December 29, 2017 • 25 mins
In this special episode, Jack & Miles are joined by special guests Dani Fernandez and one of The Daily Zeitgeist writers JM McNab to discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi. SPOILERS AHEAD! PROCEED WITH CAUTION!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to this special holiday edition
of the Daily Zeitgeys, in which we are going to
talk about Star Wars, Star Wars um the Last Jedi uh,
and we have a couple of special guests. We have
Danny Fernandez. I am here, I'm enjoying the Star War talk.
(00:24):
There will be no better guests, and we're thrilled to
be joined by our writer J M McNab. Hey, guys,
thanks for having me. Hey all the way from the
Great White North. I think I wanted to just preface
this conversation by saying that I have heard many takes
on this movie, uh since it came out, and we
(00:46):
mentioned this on last week's episode. Star Wars is so
close to people that I don't think everybody has the
same reaction. Like, I think it's uniquely divisive, and I
think people's reactions and the things they focus on, like,
I've heard a bunch of people who liked it the
same amount as me, but who disliked completely different things
(01:09):
about it than me. I've heard people who loved the
things I hated, hated the things I loved. It all
depends on your relationship to Star Wars, and you know,
everybody has grown up with Star Wars, so it's but
some people definitely got way crazier than other too, like
real crazy Danny, How what what? What's your relationships Star Wars?
(01:31):
Like you know, I grew up what I didn't see
it originally in theaters, which apparently some people on the
internet think that that's got awful because I have heard no.
When Force Awakens came out, I had a guy that
was like, Star Wars is mind, Like I saw it
in theaters before you were born. I'm like, okay, why
don't you write Daisy Ridley and John Boyega then too,
because they also didn't see it in theaters. Fans are
(01:54):
so You're right, fans are so possessive of it, and
it's like you gotta let it's not entirely you. You
don't get to claim the whole fandom for yourself. I
think a lot of people what I've been seeing, like
like you said, like online, is that people had these
theories about what was going to happen when it didn't happen.
If everything that you wanted to happen happened, you would
have said it was just like huge fan service. You know,
(02:18):
Oh yeah, this was predictable is another thing. And then
if nothing happened that you wanted it to happen, the
same thing. People are still saying. You know, it's fan
service to these fans. Oh, that's super predictable. I think
it's a lose lose either way. I think people are
taking it way too seriously. The fact that Johnson got
like death threats is insane. That to me means that
(02:38):
you're not an actual Star Wars fan, because Luke and
Leah and Haunt like they wouldn't want you to be
doing those things right exactly. Well, I guess first you
mhould go around and everyone state if they are on
the I loved it, vote the I didn't like it,
Bote I liked it. But everyone but you guys, you
didn't say it. This is spoilers right crazy right here, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.
(03:02):
If you do not want to know what the funk happened,
to turn it off now. Otherwise, prepare to have the
film ruined. Bloom. You're welcome. I feel like that would
have been okay. I love the part where Samuel L.
Jackson showed up, But okay, so jack, what where do
you fall in terms of this continuum of people who
like or hate the film. I thought it was okay.
(03:25):
I really wanted to love it, and I did not
love it, but not for the reasons that I've heard
most people not loving it. Danny, how about you? I
thought it was okay as well. I enjoyed it. I
mainly like the last forty minutes, like I thought those
were great. I really like that when ship started happening, Yeah, exactly,
and I understand the other parts of it, but it
(03:46):
didn't feel the same to me. I didn't feel the
same as like other Star Wars films to me, which
is okay. I figured when I was leaving the theater
that like a lot of people would love it, and
I didn't realize that so many people would also not. Yeah,
am I'm assuming you've seen it as well. How where
do you fall on this? Yeah? I really liked to, like,
maybe close to loved it when I saw it. There
(04:08):
were definitely like some weird parts, but overall, yeah, I
really liked it. I also saw it like the very
first screening on Thursday night, and I hadn't read the reviews,
so I went in pretty like like I didn't know
what to expect. In terms of of how other people
were we're feeling. So I was pretty surprised to hear
all the hate. I thought, like everyone in my theater
(04:29):
really enjoyed it. I also went to a theater where
they sell wine, so I had a couple of glasses
of red wine while I watched it. So and I
was the trick. I was surprised to also, that's interesting
because I went with somebody who had a couple of
drinks beforehand. I did not drink. The person who had
a couple of drinks really liked it way more than me.
I was actually shocked to not like it as much
(04:50):
as I did because of how glowing the reviews were.
Like we we talked last week about how Metacritic has
it like in eighties six, which you know, rotten tomatoes
can be off because it's like, you know, you're trying
to get everything down to a thumbs up or thumbs down,
but like Metacritic goes into detailed scores for each review,
you would think. I don't know, it was just it
(05:13):
was surprising to me that it wasn't, you know, an
all out win. Yeah. I I'm in the kind of
a boat like the rest of you. Guys, Like, I
didn't hate it, but there are parts that definitely bummed
me out as a Star Wars fan like that, I
just I wasn't enthusiastic about. And I don't know if
we want to go like line by line or things
like that, but I think I'll say a couple of things. Right,
(05:33):
I thought there were really dope parts, and then there
are parts that made me scratch my head that I
was like, is this real? Like why did Luke have
to drink the titty milk? That thing? That was one
thing that I thought was a little They have comedy
stuff in the original Star Wars. Okay, another thing, why
did Laura durn have to have like purple hair? Like
why couldn't you know, Like my complaints aren't really big,
(05:54):
Like I'm not like, oh, I'm so pissed about this
character or whatever. I was just like little things. I'm like,
you know, Laura during his character was interested. And my
favorite part was when she just strayed up Kamakazi herself
at light speed. That was the dopest ship I've ever seen,
like this turn in the film, right, Like yeah, I
was like, oh damn yeah, when she nine eleven at
light speed. That was pretty crazy. But I also think
(06:14):
that was pretty crazy, like there were two things like
that where you were rooting for the person who was
driving a thing into another thing, like nine eleven brand too.
It was like, Yo, that's that's crazy that we flipped
that much. But I thought the scene with Snoke when
Smoke got got uh and the whole like palace guard
(06:37):
scene was one of my favorite scenes in Star Wars
in a long time. I loved the light speed nine
eleven even though uh, somebody pointed out that, like, well,
doesn't that just mean you could have always done that,
Like you could have done that to the Death Star,
you could do that to anything at all times ever
in the history. Yeah, but that's a big But that
ship itself that they were in, that's like one of
(06:58):
the only ships that they have, So that's why it
was big for the rebellion. That's why they didn't want
to get They couldn't forfeit that ship. That meant a
lot to them. It was one of their resources. Have
to add it like a scene a New Hope where
like all the X Wing pilots are talking about like
I don't I don't really want to do that. Maybe
I don't want to don't. Like. A small squadron of
(07:18):
X wings achieved the similar thing too, because they can
also warp, yeah, kill themselves yeah like if if. But
that's the thing that is that the rebellion is so
small that they don't want to lose. They don't Yeah,
they're not going to go into something or at least
their generals aren't going to want them to just kill themselves. Okay,
I like that. So my main issues were everything on
(07:39):
the Island I thought felt really flat, like dramatically, it
was like, Luke come back. No, I'm not going to
come back, Luke please come back. No, I don't want
to come like it was just like sort of a
dead thing where he was just like blocking her at
every like every turn, and I just I don't know
that that whole section felt somewhat dead to me. But
(08:00):
I loved the Daisy and Adam drivers stuff. I thought
that was Yeah, that was dope. Um there was anybody
mad that it felt like we were adding like new
things to the force that we didn't know about till
this movie. That. That was the other thing that bummed
me out is I just felt like by the end,
I was like, oh, so I didn't know what the
force was at all, and maybe that's okay, but it
for some reason that bummed me out that like the
(08:22):
force was just something anyone could have if they just concentrated.
But I don't think that's what it is. But I
think what Luke was saying is that it it's not
just the lightsaber. He was like, this isn't what the
force is, you know, so his whole thing like the
force being within you, it's not within everyone. I think
it's within choice select people. And I'm not like a
huge fucking star wars head. So please don't write me
(08:43):
because I don't care. But about about you want to
correct me? Yeah, yeah, But what I'm saying is that
that's what he meant is like, it's not just in
this thing, and it's not just in those books, and
it's not just tied to these objects. So it's like
a combination of nature nurture, Like it's something you're you
can be worn with, but then you can also like,
well it depends, and I meant that even beyond more
(09:03):
like a philosophical aspect of the physical mechanics of the force, right,
like the projection stuff. So it was like new to
me or that like you could basically die in the
vacuum of space and then kind of like toe truck
yourself that. Yeah, I was kind of cool with La
dying like that. I thought, oh, ship, like that was
just like a real war death. And I thought when
her hands started moving, I thought she was maybe communicating
(09:25):
to Luke or something like Bam, come through, But she
was like, no, I'm coming back in the ship and
I'm still alive. Jam. Was that a thing that we've
seen people do that do with the Force or Danny?
Maybe you know this like what astually projecting yourself into
a hologram across like space? Is that a thing we've
seen before, like a non dead Jedi do I don't
(09:46):
think so. I mean, they've always been kind of like
weird things that have been explained away by the Force.
I feel like I don't think they ever really like
explained an empire. Why, you know, Luke's had that vision
of Darth Vader in the cave. I think, you know,
sometimes they did just kind of pepper and mystical things
and you know, have it be the forest. But I
(10:07):
kinda I kind of liked that they were expanding the
mythology of what the forest would be in this movie.
I like that they were showing us something new. I
mean it was a bit weird at times. That Yeah,
no one mentioned the astral projection thing. The thing that
really got me he did was that Luke is like
the most powerful Jedi. Right we could agree on that
is that not like that right? Sure? But in terms
(10:30):
of what we know as viewers of the film that
like to date, Luke Skywager was the most late Jedi,
and I thought his death could have just been a
little bit cooler, Like I understand like this function it served,
but I felt like he could have done like a
Samurai style thing where he really did roll up and
fight all those a t M six is and just
be like what's good and then maybe died at the
end and still achieved like the like serve as a
(10:51):
distraction for what's left of the rebellion to escape. But
I just thought I felt like I wanted to really
see like Luke just wild out one last time as
a fan, but I guess, but he kind of did
in his projection, you know what I mean. But then
I think it was kind of like an ode back
to his master Yoda and stuff like where it was
you know, this like peaceful death. What he achieved was
(11:13):
that it was like, yeah, he served at this distraction
in this really violent scene and then he kind of
just with the ways. But that's a lot of what
the Jedi is supposed to be. They're supposed to be,
you know, not this violent attack force. They're supposed to
be this like peaceful for sure, But then they're also
Jedis who like valiantly fought in like no win situations
(11:33):
when they have to. I see it as like karate almost.
I feel like that's kind of what they like. That's
not an offensive art, it's a defense. That's what they have,
you know, don't go to the dark side, don't you know,
the whole good verse evil. I feel like it's more
of like Jedi, you only use that like in I
don't know. That's what I they took a lot of
it from. I think originally was that, yeah, you're supposed
(11:54):
to only use it when you have to. I'm sure
someone's gonna write me a whole thesis. Please don't. I've
already had people write me thesis out know, you just
made it work a lot better for me. The in
your description, so J M. That's why I keep asking
you because I know because like I'm looking at as
like a for me the movies, Like I loved it.
It got me into movie making, the idea of like
(12:14):
when I would see see stuff. Yeah, like that's that's
sort of my connection to something. I'm really interested in
the mechanics of the film, which is why I'm like
kind of hyper focused on those things because rather than
like the plot things obviously, like I can forgive most
of those things, but there were things like the casino
world that I felt like it was a little odd
and like the wardrobe felt really shitty to me, Like
the whole idea of Star Wars, like we're in places
(12:36):
we've never seen, cultures that have never existed, but they
are all these like touchstones to Earth culture, like with tuxedos,
like champagne drinking kind of thing that I was like, whatever,
I guess, But again, these are like all minor things.
But it wasn't as bad as like the space fifties
diner and whatever that was right right right, go to
(12:56):
like the Seinfeld diner. Yeah, I'll just say one more thing.
I loved snoke, Like I just think it should always
be a rule that if you have like a really
main like boss bad guy, Uh, their death should be
super dramatic and violent, and like that death was so
dope when they just like fucking chopped him in half,
like he like fell apart into pieces, that was super sweet. Uh.
(13:17):
And then the thing I think my main issue, and
this was also my issue with Force Awakens, is I
just thought the Han solo part and Force Awakens and
Luke Skywalker parts in this felt dead to me. And
I feel like the movies will be better going forward
without the old timey characters who like don't want to
be there kind of being there and being like dragged through.
(13:39):
But so jam you you had a read on the
symbolism of Luke that I thought was interesting. If you
look back at kind of the history of Star Wars,
it really seems like in the original movies, Luke was
kind of this author surrogate for George Lucas, like his
name is practically the same as George Lucas his last name,
(14:00):
and also like people have kind of inferred that the
Darth Vader stuff may have been based on some personal
stuff with his dad, who wanted George Lucas to like
take over the family office supply business, which is less
dramatic than ruling the galaxy, but you know, you can
see the emotions behind it, right, So I always kind
of saw these new movies as trying to kind of
(14:23):
continue that, uh, that metaphor of of Luke Skywalker as
George Lucas. Like I very much read The Force Awakens
as about George Lucas, kind of almost like a reconciliation
with George Lucas after he made the Prequels. And you know,
because at the beginning Force Awakens, we learned Luke Skywalker
did something shitty, he created like the new Space Hitler,
(14:45):
and he's off an exile. So and George, this is
the first Star Wars movie without George Lucas, and it's
a movie where like Luke is an actual like absence
in the center of the movie. That that's interesting, right. Yeah.
I even thought that like the name the First Order
was like a reference to the prequels, because the first
(15:05):
order would be like one to three. But maybe that's
just a tinfoil had kind of thing. But anyway, so
I guess that was kind of in the back of
my mind when I was watching this, and like, you know,
that moment that ended the last movie that leads into
this one where Raised handing him the lightsaber seemed like
this kind of olive branch to to George Lucas that,
(15:26):
you know, saying, you know, we love this thing. This
is a love letter to you and your original movies.
And uh, like in real life, George Lucas crapped on
the new movie. He you know, he said it was
to retro. He called Disney White Slavers for some reason. Uh,
he thought that would be a good thing to say.
But so I guess, like in that moment where like
(15:46):
Luke Skywalker like tosses the lightsaber over his shoulder, I've
seen a lot of people online complaining about that, but
I guess based on the context of of Luke as
sort of this Lucas surrogate, I like that all made
sense to me, and him being a cranky, reclusive old
man made sense to me. Huh, yeah, it doesn't make
it any to watch. I'm like, I don't need the
(16:08):
subtext of George Lucas's relationship to the film weaved into
this film. But yeah, but it does seem like but
I thought it was funny. The whole throwing the lights
ober away is because that's not what it is expected.
And it was like this moment that was built up
for years. We were waiting to hear Luke Skywalker talk
again because the last time we heard him talk was
decades ago, and that this huge pivotal moment we've been
(16:30):
waiting Force handed to him and he just tosses it.
Like to me, that's a funny thing to like, just
like this huge moment that fans had built up, and
it's like, yeah, what you know whatever, Like I love
that it was unexpected, and I what I really hate
that fans are reacting is that they should A lot
of them should on Force Awakens. They said it was
too predictable. It's too it was nothing new with Abram's
being there, and now they have this new film and
(16:51):
now it's too different, and now they're excited to have
Abram's back again. It's like, what you can I was
fine with the Force Awakens. I didnt have nearly as
many complaints as I did about this, but again, they
were more like stylistic things. And also there's just some
like plot ship but that's what that's what Star Wars
films are like. Like I wanted Captain FAsMA to still
be around. I know that was a wasted yeah, because
(17:15):
in Fort's like, oh, this is gonna be She's gonna
come back, and they have her moment. No she didn't,
but do you also remember she's like standing in front
of Finn and like they're about to get killed. Then
Laura Dern just blows a spot up, carves a ship
in half, and then suddenly Fasm emerges from the smoke
like from another like bay door. I was like, weren't
you just standing there before all this ship went down?
(17:35):
They were like these things like that. I don't know. Yeah,
And I feel like the other moment that was like that,
that was like the opposite of fan service. He was
when they revealed who raised parents are? That that was
probably one of my favorite moments. Like that whole scene
just ruled, Like they did a great job with that scene.
That reveal was cool. Adam Driver was so good in
that moment, so was she. Yeah. I thought that was great.
(17:57):
I'm definitely gonna go see the next one on an
opening weekend. Like you know, who else is all of
the fans that are complaining Everyone is still always going
to see these movies no matter what. Yeah, and again,
like it was funny because as I watched it, I
started bumming myself out because I was like, man, like
is this movie bad? Like am I not liking this?
And I was in my own head a lot of
the time. I need to watch this. I'm gonna watch
(18:19):
it again just to make sure that, like my complaints
are still valid, especially after this conversation, because there were
things that I wanted to discuss with other They're like
well meaning, well thought people who watched the films, and
we'll see. But the other thing, I don't know if
we want. I just want to also bring up we
got another Star Wars film coming on like five months anyway,
So we a movie that has not released a trail
(18:39):
anything that's scary. That is scary, man, because they usually
tease the ship nine years out right. Well, it'll also
be interesting to see like what the tone of that is,
because you know, Force Awakens was so steeped in nostalgia
and this one like just constantly felt like almost a
repudiation of nostalgia, Like it was all about getting rid
of the the things that we're comforting are familiar and
(19:02):
taking the narrative in different directions. So I don't know,
it'll be interesting to see if, like the Han solo
movie seems kind of predicated on the idea of just
here's a bunch of people you already know. I can't
wait for one of these movies that's moving forward in
time that is just Daisy Ridley, John Boyega and Adam
Driver like anchoring the thing. I think that's yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
(19:24):
she's good practicing for forms. I don't know. I didn't
like her kiss and Die thing that they reminded of
marrying Coatyard in that Batman film, where she was like,
I'm gonna say this thing and then she passed out.
She used the last of her energy to tell him
that he meant. Those Star Wars story films, those side
films like Rogue one and stuff, they always have like
a whole other vibe. They're always like, this is not
(19:46):
Star Wars. This is a Star Wars story. And it
seems like Paul Bettany like the quote that keeps him
and I was like, this is a gangster film. Yeah,
So I'm feeling this is not gonna be anything like
I mean, I'm I'm here for it. I'm here for
all of them. Baby Driver. All cuts all cut to
(20:07):
space pop. Oh God, could you imagine it's all it's
all the music from the you know, all right, we're
gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back, and
we're back jam. Anything we didn't get to that you
(20:28):
wanted to call out as particularly liking or just looking,
I would just say, like to further that Luke lucas
metaphor like the ending, as kind of wacky as the
astral projection thing was, I think it ties into all
of these themes we've been talking about in terms of,
you know, like Luke creates a projection which is you know,
like a movie, and in the end, it's not about
(20:49):
Luke so much as a it's about he inspired like
future generations represented by whoever that little kid was at
the end, who was literally like playing with a Star
Wars action figure at the end. So I think it
was kind of like, as much as people aren't digging
it in certain ways, like I think it is kind
of setting up a movie that we might like based
(21:10):
on what we've been saying, Like is setting up a
movie where like the heroes are going to be these
new characters that we all like, and less about trying
to recapture something that was done thirty years ago. So
I think it's maybe a more interesting movie than it
is like a successful movie or a fun movie to watch.
I still thought it was really interesting. I'll have to
see it again. That that metaphor definitely makes me like
(21:31):
it more. Danny or analysis of it makes me like
it more. Um, anything we didn't get to that you
wanted to bring up, Yeah, possibly the people that are like,
keep politics out of this film should go back and
watch the original films. Same with the people that say
that about superhero films, like keep politics out of Marvel
and d C. Maybe you should read a comic book,
(21:52):
um and see where that comes from. Because a lot
of times filmmakers, screenwriters and writers are influenced by current
events and they put that in the film. And that
is also uh, Star Wars. I don't know if you're like, oh,
what is the empire representative? You know, it's just the
mean people in space. So maybe get over it and
understand that politics. There is going to be political commentary
(22:12):
and most of the things that you watch. Okay, that
inspires most of the filmmakers that you love, and you
need to get over it. And if you want to
be a filmmaker yourself, because that's a lot of the fans,
Like I look at their thing when they write hate
shipped to people and would be like want to be filmmaker,
you know, and they have like every single movie review
YouTube channel and their thing. Maybe you should consider that
as well, that sometimes current events and political events that
(22:35):
affect the entire nation and world uh influence or yeah,
and influence the filmmakers that you love and and uh
if it makes you uncomfortable, so it might have done
its job. And also it's a very specific political choice
that most movies for the first hundred years of cinema
were like predominantly disproportionately and unrepresentatively like starring white men.
(23:00):
It's like that's not how the actual world looks. So
that's actually more of a political decision than having like
a representative cast um miles anything you wanted to bring
up before. I mean, I think to that point of
like the people were like, oh, the social justice words
should find like whatever. I don't really don't give a ship.
The one thing that I will say is like them
like literally describing the military industrial complex like literally, I
(23:24):
was kind of like, like you could do that in
nuanced way and still get the point across. But I
just felt that was like it just felt like actually
literal like with like fat cats, like basically getting like
rich off the whole thing. Like I'm totally down with
spreading the word about this whole thing, but I just
felt like some of this stuff felt like like lazy, right,
(23:44):
And not even that the message was wrong. It's just like,
but I guess that's how you communicate to younger people
who don't who they're trying to also inoculate with these
sort of things that like this is people make money
off conflict. But I think not only that, I think
it was the fact that it was conflicted with them
that oh they're also supplying you, right, And I think
that that's internally like the good verse evil things, and
(24:04):
especially even US as like a nation is like, oh, well,
we consider ourselves good, but then it's like, oh, we're
doing these bad things too. So I think that that's yeah,
I get what you're saying. That it wasn't even the
message just like the president, you're like, okay, do we
need the power points of it? Everyone, it's like, this
is the military that's a complex Eisenhower was warning everyone about. Well,
I think it also kind of hooked into like the
theme of no one's you know, all good and no
(24:26):
one's all bad, right, kind of it kind of disregarded
like the light side and dark side of the Force
in a way, which is maybe also white people are
kind of unhappy, but I kind of like that. Yeah,
my my mind cannot take that sort of complexity. All right,
Thanks everybody for for joining us for Star Wars minute
(24:46):
or half hour, and we'll be back the next time
there's a Star Wars movie out. Bye bye the title
couple to put
Hello the Internet, and welcome to this special holiday edition
of the Daily Zeitgeys, in which we are going to
talk about Star Wars, Star Wars um the Last Jedi uh,
and we have a couple of special guests. We have
Danny Fernandez. I am here, I'm enjoying the Star War talk.
(00:24):
There will be no better guests, and we're thrilled to
be joined by our writer J M McNab. Hey, guys,
thanks for having me. Hey all the way from the
Great White North. I think I wanted to just preface
this conversation by saying that I have heard many takes
on this movie, uh since it came out, and we
(00:46):
mentioned this on last week's episode. Star Wars is so
close to people that I don't think everybody has the
same reaction. Like, I think it's uniquely divisive, and I
think people's reactions and the things they focus on, like,
I've heard a bunch of people who liked it the
same amount as me, but who disliked completely different things
(01:09):
about it than me. I've heard people who loved the
things I hated, hated the things I loved. It all
depends on your relationship to Star Wars, and you know,
everybody has grown up with Star Wars, so it's but
some people definitely got way crazier than other too, like
real crazy Danny, How what what? What's your relationships Star Wars?
(01:31):
Like you know, I grew up what I didn't see
it originally in theaters, which apparently some people on the
internet think that that's got awful because I have heard no.
When Force Awakens came out, I had a guy that
was like, Star Wars is mind, Like I saw it
in theaters before you were born. I'm like, okay, why
don't you write Daisy Ridley and John Boyega then too,
because they also didn't see it in theaters. Fans are
(01:54):
so You're right, fans are so possessive of it, and
it's like you gotta let it's not entirely you. You
don't get to claim the whole fandom for yourself. I
think a lot of people what I've been seeing, like
like you said, like online, is that people had these
theories about what was going to happen when it didn't happen.
If everything that you wanted to happen happened, you would
have said it was just like huge fan service. You know,
(02:18):
Oh yeah, this was predictable is another thing. And then
if nothing happened that you wanted it to happen, the
same thing. People are still saying. You know, it's fan
service to these fans. Oh, that's super predictable. I think
it's a lose lose either way. I think people are
taking it way too seriously. The fact that Johnson got
like death threats is insane. That to me means that
(02:38):
you're not an actual Star Wars fan, because Luke and
Leah and Haunt like they wouldn't want you to be
doing those things right exactly. Well, I guess first you
mhould go around and everyone state if they are on
the I loved it, vote the I didn't like it,
Bote I liked it. But everyone but you guys, you
didn't say it. This is spoilers right crazy right here, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.
(03:02):
If you do not want to know what the funk happened,
to turn it off now. Otherwise, prepare to have the
film ruined. Bloom. You're welcome. I feel like that would
have been okay. I love the part where Samuel L.
Jackson showed up, But okay, so jack, what where do
you fall in terms of this continuum of people who
like or hate the film. I thought it was okay.
(03:25):
I really wanted to love it, and I did not
love it, but not for the reasons that I've heard
most people not loving it. Danny, how about you? I
thought it was okay as well. I enjoyed it. I
mainly like the last forty minutes, like I thought those
were great. I really like that when ship started happening, Yeah, exactly,
and I understand the other parts of it, but it
(03:46):
didn't feel the same to me. I didn't feel the
same as like other Star Wars films to me, which
is okay. I figured when I was leaving the theater
that like a lot of people would love it, and
I didn't realize that so many people would also not. Yeah,
am I'm assuming you've seen it as well. How where
do you fall on this? Yeah? I really liked to, like,
maybe close to loved it when I saw it. There
(04:08):
were definitely like some weird parts, but overall, yeah, I
really liked it. I also saw it like the very
first screening on Thursday night, and I hadn't read the reviews,
so I went in pretty like like I didn't know
what to expect. In terms of of how other people
were we're feeling. So I was pretty surprised to hear
all the hate. I thought, like everyone in my theater
(04:29):
really enjoyed it. I also went to a theater where
they sell wine, so I had a couple of glasses
of red wine while I watched it. So and I
was the trick. I was surprised to also, that's interesting
because I went with somebody who had a couple of
drinks beforehand. I did not drink. The person who had
a couple of drinks really liked it way more than me.
I was actually shocked to not like it as much
(04:50):
as I did because of how glowing the reviews were.
Like we we talked last week about how Metacritic has
it like in eighties six, which you know, rotten tomatoes
can be off because it's like, you know, you're trying
to get everything down to a thumbs up or thumbs down,
but like Metacritic goes into detailed scores for each review,
you would think. I don't know, it was just it
(05:13):
was surprising to me that it wasn't, you know, an
all out win. Yeah. I I'm in the kind of
a boat like the rest of you. Guys, Like, I
didn't hate it, but there are parts that definitely bummed
me out as a Star Wars fan like that, I
just I wasn't enthusiastic about. And I don't know if
we want to go like line by line or things
like that, but I think I'll say a couple of things. Right,
(05:33):
I thought there were really dope parts, and then there
are parts that made me scratch my head that I
was like, is this real? Like why did Luke have
to drink the titty milk? That thing? That was one
thing that I thought was a little They have comedy
stuff in the original Star Wars. Okay, another thing, why
did Laura durn have to have like purple hair? Like
why couldn't you know, Like my complaints aren't really big,
(05:54):
Like I'm not like, oh, I'm so pissed about this
character or whatever. I was just like little things. I'm like,
you know, Laura during his character was interested. And my
favorite part was when she just strayed up Kamakazi herself
at light speed. That was the dopest ship I've ever seen,
like this turn in the film, right, Like yeah, I
was like, oh damn yeah, when she nine eleven at
light speed. That was pretty crazy. But I also think
(06:14):
that was pretty crazy, like there were two things like
that where you were rooting for the person who was
driving a thing into another thing, like nine eleven brand too.
It was like, Yo, that's that's crazy that we flipped
that much. But I thought the scene with Snoke when
Smoke got got uh and the whole like palace guard
(06:37):
scene was one of my favorite scenes in Star Wars
in a long time. I loved the light speed nine
eleven even though uh, somebody pointed out that, like, well,
doesn't that just mean you could have always done that,
Like you could have done that to the Death Star,
you could do that to anything at all times ever
in the history. Yeah, but that's a big But that
ship itself that they were in, that's like one of
(06:58):
the only ships that they have, So that's why it
was big for the rebellion. That's why they didn't want
to get They couldn't forfeit that ship. That meant a
lot to them. It was one of their resources. Have
to add it like a scene a New Hope where
like all the X Wing pilots are talking about like
I don't I don't really want to do that. Maybe
I don't want to don't. Like. A small squadron of
(07:18):
X wings achieved the similar thing too, because they can
also warp, yeah, kill themselves yeah like if if. But
that's the thing that is that the rebellion is so
small that they don't want to lose. They don't Yeah,
they're not going to go into something or at least
their generals aren't going to want them to just kill themselves. Okay,
I like that. So my main issues were everything on
(07:39):
the Island I thought felt really flat, like dramatically, it
was like, Luke come back. No, I'm not going to
come back, Luke please come back. No, I don't want
to come like it was just like sort of a
dead thing where he was just like blocking her at
every like every turn, and I just I don't know
that that whole section felt somewhat dead to me. But
(08:00):
I loved the Daisy and Adam drivers stuff. I thought
that was Yeah, that was dope. Um there was anybody
mad that it felt like we were adding like new
things to the force that we didn't know about till
this movie. That. That was the other thing that bummed
me out is I just felt like by the end,
I was like, oh, so I didn't know what the
force was at all, and maybe that's okay, but it
for some reason that bummed me out that like the
(08:22):
force was just something anyone could have if they just concentrated.
But I don't think that's what it is. But I
think what Luke was saying is that it it's not
just the lightsaber. He was like, this isn't what the
force is, you know, so his whole thing like the
force being within you, it's not within everyone. I think
it's within choice select people. And I'm not like a
huge fucking star wars head. So please don't write me
(08:43):
because I don't care. But about about you want to
correct me? Yeah, yeah, But what I'm saying is that
that's what he meant is like, it's not just in
this thing, and it's not just in those books, and
it's not just tied to these objects. So it's like
a combination of nature nurture, Like it's something you're you
can be worn with, but then you can also like,
well it depends, and I meant that even beyond more
(09:03):
like a philosophical aspect of the physical mechanics of the force, right,
like the projection stuff. So it was like new to
me or that like you could basically die in the
vacuum of space and then kind of like toe truck
yourself that. Yeah, I was kind of cool with La
dying like that. I thought, oh, ship, like that was
just like a real war death. And I thought when
her hands started moving, I thought she was maybe communicating
(09:25):
to Luke or something like Bam, come through, But she
was like, no, I'm coming back in the ship and
I'm still alive. Jam. Was that a thing that we've
seen people do that do with the Force or Danny?
Maybe you know this like what astually projecting yourself into
a hologram across like space? Is that a thing we've
seen before, like a non dead Jedi do I don't
(09:46):
think so. I mean, they've always been kind of like
weird things that have been explained away by the Force.
I feel like I don't think they ever really like
explained an empire. Why, you know, Luke's had that vision
of Darth Vader in the cave. I think, you know,
sometimes they did just kind of pepper and mystical things
and you know, have it be the forest. But I
(10:07):
kinda I kind of liked that they were expanding the
mythology of what the forest would be in this movie.
I like that they were showing us something new. I
mean it was a bit weird at times. That Yeah,
no one mentioned the astral projection thing. The thing that
really got me he did was that Luke is like
the most powerful Jedi. Right we could agree on that
is that not like that right? Sure? But in terms
(10:30):
of what we know as viewers of the film that
like to date, Luke Skywager was the most late Jedi,
and I thought his death could have just been a
little bit cooler, Like I understand like this function it served,
but I felt like he could have done like a
Samurai style thing where he really did roll up and
fight all those a t M six is and just
be like what's good and then maybe died at the
end and still achieved like the like serve as a
(10:51):
distraction for what's left of the rebellion to escape. But
I just thought I felt like I wanted to really
see like Luke just wild out one last time as
a fan, but I guess, but he kind of did
in his projection, you know what I mean. But then
I think it was kind of like an ode back
to his master Yoda and stuff like where it was
you know, this like peaceful death. What he achieved was
(11:13):
that it was like, yeah, he served at this distraction
in this really violent scene and then he kind of
just with the ways. But that's a lot of what
the Jedi is supposed to be. They're supposed to be,
you know, not this violent attack force. They're supposed to
be this like peaceful for sure, But then they're also
Jedis who like valiantly fought in like no win situations
(11:33):
when they have to. I see it as like karate almost.
I feel like that's kind of what they like. That's
not an offensive art, it's a defense. That's what they have,
you know, don't go to the dark side, don't you know,
the whole good verse evil. I feel like it's more
of like Jedi, you only use that like in I
don't know. That's what I they took a lot of
it from. I think originally was that, yeah, you're supposed
(11:54):
to only use it when you have to. I'm sure
someone's gonna write me a whole thesis. Please don't. I've
already had people write me thesis out know, you just
made it work a lot better for me. The in
your description, so J M. That's why I keep asking
you because I know because like I'm looking at as
like a for me the movies, Like I loved it.
It got me into movie making, the idea of like
(12:14):
when I would see see stuff. Yeah, like that's that's
sort of my connection to something. I'm really interested in
the mechanics of the film, which is why I'm like
kind of hyper focused on those things because rather than
like the plot things obviously, like I can forgive most
of those things, but there were things like the casino
world that I felt like it was a little odd
and like the wardrobe felt really shitty to me, Like
the whole idea of Star Wars, like we're in places
(12:36):
we've never seen, cultures that have never existed, but they
are all these like touchstones to Earth culture, like with tuxedos,
like champagne drinking kind of thing that I was like, whatever,
I guess, But again, these are like all minor things.
But it wasn't as bad as like the space fifties
diner and whatever that was right right right, go to
(12:56):
like the Seinfeld diner. Yeah, I'll just say one more thing.
I loved snoke, Like I just think it should always
be a rule that if you have like a really
main like boss bad guy, Uh, their death should be
super dramatic and violent, and like that death was so
dope when they just like fucking chopped him in half,
like he like fell apart into pieces, that was super sweet. Uh.
(13:17):
And then the thing I think my main issue, and
this was also my issue with Force Awakens, is I
just thought the Han solo part and Force Awakens and
Luke Skywalker parts in this felt dead to me. And
I feel like the movies will be better going forward
without the old timey characters who like don't want to
be there kind of being there and being like dragged through.
(13:39):
But so jam you you had a read on the
symbolism of Luke that I thought was interesting. If you
look back at kind of the history of Star Wars,
it really seems like in the original movies, Luke was
kind of this author surrogate for George Lucas, like his
name is practically the same as George Lucas his last name,
(14:00):
and also like people have kind of inferred that the
Darth Vader stuff may have been based on some personal
stuff with his dad, who wanted George Lucas to like
take over the family office supply business, which is less
dramatic than ruling the galaxy, but you know, you can
see the emotions behind it, right, So I always kind
of saw these new movies as trying to kind of
(14:23):
continue that, uh, that metaphor of of Luke Skywalker as
George Lucas. Like I very much read The Force Awakens
as about George Lucas, kind of almost like a reconciliation
with George Lucas after he made the Prequels. And you know,
because at the beginning Force Awakens, we learned Luke Skywalker
did something shitty, he created like the new Space Hitler,
(14:45):
and he's off an exile. So and George, this is
the first Star Wars movie without George Lucas, and it's
a movie where like Luke is an actual like absence
in the center of the movie. That that's interesting, right. Yeah.
I even thought that like the name the First Order
was like a reference to the prequels, because the first
(15:05):
order would be like one to three. But maybe that's
just a tinfoil had kind of thing. But anyway, so
I guess that was kind of in the back of
my mind when I was watching this, and like, you know,
that moment that ended the last movie that leads into
this one where Raised handing him the lightsaber seemed like
this kind of olive branch to to George Lucas that,
(15:26):
you know, saying, you know, we love this thing. This
is a love letter to you and your original movies.
And uh, like in real life, George Lucas crapped on
the new movie. He you know, he said it was
to retro. He called Disney White Slavers for some reason. Uh,
he thought that would be a good thing to say.
But so I guess, like in that moment where like
(15:46):
Luke Skywalker like tosses the lightsaber over his shoulder, I've
seen a lot of people online complaining about that, but
I guess based on the context of of Luke as
sort of this Lucas surrogate, I like that all made
sense to me, and him being a cranky, reclusive old
man made sense to me. Huh, yeah, it doesn't make
it any to watch. I'm like, I don't need the
(16:08):
subtext of George Lucas's relationship to the film weaved into
this film. But yeah, but it does seem like but
I thought it was funny. The whole throwing the lights
ober away is because that's not what it is expected.
And it was like this moment that was built up
for years. We were waiting to hear Luke Skywalker talk
again because the last time we heard him talk was
decades ago, and that this huge pivotal moment we've been
(16:30):
waiting Force handed to him and he just tosses it.
Like to me, that's a funny thing to like, just
like this huge moment that fans had built up, and
it's like, yeah, what you know whatever, Like I love
that it was unexpected, and I what I really hate
that fans are reacting is that they should A lot
of them should on Force Awakens. They said it was
too predictable. It's too it was nothing new with Abram's
being there, and now they have this new film and
(16:51):
now it's too different, and now they're excited to have
Abram's back again. It's like, what you can I was
fine with the Force Awakens. I didnt have nearly as
many complaints as I did about this, but again, they
were more like stylistic things. And also there's just some
like plot ship but that's what that's what Star Wars
films are like. Like I wanted Captain FAsMA to still
be around. I know that was a wasted yeah, because
(17:15):
in Fort's like, oh, this is gonna be She's gonna
come back, and they have her moment. No she didn't,
but do you also remember she's like standing in front
of Finn and like they're about to get killed. Then
Laura Dern just blows a spot up, carves a ship
in half, and then suddenly Fasm emerges from the smoke
like from another like bay door. I was like, weren't
you just standing there before all this ship went down?
(17:35):
They were like these things like that. I don't know. Yeah,
And I feel like the other moment that was like that,
that was like the opposite of fan service. He was
when they revealed who raised parents are? That that was
probably one of my favorite moments. Like that whole scene
just ruled, Like they did a great job with that scene.
That reveal was cool. Adam Driver was so good in
that moment, so was she. Yeah. I thought that was great.
(17:57):
I'm definitely gonna go see the next one on an
opening weekend. Like you know, who else is all of
the fans that are complaining Everyone is still always going
to see these movies no matter what. Yeah, and again,
like it was funny because as I watched it, I
started bumming myself out because I was like, man, like
is this movie bad? Like am I not liking this?
And I was in my own head a lot of
the time. I need to watch this. I'm gonna watch
(18:19):
it again just to make sure that, like my complaints
are still valid, especially after this conversation, because there were
things that I wanted to discuss with other They're like
well meaning, well thought people who watched the films, and
we'll see. But the other thing, I don't know if
we want. I just want to also bring up we
got another Star Wars film coming on like five months anyway,
So we a movie that has not released a trail
(18:39):
anything that's scary. That is scary, man, because they usually
tease the ship nine years out right. Well, it'll also
be interesting to see like what the tone of that is,
because you know, Force Awakens was so steeped in nostalgia
and this one like just constantly felt like almost a
repudiation of nostalgia, Like it was all about getting rid
of the the things that we're comforting are familiar and
(19:02):
taking the narrative in different directions. So I don't know,
it'll be interesting to see if, like the Han solo
movie seems kind of predicated on the idea of just
here's a bunch of people you already know. I can't
wait for one of these movies that's moving forward in
time that is just Daisy Ridley, John Boyega and Adam
Driver like anchoring the thing. I think that's yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
(19:24):
she's good practicing for forms. I don't know. I didn't
like her kiss and Die thing that they reminded of
marrying Coatyard in that Batman film, where she was like,
I'm gonna say this thing and then she passed out.
She used the last of her energy to tell him
that he meant. Those Star Wars story films, those side
films like Rogue one and stuff, they always have like
a whole other vibe. They're always like, this is not
(19:46):
Star Wars. This is a Star Wars story. And it
seems like Paul Bettany like the quote that keeps him
and I was like, this is a gangster film. Yeah,
So I'm feeling this is not gonna be anything like
I mean, I'm I'm here for it. I'm here for
all of them. Baby Driver. All cuts all cut to
(20:07):
space pop. Oh God, could you imagine it's all it's
all the music from the you know, all right, we're
gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back, and
we're back jam. Anything we didn't get to that you
(20:28):
wanted to call out as particularly liking or just looking,
I would just say, like to further that Luke lucas
metaphor like the ending, as kind of wacky as the
astral projection thing was, I think it ties into all
of these themes we've been talking about in terms of,
you know, like Luke creates a projection which is you know,
like a movie, and in the end, it's not about
(20:49):
Luke so much as a it's about he inspired like
future generations represented by whoever that little kid was at
the end, who was literally like playing with a Star
Wars action figure at the end. So I think it
was kind of like, as much as people aren't digging
it in certain ways, like I think it is kind
of setting up a movie that we might like based
(21:10):
on what we've been saying, Like is setting up a
movie where like the heroes are going to be these
new characters that we all like, and less about trying
to recapture something that was done thirty years ago. So
I think it's maybe a more interesting movie than it
is like a successful movie or a fun movie to watch.
I still thought it was really interesting. I'll have to
see it again. That that metaphor definitely makes me like
(21:31):
it more. Danny or analysis of it makes me like
it more. Um, anything we didn't get to that you
wanted to bring up, Yeah, possibly the people that are like,
keep politics out of this film should go back and
watch the original films. Same with the people that say
that about superhero films, like keep politics out of Marvel
and d C. Maybe you should read a comic book,
(21:52):
um and see where that comes from. Because a lot
of times filmmakers, screenwriters and writers are influenced by current
events and they put that in the film. And that
is also uh, Star Wars. I don't know if you're like, oh,
what is the empire representative? You know, it's just the
mean people in space. So maybe get over it and
understand that politics. There is going to be political commentary
(22:12):
and most of the things that you watch. Okay, that
inspires most of the filmmakers that you love, and you
need to get over it. And if you want to
be a filmmaker yourself, because that's a lot of the fans,
Like I look at their thing when they write hate
shipped to people and would be like want to be filmmaker,
you know, and they have like every single movie review
YouTube channel and their thing. Maybe you should consider that
as well, that sometimes current events and political events that
(22:35):
affect the entire nation and world uh influence or yeah,
and influence the filmmakers that you love and and uh
if it makes you uncomfortable, so it might have done
its job. And also it's a very specific political choice
that most movies for the first hundred years of cinema
were like predominantly disproportionately and unrepresentatively like starring white men.
(23:00):
It's like that's not how the actual world looks. So
that's actually more of a political decision than having like
a representative cast um miles anything you wanted to bring
up before. I mean, I think to that point of
like the people were like, oh, the social justice words
should find like whatever. I don't really don't give a ship.
The one thing that I will say is like them
like literally describing the military industrial complex like literally, I
(23:24):
was kind of like, like you could do that in
nuanced way and still get the point across. But I
just felt that was like it just felt like actually
literal like with like fat cats, like basically getting like
rich off the whole thing. Like I'm totally down with
spreading the word about this whole thing, but I just
felt like some of this stuff felt like like lazy, right,
(23:44):
And not even that the message was wrong. It's just like,
but I guess that's how you communicate to younger people
who don't who they're trying to also inoculate with these
sort of things that like this is people make money
off conflict. But I think not only that, I think
it was the fact that it was conflicted with them
that oh they're also supplying you, right, And I think
that that's internally like the good verse evil things, and
(24:04):
especially even US as like a nation is like, oh, well,
we consider ourselves good, but then it's like, oh, we're
doing these bad things too. So I think that that's yeah,
I get what you're saying. That it wasn't even the
message just like the president, you're like, okay, do we
need the power points of it? Everyone, it's like, this
is the military that's a complex Eisenhower was warning everyone about. Well,
I think it also kind of hooked into like the
theme of no one's you know, all good and no
(24:26):
one's all bad, right, kind of it kind of disregarded
like the light side and dark side of the Force
in a way, which is maybe also white people are
kind of unhappy, but I kind of like that. Yeah,
my my mind cannot take that sort of complexity. All right,
Thanks everybody for for joining us for Star Wars minute
(24:46):
or half hour, and we'll be back the next time
there's a Star Wars movie out. Bye bye the title
couple to put
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