Widows with Michael-Michelle Pratt

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Doodcast, the questions asked if movies have women
in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best
start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie,
Hey Caitlin, you know how our husbands died in a

(00:24):
botched podcast episode? Or did they? Well we don't know
just yet, but let's assume that they did. Okay, okay,
do you want to maybe start our own podcast together? Wow?
But but not because we want our own podcast to
sort of like finish their unfinished podcast business. Right, we're

(00:46):
finishing their podcast. We're finishing their last podcast episode there,
and we have some people after us that if we
don't finish their podcast, they're gonna kill us. Sophie. If
we don't finish the podcast, she finds us and she
hunts us. But if we do successfully finish it, we're

(01:12):
going to be so rich. Oh well, obviously all podcasters
are extremely rich. Well, I feel pretty good about that intro.
I feel I thank you. I hope that I hope
everyone had a great time listening to it, because I
had a great time participating. Yeah, you're welcome, everybody. Hello,
and welcome to very diplomatic Welcome to the Bechdel coust

(01:34):
My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus,
And this is our podcast about ruining movies that you
previously really enjoyed using an intersectional feminist lance, or in
some cases, celebrating pretty good movies. That's true. I guess
that that would have been a more appropriate setup for
this particular episode. But yeah, this is uh, this is

(01:55):
this is our damn podcast. You know, if you're if
you're just getting here, welcome, if you've been here for
a while, kick your feet up, baby, get comfortable. Because
it's the Widows episode. We've gotten a lot of requests
for I feel like we've been getting requests for this
episode since the movie came out almost three years ago now,

(02:16):
so it's been a long time coming and I'm so
excited to cover it. Same but hold on, what is
our podcast? Oh gee whiz. It's an examination of film
through an intersectional feminist lens, right where we use the
Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate

(02:41):
a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test, of course, is
a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes
called the Bechtel Wallace test that requires our variation on
the test is that two people of any marginalized gender
have to have names, they must speak to each other,

(03:01):
and their conversation has to be about something other than
a man. Ideally it is a meaningful, plot relevant conversation,
but if it's a two line exchange, we will consider it.
We go case by case. I don't think it's a
huge issue for this particular movie, but we've we've had

(03:23):
to really get in the weeds in the past, Caitlin.
I was realizing the other day that we've been on
this podcast longer than we were in high school. WHOA
how wild? And I feel like I've learned way more same.
So we're like I did in high school. We're like
super seniors because this is our fifth year of doing
the podcast. Yeah, with no end in sight, we're never

(03:44):
going to graduate. Uh fine, by me, Let's get our
guests in here, shall we. Let's do it. She is
a freelance journalist. She's had work published in Harper's Bazaar.
She's also a film student and aspiring filmmaker. It's Michael
Michelle Pratt. Hello and welcome, holcome, Hi, thank you for

(04:06):
having me. Know I'm a huge fan, and I'm really
excited h to be here, and I like, I love
this movie. So I'm very excited. We're so happy to
have you. We're so psyched. Uh So we're covering Widows.
It's a movie directed by Steve McQueen, screenplay by Steve
McQueen and Jillian's God damn it, I am a misogynist,

(04:35):
which is why I didn't double check her name before.
But either way, uh so, so Michael Michelle to get
stuff started. What is your history with this movie? Yeah,
so I wanted to go see in theaters. Uh. I
think it might have been I don't know it was

(04:55):
the opening weekend or the weekend after opening weekend. By
I thought with my mom, Um, I I like, I like,
I really like the late night shoving because I love
the trailer. Um, I think why all Davis is just
you know her existence, I just all the reformances if
for everything, I love her. Um, I'm not a huge
told me to Slafe you have, but I love everything

(05:15):
else take me. I think he's also really brilliant. Um.
And so I was just like I was like really
psyched for this and so I love the trailer and
when to go see it? Um and then it was
really mad. It was like me and my mom and
like one one other guy in the corner. I was like,
this is oh no one else was there. No, it
was like three of us just at this like awkwards
like eleven Black Night screening, and I was like, wow, okay.

(05:40):
I was like, I was like, what did your mom think?
So she she liked it, but she didn't like the
ending because she my mom hated like in being its endings.
And I was like, that's the fun of it because
they're like maybe they've become friends who don't know and
they've been like this whole this really tumultuous, traumatic future,
but they're kind a friend and it's cool and I

(06:01):
love it being the new films. That's like my thing.
But she was like, but she was like I wanted
like more closure of but that wasn't the point. But fine.
I was like you. I was like, you know, fine,
but yeah, she wouldn't and she wasn't really a fan
of the of the ending. But other than that, I
think I think she liked this. Yeah, nice Jamie, what
about you what's your relationship with the movie. Not too much.

(06:25):
I had seen it. I think I hadn't. I hadn't
seen it until Quarantine last year, but I had a
copy of it at my house. My my boyfriend's a
huge fan of this movie. He seen it like ten times.
It's like one of his comfort movies or even though
it's like not even that old of a movie, so

(06:45):
he was like, you're going to sit down with me
and watch it. Not very comforting either, No, it's kind
of stressful, but I have I don't know, I feel
like everyone has a stressful comfort movie where it's like
I can't exactly put my finger on why this would
bring me peace, but for some reason it does. I mean,
Titanic is definitely one of my comfort movies and also

(07:05):
not comforting at all and bodies are hitting the floor
the whole time. Um, but yes, I I just saw
it last year and now I think I've seen it
three times. And it's so it's already so interesting where
this movie is three years old, but I feel like
already having a little bit of distance from it. It's

(07:26):
really interesting to watch back because this was like immediately
after the Me Too movement started. Movie and I feel
like that is very present and how it was marketed
and already just with a couple of years of distance
from it. I really enjoyed the movie. It's like such
a blast. The cast is like, I can't think of
a more fun cast for a movie. And yeah, I

(07:51):
don't know, I feel like there's so much to talk about.
It's uh, it's it's a goddamn romp. Uh. What about you, Caitlin,
what's your history with this? I didn't see it in theaters,
but I saw it a few months later. You know,
I remember there being quite a bit of buzz about it,
and it won some awards, I think some BAFTA's, I believe.

(08:13):
Um so I this is a very British movie for
a movie that takes place in Chicago. I did not
know Steve McQueen was English until I really started reading
some stuff about him. Yeah. I don't know how I
missed that detail, but I did make the kind of
stray observation that there are a lot of British and

(08:36):
Irish actors in this movie playing Americans, between Colin Farrell,
Liam Neeson and Daniel Coloya. Yeah, like, once you know
Steve McQueen is from the UK. You're like, oh, yeah,
that's why half of this cast is very much not
from Chicago. Yeah. Um so, anyway, I saw the movie.

(08:56):
I love a good heist movie, and Cynthia Arriva too
is British, I believe. Sorry, oh she Okay, I got it.
But yeah, I thought it was a really well crafted
movie and I was excited to watch it again and
to discuss it right here on this EPISODEEP. Should we
get into the recamp, let's do it. Okay. So the

(09:22):
movie begins with a robbery that is taking place by
a team of four men. We also cut to like
quick glimpses of their home lives and we see them
with their wives, their wives, their wives. The ringleader is

(09:42):
Harry Rawlings. That's Liam Neeson. He is married to Veronica
Rawlings that is Viola Davis. The other other wives are
This is gonna be very hard for me to not
constantly do this. I mean that's literally the premise of
the movie. Like, I've their wives their dead husband's exactly

(10:06):
every first seconds, just they have to remind they're dead, right.
Uh So the other wives are Linda that's Michelle Rodriguez,
Alice that's Elizabeth DEBICKI, and I think of her as
Mrs Tennant. That's the only other thing I know her from.

(10:27):
She's really tall. She's really tall, and she was in Tennant.
I did not realize that was her, Yes, Tenant. I mean,
I feel like I blacked it all out, but she
was definitely in it. Good to know. I didn't see that.
How did that turn out? I know? Assaulted? How did
that know? How did that go? I don't know. I
feel like I would have had more fun if, like

(10:49):
if they had just like held onto it and released
it when people could go to theaters. But because it
was like I watched it at a drive in and
I had no idea what was happening. And I tried
to watch it on streaming and I was like, I
still have no idea, Like, I don't know. I saw

(11:09):
it in the comfort of my own home. Granted it
was in the middle of the night and I was
tired and falling asleep, but I didn't follow the story
at all. I think the world building is really confusing
and like not set up very well. But again, it
could have been that I was asleep, if hard Christopher Nolan, Okay,
here's my here's my hot take if Christopher Nolan is

(11:30):
so interested in time, why he has he wasted so
much of mine? And then imagine me dunking a basketball
and then not not just dropping a microphone, but like
throwing it across the room. The microphone explodes. Um, okay,
so we've met the other wife, so it's Linda Ellis

(11:53):
and then Amanda, also played by Carry Coon. Then we
see the robbery go all wrong. The men are shot
and killed and also exploded by cops. Yeah. I kind
of appreciated that they triple killed the guy. I was like, Okay,
so there's or at least I thought spoiler ahead, but

(12:18):
I was like, Wow, these guys are super dead. They
couldn't be deader just and they keep saying over and
over like they're just ye, just shot everywhere, just they
were on the ground. They keep reiterating to let you know,
like they're super dead, like they have to keep reiterating
it could not be less alive, to the point that

(12:39):
like later later when it's like the the big Gillian
Flynn style to whist comes up, you're kind of like, oh,
I guess that they like almost lay it on too
thick that they're super dead. You're like, oh, okay, I
fell for I totally fell for it. The first time
I saw this movie, I did not see the twist
coming at all. There Oh, no, me neither. I was

(13:02):
like what I was, I can't excuse me. I was like,
I was in the doorway. What right? Yeah, it was
a it was a solid twist. I feel like there's
so many twists, are so easy to predict. But gone
girl got us, Baby, she got us again, Gone girl,

(13:23):
Gillian gets us again. Wow, the alliteration is astounding, incredible. Headline. Okay,
so the men are shot and killed and exploded, meaning
the wives are now widows. That's the name of the movie. Okay.
Then we meet Jack Mulligan that's Colin Farrell, and we

(13:47):
meet Jamal Manning that's Brian Tyree Henry. They are both
politicians running for alderman of Chicago's eighteenth ward. I had
to look up what that was, and now I know
it's basically like a city council member. Right. Yeah, I
never I never figured out with the actual office. What's

(14:08):
Every time I watched it, I'm like, you know, it's
some kind of political thing. I don't know exactly, but
I'm just gonna I'm just like, something this up. You know,
there's some kind of office going on. I had to
read that elsewhere. I did not figure this out on
my own. I kind of wish they told you in
the movie because it's like, yeah, because it's not clear.
It is just like a city council and position. I

(14:29):
felt so I when I realized that both of their
initials were j M, I was like, oh, wow, makes
you think I got really excited. What does it mean?
I don't know, but I was just like that has
to be on purpose, right, Yeah, not not sure. So
they're running for Chicago's eighteenth Ward, which is a predominantly

(14:53):
low income black neighborhood. Jack is trying to get Jamal
to drop out of the race, but he refuses. We
also meet Jamal's brother, Ja Tem that's Daniel Coloya, and
we at some point around this time also meet Jack
Mulligan's father, Tom Mulligan, who is a career politician, full

(15:16):
on evil Robert. So we meet these politicians and then
some of their family. Right, So the Mulligan's are this
almost like Chicago Kennedy's, like just clinging to power but
don't actually care about anybody. Sort of family and then
Jamal is kind of like a I heard Steve McQueen

(15:39):
in an interview be like he's my Michael Corleone, and
I was like, oh, that kind of does make sense.
Like he's he's like a Godfather style guy, and it's
like the I don't know, Daniel Klliya, it seems like
is having so much fun in this movie, Like he's
having a blast his care he's scary. Yeah, yeah, what's

(16:03):
he made to be? He's so scart, He's so scart
with such little dialogue and it's all like the Pasha
and the shoulders and and you're so frightened. But when
he's doing all of his in commanding such space and
was staying that's a little I'm just every time I watched,
I'm like, but and you can tell he's enjoying all
of it, and it's just it's a great performance. And

(16:23):
he's such a talented actor. He's so good and it's
so fun to watch actors having fun, especially in sequences
like I mean, so many of his sequences are and
like mob movies are like has never really been my genre.
But it's like when someone is like, you know, Daniel
Khalia comes in the room. You're like, oh, he's going
to kill someone in a way that's really interesting to watch,

(16:46):
and it keeps happening. It's oh my god when he
kills the guy, and then he watches football when he
kills the guy while he's singing You're wild love it
um okay. So then we learn that the botched robbery
that we saw was Harry Rawlings and his team stealing
two million dollars from Jamal Manning, and that that money

(17:09):
burnt up in the explosion. Then we cut back to
the wives, the widows of the robbers morning their late husbands.
We meet Bash, that's Harry's driver. He gives Veronica a
key to a safety deposit box. This is something that
Harry wanted her to have if anything ever happened to him.

(17:32):
Then Jamal approaches Veronica. He knows that her husband stole
from him and he wants the two million dollars back.
He says that she has a month to liquidate her
assets and get that money to him. We've also, by
this point seen Jetam murder a couple of people, so
we know that these guys mean business and that the

(17:56):
stakes are very high for Veronica. She then goes to
the safety deposit box and inside is a notebook that
details Harry's next job, a five million dollar robbery. Um
So then Veronica contact the other widows. She has the

(18:16):
idea to work with them to pull off this five
million dollar heist so that she can take some of
that money and pay Jamal back and then they will
split the rest. So Linda and Alice show up, but
the other widow, Amanda, does not, so Veronica convinces Linda
and Alice to do this. It's established that they are

(18:40):
both struggling financially after the death of their husband's right,
they're not like as in immediate danger as Veronica. It
doesn't seem like which was one of my story issues
where I'm like, hmmm, if I were Michelle Rodriguez, i
might say no, thank you, I'm not interested. But I

(19:01):
was like the all time, I can't think. I was like,
does that seem like as pressing for you? So I
was like, I can't, Like if I could like not that,
I'd be like, you know, good financial security. I feel
like that like that is enough to like get you
into the premise and all of that. But but yeah,
as the movie was going on, and it was like
Oh my god, all these women cut Like. I know

(19:23):
that they're not going to die because movie, but like
the stakes are extremely high for what kind of is
Like Michelle Rodriguez is like, well, I don't want to
say I didn't do this because feminism. I was like,
but then your kids wouldn't have a parent. She does
have children, which you would think maybe she'd be like,

(19:44):
I can't get into this very risky, dangerous heist because
I might die. But I did buy that that she
and Alice were motivated enough to do it because of
their very precurious financial situation, So I don't know, know
that makes sense. Yeah, So anyway, the three of them
get to work on planning the heist. They need guns,

(20:08):
they need a van, They have a blueprint, but they
don't know where this house is, so there's a lot
that they have to acquire and figure out. So they
get to work on that. Meanwhile, the Manning's intimidate some
people that Veronica knows, basically trying to figure out what
she's up to. They kill bash her driver. So now

(20:31):
they have to find the football murder scene. That's a
football murder scene. I think that was my favorite. Daniel
Kolea can't be murder scene. I have a like a
whole kind of spiel about that, which we'll get to.
But um, yeah, interesting choices were made. Um. But the
bottom line is that they now have to find a

(20:51):
new getaway driver, which, um, Jamie you pointed out it's
Michelle Rodriguez. Yeah, so take it away. I was laughing
my head off when Michelle Rodriguez enters the scene and
she's like, we need a new driver. I was like,
speaking of people who would know a thing or two
about driving, Mrs Fast and Furious, I was, And then

(21:12):
they have her character. I feel like they like that
had to have been intentional that whenever someone is like
we need a driver, it's only Michelle Rodriguez being like
we needed drivers and cars. I'm like, yeah, exactly. We
love an Internet to neverdic universe. She is car Cannon.
They need a crossover film to bring these two worlds together.

(21:36):
The Widows would fit right in in the Fast and
Furious Expanded Universe. I feel I think Rodriguez Universe, Yeah,
that could be a thing. Okay, So then we get
a reveal that Harry Rawlings is still alive. He had
faked his death and it turns out that he's been

(21:57):
having an affair with Amanda, the widow who hasn't been
showing up, and he is sticking around for now to
I think, take the money that Veronica is planning to
steal that? What's that? I think? So that was a
little camp like where there were that twist was I

(22:18):
was very impressed with the twist. I just didn't see
it coming. But then I was like, wait a second,
huh where like Jack Mulligan is involved there on a boat,
Carrie Coon's involved, You're like, wait a second, what's the
end goal here? And then and then it didn't really
become story relevant. I was like at first when I

(22:39):
was like okay, I was like I was surprised. But
then they after the boat and I was like, how
no one so no one's aware of this? How is
how was he able to get him just? I was like,
that was right. I was like, this is a little
distant now. Yeah, I also am unclear about So the
initial job that goes wrong is them stealing from Jamal

(23:03):
Manning like on behalf of Jack Mulligan, But then Harry's
next job was stealing from Jack Mulligan on behalf of
someone I don't know. Yeah, I feel like Harry. Harry
doesn't vote, Like I feel like he doesn't care who
wins or who loses. But yeah, like I don't know.

(23:23):
Maybe a listener will like point something out and there's
something very clear that I wasn't seeing, but involving the politicians.
On top of like that, I just felt like a
hat on top of a hat, and I got confused.
And then again it's like, all I guess technically, all
you really need to know is that Harry is alive
and he was cheating on Veronica. But it was, Yeah,

(23:46):
it was a little confusing. We also get a flashback
where we learn about Harry and Veronica's son Marcus, and
we learned that he was pulled over and then shot
to death by cops. We cut back to the President.
The widows figure out where the blueprints are four a

(24:09):
K the house that they plan to break into, and
it turns out to be Jack Mulligan's house. Then Linda A. K.
Michelle Rodriguez, She's like, we need a driver, and then
she finds a driver. Well, I mean, who else is
gonna do it? In Diesel, He's not in the movie.

(24:30):
She recruits her babysitter Belle played by Cynthia Arrivo to
be their getaway driver, and she and Veronica scope out
Jack's house. Um. They do a little reconnaissance type stuff.
Then it is time for the heist. Is the same
night as the debate between Jack Mulligan and Jamal Manning.

(24:54):
The women get to the house, they make their way in,
they grabbed the five million dollars. Tom Mulligan a k.
Robert Duval tries to stop them. They shoot him and
kill him in a death that no one has ever
cared about less than the entire right. We're like, good ridden,
You're like I was okay, Yeah, You're like, you raise

(25:18):
this piece of ship. It's just a fringe benefit to
this highest is that we killed the worst characters. Yeah.
She's like, oh yeah, by um. So they kill him,
but then Alice gets shot in the process. They have
to kind of scramble to get away to tem hijacks

(25:41):
their van as they're getting away, but then they follow
him in another vehicle they crashed into him. They get
the money back and it seems like they've successfully pulled
off the heist. They drop Alice off at the er
and then Veronica goes back to like whatever garage warehouse
place is their rendezvous point. But who shows up but

(26:05):
Harry Rawlings and he's there to take the money she stole,
and she's like, you fucking bastard, and he's about to
shoot her, but she shoots and kills him first. Great moment. Yeah,
and then we tie up some loose ends with Belle

(26:25):
and Linda, and then the movie ends with Veronica running
into Alice, who survived her gunshot. It's implied that it's
several weeks or months later. They share a little moment
where Veronica is like, how are you doing? Cinema? And
also Alice has learned to drive at that point, because

(26:47):
we learned earlier in the movie that she didn't know
how to drive, But then we see her getting into
the driver's seat of a car, so it's like, I
guess Alice learned to drive. Good for her full arc
of an amazing arc. That's the story. So let's take
a quick break and then we will come right back
to discuss. And we're back. Where shall we start. I

(27:15):
kind of want to get I'm tempted to get the
stuff that we didn't like out of the way first,
or the more critical elements and then we can kind
of move into the stuff that was fine. Can I start, yes,
please go ahead, I have a gripe. I think it's
the second act where Michelarity gets character of Linda. She's
she's going she's going to go and she's kind of um,

(27:36):
she's going to go visit the man to go to
go steal the the prince kind of she's so she's
pretending basically, UMA know this man's wife, and then he
kind of and then he kind of figured out that
that she doesn't um, and then she kind of reveals,
you know, that she has lost her husband. And then
they like odd they like to make out, and I

(27:57):
was like, how did this? This isn't really this is
an advanced in the plot. I don't I first said.
I was like, I was like, oh, she's doing this
like fake him out to get the blueprint. But then
I realized, wait, or is it like phase value? And
they just like awkwardly made out, and then it kind
of seen out of character because I was like, what
did she do that? And I was like and I

(28:18):
was like, how I just didn't do anything going forward?
So we're just sitting here and this is awkward and
I was like, this is always so time. I almost
forgot that that even happened. Yeah, that was an interesting
moment that I felt like that could have been something
more exploratory of like grief and all this other stuff,

(28:40):
but then it just kind of ended up being confusing
and like whatever. It's it's not like people don't trauma
bond over certain life events and things get weird sometimes
like that definitely happens. I'm not opposed to seeing that
in a movie, but you're totally right, Michael Mitchelle where
it's like it didn't advance the plot at all, and
then it to me kind of came off as like

(29:02):
they were just having Michelle Rodriguez's character like use her
like womanly Wiles so like advance the plot. And I
don't know, I feel like, yeah, there there were I
feel like there were better options there on how to
or it's like if you're going to make that choice,
then like like you're saying, like, have it have more

(29:22):
consequence and actually explore it versus like just this very
bizarre I mean, it's like it didn't even come up
in the summary because it's so kind of like that
could have end on point, could have happened in so
many different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I've seen this movie,
my reaction is always like huh, because then I expected

(29:43):
seemed to keep going a little bit and then for
him to be like, okay, here, I'll we kissed, so
I'll help you out, which also I guess that would
have weird implications to probably be kind of lazy too, Yeah,
kind of just bizarre. Yeah, so I guess I'm more
find that it cut well narratively. It's weird that it
doesn't go anywhere. But if it was that she was like, well,

(30:06):
I'm going to seduce, like basically exploit the grief I
feel about my husband to manipulate and seduce this man,
like that would also have been weird and probably not great.
It's like who among us hasn't made out with a
Rando when they were sad about something. But it was
just like the way it was introduced was like, yeah,
I felt that say way, Kaitlin, where you're like huh,

(30:28):
but then it never comes back, so I don't know shrug.
One thing that stuck out to me. I had a
few things with this movie that felt just I don't know,
and it's like it is nippicky because over all the
movies super enjoyable. I'm so glad, like I will absolutely
be watching it again. Um. In terms of like the
the political side of it, there were some parts of

(30:51):
the Jack Mulligan jamal Man in conflict that I thought
were like so well executed and so well done, and
a lot of it was like in the photography where
there's that amazing shot where you're watching Jack Mulligan leave
the eighteenth District and drive to his fucking McMansion talking

(31:12):
about how little he cares, Like that's so that's brilliant,
Like that might be that might be my favorite team
in the movie. I think it's that tracking shot and
you can't see them and you're just hearing the dialogue
as they're moving forward. I just I was like, it's brilliant. Yeah,
And it's like once you realize where that's going, it's amazing.
And it's like, so you know, obviously like such so

(31:35):
unfortunately something that happens in local like in local and
national politics constantly, and I thought it was so well executed.
I guess the thing that I that kind of chafed
me with that plotline was I appreciate and I totally
like how the movie and the script really gets into
this whatever Kennedy asked, Chicago family that are just like

(31:58):
these rich white guy that are clinging onto power. And
I mean the Robert Duval character in some ways is
like a cartoonist example of of the like extreme lengths
that these kind of legacy white families what they'll do
to hold onto power. And I wish that we got
that same amount of attention to detail with the Mannings,

(32:23):
because I feel like we got a lot of information
about the Mulligan's. I felt like you really understood what
the movie was trying to say about that, like that
kind of political dynasty, and I wish that there was
because we spend a lot of time with Jamal Manning
and with is to Tim to time, I think I

(32:45):
just kept being like dlue, yeah, but but but with
with those brothers, But I feel like you don't find
out as much about them as you do. Like I
felt like I knew way more about the Mulligan's than
I did about the Mannings, and I wish that that
had been more of and even handed plotline because I
loved I mean, I'm very interested in your thoughts on
the the murder scenes that kind of are taken out

(33:08):
because at first I wasn't sure where to fall in it,
and I went to watch just some interviews with Steve
McQueen to see like what his kind of motivation was
with those, and once it became clear that he's like, oh,
I'm doing like these are Godfather, this is my Godfather scene,
I was like, Okay, Like once I made that connection,
it made more sense to me. But I still feel like,

(33:29):
you know, with The Godfather, you know a shipload about
that family, and so it's like when those murder scenes
take place, you thoroughly know who those characters are, what
their motivations are, and then you see something really fucked up,
and I feel like the Mannings didn't get that. I
don't know what what what did y'all think? I felt
like a lot of the impact of that it's a

(33:51):
lot has a lot to do with with Daniel's performance,
but but it's not necessarily because of the writing, and
so I don't feel like I feel I feel like
it could have been more impactful if, like you said,
if you knew, if he knew about their motives, and
I thought about I feel like after the first scene,
after we first meet him. When he first meeting Um character,
you don't he kind of said a little bit beforehand,

(34:14):
after him Indiana's character Kum talking about his motivation to
kind out front, But after that, you don't really see
or hear a lot about about how about how he's
kind of feeling at the works, prograssing really or really
like anything about his back story. And so I was
I was like, visually, that's great, but I don't feel
as connectical as I could if I knew why that's

(34:34):
what's happening totally. Yeah. There's a scene pretty early on
between the two brothers where jattem which, by the way,
there's a funny joke, where isn't that like French for
I love you? Yeah? I guess it would be more
pronounced like Tim. But that's what that's what Jack Mulligan
thinks Jatima is saying when he's introducing himself, because then

(34:55):
he says, I love you too. I didn't even pick
up on that, And then Daniel Killerya is just like
what but um, anyway, j Tim is talking to his
brother and he's like, why do you even want to
get into politics? And then Jamal sites, well, yeah, I mean,
an alderman makes whatever salary per year and a times like,

(35:19):
well we make that in a week, implied that like
they're kind of like criminal activity was way more lucrative.
And then he's saying, well, yeah, but you stand to
make a lot more money with different contracts and you know,
like building developments and blah blah blah this stuff. And
when that happens, people come after you with cameras and

(35:40):
microphones versus before when when we were doing what we
were doing, people were coming after us with guns and
I'm thirty seven, Like, I don't want that life anymore.
So it's established that part of Jamala's motivation is he
kind of like wants to quote unquote straighten out um
or like you know, live a more virtuous life, I guess,

(36:00):
which is hilarious to think of as a politician. Um right,
if you're like, yeah, sure, the city council really doing
the good work, right, but um, I mean, and that's
like really interesting insight. And I wish we then got
more information like that, But as far as I can remember,
there wasn't much else in the way of that type

(36:21):
of characterization for the Mannings. No, And I was kind
of surprised because it's like it is such a rich
set up and I feel like, especially like Jamal and
Jettam are such compelling characters and both played by fucking
unbelievable actors, and then there's not enough backstory given to

(36:42):
really like, I felt like, bring those characters to have
the impact that they could have and should have. The
other main gripe I had with this movie revolves around
the character of Bobby Welsh. He is the character who
owns the Bowling Alley. He is a friend slash associate

(37:04):
of Harry Rawlings. He seems to know about the like
various robberies that he pulls off. The character uses a wheelchair,
but the actor Kevin J O'Connor does not, So another
example of a able bodied actor playing a disabled character.
Just how disabled at it? Just they exist there there.

(37:29):
It can't be a little struggle. I just why it's
not hard, couldn't be easier. They're out there. And then
the other thing with this character is that we see
him being brutalized in a way that is very specific
to the character's disability because he is shoved out of
his wheelchair. He is then stabbed in the legs several

(37:52):
times by j Tem because ja Tem knows that he
can't feel it because he's paralyzed from his waist down.
It's a very long, drawn out scene, and I guess
the function of the scene is to just show how
relentless and dangerous Jettem is. But we already know that
because we've seen him a people He made yeah, I

(38:16):
mean he was making those two guys freestyle and then
killed the mid freestyle, like we know that he is
d t K. He's down to kill. It felt unnecessarily long,
and every time I watched it, I have to just
give it. I'm like, I can't it just it feels
unnecessarily cool, and I'm like, I'm not I'm not gonna

(38:38):
sit here and I'm not gonna see her here, and
and watched this, I can't. Yeah, I can't do it totally.
Especially it feels I think it might be a trope
at this point in media, where a disabled character is
very unnecessarily brutalized. And then I was foreshadowing this earlier,

(38:59):
but the scene where Jamal comes in and like his
guys kill bash. Compare this scene with the way that
the Bobby Welsh character is brutalized to the Bash scene,
because all the violence in the Bash getting killed scene
is implied off screen. It happens off screen because then

(39:21):
you pan over to which attem watching football and you
only like hear the violence but you don't see it.
So like just that dichotomy of like we see a
long scene of a character with a disability being brutalized
versus in that very specific way, yes, yeah, versus the
able bodied character that happens off screen, and that just

(39:43):
felt very unnecessary and gross and didn't like it. I
think also if it felt like the attack for the
diity of character felt felt very specific to that disability,
and then and then to keep showing it over and
over on camera, it felt like it's kind of taking
away the dignity from the character as opposed to say,
a body character and giving him the dignity. I'm not

(40:04):
having us watch it. I was just like that was
really unnecessary, right, yeah, And I mean and it's even
from I mean, I feel like the more you get
into it is like, even from a story perspective, those
two choices feel very pointed because you would think Bash
is a character that we know much better, So the
impact of seeing him get killed on screen would theoretically

(40:27):
be greater than watching Bobby, a character we barely know,
be brutalized for in a much longer scene, like you
were both saying, and so it does kind of come
down to I don't know. I mean, it's I it's
hard because it's like I don't want to come down
hard on this movie. But like that choice, You're totally right.
I mean it's it's very, very pointed, and it doesn't

(40:49):
even make it. It makes no story sense. There's no
there's no real argument for any of it to happen. Yeah,
my last Okay, so this is kind of, I guess
gets us into what we will probably be talking about
a lot more, which is the Widows. So let's let's
get into Widows. I okay, I was genuinely I I

(41:14):
read um, I watched the whole movie through, was taken
my little notes and by the end of the movie.
Let me know if I'm off here from being like
overly picky, I felt like the widows did not know
each other well enough. I was not like they weren't
friends ever. And that is not really a Bechtel Cast

(41:39):
style criticism. I feel like it's more of a story
criticism for me where I read a really good piece
from a Vice writer named Amor Mercer who did kind
of a comparative study between Widows and set it Off,
a movie that we've covered on the show and is
so good and it it's, you know, an all female

(42:00):
highst It's it's incredible and is dealing with some I mean,
it's definitely not a one to one comparison, but I
don't know. As I was just reading her kind of
comparative essay between the two movies, I was like, oh, yeah,
part of I mean, there's so many things that makes
Set It Off a compelling movie to watch, but a
lot of it is like the relationships between the women

(42:24):
performing the highest and how their relationships grow and change
over the movie. I felt like it's just like so
well done and so when as things continue to happen,
you really feel it. And I didn't quite feel that
kind of like connection between the widows where they're definitely
like their relationships develop, but then there were some relationships

(42:46):
that felt kind of forced to me or like they
didn't totally make sense or I don't know, I just
I this is maybe just like a personal taste thing
but I'm like, I wish that I understood how they
felt about each other a little more. It felt a
little vague to me. No, I I feel the same
way in that. Yeah, I agree that one of the

(43:07):
most compelling things about Set It Off is the relationship.
And honestly, any kind of like get the team together
and pull law job kind of movie, you usually get
a lot of tension and intrigue and theme and comic
relief and a lot of the things that like make

(43:27):
a story great from the relationship between the characters, and
we obviously see them interact quite a bit, although there
is an awful lot of screen time dedicated to like
Jack Mulligan and other characters I don't care about and
I hate. But I was like, yeah, I would have

(43:48):
liked to see more interaction between the widows and just
more screen time dedicated to the way those relationships develop up.
And yeah, it felt like there was a lot of
like I mean, and again it's like it's a romp,
it's a movie, Like I get it, But but there
was a lot of like, I feel like, the main

(44:09):
thing you got out of them talking was kind of
surface level class discussion, which is which is worthwhile and
I'm glad that it happened, but it sort of just
felt like some of the only interactions between certain pairs
in the um in the Widows universe was like, oh, okay,
so Alice and Linda they're both working class, and so

(44:33):
they're going to have a three line exchange about how
they're working class and they feel like Veronica doesn't get it,
and then you don't really get much more with those characters.
They just sort of established, like we have this thing
in common, but then it doesn't really I don't know,
I just wish that like some of those issues got
more explored, and it felt like some things were like
stated but then not really followed through on. I don't know.

(44:57):
I feel like I feel like a lot of the classes,
I feel like we're discussed more. What's the political storyline?
I feel like Widows and I was like, oh, I
thought it was interesting. I like to be able to
handle both. But I was like, but the primary story
is the Widow, so why not or why not have
them converge more. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(45:18):
because it's like I mean, it's not like the characters
that are established wouldn't be able to like very easily
have those conversation. But You're totally right. It's like we
see Jack and Jamal have those discussions more in depth
than we see some of the widows have those. I
totally agree with that, and I feel like there were

(45:39):
I feel like we got to know Veronica and Alice well,
and then the other two women we did not really
find very much out about, to the point where it
was like their arcs weren't didn't feel like they were
as impactful, because I mean, it's like, what do we
really know about Michelle Rodriguez's character other than she's now

(46:03):
a single mom of two who used to own a
business but now it doesn't like that's kind of it.
She doesn't really have any depth beyond that, And it
would almost it would almost kind of sees what if
she maybe maybe if she want to mention but but
was still kind of more involved and had screen time,
but she doesn't really have preetime either, and then they

(46:24):
kind of have her bringing another character, Valdas, also doesn't
really get dimensions, So I'm like, you had I want
a character that doesn't get dimention thing they get to mention,
and so they just kind of just kind of floating
and I thought it was interesting the way that they
had bell and and Ronda kind of face off to
it when she's introduced and she kind of asserts herself
and is like freaking directly off, like okay, it's interesting

(46:47):
like contrast. But but then she gets at the car
and just kind of leaves, and I was like, she's
so you're just so we're just we're not going to
explore okay, all right, right, It's like Cynthia Rivo is
like so unbelievably talented, and but like her character comes
in forty five minutes into the movie, I think, and

(47:07):
then it's like, oh, we're gonna have to play catch up.
We've got to like we've got to get her really
involved if she's gonna you know. But but then it's
like they don't really follow through on that where I
really liked how that sequence with her getting to the
second job was composed, and like that was another really
cool cinematography moment where she gets home and she sees

(47:31):
her daughter for a second, but then she gets a
call from it turns out Michelle Rodriguez saying, Hey, I
need a sitter, and she's in such financial straits that
she has to run to catch the bus to get
to a second job, and I was like, that was
such a well executed sequence and sets her character and
her kind of predicament up, But then where does it go?

(47:52):
Like I feel like, yeah, her character deserved a more
complete arc and like more relations chips with the women
she was around, and it just felt like, I don't know.
I mean, I guess that there are kind of two
movies going on inside of this movie, which I'm not
opposed to, but it's like the movie is called Widows.

(48:13):
I would like to know about the widow Widows. Yeah,
I have to imagine that part of that is a
byproduct of the movie being adapted from a TV series.
It's adapted from a nineteen eight three British TV series
also called Widows from I think like writer creator Linda

(48:36):
la Plant and that was a several episode narrative. I
haven't seen it, and I don't know much about the series,
so I don't know exactly what was like lifted from
that and put into this adaptation, or you know, what
was left out. But I I wonder if some of
what feels kind of condensed and it's just like thoroughly developed,

(49:01):
is because there's like actually more story than a feature
length film has time to tell. I don't know, I'm
not gonna let them quite get away with that. Well, yeah,
I don't think it's an excuse, but I think it's
maybe like a reason. I did a little bit of
research on it. I did not watch the series. I
was unable to find it, but um I did. I

(49:23):
watched a bunch of interviews with Steve McQueen, and I
guess that he had really wanted to adapt this series specifically.
I guess it's something he saw when he was a
kid and he was like really into it, and he
gave we can link to this interview, but um, he
was really compelled by the mini series when he was

(49:45):
a kid, because I think it's like equally hit upon
in that eighties mini series that a lot of the
reason that the widows are able to get away with
this heist is because they're underestimated by everyone around them,
because they're women, because they're women. And Steve McQueen gave
an interview where he was like, and I really connected

(50:06):
to that because I was a young black kid growing
up in London and I felt like I was also
constantly underestimated and so it was a story that really
resonated with me, even though it wasn't like a one
to one thing, And so I thought like his connection
to the story was really cool, and that Gillian Flynn
was brought in was like also interesting. And but I

(50:28):
don't really like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I
it seems like, I mean, the original source material seems
pretty different in that, like the basic premise is the same,
but Steve McQueen and Jillian and Gillian Flynn have changed
the setting, they have changed the time period, They've changed
a lot of stuff. So I feel like they had

(50:49):
already taken enough creative updating and liberties to kind of
course correct some of this stuff that And I mean
it's like we don't who knows the kind of studio
notes movies like highst movies go through and in any
movies go through. So I'm not saying it's like all
on them, but there were certain things that was like
they've already changed a lot about the source material, so

(51:10):
why not give half of the widows a story? Like
I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. Um, let's take
a quick break and then we'll come back for more
discussion and we're back. Um, should we get into what

(51:34):
works more effectively in this movie, such as it's fun
and I like it this I suppose it is a romp,
but it's more it's a way darker, more serious romp
than I usually associate with romps. It's a serious romp.
It's a heavy romp. Yeah, yeah, But I mean I

(51:56):
find it really cool and compelling that there's a lot
of commentary being made throughout the movie on things like class, race,
and gender, because a lot of heist movies do not
bother with any kind of social commentary. It's usually just
a bunch of white guys who decide to steal money

(52:17):
for sometimes no reason, or sometimes it's because, you know,
George Clooney wants to have a dick measuring contest with
Andy Garcia for example. That is I mean, I am
still waiting for that movie where a diverse group of
women steal a bunch of ships for no reason, Like

(52:38):
I feel like that is deserved because it's like I
was thinking about, like this movie and Oceans eight, where
it's like their reasons for stealing are still virtuous enough
that they're not like evil people, or it's like what
let the women be evil, just like no one asks

(52:59):
why George Clooney wants this money. Can't Viola Davis just
steal two million dollars, just let her do it. But this,
I like that this movie does what it does. I
totally agree, and I think also I think what I say,
I do kind of like that they're not friends in
a way. I kind of what does when I think
I thought was school, I felt I feel like a
lot of I feel like a lot of temo the fact.

(53:20):
Now it's like, oh, they're all somehow interconnected and they're
all friends. But I do kind of like, I think
I like that this I felt like what was the
most ground in reality? I felt like and I felt
that these women just aren't friends, but they did come
together in the for survival. That what I got? What
do you like? And then and then I do other things.
I do think. I do think the crime was kind

(53:42):
of heavy butody, but I do feel he's able to
hand on the boat without dropping the ball on either
really so at the run times, I feel those are
definitely my favorite's my favorite aspect. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
And then we also like see them fumble and they
you know, Michelle rock Riguez is like, what the hell

(54:05):
am I supposed to do with this blueprint? And Veronica
is like, by being smarter than you are being right now.
So it's it's cool that like we see them come
together under these high stakes circumstances and have to figure
it out along the way, right, and have like realistic conflict,

(54:25):
right because like even though this is what like their
husbands did professionally, like they are not trained skilled high stirs, thieves, etcetera.
That training was also one of my favorite parts of
the movie because she just Veronic could just sounds like
this really I like Jim Teacher and they're just like,
we hate you, and I'm just like there was some

(54:48):
I don't know if either of you watched. I didn't.
I watched like the first two or three seasons, but
How to Get Away with Murder, But there were some
moments in this movie that I was like, oh, this
is like full on Analy's keating moments where it's just
like Viola Davis is like, why are you incompetent? Which
is basically that entire show. Oh my god. My favorite.

(55:09):
One of my favorite exchanges is when Veronica is like,
here's two thousand dollars, get some guns, and Alice is like, guns,
where am I going to get guns? And Veronica was like,
this is America, a k you can get guns like
everywhere out literally. That was also also one of my

(55:31):
favorite things I think was the gun things I got. Also,
it was really um interesting kind of like to square
Alf's character. I think also was really when she approaches
that woman and like pretends to be I think a
mail order bride, and the little girl is like, Mommy,
you always said a gun is a girl's best friend,

(55:52):
and You're like, oh no, this woman is like indoctrinating
her young daughter into like toxic gun culture already. But
then also you think about, like, well, what is their
background in personal history, and like what motivations would that
mother have for her daughter to want to be able
to defend herself. Like It's which I feel like also
connects directly to Alice's character, who is like there's so

(56:19):
much time put into like the various ways in which
Alice has been traumatized to the point where it's like
I felt I felt a lot of Gillian Flynn coming
through with that Alice character, where and this isn't even
really a criticism, but just like this is a subject
matter that Gillian Flynn seems to take on frequently in
her work, which is like mother daughter trauma and like

(56:44):
toxic cycles between mothers and daughters specifically, which I think
is kind of an under explored topic in media in general,
where it's like we make the joke on this show
that like every movie is about fathers and sons. But
with Alice, it's like the the kind of like core
of her character is that she was abused and manipulated

(57:08):
by her mother and also by her husband, and like
has this gigantic kind of crisis of self esteem and
confidence in sense of self because she has been so
controlled for her entire life in a way that is
like I mean, it's it's almost like so much that

(57:29):
I'm like, do we have enough time in this movie
to really address all of this? Like that scene with
her mother was fucking brutal, but yeah, I mean it's
so this is like kind of where in this movie,
I I get to another point where it's like this
was going somewhere, but it felt like there wasn't enough
time or whatever it was to like follow through on

(57:51):
the seriousness of what was set up where I guess
like it's it almost felt like, I don't know, like
almost like a little bit girl power feminism for Alice
by the end to be like I'm my own woman
now and I'm at school and everything is great, and
it just I mean, it's very movie I guess because

(58:12):
if they set her up with severe trauma and then
they're like and then she went to college and made
one friend and you're like, well that okay, like it
it feels a little undercooked to me. But I don't know,
I I appreciate again, like you're saying, Caitlin, like the
fact that this was even tackled in the highest genre
is huge. Yeah, I think a lot of the effective commentary.

(58:37):
I mean I actually kind of appreciated that it it
didn't dwell on the whole, like, well where women but
we can still do this. There's only one There's a
very trailer scene where Viola Davis is like, we have
the balls. They don't think we have the balls to
do this. You're like, alright, alright, we get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(59:00):
She says like we have to move and think like
a team of men. The best thing we have going
for us is being what we are, implied women, because
no one thinks we have the balls to pull this off,
which I think is like an appropriate amount of discussion
about that. If it had gone much more beyond that,
I would have, um, like, that would be a little

(59:20):
eye rolly to me. It's like, yeah, we know, that
would almost feel it was like a movie directed at
men to like remind men, yes, women are capable, Yes
we can do ship like look at her with a
gun and kicking like, But because the movie doesn't dwell
on that, it just to me made it more accessible

(59:41):
for me at least, right you know, I was like, okay, this,
you're you're speaking my language. Um. And then I wanted
to share a quote from Viola Davis from that same interview.
I think that you were referencing Jamie from The New
York Times right by Reggie Gogo, who says Viola Davis
says about the movie quote, this movie is a realistic

(01:00:03):
journey into women gaining ownership of their of their lives,
and not at the expense of who they are. The
feminine energy and the vulnerability are still there, but I
think it's a fantasy and every woman to do something
bold and brash and not nice, to bust out of
themselves and this and social norms to get at some
level of authenticity. I think that's what attracts people. I know,

(01:00:25):
that's what attracts me. End quote. I know, ah, and
that is largely what attracts me to this movie as well,
like what compels me about it. Um. Yeah. And then
in addition to that kind of like that gender commentary, UM,

(01:00:45):
I think there's also effective class commentary and race commentary
embodied a lot in the particularly like the race conversation
in like the Jack Mulligan versus them All Manning, And
that was another thing also. I also I also kind
of thought about kind of when you're looking at the race,

(01:01:07):
if you look at kind of conversation between Jack and
his dad, he's he's he comes off as the more moral,
better human kind of um, the more moral between the two,
and then you kind of opposed with him and jam
All and then he's kind of and and then he's
the kind of the last moral, the more evil, I guess,
I guess. But but also um, but also neither of
them are also like morally right, and so I love

(01:01:29):
that the phone both both comments. I love that it
comes on a couple of things. One kind of um
kind of because then then it also gives Jack kind
of credit, I guess, for being like a kind of
basic um we're not going for like basic um basic
beauty as a white man as opposed to kind of
his more cotween his father, but within they're both kind

(01:01:50):
of more wrally wrong totally I guess if that makes sense. Yeah,
I thought that that, uh, one of the things that
that storyline got too. Pretty effectively, it's like some I mean,
it's not like dwelled on in any significant way, but
like almost generational commentary where I feel like it's pretty
clearly telegraphed that the Mulligan's the father and the son.

(01:02:13):
No one gives a ship about the people in the
eighteenth district there. They don't care. They're more obsessed with
keeping power than anything else, Like they don't give a fuck,
But the ways that they don't give a funk are
very indicative of their generation. Where Robert Duval's character is
just openly racist, like completely mask off, horrifying to watch

(01:02:37):
and listen to, and then Colin Ferrell's character is almost
like this more gen x iteration of that same racism
and classism and dismissal of his constituents, but he's like
more polite about it, and he doesn't say the quiet
part loud, like it's it's very I don't know, like

(01:02:58):
there were moments in that story and that we're really
difficult to watch, but in a way that it's like
they were being pretty effective in the way that it's like,
well and the and the bleakest part of it is
by the end whatever I mean, Jack Mulligan wins on
the sympathy vote because Robert daval was murdered, and so

(01:03:19):
if you look at it one way, it's like we
know that Jack Mulligan doesn't actually want this job, he
doesn't care, he feels so bad for himself and he
feels cursed by having to do this job. But ultimately
it's the eighteenth district who loses because they're subjected to
yet another term of uh nepotism, white guy who doesn't

(01:03:41):
give a ship and is just completely phoning it in,
And it's like that political cycle is I don't I mean,
it's it's such a real thing and very I don't know,
like I feel like there are some ways where like
that area of the story was so effectively done, and
then it was like, but I wish that I don't know.

(01:04:03):
I was trying to think of was like I wish
that like one of the widows worked in politics more meaningfully,
or there was more connection between those two storylines that
like fused them together, because at different times it felt
like it was separate. That was what I remember kind
of in that scene between Jack and Ronica, what would
you kind of go then? And I kind of pretend

(01:04:24):
that it's kind of something to do with school digit
and actually kind of asking for help. I wish I
said her job had said some how been ebolding, maybe
working with him in some way, because if you can
make her the main character half a direct have that
been the direct link? I feel like that would have
been more effective. Yeah, I because Veronica teachers, like a

(01:04:45):
former member of the teachers union. Yeah, some something along
those lines, which we only learn about through dialogue, and
I'm like, oh, that would have been interesting to explore more.
Sometimes I'm just like, maybe there's movie would have worked
better if it was also just a readapted TV series

(01:05:05):
and that way we would like get more of us,
more time to explore. Yeah. Yeah, but remember I remember
the first time I was I remember thinking I was like,
this would be a really good, like two part pilot
for this would work really well. Yeah, as as a pilot, Yeah,
because I guess it's like our main criticisms are like

(01:05:26):
things that we wish we had more time to explore,
but they just made the cuts they made. Yeah. Another
one of another example of that is the kind of
I wouldn't even call it a storyline because it's so fleeting,
but the detail you learn about Veronica and Harry's son, Marcus,

(01:05:47):
who was shot and killed by cops because they racially
profiled him, and that is then kind of followed up
on because there's this kind of ongoing in flashbacks between
Veronica and Harry where she says, he you know, He's like,
don't make me feel like my only regret is having

(01:06:08):
a child with you, and she responds with, you know,
maybe you should have had a child with someone else,
because then he would still be alive, which when we
get the flashback of his murder, we realized, oh, he
was killed because of the color of his skin, and
had he been a white man, that wouldn't have happened.
And so like Veronica is harboring, seems to be harboring

(01:06:32):
this guilt revolving around that and then later when Harry
shows up at the very end, she calls him out.
She's like, you're such a coward, like you've been having
this affair and now you have this son, your new
your new son, your new white happy family. And it's
this like undercurrent in the movie. But I feel like
that could have been something that was explored further, and

(01:06:55):
I would have liked to have just like kind of
learned more about that and how that's affecting Aronica. I agree,
and I sh'll think about I thought it was because
I feel like that pop Win comes with a lot
of his history kind of with with feminity and and
and the kind of the digitalvantages and the way the
black women, black women aren't offered that kind of feminity,

(01:07:16):
and the way that what women are kind of are
the ideal of femininity, and the way that the world
that we're often not not teenage women or um or
not often not offered as a kind of advantage or
safety um the other one we get because of feminity
um and and and and then and and then and
then and then and then having it in your head
and and and and and then seeing your husband then

(01:07:37):
move on and then saying yours move on with the women,
which is if you are being bad enough, but but
but then to see him, you know, choose choose that
over you and and and to have and really kind
of makes the deal even worse. I feel like that
was a really interesting pot point. It could have been
expanded a lot more than it was, because there's because

(01:07:57):
there's so much history with that. Absolutely, Yeah, I was
sort of wondering what the script and the story gained
by withholding that information for so long, because it seemed like,
like you're saying, Michael Michel, like there there is so
much historically and story wise to explore there, But by
the time you learn what their history is and who

(01:08:22):
their son was and what actually happened, there's almost no
run time left to do anything but kill Liam Neeson,
which is like I'm I feel great about like great
kill Liam Neeson all day long. But but yeah, it
felt like, yeah, that the movie didn't give enough time
to effectively explore what you were describing. And it feels

(01:08:47):
like that character like Veronica is so well set up
that too, withhold that information for so long, I feel
like it almost does a disservice to her character. And
then um, kind of back to your point, mean about
like kind of the generational differences between Jack Mulligan and
his father. I think another example of that is that

(01:09:09):
programmed that initiative that Jack Mulligan started, the m WOW,
the Minority Women Owned Work initiative, where it seems, based
on what you know about him, it's obviously an extremely
performative thing. That also he is he's basically exploiting the

(01:09:31):
people of this district because you find out that they
loaned money to these black women to like start their
own businesses. But then these women are now like beholden
to these loans that they're clearly struggling to pay back.
Because that's something that we see in the hair salon
that Bell works in, because her her boss, the owner

(01:09:55):
of the salon, is having confrontations in and our humans
with this man who we understand is coming to collect
on this debt. And so basically it's like this, you know,
this Jack Mulligan guy being like, look at me, Look
what I'm doing. I'm empowering these women of color to

(01:10:15):
be business owners, and that's generating revenue, and that revenue
is going back into the neighborhood. But then when you
actually learn about the real circumstances of that initiative where
it's all about you know, this performative gesture, this exploitation
that he's making money off of two. So yeah, I
thought that was all an effective examination of that just

(01:10:39):
type of very corrupt, performative political whatever dealings that might
seem like they're helping marginalized communities but is actually exploitative.
I thought that was effective. Yeah, and I liked that. Again,
it's just like, yeah, the more we talk about this,

(01:11:00):
it's like, oh, there's so much like really timely and
like well set up premises here that we just don't
have enough time to explore where it's like not even
as much a criticism of the movie of like, I
think the more we talk about it, the more I
think you're right, Michael Michelburg. It's like this should be
just like a limited series where we have the real
estate to like like really examine this. I would have

(01:11:23):
loved it, Yeah, it would, And I like, I mean
it's they I feel like the screenwriters are doing their
best there where it's like you do see like there's
that one reporter who I appreciate, see like him just
I don't know, I've seen stuff like this happen in
real time where it's like a city councilor is spewing
campaign point bullshit. Everyone knows he's full of ship, but

(01:11:45):
there's only like one reporter who's like, wait, what uh
just watching the city councilor ignore them and be like, oh,
this is so annoying when people acknowledge that I'm a liar,
like that whole thing, it's like it's so uh yeah, yeah,
I don't know, it's it's good. And then but then

(01:12:06):
it's also like we don't get quite enough of it
because I like that. I mean that was another great
scene for Cynthia Arrivo's character where she's talking with um,
I need to remember the name of the character who
owns the hair salon, and and she's pushing back and
being like, well that doesn't sound right, Like this isn't

(01:12:28):
you know He's he's basically profiting off of pretending to
help us when he's not helping us, he's helping himself.
And the owner of the salon kind of replies with like, yeah,
I know, but what else am I supposed to do?
Like what other options are available to me? Which is
a huge conversation that again, it's like it's so wild

(01:12:52):
in a positive way that this conversation is being had
in a heist movie. And I also wish that there
was more time to explore it, and also, you know,
just get to know Cynthia Arriva's character better in general totally.
I mean the catharsis of that salon owner struggling and
acknowledging like, well, I couldn't have gone a bank, wouldn't

(01:13:14):
have given me the loan to start my own business,
you know, and then to have money paid back to
her because Belle takes a part of her split from
the heist and gives it to the salon owner. So
like just the catharsis of having that debt paid back
to her, or like getting that money to start a

(01:13:34):
business without you know, having these loan sharks basically like
breathing down her neck, you know, putting her in a
position of being more financially secure, and that money coming
from the very man who exploited her to begin with,
is very cathartic. Yeah, Um, does anyone have any other

(01:13:58):
thoughts about the phil Um? What were you always thoughts
kind of about his kind of relations relationship kind of
just that's working and all of that. Oh, that's a
that's an excellent question. I would be curious. I almost
want I wasn't able to find I was because so

(01:14:19):
this I don't think came up a lot in the summary,
but um for listener reference if you have not seen
the movie yet, Alice is pressured by her mother to
become a sugar baby in order to financially sustain herself
and also presumably her mother to an extent after her
husband dies in the heist, and so for much of

(01:14:44):
the movie we see Alice is in a transactional sugar
baby relationship with this business guy. So I was I
was hoping to be able. I was looking for a
sex worker perspective on this storyline, and I wasn't able
to find one. So if I mean, if we do

(01:15:06):
have any listeners who have insights into that, we would
love we were totally open to hearing it, and I wasn't.
I don't know. I mean, my instinct there was that
it was well intentioned but possibly a little undercooked. I
felt like there there was kind of an element in
at least with that guy, Dave David vague rich guy,

(01:15:27):
where he was pretty emotionally volatile towards Alice, where there
were moments where he was very affectionate towards her and
she seemed to think that there might be a real
relationship developing, and then he would turn on her and
be like, this is a transaction for me and grows
more and more volatile as the story goes on, and

(01:15:48):
it feels like, I don't know, I would be curious
to know how much when Steve McQueen and Gillian flam
were collaborating on this, how much they spoke to sex
workers versus used the idea of sugar baby to advance
the character and get her to where they wanted her
to be. Because I I sort of felt like, and
again it's like I don't have experience in this realm,

(01:16:11):
but it almost it did feel to me a little
bit like they were commenting more on the idea of
a sugar baby as a means to an end, versus
any actual insight into sex work. It felt it felt
kind of dragmental to me. Um kind of both both
both to the filmmakers and kind of and also and
also all the kid goes around her, It just kind

(01:16:32):
of felt like everyone was kind of um. It just
kept being a plot point of basically her for either
not having a real job or not really being intelligent
because as a reflector of being a sugar baby. And
I was like, this bear is a little off base here. Yeah,
I have two thoughts about this. Number one is ready um.

(01:16:57):
Number one is I was trying to figure out if
there was a distinction between the movie whether or not
it was passing judgment about this versus other characters in
the narrative passing judgment, because I mean, Veronica certainly is
passing judgment as a character, definitely. Yeah, And I think

(01:17:19):
maybe even correct me if I'm wrong, But I I
feel like Michelle Rodriguez's character might also make some comment.
Maybe it's just like about something she's wearing. I think
that there's comments. It's not just I mean, but with like, yeah,
with Veronica, I mean it's like a physical altercation. But yeah,
I think that everyone is a little bit judge e
about Alice's job. Right, So that's happening without question as

(01:17:44):
far as the movie and the crafters of this story
passing judgment, I feel like that was happening to a
definitely lesser extent than some of the other characters passing judgment.
But I feel like it would have been more effective
if the movie is actually coming at it completely objectively.
I think it would have been helpful to have a

(01:18:05):
different character, maybe Michelle Rodriguez's character, to say, like, do
whatever you want, it's your life, your choice. Yeah, good point. Yeah, Yeah,
I don't know. And it also sort of sets up
Elizabeth Debicky as an actor to be the most heavily

(01:18:25):
sexualized character in the movie, where I mean, she is
the only white woman of the widows, right, and and
she's also the only woman that has a like long
lingering sex scene and these scenes of her and all
these gowns, and it just I don't know. I it

(01:18:49):
wasn't my biggest issue with the movie, but it also
just there were some lingering like why was this? And
I am curious of like how much of that storyline
was carried on from the mini series or if this
was completely an invention of these two writers. I don't
really know. Yeah, and we'll never know because we simply

(01:19:10):
won't and maybe even can't. Where do you find British
from the eighties? I tried, I really did try, and
I couldn't find it. Yeah, but yeah, I'm a little
wary of that. But my second thought about this is
that it is a reminder to me that all of

(01:19:30):
the men in the story are framed as being obstacles
and or antagonistic forces for the widows, which I think
is an interesting flip considering that in your average heist movie,
which is again a bunch of men doing heists for reasons, um,

(01:19:55):
women are often framed as obstacles. Like just again, to
refer back to Oceans eleven, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitts all
like she's a distraction, Danny Ocean stopped being distracted, blah
blah blah. I still can't get over the fact that
his name is Danny Ocean. Act movie so many times,
and I'm like, what the fuck his name is Danny Ocean.

(01:20:18):
I can't think of it's ludicrous, But um, yeah, so
I think it was. I mean, I don't hate the
choice that I mean. And again I'm not saying like
all men hashtag, not all men are bad and obstacles,
but um, between, like this David guy who Alice gets

(01:20:41):
involved with, he, like you said, Jamie gets increasingly like
more and more volatile. Her deceased husband was physically abusive.
Linda's husband was gambling away all of her money that
she earned from running this gown store boutique, yah, causing
her to lose her business. Obviously, we talked about how

(01:21:05):
Veronica's husband, Harry was, you know, cheating on her. He's lying,
he's faking his death, he tries to kill her, etcetera.
Name a thing he didn't do wrong. He really did
every single thing. He fucked up real bad um. The
men in the Manning family, the men and the Mulligan family,

(01:21:25):
they are all posed as being antagonistic forces to the women.
I would say the only exception is Bash the driver,
like he's he seems okay, good friend as far as
I can tell, and then he isn't okay because you know,
he's just yeah that that's a really good point that

(01:21:49):
I don't know, I have such complicated feelings about it's
not even specific to this movie, but movies that it's
so bizarre because it's just like whatever, the past five
to seven years feel like it's been forever. It feels
like such a long time. And so this movie is
less than three years old, but there are already elements
of it that not even in a way that I'm

(01:22:10):
being super critical of but that feel a little bit dated,
of like the feeling and the sort of like movie
energy that was coming to screens in the year after
the Me Too movements started going, versus being three years
out and knowing kind of a little more about how
that actually bore out, and like the successes and failures

(01:22:33):
that that movement has had. It like, watching this movie
now is like and watching the trailer, especially Michael Mitchell.
You mentioned the trailer, and I remember being so fucking
hyped on the trailer. I love. It's like the most
me too trailer ever where it's like, we're going to
do it now, and like it's very cathartic and exciting

(01:22:53):
and and then but but then there's also like I
can't quite describe what the feeling is, but there's it
makes me like a little bit sad and discouraged to
watch that trailers out because it felt like there was
all this positive energy, and like with so many movements,
you're like, oh, yeah, we didn't solve that in a year.

(01:23:17):
What were we thinking? Like it was? I don't it's
hard to just I don't. I don't really know exactly
what I'm getting at here, but I guess just the
idea of like, there have been so many reversals of
mail driven plots, which this movie is in many ways,
And I think that the ways that it does it

(01:23:37):
and the subject matter it chooses to tackle is really smart.
It's well written, it's certainly well acted, like it's really cool.
And then there's also I don't know, I mean, there's
certainly room for both of these sorts of movies, But
then there's sometimes where it's like, is the only option
to just flip it? Because I don't know in this

(01:24:00):
ice piece that Again, I want to shout out the
writer Amior Mercer. She was pointing out, like, with kind
of the exception of set it off, most women driven
heist movies are reversals of mail plots, and she pointed out,
and I've only seen Oceans eight once and I didn't
really like it very much, but how the women in

(01:24:23):
Oceans eight are very defined in relation to characters who
existed in Danny Ocean's life and like age my little
sister and this is bu and it's all they exist
in relation to men. And that is true of the way.

(01:24:43):
I mean, that's like widows, like the title implies proximity
to men, which is a very true you know that
it's like a reality that exists. And then I also
I'm just I don't know, I want us to get
to a point where it doesn't need to be a
flip of a movie we've seen before, like like it
should just be a story on its own. It also

(01:25:05):
kind of makes you think about that. There was this
video I've watched the other day. I don't know, I
think it might have been the take, but they're talking
about how how often things in the female gage or
just kind of flipping I just kind of flipping the
mail gage but updractifying men. And so how do we
get past just the flipping had what is film beyond that?
And how do we get to a space of just

(01:25:29):
a completely new space of just creating content that isn't
that's beyond the flap of flipping? And how do we
create it? And and what is that content? Yeah? Yeah,
that's so well put. Yeah, where it's just like, at
what point with like flipping that gaze is like it was,
I don't know, I like almost go back to my

(01:25:49):
twenty eight teen SEWT were like all I wanted to
see was like in movies women doing two oppressors? What
oppressors had done to them, and like that was really
cathartic and exciting and like I felt like a release
that was like needed. But at some point it's like,

(01:26:09):
but that can't be the end game. You can't just
flip patriarchy. That's ridiculous. Like there's like I don't know,
I just like I don't know. I've well, I've been
doing my feelings this summer. Well that we talked about
this a lot, where I mean, progress is a process, right,

(01:26:34):
and that where's the merch where's the T shirt? But
it means that there are stepping stones, and we've covered
a lot of movies on the show that we have
commented that this feels like a stepping stone movie. This
is like a step in the right direction. It's not perfect,
it's not nearly as like amazingly intersectionally feminist as we

(01:26:55):
are hoping it is, but it was very progressive for
the time that movie came out, or you know, whatever
the case. So, yeah, I think it's I don't think
it's the end game. Is just like a gender flip,
but it is like one of the steps in the

(01:27:17):
process or like just like process. Yeah, where it's like
Widows does feel very much like how eighteen felt in
a lot of ways words, which is wild to say
because it's so recent, but it's like it is capturing
so many ideas and catharsis and and just like beginning

(01:27:38):
to discuss serious societal issues in a genre where you
wouldn't normally even think about seeing that. Yeah, I don't know.
I think I think that year specifically. I think I
think we're like halfway through tough presidency and everyone kind
of wanted and it was it was like it was
like it was the year of of of representation mattering,

(01:28:01):
and everyone was so want to grab Ronnie to grab
and feel kind of aspirational and it definitely feels staved
in that. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's so like even just yeah,
like context historically was like, oh this this movie makes
exact sense for the moment that it came out in

(01:28:22):
and it's it is it's like so well done. I mean,
and Steve McQueen and Gillian Flynn, like that's such a
cool collaboration to have even happened, Like it's awesome. I
think that Gillian Flynn, if I'm not mistaken, I believe
that she is from Chicago, which is I think why
the setting was shifted there. Um, I'm pretty yes, Okay,

(01:28:46):
so yeah, she is. She has lived in Chicago for
many years, so I think that that was why between
her and Steve McQueen that it was like a British
mini series that Steve McQueen loved, and then they said
it where Gillian Flynn lived, and like it just it's cool.
It's a really cool collaboration, really totally. But what other
questions was also kind of because I don't think we

(01:29:07):
talked about it. What was um was I guess Day's
his too, his too kind of the the other kill
the other killing scenes, the one with Bash kind of
as wanting football, and then also and and and then
also the freestyle raps he and I was wondering, kind of,
what y'all what about those? I mean, just from a

(01:29:29):
cinematic point of view, I'm always so shocked that it
happens because we don't know who those characters are when
they're first introduced, because we hadn't seen them before. We
don't really understand the context that they like exist in
the story or what their role is. And it's not

(01:29:50):
until part way into the conversation that jam is having
I think with other characters. Is it that they are
the ones who kind of let the robbers get away
with the money, or they were supposed to be like
keeping an eye on the money and then they sucked
up and that's why they were able to steal it.

(01:30:11):
I think it was something along those lines, if I'm
not mistaken. Um, yeah, that was my understanding of it.
So they had like messed up and then they get
punished for it by being shot and really brutal, especially
the first shooting, right, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I
was curious when everyone thought about that. I feel like

(01:30:35):
those kinds of scenes are like you're saying that, they're
always shocking to me because it's just like it's not
a genre that I've ever been extremely invested in, and
it does like these godfathery scenes where it's just like
very dramatic executions has never really been for me, but

(01:30:55):
I do. I yeah, I feel like the fact that
these executions are done by a character who the movie
isn't really letting us get to know makes watching it
feel worse or like more exploitative, where it does sort
of just feel like a torture porn situation because I

(01:31:16):
feel like Daniel Clia, like you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle,
like Daniel Clia's performance is doing the heavy lifting there
where like you can tell like he's trying my And
then I watched an interview with him to sort of
make sure that this was what he would he like
he was trying to performance always come from a place
of like this is how he shows love and loyalty

(01:31:39):
to his brother is by doing this, which is like, wow,
Daniel Clia is so smart like that totally like hearing
that was like that totally comes through, But that isn't
really in the writing like he does that, he brings that,
but and it does feel it feels kind of grow

(01:32:00):
especially concerning the conversation we had earlier, where the way
that these scenes are shot is very telling of it.
Really it seems to really the camera work kind of
dwells more on the brutal murder of a disabled man.
We see the two black men in this first scene

(01:32:21):
to be executed very much on screen, like there's nothing
held back in that. And then with white characters that
we know, all of a sudden, the cameras a little shyer,
and and and the fact that we don't really get
the information we need with gamalogy attempt seems to make

(01:32:41):
it harder. I don't know, what did you think, Michael Mitchelle,
even I was telling me, I was even thinking a
lot about what I think. I also love. I do think.
I think the sound of sound is also really interesting,
and a lot of even certain scenes, um, the certain
depths seem moore see loud, rent and kind of more

(01:33:02):
goals when it comes to the other stable characters, for
the black characters, and and then and and and then
and then and then music kind of swelling kind of
you know, in a softer way when it came to
like cares of something. I also noticed, um so and
so I would also and so I feel like both
the camera work and then the town designed together kind
of um there, they're as already there West. But that

(01:33:24):
was probably I do think that was a high point
for me. Didn't know I think that that this undersigned
what was really was the highpoint by But I do
think there were certain spots where I was like, this
could have been handled a little better. Yeah, yeah, because
it's like, I mean, best case scenario, those scenes could
have I mean just been like holy sh it mob scenes,

(01:33:46):
which I think is like what they were trying to be,
but they were like, yeah, the details in the cinematography
and like the character development or like lack thereof, I
guess made it a little tougher. I don't know. I
also don't unders and mob movies, so I could be
so very wrong either way. It's uh, that scene is

(01:34:08):
always extremely jarring for me. But um, yeah, because that's
like the first because you get the you get the
big explosion pretty early on with the van explodes, but
that's the first moment of like really brutal, like happening
right in your face violence, graphic violence kind of things.

(01:34:29):
So yeah, it's it's always like, oh god, Daniel Khaluja,
oh my stars, and so my stars, why are you
so mean? But does anyone have any other thoughts about
the movie? I also, Sally, I really want to knowledge

(01:34:49):
the true star of this film, this Olivia. I just
feel like a true star. She you know, you know,
she helped find you know, help find Harry. Really Veronica's
motivation just a star, love her, adorable an icon. Absolutely.
Um does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Yes, yes, yes, yes,

(01:35:16):
here's my favorite pass. Well, well it's not. We'll we'll
discuss how it's not quite a pass. But Alice said,
why are you being such a bitch. You're being a sword. Veronica,
don't say that word to me, Alice, it's appropriate, you're
being a sword. And then Veronica is like, you're just

(01:35:37):
a stupid girl with nothing in your head. And then
they slap each other and they sure do. Yeah, we
love Melo drama. But I would argue that that conversation
does not pass because this is Veronica slut shaming Alice
for having sex with a guy only one month after
her husband died, so the context is still all about

(01:36:00):
her husband. This new guy. Yes, but it is an
interaction between women. There's no denying that. But no, it does.
It does pass a lot. The widows are planning the
heist together, talking a lot of like logistics stuff, things
that don't have anything to do with men. Shall we

(01:36:22):
get to our ratings on the nipple scale? Let's do it.
Our nipple scale is zero to five nipples, based on
how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens. I
would give this I think four nipples. It's gonna get
some points docked simply because of a lot of what

(01:36:45):
we talked about in terms of things that the movie
starts to examine or starts to explore that it doesn't
there's not quite enough time to fully explore it, and
then I feel like we're kind of like robbed of opportunity,
used for more interesting commentary or yeah, just a closer
examination of what I think this movie is trying to do. Again,

(01:37:10):
it probably should have just been readapted, revitalized as another series.
It's not that it doesn't work as a movie, but
I think it doesn't work quite as well, just because
there's it feels like there's so much crammed into this
already pretty long movie. It's over two hours long. But um, yeah,
there's just there's different bits of like characterization and commentary

(01:37:34):
that I feel could have been handled more effectively had
we been given more time with it, especially the relationships
between the widows and how those grow and develop over
the course of the story, especially with a character like
Bell who gets introduced so late into the game and

(01:37:57):
we don't really learn anything about her. So yeah, that's uh,
that's my main grape with the movie. So four nipples,
and I'll give one to each of the widows. Wow,
I'll meet you there. I'll meet you there like three

(01:38:18):
point seven five or four. This movie is really fun
to watch, and it also is it's a it's a
heavy romp, it's a tone poem, and yet it's a
it's interesting. I would call it hetty and heavy. Yes,
every h e a blank y uh, substitute any consonant.

(01:38:39):
It's that. But yeah, I I really like this update
on the format. I love a Steve McQueen Gillian Flynn
collaboration that was really cool. I that the performances in
this movie are like incorrect, like the cast, Like just

(01:39:00):
watched a couple of round tables with the cast and
you're like, hold on, this cast is ridiculous. Like it's
so I like, I feel like we didn't get to
talk about Brian Tyree Henry very much, and I just
like he's incredible. He's so good. I know he's not
one of the widows and all the widows are incredible,
but I was like, Brian Tyree Henry doesn't need an

(01:39:21):
oscar like yesterday anyway, he had an incredible year right
yere He's yeah, yeah, he's like he had like a
wild eighteen. He was in like everything that year because
he was also he's he's in Um was into this
Better Verse that year because he voices Miles, his dad
in that movie. Yes, yes, he was Real Street that

(01:39:42):
year as well. Yeah, he's Oh my god, I really
like him. What else was he in that year? He
was in? Oh, I have no idea what that movie
he is. He was in a movie called Hotel Artemis.
Oh I remember that coming out? Yeah, well he was
in it. Whatever. Anyway, it's good for so. Yes, I like,

(01:40:02):
I totally agree with what you were just saying, Caitlin,
and what you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle. Where this
movie you could argue, maybe like bites off a little
more than it can chew with the sheer number of
issues it's trying to address where I don't know. I mean, ultimately,
I'm glad that it tries it. We don't quite have
the run time to meet every single arc, but I

(01:40:25):
mean the fact that it's a heist movie that addresses
racial injustice and class injustice and misogyny. It tackles a
hell of a lot in two hours, and it all
makes sense in the story and it's just it it
comes together. It's it's really good. Um, most of the

(01:40:46):
issues I have with this movie is just stories that
it doesn't quite have the time to follow through on.
It's not really what they do that I have an
issue with. That's what they didn't have time to do.
I wish. I mean, we should have known more about
the Mannings, We should have known more about Michelle read
Egas and Cynthia Rivo, et cetera. Yeah, so yeah, I'll
let's go for it. And I will also give a

(01:41:07):
nipple a piece to the widows. Nice Michael, Michelle, what
about you? I am also going to give it for um,
you know, kind of like you all said everything, everything
that they attempted. I really I really appreciate and enjoyed it,
and pretty I loved it as a work. It's I'm
pretty be honest. I think it was my favorite of

(01:41:29):
that year and I think also my personal favorite hist movie. Um.
I just I think it's it's just it's it's really grounded.
I think I think all the women feel like real
women and they don't feel like our types of women
for the sake of like woman hasn't been a movie,
which is nice. Um totally, and I love I love
the all four of them are soul specific in each

(01:41:52):
of their bast wood and and and that they're all
dealing with with with with very specific marital problems. Um,
you know, my graphs are the same that you all have.
You know that I wish that the great thing that
they that they had given us kind of head head
any more time to be able to kind of kind
of blosom kind of um with the run time. But
I'm so glad that it's a second tone, you know,

(01:42:14):
and then and then and then it exists, and um,
and I'm also really pissed that it didn't get more
more than Awards season. Um, yes, absolutely, because I got
completely snubbed by the Golden Globes and the Academy, right,
is that remembering it? Right? Yeah? Completely. I was just
I was like, so, we're just not going to acknowledge
that this magic. It's fine. I'm not better at five

(01:42:39):
okay over it kind of But yeah, So I love
this movie. I wish it could have given us more,
but um, I kind of explored more and kind of
given us more death. But I'm glad to existed. So
I'll give it four stars. Nice, amazing, Well, thank you
so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. This was

(01:43:00):
such a blast. Thank you so much for having me.
I love you. I really appreciate your working. It was
really fun to talk to you all. Likewise, thanks for
bringing us this movie. This was so fun. Where can
we find more of your work? Where can we follow you?
Plug away? Yeah, so I am. You can follow me
on Twitter and Instagram, on on on Twitter, on films

(01:43:22):
and films, fe m M E s N Films, and
then on Twitter, I'm Michael Michelle. So I'm Michael Michelle,
and then with three e's at the end, um, and
then I've worked in teen, Vogue and Vogue and L
and Harvard Bazaar, UM and Nylon, and you can just
I'm Michael Michelle at all of those sites. And I'm

(01:43:43):
just feeling up thing around the internet, you know, and
um in school, uh, trying to get a film degree
and yep, so very relatable stuff. So we're just here
trying to make art, review art. I'm just here on
in this hell. Yes, And you can find us in

(01:44:04):
all the usual places. You can find us on Instagram
and Twitter, at bachtel cast, you can find us on
our Patreon ak Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast,
where you get to bonus episodes a month for simply
five dollars a month. Wow, in addition to our almost
one hundred episode back catalog. Wow. Incredible, brave of us.

(01:44:32):
And you can also grab some merch at our merch store,
t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. There's all
kinds of good ease, so go grab them. I haven't
heard the word goodies used in casual conversation and many moods.
Thank you for that any time. And uh, Jamie, we've

(01:44:54):
successfully pulled off this podcast that we've all done together.
So now come we kill Liam Neeson. So we can
kill Liam Neeson and now we have five million dollars
with Bay

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