April 2, 2024 • 50 mins
In episode 1651, Jack and Miles are joined by affordable housing advocate, Yusuf Dahl, to discuss… Yusuf's Work On Overturning The Thurmond Amendment, Modern Day Redlining and more!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point thirty two,
episode two.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Of their Daily's I Guys Stay production of iHeart Radio.
This is a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April second,
twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Four, the day after April Fool's Day, wherein we all
admit they got our ass. They did get our ass
in some cases.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I went to seven eleven and I demanded they give
me this the hot dog flavor of sparkling water, and they.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Called the cops. Yeah, that video's going viral.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
You really well, Yeah, I probably should have kept my
clothes on, but I was really upset. Yeah, but yeah,
I will say Also, April second is National DIY Day
for all of us that tried to do it ourselves,
National ferret Day, National Peanut butter and Jelly Day. And
also I'm wondering if, because this is the day after
fooling people and being very deceptive, it's also National Reconciliation Day.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah. Man, I've got a lot of apologizing to do.
Oh no, and I've got a lot of forgiving to do.
Exactly know, if you heard our trending episode yesterday, I
wasn't kind about my kids April fools pranks. Yes, I'll
show you the sign myles on me.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Not not nice.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah. So it's written with gusto too. I can tell it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Exclamation point that it was. It was after a kick me,
so they built to it. It wasn't just like you know,
this guy is a piss pig.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Soccer action. Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So we made it through April Fool's Day and to
Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. Peanut butter and jelly yeah,
together and never never heard of such a thing. That's
that's wild. My name is Jack O'Brien aka Kangaroo Jack O'Brien. Yes,
I am also known as Kangaroo Jack o' brian.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Pretty frequently.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I'm compared to that film because I often lure you
in with the promise of a rapping kangaroo and then
it turns out it's just something that I dreamed.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Oh good, that's not in the movie.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Huh it is.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It's a dream sequence.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Oh but it's not a rapping. It's not about a rapping.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
It's not about a rapping kangaroo.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Who's that Anthony Edwards?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Anthony Edwards and the kid who played the chubby kid
from or Stand By Me. Jerry O'Connell.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah yeah, yep. Oh, Michael Shannon is also in it.
Wow yeah early Michael Shannon, Wow wow wow, just bringing.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
The I mean Michael Shannon intensity.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
To cannot reget this rapping kangaroo to be very entertaining, like,
oh god, sorry, Michael Shannon.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That AKA courtesy of the Frequent News Ghost makes sense
that they're good at ak is because they're handle an
ak of this show. Everybody's always saying, hey, have you
checked out the Frequent News Go, I mean the daily
site case.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Anyways, I'm throwing to be joined as always by my
co host, mister Miles.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Grass Miles Gray AKA, ooh wee, I have unbreakable glasses.
Oh oh, I dare you to try.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
I don't care that they just broke anyway, I don't
care about that. Shout out to the Ray J's Unbreakable
Sunglasses video where he's asking Speedy to break his sunglass.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Because they don't break them, and then when he breaks them,
he said, I don't care. It's just the best, just
the best sequence of events. Shout out to Max r
on the Discord for for memorializing that in one of
my favorite Weezer songs.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
So appreciate amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, We're thrilled, Miles to be joined in our third
seats by an affordable housing advocate who is working to
help address modern day redlining by trying to overturn the
Thurmond Amendment. Please welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
Useuf dog. Well, I appreciate that. I wish I had
an aka I could reference, but uh, it's just you.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So it's just sometimes sometimes the name is enough. You know,
it proceeds, you know, Valley of the Doll.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Let's not think about dollar arts by hole to bring
it back to the nineties. Is that the one some day?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Well, think is that? Is that doll parts? I don't
not a lot of Courtney Love Cobaine fans in here.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Huh okay, I was.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I was Cobaine, but I think Hoole went a little
too hard for me. Look, man, I'm still getting over
this idea of peanut, butter and jelly together.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I mean, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh yeah, yep, you will ache like I that's doll parts,
all parts. Thank you nineteen ninety four brain. You're welcome. Uh,
but yusef, where are you coming to us.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
From Allentown, Pennsylvania?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Okay, okay, I mean it's kind of a seminole place
in terms of housing when we're talking about housing, right, I.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Mean, certainly, I think it's the type of city that's
emblematic of a lot of our cities across the country
that really are a tale of two cities. Right. There's
places in this community that are vibrant and thriving, and
there's a lot of other parts in the city that
have quite frankly been left behind.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Right. Yeah, Yeah, oh man, I'm really looking forward to
our discussion because, like as you were saying before we came,
you came on, you know, like when we have these
guests on to talk about a specific subject, I mean,
just the thermin Amendment just opens the door to so
many different conversations, whether it's about our car sol system,
whether it's about housing, how we view housing, and even
(05:42):
how America even does its threat assessments, and they typically
just end up being just overtly racist. And this is
no exception, There's no exception.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What is the attitude in Allentown towards the Billy Joel song.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
One of ambivalents because it's a good song, right, So
it's kind of hard not to like the song. But
I think the city has really done a tremendous job
of reinventing itself, and so you know, there's a sense
that that song really doesn't represent the spirit in the
future of Allentown today. So there's a level of ambivalence.
(06:18):
But it's Jill Billy Joel, so you can't really, you know,
hate it too much.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, I mean he said opens up, well we're living
here in Allentown, and you know, I mean that's those
are the only lyrics that I know. So I was
going to try and say something profound about it, but okay,
I can't remember any of the other parts. Something about
a factory town.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
There, you remember what that song about?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Incisive commentary like, well, we're living here in Allentown is
a lyric in Allentown there? It is all right, great, Well,
we're going to talk about housing in a moment, but
before we get into our expert get area of expertise,
we do like to get to know you a little
bit better by asking what's either something from your search
(07:08):
history that's revealing about who you are or something that
you have recently screencapped short first screen captured that is
revealing about screen shot it even green shot a screen
shot it.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
Yeah, so my last screen shot was actually a list
of Republicans on the Financial Services Committee, so directly related
to this work on the the Therm and Amendment. As
I'm sure we're going to get into this is this
is going to be a big month because we have
legislation that's going to be introduced, but we're trying to
make it bipartisan, and so I'm doing a lot of
(07:42):
work trying to identify folks on the right who might
be interested in this common sense reform to extend opportunity.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
How's it going? How are you feeling about that?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
How you see any any names on there that you're
like they seem to exist in a version of reality.
Speaker 7 (08:00):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (08:01):
I tend to be an optimistic person. I always feel
like the thing with legislation is the key is to
actually get in front of these people. So for me,
the challenges how do you how do you look at
this list and how do you mine your network to
get in the door. Because you believe that if you
can just get in front of these people and explain
(08:23):
what you're trying to do, common sense will prevail and
you'll get through, right.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Is that do you think that's I mean, I guess
there's something with housing. How do you how do you
sort of tailor this argument to appeal to someone like
Ron Johnson who has dealt in all kinds of really
backwards thinking out loud when it comes to things like
the carcial system or race and things like that. Do
you have to is he actually be like, oh, that's
messed up, like people who just had a drug charge
(08:51):
can't get in the housing? Like yeah, I want to
do that? Or is it? Or like how do you
thread that needle? Because from my perspective, like what do
you tell Ron Johnson to try and get him to
see the light in terms of something like this is
common sense reform, like that there's no net negative here.
This is like about just like making things a little
bit more equitable. And they'll be like, what is that woke?
(09:11):
But yeah, I'm curious what sort of what's the what's
the dance with something like that?
Speaker 6 (09:16):
Well, so I think first of all, you always have
to contextualize this in the framework of opportunity, right, because
in theory, everybody wants to extend opportunity to people in
this country in theory, and so it was really about legislation,
like the Thermin Amendment denies people have been justice impacted
(09:37):
the ability to be judged based on market measures and
assessments of risk. Right. So, the market has a way
of predicting or suggesting how reliable you're going to be
as a creditor. Right So it's your credit score, it's
it's your income history. There's a lot of different measures
(09:58):
that objectively, the market is signs to you to suggest
your risk profile. The Thermin Amendment nullifies all of that.
And so the case that I made was, Hey, give
these folks access to the free market and the free
market mechanisms of risk like everyone else. And you know,
and I made the analogy that I can literally go
(10:20):
to a bank right now and borrow a million dollars.
I can do that, but I could not secure a
townhome apartment because of my twenty five year old drug
distribution conviction. That just didn't seem to make a lot
of sense. Wow, oh, now does that translate to actual support?
I mean that's the right, right, I mean, anyone anyone
(10:42):
can sit across from you and say, yeah, that doesn't
make sense. But what you really need are folks who
are going to put some capital on the table and
help you affect this change.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, abstraction is the root of the problems that are
happening where it's like easier to just make somebody a concept,
you know that's like on your screen or like a
you know, a number on a spreadsheet. And when you
actually get in a room with a person and they
have to deal with the fact that you know, you
are a human being, it at least for that time
(11:15):
can make a big change. But then after the fact,
as a matter of like getting them not to go
back to the comfortable thing of you know, a system
that seems to lend itself to just abstracting people and
treating people as like values on a spreadsheet. So yeah,
doing truly the difficult important work. What is something that
(11:38):
you think is underrated?
Speaker 6 (11:40):
I would say, and primarily because I'm a father of
a fifteen year old, and I would say youth sports.
So she plays a lot of sports, takes up a
ton of my time, but it really just gives her
a great outlet to develop confidence, learn the priorities of discipline.
(12:00):
So I meet young people all the time who aren't
in organized sports for a variety of reasons, and I
just think we should do more of that. Like when
I was a kid, I mean, even though I wasn't
in organized sports leagues, like we would always just go
to the park and play pickup basketball or something like this.
And now, I mean, God, if I didn't force her
(12:21):
to play sports, she would be on her phone on
TikTok or something literally ungodly hours a day. So I'm
a big believer in youth sports.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, Like how does cause I have very early experiences
with youth sports and it's hard to like maintain sanity
and maintain your distance from it. Like do you find
yourself just swallowing your tongue while you're at I think
your daughter plays tennis.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Tennis and basketball, and I would say, your kids are
gonna let you get away with voicing your opinion when
they're five and six or seven. Try that at our
high school back you won't be back there. So I
think you learn just as they get older, what they're
comfortable with. And at the end of the day, if
(13:11):
if they don't want to hear you, you know, yelling
your feedback, you're gonna have to find another way to
give it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
That is so wild because like, I can't remember half
of my teammates from like some of the organized sports
I played as a kid, but I remember the loudest
parents that were not my friends. I'm like, damn, bro,
mister Borna is going the fuck off again. And you're
like and you're like, you're like, yo, man, it's cool.
Your dad's so intense, and it's just like, no.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Bro, just like.
Speaker 8 (13:37):
Does his look his look that he just gave I
swear I see that every basketball Yeah, your daughter in particular, No, no, No,
I've learned my lesson.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
She will. Yeah, I have to be very deliberate in
what I'm doing. But there are some other parents that, oh, man,
these guys and it's typically the dad. Yeah, they're they're
all in and you're like, whoa, take it down a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, right, How do you deal with the screen side
of it, like the other side? You know, it sounds
like you're thinking of youth sports as like sort of
one weapon on the side of good against you know,
the screens just taking over. Like I heard in talking
to a parent this weekend, they were like, yeah, it
kind of feels messed up that like one of the
(14:24):
things that like you have as a parent is be like,
no iPad. Then if you're not going to do that,
no iPad, then we're gonna like basically we're going to
take your drugs away.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Right right right? You know, yeah right your iPad?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah yeah yeah, But like, how how has that process
been for you as a parent of fifteen year old?
Speaker 6 (14:44):
Yeah, well, as the parent of any fifteen year old
is going to tell you, it has to be something
serious if you're going for the phone, because you know
all hell is going to break out, So it has
to be level ten where it's just like, okay, the phone,
give me the phone, and you're willing to stand on it.
But honestly, I have to be very intentional because otherwise
(15:07):
you're gonna say give me the phone and you're gonna
encounter a headache that you're just like, man, this wasn't
worth it for me, but.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
My phone too.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
Actually exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
What what's something you think is overrated?
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Oh? By far? The Stanley water bottles. That's just ridiculous.
So yeah, my daughter has a couple of them, which
I refuse to buy any of them. But it's sure
it's a I'm sure it's a high quality water bottle. Right,
I'm familiar with the company, but there's a whole bunch
of high quality water bottles that will keep your beverages
(15:48):
cold or keep them warm, and they don't have that
same price point. So I just think those things are
terribly overrated.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, it feels like there were due for the backlash
where some other brand like kind of pops up. We've
talked about what's the od one, the o wala Yeah,
oh walla. Yeah, that one's pretty good, but doesn't seem
like it's quite.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
The straw built in. Yeah, it's just but I mean
it just shows you again like it was all because
of the marketing genius at Stanley, like they pressed it's
just all they just want full court press on influencers.
That's gonna completely inform the market of what's cool. And
when someone's like, yo, I got this limited edition one.
It's the Philippines exclusive color way of a fucking cup,
(16:33):
and people are like, ah, I'll pick five dollars for it.
On the on the secondary market, it's yeah, it becomes
this other thing. But yeah, I mean I feel like,
you know, maybe yeah, there's maybe there's a company that
comes in. It's like we got the two dollars cup, right,
everyone should be buying. But then it's like, but it
is made of lead, So we just be really clear
on that. Yeah, there's like lead in one of the
(16:55):
parts of it and that and I know that that
caused some people, especially in Los Angeles to clutch their
yoga blocks and be like, oh, okay, right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Anymore stupid La and their soft hippie dippy ways. They're
not happy drinking water out of lead cups.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
There's just a part of the cup you don't interact
with the part that has lead in it. Okay, that's
the thing that many of the Stanley the Stanley stands.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Plus it will help you if you're getting dental X rays.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
True, it makes sense, like we needed something that could
appear with you in like a shot, you know, like
when you're like in a you know, shoes were the
thing that was the most kind of captured by the
influencer market for a long time. And then like, but
you can't have your shoes in like a selfie with
(17:45):
you unless you're really flexible. So the Stanley water bottle
like answers that.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
It's it's like a bag or something because you can
have your whole outfit on. Let them know. There's all
my signifiers. And also I got the quencher is the
forty ounce m hmm. Yeah. I think I'm just intimidated
by like things that are that cumbersome too. It's like, bro,
I can't, fuck I can't. I can't walk around with
a gigantic cup all the time, like like in the house,
I have like a normal cup. I can just keep refilling.
(18:11):
But something that big. I remember even when I was
like at the height of like my water drinking, I
like tapped out of like thirty ounces like.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That, and we're glad we got you back from the edge.
Thanks and touch and go there. Yeah, those meetings are helping.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I had to keep going to the bathroom.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
I'm like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I usually that's the sign of a different problem, but
it was, yeah, like, no, you can't stop drinking water.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
So there's a perfect in the thermin event.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, is he beaming up in the bathroom? No, man,
he's drinking forty ounces of liquid at a time. We
told him it said danger to his kidneys, but he
doesn't listen.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We found one doctor quote doctor in quote who says
that he needs forty ounces of water between me.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, is that even possible?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Bro?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
My favorite doctor Bradley from Sublime forty Ounces of Freedom.
That's how I that's how, that's how.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think that's what that song was actually about.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It's Padrinck and forty.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come
back and we will get into it.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
And so we've been talking about the Thurman Amendment, and
so just to confirm off top, the thermon we're talking
about here is not beloved Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. No,
it's not even kill Bill star Uma Thurman. It is,
in fact, a much worse Thurmond Strom. Is that correct,
(19:55):
segregationist Strom. Thurmond is who this amendment is named after.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Indeed, Yeah, there's a really interesting Yeah. He just threw
it out there in the eighties and kind of completely
changed the course of our housing policies, because right when
this was happening, this was about making amendments of the
Fair Housing Act, where it's like, well, maybe we need
to add a new category of protected class disability, and
(20:20):
then he's like, ah, I got one, I got one,
I got one. What if we strip it away from
drug dealers.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
How about that, y'all?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Is strong Therman back at it again. I know I
took a big o in nineteen sixty four by preventing
the Civil Rights Act from happening, but I never let
it go of that anger, and I'm trying to get
it back in today.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
In the eighties.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, I think it was nineteen eighty eight, was it?
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah? It was eighty eight. And what's interesting about it
is I was in contact with his archives at Clemson University,
and so I said, Hey, I'm working on this legislation.
Can you send me anything you have about this particular amendment.
And you would think, you know, there'd be communications or
correspondence with trained associations or advocates or impacted people. Literally,
(21:04):
there was nothing, nothing in the archives except one piece
of paper, and it was his remarks that he delivered
after the passage of the nineteen eighty eight Fairhousing Amendments Act.
And in his written remarks, he anticipated this amendment failing
it literally says, and while my amendment did not pass,
(21:26):
blah blah blah. He actually crossed that out and in
handwritten he hand wrote, I'm glad my amendment passed and
blah blah, blah. So he didn't. I don't even think
he anticipated this passing.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Right, Wow, that is super. I had no idea that
because I know, like, oh wow, we're racist racist in
this country. Damn all right, guys, thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Oh I don't even know. I'm gonna be real, man.
I'm used to going out there saying see that going
this way. Yeah, I used to say something so flagrant
They're like, strong, shut up, and then I'm like, oh okay,
but then they passed. Let me play the clip though,
from just him at the lectern, basically saying like this
(22:12):
is this is this is what I'm proposing, little strong therment.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
One conviction is sufficient, my man. Was simple says that
one conviction is sufficient for landlord to refuse to rent
to a drug dealer. It's that simple always, my colleagues,
to vote for Amendment Faith is to do so makes
the rights of law abiding citizens meaningless. Drug dealers deserve
(22:36):
no federal protection.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And here we are voice brought to you straight from
the eighteen eighties, by the way. Oh yeah, just everything
about his voice and accent. I was like, is that
being played on a phonograph from like a retired Civil
War general. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
The suit he's wearing, if there was a pantone color
for it, it would be Confederate gray. How on point
it is. But you said, can you kind of break
down just sort of the nuance here, like what exactly
I mean, we've sort of touched upon it and some
people may know, but just kind of explain the Thermin
Amendment for people.
Speaker 6 (23:11):
Yeah, So, essentially, the Thermin Amendment means that if you
have a drug distribution conviction, and so that can be
for marijuana, it can be for any illegal substance, you
do not have fair housing protection. So a landlord can
or a seller for that matter, can look at your
application or your offer the purchase and if they find out,
(23:32):
whether through a background check or a Google search, that
you have a drug distribution conviction, again doesn't matter how
long ago it was, doesn't matter extenuating circumstances, they can
immediately summarily deny your application or refuse to sell you
their property, right right.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
And like I know you said you're trying to see
any background. This is just like so strange because this
feels obviously this was the era where you know, the
federal government was finding all kinds of ways to incarce rate,
especially people of color during the crack epidemic and these
other various periods in the eighties, and this feels part
and parcel to it. But I'm like, is there no,
(24:13):
there was no like association of like concern landlords or
something that's like Senator Thurmont, I'm telling you, man, these
they're just setting up and they're serving the community in
a different way, not serving but serving the community. And
I just I can't have that in my in my
apartment building or whatever. It just came out of his
(24:34):
just brain.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Well. So, and this is really the infuriating piece of
this legislation for me is in the late eighties there
was literally a political strategy where Republicans would attach anti
drug legislation to completely you know, non relevant bills in
the hopes of getting Democrats to vote against it, and
(24:59):
then they would use on the campaign trail and so right, yeah,
so this was all just political bullshit, quite frankly, I mean,
And and that's what's caused me to dedicate the last
three years of my life to changing this legislation. Because
the fact that my family was denied access to housing,
(25:21):
that my daughter was denied access to the school, that
she wanted to attend because of bullshit racist political games.
Is just it's it's something that I can't sit by
and just let that impact other families and kids in
this country.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, can you talk about your kind of first hand
run in with the Therma Amendment?
Speaker 6 (25:43):
Yeah, so, you know, I'm sure we'll get into my background.
But I've been a homeowner for many years. But I
relocated to Allentown to lead an education organization, and so
at the time, my daughter was a rising ninth grader.
So we're looking at school districts. I mentioned she's a
tennis player, so we wanted a school that both had
(26:03):
good academics and a strong tennis program. We identified a community,
found a town home, and said, Okay, we'll rent this.
At no point did I even imagine that my application
could be denied, right, just because I mean, I haven't
had any justice involvement in twenty five years. Hell, what
(26:23):
I did at eighteen tells you nothing about who I
am as a middle aged bother. Like, it's just it's
not really relevant.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
They should they shouldn't rent anything to anyone based on
who they were at eighteen. If that's if that's a standard,
then nobody have anything.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Yeah, well especially if you're forty, you know, plus years old.
So yeah, So I get this call and the woman
is like, you know, mister Dowe. I said yeah, and
she said, well, unfortunately your application was denied. And I said,
excuse me, like I was so upset, I had just
set my Starbucks down. I'm like, what the wtf? You know, like,
are you fing kidding me? Right now? I said, this
is use of doll. I do you got the right
(26:58):
dove right right? It isn't roll doll? Yes, And she says,
you know, hey, look, I don't know what to tell you.
It's been denied. Will send you the letter. And they
basically gave me a number from Boston to call about
my denial in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And as you can imagine,
you know, after wasting a half hour on the phone,
(27:20):
I just gave up. I had to find somewhere else
to live. And because I had not anticipated being denied
access to that apartment, now, we had to scramble, right
because I'm committed to leading this organization, and we ended
up ended up securing a housing unit in a school
district that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has designated his failing.
(27:44):
And so the thought that this guy who quite frankly,
you know, we know he was racist, We know he
was a segregationist, we know he exploited vulnerable people for
his own personal political gain. The fact that this motherfucker
to this day was limiting opportunities for children like my own,
(28:06):
that it's still just talking about it just stiffens my
result to make sure this legislation is done once and
for all.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, the question that occurred to me is like why
it seems specific that they're focusing on drug convictions, Like
there's not an equivalent amendment for other like more serious crimes, right,
Like there's not strong thermon didn't say murder or domestic
abusers or you know, which is something we know as
(28:35):
Americans because of you know, the epidemic of gun crime,
like domestic abuse is a predictor of future violence, whereas
drug distribution convictions don't have long term predictive value as
to whether renters would commit a violent crime in the
future or be bad tenants. That's according to Noel Porter,
director of government affairs for the National Housing Law Project.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
So woman, by the way, So Noel, if you Noel
is a rock star, so I just have to give
her a shout out.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But it seems like the reason behind this is that
they are like significantly racially biased, right, the arrests for
drug distribution, Like in Wisconsin where you are from, black
people make up six percent of the population and fifty
three percent of drug convictions.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
Yeah, the disparities are outrageous. And think about this through
this mental exercise. You know, you're eighteen years old, you
get caught with an ounce of pot, you know, back
in you know, when I was nineteen ninety seven. Is
that distribution or is that possession?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Right? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the amounts that were.
Speaker 6 (29:47):
It's really quite frankly, going to depend on how good
is your lawyer, how well connected are you? Right, Because
it's truly this gray and fuzzy line. And so if
you're poor, you're likely to have been charged with a distribution.
If you have resources, that was likely reduced down to
a simple possession charge. And that difference, right, that subjectivity
(30:11):
is the difference between losing your fair housing protections for
the rest of your natural life. It's just crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Whereas like with murder, they can't they don't they they
can't go easy on white murderers.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
A murderer could like in this adicts couldn't have murdered
be like I'm taking you to court. You can't keep
me out of this place because I'm a murder you know.
Speaker 6 (30:32):
That's that's exact. Had had my conviction been for murder,
I could have sued that housing developer for refusing to
rent to me and my family.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yea, that you had there was technically some kind of
legal recourse or this was like I'm sorry, it's not
a protected category, so you have no protections here under
the law, so you may have to go to where
they are willing to rent to people like you. Which
again this brings back this whole idea of redlining and
segregation and like you know, I meant like we're talking
(31:07):
about strom Thurman, like this guy did. He betted all
in nineteen sixty four to try and stop like the
civil rights like he did philipbustered. He really tried, and
that you know, the precipitated his switch to switching parties
because of that and because he was so dedicated to
creating this like overtly segregated America. But with these kinds
(31:28):
of like with this amendment, it feels like kind of
heat like that he won. You know what I mean
by framing this this rule around drug dealers was just
coded language, just very obviously coded language. He found like
a somewhat nuanced way to keep the people out of
the places he feels they shouldn't be to begin with.
And we talk a lot about on the show about how,
(31:48):
you know, chattle slavery has always found a way to
morph into these other oppressive systems, and they all there's
there's always some form of control that can be exercised
over oppressed groups, especially people of color in this country.
And you know, with people getting kept out of affordable
housing because of a prior charge, they've they've created a
system that traps people not necessarily physically but in a
(32:10):
way physically because you're limited to where you can live,
but by excluding them from the things that allow people
to improve their situation, like building credit or these other things.
Can you kind of talk to me about how like
like how this how you get stuck like sort of
how this very specific form of redlining or segregation keeps
(32:32):
people stuck like the the like at that point, it's like,
I'm sorry, but your your chances of upward mobility are
pretty much gone or very very much diminished.
Speaker 6 (32:42):
Well, community matters, right, context matters. We know that in
so you know, take an example of you find an apartment,
you've been living there safe for five years. Well, if
you've lived anywhere for the last five years, your rent
has probably went from twelve hundred to two thousand dollars
over the last five years. I don't care where you live.
So if your and of course your income hasn't matched
(33:05):
that increase, and so one way you would try to
manage that is you'd move to a less expensive rental unit. Well,
if where you can live is limited, oftentimes you're stuck.
You don't have the option to try to find a
different rental unit that would maybe cost less. And so
that means because you're paying this exorbit rent to your
(33:27):
point you can't maybe stay on top of some of
your other bills, you can increase your credit score and
ultimately put yourself in a position to purchase a property.
Or in a case like mine, I had to send
my daughter to a private school, so our family had
to make sacrifices. I had to refrain from contributing to
(33:47):
my retirement account and put a god awful expensive private
school bill, but I had no choice, right, and so
on so many levels. If you don't have the ability
to choose where you live based on market values and
measures of risk, but instead just someone's perceived risk of
(34:07):
who you are because of a past conviction, you're just
not going to be able to access to communities that
are going to best help you. Ribe in a broader context.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You know, Miles mentioned the ways that chattel slavery kind
of morphs into different institutions in the modern world, and
you know, we've specifically talked a lot about it morphing
into you know, the carceral human caging system. I just
want to because you know you're being targeted. You know,
(34:38):
in the recent past, you spent time in prison and
got out and like really rebuilt your life in a
way that feels like, you know, the odds were stacked
against you so much, and that like just I think
having a better idea of like what you were able
to do helped helps just like kind of really drive
(35:02):
home how this specific amendment is a total fuck you
to people and just like complete, wildly unjust. But can
you talk about just like how you built yourself coming
out of prison.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
Yeah, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate even when I
was behind bars. Actually, my journey to a better life
started behind bars. I had this chance encounter with a
guy who was in the Wisconsin prison system for defrauding
the Kohlder Corporation. And so you should never defraud anyone,
but you sure the hell don't want to defraud a
(35:36):
company that has a town named after it. So you know,
this guy brilliant, you know, master's degree in engineering from
the Northeast. So he's into a Wisconsin prison system with me,
and he taught me how to program computers. And so
when I came home, was very fortunate, you know, was
able to work my way into some development roles and
(35:58):
Fortune five hundred companies. You know, I've worked on three continents.
I've built software in India, in Africa. I had a
fellowship from Google. I served as president of Wisconsin's largest
trade association. I had a full scholarship to Princeton University
for graduate school. You don't just really have been incredibly
(36:18):
fortunate and have done so many things that tells you
who I am today. All of those things I just
noted tell you more about me today than my conviction
from when I was eighteen years old.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah sure, yeah, sure, right, And because your story is
far from the norm, it's you know, like quite an
exceptional case, like that is not the norm for people
re entering after being incarcerated, Like and if it's that
difficult for you, that's exactly right, someone who can point
to all these bona fides like I've been educated in
(36:53):
the IVY League, I've been working like very consistent jobs,
I've been successful, that the chances for anyone else who
go back to reduced opportunity, lack of opportunity and don't
have that kind of upper mobility, then it truly just
does become this thing like, well, now you're back in
the neighborhood where you were doing dirt and your only
options are to do dirt. And I think there's also
(37:15):
like even when we look at when we have these conversations,
we still don't we're still not able to look at
things like drug dealing as as a form of like
lack of financial recourse for people like no one is
dealing drugs because they're like, you know what, I always
wanted to deal drugs, you know what I mean, like
just something I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I had the offer from Google. And also.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I was like, no, man, the block needs me. I
wanted to be one of them boys, you know what
I mean, that one of these Google people. But you know,
like that, we don't actually we never look at sort
of things like survival crime too in a certain context
and be able to extend empathy in those situations. Obviously
violent crime can be a completely different thing. But when
you look at things like this, like most people, especially
(38:04):
people who have dabbled in it, they have very similar
stories of my back was to a wall. If I
just move this thing from point A to point B,
or I let somebody stat something at my house and
then I somehow a bust happened and it completely ruined
my life. That these people aren't coming at it from
being wanting having some kind of like sociopathic desire to
(38:26):
to break the law.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
That's a great point. That's that's that's a great point.
And all of that nuance is missed, right, That's that's
that's the most frustrating piece of this. And you know
what keeps me motivated every day is because this has
been a slog. I mean, changing federal legislation is a slog, right,
And what keeps me motivated is that there are literally
(38:49):
tens of thousands of people right now in this country
who were in my situation but didn't have an alternative
option for their family, right. You know that that's just wrong,
and that's honestly what keeps me motivated every day to
get this over the finish line.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, all right, well we should take one more break
and we'll come back, and we're back, and so, you know,
this is one way that I feel like redlining is
(39:32):
still kind of that it's like a neo redlining that's
still happening today. We've talked, like there's been reporting in
the past decades about you know, real estate agents sort
of being an informal barrier to you know, black families
moving into certain parts of towns, engaging informally and discriminatory practices.
(39:55):
But what have you seen how what are the other
ways that you see kind of of redlining still upheld
even though it's technically illegal.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And I have
a buddy who's very supportive of this work that I'm doing.
But he he leads the National Association of Real Estate
Brokers and it's basically like the trade association for Black realtors,
and he leads the Milwaukee chapter, and you know, I
(40:25):
was talking to him about this work guy I'm doing,
and he said, you know, I remember when I got
out of prison. How you know I would have to
pay extra fees if I wanted to rent an apartment
solely because of a past conviction. And that was one
way to kind of it was a barrier for him
because he'd have to put up like two times the
security deposit, and he didn't have that type of money,
(40:47):
so that particular apartment wouldn't be available to him. Or
you know, he submitted an offer when he became a
real estate investor. You know, he submitted an offer to
a you know, well to do area, and with everyone's
information public and online, you know, he noticed several times
he just did not get a response from the seller
(41:09):
about his offer, and two weeks later there's an accepted
offer on the property. So I mean, it's it's an
unnecessary tool that lends itself to abuse, either by people
who really have ill intentions or just people who are
who are clueless and honestly are unwittingly perpetuating you know,
(41:32):
these very systemic disadvantage that disadvantages that we've been talking about.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
What's kind of been the biggest hurdle in terms of
because I know, like you know, I've worked in politics,
and on the state level, there's things like ballot initiatives
you can do to try and change laws and regulations
and things like that, but like doing it on a
federal level, what's been I mean, aside from trying to
(42:00):
do away with something that has been like the cause
of so much pain for people but is seen as
a norm, what's kind of been like the hardest sort
of well, the hardest part about the process in terms
of trying to get people to understand like this isn't
necessary and there's something actually need to move past because
it's causing soone's damage.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah, well, I think it's just getting visibility on this issue.
And that's why I'm so appreciative of you guys for
highlighting this issue on your platform, because here's the reality.
You'll never convince me that if the general public was
aware that current housing policy in this country, at least
(42:39):
part of it is being directed by someone like strom
Thurman and these are the outcomes of this housing policy,
that folks would just.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Be like, yeah, that makes sense, let's.
Speaker 6 (42:47):
Keep that in place, right, we're good here, exactly no
reason to reform that. And so it's really this has
been going on for almost forty years because of who
it is impacts, right, it impacts the most vulnerable people,
and you said it yourself. My experience is an outlier.
And so they just happen to, quite frankly, do it
(43:10):
to the wrong person who's prepared to go all in
on this shit and do whatever it takes to change
this legislation. But if for the average person who can
invest this type of time and resources to do this stuff,
and so's it just becomes the status quo. And so
the biggest challenge has been raising the visibility of this
(43:33):
issue so that folks understand why they can care. Because
I guarantee you the folks who are listening to this
right now, they're not going to be for it. And
so I encourage them to reach out to me and
figure out how can they support this effort to get
their legislators to do something and repeal this useless amendment.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
No, yeah, I think I think a lot of listeners
are probably definitely sympathetic towards that, no doubt and use
of what would you say, you know, just to for
something for people to keep in mind when they hear
about because I think, like you know, when people hear
about someone who is in prison is going to move
in you know, right, we have this sort of like
sort of inbuilt response that because I like you. Sadly,
(44:15):
even though we pretend our carcial system is about like
rehabilitation or anything, it really isn't. It's just it's like
a revolving door. What do you think? What what are
sort of the obstacles that you challenge people to sort
of challenge their own thinking when think like when being
confronted in a situation like this, or someone says, oh,
I couldn't rent to this person they were a drug dealer,
and then they say, oh, well, good good, that's that's good.
(44:37):
You good good, you stopped that from happening. What sort
of the shift that you feel people need to make
and able to sort of look at the world with
a bit of a more equitable lens in this in
this context.
Speaker 6 (44:49):
Well, someone who would say something like that, I don't
know what the hell I would say to that person,
but but I would say that, look, this criminal legal
system has grown exponentially, and so it's hard to find
somebody who doesn't have some type of tangential connection to
the system. And I think that's you know, as people
(45:10):
have that connection, I think they develop the empathy. You'll
never convince me you have to enforce the Thermin Amendment
to make money. That's bullshit. And I'll call it as
it is because I know that's not true. And so
I mean, folks have to just because you can do it.
I mean, this is the problem. This is exactly what happens.
You're a landlord. You go to your attorney and say, hey, look,
(45:31):
I need to develop my screen screening criteria and I
don't want to run a foul of the Fair Housing Act,
right that. This is what happens. Your attorney is going
to do their job and they're going to say, Okay,
you can legally do these things. You can deny all
applications with a drug distribution conviction. Okay, boom, let's do that,
and for all these other criminal classifications, this is what
(45:52):
you need to do. Okay, fine, Right, So as long
as this is legal, this is going to be a problem.
And that is why we have to repeal the Thermin
Amendment in one hundred and eighteenth Congress.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
M Yeah, Actually, that's the best place to leave it.
Let's just leave it done, all right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Well, thank you so much, YUSUF doll for joining us
and talking about your work. Where can people find you?
Follow you all that good stuff and learn more about
how to help you in your fight to overturn the
Thermon Amendment.
Speaker 6 (46:25):
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, Instagram, USUF dial, and I
have a website thermin amendment dot org. Again, thermin amendment
dot org. You can connect with me on that platform
as well.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And that's th h U R M O N D
amendment not like Uma Thurman or Thurmon months and use
of doll is y U s U F D A
h L.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Yes, Okay, you're looking. Is there a work of media
that you've been enjoying work of media that I've been
in be a tweet? It can be well okay, okay,
I have to put it out there. So we just
started binge while watching a ninety Day Fiance. Yeah, yeah,
the ninety days before though. I think it's a different
program than my daughter. I only watch this stuff because
(47:09):
of my daughter. She's a total like trash reality TV first.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
And so I get there.
Speaker 6 (47:14):
Anyways, that stuff is pretty hilarious. So I'm into that
right now.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
Amazing, perfect answer.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Miles, where can people find you and what is the
work media you've been?
Speaker 3 (47:24):
You can find me at Miles of Gray wherever they
got the at symbol. You can also find Jack and
I on our basketball podcast with the NBA called Miles
and Jack on Mad Boosti's and also you can find
me on my ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty Day
Fiance with Sophia Alexandra because you know what some of
us like to play in the trash too. You know,
(47:44):
some of us were of the trash and I love
it with all my being. And yeah, that's where you
can find me in the pod space thing of work
in media, like this Korean reality show Physical one hundred
is back with a new season on Netflix, and again
as someone who is always wowed by people who have
that kind of discipline with their fitness, I'm there's just
(48:06):
no short shortage of like just moments when I watch
it show, I'm like, I could, I would know, I'm
just not gonna do that, but I like to watch
other people suffer and use their big muscular bodies and
doing stuff. So anyway, yeah, that's what I'm watching Physical
one hundred amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien
tweet I've been enjoying Noah garfin Gold tweeted, you have
to eat so many vegetables or you will die. That's okay.
Everyone likes potatoes. Oh yeah, there is one that doesn't
count and it is potatoes. And then Troy Johnson underscore.
Troy Johnson on Twitter tweeted, the black jelly bean is
(48:42):
the best bean made of corn syrup, yak ormeister, eyeshadow,
and cure songs. Flavor stays in your mouth until Jesus
comes back. Supreme. You can find us on Twitter at
daily Zeitgeist. Where at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram, we
have a Facebook fan page and a website daily zeikeis
dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes
(49:05):
where we link off to the information that we talked
about in today's episode, as well as a song that
we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do you
think people might enjoy? Yes?
Speaker 3 (49:16):
A song, Yes, a song. This track just I just
want to play a little bit of you know, like
some psych indie rock. This is crumb ce U r
NB and their new track A Mama, A m A
m A.
Speaker 6 (49:29):
You guessed it.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Right, and I just like the you know it just
it just got again. When I listened to like indie rock,
the rhythm sections gotta be on point. I gotta like
what the drummer's doing, I gotta like what the basis
is doing, and I like what they're doing on this track.
So this is a A Mama by Crumb.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes.
The Daily Zi is the production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio Wrap
Apple podcast. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that
is gonna do it for us this morning, back this
afternoon to tell you what is trend thing and we'll
talk to you all then Bye bye bye yeah
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point thirty two,
episode two.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Of their Daily's I Guys Stay production of iHeart Radio.
This is a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April second,
twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Four, the day after April Fool's Day, wherein we all
admit they got our ass. They did get our ass
in some cases.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I went to seven eleven and I demanded they give
me this the hot dog flavor of sparkling water, and they.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Called the cops. Yeah, that video's going viral.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
You really well, Yeah, I probably should have kept my
clothes on, but I was really upset. Yeah, but yeah,
I will say Also, April second is National DIY Day
for all of us that tried to do it ourselves,
National ferret Day, National Peanut butter and Jelly Day. And
also I'm wondering if, because this is the day after
fooling people and being very deceptive, it's also National Reconciliation Day.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah. Man, I've got a lot of apologizing to do.
Oh no, and I've got a lot of forgiving to do.
Exactly know, if you heard our trending episode yesterday, I
wasn't kind about my kids April fools pranks. Yes, I'll
show you the sign myles on me.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Not not nice.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah. So it's written with gusto too. I can tell it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Exclamation point that it was. It was after a kick me,
so they built to it. It wasn't just like you know,
this guy is a piss pig.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Soccer action. Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So we made it through April Fool's Day and to
Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. Peanut butter and jelly yeah,
together and never never heard of such a thing. That's
that's wild. My name is Jack O'Brien aka Kangaroo Jack O'Brien. Yes,
I am also known as Kangaroo Jack o' brian.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Pretty frequently.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I'm compared to that film because I often lure you
in with the promise of a rapping kangaroo and then
it turns out it's just something that I dreamed.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Oh good, that's not in the movie.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Huh it is.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
It's a dream sequence.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Oh but it's not a rapping. It's not about a rapping.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
It's not about a rapping kangaroo.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Who's that Anthony Edwards?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Anthony Edwards and the kid who played the chubby kid
from or Stand By Me. Jerry O'Connell.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah yeah, yep. Oh, Michael Shannon is also in it.
Wow yeah early Michael Shannon, Wow wow wow, just bringing.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
The I mean Michael Shannon intensity.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
To cannot reget this rapping kangaroo to be very entertaining, like,
oh god, sorry, Michael Shannon.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That AKA courtesy of the Frequent News Ghost makes sense
that they're good at ak is because they're handle an
ak of this show. Everybody's always saying, hey, have you
checked out the Frequent News Go, I mean the daily
site case.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Anyways, I'm throwing to be joined as always by my
co host, mister Miles.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Grass Miles Gray AKA, ooh wee, I have unbreakable glasses.
Oh oh, I dare you to try.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
I don't care that they just broke anyway, I don't
care about that. Shout out to the Ray J's Unbreakable
Sunglasses video where he's asking Speedy to break his sunglass.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Because they don't break them, and then when he breaks them,
he said, I don't care. It's just the best, just
the best sequence of events. Shout out to Max r
on the Discord for for memorializing that in one of
my favorite Weezer songs.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
So appreciate amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, We're thrilled, Miles to be joined in our third
seats by an affordable housing advocate who is working to
help address modern day redlining by trying to overturn the
Thurmond Amendment. Please welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
Useuf dog. Well, I appreciate that. I wish I had
an aka I could reference, but uh, it's just you.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So it's just sometimes sometimes the name is enough. You know,
it proceeds, you know, Valley of the Doll.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Let's not think about dollar arts by hole to bring
it back to the nineties. Is that the one some day?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Well, think is that? Is that doll parts? I don't
not a lot of Courtney Love Cobaine fans in here.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Huh okay, I was.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I was Cobaine, but I think Hoole went a little
too hard for me. Look, man, I'm still getting over
this idea of peanut, butter and jelly together.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I mean, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh yeah, yep, you will ache like I that's doll parts,
all parts. Thank you nineteen ninety four brain. You're welcome. Uh,
but yusef, where are you coming to us.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
From Allentown, Pennsylvania?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Okay, okay, I mean it's kind of a seminole place
in terms of housing when we're talking about housing, right, I.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Mean, certainly, I think it's the type of city that's
emblematic of a lot of our cities across the country
that really are a tale of two cities. Right. There's
places in this community that are vibrant and thriving, and
there's a lot of other parts in the city that
have quite frankly been left behind.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Right. Yeah, Yeah, oh man, I'm really looking forward to
our discussion because, like as you were saying before we came,
you came on, you know, like when we have these
guests on to talk about a specific subject, I mean,
just the thermin Amendment just opens the door to so
many different conversations, whether it's about our car sol system,
whether it's about housing, how we view housing, and even
(05:42):
how America even does its threat assessments, and they typically
just end up being just overtly racist. And this is
no exception, There's no exception.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What is the attitude in Allentown towards the Billy Joel song.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
One of ambivalents because it's a good song, right, So
it's kind of hard not to like the song. But
I think the city has really done a tremendous job
of reinventing itself, and so you know, there's a sense
that that song really doesn't represent the spirit in the
future of Allentown today. So there's a level of ambivalence.
(06:18):
But it's Jill Billy Joel, so you can't really, you know,
hate it too much.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, I mean he said opens up, well we're living
here in Allentown, and you know, I mean that's those
are the only lyrics that I know. So I was
going to try and say something profound about it, but okay,
I can't remember any of the other parts. Something about
a factory town.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
There, you remember what that song about?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Incisive commentary like, well, we're living here in Allentown is
a lyric in Allentown there? It is all right, great, Well,
we're going to talk about housing in a moment, but
before we get into our expert get area of expertise,
we do like to get to know you a little
bit better by asking what's either something from your search
(07:08):
history that's revealing about who you are or something that
you have recently screencapped short first screen captured that is
revealing about screen shot it even green shot a screen
shot it.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
Yeah, so my last screen shot was actually a list
of Republicans on the Financial Services Committee, so directly related
to this work on the the Therm and Amendment. As
I'm sure we're going to get into this is this
is going to be a big month because we have
legislation that's going to be introduced, but we're trying to
make it bipartisan, and so I'm doing a lot of
(07:42):
work trying to identify folks on the right who might
be interested in this common sense reform to extend opportunity.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
How's it going? How are you feeling about that?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
How you see any any names on there that you're
like they seem to exist in a version of reality.
Speaker 7 (08:00):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (08:01):
I tend to be an optimistic person. I always feel
like the thing with legislation is the key is to
actually get in front of these people. So for me,
the challenges how do you how do you look at
this list and how do you mine your network to
get in the door. Because you believe that if you
can just get in front of these people and explain
(08:23):
what you're trying to do, common sense will prevail and
you'll get through, right.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Is that do you think that's I mean, I guess
there's something with housing. How do you how do you
sort of tailor this argument to appeal to someone like
Ron Johnson who has dealt in all kinds of really
backwards thinking out loud when it comes to things like
the carcial system or race and things like that. Do
you have to is he actually be like, oh, that's
messed up, like people who just had a drug charge
(08:51):
can't get in the housing? Like yeah, I want to
do that? Or is it? Or like how do you
thread that needle? Because from my perspective, like what do
you tell Ron Johnson to try and get him to
see the light in terms of something like this is
common sense reform, like that there's no net negative here.
This is like about just like making things a little
bit more equitable. And they'll be like, what is that woke?
(09:11):
But yeah, I'm curious what sort of what's the what's
the dance with something like that?
Speaker 6 (09:16):
Well, so I think first of all, you always have
to contextualize this in the framework of opportunity, right, because
in theory, everybody wants to extend opportunity to people in
this country in theory, and so it was really about legislation,
like the Thermin Amendment denies people have been justice impacted
(09:37):
the ability to be judged based on market measures and
assessments of risk. Right. So, the market has a way
of predicting or suggesting how reliable you're going to be
as a creditor. Right So it's your credit score, it's
it's your income history. There's a lot of different measures
(09:58):
that objectively, the market is signs to you to suggest
your risk profile. The Thermin Amendment nullifies all of that.
And so the case that I made was, Hey, give
these folks access to the free market and the free
market mechanisms of risk like everyone else. And you know,
and I made the analogy that I can literally go
(10:20):
to a bank right now and borrow a million dollars.
I can do that, but I could not secure a
townhome apartment because of my twenty five year old drug
distribution conviction. That just didn't seem to make a lot
of sense. Wow, oh, now does that translate to actual support?
I mean that's the right, right, I mean, anyone anyone
(10:42):
can sit across from you and say, yeah, that doesn't
make sense. But what you really need are folks who
are going to put some capital on the table and
help you affect this change.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, abstraction is the root of the problems that are
happening where it's like easier to just make somebody a concept,
you know that's like on your screen or like a
you know, a number on a spreadsheet. And when you
actually get in a room with a person and they
have to deal with the fact that you know, you
are a human being, it at least for that time
(11:15):
can make a big change. But then after the fact,
as a matter of like getting them not to go
back to the comfortable thing of you know, a system
that seems to lend itself to just abstracting people and
treating people as like values on a spreadsheet. So yeah,
doing truly the difficult important work. What is something that
(11:38):
you think is underrated?
Speaker 6 (11:40):
I would say, and primarily because I'm a father of
a fifteen year old, and I would say youth sports.
So she plays a lot of sports, takes up a
ton of my time, but it really just gives her
a great outlet to develop confidence, learn the priorities of discipline.
(12:00):
So I meet young people all the time who aren't
in organized sports for a variety of reasons, and I
just think we should do more of that. Like when
I was a kid, I mean, even though I wasn't
in organized sports leagues, like we would always just go
to the park and play pickup basketball or something like this.
And now, I mean, God, if I didn't force her
(12:21):
to play sports, she would be on her phone on
TikTok or something literally ungodly hours a day. So I'm
a big believer in youth sports.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, Like how does cause I have very early experiences
with youth sports and it's hard to like maintain sanity
and maintain your distance from it. Like do you find
yourself just swallowing your tongue while you're at I think
your daughter plays tennis.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Tennis and basketball, and I would say, your kids are
gonna let you get away with voicing your opinion when
they're five and six or seven. Try that at our
high school back you won't be back there. So I
think you learn just as they get older, what they're
comfortable with. And at the end of the day, if
(13:11):
if they don't want to hear you, you know, yelling
your feedback, you're gonna have to find another way to
give it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
That is so wild because like, I can't remember half
of my teammates from like some of the organized sports
I played as a kid, but I remember the loudest
parents that were not my friends. I'm like, damn, bro,
mister Borna is going the fuck off again. And you're
like and you're like, you're like, yo, man, it's cool.
Your dad's so intense, and it's just like, no.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Bro, just like.
Speaker 8 (13:37):
Does his look his look that he just gave I
swear I see that every basketball Yeah, your daughter in particular, No, no, No,
I've learned my lesson.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
She will. Yeah, I have to be very deliberate in
what I'm doing. But there are some other parents that, oh, man,
these guys and it's typically the dad. Yeah, they're they're
all in and you're like, whoa, take it down a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, right, How do you deal with the screen side
of it, like the other side? You know, it sounds
like you're thinking of youth sports as like sort of
one weapon on the side of good against you know,
the screens just taking over. Like I heard in talking
to a parent this weekend, they were like, yeah, it
kind of feels messed up that like one of the
(14:24):
things that like you have as a parent is be like,
no iPad. Then if you're not going to do that,
no iPad, then we're gonna like basically we're going to
take your drugs away.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Right right right? You know, yeah right your iPad?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah yeah yeah, But like, how how has that process
been for you as a parent of fifteen year old?
Speaker 6 (14:44):
Yeah, well, as the parent of any fifteen year old
is going to tell you, it has to be something
serious if you're going for the phone, because you know
all hell is going to break out, So it has
to be level ten where it's just like, okay, the phone,
give me the phone, and you're willing to stand on it.
But honestly, I have to be very intentional because otherwise
(15:07):
you're gonna say give me the phone and you're gonna
encounter a headache that you're just like, man, this wasn't
worth it for me, but.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
My phone too.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
Actually exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
What what's something you think is overrated?
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Oh? By far? The Stanley water bottles. That's just ridiculous.
So yeah, my daughter has a couple of them, which
I refuse to buy any of them. But it's sure
it's a I'm sure it's a high quality water bottle. Right,
I'm familiar with the company, but there's a whole bunch
of high quality water bottles that will keep your beverages
(15:48):
cold or keep them warm, and they don't have that
same price point. So I just think those things are
terribly overrated.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, it feels like there were due for the backlash
where some other brand like kind of pops up. We've
talked about what's the od one, the o wala Yeah,
oh walla. Yeah, that one's pretty good, but doesn't seem
like it's quite.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
The straw built in. Yeah, it's just but I mean
it just shows you again like it was all because
of the marketing genius at Stanley, like they pressed it's
just all they just want full court press on influencers.
That's gonna completely inform the market of what's cool. And
when someone's like, yo, I got this limited edition one.
It's the Philippines exclusive color way of a fucking cup,
(16:33):
and people are like, ah, I'll pick five dollars for it.
On the on the secondary market, it's yeah, it becomes
this other thing. But yeah, I mean I feel like,
you know, maybe yeah, there's maybe there's a company that
comes in. It's like we got the two dollars cup, right,
everyone should be buying. But then it's like, but it
is made of lead, So we just be really clear
on that. Yeah, there's like lead in one of the
(16:55):
parts of it and that and I know that that
caused some people, especially in Los Angeles to clutch their
yoga blocks and be like, oh, okay, right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Anymore stupid La and their soft hippie dippy ways. They're
not happy drinking water out of lead cups.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
There's just a part of the cup you don't interact
with the part that has lead in it. Okay, that's
the thing that many of the Stanley the Stanley stands.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Plus it will help you if you're getting dental X rays.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
True, it makes sense, like we needed something that could
appear with you in like a shot, you know, like
when you're like in a you know, shoes were the
thing that was the most kind of captured by the
influencer market for a long time. And then like, but
you can't have your shoes in like a selfie with
(17:45):
you unless you're really flexible. So the Stanley water bottle
like answers that.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
It's it's like a bag or something because you can
have your whole outfit on. Let them know. There's all
my signifiers. And also I got the quencher is the
forty ounce m hmm. Yeah. I think I'm just intimidated
by like things that are that cumbersome too. It's like, bro,
I can't, fuck I can't. I can't walk around with
a gigantic cup all the time, like like in the house,
I have like a normal cup. I can just keep refilling.
(18:11):
But something that big. I remember even when I was
like at the height of like my water drinking, I
like tapped out of like thirty ounces like.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That, and we're glad we got you back from the edge.
Thanks and touch and go there. Yeah, those meetings are helping.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I had to keep going to the bathroom.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
I'm like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I usually that's the sign of a different problem, but
it was, yeah, like, no, you can't stop drinking water.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
So there's a perfect in the thermin event.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, is he beaming up in the bathroom? No, man,
he's drinking forty ounces of liquid at a time. We
told him it said danger to his kidneys, but he
doesn't listen.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We found one doctor quote doctor in quote who says
that he needs forty ounces of water between me.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, is that even possible?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Bro?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
My favorite doctor Bradley from Sublime forty Ounces of Freedom.
That's how I that's how, that's how.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think that's what that song was actually about.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It's Padrinck and forty.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come
back and we will get into it.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
And so we've been talking about the Thurman Amendment, and
so just to confirm off top, the thermon we're talking
about here is not beloved Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. No,
it's not even kill Bill star Uma Thurman. It is,
in fact, a much worse Thurmond Strom. Is that correct,
(19:55):
segregationist Strom. Thurmond is who this amendment is named after.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Indeed, Yeah, there's a really interesting Yeah. He just threw
it out there in the eighties and kind of completely
changed the course of our housing policies, because right when
this was happening, this was about making amendments of the
Fair Housing Act, where it's like, well, maybe we need
to add a new category of protected class disability, and
(20:20):
then he's like, ah, I got one, I got one,
I got one. What if we strip it away from
drug dealers.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
How about that, y'all?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Is strong Therman back at it again. I know I
took a big o in nineteen sixty four by preventing
the Civil Rights Act from happening, but I never let
it go of that anger, and I'm trying to get
it back in today.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
In the eighties.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, I think it was nineteen eighty eight, was it?
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah? It was eighty eight. And what's interesting about it
is I was in contact with his archives at Clemson University,
and so I said, Hey, I'm working on this legislation.
Can you send me anything you have about this particular amendment.
And you would think, you know, there'd be communications or
correspondence with trained associations or advocates or impacted people. Literally,
(21:04):
there was nothing, nothing in the archives except one piece
of paper, and it was his remarks that he delivered
after the passage of the nineteen eighty eight Fairhousing Amendments Act.
And in his written remarks, he anticipated this amendment failing
it literally says, and while my amendment did not pass,
(21:26):
blah blah blah. He actually crossed that out and in
handwritten he hand wrote, I'm glad my amendment passed and
blah blah, blah. So he didn't. I don't even think
he anticipated this passing.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Right, Wow, that is super. I had no idea that
because I know, like, oh wow, we're racist racist in
this country. Damn all right, guys, thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Oh I don't even know. I'm gonna be real, man.
I'm used to going out there saying see that going
this way. Yeah, I used to say something so flagrant
They're like, strong, shut up, and then I'm like, oh okay,
but then they passed. Let me play the clip though,
from just him at the lectern, basically saying like this
(22:12):
is this is this is what I'm proposing, little strong therment.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
One conviction is sufficient, my man. Was simple says that
one conviction is sufficient for landlord to refuse to rent
to a drug dealer. It's that simple always, my colleagues,
to vote for Amendment Faith is to do so makes
the rights of law abiding citizens meaningless. Drug dealers deserve
(22:36):
no federal protection.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And here we are voice brought to you straight from
the eighteen eighties, by the way. Oh yeah, just everything
about his voice and accent. I was like, is that
being played on a phonograph from like a retired Civil
War general. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
The suit he's wearing, if there was a pantone color
for it, it would be Confederate gray. How on point
it is. But you said, can you kind of break
down just sort of the nuance here, like what exactly
I mean, we've sort of touched upon it and some
people may know, but just kind of explain the Thermin
Amendment for people.
Speaker 6 (23:11):
Yeah, So, essentially, the Thermin Amendment means that if you
have a drug distribution conviction, and so that can be
for marijuana, it can be for any illegal substance, you
do not have fair housing protection. So a landlord can
or a seller for that matter, can look at your
application or your offer the purchase and if they find out,
(23:32):
whether through a background check or a Google search, that
you have a drug distribution conviction, again doesn't matter how
long ago it was, doesn't matter extenuating circumstances, they can
immediately summarily deny your application or refuse to sell you
their property, right right.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
And like I know you said you're trying to see
any background. This is just like so strange because this
feels obviously this was the era where you know, the
federal government was finding all kinds of ways to incarce rate,
especially people of color during the crack epidemic and these
other various periods in the eighties, and this feels part
and parcel to it. But I'm like, is there no,
(24:13):
there was no like association of like concern landlords or
something that's like Senator Thurmont, I'm telling you, man, these
they're just setting up and they're serving the community in
a different way, not serving but serving the community. And
I just I can't have that in my in my
apartment building or whatever. It just came out of his
(24:34):
just brain.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Well. So, and this is really the infuriating piece of
this legislation for me is in the late eighties there
was literally a political strategy where Republicans would attach anti
drug legislation to completely you know, non relevant bills in
the hopes of getting Democrats to vote against it, and
(24:59):
then they would use on the campaign trail and so right, yeah,
so this was all just political bullshit, quite frankly, I mean,
And and that's what's caused me to dedicate the last
three years of my life to changing this legislation. Because
the fact that my family was denied access to housing,
(25:21):
that my daughter was denied access to the school, that
she wanted to attend because of bullshit racist political games.
Is just it's it's something that I can't sit by
and just let that impact other families and kids in
this country.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, can you talk about your kind of first hand
run in with the Therma Amendment?
Speaker 6 (25:43):
Yeah, so, you know, I'm sure we'll get into my background.
But I've been a homeowner for many years. But I
relocated to Allentown to lead an education organization, and so
at the time, my daughter was a rising ninth grader.
So we're looking at school districts. I mentioned she's a
tennis player, so we wanted a school that both had
(26:03):
good academics and a strong tennis program. We identified a community,
found a town home, and said, Okay, we'll rent this.
At no point did I even imagine that my application
could be denied, right, just because I mean, I haven't
had any justice involvement in twenty five years. Hell, what
(26:23):
I did at eighteen tells you nothing about who I
am as a middle aged bother. Like, it's just it's
not really relevant.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
They should they shouldn't rent anything to anyone based on
who they were at eighteen. If that's if that's a standard,
then nobody have anything.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Yeah, well especially if you're forty, you know, plus years old.
So yeah, So I get this call and the woman
is like, you know, mister Dowe. I said yeah, and
she said, well, unfortunately your application was denied. And I said,
excuse me, like I was so upset, I had just
set my Starbucks down. I'm like, what the wtf? You know, like,
are you fing kidding me? Right now? I said, this
is use of doll. I do you got the right
(26:58):
dove right right? It isn't roll doll? Yes, And she says,
you know, hey, look, I don't know what to tell you.
It's been denied. Will send you the letter. And they
basically gave me a number from Boston to call about
my denial in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And as you can imagine,
you know, after wasting a half hour on the phone,
(27:20):
I just gave up. I had to find somewhere else
to live. And because I had not anticipated being denied
access to that apartment, now, we had to scramble, right
because I'm committed to leading this organization, and we ended
up ended up securing a housing unit in a school
district that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has designated his failing.
(27:44):
And so the thought that this guy who quite frankly,
you know, we know he was racist, We know he
was a segregationist, we know he exploited vulnerable people for
his own personal political gain. The fact that this motherfucker
to this day was limiting opportunities for children like my own,
(28:06):
that it's still just talking about it just stiffens my
result to make sure this legislation is done once and
for all.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, the question that occurred to me is like why
it seems specific that they're focusing on drug convictions, Like
there's not an equivalent amendment for other like more serious crimes, right,
Like there's not strong thermon didn't say murder or domestic
abusers or you know, which is something we know as
(28:35):
Americans because of you know, the epidemic of gun crime,
like domestic abuse is a predictor of future violence, whereas
drug distribution convictions don't have long term predictive value as
to whether renters would commit a violent crime in the
future or be bad tenants. That's according to Noel Porter,
director of government affairs for the National Housing Law Project.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
So woman, by the way, So Noel, if you Noel
is a rock star, so I just have to give
her a shout out.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But it seems like the reason behind this is that
they are like significantly racially biased, right, the arrests for
drug distribution, Like in Wisconsin where you are from, black
people make up six percent of the population and fifty
three percent of drug convictions.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
Yeah, the disparities are outrageous. And think about this through
this mental exercise. You know, you're eighteen years old, you
get caught with an ounce of pot, you know, back
in you know, when I was nineteen ninety seven. Is
that distribution or is that possession?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Right? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the amounts that were.
Speaker 6 (29:47):
It's really quite frankly, going to depend on how good
is your lawyer, how well connected are you? Right, Because
it's truly this gray and fuzzy line. And so if
you're poor, you're likely to have been charged with a distribution.
If you have resources, that was likely reduced down to
a simple possession charge. And that difference, right, that subjectivity
(30:11):
is the difference between losing your fair housing protections for
the rest of your natural life. It's just crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Whereas like with murder, they can't they don't they they
can't go easy on white murderers.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
A murderer could like in this adicts couldn't have murdered
be like I'm taking you to court. You can't keep
me out of this place because I'm a murder you know.
Speaker 6 (30:32):
That's that's exact. Had had my conviction been for murder,
I could have sued that housing developer for refusing to
rent to me and my family.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yea, that you had there was technically some kind of
legal recourse or this was like I'm sorry, it's not
a protected category, so you have no protections here under
the law, so you may have to go to where
they are willing to rent to people like you. Which
again this brings back this whole idea of redlining and
segregation and like you know, I meant like we're talking
(31:07):
about strom Thurman, like this guy did. He betted all
in nineteen sixty four to try and stop like the
civil rights like he did philipbustered. He really tried, and
that you know, the precipitated his switch to switching parties
because of that and because he was so dedicated to
creating this like overtly segregated America. But with these kinds
(31:28):
of like with this amendment, it feels like kind of
heat like that he won. You know what I mean
by framing this this rule around drug dealers was just
coded language, just very obviously coded language. He found like
a somewhat nuanced way to keep the people out of
the places he feels they shouldn't be to begin with.
And we talk a lot about on the show about how,
(31:48):
you know, chattle slavery has always found a way to
morph into these other oppressive systems, and they all there's
there's always some form of control that can be exercised
over oppressed groups, especially people of color in this country.
And you know, with people getting kept out of affordable
housing because of a prior charge, they've they've created a
system that traps people not necessarily physically but in a
(32:10):
way physically because you're limited to where you can live,
but by excluding them from the things that allow people
to improve their situation, like building credit or these other things.
Can you kind of talk to me about how like
like how this how you get stuck like sort of
how this very specific form of redlining or segregation keeps
(32:32):
people stuck like the the like at that point, it's like,
I'm sorry, but your your chances of upward mobility are
pretty much gone or very very much diminished.
Speaker 6 (32:42):
Well, community matters, right, context matters. We know that in
so you know, take an example of you find an apartment,
you've been living there safe for five years. Well, if
you've lived anywhere for the last five years, your rent
has probably went from twelve hundred to two thousand dollars
over the last five years. I don't care where you live.
So if your and of course your income hasn't matched
(33:05):
that increase, and so one way you would try to
manage that is you'd move to a less expensive rental unit. Well,
if where you can live is limited, oftentimes you're stuck.
You don't have the option to try to find a
different rental unit that would maybe cost less. And so
that means because you're paying this exorbit rent to your
(33:27):
point you can't maybe stay on top of some of
your other bills, you can increase your credit score and
ultimately put yourself in a position to purchase a property.
Or in a case like mine, I had to send
my daughter to a private school, so our family had
to make sacrifices. I had to refrain from contributing to
(33:47):
my retirement account and put a god awful expensive private
school bill, but I had no choice, right, and so
on so many levels. If you don't have the ability
to choose where you live based on market values and
measures of risk, but instead just someone's perceived risk of
(34:07):
who you are because of a past conviction, you're just
not going to be able to access to communities that
are going to best help you. Ribe in a broader context.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You know, Miles mentioned the ways that chattel slavery kind
of morphs into different institutions in the modern world, and
you know, we've specifically talked a lot about it morphing
into you know, the carceral human caging system. I just
want to because you know you're being targeted. You know,
(34:38):
in the recent past, you spent time in prison and
got out and like really rebuilt your life in a
way that feels like, you know, the odds were stacked
against you so much, and that like just I think
having a better idea of like what you were able
to do helped helps just like kind of really drive
(35:02):
home how this specific amendment is a total fuck you
to people and just like complete, wildly unjust. But can
you talk about just like how you built yourself coming
out of prison.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
Yeah, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate even when I
was behind bars. Actually, my journey to a better life
started behind bars. I had this chance encounter with a
guy who was in the Wisconsin prison system for defrauding
the Kohlder Corporation. And so you should never defraud anyone,
but you sure the hell don't want to defraud a
(35:36):
company that has a town named after it. So you know,
this guy brilliant, you know, master's degree in engineering from
the Northeast. So he's into a Wisconsin prison system with me,
and he taught me how to program computers. And so
when I came home, was very fortunate, you know, was
able to work my way into some development roles and
(35:58):
Fortune five hundred companies. You know, I've worked on three continents.
I've built software in India, in Africa. I had a
fellowship from Google. I served as president of Wisconsin's largest
trade association. I had a full scholarship to Princeton University
for graduate school. You don't just really have been incredibly
(36:18):
fortunate and have done so many things that tells you
who I am today. All of those things I just
noted tell you more about me today than my conviction
from when I was eighteen years old.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah sure, yeah, sure, right, And because your story is
far from the norm, it's you know, like quite an
exceptional case, like that is not the norm for people
re entering after being incarcerated, Like and if it's that
difficult for you, that's exactly right, someone who can point
to all these bona fides like I've been educated in
(36:53):
the IVY League, I've been working like very consistent jobs,
I've been successful, that the chances for anyone else who
go back to reduced opportunity, lack of opportunity and don't
have that kind of upper mobility, then it truly just
does become this thing like, well, now you're back in
the neighborhood where you were doing dirt and your only
options are to do dirt. And I think there's also
(37:15):
like even when we look at when we have these conversations,
we still don't we're still not able to look at
things like drug dealing as as a form of like
lack of financial recourse for people like no one is
dealing drugs because they're like, you know what, I always
wanted to deal drugs, you know what I mean, like
just something I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I had the offer from Google. And also.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I was like, no, man, the block needs me. I
wanted to be one of them boys, you know what
I mean, that one of these Google people. But you know,
like that, we don't actually we never look at sort
of things like survival crime too in a certain context
and be able to extend empathy in those situations. Obviously
violent crime can be a completely different thing. But when
you look at things like this, like most people, especially
(38:04):
people who have dabbled in it, they have very similar
stories of my back was to a wall. If I
just move this thing from point A to point B,
or I let somebody stat something at my house and
then I somehow a bust happened and it completely ruined
my life. That these people aren't coming at it from
being wanting having some kind of like sociopathic desire to
(38:26):
to break the law.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
That's a great point. That's that's that's a great point.
And all of that nuance is missed, right, That's that's
that's the most frustrating piece of this. And you know
what keeps me motivated every day is because this has
been a slog. I mean, changing federal legislation is a slog, right,
And what keeps me motivated is that there are literally
(38:49):
tens of thousands of people right now in this country
who were in my situation but didn't have an alternative
option for their family, right. You know that that's just wrong,
and that's honestly what keeps me motivated every day to
get this over the finish line.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, all right, well we should take one more break
and we'll come back, and we're back, and so, you know,
this is one way that I feel like redlining is
(39:32):
still kind of that it's like a neo redlining that's
still happening today. We've talked, like there's been reporting in
the past decades about you know, real estate agents sort
of being an informal barrier to you know, black families
moving into certain parts of towns, engaging informally and discriminatory practices.
(39:55):
But what have you seen how what are the other
ways that you see kind of of redlining still upheld
even though it's technically illegal.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And I have
a buddy who's very supportive of this work that I'm doing.
But he he leads the National Association of Real Estate
Brokers and it's basically like the trade association for Black realtors,
and he leads the Milwaukee chapter, and you know, I
(40:25):
was talking to him about this work guy I'm doing,
and he said, you know, I remember when I got
out of prison. How you know I would have to
pay extra fees if I wanted to rent an apartment
solely because of a past conviction. And that was one
way to kind of it was a barrier for him
because he'd have to put up like two times the
security deposit, and he didn't have that type of money,
(40:47):
so that particular apartment wouldn't be available to him. Or
you know, he submitted an offer when he became a
real estate investor. You know, he submitted an offer to
a you know, well to do area, and with everyone's
information public and online, you know, he noticed several times
he just did not get a response from the seller
(41:09):
about his offer, and two weeks later there's an accepted
offer on the property. So I mean, it's it's an
unnecessary tool that lends itself to abuse, either by people
who really have ill intentions or just people who are
who are clueless and honestly are unwittingly perpetuating you know,
(41:32):
these very systemic disadvantage that disadvantages that we've been talking about.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
What's kind of been the biggest hurdle in terms of
because I know, like you know, I've worked in politics,
and on the state level, there's things like ballot initiatives
you can do to try and change laws and regulations
and things like that, but like doing it on a
federal level, what's been I mean, aside from trying to
(42:00):
do away with something that has been like the cause
of so much pain for people but is seen as
a norm, what's kind of been like the hardest sort
of well, the hardest part about the process in terms
of trying to get people to understand like this isn't
necessary and there's something actually need to move past because
it's causing soone's damage.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah, well, I think it's just getting visibility on this issue.
And that's why I'm so appreciative of you guys for
highlighting this issue on your platform, because here's the reality.
You'll never convince me that if the general public was
aware that current housing policy in this country, at least
(42:39):
part of it is being directed by someone like strom
Thurman and these are the outcomes of this housing policy,
that folks would just.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Be like, yeah, that makes sense, let's.
Speaker 6 (42:47):
Keep that in place, right, we're good here, exactly no
reason to reform that. And so it's really this has
been going on for almost forty years because of who
it is impacts, right, it impacts the most vulnerable people,
and you said it yourself. My experience is an outlier.
And so they just happen to, quite frankly, do it
(43:10):
to the wrong person who's prepared to go all in
on this shit and do whatever it takes to change
this legislation. But if for the average person who can
invest this type of time and resources to do this stuff,
and so's it just becomes the status quo. And so
the biggest challenge has been raising the visibility of this
(43:33):
issue so that folks understand why they can care. Because
I guarantee you the folks who are listening to this
right now, they're not going to be for it. And
so I encourage them to reach out to me and
figure out how can they support this effort to get
their legislators to do something and repeal this useless amendment.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
No, yeah, I think I think a lot of listeners
are probably definitely sympathetic towards that, no doubt and use
of what would you say, you know, just to for
something for people to keep in mind when they hear
about because I think, like you know, when people hear
about someone who is in prison is going to move
in you know, right, we have this sort of like
sort of inbuilt response that because I like you. Sadly,
(44:15):
even though we pretend our carcial system is about like
rehabilitation or anything, it really isn't. It's just it's like
a revolving door. What do you think? What what are
sort of the obstacles that you challenge people to sort
of challenge their own thinking when think like when being
confronted in a situation like this, or someone says, oh,
I couldn't rent to this person they were a drug dealer,
and then they say, oh, well, good good, that's that's good.
(44:37):
You good good, you stopped that from happening. What sort
of the shift that you feel people need to make
and able to sort of look at the world with
a bit of a more equitable lens in this in
this context.
Speaker 6 (44:49):
Well, someone who would say something like that, I don't
know what the hell I would say to that person,
but but I would say that, look, this criminal legal
system has grown exponentially, and so it's hard to find
somebody who doesn't have some type of tangential connection to
the system. And I think that's you know, as people
(45:10):
have that connection, I think they develop the empathy. You'll
never convince me you have to enforce the Thermin Amendment
to make money. That's bullshit. And I'll call it as
it is because I know that's not true. And so
I mean, folks have to just because you can do it.
I mean, this is the problem. This is exactly what happens.
You're a landlord. You go to your attorney and say, hey, look,
(45:31):
I need to develop my screen screening criteria and I
don't want to run a foul of the Fair Housing Act,
right that. This is what happens. Your attorney is going
to do their job and they're going to say, Okay,
you can legally do these things. You can deny all
applications with a drug distribution conviction. Okay, boom, let's do that,
and for all these other criminal classifications, this is what
(45:52):
you need to do. Okay, fine, Right, So as long
as this is legal, this is going to be a problem.
And that is why we have to repeal the Thermin
Amendment in one hundred and eighteenth Congress.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
M Yeah, Actually, that's the best place to leave it.
Let's just leave it done, all right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Well, thank you so much, YUSUF doll for joining us
and talking about your work. Where can people find you?
Follow you all that good stuff and learn more about
how to help you in your fight to overturn the
Thermon Amendment.
Speaker 6 (46:25):
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, Instagram, USUF dial, and I
have a website thermin amendment dot org. Again, thermin amendment
dot org. You can connect with me on that platform
as well.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And that's th h U R M O N D
amendment not like Uma Thurman or Thurmon months and use
of doll is y U s U F D A
h L.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Yes, Okay, you're looking. Is there a work of media
that you've been enjoying work of media that I've been
in be a tweet? It can be well okay, okay,
I have to put it out there. So we just
started binge while watching a ninety Day Fiance. Yeah, yeah,
the ninety days before though. I think it's a different
program than my daughter. I only watch this stuff because
(47:09):
of my daughter. She's a total like trash reality TV first.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
And so I get there.
Speaker 6 (47:14):
Anyways, that stuff is pretty hilarious. So I'm into that
right now.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
Amazing, perfect answer.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Miles, where can people find you and what is the
work media you've been?
Speaker 3 (47:24):
You can find me at Miles of Gray wherever they
got the at symbol. You can also find Jack and
I on our basketball podcast with the NBA called Miles
and Jack on Mad Boosti's and also you can find
me on my ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty Day
Fiance with Sophia Alexandra because you know what some of
us like to play in the trash too. You know,
(47:44):
some of us were of the trash and I love
it with all my being. And yeah, that's where you
can find me in the pod space thing of work
in media, like this Korean reality show Physical one hundred
is back with a new season on Netflix, and again
as someone who is always wowed by people who have
that kind of discipline with their fitness, I'm there's just
(48:06):
no short shortage of like just moments when I watch
it show, I'm like, I could, I would know, I'm
just not gonna do that, but I like to watch
other people suffer and use their big muscular bodies and
doing stuff. So anyway, yeah, that's what I'm watching Physical
one hundred amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien
tweet I've been enjoying Noah garfin Gold tweeted, you have
to eat so many vegetables or you will die. That's okay.
Everyone likes potatoes. Oh yeah, there is one that doesn't
count and it is potatoes. And then Troy Johnson underscore.
Troy Johnson on Twitter tweeted, the black jelly bean is
(48:42):
the best bean made of corn syrup, yak ormeister, eyeshadow,
and cure songs. Flavor stays in your mouth until Jesus
comes back. Supreme. You can find us on Twitter at
daily Zeitgeist. Where at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram, we
have a Facebook fan page and a website daily zeikeis
dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes
(49:05):
where we link off to the information that we talked
about in today's episode, as well as a song that
we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do you
think people might enjoy? Yes?
Speaker 3 (49:16):
A song, Yes, a song. This track just I just
want to play a little bit of you know, like
some psych indie rock. This is crumb ce U r
NB and their new track A Mama, A m A
m A.
Speaker 6 (49:29):
You guessed it.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Right, and I just like the you know it just
it just got again. When I listened to like indie rock,
the rhythm sections gotta be on point. I gotta like
what the drummer's doing, I gotta like what the basis
is doing, and I like what they're doing on this track.
So this is a A Mama by Crumb.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes.
The Daily Zi is the production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio Wrap
Apple podcast. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that
is gonna do it for us this morning, back this
afternoon to tell you what is trend thing and we'll
talk to you all then Bye bye bye yeah
The Daily Zeitgeist News
Hosts And Creators
Jack O'Brien
Miles Gray
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