January 9, 2025 • 35 mins
Jennie is connecting with psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher to ask the most important things any divorced person should consider if they want to put themselves back into the dating scene.
How can you not make the same mistakes? How do you know when you're ready to date?
Dr. Hillary explains why it's so important to create your own new path post-divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is
all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you
can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth,
and I know that the path to love isn't always
an easy road to travel, a theme that has come
up on this podcast a lot has been about self
(00:39):
reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce.
All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard
look at things, and sometimes the best way to make
sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I
want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible
(00:59):
psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships,
to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced
people should know or be asking themselves when getting back
out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello
doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank
(01:22):
you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you.
We all need you. As you already probably know, this
podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right
in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent,
but they haven't given up on the idea of finding
(01:42):
their person. So I wanted to chat about all the
things or questions that divorced people that are ready to
date again should be thinking about or asking themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Love it sound good, I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from
the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're
asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance
to say the following, which is that in my work,
I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this
is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is
amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and
(02:33):
one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm
and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and
sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to
both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is
(02:55):
gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience,
and so having an opportunity to think of it like
that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal
any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well,
how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind,
(03:20):
and soul are going through something traumatic and profound.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I love that. I love that because it gives people
the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma,
like you said, and I need to be kind to
myself in this process, take care of myself.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the
quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the
season of post marriage, who you are, who you want
to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and
(03:59):
kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship
that you in some cases get to co create with
your ex and in some cases have to create on
your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it
gives an opportunity to think about what do I need
to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize
(04:21):
to help myself through. What are the different phases that
I'm going through, and what do I need in each
one of them to sort of help myself develop into
the person I want to be in this new season
of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get
into that but I want to talk about accountability. I
think that how do we take our own accountability for
the things that happen in the marriage and not just
point the finger, not just blame the other party.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There
is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations,
the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about
them and hold them up and feel them in a
safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's
(05:13):
not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for
a part of the process to be anger. That's how
we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it,
we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like
a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it.
We decide what it's done to us and what we
(05:35):
want it to do to us moving forward. So I
could talk a lot more about that, but I want
to really be specific about reserving a space for all
of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's
a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is
also really important to say what about me? What about me?
(05:55):
Because two things can be true. At the same time,
you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt,
mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating,
But there's some way in which we co created, even
if the quote only way we co created is that
we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate,
(06:19):
we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening.
I'm staying in it until you do right and so
being able to recognize what our part is in co
creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not
repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy
(06:40):
because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera,
the understandable premise might be this is on him. I
don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim.
And in many ways that's a portion of that is true.
But what I just said is critical, or the healing
is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy.
We need to figure out what we co created, what
(07:02):
we in, what our input was to make this dynamic
occur over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start
pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
It's really important to allow for both that there's something
really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both,
allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated,
angry and hurt, and we get to say it to
save for others. But we have to also figure out
how do we contribute. We have to or our healing
(07:38):
is not going to be complete and some version of
the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough
romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos,
it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
How do we know when it's time to date again?
I mean, should people try dating even if they don't
feel ready.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic
where I feel like it's so important for people to
practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many
cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain
amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should
get out there.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Or you got to get back out there, get on
the horse, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care
of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There
is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is
what I do. There is no here's the answer. The
answer is within you and your first guess at it
may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's
important that I get out there. It's important that I
(08:49):
start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right.
It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking,
or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it
again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match.
We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people
and known quantities, and we try it right. And if
(09:13):
the sort of edict that like right, If you go
out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain
and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with
other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something
to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow
yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to
(09:34):
start carving your own path. And carving your own path
doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps
getting better. And better and better and more successful in
me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh,
that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make
me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me
feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able
(09:58):
to realize that insight and go back and by again.
So my answer is look within and take take your
best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And
if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor
your ability to go back and shift it. It's so
much of what we don't do in a marriage that
(10:19):
doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind
of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so
hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they
come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good
idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when
you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or
during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like
trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like,
can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what
my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right,
you just think and focus and orientation is off, either
(11:08):
intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point,
it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so
not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to
my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a
little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna,
you know, sort of hike through it and make my
(11:29):
best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits
or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either
stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think
at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort
of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure,
(11:51):
but this is my best guess about what feels right
to me, and I'm here for myself if I find
out that's not true.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had
you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking
about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma,
and I feel in my body like that, I feel
tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so,
it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave
it any of these thoughts when I was going through it.
(12:29):
I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have,
been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it,
because I have such a passion for women going through
divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and
that I think would be so useful and grounding. And
even what you're saying that you did ten years ago,
none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception
(12:56):
and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really
internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had
you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah,
this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is
my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it.
As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing,
(13:19):
I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around
and making a different choice. It's not that had you
had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things.
That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not
avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of
the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still
(13:39):
going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma.
So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait
a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down,
let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from
this mission. It's not working for me right, and so
I just want to hold that space for women out
there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take
(14:02):
away the pain and the journey and the tendency to
do all the things you're talking about. It just gives
a language to talk about it to ourselves so we
aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're
going in a place we don't belong.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me,
I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick
the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No,
I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I
say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust
your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what
feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it
(14:51):
feel that way. And what it was going to say
with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's
so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself,
tell me much more, like why? What? What about it?
Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What
makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so
completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try
(15:16):
to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try
to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as
a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it
turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think
about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of
sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you
(15:36):
were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity
betray all of that, and even if you weren't that
the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again,
and trusting yourself to show up in a way that
is steeped in self care is scary, and so having
a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing
that to be so. So, my goal for a person
(16:00):
sitting in front of me who had that going on
wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to
get really to build a relationship with that truth, right,
to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift,
does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right?
And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable
(16:20):
in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper,
you know, we start thinking about does this bump up
against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued,
not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships,
and do we need to look at that intersection and
start to work to reduce the hold that you know,
(16:44):
my goal as a clinician is to help people access
connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and
it is most people's goal. And so if it comes
to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from
those things, then we look at that, but that initial
feeling should be paradoxically completely honored.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions
about things. I think For me personally, after it happened,
I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want
to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself
because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like
I couldn't trust myself.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because
I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's
sort of like, I don't want to get close to it.
I don't want to feel it. I don't want to
feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the
self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we
did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection
(17:48):
about where we are now all of that. And again,
I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that
feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part,
but rather just get a lit a little bit closer
to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that?
Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings
what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I
think is going to occur? You know if I just
(18:10):
take one step closer to it. And what I'm about
to say is super practical, but I think useful, which
is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings,
setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally,
I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes
and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or
talking with a friend or just thinking about something that
(18:33):
feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently
urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when
I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if
it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the
purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled.
We get the feeling and our immediate response is to
not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural
(18:55):
pathway we travel over and over and over and over again.
We want to interrupt that so we have more choices
for other things over time, and even if we interrupt
it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it,
we start to change our brain chemistry around it.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point.
What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so
that we don't make the same mistakes?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right
for us, how do we know how to not do
that again?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky,
but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience.
I suppose that is not totally the question, because that
question is a pretty big setup for failure at the
smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again?
(19:56):
And then we're at dinner and you say something to
impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of
a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right,
And you go out with someone and you over text
them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You
(20:16):
failed again. And so the question is not how do
I not do the same thing? The question is how
do I get How do I stay close to my
process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to
me and how it's going, and where my blind spots
are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of
my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step
(20:38):
in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and
go back and try again. Right. So the idea that
we can just and I know you were saying exactly this,
but the idea that we can just flip from like
doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky.
We're flawed humans.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we
show up in ways we don't feel good about and like,
oh I did it again, I did that thing where
I snap at my partner.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
So the question is just how can I track myself?
How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way.
When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having
a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going
out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person?
How does he make me feel? How do I feel
when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested
(21:29):
and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a
sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation,
or does it seem like I'm not being listened to,
or like just getting curious about how you feel in
scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about
how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot,
(21:49):
or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I
was so triggered once we said good night, all I
could think about was in texting or calling, right, just
noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict
people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any
of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt
and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like,
(22:12):
oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I
feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me.
It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if
this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right,
what's that about? What is it connected to? How do
I feel my body when I think about it? Are
there resources tools I can put in place to help
(22:33):
manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a
friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I
do when I notice something is not serving me well?
And so that is how we mobilize a path that
is different is staying present and in it and close
(22:54):
to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict
that we have to show up a certain or a
different way.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
When is it the right time to start talking to
the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre
that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship,
or even if we have kids, Like that's the second
I would think, the second thing you would talk to
them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those
(23:33):
kinds of things like how when do I talk about
my ex? When do I talk about my kids that
I have?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a
little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I
say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you
know it feels right and there's a sharing and well
maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust
(24:01):
yourself if that feels right, and if you end up
regretting it. That's an example of what we were just
talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having
said that, I think in this arena it's almost like
phi like private health information, you know what I mean?
I think about phi, right, You're not like sharing other
(24:22):
people's health information without intention, and so think of it
as kind of your private health information, right, And you
wouldn't give it to just anyone. It's a sacred part
of who you are. And it's fragile, particularly post divorce.
In the year or two afterwards, like ten years afterwards,
it's less so you might be able to just make
(24:43):
a joke about it casually to an acquaintance you just met, right,
But in those first couple of years it's really sensitive
and fragile. And treating it with care I think matters
to the healing process. There's like a gravity and a
sombreness to it that relates to that trauma. We were
talking about. Not using it to garner sympathy or to
fill in idle moments on a date, right, not giving
(25:08):
up more of yourself too soon, you know, establishing a
connection and a sense of who this other person is
and determining if your fragile health information is you know,
sort of feels right. Sharing And I was about to
use the word safe, and look, it's tricky. We've met
(25:30):
someone two times, five times, ten times, do we really
know for sure if they can promise like a robust
sort of period of safety. I don't know, we all
know plenty of stories where it seems to be true
and it ends up not being true. So I would
just say, proceed with care, continue to notice how do
(25:51):
I feel with this person? How do I share around them?
How do they seem to communicate notions around their own feelings?
What is their emotional intelligence level? Look like, right, are slow?
You know, start flow? You don't have to give the
whole story up. You might say that's that's a painful
(26:12):
period and I'm still processing it, and like, you know,
over time, perhaps they'll share more. Right if your body
is still telling you I'm ready here? And kids, I
think I would look at it sort of two ways.
I think it's factually important to sort of say like
I have a you know, a ten, eight and five
year old, and you know, the light of my lives.
(26:34):
I have them halftime and like huge part of who
I am and how I move through the world. No,
that's true for you. I think it's important to have
that truth be proudly conveyed and implicit in that is
that if you're interested in getting to know me, that's
that's part of who I am right. That's important. So
you know, read out folks that are like, I don't
(26:55):
want to be with someone that has kids that little,
or don't want to be with some of those three
kids versus one. Right, whatever it is, I would embody
that part of your identity as a mother pretty quickly
to support that part of the process in terms of
your relationship with your kids, your relationship with your ads,
how you co parent. Again, you might give like a
(27:15):
macro like it's a work in progress. It can be
tricky and it can be amazing and you know, perhaps
more information you know, to come in the future. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I love these answers you're giving because there are things
that people can actually say and if you're listening, I
want to do this and I'm not even going through
a divorce. I want to write these sentences that these
responses down and just like have a cheat sheet in
my pocket on my day and be like one second,
let me just check. Oh yeah, it's complicated, and I'm my.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Clients do that all the time, right down the sentences.
That's that's one of the ways I love to work. Yeah, yes,
I think it's nice to have something prepared ay and
to not feel pressure to share more than you were
ready and to really own and embody the truth without
sharing too much, which is like, it's tricky right now,
tricky season, and perhaps over time I'll share more, you know,
(28:10):
and that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
That's enough.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
That's enough. You don't own more, and it reflects your truth.
They're not shying away from it. You don't have to
say you're co parenting beautifully and over the divorce if
you're not, and you're not. But you also don't have
to share and explain everything you can own. I'm in
the messy middle. I know it, I accept it. I'm
taking it on and like more to come.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So good. Okay, So say you have kids, right? I
love though that you should pretty early on let them
know your situation. You know, I have two kids and
two dogs or whatever, because you don't want that to
bite you in the ass if you haven't told them.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's right, that's right, and you own that. You own
it's a big part of your life if it's true.
Is with that you don't just say that but meaning
the latter part, but just owning I'm like an amazing
part of who I am. I'm a mom with two kids.
They're five and seven and what I got going on,
And that's it, right, that's so good. God.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
How much of a say should your kids get about
you dating again? That's hard because it just I'm sure
it depends on like the age of the kids. I
know when I started dating, I had young and I
had it a sixteen year old who was very opinionated
about every move I made.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yep. So I'm going to answer this in like gradients,
because you're right, it really depends on the age of
the kids. So if you have little kids and like
I'm defining, I'm eliminating like babies and like really small.
But you know, if you're like in the like four
year old, so like I don't know, like ten year old,
to the extent possible, you're not updating your children on
(29:53):
your dating life. There's really no need for them to know.
In my clinical opinion, I would only introduce the concept
if and when someone important came into your life and
you planned on introducing them, which is a whole other
topic we can talk about, and I have a whole
approach about what that would look like. But there if
(30:14):
they come to know you're out on a Thursday with
Joe for whatever reason, I would just frame it as
a friend and leave it there. There's no reason to
burden young kids with adult information unless it's relevant and important.
And your date with Joe on Thursday is not relevant
and important unless Joe becomes your person, right and you
(30:35):
have a much more deliberate conversation, which, as I said,
we can talk about. So I'm saying a version of like,
keep it from them. There's no reason for your little
kids to know that you're dating your older kids, who
might even proactively ask the question or just come to
know because they are conscious beings.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Right, that's been.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Going out, right. I think it's really important to have
a conversation with your kids, and not on the night
you're going out with Joe, Like, how do you feel
about this? I'm leaving in thirty minutes that like, if
they're talking about it, or it's in the atmosphere that
you sit down with them and go like huh, Like tricky,
You're thinking about the idea that I might start dating,
(31:17):
And you're right, and that has to feel like really weird,
really really weird and hard. I know it feels weird
and hard to me, so I can't imagine what it
feels like to you. I want to sit here and
tell me everything you're thinking about it. I want to
hear it and just open up a space. I mean,
if you have a kiddo who will talk, right, I'll
(31:38):
if you don't. But if you have a kid who
will talk, great, And I don't like it. I want
you and Daddy to get back together. I think it's
so lame. I think it's so gross. I want you
to leave me, to go out. Like all the things
that you just validate. You don't try to change their mind,
you know, try to justify it. But I'm here all
the time. It's just two hours you lean in. I
(32:00):
feel so bad, like no matter how often I'm here
with you, it just feels so bad. It feels so awful.
Of course, you wish your mom and dad were together, Like,
I get it, get it, and this is a reminder
that we're not. I get it.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So I feel so emotional because I can just like
remember all of this and I'm trying to navigate it
the best I could without these amazing tools.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yes, it's so difficult. But for the kids, and this
is not age dependant. All they're thinking all the time,
especially at the beginning, is I just wish my mom
and dad were together. And we are a version of
over it because we're the adults and we've thought about it,
and we've been ideally intentional about it, and we're working
(32:45):
to move through it. We have decided, or at least
have been told, that we're not going to be with
that person. Our kids, they have no say, and they
don't get to move on like we do. They don't
get to move on. It's a chronic trama that their
parents aren't together. And our parental edict is to like
(33:07):
imagine or facilitate our kids not suffering, you know, and
so we just want to see But they seem okay,
Like I'm not going to bring up that this might
be painful for them, because they seem fine in many ways,
they are fine and functional and thriving. But they're never
fine that their mom and dad aren't together. And it's
never not a good time to say I get it.
(33:29):
I know that's still on your mind, even if you're
ten years out. You know that you're a new person,
right that you're still I know this still might bump
up against this wound your dad. That's painful. It's never
okay from your standpoint. I get it, and so the
(33:49):
messaging in that moment about your date with you know,
Joe coming up, is not about the date with Joe
and trying to explain that it doesn't mean a lot.
It's I know this matters, that this is going to
start happening, and I know it matters because you're in
pain and I see it and I feel it and
I can't fix it. But I want you to have
(34:12):
a space to talk about it. I want you to
know that I love you, your father loves you. What
I'm about to say, if this is all true, there
are many complex scenarios where it's not. But and we
are still a family because we'll always be your mom
and dad will always co parents, and we'll always all
have that connection. Having said that, it's not the same,
and I know that's what this brings up.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, let's take a pause right here. I want to
continue this conversation because there's so much more that I
have to ask you. If you want to call us
for advice one eight four four four I do pod.
That's eight four four four four three six seven six ' three,
or you can email us at idopod at iHeartRadio dot com,
(34:55):
follow us on Instagram and TikTok at id Part two pod,
and be sure to check out all the information in
our show notes. Make sure to rate us and review us.
I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
love is the main objective
I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is
all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you
can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth,
and I know that the path to love isn't always
an easy road to travel, a theme that has come
up on this podcast a lot has been about self
(00:39):
reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce.
All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard
look at things, and sometimes the best way to make
sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I
want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible
(00:59):
psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships,
to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced
people should know or be asking themselves when getting back
out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello
doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank
(01:22):
you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you.
We all need you. As you already probably know, this
podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right
in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent,
but they haven't given up on the idea of finding
(01:42):
their person. So I wanted to chat about all the
things or questions that divorced people that are ready to
date again should be thinking about or asking themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Love it sound good, I don't.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from
the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're
asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance
to say the following, which is that in my work,
I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this
is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is
amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and
(02:33):
one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm
and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and
sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to
both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is
(02:55):
gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience,
and so having an opportunity to think of it like
that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal
any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well,
how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind,
(03:20):
and soul are going through something traumatic and profound.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I love that. I love that because it gives people
the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma,
like you said, and I need to be kind to
myself in this process, take care of myself.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the
quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the
season of post marriage, who you are, who you want
to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and
(03:59):
kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship
that you in some cases get to co create with
your ex and in some cases have to create on
your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it
gives an opportunity to think about what do I need
to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize
(04:21):
to help myself through. What are the different phases that
I'm going through, and what do I need in each
one of them to sort of help myself develop into
the person I want to be in this new season
of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get
into that but I want to talk about accountability. I
think that how do we take our own accountability for
the things that happen in the marriage and not just
point the finger, not just blame the other party.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There
is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations,
the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about
them and hold them up and feel them in a
safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's
(05:13):
not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for
a part of the process to be anger. That's how
we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it,
we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like
a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it.
We decide what it's done to us and what we
(05:35):
want it to do to us moving forward. So I
could talk a lot more about that, but I want
to really be specific about reserving a space for all
of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's
a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is
also really important to say what about me? What about me?
(05:55):
Because two things can be true. At the same time,
you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt,
mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating,
But there's some way in which we co created, even
if the quote only way we co created is that
we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate,
(06:19):
we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening.
I'm staying in it until you do right and so
being able to recognize what our part is in co
creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not
repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy
(06:40):
because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera,
the understandable premise might be this is on him. I
don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim.
And in many ways that's a portion of that is true.
But what I just said is critical, or the healing
is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy.
We need to figure out what we co created, what
(07:02):
we in, what our input was to make this dynamic
occur over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start
pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
It's really important to allow for both that there's something
really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both,
allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated,
angry and hurt, and we get to say it to
save for others. But we have to also figure out
how do we contribute. We have to or our healing
(07:38):
is not going to be complete and some version of
the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough
romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos,
it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
How do we know when it's time to date again?
I mean, should people try dating even if they don't
feel ready.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic
where I feel like it's so important for people to
practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many
cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain
amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should
get out there.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Or you got to get back out there, get on
the horse, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care
of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There
is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is
what I do. There is no here's the answer. The
answer is within you and your first guess at it
may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's
important that I get out there. It's important that I
(08:49):
start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right.
It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking,
or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it
again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match.
We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people
and known quantities, and we try it right. And if
(09:13):
the sort of edict that like right, If you go
out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain
and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with
other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something
to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow
yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to
(09:34):
start carving your own path. And carving your own path
doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps
getting better. And better and better and more successful in
me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh,
that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make
me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me
feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able
(09:58):
to realize that insight and go back and by again.
So my answer is look within and take take your
best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And
if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor
your ability to go back and shift it. It's so
much of what we don't do in a marriage that
(10:19):
doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind
of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so
hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they
come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good
idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when
you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or
during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like
trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like,
can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what
my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right,
you just think and focus and orientation is off, either
(11:08):
intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point,
it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so
not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to
my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a
little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna,
you know, sort of hike through it and make my
(11:29):
best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits
or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either
stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think
at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort
of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure,
(11:51):
but this is my best guess about what feels right
to me, and I'm here for myself if I find
out that's not true.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had
you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking
about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma,
and I feel in my body like that, I feel
tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so,
it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave
it any of these thoughts when I was going through it.
(12:29):
I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have,
been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it,
because I have such a passion for women going through
divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and
that I think would be so useful and grounding. And
even what you're saying that you did ten years ago,
none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception
(12:56):
and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really
internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had
you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah,
this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is
my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it.
As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing,
(13:19):
I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around
and making a different choice. It's not that had you
had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things.
That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not
avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of
the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still
(13:39):
going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma.
So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait
a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down,
let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from
this mission. It's not working for me right, and so
I just want to hold that space for women out
there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take
(14:02):
away the pain and the journey and the tendency to
do all the things you're talking about. It just gives
a language to talk about it to ourselves so we
aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're
going in a place we don't belong.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me,
I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick
the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No,
I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I
say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust
your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what
feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it
(14:51):
feel that way. And what it was going to say
with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's
so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself,
tell me much more, like why? What? What about it?
Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What
makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so
completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try
(15:16):
to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try
to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as
a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it
turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think
about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of
sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you
(15:36):
were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity
betray all of that, and even if you weren't that
the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again,
and trusting yourself to show up in a way that
is steeped in self care is scary, and so having
a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing
that to be so. So, my goal for a person
(16:00):
sitting in front of me who had that going on
wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to
get really to build a relationship with that truth, right,
to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift,
does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right?
And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable
(16:20):
in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper,
you know, we start thinking about does this bump up
against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued,
not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships,
and do we need to look at that intersection and
start to work to reduce the hold that you know,
(16:44):
my goal as a clinician is to help people access
connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and
it is most people's goal. And so if it comes
to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from
those things, then we look at that, but that initial
feeling should be paradoxically completely honored.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions
about things. I think For me personally, after it happened,
I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want
to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself
because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like
I couldn't trust myself.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because
I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's
sort of like, I don't want to get close to it.
I don't want to feel it. I don't want to
feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the
self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we
did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection
(17:48):
about where we are now all of that. And again,
I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that
feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part,
but rather just get a lit a little bit closer
to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that?
Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings
what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I
think is going to occur? You know if I just
(18:10):
take one step closer to it. And what I'm about
to say is super practical, but I think useful, which
is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings,
setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally,
I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes
and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or
talking with a friend or just thinking about something that
(18:33):
feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently
urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when
I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if
it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the
purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled.
We get the feeling and our immediate response is to
not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural
(18:55):
pathway we travel over and over and over and over again.
We want to interrupt that so we have more choices
for other things over time, and even if we interrupt
it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it,
we start to change our brain chemistry around it.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point.
What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so
that we don't make the same mistakes?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right
for us, how do we know how to not do
that again?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky,
but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience.
I suppose that is not totally the question, because that
question is a pretty big setup for failure at the
smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again?
(19:56):
And then we're at dinner and you say something to
impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of
a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right,
And you go out with someone and you over text
them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You
(20:16):
failed again. And so the question is not how do
I not do the same thing? The question is how
do I get How do I stay close to my
process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to
me and how it's going, and where my blind spots
are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of
my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step
(20:38):
in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and
go back and try again. Right. So the idea that
we can just and I know you were saying exactly this,
but the idea that we can just flip from like
doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky.
We're flawed humans.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we
show up in ways we don't feel good about and like,
oh I did it again, I did that thing where
I snap at my partner.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
So the question is just how can I track myself?
How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way.
When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having
a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going
out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person?
How does he make me feel? How do I feel
when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested
(21:29):
and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a
sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation,
or does it seem like I'm not being listened to,
or like just getting curious about how you feel in
scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about
how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot,
(21:49):
or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I
was so triggered once we said good night, all I
could think about was in texting or calling, right, just
noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict
people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any
of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt
and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like,
(22:12):
oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I
feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me.
It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if
this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right,
what's that about? What is it connected to? How do
I feel my body when I think about it? Are
there resources tools I can put in place to help
(22:33):
manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a
friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I
do when I notice something is not serving me well?
And so that is how we mobilize a path that
is different is staying present and in it and close
(22:54):
to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict
that we have to show up a certain or a
different way.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
When is it the right time to start talking to
the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre
that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship,
or even if we have kids, Like that's the second
I would think, the second thing you would talk to
them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those
(23:33):
kinds of things like how when do I talk about
my ex? When do I talk about my kids that
I have?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a
little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I
say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you
know it feels right and there's a sharing and well
maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust
(24:01):
yourself if that feels right, and if you end up
regretting it. That's an example of what we were just
talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having
said that, I think in this arena it's almost like
phi like private health information, you know what I mean?
I think about phi, right, You're not like sharing other
(24:22):
people's health information without intention, and so think of it
as kind of your private health information, right, And you
wouldn't give it to just anyone. It's a sacred part
of who you are. And it's fragile, particularly post divorce.
In the year or two afterwards, like ten years afterwards,
it's less so you might be able to just make
(24:43):
a joke about it casually to an acquaintance you just met, right,
But in those first couple of years it's really sensitive
and fragile. And treating it with care I think matters
to the healing process. There's like a gravity and a
sombreness to it that relates to that trauma. We were
talking about. Not using it to garner sympathy or to
fill in idle moments on a date, right, not giving
(25:08):
up more of yourself too soon, you know, establishing a
connection and a sense of who this other person is
and determining if your fragile health information is you know,
sort of feels right. Sharing And I was about to
use the word safe, and look, it's tricky. We've met
(25:30):
someone two times, five times, ten times, do we really
know for sure if they can promise like a robust
sort of period of safety. I don't know, we all
know plenty of stories where it seems to be true
and it ends up not being true. So I would
just say, proceed with care, continue to notice how do
(25:51):
I feel with this person? How do I share around them?
How do they seem to communicate notions around their own feelings?
What is their emotional intelligence level? Look like, right, are slow?
You know, start flow? You don't have to give the
whole story up. You might say that's that's a painful
(26:12):
period and I'm still processing it, and like, you know,
over time, perhaps they'll share more. Right if your body
is still telling you I'm ready here? And kids, I
think I would look at it sort of two ways.
I think it's factually important to sort of say like
I have a you know, a ten, eight and five
year old, and you know, the light of my lives.
(26:34):
I have them halftime and like huge part of who
I am and how I move through the world. No,
that's true for you. I think it's important to have
that truth be proudly conveyed and implicit in that is
that if you're interested in getting to know me, that's
that's part of who I am right. That's important. So
you know, read out folks that are like, I don't
(26:55):
want to be with someone that has kids that little,
or don't want to be with some of those three
kids versus one. Right, whatever it is, I would embody
that part of your identity as a mother pretty quickly
to support that part of the process in terms of
your relationship with your kids, your relationship with your ads,
how you co parent. Again, you might give like a
(27:15):
macro like it's a work in progress. It can be
tricky and it can be amazing and you know, perhaps
more information you know, to come in the future. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I love these answers you're giving because there are things
that people can actually say and if you're listening, I
want to do this and I'm not even going through
a divorce. I want to write these sentences that these
responses down and just like have a cheat sheet in
my pocket on my day and be like one second,
let me just check. Oh yeah, it's complicated, and I'm my.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Clients do that all the time, right down the sentences.
That's that's one of the ways I love to work. Yeah, yes,
I think it's nice to have something prepared ay and
to not feel pressure to share more than you were
ready and to really own and embody the truth without
sharing too much, which is like, it's tricky right now,
tricky season, and perhaps over time I'll share more, you know,
(28:10):
and that's it.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
That's enough.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
That's enough. You don't own more, and it reflects your truth.
They're not shying away from it. You don't have to
say you're co parenting beautifully and over the divorce if
you're not, and you're not. But you also don't have
to share and explain everything you can own. I'm in
the messy middle. I know it, I accept it. I'm
taking it on and like more to come.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So good. Okay, So say you have kids, right? I
love though that you should pretty early on let them
know your situation. You know, I have two kids and
two dogs or whatever, because you don't want that to
bite you in the ass if you haven't told them.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's right, that's right, and you own that. You own
it's a big part of your life if it's true.
Is with that you don't just say that but meaning
the latter part, but just owning I'm like an amazing
part of who I am. I'm a mom with two kids.
They're five and seven and what I got going on,
And that's it, right, that's so good. God.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
How much of a say should your kids get about
you dating again? That's hard because it just I'm sure
it depends on like the age of the kids. I
know when I started dating, I had young and I
had it a sixteen year old who was very opinionated
about every move I made.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yep. So I'm going to answer this in like gradients,
because you're right, it really depends on the age of
the kids. So if you have little kids and like
I'm defining, I'm eliminating like babies and like really small.
But you know, if you're like in the like four
year old, so like I don't know, like ten year old,
to the extent possible, you're not updating your children on
(29:53):
your dating life. There's really no need for them to know.
In my clinical opinion, I would only introduce the concept
if and when someone important came into your life and
you planned on introducing them, which is a whole other
topic we can talk about, and I have a whole
approach about what that would look like. But there if
(30:14):
they come to know you're out on a Thursday with
Joe for whatever reason, I would just frame it as
a friend and leave it there. There's no reason to
burden young kids with adult information unless it's relevant and important.
And your date with Joe on Thursday is not relevant
and important unless Joe becomes your person, right and you
(30:35):
have a much more deliberate conversation, which, as I said,
we can talk about. So I'm saying a version of like,
keep it from them. There's no reason for your little
kids to know that you're dating your older kids, who
might even proactively ask the question or just come to
know because they are conscious beings.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Right, that's been.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Going out, right. I think it's really important to have
a conversation with your kids, and not on the night
you're going out with Joe, Like, how do you feel
about this? I'm leaving in thirty minutes that like, if
they're talking about it, or it's in the atmosphere that
you sit down with them and go like huh, Like tricky,
You're thinking about the idea that I might start dating,
(31:17):
And you're right, and that has to feel like really weird,
really really weird and hard. I know it feels weird
and hard to me, so I can't imagine what it
feels like to you. I want to sit here and
tell me everything you're thinking about it. I want to
hear it and just open up a space. I mean,
if you have a kiddo who will talk, right, I'll
(31:38):
if you don't. But if you have a kid who
will talk, great, And I don't like it. I want
you and Daddy to get back together. I think it's
so lame. I think it's so gross. I want you
to leave me, to go out. Like all the things
that you just validate. You don't try to change their mind,
you know, try to justify it. But I'm here all
the time. It's just two hours you lean in. I
(32:00):
feel so bad, like no matter how often I'm here
with you, it just feels so bad. It feels so awful.
Of course, you wish your mom and dad were together, Like,
I get it, get it, and this is a reminder
that we're not. I get it.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So I feel so emotional because I can just like
remember all of this and I'm trying to navigate it
the best I could without these amazing tools.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yes, it's so difficult. But for the kids, and this
is not age dependant. All they're thinking all the time,
especially at the beginning, is I just wish my mom
and dad were together. And we are a version of
over it because we're the adults and we've thought about it,
and we've been ideally intentional about it, and we're working
(32:45):
to move through it. We have decided, or at least
have been told, that we're not going to be with
that person. Our kids, they have no say, and they
don't get to move on like we do. They don't
get to move on. It's a chronic trama that their
parents aren't together. And our parental edict is to like
(33:07):
imagine or facilitate our kids not suffering, you know, and
so we just want to see But they seem okay,
Like I'm not going to bring up that this might
be painful for them, because they seem fine in many ways,
they are fine and functional and thriving. But they're never
fine that their mom and dad aren't together. And it's
never not a good time to say I get it.
(33:29):
I know that's still on your mind, even if you're
ten years out. You know that you're a new person,
right that you're still I know this still might bump
up against this wound your dad. That's painful. It's never
okay from your standpoint. I get it, and so the
(33:49):
messaging in that moment about your date with you know,
Joe coming up, is not about the date with Joe
and trying to explain that it doesn't mean a lot.
It's I know this matters, that this is going to
start happening, and I know it matters because you're in
pain and I see it and I feel it and
I can't fix it. But I want you to have
(34:12):
a space to talk about it. I want you to
know that I love you, your father loves you. What
I'm about to say, if this is all true, there
are many complex scenarios where it's not. But and we
are still a family because we'll always be your mom
and dad will always co parents, and we'll always all
have that connection. Having said that, it's not the same,
and I know that's what this brings up.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, let's take a pause right here. I want to
continue this conversation because there's so much more that I
have to ask you. If you want to call us
for advice one eight four four four I do pod.
That's eight four four four four three six seven six ' three,
or you can email us at idopod at iHeartRadio dot com,
(34:55):
follow us on Instagram and TikTok at id Part two pod,
and be sure to check out all the information in
our show notes. Make sure to rate us and review us.
I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
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