May 24, 2024 • 41 mins
Enjoy this debut show of Beyond Contact as Captain Ron is joined by a name very familiar in the UFO community.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost Dam
Paranormal podcast network. We offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for episode one of
Beyond Contact.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
What's Captain Wrong?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:43):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today
I'll be speaking with Paul Heinek. Paul is an incredible
guy and we could go down any of one hundred
paths with Paul, from being a professor to working on
huge movies, to radical life extension therapy, cryptocurrency, member of mensa,
on and on and on on top of everything else.
He's a hell of a great guy. But for our purposes,
(01:41):
we're going to keep it to his extensive knowledge regarding
UFOs and his work in the UFO community. How are
you doing today, brother, excellent ron, Happy to be here.
I really appreciate it. We're kicking the show off. Let
me just start out, just briefly, if you would, about
growing up in the j allen Heineck household, where the
subject of UFOs was a normal thing for you at
the dinner table, unlike the rest of us.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Yeah, you know, however you grow up is normal to
you until you look back at it over time, whether
it was good or bad. And our household was great.
I was very lucky. I don't know, as you know,
life without UFOs. We had flying Saucer ornaments on the
Christmastery and Travis Walton over for dinner, so it was
it was always present. And the one thing I like
(02:24):
to say is that my father, you know, UFOs were
kind of a side hustle late in life for him.
He was at his core an astronomer, and that's really
how we saw him as a professor and astronomer who
happened to be getting more and more interested in flying
saucers and UFOs and abductions later on. But it was
fascinating because he really inculcated in all five of his
(02:48):
children a love of science and the scientific method, and
of being healthily skeptical but open to the sort of
mysteries lying at the fringes of the known universe.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, I think that's exactly what I want to get
to that. I think it's well known that your dad,
as a scientist, came into this world as a hard
skeptic and debunker of sorts. However, through the years of
looking at the subject, he seemed to have morphed into, basically,
to be honest, exactly what my position today is, which
is there is enough here in the data to warrant
(03:22):
more scientific investigation. So how would you describe that arc
of him changing his viewpoint on this topic.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Yeah, I think you said exactly the way I see it.
You know, a funny thing happened on the way to
his debunking parade that the sort of annoying way of
the accumulated data made him feel just like you said,
that it merited more study. He didn't become a believer,
because that's not really a word that scientists traffic. And
but over time, this annoying phenomena just kept gnawing at
(03:53):
him and pulling on his coattails and made him realize that, yeah,
something is happening here. That doesn't mean, as you know, Ron,
that it's necessarily extraterrestrial or any other particular theory, but
that there is something here which he and a Jacques
Vallet often called meta terrestrial, and I think meaning that
(04:13):
there's something or some things that come from beyond our
current understanding of our terrestrial technology.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did he have a position regarding what he thought the
phenomenon might be, like was he more in the nuts
and bolt spacecraft across distance, or was he more in
the inner dimensional camp or or was it something else?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Even Yeah, and again you framed that really well, because
he was very comfortable as a scientist saying, hey, the
data points to there being a bona fide phenomena here,
but the origin or source of it is beyond really
the knowledge base of a scientist. So he would theorize
that the extraterrestrial hypothesis could well be part of it.
(04:54):
But as Jacques once said, if that's all it turns
out to be, it'll be really disappointing. One of the
things that my father would say is if you liken
the visible universe to the size of the continent US,
Earth is less than a speck of dust in Kansas.
So even though we've been beaming out episodes of I
(05:14):
Love Lucy Low these many decades, we're so small and
insignificant in the cosmic scale that just finding us is
non trivial. And then if they're getting in a spaceship
and enduring the rigors of solar radiation, etc. And coming
all this way, why wouldn't they be a little bit
(05:35):
more overt Okay, maybe it's the prime directive, and maybe
they're manipulating and cross breeding, but it didn't really seem
to make a lot of sense. So he and Jacques
and many others lean towards the interdimensional theory, which I
find to be very compelling, because if it's another dimension,
they're kind of here adjacent and may in some way
(05:56):
be related to us, which would explain how they know
about us and why they would care.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, it's interesting you said. The way you phrased that.
It reminded me immediately of the jungle theory. Which is
you have two scientists walking through the jungle in Africa
and they come across a giant ant hill and there's
millions of ants on there, and they pick out ten
of them and they put them in a jar. They
may even put a little number on their back or
a tag or some sort of identifying thing, and they
(06:22):
put them back and the rest of the ants are
completely unaware that we were even there. And these ants
are tagged and marked and we track them. You know,
it could be something is similar to that where we
can't even understand that plane, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
That's really a good way to put it. You know,
if entities are coming here from another time, another planet,
another dimension, they likely have technological capabilities so far beyond
ours as to we would consider that to be magic,
and so they could blink in and out and do
what they want. The interdimensional theory to me, also kind
(06:59):
of jibes with some of the reports of sightings of
the crafts that seem to do things that defy our
laws of physics, or like my father would call the
cheshire Cat phenomena. They appear and disappear, and it kind
of feels like they might be going to and from
another dimension. You know, you mentioned the ant hill. Another
kind of interesting way to look at that in the
(07:20):
jungle theory is what is the life form in that
ant colony. Is it an individual ant which has very
little freedom of what they do, or is it the
overall ant hive, the overall ant colony that the single
organism and the cells are the individual ants exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
The whole hive mentality thing is something else that could
be explored, you know, And I'm sure there's other things
that we haven't even thought of yet. Here's an idea
I had. If there was another advanced civilization out there,
it is far more likely that they would be sending
some form of AI controlled probe or drone. Not a
biologic being that requires sleep, gets sick, dies, et cetera,
(08:05):
et cetera, et cetera, has to eat. Also, an AI
system would work twenty four hours a day, seven days
a week. It would continue to learn, it would continue
to send back data. Hell, we still have to this
day data coming back from the Voyager probe that we
send back out in nineteen seventy seven. And that's not
even AI.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's that's an interesting aspect, right.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Yeah, you know, we're on the verge of driverless cars.
Do we really think that advanced civilizations wouldn't have pilot
list saucers? It just makes sense. And that's also consistent
with a lot of the reports of the grays that
we see that seem to have like this bored like
hive mentality and often don't have mouth or other things
that we kind of view as essential biological features.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, that's another interesting aspect there. How do you think
that interdimensional travel would work? And I know that's a
huge thing. I just mean in general, just.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Yeah, from a theoretical UFO point of view, interdimensional is
my happy place as to how that works. Yeah, I
don't know, but I'm a big fan of Andrew Gallimore
and his book Alien Information Theory. And for those of
you not familiar with Andrew Gallimore, he's a neuroscientist from
(09:22):
Oxford who has several books now that theorize that the
experiences people have while under the influence of DMT, which
is the most powerful psychedelic drug known, that those may
not be hallucinatory in nature, but actually more revelatory of
another very real dimension, and dementia gets to be kind
(09:45):
of a fuzzy word here because people use that in
different ways, but sort of like another plane of existence
that's not necessarily physically located elsewhere. And he's got some
really interesting theories and lays out a very sound approach
to how DMT might actually be a portal to what
(10:06):
could be another dimension which, if real, may or may
not be related in some way to the UFO phenomena.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, it's interesting that you're calling that a portal. We're
going to take a quick break here. When we come back,
we're going to talk to Paul about his thoughts on
some of the different government agencies like Arrow and Blue Book.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
Hey folks, Producer Tom here reminding you to make sure
and check out our official Coast to Coast AM YouTube channel.
For many of us, YouTube is our go to place
for audio visual media, and we here at Coast to
Coast are happy to share free hour long excerpts of
Coast to Coast AM with you, our loyal fans and
new listeners. Our YouTube channel offers many different Coast to
Coast AM hour long pieces of audio on numerous topics
(11:01):
including uphology, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, strange creatures, prophecies, and much much more.
There's even a section that includes our most popular uploads,
such as many of the David Plaidi shows on people
disappearing in national parks. To visit or subscribe, just go
to YouTube and type in Coast to Coast am Official,
or you can simply go to the Coast to coastam
(11:23):
dot com website and click on the YouTube icon at
the top. It's the official Coast to Coast AM YouTube channel.
You're gonna love this. Just get on over to Coast
tocoastam dot com and start your free listening now.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
The Coast to Coast AM mobile app is here and
waiting for you right now. With the app, you can
hear classic shows from the past seven years, listen to
the current live show, and get access to the artbel
vault where you can listen to uninterrupted audio. So head
on over to the Coast to coastam dot com website.
We have a handy video guide to help you get
the most out.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Of your mobile app usage.
Speaker 7 (11:55):
All the infos waiting for you now at Coast to
coastam dot com Coast to COASTAM dot com.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Thanks for listening. Keep it here on the iHeartRadio on
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay, we're back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron. So Paul,
we're looking back on history here for a second, and
I remember there was these organizations from the government. There
was Project Grunge, Project sign famously, Project Bluebook that everybody
knows about with twelve thousand cases, and then there was
the Robertson Panel and the Condent Report. Many of these
(12:43):
had direct involvement from your father as the scientist, but
these all pretty much seem, certainly, looking through today's eyes,
to me, more like propaganda pieces than real scientific studies.
Is that what your dad thought? And how do you
feel about those reports?
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Let's start with the general statement that public facing governmental
agencies or departments related to UFOs are typically more pr
exercises to tamp down hysteria as opposed to serious scientific efforts.
Project blue Book started in nineteen forty nine. As as
early as nineteen fifty two no longer had the main
(13:22):
responsibility for investigating UFO sidings. It was dispatched to the
Air Intelligence Service Squadron and so they were really set
there to help reassure the public that the United States
Air Force was on the job, was on the fence,
taking care of us, and we had nothing to worry about.
So it was a frustrating experience from my father, who
(13:42):
was a scientist who wanted to investigate sightings from a
scientific point of view, but from the Air Force's point
of view, as always, is this a threat to national
security and or to the sort of public temperature about
the phenomena.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Okay, so let's flash forward to today and we have
something called air the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. Just
back in March, they came out with a statement and
a report that concluded that AEROL found no evidence that
any USG investigation, academic sponsored research, or official review panel
has confirmed that any sighting of a UAP represented ET technology.
(14:20):
This feels like it could have been right out of
any of those aforementioned reports.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Right, it's out of the same playbook. Nothing to see here, folks,
please disperse, right, And you know, for my money, I
don't care what the US government says or has regarding UFOs,
psychedelics or bitcoin. They are a bad faith, corrupt central actor.
(14:44):
And you know in addition, if you are the Air Force,
let's say Ron, that you and I are the two
top generals in the Air Force. We know where all
the alien bodies are buried, where all the flying saucers
are stored, and we are going to decide right now
if we are to disclose this information. Here's my opinion.
I'll be good in goddamn if I'm going to obey
(15:08):
some pasty faced pencil pusher on Capitol Hill with his
subpoenas for information. All due respect to Danny c and
Steve Basket, Richard Dolan and all the others, but I'm
not here as an Air Force general for compliance. I
am here for full spectrum dominance and I don't care
(15:29):
what the laws are. I don't care what the Constitution is.
I am here on that wall you want me on
that wall to protect us, and I am not going
to give up any Crown Jewel secrets we have about
propulsion technology, etc. My job is not to make the
world a better place or to lessen our dependence on
(15:52):
fossil fuel. My job and your job, Ron, is to
kick ass and that's what we're going to do. So
I'm sorry there will be no disclosure to that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I get that, I really do. I would just think
that given today's climate, they would have at least said
something like, given the credible military pilot accounts and testimonials,
we have found x amount of cases to yet be unexplained,
or something to that effect, instead of the blanket there's
nothing at all to see here. That feels very disingenuous.
(16:22):
Even Project Bluebook said there are five percent that are
unexplained and another huge portion that said there's not enough
data to make a clear conclusion. That's at least better
to me personally, I immediately thought, well, arrows nothing but propaganda.
If they're going to be so blanket about it, what
did you feel?
Speaker 5 (16:40):
Yeah, it's dismissive, it's disinformation. They have secrets we don't know.
We can debate about exactly what level information and bodies
and saucer they may have, but they're not going to
give it up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You know.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Our good friend Steve Bassett, who's been called the evergreen
disclosure optimist, believes it's happening around the corner. But I
just don't see the government giving this information up. And
if we had captured saucers at Roswell in other places,
and we had successfully re engineered the technology. They would
be speaking English in Beijing and Russia by now, because
(17:13):
we're not going to sit on that military superiority of technology.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Absolutely, you know. I know Steve keeps arguing that we're
on the precipice of the Big D disclosure, as he
phrases it. I just really don't see any impotence for
them to disclose, if in fact they have anything to disclose.
I also feel, in our subdivided society, it's hard to
even define disclosure. If another country quote unquote disclosed, how
(17:37):
many Americans would even believe it? Even in today's world.
If a US president quote unquote disclosed without some really serious,
strong evidence, folks in the opposite party wouldn't even believe it.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
This is not your father's disclosure, that's right. We tended
this idea of disclosure as the archetypal event of a
saucer landing on the lawn of the White House, Walter
Cronkite type person narrating it. Okay, now the whole world
believe But you're right, if the Republicans release information, the
Democrats won't believe it, and vice versa. Plus, the government
(18:11):
doesn't have much credibility. So now it's just a very
difficult thing. Even if let's say you and I are
the two air Force generals seeing with an interagency cooperation level,
how do you convince people and how do you prime
the pump for some time? Is this an ongoing process.
It's a very difficult proposition. Even if we did decide okay,
some other countries forcing our hand, or now is the time,
(18:34):
or I've had a change of heart and I just
want to do this, it's a very difficult thing to
do in this age of fake news and disinformation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I agree, And I also feel that a lot of
people seem to think like it's just this simple thing
that they could just cut and dry, say, okay, we
are disclosing, you know, like there's just a statement and
then that's it. But all that would do is open
a giant can of worms for the government. Why did
you lie to us? You ruin my grandfather's life, you
silenced him, you threatened him. What other countries know about this?
(19:06):
How long have you had this? If you have free energy,
why are we using fossil fuels and killing the planet.
I mean, there's to be so much backlash from every
segment of society. I just don't see big D disclosure
happening at all.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Yeah, And most politicians, especially in the US, have a
fairly short term in office, right a few years, maybe
ten twenty years usually of the outside, and this is
a long term thing. It's like the classic problem of
why should I borrow a bunch of money now which
hurts the economy for a long term benefit? Will you
benefit my successor if we get involved in disclosure now,
(19:42):
it's going to suck up all the air in the
room for years. What else will get done? What other
issues will be discussed? I will go down in history
as the disclosure person?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Do I want? That?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Is that the legacy I want? So? It just it
will change the world dramatically overnight, just like a singularity.
And even they know they can't predict how society might
unravel at that time.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You know, I just do not see this in my lifetime.
Maybe in your lifetime you're on the radical life extension therapy,
it might happen in your lifetime, Paul, but I do
not see it happening in my lifetime. Unfortunately. Okay, we're
gonna have to take a little break here, Paul. When
we come back, I want to talk to you about
propulsion systems and the reality is of crossing great distances
(20:29):
of space in the three D world. You're listening to
Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Are you looking for that certain someone who shares your
interests in UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, conspiracy theories in the paranormal, Well,
look no further than paranormal date dot com, a unique
site for like minded people. If you like the senior crowd,
try paranormal date dot com slash seniors to meet like
minded people that are sixty plus. It all depends on
what you prefer. Paranormal Date dot com is great for everyone.
(21:03):
You can also tap into numbers that are sixty plus
at paranormal date dot com slash Seniors. Enjoy your search
and have some fun at paranormal date dot com.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Hey folks, it's easier than ever to become a Coast
to Coast AM insider and have access to past shows
the Artbell Vault with classic audio and interviews and so
much more. And you can listen to the show live
or on demand with your computer or cell phone, and
the audio streams are high quality. And crystal clear. It's
easy to become an insider. Just head on over to
Coast TOCOASTAM dot com the website and you'll find all
(21:41):
the info right there. That's Coast TOCOASTAM dot com, Coast
to Coast AAM dot com.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
Hey, it's the producer Tom and you're right where you
need to be. This is the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Okay, we are back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron
and I'm talking to Paul Heinek. Moving more into the
three D space. Let's talk about this reality for a second.
I think you've looked at some of the different ways
that a craft could travel these vast distances and the
type of propulsion systems that would be required. What have
you found in that area.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Well, there's a lot of different technologies you could use,
and one that I'm recently very interested in is laser propulsion,
and the lead expert in the world here is Philip
Lubin at UCSB, And basically the ideas you use lasers
to photonically accelerate spaceships close to the speed of light,
(22:49):
and then you decelerate them upon the destination that gets
around a lot of the issues that we have with
you know, Vernervon Braun type of rocket propulsion and and
gases in ships, and so I think that is one
of the more viable ways to take a ship from
point A to point B without using a wormhole or
(23:11):
something else even more exotic to transport over those large distances.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Okay, now that's you talking about what we have today.
I've never heard of laser propulsion. That sounds amazing. But
what about you know another form that we just haven't
seen yet that you can imagine a new breakthrough in
the next let's say, one hundred years or so, if
something we haven't even thought about yet. This, of course
has been happening throughout history, where we run across a limitation,
(23:38):
you know, crossing the ocean, and we come up with
a ship, and you know, now we have airplanes, and
now we have airplanes that go the speed of sound,
and you know, you can just imagine that a new
technology of some kind would develop. Can you see that
happening that would make this much more plausible.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
Oh? Absolutely. Let's use the term wormhole, which I think
most people are familiar with as a kind of shorthand
umbrella term for any kind of black swan advance in
propulsion or let's say transportation, because I think even propulsion
kind of limits us to thinking of a ship that
goes really fast. May not be a question of going
(24:15):
very fast. It may be quantum entanglement. It may be
some way that you go from point A to point
B without traversing the distance in between. I think that's
likely how we'll see that kind of qualitative advance as
opposed to just getting someplace much faster. Likely, as you
said before, some type of synthetic entity making that voyage
(24:37):
as opposed to a biological entity. For a biological entity
to voluntarily make that type of trip, it would likely
be some kind of wormhole advanced transportation concept where they're
just here and then they are there in a very
short time.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, it's not necessarily the actual speed of the craft,
with people always point to. It may actually be the
route that they need to take to get there. As
you're suggesting.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Interesting and that that can involve time travel as well.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Well, that's another whole realm.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
That.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Boy, that one's really hard for me to get my
head around. I really struggle with time travel. Some people
speculate that that could be what in fact, the phenomenon
is that that these that are time travelers.
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Michael Masters, he has a very cogent view, and I
think he's presented the best, most convincing argument.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Agreed, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
And one of the things that sort of rings true
about that is that a lot of the sightings and
reports of what we consider aliens seem to be a
potential biological slash transhuman evolution of what humans could be
in the future. I think that's very interesting, It is
very interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I just it's the travel through time part that locks
me up, and I just can't. I can't get my
head around that. I don't know that that's even plausible.
It seems beyond my opacity. Okay, you've been an in
and around this arena most of your life. What have
you seen that you personally feel is the strongest piece
of evidence that makes you think something's happening with regard
(26:14):
to possible contact with non human intelligence. What's the strongest
thing you've You've feel.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Several data points, and one of them you mentioned so
Project Bluebook investigated officially about twelve thousand cases of those,
as you said, five percent, or about seven hundred. They
said were unsolved, and this was an entity that had
an institutional imperative to rubber stamp solved on as many
(26:42):
as they could. In fact, they were once called the
Society for the Explanation of the Uninvestigator. The fact that
they couldn't explain those cases with all the resources they had,
and that five percent figure is somewhat constant even to
this day. That's a really compelling data point. Other things
like Roswell, not the particular details of what happened, but
(27:05):
the fact that the base commander put out an article
to the press, to the international media saying, we have
the remnants of a flying saucer. Now, I suppose they
had the expertise on base to distinguish between balsa wood
and tinfoil and rubber from something more exotic in terms
(27:26):
of material, and they said that they captured something. Now,
they obviously, as you know, walked it back the next day.
But those type of things, as opposed to any particular case,
the accumulated weight of the data and what the government
says about it before saying oops, my bad, I find
those to be some of the most compelling arguments for
(27:49):
the existence of this phenomena.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Well, the acumative weight of the data, to me, is
an excellent phrasing for this problem. And I think it
is in fact the specifics of things like Roswell. That's
the place that I point people to most frequently, because
I feel that if you read the books on Roswell,
(28:12):
and you know Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall and also
Thomas Carey, those three gentlemen have done so much research
and there are so many pieces that fit together like
a perfect puzzle that seems well beyond chance that I
think they could lay out a really good case when
you find out that the guy that ran the funeral
(28:33):
home at three in the morning gets a call and
they need coffins, and you know, all of these little
pieces that line up and fit just exactly right to
fit the narrative that there was an alien craft that
crashed there. To me, supports the idea that this could
be real. Even these deathbed confessions from many of the
(28:54):
Roswell direct witnesses. What's the impetus for an eighty year
old former colonel to do a deathbed confession and then
in that confession he says, I want my granddaughter to
know the truth. I want the world to know this
is real. I haven't said a word about this in
sixty years. That's compelling, and how can people just dismiss
this out of hand?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
Yeah, And I think that with that we can sort
of tease out the nuance of difference between especially what
you call capital D disclosure and what I see is exposure.
Disclosure is we think of it as like, even though
the US government is not one monolithic block, but we
think of disclosure as sort of a coordinated announcement campaign
(29:37):
to release information. You and I both agree that's likely
not going to happen. But exposure is I say, individuals
in the government and experienceers and scientists saying, look, this
is one of the most important issues to face mankind.
(29:58):
We need to make progress on this. So the train
has left the station. If the US government wants to participate,
hey there's a comfy berth in the caboos, but you
are not driving this train.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Absolutely, I agree, and I think many people feel we've
already had disclosure, as many witnesses direct witnesses have come forward,
and those people who've had these direct experiences, they believe
we have disclosure. They have everything they need. You are
listening to beyond contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
The Internet is an extraordinary resource that links our children
to a world of information, experiences, and ideas, and also
can expose them to risk. Teach your children the basic
safety rules of the virtual world. Our children are everything,
Do everything for.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Them before The.
Speaker 8 (31:06):
Art Belvault has classic audio waiting for you.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
Now go to Coast to Coast AM dot com for details.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Take us with you anywhere.
Speaker 8 (31:19):
This is the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We are back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron. We're
talking to Paul Heinek. Paul, you've taken your father's classification system,
the very famous by now close encounters of the first kind,
second kind, third kind, and so forth. But you've expanded
this and created your own classification system that goes more
in depth on this. Can you tell us about that.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Yeah, I think my father would be gratified that people
still use close encounters as a scientific rubric to classify UFOs.
What it does, It speaks to the type of encounter.
What I'm trying to add to this and build upon
(32:16):
that is another system that speaks to the type of
evidence and the strength of that evidence. So I call
it verifiable evidence, and it has three different layers of
how compelling the evidence is and eight different categories. Is
it biological, is it technological? Is it mathematical? As we
(32:37):
talked about before, So that we can start to understand
both the type of the encounter and what we would
consider from a mainstream scientist's point of view as what
constitutes the evidence and how strong it was.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, that's awesome. I hopefully that'll be kind of come
part of a lexicon here and we can all start
using this and then you know, compile that data together
and see which areas are strongest and that kind of thing.
I think it'll be great. Let me ask you another
question here, as as chairman of the advisory board for MUFON,
you have this unique vantage point on UFO sightings and investigations.
(33:13):
Can you share some of the insights you've had on
like maybe the more compelling cases or trends that you've
seen within their database.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
That's a good question. So we no longer have an
advisory board from MUFON, but while there, and also with
my vantage point of knowing the Center FIOFO Studies now
known as the jayon He Center FIOFO.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Studies right right, Chicago, right.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
I've had like this front row seat at seeing all
of this data, and it keeps coming back to the
accumulated weight of the data and patterns. And in the
upology one on one talk that I'll give it Contact
in the Desert, I've broken it down into different eras
because one of the most interesting things that Jacques Vallet
talks about a lot is how people tend to report
(34:00):
UFO sightings in the sort of dressing of the current technology.
First air I call angels and demons, which is in
Biblical times, et cetera. Then you move to the airships
of like the eighteen nineties and we have like these
steampunk balloon type contraptions with little fins and things. Then
(34:20):
you get into the thirties and you have flying saucers
and ray guns and things like that, and then the
UFOs and now UAPs, and you can see these clear
distinctions in how people interpret these and it reminds me
of that old story which I don't think is true
but is interesting of Native Americans seeing conquistador ships on
(34:42):
the horizon or not seeing them because they don't even
have that in their visual vocabulary, and to me this
points to an even sort of deeper idea of we
have a lot of different supernatural phenomena, call it ghosts, DMT, UFOs, bigfoot,
whatever it is, and I and many others feel that
(35:03):
maybe they're not all distinctly separate phenomena, but there may
be some common substrate and that we see things in
ways that either we interpret or they might instantiate in
different ways for different purposes. So even beyond UFOs, I
(35:23):
think there's a connective tissue that may well run through
these different phenomena, and that's one of the things I
want to explore and why I view DMT as especially
interesting because I don't have the ability, i'm sorry to say,
even given my last name, to do a CE five
and summon a flying saucer to my house. But with
(35:43):
using DMT, I am able and others are able to
feel like you're going into that realm and communicating with
entities that I feel have told me are related to
aliens and UFOs.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Wow, the fact that that's the message they gave you,
that it is related is fascinating on its own. That's
a whole show right there. Let's go down this real quick.
If you've done extensive experiences with virtual and augmented reality
technologies because you do everything and artificial intelligence, do you
see any potential applications for these immersive technologies.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
Let's look at it from this point of view. I
know you're familiar with the Drake equation, which was created
to be a starting point formula for how many planets
there might be in our galaxy that could support life
as we know it, and it turns out to be
millions and millions of millions, right, Well, then you have
the Fermie hypothesis. If there are so many planets that
(36:42):
are capable of bearing life, why haven't we seen more
evidence of that that rises to the level of mainstream
science acceptance. Then you have the transcension hypothesis that states
that another civilization, let's say on a distant planet, doesn't
need to come here to get gold or water or
(37:05):
conduct trade. They can actually go into a hyper advanced
virtual reality world and go inside and find everything they
need there, from raw materials to organic matter to transcendental enlightenment,
and they have no need to find or discover or
(37:28):
create some exotic propulsion or transportation technology to go all
the Way to Earth in the Milky Way galaxy when
they have everything right there, everything meaning things that we
can't even comprehend or imagine. So I like that sort
of progression or sort of a composition of the Drake equation,
(37:50):
the Fermi hypothesis, and let's say VR virtual reality on steroids,
because virtual reality is as we know it is us humans,
the analog creatures, putting on you know, awkward goggles and
going into that digital universe, whereas augmented reality is the converse.
It's we humans remaining in our analog world and having
(38:14):
digital overlays come here. So the transcention hypothesis is that
they have a super advanced virtual reality capability and they
can just go to innerspace, which is as deep and
infinite as we consider our universe today.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Let me ask you this another question about AI and
the advent of you know, photoshop, and now we can
create these videos so easily. Do you think that's going
to make it more difficult? Obviously it is for people
who have seen something or try to document it to
be believed, because now you can't trust anything.
Speaker 5 (38:48):
This is the age of deep fakery. And you know,
just yesterday open Ai released chat GPT four. Oh, not
oh as the number, but oh for optimized. And I
saw a demo this morning of voice activated AIS talking
to each other in a conversational manner, and they have
(39:09):
the ability through your phone or computer to see the
room and make judgments and you know, and talk about
things in the room for contact the desert. I've already
composed an AI song to start off the Legends Penel,
and you can do text to speech, text to video.
I've created dozens of images to show on my presentations
(39:30):
using AI and with this ability to create things that
will be photo real. You know, my father used to
say that, you know, the old expression was that a
photo is worth a thousand words. Already by the point
of his time, it was kind of the reverse that
a thousand photos might be worth the word. But now
what can you believe as real or not? And then
(39:52):
we get into the mind bending ideas of what actually
is real, you know, because it's all all boils down
to electrical impulses in our brain. Right brain doesn't know
that a dream isn't real until you wake up and
you realize in fact it was a dream. Same for
a DMT experience, until you come out of that unless
it's a lucid dream, which is a fascinating idea as well,
(40:13):
that you are aware that you're dreaming, but your brain
doesn't know the difference.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Each one of these things we could talk about for
about four hours each, I think, so we'll have to
do it again on an eight hour episode. We're going
to have to stop there for today, though, Paul, But
thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate
all your insights. It's all fascinating stuff. Thanks for listening
to Beyond Contact. We'll be back next week with an
(40:38):
all new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on
Twitter and Instagram at at CID Underscore Captain Ron. Stay
connected by checking out Contact intheesert dot com. Stay open
minded and rational as we explore the unknown right here
on Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
am Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost Dam
Paranormal podcast network. We offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for episode one of
Beyond Contact.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
What's Captain Wrong?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:43):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today
I'll be speaking with Paul Heinek. Paul is an incredible
guy and we could go down any of one hundred
paths with Paul, from being a professor to working on
huge movies, to radical life extension therapy, cryptocurrency, member of mensa,
on and on and on on top of everything else.
He's a hell of a great guy. But for our purposes,
(01:41):
we're going to keep it to his extensive knowledge regarding
UFOs and his work in the UFO community. How are
you doing today, brother, excellent ron, Happy to be here.
I really appreciate it. We're kicking the show off. Let
me just start out, just briefly, if you would, about
growing up in the j allen Heineck household, where the
subject of UFOs was a normal thing for you at
the dinner table, unlike the rest of us.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Yeah, you know, however you grow up is normal to
you until you look back at it over time, whether
it was good or bad. And our household was great.
I was very lucky. I don't know, as you know,
life without UFOs. We had flying Saucer ornaments on the
Christmastery and Travis Walton over for dinner, so it was
it was always present. And the one thing I like
(02:24):
to say is that my father, you know, UFOs were
kind of a side hustle late in life for him.
He was at his core an astronomer, and that's really
how we saw him as a professor and astronomer who
happened to be getting more and more interested in flying
saucers and UFOs and abductions later on. But it was
fascinating because he really inculcated in all five of his
(02:48):
children a love of science and the scientific method, and
of being healthily skeptical but open to the sort of
mysteries lying at the fringes of the known universe.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, I think that's exactly what I want to get
to that. I think it's well known that your dad,
as a scientist, came into this world as a hard
skeptic and debunker of sorts. However, through the years of
looking at the subject, he seemed to have morphed into, basically,
to be honest, exactly what my position today is, which
is there is enough here in the data to warrant
(03:22):
more scientific investigation. So how would you describe that arc
of him changing his viewpoint on this topic.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Yeah, I think you said exactly the way I see it.
You know, a funny thing happened on the way to
his debunking parade that the sort of annoying way of
the accumulated data made him feel just like you said,
that it merited more study. He didn't become a believer,
because that's not really a word that scientists traffic. And
but over time, this annoying phenomena just kept gnawing at
(03:53):
him and pulling on his coattails and made him realize that, yeah,
something is happening here. That doesn't mean, as you know, Ron,
that it's necessarily extraterrestrial or any other particular theory, but
that there is something here which he and a Jacques
Vallet often called meta terrestrial, and I think meaning that
(04:13):
there's something or some things that come from beyond our
current understanding of our terrestrial technology.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did he have a position regarding what he thought the
phenomenon might be, like was he more in the nuts
and bolt spacecraft across distance, or was he more in
the inner dimensional camp or or was it something else?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Even Yeah, and again you framed that really well, because
he was very comfortable as a scientist saying, hey, the
data points to there being a bona fide phenomena here,
but the origin or source of it is beyond really
the knowledge base of a scientist. So he would theorize
that the extraterrestrial hypothesis could well be part of it.
(04:54):
But as Jacques once said, if that's all it turns
out to be, it'll be really disappointing. One of the
things that my father would say is if you liken
the visible universe to the size of the continent US,
Earth is less than a speck of dust in Kansas.
So even though we've been beaming out episodes of I
(05:14):
Love Lucy Low these many decades, we're so small and
insignificant in the cosmic scale that just finding us is
non trivial. And then if they're getting in a spaceship
and enduring the rigors of solar radiation, etc. And coming
all this way, why wouldn't they be a little bit
(05:35):
more overt Okay, maybe it's the prime directive, and maybe
they're manipulating and cross breeding, but it didn't really seem
to make a lot of sense. So he and Jacques
and many others lean towards the interdimensional theory, which I
find to be very compelling, because if it's another dimension,
they're kind of here adjacent and may in some way
(05:56):
be related to us, which would explain how they know
about us and why they would care.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, it's interesting you said. The way you phrased that.
It reminded me immediately of the jungle theory. Which is
you have two scientists walking through the jungle in Africa
and they come across a giant ant hill and there's
millions of ants on there, and they pick out ten
of them and they put them in a jar. They
may even put a little number on their back or
a tag or some sort of identifying thing, and they
(06:22):
put them back and the rest of the ants are
completely unaware that we were even there. And these ants
are tagged and marked and we track them. You know,
it could be something is similar to that where we
can't even understand that plane, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
That's really a good way to put it. You know,
if entities are coming here from another time, another planet,
another dimension, they likely have technological capabilities so far beyond
ours as to we would consider that to be magic,
and so they could blink in and out and do
what they want. The interdimensional theory to me, also kind
(06:59):
of jibes with some of the reports of sightings of
the crafts that seem to do things that defy our
laws of physics, or like my father would call the
cheshire Cat phenomena. They appear and disappear, and it kind
of feels like they might be going to and from
another dimension. You know, you mentioned the ant hill. Another
kind of interesting way to look at that in the
(07:20):
jungle theory is what is the life form in that
ant colony. Is it an individual ant which has very
little freedom of what they do, or is it the
overall ant hive, the overall ant colony that the single
organism and the cells are the individual ants exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
The whole hive mentality thing is something else that could
be explored, you know, And I'm sure there's other things
that we haven't even thought of yet. Here's an idea
I had. If there was another advanced civilization out there,
it is far more likely that they would be sending
some form of AI controlled probe or drone. Not a
biologic being that requires sleep, gets sick, dies, et cetera,
(08:05):
et cetera, et cetera, has to eat. Also, an AI
system would work twenty four hours a day, seven days
a week. It would continue to learn, it would continue
to send back data. Hell, we still have to this
day data coming back from the Voyager probe that we
send back out in nineteen seventy seven. And that's not
even AI.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's that's an interesting aspect, right.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Yeah, you know, we're on the verge of driverless cars.
Do we really think that advanced civilizations wouldn't have pilot
list saucers? It just makes sense. And that's also consistent
with a lot of the reports of the grays that
we see that seem to have like this bored like
hive mentality and often don't have mouth or other things
that we kind of view as essential biological features.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, that's another interesting aspect there. How do you think
that interdimensional travel would work? And I know that's a
huge thing. I just mean in general, just.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Yeah, from a theoretical UFO point of view, interdimensional is
my happy place as to how that works. Yeah, I
don't know, but I'm a big fan of Andrew Gallimore
and his book Alien Information Theory. And for those of
you not familiar with Andrew Gallimore, he's a neuroscientist from
(09:22):
Oxford who has several books now that theorize that the
experiences people have while under the influence of DMT, which
is the most powerful psychedelic drug known, that those may
not be hallucinatory in nature, but actually more revelatory of
another very real dimension, and dementia gets to be kind
(09:45):
of a fuzzy word here because people use that in
different ways, but sort of like another plane of existence
that's not necessarily physically located elsewhere. And he's got some
really interesting theories and lays out a very sound approach
to how DMT might actually be a portal to what
(10:06):
could be another dimension which, if real, may or may
not be related in some way to the UFO phenomena.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, it's interesting that you're calling that a portal. We're
going to take a quick break here. When we come back,
we're going to talk to Paul about his thoughts on
some of the different government agencies like Arrow and Blue Book.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
Hey folks, Producer Tom here reminding you to make sure
and check out our official Coast to Coast AM YouTube channel.
For many of us, YouTube is our go to place
for audio visual media, and we here at Coast to
Coast are happy to share free hour long excerpts of
Coast to Coast AM with you, our loyal fans and
new listeners. Our YouTube channel offers many different Coast to
Coast AM hour long pieces of audio on numerous topics
(11:01):
including uphology, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, strange creatures, prophecies, and much much more.
There's even a section that includes our most popular uploads,
such as many of the David Plaidi shows on people
disappearing in national parks. To visit or subscribe, just go
to YouTube and type in Coast to Coast am Official,
or you can simply go to the Coast to coastam
(11:23):
dot com website and click on the YouTube icon at
the top. It's the official Coast to Coast AM YouTube channel.
You're gonna love this. Just get on over to Coast
tocoastam dot com and start your free listening now.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
The Coast to Coast AM mobile app is here and
waiting for you right now. With the app, you can
hear classic shows from the past seven years, listen to
the current live show, and get access to the artbel
vault where you can listen to uninterrupted audio. So head
on over to the Coast to coastam dot com website.
We have a handy video guide to help you get
the most out.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Of your mobile app usage.
Speaker 7 (11:55):
All the infos waiting for you now at Coast to
coastam dot com Coast to COASTAM dot com.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Thanks for listening. Keep it here on the iHeartRadio on
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay, we're back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron. So Paul,
we're looking back on history here for a second, and
I remember there was these organizations from the government. There
was Project Grunge, Project sign famously, Project Bluebook that everybody
knows about with twelve thousand cases, and then there was
the Robertson Panel and the Condent Report. Many of these
(12:43):
had direct involvement from your father as the scientist, but
these all pretty much seem, certainly, looking through today's eyes,
to me, more like propaganda pieces than real scientific studies.
Is that what your dad thought? And how do you
feel about those reports?
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Let's start with the general statement that public facing governmental
agencies or departments related to UFOs are typically more pr
exercises to tamp down hysteria as opposed to serious scientific efforts.
Project blue Book started in nineteen forty nine. As as
early as nineteen fifty two no longer had the main
(13:22):
responsibility for investigating UFO sidings. It was dispatched to the
Air Intelligence Service Squadron and so they were really set
there to help reassure the public that the United States
Air Force was on the job, was on the fence,
taking care of us, and we had nothing to worry about.
So it was a frustrating experience from my father, who
(13:42):
was a scientist who wanted to investigate sightings from a
scientific point of view, but from the Air Force's point
of view, as always, is this a threat to national
security and or to the sort of public temperature about
the phenomena.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Okay, so let's flash forward to today and we have
something called air the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. Just
back in March, they came out with a statement and
a report that concluded that AEROL found no evidence that
any USG investigation, academic sponsored research, or official review panel
has confirmed that any sighting of a UAP represented ET technology.
(14:20):
This feels like it could have been right out of
any of those aforementioned reports.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Right, it's out of the same playbook. Nothing to see here, folks,
please disperse, right, And you know, for my money, I
don't care what the US government says or has regarding UFOs,
psychedelics or bitcoin. They are a bad faith, corrupt central actor.
(14:44):
And you know in addition, if you are the Air Force,
let's say Ron, that you and I are the two
top generals in the Air Force. We know where all
the alien bodies are buried, where all the flying saucers
are stored, and we are going to decide right now
if we are to disclose this information. Here's my opinion.
I'll be good in goddamn if I'm going to obey
(15:08):
some pasty faced pencil pusher on Capitol Hill with his
subpoenas for information. All due respect to Danny c and
Steve Basket, Richard Dolan and all the others, but I'm
not here as an Air Force general for compliance. I
am here for full spectrum dominance and I don't care
(15:29):
what the laws are. I don't care what the Constitution is.
I am here on that wall you want me on
that wall to protect us, and I am not going
to give up any Crown Jewel secrets we have about
propulsion technology, etc. My job is not to make the
world a better place or to lessen our dependence on
(15:52):
fossil fuel. My job and your job, Ron, is to
kick ass and that's what we're going to do. So
I'm sorry there will be no disclosure to that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I get that, I really do. I would just think
that given today's climate, they would have at least said
something like, given the credible military pilot accounts and testimonials,
we have found x amount of cases to yet be unexplained,
or something to that effect, instead of the blanket there's
nothing at all to see here. That feels very disingenuous.
(16:22):
Even Project Bluebook said there are five percent that are
unexplained and another huge portion that said there's not enough
data to make a clear conclusion. That's at least better
to me personally, I immediately thought, well, arrows nothing but propaganda.
If they're going to be so blanket about it, what
did you feel?
Speaker 5 (16:40):
Yeah, it's dismissive, it's disinformation. They have secrets we don't know.
We can debate about exactly what level information and bodies
and saucer they may have, but they're not going to
give it up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You know.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Our good friend Steve Bassett, who's been called the evergreen
disclosure optimist, believes it's happening around the corner. But I
just don't see the government giving this information up. And
if we had captured saucers at Roswell in other places,
and we had successfully re engineered the technology. They would
be speaking English in Beijing and Russia by now, because
(17:13):
we're not going to sit on that military superiority of technology.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Absolutely, you know. I know Steve keeps arguing that we're
on the precipice of the Big D disclosure, as he
phrases it. I just really don't see any impotence for
them to disclose, if in fact they have anything to disclose.
I also feel, in our subdivided society, it's hard to
even define disclosure. If another country quote unquote disclosed, how
(17:37):
many Americans would even believe it? Even in today's world.
If a US president quote unquote disclosed without some really serious,
strong evidence, folks in the opposite party wouldn't even believe it.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
This is not your father's disclosure, that's right. We tended
this idea of disclosure as the archetypal event of a
saucer landing on the lawn of the White House, Walter
Cronkite type person narrating it. Okay, now the whole world
believe But you're right, if the Republicans release information, the
Democrats won't believe it, and vice versa. Plus, the government
(18:11):
doesn't have much credibility. So now it's just a very
difficult thing. Even if let's say you and I are
the two air Force generals seeing with an interagency cooperation level,
how do you convince people and how do you prime
the pump for some time? Is this an ongoing process.
It's a very difficult proposition. Even if we did decide okay,
some other countries forcing our hand, or now is the time,
(18:34):
or I've had a change of heart and I just
want to do this, it's a very difficult thing to
do in this age of fake news and disinformation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I agree, And I also feel that a lot of
people seem to think like it's just this simple thing
that they could just cut and dry, say, okay, we
are disclosing, you know, like there's just a statement and
then that's it. But all that would do is open
a giant can of worms for the government. Why did
you lie to us? You ruin my grandfather's life, you
silenced him, you threatened him. What other countries know about this?
(19:06):
How long have you had this? If you have free energy,
why are we using fossil fuels and killing the planet.
I mean, there's to be so much backlash from every
segment of society. I just don't see big D disclosure
happening at all.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Yeah, And most politicians, especially in the US, have a
fairly short term in office, right a few years, maybe
ten twenty years usually of the outside, and this is
a long term thing. It's like the classic problem of
why should I borrow a bunch of money now which
hurts the economy for a long term benefit? Will you
benefit my successor if we get involved in disclosure now,
(19:42):
it's going to suck up all the air in the
room for years. What else will get done? What other
issues will be discussed? I will go down in history
as the disclosure person?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Do I want? That?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Is that the legacy I want? So? It just it
will change the world dramatically overnight, just like a singularity.
And even they know they can't predict how society might
unravel at that time.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You know, I just do not see this in my lifetime.
Maybe in your lifetime you're on the radical life extension therapy,
it might happen in your lifetime, Paul, but I do
not see it happening in my lifetime. Unfortunately. Okay, we're
gonna have to take a little break here, Paul. When
we come back, I want to talk to you about
propulsion systems and the reality is of crossing great distances
(20:29):
of space in the three D world. You're listening to
Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Are you looking for that certain someone who shares your
interests in UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, conspiracy theories in the paranormal, Well,
look no further than paranormal date dot com, a unique
site for like minded people. If you like the senior crowd,
try paranormal date dot com slash seniors to meet like
minded people that are sixty plus. It all depends on
what you prefer. Paranormal Date dot com is great for everyone.
(21:03):
You can also tap into numbers that are sixty plus
at paranormal date dot com slash Seniors. Enjoy your search
and have some fun at paranormal date dot com.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Hey folks, it's easier than ever to become a Coast
to Coast AM insider and have access to past shows
the Artbell Vault with classic audio and interviews and so
much more. And you can listen to the show live
or on demand with your computer or cell phone, and
the audio streams are high quality. And crystal clear. It's
easy to become an insider. Just head on over to
Coast TOCOASTAM dot com the website and you'll find all
(21:41):
the info right there. That's Coast TOCOASTAM dot com, Coast
to Coast AAM dot com.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
Hey, it's the producer Tom and you're right where you
need to be. This is the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Okay, we are back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron
and I'm talking to Paul Heinek. Moving more into the
three D space. Let's talk about this reality for a second.
I think you've looked at some of the different ways
that a craft could travel these vast distances and the
type of propulsion systems that would be required. What have
you found in that area.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Well, there's a lot of different technologies you could use,
and one that I'm recently very interested in is laser propulsion,
and the lead expert in the world here is Philip
Lubin at UCSB, And basically the ideas you use lasers
to photonically accelerate spaceships close to the speed of light,
(22:49):
and then you decelerate them upon the destination that gets
around a lot of the issues that we have with
you know, Vernervon Braun type of rocket propulsion and and
gases in ships, and so I think that is one
of the more viable ways to take a ship from
point A to point B without using a wormhole or
(23:11):
something else even more exotic to transport over those large distances.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Okay, now that's you talking about what we have today.
I've never heard of laser propulsion. That sounds amazing. But
what about you know another form that we just haven't
seen yet that you can imagine a new breakthrough in
the next let's say, one hundred years or so, if
something we haven't even thought about yet. This, of course
has been happening throughout history, where we run across a limitation,
(23:38):
you know, crossing the ocean, and we come up with
a ship, and you know, now we have airplanes, and
now we have airplanes that go the speed of sound,
and you know, you can just imagine that a new
technology of some kind would develop. Can you see that
happening that would make this much more plausible.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
Oh? Absolutely. Let's use the term wormhole, which I think
most people are familiar with as a kind of shorthand
umbrella term for any kind of black swan advance in
propulsion or let's say transportation, because I think even propulsion
kind of limits us to thinking of a ship that
goes really fast. May not be a question of going
(24:15):
very fast. It may be quantum entanglement. It may be
some way that you go from point A to point
B without traversing the distance in between. I think that's
likely how we'll see that kind of qualitative advance as
opposed to just getting someplace much faster. Likely, as you
said before, some type of synthetic entity making that voyage
(24:37):
as opposed to a biological entity. For a biological entity
to voluntarily make that type of trip, it would likely
be some kind of wormhole advanced transportation concept where they're
just here and then they are there in a very
short time.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, it's not necessarily the actual speed of the craft,
with people always point to. It may actually be the
route that they need to take to get there. As
you're suggesting.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Interesting and that that can involve time travel as well.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Well, that's another whole realm.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
That.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Boy, that one's really hard for me to get my
head around. I really struggle with time travel. Some people
speculate that that could be what in fact, the phenomenon
is that that these that are time travelers.
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Michael Masters, he has a very cogent view, and I
think he's presented the best, most convincing argument.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Agreed, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
And one of the things that sort of rings true
about that is that a lot of the sightings and
reports of what we consider aliens seem to be a
potential biological slash transhuman evolution of what humans could be
in the future. I think that's very interesting, It is
very interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I just it's the travel through time part that locks
me up, and I just can't. I can't get my
head around that. I don't know that that's even plausible.
It seems beyond my opacity. Okay, you've been an in
and around this arena most of your life. What have
you seen that you personally feel is the strongest piece
of evidence that makes you think something's happening with regard
(26:14):
to possible contact with non human intelligence. What's the strongest
thing you've You've feel.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Several data points, and one of them you mentioned so
Project Bluebook investigated officially about twelve thousand cases of those,
as you said, five percent, or about seven hundred. They
said were unsolved, and this was an entity that had
an institutional imperative to rubber stamp solved on as many
(26:42):
as they could. In fact, they were once called the
Society for the Explanation of the Uninvestigator. The fact that
they couldn't explain those cases with all the resources they had,
and that five percent figure is somewhat constant even to
this day. That's a really compelling data point. Other things
like Roswell, not the particular details of what happened, but
(27:05):
the fact that the base commander put out an article
to the press, to the international media saying, we have
the remnants of a flying saucer. Now, I suppose they
had the expertise on base to distinguish between balsa wood
and tinfoil and rubber from something more exotic in terms
(27:26):
of material, and they said that they captured something. Now,
they obviously, as you know, walked it back the next day.
But those type of things, as opposed to any particular case,
the accumulated weight of the data and what the government
says about it before saying oops, my bad, I find
those to be some of the most compelling arguments for
(27:49):
the existence of this phenomena.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Well, the acumative weight of the data, to me, is
an excellent phrasing for this problem. And I think it
is in fact the specifics of things like Roswell. That's
the place that I point people to most frequently, because
I feel that if you read the books on Roswell,
(28:12):
and you know Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall and also
Thomas Carey, those three gentlemen have done so much research
and there are so many pieces that fit together like
a perfect puzzle that seems well beyond chance that I
think they could lay out a really good case when
you find out that the guy that ran the funeral
(28:33):
home at three in the morning gets a call and
they need coffins, and you know, all of these little
pieces that line up and fit just exactly right to
fit the narrative that there was an alien craft that
crashed there. To me, supports the idea that this could
be real. Even these deathbed confessions from many of the
(28:54):
Roswell direct witnesses. What's the impetus for an eighty year
old former colonel to do a deathbed confession and then
in that confession he says, I want my granddaughter to
know the truth. I want the world to know this
is real. I haven't said a word about this in
sixty years. That's compelling, and how can people just dismiss
this out of hand?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
Yeah, And I think that with that we can sort
of tease out the nuance of difference between especially what
you call capital D disclosure and what I see is exposure.
Disclosure is we think of it as like, even though
the US government is not one monolithic block, but we
think of disclosure as sort of a coordinated announcement campaign
(29:37):
to release information. You and I both agree that's likely
not going to happen. But exposure is I say, individuals
in the government and experienceers and scientists saying, look, this
is one of the most important issues to face mankind.
(29:58):
We need to make progress on this. So the train
has left the station. If the US government wants to participate,
hey there's a comfy berth in the caboos, but you
are not driving this train.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Absolutely, I agree, and I think many people feel we've
already had disclosure, as many witnesses direct witnesses have come forward,
and those people who've had these direct experiences, they believe
we have disclosure. They have everything they need. You are
listening to beyond contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
The Internet is an extraordinary resource that links our children
to a world of information, experiences, and ideas, and also
can expose them to risk. Teach your children the basic
safety rules of the virtual world. Our children are everything,
Do everything for.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Them before The.
Speaker 8 (31:06):
Art Belvault has classic audio waiting for you.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
Now go to Coast to Coast AM dot com for details.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Take us with you anywhere.
Speaker 8 (31:19):
This is the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We are back on Beyond Contact with Captain Ron. We're
talking to Paul Heinek. Paul, you've taken your father's classification system,
the very famous by now close encounters of the first kind,
second kind, third kind, and so forth. But you've expanded
this and created your own classification system that goes more
in depth on this. Can you tell us about that.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Yeah, I think my father would be gratified that people
still use close encounters as a scientific rubric to classify UFOs.
What it does, It speaks to the type of encounter.
What I'm trying to add to this and build upon
(32:16):
that is another system that speaks to the type of
evidence and the strength of that evidence. So I call
it verifiable evidence, and it has three different layers of
how compelling the evidence is and eight different categories. Is
it biological, is it technological? Is it mathematical? As we
(32:37):
talked about before, So that we can start to understand
both the type of the encounter and what we would
consider from a mainstream scientist's point of view as what
constitutes the evidence and how strong it was.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, that's awesome. I hopefully that'll be kind of come
part of a lexicon here and we can all start
using this and then you know, compile that data together
and see which areas are strongest and that kind of thing.
I think it'll be great. Let me ask you another
question here, as as chairman of the advisory board for MUFON,
you have this unique vantage point on UFO sightings and investigations.
(33:13):
Can you share some of the insights you've had on
like maybe the more compelling cases or trends that you've
seen within their database.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
That's a good question. So we no longer have an
advisory board from MUFON, but while there, and also with
my vantage point of knowing the Center FIOFO Studies now
known as the jayon He Center FIOFO.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Studies right right, Chicago, right.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
I've had like this front row seat at seeing all
of this data, and it keeps coming back to the
accumulated weight of the data and patterns. And in the
upology one on one talk that I'll give it Contact
in the Desert, I've broken it down into different eras
because one of the most interesting things that Jacques Vallet
talks about a lot is how people tend to report
(34:00):
UFO sightings in the sort of dressing of the current technology.
First air I call angels and demons, which is in
Biblical times, et cetera. Then you move to the airships
of like the eighteen nineties and we have like these
steampunk balloon type contraptions with little fins and things. Then
(34:20):
you get into the thirties and you have flying saucers
and ray guns and things like that, and then the
UFOs and now UAPs, and you can see these clear
distinctions in how people interpret these and it reminds me
of that old story which I don't think is true
but is interesting of Native Americans seeing conquistador ships on
(34:42):
the horizon or not seeing them because they don't even
have that in their visual vocabulary, and to me this
points to an even sort of deeper idea of we
have a lot of different supernatural phenomena, call it ghosts, DMT, UFOs, bigfoot,
whatever it is, and I and many others feel that
(35:03):
maybe they're not all distinctly separate phenomena, but there may
be some common substrate and that we see things in
ways that either we interpret or they might instantiate in
different ways for different purposes. So even beyond UFOs, I
(35:23):
think there's a connective tissue that may well run through
these different phenomena, and that's one of the things I
want to explore and why I view DMT as especially
interesting because I don't have the ability, i'm sorry to say,
even given my last name, to do a CE five
and summon a flying saucer to my house. But with
(35:43):
using DMT, I am able and others are able to
feel like you're going into that realm and communicating with
entities that I feel have told me are related to
aliens and UFOs.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Wow, the fact that that's the message they gave you,
that it is related is fascinating on its own. That's
a whole show right there. Let's go down this real quick.
If you've done extensive experiences with virtual and augmented reality
technologies because you do everything and artificial intelligence, do you
see any potential applications for these immersive technologies.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
Let's look at it from this point of view. I
know you're familiar with the Drake equation, which was created
to be a starting point formula for how many planets
there might be in our galaxy that could support life
as we know it, and it turns out to be
millions and millions of millions, right, Well, then you have
the Fermie hypothesis. If there are so many planets that
(36:42):
are capable of bearing life, why haven't we seen more
evidence of that that rises to the level of mainstream
science acceptance. Then you have the transcension hypothesis that states
that another civilization, let's say on a distant planet, doesn't
need to come here to get gold or water or
(37:05):
conduct trade. They can actually go into a hyper advanced
virtual reality world and go inside and find everything they
need there, from raw materials to organic matter to transcendental enlightenment,
and they have no need to find or discover or
(37:28):
create some exotic propulsion or transportation technology to go all
the Way to Earth in the Milky Way galaxy when
they have everything right there, everything meaning things that we
can't even comprehend or imagine. So I like that sort
of progression or sort of a composition of the Drake equation,
(37:50):
the Fermi hypothesis, and let's say VR virtual reality on steroids,
because virtual reality is as we know it is us humans,
the analog creatures, putting on you know, awkward goggles and
going into that digital universe, whereas augmented reality is the converse.
It's we humans remaining in our analog world and having
(38:14):
digital overlays come here. So the transcention hypothesis is that
they have a super advanced virtual reality capability and they
can just go to innerspace, which is as deep and
infinite as we consider our universe today.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Let me ask you this another question about AI and
the advent of you know, photoshop, and now we can
create these videos so easily. Do you think that's going
to make it more difficult? Obviously it is for people
who have seen something or try to document it to
be believed, because now you can't trust anything.
Speaker 5 (38:48):
This is the age of deep fakery. And you know,
just yesterday open Ai released chat GPT four. Oh, not
oh as the number, but oh for optimized. And I
saw a demo this morning of voice activated AIS talking
to each other in a conversational manner, and they have
(39:09):
the ability through your phone or computer to see the
room and make judgments and you know, and talk about
things in the room for contact the desert. I've already
composed an AI song to start off the Legends Penel,
and you can do text to speech, text to video.
I've created dozens of images to show on my presentations
(39:30):
using AI and with this ability to create things that
will be photo real. You know, my father used to
say that, you know, the old expression was that a
photo is worth a thousand words. Already by the point
of his time, it was kind of the reverse that
a thousand photos might be worth the word. But now
what can you believe as real or not? And then
(39:52):
we get into the mind bending ideas of what actually
is real, you know, because it's all all boils down
to electrical impulses in our brain. Right brain doesn't know
that a dream isn't real until you wake up and
you realize in fact it was a dream. Same for
a DMT experience, until you come out of that unless
it's a lucid dream, which is a fascinating idea as well,
(40:13):
that you are aware that you're dreaming, but your brain
doesn't know the difference.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Each one of these things we could talk about for
about four hours each, I think, so we'll have to
do it again on an eight hour episode. We're going
to have to stop there for today, though, Paul, But
thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate
all your insights. It's all fascinating stuff. Thanks for listening
to Beyond Contact. We'll be back next week with an
(40:38):
all new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on
Twitter and Instagram at at CID Underscore Captain Ron. Stay
connected by checking out Contact intheesert dot com. Stay open
minded and rational as we explore the unknown right here
on Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
am Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
The Best of Coast to Coast AM News
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.