybe somebody
said something to them and then they realized. But yeah,
they had typical bruised They don't know everything, right, Oh,
they know very little.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
I would say, yeah, and I that was such an
interesting plot point because I'm like, I don't disagree with
what they're saying, but it's wild that they stumbled on
it because we've watched her make this documentary and there
has been no care taking. It's just like, because I
think the phrase they uses white lens, I'm like, yeah,
that is quite literally what she was doing the whole time.

(34:50):
They're not wrong, That's what I thought too.

Speaker 4 (34:52):
I was like, ooka a good decision, but too late.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
I guess too late? And why is it coming from
those guys and not like Kazu's family for example, Like
if I was them, I would be like, why are
you a white lady the person to tell our story?

Speaker 4 (35:13):
I think for them because she grew up being in
their home, maybe they see her as part of their family,
extended family. So I don't think they see her as
this white woman documenting their lives, so they don't see
her through that lens.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
I guess, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what she does anyway,
that's what she's doing.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, because it's I mean, Kazu's family is so welcoming
to Zoe and also it seems like her mom. It
seems like they are basically functioned as Kat's family, and
I mean the cath character will get to her, but
they're yeah, they're they're very kind to the I had
to look up there the Stephenson family. Sure, yes, just whatever,

(36:02):
very rom COMMI name. Yeah, it felt like Zoe. The
point of view of Zoe's documentary was so Western in
that like she she was just like well, coming in
with the assumption that her viewer would not respect or
approve of assisted marriage in any way, and being like,

(36:23):
but I can prove that it's not all bad, Like,
it's just coming in with the perspective that obviously Western
approaches to relationships are healthy and great, which is like.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
So all of this stuff has happened, and Zoe is
very depressed and lonely and defeated, and then we get
a reveal that Maimuna is in love with someone back
in Pakistan and that she went through with this marriage

(37:01):
for her family, who like insisted that she get married
to Kaz And he's like, well, what do we do now,
and she says, will pretend like everyone else brutal. My
head canon is that she was in love with another woman.
We don't see who the person she's in love with.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
But I guess they are. They are only referred to
as someone.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Else, someone else, the mysterious someone else. Yes, anyway, so
she's like, we'll just pretend because that's what needs to
be done. And then Kaz has a conversation with his
mom where she says that all she wants is for
her kids to be happy, and he's like, well, I

(37:45):
just want to be a good son. Meanwhile, Zoe and
her mom are having a conversation about relationships and how
kath admires Zoe's independence, but also we all need other people,
and I wish you would learn to let people care
about you and not like close yourself off to everyone.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
And you're like, sure, that's what you were trying to
do by forcing her to date a veterinarian, right.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Then Zoe gets an email from Kaz and Mamuna where
we don't know the whole message until Kaz shows up
for aid at his parents' house, where he reveals that
he and Maimuna are getting divorced because they don't want
to pretend anymore, and he also reveals that he has

(38:39):
invited his sister, Jamila and her husband and baby to
meet their family. The family finally embraces Jamila and her husband,
and then Zoe runs off to the treehouse and she's like,
come here, Kaz, and he's like, TI hei what And

(39:00):
she's like, let's kiss again in the treehouse, just like
our first kiss. And he's like hah okay, and then
the kiss.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
I don't know why. I was so irritated that it
took them forever to kiss.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
So long she keeps like cleaning in and then pulling back,
and then leaning in and pulling back, and it's like,
just kiss already, and then they do.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Anyways, at least they do and they live happily. Ever,
it's implied that they get buried I think, right, yeah,
by the credits, but they're.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
Taking it slow. They're taking it slow. They just want
to get to know each other more. Really, I thought
they knew each other really well. But anyway, since childhood.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, since childhood, right, And I like that because at
the end, you get in the credits, you get just
I don't know if it feels very like two thousand
and seven rom Cow where you're like, oh, it's just
like a bunch of kind of like Blueberry like where
are they now kind of things. And may Moona's back
and apparently maybe broke up with that person since she

(40:00):
was dating because she's like, I finished college, my parents
love me, SEEA, And I was like, yeah, good for her.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
You go girl. So that's the movie. Let's take a
quick break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Where shall we start study? Is there anything that was
that stood out to you that you wanted to start with.

Speaker 4 (40:30):
A lot of thoughts. I think they could have developed
Memuna's character a little more. I did not see that
change or evolution of who she was. Why was she
pretending to be the way she was during her skype gods?
And then in the end she says, my parents love me.
I'm a human rights lawyer. Well, if your parents love you,

(40:52):
you could have confided in them before getting married and
they would have been fine with it. So why take
that journey?

Speaker 6 (40:59):
Like?

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Why was documentary the trigger for everyone to realize what
was happening in their lives how she did their lives for?
So I have problem with that. I honestly like ayisha
ask character more, although she is problematic in some ways,
but then she's the matriarch and she is who she is,
and she has agency. I think she has more agency

(41:23):
than Zoe or Mamuona.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
So too, like I think that honestly like and Kath
is such a goofy character, but I think that Ayisha
and Kath both sort of have more agency than the
younger women in the movie, which is interesting. I mean,
I wonder how intentional that was. As I was watching this,
I sort of because I think that the movie and

(41:48):
I know that, and I guess I didn't see the
interviews where Jemima con was saying that this was not
an autobiographical story, even though it reflected elements of her life,
where it's like a white documentarian marries into a Pakistani family.
Although you know, I guess that in the space of
this movie, Zoe does not technically marry into a Pakistani family.

(42:11):
But as I was watching this, I feel like the
movie definitely overly focuses on Zoe in a way that
centers whiteness in a way that feels unlike, kind of
icky and unnecessary. And that might just be coming from
the writer's experience. But as I was watching this, because
they reference maybe it's because Emma Thompson's in it, and

(42:32):
they reference love actually at the beginning of the movie
by calling it love contractually. But I thought that this
movie would have worked for me more if it was
treated more as an ensemble cast versus putting Zoe and
causes relationship at the center of the movie because Saudia,
I totally agree. I think there were all of these

(42:54):
characters that I wanted so much more from, and I
would have loved to like cut away to especially. I
also wanted more Jamila. I was so interested in Jamila's
baxtone relationship with her mother. Yeah, and like it was
very like satisfying to see her accepted back into her
family at the end of the movie, but I want

(43:16):
to I mean I was just really interested in how
long have they been separated for? Like what was her
relationship with Ishauld like before that, Like, it just it
felt like there was it was a missed opportunity not
including Jamila as more than kind of a plot point.
And I think, yeah, she is more certainly more interesting

(43:37):
than Zoe as a character, And yeah, I just wish
that there was more because I think that there is
a really interesting spread of characters, but we don't really
get to know many of them.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
And then Zoe making this documentary, which we've already said,
is like her coming into this subject matter with no
object activity. The whole time, she's just basically like mocking
causes him and his values, his cultural values, his family's values.

(44:10):
She's being like judgy and snarky the whole time about
it in a way that like feels very like racist
and xenophobic, where it's like, yeah, these these cultural practices
that are different than mine, Well I think they're ridiculous,
is her stance basically, But through making this documentary, she

(44:33):
reunites this family, like the sister Jamila comes back and
everyone embraces her at the end, and that's like kind
of the big climactic moment of the movie. And it's
implied that that only happens because of Zoe's like interference,
which makes it a white savior story.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Exactly it does. I'm so Gladkaitlny said that because I
keept thinking about it and I was watching Jemima Han's press,
like she did a lot of press around it, and
one of the recurring themes was, Oh, I just want
to reorient people to what arranged marriage really is. And
I'll be the first one to say that arranged marriage

(45:12):
has a lot of problems, like people seek partners within
certain casts, certain socio economic groups. Arranged marriage can be problematic,
but then there are redeeming elements to it, as is
with anything like dating apps, they can be very transactional,
and they can also be based on certain preferences that

(45:35):
people have around education, looks, whatever. And after I watched
the movie, I was like, Ah, are you really saying
that arranged marriage is not that bad? Because to me
it comes across as you know, what arranged marriage is,
or she calls it assisted marriage is a really shitty
way to find love. So yeah, I mean, I didn't

(45:58):
take this whole thing off arranged manages or assisted malagies.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
I'm not that bad, right, which is like a very
judgmental way to present that, even if that's your opinion. Like,
I don't know. There are so many issues I had
with and it's so bizarre because I understand that the
writer is like, this is not an insert for me,
it's really hard to not see it that way I had.

(46:25):
I kind of had to have difficulty not inherently connecting
her to this character. But the ethos of the movie,
I mean seems to be it seems like this movie
is for like it seems more directed at white audiences
than anyone else, or Western audiences in general, people that
don't have an understanding of Pakistani culture. But it comes

(46:48):
at it in the I mean, I think that the
movie is coming at it from the same perspective that
Zoe the filmmaker is, where it's like, let's mythbust, Like, Okay,
we all agree that this seems bad, but what if
it's good? And you're like, that's not a neutral perspective
to come in on. That's super judgmental. And then the

(47:08):
the way that the movie ends, I feel like implies
that she was right all along, and yeah, totally so.
And I guess that the one I mean, there are relationships.
I know that causes brother oh what's his brother's name
for Ruke, I mean, he is very happy in his marriage,
and that is presented, and like, I appreciate that, but

(47:31):
there's such non characters that it feels like it felt
more like a gesture than any actual interest in exploring,
Like you're saying, Saudia like this very complicated thing. And
in the same way where when Kause is first talking
with his parents about what qualities he's looking for in

(47:52):
a partner, there is a reference. It's like a joke
about colorism, and then but that's it, and then it
doesn't come back and there's like, I don't know the
way the way that this movie presented it, I feel
like I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Maybe
Jemima Kahn did collaborate. I mean I read about her

(48:13):
research process and it seems like she drew from her
own experiences. And then she said that she did fifty
interviews with people who had had assisted marriages or gone
through that process and then decided against it, which, Okay,
that's great, but it still feels like her perspective is
central to the way that Pakistani culture is presented.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Right, because if it's not clear to listeners. So, Jemima
Kahn is a journalist, documentarian. She's worked you know, as
an executive producer in TV quite a bit. This is
her first screenplay. But she is a white woman who
was married to Imram Khan for ten years in the

(49:01):
mid nineties to mid two thousands. She lived in Pakistan
with him. I think for those ten years. I believe
she converted to Islam when they got married, So.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
She, I guess had done reporting on this topic in
the past.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
I don't know, right, but she is a white woman
with a with that perspective, like an outsider's perspective telling
the story, which like before I started doing research on
who made the movie, I just saw, you know, written
by Jemima Khn. I didn't know who that was, and
I assume because of her last name, oh, this is
probably a Pakistani writer. But then I was like, none

(49:40):
of this is adding up, Like why is this a
white savior story? Why is there's so much like scrutiny
toward this cultural practice? And then I looked up who
Jemima Khan was and I was like, oh, everything makes
sense now. The movie is directed by an Indian director,
a man named Shook Kapoor, but the artistic vision, as

(50:04):
far as like the narrative goes, was written by a
white woman, and I'm like, oh, this makes a lot
of sense.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
You know. It's interesting. Jemima Hahn, first of all, is
revered in Pakistan because of, you know, the way she
almost adapted to a culture that was so alien to her,
and she's taken more nuanced approach to Pakistani politics Muslim identity.

(50:30):
Her work is pretty symbolic of the nuance that she adds.
After watching this movie, I was almost disappointed because I
felt like the person that she is and how explicit
she is about the nuances that she wants to explore
through that identity, whether it's Muslim or Pakistani. She did

(50:52):
not bring that to this particular movie, And as you said,
I don't know if she was trying to appeal more
to the Western audience, but then the idea should have
been to give them something to ruminate over, right, to
have more conversations around, rather than ah, you know, this
is what was expected. So I honestly was disabbointed in

(51:16):
this movie.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
That's yeah. I wasn't aware I had her. I mean,
I'd seen some of her documentaries in the past, which
are all unrelated, but yeah, it felt I don't know,
and I know that I think she's fairly new to
the fiction space in general, but it's it felt like
a really poor application of write what you know, because

(51:40):
if there's like sure, do that, but like not when
your other objective is to responsibly portray a culture that
is not your native culture. I have a quote from
her that I think because I guess I was I
when I learned more about her, at least in the abstract,
because I didn't know what her reputation in Pakistan was.

(52:03):
But yeah, once I learned more about her, I was like, Okay,
has she said who this movie is for, and she
kind of has like she I think is willing to
and kind of has admitted that this movie is more
geared towards Western audiences to show Pakistani people in a

(52:25):
genre where they do not normally appear. So I have
a quote from her here where she expands on that.
I have a lot of thoughts about it, but we'll discuss.
She says. The question is what compelled you to focus
on the subject of assisted marriage as your first script?
She says, quote in part, the reason why I chose
the genre of rom com was because I'd never seen
a rom com that features Pakistan, and I felt Pakistani's

(52:47):
I know, definitely feel their country and culture have been
somewhat unfairly demonized on screen. They feel they're always seen
as the terrorists, the butt of the jokes, the shady
ISI operatives or whatever. I understand they're a scary side
to Pakistan because I experienced that as well. But there
is also this incredibly beautiful side of that country and
the people which I experienced when I was there, whether

(53:09):
it's the music, the food, the architecture, the color, the vibrancy,
the hospitality, all of that I felt was worth showcasing, unquote,
So inside of that, it feels like she is basically
saying this is for Western audiences specifically. I still don't
agree with her approach at all. I think it's very

(53:30):
weird and reductive.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Totally.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
You're absolutely right, and to me, yes, you see some
smattering off redeeming qualities. Right, So when Kaz talks about
number forty seven and number forty eight are words abot
or when they joke about random checks at airports, I
get that. I've been full decide for a random check.

(53:57):
I've lived in the US for over two decades. I
am citizen, and I know that happens, right, and it
is extremely frustrating. And to her defense, maybe she was
trying to just put it out there and let the
audience see it without being too preachy. But my problem
is not with what she showed in a subtle way.

(54:20):
My problem is the overarching theme of this story, which
to me, as Jamie and Caitlin both of you said,
is reductive and extremely symbolic of the white savior narrative.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Yeah, it's frustrating, especially because now I'm like, how does
this I don't know, I do. It seems like her
heart was in the right place when she was doing this. Yeah,
but like the character of Zoe, it seems like she
should have meaningfully included Pakistani people in the process of

(54:58):
making this because otherwise it seems I mean, it's a
very like I get it as when you're making something,
it is difficult to not make your perspective central to it.
But it's like if if you're aware of that, which
I would imagine she would be because she's such an
accomplished documentary producer, then it is on you to bring

(55:21):
in people who can, you know, give the film what
it needs. And it seems like that wasn't really done
here and whether her heart is in the right place,
which it seems like it very well. Maybe it's like
it's clear that like she is the main character in
a movie where she's claiming that that's not the goal

(55:43):
of the.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Movie and that her like white western colonizer perspective is
actually the right one, and she's showing that by saying, yeah,
because the arranged or assisted marriage thing doesn't work. See,
it didn't work with Kaz and my Mona, it didn't
happen for Jamila, and she seems super happy with her family.

(56:06):
The characters who it does seem to work for are
either framed as antagonistic forces in Kaz's mom or they
are characters who we barely get to know, such as
Faruk and his partner what was her name, Yasmin maybe anyway.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
And they're they're also as a god and they're a
Harry Potter couple.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, it's true. Did either of you see the movie
Polite Society that came out earlier this year.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
I haven't. I've heard so many good things about it
and I have yet to watch it.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
Same.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
I loved it. It's so funny, it's so good, and
it tells a similar story in the sense that it's
like examining arranged marriages in specifically a Pakistani family who
live in the UK from the perspective you would want
to hear that from. Because it was written and directed
by Nita Minsor who grew up in a Pakistani Muslim family.

(57:09):
So there's no white lens, there's no like you know.
It's just like a very funny, smart, clever examination of
that and I highly recommend it to everybody.

Speaker 4 (57:23):
I loved it interesting. You know, Saja Lali, who plays
Memuna in this film is a brilliant actress, a brilliant
Pakistani actress, and I feel like her character was not
developed or exploited the way she could have been. Right,
And I'm really eager to watch the other movie now

(57:45):
because at the end of the day, it's not a
judgment on love or arranged marriage. I think arranged marriage
in many ways is problematic and I'll be the first
one to see. But at the end of the day,
what I took away from it is it's even more
problematic that people would believe it to.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
Be based on watching a movie like this one.

Speaker 4 (58:09):
What's to do with it?

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Right, It's so confused because I feel like, I don't know.
I think it's interesting that the writer is distancing herself
from the character of Zoe in this way. I feel
like it would be more honest and make more sense
and be more like more honest to the viewer to
say that like clearly for her assisted marriage for her

(58:35):
and her ex husband, like assistant marriage was not what
they wanted and like because that is their personal experience.
And I feel like, you know, it just feels interesting
that she chose she's choosing to distance herself from it.
But it's like, no, it's that is a part of
like your marriage's story, why distance, because it makes it

(59:00):
at least contextualizes where she's coming from. But because it's
presented in this sort of like vacant space, it feels
very judgmental. And it seems like the tacit statement of
this movie is the Western approach to the current Western
approach to relationships is correct, which also feels confusing because

(59:21):
the movie kind of waffles on that as well, where
it sort of implied that James and Zoe's relationship is
a different kind of arrangement that Emma Thompson's character is
trying to do. But that's kind of dropped also, and
like I wasn't quite sure what the movie was trying
to say there.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
That's a great point, Jamie, because their arrangement could also
be considered and assisted something tot right. But at the
end of the day, look, marriage as an institution is problematic.
After a decade, all marriages sn whether arranged or not arranged.

(01:00:03):
I'm not getting arranged marriage, and I still feel marriage
is work in progress always, So maybe we should have
a movie about marriage as an institution. Yeah, and let's
let's really dissect that frist.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
Yeah, Well, and I feel like this movie was in
an interesting position to say more about that, but then
kind of chickened out on the proper way to do
it because we also have Zoe's friends. We have like
her close friend who has the kids that she's won't

(01:00:41):
stop telling these horrible, boring stories too. It's convoluted. I
was like, God, if that was my aunt, I'd be like,
please just give me the iPad. Stop. That's what are
you talking about? But her nieces there there, I think
they're the kids of her friend.

Speaker 7 (01:01:02):
Yeah, Helena, who is sort of set up to be
it's just all nothing quite connected with me. Where it's
like they were trying she was trying to say something
there where it was like Helena and Harry. Okay, so
Harry is cheating on his wife and it's clearly taking
a big emotional toll on her, and that I feel

(01:01:24):
like the movie presents as like a strike against the
Western approach to marriages, but that becomes confusing because we
know nothing about these.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Characters, and like, so I guess worse. I think it
like the implication there is like, well, they didn't have
an assistant marriage, so it was true love and so
true like I don't know. I just was confused at
like they were always different relationships presented in a very
intentional way, but it didn't add up to anything that

(01:01:54):
made cohesive sense to me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I also felt that the movie cast judgment on Zoe's
character for doing anything besides like trying to be in
a long term, committed relationship, because there are different scenes
where she like goes to a club and goes home
with a random guy and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Always happens every time, right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Also, the guy that she goes home with that she
realizes is married I thought was the same guy as
James the Vet because they look exactly alike.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
And I'm just like, she has a type.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
She's got a type, a type exactly because.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
All the guys we see like a montage prior to
that earlier in the movie of various guys that she
has gone on dates with who you know, end up
not being the one, and they all look the same too,
And I'm like, stop casting the same exact like white
guy with light brown hair who's like the same height
and build as every other guy in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
Now, what if Gemes and Zoey ended up together? That
would be a Kese for assistant marriage right, it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Would it would have been Yeah, this movie comes down
firmly any kind of assisted marriage is why bother. But
here's this Harry Potter couple, so I guess you could
get lucky, and you're just like, that's it feels. I
don't know, and I have another I feel bad. I
feel like I'm like roasting this writer. But I was

(01:03:31):
really frustrated with her approach because I feel like another
element that fruster did me about Zoe and kind of
puts me on the defensive about Jemima conn saying that
this character is not a self insert Is that a
lot of this is more of like just a general
feeling I have about rom coms where I feel like
rom coms that work the romantic leads have a good

(01:03:53):
sense of humor about themselves, and that's sort of like
why it feels relatable and easy to Zoe does not
have a good sense of humor about herself at all.
She is very defensive, not in the way that like,
I don't know, this is like the same production this
production company I was reading a lot of the coverage of,
like will this be the comeback for this legendary rom

(01:04:16):
com production company? This is the same production company that
released kind of every popular British rom com in the
last twenty or thirty years. Like there, it's the same
company that put out Bridget Jones and all these other movies.
And like what works about a good rom com is
the calm, and like the leads have a good sense

(01:04:38):
of humor about like Okay, my love life keeps not
working out, but it's not like a humorless vacuum in
a way, Like Zoe takes herself way too seriously and
so does.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Cos she doesn't prop fall once. Well I need.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
Saying that though, I mean, but like it just feels
like she and she and cause in different moments, but
more so Zoe just feel very self important and judgmental.
And I think Zoe is the center of that. I
don't know, like there there was some rum I wasn't
really feeling. The calm not.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
A lot of calm. Yeah, So I don't quite even
understand why Zoe and Kus end up together at the end,
because they don't seem to have anything in common as
far as like, yes, they're philosophies on love and romance
and life in general. They have no shared hobbies except
for table tennis, like why are they even together?

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
Yeah, you're right, I didn't even think of that. That
makes so much sense.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Why the whole movie is them arguing about their philosophies
on what a relationship should be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Well, and I think it like overstates this. I mean,
I guess because you were like, why are these two together?
Which is how we felt. We felt a lot of
round cooms. But like, I think it also like overstates.
I think the logic of this movie, and the logic
of a lot of Western romance movies assumes a level

(01:06:07):
of progressiveness to Western relationships. Will characterizing assisted marriage or
any really Eastern relationship as regressive. But also the ethos
to every single Hallmark movie that's ever come out is
like you should marry your neighbor.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
And you're like, it's Christmas time and you have to
get married now.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Yeah, it's it's Christian Christmas and you have to marry
your neighbor whether you like them or not. And you're like, well,
where is the where is the progressiveness? Like it's it's
all you know, Like the subtext of it is very regressive.

Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
I don't see a happily ever off to want them.
I really don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
They're gonna butt heads about a lot of things.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
Like they are going to devot, they are going to
divorce eventually as well.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
That's that's my deacon for sure. I think you know,
there will be problems with the in laws because one
Cath is the queen of micro aggressions. It seems that
I should resent Zoe taking an interest in her son
like that. Yeah, the relationship is never gonna work out.

Speaker 6 (01:07:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
That brings me back to like why I wish Jamila
had been allowed to be an actual character in the movie,
where it felt very like tie a bow on a
rom com move to have Jamila come over one time
and have her entire family immediately accept her, even though
the stakes were set extremely high as to why she

(01:07:42):
was no longer welcome. It just was like, I need
to understand why this is happening other than there's five
minutes left in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yeah, truly. And something that I do like about the movie,
at least on its surface, is you know I was
talking before about how rom coms are usually not the
genre for me, but for specific reasons like I'm excited
by and I'm always on the lookout for rom comms

(01:08:11):
that have a compelling reason that the two characters don't
get together until the end. Because for many rom coms,
the kind of the narrative vehicle or the narrative thrust.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
You might say, Caitlin loves to say thrust, and I fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Get it's awesome. I hate so the narrative thrust is
that there is something keeping the lovers apart for most
of the movie. Now, historically, in a lot of rom coms,
it's a very toxic or reductive reason. It's like one
or both characters are lying to each other throughout the
whole movie, or there's some kind of like bet or deceit,

(01:08:54):
or like the woman is too focused on her magazine
job and she can't make time for her her personal life,
or there's something like trophy and exhausting like that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
I kind of love rom coms for that, where they're like,
this job, well, this movie does it where it's like, yeah,
her job of documentary, which is looking at laptop and
drinking red wine means that she can never be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Sure, So I appreciate rom comms that subvert those tropes
or try to subvert them. And I feel like this movie, again,
on its surface, finds an interesting and compelling reason that
the characters don't get together until the end, and it

(01:09:40):
is one that like, you know, there are tropes and
it is a lot of her scrutinizing his cultural values,
but it is these cultural values that are like kind.

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
Of premanding them to be together. Yeah, absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
So I was like, Okay, that's interesting on its surface. Again,
it's not executed very well, but I did at least
appreciate that that the characters, although I would say that
they're actually not honest with each other, because if they
were honest with each other, Kaz would just be like, hey,
I have a crush on you, and she'd be like

(01:10:16):
I have a crush on you too. Should we kiss
at the beginning of the movie instead of at the end?

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Like all right, well, yeah, I think that that's like,
I mean, we've talked about a bunch of issues as
bovie has, but one of them is like we should
believe that they really want to be together the whole time,
or this narrative device is like far less effective, right,
But yeah, Sadia, I agree with you. It's like I

(01:10:43):
don't think that they want the same things in life,
and because also we don't really know what cause wants,
like we just sort of he gives sort of a
very generic like I'm a good guy. I want a
lady that has a job or not. I want someone
who's nice or not mean. And you're like it's so vague,

(01:11:05):
and then we know that she she's kind of like
Liz lemoning a little bit and she's like, I you know,
can women have it all? And you're like, I don't know.
I don't know if you can because I don't know. Yeah,
like if if you want to tell the story, I
feel like you have to give us two characters that
It's like, I need these people together.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
I'm rooting for them. And at no point was I
rooting for them to be together.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
I wasn't anyway, they also weren't really rooting for them,
like that was how I knew, or I was like, oh,
I don't. I guess I don't believe in this relationship
because you know that scene where they're texting and she
almost sends don't get married tomorrow, and then she deletes
it and involuntarily I was like, good, it's good that
she didn't send that. And I was like, well, I

(01:11:52):
guess I'm not rooting for them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Yeah, does anyone have an anything else they'd like to discuss.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Yeah. My one last thing is just like a quick
overview on the parents' generation and how they're approaching various
relationship thing like outlooks. And also kath being like best
friends with a con family but saying nothing but racist

(01:12:30):
things about them the entire time, which is like pretty
boomer behavior generally speaking, but it makes you wonder, like
she seems to have been friends with them for many,
many years, you think that she would scale back on
her extremely offensive and reductive views about this family that

(01:12:51):
she claims is like her best friends, but who knows.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Yeah, it's presented very in a way that I felt like,
cut kathle out of slack. Also the cass Emma Thompson
you're like and you don't want me to like her.
I know it's fair and I love her, but I
think it's very presented like that's just Kath as if
it warrants no examination beyond that's just Cath.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Right, because you also have Zoe sort of calling her
out sometimes but also only doing the bare minimum. She's
letting a lot of shit slide. She's also saying some
kind of weird things herself sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
Okay, that's something I had written down to you. I
was like, is kath as comically like xenophobic as she
acts just to make Zoe look less xenophobic in comparison?

Speaker 4 (01:13:43):
Maybe you're right, that sounds right, I would say, though,
with God's character, I can see somebody like her in
her generation age group saying all the things that she's saying,
So I would expect that from somebody like cats.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
It is super realistic.

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
It is super realistic, right, So I think that's why
I don't get mad at her as much, because I'm like, yeah,
I could see somebody like saying things that she's saying
in this film, right, Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
For sure, I just wish that Zoe had been more
active about like holding her mom accountable for all the
shit she was saying. But it's like, again, very bare
minimum stuff that Zoe is doing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
That's just cat.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
And then for Kaz's parents when they're like, we already
alluded to this scene, but that moment when they're listing
off the criteria that they're wanting in a partner for him,
I she was like, yeah, not too dark and long
hair and soft spoken, which to me reads like hyper

(01:14:49):
feminine there's an implication that they're only interested in someone
from like a similar class or like the same like
soff because they're they seemed to be well to do.
And then the dad says, you know a woman who's
not too ambitious or too into women's lib And I

(01:15:10):
was like, wow, yike, sir.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
And you know what, I can again see somebody from
that generation in Pakistan saying all those things, not just
that generation. I'm sure again arranged marriagers can be problematic,
but I wish Kaz said something. I wish he intervened.
I wish he said something like, oh, this is so wrong.
Why would you say all of those things? Right? He's

(01:15:35):
just sitting there quiet as if he doesn't have anything
to say. Yeah, And that really bothered me more than
his parents saying all those things.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
Totally.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
Yeah, I felt like that was I guess not in
a good way. But one of the things that Zoe
and Kaz had in comment was that Zoe very lightly
pushed back on her parents prejudice, and so did Kaz.
And I feel like that was done as a reflexive
gesture by the filmmakers to be like, well, that's how
this generation would act, and this generation doesn't approve, but

(01:16:08):
we don't see them actually do anything or meaningfully pushback
about it, so it sort of ends up being like, well,
it just felt like a kind of an empty gesture
to have them even react if there is no follow
up or yeah whatever, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
I do appreciate that. Kez challenges Zoe in that one
scene where she's like, how are we even different? And
he's like, well, you don't get asked where you're from
and how often you go back to Pakistan all the time.
You get the privilege of being able to say that
you're British not British born, like I have to say.
You know, you're not expected to apologize on behalf of

(01:16:48):
all brown people anytime there's a terror attack in the world.
So he at least does challenge her, But I wish, yeah,
there was like more pushback from the thirty two year
olds of this movie that and that scene, to me
is one of the more powerful scenes in the movie

(01:17:09):
right because it really spoke to a lot of us
who've been through those situations right where we've been judged
for somebody else's actions, or we've been treated mistreated based
on how some other people are acting or reacting.

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
So I think that really spoke to me, and I wish,
as you said, he did more of that in a
subtle way, because his dynamic with his parents would be different,
coming from an East Asian culture. He probably would be
more respectful or whatever. But he could still push back
on colorism. He could push back on how they were

(01:17:47):
objectifying women, that they were trying to upbrides, that they
were trying to look for him totally, which again is
a bit disappointing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Yeah, absolutely anything else. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?
I think so, right at least between.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
It passes between Zoe and her mom a number of times.
It doesn't pass between characters that I wish it did.
I don't think it passes between Pakistani women at any
point in the movie really, which feels again just like
if whatever I mean it. As we've discussed a million.

Speaker 6 (01:18:25):
Times, the Bechdel test is like not the be all
end all of anything, but I do think it's instructive
where it's like, if it is a diverse movie and
includes a white family in a Pakistani family and it
only passes the Bechdel test inside of the white family.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
Not great, And that's the relationship dynamic that you get
a lot more of screen time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
Than those are the women that are being prioritized.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
There are a few scenes where the grandmother is telling
her story of her marriage, and that's true, Aisha is
like translating and also kind of like talking to her.
I think also maybe towards the end when the grandmother
and Jamila interact, that could pass. But those are very

(01:19:14):
brief scenes in a movie that you would think those
characters would be interacting more.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
And I guess I was also coming from the place
of like talking about marriage. It is I thought, like
implied the yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
Right, marriage to a man, right, you're right.

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):
I think there are a couple of conversations between Eyeshine
Calf as well, which is not within the same community.
But those conversations about I guess food or culture are
outside the realm of you know, marriage, dating boys, men whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Oh and it passes when Maimuna says beautiful documentary, so we.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Oh it okay, she's like that what I said.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
But also yeah, that's the trigger point for her. That's
when she, you know, has all the power and she
gains to tell everybody that she's not interested.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yes, it's the documentary. The document the very judgy documentary
made by a white woman, empowers her to realize that's free.

Speaker 4 (01:20:21):
What if the documentary was not made, then they would
be in this relationship forever, forever.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
I kind of also love that the documentary canonically never
comes out like you're.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
Just like.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
For the best, honestly for the best? All right, Well,
moving on to the perfect metric on which to evaluate
a movie, which is of course our nipple scale, where
we rate the movie on a scale of zero to
five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional

(01:20:57):
feminist lens. And I would give this honestly, I think
it's gonna have to be like a split down the middle,
two point five, maybe three nipples. I wish I could
give it more because, as you said at the top, Sadia,
it's a rom com that features a Pakistani family and

(01:21:22):
that represents Pakistani people and Muslim people in a way
that you know, Western movies rarely do, which is great,
But because of the lens that the story is being
told through, it fumbles a lot and ends up just

(01:21:46):
saying like rather than like an objective examination of something
like an arranged or an assisted marriage, it's coming down
as like with the same point of view as the
main character, who is just being incredibly judgie and mocking

(01:22:06):
a lot of the time in a way that feels
like it there are racist undertones, Islamophobic undertones, and things
like that. So with that in mind, yeah, I think
I'll do two and a half nipples, and I will
give one to Maimuna, I'll give one to Jamila the sister,

(01:22:33):
and I'll give my half nipple to the grandmother, who
was like I had to ride off on a horse
that I was allergic to and was not really happy
about the whole thing. And then I don't know if
she is Aisha's mother or if she's wait, what's causes

(01:22:56):
Dad's name? I think she's she is Ayisha's math Okay,
so like, yeah, her daughter is like mistranslating to be
like no, it was an awesome experience full of love.
So the grandmother gets my half nipple.

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
I'm gonna give it two and a half as well.
I think that this movie, I mean we've talked about like,
I think that this movie was an attempt. I want
to be so generous to the writer as to say
her heart is in the right place. I think it
really could have benefited from a co writer, And it
seems like, even if this movie is a as she says,

(01:23:37):
like her attempt to be more inclusive and show Western
audience's a Pakistani family in this genre, which I think
is a good instinct, and it's not even like she
is a completely illogical person to do that, but it
felt like a collaboration would have sort of kept things

(01:23:58):
in check in a more responsible way, because I do
think that Pakistani families obviously should be included in all
genres of movie, including goofy rom coms like this one,
you know, goofy rom coms where there's no chemistry between
the leads. Everyone should be in those movies. Great, but

(01:24:19):
it did seem like if that is her goal strictly
having a white British woman write it, even with her
connections to Pakistan, it doesn't totally make sense and it
doesn't totally come together for this movie. And on a person,
I mean, I just felt like there were so many
women in this movie who I was more interested in

(01:24:41):
than the lead character, and it ended up being kind
of a frustrating experience of like, there is a lot here,
but the places the movie focuses are very pointed, a
very white and colonially centered and also boring, so kind
of the worst of worlds in some ways. But I

(01:25:02):
do think, you know, I I hope you know. Years
down the line, this is viewed as kind of more
of a stepping stone movie towards a more inclusive rom
com landscape. This one was kind of a miss for me,
although it had its moments and I love my Muna
and Okay, so I'm gonna do two and a half nipples.

(01:25:23):
I'm gonna give one to Mymuna, one to Jamila, and
a half to Aisha. Three characters that I thought were
really interesting, and I wish that we had gotten to
see more of them outside of how they relate to
cousin Zoe, who to me, were the least interesting characters,
and that's why I'm like, they deserve each other. I

(01:25:48):
didn't like them, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:25:51):
For me, I am I'm still confused as to whether
I should do two or two and a half because
I did have a lot of expectations from this movie
and I'm really disappointed. But I do agree that I
would give one to the grandmother. I wanted to know
more about her character and her backstory. Half to Aisha

(01:26:12):
and half each to Memuna and Jamila, because even Memuna
at times was annoying because I didn't know where she stood.

Speaker 6 (01:26:24):
It was so.

Speaker 4 (01:26:25):
Inconsistent and it bothered me. I was like, if she
has this, you know, modern liberal family, and if she
is studying to be a human rights lawyer, why why
does she pretend to be somebody else? There are so
many women in Pakistan who are comfortable expressing their agency,
especially those who come from families like Memuna's, and it

(01:26:49):
just was mind boggling to me. They weren't consistent in
her characterization and that really bothered me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
Well, Sadia, thank you so much for joining us. This
has been a treat. Come back anytime.

Speaker 3 (01:27:04):
Yeah, bring us anything we love. We love it all.

Speaker 4 (01:27:07):
Thank you so much for having me. This was so
much fun.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
Yay, Where can people check out your podcasts? Follow you
on social media, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
So podcasts Immigrantly and Invisible Heat are on every streaming platform.
They can follow me on Twitter at s w k
K and it's s w k KHN. And don't ask
me why I came up with that, because Sadia is
a very common name and I couldn't find another handle.

(01:27:39):
But You can also find immigrantly at immigrantly Underscore pod
on Twitter and on Instagram at immigrantly pod Wonderful Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
You can follow us at Bechtolcast on Twitter and Instagram.
You can also scoot over to our Patreon aka maatreon
at patreon dot com slash bechtol Cast, where you get
two bonus episodes every month for only five dollars a month,
and it also gets you access to our back catalog
of one hundred and fifty bonus episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
You can also check us out if you want some
merch over at teapublic dot com slash v Bechtel Cast
for all your merchandising needs.

Speaker 1 (01:28:21):
And with that, let's go into the treehouse and kiss.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
And take forever to kiss.

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):
Okay, bye bye